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bax
August 28, 2008, 11:26 PM
Thanks to SleepyFans, we get early RAWs again this week :33 So get your fix HERE (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37772)!!

Go ahead and dicuss the chapter. Finally, Kira is showing his stuff :nuts

kkck
August 29, 2008, 12:38 AM
Nice chapter for kira, with shikais like that who needs bankai lol. I am glad fight only took one chapter, it showed how much kira pawns plus it means one fight less until we get to see hisagi's shikai.
next chapter is probably going to be about ikkaku, hopefully he will show us something new. I was thinking about how ikkaku's shikai has to forms so maybe his bankai also has two forms, that would make his fight worth watching.
Damn kubo for creating so much anticipation for hisagi's fight XD.

EvolutionIX
August 29, 2008, 12:42 AM
Yeah. Good chapter. I'm also glad it took one chapter, maybe Kubo realised that there are a lot of fights this time?

I hope Ikkaku's bankai has another form as well. Sigh, his shikai seems soooo weak, it always gets beaten. Also, his bankai is only power...and hes shown no tricks with it. Hope theres something up his sleeve.

Onomatopoeia
August 29, 2008, 12:42 AM
Anyone else notice that Kubo has a real problem with scaling? Those Telephone poles were HUGE. Two to three times as wide as Kira. Seriously I thought they were pillars or something.

Shiro-kun
August 29, 2008, 01:49 AM
Kira defeated him easily it seems, well two to go until the really big fights start.

Yannnnnnnnn
August 29, 2008, 03:07 AM
when grim and his buddies came first in the real world, all the shinigami were close to loose : I know they were "power limitated" at the begining of the fight...but 3 of them needed bankai to win (hitsu., ikkaku and renji). the only exception was matsumoto.
Here it just look like it's really easy to win against this faccion...

But we need to see more serious fight !

I just hope we will have more of hisagi (just one chap for him will not be enough for me...)

fremeer
August 29, 2008, 03:08 AM
what an awesome shikai. Make the bow their head through weight increase and then execute them, easily the coolest shikai in terms absolute badarseness

Darek Khort
August 29, 2008, 04:49 AM
I see what Kira was doing behind the scene at the end. He probably continously touched Abirama's neck so that it would weigh a huge amount, then placed his sword like it is shown. The weight would mean his head falls extremely fast to the ground, chopped clean with the sword beneath.

The way to defeat Abirama was kinda obvious. I was hoping for a bit more so kind of disappointed with that...but Kira's speech as his squad's motto of "Despair" was absolutely awesome.

I've been thinking. I would have thought that Ikkaku would have been the first battle we would witness since we've already seen all that he has. Yet it seems as though he will be last (since it's been a while since we've seen him appear, and Hisagi's battle with Findor has progressed a bit).
What would ruin Ikkaku is if he was forced to use bankai when Yumichika and Kira only had to use shikai (and chances are Hisagi will only use shikai as well).

What I think will happen next chapter is Hisagi will fight Findor and beat him, and we will see the beginning of Ikkaku's fight. What I would think will happen is that Ikkaku will beat his opponent with his shikai...and then a much stronger opponent begins to attack him. Perhaps even Barragan. I can see it;
Barragan: "Darn these useless fools! Gotta do everything yerself these days"

Ikkaku gets attacked by Barragan. He is forced to release his bankai. SS is surprised. Ikkaku loses, and just before the killing blow (which Ikkaku readily takes), someone saves him.

hossice
August 29, 2008, 05:47 AM
i liked the colors for abirama. so as of now we have 3 flowers shown. 3rds,6ths, and 11ths. despair, noble reasoning, and fight. though we have seen 10ths squads but we dont know what it means.

i like how kubo came up w/ that idea for the sword and the head. i didn't see that comming.

gold349
August 29, 2008, 06:53 AM
Its major let down to how Bragan said he was sending "dragons" to squash ants, they have been way to over confident and didn't have anything of real power. So far they have all been "mouth", talked a lot nothing to back it, even there transformed status, other than the colours were whack IMO.

Deathgod75
August 29, 2008, 07:14 AM
Its major let down to how Bragan said he was sending "dragons" to squash ants, they have been way to over confident and didn't have anything of real power. So far they have all been "mouth", talked a lot nothing to back it, even there transformed status, other than the colours were whack IMO.

well most likely what happened was that they all supressed their reaiatsu that it made them seem weak.

weixiaobao
August 29, 2008, 07:42 AM
wow.. aizen is really arrogant by not informed his followers of the know abilities of the zanpakuto..

If these guys coming in fighting with these knowledges (aizen probably didn't know all the abilities) at least they have a better winning chance..

Tsukisama
August 29, 2008, 07:52 AM
The good points of this chapter were the color cover of Ichigo and the characterization of Izuru. Although I would have preferred to see more on the cover than just a very bishie-looking Ichigo, it was well-drawn and nicely done.

Izuru, like the others of the pillar guardians (well not so much Ikkaku), has not received much characterization before now. Most people (myself included) just pictured him as a very loyal and committed person to the point of blindly following orders. Now we see why he is so committed. He has a strong philosophical connection to the ideals of his division. He believes that his zanpakutou (and probably he himself by extension) are the perfect embodiment of his division's ideals, more easily explaining his willingness to be the perfect subordinate to Gin and his strong resentment to Gin's betrayal.

