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igotthegoods
September 12, 2008, 01:18 AM
If you haven't seen the goodies yet, you can check them out in the Spoiler Pics and Summaries (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1024175#post1024175) thread. This is where you can discuss all about them. No spamming allowed.

But remember: NO SPOILERS OUTSIDE THE SPOILER THREADS. This rule will be strictly enforced. Please respect those that don't want to be spoiled. Thanks.

NOTE: From now on, the Spoilers threads will turn into Discussion/Predictions thread for the new chapter once the Raw is out. You can find the Raw HERE (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39292). Have fun and remember not to spam! :)

Yannnnnnnnn
September 17, 2008, 06:01 AM
Yo
1st again....

look like ikkaku has really been deaten
And this punch make me think at "fox" bankai
but it will be strange that a capt in bankai is needed for this fight (it is just a faccion after all)
so who else could it be!??

Splat
September 17, 2008, 06:02 AM
looks like komamuras shikai/bankai, although i don't really get why he would be out there helping out already

Yans86
September 17, 2008, 06:13 AM
WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!from what I'm understanding is Komamura....seems like a part of KT is coming back,and at the end of the chap. Pou is releasing with his arms getting bigger,is like a Whale release....

kluzman
September 17, 2008, 07:04 AM
Huuu looks familiar ? (http://www.onemanga.com/bleach/105/14)

Can't wait for translations ^^

Yannnnnnnnn
September 17, 2008, 07:14 AM
Huuu looks familiar ? (http://www.onemanga.com/bleach/105/14)

Can't wait for translations ^^

well done,
even if here it is not chad...

it could be just this fox guy (i mean not in bankai, just his real punch !)

patedecarne
September 17, 2008, 07:42 AM
YESSHHHHH, so something interesting to see!! Komamura in action just now is the best present to see! Mainly because he's one of the captains who should be focused here! Glad to see the story progressing that way!

Kubo is really an unpredictable one, now the fight will truly begin ^^

MAX_COLA_POWER!
September 17, 2008, 07:46 AM
Since no one has made the joke, I guess I'll have to do it. Ahem: FALCON PAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWNCH! Go Sajin (if it really is Sajin punching Po). EAT IT YOU PANDA WANNABE!

slc459
September 17, 2008, 07:53 AM
YESSHHHHH, so something interesting to see!! Komamura in action just now is the best present to see! Mainly because he's one of the captains who should be focused here! Glad to see the story progressing that way!

Kubo is really an unpredictable one, now the fight will truly begin ^^
Hmm well will the fight truly begin, i mean komamura helping Ikkaku.. is really ridiculous. What happened to the vice captian of team 11, i mean they were supposed to be the strongest and Ikkaku is owned by a fraccion and yet vice-captain is doing nothing. ridiculous

ryanzokuken
September 17, 2008, 08:02 AM
Yachiru is the VC for squad 11, and she is in Hueco Mundo with Kenpachi.


this has definitely gotta be Komomura's actual fist.
a) he shouldn't need his shikai, let alone his BANKAI against a mere fraccion.
b) if it were his bankai, the fist would be much larger than Po's head.

this will be pretty cool.:) interested to see Wolfman get some real action and see what he can do.
as to why he in particular is the one to help Ikkaku, i'm not sure. i would have figured Iba, if anything, but hey, this is better.:p

Moogle Mango
September 17, 2008, 08:07 AM
Hmmm.. I dunno. I kinda wanted Komamaru to stay with the other captains. I wanted to see his interactions with tousen the most!

Ikkaku, what the heck?! You got beat so easily!! :p

Cyven
September 17, 2008, 09:25 AM
I'm thinking that his opponent might not have allowed Ikkaku to be given the chance to use Bankai (that or Ikkaku could have just flat out refused to use it seeing as everyone else would find out)
and finished Ikkaku off quickly with his release or something.

This does look to be Komamura. I'm not complaining, perhaps this is his shining moment to show off that he does have some serious power. The SS arc made him seem kind of like a joke. (as Kenpachi and Aizen seemed to have little trouble dealing with him)

alekosss_kenpachi
September 17, 2008, 09:32 AM
bleach used to be a great manga around soul society arc but nowadays its going from bad to worse so many silly characters and battles :( hope neXt time i see a spoiler i will be happier

Baron Hugenstein
September 17, 2008, 09:39 AM
Just read the spoilers:amuse
Nice to see Komamura back in action again,
but won't that mean that a captain will be distracted or a bit drained for the battle with the higher espada??

I wanted to see Ikkaku kick ass again:p

ryanzokuken
September 17, 2008, 09:48 AM
o_O wow. Po sends Komamura flying with a punch of his own?

ugh, maybe Komamura really is one of the weakest captains. i hoped he would be badass, and that the SS arc just didn't show him accurately...

but...

bah, whatever. f**k Po! somebody kill this damn guy.



lol, looks like Ikkaku really did hold out on bankai, despite what's at stake here. now that's some iron will power. good for him. stupid, but still cool.

kluzman
September 17, 2008, 09:52 AM
lol, looks like Ikkaku really did hold out on bankai, despite what's at stake here. now that's some iron will power. good for him. stupid, but still cool.

cool, but still stupid... But i guess that's exactly what Zaraki would have done if he was there instead of ikkaku.

I personnaly never had any hope for Komamura.. Well maybe he took that punch just to test Po's strengh? (yeah being very optimistic here)

LoS
September 17, 2008, 10:35 AM
If this all is true, its pretty dumb. I'm not going to lie and give some false bs. This shit is straight up pissing me off.

Tsukisama
September 17, 2008, 11:23 AM
What I don't understand from the spoilers is why Kira would knock out Yumichika with kidou. I could understand if he and Shuuhei were trying Yumichika to stay and protect his pillar, but if they could not convince Yumichika to stay to do that, what would be the point of knocking him unconscious? It only makes their side weaker by taking him out of commission. There would not have been much harm in him rushing to Ikkaku's side.

Given that Po punches Komamura in the gut, I would say that the fist would have to be Komamura's actual fist; otherwise, Komamura would likely have the opportunity to avoid a punch from a farther opponent (unless Po is really speedy), and the fist were it from Koma's shikai would be much larger than that.

I don't think now is just the time to start doubting Komamura and calling him weak. The spoilers say he took the punch. They don't say that he was seriously injured or anything like that. I am hoping that he was just getting some sense of Po's abilities.

Yannnnnnnnn
September 17, 2008, 11:32 AM
but.. he is a captain !!!!
he should have send his vc, iba
if he go against a fracion... what will iba do ?!
he will surely loose in no time against an espada, i'd like to see his shikai too

well at least we will see what foxy is able to do !!!

nicobarten
September 17, 2008, 11:34 AM
although komamura gets a punch, he's tough i think. So i don't think we have to worry... Next chapter we'll see komamura easily owning Po.

Tsukisama
September 17, 2008, 11:40 AM
but.. he is a captain !!!!
he should have send his vc, iba
if he go against a fracion... what will iba do ?!
he will surely loose in no time against an espada, i'd like to see his shikai too

well at least we will see what foxy is able to do !!!

Ikkaku is considered quite a competent warrior. All of the four warriors protecting the pillar are fairly on par with what would be considered the power of a vice captain. Thus, if Po was too strong for Ikkaku, Komamura may have made a judgment call and decided it would probably be better if he were to go himself rather than send in another VC.

Iba will either come to back up his captain or stay where he is until he receives further orders. Either way, Iba right now is rather inconsequential to me. With Komamura getting involved, my interest in this battle has just increased quite a bit. Getting to see Komamura fight now, though, makes me a little worried about whether he will have that battle I had hoped for him with Tousen. :s

ryanzokuken
September 17, 2008, 11:46 AM
maybe in Komamura's absence (if he's still like...embedded in a building wall or something from the punch...), Iba will be left defenseless, struggling to keep Karakura from coming back, as the spoiler says. it says Po holds his sword out in front of Iba, and releases. maybe he'll release and be about to waste Iba, who can't fight back. and then....dun dun dun....

Ikkaku rises and is like "Yo...we're not finished, big guy. leave him alone."

he and Iba have been shown to be friends...sort of. maybe he'll go bankai to save Iba.

this is all under the assumption that Wolfman doesn't just come back and wreck Po himself.


or hell, maybe if someone else can stabilize the dimension, Iba and Ikkaku can shikai double team Po.

akatsuki27
September 17, 2008, 12:18 PM
I first thought it would take all the captains fighting together to be able to defeat the top three espadas but now thinking about it....it would be hard for flashy move captains like komamura....his bankai is not something that can be used in combo with someone else so i think his joining the pillar fights was the right choice by Kubo...plus, even though we havent seen much from komamura, he was going to be delegated to support anyway since the remaining captains are stronger than him (personal belief)...

unless he was fated to fight tousen one-on-one...but even then i dont think he would go all out against his old friend

Oni Shinigami
September 17, 2008, 01:21 PM
I knew Ikkaku would not release his sword infront of so many of the Gotei 13.

Po is definitely the strongest of Barragans fraccion.

I am sensing a giant fight soon.

Yannnnnnnnn
September 17, 2008, 01:54 PM
maybe in Komamura's absence (if he's still like...embedded in a building wall or something from the punch...), Iba will be left defenseless, struggling to keep Karakura from coming back, as the spoiler says. it says Po holds his sword out in front of Iba, and releases. maybe he'll release and be about to waste Iba, who can't fight back. and then....dun dun dun....

Ikkaku rises and is like "Yo...we're not finished, big guy. leave him alone."

he and Iba have been shown to be friends...sort of. maybe he'll go bankai to save Iba.

hey i like this theory
but then it would mean that foxy his serioulsly hit by po punch which i doubt (i hope !)
Also
@Tsukisama you are right maybe Komamura thought that a vc level was not enought to beat him

for tousen, Komamura is not the only one who may want to fight, hisagi could also try as his ex-vc

hossice
September 17, 2008, 02:07 PM
the way i see it it could also mean ibas zanpaktou. calderon....isn't that like a star? or was it a famous city? w/e cant recall. since we dont know ibas release command that would be sweet for his. but for Po........-.-' no. and his arms growing bigger was expected. duh. since they were like the size of his body himself. from the way the pic. looks......po is fat. jk but it was unexpected and i love it! very unexpected. i thought iba would help but not komamura. nice kubo.

Onomatopoeia
September 17, 2008, 02:46 PM
Hitsugaya isn't the weakest captain:p

Perhaps this will stop all the hate toward him. At first this doesn't make sense at all but if you think about it. Kommamaru might have been allowed to go because they realized that a VC would have been useless and that they didn't want to send a captain that would make to much of an effect on the fight. So they let him go, as did the Espada.

But this sounds to much like Devil's Advocate for Kubo, so I hope that Kubo has a better explanation for what just happened.

Also with the new revelations on the pillars I'm even more dissapointed. It seems even one Pillar is enough to put innocent humans in trouble which could, not only that but Kaku scared all of his friends, put Iba in a very bad state, and finally damaged the Captains vs Espada force. Even if Kommamaru is weak ,from the seems of it, he would still help.

Doombot
September 17, 2008, 02:51 PM
People are forgetting that captains do not have to be strong. Mayuri isn't strong. Is he deadly? Yes I think he's the one of the most deadly Captains but he is not strong. The fight panned out that Ikkaku would rather endanger people then show his strength.

ryanzokuken
September 17, 2008, 03:04 PM
a single punch doesn't determine Komamura's strength. by all means, a captain shouldn't be struck with, and sent flying by a punch from just a fraccion. but surely he's perfectly fine.


this doesn't show that he's weaker than Hitsugaya. so far, Komamura's taken a hit from a fraccion.

Hitsugaya needed his bankai and his limiter released all in order to survive against a fraccion.

Hitsugaya is, without any doubt in my mind, personally, the weakest captain. and i don't mean in just brute force or pure power. i mean, all around, he's probably the least qualified captain.

i'm still gonna try not to judge Wolfman. he hasn't had a fair chance to show his stuff in his own spotlight/one on one fight yet. but honestly, Po decking him and sending him packin' makes it a little hard to keep hope.:p

Aizen Sama
September 17, 2008, 03:17 PM
a single punch doesn't determine Komamura's strength. by all means, a captain shouldn't be struck with, and sent flying by a punch from just a fraccion. but surely he's perfectly fine.


this doesn't show that he's weaker than Hitsugaya. so far, Komamura's taken a hit from a fraccion.

Hitsugaya needed his bankai and his limiter released all in order to survive against a fraccion.

Hitsugaya is, without any doubt in my mind, personally, the weakest captain. and i don't mean in just brute force or pure power. i mean, all around, he's probably the least qualified captain.

i'm still gonna try not to judge Wolfman. he hasn't had a fair chance to show his stuff in his own spotlight/one on one fight yet. but honestly, Po decking him and sending him packin' makes it a little hard to keep hope.:p

I agree. I don't even know why Hitsugaya came to the battle field anyway. The only people he has a chance of beating are fraccion and that would be a stretch. If wolfman has trouble with Pou its going to be a long day. Yama needs to throw a hail mary and see if he can kill Aizen now.

Revan46
September 17, 2008, 03:49 PM
All I can say is this is gonna be an interesting chapter. I think Komamura is underestimated but none the less, in my opinion, we've seen his bankai already, what use is his shikai going to be when all it does is summon a body part of Tengen Myoo (sp?). I dunno what's going to happen next.

camasirsuyu
September 17, 2008, 04:22 PM
Back then when we saw Komamura fighting with Zaraki he seemed weak in front of him but that fight was disrupted.So we actually don't know what foxboy can really do when he gets serious.And Aizen was too powerful for "many" captains so we can't say that he is that weak or i am being pretty much optimistic :)

I guess Ikkaku won't fight against that Po guy.But i can't predict what will happen next.If Komamura fights then it seems like he won't be having a battle with Tousen.If he won't fight then i don't believe that Iba can take Po down by himself.Well well so many thoughts in mind...and maybe Iba and Ikkaku fight together and beat that bastard!! Yea he drives me crazy:mad

hossice
September 17, 2008, 04:36 PM
:confused::gigglebunny:nana looks like some people r stumped! ha funny first it was predictable "ikkaku goes bankai" "ikkaku doesn't go bankai but beats him" and here come komamura smelln trouble w/ his nose. (lqtm) but kubo got us and im thankfull i have something to really think about. and to discuss on here. :) :)

ShaunMati1
September 17, 2008, 06:27 PM
Well it might be a bit obvious whats going to happen. Po released according to the spoilers and he gets bigger and bigger, and so far the biggest bankai ive seen is Komamura. Anyone smelling a giant vs giant batlle?

ryanzokuken
September 17, 2008, 06:42 PM
good point. that'll be cool.


but what i reallllyyy wanna see from Komamura is....


...i wanna see him fight like the wild beast that he looks like. claws, teeth, roaring. foaming at the mouth, i wanna see him leap at an oppoent and just tear into them. completely maul them. hahaha. buuut whatever works:p

tn312
September 17, 2008, 06:55 PM
Komamura's joining the fight was little unexpected. I know the story needs to develop, but if Komamura can punch Po's face right on, he could have cut his neck easily.

Po's sending Komamura flying could be Komamura and Iba working to repair the tower, and Komamura may not have been paying too much attention.

Another conflicting point is the bigger the Arancar, the weaker (more stupid) they are, right? Po seems to be the biggest one of four Arancar sent to destroy towers and three smaller ones got killed by Shuuhei, Kira, and Yumichika. Ikkaku not being able to beat Po easily even w/o his bankai is little questionable.

Giant vs Giant plot seems interesting. But I don't mind seeing Iba fight Po. Iba held his own against Ikkaku in shikai.

Cyven
September 17, 2008, 07:15 PM
all I can think of to save Komamura from disgrace (for letting himself get hit by Po) is that Komamura was trying to get Po to focus on him while Iba tries to fix the tower problem and Po may have surprised him with his brute strength...

Komamura having been caught off-guard altogether is inexcusable though. For crying out loud, even Hitsugaya doesn't make that mistake =P

ArmsDealer70
September 17, 2008, 09:24 PM
well at least we all know ikkaku isnt weak he just wants doesnt wantto show his power and um i hope the fight gets more onteresting now since all the vice capatian fights are over and all. i want to see wat the top 3 espadas release look like i hope it aint gay or anything.

eddy26
September 17, 2008, 09:34 PM
Komamura getting hit by an enemy doesn't mean he is a weak captain. If Pou had hit any captain except for Yamamoto they too would go flying. Pou is a huge man. If Pou were to punch someone like Hitsugaya or Soi Fon they'd probably go flying as well. I bet that's probably how Pou broke the pillar he sent Ikkaku flying into it. This is going to be a battle of brute strength Komamura is the second strongest captain for a melee battle. Kenpachi of course is number one. The one person who is in deep trouble is Iba what is he suppose to do release his shikai and fight Pou or try to fix the pillar and wait for Komamura to get back. Ikkaku is going to release bankai eventually but I see Ikkaku right now taking off to check on Yumichika since his pillar is now unguarded. Ikkaku has to throw some water on Yumi to wake him up.

GeckoMoria
September 17, 2008, 09:42 PM
Yama needs to throw a hail mary and see if he can kill Aizen now. :XD:XD:XD


HAHAHAHAHA best thing ive read here ever. and yes hitsu seems like the weakest so lets hope wolfman just goes bankai and stomps Po lol.

kinda like this :pwned

paulnexz
September 17, 2008, 10:13 PM
i think a captain shouldn't join the battle with fraccion/lieutenant. Komamura should reserve his energy with a battle with arrancar (1-3) or with the former captain (Tousen).

King Mordred
September 17, 2008, 10:42 PM
If Barragan is the primero espada then his fraccion or at least Po would be Captain level. So he could go toe to toe with Komomura.

Fortisdiablos
September 18, 2008, 12:28 AM
If Barragan is the primero espada then his fraccion or at least Po would be Captain level. So he could go toe to toe with Komomura.

What kind of reasoning is that? If his fraccion were captain level, they'd be Espada.

Aizen Sama
September 18, 2008, 12:40 AM
What kind of reasoning is that? If his fraccion were captain level, they'd be Espada.

Not necessarily. The level of an espada has nothing to do with whether or not they can beat a captain. It the top ten fighters among the Arrancar.

gold349
September 18, 2008, 03:08 AM
now that is silly, po punching komomura, how fake is this fraacion, how messed up is that! no real difference has been shown from the first 3 arrancar and now all of a sudden one pops up standing up to 2 captain level shinigami and that is all without a release. I like that the story and others being involved and continued but its just out of blue that a fraacion is this strong kubo should have lowly increased the strength from fraccion to the next.

Oni Shinigami
September 18, 2008, 03:26 AM
now that is silly, po punching komomura, how fake is this fraacion, how messed up is that! no real difference has been shown from the first 3 arrancar and now all of a sudden one pops up standing up to 2 captain level shinigami and that is all without a release. I like that the story and others being involved and continued but its just out of blue that a fraacion is this strong kubo should have lowly increased the strength from fraccion to the next.

Why should he have to do that?

So incompetent readers can understand what's happening?

Po obviously defeated Ikkaku (UNRELEASED) that's not saying he defeated Ikkaku when he was at his best. But still Po is obviously the strongest of the fraccion, he destroyed a pillar.

He hit back Komu...big deal. It's not like he is a bad ass captain anyways.

