Fantasy Kizaru vs Kurohige [Archive]

BlackHair

September 14, 2008, 11:18 AM

his may still be in a normal body but if hecan withstand ace's attack then he is a real hard nutshell. and to survive that frikkin bin fireball of ace he really can deal with most attacks directed at him. Actually I was talking about the ability itself not about BB. He has certainly a big amount of stamina and resistance against damage. But he still has to take the damage, I think in the end it comes down to endurance.

Tbh Ace wasn't that strong, if we compare him with Enel. I believe Enel would have been able to defeat BB, maybe even easily. If we look at this page (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/441/11/), we can see the fire burning on BBs body for a brief moment until he sucked it in with his gravity black hole w.e. Enels lighting attack holds just for a brief moment with immense damage, not like fire which has to burn longer to get more damage. Same with Kizaru, his light beam attacks and also Kicks just has to touch BB for a brief moment. I just want to say, that there is a difference in damage between fire and light and lightning.

We still don't know much about him and his ability, but at this point I will go with Kizaru.

but he has about no chance against logia and haki as of now. Rayleigh is strong, therefore his haki must be strong as well, which Zoro took easily.

But I agree, if its just about brutal strength, then I don't think the gap between him and Kizaru should be big. In a fight there are many things to note, such as speed, experience, brutal strength and many more.

Kizaru is way faster and has probably more experience. I have to correct that, if its just about hand to hand combat or a similar fighting style, then his speed wouldn't count if we look at Kiz and Ray.

Onomatopoeia

September 14, 2008, 04:06 PM

Depends really on a few things.

If Kizaru can blind BB fast enough then it's game over for BB. Kizaru has kicks that are casual Town/Village busters! If he spams the attack it's over, BB can't even hope to deal with that sort of firepower especially if he takes it continuously. Not only that but the guy could play pin ball with BB thanks to his speed.

BBs only chance to win is pulling off his Blackhole power fast enough, hypotheticlly it'll suck all of Kizaru up because it's a blackhole. But this is Oda physics were talking about here and since Enel can fire off Lightning bolts in space which is impossible because theirs no ionized air physics doesn't mean much. But you've also got to consider that Kizaru can make an infinite amount of his element and that BBs black hole didn't immeditaly make the battlefield dark at all.

Kizaru can take anyone out if he's got about 25+ feet of distance between them.

kkck

September 14, 2008, 05:09 PM

maybe some day in the future, but not at this moment -> WB

I will go for Kizaru, don't rly have a reason but I like his stupid poker face. :P Kizaru is way faster and has probably more experience.

I personally don't think highly of BBs darkness fruit. It has a all-time physical body even though it is a logia and it can only cancel other DF completely by direct touching. Don't get the big deal under this condition.

I think there is a fairly good chance that blackbeard is stronger than whitebeard or at least equal to him. Blackbeard gave that scar to shanks even before he got his crazy fruit, and shanks is about as strong as whitebeard. Personaly I see no way kisaru or anyone else can escape BB gravity pull.

BlackHair

September 14, 2008, 06:45 PM

I think there is a fairly good chance that blackbeard is stronger than whitebeard or at least equal to him. Blackbeard gave that scar to shanks even before he got his crazy fruit, and shanks is about as strong as whitebeard.I don't want to talk that much about WB, since its offtopic (again xd). WB was labelled as the strongest by Oda after BB left his crew. So BB had already his darkness fruit at that time. So right now, he stands at the top, but not forever.

Personaly I see no way kisaru or anyone else can escape BB gravity pull.Kizaru don't have to escape the gravity, intact he could use it for his kicks. This way he should gain more kick power.

Well, its just a fighting scenario, we still don't know much about both of their ability.. I guess its still early to open a thread about them.

paradoxe

September 14, 2008, 08:07 PM

But I agree, if its just about brutal strength, then I don't think the gap between him and Kizaru should be big. In a fight there are many things to note, such as speed, experience, brutal strength and many more.

Hes an admiral aite?

Zoro and Kizaru on on different entirely different levels. They shouldn't even be compared with each other at the moment.

You don't get to be an admiral by firing laser beams. You need physical strength to back it up.

withstand more hits then zorro?

SERIOUSLY YOU THINK KIZARU CAN TAKE LESS THEN ZORO?

hahahaha

Btw its Zoro not Zorro. Zorro is the guy from Mexico mhm..nvm..

=/

bittman

September 14, 2008, 08:10 PM

Blackbeard is the final boss, so there's my answer...

GeckoMoria

September 14, 2008, 08:22 PM

Kurohige ftw, that darkness is way strong and BB is hella strong to injure serious shanks. BB can own pretty much any DF user.

BlackHair

September 15, 2008, 10:34 AM

Hes an admiral aite?

Zoro and Kizaru on on different entirely different levels. They shouldn't even be compared with each other at the moment.

You don't get to be an admiral by firing laser beams. You need physical strength to back it up.
I agree Zoro and Kiz are on a complete different lvl and they shouldn't be compared, actually I never said sth different.

But there are several things to count if u want to determine someone's fighting power. And I believe if its just about brutal strength, the gap between them shouldn't be that big.

Just a simple example, if we compare them: (note Im just giving random numbers)

Zoro
strength: 6
agility: 4
experince : 2
speed: 3
etc..

Kizaru
strength: 8
agility: 8
experience : 10
speed: 8
etc.. sth like that

Well anyway, Kizarus poker face (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/507/15/) ftw. BB doesn't even have teeth (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/225/15/).

LoS

September 15, 2008, 11:33 PM

This is pretty pointless since we don't know near enough about either of the characters in question, but I will play along.

Also you do realize that Kizaru is like 9 feet tall? He is uber strong as is, all the top echelon characters in OP are insanely strong naturally.

I have no clue who would win, but if Rayleigh is more powerful than Kizaru and BB is approaching the Yonkou in strength then I think the fight would be in BB's favor.

Onomatopoeia

September 16, 2008, 12:01 AM

gfire2

September 16, 2008, 04:13 AM

Anyways BB's greatest feat was taking out Ace while using all/most of his power, while Kizaru seemed to be beating Ray and rather easily to( this is also based off the fact that Kizaru seemed very lax, even making a joke when fighting of course this could be his style to). And in my opinion that makes Kizaru's feet a lot more impressive then BB's.

Also lulz at putting Kizaru's speed at 8, he's light he freakin better be a 10.

You know reading through this I hope that this will end any arguements about WB still being the strongest Yonkou, considering old age does seem to effect everyone.

hmm i dont quite agree with ur there, ray looked perfectly normal and both of them looked relaxed (i assume they both arent even usin 20% of their true fighting capacity).

plz dont start puttin numbers on one piece characters..... that totallin destroys the greatness of one piece, it is becoz they dont measure power levels with numbers which makes it interesting and consistent

paradoxe

September 16, 2008, 08:02 AM

You know reading through this I hope that this will end any arguements about WB still being the strongest Yonkou, considering old age does seem to effect everyone.

Errrrrr....Hes still called the Strongest Man.

Ya know, whats the point of arguingg considering how Oda presented it to us as fact, and there can still be some people who dispute it. If you don't trust Oda then why bother reading his work?

"Whitebeard is..that man is the only one who tied in a fight against Gold Roger, the Pirate King!! Without a doubt, he is currently the STRONGEST PIRATE OF THE WORLD !!!"

From Buggy.

Razh

September 16, 2008, 11:25 AM

"Strongest" reffers to physical strenght, which is not always a deciding factor in battle.
Besides, that "Strongest pirate in the world" seemed more like a title of sorts. I think it's been a while since anyone tried to dispute that title.

Not that I think WB is just a pushover now, or not a strongest of Yonkou.

BlackHair

September 16, 2008, 11:26 AM

In the fight between Kizaru and Ray I don't think anyone will argue that the one that was more tired was Ray. Not only that but based off of the damage lines on Ray's coat compared to the damage line's on Kizaru's coat the damage seemed to be heading only Ray's way. It doesn't help that Kizaru was the one who seemed to be controlling the fight...

Anyways BB's greatest feat was taking out Ace while using all/most of his power, while Kizaru seemed to be beating Ray and rather easily to( this is also based off the fact that Kizaru seemed very lax, even making a joke when fighting of course this could be his style to). And in my opinion that makes Kizaru's feet a lot more impressive then BB's.
I'm thinking just like u that Kiz is stronger then Ray, just cause Kiz is still active and Ray not. I know that is not a valid argument, but I will live with that until its proven wrong.

But I agree with gfire2 (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1029454&postcount=24) in the battle both were not using their full power. Imo what we saw can't be even called a fight, just a warm-up or sth: Ray wanted to help the SHs even tho he was already handling a Admiral, basically it is like Ray taking Kiz lightly. And u couldn't see any kind of doubts in his face. About Kiz, idk u can't determine anything from his face but the way he talked seemed like he was relaxed.

Also lulz at putting Kizaru's speed at 8, he's light he freakin better be a 10.
His light speed ability is only good for travelling long distances. Even though Ray is normal human (unless sth different is said) yet he could fight evenly with Kiz (light). So basically Kiz wasn't able to use his light speed in a sword fight. But ye compared with Zoro there should be probably a 10, but I was only pointing out brutal strenght.. nothing more.

You know reading through this I hope that this will end any arguements about WB still being the strongest Yonkou, considering old age does seem to effect everyone. Even though that man is old and ill, Oda still called him strongest. That means even under this condition he could win everyone in a fair 1vs1 fight. btw strongest=fighting power. Why are you doubting Oda?

"Strongest" reffers to physical strenght, which is not always a deciding factor in battle.
Besides, that "Strongest pirate in the world" seemed more like a title of sorts. I think it's been a while since anyone tried to dispute that title. So u r thinking Mihawk as the strongest swordsman has the most destruction power with a sword? WB is called the strongest human (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/234/12-13/) by Oda and the strongest pirate by Buggy.

Could some1 plz open a thread about WB with a poll? If he is or not the strongest. My english isn't good for a first post xD

edit: I'm not gonna go offtopic again by talking about WB. So I will stop at this point. If there is a thread about that topic, than it would be a pleasure to discuss, but not here. If some1 is interested in our previous discussions (starting at page 18 to 20) (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37358&page=20)

Razh

September 16, 2008, 11:49 AM

So u r thinking Mihawk as the strongest swordsman has the most destruction power with a sword? WB is called the strongest human (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/234/12-13/) by Oda and the strongest pirate by Buggy.

You just neglected the other part of my post?

I can read thank you, and I know what Oda and Buggy said about WB.
That was a joke. And btw, I do think Mihawk has the most destruction power with a sword. :p

WB has had that title for a long time, and it's probably been a while since he fought someone at his level. It's just uncertain whether he is or isn't the strongest. Plenty of strong ones in OP now.

Onomatopoeia

September 16, 2008, 08:27 PM

I'm thinking just like u that Kiz is stronger then Ray, just cause Kiz is still active and Ray not. I know that is not a valid argument, but I will live with that until its proven wrong.

But I agree with gfire2 (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1029454&postcount=24) in the battle both were not using their full power. Imo what we saw can't be even called a fight, just a warm-up or sth: Ray wanted to help the SHs even tho he was already handling a Admiral, basically it is like Ray taking Kiz lightly. And u couldn't see any kind of doubts in his face. About Kiz, idk u can't determine anything from his face but the way he talked seemed like he was relaxed.

His light speed ability is only good for travelling long distances. Even though Ray is normal human (unless sth different is said) yet he could fight evenly with Kiz (light). So basically Kiz wasn't able to use his light speed in a sword fight. But ye compared with Zoro there should be probably a 10, but I was only pointing out brutal strenght.. nothing more.

Even though that man is old and ill, Oda still called him strongest. That means even under this condition he could win everyone in a fair 1vs1 fight. btw strongest=fighting power. Why are you doubting Oda?

So u r thinking Mihawk as the strongest swordsman has the most destruction power with a sword? WB is called the strongest human (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/234/12-13/) by Oda and the strongest pirate by Buggy.

Could some1 plz open a thread about WB with a poll? If he is or not the strongest. My english isn't good for a first post xD

edit: I'm not gonna go offtopic again by talking about WB. So I will stop at this point. If there is a thread about that topic, than it would be a pleasure to discuss, but not here. If some1 is interested in our previous discussions (starting at page 18 to 20) (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37358&page=20)

Ray was panting I don't think I need to say more then that. Even if they were both using 20% Kizaru was defintely winning. Not only that but I'm pretty sure that if Ray started seeing people who he thought were friends and started seeing them dissapearing to a Sichi who follows the WB I think he would start fighting a bit more seriously.

Why do people always downplay Kizaru's feats? Oh and as for the strongest=fighting power, I think the factors of Speed,Durability, Reaction Time, Intelligence,DFs, other items etc. would all like to have a very long talk with you.

He said speed not reaction time and speed =/= reaction time. If he had said Reaction Time then I would've agreed with him(well move it up to 9). Reaction time is how quickly you can react to something(Zoro has high reaction time) while speed is how fast you can get somewhere(Luffy has more speed)

And as for the last part your right I'm not going into the WB "Strongest" arguement but suffice to say I disagree with you.

As for the BB vs Kizaru arguement it goes to Kizaru for reasons already pointed out. Even featz say that Kizaru will win.

BlackHair

September 16, 2008, 09:37 PM

Ray was panting I don't think I need to say more then that. Even if they were both using 20% Kizaru was defintely winning. Not only that but I'm pretty sure that if Ray started seeing people who he thought were friends and started seeing them dissapearing to a Sichi who follows the WB I think he would start fighting a bit more seriously. Well, on onemanga (http://www.onemanga.com/), I can only see him 1 time panting (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/513/11/), but in the latter panels there is no signs of that. Same goes for sweat (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/513/02-03/), which disappeared in later panels. I guess Oda was careless in this matter.

But as for me, if in a shounen world two guys are starting to fight, then they would start bleeding, sweating, panting and getting dirty. As long I don't see any of these typical signs, there wasn't a serious fight. If two big shots usually start fighting without any special moves or these signs, then its usually some sort of greeting, warm-up etc. I know the situation they were in was serious, but it wasn't a fight for me. You can't determine their powerlvl on this.

btw Kiz is bleeding, but that doesn't count. Since he wasn't focused on Ray.

Why do people always downplay Kizaru's feats?
I actually didn't. I was putting him evenly in a warm up match with Rayleigh. Who is strong, respected and well known. I don't think that is downplaying and it wasn't my intention. Since I said myself, Kiz is probably stronger then Ray.

Oh and as for the strongest=fighting power, I think the factors of Speed,Durability, Reaction Time, Intelligence,DFs, other items etc. would all like to have a very long talk with you. Sry, I didn't explained, that's why u misunderstood me. Many factors like speed, agility, strength, experience, DF(weapon) etc are determining the "fighting power". Basically I was saying the strongest guy has the best rates in most of the factors. Its just like a diagram in a RPG game of ur character.

He said speed not reaction time and speed =/= reaction time. If he had said Reaction Time then I would've agreed with him(well move it up to 9). Reaction time is how quickly you can react to something(Zoro has high reaction time) while speed is how fast you can get somewhere(Luffy has more speed)I'm completely confused about this part of ur post. Who are u referring to with "he and his"? Anyway, I agree, speed defines like u said how fast u can get somewhere, while agility+reaction time defines how fast u can react to sth. But seriously, I didn't rly gave any thoughts in those numbers, actually it was a 30 sec work, I was just trying to point out the difference in brutal strength, nothing more.

You just neglected the other part of my post? I just thought I was fine with that part I quoted. I read ur whole post and I know ur viewpoint. Sry, wasn't some sort of offense or anything.

edit:
whoever voted for fatso is ...umm *beep*
kizaru is just too fast and fatso won't take more than one laser whoever? 20 guys voted for BB and I think its way too soon to dicuss about Kiz and BB. We are lacking some big information.

And as for the last part your right I'm not going into the WB "Strongest" arguement [...]I think its the first time we agree on sth :D

mugen

September 16, 2008, 10:25 PM

whoever voted for fatso is ...umm *beep*
kizaru is just too fast and fatso won't take more than one laser

bittman

September 16, 2008, 11:03 PM

Though he can take lances of fire? I mean, what is an enormous amount of fire compared to a tiny little beam? If fatso could be defeated by a beam and speed, Ace would have won.

People forget Blackbeard's power is gravity not just the cancellation effect. What is speed compared to irresistible force?

BlackHair

September 16, 2008, 11:17 PM

Though he can take lances of fire? I mean, what is an enormous amount of fire compared to a tiny little beam? If fatso could be defeated by a beam and speed, Ace would have won. U r missing sth, which I pointed out earlier. Fire needs to burn longer to do big damage, while laser does only have to hit for brief sec to do big damage. U can't compare that. btw imo Ace is overrated.

People forget Blackbeard's power is gravity not just the cancellation effect. What is speed compared to irresistible force? He could use the gravity for his own attacks to get even more weight then light. Basically the gravity could reinforce Kizarus kicks of light -> light+gravity = super kick .. just a scenario :P

And I believe u r forgetting, his all-time physical body + he has to touch his opponents directly to cancel their DF powers. So he has to take all the hits, in the end it comes down to endurance + physical ability and that's why Ace lost. I believe some1 like Luffy who is in a physical better shape than Ace could beat him or Kizaru, who uses physical attacks like kicks. And I believe a guy like Enel could beat BB easily, since lighting is fast and hits only for a brief sec, while it does a enormous destruction.

But like mentioned, we are lacking information on both of them. Still at this point Im for Kizaru.

goldb

September 17, 2008, 08:36 AM

if kizaru fights long range then its a no contest, but if he's arrogant and thinks he can take Blackbeard in a close combat then he'll die...

kkck

September 17, 2008, 01:13 PM

Kizaru simply can not fight long range againts BB since BB can simply reel him in with his gravity. Whether kizaru wins or not depends on the damage he can deal to BB when he is being pulled, which BB could avoid by having his darkness suck the light like he did to ace's flames and the town and whether kizaru has the strenth to fight on even terms with BB without his fruit.
BB could also suck kizaru into his darkness and not release him like he did with the town. That would overall avoid the whole fight.

Onomatopoeia

September 17, 2008, 02:11 PM

Kizaru can get far enough away from BB so that the effects of his Blackhole doesn't work, easy. Remember the normal villagers who were about 2 miles away tops weren't effected at all by the Blackhole that he made. Kizaru can get that far away way before BB even gets his blackhole ready. Then it's just ranged kicksplosions all day.

Not only that but people are way underestimating Kizaru even if it's a close range battle thats still gives the advantage to Kizaru because lets say Kizaru kicks BB and BB catches his kick cancelling Kizaru's DF, thats great for BB but that doesn't change the fact that the force behind the kick is still light speed. In other words unless BB's DF can stop force now he's dead if Kizaru can even get 3-4 really good kicks in.

kkck

September 17, 2008, 04:51 PM

^If physics applied in OP in the exact same way as in real life that would be true, but unfortunately for plot-no-jutsus sake it does not. If physics in OP world applied and the circumstances you mention applied, kizaru would die the second BB takes his power away because he would permanently transform into pure energy. To make it clearer: Things that move at the speed of light transform into energy and if kizaru moves at the speed of light and looses his power for a split second he would completely transform into energy and since he does not have his power for that second he dies.
Also whitebeard has shown to use his power in two ways: In the first one he sucked the town with the darkness while with the second one he used gravity to attrack ace to his fist. The second one is the one that kizaru should fear since gravity is unavoidable. Also BB is apparently able to target specific things with his gravity considering that when he used it on ace, he only attracted ace and not any dust or rubble.
If we get really scientific about it, absolutely everything has an unavoidable gravity field, and I mean everything, from atoms to dust to people and stars, the thing is that things with small mass dont have the gravitational force that big things like planets or stars have, so we dont feel them.

Onomatopoeia

September 19, 2008, 02:36 PM

Franckie

September 20, 2008, 05:50 PM

whoever voted for fatso is ...umm *beep*
kizaru is just too fast and fatso won't take more than one laser

What's wrong with voting for "fatso"? People voting for "fatso" aren't only taking feats into consideration here. We're also going by plot importance and power scaling - BB wins out on both.

Oblivion

September 20, 2008, 07:25 PM

ets say Kizaru kicks BB and BB catches his kick cancelling Kizaru's DF, thats great for BB but that doesn't change the fact that the force behind the kick is still light speed.

kizaru leg not in logia mode anymore would vanish instantly into nothingness of time.

but seriously: physics reall cant be applied. real light speed is soo fast no one would see it coming. kizaru could fly around the globe and tickle BB and BB wouldnt even notice kizaru is there. but thats not the case.

Fire needs to burn longer to do big damage, while laser does only have to hit for brief sec to do big damage.

fire has some after effects, but having firelance balls and what not shot towards me i would care far more on the inital damage, and that is STILL devestating. the lance only left behind little burns, but there initial damage was astonishing. and keep in mind. BB withstood a lot of those things AND EVEN THE HUGE BALL OF FIREAWESOMENESS. if BB can survive that thing, he can sure withstand beams.

the thing BB surprised me most with was not his DF but his endurance.

Onomatopoeia

September 20, 2008, 09:06 PM

What's wrong with voting for "the badass fatso"? People voting for " the badass fatso" aren't only taking feats into consideration here. We're also going by plot importance and power scaling - BB wins out on both.

Actually he only wins out on plot importance. We don't even need powerscaling because he's already shown all his power on Ace. Powerscaling with Kizaru on the other hand is needed, powerscaling him puts him above BB.

paradoxe

September 20, 2008, 09:58 PM

We don't know the full extent of BB's power yet. For all we know, he could absorb attacks into his Black hole and release it back at the opponent. Or he could be super fast, with soru and all, but he didn't display that against Ace because he didn't find it necessary to.