Izuru's speech on the philosophy of the 3rd division also adds a new dimension to his character. I see him now as the official emo shinigami. Very depressing and emotional about battle, I expect this emo aspect of Kira to take more precedence in his character now than the emphasis on loyalty, which is necessary; since Izuru no longer has a superior, the characterization as the blindly loyal subordinate has less impact and meaning, and thus his character needed this new aspect to stay relevant. (If Momo ever shows up again, I wonder what type of new characterization she will receive, or will she just stay an Aizen-obsessed lunatic? :blink)
[hr]

Its major let down to how Bragan said he was sending "dragons" to squash ants, they have been way to over confident and didn't have anything of real power. So far they have all been "mouth", talked a lot nothing to back it, even there transformed status, other than the colours were whack IMO.

I realize how disappointing it may seem, but honestly were you really expecting that much from these fraccion? They are being sent up against lieutenant-level shinigami, most of whom were/are not likely to show bankai. Given that we knew that these were kind of filler battles and the pillar guardians would most likely win, I would say that the battles are living up to most people's expectations.

hajialibaig
August 29, 2008, 08:19 AM
Even Grimmjow's fraccion put up a better fight...everything power-level related in bleach is majorly screwed up

ReiGun
August 29, 2008, 08:48 AM
Now that's how it's done Kira. Right now, Ichimaru is in that fire bubble giving you a thumbs up. lol

But seriously, great chapter. Especially the characterization on Kira. It adds so much to his appeal for me, and makes me interested to see what happens with him in the future.

kkck
August 29, 2008, 09:24 AM
Fraccion are supose to be numeros that espada pick as their servants/helpers, so I dont think there is a rule that says stronger espada have stronger fraccion. If we went like that, primera espada would have espada level fraccions lol.

ThaGreatOne
August 29, 2008, 09:53 AM
You know this is one of the few times when the speech is kinda better than the battle. Not to say the whole battle was weak because at least some spells were used and it only took one chapter but Kira's speech or the shikai/explanation we already knew about but the "warriors don't beg for their lives" line pretty much made the chapter for me. I expected to see Gin's reaction after that but I guess that happens later

Yea i hope ikkaku's shikai has some tricks because it doesn't look that powerful compared to the shikais seen already. His bankai was powerful but he just swung it around then smashed the guy....hoping for something new here

Seta Soujirou
August 29, 2008, 10:07 AM
4 dragons to crush 4 ants? my foot...its more like the other way round for Barragan's faccion...

Eddy01741
August 29, 2008, 10:24 AM
Well, good to see that Kira is actually pretty strong minded when not influenced by Gin. He just pwned Abirama so bad.

Now on to hisagi, who better show a good shikai.

Josear XIII
August 29, 2008, 11:40 AM
I find this chapter a little weak, yumichika's battle was way more cooler, the way that kira was gonna win was a pretty predictable way, in the instant the aguila guy talked about the weight of his wings i knew that was gonna be the end of it, kira got to look very cool in this chapter but nothing more than that.

A think i find really cool about this battle, Kira revealed two unknown kido YAY! for my Text based RPG thats super awesome.

Now lets see hisagi for god's sake, THATS A BATTLE IM REALLY WAITING!! >.< need to see shikai or abilities, even new kido or great explanation to solve some plot holes

CopyNinjaKakashi
August 29, 2008, 12:45 PM
Yumi's battle was also predictable once he found out no one could see.

I really enjoyed this chapter for the reasons everyone has said. I love how Kira tells him it's not like a warrior to beg for their life before he assumedly decapitates him.

natli
August 29, 2008, 12:53 PM
I was wondering why Kira's sword had such a strange shape. But now I know that Kubo designed his sword just for the one scene in which he puts it around Avirama's neck...

Brutalkiller87
August 29, 2008, 12:58 PM
Great chapter, Kira owns. But would have been much cooler if he also had a bankai:P

Onomatopoeia
August 29, 2008, 03:16 PM
I had one big problem with this chapter above all others. To put it simply, it was Abirama.

The guy was awesome! He was Ikkaku but an Arrancar, they both had a silly before fight ritual, both loved fighting, both served under someone, both had similair idea's for what a warrior should be like, and both wanted to be tested to their fullest. And yet this chapter the awesome Abirama begs for his life?? What was with that 180? Can anyone see Kaku begging for his life? I know I can't, so thanks but no thanks Kubo I'd rather not get on the Arrancar Bashing train. I like it when my bad guys are just as awesome as the good guys.

Archit
August 29, 2008, 03:17 PM
Great chapter! I'm glad Kira finally got straight to business! Dragons to crush ants my ass....they're gettin wiped one by one and that's how it should be anyway. Barragan shouldn't use such strong words next time he makes a move lol :D anywho......time for Hisagi and Ikkaku :D

Josear XIII
August 29, 2008, 05:36 PM
I had one big problem with this chapter above all others. To put it simply, it was Abirama.

The guy was awesome! He was Ikkaku but an Arrancar, they both had a silly before fight ritual, both loved fighting, both served under someone, both had similair idea's for what a warrior should be like, and both wanted to be tested to their fullest. And yet this chapter the awesome Abirama begs for his life?? What was with that 180? Can anyone see Kaku begging for his life? I know I can't, so thanks but no thanks Kubo I'd rather not get on the Arrancar Bashing train. I like it when my bad guys are just as awesome as the good guys.

You have to understand that that even if he is like ikkaku he can't be ikkaku

Boagrious
August 29, 2008, 05:38 PM
Great chapter, Kira owns. But would have been much cooler if he also had a bankai:P

He used a Hado level 58. That's pretty tough to me, and i don't think he would reveal his Bankai now. He was analyzing all the time to find a way to beat the guy, and in the end he just had to get closer. Kira outplayed the eagle guy all the way. I guess that proves somehow that even if the espadas pick up somebody to be their fraction, doesn't mean that they are tougher than other ''normal'' espada. The power they posses could be weaker than other arrancars, that's what i mean..