It's not like Po's kicking Ukitakes ass or Yammatos.

kluzman
September 18, 2008, 03:30 AM
I have some troubles understanding how people see the strengh scale in this manga. Ikkaku is nowhere near a captain's level. No more than Rengi was when he reached bankai and got badly powned by Byakuya...
On the same idea, I don't think Po or any fraccion is at captain's lvl. I mean many espadas are below a captain (they got wiped out in HM, one was even killed by Rukia). So if one of the Fraccion was captain's lvl (for real), he would have been promoted to espada by Aizen, who wants his espada force to be the strongest. (it's stated when Aizen says "When we have gathered the vasto lordes the espada will be completed")

If he's the one to fight, Komamura should kill Po in no time, unless he is very underpowered compared to the other captains.
One could say that in HM the captains' abilities were a perfect match for their respective espadas, but if Komamura fights Po, I'm sure we'll find out that his ability is a good match for Po's

gold349
September 18, 2008, 03:48 AM
Why should he have to do that?

So incompetent readers can understand what's happening?

Po obviously defeated Ikkaku (UNRELEASED) that's not saying he defeated Ikkaku when he was at his best. But still Po is obviously the strongest of the fraccion, he destroyed a pillar.

He hit back Komu...big deal. It's not like he is a bad ass captain anyways.

It's not like Po's kicking Ukitakes ass or Yammatos.


it was horrible fights up till now Ikkaku being defeated while the others won basically easily was just lame, a second captain getting counter punched was lame, braggons fraccion were just mouth so far, one of the vc ikkaku out of the 4 should have won his fight easily and kubo could have had some one save another vc ass. Captains who have bankai are big deal, this whole thing about captain coming to a vc aid and gets hit himself, its like kubo out of the blue gets a po punching ukitake that's exactly how lame this looks, competent or incompetent if story doesn't feel/make sense then that's how its is everyone is different levels not all are going to be on yours.

USC Trojans
September 18, 2008, 04:32 AM
If Ikkaku was really holding back, then he should be in trouble with soul society...because he took an opponent lightly (or for whatever reasons he held back), a pillar was destroyed and the real Karakura town is in danger

camasirsuyu
September 18, 2008, 04:46 AM
He hit back Komu...big deal. It's not like he is a bad ass captain anyways.

It's not like Po's kicking Ukitakes ass or Yammatos.

or Shunsui's...I agree!!

After i read the posts it seems a giant fight between koma and po is reasonable (by the way their names sound like bears' you realized?? =D )


Still confused about who will fight against Tousen :S His opponent have to be Komamura

Devil-buster
September 18, 2008, 07:38 AM
Why should he have to do that?

So incompetent readers can understand what's happening?

Po obviously defeated Ikkaku (UNRELEASED) that's not saying he defeated Ikkaku when he was at his best. But still Po is obviously the strongest of the fraccion, he destroyed a pillar.

He hit back Komu...big deal. It's not like he is a bad ass captain anyways.

It's not like Po's kicking Ukitakes ass or Yammatos.

Actually Komomura isnt that weak a captain......remeber Kenpachi was more interested by him than tousen....Komo uses raw power to fight rather than other captains hence he may appear less flashy.....And Ukitake and Yama are among the top four strongest captains....even the espada's 5 and down will not stand a chance against them...let alone fraccions....fraccions are at most VC level or less....and the gap between a VC and a captain is freakin huge....

But until we see the chapter we really cant say how things went down b/w komo and po from just the current spoilers....But I doubt po will stand a chance against komo...but I hope komo doesnt pull out his bankai against small fry like this....

Also we dont know if po released against ikkaku or not...he could have released and sealed his zanpaktou back....also ikkaku might be stronger than some other VC's but he is stubborn and has messed up goals....I will be surprised if yama doesnt kill him himself for letting a pillar get destroyed by holding back...

ryanzokuken
September 18, 2008, 08:10 AM
If Barragan is the primero espada then his fraccion or at least Po would be Captain level. So he could go toe to toe with Komomura.


the stronger the espada doesn't necessarily mean the stronger his or her fraccion are.

cero_tenshou
September 18, 2008, 08:14 AM
@ Devil-buster
how will yama know that he was holding back? as far as soul society is concerned, ikkaku is a 3rd seat.

anyway, i wouldn't mind if komamura has to use bankai. po may not be captain level, but that wouldn't mean that he is strictly vice-captain level either. since bankai increases your power by at least 5 times the power of the shikai, then i don't see why komamura may not need to go bankai. let's use some arbitrary numbers here:

let's say the power of his shikai is a 3. po unreleased could b a 2.

but when po releases he could b a 7 (far above the limits of the shikai)

but bankai would carry the power to at least 15 making a released po easy to beat.

because there is such a large gap between shikai and bankai, most people think along the lines of bankai being at least 5 times more powerful than shikai. but when you think of it the other way around (shikai is at least 5 times weaker than bankai), one can see more clearly why some captains might have to use bankai to defeat an opponent that would make a fool of a captain in shikai, but is defeated very easily by that bankai.

ryanzokuken
September 18, 2008, 08:20 AM
If Ikkaku was really holding back, then he should be in trouble with soul society...because he took an opponent lightly (or for whatever reasons he held back), a pillar was destroyed and the real Karakura town is in danger

SS doesn't know he was holding back. they don't know he has bankai or is stronger than he lets on. sooo, he can't get in trouble.

Oni Shinigami
September 18, 2008, 10:43 AM
it was horrible fights up till now Ikkaku being defeated while the others won basically easily was just lame, a second captain getting counter punched was lame, braggons fraccion were just mouth so far, one of the vc ikkaku out of the 4 should have won his fight easily and kubo could have had some one save another vc ass. Captains who have bankai are big deal, this whole thing about captain coming to a vc aid and gets hit himself, its like kubo out of the blue gets a po punching ukitake that's exactly how lame this looks, competent or incompetent if story doesn't feel/make sense then that's how its is everyone is different levels not all are going to be on yours.

I don't know why Ikkaku losing is so mind blowing. He didn't release for obvious reasons and that alone put a cap on his ability in Shikai (lame staff chain).

And Ikkaku nearly died to the 13th Espada when Grimmjow attacked, WITH BANKAI.

Ikkaku likes to take massive amounts of pain in battle, he tries to defeat his opponents using his raw fighting ability. No strategy or tricks, it's always just a straight up fight.

Normally Yumichika, and Kira would have probably lost in a battle of raw strength.

Coolhorn broke Yumichika's arm before he released, if Yumi didn't release (ROFL LOL SHIKAI HAX) on coolhorn, he probably would have torn him apart.

Kira would have lost to the bird opponent if he didn't win by intelligence alone and strategics.

And Shuuhei just showed his Shikai for the first time so a win was inevitable.

I don't know what type of lame series you guys are into when the good guys win everytime, 100%, even the minor battles. That's just too damn boring.

Aizen Sama
September 18, 2008, 11:10 AM
I don't know why Ikkaku losing is so mind blowing. He didn't release for obvious reasons and that alone put a cap on his ability in Shikai (lame staff chain).

And Ikkaku nearly died to the 13th Espada when Grimmjow attacked, WITH BANKAI.

Ikkaku likes to take massive amounts of pain in battle, he tries to defeat his opponents using his raw fighting ability. No strategy or tricks, it's always just a straight up fight.

Normally Yumichika, and Kira would have probably lost in a battle of raw strength.

Coolhorn broke Yumichika's arm before he released, if Yumi didn't release (ROFL LOL SHIKAI HAX) on coolhorn, he probably would have torn him apart.

Kira would have lost to the bird opponent if he didn't win by intelligence alone and strategics.

And Shuuhei just showed his Shikai for the first time so a win was inevitable.

I don't know what type of lame series you guys are into when the good guys win everytime, 100%, even the minor battles. That's just too damn boring.

I totally agree and is why I believe Aizen is so crucial to the plot of this manga. If Aizen didn't exist there would really be no reason to believe that SS wouldn't just wipe out the enemy. No hollow/arrancar has posed a real treat IMO.

CaptFamous
September 18, 2008, 11:13 AM
I must say, what annoys me more than seeing the Shinigami win so consistently is the matched abilities of opponents throughout the last dozen or so fights. It might have made sense for the last Hueco Mundo arc, as the captains could have some idea of the powers of the espada they were going to fight, but how is it that in this fight, with nobody knowing anyone else's abilities, they all ended up fighting their doppelganger? It's annoyingly contrived. Also, is anyone ever going to die?

Oni Shinigami
September 18, 2008, 11:33 AM
I must say, what annoys me more than seeing the Shinigami win so consistently is the matched abilities of opponents throughout the last dozen or so fights. It might have made sense for the last Hueco Mundo arc, as the captains could have some idea of the powers of the espada they were going to fight, but how is it that in this fight, with nobody knowing anyone else's abilities, they all ended up fighting their doppelganger? It's annoyingly contrived. Also, is anyone ever going to die?

For Yammi being the weakest Espada it seems like he's killed the most innoncent.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/191/10/

Aizen Sama
September 18, 2008, 11:35 AM
I must say, what annoys me more than seeing the Shinigami win so consistently is the matched abilities of opponents throughout the last dozen or so fights. It might have made sense for the last Hueco Mundo arc, as the captains could have some idea of the powers of the espada they were going to fight, but how is it that in this fight, with nobody knowing anyone else's abilities, they all ended up fighting their doppelganger? It's annoyingly contrived. Also, is anyone ever going to die?

Very good point. The fights usually end up being between someone that plays to their exact method of fighting. That's why I say we should look at this series of fights as one big fight. The individual battles don't matter as much as the overall mission which is to destroy the columns.

wooticus
September 18, 2008, 11:49 AM
obviously komamura won't fight tousen. that leaves just one person to match him. this guy isn't member of soul society anymore. his name is kensei and he fuckin rulz

hajialibaig
September 18, 2008, 12:28 PM
Alas, some life has been brought back to this manga. Seeing new faces in this fight just made it 10x more interesting! Po is the new man in town :D

Bones
September 18, 2008, 12:32 PM
If Ikkaku was really holding back, then he should be in trouble with soul society...because he took an opponent lightly (or for whatever reasons he held back), a pillar was destroyed and the real Karakura town is in danger

Actually kubo might have just wanted karuka town to be in danger so he could get Isshin in the storyline again or Ishida's dad......There a reaseon why Kubo let the town danger and I hope its good plot wise.....

Hockeychaoz
September 18, 2008, 12:33 PM
Yama was probably like...

"Hey Komamaru... come here for a second.. let's be honest here.. we're all being nice and everything and let you come to the real world to look like a captain... but... your just a dog with a sword.. wanna go handle that Fraccion? Actually, bring your VC too, you might need the help."

=p

But seriously, I'd love to see a Giants Fight. Finally see what Komamaru can do after being pwned so badly. I think we're gonna have a completely different outlook after this and see that Koma is a crazy strong captain.

Yans86
September 18, 2008, 01:16 PM
I don't know if Komamura is weak,and I don't think we can say that for what we have seen with Kenpachi or with Aizen,in raw strebght Kenpachi is unbeatable....and Aizen didn't pwned him,he only slowed him down with that hadou.....
Even if he is strong,I hope they finish fast.....I hope that Barragn is no3,and hopefully beat up Yammamoto!!!I really want SS to be pwned so we can finally see the vaizards!!!

Talking about the fights,yes I agrre with the most of view,is always same style against same style...if we talk in an all around manner,the strongest fighter for me are those who are really all rounded from and in the top for me stands only Aizen,Urahara and probably Miss Unohana Retsu!!!for the others characters I think that the strenghts level r quite relative.....why am I talking like that?
Ok let's imagine a fight between Mayuri and any of the VC or Captains of SS,or Ichigo or whoever u want......how many people do u think can survive against him???for me only people like Aizen,Urahara and Unohana,which have not only raw power,reiatsu and all,but also Knowledge.......really,can u think one of those all Raw power character beat him???I think is quite impossible with all his tricks and his venoms........the only one maybe is Kenpachi cause is a beast..........

ryanzokuken
September 18, 2008, 01:36 PM
I must say, what annoys me more than seeing the Shinigami win so consistently is the matched abilities of opponents throughout the last dozen or so fights. It might have made sense for the last Hueco Mundo arc, as the captains could have some idea of the powers of the espada they were going to fight, but how is it that in this fight, with nobody knowing anyone else's abilities, they all ended up fighting their doppelganger? It's annoyingly contrived. Also, is anyone ever going to die?


it's always like that though. even in other shounen manga.


what i'm refering to is the "perfect matchups"

look at Naruto.
Gaara was the perfect type to defeat Lee in the chuunin exams. any other genin there would have been wrecked once Lee opened his 5th gate.

Naruto was the perfect enemy to defeat Neji. Neji sealed Naruto's chakra points with his 64 palms. anyone else would be screwed, but Naruto has a second source of chakra, the kyuubi.

Sasuke (oh God, who can't he beat? -_-) vs Deidara. who else could have survived Deidara's A)land mine-type explosives, B) c4 garuda (all the microscopic explosives), and the massive atomic suicide bomb, besides Sasuke with his super hax sharingan and his lighting type techniques to nullify the earth type explosives.

etc etc

it makes fights more interesting. without type advantages and disadvantages, every fight would just be all out brawls with nothing but brute force. all zanpakuto's would be plain weapon types.
type advantages add depth. like...

Person A is really really powerful and a damn skillful fighter, but doesn't use much strategy or any special techniques or powers.

Person B is only about average power and fighting skill. but, they are adept in kido and have a tricky zanpakuto.

Person B and Person A both have good chances at victory.

A could overwhelm B with raw power and fighting expertise and beat them down. but if person B can get some distance and time to think, then use their zanpakuto, kidos, and other special techs, they may be able to bring person A down.

a good example that fits my analogy is Kenpachi. he defeated Noitora, the #5 espada. Szayel is the #8 espada, but if Kenpachi faced Szayel, Szayel would more than likely win.


but i can still see your point. it would be more interesting if the BAD GUYS got the type advantage sometimes, and not always have the good guys get super lucky with who they're matched up with. buuuut, this is a shounen manga. the good guys have to win. if you want a darker, edgier, more adult manga where the bad guys get more success, you'll have to look elsewhere.

hossice
September 18, 2008, 02:28 PM
when i read he looked like a whale (or resembles) i thought of my friend. lol no joke im gonna print it if it looks like that and show everyone.


anyways i do too hope komamura shows good skill. we didn't see any bankai moves but yet its in games so i want actual moves. and koma and iba tag team and iba and kaku tag team would be awesome. especially if kaku goes bankai in a super cool emotional way. :) then all of a sudden scapies ( vizards,isshin, ryuken, yourichi, kisuke etc.) show up and go up to SS and r all like YO. then....TBTP

Onomatopoeia
September 18, 2008, 02:42 PM
I think this thread should be dedicated to "Hitsuhate" all I saw in this thread is "Kommamaru better get up, he's almost as bad as Hitsugaya" or " Hitsugaya is still the worst captain". Seriously what's their to say that Histugaya is weaker then Kommamaru? Because when limited he gets defeated by a full power Arrancar that happens to be strongest Arrancar in that group? Who he then rapes the guy with the limiter off. Guess who has their limiter off from the Get Go?

Anyways the only real way for Kommamaru not to be considered weak (and thus hated for being weaker then Hitsugaya -_-) is if he pulls a "Just as planned" speech or a "You need to meditate more!11!" speech. But then I'll be quite sad, we've had about 5 chapters worth of those. I don't need another, 1 or 2 is fine maybe not in a row but 3 in like 6 chapters? Thats preeeeeety annoying. It'll also pretty much spell out the end of the awesomness Fraccion cause honestly they're pretty much the only one's holding up this arc up, all the F4(except maybe Yumi he's still the original so he can be excused) are perfect, geniuses, who lawlz!Shikai at any attack. Still Kommamaru proves to not do the Lawlz!Shikai thing then I'll rather like what happens from here on out.

P.S. For those who are going to say "I'm not Biased against Hitsugaya but..." I'll bring up the posts.

ShaunMati1
September 18, 2008, 03:27 PM
Let people hate who ever they want to hate. I dont like hitsu either just because ive seen him way too much in the manga and im just tired of him. I dont think anyone here really has a right to tell someone why they shouldnt hate a chatacter.

Anyway...i like the spoilers. One captain got involved and thats the start of something new. What i hated tho was iba through pipes at the real karakura to seal it back....so now if those get destroyed the town comes back. Deja Vu all over again--this isnt really the way i wanted to see it go, but as long as we move away from the VC fights im fine with that.

kkck
September 18, 2008, 03:51 PM
The new turn of events seems interesting but I still fell kubo is staling for the main evens such as new bankais (kyoraku, ukitake, YAMAMOTO), espada releases and of course ichigo vs ulquiorra. Not to mention that there are still captains in HM who are going to return to fake karakura, vizards, and rest rest of the guys in HM.
I think the manga got a little out of hand for kubo, so many things happening and so little pages in a chapter.

Yannnnnnnnn
September 18, 2008, 04:09 PM
Actually kubo might have just wanted karuka town to be in danger so he could get Isshin in the storyline again or Ishida's dad......There a reaseon why Kubo let the town danger and I hope its good plot wise.....

so that vizard could enter also
do not forget them !!!

Raizen
September 18, 2008, 05:17 PM
If Komomura is to finish the fight, he better not release his bankai. I mean a captain needing bankai to finish a fraccion is pathetic. And there should also be an explanation as to why he actually got hit. Any captain should have been able to see it coming and dodge.

What strikes me as funny is that the espadas didn't mind that a captain was joining a battle against fraccion. They definitely don't think much of him. And komomura IMO is the weakest of the captains overall. I think people underestimate hitsu too much. He is young and has bankai. He has not mastered it completely yet but it is still kick-ass. Just think how much stronger he gets if he does. At least his bankai isn't some giant waving his arm like a wierdo

Dynast
September 18, 2008, 05:28 PM
Just think how much stronger he gets if he does.

According to databook not much

hossice
September 18, 2008, 05:58 PM
Seriously what's their to say that Histugaya is weaker then Kommamaru? Because when limited he gets defeated by a full power Arrancar that happens to be strongest Arrancar in that group? Who he then rapes the guy with the limiter off. Guess who has their limiter off from the Get Go?


uh duh. he wasn't the strongest. he was the oldest. the ones in order of strength r the espada.

heres proof if u need it!

http://img46.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/00000209/07.jpg
http://img46.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/00000209/08.jpg

Raizen
September 18, 2008, 06:17 PM
Hitsu stats are quite impressive. He has a solid 80 all out. Anf he is young an dnot that experienced so chances are his stats will go even higher. Current;y, komo is weaker than he is

ryanzokuken
September 18, 2008, 06:32 PM
I think this thread should be dedicated to "Hitsuhate" all I saw in this thread is "Kommamaru better get up, he's almost as bad as Hitsugaya" or " Hitsugaya is still the worst captain". Seriously what's their to say that Histugaya is weaker then Kommamaru? Because when limited he gets defeated by a full power Arrancar that happens to be strongest Arrancar in that group? Who he then rapes the guy with the limiter off. Guess who has their limiter off from the Get Go?