I'm leaning towards BB winning, because Oda is building him up to be the ultimate boss, Luffy's opposite in ideals, but similar in drive, motivation and strength.

Onomatopoeia

September 20, 2008, 10:22 PM

Thats true but were working with current incarnations not with future 500 chapters later when Luffy and BB fight all out. Going by featz and powerscaling Kizaru wins.

kkck

September 21, 2008, 03:43 AM

Shanks feared BB could be as strong or stronger than WB, IMO that says a lot about BB true strenth. BB is not just some creppy dude with a crazy fruit, he also has incredible resistance to attacks and can fight extremely well without his fruit.
Kizaru right now is strong enough to fight in par with old raileight, has crazy speed and incredible attack power.
The thing is that not even light can scape gravity, which is BB true power, meaning that Kizaru cannot hope to scape BB power. Also attacking when being pulled is extremely dificult because gravity does not just pull one point of your body, it pulls all of it at once and BB power probably can create gravity many times stronger than that of earth. If attacking BB when being pulled was something even remotely easy, I am sure ace would have taken the chance to attack, yet he didnt.
Also the sensation of being pulled to BB is not like a hand pulling you or anything like that, if BB power is gravity the one being pulled is effectively "falling" to were BB is. And if the force making you fall into BB is many times the gravity of earth the one being pulled will be efectively paralized, meaning there is extremely little room for counter attack before BB grabs you.
As things are know I would put my money on BB every and any day.

paradoxe

September 21, 2008, 03:53 AM

BB managed to scratch Shanks face and wound him permanently even before he had the Yami Yami No Mi. That speaks volumes about his strength.

Akainu

September 21, 2008, 07:13 AM

a sea monster managed to bite off Shanks arm and got badly owned by a noob pirate named Luffy 10 years later ... so what?

Razh

September 21, 2008, 07:32 AM

My guess is that BB didn't give Shanks the scar while he was trying to protect some kid. Maybe I'm crazy, but I think it was more like some bar fight or some other fight.

You tried to give a point but it really doesn't make any sense. Comparing some sea monster and BB, and two entirelly different situations.

Akainu

September 21, 2008, 08:12 AM

so Shanks was not trying to protect a kid when fighting BB? how do you know? and even if he didn't, Shanks wasn't a Yonkou when he got that scar, he most likely still was on Gol D.'s ship and not nearly as powerful as he is now.

oh and btw.: you should be cautious with deeming posts wasted, because if you read closely you will find out, that the sentence has a second part with the seamonster loosing to someone (it doesn't really matter how strong Luffy was at that time, just that he was vigilant and knew the thread of the local monster). so loosing to someone, let's say Luffy, is imo BB's fate.

on the matter of Kizaru vs. Kurohige there is nothing really convincing for either side and shouldn't BB betray WG somewhen in near future I don't see it happen (though I would never assume a thread is wasted because of that)

Razh

September 21, 2008, 08:23 AM

Well, I should apologize for my poor choice of words. What I meant was, you made a silly comparison.
And I'm not flaming.

You really should be careful, Razh. Telling people's post a waste definitely isn't the way attracts a friendly response.

paradoxe

September 21, 2008, 08:37 AM

so Shanks was not trying to protect a kid when fighting BB? how do you know? and even if he didn't, Shanks wasn't a Yonkou when he got that scar, he most likely still was on Gol D.'s ship and not nearly as powerful as he is now.

How do you know Shanks was not a Yonkou when he got that scar?

In fact, I'm pretty sure he was, or else he wouldn't have been so worried about Ace. He knew BB's strength, the fact that he was able to harm one of the most powerful pirates in the OP world. The more skilled and powerful fighters are able to judge one another's strength..like what Mihawk said about Zoro not being able to judge his strength before their fight. I'm pretty sure Shanks ranks BB very high in terms of strength.

Onomatopoeia

September 27, 2008, 03:10 PM

How do you know Shanks was not a Yonkou when he got that scar?

In fact, I'm pretty sure he was, or else he wouldn't have been so worried about Ace. He knew BB's strength, the fact that he was able to harm one of the most powerful pirates in the OP world. The more skilled and powerful fighters are able to judge one another's strength..like what Mihawk said about Zoro not being able to judge his strength before their fight. I'm pretty sure Shanks ranks BB very high in terms of strength.

In other words no (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/1/07/)

This is East Blue as I'm sure we all know the Yonkou all live in the New World. So Shanks couldn't have been a Yonkou 10+ years ago. Not only that but the Marine's wouldn't let a Yonkou just go to some random East Blue Town. That town would be seiged by Marine's.

We've seen BBs upper limits. That shouldn't be questioned. And I'd better not here any "But BB could..." no BB has not been shown to do whatever your talking about. If you say that then I reply with the fact that if a person moved at lightspeed around Earth then Earth would be destroyed.

paradoxe

September 28, 2008, 12:54 AM

How have we seen BB's upper limits? He was just messing wtih Ace...not even taking the fight seriously. He didn't NEED to show his full capabilities to beat him.. Ace certainly is no pushover..but BB is a fucking monster. He beat him without breaking a sweat..

So how have we seen his limit?

If you say that then I reply with the fact that if a person moved at lightspeed around Earth then Earth would be destroyed.

Hmm. I guess someones confused.

Please, calm down ;)

Onomatopoeia

September 28, 2008, 02:04 AM

Proof that BB wasn't using most of his power? Because to me BB was in a lot of pain here (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/441/15/) and over here (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/440/16/). Perhaps I am a little bit off and BB might have only used 90% of his power but that still doesn't change the fact that we have a very good idea of what he can do and have seen the upper limits of his power. If he could have beaten Ace so easily then why when he saw Entei didn't he just dwarf it with his own power he just barely beat it out in size (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/441/19/)

No seriously moving at light would make us all dead. I'm not even joking it would kill us. Multiply someone who weighs about 150 pounds *186,282.397 miles per sec, the force in that would cause someone stopping at that speed to wreck us all. And then we could get into concepts of Infinte Mass because of Light Speed . Not that it really matters because thats only one example of what Kizaru could do with Light but hasn't shown to do, just like BB.

kkck

September 28, 2008, 03:25 AM

Onomatopoeia

September 28, 2008, 11:25 AM

To be honest to me it didnt look like BB used all his power or even most of it. At the begining of the fight it didnt seem as if BB was going to win, but he did take all of ace's attacks without much trouble. As the fight went on BB began to show his power and he little by little began getting the upper hand in the fight. As the fight went on it was clear that ace was on the losing side and BB had an incredible advantage. Ace could not scape BB power and BB wasnt that hurt after receiving all of ace's attacks. BY the end of the fight even with all his power, in a way Ace was powerless againts BB.
As for the thread's particular topic, I still think BB would win. I dont see how kizaru could posible scape BB gravity things, and if BB can use his darkness thing to absorb attacks like he did to the town, he would have an almost perfect defence. To be honest I dont think we have seen most of BB abilities yet, and there is a high chance he can use haki too. I think that the most appropiate to beat BB would be someone who doesnt have a DF or at least doesnt rely to much on it.

It didn't seem, I thought. Give me one place, where BB actually Dwarfs Ace's power, one place where it is extremely obvious that Ace had no chance in hell. Seriously show it to me, having a theory is good but if it doesn't have anything in the Manga to back it up it's just that a hypothesis.

As for Haki, why would he know it half of the usefulness is the ability to take out Logias. If he knows that then he doesn't need it anywhere near as much. Having Haki is useless for BB with his DF.

And where are people getting the whole BB can suck up attacks, didn't BB already say that all attacks hit him for more damage then it normally would and that he has to take all attacks? One Kicksplosion to the eye's and it's gg BB.

kkck

September 28, 2008, 11:44 AM

It didn't seem, I thought. Give me one place, where BB actually Dwarfs Ace's power, one place where it is extremely obvious that Ace had no chance in hell. Seriously show it to me, having a theory is good but if it doesn't have anything in the Manga to back it up it's just that a hypothesis.
To be honest once BB showed his power, I thought ace didnt stood a chance in hell. And even if BB took most of ace's attacks, and got hurt, he didnt seem like he was getting weaker or particularly damaged by them.

As for Haki, why would he know it half of the usefulness is the ability to take out Logias. If he knows that then he doesn't need it anywhere near as much. Having Haki is useless for BB with his DF.
Why would it be useless for BB to have haki? U make it sound as if it would cancel his own DF power lol. Also from the last chapter (the haki infused arrow) it is clear that haki has other uses other than taking out logias.

And where are people getting the whole BB can suck up attacks, didn't BB already say that all attacks hit him for more damage then it normally would and that he has to take all attacks? One Kicksplosion to the eye's and it's gg BB.
BB cant let attacks go through him, but we have no reason to believe that he cant do to attacks what he did to the town. There is a diference between letting attacks go through, and absorbing them with his darkness.

Onomatopoeia

September 28, 2008, 12:02 PM

To be honest once BB showed his power, I thought ace didnt stood a chance in hell. And even if BB took most of ace's attacks, and got hurt, he didnt seem like he was getting weaker or particularly damaged by them.

Why would it be useless for BB to have haki? U make it sound as if it would cancel his own DF power lol. Also from the last chapter (the haki infused arrow) it is clear that haki has other uses other than taking out logias.

BB cant let attacks go through him, but we have no reason to believe that he cant do to attacks what he did to the town. There is a diference between letting attacks go through, and absorbing them with his darkness.

I'm pretty sure this page (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/441/15/) exemplifies what I"m talking about. After getting over the Shock Factor of BBs attack Ace gets hit for hit in on BB. BB punches him Ace hits him with a fire lance. THey're both hurt, sure doesn't seem hopeless to me. And hey if BB said it was painful that means it was painful.

BBs main power is to take out the ability of DF users as is Haki's power but Teach's Devil Fruit allows him to do it to a greater extent. He's also set in destructive capabilities. THose are the two things we know about Haki that it does. Since BB is more then capable in both cases I don't see why Haki would be useful to him at all. The best you have at this point is that Haki might be able to do so and so. In fact we don't have any evidence what so ever that BB even has the power of Haki.

BB says that Darkness consumes everything Lightning,Fire,Blades,etc. but in order to suck everything in he has to take damage because Gravity takes everything, this is shown in the Ace fight. I don't see exactly how it can be uncertain what it means.

kkck

September 28, 2008, 02:27 PM

Railieght showed us he was able to hurt kizaru and most of us assume that it is because of haki, me included. But that doesnt nesesarily mean haki can cancel a devil fruits power. Haki somehow just gets around a DF power and causes damage, but still the DF user can still use his power. BB cancels the power completely, so there is a big diference between them.

BB says that Darkness consumes everything Lightning,Fire,Blades,etc. but in order to suck everything in he has to take damage because Gravity takes everything, this is shown in the Ace fight. I don't see exactly how it can be uncertain what it means.

I agree with this, but when BB he was talking about attacks going through him. Since BB is darkness or gravity, he cant have attacks going through him because he naturaly attracks things.
Here we have an image of BB spreading his darkness:
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/441/04/
That darkness was used to absorb the entire town, and he didnt suffer any sort of damage or anything like that. Had there been someone in the town, he would probably have been absorbed by the darkness. If BB spreads his darkness like that, could he not absorb attacks/people/anything in the exact same way as he did with the town? I think he could.

Razh

September 29, 2008, 05:49 AM

Yes. Technically if he was using his power faster, he would have sucked in Ace's fire before it touched him.
When he said that darkness consumes everything he refered specifically to his inabillity to avoid attacks by letting them go trough him like normal logia users do.

Onomatopoeia

September 29, 2008, 02:43 PM

Not exactly sure if comparing stationary targets to lightspeed movements is a good idea.

Anyways why didn't BB showcase this power against Ace? If he had the chance I'm sure he would have especially against Flame Entei, even if it does work I have a feeling that it wouldn't work on anything to big and Kizaru's Kicksplosion defintely falls under the category of way to big.

Razh

September 29, 2008, 02:54 PM

Onomatopoeia

September 29, 2008, 04:22 PM

There was a time when it was impossible to conceive how anyone could beat Ace. But we saw it. Then, for couple of chapters, it seemed like nobody could even touch Kizaru. But Apoo managed to surprise him, and then, later Rayleigh fights evenly with him.
About Kizarus' light speed movements. It seems that he can only use light speed in simple moves. Like kicking, or punching. Maybe it's the nature of light. Just like darkness sucks everything in, light can only move in a straight line. It changes direction only by reflecting.

He still moves at light, his reactions are probablly hypersonic+ though. I'll repeat this again Speed=/= Reaction speed.

THeir was a time when people thought that BB was undefeatable but then Ace fought near evenly with him. I can use the same logic.

BB was surprised by Ace who has a much less haxxed ability then Apoo.

Ray was losing against him, he was panting, Kizaru was not, Kizaru was making jokes, Ray had more damage lines.

And Ray>>>>>Ace seriously Ray is high tier theirs no way Ace is stronger then Ray.

bittman

September 29, 2008, 06:32 PM

Near evenly? You make it sound like Ace is weaksauce and that Blackbeard severely struggled. This the same Blackbeard who scared and scarred Shanks before even obtaining a devil fruit?

Besides, comparison arguments suck. It's almost like saying Luffy can beat Kaidou because he beat Moria.

I stick by my "Blackbeard is the final villain" theory.

Onomatopoeia

September 29, 2008, 07:12 PM

10+ years ago when he wasn't a Yonkou...

Ace was fighting near evenly with BB. Perhaps I stressed Ray>Ace a bit to much but that doesn't change the fact that Ray has been more impressive then Ace. And we have severely good reason to believe that Ray is stronger then Ace.

Honestly we know nothing of that fight, it happened offpanel. Off panel arguements suck, on-panel arguements not so much.

Current incarnations not 500+ chapters from now. It's more then likely that if he does become the Final Villain then he will Beat Kizaru but I'm arguing about here and now not at the end of OP. It's like saying that Luffy could beat WB because at the end of OP he's going to become Pirate King.

And seriously Kicksplosion to face.

kkck

September 29, 2008, 08:34 PM

^How do you know shanks wasnt a yonkou at the time? Only because he wasnt in the new world, doesnt mean that he wasnt a yonkou.

Onomatopoeia

September 29, 2008, 09:49 PM

^How do you know shanks wasnt a yonkou at the time? Only because he wasnt in the new world, doesnt mean that he wasnt a yonkou.

Okay this is where common sense kicks in were talking about a Yonkou leaving The New World, crossing the Red Line going all the way across the Grand Line, entering the East Blue to some random town. When a Yonkou even moves to meet another Yonkou entire fleets are prepared and when a Yonkou tries to leave the New World war begins.

Yeah did you happen to see any VA's/Buster Call Ships/Entire Battalions/Admirals. At this one random East Blue Town? Because I sure didn't not only that but the One Piece Villagers know a surprising amount of konwledge and would have mentioned if he was a Yonkou. Seriously that town would be in a case of constant war if a Yonkou was their.

kkck

September 29, 2008, 10:37 PM

Okay this is where common sense kicks in were talking about a Yonkou leaving The New World, crossing the Red Line going all the way across the Grand Line, entering the East Blue to some random town. When a Yonkou even moves to meet another Yonkou entire fleets are prepared and when a Yonkou tries to leave the New World war begins.

Yeah did you happen to see any VA's/Buster Call Ships/Entire Battalions/Admirals. At this one random East Blue Town? Because I sure didn't not only that but the One Piece Villagers know a surprising amount of konwledge and would have mentioned if he was a Yonkou. Seriously that town would be in a case of constant war if a Yonkou was their.

I guess we have diferent opinions on how yonkous work. I for one, dont think yonkou have territorry of their own.

Personaly I think they are called emperors of the second half not because there is an actual section in which they rule, but because they are extremely powerfull and if they want to do something, there is no way of stoping them.

Also we dont know what exactly is the relationship between them. Since they are pirates, obviously they call each other enemies but that doesnt nesesarily mean they wait for the other to mess up in order to attack him.

And how do you know that when a yonkou leaves the new world a war begins?
Also the WG didnt want shanks and whitebeard to meet because they were afraid of an alliance between them. Most likely if they had knows they were going to fight each other, they would have let them pass with a red carpet.

And who are the one piece villagers?

bittman

September 29, 2008, 10:39 PM

For reference: I agree that Shanks was not a Yonkou 10-15(?) years ago. In fact, what might have elevated the red-haired pirate to such a status might have been his fight against Mihawk which has apparently become quite famous (given Whitebeard's comment). Of course, Yonkou status is probably much less defined than Shichibukai or Admiral so maybe he just suddenly got noticed a lot more compared to other pirates, who knows.

Kind of off topic, but hey.

On topic though: I'd like to know much more about Kizaru's background. He seems to be the oldest admiral (the red guy being a vice-admiral at the same time as Akainu) and I wonder how many famed fights he has been in. I was going to say his fruit is not quite so famed that the Supernova knew of it, but Drake was quite quick to pick it up from a Pacifista's attack so he is known for it to some degree. Rayleigh seems to acknowledge him, but there is an age difference there that makes me wonder when they met or if they just know each other's faces from fame alone.

GeckoMoria

September 30, 2008, 10:02 PM

And seriously Kicksplosion to face.

HAHAHAHAHHAHA i love when ppl post lines like this it makes reading the threads so much better well done ONO. :D

on topic: i vote BB cuz he is a very evil looking dude maybe he can eat kicksplosions to the face lol

paradoxe

September 30, 2008, 10:34 PM

the red-haired pirate to such a status might have been his fight against Mihawk which has apparently become quite famous (given Whitebeard's comment).

Well you just contradicted yourself.

Shanks fought Mihawk before he came to East Blue, so according to your statement, he must've been a Yonkou before he met Luffy. Remember Mihawk stopped asking him for duels after his arm got bitten off.

BlackHair

October 01, 2008, 11:08 AM

We didn't saw the full extent of the ability's of BB and Kiz. So Im still saying its pointless to discuss this topic to dead. I personally believe Kiz is stronger than BB, but I don't have any facts to support that. I will just go with my intuitions. Its clear BB will overpower him any time in the future, but atm I don't think so, since I dont have any high impression of his fruit, actually its lame xD

Imo BB defeated Ace without major efforts. This should be proof enough (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/441/17/). He is standing at the top and talking crap and that's near the end of the fight. Even here (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/441/19/) there are no signs of battle in BB face, while Aces face is fukked up.

About the Yonkou, I think they are powerful enough to travel wherever they wish to go. I'm also supporting the territory idea, but that doesn't have to mean they have to be always there to protect it. Its the sea, not some kind of fortress.
10 years ago: Idk if Shanks was a Yonkou or not back, but after reading this part (http://www.onemanga.com7/One_Piece/434/10/), I think even at that time he was pretty known. Maybe the Yonkou didn't existed at that time, basically the triangle balance system we have right now, don't have to be the same 10 years ago.

Onomatopoeia

October 03, 2008, 06:16 PM

Ace never attacked BB in the face and his attacks aren't meant to leave blood but burns. And besides both characters were actually quite confident at the end Ace never once doubted that he would make WB the PK.

SHanks was not a Yonkou for sure he might have been somewhat well known but anyone who thinks that he's a Yonkou is crazy, common sense dictates that the Marine's would attack any Yonkou that was all alone in their territory. Heck it's questionable whether Mihawk had his title 10+ years ago.

BlackHair

October 04, 2008, 06:21 AM

Ace never attacked BB in the face and his attacks aren't meant to leave blood but burns. And besides both characters were actually quite confident at the end Ace never once doubted that he would make WB the PK.
Actually its quite obvious that BB had the upped hand. If BB went all out as u claim, then Ace should have been on the lvl of BB, which would make the battle evenly matched.

In a evenly matched battle, both would have been dirty, blood stained, injured etc. On BB though is nothing to see.. actually he is clean at the end of the battle while on Ace there are spoors of a heavy battle.

Evenly matched battle:
Luffy vs Lucci (Enis Lobby)
Zoro vs Kaku (Enis Lobby)
Luffy vs Croco (Round 2&3)
Ray vs Kiz (only what we saw)

One-sided battle:
Jyabura vs Ussop
AoKiji vs Luffy
Nightmare Luffy vs Gecko+Oz
Mhk vs Zoro

Ace burned BB, this would have been made him dirty and the fire lance would caused inner bleeding. Still nothing to see at BB face, he is taking it all without major efforts/problems.. he had the upper hand in the whole fight.

We only saw a glimpse of the ability's of BB, same with Kiz.

common sense dictates that the Marine's would attack any Yonkou that was all alone in their territory. When was Shanks alone in the NW?

paradoxe

October 04, 2008, 10:02 AM

10+ years ago when he wasn't a Yonkou...

So you think BB didn't improve at all since 10 years ago?

*rolls eyes*

Onomatopoeia

October 04, 2008, 05:41 PM

Different people improve at different paces. *Glances at Luffy and Buggy*

Near evenly. If it is a rape then one of the opponents won't take any damage at all.

He was alone with his crew. The Marine's attack him in the New World, despite it not being their territory and thus being weaker their, he was alone with his Crew. Why wouldn't he be attacked in their territory with just his crew?

BlackHair

October 04, 2008, 07:33 PM

Near evenly. If it is a rape then one of the opponents won't take any damage at all.Actually it was a rape. The only reason why he took damage from Ace was:
Ace is the brother of the protagonist and a long known character, thus he has quite a amount of fans. Oda probably didn't wanted to let them down and drew the battle not too one-sided and let him shine with a few fire hits at the beginning of the fight. After all it was Aces real first battle.
Oda wanted to explain the ability of BB, therefore he had to take some hits to let us understand why he went after that fruit etc

Its up to u how u read the situation, for me its its crystal clear who had the upper hand in the whole fight.

