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KaNx
September 26, 2008, 02:14 PM
If you haven't seen the goodies yet, you can check them out in the Spoiler Pics and Summaries (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39829) thread. This is where you can discuss all about them. No spamming allowed.

But remember: NO SPOILERS OUTSIDE THE SPOILER THREADS. This rule will be strictly enforced. Please respect those that don't want to be spoiled. Thanks.

Aizen Sama
October 01, 2008, 09:06 AM
It's nice to see the color spread but I would like to know what happens in the chapter.

EmbodiedDespair
October 01, 2008, 09:13 AM
ARE YOU SERIOUS?

Dude, I knew it. Hueco Mundo is really a subway station in Japan.

patedecarne
October 01, 2008, 10:17 AM
Great...

Another chit chat chapter where Iba and Ikkaku are discussing about Ikkaku's bankai...

Well, it isn't a bad thing, but seems the whole chapter was dedicated to this conversation... I don't know why Kubo wastes an entire chapter with some conversation about Ikkaku, a minor character...

kalerab
October 01, 2008, 10:23 AM
Great...

Another chit chat chapter where Iba and Ikkaku are discussing about Ikkaku's bankai...

Well, it isn't a bad thing, but seems the whole chapter was dedicated to this conversation... I don't know why Kubo wastes an entire chapter with some conversation about Ikkaku, a minor character...

I can´t believe that´s all. How could possibly Kubo put few sentences to 18 pages - there´s got to be more of it.

drakend
October 01, 2008, 10:42 AM
I have a bad feeling for the coming chapters... it's either the vaizards join Aizen or the top three espada will own gotei very badly.

kweci
October 01, 2008, 10:44 AM
I can´t believe that´s all. How could possibly Kubo put few sentences to 18 pages - there´s got to be more of it.

Kubo can stretch out a word over 18 pages if it means ending the chapter on the right suspenseful note (re-read the kenpachi-nnoitra fight, lol, talk about full-page panels!)... to be honest, there was no way he could have started a fight this chapter without it either being rushed, or ending abruptly or something... anyways, i hope he at least hints at the match-ups in this chapter!

ryanzokuken
October 01, 2008, 10:45 AM
man, people complain no matter what.

when there's character developement and dialogue, everyone whines and wants fighting.

when there's fighting, people whine about the story not advancing.

nokozon
October 01, 2008, 11:08 AM
man, people complain no matter what.

when there's character developement and dialogue, everyone whines and wants fighting.

when there's fighting, people whine about the story not advancing.

My thoughts exactly. No more whining!

We're finally getting some solid character developments. Ikkaku needs to come to terms with the responsibility of having bankai. He deserves a lecture at very least, and the fact that Iba and Komamura also know now increase the pressure on him to step up.

Aizen Sama
October 01, 2008, 11:20 AM
Finally some plot progression and character development. This manga will be saved if Ikkaku becomes a captain.

Starky-08
October 01, 2008, 11:23 AM
I like character develpoment and am also getting annoyed with these whiners, you get what your given, deal with it!
Anyway, seems the chapter after this is where it begins!

Megaman84
October 01, 2008, 11:28 AM
I reckon its only a matter of time until it comes out that Ikkaku has bankai and he is promoted to taichou. Will be good to see some progression on that front. I can imagine Kubo will be getting everything else in line from here, tying loose ends and then we will see the carnage!

Aizen Sama
October 01, 2008, 11:30 AM
I reckon its only a matter of time until it comes out that Ikkaku has bankai and he is promoted to taichou. Will be good to see some progression on that front. I can imagine Kubo will be getting everything else in line from here, tying loose ends and then we will see the carnage!

I mean if he wants to give fanservice to the readers what better way than to make Ikkaku and/or Renji captains.

tn312
October 01, 2008, 11:39 AM
I think it is a good story development for the week. Iba telling Ikkaku that his bankai is no comparison to Komamura's should give Ikkaku more reasons/motivations to improve his bankai because his power only bankai does not compare to Komamura's powerful (maybe power only?) bankai.

omimon
October 01, 2008, 12:15 PM
I personally think that even if the captains know about Ikkaku's bankai they won't promote him just yet. I mean think about it, he needed bankai just to defeat a normal arrancar that wasn't an Espada while Byakuya totally owned the 7th Espada when he used his bankai. He definity needs more training.