Anyways the only real way for Kommamaru not to be considered weak (and thus hated for being weaker then Hitsugaya -_-) is if he pulls a "Just as planned" speech or a "You need to meditate more!11!" speech. But then I'll be quite sad, we've had about 5 chapters worth of those. I don't need another, 1 or 2 is fine maybe not in a row but 3 in like 6 chapters? Thats preeeeeety annoying. It'll also pretty much spell out the end of the awesomness Fraccion cause honestly they're pretty much the only one's holding up this arc up, all the F4(except maybe Yumi he's still the original so he can be excused) are perfect, geniuses, who lawlz!Shikai at any attack. Still Kommamaru proves to not do the Lawlz!Shikai thing then I'll rather like what happens from here on out.

P.S. For those who are going to say "I'm not Biased against Hitsugaya but..." I'll bring up the posts.


the difference is, Komamura isn't in bankai AND un-limited.

Hitsu needed both bankai and his limit released just to survive.
no real captain should have to go that far when fighting just a fraccion.

and also, Shawlong wasn't the strongest arrancar in the visiting group. Grimmjow obviously was. Shawlong was the strongest of the fraccion, yes. but a fraccion is still a fraccion. if KIRA can beat a fraccion in just shikai, then Hitsugaya has no excuse at all.

Komamura has been punched. it's not even the same as Hitsu's fail, let alone worse.





If Komomura is to finish the fight, he better not release his bankai. I mean a captain needing bankai to finish a fraccion is pathetic. And there should also be an explanation as to why he actually got hit. Any captain should have been able to see it coming and dodge.

What strikes me as funny is that the espadas didn't mind that a captain was joining a battle against fraccion. They definitely don't think much of him. And komomura IMO is the weakest of the captains overall. I think people underestimate hitsu too much. He is young and has bankai. He has not mastered it completely yet but it is still kick-ass. Just think how much stronger he gets if he does. At least his bankai isn't some giant waving his arm like a wierdo

Hitsugaya's bankai sucks. it's barely better than his shikai. he can freeze things in shikai. what does his bankai do for him? he can freeze things AND he gets ice wings that are worthless because he can go airborne anyways without wings. if i were him i'd just stay in shikai. same abilities, but it looks cooler.

but yea, i'd take Komamura's giant, self controllabe, destructive bankai over ice wings.

Lynkobi17
September 18, 2008, 07:05 PM
Even Rukia can do powerful ice attacks....
By the time Rukia learns her Banki, her power may equal that of Hitsugaya, or may even surpass...
Perhaps her power will be that of Byakuga but in Ice form..lol

Aizen Sama
September 18, 2008, 09:37 PM
Even Rukia can do powerful ice attacks....
By the time Rukia learns her Banki, her power may equal that of Hitsugaya, or may even surpass...
Perhaps her power will be that of Byakuga but in Ice form..lol

As much as I hate Hitsugaya, there is no way in the world she is surpassing him. He's said to be the encarnation of an angel or something like that. He has the most powerful ice based sword. It aint happening.

Onomatopoeia
September 18, 2008, 09:54 PM
the difference is, Komamura isn't in bankai AND un-limited.

Hitsu needed both bankai and his limit released just to survive.
no real captain should have to go that far when fighting just a fraccion.

and also, Shawlong wasn't the strongest arrancar in the visiting group. Grimmjow obviously was. Shawlong was the strongest of the fraccion, yes. but a fraccion is still a fraccion. if KIRA can beat a fraccion in just shikai, then Hitsugaya has no excuse at all.
Komamura has been punched. it's not even the same as Hitsu's fail, let alone worse.






Hitsugaya's bankai sucks. it's barely better than his shikai. he can freeze things in shikai. what does his bankai do for him? he can freeze things AND he gets ice wings that are worthless because he can go airborne anyways without wings. if i were him i'd just stay in shikai. same abilities, but it looks cooler.

but yea, i'd take Komamura's giant, self controllabe, destructive bankai over ice wings.

Shawlong was the strongest Fraccion in his group and second in command only to GJ. He was stronger then people that Ikkaku had to go all out to beat yet he got destroyed by Hitsugaya, the difference in power was so obvious he actually had to run.

And Kommamaru has no limiter. Hitsugaya had 1/5th of his power yet he still didn’t get anywhere near that beaten by one strike against an unreleased Shawlong.

As for the Kira battle I've got some words for you to put into one giant sentence. Haxx, No limiter, PIS, Shikai, Plotkai, inconsistency. NOt only that but Hitsugaya's victory was much more impressive, his reitsu alone forced Shawlong to run away. Kira beat him thanks to tactics and cheapness. Everyone agree's that Kira could beat opponents way stronger then him, he's a horrible example.

As for Kommamaru's Bankai it seems to be pretty bad, it may look cool and flashy but it's actually going to be extremely hard to use in a battle against someone as strong as you. To wield it you have to bring your fist down upon an enemy. The only problem is that the enemy if they have any speed screws your Bankai over because it takes time for that fist to come down. As for destructive power Hitsugaya has all the water in the atmosphere so his Bankai trumps in destructiveness or at least it should, still based on feats Hitsugaya still wins but he should win easier.

Finally LOL at above, Rukia's Shikai sucks. It also seems that Hitsuhate can transcend facts cause now Hitsugaya's Zan isn't the strongest Ice Zan around :D

ryanzokuken
September 18, 2008, 10:26 PM
who says Komamura is nearly defeated from this one hit? he's probably fine.


Hitsugaya was nearly dead facing Shawlong. his ice wings were breaking and his flowers were diminishing, and he was bleeding and breathing hard. he even talked about how messed up he was himself. if he didn't release his limiter, he would have died.

a limited captain should still be able to defeat a fraccion with bankai.

an unlimited captain should be able to defeat a fraccion with shikai or less.

Kenpachi, a REAL captain, killed Noitora's fraccion in a single swing of his sword.
Ikkaku finished Edorad in three attacks with his bankai.
Renji, a VC, did exactly what Hitsu did. one hit K.O. with bankai on his fraccion.
Rukia one hit K.O.'d D-Roy with her shikai. (granted, D-Roy was pathetic) AND she defeated espada number 9 with shikai.
Rangiku released her limit and killed her fraccion immediately with her shikai.
Yumichika wasted Coolhorn with ease once using his true shikai.
Kira, the pussy who just happens to have a useful shikai, defeated birdman.
Hisagi scared Findor into fleeing and defeated him with shikai.

what has Hitsugaya done in his arrancar-fighting career?
struggle for his life against a fraccion and win at the last minute.
make Yammy laugh with his shikai.
fail to even seriously harm Luppi with his bankai, despite having had all the time in the world to set up the attack.


plotkai is not a reasonable, legitimate excuse, it's just something for whiners to use when complaining. it's like saying "oh yea, well, if she didn't win, she would have lost! so there!"
well, it happened, so...obviously it's factual and that's how things are. when you write a manga, you can have it go however you want. but whatever happens in bleach happens, regardless of what you think or what you want.

the facts stand. Rukia's ice shikai has been shown to be more useful and more effective than Hitsu's ever has. and she beat the number 9 espada. when Hitsugaya actually accomplishes something, come back and defend him then.

eddy26
September 18, 2008, 11:35 PM
I personally don't like Hitsugaya much but to state that Rukia will eventually surpass him is quite ridiculous. It has been stated he has the strongest ice based zanpaktou so how exactly is Rukia's zanpaktou going to get stronger than his? The answer is it never will. As far as saying oh Rukia beat espada 9 well really that was more of a lucky strike she pretty much was ran through with Kaien's spear but Aaroniero underestimated her and because of the flashback she remembered the third dance. If Aaroniero hadn't moved her closer to his face her zanpaktou never would have reached him it was one enemy being overconfident.
The example of Hitsugaya almost losing to Shawlong well he had his limiter from the beginning of the fight. You could easily say if he had no limiter he could've KO'd Shawlong you never know it all depends on whether you like Hitsugaya or not. Right now that isn't really important the captain we are going to see maybe fighting is Komamura. I've always thought he got the short end of the stick Kubo really hasn't given him a chance to shine. As far as his fight with Kenpachi well really you can't say if he is weak or not because that fight actually never finished. Komamura took off because of his loyalty to Yamamoto. I'm not saying he would have beaten Kenpachi but he probably would have given him a better fight than Tousen did. The second time we see him fight it isn't really fair because Aizen used his complete hypnosis on him. Aizen cheap shots people just like Hitsugaya got tricked when he found Hinamori.
It's not 100 percent sure that Komamura is going to fight Pou because Pou seems to have the intention of killing Iba. He released in front of him and since Iba is the one with the pipes things don't look good for him. That's why I said Komamura maybe fighting because Kubo might showcase Iba if he wants to go that way but if it is Komamura I'm sure we are going to see some actual moves. We've seen what his bankai looks like but it's never been shown what it is capable of maybe some special abilities. I am not going to say Komamura is weak until I've seen him in an actual battle.

Onomatopoeia
September 19, 2008, 12:07 AM
who says Komamura is nearly defeated from this one hit? he's probably fine.If he was fine I would suspect that Kommamaru would be back fighting Po in seconds


Hitsugaya was nearly dead facing Shawlong. his ice wings were breaking and his flowers were diminishing, and he was bleeding and breathing hard. he even talked about how messed up he was himself. if he didn't release his limiter, he would have died.And fighting at 1/5th of your power has been a good thing since when?

a limited captain should still be able to defeat a fraccion with bankai.

an unlimited captain should be able to defeat a fraccion with shikai or less.Ikkaku disagree's quite heartily. Your entire arguement here is based on Hax Shikai's beating Fraccions.

Kenpachi, a REAL captain, killed Noitora's fraccion in a single swing of his sword.I forget where did I argue that Hitsugaya could beat Kenpachi, where I argued that Tesla was powerful etc. etc.?
Ikkaku finished Edorad in three attacks with his bankai.With 100% power and not being limited and even then it was three attacks at 100% percent with the final attack being a pretty close call with Edorad anyways unlike Hitsugaya who destroyed his opponent with one.
Renji, a VC, did exactly what Hitsu did. one hit K.O. with bankai on his fraccion.Renji was also much less damaged and didn't rape as badly as Hitsugaya did against a weaker opponent, it doesn't hurt that he had help.
Rukia one hit K.O.'d D-Roy with her shikai. (granted, D-Roy was pathetic)He also had a full total of 4 seconds to get out of a circle that was at most 5 feet wide. This same guy had also shown Sonido and hadn't released. Yes Rukia should be really proud of beating this idiot with plotkai. After all he didn't just stand their waiting for her to release AND she defeated espada number 9 with shikai.With an attack that only activates in the most special of circumstances, that would have been easily dodged if the opponent had actually been ready to fight, that should never have activated because she had a trident through her body which should have left her incapable to say anything after the first 5-10 seconds or kill her instantly, that the technique was at the exactly correct distance and that the attack was in the exactly correct place, and despite all this she was able to survive for at least a half an hour for someone else to save her before she died? GJ Rukia your Plotkai is quite impressive.
Rangiku released her limit and killed her fraccion immediately with her shikai.And where did this guy release or show anything that proved he was strong at all, actually?
Yumichika wasted Coolhorn with ease once using his true shikai.Can anyone say Haxx?
Kira, the pussy who just happens to have a useful shikai, defeated birdman.Haxx
Hisagi scared Findor into fleeing and defeated him with shikai.And suddenly that fights makes any sense? His claw got cut off so fast that Findor didn't even realize it, which really doesn't make any sense... The only reason he scared him was because his arm was gone. It's not a bad reason to run away at that point. Honestly this fight is one big Lawlz!Shikai it's an example of Plotkai it makes no sense yet it works.

what has Hitsugaya done in his arrancar-fighting career?
struggle for his life against a fraccion and win at the last minute.1/5th of a persons power isn't exactly a good thing for a fighter, you do know that?
make Yammy laugh with his shikai.
fail to even seriously harm Luppi with his bankai, despite having had all the time in the world to set up the attack.He was going to kill Luppi... Luppi was saved...


plotkai is not a reasonable, legitimate excuse, it's just something for whiners to use when complaining. it's like saying "oh yea, well, if she didn't win, she would have lost! so there!"
well, it happened, so...obviously it's factual and that's how things are. when you write a manga, you can have it go however you want. but whatever happens in bleach happens, regardless of what you think or what you want.Yes cause Ichigo vs Zaraki was totally not a case of plotkai, despite the fact that Ichigo has never shown that amount of power ever before/after. Or the fight between Ichigo and GJ where the words "I can't lose here" gets you an uber powerup which happens to be enough to beat someone who was destroying you. Hell don't even get me started on the HM fights. Every single one of the captains fought the Espada who they were tailor made to beat. Or you know lets just ignore that and say that the AA vs Rukia was made out of Plotkai. Do you even know what Plotkai means?

the facts stand. Rukia's ice shikai has been shown to be more useful and more effective than Hitsu's ever has.Your right Hitsugaya luckily doesn't use Plotkai unlike Rukia so he does lose to her if the plot demands it. Would you like to know why Hitsugaya wins harder then Ichigo/Rukia who use unholy amounts of plotkai ever could? and she beat the number 9 espada. when Hitsugaya actually accomplishes something, come back and defend him then.When Rukia does something impressive without the help of plotkai then argue for her.


Your arguement is based one one fact, Rukia has plotkai. But you know Plot is the reason for the story, it's the reason why Aizen Monolagues his entire plan to everyone, it's the reason why Ichigo can pull powerups out of his ass despite them not making any sense, it's the reason why Ichigo isn't dead, it's a shounen manga for god sakes Plot is PLOT. Plot is God.

Castriota
September 19, 2008, 12:50 AM
after checkin out the new chapter
how convenient is it that po's release makes him bigger and komomura's bankai is a huge beast!

Boagrious
September 19, 2008, 01:08 AM
i cant find the chaper translated anywhere yet, can anybody help?

In the first post of this thread there is a link to the raw/scanlation/translation thread for this chapter.

Darek Khort
September 19, 2008, 01:32 AM
@Boagrious - SleepyFan just posted:
http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39299

Interesting; wow weird in-transformation for Po. I really want to see how it looks like in the Anime, whilst he's transforming it looks like he's about to explode before he finally becomes fully transformed.

I like how the makeshift barrier was set-up, way better than how I imagined it (aka just a really, really difficult spell with lots of mumble-jumble spellspeak). Nice.


I predict that whilst Po is fighting Komamura's bankai, that 'kid' that we saw behind Barragan will be assigned to take out those makeshift barriers.

kkck
September 19, 2008, 01:34 AM
I liked this chapter, it was very interesting. Vant believe everyone was so shocked that ikkaku lost, I never thought he was so respected.
Also po seems to be very very strong, probably the strongest of barragans fraction. Could he be close to the espada/captain level?

C1Leader
September 19, 2008, 01:58 AM
I think Komamura's intervention was only a device to buy time for Iba to set up the barrier. I think he also took Po's punch somewhat intentionally, to measure Po's strength to see whether or not he needed to stick around. Depending on if it actually hurt or not, he might just let Iba handle it.

Take a good look at the panel in which Koma gets punched. Koma doesn't seem the least bit surprised or injured, he's just letting the momentum carry him. Sure, he's sent flying through buildings and such, but who hasn't been?

The way this whole fake karakura town arc is going, kubo's trying to give the lieutenants and captains who haven't had any action some page time, and it's starting with lieutenant levels and working its way up.

Komamura getting knocked away is going to be the excuse for Iba to fight Po. Mark my words!

It would be interesting to see a giant fight, but unless Iba gets his ass kicked too, I don't see Koma having to be the one to take down Po.

Aizen Sama
September 19, 2008, 02:02 AM
This isn't looking good for SS. A captain is going to have to take down a fraccion.

The Last Uchiha
September 19, 2008, 02:36 AM
Am I the only one who thinks Ikkaku is kind of a dick for putting the whole operation in danger, just because he refuses to use his Bankai.

liquidsky
September 19, 2008, 02:37 AM
Looks like the next few chapters are dedicated to Komamura showing off his bankai, Pou growing to that size is obviously a set up for this match up.

Stevenh1990
September 19, 2008, 02:47 AM
I think Komamura's intervention was only a device to buy time for Iba to set up the barrier. I think he also took Po's punch somewhat intentionally, to measure Po's strength to see whether or not he needed to stick around. Depending on if it actually hurt or not, he might just let Iba handle it.

Take a good look at the panel in which Koma gets punched. Koma doesn't seem the least bit surprised or injured, he's just letting the momentum carry him. Sure, he's sent flying through buildings and such, but who hasn't been?

The way this whole fake karakura town arc is going, kubo's trying to give the lieutenants and captains who haven't had any action some page time, and it's starting with lieutenant levels and working its way up.

Komamura getting knocked away is going to be the excuse for Iba to fight Po. Mark my words!

It would be interesting to see a giant fight, but unless Iba gets his ass kicked too, I don't see Koma having to be the one to take down Po.

Yeah went he took the punch it look like it didn't even hurt ,this is probably the only action he's going to get .

gold349
September 19, 2008, 03:39 AM
Am I the only one who thinks Ikkaku is kind of a dick for putting the whole operation in danger, just because he refuses to use his Bankai.


trust me your not alone, stupid ideal about his bankai, ikkaku: "fuck the world, I'm not showing my bankai- as I wouldn't be able to fight under zarakai anymore", that to me is BS, lame, he is at captain level his rietsu his shikai and power should have been enough to deal with Po, his priority was the real world not his own shitty ideal about bankai. Anyway I like how the story is moving on and the real world is now like in danger it will be like a struggle, up hill battle which is a good thing. I like things on edge and also good that others are getting involved in the fight.

hyn_pride93
September 19, 2008, 04:00 AM
This chapter wasn't all too bad. Ikkaku being beaten isn't all that hard to believe seeing as to how his shikai doesn't seem to have any real ability at all, including his bankai which just gets super powerful when his dragon gauge is full.

Po irritates me, and I hope that Komamura gets rid of him fast

EvolutionIX
September 19, 2008, 04:33 AM
Although Komamura got punched and was sent flying, doesnt mean he is weak at all. Could be all part of the plan. You know it would be a little weird if a VC was sent to pull off the diversion while the Captain Komamura was sent to reapir the Pillar. (If it is repairable) But it seems for a giant vs. giant battle, only to get Po to focus on Komamura is a brilliant idea. Now, it gives time for Iba to fix everything up, while Po gets all cocky cause he can throw punches, which dont hurt Komamura at all, but just to play along until the pillar gets fixed.

Hopes up PPL!! Komamura is not weak!

Darek Khort
September 19, 2008, 04:41 AM
What a clever fox Komamura would be if that were the case.
Hopes up that he is indeed not weak.
Komamura is perfect for Po; it's all about brute strength, giant vs giant and I'm pretty sure looking at Koma's attacks, he is a brute strength user (with assistance of giant armor of course).

hossice
September 19, 2008, 05:38 AM
im glad there were reactions. i liked how shunsui was just all "i have to look back? uhhhhh there happy?" if his sword only makes him bigger thats a bummer. he must have a power in there other than "opinion based strenght punches".

iba should say his release finally since we haven't heard it and will fight on par for like 3-5pages then get hurt, then koma rushes in and fights, bankai at the end.