Why wouldn't he be attacked in their territory with just his crew?I guess the Marine didn't wanted to provoke a war unnecessary, if there is no clear victory in sight. After all, they must have fought in the past many times without victory, at some point they must have started to call the most powerful pirates by the name Yonko and let them for the time being in peace.

Anyway, didn't u wanted to prove that Shanks wasn't a Yonko 10 years ago? With what I would agree.

paradoxe

October 04, 2008, 10:32 PM

Different people improve at different paces. *Glances at Luffy and Buggy*

And you think BB improved slowly?

Hmm ok.

Onomatopoeia

October 05, 2008, 11:17 AM

Actually it was a rape. The only reason why he took damage from Ace was:
Ace is the brother of the protagonist and a long known character, thus he has quite a amount of fans. Oda probably didn't wanted to let them down and drew the battle not too one-sided and let him shine with a few fire hits at the beginning of the fight. After all it was Aces real first battle.
Oda wanted to explain the ability of BB, therefore he had to take some hits to let us understand why he went after that fruit etc

Its up to u how u read the situation, for me its its crystal clear who had the upper hand in the whole fight.

I guess the Marine didn't wanted to provoke a war unnecessary, if there is no clear victory in sight. After all, they must have fought in the past many times without victory, at some point they must have started to call the most powerful pirates by the name Yonko and let them for the time being in peace.

Anyway, didn't u wanted to prove that Shanks wasn't a Yonko 10 years ago? With what I would agree.

So what you can read Oda's mind now...? Because thats what your first points amounts to.And fans don't mean crap or else Kaku would have appeared a lot more.

As for your second point BB explained his ability and still got hit. That means your second point is void.

@Paradoxe: I think that Shanks increased at a Luffy level pace while BB increased at a much more normal pace.

paradoxe

October 05, 2008, 11:25 AM

@Paradoxe: I think that Shanks increased at a Luffy level pace while BB increased at a much more normal pace.

BB has been shown to be Luffy's opposite.

So I think it'd be him who'd improve at a 'Luffy' pace..considering how Oda is building him up to be the final villain and all that.

Onomatopoeia

October 05, 2008, 11:34 AM

BB has been shown to be Luffy's opposite.

So I think it'd be him who'd improve at a 'Luffy' pace..considering how Oda is building him up to be the final villain and all that.

Yeah but Shanks got his arm bitten off by a Sea King. If any of the CP9 had run into that same Sea King they would have just said "Tekkai" and the Sea King would have broken all of it's teeth. But Shanks is a Yonkou now so Shanks>>>>>CP9

BlackHair

October 05, 2008, 11:48 AM

Well, obviously I can't read Odas mind and I never said anything like that. I was just explaining how I see the situation, if u interpreted that differently, then u simply misunderstood me.

And fans don't mean crap or else Kaku would have appeared a lot more.As I said, Ace shined in his obviously losing battle with a few hits, coz he has a lot of fans. I never said fans mean crap, don't quote me wrong.

As for your second point BB explained his ability and still got hit. That means your second point is void.Like I said, he had to take hits to describe his ability.

To give u a example of what Im talking about: Ace is firing fire (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/441/10/) -> BB got hit -> BB sucks it in (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/441/11/). Therefore we can see how a part of his ability works; to get hit is necessary to understand how it works. 4th panel, BB is explaining it (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/441/11/).

Onomatopoeia

October 05, 2008, 12:00 PM

Well, obviously I can't read Odas mind and I never said anything like that. I was just explaining how I see the situation, if u interpreted that differently, then u simply misunderstood me.

As I said, Ace shined in his obviously losing battle with a few hits, coz he has a lot of fans. I never said fans mean crap, don't quote me wrong.

Like I said, he had to take hits to describe his ability.

To give u a example of what Im talking about: Ace is firing fire (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/441/10/) -> BB got hit -> BB sucks it in (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/441/11/). Therefore we can see how a part of his ability works; to get hit is necessary to understand how it works. 4th panel, BB is explaining it (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/441/11/).

Actually where did Ace score in the Shonen Popularity poll, anyone know? Anyways Fanservice is a bad arguement, if I wanted to I could give victories for everything because of Fanservice...

Didn't explain my self well enough, what I meant was BB still got hit here (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/441/15/) this is after he had explained his DF's power and everything else. Since we understand how his powers work he had no reason for himself to get hit...

BlackHair

October 05, 2008, 12:20 PM

Actually where did Ace score in the Shonen Popularity poll, anyone know?
At the bottom (http://www.mangascreener.com/stephen/onepiece/chapter419.txt) || Image (http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/5236/onepiece41500bby8.jpg) Just goggled :p

Anyways Fanservice is a bad arguement, if I wanted to I could give victories for everything because of Fanservice...
You are right, Fanservice is a bad argument, but I don't think any other character is like Ace, who is long known, shown with a awesome fire logia ability and tied with the protagonist. Even fanserver must have a limit, u can't give that to anyone.

Since we understand how his powers work he had no reason for himself to get hit...hm ur right.. on the other hand u could put it under Aces fanservice xD

Anyway, that battle was nowhere to be called even. Just read through the chapter (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/441/01/) and compare BBs with Aces desperate face. Even right before the end (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/441/17/) Ace is kneeing down, while BB is standing like there was no sign of battle.

paradoxe

October 05, 2008, 09:54 PM

Yeah but Shanks got his arm bitten off by a Sea King. If any of the CP9 had run into that same Sea King they would have just said "Tekkai" and the Sea King would have broken all of it's teeth. But Shanks is a Yonkou now so Shanks>>>>>CP9

...

Thats a minor plot hole

I wish people would stop using that in their arguements. Its pretty obvious Shanks did not dodge the Seaking or used a type of 'tekkai' because he wanted to show how important his nakama was. Without this scene, it is possible Luffy would not have been inspired to be a pirate.

So please. Shanks was already really powerful then. Probably not a Yonkou like you said..but still a very powerful pirate.

Onomatopoeia

October 05, 2008, 10:36 PM

...

Thats a minor plot hole

I wish people would stop using that in their arguements. Its pretty obvious Shanks did not dodge the Seaking or used a type of 'tekkai' because he wanted to show how important his nakama was. Without this scene, it is possible Luffy would not have been inspired to be a pirate.

So please. Shanks was already really powerful then. Probably not a Yonkou like you said..but still a very powerful pirate.

Actually I think it makes plenty of sense, Oda himself stated that he never meant OP to run near this long and it would be 5 years at most. Because of this many of the characters in the early chapters despite being top teir when comparing featz to someone like say Aokijii or Kizaru get blown out of the water.

To make Shanks a Yonkou level power and thus stronger then even the Admirals(maybe) he would have to have Shanks increase at an amazing pace.

paradoxe

October 05, 2008, 11:06 PM

He fought Mihawk 10 years back.

I think we can safely say he was already an incredibly powerful pirate back then.

BB has improved in power faster then Shanks has.

Onomatopoeia

October 06, 2008, 01:35 PM

He fought Mihawk 10 years back.

I think we can safely say he was already an incredibly powerful pirate back then.

BB has improved in power faster then Shanks has.

I'd put him tops at Kaku level back then. He had to become a Yonkou from their. BB didn't.

I wan't evidence showing that Mihawk was an extremely powerful pirate 10+ years ago.

And besides Shanks>BB so that means Shanks became stronger faster then BB.

paradoxe

October 07, 2008, 01:36 AM

And besides Shanks>BB so that means Shanks became stronger faster then BB.

Why do you say Shanks is more powerful then BB?

Besides...

Shanks was already an established pirate 10 years back.

BB was only a grunt, hardly known by anyone at all.

Forward 10 years and he rapes Ace, a world reknowned pirate, has a DF which is arguably the most powerful in the world and is a member of the Shichibukai, one of the 3 World powers.

Onomatopoeia

October 07, 2008, 02:40 PM

Why do you say Shanks is more powerful then BB?

Besides...

Shanks was already an established pirate 10 years back.

BB was only a grunt, hardly known by anyone at all.

Forward 10 years and he rapes Ace, a world reknowned pirate, has a DF which is arguably the most powerful in the world and is a member of the Shichibukai, one of the 3 World powers.

First a rape it was not. A rape is when someone doesn't even get a hit on the other person. For example see Luffy vs Lucci, Zoro vs Mihawk, Kizaru vs Rookies etc. Ace got multiple hits on BB.

How would you know that BB was a grunt? To be a rookie on Shanks's crew you have to have a bounty of 94 million. It might have been even harder to get on WBs ship. So it's more then possible that back then he was already very strong back in the day.

Yonkou 1 on 1 rip the Sichi's a new one. Sichi's might have a chance thanks to numbers. Quality over Quantity.

And Shanks was only an estabished pirate because he was on Gold Roger's ship. Remember he was equal to BUGGY at one point. And from their he became Yonkou. He had better have become stronger fast...

Highseas7

October 07, 2008, 02:49 PM

OK listen BB is probblay even more experinced or at the very least as experince as Kizaru, he sailed on WB ship for how long? wiithout even a bounty on his head he killed one of the divison's leader captian and scarred shanks which we all have seen what shanks could do, so to say he would lose to kizaru is a load of bulloax

BlackHair

October 07, 2008, 03:13 PM

Onomatopoeia

October 07, 2008, 05:49 PM

BB killed a division captain and sailed on WBs ship for a while.

Kizaru was beating Ray and is an Admiral.

Guess who wins out.

Darkever

October 07, 2008, 09:15 PM

Teach would brutally win.

We still haven't seen Kiraru's full potential, but most of his power comes from moving at the speed of light ("speed is weight"). Teach grabs him, and it's GG. As we saw in Teach vs Ace, Luffy vs Crocodile and Luffy vs Enel, logia users are the most handicapped when their powers are negated, because they're not used on being hit physically. So they naturally don't have an high endurance (something that Luffy, Zoro, Teach and many others instead do).

bittman

October 07, 2008, 10:20 PM

To sum up what most anti-Blackbeard's are saying:

"He's only a Shichibukai". Well, I say Luffy is only a rookie so he'll never beat any of the above [/sarcasm+nearsightedness].
+
"He takes damage". I'm pretty sure logia's take damage too...
+
"He was a nobody on Whitebeard's ship". I'm sure Kizaru didn't join the marines as an admiral.

EDIT: Lookey what I found on a yellow databook trans =D

The person who left three scars on Shanks' face!!
Shanks: "What hurts the most now is this scar...!!!"
Shanks got the scars on his face during his battle with Blackbeard. Able to injure Shanks without the help of the Dark Dark Fruit, Blackbeard's power should be considered as incredible...?!
[http://forums.narutofan.com/showthread.php?t=311441]

BlackHair

October 08, 2008, 11:46 AM

Kizaru was beating Ray and is an Admiral.
Plz show me a proof that he was beating Ray. If the fight would have continued Ray probably would have lost, but the fight we saw was quite evenly. Ray even managed to cut Kiz, 'cause he underestimated him and tried to go after the SHs.

Since Luffys Vive card isn't damaged like Aces, I believe he was able get away from Kiz.. which wouldn't have happened if Kiz was beating Ray.

Teach would brutally win.

We still haven't seen Kiraru's full potential, but most of his power comes from moving at the speed of light ("speed is weight"). Teach grabs him, and it's GG. As we saw in Teach vs Ace, Luffy vs Crocodile and Luffy vs Enel, logia users are the most handicapped when their powers are negated, because they're not used on being hit physically. So they naturally don't have an high endurance (something that Luffy, Zoro, Teach and many others instead do).
While I agree with u that most logias physical endurance isn't high, cause they are not used to hit so much, I don't think its just that simple fighting an Admiral. Do u rly think its that easy for BB to grab him? If Kiz would straight aim after him with one of his speed kicks, I highly doubt he would be able to grab that and Kiz has also his long range laser attacks.

[..]"He takes damage". I'm pretty sure logia's take damage too...

Lookey what I found on a yellow databook trans =D [..]

Logia does take damage, but no way even to BB (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/441/11/) (5th panel).

And about Shanks scar, that happened 10 years ago (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/1/07/) and we already know that BB is strong, but I fail to see how that would put him above Kiz.

Anyway, I changed my mind. Im now also supporting BB. 'cause I believe he is about the same age of Shanks, Mihawk etc. He sailed on WBs ship for decades (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/440/17/), thus I believe he must have enough experience and knowledge. Therefore, Im putting him as one if the character of a shounen story, who can't grow any more in battle power. They have already reached their limit.

BB wants to be the next PK. It was never said u have to be the strongest to be the next PK. In the upcoming War, by taking out WB he would have lost his biggest hindrance. Basically Im assuming he "is" or "around" the 2nd strongest man right now, the one who will overpower him someday will be Luffy and not Kiz.

Though I believe Luffy will be never able to beat AoKiji.. that's why I said BB is around the 2nd strongest guy.

Onomatopoeia

October 08, 2008, 03:23 PM

Plz show me a proof that he was beating Ray. If the fight would have continued Ray probably would have lost, but the fight we saw was quite evenly. Ray even managed to cut Kiz, 'cause he underestimated him and tried to go after the SHs.
Since Luffys Vive card isn't damaged like Aces, I believe he was able get away from Kiz.. which wouldn't have happened if Kiz was beating Ray.

While I agree with u that most logias physical endurance isn't high, cause they are not used to hit so much, I don't think its just that simple fighting an Admiral. Do u rly think its that easy for BB to grab him? If Kiz would straight aim after him with one of his speed kicks, I highly doubt he would be able to grab that and Kiz has also his long range laser attacks.

Logia does take damage, but no way even to BB (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/441/11/) (5th panel).

And about Shanks scar, that happened 10 years ago (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/1/07/) and we already know that BB is strong, but I fail to see how that would put him above Kiz.

Anyway, I changed my mind. Im now also supporting BB. 'cause I believe he is about the same age of Shanks, Mihawk etc. He sailed on WBs ship for decades (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/440/17/), thus I believe he must have enough experience and knowledge. Therefore, Im putting him as one if the character of a shounen story, who can't grow any more in battle power. They have already reached their limit.

BB wants to be the next PK. It was never said u have to be the strongest to be the next PK. In the upcoming War, by taking out WB he would have lost his biggest hindrance. Basically Im assuming he "is" or "around" the 2nd strongest man right now, the one who will overpower him someday will be Luffy and not Kiz.

Though I believe Luffy will be never able to beat AoKiji.. that's why I said BB is around the 2nd strongest guy.

Ray cut him because Kizaru was underestimating him, Luffy's underestimated people before and it's costed him but in the end he usually wins. He got cut because he underestimated Ray, he wouldn't underestimate BB so it's not important to the discussion in the first place...

Anyways Ray was panting while Kizaru was making jokes, I thought it was rather obvious who was winning. And as for the next part, once the SHs left their was no reason for Ray to stay around, so he probablly just ran away, it's not that crazy. And honestly we have no idea what really happened, Kuma is such a wild card in this, that was completely off panel so saying that Ray just "escaped" is completely unbacked a lot of things could happen. It's not exactly cut and dry.

You know I could quite easily say the same is true and probablly even more true for Kizaru who looks even older then Shanks and Mihawk. And using your logic Buggy the Clown can't get any stronger but he's been increasing his power since him and Luffy met, by a lot.

Anyways when they were on the same ship together Shanks was equal to Buggy.

paradoxe

October 09, 2008, 05:57 AM

I thought it was rather obvious who was winning

And I thought it was quite obvious that BB was raping Ace.

He knew he could take Ace's shots, so he did, to show off his power and to allow Oda a chance to give us a glimpse of his DF power.

BlackHair

October 09, 2008, 06:33 AM

Ray cut him because Kizaru was underestimating him, Luffy's underestimated people before and it's costed him but in the end he usually wins. He got cut because he underestimated Ray, he wouldn't underestimate BB so it's not important to the discussion in the first place...

Anyways Ray was panting while Kizaru was making jokes, I thought it was rather obvious who was winning.
Well, its Kiz's own fault for underestimating Ray. After all, he is a world known and respected strong fighter with a bounty on his head. Even under this circumstances Kiz wasn't taking him serious enough, why should he BB? Kiz is a monkey, like his face and name tells.

While I agree with u, that he would win, I wouldn't take that panting of Ray seriously. 'Cause in later panels there are no signs of that, that's why I said the fight "we saw" was evenly.

Regarding Ace vs BB, be it fan-service or showing off BB darkness fruit, Ace managed to draw out BB power, I can give him that much credit and to call it ode-sided or rape is perhaps wrong, but that fight was noway in hell even. He had the upper-hand in the whole fight.

With that said, I'm not punting 'cause of that BB above Kiz, since u can't compare Ray with Ace.

You know I could quite easily say the same is true and probablly even more true for Kizaru who looks even older then Shanks and Mihawk. And using your logic Buggy the Clown can't get any stronger but he's been increasing his power since him and Luffy met, by a lot.

Anyways when they were on the same ship together Shanks was equal to Buggy.
BB was in WBs crew for decades in the new world, thus he must have gained power, experience, knowledge etc. He made his move only after gaining his fruit. Therefore I believe, he must be confident in himself and must have reached his peak of his power, same with Kiz, he must be right now at his peak as an Admiral.

And about Buggy, he is in a complete different situation. Though I believe he must have gained knowledge and experience on Rogers ship, u can't compare that with BB or Shanks. Who are mainly sailing in the new world, where a complete different fighting-power is asked. Buggy wasn't as long as BB on a mighty ship and he isn't sailing like Shanks active in the NW.

By comparing him with Shanks its more than clear, that he lacks in power, therefore there must be enough space for him to grow even in his age, unlike Kiz, BB or Shanks.

Anyway, that's how I read the situation, don't ask for proofs, 'cause I obviously don't have any.

btw it was never said, that Buggy is increasing in power if I recall correctly, though I believe we will see him later.

Highseas7

October 09, 2008, 01:40 PM

blackhair come on man shanks even said the scar he had on his eye he had got fromTeach and he siad it himself he was actually fightin teach so that says alot about teach fightin prowness and his whole plot to overthorw WB talks alot about his wisdom and intellect so yea i still stand by my evidence man

BlackHair

October 09, 2008, 02:29 PM

But we don't have any background details about the BB vs Shanks fight, if it was a proper fight. They could have fought under any kind of circumstances. By putting him above Shanks doesn't make him exactly stronger than Kiz, and not to mention the whole thing happened 10 years ago.. a lot of things evolved since then.

BB is darkness while Kiz is light. There powers in element is equal, while the ability's makes the difference. I know Im supporting BB and now talking against in his favour doesn't rly make any sense, but I fail to see any arguments regarding BB power in this.

And his whole plot to overthrow WB after serving under him for decades is imo a cowardly way to do things.

Edit: Sry about the "scarring" and "attention" part. I was misreading ur post, yes it was BB who put a scar on Shanks face.

Onomatopoeia

October 09, 2008, 05:03 PM

BB vs Shanks is about the equivalent of Garp cornering Roger, Moria vs Kaidou, etc. Guess what all those fights have in common? They're off panel. If you come here using that as an example then get prepared to leave.

Secondly BB might have a good plan but Croc blows his out of the water, but Croc still lost to Luffy. Just because your intelligent doesn't mean your strong(see Luffy)

Bhair about BB's plan theirs a problem in it, Black Beard had to leave the ship, he just killed a division commander. Theirs no way he could have stayed on that ship for more then a few days and thats if he was lucky. He had to get the hell out of their once he got the fruit, it had nothing to do with being at his peak it had to do with the fact that he knew he couldn't beat WB at that point.

10+ years ago Shanks was in the East Blue and not the New World, I think I can compare...

Buggy has most certainly been increasing his power, though we have to use powerscaling to figure it out. Let me put it like this Buggy was at best a medium level pirate in the east blue, which is the weakest of all the sea's. To survive in the Grand Line he would have to get tons stronger, add in the fact that interestingly he wasn't shocked at all by the admission that Luffy had hit 100 million. If he had kept his current power level he would have ended his revenge trip their.

As for Ace only getting hits on BB because we needed an idea of BB's fruit,how many times am I gonna need to post this? (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/441/15/) This was after BB explained his abilities, this also showed BB shocked that Ace hit him.

The best arguement you have for Ace getting in those hits is Fanservice and honestly thats a really bad one. Not only has Oda rarely(if at all) used Fanservice but Ace isn't even among the top 5 to get a noticeable amount of fanservice I'd say Ace needed to be at least in the top 5. No character in OP who was in the top 5 has done ridiculous things that you know are impossible, thus no fanservice.

And even then it's a double edged sword, I can just as easily say that Ray not getting beat down into dust was because Oda needed some fanservice for the former First Mate of Gold Rogers, as you can say Ace getting hits in was fanservice.

BlackHair

October 09, 2008, 07:20 PM

Bhair about BB's plan theirs a problem in it, Black Beard had to leave the ship, he just killed a division commander. Theirs no way he could have stayed on that ship for more then a few days and thats if he was lucky. He had to get the hell out of their once he got the fruit, it had nothing to do with being at his peak it had to do with the fact that he knew he couldn't beat WB at that point.After watching some detective series: I agree BB had to leave after killing Sacchi, but that doesn't have to be the only reason. Looking at Ace's reaction (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/440/17/), I think WB didn't rly knew why BB killed Sacchi. Therefore I believe there were no witnesses at the crime scene otherwise there would have been probably more dead crew-mates. So basically Im concluding: wouldn't it make BB less or not at all suspicions if he would stayed on WBs ship? I think, as one of the reason why he left the ship was, 'cause he was confident in himself and his new power.

At this point its only speculation, but it does make sense, doesn't it? :p

10+ years ago Shanks was in the East Blue and not the New World, I think I can compare...
Well, like u said Shanks was equal to Buggy and lets assume they were 'till Roger disbanded the crew. So why is now Shanks on complete different lvl than Buggy? Probably 'cause Shanks is spending most of his time in the NW, while Buggy is doing his bad-ass stuff in a unimportant sea. I'm pretty sure 'that Buggy spend most of his time in east blue, 'cause Shanks wasn't even sure what Buggy is doing right now (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/434/10/) and how his crew reacted as they heard they were heading towards the grand line (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/100/23/).