Onomatopoeia
August 29, 2008, 05:45 PM
You have to understand that that even if he is like ikkaku he can't be ikkaku

So what your saying is, even if he is awesome(more awesome then Ikakku) he can't be awesome because he's an Arrancar... and theirs my point.

Besides I was just using Kaku as a comparison because of their similarities. In my opinion he's even more awesome then Kakku because of his scream ritual. Manga's really get good if you can make the bad guy just as awesome as the good guy.

Raizen
August 29, 2008, 06:22 PM
I thought kira was excellent in this chapter. To be able to use a hado 58 w/o the incantation is pretty impressive. And this chapter was much longer than the other ones, so we can expect that after the next 2 chapters, the captains will fight. THANK GOD.

redcometfm
August 29, 2008, 07:56 PM
More like next 4 chapters. Im expecting Findor to have an epic release. To be honest, Bleach right now isnt that bad, its improving (the pace was always my issue) but I will say I wanted more out of Abirama but when youre facing Kira, you can only go so far in a battle creatively (no fault to Abirama, its Kira's hax zanpakuto). But Im glad my two preferred VCs are up next.

mr.danly
August 29, 2008, 08:47 PM
Well, good to see that Kira is actually pretty strong minded when not influenced by Gin. He just pwned Abirama so bad.

Now on to hisagi, who better show a good shikai.

I think he'll have a shikai similar to Kensei's, since he looks up to Kensei in every way. That's just my guess though, seeing as it you can't decide what your shikai does, unless you're Yumi, and even then it's just limiting what his shikai does.

Eddy01741
August 29, 2008, 09:19 PM
Well, a shinigami's zanpakuto ultimately is akin to their personality, hence Kira's explanation of his zanpakuto and his dislike of fighting. Other good ones, Aizen, he pretends to be just a nice caring guy, when he is really sinister in the end, his zanpakuto is just that, pure deception through hypnosis. Here's a list of some notables:
Ikkaku, pure power (shikai+bankai) nothing else
Yumichika, beauty related (flowers and all)
Byakuya, too good for everyone (doesn't even have to move his arms to kill someone with his shikai, just his mind to control the "petals")
Unohana, a healing carrier
Tousen, makes the opponent not be able to use any senses in bankai


Etc. etc.

Anyways, that said, I have no idea of Hisagi's personality.

espressokev
August 29, 2008, 09:40 PM
how ironic would it be if Hisagi wins without using his shikai and we're all left disappointed? :)

Anyway, i really like seeing these guys fleshed out a lot more than when we first saw them in the manga. Hopefully this meas we'll see even more from them in the future.

Andonan
August 29, 2008, 10:16 PM
I still think these fights are just inconsistencies specials, I mean these are possibly the top Espada's person men and they're being beaten by shikais..........When Hitsuyuga had issues with a crap Arrancarr only a little while back

Devil-buster
August 29, 2008, 10:25 PM
So what your saying is, even if he is awesome(more awesome then Ikakku) he can't be awesome because he's an Arrancar... and theirs my point.

Besides I was just using Kaku as a comparison because of their similarities. In my opinion he's even more awesome then Kakku because of his scream ritual. Manga's really get good if you can make the bad guy just as awesome as the good guy.

Here is my take on abirama.....he over estimated his own strength......his ideals on being a warrior revolves around the belief that he is stronger than the opponent......he released his zanpaktou just as he got cut once......this makes me think that he didnt want to take any chances.....he wanted to over power his opponent even before the fight could really heat up.....but when he realized that he thoroughly beaten, he lost his chivalry.....if kubo made abirama exactly like ikkaku, who is more or less like kenpachi, we would have too many similarities and it will also stain the pedestal that kenpachi and ikkaku holds.....

Ikkau and kenpachi are fearless warriors who will fight even if they r throughly outmatched......but abirama lost his courage when his life was threatened....so in my opinion abirama is all show....

This is just my take on it......just my opinion:tem

Onomatopoeia
August 29, 2008, 11:57 PM
What proof do you have that shows that Abirama was going to turn out to be a wussy? Ikkaku acted the same way for the fight with Ichigo. Heck Abirama finally respected him when he said he was VC of Gin just like Kaku(except in that case it was Urahara).

Seriously he didn't have to make him exactly like Kaku it would've been easy. Just make him full out warrior. When Kaku is thoughtful he's actually pretty smart and serious. DOn't make him a wuss and beg for life! Thats not the way of the warrior. Could you see Zaraki suddenly starting to beg for his life? Character Develpment should never make a 180 unless something huge happens to that character(ex. Robin being saved by SHs).

Devil-buster
August 30, 2008, 12:48 AM
I understand what u r saying ono....but abirama is a very minor character.....he is probably somethin kubo cooked up at the last min to give the fearsome four some development.....we should atleast be greatful his release wasnt half bad, unlike tranny boy's release....

If u think abt it kubo has produced some bad ass villians.......grimmjow, uluquoira etc and not to mention aizen........so abirama is not somethin we should scratch our head over....he was a 2 chapter character anyways....

also u gotta take into consideration the situation which abirama faced...he was totally helpless at the last moment...he couldnt even defend himself....most people would beg under such circumstances and comparing him to kenpachi is kinda goin over board....Kenpachi is a demon who has no equal...

Andonan
August 30, 2008, 03:32 AM
@Devil-buster

Yeah gotta agree with you on this one, but again I make the point at the inconsistency of these Arrancarr, teens are captain level at one moment, cannon fodder the next........

hossice
August 30, 2008, 09:13 AM
barragans prolly gonna be like "now....remove ur power limiter!" if we dont see ikkaku next chapter then im expecting that his battle has a bigger purpose than the rest.