Megaman84
October 01, 2008, 12:33 PM
I personally think that even if the captains know about Ikkaku's bankai they won't promote him just yet. I mean think about it, he needed bankai just to defeat a normal arrancar that wasn't an Espada while Byakuya totally owned the 7th Espada when he used his bankai. He definity needs more training.

That is most definitely true. In real terms though, there are 3 vancant captain positions. Ikkaku would prove to be a strong candidate. Do you reckon that Soul Society would either wait until Ikkaku is ready or fill it right away? Mind you though Renji-o hasnt made captain yet - he is a complete pussy though.

ryanzokuken
October 01, 2008, 12:37 PM
i can see it being one of those end of the story, wrap up kind of deals.

the last 5-10 episodes will be peaceful, everything getting back to normal, being rebuilt, people recovering from injuries, remembering any comrades who died, starting to live happily ever after.

Ichigo and his Karakura friends will visit Soul Society and Renji will greet them, wearing a captain haori and they'll all be surprised and it will be a comic kind of feel-good moment. then Ikakku will be seen wearing one as well. and of course, someone else will have to become a captain as well to fill the third slot. or maybe some former captain will be asked back, like Urahara, Yoruichi, or Isshin.

hajialibaig
October 01, 2008, 12:42 PM
So basically, if you had skipped this chapter you'd have missed nothing. Cool. Another week doesn't sound too long (not after waiting 3 months)

Revan46
October 01, 2008, 01:42 PM
I laughed at Komamura's comment "I don't hear very well", I think our lovable fox just made a joke XD

OhDearMoshe
October 01, 2008, 02:28 PM
I wonder if the vizard will win their captaincy slots back via helping save soul soceities ass. Then again the numbers don't mix well. Just thought id throw that in there.

Raizen
October 01, 2008, 02:40 PM
Finnaly the real fight starts. About damn time.
I really hope that there is more to this chapter than just that.

And question. Form what hitsu has said, VL is stronger than an average captain right? I mean VL and Captains are basically similar. They both have a limit. A captain can only max out his shinigami limits while a VL can only max out its hollow limits. SO if A Captain at max fights a VL at max, it would be a tie. In the end it is all about the hokyoku.

Starky-08
October 01, 2008, 02:50 PM
I wonder if the vizard will win their captaincy slots back via helping save soul soceities ass. Then again the numbers don't mix well. Just thought id throw that in there.

Well unless a Captain dies, it would make sense aizen gone Shinji can take back 5th division, Rose can take 3rd Gins gone and Kensei can take 9th, Tousens gone, so if Komamura dies Love can take his back, but I hope this dosn't happen.

Eye of the tiger
October 01, 2008, 03:00 PM
That is most definitely true. In real terms though, there are 3 vancant captain positions. Ikkaku would prove to be a strong candidate. Do you reckon that Soul Society would either wait until Ikkaku is ready or fill it right away? Mind you though Renji-o hasnt made captain yet - he is a complete pussy though.

Ikkaku's bankai isn't strong enough to make him captain.. In that case, Renji would've been a captain as well. But Ikkaku is a 3rd seat, he'd definitely have to move to a senior seated position, like Ukitake's LT.. but he wants to remain under Zaraki.. plus Zaraki himself does not know bankai, so he's not sure his captain would be that much appreciative of him knowing bankai.. hell, zaraki might challenge him to a duel to death!!
[hr]

I wonder if the vizard will win their captaincy slots back via helping save soul soceities ass. Then again the numbers don't mix well. Just thought id throw that in there.

Maybe vizards will make a special SS squad... the -1 squad!!

xXAshisogiJizoXx
October 01, 2008, 03:36 PM
It is true that there are to many complainers, and many mange readers are a lil jaded, but i have to admit, kubo does put very little content-per-chapter as compared to other manga. I think a perfect example of what a manga chapter should be is the epic rurouni kenshin. In the time it takes me to read one RK chapter, i could easily have read 3-4 in bleach. also, fights seemed long and fulfilling in RK, and yet when you look back, the avg. 1v1 fight took an avg. of 2-3 chapters, including the "big" fights, whereas a big fight in bleach usually takes up 5-6 chapters, usually filled with monologues.

i must learn to stop my urges to rant, alas, i cannot help myself.