Anyway, I was talking about the present not what was years ago.

Buggy has most certainly been increasing his power, though we have to use powerscaling to figure it out. Let me put it like this Buggy was at best a medium level pirate in the east blue, which is the weakest of all the sea's. To survive in the Grand Line he would have to get tons stronger, add in the fact that interestingly he wasn't shocked at all by the admission that Luffy had hit 100 million. If he had kept his current power level he would have ended his revenge trip their.
I guess Buggy wasn't surprised since he used to be on Rogers ship. He must have seen WB and Roger fighting, Garp chasing their asses and many more frighting things. So 100M shouldn't be any shock for him. I also believe Buggy would have survived in his lvl as he was back in east blue. Most of the SHs fights in the grand line was 'cause of emotional motives, which Buggy wouldn't have done. So there is no actual need for a power-up.

While I also believe we will see him later with a power-up, but this is speculation at this point. there ain't no proof for that. There is still the possibility to keep Buggy as some kind of funny character or sth, without major power. I mean we have already plenty of strong dudes out there.. there is no real need for a red nose.

About Ace vs BB, I hope u r not referring to me, 'cause I corrected myself.
Regarding Ace vs BB, be it fan-service or showing off BBs darkness fruit, Ace managed to draw out BB power, I can give him that much credit and to call it ode-sided or rape is perhaps wrong, but that fight was noway in hell even. He had the upper-hand in the whole fight.
And about fan-service, u rly can't give that to anyone. But Ace was long known and shown with a fire logia ability, thus many fans was hoping to see him fight properly. He was scoring pretty good (http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/5236/onepiece41500bby8.jpg), even though he wasn't seen in the manga for years (our time-line). I highly doubt u could do that with Ray, who was seen in a bit action after he was introduced.

But that shouldn't matter in any case, since we haven't seen Kiz and BB in full of their ability. And by comparing the fights with Ray and Ace doesn't proof any thing, 'cause these two individuals are on a different lvl.

Tenryuken

December 03, 2008, 12:28 PM

I voted Teach cuz Kizaru's power is just the same as Ace's except that Kizaru is a lot faster.

Kaiser Will

December 09, 2008, 09:43 PM

I vote in Kurohige too! For me his logia type is the best! He defeated Ace in a fight, and he make a scar in Shanks, one of the Yonko! So he can defeated Kizaru but he will get spanked a little bit!

Reenie

December 09, 2008, 11:41 PM

Onomatopoeia

December 10, 2008, 05:36 PM

People are underestimating Blackbeard. The only reason Ace got a couple hits in and damaged Blackbeard was firstly that Blackbeard wanted to show off and secondly because he wanted to recruit Ace into his crew.

And the people who are praising Kizaru for being strong because he got Rayleigh to pant are silly. Rayleigh would probably start panting after running a couple of miles because he's OLD ><. That only suggests Kizaru got Rayleigh to exercise a bit after all this time he's been living the sedentary life as a ship mechanic. Last time I checked panting was only a sign that your muscles are not getting enough oxygen and not that you're losing a fight. Okay Kizaru has a stronger cardiovascular system than Rayleigh. How does that make him stronger than Blackbeard again?
Endurance is a part of strength.

Kizaru>=Rayleigh
BB>Ace

And how does beating Ace make him stronger then Ray, especially if you consider the fact that he also had the surprise factor in their somewhere.

In my opinion being stronger or equal to Ray is a much better accomplisment then being stronger then Ace.

Anyways the bolded part

I'm pretty sure this page (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/441/15/) exemplifies what I"m talking about. After getting over the Shock Factor of BBs attack Ace gets hit for hit in on BB. BB punches him Ace hits him with a fire lance. THey're both hurt, sure doesn't seem hopeless to me. And hey if BB said it was painful that means it was painful.

This was after BB explained his ability. And during the attack so BB couldn't have been holding back. BB wouldn't hold punches back anyways.

Gecko Moria

December 13, 2008, 10:35 PM

Tie. Really depends on how its played out. For example if kizaru just snipes BB from afar with those hackz lasers. But on the other hand if BB can get kizaru close enough with his "black hole" ability and nullify his DF and punch him up abit then BB will win.

bittman

December 14, 2008, 03:45 AM

Well Gecko, you make it sound like Blackbeard is an immobile tank. I imagine he could be sniped from an insane distance, but I also imagine that's pretty easy to dodge from such a distance.

I do wonder what Blackbeard's black hole range is. Somehow, given that he swallowed an entire town, I imagine it's quite large. Probably as far as he can see even.

But anyway Gecko, you had the magic words there. "Depends on how its played out". Because really, if we go off powers alone Luffy should never have defeated Moria. But when you add in Nightmare form and the sun's time pressure the fight became much more hectic. So on that note, both are powerful and I would almost agree that it would be a tie if there were absolutely no prevailing factors. But since this is One Piece and not dragonballz, there are always prevailing factors.

Teach

May 14, 2009, 09:34 AM

Razh

May 14, 2009, 09:40 AM

Kizaru can dish out quite the damage, so can Blackbeard. The problem that Kizaru would have is Dark Vortex, he can't avoid it. I think Blackbeard is physically stronger than Kizaru and he could pummel Kizaru while holding him.

I hate when people say that Blackbeard can hold people and pummel them. What's to stop someone from putting his fist between Blackbeard's teeth or kicking him in the groin? Especially if it's someone big. Who can kick with the speed of light.
And before actually grabbing Kizaru, Blackbeard should first have to avoid a laser or two.

goldb

May 14, 2009, 10:10 AM

I hate when people say that Blackbeard can hold people and pummel them. What's to stop someone from putting his fist between Blackbeard's teeth or kicking him in the groin? Especially if it's someone big. Who can kick with the speed of light.
And before actually grabbing Kizaru, Blackbeard should first have to avoid a laser or two.

I agree with you....

I think BB's fruit is most effective against DF users who prefer close combat. For people like Kizaru who can attack from a distance, he would firstly have to be close enough to draw him in( as of now we don't know the distance limit his Kurouzu(Dark Vortex) has) but what's to say Kizaru won't just stay away and bombared him with lasers?

and he can move at the speed of light, dunno how fast BB's reflexes are....

BlackHair

May 14, 2009, 10:16 AM

Actually I think Kiz is a swordsman, so he might be originally a close-ranch fighter. Anyway he didn't took distance while fighting the Supernova or Ray. Not saying BB has now easier chance grabbing him, in fact I don't, since a swordsman should have fast reflex and agility to avoid be touched/grabbed by BB.

That said, I don't who would win though.

Belisar

May 14, 2009, 10:42 AM

his may still be in a normal body but if hecan withstand ace's attack then he is a real hard nutshell. and to survive that frikkin bin fireball of ace he really can deal with most attacks directed at him.
yami yami no mi gives you not only the solid body but also hypesensibility to physical attacks.
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/441/10/
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/441/11/

blackbeard's strong physical strenght remains but his defenses are only of a big man or even lower.
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/441/12/
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/441/13/

blackbeard can defend against attacks with his fruit. maybe he can suck in attacks or create some sort of shields with gravity.
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/441/16/
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/441/17/
as you see he used "dark vortex" to defend against "crossfire".

besides: ace's "flame emperor" did he defeated with his darkness ball.
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/441/19/

mugen

May 14, 2009, 05:34 PM

from what i see, once you get away from BB darkness thing, he's nothing. So Monkey admiral has nothing to worry about. he just has to keep attacking from long distances. Plus he even fights with a sword, even better for close combat. what does bb have? endurance and a couple of hits on Kizaru if he can even touch him? I think its safe to say Kizaru has this fight.

Teach

May 14, 2009, 05:56 PM

Kizaru can't run, BB can just use Dark Vortex to close up the gap.

I hate when people say that Blackbeard can hold people and pummel them. What's to stop someone from putting his fist between Blackbeard's teeth or kicking him in the groin? Especially if it's someone big. Who can kick with the speed of light.
And before actually grabbing Kizaru, Blackbeard should first have to avoid a laser or two.

What feats does Kizaru have outside his DF? None, for all we know he might die from a single punch. And when BB grabs you, you aren't going to use any DF powers.

Also BB tanked hiken, a laser will do jack shit to BB.

Razh

May 14, 2009, 06:12 PM

Kizaru can't run, BB can just use Dark Vortex to close up the gap.

What feats does Kizaru have outside his DF? None, for all we know he might die from a single punch. And when BB grabs you, you aren't going to use any DF powers.

Also BB tanked hiken, a laser will do jack shit to BB.

And Kizaru doesn't have to run. He can shoot lasers, kick with the speed of light, blind people and can conjure a goddamn jedi lightsaber.

What feats does he have? Well, one can only conclude that not everyone gets to be an Admiral and that Kizaru has years of combat experience. He certainly knows how to fight and how to wield a sword. The fact that he was at least even if not a little better than Roger's first mate, and we've seen what he is capable of, shows that he is a seasoned fighter.

It's not over when Blackbeard grabs someone. I'm getting tired of it. Ace was grabbed a couple of times, and he still kept fighting. Kizaru winds this one, for now. Blackbeard is just getting started. He's not an unbeatable monster. He may have not shown everything against Ace. But neither did Kizaru. He kept firing those lasers with one of his fingers. What if he uses more fingers? What if he fires one giant-ass laser?
Blackbeard only negates powers while he's touching someone. And Kizaru can do a lot while he's not close to Blackbeard.

Also, Kizaru knows about Blackbeard's power. Don't anyone try to prove me otherwise. WG and top tier Marines are supposed to know a lot about Shichibukai. Blackbeard had to demonstrate his powers to be accepted as Shichibukai.

Franckie

May 14, 2009, 07:05 PM

Rayleigh was strong enough to stall and even injure Kizaru. On top of that Rayleigh wasn't captured in the process. This proves beyond a reasonable doubt that Kizaru is far from invincible. As for BB, he too is legendary like Rayleigh, and that was before he ate a Logia fruit of the strongest kind, yet unique even to them. On top of that, BB is the leading candidate for final villain, meaning he outranks Kizaru in terms of powerscaling. BB wins this.

bittman

May 14, 2009, 07:07 PM

Ace was Vortex'ed at least twice, quite possibly more, it's wasn't over then. In fact, it only really began when he was hit with the first vortex+punch combo.

So yeah, though I agree with Kizaru supporters that Kizaru should have an advantage at range, and should be able to hold his ground in close range with his sword and kicks, I still rate Blackbeard higher because:

He is much more than his darkness devil fruit. If this was a false statement, Shanks got his scar from being clawed as a baby and Thatch was killed in his sleep.

Razh

May 14, 2009, 07:23 PM

Blackbeard may be a candidate for a leading villain, but that's still in the future. Kizaru is more powerful now. That's all there is to it.

Blackbeard is not legendary. Can't even compare to Rayleigh in that. He and Shanks fought before. Who knows when. And Shanks got scratched over his eye. I'm not saying Blackbeard is weak. I'm saying he's not some unbeatable monster.
Also, he doesn't have a logia of the strongest kind.
Check out how Kizaru handled those Supernovas. Didn't break a sweat. And he got injured bi Rayleigh? When? I only saw a cut over the cheek. That's u superficial wound. Rayleigh wasn't able to beat him. He could just stall him.

Teach

May 14, 2009, 07:29 PM

And Kizaru doesn't have to run. He can shoot lasers, kick with the speed of light, blind people and can conjure a goddamn jedi lightsaber.He can't run even if he wanted to, he gets sucked in and destroyed.

What feats does he have? Well, one can only conclude that not everyone gets to be an Admiral and that Kizaru has years of combat experience. He certainly knows how to fight and how to wield a sword. The fact that he was at least even if not a little better than Roger's first mate, and we've seen what he is capable of, shows that he is a seasoned fighter.
In other words, you have nothing, he made a sword out of light, without his DF Kizaru is nothing.

It's not over when Blackbeard grabs someone. I'm getting tired of it. Ace was grabbed a couple of times, and he still kept fighting. Kizaru winds this one, for now. Blackbeard is just getting started. He's not an unbeatable monster. He may have not shown everything against Ace. But neither did Kizaru. He kept firing those lasers with one of his fingers. What if he uses more fingers? What if he fires one giant-ass laser?
Blackbeard only negates powers while he's touching someone. And Kizaru can do a lot while he's not close to Blackbeard.Yes it is over when he grabs you, he can just hold you and pummel you. Also he can just suck him up, Kizaru has no way of winning this bout.

Also, Kizaru knows about Blackbeard's power. Don't anyone try to prove me otherwise. WG and top tier Marines are supposed to know a lot about Shichibukai. Blackbeard had to demonstrate his powers to be accepted as Shichibukai.
He demonstrated the powers by bringing ace in, Kizaru has no knowledge of BBs power until proven otherwise and it doesn't help even if he knew.

Franckie

May 14, 2009, 07:38 PM

Blackbeard may be a candidate for a leading villain, but that's still in the future. Kizaru is more powerful now. That's all there is to it.

Good thing we aren't only going by powerscaling. We're also going by plot importance and feats - BB wins out on both.

Blackbeard is not legendary. Can't even compare to Rayleigh in that. He and Shanks fought before. Who knows when. And Shanks got scratched over his eye. I'm not saying Blackbeard is weak. I'm saying he's not some unbeatable monster.

Shanks received three permanent scars. BB received nothing, as far as we know. BB also defeated one of BB's Captains (~= Ace) before eating a DF. That means that BB was a legendary before he obtained the Yami-Yami no Mii.

Also, he doesn't have a logia of the strongest kind.

http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/440/17/

Check out how Kizaru handled those Supernovas. Didn't break a sweat. And he got injured bi Rayleigh? When? I only saw a cut over the cheek. That's u superficial wound. Rayleigh wasn't able to beat him. He could just stall him.

BB has outfought a Yonkou, defeated two of WB's Captains, and ate the world's strongest DF, yet Kizaru defeating several Supernovas is a far better feat? Lol.

If Rayleigh managed to harm Kizaru, you can bet BB can as well. There's also the matter you're entirely missing. In your own words:

And Kizaru doesn't have to run. He can shoot lasers, kick with the speed of light, blind people and can conjure a goddamn jedi lightsaber.
Kizaru couldn't even defeat Rayleigh with the abilities mentioned above, and Rayleigh was no longer at the peak of his strength as self-admitted. Obviously Kizaru's powers aren't going to help him against an opponent who is obviously more powerful than Rayleigh, such as BB.

Onomatopoeia

May 14, 2009, 08:27 PM

He can't run even if he wanted to, he gets sucked in and destroyed.
In other words, you have nothing, he made a sword out of light, without his DF Kizaru is nothing.

Yes it is over when he grabs you, he can just hold you and pummel you. Also he can just suck him up, Kizaru has no way of winning this bout.

He demonstrated the powers by bringing ace in, Kizaru has no knowledge of BBs power until proven otherwise and it doesn't help even if he knew.
When I read this post I started to h3h3h3.

Just because someone can pull you in someone doesn't necessarily mean that you can suck in someone in no matter what. If the person is moving at a faster speed then your gravitational field then he can escape(and don't give me any of that "but BB is a mini blackhole" BS, cause he's not, his Blackhole isn't even near the graviational power as an actual one, otherwise the Earth would be screwed every time he used his powers).

Kizaru can also fire kicksplosions, which would probablly hurt quite a bit since quite a few of Ace's attack also hurt BB. Also I wouldn't advise holding onto a guy who could kick at the speed of light.

BB has no knowledge of Kizaru's power until proven otherwise and it doesn't help even if he knew.

See what I did there?

Good thing we aren't only going by powerscaling. We're also going by plot importance and feats - BB wins out on both.
Plot Importance?
Quick who would win WB or Luffy?

I also don't see how he wins out on feats. Nor do I see where the powerscaling is useful to BB, Kizaru tied or was doing better then Ray who powerscaling wise is above Ace.

Kizaru couldn't even defeat Rayleigh with the abilities mentioned above, and Rayleigh was no longer at the peak of his strength as self-admitted. Obviously Kizaru's powers aren't going to help him against an opponent who is obviously more powerful than Rayleigh, such as BB.
Out of the abilities mentioned we only know that he used a Jedi Lightsaber against Ray who in all likelyhood was a swordsman in his day being able to do better then Ray under those conditions is no mean feat. Claiming he used other abilities is just hypothesis and conjecture. So yeah I see little reason to assume that Kizaru was fighting using all of his abilities like Razh claims.

mugen

May 14, 2009, 08:28 PM

imo people defending bb here is like people who say ace's power would not make a difference against aokoji . its just too funny :rofl

Teach

May 15, 2009, 06:29 AM

^What are you talking about? Ace has no way of winning Aokiji, while Aokiji can freeze Ace throughout. This is not pokemon.

When I read this post I started to h3h3h3.

Just because someone can pull you in someone doesn't necessarily mean that you can suck in someone in no matter what. If the person is moving at a faster speed then your gravitational field then he can escape(and don't give me any of that "but BB is a mini blackhole" BS, cause he's not, his Blackhole isn't even near the graviational power as an actual one, otherwise the Earth would be screwed every time he used his powers).I h3h3h3'd at this man. BB himself said not even light can escape his gravity. Your argument is invalid ono.

Kizaru can also fire kicksplosions, which would probablly hurt quite a bit since quite a few of Ace's attack also hurt BB. Also I wouldn't advise holding onto a guy who could kick at the speed of light.

Even though Hiken may not be around Kizaru's firepower, it casually destroyed 6 warships. Not to mention the Entei he somehow survived. Also BB was not hurt at all, he was perfectly fine after all those hits.

BB has no knowledge of Kizaru's power until proven otherwise and it doesn't help even if he knew. Doesn't matter if he knows, he is just gonna pull Kizaru and pummel him.

See what I did there?
It sucked LoL.

[quote]
I also don't see how he wins out on feats. Nor do I see where the powerscaling is useful to BB, Kizaru tied or was doing better then Ray who powerscaling wise is above Ace.He wins on feats and powerscaling. He's a most likely final villain. Kizaru is not.

Ono you suck at One Piece lol. Go back to OBD and crush some narutards instead of debating me here : pek:gun

mugen

May 15, 2009, 06:35 AM

i know, its science. its common sense. XD ok enough rambling .
seriously though even though everyone does say bb scarred shanks, everyone also forgets bb age. dude ain't young, and well shanks wasn't a yonkou back then either.

Razh

May 15, 2009, 06:46 AM

mugen

May 15, 2009, 06:49 AM

umm the guy who called kizaru nothing without his df is seriously funny. did he forget who it was that did nothing until he got a devil fruit.

Razh

May 15, 2009, 07:11 AM

Good thing we aren't only going by powerscaling. We're also going by plot importance and feats - BB wins out on both.

Funny, I thought we were going by what the both characters showed so far. If you want to discuss from the prospective of Blackbeard being a final villain, come back in a couple of years.

Shanks received three permanent scars. BB received nothing, as far as we know. BB also defeated one of BB's Captains (~= Ace) before eating a DF. That means that BB was a legendary before he obtained the Yami-Yami no Mii.

Shanks received superficial scratches on his face. The skin is very thin in that area so naturally it leaves a scar. You actually implied that because Shanks got scars and Blackbeard didn't get any mark, that Blackbeard is stronger. Gimme a break. Not everyone uses their nails in battle. And bruises don't stay for long. For all we know, Blackbeard could have had entire face blue after that fight. Hell, maybe Shanks is the reason why Blackbeard is missing some teeth. Lol.
All that Shanks implied to Whitebeard is that Blackbeard is more dangerous than he thinks.
Oh and Blackbeard never said that he defeated Sachi. It's more like he killed him, stole the fruit, than ran away before anybody noticed. If those two were fighting some people would see what was going on and there would be a lot more deaths than one.

BB has outfought a Yonkou, defeated two of WB's Captains, and ate the world's strongest DF, yet Kizaru defeating several Supernovas is a far better feat? Lol.

Blackbeard hasn't outfought a Yonkou. That's funny. Blackbeard fought with a rookie pirate and managed to scratch him over his eye. If you pick your brain a little you might remember that Shanks had a scar before he was a Yonkou. Actually, he had a scar even before he had his flag. That was a rookie fight at best.
Yes, Kizaru beating all those guys who were famous pirates and had bounties over 100 million is a far better than that. You see, Blackbeard scratched a rookie pirate, killed Sachi, and fought with Ace. So, it wasn't all at once.
Kizaru has beaten 4 supernovas at once, without breaking a sweat. Than continued on and would have beaten all of the Strawhats. It wouldn't matter even if they were all rested at the time. Oh and in case it's brought up, it would be the same even without the Pacifista intervention.

If Rayleigh managed to harm Kizaru, you can bet BB can as well.
Kizaru couldn't even defeat Rayleigh with the abilities mentioned above, and Rayleigh was no longer at the peak of his strength as self-admitted. Obviously Kizaru's powers aren't going to help him against an opponent who is obviously more powerful than Rayleigh, such as BB.

Rayleigh managed to surprise Kizaru by cutting him over the cheek. Kizaru obviusly didn't use all he had against Rayleigh. And after the fight went on for a while, Kizaru looked perfectly fine while Rayleigh was puffing and was looking all battered and dirty.
Also, we don't know that much about Rayleigh's abilities. We don't even know if he has a devil fruit. But he is certainly far from being a weakling, if that's what you were implying. Take Shakky's words if you won't take mine.
[hr]

umm the guy who called kizaru nothing without his df is seriously funny. did he forget who it was that did nothing until he got a devil fruit.

Touche.:amuse

Although, let's be fair. He did scratch a rookie pirate over his eye and he did kill a 4th commander on Whitebeard's crew. Probably from behind, but who cares.