Scion
September 19, 2008, 07:33 AM
If komamura needs bankai for a fraccion of an espada, how the hell can they beat espada 1.2.3 and aizen? Also yumi is a 5th seat guy and won a fraccion of the same espada and ikkaku with captain's level power and kommamura a captain was sent flying? The power levels went to hell and right back. At least i expect komamura returning saying that aint nothing and beating po with his shikai.

espressokev
September 19, 2008, 07:39 AM
i kinda think we'll see Iba in action. With his discussion with Ikkaku during the SS arc, i see him winning with some kido based attacks and Ikkaku giving him a bunch of crap for it after he's done.

cero_tenshou
September 19, 2008, 07:43 AM
first of all, just because po happens to be able to punch komamura a far distance doesn't make komamura weak. po is larger and has a much larger fist and freakishly long arms, even for his height. chances are that komamura took the punch willingly, because he could have most likely used shunpo to escape the punch if he wanted to. i say this because we have seen ikkaku dodge po's attacks in the early stages of their fight, and ikkaku has never been seen using shunpo. and remember that komamura hasn't even used his zanpaktou yet, but po is releasing. komamura might return to the fight using his shikai, and win with the release of his bankai.

patedecarne
September 19, 2008, 07:59 AM
Truth to be told, but Komamura, being a captain, shouldn't even use his shikai against a fraccion;

Chances are that Komamura will just appears again, saying things like: was that a punch? And then, with just his spiritual pressure, crush the enemy;

And yes, Ikkaku's part was terrible: his role was to protect the pillar, not his pride; If by chance Yammamoto came to know about Ikkaku's hidden Bankai then Ikkaku will be demmoded by sure...

BrettHartt
September 19, 2008, 08:25 AM
trust me your not alone, stupid ideal about his bankai, ikkaku: "fuck the world, I'm not showing my bankai- as I wouldn't be able to fight under zarakai anymore", that to me is BS, lame, he is at captain level his rietsu his shikai and power should have been enough to deal with Po, his priority was the real world not his own shitty ideal about bankai. Anyway I like how the story is moving on and the real world is now like in danger it will be like a struggle, up hill battle which is a good thing. I like things on edge and also good that others are getting involved in the fight.

You honeslty have to read durther into that. Keep in mind that his captain obtained his status as captain by a duel to the death with the previous captain. Baldie is trying to save his own but in the process of preserving his Bankai. I'd think that if he showed his bankai Kenpachi wouldn't rest until he properly hunted him down.

ryanzokuken
September 19, 2008, 09:13 AM
the power levels aren't messed up. people take the inconsistency issues too far.


terms like "captain level" seem to throw people tremendously.

Ikkaku has bankai and captain level power. that doesn't mean he could make a captain even half-way decent. don't get me wrong, i love Ikkaku, i think he's awesome, i'm just saying, his personality and somewhat empty arsenal (he has a lot of raw power and a lot of pure fighting skill, but no other techniques or moves in his grasp) would make him a faulty captain. he wouldn't be a good leader, nor would he be a rational thinker.

also, he can be called "captain level", but that doesn't mean he's as good as the captains we know. if he were made a captain, he would probably be the weakest captain. bottom of the barrel.
i like him where he is. he's more impressive that way. if you bring him up the ranks to captain, then in comparison to the others, he'll suck, and that'll be no fun.

i think people take things like captains and vasto lordes and all kinds of groupings, like arrancar in general, and they consider them all as one big group of identicals, and they forget that they will all be different and have more or less individual power and ability. then when someone defeats someone all of a sudden it's inconsistent.

craig
September 19, 2008, 10:10 AM
Truth to be told, but Komamura, being a captain, shouldn't even use his shikai against a fraccion;

Chances are that Komamura will just appears again, saying things like: was that a punch? And then, with just his spiritual pressure, crush the enemy;

And yes, Ikkaku's part was terrible: his role was to protect the pillar, not his pride; If by chance Yammamoto came to know about Ikkaku's hidden Bankai then Ikkaku will be demmoded by sure...

Agree on Komamura - he didn't even TRY to sidestep OR block the punch when the enemy CLEARLY signaled that he was going to punch him. That's fighting 101 - if your opponent has a tell, prepare for it. Komamura was testing his strength.

Disagree on Ikkaku. Ikkaku hiding his ban kai is what makes Ikkaku, Ikkaku. Would you really be content if he revealed his ban kai that he'd hidden from his captain and SS? If he had, it would seriously change the character Kubo's been building him up to be. I agree that it might have been a dick move to sacrifice the mission for his pride, however it's this imperfection that makes him a more human character.

Dynast
September 19, 2008, 10:21 AM
Since Komamura is obviously dead I wonder who will rescue Iba. Maybe Soi Fon...

ryanzokuken
September 19, 2008, 10:48 AM
Since Komamura is obviously dead I wonder who will rescue Iba. Maybe Soi Fon...


LOL

Koma is fine.

it'll either be:

A) Koma comes back just in time to save Iba and destroys Po.
B) Iba fights Po, getting beaten, but holding him off. Koma shows up before Iba is killed and one hit K.O.'s Po with shikai or something.
C) Ikkaku gets up and he and Iba double team Po and kill him.
or D) Ikkaku goes bankai after all and kills Po to save Iba.


but who knows...one of the espada might just appear on the spot and get in Koma's face. like, "if you captains are going to interfere and start making moves, so are we." and then commence powerhouse brawl between captains and espada.

Moogle Mango
September 19, 2008, 11:36 AM
Po's transformation, especially the neck, is a little disturbing..

Against Komamaru that was a pretty fast decision to to release. He only just punched Komamaru.

Dynast
September 19, 2008, 11:55 AM
He only just punched Komamaru.


Koma is fine.

It was the same last time. Aizen was just standing there and only casted a kidou. Komamura is dead.

manga_freaky
September 19, 2008, 12:34 PM
Exactly i thought that too. Seriously he should have died. It would have made things way more interesting but helas. I mean we've already seen his bankai. No flamming pls but for story purpose i just think it could have worked out with or without him because it's clear as for now that tousen and Komamura are not going to meet soon or ever.

000
September 19, 2008, 01:17 PM
It was the same last time. Aizen was just standing there and only casted a whooppind forbidden 90-lvl kidou.Fixed for Truth.


Against Komamaru that was a pretty fast decision to to release. He only just punched Komamaru.This is Fraccion vs Capitan after all. Maybe Po thinks of destroying Kommamura quick before he uses his Capitan Powers...

Devil-buster
September 19, 2008, 01:30 PM
I dont think a single punch will do much to komo....and I also dont think he will use bankai...his shikai should be more than enough to beat po....his shikai is basically the same as his bankai except it doesnt bring the whole giant out....so it should be fine to take out a fraccion....

Moogle Mango
September 19, 2008, 01:43 PM
he released his shikai before?

Onomatopoeia
September 19, 2008, 02:18 PM
I'll be the first to say that Kommamaru was defintely damaged and those who say he wasn't are underestimating Po. The guy's defintely not fine and it'll show when we next see him. Now then Kommamaru isn't dead or defeated, not by a longshot. He'll show up later.

You know Barragan was not at all surprised about what happened, perhaps those who don't like him are underestimating his intelligence, the guy was extremely calm.

ryanzokuken
September 19, 2008, 02:25 PM
watch, now Po will pull some windmill move and swing his now gigantic arms around and smash the rest of the pillars as well -_-


someone end this guy quick. Soi Fon, get in there and just double prick him with your shikai.


http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-145-page-19.html
^if Tousen was fine from Kenpachi's kick to his chest there, Koma will be fine from Po's punch to his gut.

Ulgen
September 19, 2008, 03:08 PM
KOMAMURA IS NOT HURT OR DIED BECAUSE OF SUCH A LAME PUNCH!

He is a Captain Class Shinigami so we will see him with his true powers bashing this fraccion. It is just a warmup. Just wait and you will see!

gold349
September 19, 2008, 03:18 PM
CptBear was whooped big time, he landed a fair distance compared to Po when he got punched. He is not KO'd and his shikai should be enough, though ikkaku was already in shikai and lost miserably and he was captain level so another captain in shikai will that do anything?. I call it lame to have fraccion this strong to pop up out of blue but for story progression, I'm enjoying one that is strong and not fodder.

When arrancar hygokyo'fied were introduced this is the sort of power I was expecting, those that were modified by aizen even if they was the weakest among hollow I was expecting them to be seriously powerful still compared to shinigami, a vc level arrancar and avc level shinigami I was expecting the arrancar to have passed all the limits that stop shinigami growth and for the arrancar to be like overkill, I was expecting even fraccion to be trouble/problem for captains but the 3 we have had already were weak and one strong one has come out of the blue (comparing to the previous), it should have been like that from start or some sort of progression in power/strength from one to the next and not all of a sudden insanely strong, anyway its all good, others are coming into battle.

Andonan
September 19, 2008, 09:12 PM
I laughed so hard when I saw Hisagi say "if Ikkaku lost what can you expect to do" and I was like dude you witnessed Yumi Shikai first hand, he could whoop that guy in two minutes, just like Ikkaku could if he went bankai....I'm sorry Po is strong I'll except that but it is ridiculous to have 3 fodder arrancarr and then have a 4th who can beat a captain.....if he takes this road, and continues with so many damn power flux's I'm going to stop watching/reading Bleach because this is getting ridiculous.....

hossice
September 19, 2008, 10:56 PM
so this occured to me. how do u pronounce Po. like poh? or pow? im not good w/ japanese names and i know prununciations can be dif.


i like how Po looks like an ape on all fours. dog eat dog 2????

dmizzle
September 19, 2008, 11:18 PM
ikkaku got hiz ass handed 2 him everybody becuz he refuses to show his bankai, which is retarded, and mr falcon punch seemz like hez slow ass hell so sum1 plez cut him down and remove hiz head and move on to the espada....also it wood b poppin if yoroichi and kisuke joined the fight with the vizards...damn the gud side got a squad
[hr]
wen the hell ichigo and ulquiorra gana fight, i wana c dat!

USC Trojans
September 19, 2008, 11:35 PM
Giant sized Po vs. Giant Sized Komamura...its gonna be like a Godzilla movie lol

Raizen
September 20, 2008, 12:04 AM
If Koma needs bankai to beat a fraccion, he doesn't deserve to be called a captain. Let Renji have it lol.

Whether, he was hurt or not the thing is a captain should be able to counter such a direct attack easily. Any other captains would have stop the punch with just their reiatsu or their pinky.

And ikkaku, I like him but it is ridiculous putting ur whole mission in danger b/c u are afraid of being promoted another squad due to ur allegiance to ur captain. Just refused the offer. Just use bankai, who cares. His pride kind of pisses me off.

And if the espada tries to intervene against koma, the captain won't let that happen for sure. Can't wait to see their bankai. The thing is if the enemy does not know that ability of soifon's attack, they are screwed b/c the first hit does no damage. They are set into a false sense of security that her shikai does nothing and then bamm ur dead.

bloodrage
September 20, 2008, 01:08 AM
that punch could not of done much damage to kom plus the guy as gone over size now he has to be over slow now just dance around him and beat him up clacius clay style

wiskill
September 20, 2008, 03:17 AM
What the hell are all the other captains doing? Staring at the flames while their Vice Captains fight?

Darek Khort
September 20, 2008, 07:21 AM
@wiskill -
Like many have mentioned before; time in any manga such as Bleach is not as it seems. It might have been months for us, but for these guys the vice-captians were fighting the fraccion simultaneously.
It's not like everyone watched Yumi fight, and then after Kira decided to fight and afterwards, Hisagi decided to fight; and then after watching all 3 fight and win, Po suddenly decided to start fighting against Ikkaku.
It all happens at the same time.

And since the Captains most likely decided the Fraccion aren't that powerful, they let the VCs have their turn of fighting. Afterall, if the Captains were to fight every enemy their squads come across then their VCs and others would suck because they'd have no combat experience.

Ulgen
September 20, 2008, 10:42 AM
@wiskill -
Like many have mentioned before; time in any manga such as Bleach is not as it seems. It might have been months for us, but for these guys the vice-captians were fighting the fraccion simultaneously.
It's not like everyone watched Yumi fight, and then after Kira decided to fight and afterwards, Hisagi decided to fight; and then after watching all 3 fight and win, Po suddenly decided to start fighting against Ikkaku.
It all happens at the same time.

And since the Captains most likely decided the Fraccion aren't that powerful, they let the VCs have their turn of fighting. Afterall, if the Captains were to fight every enemy their squads come across then their VCs and others would suck because they'd have no combat experience.


You are right! It is important the way you look at the development of the action. It is all happening at the same time. So you have to be careful with such comments. I hope we will see a huge battle of the fraccion and Komamura. But I have a feeling that Ikkaku will still handle this because the fraccion will be still too low for Komamura.

bloodrage
September 20, 2008, 12:02 PM
i don't even think barragan is the strongest arrancar there kom will finish this fight in the nex two chapters this guy is just big and ugly now

Tsukisama
September 20, 2008, 12:55 PM
so this occured to me. how do u pronounce Po. like poh? or pow? im not good w/ japanese names and i know prununciations can be dif.


i like how Po looks like an ape on all fours. dog eat dog 2????

"Po," I believe, would be pronounced as "Pō" (rhyming with "no").


I laughed so hard when I saw Hisagi say "if Ikkaku lost what can you expect to do" and I was like dude you witnessed Yumi Shikai first hand, he could whoop that guy in two minutes, just like Ikkaku could if he went bankai....I'm sorry Po is strong I'll except that but it is ridiculous to have 3 fodder arrancarr and then have a 4th who can beat a captain.....if he takes this road, and continues with so many damn power flux's I'm going to stop watching/reading Bleach because this is getting ridiculous.....

I also thought that Hisagi's statement was a little strange. He knows that Yumichika is hiding an extremely powerful ability, and since Shuuhei does not know Ikkaku's secret, it would have been logical for him to think that Yumi was more powerful than Ikky. The only explanations I could think on that are that either Shuuhei thought Yumi's ability was not good enough to defeat Po based on what he has observed so far, amking it suicidal for him to go, or that Shuuhei was trying to protect Yumi's secret.

On a related note, any cool points Izuru won with me went out the window when he hit Yumi with the shiten and arrogantly told him that he should know his place. I realize that Yumi is technically only a 5th seat and that Kira is thus justified to do, but that arrogance of his at having a highger position jst makes him look bad in my eyes. If he and Yumi were to have a fight and Yumi used his true power, Kira would lose undoubtedly. Kira's behavior reminds me of the old Kira back in SS that placed so much importance on rank and authority to follow Gin's wishes unquestioningly and that he would go against his friends.


If Koma needs bankai to beat a fraccion, he doesn't deserve to be called a captain. Let Renji have it lol.

Whether, he was hurt or not the thing is a captain should be able to counter such a direct attack easily. Any other captains would have stop the punch with just their reiatsu or their pinky.

And ikkaku, I like him but it is ridiculous putting ur whole mission in danger b/c u are afraid of being promoted another squad due to ur allegiance to ur captain. Just refused the offer. Just use bankai, who cares. His pride kind of pisses me off.

And if the espada tries to intervene against koma, the captain won't let that happen for sure. Can't wait to see their bankai. The thing is if the enemy does not know that ability of soifon's attack, they are screwed b/c the first hit does no damage. They are set into a false sense of security that her shikai does nothing and then bamm ur dead.

I sincerely hope that Komamura does not need to go bankai either, since he really should not have to do so, but if Koma does use his bankai, I would blame Kubo for poor storytelling rather than Koma for being weak. Like you said, as a captain, Komamura should be able to handle this situation without going above shikai. To have a fraccion suddenly appear that his ridiculously powerful, so much so that it would force a captain to use bankai, would be ludicrous to me.

Ikkaku's "secret bankai" plot device is rather disappointing and really does not even make that much sense to me. He has bankai and perhaps meets some (maybe even all) of the criteria for being a captain, but it would be illogical to think that Yamamoto or anyone else would force him to become a captain. At most, they would suggest it and after he turned the position down, people would think less of him for being so attached to Kenpachi that he would not help out the rest of SS by serving as a captain. Ikkaku is being disappointingly selfish.

As for having foreknowledge on the captains, I would expect the top 3 espada present to have been briefed on what is known about the SS captains. If not, I would wonder why Aizen had not bothered to tell them in their preparations for this current operation (although Abirama did not know about Izuru's ability, which casts a small amount of doubt but I still hope that at least the espada know). Plus, if they don't know and they end up fighting someone like Soi Fon, the fight would be an instant win, and it would be a major let-down if the espada could be taken out so easily, which I have enough confidence in Kubo to at least not let that happen.

Raizen
September 20, 2008, 05:10 PM
What exactly is shiten, the thing kira used.

And I too believe aizen filled the espadas on the abilities of the captains. But I mean if an opponent that does not know of soifon's abilities, they would be screwed. Unless they are like a hundred times more powerful and would not get hit but considering that she is a captain, I don't see that happening

Darek Khort
September 20, 2008, 06:32 PM
For some reason the shiten Kira used reminds me of when Hanatarou used a drop of liquid to put to sleep weak shinigami during the SS arc. If I remember correctly he explained that the liquid was a way to quickly paralyze/knock-out those with weak reaitsu.
Unfortunately if Shiten is indeed the same liquid...it would be strange that Yumi was knocked out with it.

Edit: Here it is, found it:
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/115/04/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/115/05/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/115/06/

Yep, it's Shiten. Inconsistency? I'm sure Yumi wasn't that beat.

Onomatopoeia
September 20, 2008, 09:27 PM
Inconsistency is a bitch ain't it? I really think that Kubo should, after he finishes Bleach go back through every manga chapter and fix all the plotkai,inconsistency, and the flat out BS. If he did then it would make Bleach a much better Manga.

Anyways theirs been some big differences in my character opinions.

First of all Kira has just hit Fail levels with the most arrogant/retarded/douchebag statement of the entire manga. Hey bud guess who's in the F4 with you, isn't Emo and could kick your ass.

Yumi=Win, I don't really need to state more then that but I will. The guy probablly had the best I've got to save my friend line in the manga. Ichigo is redundant and never admits that he doesn't have a chance in hell.

My opinion of Ikkaku went way down a lot of hell is happening because he was way to arrogant and prideful. Iba is fighting against someone who he's probablly going to lose and badly. A lot of the plan has been thouroughly screwed over etc.

redcometfm
September 20, 2008, 09:49 PM
Ichigo is redundant and never admits that he doesn't have a chance in hell.

Whats the point of admitting you don't have a chance in hell when you've got nothing to lose by going all out to save someone you care about in possibly a 50/50 circumstance of the only you have to save them before potential escalation.

Ichigo realizes there's no point, that it's a waste of time to wander in abysmal thoughts. He has to do what he has to do, anything delaying thoughts are a waste of time and he's going to do what he can. What you're complaining about is Ichigo's lack of a defeatist attitude, which is extremely against his character.

Its a beautiful philosophy to live life by.

True Blade
September 20, 2008, 10:15 PM
I think we can all agree that Hisagi is awesome though, right?

Anyways, I don't think it's too odd for Komamura to be dueling a fraccion. I'd personally rather see him fight an Espada like Yammy, but opponents are limited, and he's not strong enough to handle the top 3 Espada, or Aizen/Gin. Of course, a fight against Tosen would be all kinds of perfect. I wouldn't be surprised if at the end of Komamura's duel with Po we see Tosen make his first move.

Onomatopoeia
September 20, 2008, 10:20 PM
Whats the point of admitting you don't have a chance in hell when you've got nothing to lose by going all out to save someone you care about in possibly a 50/50 circumstance of the only you have to save them before potential escalation.

Ichigo realizes there's no point, that it's a waste of time to wander in abysmal thoughts. He has to do what he has to do, anything delaying thoughts are a waste of time and he's going to do what he can. What you're complaining about is Ichigo's lack of a defeatist attitude, which is extremely against his character.