However, i like the way this chapter sounds, transition from little fights to big fight, with a dose of humor, a necassary chapter in my opinion

Aonsaithya
October 01, 2008, 03:42 PM
Ikkaku's bankai isn't strong enough to make him captain.. In that case, Renji would've been a captain as well. But Ikkaku is a 3rd seat, he'd definitely have to move to a senior seated position, like Ukitake's LT.. but he wants to remain under Zaraki.. plus Zaraki himself does not know bankai, so he's not sure his captain would be that much appreciative of him knowing bankai.. hell, zaraki might challenge him to a duel to death!!
<hr noshade size="1">


Maybe vizards will make a special SS squad... the -1 squad!!

I suppose SS's policy would say that one won't lose his captain position unless defeated/killed in combat with 200 witnesses, so Zaraki would have nothing to fear unless Ikkaku would challenge him. Not that he'd have anything to fear then either, he defeated the 5th espada without knowing the name of his sword, while bankai-Ikkaku barely defeated (his bankai got pretty trashed) a numeros arrancar. I think that just makes Ikkaku respect Zaraki even more, seeing him as "the man", so he wouldn't want to challenge him.

-1 squad? rather the +/-1 squad, as they are hybrids ;D

redcometfm
October 01, 2008, 03:46 PM
It is true that there are to many complainers, and many mange readers are a lil jaded, but i have to admit, kubo does put very little content-per-chapter as compared to other manga. I

Its probably due to pressure from SJ to milk it. I remember how Bleach used to be, it was fast paced, detail filled, very funny, much funnier than the humorous moments of recent. I dare anyone to deny that SS towards the second half (post-Ishida v. Mayuri) wasn't stretched out a bit. I will say though that is has improved.

ShaunMati1
October 01, 2008, 03:54 PM
WOOOW people here get tired of the complaints....really. To speak for the people that complain. I dont think they complain about what they get in the chapter, they complain about HOW MUCH they get. 18-19 pages just dedicated to ikkaku's secret...please we all know kubo can do that in one page. The reason why people also complain when there are only fights or only dialogue is because there is no balance. Remember the start of the pillar fights when kira got all angry when he heard Gin's name and we got a reaction from gin. Well i really heard no complaints in that chapter because there was a certain balance between dialogue and action. Now as a bleach fan i understand that some of you want to protect bleach's name....but there are flaws that people do see...let them express those flaws.

As for the chapter....i hope we also get the match-ups of whos fighting who. I also wonder how long it will take before aizen gets out of the flame wall.

Omi_XII
October 01, 2008, 04:53 PM
I think this is really a good up and coming chapter, it will likely set it up, and I wouldn't be surprised if at the end of the chapter as BArragan jumps up, it changes to Ichigo.

Remember, just because it's a spoiler doesn't mean thats all there is to the content of the up coming chapter! There's been plenty of times when there's more than just what the spoiler mentioned. Well, a bit of both really, so it's slightly silly to bitch about the chapter before it's released! Atleast wait to see it!

Tsukisama
October 01, 2008, 05:35 PM
Ikkaku's bankai isn't strong enough to make him captain.. In that case, Renji would've been a captain as well. But Ikkaku is a 3rd seat, he'd definitely have to move to a senior seated position, like Ukitake's LT.. but he wants to remain under Zaraki.. plus Zaraki himself does not know bankai, so he's not sure his captain would be that much appreciative of him knowing bankai.. hell, zaraki might challenge him to a duel to death!!

Beyond the position of captain in Gotei 13, I don't think there is much necessity to fill the positions. Lieutenants have been shown to considered somewhat expendable as stated by Yamamoto in SS arc. Thus, even though Ikkaku is powerful enough to be a vice-captain, he won't be required to advance to the lieutenant position of the 11th division or especiallly fill the vacant position in the 13th division. Choice of lieutenant is up to the captain, and I don't think Ukitake would necessarily want Ikkaku to fill in the position. Ukitake likely has his reasons for not filling the post yet.

yoshikamaru
October 01, 2008, 06:05 PM
I wonder if the vizard will win their captaincy slots back via helping save soul soceities ass. Then again the numbers don't mix well. Just thought id throw that in there.