Teach

May 15, 2009, 07:53 AM

This doesn't really deserve an answer. Even if Blackbeard and Kizaru fought Oda wouldn't make Kizaru lose in a few seconds. And you imply just that. You nick speaks enough. You just see a Blackbeard as unbeatable monster and whatever I write, you just repeat the same shit all over again.
If Oda made this, it would be similar to Ace fight, but this time BB would be serious from the start. With no CIS. Also you made an argument of a person(Ad hominem), I can get you banned for that.

Kizaru can move with the speed of light. He can just get out of range and shoot some lasers. Also, why would he run? He can just shoot lasers why Blackbeard is pulling him.Argumentum ad nauseum. I've said this multiple times. Kizaru will get pulled in, no matter where he wants to go, being lightspeed doesn't help him. Once he is at BBs hands he's a normal person who gets his ass punched.

No. He's a big man and he's strong. Like I said, you can't be an Admiral if you're a weakling. Kizaru is stronger than Ace, I think that's pretty much clear. Ace held out quite long fighting Blackbeard. Auge even commented on his physical strength.
Style over substance fallacy. Big deosn't necessarily mean strong. And no it isn't clear is Kizaru stronger than Ace physically. I think he's weaker, he doesn't need to be strong physically he has a light logia.

It's not over. People lose their abilities not their physical strength and not their combat experience. He can't just suck him in. First he needs to spread his field of darkness to drag someone in.No he doesn't, prove your claims about Kizaru being physically strong and BB needing field of darkness to perform Dark Vortex. Prove it or conceed.

You really have to be numb to believe that WG would give someone a title of Royal Shichibukai without even checking out what they can do.
And it does help. Ace would probably fare much batter if he knew what he was up against.

You misinterpret the story, he proved himself by bringing Ace in. Use your common sense.

Please, don't reply if you're just going to repeat your unimaginative "points".
Your arguments are just full of fallacies, you made multiple fallacies and you make baseless claims which you can't prove.

Calm down, please.
To remind you guys again we're not supporters of insulting of any sort especially personally and including bashing theories. Please discuss with constructive reasons and try making it civil. Thx.

BlackHair

May 15, 2009, 07:59 AM

I have some things I would like to say, though my vote is still undecided.

I would like to ask ppl to stop calling BB legendary. Legendary means, a man who travelled the seas, who made a name for himself and is acknowledged in the one piece world. WB is legendary, Rayleigh as the PK's right-hand is legendary, Garp as the marines hero is legendary but BB is NOT. For all we know he spend most of his time behind WB. He has yet to make a name for himself, before we call him legendary. Plz don't misunderstand me, Im not saying he is weak or he has not the potential to be called one. But at this point BB hasn't earned the word yet. Might be not so important, but it gets on my nerve.

Secondly, there is no such thing as strongest devil fruit. It depends on the usage of the owner. I mean if BB has the so called "strongest fruit", then how in hell is Luffy supposed to beat him?! Makes no sense, doesn't it?

About Shanks scratch, we know Oda is only letting his character to have scratches for a reason. The scratch on Shanks face was forecasting BB's era. I believe that's all atm. As long we don't know exactly how this scratch bred, it's just off-panel.

About Kiz vs Ray, as far as we know Oda let's always a swordsman fights his kind. So Im pretty damn sure that both are swordsman. And since Kiz was dominating, he is without doubt the better one. Though in Ray's defence, he is retired and past his time.

Fire vs Light or laser: fire needs to burn to do real damage. BB's darkness is able to suck fire in, so it won't do as much damage as it supposed to do. But if he got shot by a laser, then there is nothing to suck. One shot will do it's damage and will be more than Ace's fire. Though if BB is fast enough he could use the darkness to suck the lasers in. I doubt though that he is able to suck them all.

Now about the fight itself, well I think if BB grabs him, then the fight will tend in his favour. Since I believe Kiz is no match for BB in term of physical capabilities, such as endurance and raw power. I also can't see Kizaru escaping BB's gravity. His light "jumps" needs some time as we saw on his fight with Ray, who was able to pull his sword before he could jump, so I believe BB would have enough time to stop that with his vortex (gravitiy).

On the other hand, Kizaru could use the vortex to launch on of his own "speed is weight" kicks. If that should hit BB, then he has no chance in grabbing him. Also there is his laser shots, as I explained above, they do more damage than fire. Kizaru as one of the admiral should have more experience in the NW than Ace has. I mean he wasn't surprised as Ray bypassed his intangibility, that should speak for volume in term of experience.

Just some thought.. :p

Teach

May 15, 2009, 08:00 AM

Blackbeard isn't legendary lol.

i know, its science. its common sense. XD ok enough rambling .
seriously though even though everyone does say bb scarred shanks, everyone also forgets bb age. dude ain't young, and well shanks wasn't a yonkou back then either.

Ace said Blackbeard is twice as old he is. Shanks is the same, they are both in their 40s. Also that's a dull argument Shanks hasn't gotten any stronger for the last 10 years, this was stated by Oda himself. It's stupid to claim only Shanks got stronger over the years and BB didn't.

Shanks wouldn't have warned WB if he didn't think BB dangerous.

mugen

May 15, 2009, 08:17 AM

Teach

May 15, 2009, 08:32 AM

umm bb is not shanks age. just look at them. i mean bb has no teeth. i don't care how much stronger bb has gotten, he's not at yonkou level otherwise wouldn't he then have no need for yami yami fruit? duh?

Shanks was around Luffy's age over 22 years ago when he was shown on Roger's ship and Ace said that BB is twice the old, do the math.

Yonkou lvl? He wants to be the Pirate King, Yonkou is nothing. And I think he's safely on WBs lvl. Given how Shanks said that BB would come to take WBs title soon enough.

goldb

May 15, 2009, 08:34 AM

Blackbeard isn't legendary lol.

Ace said Blackbeard is twice as old he is. Shanks is the same, they are both in their 40s. Also that's a dull argument Shanks hasn't gotten any stronger for the last 10 years, this was stated by Oda himself. It's stupid to claim only Shanks got stronger over the years and BB didn't.

Shanks wouldn't have warned WB if he didn't think BB dangerous.

We don't know exactly how old BB is, all we know is that he's twice as old as Ace which would mean he's in his early 40s or very late 30s. We do know that Shanks is 37.

D: What are the ages of Luffy (http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/Luffy), Zoro (http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/Zoro), Nami (http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/Nami), and Shanks (http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/Shanks)?
O: There were a lot of letters asking about ages. A whole lot. I think it must have been the most frequently asked of all the questions. Well, here's your answer. At present, Luffy is 17, Zoro is 19, and Nami is 18. Because we don't know where Shanks is for the moment, I'll tell you his age from 10 years ago. He was 27 at the time he was hanging out in Luffy's village (http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/Fuschia_Village). As it happens, Usopp is 17 along with Luffy.

Anyways enough with the whole pawange rubbish, if Oda were t make them fight, it wouldn't be a straighforward fight decided by DF abilities, but more about what their strength is without it..and I doubt the Marine Kizaru and Aokiji are Admirals only because of their DF abilities.

We know about BB and the fact he was able to scar Shanks even before having his DF but we don't know much about the any of the Admiral's strengths except a few moves they've shown which is not much to go by.

Can we please stop taking the discussions personally, abusing each other BUT can we also stop whole BB worship too. If someone wants to raise a point please provide a link, proof; something to back up your views. It would be very helpful that wait we limit the unecessary postings like this one:tem

I'm just saying....cos from reading a few people's posts it seems things are going to get pretty heated up very fast.

Razh

May 15, 2009, 09:29 AM

If Oda made this, it would be similar to Ace fight, but this time BB would be serious from the start. With no CIS. Also you made an argument of a person(Ad hominem), I can get you banned for that.

Blackbeard wasn't exactly playing easy for Ace. He may have tried to show him his powers to make him join his crew, but after that, serious fighting went on. And it lasted a while. The part that wasn't shown to us.
About that "numb" stuff. I was speaking generally. If you recognized yourself in that word, that doesn't concern me.
You can get me banned? Please do.

Argumentum ad nauseum. I've said this multiple times. Kizaru will get pulled in, no matter where he wants to go, being lightspeed doesn't help him. Once he is at BBs hands he's a normal person who gets his ass punched.

Blackbeard is not a real black hole. So his pulling range isn't so big so that he could pull Kizaru from a really far distance. Also, the further the center of the gravity pull, the less pulling force applied. If Kizaru were far enough, he could counter the pulling force using his light speed.
And as blackhair pointed out, he can also add the force of the pull to his own speed and fly towards Blackbeard, and kick him really hard.
Use your imagination. No admiral can be beaten like that. Being catched and beaten. They are experienced fighters. They can't just be grabbed and bitchslapped like that. They aren't called the highest military power of Marines for nothing.

tyle over substance fallacy. Big deosn't necessarily mean strong. And no it isn't clear is Kizaru stronger than Ace physically. I think he's weaker, he doesn't need to be strong physically he has a light logia.

In One Piece, big people are usually stronger. You are just guessing that Kizaru's devil fruit is all he has.
I'm stating that he has to be one of the stronger marines. He was dominating Rayleigh in a sword fight. Rayleigh who is a living legend and who is supposed to be 100 times stronger than any of the Supernovas.

No he doesn't, prove your claims about Kizaru being physically strong and BB needing field of darkness to perform Dark Vortex. Prove it or conceed.

You said that Blackbeard can just suck Kizaru in. He can't do it unless he expands his field of darkness. As shown two times already.
Dark Vortex is another thing. It would pull Kizaru, not suck him in.

Also, why wouldn't Kizaru shoot him with a laser while he's being pulled? He would froze from his lack of experience in battle? Ace had enough time to shoot fire lances. What would stop a Kizaru from firing a laser which travels a lot faster than those fire lances? I don't get it.

You misinterpret the story, he proved himself by bringing Ace in. Use your common sense.

I have a common sense. WG is a serious organization which reigns most of the world. Shichibukai are considered one of the three great powers and the world stability greatly depends on them. They are also, in a way, sponsored by WG.
So, do you really think that WG would give such an important position to anyone, if they don't exactly know how strong he/she is or which abilities he/she has?

Your arguments are just full of fallacies, you made multiple fallacies and you make baseless claims which you can't prove.

Not as half as yours and not as half as you.
[hr]

Yonkou lvl? He wants to be the Pirate King, Yonkou is nothing. And I think he's safely on WBs lvl. Given how Shanks said that BB would come to take WBs title soon enough.

Just because you want something doesn't mean that it will happen.
Yonkou want to become Pirate Kings, Luffy wants to become a Pirate King. Will they all become Pirate Kings?
Also, Blackbeard isn't nearly as strong enough to challenge any of the Yonkou. Otherwise he wouldn't need to hide under WG protection or contribute to start a war to get rid of his greatest enemy. Now he's running away from the war. That speaks enough about how strong he is and how ready he feels to become a Pirate King.

Shanks used different words.

Yabe

May 15, 2009, 11:26 AM

I really hate to be seen preachy and become the starter of the stressful atmosphere here but I have got to do this once even if it's still going to be useless in the future anyway.

I'd like to suggest everyone to go speaking like you do towards others, but this time to yourself in front of the mirror, and listen to your own words carefully to see if they annoy you a bit. Say those sarcastic/insulting lines to yourself and see if you'll get pissed a little. That's in case you are not so sure how your posts or some part of them fall into the "insulting/bashing/flaming/fighting" issues or posts that can ever make others feel the need to fight you back. It's actually the strictest rule of this discussion forums we ask you to not doing that and even for your own sake.

I'm not going to warn this for another time:
Please drop the personal take already or you're really going to get yourself the difficult time here.

beastboy

May 15, 2009, 01:01 PM

KIZARU should win, I will post with proofs.
Ace is slower than kizaru (thats obvious) and BB don't duck him with the black hole, maybe thats cause stronger people can run away of it.
Ace could throw fire lance at bb while he was being pushed with kuro uzo (dark vortex) so why can't kiz do the same.

BB do take a hikan that is strong enough to take 3 ships, but that just proofs endurance, but yu know something about lasers just pass through everithing, so they would break a tekkai 10000 times stronger than lucci's, also BB stayed in a very bad state win he was burn in the beginning of the chap, so he isn't that strong.
And we do not saw kiz strengths when he figt rayleagh, and I don't think Ray was losing that bad as some guys say, but dark king would win BB for share cause he is a lot fas ad don't have an DF, and come on, bb is pretty slow, and he needs to stop the attack he is doing to punch some one.

If you need real facts go to the fight of bb against ace!!

ihateyou1

May 15, 2009, 01:39 PM

man rayleigh is one pretty tough guy who could surely own any of these two even if he's old.. he's maybe on par with whitebeard sengokou or garp...
he's not "the dark king" for nothing right... so i think both of those guys are not on par with rayleigh... but anyway i think it would be a tie...
the only factor that could lead to someone's victory maybe is the place where they are fighting..
or maybe if it's day or night...
but most probably it would be a tie...

Onomatopoeia

May 15, 2009, 06:31 PM

^

I h3h3h3'd at this man. BB himself said not even light can escape his gravity. Your argument is invalid ono.
Don't worry I'll be the last man h3h3h3ing

BB said "sparin not even a ray of light" but it's noticeable that they are fighting in the day time and yet I see light everywhere, so it's a clear contradiction, between what is said and what is seen. Still don't understand that.

A normal blackhole would in fact suck up light but thats because its gravitational powers are that strong. BB's gravity powers are like a blackhole's but on a way lower level.

Basiclly what I'm saying is that taking everything a character says to be true isn't always right.

Even though Hiken may not be around Kizaru's firepower, it casually destroyed 6 warships. Not to mention the Entei he somehow survived. Also BB was not hurt at all, he was perfectly fine after all those hits.
We don't even know how powerful Entei is(yes it's Island encompassing but we don't even know what it did), or if it even touched BB.

Also it seemed to me that he was in pain right here (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/441/15/).

Doesn't matter if he knows, he is just gonna pull Kizaru and pummel him.
It sucked LoL.

Honestly I think that if Kizaru kicked BB at the "speed of light" he would probably be sent back a fair amount.

He wins on feats and powerscaling. He's a most likely final villain. Kizaru is not.
What feats would this be? And what powerscaling puts him ahead of Kizaru?

Your right he probablly will be the final villain, but Luffy will likely be the Pirate King, does that mean he can beat or tie WB? I'd think no.

I honestly think that Kizaru spamming kicksplosions would solve everything. Even world hunger.

Tune the flames down.

exdahzy

May 15, 2009, 08:31 PM

everyone knows that light always defeats darkness :(

Razh

May 16, 2009, 03:14 PM

Next time, try to contribute to discussion in some way. :p

It's obvious that Blackbeard is strong. But I remember seeing that someone wrote (not necessarily in this thread) that he almost broke Ace's neck which shows how strong he is.
Well, that fist chop on the neck is more of a testament of Ace's toughness than of Blackbeard's physical strength. There are people who can break your neck like that in real life. And Blackbeard's chop on Ace's neck was strong enough to send him flying. And he didn't break his neck?
Ace's supposed to have iron neck muscles, or Blackbeard doesn't have such a monstrous strength nor is he the strongest character to appear in One Piece.

kkck

May 16, 2009, 04:12 PM

everyone knows that light always defeats darkness :(

BB darkness is not regular shounen darkness though. Darkness is gravity and not even light can escape gravity.

ATM I am inclined to believe kizaru is on the losing side of the match; BB is just to much of a perfect counter for him.

Razh

May 16, 2009, 04:34 PM

BB darkness is not regular shounen darkness though. Darkness is gravity and not even light can escape gravity.

ATM I am inclined to believe kizaru is on the losing side of the match; BB is just to much of a perfect counter for him.

Light doesn't need to escape the gravity. In this case, light can fly towards the gravity and kick it in the belly. Light can shoot lasers at gravity. Light can spam numerous kicksplosions, as Onomatopeia wonderfully put it, at gravity.
And who knows what else light can do, since light never actually went all out in the time it was shown.

Perfect counter? Blackbeard's devil fruit is a counter for every devil fruit. Kizaru's doesn't stand out in any way. If anything, Kizaru is the perfect counter for Blackbeard.
If I had to pick one devil fruit which had the most chance of effectively countering Blackbeard, I'd pick light fruit.

braindamage351

May 16, 2009, 04:37 PM

Blackbeard is a perfect counter to everyone. That's the whole point. The fight turns out the same against Kizaru as it did against Ace, except it's a light sword instead of a fire lance. People try to bring up Kizaru and Enel's lightspeed movement, but once it's caught in the darkness that type of speed becomes irrelevant, because they can only get sucked in.

Blackbeard can suck up any attack if he's paying attention. Guns, SWORDS, Kuma shockwaves, lasers, lightning bolts, and Ace's fire attacks (yes, he did absorb one of those after the neck shot) are all easily sucked up. The problem is that he has to be paying attention (if he screws up he gets hit, which logia users seem to do almost constantly), and when he's sucking up a person he can't suck up their attacks at the same time.

In other words, the entire battle takes place while the opponent is being sucked in and when they're in punching range without their DF ability/weapon. The thing is, people get sucked in so fast it nearly breaks their neck from whiplash, so only the strongest guys can get one attack in. Even Ace, who was physically able to rapestomp Luffy despite his devil fruit, was basically defenseless once it got to close range, and was nearly KOd by the second hit.

Onomatopoeia

May 16, 2009, 05:15 PM

kkck

May 16, 2009, 07:16 PM

You have proof that BB has the graviational power strong enough to catch someone moving at "Lightspeed"?

Or that he could survive a spamming of kicksplosions(assuming he can be pulled in)?

And the fact that in all likelyhood Kizaru's punches/kicks are pretty hard.

All BB has to do to win is suck in kirarus attacks and body like he did with the town. I don't know how many Gs BB can produced but I doubt he will actually have trouble sucking kizaru in.

Razh

May 17, 2009, 09:04 AM

All BB has to do to win is suck in kirarus attacks and body like he did with the town. I don't know how many Gs BB can produced but I doubt he will actually have trouble sucking kizaru in.

And all Kizaru has to do is spam lasers at Blackbeard while's he expanding his darkness to suck him in.
Your theory would work if Kizaru were in a wheelchair and had reflexes of a dead horse.

kkck

May 17, 2009, 11:15 AM

And all Kizaru has to do is spam lasers at Blackbeard while's he expanding his darkness to suck him in.
Your theory would work if Kizaru were in a wheelchair and had reflexes of a dead horse.

Those very lasers could be sucked by darkness leaving BB unscathed. For kizaru to win he would have to avoid gravity and we all very well know that is impossible.

Razh

May 17, 2009, 11:24 AM

That darkness sucks only the objects that are standing right on it. Take Ace. He was surrounded by darkness but he still wasn't sucked in.
Also, did you not read the chapters where Kizaru was displaying his basic abilities? Which takes longer? Blackbeard activating his black hole or Kizaru pointing a finger and shooting a laser which travels with the speed of light.
Unless Blackbeard can activate his black hole with the speed of light, he can't suck in the laser. He couldn't even suck in the flames which move a lot slower than light.

If you're going to try to prove that Blackbeard is stronger, at least try to bring something new into discussion. I'm getting tired with "light can't escape gravity" argument. I already replied on that, and I sure as hell don't want to write the same stuff over and over in a thread like this.

Onomatopoeia

May 17, 2009, 11:35 AM

Those very lasers could be sucked by darkness leaving BB unscathed. For kizaru to win he would have to avoid gravity and we all very well know that is impossible.
Yeah except Ace fired off Fire Lances while being sucked in and yet BB wasn't able to used his gravity powers to suck that in. If he can't suck in both at the same time then what leads you to believe that the same won't happen with Kizaru and his lasers.

Also what Razh said. Honestly though this thread has become unbelievably boring. It's basicly people reposting what everyone else has said but with a variation in words. So unless something new happens or someone posts something interesting I"m out.

bittman

May 17, 2009, 08:38 PM

Wow, Yabe was right, you guys are getting pretty heated about this.

Here's something new for the discussion:
Latest chapter reiterated that Blackbeard can store things in darkness and, in fact when compared to his village-sucking display for Ace, he seems to have become quite speedy at doing this.

So, how do you think the storage and liberation will assist Blackbeard against Kizaru? Honestly speaking, Blackbeard could possibly store enough debris to shield himself, can turn it into a ranged attack and has a little bit of a monopoly over ground-based conflict. Against Kizaru, all of these points are minor and will probably serve no use against him if Kizaru laser-ranges, logia-tanks and light-speed moves.

Still, it's another piece to the equation.

dtyk

May 17, 2009, 08:56 PM

I would have to support Kizaru thus far.

Playing range attacks would work wonders due to his light fruit.

Coming close? Zapping out before Teach can touch him.

BlackHair

May 17, 2009, 09:12 PM

After reading some posts and giving some thoughts on it, I believe I will support my old vote again -> BB

BB is darkness, Kizaru is light. The one can use gravity the other speed. Going by that, they don't balance each other. It is not like in myths, legends or in other crappy fairytales, where darkness is bad and supposed to be losing. Not saying that some1 said that, I just believe some ppl are having this concept in their mind while deciding on their vote (I could be wrong as well).

Anyway the reason I chose BB is cause I believe Kiz is not fast enough to escape the gravity. Now plz stop saying he is light and the fastest on earth. Before he can use his light speed he has to jump into his logia state (Yata No Kagami (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/510/04/)). Without performing that skill, he can't use his light speed. He would be just a regular yet highly trained guy. Kuma or Enel with their teleportation skills are way faster and are able to bypass the gravity by orbing behind BB's back, but Kizaru can't do that. Before Kizaru could use his light-speed, Rayleigh was able to stop him (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/512/07/). Seeing that I'm sure BB could stop him with his gravity. Even if he should manage to jump into Yata no Kagami, gravity would probably disturb the light path, so Kiz wouldn't land where he wanted to and if it is strong enough he would be even able to suck Kiz in (I doubt it though).