Its a beautiful philosophy to live life by.

Ichigo pretty much says that he "Can't lose here" and gets a powerup. Yumi knows that he can't win and admits it but goes to do it anyway. Ichigo can't win? He trains for a few days and gets a powerup, I just wish Ichigo was a little bit more realistic, your trying to paint my words as an extreme. Also Ichigo does have a defeatist atitude remember, right before HM arc? That was probablly his worst moments so I suppose it's better that he doesn't turn weird like that.

And for the last part, depends on whether your a main character in a (most)Shounen Mangas or not. If were talking about real life then it's a completely unreleastic philosophy to live by. Sounds good on paper but to try it in real life...

ryanzokuken
September 20, 2008, 10:27 PM
Koma will probably not fight Tousen now. i thought and hoped he would as well, but if he gets worn out in this fight, he won't be able to.


but, that leaves one other guy with a beef with Tousen. Kensei. :D and that's a fight i'd rather see, so hey, sounds good to me.

True Blade
September 20, 2008, 10:32 PM
Koma will probably not fight Tousen now. i thought and hoped he would as well, but if he gets worn out in this fight, he won't be able to.


but, that leaves one other guy with a beef with Tousen. Kensei. :D and that's a fight i'd rather see, so hey, sounds good to me.

I'm still not sure how the Visored are gonna play into this, personally. There are currently enough captains available for every person to engage in a solo duel. Are the Visored going to arrive ala Village of the Sand Vs. The Sound Four style, rescuing whoever Gin gets to smackdown? As much a vendetta they have against Aizen... they could just as easily have a vendetta towards Soul Society, and rightfully so. I'm tellin ya'lls... in my mind they are a wild card.

Stevenh1990
September 20, 2008, 11:28 PM
Hey do you think after this Soul king arc Kubo will make a Hell arc with something like 13 Hell like Captains with different swords than a zanpakuto ?

Darek Khort
September 21, 2008, 12:07 AM
^Maybe a filler arc or a post-humus arc but I doubt an actual main storyline in the manga. I just can't see it happening. Anything that didn't involve zanpakuto as a person's main weapon have been filler arcs.

If Kubo goes the way he is going right now I'd rather it end at Soul King arc. I really don't want more. But if Kubo becomes more interesting and gets back the spark of the SS arc I don't mind it continuing (although I really don't see how it could. Afterall, the whole manga has centered around Aizen as the big bad guy. To have it suddenly change would either mean it'll be another few decades before Bleach ends...or the new enemy will be extremely ...out of place.)

redcometfm
September 21, 2008, 12:46 AM
Ichigo pretty much says that he "Can't lose here" and gets a powerup. Yumi knows that he can't win and admits it but goes to do it anyway. Ichigo can't win? He trains for a few days and gets a powerup, I just wish Ichigo was a little bit more realistic, your trying to paint my words as an extreme. Also Ichigo does have a defeatist atitude remember, right before HM arc? That was probablly his worst moments so I suppose it's better that he doesn't turn weird like that.

And for the last part, depends on whether your a main character in a (most)Shounen Mangas or not. If were talking about real life then it's a completely unreleastic philosophy to live by. Sounds good on paper but to try it in real life...

I understand but whats the point of him thinking that? If hes going to get fucked up not matter what he does in order to save someone in that critical moment, then he might as well go all out doing it.

Actually, not really. This may sound a bit sad, but Ive actually applied it personally and its improved my grades and my love life lol
Ichigo goes through those moments where he's supposed to do something but there are warnings -- only he doesnt bother with the warnings because eitherway he still has to do it, theres no point in listening to something thatll deter him from doing what he has to do. Its a brilliant "fuck it" attitude and its worked for me. Give it a try ;)

gold349
September 21, 2008, 04:50 AM
what I see after reading this chapter is Kubo is making the argument for the vaizard to come into play somehow, I mean a fraccon punching a fully blown captain who has been SS for hundreds of years (exaggerating) that distance, the fraccion has come out real strong. It is all out of the blue but Kubo has to start the punishment of the captains so that the vaizard can come into play as the saviours. Why not start that captain ass beating now with a fraccion then let the espada just beat them.. in all dimensions and then send vaizard in to save the day.

Raizen
September 21, 2008, 01:02 PM
what I see after reading this chapter is Kubo is making the argument for the vaizard to come into play somehow, I mean a fraccon punching a fully blown captain who has been SS for hundreds of years (exaggerating) that distance, the fraccion has come out real strong. It is all out of the blue but Kubo has to start the punishment of the captains so that the vaizard can come into play as the saviours. Why not start that captain ass beating now with a fraccion then let the espada just beat them.. in all dimensions and then send vaizard in to save the day.
But the thing is that would demean the captains. I mean some of the captains are equal to if not stronger than even some of the vizards : like yama, uki, shunsui, and unohana

I say after the captains take out the top 3, aizen will laugh and said that in order to get the VL he needed to wipe out all of the espadas, and since he was alone he couldn't do it that is why he needed SS. As the VL shows up, the captains in HM shows up and reinforce them but they are still tired from their fight. The urahara, youruichi, isshin, and the vizards show up and an all out war rages

ryanzokuken
September 21, 2008, 04:18 PM
Unohana being uber is still speculation.

Ukitake and Shunsui being stronger than ALL the vaizards? ehhh. maybe. together. but still doubtful.

Shinji, Love, Kensei, and Rose are all former captains (if theyfollow bleach tradition, being "former" captains will make them amazing. all the former captains seem to be more godly than current captains). they're all sure to be powerful, skilled fighters, shikai, bankai, AND they have vaizard mask powerups and hollow techniques like cero. well, at least Shinji knows cero, so i imagine they might as well.

we've seen that Shinji + mask is around the same level, maybe a little better than Ichigo + bankai + mask.

imagine Shinji with his mask on using his shikai and bankai.

Tsukisama
September 21, 2008, 04:32 PM
Unohana being uber is still speculation.

This is not just speculation. What little characterization Unohana has received has all implied her to be extremely powerful, ranging from character opinions of her to databook information. It is implied that she is quite powerful.


Shinji, Love, Kensei, and Rose are all former captains (if theyfollow bleach tradition, being "former" captains will make them amazing. all the former captains seem to be more godly than current captains). they're all sure to be powerful, skilled fighters, shikai, bankai, AND they have vaizard mask powerups and hollow techniques like cero. well, at least Shinji knows cero, so i imagine they might as well.

we've seen that Shinji + mask is around the same level, maybe a little better than Ichigo + bankai + mask.

imagine Shinji with his mask on using his shikai and bankai.

I don't really know how powerful the vizard beside Shinji and Hiyori are, given that we don't really have much basis to go on. I wouldn't generalize them as all being extremely powerful just because they used to be captains and are now vizards. As for Shinji, I also expect him to quite powerful, but the relative power of the captains and the vizards is not really an issue of this thread.

What is an issue is when the vizards will finally make an appearance on the battlefield. It seems doubtful currently that we will see them in action within even the next 10 chapters. With Komamura getting into the mix, it seems like this is the beginning of the captains taking some sort of action, and I doubt that the vizards will show up until after the captains have their fights (unless the vizards turn out for some reason to be against SS in some way). On top of that, the focus could return to the battles in HM at some point too, also likely to happen before we see vizards in action.

gold349
September 21, 2008, 04:58 PM
But the thing is that would demean the captains. I mean some of the captains are equal to if not stronger than even some of the vizards : like yama, uki, shunsui, and unohana

I say after the captains take out the top 3, aizen will laugh and said that in order to get the VL he needed to wipe out all of the espadas, and since he was alone he couldn't do it that is why he needed SS. As the VL shows up, the captains in HM shows up and reinforce them but they are still tired from their fight. The urahara, youruichi, isshin, and the vizards show up and an all out war rages


that's the thing when this hyoguoko (spelling) was talked about by aizen, he said that no matter what shinigami did, once they attain max level in all 4 fighting disciplines their growth stops and that this hyoguoku (spelling) will remove that barrier, that is why he wanted vastro. Espada, Vastro, lets assume they was captain level to begin with then with removing barrier they can have no limit, they can go beyond anything shinigami can, I honestly was expecting the espada to be overkill for shinigami may they be VC or captain. I thought even yamma ji would be surpassed with this thing, the vaizard are same as vastro/espada that have been hyogouko-fied they should be able to do what espada/vastro can do and surpass limits in growth. I was expecting even top level captains to look like kids compared to power/strength of espada/arrancar.

Kubo can bring others in to this by making the captains look silly. Isshin, yourichi, urahara etc..kubo can make story for them..there is a zero division of which we know little. Kubo can make these outside forces like urahara, yourichi and others even more powerful than shinigami captains by making up story such as experiments on them self or to give them some other type of power that shinigami captains don't have. Kubo can easily do this and make it believable due to them (urahara and co) not being restricted to the rules/controls placed upon normal serving shinigami. Urahara, they could have carried out many experiments on them self in order to gain extra strength/power but not going down the hollow route like vaziard

Onomatopoeia
September 21, 2008, 05:46 PM
I understand but whats the point of him thinking that? If hes going to get fucked up not matter what he does in order to save someone in that critical moment, then he might as well go all out doing it.

Actually, not really. This may sound a bit sad, but Ive actually applied it personally and its improved my grades and my love life lol
Ichigo goes through those moments where he's supposed to do something but there are warnings -- only he doesnt bother with the warnings because eitherway he still has to do it, theres no point in listening to something thatll deter him from doing what he has to do. Its a brilliant "fuck it" attitude and its worked for me. Give it a try ;)
Theirs a big difference between acing a test and doing what Ichigo's attitude gets him to do. Were talking about going to war against an entire Society thats volumes over any simple test. It's like comparing a pound to a megaton which is why your examples fall apart.

As for that attitude I know people who feel like that and they've failed tests because they believe they could do it but if your a pessimist you'll study a ton for that test even if you don't need to.

It's not a brilliant "Fuck it" attitude it's a Shounen Cliche.

ryanzokuken
September 21, 2008, 07:36 PM
Theirs a big difference between acing a test and doing what Ichigo's attitude gets him to do. Were talking about going to war against an entire Society thats volumes over any simple test. It's like comparing a pound to a megaton which is why your examples fall apart.

As for that attitude I know people who feel like that and they've failed tests because they believe they could do it but if your a pessimist you'll study a ton for that test even if you don't need to.

It's not a brilliant "Fuck it" attitude it's a Shounen Cliche.


his examples don't fall apart. you just disagree with them.


Ichigo has heart, and truckoads of it. he doesn't always just become more powerful from saying "i can't lose here."

this happened against Kenpachi, because he had a near death experience and spoke with Zangetsu in his inner world, and had a new breakthrough with his zanpakuto.

but against Grimmjow, he was given extra motivation by Orihime and Nel cheering for him, and he knew that he couldn't lose to Grimm. no matter what the pain, what the cost, how hard he had to try, he absolutely HAD to win, so he went all out, maximum power, maximum heart, and he was able to pull out a victory. short lived, however, due to Noitora's arrival. the point is, his power didn't grow, he just gave it his all because he couldn't afford not to, and taking it to the edge put him a leg up on Grimmjow. that's why they call it resolve. because that's what it is. resolve. not mysterious power up.

ArmsDealer70
September 22, 2008, 04:21 AM
ichigo will go crazy and kill everyone and then start owniung all espadas and then he becomes the king of evil and controls vastro and vaizards and kills everyone LMAO

Starky-08
September 22, 2008, 09:21 AM
I hate the fact people say "Po is stronger than Koma, because he knocked him hundreds of feet away" it wasn't necisserily said here but in other forums, alot of ppl dislike Koma, because they think he's uber weak, but noone except Kubo knows how strong he is.
Maybe Koma was testing out a Punch from Po to see how strong he is?
I think Koma will pwn him.

The Adamant Dragon
September 22, 2008, 09:34 AM
I hate the fact people say "Po is stronger than Koma, because he knocked him hundreds of feet away" it wasn't necisserily said here but in other forums, alot of ppl dislike Koma, because they think he's uber weak, but noone except Kubo knows how strong he is.
Maybe Koma was testing out a Punch from Po to see how strong he is?
I think Koma will pwn him.

I Couldn't have said it better.

The reason why most people think he's "weak", is because of the fact that he was defeated by AIZEN <--- should it really surprise anyone? Aizen is supposed to be the strongest mofo in bleach Right now, so its Complitely understandable. Kubo used him (koma) in that situation to show the Difference in strengh/Level between Aizen and the Average SS Captain.

We wouldn't have seen Aizen as a big threat otherwise.

Next chapter, Po is over with... Then we can move to more important battles.

Onomatopoeia
September 22, 2008, 09:56 AM
his examples don't fall apart. you just disagree with them.


Ichigo has heart, and truckoads of it. he doesn't always just become more powerful from saying "i can't lose here."

this happened against Kenpachi, because he had a near death experience and spoke with Zangetsu in his inner world, and had a new breakthrough with his zanpakuto.

but against Grimmjow, he was given extra motivation by Orihime and Nel cheering for him, and he knew that he couldn't lose to Grimm. no matter what the pain, what the cost, how hard he had to try, he absolutely HAD to win, so he went all out, maximum power, maximum heart, and he was able to pull out a victory. short lived, however, due to Noitora's arrival. the point is, his power didn't grow, he just gave it his all because he couldn't afford not to, and taking it to the edge put him a leg up on Grimmjow. that's why they call it resolve. because that's what it is. resolve. not mysterious power up.

His example does fall aprt when you try to compare it to something huge. It's not my opinion here it's just that you can't compare getting a good grade on a test because of a "Fuck it" attitude to going to war with an entire Society because of a "Fuck it" attitude. Theirs no way it can be even on the same plain.

Doesn't change the fact that he did say it and in one of his most important battles.

And where exactly does Ichigo every show that much power other then against Zaraki. After he got Bankai he should have fully synchronized with his Zan and should have been able to use the power he used against Zaraki yet he never did.


So what the words "I can't lose here" nearly tripled his power? I can understand a small powerup but your trying to argue that resolution can make Ichigo stronger then when he's Fully Healed,with his Vizard Mask at full, and uninjured he is that much stronger. So with enough resolution Ichigo can beat Aizen? I should also note that his supposed full power Vizard mode did not showcase any building busting slashes. Ichigo at least doubled in power, over anything he's shown. It's ridiculous to argue that Resolution can double or even triple someone's power. 9/10 of it was Mysterious powerup that can't be explained by Lawlz!Resolution.

ryanzokuken
September 22, 2008, 11:18 AM
if you're talking about his fight against Zaraki (i assume you are?), then, where exactly are you getting this "tripled his power" stuff from? after he got back up, Kenpachi was thrilled, he took several unnecessary hits, leaving large slash wounds on his body. and even so, he's Kenpachi. that shit doesn't bother him. he spewed about how much fun this was. Ichigo wasn't any stronger than he was before he got stabbed in the chest. but while he lay there in his own puddle of blood, about to die, he had a new experience in his inner world that gave him another breakthrough and huge step forward in control of his zanpakuto. when he rose and began fighting again, he wasn't "zomg stronger", he just faught better, more skillfully, blocking and dodging and landing more hits.

in the end, the fight came down to a massively powerful charge from Ichigo and Kenpachi. they charged in and gave their final blows, samurai style. Ichigo has always had uber amounts of spirit energy, like Kenpachi, this was nothing new, we saw it even before he knew his zanpakuto's name.

Kenpachi hit him once there at the end, and Ichigo was out.

Kenpachi had the blow he took from the charge, plus many others from moments before that he took needlessly. yet HE was stil standing, and HE walked a good ways away before collapsing.

Ichigo didn't suddenly get godly and own him.

"And where exactly does Ichigo every show that much power other then against Zaraki. After he got Bankai he should have fully synchronized with his Zan and should have been able to use the power he used against Zaraki yet he never did."

so now your view on zanpakuto's and bankai has changed to fit your new point you're trying to make?

you're saying that just because he reached bankai, Ichigo should have been fully synch'd with his zanpakuto and have mastery over it?

when you talk about Hitsugaya, you use his young age and inexperience as an excuse for him. "he hasn't mastered his bankai yet". which is true. it's even said in the series. my point is, he has bankai, and he's not mastered it yet. why would you expect Ichigo, who JUST got his, to have fully mastered it? because you like Hitsu, so you defend him using certain evidence, but when it comes to another argument, regarding Ichigo, the same ideals and general laws of zanpakuto mastery don't apply?

redcometfm
September 22, 2008, 01:54 PM
His example does fall aprt when you try to compare it to something huge. It's not my opinion here it's just that you can't compare getting a good grade on a test because of a "Fuck it" attitude to going to war with an entire Society because of a "Fuck it" attitude. Theirs no way it can be even on the same plain.

Doesn't change the fact that he did say it and in one of his most important battles.

And where exactly does Ichigo every show that much power other then against Zaraki. After he got Bankai he should have fully synchronized with his Zan and should have been able to use the power he used against Zaraki yet he never did.


So what the words "I can't lose here" nearly tripled his power? I can understand a small powerup but your trying to argue that resolution can make Ichigo stronger then when he's Fully Healed,with his Vizard Mask at full, and uninjured he is that much stronger. So with enough resolution Ichigo can beat Aizen? I should also note that his supposed full power Vizard mode did not showcase any building busting slashes. Ichigo at least doubled in power, over anything he's shown. It's ridiculous to argue that Resolution can double or even triple someone's power. 9/10 of it was Mysterious powerup that can't be explained by Lawlz!Resolution.

You're young. Wait a few years to grow up and understand.

hossice
September 22, 2008, 02:58 PM
barragan will be all like "my fraccion is the best, he can knock ur captain that far! u SS punks r a waste of my mens time!"

koma "tenken!"

Po is uberly defeated by koma becuase he was staring at barragan praying and thanking him. XD

i just hope iba goes shikai and shows his command and uses a power. then koma steps in w/ shikai and tag team. maybe ikkaku helps but i hope not really but it would be cool to see his bankai again but for this kind of fight? 3 on 1? ikkaku wouldn't do that would he? i hope he doesn't cuz it would be lame in the situation but nice to see it again w/ a new move. so w/e it doesn't matter w/ ikkaku.

Onomatopoeia
September 22, 2008, 03:09 PM
if you're talking about his fight against Zaraki (i assume you are?), then, where exactly are you getting this "tripled his power" stuff from? after he got back up, Kenpachi was thrilled, he took several unnecessary hits, leaving large slash wounds on his body. and even so, he's Kenpachi. that shit doesn't bother him. he spewed about how much fun this was. Ichigo wasn't any stronger than he was before he got stabbed in the chest. but while he lay there in his own puddle of blood, about to die, he had a new experience in his inner world that gave him another breakthrough and huge step forward in control of his zanpakuto. when he rose and began fighting again, he wasn't "zomg stronger", he just faught better, more skillfully, blocking and dodging and landing more hits.

in the end, the fight came down to a massively powerful charge from Ichigo and Kenpachi. they charged in and gave their final blows, samurai style. Ichigo has always had uber amounts of spirit energy, like Kenpachi, this was nothing new, we saw it even before he knew his zanpakuto's name.

Kenpachi hit him once there at the end, and Ichigo was out.

Kenpachi had the blow he took from the charge, plus many others from moments before that he took needlessly. yet HE was stil standing, and HE walked a good ways away before collapsing.

Ichigo didn't suddenly get godly and own him.