Onomatopoeia
August 30, 2008, 01:25 PM
Barragans Fraccions are somewhat dissapointing, his 5th(if it wasn't a mistake) Fraccion better be amazing or something because so far it's not impressive. Or Barragans using a hyperbole(quite likely).

Ulgen
August 30, 2008, 01:54 PM
Barragans Fraccions are somewhat dissapointing, his 5th(if it wasn't a mistake) Fraccion better be amazing or something because so far it's not impressive. Or Barragans using a hyperbole(quite likely).


I think the whole fights will be the same. There won't be something different. They are just stretching the whole thing. I hope that the Vaizards will appear soon enough! I can't wait anymore, because the whole balance of power is just changing. First Ichigo destroyed whole Soulsociety and now the other Taichos are even stronger!? HOW? Now he is just too weak. But I hope that we will see more of the Vaizards!

rhysno1
August 30, 2008, 02:35 PM
i think that maybe barragans other fraccion might step in and eat the remains gain power and have a 4 on 1 fight

Lord Rae
August 30, 2008, 04:05 PM
What you have to remember when thinking about the power differences...

Grimmjow's fraccion spend years eating and eating and eating and eating. Doing everything they could to move ahead as a group. That probably gave the lots of advances that some others didn't have. Can you imagine Barragan tooling around with a group looking to get stronger together? No chance. He just picked 4 he liked and thought were strong.

Grimm had the better Fraccions given how hard the fights were. Also everyone knows about what to expect power level wise from the arrancars now... its not a shock like when they first showed up.

Really imho I don't have any problem with the way the power levels are being shown.

hossice
August 30, 2008, 04:19 PM
for some reason i think that the hilt of hisagis zanpaktou has something to do w/ his shikai. IIRC it has eight sides, like an octagon i guess. which makes me wonder what his shikai could be.

mr.danly
August 30, 2008, 09:31 PM
@Devil-buster

Yeah gotta agree with you on this one, but again I make the point at the inconsistency of these Arrancarr, teens are captain level at one moment, cannon fodder the next........

I don't think anyone's realizing how lucky the fantastic four have been so far; all of their opponents have been PERFECT matchups for them, so that it becomes significantly easier for them to defeat them. Yumi's shikai is so ridiculously powerful that he could probably defeat most of the SS captains, too. Kira's shikai is also insanely useful and powerful against all physical, direct-combat fighters. He lost to Matsumoto, true, but her Shikai is a kido-type. Also, his opponent was already extremely heavy to start with; he just needed to get one or two good hits in to make it impossible for him to fly. I assume that the captain-level teens you're referring to are Grimmjow's fraccion. Are you forgetting that once their limits were lifted, the Shinigami dispatched their enemies with ease? Ikkaku beat his opponent WITHOUT his limit lifted; he defeated an arrancar with 20% of his power, regardless of whether or not he used bankai. Hitsugaya would've easily defeated his opponent, shawlong or whatever his name was, if his limit had been lifted to start... these arrancar seem pretty susceptible to freezing, as Rukia was able to defeat one with ease, and Hitsugaya has THE STRONGEST ice-snow type zanpakuto. Renji just sucks in general. Jk but he is EXTREMELY slow. His bankai's strong, but very slow. With 20% of his power, he never stood a chance. But even he was able to destroy his opponent with ease once he used his full power.

hossice
August 30, 2008, 09:57 PM
ikkaku didn't have one!!!!! only captains and vice captains. doesn't anyone read??????? but yes that is true now that i think about it more. since ikkaku didn't have one this opponent might be just as hard. both his opponents were/are big.

ryanzokuken
August 30, 2008, 10:20 PM
I don't think anyone's realizing how lucky the fantastic four have been so far; all of their opponents have been PERFECT matchups for them, so that it becomes significantly easier for them to defeat them. Yumi's shikai is so ridiculously powerful that he could probably defeat most of the SS captains, too. Kira's shikai is also insanely useful and powerful against all physical, direct-combat fighters. He lost to Matsumoto, true, but her Shikai is a kido-type. Also, his opponent was already extremely heavy to start with; he just needed to get one or two good hits in to make it impossible for him to fly. I assume that the captain-level teens you're referring to are Grimmjow's fraccion. Are you forgetting that once their limits were lifted, the Shinigami dispatched their enemies with ease? Ikkaku beat his opponent WITHOUT his limit lifted; he defeated an arrancar with 20% of his power, regardless of whether or not he used bankai. Hitsugaya would've easily defeated his opponent, shawlong or whatever his name was, if his limit had been lifted to start... these arrancar seem pretty susceptible to freezing, as Rukia was able to defeat one with ease, and Hitsugaya has THE STRONGEST ice-snow type zanpakuto. Renji just sucks in general. Jk but he is EXTREMELY slow. His bankai's strong, but very slow. With 20% of his power, he never stood a chance. But even he was able to destroy his opponent with ease once he used his full power.


still, the fact that Hitsugaya needed his bankai and his limiter released to defeat a fraccion is just sad. he really is the worst captain.

and yea, also, Ikkaku didn't have a limiter on him in the first place, as he's not a lieutenant or captain, and SS doesn't know he is as powerful as he is.