About his laser shots, I rate BB's physical endurance high enough to withstand 2-3 shots. Should be enough time to pull Kiz with his gravity and to overthrow him with his raw power.

Im not saying the fight will be one-sided as Ace's, but I also can't see him losing. Just a side note, Im not using "future antagonist" as a argument, Imo sth like future plot relevance is irrelevant, since character have to grow and Im not a BB fan xD Also I don't see Kiz firing constant laser shots from distance, simply cause he is a close ranch fighter, as a swordsman.

btw darkness only sucks objects in while gravity is able to pull. Theses are two different skills of BB. Whether he can use both at the same time was shown yet.

Onomatopoeia

May 18, 2009, 02:43 PM

Before Kizaru could use his light-speed, Rayleigh was able to stop him (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/512/07/). Seeing that I'm sure BB could stop him with his gravity. Even if he should manage to jump into Yata no Kagami, gravity would probably disturb the light path, so Kiz wouldn't land where he wanted to and if it is strong enough he would be even able to suck Kiz in (I doubt it though).
Assuming the distance between the two are equal as in around the same distance between BB and Ace then I see little reason to assume that Kizaru couldn't get into Yata no Kagami.

About his laser shots, I rate BB's physical endurance high enough to withstand 2-3 shots. Should be enough time to pull Kiz with his gravity and to overthrow him with his raw power.
Actually in a fight between which one has more force in their physical attacks Kizaru wins pretty easily. BB has raw strength but Kizaru easily wins because he can "kick at the speed of light".

Just to give an example here's a side by side comparison.

Kizaru Kicking and its effects (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/509/14/) vs BB punching and its effects (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/441/13/)

It should be pretty clear which one is more impressive of the two. And yes I realize this is a kick vs a punch but since I can't see BB kicking anyone with his stubby legs(looool) I have to go with it. And since Kizaru hasn't showcased a punch yet either...

BlackHair

May 18, 2009, 02:57 PM

Actually in a fight between which one has more force in their physical attacks Kizaru wins pretty easily. BB has raw strength but Kizaru easily wins because he can "kick at the speed of light".No u got me wrong. I never meant to say that BB's physical power surpasses Kiz's "Speed kicks", which is absurd. I meant that if BB is able to grab Kiz, with help of his gravity than the fight will tend to his favour. I can't imagine Kiz to have more raw (without DF) physical power than BB.

If BB is able to grab him, he would win. On the other hand if Kiz is able to use Yata no Kagami, he would win. Since Im seeing more chance in gravity than Yata no Kagami (reasons stated a post above) Im choosing BB. I think I will leave it for now and waiting for new material from Oda.

Razh

May 18, 2009, 04:51 PM

I think it's too early to dismiss Kizaru's base strenght an fighting ability. I mean, he's an Admiral, and not to be taken lightly. For all we know, he could be able to use Soru, just like Garp. I'm not saying he can, but since he's numbered into marine's greatest fighting potential or whatever, he must be really strong as well. Stronger than Ace anyway. Guy that tall may be a weakling in One Piece, if he is a comic relief, like Duval, but if he is an Admiral, it's totally different.

Also, about Blackbeard being able to receive 2-3 lasers and keep fighting effectively. Really dubious. Sure, he could probably survive 2-3, but fight an Admiral with 3 bleeding holes? Well, maybe he could. If they were well placed. Then again, he could fall from 1 laser.
But I'm afraid that Kizaru isn't limited to shooting thin lasers from his fingers. Afraid because he seemed to be taking Supernovas like some kids.
We can hardly say that he went all out. So, what if he were, and it's a high possibility, able to shoot bigger lasers. Like the size of Kamehameha or even bigger?
And who knows what else.

I'm not saying Blackbeard doesn't have more than he showed, it can't be excluded, but I think Kizaru's fruit has a higher attacking potential.

BlackHair

May 18, 2009, 05:15 PM

I get what u are saying, it the same idea I posted weeks ago: that Admiras are able to use haki. However we have no basics for that. He didn't displayed any Rokushiki, physical capabilities or Haki. So we can't go and assume. Im aware that u know that, just wanted to point it out.

About Kiz's fight with the supernova and BB's fight with Ace (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1314869&postcount=46). Neither of them went all out, especially Kiz and I never said anything else. We still haven't seen their full extent. But even if Kiz is an Admiral, I believe in physical power (without DF) is BB superior. Simply cause his character is based on brutal strength, thanks to his devil fruit.

beastboy

May 18, 2009, 06:04 PM

OMG, Ace was able to hurt bb, so if insted of little arrows of fire it was something like this (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/507/16/) I'm share BB wasn't just go into real pain, he would really die.
You're overpowering BB too much, he was fighting SUPER NOVAS as if they were kids, and he was joking, he wasn't tired at all, and when he saw SILVERS RAYLEIGH he just sayed "hu, I was thinking this would be a relaxing trip" This isn't something that BB would say when we talk about Rayleigh, and yes Rayleigh cut is face ut he wasn't all out , he was just fighting some SN, and when ray stopped him he just started to be A BIT searious.
And BB WAS all out, he was in pain plenty of times, and he just winned cause of ace's bad choice in putt all in one attack, cause BB just absorbed that attack and Ace together if he just keep firing does arrows would give a little more trouble to bb.

With all this sucking thing I'm starting to think that BB really sucks.

BlackHair

May 18, 2009, 06:25 PM

No, BB didn't went all out. Despite BB's screaming of fire, the fight was one-sided. Everything is about damage lines, I explained it on my previous post (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1314869&postcount=46). Below I cut out the parts which describes damage lines.

I don't understand why ppl think BB went all out on Ace, that he was showing us all. Ace was clearly not strong enough, to force BB to go all out. It is about Damage lines. Those are seen if a character is losing or is getting weaker in some way. Those are defined by blood, dirt, pain etc. They can appear directly on the body of the character or just on clothes/equipment they are wearing.

Before the fight: Ace (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/440/12/) || BB (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/434/19/)
After the fight : Ace || BB (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/441/19/)

Both look clean and unwounded before their fights. Right before the end, Ace is bleeding, panting and is down on the ground. Now look at BB, he is perfectly fine: not panting, no injuries and no dirt. Even though he got hit by fire. IMO Oda is clearly emphasizing that BB won the fight easily. He was forced to use his darkness ability, you can give Ace that much credit, but not more. BB didn't went all out, otherwise he would have been exhaust. So basically he wasn't showing us all of his capabilities. Which would be stupid on Oda, if he is already showing all of BB's ability, a character who will probably play major role later.

Another example on Damage Lines:
Before the fight Ray||Kiz (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/512/02-03/)
After the fight Ray||Kiz (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/513/11/)

If you compare Ray's coat before and after the fight, you can see that there is dirt on. Now if we compare that with Kizaru, we can safely assume, if Kiz and Ray would have fought without interpretation, Kiz mostly likely would have won. Since the dirt on Ray emphasise that he is getting weaker, means he is losing. But over all that fight was quite evenly, unlike that of BB vs Ace.
Also why do u compare Kiz and BB strenght based on those opponents? I mean Ace is clearly on a complete different lvl than the supernova. Yes he Kiz played with the SN like kids, but now how exactly makes this him stronger than BB?

beastboy

May 18, 2009, 06:48 PM

well just compare, BB screamed with does fire lances, kiz destroyed a mangrove with a kick just to SCARE 2 fooders, he win agains 4 captains joking.
I'm share BB wouldn't win so easy.
AND about the line WTF, BB was hurt in the stomach area, that was a FACE close up, so of corse that ace tha was chopped and punched in the face has the face in a worse state--'.
And about the coat WTF, i'm in worse state than a person with cancer cause I fall in oil pull -_-'.
And again how do you think that BB would be if he was hit by that gigantic explosion???
[hr]
And ace is not panting, he is doing a sexy face to the fan grils

BlackHair

May 18, 2009, 07:37 PM

well just compare, BB screamed with does fire lances, kiz destroyed a mangrove with a kick just to SCARE 2 fooders, he win agains 4 captains joking.
About the scream part, maybe it was just to satisfy Ace fans,.. idk but one thing for sure: at the end of the fight there is no sign of battle on BB's body. Thus it is emphasized that he won the fight easily. Also again, beating 4 SN captains facilely doesn't rank you automatically above BB.

I'm share BB wouldn't win so easy.
I NEVER said he would win easily. U should read some of my posts above (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1352864&postcount=153), which are btw below ur post. I gave them both a 50:50 chance, while I did rank BB a bit better. That's all.

AND about the line WTF, BB was hurt in the stomach area, that was a FACE close up, so of corse that ace tha was chopped and punched in the face has the face in a worse state--'. And about the coat WTF, i'm in worse state than a person with cancer cause I fall in oil pull -_-'.
I think u didn't rly get my dmageline post. Plz reread the Luffy vs Magallan fight. Maga was never hit at the face, yet after the fight he has bruises on it (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/535/12/). If u want to dispute the damageline thing, then do it with actual facts.

And again how do you think that BB would be if he was hit by that gigantic explosion???
BB took Ace's hiken so Im sure he can take one of those shots. Watch these videos:

Ace Alabasta (1:00) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngXDSARoIRs)
Ace vs BB (4:06) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nNEaxsbmJs&feature=related)

And read this post if u have time: Damage shown on material things wouldn't be the same on character! (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1316106&postcount=72)

And ace is not panting, he is doing a sexy face to the fan grilsAre u one of them? Just kidding.

Im not sure if u saw the questions which I posted above. Plz answer them if u have time. Also I noticed that we are going with BB vs Ace too much offtopic. So I will stop posting regarding that. If there should be anything let's continue it on: Blackbeard's Strength (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48058)

Edit: I just read ur response, I mostly disagree. Just to let u know I won't response in this thread anymore. I don't wane ruin this thread. Also I was talking about Magallan's bruises on his face not Luffy's. About the size of the hiken, plz read the last part of this post (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1316106&postcount=72).

Onomatopoeia

May 18, 2009, 09:29 PM

No u got me wrong. I never meant to say that BB's physical power surpasses Kiz's "Speed kicks", which is absurd. I meant that if BB is able to grab Kiz, with help of his gravity than the fight will tend to his favour. I can't imagine Kiz to have more raw (without DF) physical power than BB.

If BB is able to grab him, he would win. On the other hand if Kiz is able to use Yata no Kagami, he would win. Since Im seeing more chance in gravity than Yata no Kagami (reasons stated a post above) Im choosing BB. I think I will leave it for now and waiting for new material from Oda.
Ah okay I misunderstood you.

I wouldn't be so sure, yes he got Ace but he always punched him/and or hit him in some way, this would send him flying. I'd imagine something similar to that would happen against Kizaru.

Now then assuming that Kizaru could pull something similar to Ace then perhaps if he was pulled in then he could prepare BB with one of his "Lightspeed" Kicks.

This might send him flying/stun him.

Lemonadez

May 19, 2009, 02:41 AM

I'm in for a tie.

-Kizaru fires loads of his beams and his "ka-boom" kick in lightspeed. no time to react from BB and he's down for taking in too much damage.
-one black hole attack from BB and mega-pound attack on DF Power-less Kizaru, game over for him

sounds too simple :headscratch

seriously, I think both of them have their own opportunities against each other. physics-wise, yeah, even light can't escape from blackhole. but even that, Kizaru can still manage to do some lightspeed attacks to BB while being pulled. with that being said, I think either both will go down together, or one will win, with the matter who gets to execute their ultimate attack first

lol, You saw BLackbeard did to Ace and he was still alive. We havent seen Kizaru full power like Blackbeard did against Ace.

So far Kizaru would win. due to fact he can shoot laser and able to penetrate through Blackbeard and for Blackbeard he cant suck Kizaru he had to see and point out his hand to kizaru in order to suck/touch him lol. Blackbeard cant move that fast.
[hr]

BB darkness is not regular shounen darkness though. Darkness is gravity and not even light can escape gravity.

ATM I am inclined to believe kizaru is on the losing side of the match; BB is just to much of a perfect counter for him.

lol Darkness is Gravity? So shadow is "darkness" so it should have power of gravity?

lol, if BB was gravity in the first place. He could just make ace float all the time :P and turn the entire cloud into a complete darkness and put a black hole like in Yo Gi Oh... He should not even sail on the boat if his power is Gravity.

BB is just darkness with Blackhole (he mention "Gravity" because it "suck" like vacuum) but its not the same power as gravity. if his Gravity Ace should be floating and everything should be floating its only a darkness (blackhole) his gravity power. its similar to kakashi mangekyo.

If you said DF abilities darkness is gravity, he should be the same as Alex in Marvel or Geo-Force who posses the power of gravity.

beastboy

May 19, 2009, 12:50 PM

http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/441/18/ if we are talking about damage lines look at BB, he is full of damage lines in the place were he was hit.
And Luffy isn't damaged in the face, the poison that was all over is body just end up covering is face, you can see in the page before that that is face is perfectly fine...

And if damage showed in materials isn't equal to the one showed in peoples I'm share that the angel guy that could stand against a pacifista, and was only hited by a laser, during the fight was sent flying, and ou won't say that BB is stronger, cause Ace is a lot smaller and less havier than a passifista "Oh wait a pacifista is a thing not a person damn" And in the mangá I don't see that hiken, so I'm not counting it in, and it was A LOT smaller than the one in ALABASTA.
And if we are making a match with BB so it isn't off-topic to discuss is strength.
[hr]
OkOk, was shwned in the mangá, but you know bats are made of wood, and wood is inflamavel, and BB was in pain after that, and I think kizaru's laser is a bigger threat than hiken.
[hr]
ANd about zoro surviving, zoro is a monster when its about endurance I think is the bigger of the world, he was in pretty bad state and received ALL luffy's pain, and he didn't died.
But after that laser he couldn't move so BB was in trouble if he was it.
[hr]
OK I get it, you're trying to say that if BB catch kiz in is and he would kill kiz, and thats right but BB isn't fast AT ALL, and the gravity of the kurouzo would increase the speed of light, so if kiz just jumped at speed of light he would gain speed, and even without a DF, speed is weight, resulting in a broke and for BB, and this is if he couldn't kick a laser right in is hand, well ATM BB isn't as strong as Kiz, Wait, i'm here I'm putting a thread like this:
BB vs Gol D roger vs WB whou woul win............ --', I'm share BB would get some votes........

JUst smething else

Ray__________Gol D Roger
Zoro_________Luffy

Gol D roger - A minim lake of power - the power o the time (he is older hahaha) = old rayleagh

old rayleagh= or < kiz

so BB almost >old roger ????

I DON'T THINK SO.

ps: Now you wil say, you guys are overpowering roger to much, he is of the old league even buggy would win against him -______________________-''

kkck

May 19, 2009, 01:06 PM

lol Darkness is Gravity? So shadow is "darkness" so it should have power of gravity?

lol, if BB was gravity in the first place. He could just make ace float all the time :P and turn the entire cloud into a complete darkness and put a black hole like in Yo Gi Oh... He should not even sail on the boat if his power is Gravity.

BB is just darkness with Blackhole (he mention "Gravity" because it "suck" like vacuum) but its not the same power as gravity. if his Gravity Ace should be floating and everything should be floating its only a darkness (blackhole) his gravity power. its similar to kakashi mangekyo.

If you said DF abilities darkness is gravity, he should be the same as Alex in Marvel or Geo-Force who posses the power of gravity.

I see no particular reason to believe your word over BB. Also, what I wrote about BB power was actually a quote, not my invention. Not to mention BB did do most of the stuff you mention in one way or another.
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/441/05/

Razh

May 19, 2009, 01:10 PM

Blackbeard doesn't control gravity. He becomes can only pull objects towards himself and his extended parts, like that darkness on the floor.

That's what Lemonade wanted to say.

Also, Blackbeard said it too. You can see it on the very link you posted.

beastboy

May 19, 2009, 01:12 PM

@LEMONADEZ
so far BB as only the SAME POWER as mr valentines, he can increase the mass of something, including the air at EXORBITANT values the mass is so intence that everything is absorved by it EVEN LIGHT, and light can't escape, other wise the black hole wouldn't be black...
But about light he is talking about normal light, the light that only pints at one direction and refracts or reflects in the objects, you know, but light with senses that can turn whenever he wants is a little dificult to catch.
And again, if ACE, captain of the 2nd of WB pirats was able to throw lances at him, and the man that surpasses the 1ST MATE of GOL D ROGER isn't able to throw some lasers, and I don't mean 4 lasers i MEAN 100000 LASERS, he can do everything at speed of light so he can move is arms at speed of light and do a gatling gun of lasers, light light no gatling guuun and BB to stop ace of kicking him, or do something needed to close is and, and he couldn't break is neck, something that a normal people can, even I can break your neck.
So if he didn't broke ace's neck he wouldn't break kizaru's neck.
And if it isn't 1HKO he will be death cause kiz would know how to scape of that attack...

BlackHair

May 19, 2009, 01:23 PM

BB is darkness. He can use the power of gravity to pull objects towards him while he can also use the darkness to devour things. So easy and simple and already repeated like 5 times.

Ray now is older and weaker than his prime. He is retired thus he is out of practice. Yet he could display a equal swordplay with an Admiral. Now how does this make Kiz stronger than BB? I fail to see a logic behind this. It's not like BB went all out on Ace.

This might send him flying/stun him.
Yea' I know what you are talking about. In the end there are too many possibilities to determine a 100% winner. I will stay with BB until I'm convinced otherwise and plz don't misunderstand, it will a close battle imo.

beastboy

May 19, 2009, 02:52 PM

rayleagh is old and isn't fighting all days, but do you think that if zoro, shanks or mihawk stay out of the fights for 22 years would be weaklings, do ou believe that roger would be a weakling, I don't see only one impressive thing that BB has made to put him in admiral level, almost every shichi would win against ace, well maybe croc and moria would lose but the others would win for sure, Ace isn't that far from super nova power, if kiz knew a way to hit him, the fight wouldn't last 1 min, BB could not be at is perfect power, but he was using for sure more power than mihawk did when almost killed zoro and that kizaru that winned agains 4 supernovas, and I will tell you why wasn't kiz using a tiny bit of is power, 1st he entered in the island, and kicked, and destroyed a mangrove, themarines adviced him to don't destroy mangroves, and than he suppressed is power to a point that he wouldn't destroy the trees, and that why he didn't destroy any other tree in the archipelago.

And you're basing you're answer in previews you're saying "BB don't use all is power so he can bit kiz" but for what we see of both kiz was a lot more impressive.

BlackHair

May 19, 2009, 03:19 PM

rayleagh is old and isn't fighting all days, but do you think that if zoro, shanks or mihawk stay out of the fights for 22 years would be weaklings, do ou believe that roger would be a weaklingWeak? NO. Weaker over 22 years? YES!

BB defeated Ace (a logia df user), Kiz defeated 4 SN captain, not one of them displayed Ace's fighting strenght. Beside how can u rate Kiz above BB based on that? I don't understand. The SN and Ace are different ppl with different fighting strenght.

Instead of power-scaling Kiz and BB on their past opponents, how about starting to analyse their powers? The one is darkness who is able to use the gravity to pull and the other is light who can travel at the speed of light.

I will leave it now for sure, was my final post.

beastboy

May 19, 2009, 04:28 PM

well thats what I'm trying to say I will make a mini fic:

BB: YOU STOLE MY COOCKIES
Kizaru: Did I?? I thinked that the coockies were my, anyway, I ate them already.
BB: YOU WILL PAY KURO UZOO.
Kizaru is pulled at great speed to kizarus and but he shoots a laser AT SPEED OF LIGHT that pierces is and. BB stops kuro uzo cause of the pain in the hand and is kicked at speed of light.
[hr]
END

bittman

May 20, 2009, 01:07 AM

Sorry, I just wanted to say this with all the "KIZARU DOES ***************** AT THE SPEED OF LIGHT!"

He may be a light light man who can move at the speed of light, but his brain and nervous system is only human. To shoot a laser, he must move his hand. To strike with a sword he must move his arms. To kick he must move his body.

Even if the end of the action is at lightspeed, it must start somewhere and go through a set of actions to be called anything. If Kizaru could "kick at the speed of light", then a number of impossible things would need to happen along the way, the least of which would not be Kizaru's brain travelling beyond light speed.

Evidence?
When he does the mirror beam light speed movement, he stops at the end to regain his bearings and then attacks and a visible speed.
When he fires his laser, we see him taking aim with his fingers.
Etcetera.

So in short, there are quite a few reasons Kizaru cannot do things at light. Reasons include, but are no way near limited to:
* Eyesight
* Awareness
* Balance
* Brain Function / Nervous System
* Thought process
* Hearing / Sound feedback

Basically, it comes down to the fact he's human. So I wrote a lot and that about sums it up...

Razh

May 20, 2009, 07:27 AM

With all those weaknesses (which are given to every human) he is still faster than Blackbeard, has bigger combat range than Blackbeard and has a greater attacking potential than Blackbeard.

bittman

May 20, 2009, 08:11 AM

Of course, in my post I didn't say "And thus he's weaker than Blackbeard". I'm just discounting wild theories about how Kizaru can actually act the same way you discount any hypotheses about Blackbeard's power.

And I though I agree that Kizaru has greater "attacking potential" (assuming we're talking number of techniques) and "faster", but the range thing is dubious.

beastboy

May 20, 2009, 08:23 AM

With all those weaknesses (which are given to every human) he is still faster than Blackbeard, has bigger combat range than Blackbeard and has a greater attacking potential than Blackbeard.

I completely agree with you.