Naah, they had their times :)
Now it's the new generations turn to lead the Gotei 13 ;)

Onomatopoeia
October 01, 2008, 06:37 PM
Obvious Stall is Obvious.

We really don't need an entire chapter dedicated to Ikkaku's secret. Which could have been easily wrapped up in 4-5 panels at most. Once you start comparing things that really don't need to be compared then you know you've entered stall.

But at least Captain fights will start next chapter and it seems the captains and espada were really just standing their for 10+ minutes waiting for the F4 fights to end... hoping Kubo would have a better explanation.

Raizen
October 01, 2008, 06:50 PM
Obvious Stall is Obvious.

We really don't need an entire chapter dedicated to Ikkaku's secret. Which could have been easily wrapped up in 4-5 panels at most. Once you start comparing things that really don't need to be compared then you know you've entered stall.

But at least Captain fights will start next chapter and it seems the captains and espada were really just standing their for 10+ minutes waiting for the F4 fights to end... hoping Kubo would have a better explanation.
They were all giving each other the evil eye.
IMO I think kubo will change to ichigo vs ulquiorra so that once he is finished, urahara can then open the gate. I really don't want this to happen b/c The captain fight interest me much much more

craig
October 01, 2008, 08:35 PM
Personally I hope the captains get pwned quickly with Yama and the doublemint twins putting up a decent fight. That, or some surprise variable Y gets thrown into the mix to add some unpredictability to the current situation. Maybe it's just me, but with the way it's currently written there's just soooooo much shit to be resolved yet in this manga before the story can really progress and I'm not exactly on the edge of my seat for any of it. At this point I don't feel like the good guys could ever lose, which makes the story boring.

Revan46
October 01, 2008, 10:40 PM
I dunno, we haven't even gotten a confirmed spoiler....and the stuff translated could fit into like maybe four or five pages at most. I really think we might get a bit more than what we think this chapter. But I guess we'll see. All I'm saying is even if the lines on the spoiler summary are a page each, that's only 9 pages. a chapter is often 18-21. So we're going to probably get more.

Cyanilurus
October 02, 2008, 12:30 AM
Maybe, but I would say probably not because of the trend of previous month. I' m not hating this chapter, with the Komamura moment there I actually find it quite likeable, plus Ikkaku gets a proper scolding for his idiocy. In my opinion a switch right now would have been bad for the pacing, bad for those of us who read it on a weekly basis but good enough for those who rather llike to read big amounts every couple months.

Nevertheless, getting more than it is in the spoiler is never bad for your health. :p

Aonsaithya
October 02, 2008, 05:37 AM
I think Ichigo vs Ulquiorra has to come before the Captains vs Espada. Why? Well, why would Kubo first show us what the 1-3 are capable of, and then jump to 4th Espada Ulquiorra? It would seem illogical.
Unless the SS Capt. get completely owned by the 1-3, and then we're shown how awesome Ichigo is when he defeats Ulq.

Hockeychaoz
October 02, 2008, 06:28 AM
I think Ichigo vs Ulquiorra has to come before the Captains vs Espada. Why? Well, why would Kubo first show us what the 1-3 are capable of, and then jump to 4th Espada Ulquiorra? It would seem illogical.
Unless the SS Capt. get completely owned by the 1-3, and then we're shown how awesome Ichigo is when he defeats Ulq.

Best logic I've read so far.
The only reason I can see him doing that is because Ulq is a fanboy magnet.

mackazoid
October 02, 2008, 07:27 AM
Best logic I've read so far.
The only reason I can see him doing that is because Ulq is a fanboy magnet.

Yup! I'm the ULTIMATE UlQ fanboy!!
I really hope he goes that direction, I really wanna see Ulquiorra's fight!:p

King Mordred
October 02, 2008, 07:44 AM
I guess Barragan is number 3 after all if he's fighting already.