Devil-buster
August 31, 2008, 01:49 AM
I don't think anyone's realizing how lucky the fantastic four have been so far; all of their opponents have been PERFECT matchups for them, so that it becomes significantly easier for them to defeat them. Yumi's shikai is so ridiculously powerful that he could probably defeat most of the SS captains, too. Kira's shikai is also insanely useful and powerful against all physical, direct-combat fighters. He lost to Matsumoto, true, but her Shikai is a kido-type. Also, his opponent was already extremely heavy to start with; he just needed to get one or two good hits in to make it impossible for him to fly. I assume that the captain-level teens you're referring to are Grimmjow's fraccion. Are you forgetting that once their limits were lifted, the Shinigami dispatched their enemies with ease? Ikkaku beat his opponent WITHOUT his limit lifted; he defeated an arrancar with 20% of his power, regardless of whether or not he used bankai. Hitsugaya would've easily defeated his opponent, shawlong or whatever his name was, if his limit had been lifted to start... these arrancar seem pretty susceptible to freezing, as Rukia was able to defeat one with ease, and Hitsugaya has THE STRONGEST ice-snow type zanpakuto. Renji just sucks in general. Jk but he is EXTREMELY slow. His bankai's strong, but very slow. With 20% of his power, he never stood a chance. But even he was able to destroy his opponent with ease once he used his full power.

It is not luck that matched up the fearsome four with perfect oponents but kubo....if u look back at the HM captains battle all the espada's that lost were matched up against the worst possible captain oponents....the captain's abilities were best suited to nullify the corresponding espada's ability....this has been a recurring theme since the beginning of bleach.....so dont be surprised now......

also ikkaku didnt have any limiter when he fought the grimmjow fraccion member, that was his 100% power.....and the one rukia defeated was gillian class, grimmjow ate a part of his head which stopped him from evolving....he was the weakest among them....although I agree abt hitsugaya and matsumoto....

also abt yumi's ability....it has to have a limit.....I dont think he can beat any captains...but he can prbly beat almost all VC's.....the difference between a captain and a VC is still very huge....

Scion
August 31, 2008, 05:14 AM
I think that this discussion is void as the fight of hitsu and the rest with Grim's fraccion was in the beginning of the arrancar arc and kubo wanted to show the power of them. He wanted to show that even captains will struggle with this new enemy that appeared. Now we are in the end before the final battle of the arc. Of course fraccion and such will seem to be underpowered now. You may say that they trained in this time that passed but truth is that the starting fights were going to be like that to show the power of the arrancars. What matters now is the top 3 espada and aizen co. So i think you shouldnt be surprised if you saw hitsu going berserk on gin and putting a great fight. Its like bankais. Bankai was meant to be one of the greatest moves of a captain that only a select few has. But now it is just an opening move for most of them + ichigo because the manga evolves and enemies and good guys get stronger.

gold349
August 31, 2008, 08:26 AM
I think that this discussion is void as the fight of hitsu and the rest with Grim's fraccion was in the beginning of the arrancar arc and kubo wanted to show the power of them. He wanted to show that even captains will struggle with this new enemy that appeared. Now we are in the end before the final battle of the arc. Of course fraccion and such will seem to be underpowered now. You may say that they trained in this time that passed but truth is that the starting fights were going to be like that to show the power of the arrancars. What matters now is the top 3 espada and aizen co. So i think you shouldnt be surprised if you saw hitsu going berserk on gin and putting a great fight. Its like bankais. Bankai was meant to be one of the greatest moves of a captain that only a select few has. But now it is just an opening move for most of them + ichigo because the manga evolves and enemies and good guys get stronger.

agreed, that makes the most sense, arrancar were introduced, real powerful/strong and at that time many had problems with them but SS has been training just for this battle, results are clear as they have dispatched arrancar easily. Even captains would have struggled if they hadn't trained but now captains may be able to take espada (but I still think they will need say 2 captains against 1 espada).

Andonan
August 31, 2008, 08:46 AM
Look I totally agree with the Scion 100%, I know that was how Kubo was developing the Arrancarr and such, the point is though that people manage to somehow balance that dramatic writing with some justification as to demonstrate that in between this short period of time the 'good guys' have evolved beyond that of the early Arrancarr. My problem is Kubo seems to have completely ignored this gaping hole in the logic......

ryanzokuken
August 31, 2008, 10:45 AM
I think that this discussion is void as the fight of hitsu and the rest with Grim's fraccion was in the beginning of the arrancar arc and kubo wanted to show the power of them. He wanted to show that even captains will struggle with this new enemy that appeared. Now we are in the end before the final battle of the arc. Of course fraccion and such will seem to be underpowered now. You may say that they trained in this time that passed but truth is that the starting fights were going to be like that to show the power of the arrancars. What matters now is the top 3 espada and aizen co. So i think you shouldnt be surprised if you saw hitsu going berserk on gin and putting a great fight. Its like bankais. Bankai was meant to be one of the greatest moves of a captain that only a select few has. But now it is just an opening move for most of them + ichigo because the manga evolves and enemies and good guys get stronger.


if Gin is actually trying and Hitsugaya puts up a great fight one on one, i WOULD be surprised. very, very, very surprised.

Onomatopoeia
August 31, 2008, 12:49 PM
still, the fact that Hitsugaya needed his bankai and his limiter released to defeat a fraccion is just sad. he really is the worst captain.

and yea, also, Ikkaku didn't have a limiter on him in the first place, as he's not a lieutenant or captain, and SS doesn't know he is as powerful as he is.

Bull, Kubo has been inconsistent as hell with the Arrancar, at one point Shawlong said that and I quote "The Espada are many times more powerful then we are" . At the beginning of the series Arrancar was the equivalent of Sharingan Hax in Naruto. I'll repeat it again inconsistency.

NOt only that but at one point it was stated that a normal Adjuchas was equal to a normal Lieutenant(or that a lieutenant could beat a normal Adjuchas with effort) . A strong Adjucha's thats been Shinigamified the power of a weak captain when releasing. It's impressive that Hitsugaya could even fight him with only a fifth of his power.