But bittman I thin that is nervous system speed at the speed of light cause it is in every human been haha (well now I forgot if is at speed of light or not, but is almost speed of light anyway, cause the information travels by electric impulses, that go through your nerves until the place where the information is needed.)

* Eyesight
* Awareness
* Thought process
* Hearing / Sound feedback
I agree with those, but even if he is slower than the light he is steel faster than BB in those things..
[hr]
Range is the same, they're both lng/mid/short range fighters, but I think BB wins in that, but is attack that cover more space takes a lot of time to do, and a good preperation, I think he would be pierced before he could do that.

And I know this is a PRESUMPTION(is that how ou say right???) but I think kiz stops before yata no kagami for the same reason that luffy stops in gear 2 after the stretch and thats cause it wouldn't be fun to see a batle were we don't see nothing, just a yellow light all over the place pwning everyone, but this isn't based on facts so don't mind arguing it.
[hr]
But if he travels at real light speed he could reach raftel in 5 sec......

Razh

May 20, 2009, 11:43 AM

And I though I agree that Kizaru has greater "attacking potential" (assuming we're talking number of techniques) and "faster", but the range thing is dubious.

Blackbeard as until now, doesn't have any ranged attacks. Sure, he can expand the darkness and drag in everything above it, but that's not really a direct attack.
Kizaru can fire lasers from a pretty large distance. As seen when he destroyed mangrove tree. I couldn't really say that range thing is dubious.

And yeah, I'm getting bored with these lasers too. I know, it's unfair. But the guy can fire them pretty quickly and pretty far.

bittman

May 20, 2009, 06:51 PM

Well my point on range would be:
A) Blackbeard's ground creeping thing may not be a "direct attack", but if he sucked in an entire town it has range. Though it is slow, I doubt he uses this against difficult opponents.
B) We have no way to actually tell the range of Dark Vortex. Ace was probably less than 50 metres from Blackbeard when this technique was used, but what it's range is, is unclear.

Also, on the lasers I was just thinking, and did Kizaru ever display the ability to shoot more than one at a time? Then again, he probably never needed to...

Anyway, yeah Kizaru probably does have better range, but Blackbeard isn't the type that would range things at a distance, so it's hard to tell how effective his attacks are at range, hence the "dubious" word I used.

Lemonadez

May 25, 2009, 02:14 PM

Yes that what im trying to say, his darkness isn't power of gravity., he just absorb (suck through hole like a vacuum cleaner). otherwise if you saw the darkness undearneath ace. Everything should be suck already and floating.

Ace Lost to BB, clearly because Ace isn't PHYSICALLY strong as Luffy in terms on Strength not "Devil Fruit". He hasn't taken any "Real punch" since he became a member of whitebeard crew. Isn't that too long. like BB said to ace, he's weak in terms of physical. but his pwnage using DF abilities.

Razh

June 02, 2009, 04:07 PM

So, since the weekend is over, I can discuss about it.

Does anyone have a different opinion about this match up now that we have seen how Luffy managed to damage Blackbeard?

Kizaru is a lot stronger than Luffy, that we can all agree upon.

Onomatopoeia

June 02, 2009, 05:28 PM

BlackHair

June 02, 2009, 05:33 PM

Onomatopoeia

June 02, 2009, 05:36 PM

Im still with BB. His bleeding from Luffy's punch does not tell that he is weak, but rather that Luffy has the necessary strengths to be on high tier level. If he would be able to bypass logia intangibility (haki) then I already see him defeating Admirals.

I don't see a reason to downplay BB based on Luffy's punch. Also I repeat, I never said Kiz vs BB would be a easy win for BB.

That may be but we would both put Kizaru's kicks and laser kicks quite a bit above what Luffy showed this chapter.

If BB can be hurt by Luffy's punches imagine Kizaru's.

BlackHair

June 02, 2009, 05:44 PM

I get your point and I also have nothing to argue about. All my reasons are stated in previous posts and Im still with them. Until I see manga footage, which can me retune.

Benjamin Kaito

June 02, 2009, 08:00 PM

Well, in a classic, light vs darkness combat ill go with Kizaru, basing it on what I've seen so far.

Blackbeard is vulnerable to physical attacks so, Kizaru's attacks always hit. Same happens with him if Teach is able to touch him with his hand. However, Kizaru can move at speed of light and use ranged attacks that go at the same speed. Because of that, i think even with all that resistance of his, Blackbeard would eventually fall under Kizaru.

keencole

June 02, 2009, 08:24 PM

Benjamin Kaito

June 02, 2009, 08:41 PM

You just wait for the show! BB is quoted saying not even light can escape his darkness!

Oh, i will ^^

BlackHair

June 02, 2009, 08:45 PM

Yeah but he probably didn't mean light as in Kizaru's fruit power. I have two possible explanation for that comment of BB:

1. Objects are only visible if light falls on them. Through that our eye is able to see the different objects (physics). Now if the objects are covered with darkness, light won't fall on them, thus we can't see them. Example: Look at the ground inn Panel 1 (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/441/06-07/). The ground is not visible and that's what Im talking about.

2. Inside the darkness of BB, there is no light. Those ppl who were sucked in, saw nothing but darkness.

Aynway, to vote for BB on simply based on his words is poor ^^

Yami_Yami_No_Mi_89

June 02, 2009, 11:19 PM

do you remember the last attack on banaro island??? blackbeard uses an enormous amount of darkness that was comparable with the ultimate ace's attack... we don't know what was that but i think his power is unbelievably strong... i think he can take out every character we've already seen in one piece he hasn't got only kuoruzu, he has got a crazy power... be able to nullify logia intangibility is only one (and a big one) thing he can do... but as i said we don't know almost nothing about what he can do with his DF... and he's insanely strong in pure strenght matches... he can take a lot of damage... how he can be able to survive the hydra will be interesting but we know he ll survive...

Trancesetter

June 03, 2009, 01:12 AM

I'm voting for Kizaru, even though Oda-sensei would most likely make Blackbeard wins (if there's going to be a fight between them, and if he's going to be the antithesis of Luffy, he'll have to win :p)

keencole

June 03, 2009, 03:49 AM

A lil BB trivia. BB says in his fight with ace that I can't dodge attacks the way other logia users can,... "My body absorbs much more pain than the average human" does he mean his body absorbs much more pain because of the DF of darkness absorbs most of it or does he mean he alone can take more damage than most people and that why he was chosen by this ability..I know most people think its the latter idea but I subscribe to the first. Think about what blackbeards words are directly after he gets a fullbody hydra bath..He says "oh the Pain" I have a feeling this the way we interpret that quote changes alot of peoples idea of just how much of a main character Oda has in store for BB

Razh

June 03, 2009, 05:42 AM

Both Luffy and Ace managed to hit Blackbeard without much trouble. Kizaru is incomparably faster and his attacks are more destructive. Look what happened to those Supernova. Unless Blackbeard's reflexes are a LOT higher than theirs, he won't be able to dodge a kick or a laser. It's that simple. We've seen how easy it is to catch him off guard. He's much too reckless.

Maybe he would be more serious against an admiral, but his reflexes or speed wouldn't be any better.

And "light can't escape darkness" argument again?
Did you at least reads the previous pages?

Rotten The Wizard

June 03, 2009, 07:06 AM

wow, are you serious?
People still put BB on Admiral level?

you people fail to grasp the concept of BB and Luffy being mortal enemies and how similar they are but different in a lot of ways. Like Luffy BB is building up a crew and trying to get stronger in search of OP.

If BB were already at Admiral level then ODA would've failed terribly.

This isn't even a discussion.

BlackHair

June 03, 2009, 10:22 AM

What's so wrong with putting BB on Admial/Yonko/last tier fighting level? Just cause Luffy managed to hit him bleeding?

Also again just cause Kizaru is light, doesn't mean he is fast. Otherwise he would have ripped Rayleigh like nothing. Yet he didn't. That just means he needs time to accelerate into light speed (Yata no Kagami).

Yes BB is like a mountaian, he takes everything and he didn't displayed any speed or agility so far. Yet he displayed tremendous physical endurance. He wouldn't go down by simply a laser shot..

kkck

June 03, 2009, 10:58 AM

I doubt we have seen BB going all out yet.... He somehow managed to wound shanks without a DF, there has to be a reason for that....

Razh

June 03, 2009, 11:09 AM

Yet he displayed tremendous physical endurance. He wouldn't go down by simply a laser shot..

Maybe, if it doesn't hit any vitals. And as long as Kizaru stops shooting them or waits for Blackbeard to recover. We've been over this before.
Kizaru managed to incapacitate 3 Supernovas in a few seconds. Any one opponent would have a tough time with him.

Battle against Rayleigh was something different. We don't know if Rayleigh has a devil fruit or if he used some other means to block Kizaru's abilities somewhat. We don't know how strong or fast Rayleigh is, but seeing Garp and seeing how Rayleigh seems to fully control Haki, I'd say he's a lot stronger than those Supernovas, just like Shakky said. And after all, Kizaru could have been eager to test his swordsman skills against a legend.
[hr]

I doubt we have seen BB going all out yet.... He somehow managed to wound shanks without a DF, there has to be a reason for that....

He's strong, that's the reason. Shanks is only a human. And it happened when they were both rookies probably. Shanks didn't even have his flag yet at the time.
We only know that they fought and that they were equal. We only know that Shanks got the scars, but we don't know who won.

BlackHair

June 03, 2009, 11:30 AM

Maybe, if it doesn't hit any vitals. And as long as Kizaru stops shooting them or waits for Blackbeard to recover. Have we ever seen anyone hitting a vital in one piece? I can't recall anyone, plz correct me if Im wrong here. Anyway, I do expect BB to move or attack while being hit by a laser. Similar to how he still attacked with Ace's fire lance in his chest.

Kizaru managed to incapacitate 3 Supernovas in a few seconds. Any one opponent would have a tough time with him. I had this with beastboy a page before. Beating the SN doesn't put you above BB. Also we can't say BB would have trouble beating those. My point is, beating the SN is no argument, same with beating Ace or fighting equal to Rayleigh.

Battle against Rayleigh was something different. We don't know if Rayleigh has a devil fruit or if he used some other means to block Kizaru's abilities somewhat. We don't know how strong or fast Rayleigh is, but seeing Garp and seeing how Rayleigh seems to fully control Haki, I'd say he's a lot stronger than those Supernovas, just like Shakky said. And after all, Kizaru could have been eager to test his swordsman skills against a legend.I can't really follow ur point. I wasn't downplaying Rayleigh nor Kiz. And I wouldn't even dare to put the SN equal to Rayleigh or BB.

Kiz was aiming for Zoro's group with accelerating into his light speed. But Ray was able to stop him from using it with his sword (probably imbued with haki). As we know haki can disable the DF intangibility/invulnerability. My point earlier (a page before) was that BB could use gravity to stop him from using his light speed, just a possible scenario.

btw I would actually put teleportation (orb) ability like Enel's or Kuma's above Kizaru's light speed. Seriously his speed is only good for travelling long distance, but not in a close ranch battle as we have seen in Ray vs Kiz. And we have no reason to believe that Ray may has a DF.

We've been over this before.
I agree. We are starting to repeat the past pages.

Razh

June 03, 2009, 12:47 PM

I had this with beastboy a page before. Beating the SN doesn't put you above BB. Also we can't say BB would have trouble beating those. My point is, beating the SN is no argument, same with beating Ace or fighting equal to Rayleigh.

I wasn't giving some significance to the name Supernova, just used the word Supernova so I don't have to write each name.
The point is that those 3 have an amount of battle experience and considerable powers. Their senses are probably sharp too. Once Kizaru got bored of playing around they were dealt with in moments.

From what we've seen, Blackbeard doesn't have super senses (except with pain) and he doesn't avoid a lot of attacks. His DF would help him against Kizaru, but Kizaru is an admiral whose melee combat abilities are probably high as well. This is hardly guessing. We all know how it works in shounens, don't we?
Also, Blackbeard needs to touch Kizaru to negate his power, so he needs to pull him towards him. During the time Kizaru is being pulled, a lot can happen. But that's all been discussed before.

That stuff about Rayleigh wasn't a response. I just thought I should write my view on that. I'm not sure if I already wrote it before.

Anyway, Kizaru would really be useless if he can lose against Blackbeard at this point.

Rotten The Wizard

June 03, 2009, 01:14 PM

still cant believe people are actually debating BB being stronger than ADMIRAL KIZARU.

IMO Kizaru is probably the weakest admiral, however there's no way in hell BB can take him out, not till he expands his arsenal. His fighting style is too linear and will do him no good against someone like Kizaru.

This is the problem with people: they think that BB df powers and his display of super strength(something we've seen too many times before) makes him Godly but he's far from it. There are many flaws in his linear fighting style and he's clearly still in his developing stages.

Lord Rayleigh

June 03, 2009, 01:28 PM

Also again just cause Kizaru is light, doesn't mean he is fast. Otherwise he would have ripped Rayleigh like nothing. Yet he didn't. That just means he needs time to accelerate into light speed (Yata no Kagami).
Are you serious ? What gives him the power to kick at light speed is his DF : I do not think he would have been able without. Because of his light power, he is able to move faster.
Ki Zaru is obviously one of the fatest men in the OP Universe. Do you see how quickly he beat 4 supernovae who did not have the time to truly understand what was happening ? You can only deduce Rayleigh is among these fast men. That Rayleigh has been able to follow Ki Zaru's speed does not mean Ki Zaru is not fast.

BlackHair

June 03, 2009, 02:03 PM

Kizaru is a Admiral! <- Is that supposed to be an argument?!

So far the ONLY known awesomeness about Admirals are their logia devil fruit. My point is they didn't displayed anything great beside their logia, except Kizaru who displayed some swordplay, which was unfortunately off-panel. Assuming that they are capable of everything based on the simple fact that they are Admirals isn't a argument. Plz try to proof me wrong..

Just after one speed kick (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/508/10/), Appo was amazed by his power. Robin spoke highly of AoKiji (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/319/14/), just cause he froze a sea. This is exactly what Im talking about. They didn't displayed any agility, haki, physical strenght etc. Just their fruit powers. So don't go babbling he is an Admiral, hence he will win. This is so poor to be a argument.

I have no intention to repeat my arguments over and over. All my reasoning for my vote are in this post (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1352864&postcount=153). @Lord Rayleigh, if u read the 2nd paragraph u may understand what Im talking about. Also why orbing (Enel, Kuma) may a better technique than Yata no Kagami. @Rotten The Wizard: Why are u exaggerating our arguments? No-one (at least me) said BB is godly, invulnerable, invincible etc. This would be a hard battle for both, while I believe BB would would win by just a hair.

Benjamin Kaito

June 03, 2009, 02:05 PM

Dont forget that Kizaru wasn't probably even serious when was fighting with the SN's. Anyway, we still dont know the full potential of both BB and Kizaru, yet, based on what i saw, Kizaru would have the advantage.

A good way to make BB less dangerous was to blind him like he did with Hawkins. that way he wouldn't be able to do much to Kizaru and without fighting, the admiral could trash him pretty bad, im afraid.

BlackHair

June 03, 2009, 02:22 PM

The gap between Hawkins and Kiz was way too big. That is probably the reason why he was so easily blinded. I don't see that happening to BB. Also to be that close to BB is dangerous. Even if he is blinded, I don't see Kiz beating him in a few seconds. BB's physical endurance is extraordinary. After all he is build after a real pirate, who was knows for his endurance, as far as I know.

Razh

June 03, 2009, 02:34 PM

To be that close to Kizaru is dangerous too. As we've seen.

You yourself have refered to "shounen rules" recently. Sure, admirals didn't display much in terms of physical strength, agility and so on. But the fact that they are Marines strongest force tells a lot. There are quite a few characters who haven't shown much, and yet we still know that they are ridiculously strong.

So no, I don't think that Admirals are all about DF and nothing about basic combat abilities.
Also, it should be noted that Blackbeard's strength isn't something otherworldly either. We've seen more impressive stuff.

BlackHair

June 03, 2009, 03:21 PM

This is similar to Magellan, who Luffy brought to his knee with his Jet Bazooka. I believe character tend to develop their fighting style based on their devil fruit or weapon. Beside their logia ability, I believe they are just average. So far I have no reason to think otherwise. Luffy, Zoro etc who are trained to fight more with their physical body, should be better than the Admirals in term of physical capabilities. Also in the One Piece world character are mostly feared/respected based on their DF.

IMO One Piece as a shounen is different from other. Antagonists usually waits at the top, yet in OP we have him luring next to the protagonist. Also in other manga the power difference between each classes (Admiral/VA or Cap/Vice Cap) would be huge, yet I believe in OP it is not. I would support my idea with Croco, who recently wants to kill WB. You would believe that some1 like Croco who was defeated in the first round, would be nothing compared to a man who was introduced as the strongest and once equal to Roger. Yet we know that Croco is no idiot, he is a awesome planer, so I think we can take his words a bit serious. Especially since Jimbei wants to interrupt him.

So I think the power classification in combination with the various devil fruits is unique in One Piece. Thus I believe the gap between high tier level and Luffy is not as big as you would expect from other shounen manga. Same goes for BB and high tier.

Anyway, if being a Admiral should be a relevant argument, then I could use BB as "plot relevance" as well. As we know BB is the antagonist, so he has plot importance. Yet Im not doing that, cause I don't see it as a valuable argument.

btw about BB endurance, beside the SHs and Viper (SkyPia) I can't remember anyone displaying a high endurance as him.

Razh

June 03, 2009, 03:31 PM

Anyway, if being a Admiral should be a relevant argument, then I could use BB as "plot relevance" as well. As we know BB is the antagonist, so he has plot importance. Yet Im not doing that, cause I don't see it as a valuable argument.

Even if you used that argument it wouldn't be valid. Blackbeard has not yet reached the role of the main antagonist. Kizaru is Marines strongest asset at the moment. One of them anyway.

I guess One Piece is different when it comes to Admirals, but when it comes to Vice-Admirals, it follows shounen rules.

BlackHair

June 03, 2009, 03:39 PM

I guess One Piece is different when it comes to Admirals, but when it comes to Vice-Admirals, it follows shounen rules.So you are expecting a huge gap between the Admirals and Vice? Well I believe there are some who might be near Admiral level (Garp) if not even future Admirals, but other should be far away. But then again it is only a guess. We haven't really seen a VA fight, except those non-average.

Razh

June 03, 2009, 03:50 PM

Yes I am. When so many people freak out at the very mention of the name Admiral and when the entire world calls 3 persons the Marine's strongest force, then I tend to believe Oda. Just like I believe that Whitebeard is the strongest pirate. Otherwise, all that hype would be for nothing, and Oda isn't like Kubo in that department.

Lord Rayleigh

June 03, 2009, 04:00 PM

This is similar to Magellan, who Luffy brought to his knee with his Jet Bazooka. I believe character tend to develop their fighting style based on their devil fruit or weapon. I really believe there is not much to the Admirals, beside their Logia.
As Razh said, I think the admirals are still strong without their logia. The way they fight, even if they have their logia power, shows they are strong fighters : they have the ability to move fast, to hit strong despite of their " god power ", they are not just men that can only use their DF to attack : that kind of guy is for me Mr 3, that is why he - even with a strong devil ability - has not become a strong fighter in the manga. Mr 3 have a physical ability too but this is not the same as the Admirals', not on the same level despite the fact he could beat someone with his DF power easiliy.

Moreover, you must not forget that even if you have a DF ability that you use to fight, the fact you often fight strenghtens your body and your fighting skills because you have a " sportive activity " as if it were a training.
For example, Luffy's abilities to fight have always been associated with his DF : he was not able to fight before he ate his DF : he learnt and trained after and understood little by little how to fight the best way with. There are things that he was not able to do when he obtained his DF ability, that was not only because he did not know how to do : he was not physically able do it neither.
So, I think and I am sure that it is right that his adventures has trained/strengthened directly his body too. When BB taked out his ability, he had not been K.O. His resistance, his endurance, his strenght, his speed have raised when he raised his fighting skills based on his DF power. So, if you take out his DF power, he will be stronger than he was before he obtained the DF.
I think this is the same with the logia DF. If Luffy had ate a logia when he was little, he would have gained experience that cannot be taken if he lost his DF powers. The fact that logias are able to fight against other people mean they are physically able to follow the level. Yes, they have bonus that are intangibility and element attacks but in a fight they shown other fighting skills than that : they are not only seated, doing element attacks and protected by the intangibility. That is because they trained themselves with their DF.
We could say that Some of these other abilities have been strengthened by the DF itself, like the speed with Kizaru, but I am sure the habit to move fast have a positive impact on his body : he got stronger with that physical movement because he learnt by the training/experience how to control it, like Luffy did with his gomu gomu power : that is a physical control of his DF power.

So, for me, when you increases your control on your DF power, you increase your " normal " strenght too. And the Admirals are people that have strong abilities in all the categories : speed, resistance, strenght etc ...

Benjamin Kaito

June 03, 2009, 04:01 PM

I don't know why you have such low disregard for Admirals. For instance, they are only three, which means that they are the top of the top (but thats pretty much stated in OP). Because of this, it is clearly obvious that they are the strongest among the marines, being their ultimate power. Second, they are all Logia users, or at least makes sense that all of them are(Akainu is unknown). It has been stated here that with haki, they will just get owned. Well that might be true, but don't forget that haki isn't that much common on people so...thats pretty safe for them. Though, being a logia user grants them great power, since they have complete control over their element. In Kizaru's case, since he is light im afraid he can move at light speed as demonstrated here (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/507/15/) where he got shot and then appeared in front of those guys. If he can do that in battle, then i think it will be hard to BB touch him or even see him. Also, light speed kicks, well if he did it once, then he can do it when he wants. Again, light speed might be a bit too much for BB.