Revan46
October 02, 2008, 09:48 AM
Heh, what I'm wondering is....is Halibel's number on her breast?! I mean with the outfit she wears, I don't know where else it could be except perhaps her neck which she keeps covered, or her legs (in which no Espada has yet to have their number on their lower body....) But I also believe that might be the case. I mean why would Barragan if he's number 1 or even number 2, automatically say "I'm having my fraccion fight now!" once Aizen is in the fire? Just doesn't make sense....Well I hope we see at least one of the top 3's powers just at the end of the battle. Or they just randomly go "I'm No. 1, I'm No. 2, I'm No. 3"

Aizen Sama
October 02, 2008, 10:35 AM
I feel like we are missing some crucial information about this chapter. Hopefully Aizen makes an appearance.

The other one of Barragan's fraccion is definitely a bee. She's fighting soi fong.

wooticus
October 02, 2008, 11:20 AM
ukitake and shunsui vs stark and his fraccion... wow.. hard to figure out who will win this matchup

wondering that soifon is actually up against an fraccion, too.

so whats left? all fraccions are in battle. stark is in battle.

barragan and halibel left?

but no shinigami... only yoruichi left for halibel...

ps: i think her number is around her mouth.. or her mask or something.. cause she hides it with her cloak

Aizen Sama
October 02, 2008, 11:24 AM
ukitake and shunsui vs stark and his fraccion... wow.. hard to figure out who will win this matchup

wondering that soifon is actually up against an fraccion, too.

so whats left? all fraccions are in battle. stark is in battle.

barragan and halibel left?

but no shinigami... only yoruichi left for halibel...

ps: i think her number is around her mouth.. or her mask or something.. cause she hides it with her cloak

I don't see Yoruichi fighting in this arc. Just my opinion.

Maybe Barragan is number one, Stark is the only espada fighting now.

toussaintac
October 02, 2008, 11:30 AM
Does Shunsui and Ukitake matching up against Stark and his fraccion mean Stark is Numero Uno? I hope so, so this debate can end...lol...I still want to see Soi Fon's bankai. If her Shikai kills you in two strikes to the same spot then I want to be wowed by whatever her bankai does. But the chapter after this should be interesting, although i figure it's going to actually cut back to Ichigo and Ulquiorra.

patedecarne
October 02, 2008, 11:46 AM
OK, now things seems to be interesting again^_^

Haha, Shunsui and Ukitake vs Stark? Stark must be numero dos, that's for sure;

And Halibel and Barragan still haven't any opponents, huh? well, after seeing the new formation, I'll say that Soul Society is in great danger...

They'll be so fatigued after these fights(counting they'll win these fights) and still will be left Aizen, Gin and Tousen

I'd risk to say that the tide was turned again, this time helping the bad guys...

ryanzokuken
October 02, 2008, 12:04 PM
there could still be opponents for Barragan and Halibel.

remember, Komamura is still fresh and in perfect condition to fight some more. he and Iba are possible contenders still...

and Yama may still be able to take part whilst keeping the flame prison going. and even if he's not, his lieutenant can fight.


seems to me that if Shunsui and Ukitake are fighting Stark and his single fraccion, it would make sense that he would be number one.

and also, about Halibel covering the lower part of her face...

i fear she's hiding something hideous.
the rest of her is so out there on display and sexually appealing, yet she hides her mouth, where we can see the rest of her mask is.

anyone here mortal kombat fans? familiar with Mileena? sexy ninja chick, but with a tarkatan face (big, ugly mouth filled with huge, spiky teeth) underneath the veil.

i don't think Halibel will be so easy on the eyes if the cloth covering her face is removed. O_O

Dynast
October 02, 2008, 12:28 PM
What would Hitsugaya do against Halibel? Bleed on her?

kweci
October 02, 2008, 12:38 PM
Exciting! I only pray that the captains fighting the fraccions (hitsu and soifon) don't have too hard a time. not only would that confirm what some people think of their power-levels, but it may also take them out of the rest of the confrontation, whatever it may be... also, are barragan and halibel going to stand around (staring daggers at yama-ji and leut.) while the rest fight? i can see barragan vs. yamaji, but halibel vs. komamura or something doesn't make sense, lol... too much speculation, better wait for the chapter!

oh god, it's going to some x-rated shit if halibel's number is presently covered by what little fabric she's wearing... it better be a microscopic number that is already visible, lol...