"And where exactly does Ichigo every show that much power other then against Zaraki. After he got Bankai he should have fully synchronized with his Zan and should have been able to use the power he used against Zaraki yet he never did."

so now your view on zanpakuto's and bankai has changed to fit your new point you're trying to make?

you're saying that just because he reached bankai, Ichigo should have been fully synch'd with his zanpakuto and have mastery over it?

when you talk about Hitsugaya, you use his young age and inexperience as an excuse for him. "he hasn't mastered his bankai yet". which is true. it's even said in the series. my point is, he has bankai, and he's not mastered it yet. why would you expect Ichigo, who JUST got his, to have fully mastered it? because you like Hitsu, so you defend him using certain evidence, but when it comes to another argument, regarding Ichigo, the same ideals and general laws of zanpakuto mastery don't apply?

Case of misccomunication I thought you were talking about GJ. Sorry if that sounded confusing then.

Anyways this is my definition of Bankai:

The second form, known as bankai (卍解, bankai? "final release"), can only normally be achieved when a Soul Reaper trains with their zanpakutō for decades. Once achieved the Soul Reaper can unlock their zanpakutō's full potential, increasing their power several times over.[1]

Seems pretty clear to me. If Ichigo gets bankai then he gets full understanding of the sword.


Finally who said that Hitsugaya's Bankai was incomplete? Because I know your not using Shawlong as an example since he knows nothing about SHinigami in general. Seriously he didn't even know about limiters, if you think he can give an accurate analysis of Hitsugaya's Bankai or Bankai's in general when that was the first time he'd seen one :D


@Redcometfm: If I had put my age as 22 instead of 15 then would you be saying that? Your arguement is Age=Wisdom which is a strawman and a fallacy if I've ever seen one.

redcometfm
September 22, 2008, 03:37 PM
@Redcometfm: If I had put my age as 22 instead of 15 then would you be saying that? Your arguement is Age=Wisdom which is a strawman and a fallacy if I've ever seen one.

Then Id have said that you were living a sheltered life to not recognize that philosophy as applicable to life. But since youre 15, you don't have the life experience to know and accept this philosophy. Age does equal wisdom, dont use bs excuses. I used to use those at your age, theyre lame.

ryanzokuken
September 22, 2008, 03:38 PM
barragan will be all like "my fraccion is the best, he can knock ur captain that far! u SS punks r a waste of my mens time!"

koma "tenken!"

Po is uberly defeated by koma becuase he was staring at barragan praying and thanking him. XD

i just hope iba goes shikai and shows his command and uses a power. then koma steps in w/ shikai and tag team. maybe ikkaku helps but i hope not really but it would be cool to see his bankai again but for this kind of fight? 3 on 1? ikkaku wouldn't do that would he? i hope he doesn't cuz it would be lame in the situation but nice to see it again w/ a new move. so w/e it doesn't matter w/ ikkaku.

a squad 11 member, joing in a 3 vs 1 fight? never! :p only if he were the one person fighting the other three.:D

i think Ikkaku is done for now. even if he can still go bankai, his body is pretty messed up, likely injured pretty badly. not only did he get some kind of beating that we weren't shown, but he was also stepped on and crushed a little. i can't see him getting up and swinging around the huge weapons that make up his bankai right now.


Case of misccomunication I thought you were talking about GJ. Sorry if that sounded confusing then.

Anyways this is my definition of Bankai:


Seems pretty clear to me. If Ichigo gets bankai then he gets full understanding of the sword.


Finally who said that Hitsugaya's Bankai was incomplete? Because I know your not using Shawlong as an example since he knows nothing about SHinigami in general. Seriously he didn't even know about limiters, if you think he can give an accurate analysis of Hitsugaya's Bankai or Bankai's in general when that was the first time he'd seen one :D


@Redcometfm: If I had put my age as 22 instead of 15 then would you be saying that? Your arguement is Age=Wisdom which is a strawman and a fallacy if I've ever seen one.

A) the very quote you used yourself says "Once achieved the Soul Reaper can unlock their zanpakutō's full potential, increasing their power several times over"
that doesn't mean they've reached their full potential the moment they achieve bankai.

look at Renji. when he tried to take on Byakuya, Byakuya destroyed him and gave him a little lesson in bankai. he told Renji that just because he now had a bankai, didn't mean he was ready to face a captain, and then he proceeded to tell him about how even after achieving bankai, it takes years and years or training to fully master your bankai and become fully familiar with your zanpakuto.

Hitsugaya is young and hasn't been a captain long. more than likely still inexperienced bankai user as well. otherwise he might actually win some fights now and then. granted, it's not all his fault. ice is just useless in bleach, but still, come on, kid.

Shawlong's commentary so far is the only logical explanation we have on Hitsu's ice flowers and bankai. he may be wrong about it all, but he was an intelligent fellow, even before becoming an arrancar. until we are further filled in on Hitsu's bankai and Shawlong is proved wrong, i'm gonna take his word. the whole point of him giving his explanation was probably just a little way of filling the audience in a bit more about Hitsu's bankai.

B) age does equal wisdom. that is not to say that you are unintelligent or have no authority. but it's a fact of life. that being said, this is bleach, and these are just forums regarding bleach. there's no reason to take things so seriously and it certainly doesn't take someone with age, experience, and wisdom to comprehend something as trivial as an anime. but regarding philosophies and ways of life and real life experiences, you'd probably do well to listen to redcometfm.

Raizen
September 22, 2008, 07:08 PM
Whoa, I think everyone here needs to chillax. hahaha

I don't really understand what the argument here is but from what I have read, ryanzokuken is correct. Attaining a skills and perfecting it is 2 completely different thing.

As for what happens next, hopefully koma faze off the attack like nothing and finish the enemy w/ one strike so that we don't have to question his skills, well much question. :p

Hockeychaoz
September 22, 2008, 07:13 PM
Whoa, I think everyone here needs to chillax. hahaha

I don't really understand what the argument here is but from what I have read, ryanzokuken is correct. Attaining a skills and perfecting it is 2 completely different thing.

As for what happens next, hopefully koma faze off the attack like nothing and finish the enemy w/ one strike so that we don't have to question his skills, well much question. :p

It makes me kinda unhappy that Koma is screwed.
I want to see him as a sick captain that's really strong and such but this battle won't do it.

Theres 2 outcomes I see:

Komamaru kills Po without releasing. Everyone says..
"Well, he a captain should be able to handle a fraccion without releasing."

Komamaru releases, releases anything. Hell, releases a notch on his belt.
"OMG HES WEAK!! LOLOL CAPTAIN? MORE LIKE CRAPTAIN."

[edit] On the whole age thing, I think that is a pretty weak fact to hide behind. Especially since just by reading Onomatopoeia's posts, I'm fairly certain he's smarter than me lol.

Raizen
September 22, 2008, 07:19 PM
It makes me kinda unhappy that Koma is screwed.
I want to see him as a sick captain that's really strong and such but this battle won't do it.

Theres 2 outcomes I see:

Komamaru kills Po without releasing. Everyone says..
"Well, he a captain should be able to handle a fraccion without releasing."

Komamaru releases, releases anything. Hell, releases a notch on his belt.
"OMG HES WEAK!! LOLOL CAPTAIN? MORE LIKE CRAPTAIN."
That is so true. lol

I think what makes him so vulnerable to criticism is b/c he doesn't have the cool demeanor of some of the other captains. And he is a fox? WTF. How is an animal a captain. Not only that his blind faith and bland bankai leaves much to be desired.

ryanzokuken
September 22, 2008, 07:23 PM
bah. don't worry guys. Koma will probably climb his furry ass out of the wall of some crumbled building that he flew into, unharmed, save for a few scratches. he'll probably return to the fray with a single bound (he seems to be a hell of a jumper. note him leaping away when Tousen was using bankai, and also note his arrival at soukyoku hill. he just sort of...smash-landed behind Aizen, as if he had leapt there from elsewhere.)

if he releases, i wouldn't consider him weak under two conditions.

shikai. big deal, Po isn't the ordinary fraccion, so if he needs his shikai, then that's fine.

bankai. this will be ok ONLY IF he destroyssss Po with it right away. like, no more than three attacks. how sweet would a bankai-one-hit-K.O. be after all Po's build up?:D i can see that massive sword coming down like a meteorite and cutting/crushing Po right down the middle.

Hockeychaoz
September 22, 2008, 07:41 PM
That is so true. lol

I think what makes him so vulnerable to criticism is b/c he doesn't have the cool demeanor of some of the other captains. And he is a fox? WTF. How is an animal a captain. Not only that his blind faith and bland bankai leaves much to be desired.

I'm still waiting for Kubo to fix that mistake. Like next chapter we just see a man emerge from the rubble where Koma was punched to.
Then 1 page saying.. "Koma is now a man. It all started when I drew a man with long hair badly at one of the first captain meetings, and it all snowballed."

[edit] I disagree about the bland bankai part. I think it's pretty sick, it takes the whole idea of "bankai is big" to a new degree.

Raizen
September 22, 2008, 07:47 PM
I'm still waiting for Kubo to fix that mistake. Like next chapter we just see a man emerge from the rubble where Koma was punched to.
Then 1 page saying.. "Koma is now a man. It all started when I drew a man with long hair badly at one of the first captain meetings, and it all snowballed."

[edit] I disagree about the bland bankai part. I think it's pretty sick, it takes the whole idea of "bankai is big" to a new degree.
His bankai is basically a huge version of himself. What he does the bankai does. So if he is incapacitated, his bankai is useless. And if the enemy is too fast how can he catch them. From what we have seen of his banksi, it is probably the weakest one

Can't wait to see the remaining bankai

Hockeychaoz
September 22, 2008, 08:14 PM
His bankai is basically a huge version of himself. What he does the bankai does. So if he is incapacitated, his bankai is useless. And if the enemy is too fast how can he catch them. From what we have seen of his banksi, it is probably the weakest one

Can't wait to see the remaining bankai

We've only ever seen his bankai that one time. There's gotta be more to it.

ryanzokuken
September 22, 2008, 08:26 PM
I'm still waiting for Kubo to fix that mistake. Like next chapter we just see a man emerge from the rubble where Koma was punched to.
Then 1 page saying.. "Koma is now a man. It all started when I drew a man with long hair badly at one of the first captain meetings, and it all snowballed."

[edit] I disagree about the bland bankai part. I think it's pretty sick, it takes the whole idea of "bankai is big" to a new degree.

in the early captain's meetings, he always had his helmet thing on. his dog face was originally revealed when Kenpachi broke the helmet off him.

xXAshisogiJizoXx
September 22, 2008, 08:27 PM
Yay, my first post, anyways...
Hopes for the next chapter, Iba shows us some moves before Sajin uses his shikai to hopefully kill Po in one move. Even though this is much too brutal for him, I'd like it if he used the left hand of his giant to just strangle Po :squish. From Koma's punch, I interpreted that Po had blubbery skin that would probably give him incredible defense (like he has a "soft" hierro, so it reflects some power back, and cushoins the rest or somthing). So Koma would sit back to analyze his opponent (like Ken vs. Noi) and see that strangling Po was the only way and "that his own defense brought it upon him" or some kick ass line like that. Cuz Sajin definetly needs some development in the peronality department, we got his beleifs and a breif history, now for some attitude.

As for after these pillar fights, I wanna know what the hell is happenning in HM; what Mayuri found in Szayel's lab, how Rukia is doing against Rudobone (who i hope is dangerous, like a sort of tactician/commander who puts his men to good use plus his own skill), and what all of the other captains are doing.

Onomatopoeia
September 22, 2008, 08:33 PM
a squad 11 member, joing in a 3 vs 1 fight? never! :p only if he were the one person fighting the other three.:D

i think Ikkaku is done for now. even if he can still go bankai, his body is pretty messed up, likely injured pretty badly. not only did he get some kind of beating that we weren't shown, but he was also stepped on and crushed a little. i can't see him getting up and swinging around the huge weapons that make up his bankai right now.



A) the very quote you used yourself says "Once achieved the Soul Reaper can unlock their zanpakutō's full potential, increasing their power several times over"
that doesn't mean they've reached their full potential the moment they achieve bankai.

look at Renji. when he tried to take on Byakuya, Byakuya destroyed him and gave him a little lesson in bankai. he told Renji that just because he now had a bankai, didn't mean he was ready to face a captain, and then he proceeded to tell him about how even after achieving bankai, it takes years and years or training to fully master your bankai and become fully familiar with your zanpakuto.

Hitsugaya is young and hasn't been a captain long. more than likely still inexperienced bankai user as well. otherwise he might actually win some fights now and then. granted, it's not all his fault. ice is just useless in bleach, but still, come on, kid.

Shawlong's commentary so far is the only logical explanation we have on Hitsu's ice flowers and bankai. he may be wrong about it all, but he was an intelligent fellow, even before becoming an arrancar. until we are further filled in on Hitsu's bankai and Shawlong is proved wrong, i'm gonna take his word. the whole point of him giving his explanation was probably just a little way of filling the audience in a bit more about Hitsu's bankai.

B) age does equal wisdom. that is not to say that you are unintelligent or have no authority. but it's a fact of life. that being said, this is bleach, and these are just forums regarding bleach. there's no reason to take things so seriously and it certainly doesn't take someone with age, experience, and wisdom to comprehend something as trivial as an anime. but regarding philosophies and ways of life and real life experiences, you'd probably do well to listen to redcometfm.

Were talking about the same guy who in less then 30 days can equal people who have trained for 100+ years. That same guy has about 3 months before the GJ fight. It’s crazy not to suspect that he maxed out his Zan’s spiritual power and was able to fight on equal power to the Kenpachi fight. Not only that but he wasn’t able to cut GJs skin the first time they fought, why didn’t he get any upgrades from his Zan? Theirs a reason why he had to go Vizard to defeat GJ and didn’t just train his Bankai a lot if that was all that was needed. To put it simply Ichigo was already very well trained with his Bankai and even if he did get that final amount it wouldn’t have changed jack. He needed a new way to train.

Next your example is extremely flawed, your using Renji and as far as I know Renji used the normal way to train for Bankai, Ichigo used Tenshintai(anyone know whether I got that right?) and Tenshintai=/= Normal way. In other words Byakuya was talking about Renji’s way of using Bankai, Ichigo’s way of training for Bankai probably gives him much more mastery of his Zan so you can’t take the knowledge that Byakuya gave us on Renji’s Bankai and apply it to Ichigo(the guy’s made out of exceptions). Not only that but the moment a person reaches Bankai they probably are also close to maxing out their Zan’s power.

Heck your example with Renji gives a person a good idea of the difference in mastery between Ichigo and Renji because Ichigo was able to fight evenly with Byakuya, more or less, while Renji lost badly. That alone should give people an idea of the mastery that Ichigo has thanks to Tenshintai or whatever it’s called.

As for Hitsugaya this is where your example with Renji is actually useful, Hitsugaya has had Bankai for longer then Renji, this is a fact. Yet even in Renji’s first time fighting Byakuya as far as I know he never showed a time limit for how long his Bankai could be active. Common sense dictates that it someone has more time to train their Bankai then they’ll have a higher mastery of it, in other words if Renji’s first time activating it didn’t have a time limit then Hitsugaya who has activated it multiple times(probably) shouldn’t have any time limit till how long his Bankai is active, unless this time limit isn’t what we’ve been led to believe. It makes sense after all Hitsugaya never agreed with what Shawlong said and Shawlong proved himself to be a very bad source of info, with limiters.

Intelligence can be measured by an accurate IQ test. Their’s a reason why an IQ test is only good if it can apply to children as well as adults, see Mensa Test for example. Unless were talking about huge differences like 10+ years where it actually matters then yes Age can effect the IQ forumla. But this does not bar that many younger people can be smarter then Older people even if the difference is great because their mental age is that great.

Dear Jesus my internet is acting all fucked up suddenly...

Oh and Hello AshisogiJizo. Awesome name, Mayuri your favorite character?

xXAshisogiJizoXx
September 22, 2008, 08:54 PM
Yes Ono, Mayuri is my favorite, followed closely by Aaroniero (I noticed i tend to like the freaks...:confused:)

as for Koma's bankai, i know physics don;t really apply much in bleach, but if his bankai imitates his moves exactly, then it should actually be quite fast considering how its large frame has to keep up with Koma ( like how an ant takes one step a whole lot faster then a human can, but imagine if a human took steps at the same rate of an ant, combined with a human's size, would make that person as fast as a race car) As for Hitsu's bankai, i think it is a bit immature because, despite the fact he has had it longer then someone like Renji, i think Hitsu's Zanpakto is a whole lot more powerful then Renji's Baboon, and thus more difficult to control. Also, his age still probably plays a factor in it too, no matter how mature his personality is.

My favorite part about bleach: it is so inconsistent that almost anything and everything is debatable

k0dach1
September 22, 2008, 09:36 PM
Could it be that Kisuke & Co., Vizards and the Daddy's are in the real Karakura Town in SS?

Waiting for Aizen and Espada to arrive?

I find it logical that they were carted away to SS along with the rest of the town.
Second line of defense much?

At least it explains why they aren't part of the battle yet?

Hockeychaoz
September 22, 2008, 09:56 PM
Next your example is extremely flawed, your using Renji and as far as I know Renji used the normal way to train for Bankai, Ichigo used Tenshintai(anyone know whether I got that right?) and Tenshintai=/= Normal way. In other words Byakuya was talking about Renji’s way of using Bankai, Ichigo’s way of training for Bankai probably gives him much more mastery of his Zan so you can’t take the knowledge that Byakuya gave us on Renji’s Bankai and apply it to Ichigo(the guy’s made out of exceptions). Not only that but the moment a person reaches Bankai they probably are also close to maxing out their Zan’s power.

Heck your example with Renji gives a person a good idea of the difference in mastery between Ichigo and Renji because Ichigo was able to fight evenly with Byakuya, more or less, while Renji lost badly. That alone should give people an idea of the mastery that Ichigo has thanks to Tenshintai or whatever it’s called.



I think that the 2 ways of acquiring Bankai are equal. It's just that Ichigo's bankai was more effective against Byakuya than Renji's. Renji has a straight power type zan, and Byakuya kinda poops on that type especially because of his speed and need to not even get close to his opponents.

I don't think that Ichigo has mastered his bankai, neither has Renji, they're both going to need a lot of training to understand how all of it works. I'm still confident that Tenza Zangetsu still has more to show than just a speed upgrade.

ryanzokuken
September 22, 2008, 10:14 PM
Were talking about the same guy who in less then 30 days can equal people who have trained for 100+ years. That same guy has about 3 months before the GJ fight. It’s crazy not to suspect that he maxed out his Zan’s spiritual power and was able to fight on equal power to the Kenpachi fight. Not only that but he wasn’t able to cut GJs skin the first time they fought, why didn’t he get any upgrades from his Zan? Theirs a reason why he had to go Vizard to defeat GJ and didn’t just train his Bankai a lot if that was all that was needed. To put it simply Ichigo was already very well trained with his Bankai and even if he did get that final amount it wouldn’t have changed jack. He needed a new way to train.

Next your example is extremely flawed, your using Renji and as far as I know Renji used the normal way to train for Bankai, Ichigo used Tenshintai(anyone know whether I got that right?) and Tenshintai=/= Normal way. In other words Byakuya was talking about Renji’s way of using Bankai, Ichigo’s way of training for Bankai probably gives him much more mastery of his Zan so you can’t take the knowledge that Byakuya gave us on Renji’s Bankai and apply it to Ichigo(the guy’s made out of exceptions). Not only that but the moment a person reaches Bankai they probably are also close to maxing out their Zan’s power.