There also the fact that Robin, Drake and others said they weren't expecting that would be Kizaru the one who would answer the noble's call. That give me the impression that he is more powerful than, at least, Aokiji since those statement only tell they were expecting someone weaker. (It is not known if Akainu is stronger than him, but i would bet on that.)

But in the end, it all depends of Oda and his genius mind ^^

Also, Enel showed great endurance since he recovered very fast from the fight as well as Lucci who was able to withstand a giant pistol as well as gear 2 techs (though zoan's usually boost physical endurance, thats their major trait).

BlackHair

June 03, 2009, 05:28 PM

I believe there was a misunderstanding, I also edited my post (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1382462&postcount=204) so not sure if you got my "message". Im not downplaying the Admirals. Im just saying they are logia user (putting Akainu aside), hence their fighting style is not as much physical related as Luffy's DF. Therefore I expect their physical abilities not as good as Luffys or Zoro's. And so far I have no reason to think otherwise, since they didn't displayed any.. .

In SkyPia Enel was feared of his elemental class logia. Robin and the SHs were amazed by AoKiji as he froze the sea. Same with Appo who witnessed just a speed kick of Kizaru. I could count more and proof my point that in the OP world, character are mostly feared/respected based on their DF.

Anyway, my actual point was that you can't put Kiz above BB, just cause the one is a Admiral and the other a rising pirate. Not even to mention that BB just recently started to move, unlike Kiz who is probably for several years at the top. You have to compare their abilities and not their rank/status in the world.

Also haki (will), I rather believe everyone has it. It is just a question if you are able to use it. So not rare, but rather common. And I repeat, to use his light speed, he has to jump in his light path (Yata no Kagami). Rayleigh was able to stop him from doing with his sword, so I don't see a reason why BB couldn't with his gravity.

There also the fact that Robin, Drake and others said they weren't expecting that would be Kizaru the one who would answer the noble's call.I can't recall such a event. Can u show me in the manga where that might have happened?

Benjamin Kaito

June 04, 2009, 11:31 AM

Drake saying he never meant to run into Kizaru, so he wasn't expecting him. (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/508/14/)

Hmm cant find robin saying it..so i guess i was wrong about her lol. Though some pirates appear to be terrified when they heard upon Kizaru's landing. that can be from both fearing himself or just because he is an Admiral.

Also, yata no kagami is just a way to travel bigger distances. If he can perform a light speed kick i have no doubt he can move at the same speed at closer range, even if its only to dodge.

Lord Rayleigh

June 04, 2009, 11:55 AM

Drake saying he never meant to run into Kizaru, so he wasn't expecting him. (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/508/14/)
You misunderstood the manga. He tryed to help the supernova that was being attacked by the PX. Then, Ki Zaru noticed and intervened in the PX fight whereas he already had a fight against Hawkins.
So, Drake said he did not mean, by kicking the PX to the curb, he wanted to fight against Ki Zaru : he only wanted to beat the PX, Kizaru against Hawkins was another fight in the one he did not want to be involved.

BlackHair

June 04, 2009, 01:21 PM

Also, yata no kagami is just a way to travel bigger distances. If he can perform a light speed kick i have no doubt he can move at the same speed at closer range, even if its only to dodge.As far as we know Rayleigh is a non-DF user. Also since he is compared with Zoro, I really believe he is just swordsman. Yet he was fighting Kizaru equally in a close ranch sword fight. If Kiz really had the ability to use his light speed in close ranch, then he would have beaten Rayleigh, but he didn't.

Also his usual "light speed kicks" without Yata no Kagami are not so fast. Hawkins was able to follow his movement with his eyes (Panel 2) (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/508/09/). But Drake couldn't follow at all the Yata no Kagami speed kicks (Panel 2-3) (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/510/06/). The difference in speed is visible if we compare his speed kicks with and without Yata no Kagami.

Only with Yata no Kagami he is fast, that no-one could catch him. But if he don't use it, he has just the speed of a regular trained guy.

Onomatopoeia

June 04, 2009, 04:05 PM

As far as we know Rayleigh is a non-DF user. Also since he is compared with Zoro, I really believe he is just swordsman. Yet he was fighting Kizaru equally in a close ranch sword fight. If Kiz really had the ability to use his light speed in close ranch, then he would have beaten Rayleigh, but he didn't.

But that in itself speaks extremely highly of him since Ray is in all likelyhood a former swordsman.

Powerscaling the guy based off what we know of Roger and by making a parallel of Zoro(and his power compared to Luffy) then that puts Kizaru WAY up there on the strength tier in just swordsmenship. Like God Tier level.

We dont' know why Kizaru didn't use lightspeed at light range. Or maybe we didn't get to see the rest of the fight. We can't claim that he can't use lightspeed attacks at close range if we say literally 6 panels of the fight.

BlackHair

June 04, 2009, 04:58 PM

As far as I can tell Oda lets swordsman fight their kind, thus I actually believe both are swordsman. Since both picked their swords as they started to fight seriously. Also you have to note their small comment before stating their sword fight.

I know their fight was offpanel, but we have no reason to believe they went easy on each other. Kizaru was there to capture/kill the offender and Ray was there to save the SHs. Both intentions crossed each other, thus I believe we can tell one thing for sure, even if the fight was offpanel, they were serious one another.

And since I can't see Ray, no matter how strong and fast he is on equal level with light speed, my only logical conclusion is that Kiz can't use his light speed while fighting close ranch. Well he can use, but Ray would have enough time to stop or to even hurt him. Since I think it takes a bit time to jump into Yata no Kagami.

But just noticed another thing. Since Kiz is a swordsman, staying close to him would be dangerous, even for BB with his endurance.

Lord Rayleigh

June 04, 2009, 05:04 PM

Hawkins was able to follow his movement with his eyes (Panel 2) (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/508/09/).
Just about that deduction. I do not think he was able to follow the movement with his eyes, I think you misundestood this moment.
If he had been able to see that kind of movement, he would have at least tried to avoid it.
Moreover, if you look well, you will notice that this picture just shows the reaction of Hawkins' face after he heard Ki Zaru's words (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/508/08/) (the last ones on the page, that are menacing words). So, that prooves on the contrary that the kick was really fast as Ki Zaru's leg was already about to kick his face when he just heard/understood the words : indeed, just see the image at the right of Hawkins' face (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/508/09/) .

BlackHair

June 04, 2009, 05:24 PM

No I think it is similar to this (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/535/06/) (Panel 2). He was able to follow him with his eyes, but his body wasn't fast enough to react. I know Magallan was able to react with his hydra and Hawkins couldn't react at all. That just could mean either Magallan is faster than Hawkins or that Kizaru is faster than Luffy. Either way my point is that Hawkins couldn't react with his body but he was able to follow the speed with his eyes. But Drake couldn't see the kick at all, which was accelerated with Yata no Kagami.

In the anime (16:50) (http://animeready.com/one-piece-401/) version it is more clearer, that Hawkins didn't necessarily react to his words, but rather to the kick which was shining. I mean Kiz was standing in front of him, so there shouldn't be a reason to look to your right, if not you saw sth on you right side.

Onomatopoeia

June 04, 2009, 05:32 PM

I know their fight was offpanel, but we have no reason to believe they went easy on each other. Kizaru was there to capture/kill the offender and Ray was there to save the SHs. Both intentions crossed each other, thus I believe we can tell one thing for sure, even if the fight was offpanel, they were serious one another.

Luffy was also serious with Blueno however he didn't use Gear 2 within a few panels of the fight.

Zoro was serious against Kaku and yet he didn't use Asura within the first few panels either.

Etc.

BlackHair

June 04, 2009, 05:47 PM

I see your point. But until I see him using his light speed in close ranch, I can only assume he can't. Otherwise it would be just baseless claim. Or do u want me saying BB can hide in his darkness? Would be just another claim.

beastboy

June 04, 2009, 06:09 PM

@blackhair
In the anime is clear that kiz stopped is foot in the side of his fae and then kicked, so when hawkins saw the foot of kizaru it wasb't moving (correct me if I'm wrong)

And rayleigh most be able to walk at speed of light, cause kuma said his paws cannons were able to "move" at the speed of light, but zoro in a pretty bad state escaped a lot of those.
kuma saying that is cannon paws travel at speed of light:
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/484/11/
Zoro avoiding one hundred of those cannons:
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/484/12/

So light speed isn't really something in One Piece, yet BB's moves are a lot slower than light speed haha (0-5 I give BB a 1,5 in speed, he doesn't really avoid attacks and a laser is light and light travels by everything, so is body wouldn't survive if he was shooted with a laser in the heart, I know kiz wouldn't shoot him in the heart but its a PvsP and like shanks said, in a pirate fight there's nothing "cheap" (not with those words).)!!!
[hr]
ps: I know zoro can't walk at speed of light, I'm just saying that if he can avoid an atack at speed of light, Dark King Silvers rayleigh most be able to walk at speed of light....

BlackHair

June 04, 2009, 06:24 PM

In the anime is clear that kiz stopped is foot in the side of his fae and then kicked, so when hawkins saw the foot of kizaru it wasb't moving (correct me if I'm wrong)
I rather believe the anime version slow-motioned that kick movement. So he wasn't really stopping mid-air also he was talking while he kicked, from striking out to kicking.

About Kuma, I didn't checked Stephen trans or any other op material. Anyway on OneManga Kuma explained that the pressure canon uses the air which moves in speed of light. It's not like the attack is in speed of light. Just the material (air) is from speed of light.

I mean if Oda would describe every fast movement as speed of light, then Kizaru's fruit would be worthless.

.. So Im the only one defending BB? xD

Benjamin Kaito

June 05, 2009, 09:57 AM

You misunderstood the manga. He tryed to help the supernova that was being attacked by the PX. Then, Ki Zaru noticed and intervened in the PX fight whereas he already had a fight against Hawkins.
So, Drake said he did not mean, by kicking the PX to the curb, he wanted to fight against Ki Zaru : he only wanted to beat the PX, Kizaru against Hawkins was another fight in the one he did not want to be involved.

>.< Lol. ok, thanks for the explanation.

And about the anime argument. I rather take my conclusions from the manga. The anime can be inaccurate sometimes.

BlackHair

June 05, 2009, 01:11 PM

And about the anime argument. I rather take my conclusions from the manga. The anime can be inaccurate sometimes.I always use the anime as reference if the particular scene in the manga not clear enough. Usually fighting scenes are much more accurate in the anime.

Benjamin Kaito

June 05, 2009, 01:33 PM

I always use the anime as reference if the particular scene in the manga not clear enough. Usually fighting scenes are much more accurate in the anime.

How is that possible if the anime is only an adaptation. The anime and the manga have some differences and because of that it can be inaccurate, thats why i prefer to rely only on the manga since its written by Oda himself.

BlackHair

June 05, 2009, 02:11 PM

You are missing my point. I didn't claimed the anime to be more canon, just that in the anime are certain events more visible.

For example the haki usage: In the anime there is a particular "sound" (sfx) while using haki. Rayleigh used that to open the collar on Caimi and recently Sentomaru used it on Luffy to block his attack. These were not accurate in the manga and so far only a theory, until proven by the anime.

In my earlier reference to the anime regarding Kizaru's speed kick, it was more explicable that Hawkins could follow his kick. While in the manga it was less visible. Im not using any explanation (words) in the anime as canon just events as fighting (quick movements).

Knives_Taichou

June 05, 2009, 02:49 PM

BlackHair

June 05, 2009, 03:49 PM

Zoro, Luffy are probably stronger than Ace in term of phyiscal capabilities. Since Ace is a logia, he probably isn't used to get hit much.

LDSaint

June 06, 2009, 12:08 AM

Zoro, Luffy are probably stronger than Ace in term of phyiscal capabilities. Since Ace is a logia, he probably isn't used to get hit much.

i agree except with luffy. true ace isnt use to being hit since of his logia abilities but this can be a similar story with luffy. he is made of rubber so almost (not all) physical hits dont do much to him (this has been said). however wen blackbeard hit him he started bleeding, ture this can be a conbo of being damaged and tired already but 1 hit with his hand. so i agree zoro is higher in terms of physical capabilities, but luffy isnt that much better then ace

BlackHair

June 06, 2009, 12:10 AM

Yes of course. That with Luffy was a poor mistake of mine. I wasn't thinking straight lol.

beastboy

June 06, 2009, 10:07 AM

BlackHair

June 06, 2009, 01:28 PM

I didn't meant to say that they are physically weak. Just saying they are average. Zoro would have more endurance than Ace for sure.

Ace = average while Zoro = high

Lord Rayleigh

June 06, 2009, 02:24 PM

Well Ace can be a logia but he is strong, and the way you're saying is pretty much the same that say, eating a DF makes you weaker physically.
But it's a lie, Ace can be fire, but he moves is muscles to jump higher than a ship and longer than 3 ships, doing that he is improving is muscles, and of corse is endurance..
I support you : that was what I meant in a recent post too.

As Razh said, I think the admirals are still strong without their logia. The way they fight, even if they have their logia power, shows they are strong fighters : they have the ability to move fast, to hit strong despite of their " god power ", they are not just men that can only use their DF to attack : that kind of guy is for me Mr 3, that is why he - even with a strong devil ability - has not become a strong fighter in the manga. Mr 3 have a physical ability too but this is not the same as the Admirals', not on the same level despite the fact he could beat someone with his DF power easiliy.

Moreover, you must not forget that even if you have a DF ability that you use to fight, the fact you often fight strenghtens your body and your fighting skills because you have a " sportive activity " as if it were a training.
For example, Luffy's abilities to fight have always been associated with his DF : he was not able to fight before he ate his DF : he learnt and trained after and understood little by little how to fight the best way with. There are things that he was not able to do when he obtained his DF ability, that was not only because he did not know how to do : he was not physically able do it neither.
So, I think and I am sure that it is right that his adventures has trained/strengthened directly his body too. When BB taked out his ability, he had not been K.O. His resistance, his endurance, his strenght, his speed have raised when he raised his fighting skills based on his DF power. So, if you take out his DF power, he will be stronger than he was before he obtained the DF.
I think this is the same with the logia DF. If Luffy had ate a logia when he was little, he would have gained experience that cannot be taken if he lost his DF powers. The fact that logias are able to fight against other people mean they are physically able to follow the level. Yes, they have bonus that are intangibility and element attacks but in a fight they shown other fighting skills than that : they are not only seated, doing element attacks and protected by the intangibility. That is because they trained themselves with their DF.
We could say that Some of these other abilities have been strengthened by the DF itself, like the speed with Kizaru, but I am sure the habit to move fast have a positive impact on his body : he got stronger with that physical movement because he learnt by the training/experience how to control it, like Luffy did with his gomu gomu power : that is a physical control of his DF power.

So, for me, when you increases your control on your DF power, you increase your " normal " strenght too. And the Admirals are people that have strong abilities in all the categories : speed, resistance, strenght etc ...
But as you can see I do not think that your following reasoning is an undeniable truth.

So eating a DF don't makes you more susceptible to real hits, but you won't improve you're resistance as if you were without one.
I think a DF can also strenghtens your body and make you improve your physical ability faster than if you had not eaten that DF because your can become able to practise things you were not able before. For example, running at light speed for Ki Zaru is for me a way to get stronger and so, to improve your resistance to physical tiredness. For Luffy, his gomu gomu movements had made his body stronger than it would have been if he had not eaten it. And by taking his ability, BB does not take the physical endurance Luffy only got because he trained with his DF : otherwise, Luffy would have been K.O immediately. BB takes only the rubber resistance but thanks to the repetitive utilisation of his rubber ability, Luffy has managed to improve his " real " physical abilities in a way he could not have done if he had not eaten the gomu gomu fruit.

I didn't meant to say that they are physically weak. Just saying they are average. Zoro would have more endurance than Ace for sure.

Ace = average while Zoro = high
The fact you have more resistance than someone does not mean you can beat in a fair fight that same person. Even without his DF ability, it is possible that Ace can beat someone that have a better endurance than his. After all, he has always been able to beat Luffy when they lived together whereas he had not eaten a DF yet and Luffy had.

BlackHair

June 06, 2009, 04:07 PM

The fact you have more resistance than someone does not mean you can beat in a fair fight that same person. Even without his DF ability, it is possible that Ace can beat someone that have a better endurance than his. After all, he has always been able to beat Luffy when they lived together whereas he had not eaten a DF yet and Luffy had.Plz don't twist my words. All I referred to was physical endurance. Also the whole last page I only meant physical capabilities. I never put Zoro and Luffy above Ace or the Admirals. .. physical capabilities is not the only factor to determine some1 fighting strenght.

Razh

June 06, 2009, 04:47 PM

i agree except with luffy. true ace isnt use to being hit since of his logia abilities but this can be a similar story with luffy. he is made of rubber so almost (not all) physical hits dont do much to him (this has been said). however wen blackbeard hit him he started bleeding, ture this can be a conbo of being damaged and tired already but 1 hit with his hand. so i agree zoro is higher in terms of physical capabilities, but luffy isnt that much better then ace

Ace bled from his mouth and Luffy bled from his mouth when they received a blow from Blackbeard. Luffy was slammed against stone.
Anyway, those, aren't biggies in One Piece.
Besides, Blackbeard is so strong that he can probably make anyone bleed. Says the majority of voters. Who says Zoro is an exception? Nobody bleeds more than him.

Now could you explain how Zoro is above Ace and Luffy in physical capabilities? Luffy can take just as much as Zoro, and I think this recent poisoning and healing proved that Zoro isn't more durable than Luffy.

LDSaint

June 06, 2009, 07:24 PM

Ace bled from his mouth and Luffy bled from his mouth when they received a blow from Blackbeard. Luffy was slammed against stone.
Anyway, those, aren't biggies in One Piece.
Besides, Blackbeard is so strong that he can probably make anyone bleed. Says the majority of voters. Who says Zoro is an exception? Nobody bleeds more than him.

Now could you explain how Zoro is above Ace and Luffy in physical capabilities? Luffy can take just as much as Zoro, and I think this recent poisoning and healing proved that Zoro isn't more durable than Luffy.

ok uve made me see the light. especially with the whole poision recovery thing. but thats only made me think that luffy is higher i still believe that ace still isnt as high (im not saying his the bottom) as zoro, but im happy to be proven that he is (again:tem). imo i think that hes been fightin so much with his fruit that if u take it away he wouldnt be strong he wouldnt be used to it and wouldnt be used to taking hits and since he hasnt he has weakned physically without his fruit. imo he relies to much on his fruit (since its a big source of power) and as a result his physically abilities without it grow weaker.

**EDIT
sry forgot abit compared to zoro who doesnt have a fruit must rely on his physical abilities and sword and thats y i think hes higher

beastboy

June 06, 2009, 08:16 PM

I support you : that was what I meant in a recent post too.

But as you can see I do not think that your following reasoning is an undeniable truth.

I think a DF can also strenghtens your body and make you improve your physical ability faster than if you had not eaten that DF because your can become able to practise things you were not able before. For example, running at light speed for Ki Zaru is for me a way to get stronger and so, to improve your resistance to physical tiredness. For Luffy, his gomu gomu movements had made his body stronger than it would have been if he had not eaten it. And by taking his ability, BB does not take the physical endurance Luffy only got because he trained with his DF : otherwise, Luffy would have been K.O immediately. BB takes only the rubber resistance but thanks to the repetitive utilisation of his rubber ability, Luffy has managed to improve his " real " physical abilities in a way he could not have done if he had not eaten the gomu gomu fruit.

The fact you have more resistance than someone does not mean you can beat in a fair fight that same person. Even without his DF ability, it is possible that Ace can beat someone that have a better endurance than his. After all, he has always been able to beat Luffy when they lived together whereas he had not eaten a DF yet and Luffy had.

I just said that a DFuser don't improves as much as if you didn't have one is cause of the surprise efect, if you do not feel pain for 100 years (hiperbole) and then you're kicked at speed of light you'll have a lot more pain than if you received one of those kicks everyday.
But zoans and physicaly paramecia's like gomu gomu make's you improve you're stength a bit more than if you didn't have one, but other don't, see meggelen, he was a strong guy, but then he ate the doku doku fruit, now he just sits and is hydras do the job, he steel is ablle to follow gear2, but he didn't improve more than that cause he don't use is muscles to fight, thats what I think..
ps: BB isn't strong, basically if you hit some one in the neck he will bleed, even in real life...

Lord Rayleigh

June 07, 2009, 04:56 AM

Plz don't twist my words. All I referred to was physical endurance. Also the whole last page I only meant physical capabilities. I never put Zoro and Luffy above Ace or the Admirals. .. physical capabilities is not the only factor to determine some1 fighting strenght.
I knew you meant physical capabilities, this is why I reacted about Zoro physically stronger than Ace. When I said a fair fight, I was not counting the DF abilities and all the other tools that can be seen as unfair : I was, as you, only taking care of the physical capabilities.
I agree that Zoro should have a better physical resistance BUT I disagree that means Zoro is physically stronger than other people : because the physical capabilities as you said are not only the physical resistance. So among the physical capabilities, you have your resistance for example but there are also speed, physical technics, dodging, strenght etc ...
So, even if someone is very tough, that does not mean he is stronger. Zoro's resistance is probably unique : a few few people, even among strongest people, could have survived in such a situation. But nevertheless, there are non DF users that could beat Zoro easily whereas they are not as tough as him.
It is why I reacted when you deduced Ace is physically stronger than Zoro. We do not know that. Ace was physically stronger than Luffy with his DF when he left Fushia town.

Just a question, do you count speed, technics, dodging, strenght, as included in the physical capabilities, or among the other factors in your reasoning. Because as you should have seen, they are definitely for me a part of the physical capabilities and that is what makes me disagree about the " Zoro physically stronger than Ace " because your postulate only considers the unique resistance of Zoro that is stronger than Ace.