And the F4 fights so far are horrible examples to use in this, both shikai's are as haxed as Aizen's. They could probablly fight equal with a lot of the captains.

cero_tenshou
August 31, 2008, 01:44 PM
i don't think that there is a defined power level for an adjuchas arrancar. their power can range from vice captain level to captain level. shawlong was obviously the most powerful of grimmjow's fraccion, so hitsugaya had a hard time defeating him. bear in mind that before hitsugaya's limit release, he already received a lot of injuries. so even when he released the limit to "full power" he was most likely weaker than if he began the fight without the limit. i think the same goes for ikkaku in the sense that if he didn't wait until he was half dead to use his bankai, then he would have defeated edorad more easily. an example of what fatigue can do in a battle is the fight between ichigo and dordiini. after that fight, ichigo was visibly worn down, and that could have been why he didn't put up a better fight against ulquiorra.

now back to barragan's fraccions:
from what we have seen, they may not appear to be as strong as grimmjow's fraccion, but if people realise that this time, the shinigami were prepared, then it would make sense why these fraccions were more easily defeated. the F4 came without limits, so they started out at full power against them. but i think that ikkaku's opponent would turn out to be near captain level, since it seems to be common for kubo to match shinigami to opponents according to their strength. i do have a feeling that findor is near captain level, and that either hisagi, ikkaku, or both, will lose.

Raizen
August 31, 2008, 01:49 PM
I think people seem to underestimate hitsugaya a little too much. He is young and probably didn't expect his opponent to be so powerful. But once the limiter dissapeared, he kicked his ass.

And of course the author needed to show the arcanar as powerful in the beginning b/c they are the new enemies. It is just hype. But now that SS knows exactly what they are dealing they can formulate a plan and train to win. And I agree, kira and yumi's shikai is definitely powerful, but I don't think that they would be able to beat captains.

Hockeychaoz
August 31, 2008, 02:38 PM
Ikkaku beat his opponent WITHOUT his limit lifted; he defeated an arrancar with 20% of his power, regardless of whether or not he used bankai.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/202/19/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/210/06/

That should set you straight :).


Renji just sucks in general. Jk but he is EXTREMELY slow. His bankai's strong, but very slow. With 20% of his power, he never stood a chance. But even he was able to destroy his opponent with ease once he used his full power.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/211/03/

I do agree that Renji has gotten extremely owned since the start of the manga. He's never won a fight really. This one he won, but had interference from a little girl who did more damage than him.


I think people seem to underestimate hitsugaya a little too much. He is young and probably didn't expect his opponent to be so powerful. But once the limiter dissapeared, he kicked his ass.

And of course the author needed to show the arcanar as powerful in the beginning b/c they are the new enemies. It is just hype. But now that SS knows exactly what they are dealing they can formulate a plan and train to win. And I agree, kira and yumi's shikai is definitely powerful, but I don't think that they would be able to beat captains.

Gotta remember though, this is bleach and good guys dont lose lol.

ryanzokuken
August 31, 2008, 06:08 PM
Hitsugaya is out of excuses. he's shown that he doesn't have much buisness being a captain on several occasions.

what you call inconsistency is actually just realisticness and diversity.
just because one time one character estimate that such and such level of hollow is so and so powerful, doesn't mean that every single one of them is the same strength.
no two adjuchas are gonna be the same strength. no two vasto lordes are gonna be the same.

just because some character says roughly how strong a type of enemy is, people need to not take that as a scientific law. i swear, people on these forums hear the words " vasto lordes are strong" and then it's like "ZOMFG DUDE WOAHHHHH VL'S ARE 100x STRONGER THAN AIZEN HOLY SHIT ZOMG NOTHING CAN STOP THHEMMMMMM!!!!"

overanalyzing and taking everything too literally. chill out and just wait and see how it all plays out. trust what you're SHOWN, not what you're told.

Tsukisama
August 31, 2008, 07:08 PM
Hitsugaya is out of excuses. he's shown that he doesn't have much buisness being a captain on several occasions.

what you call inconsistency is actually just realisticness and diversity.
just because one time one character estimate that such and such level of hollow is so and so powerful, doesn't mean that every single one of them is the same strength.
no two adjuchas are gonna be the same strength. no two vasto lordes are gonna be the same.

just because some character says roughly how strong a type of enemy is, people need to not take that as a scientific law. i swear, people on these forums hear the words " vasto lordes are strong" and then it's like "ZOMFG DUDE WOAHHHHH VL'S ARE 100x STRONGER THAN AIZEN HOLY SHIT ZOMG NOTHING CAN STOP THHEMMMMMM!!!!"

overanalyzing and taking everything too literally. chill out and just wait and see how it all plays out. trust what you're SHOWN, not what you're told.

I am not entirely sure how the subject of the strength of vasto lorde arrancar has come up in this thread, as it is a topic best discussed in the hangout thread or in Biblioteca, but Hitsugaya's statement has just as much relevance as any battle. Both character dialogue and action are forms of indirect characterization and have equal validity. If Kubo did not mean for that statement to have any importance, then he would not have included it in the dialogue.

Analysis of the story is what readers of a certain level of maturity do. Simply reading the manga at face value is something children do or people who aren't interested enough to care. This is literature, and we at MH are kind of an informal book club. :amuse

If you would like to continue this discussion, please use the hangout thread. This thread needs to return to the actual topic.

hossice
August 31, 2008, 08:21 PM
on topic: the next chapter might be like yumis first one. they fight and findor releases and at the end they show his release or dont show it.

Andonan
September 01, 2008, 01:47 AM
Yeah how hilarious would it be if Hisagi doesn't release again and we're just left going OH GOD DAM IT! Or he just jumps his shikai and goes straight to bankai that too would be funny :p

Onomatopoeia
September 01, 2008, 11:05 AM
Kubo will make Hisagi release because after this it's not like he's going to get any important battle now is he? Unless fodder battles are considered important...

mr.danly
September 01, 2008, 11:06 AM
I think Hisagi might have a bit of trouble with his opponent; his opponent can fight at the level of a VC, and he still has a little bit of his mask left on; if he breaks that, will he be the level of a Captain? Probably not, though, because all arrancar have somewhat hollow-like qualities, i.e. parts of a mask still on their face, so I don't see him breaking off that last bit of the mask.

patedecarne
September 01, 2008, 11:31 AM
^ I don't know...