Starky-08
October 02, 2008, 12:56 PM
Wow liked the summary.
So it's a good match up for each I think Barragan will fight Yama-ji soon, but for Halibel I'm unsure unless Soifon quickly dispatches her opponent with Shikai then she will fight Halibel.
Also Omaeda fighting, interesting I wonder how strong this guy really is, maybe if he starts losing to Barragans fraccion maybe Sasakibe joins in and maybe when/if Barragan and Yama-ji fight Komamaura will step in since he is in dept to Yama-ji and then the fire prison breaks open and Tousen fights Koma, Hitsugaya and Matsumoto finish off Halibel's fraccion and take on Gin.

kkck
October 02, 2008, 01:20 PM
OMG this chapter is going to be so awesome... Hopefully by the next one we get some serious action.
SO hitsugaya is going to fight mere fractions? I dont think he will have a lot of trouble. I have wanted to see kyoraku and ukitake fight for a long LONG time, but somehow I get the feeling they are going to get their asses handed to them.
BTW Start #1 espada!!!!

xXAshisogiJizoXx
October 02, 2008, 01:24 PM
Well, after reading the full summary this chapter looks to be the best in a while i think. i like the pairings so far except for Hitsu vs. Halibel.Now, im not saying Hitsu is weak, but i don't think he is quite on level with one of the top three espadas, especially the one with the most fraccions left. considering Barragan has two left, one half dead, even stupid omaeda can handle that. Stark is probably the strongest, as two uber cpt.s went to fight him and his one fraccion. i have the feeling though, that ukitakes illness will make an unwlecome appearance in that fight. Koma would probably make sure fake KK is ready before jumping into the fight.
I would also love it if Halibel was fugly, mostly because ugly people are few and far between in manga..yeah, ugly people, representin'.I am an Mk fan, and a mileena-esque face would be perfect. But most likely it will just be the rest of her mask though, maybe she's ver self-conscious of it.
Also, i wanna see the 1st div lt. do something, i mean he should be farely strong as yama's lt., but all we have seen him do is get...PWNed!!! <--(thats for you ryanzokuken)

ryanzokuken
October 02, 2008, 01:46 PM
What would Hitsugaya do against Halibel? Bleed on her?

yes. correct. :)



Wow liked the summary.
So it's a good match up for each I think Barragan will fight Yama-ji soon, but for Halibel I'm unsure unless Soifon quickly dispatches her opponent with Shikai then she will fight Halibel.
Also Omaeda fighting, interesting I wonder how strong this guy really is, maybe if he starts losing to Barragans fraccion maybe Sasakibe joins in and maybe when/if Barragan and Yama-ji fight Komamaura will step in since he is in dept to Yama-ji and then the fire prison breaks open and Tousen fights Koma, Hitsugaya and Matsumoto finish off Halibel's fraccion and take on Gin.

if Rangiku actually takes part in harming Gin or in Gin's defeat, i will punch a kitten. :notrust



Well, after reading the full summary this chapter looks to be the best in a while i think. i like the pairings so far except for Hitsu vs. Halibel.Now, im not saying Hitsu is weak, but i don't think he is quite on level with one of the top three espadas, especially the one with the most fraccions left. considering Barragan has two left, one half dead, even stupid omaeda can handle that. Stark is probably the strongest, as two uber cpt.s went to fight him and his one fraccion. i have the feeling though, that ukitakes illness will make an unwlecome appearance in that fight. Koma would probably make sure fake KK is ready before jumping into the fight.
I would also love it if Halibel was fugly, mostly because ugly people are few and far between in manga..yeah, ugly people, representin'.I am an Mk fan, and a mileena-esque face would be perfect. But most likely it will just be the rest of her mask though, maybe she's ver self-conscious of it.
Also, i wanna see the 1st div lt. do something, i mean he should be farely strong as yama's lt., but all we have seen him do is get...PWNed!!! <--(thats for you ryanzokuken)


lol, he did pretty much get wrecked, didn't he? i mean, in bleach, when you get taken out with one hit, NOT EVEN A CLOSED FIST, at that, you're just pathetic and you've embarrassed yourself.