Heck your example with Renji gives a person a good idea of the difference in mastery between Ichigo and Renji because Ichigo was able to fight evenly with Byakuya, more or less, while Renji lost badly. That alone should give people an idea of the mastery that Ichigo has thanks to Tenshintai or whatever it’s called.

As for Hitsugaya this is where your example with Renji is actually useful, Hitsugaya has had Bankai for longer then Renji, this is a fact. Yet even in Renji’s first time fighting Byakuya as far as I know he never showed a time limit for how long his Bankai could be active. Common sense dictates that it someone has more time to train their Bankai then they’ll have a higher mastery of it, in other words if Renji’s first time activating it didn’t have a time limit then Hitsugaya who has activated it multiple times(probably) shouldn’t have any time limit till how long his Bankai is active, unless this time limit isn’t what we’ve been led to believe. It makes sense after all Hitsugaya never agreed with what Shawlong said and Shawlong proved himself to be a very bad source of info, with limiters.

Intelligence can be measured by an accurate IQ test. Their’s a reason why an IQ test is only good if it can apply to children as well as adults, see Mensa Test for example. Unless were talking about huge differences like 10+ years where it actually matters then yes Age can effect the IQ forumla. But this does not bar that many younger people can be smarter then Older people even if the difference is great because their mental age is that great.

Dear Jesus my internet is acting all fucked up suddenly...

Oh and Hello AshisogiJizo. Awesome name, Mayuri your favorite character?


actually the reason Ichigo learned to control his inner hollow and use his mask wasn't just because his zan is maxed out and can't go any further. it's just that....well...Zangetsu hasn't been around for him to develope or learn more to further master his zanpakuto. Ogichi was there, in place of old man Zangetsu. Ichigo had to first get him out of there.

we will see more of Zangetsu, and more zanpakuto power up and mastery from Ichigo.

and regarding your IQ bit, first of all, IQ stands for Intelligence Quotient, and it doesn't just measure your intelligence, it measures your CAPACITY for intelligence. bringing it up doesn't help what you're trying to say.

and besides that, we said that age = wisdom, not intelligence. wisdom is not the same thing as intelligence. wisdom comes from experience, which comes with age.

for all your intelligence, you lack reason and humility. i've seen you be proven wrong on a handful of occasions on these boards, a few of them my own doing, as we always seem to disagree and argue about everything. not once have you accepted and learned from your mistakes, instead, you always just continue to argue, bicker, even, and say anything you can to still try to make yourself seem correct.

facts are facts, truth is truth, things are what they are. and, here's a piece of wisdom, from someone with a couple years more of it than you. at some point in your life, sooner, better than later, you need to learn to accept when you're wrong and learn from mistakes and be thankful to whoever helped you correct yourself. just because you like someone or something, or you want things to be a certain way, doesn't mean it's going to be whatever you want. your opinion doesn't change facts or truth. what you want isn't always what IS. your own say-so isn't enough to justly finish an arguement or prove anything. your "that's it, that's the end, because i said so" attitude is a flaw you will do well in life to get rid of.

wow this post has been outrageously off topic. you may not even get to see it, as it might just end up being removed or edited by a mod. :p sorry mods!

but yea, don't take everything so seriously here. relax, there's no reason to turn a discussion into an argument just because you disagree. and even if it does turn to an argument, there's no need to make it a fierce, personal battle. :p disagreements and arguments, sure, but it's not like anyone here are enemies here on these forums. we're all just bleach fans, and when there's this many of us, views and opinions are bound to differ. :p

craig
September 22, 2008, 10:25 PM
Then Id have said that you were living a sheltered life to not recognize that philosophy as applicable to life. But since youre 15, you don't have the life experience to know and accept this philosophy. Age does equal wisdom, dont use bs excuses. I used to use those at your age, theyre lame.

Age does not equal wisdom. Experience equals wisdom. A higher age just means you have more chances to gain wisdom, but it guarantees none. Therefore saying that age equals wisdom is a statement of averages and stereotypes rather than individual comparisons. While generally true, it does not hold up to case-by-case scrutiny.

redcometfm
September 23, 2008, 08:22 AM
Age does not equal wisdom. Experience equals wisdom. A higher age just means you have more chances to gain wisdom, but it guarantees none. Therefore saying that age equals wisdom is a statement of averages and stereotypes rather than individual comparisons. While generally true, it does not hold up to case-by-case scrutiny.

Good point. Now that I can admit to.

stevenash
September 23, 2008, 12:56 PM
I think Komamura is actually a man born with a wolf's face...I don't think he's an animal soul turn into soul reaper...:P....or maybe he's from Penguin village.....:P

bloodrage
September 23, 2008, 02:27 PM
why is he the only one that look like that though?

Doombot
September 23, 2008, 03:00 PM
He has a wolf's face for the very simple fact that he died on a full moon! Count it!

Onomatopoeia
September 23, 2008, 03:39 PM
He has a wolf's face for the very simple fact that he died on a full moon! Count it!

All dogs go to Heaven;)

craig
September 23, 2008, 04:39 PM
Good point. Now that I can admit to.

Just reading back on your initial comment - I do agree that focus / resolve is equal to a powerup. When you disregard fears and commit 100% of your physical and mental resources to anything, the shit you can accomplish will really amaze you. Until that point, you're holding back - consciously or not.

Onomatopoeia
September 23, 2008, 05:11 PM
THis has always bothered me so I just kinda ignored it until now but how did Kommamaru get into SS? I mean he sure as hell ain't a werewolf.

@Craig: THis isn't One Piece(where Resolve is everything) and even then Luffy who's got literal Fucktons of Resolve can't triple his power. YOu can accomplish a little bit more with resolve but multiplying your power by thrice or even twice is kind of ridiculous. I also don't think that Ichigo was actually scared, where did you get that he was afraid? He seemed pretty brave to me...

En Yang Ji
September 23, 2008, 05:34 PM
Were talking about the same guy who in less then 30 days can equal people who have trained for 100+ years. That same guy has about 3 months before the GJ fight. It’s crazy not to suspect that he maxed out his Zan’s spiritual power and was able to fight on equal power to the Kenpachi fight. Not only that but he wasn’t able to cut GJs skin the first time they fought, why didn’t he get any upgrades from his Zan? Theirs a reason why he had to go Vizard to defeat GJ and didn’t just train his Bankai a lot if that was all that was needed. To put it simply Ichigo was already very well trained with his Bankai and even if he did get that final amount it wouldn’t have changed jack. He needed a new way to train.

Next your example is extremely flawed, your using Renji and as far as I know Renji used the normal way to train for Bankai, Ichigo used Tenshintai(anyone know whether I got that right?) and Tenshintai=/= Normal way. In other words Byakuya was talking about Renji’s way of using Bankai, Ichigo’s way of training for Bankai probably gives him much more mastery of his Zan so you can’t take the knowledge that Byakuya gave us on Renji’s Bankai and apply it to Ichigo(the guy’s made out of exceptions). Not only that but the moment a person reaches Bankai they probably are also close to maxing out their Zan’s power.

Heck your example with Renji gives a person a good idea of the difference in mastery between Ichigo and Renji because Ichigo was able to fight evenly with Byakuya, more or less, while Renji lost badly. That alone should give people an idea of the mastery that Ichigo has thanks to Tenshintai or whatever it’s called.

As for Hitsugaya this is where your example with Renji is actually useful, Hitsugaya has had Bankai for longer then Renji, this is a fact. Yet even in Renji’s first time fighting Byakuya as far as I know he never showed a time limit for how long his Bankai could be active. Common sense dictates that it someone has more time to train their Bankai then they’ll have a higher mastery of it, in other words if Renji’s first time activating it didn’t have a time limit then Hitsugaya who has activated it multiple times(probably) shouldn’t have any time limit till how long his Bankai is active, unless this time limit isn’t what we’ve been led to believe. It makes sense after all Hitsugaya never agreed with what Shawlong said and Shawlong proved himself to be a very bad source of info, with limiters.

Intelligence can be measured by an accurate IQ test. Their’s a reason why an IQ test is only good if it can apply to children as well as adults, see Mensa Test for example. Unless were talking about huge differences like 10+ years where it actually matters then yes Age can effect the IQ forumla. But this does not bar that many younger people can be smarter then Older people even if the difference is great because their mental age is that great.

Dear Jesus my internet is acting all fucked up suddenly...

Oh and Hello AshisogiJizo. Awesome name, Mayuri your favorite character?


The only thing Tenshintai does is materialize the zanpakatou. Most likely, the reason that there's a huge difference in power between Renji and Ichigo, is because the different ways they were taught. Ichigo was taught by Urahara and Zangetsu.

Urahara taught Ichigo how he can change his perspective by changing the way he thinks. Certain thoughts lead to certain emotions. " I'm afraid of getting cut", "I'm afraid of cutting others", I'm afraid of losing what's important". These thoughts direct your mind towards what your afraid of, to what causes the emotion, fear, and in this way they cause more fear. This holds true for other emotions. If Ichigo thought instead "I won't let myself get cut", "I will cut my opponent", and "I'll protect what's important to me" he can cultivate emotions such as courage and deepen his resolve. Resolve is what gives you the strength to let go of things of lesser importantance, so can pursue the one goal that's most important to you. The most important thing for Ichigo was to save Rukia. His pain, his fear, and his life were of lesser importance. No matter what it took, Ichigo was willing to give it up for his all important goal.

Ichigo is amazing in that he was able to change the way he thinks nearly instantly after a little coaching from Urahara. Using what he learned from Urahara as a basis he could grow substantially from bankai training.

Apparently each shinigami goes through different Bankai training. Yoruichi said that Zangetsu can choose the method of training. I believe this is one of the main reasons why Ichigo is so much stronger than Renji. Zangetsu's training cut away at Ichigo's weakness. Each sword represented one of Ichigo weaknesses. To find the true Zangetsu, he had to overcome all of those weaknesses. Zangetsu's training is similar to meditation in that it helped Ichigo to identify and overcome his weaknesses.

There's that and Ichigo bankai doesn't have the weakness of most. The reason Byakuya said it takes ten additional years of training is because of their gigantic size. Ichigo's bankai doesn't have this problem, it's the size of a regular katana.

Still Ichigo wasn't able to master his zanpakatou. His hollow side commented on how the reiatsu from his Bankai broke his bones.

hajialibaig
September 23, 2008, 06:17 PM
Renji is a 3rd-class citizen from the rukon district, while Ichigo's dad is an elite Shinigami...that the main reason why Ichigo >>> Renji...

Anyway, this last chapter was pretty interesting I must say. I was almost gonna die seeing those fan-boy fights go on for weeks.. and they were such a waste. But finally we got to see a captain in action... it might be the fox/dog guy for now, but it's a good sign of the things to come. Hopefully we will get to see the Espada vs. Captains soon.

Onomatopoeia
September 23, 2008, 06:22 PM
The only thing Tenshintai does is materialize the zanpakatou. Most likely, the reason that there's a huge difference in power between Renji and Ichigo, is because the different ways they were taught. Ichigo was taught by Urahara and Zangetsu.

Urahara taught Ichigo how he can change his perspective by changing the way he thinks. Certain thoughts lead to certain emotions. " I'm afraid of getting cut", "I'm afraid of cutting others", I'm afraid of losing what's important". These thoughts direct your mind towards what your afraid of, to what causes the emotion, fear, and in this way they cause more fear. This holds true for other emotions. If Ichigo thought instead "I won't let myself get cut", "I will cut my opponent", and "I'll protect what's important to me" he can cultivate emotions such as courage and deepen his resolve. Resolve is what gives you the strength to let go of things of lesser importantance, so can pursue the one goal that's most important to you. The most important thing for Ichigo was to save Rukia. His pain, his fear, and his life were of lesser importance. No matter what it took, Ichigo was willing to give it up for his all important goal.

Ichigo is amazing in that he was able to change the way he thinks nearly instantly after a little coaching from Urahara. Using what he learned from Urahara as a basis he could grow substantially from bankai training.

Apparently each shinigami goes through different Bankai training. Yoruichi said that Zangetsu can choose the method of training. I believe this is one of the main reasons why Ichigo is so much stronger than Renji. Zangetsu's training cut away at Ichigo's weakness. Each sword represented one of Ichigo weaknesses. To find the true Zangetsu, he had to overcome all of those weaknesses. Zangetsu's training is similar to meditation in that it helped Ichigo to identify and overcome his weaknesses.

There's that and Ichigo bankai doesn't have the weakness of most. The reason Byakuya said it takes ten additional years of training is because of their gigantic size. Ichigo's bankai doesn't have this problem, it's the size of a regular katana.

Still Ichigo wasn't able to master his zanpakatou. His hollow side commented on how the reiatsu from his Bankai broke his bones.

Your last example is good in fact it's very good but the problem is that I'm not arguing over the Ichigo vs Byakuya fight... I'm arguing about the GJ vs Ichigo fight, where Ichigo did not showcase the whole Bones breaking problem which only strengthens my arguement.

Seriously I'd have to be crazy to try and argue that Ichigo had mastered Bankai during the Ichigo vs Byakuya fight, even he's not that good.

ANyways as for Tenshiten you don't have proof that Ichigo doesn't gain more mastery over his Bankai by training that way. Heck I could twist your arguement a little and say that Ichigo's training is actually training to master Bankai because he has to be able to go faster thanks to the training from Zangetsu. Thanks to the constant fighting against Zangetsu Ichigo understood his Sword more and because of this was able to gain more understanding and thus more mastery of Zangetsu then Renji that way... Not that I really care.

As for your Resolve arguement I'm pretty sure Ichigo's more important goal was saving Orihime in the first place... I don't really see how saying "I can't be hurt anymore" changes anything. And seriously Luffy's Resolve>>>> Ichigo no joke, and if his power doesn't get at least tripled then theirs no way Ichigo's power can be tripled by resolve. Their was defintely a powerup in that fight(Ichigo suddenly destroying GJ when seconds ago he was being mutilated is a powerup)

bloodrage
September 23, 2008, 06:34 PM
i don't know why ppl in mangas don't fight with their full strength from the begining it would be more effective i hope this chapter has more action than talking like the last at the rate this is going their will be another bleach filler b4 they start back with the cannon version

Onomatopoeia
September 23, 2008, 07:34 PM
ANyone gonna answer my question about Kommamaru or what? I really want to know how in hell a fox guy became a Soul since we haven't seen a single Dog(I think) nor have we seen any other Animal Shinigami. Is this some sort of plothole or is it gonna be answered with a flashback?

xXAshisogiJizoXx
September 23, 2008, 07:48 PM
Well, why does aaroniero have two heads in a glass jar? It has nothing to do with his ability cuz he has thousands of souls, not just kaien and meta-wutever, and his head is certainly much stranger then Sajin's. Yet we will never get that answer,...cuz he's dead

I suspect the same deal for Sajin's head

Raizen
September 23, 2008, 09:19 PM
Well, why does aaroniero have two heads in a glass jar? It has nothing to do with his ability cuz he has thousands of souls, not just kaien and meta-wutever, and his head is certainly much stranger then Sajin's. Yet we will never get that answer,...cuz he's dead

I suspect the same deal for Sajin's head
Yeah, but I thought only human souls go to SS. If that is wrong fine, but how does an animal spirit have the skills to make it into the academy let alone become a captain. But enough of that, I think that Koma gets up and finish off the fraccion only to have other fraccions showing up.

Hockeychaoz
September 23, 2008, 09:20 PM
ANyone gonna answer my question about Kommamaru or what? I really want to know how in hell a fox guy became a Soul since we haven't seen a single Dog(I think) nor have we seen any other Animal Shinigami. Is this some sort of plothole or is it gonna be answered with a flashback?

I'm sure its not a plothole.
As to why, we might never get a answer. I think it's just one of those... "He's there, just accept it" sorta deals.
[hr]

Yeah, but I thought only human souls go to SS. If that is wrong fine, but how does an animal spirit have the skills to make it into the academy let alone become a captain. But enough of that, I think that Koma gets up and finish off the fraccion only to have other fraccions showing up.

Komamaru vs all remaining Fraccion? Sounds plausible to have a giant with a bunch of smaller hollow climbing it and such. Could be good to read.

Gah! I'm so happy we get to possibly see Komamaru's bankai next week. The more I think about it, the more I like it. Its just absurdly huge.

Tsukisama
September 23, 2008, 09:45 PM
is the bleach manga taking a break as well as the anime, or are the spoilers just late this week?

The spoilers aren't late. We typically don't get spoilers for Bleach until Wednesday anyway. (For those not in my timezone, we usually get spoilers for Bleach around 8 hours from now.) So, I wouldn't be so impatient. Unless Kubo says that there isn't a chapter in an upcoming week, then you should expect that there will be a chapter.

Bigfish
September 23, 2008, 10:11 PM
I could be wrong, but isn't a common element of Japanese story telling that often, things are put out as just being that way, while in America every thing has to have a "why" behind it?

En Yang Ji
September 23, 2008, 10:21 PM
Your last example is good in fact it's very good but the problem is that I'm not arguing over the Ichigo vs Byakuya fight... I'm arguing about the GJ vs Ichigo fight, where Ichigo did not showcase the whole Bones breaking problem which only strengthens my arguement.

Seriously I'd have to be crazy to try and argue that Ichigo had mastered Bankai during the Ichigo vs Byakuya fight, even he's not that good.

ANyways as for Tenshiten you don't have proof that Ichigo doesn't gain more mastery over his Bankai by training that way. Heck I could twist your arguement a little and say that Ichigo's training is actually training to master Bankai because he has to be able to go faster thanks to the training from Zangetsu. Thanks to the constant fighting against Zangetsu Ichigo understood his Sword more and because of this was able to gain more understanding and thus more mastery of Zangetsu then Renji that way... Not that I really care.

As for your Resolve arguement I'm pretty sure Ichigo's more important goal was saving Orihime in the first place... I don't really see how saying "I can't be hurt anymore" changes anything. And seriously Luffy's Resolve>>>> Ichigo no joke, and if his power doesn't get at least tripled then theirs no way Ichigo's power can be tripled by resolve. Their was defintely a powerup in that fight(Ichigo suddenly destroying GJ when seconds ago he was being mutilated is a powerup)

I agree that Ichigo's bankai training allowed him to become more efficient with his zanpakatou, but I doubt he could master it before the fight with Grimmjaw. The Tenshiten allows a shinigami to materialize their zanpakatou spirit. Also the method of bankai training a shinigami goes through is apparently decided by the Zanpakatou.

Renji already was able to materialize his spirit and they both had a 3 day time limit to achieve bankai and save Rukia. The difference between them is the method of training, with Ichigo's training decided by his Zanpakatou. Tenshiten wasn't the deciding factor in the method of training, Zangetsu was.

Ichigo did become familiar with his sword, but I think what he mastered during the bankai training was his self. Yoruichi commented on how he's learning at a frightening pace and that he holds his stance even when his sword broken.

This is just my opinion, but most likely, the Zanpakatou decides the Bankai training based on the shinigami's potential. Renji asked Yoruichi if Ichigo would be able to achieve bankai, having already gone so far. This suggests that Ichigo already went further than Renji did, even though he hadn't achieved Bankai yet. Even Urahara said Ichigo is more talented than himself.