Probably Findor was just babbling around, and I don't see Hisagi having any problems so far, let me explain why:

Coolhorn and Avirama were somewhat easily defeated, and seeing their powers, is safe to say these warrior were, at maximum, on a vice captain level; I don't see exactly why Findor would be more powerful then those 2 warriors, unless Kubo just made Findor to be another fan service now;

And I think we'll know the answer this week, even though still Ikkaku and Hisagi must fight, I think Ikkaku will be saved for the last (due his Bankai, which will take some time to use) and Hisagi has to show his shikai, which isn't so important as a bankai (storywise, because the people, including me, are really willing to see the shikai soon).

Csdabest
September 01, 2008, 01:32 PM
Wasn't Hisagi Shikai shown in a Movie?

Ametatsu
September 01, 2008, 06:20 PM
Seriously, i dont think that avirama is already defeated...
i bet kira will have to sweat a little more to win...

Onomatopoeia
September 01, 2008, 06:59 PM
Wasn't Hisagi Shikai shown in a Movie?

Movie's aren't exactly what I'd call Canon.

the wizard ninja
September 01, 2008, 07:56 PM
Seriously, i dont think that avirama is already defeated...
i bet kira will have to sweat a little more to win...

Oh of course, he still has to pull his sword back a bit so he can behead his opponent :eyeroll

hossice
September 01, 2008, 08:22 PM
for future battles (like 4 or 5 ch. from now) there r still 4 fraccion to deal w/ before the major battles. sun-sun, mila rose, apache, and lilinet. and there is still matsumoto, iba, omaeda ,and sasakibe to battle them. i look forward to those more than these right now. since we only know of ones powers and that is very little, we only know she can use sand or ash. the other have been in shikai but no powers and they haven't fought. not that i dont look forward to hisagi cuz i do really, and ikkaku i do but unless he dies or gives some cool move we haven't seen (the later most likely) then its nothing really new except po, his opponent. so i bet those battles r next or exquias vs. 3 musketeers then these. or flip flop.

mr.danly
September 01, 2008, 08:32 PM
Oh of course, he still has to pull his sword back a bit so he can behead his opponent :eyeroll

I thought what he was doing was holding his sword up against his neck to make Avirama's head heavier and heavier, until Avirama can't keep his weight up and just ends up falling onto the sword and beheading himself.

Hockeychaoz
September 01, 2008, 09:24 PM
I thought what he was doing was holding his sword up against his neck to make Avirama's head heavier and heavier, until Avirama can't keep his weight up and just ends up falling onto the sword and beheading himself.

That's what I thought too.

Plus Kira gave a kickass final line.

Ametatsu
September 01, 2008, 10:44 PM
Oh of course, he still has to pull his sword back a bit so he can behead his opponent :eyeroll

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/162/18/
all that ichigo had to do to win the fight was push the zangetsu a little...
but he did that??? no. he had a hell of a fight, just because he was careless...

(not that kira will pull back his sword right now, but it only ends when you see the beheaded corpse...)

Devil-buster
September 01, 2008, 10:55 PM
I thought what he was doing was holding his sword up against his neck to make Avirama's head heavier and heavier, until Avirama can't keep his weight up and just ends up falling onto the sword and beheading himself.

no offense...but I hope not....the beheading would be much cooler....it also fits into why his sword is shaped like that.....

I hope we will see hisagi fight next....just cause we already know what ikkaku can or will do....kubo should mix in a little new stuff with the old stuff.....ikkaku will release his bankai and prbly all the captains will go "oh..when did he get that"....except for yama who will maintain his "I always know everything face"....

As for hisagi's shikai....so far almost all zanpaktou bare a resemblance to the user's personality......hisagi has a self-confident or may be a little over-confident personality...so prbly he will have something that greatly puts his oponents at a disadvantage,,,something like byakuya's may be....I'm not gonna even move to cut u down types...

babidivegeta
September 02, 2008, 12:26 AM
Yeah. Good chapter. I'm also glad it took one chapter, maybe Kubo realised that there are a lot of fights this time?

I hope Ikkaku's bankai has another form as well. Sigh, his shikai seems soooo weak, it always gets beaten. Also, his bankai is only power...and hes shown no tricks with it. Hope theres something up his sleeve.

Well True that his shikai is weak and that bankai is only power. But the other thing is he just reached his bankai recently. And people with bankai normally train years before they develop tricks or a deeper connection.

gold349
September 02, 2008, 03:38 AM
I think Hisagi might have a bit of trouble with his opponent; his opponent can fight at the level of a VC, and he still has a little bit of his mask left on; if he breaks that, will he be the level of a Captain? Probably not, though, because all arrancar have somewhat hollow-like qualities, i.e. parts of a mask still on their face, so I don't see him breaking off that last bit of the mask.

I kind a agree, maybe kubo is going to play grimmjow fraccion scenario all over again, where 1 or 2 arrancar were dispatched easily and then the others where a problem and were dealt after power boost.

Its still doesn't make this whole situation better, Bragon "I'll send dragons to squish the ants" some bull shit like that was said and it has been the opposite were the ants have just killed 2 dragons and very easily really, I didn't want to say this but post counts/threads are showing other peoples despair at this whole thing too.