I was referring to Soul Society when I said saving Rukia was Ichigo's most important goal.


Through your thoughts you can change how you percieve the world. If instead of thinking "I can't do this" you think "I will do this", "I can do this" and believe it, you would believe in your own ability, and your own power. With that belief you can be courageous.

If you didn't believe "I could do this" would you feel courageous? Courage is a emotion, but it doesn't come out of nowhere. Many times, thoughts such as "I can accomplish my goal", or "I can do this" precede that emotion.

You choose with your own volition what thoughts you pursue. What you decide to think about is up to you. If you decide to think mostly about the good things that happened in the world, you would most likely be cheerful because your optimistic. If on the other hand you decide to think mostly of the bad things that happened in your life, you most likely would feel depressed because your pessimestic.

By thinking of things that cause you to feel courageous, cheerful or depressed, you cultivate that emotion. But, you have the chose of what to think about. That's why Ichigo could be courageous, because he chose to think thoughts that made him more courageous.

Also, emotions such anger and depression, lead you to think of things that make that emotion stronger. While angry at someone it's easy to think of all the bad things they've done to you, and become more angry. Depression, can keep you thinking of dark thoughts, that keep you very depressed.

It's like this: Strong Emotion > more thoughts that cultivate that emotion> stronger emotion> more of similar thoughts.

It's hard to change old emotional habits and thinking patterns.

Ichigo deepened his resolve by overcoming fear.

Anyway Ichigo and Grimmjaw were near even in power. Grimmjaw was getting more hits in, but Ichigo was able summon up enough resolve to withstand his pain and push himself to his limits. So, it's not suprising Ichigo won.

craig
September 23, 2008, 10:35 PM
THis has always bothered me so I just kinda ignored it until now but how did Kommamaru get into SS? I mean he sure as hell ain't a werewolf.

@Craig: THis isn't One Piece(where Resolve is everything) and even then Luffy who's got literal Fucktons of Resolve can't triple his power. YOu can accomplish a little bit more with resolve but multiplying your power by thrice or even twice is kind of ridiculous. I also don't think that Ichigo was actually scared, where did you get that he was afraid? He seemed pretty brave to me...

'Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgement that something else is more important than fear.' - Ambrose Redmoon

Which fight are you talking about specifically? The best example I have right off the bat is his fight with GJ in Chapter 283 (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/283/01/). During the fight he was subconsciously holding back his power due to his fear of rejection of his vaizard powers by the very friend he came to save, Orihime. He saw it in her eyes when he put the mask on and he realized that even if he does manage to save her, he may still lose her as a friend. That's a huge mental burden that he wasn't expecting, especially in the middle of a fight. It wasn't until Orihime cheered him on that his mind was at ease and he was able to release his full power without the fear of rejection.

I know it sounds pretty stupid when you're getting the crap kicked out of you, but hey - people work that way. Imagine your best friend was kidnapped. You almost die during training to get the skills necessary to bring them back. Then when you go to save them, in the middle of another fight for your life, they look at you like you're some kind of monster and the person you risked your life for is now afraid of you. It's not the reception you'd expect and it would definitely jar your initial resolve of winning the fight which would make you a LOT less effective fighter.

From what I understand our difference of opinion lies in you believing that he gets a power up beyond his normal limits, whereas I believe that the power up displayed when he fights with resolve is actually a glimpse into his true potential. My life experience and experience as a martial artist leads to this belief and would also explain why his power level is far from consistent - because his mind's always in flux.

As far as Koma goes it's probably just furry fanservice that'll somehow get tied into backstory later on. Has there been ANY other furry characters in this story other than Koma? Did he look like that before he got to SS or was he a normal human that become a wolf in SS?

Onomatopoeia
September 23, 2008, 11:16 PM
'Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgement that something else is more important than fear.' - Ambrose Redmoon

Which fight are you talking about specifically? The best example I have right off the bat is his fight with GJ in Chapter 283 (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/283/01/). During the fight he was subconsciously holding back his power due to his fear of rejection of his vaizard powers by the very friend he came to save, Orihime. He saw it in her eyes when he put the mask on and he realized that even if he does manage to save her, he may still lose her as a friend. That's a huge mental burden that he wasn't expecting, especially in the middle of a fight. It wasn't until Orihime cheered him on that his mind was at ease and he was able to release his full power without the fear of rejection.

I know it sounds pretty stupid when you're getting the crap kicked out of you, but hey - people work that way. Imagine your best friend was kidnapped. You almost die during training to get the skills necessary to bring them back. Then when you go to save them, in the middle of another fight for your life, they look at you like you're some kind of monster and the person you risked your life for is now afraid of you. It's not the reception you'd expect and it would definitely jar your initial resolve of winning the fight which would make you a LOT less effective fighter.

From what I understand our difference of opinion lies in you believing that he gets a power up beyond his normal limits, whereas I believe that the power up displayed when he fights with resolve is actually a glimpse into his true potential. My life experience and experience as a martial artist leads to this belief and would also explain why his power level is far from consistent - because his mind's always in flux.

As far as Koma goes it's probably just furry fanservice that'll somehow get tied into backstory later on. Has there been ANY other furry characters in this story other than Koma? Did he look like that before he got to SS or was he a normal human that become a wolf in SS?

For Bankai Mastery, were talking about the same guy who can equal 100+ year old captains in less then 30 days and master something that takes decades and even for a genius only 3 days with the same method, in 2 and a half days? This same guy has three months with his Bankai... Yeah I'm gonna have to go ahead and disagree with you on that one. Ichigo does not follow the normal rules of Shinigamiship .And once again if he hadn't mastered or at least gotten near his Bankai's max then why did he need to go Vizard. He should've just kept training with his Bankai and remember Ichigo in Bankai got destroyed against unreleased GJ, I'm confident by the time Ichigo was fighting against GJ that he had unlocked at least 60% of his Zan.

Resolve= THe ability to persevere and last for a little bit longer in a fight where things are even. Or with resolve to hold on for a little longer.

Now then I'm pretty sure we both have at least close to this definition but the difference is that I see Ichigo as not holding back power but you do.

Now then your arguement relvoves around Orihime being scared and Ichigo holding back, right? It's possible I guess, but my arguement relvolves around something else, it relvolves around Nell. Right Here (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/283/11/) she comments on how badly Ichigo is getting beaten down, instead of "Why is he holding back", now then Nel has undoubtably seen Ichigo's most powerful (Against Ulqui) yet she said that Ichigo was getting beaten and from the looks of the pictures and in what happened for the entire chapter, she's right. THeir was no way they were even close to tied in that part of the battle.

Now then considering this Ichigo suddenly instead of getten beaten down he went up to GJ and destroyed him, theirs no way Ichigo got that big of a powerup from Resolve. Ichigo got a powerup from an unexplained place. He even took his most powerful attack from GJ and threw it back like it was nothing. Ichigo was dead, he looked it but he swatted GJs attack like it was nothing the power change was at least thrice it's original.

Resolve=/= Powerup. It should never be argued or even debated unless the difference is tiny and it all hinges on a little bit of willpower. If the difference is huge and noticeable then it's is not Resolve it is a Powerup.

And Quotes=/= SHounen Mangas unless they're directly from that Manga and even then thats questionable.

En Yang Ji
September 23, 2008, 11:44 PM
For Bankai Mastery, were talking about the same guy who can equal 100+ year old captains in less then 30 days and master something that takes decades and even for a genius only 3 days with the same method, in 2 and a half days? This same guy has three months with his Bankai... Yeah I'm gonna have to go ahead and disagree with you on that one. Ichigo does not follow the normal rules of Shinigamiship .And once again if he hadn't mastered or at least gotten near his Bankai's max then why did he need to go Vizard. He should've just kept training with his Bankai and remember Ichigo in Bankai got destroyed against unreleased GJ, I'm confident by the time Ichigo was fighting against GJ that he had unlocked at least 60% of his Zan.

Resolve= THe ability to persevere and last for a little bit longer in a fight where things are even. Or with resolve to hold on for a little longer.

Now then I'm pretty sure we both have at least close to this definition but the difference is that I see Ichigo as not holding back power but you do.

Now then your arguement relvoves around Orihime being scared and Ichigo holding back, right? It's possible I guess, but my arguement relvolves around something else, it relvolves around Nell. Right Here (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/283/11/) she comments on how badly Ichigo is getting beaten down, instead of "Why is he holding back", now then Nel has undoubtably seen Ichigo's most powerful (Against Ulqui) yet she said that Ichigo was getting beaten and from the looks of the pictures and in what happened for the entire chapter, she's right. THeir was no way they were even close to tied in that part of the battle.

Now then considering this Ichigo suddenly instead of getten beaten down he went up to GJ and destroyed him, theirs no way Ichigo got that big of a powerup from Resolve. Ichigo got a powerup from an unexplained place. He even took his most powerful attack from GJ and threw it back like it was nothing. Ichigo was dead, he looked it but he swatted GJs attack like it was nothing the power change was at least thrice it's original.

Resolve=/= Powerup. It should never be argued or even debated unless the difference is tiny and it all hinges on a little bit of willpower. If the difference is huge and noticeable then it's is not Resolve it is a Powerup.

And Quotes=/= SHounen Mangas unless they're directly from that Manga and even then thats questionable.

It's unknown why it takes so long to master bankai. It could be that it takes a long time to learn how to materialize the Zanpakatou. Ichigo had the Tenshiten, so he didn't have to worry about that. Also Ichigo is extremely talented and has a lot of reiastu.

The reason Ichigo didn't master his bankai within that 3 month period is because he had something more important to deal with. The threat of his inner hollow taking over. That wasn't just a power-up, he felt like he had to learn to control his hollow side. Ichigo spent his time on that, not on mastering his zanpakatou, partially because he had to learn to control his hollow side and partially because of the power that comes with it. I think the main reason is that Zangetsu vanished. Zangetsu is the one who teaches Ichigo about his zanpakatou.


The reason Ichigo was losing is because he took several sharp projectiles to protect Orihime. Grimmjaw even demonstrated how powerful one of those projectiles was, when he destroyed a massive building.

Even if they are even in skill and ability, with enough resolve you could last until your body gave out. That's why Ichigo could win. Ichigo still had the power of his hollow side and we don't know how powerful Grimmjaw ultimate is. It could be as powerful as Getsuga Tensho. Grimmjaw was able to handle GT.

craig
September 23, 2008, 11:48 PM
For Bankai Mastery, were talking about the same guy who can equal 100+ year old captains in less then 30 days and master something that takes decades and even for a genius only 3 days with the same method, in 2 and a half days? This same guy has three months with his Bankai... Yeah I'm gonna have to go ahead and disagree with you on that one. Ichigo does not follow the normal rules of Shinigamiship .And once again if he hadn't mastered or at least gotten near his Bankai's max then why did he need to go Vizard. He should've just kept training with his Bankai and remember Ichigo in Bankai got destroyed against unreleased GJ, I'm confident by the time Ichigo was fighting against GJ that he had unlocked at least 60% of his Zan.

Resolve= THe ability to persevere and last for a little bit longer in a fight where things are even. Or with resolve to hold on for a little longer.

Now then I'm pretty sure we both have at least close to this definition but the difference is that I see Ichigo as not holding back power but you do.

Now then your arguement relvoves around Orihime being scared and Ichigo holding back, right? It's possible I guess, but my arguement relvolves around something else, it relvolves around Nell. Right Here (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/283/11/) she comments on how badly Ichigo is getting beaten down, instead of "Why is he holding back", now then Nel has undoubtably seen Ichigo's most powerful (Against Ulqui) yet she said that Ichigo was getting beaten and from the looks of the pictures and in what happened for the entire chapter, she's right. THeir was no way they were even close to tied in that part of the battle.

Now then considering this Ichigo suddenly instead of getten beaten down he went up to GJ and destroyed him, theirs no way Ichigo got that big of a powerup from Resolve. Ichigo got a powerup from an unexplained place. He even took his most powerful attack from GJ and threw it back like it was nothing. Ichigo was dead, he looked it but he swatted GJs attack like it was nothing the power change was at least thrice it's original.

Resolve=/= Powerup. It should never be argued or even debated unless the difference is tiny and it all hinges on a little bit of willpower. If the difference is huge and noticeable then it's is not Resolve it is a Powerup.

And Quotes=/= SHounen Mangas unless they're directly from that Manga and even then thats questionable.

Your definition of resolve and mine are different. Your definition falls more in line with persistence, in which case I'd agree. Persistence != powerup, although it can provide results in certain situations. Here's the definiton from dictionary.com (I've removed non-applicable definitions, but feel free to look it up for yourself)



re·solve /rɪˈzɒlv/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ri-zolv] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation verb, -solved, -solv·ing, noun
–verb (used with object)
1. to come to a definite or earnest decision about; determine (to do something): I have resolved that I shall live to the full.
7. to deal with (a question, a matter of uncertainty, etc.) conclusively; settle; solve: to resolve the question before the board.
8. to clear away or dispel (doubts, fears, etc.); answer: to resolve any doubts we may have had.

Also, Ichi and GJ were about equal power when they started fighting and both had taken a severe beating throughout the course of the battle. So where does your argument that Ichigo would need to double or triple his power to overcome GJ's attack come into play? No offense, but it seems you're pulling these numbers out of your ass.

The main flaw in your argument is that you're trying to argue against something that happened. It's like if I took your candy bar, and then you tell me I can't do that. Well, I just did. No matter what you say, it still happened, and therein lies the proof that it's possible.

Also just because you don't accept quotes doesn't make them less valid. It just means you refuse to accept them. Which is ok, whatever floats your boat.

P.S. On the same page you quoted (Right Here (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/283/11/)), Nel says that Ichi with his mask on was winning against Ulquiorra, yet was losing against GJ. Whether or not she was aware of the difference in power levels between the two, that indicates to me that she felt that Ichigo was holding back. Cause personally I felt he got his ass kicked by Ulq.

eddy26
September 24, 2008, 12:05 AM
How on earth does Ichigo vs. Grimmjow have anything to do with this chapter. You guys are getting way off topic. I think there is another thread somewhere that discusses the whole Ichigo bankai topic. The only bankai we are possibly going to see is Kommamura. The more I think about it the more I think Iba will release his shikai. The whole chapter might be him fightiing Po. Po will be close to killing Iba when Kommamura comes running back and releases his shikai. After he does he punches a hole through the middle of Po's body. I hope there is panel with Tousen saying don't underestimate Sajin's strength.

Revan46
September 24, 2008, 12:21 AM
How on earth does Ichigo vs. Grimmjow have anything to do with this chapter. You guys are getting way off topic. I think there is another thread somewhere that discusses the whole Ichigo bankai topic. The only bankai we are possibly going to see is Kommamura. The more I think about it the more I think Iba will release his shikai. The whole chapter might be him fightiing Po. Po will be close to killing Iba when Kommamura comes running back and releases his shikai. After he does he punches a hole through the middle of Po's body. I hope there is panel with Tousen saying don't underestimate Sajin's strength.

Well we don't actually know Iba's zanpakuto's name, nor do we know it's power, but we do know it's appearance. But I guess we'll find out hopefully. I just wonder what is gonna happen to Ikkaku.

kluzman
September 24, 2008, 02:06 AM
ANyone gonna answer my question about Kommamaru or what? I really want to know how in hell a fox guy became a Soul since we haven't seen a single Dog(I think) nor have we seen any other Animal Shinigami. Is this some sort of plothole or is it gonna be answered with a flashback?

Your best way to get an answer to this would be to ask Kubo. No reason for this has been given in the manga so far, all we know is that Ol'Yama saved him in some way.

Onomatopoeia
September 24, 2008, 03:31 PM
Your definition of resolve and mine are different. Your definition falls more in line with persistence, in which case I'd agree. Persistence != powerup, although it can provide results in certain situations. Here's the definiton from dictionary.com (I've removed non-applicable definitions, but feel free to look it up for yourself)



Also, Ichi and GJ were about equal power when they started fighting and both had taken a severe beating throughout the course of the battle. So where does your argument that Ichigo would need to double or triple his power to overcome GJ's attack come into play? No offense, but it seems you're pulling these numbers out of your ass.

The main flaw in your argument is that you're trying to argue against something that happened. It's like if I took your candy bar, and then you tell me I can't do that. Well, I just did. No matter what you say, it still happened, and therein lies the proof that it's possible.

Also just because you don't accept quotes doesn't make them less valid. It just means you refuse to accept them. Which is ok, whatever floats your boat.

P.S. On the same page you quoted (Right Here (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/283/11/)), Nel says that Ichi with his mask on was winning against Ulquiorra, yet was losing against GJ. Whether or not she was aware of the difference in power levels between the two, that indicates to me that she felt that Ichigo was holding back. Cause personally I felt he got his ass kicked by Ulq.

I didn't think it was needed to explain this but Released GJ> Ulq only using two hands. Ichigo actually was winning while his mask was on, against Ulq who was only using his hands. Unless your arguing that that Ulq without even using his sword can beat GJ Released(in which case I'll show pics of GJ not getting completely raped when they did fight). Nel was right Ichigo was winning against Ulqui who was only using 2 hands, but only when his Mask was on, Nel made sure to note this.

Also where in my arguement have I said that the fight didn't happen?? My arguement is that Ichigo only won because of help from Plot and that he's the Main Character. This powerup was then passed off as resolve but I feel that resolve couldn't do that much to help someone.If you think my arguement is about whether it actually happened or not maybe you should read my posts over again;)

Quotes from people that aren't even in a Shounen isn't exactly the end all point, giving scans, getting arguements, using calcs for people, showing feetz, etc. are important. If Quotes mattered that much

Anyways here's multiple definitions for the word resolve, from http://www.thefreedictionary.com/resolve.


re·solve (r-zlv)
v.tr.
1. To make a firm decision about.
2. To cause (a person) to reach a decision. See Synonyms at decide.
v.intr.
1. To reach a decision or make a determination: resolve on a course of action.
n.
1. Firmness of purpose; resolution.
2. A determination or decision; a fixed purpose.
3. A formal resolution made by a deliberative body.


I don't see how knowing the definition changes either of our arguements, it doesn't state anywhere that it'll allow you to overcome anything no matter what it is...

Anyways the numbers didn't come out of my ass, the numbers actually come from the fact that, when Ichigo's mask breaks he loses all of his Vizard power. When his mask cracks it means he's at his limit. Now then Ichigo' right after his mask cracks gets a huge beatdown against GJ. This gets even worse as the mask continues to break. This means one of two things.
A. GJ was giving a huge beatdown to full power Ichigo who minutes ago was fighting him more or less equally. This would mean that GJ had mysteriously gotten a fair amount more powerful.
B. Ichigo getting cracks in his Mask meant that he was at his limit. As his mask began to be broken more and more his Vizard powers were dissapearing Finally that means when half of his Mask meant that he also lost half of his power(half of something is only working at 50%)

In my opinion B seems more likely to me because losing all of his of his power only happens when he doesn't have any mask. While his limit is when cracks appear. That means that the midway point is when Ichigo has half of his mask and half of his Vizard powers...

Finally on the whole "Ichigo was holding back because Orihime thing" while you do have apoint it would be pretty jarring your right but GJ said this (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/279/18/). Now then to use one of your own examples, which would be worse for you having one of your friends be afraid of you or knowing that if you died that GJ would kill all your friends including the one that was afraid of you? I think thats plenty of reason not to lose/die and to try your best.

I'm probablly missing something but whatever.