Scion
September 02, 2008, 04:29 AM
I want my ichigo / ulquiorra fix soon so i can only dream that next fights wll be 1 chapter each. What i expect is ikakku now and hisagi last. Only reason to show ikakku last is if he has something for him. Either way give us espada captains and ichigos fight already :(

Andonan
September 02, 2008, 06:30 AM
I'm thinking Hisagi may be 2 chapters, one where Hisagi is pushed back, then at the end he releases his sword.....Then next chapter they fight and Hisagi wins with some epic technique..... Then Ikkaku will be one chapter.. We show Ikkaku all bloody, then he goes "can't be helped.....BANKAI", they fight for a bit then ikkaku uses his killing move ahaha

ShaunMati1
September 02, 2008, 03:41 PM
We are so close to being done with the pillar fights but yet so far. 2 more to go and we see the more exciting fights. I hope kubo doesnt have a long conclusion for kira's fight. I would rather have kira beheading him and saying a few things but not let it drag out for 5-6 pages. I hope Ikkaku's fight is next and i dont think he will do something new with his bankai. I just think the VC's will see his bankai and comment on how come he keeps it in secrecy. Hisagis fight will be nice but after his fight comes the better stuff woohoo.

hossice
September 02, 2008, 04:44 PM
no! we have other fraccion. like i said before we have 4 other fraccion. not to mention the mess up or more powerful fraccion of barragan. unless u think those battles r alot more exciting.

ryanzokuken
September 02, 2008, 05:01 PM
We are so close to being done with the pillar fights but yet so far. 2 more to go and we see the more exciting fights. I hope kubo doesnt have a long conclusion for kira's fight. I would rather have kira beheading him and saying a few things but not let it drag out for 5-6 pages. I hope Ikkaku's fight is next and i dont think he will do something new with his bankai. I just think the VC's will see his bankai and comment on how come he keeps it in secrecy. Hisagis fight will be nice but after his fight comes the better stuff woohoo.

don't get your hopes up, lol.

they might be bastards and make us sit through the battle with the exequias or have the rest of the lieutenants in karakura fight the rest of the fraccion before we get to see the good stuff.

and for those to be interesting, you kind of have to be a fan of the HM good guy crew, or the remaining lieutenants. who is left?

squad one lieutenant-what's-his-name. O_O he bores me.
Omaeda- oh God please don't make me watch him fight =(
Iba- might be decent. probably boring though. he seems boring so far.
Rangiku-i know a lot of people like her. pass for me. she annoys me and i hate her zanpakuto.

ugh, unfortunately, it works out perfectly. 4 lieutenants, 4 fraccion. Stark's single one, and Halibel's three.

i for one am still not expecting the good stuff for a while. chances are, in the winter, as the winter war is supposed to be.

hossice
September 02, 2008, 05:11 PM
like i said page before i listed all of that but no one bothered to talk about it and then u all will be like, "well no one said anything" but now probably u will.

for some reason i thought that ikkaku wouldn't have bankai anymore since it broke but then i remembered his shikai broke w/ ichigo and before he went bankai. and renjis broke a couple times. so did ichigos. but i think the sealed version has to be broken for it not to work. like dondorris.

Devil-buster
September 02, 2008, 07:49 PM
like i said page before i listed all of that but no one bothered to talk about it and then u all will be like, "well no one said anything" but now probably u will.

for some reason i thought that ikkaku wouldn't have bankai anymore since it broke but then i remembered his shikai broke w/ ichigo and before he went bankai. and renjis broke a couple times. so did ichigos. but i think the sealed version has to be broken for it not to work. like dondorris.

Actually I think shinigami's zanpaktou can heal back.....since it is like a part of them....but I'm not sure about arrancar's since it is their actual hollow powers in a sealed form...so when it is broken it is like taking away their powers....although most of the arrancars we saw fight were killed so we dont really know if they form back......but it is a common phenomena for shinigami, ichigo, byakuya, zaraki, ikkaku..etc....have already broken their zanpaktou....so even if their sealed form is broken shinigami zanpaktou will always heal back unless they loose their powers(get their soul chain cut)

mr.danly
September 02, 2008, 08:42 PM
You can really see how uninterested everyone is in the VC fights... bleach chapter predictions has 80 comments whereas One Piece has 250 and Naruto has nearly 1000.

hossice
September 02, 2008, 09:33 PM
:/ i guess everyone knows the next ch. is very predictable.

Revan46
September 03, 2008, 01:21 AM
Actually there are five fraccion left, if you check in the side thread about different things I mention there is a fraccion of Barragan's that isn't included in the four pillar "dragons" who is helping take his cloak off.

So once Hisagi and Ikkaku's are done, there are still four VC versus five fraccion. Then we may finally find out who of the top three is one, two, and three. And we probably won't have the fight against Aizen for another six months to a year.

gold349
September 03, 2008, 02:46 AM
Actually there are five fraccion left, if you check in the side thread about different things I mention there is a fraccion of Barragan's that isn't included in the four pillar "dragons" who is helping take his cloak off.

So once Hisagi and Ikkaku's are done, there are still four VC versus five fraccion. Then we may finally find out who of the top three is one, two, and three. And we probably won't have the fight against Aizen for another six months to a year.


www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315/14
He, Bragan definitely comes with 4 fraccion, its kubo changing things.


www.onemanga.com/Bleach/318/11
I to realise now that cool horn was substituted for that little girl looking arrancar, the one that you point out helped take of his jacket.

hossice
September 03, 2008, 02:25 PM
but! u gotta remember when coolhorn was sent he was squatting. could of been the case w/ the entrance. he could of been behind him. well at least thats what he seems to be doing.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/319/06/

Andonan
September 04, 2008, 08:14 AM
Yeah we talked about this back then, and didn't we come to the conclusion that she was just a mistake in Kubo's drawing