*ahem* Chojiro, Omaeda, Isane, Momo *ahem* :p

Aizen Sama
October 02, 2008, 01:46 PM
Well, after reading the full summary this chapter looks to be the best in a while i think. i like the pairings so far except for Hitsu vs. Halibel.Now, im not saying Hitsu is weak, but i don't think he is quite on level with one of the top three espadas, especially the one with the most fraccions left. considering Barragan has two left, one half dead, even stupid omaeda can handle that. Stark is probably the strongest, as two uber cpt.s went to fight him and his one fraccion. i have the feeling though, that ukitakes illness will make an unwlecome appearance in that fight. Koma would probably make sure fake KK is ready before jumping into the fight.
I would also love it if Halibel was fugly, mostly because ugly people are few and far between in manga..yeah, ugly people, representin'.I am an Mk fan, and a mileena-esque face would be perfect. But most likely it will just be the rest of her mask though, maybe she's ver self-conscious of it.
Also, i wanna see the 1st div lt. do something, i mean he should be farely strong as yama's lt., but all we have seen him do is get...PWNed!!! <--(thats for you ryanzokuken)

Hitzugaya isn't fighting hallibel. He's fighting her fraccion.

hajialibaig
October 02, 2008, 01:53 PM
Yay! Finally, some progress has been made and the first match-ups have been revealed. I think Hitsu + his lieutenant will fight Halibel's fraccion. Afterall, Hitsu is on par with 10th Espada :D

And yea, Shunsui + Ukitake vs. Stark (2 powerful captains) could very well mean Stark = #1

Starky-08
October 02, 2008, 01:57 PM
Momo wasn't defeated in a punch, she was stabbed by Aizen, and it was only a one hit win because she didn't expect Aizen to do it.

Back on topic:
This chapter and the next will be awesome, I can't wait to see Shunsui and Ukitake in action against my favourite Espada.

Hockeychaoz
October 02, 2008, 02:07 PM
I think the captains vs fraccion are a good chance to set the level of power for Soi Fon and Hitsu. I want to see some complete ownage here as Komamaru just OHK'ed a fraccion, and he was by himself.

Hitsu and Soi Fon better do some hardcore raping to keep their titles of captain.


Also, why are there so many comments of Hitsu fighting Halible? Its her fraccions >_>. I know he hasn't had the best history of fights, but he's not that bad. As weak as he seems, he's only really lost to Aizen so far.

ShaunMati1
October 02, 2008, 02:11 PM
I dont think we will see the fights quite yet. It still doesnt make sense they will show the top 3 espada fight then go to ulquiorra. As someone mentioned that isnt really logical. I feel that kubo will set these fights up just so we have an idea of whos fighting who than switch back to HM where ichigo is.

Dynast
October 02, 2008, 02:25 PM
As weak as he seems, he's only really lost to Aizen so far.

As weak as he seems, he's only really win over Hinamori so far.

ryanzokuken
October 02, 2008, 02:31 PM
Momo wasn't defeated in a punch, she was stabbed by Aizen, and it was only a one hit win because she didn't expect Aizen to do it.

Back on topic:
This chapter and the next will be awesome, I can't wait to see Shunsui and Ukitake in action against my favourite Espada.

she was knocked out with a backhand bitch slap from Hitsu.

hossice
October 02, 2008, 02:36 PM
but no one is fighting halibel? hint at #1???? maybe....or not

Oni_James
October 02, 2008, 02:55 PM
after chapter passes i start to think more about a 3 sided battle shinigami/arrancar/vizard, and then 2 options:
1the three traitors take advantage of these vizard arrival and scape
2they kill aizen: series finishes? new villain?
i expected more coming from some captains, Soi fong vs Halibel would have been cool

EmbodiedDespair
October 02, 2008, 02:59 PM
My favorite Espada fighting my two favorite Captains.

This ought to be sweet.

Can't wait to see what ends up happening.

bloodrage
October 02, 2008, 03:04 PM
yh no one is fighting him i think he is number two but can really be number one if he wanted but is just lazy thats all and can't be bothered if someone kills are hurts his farracion then we will see his true power plus the vizard are still on their way which i don't think aizen is prepared far so he will have a fierce battle on his hands

Starky-08
October 02, 2008, 03:09 PM
she was knocked out with a backhand bitch slap from Hitsu.

Yeah but she was unstable at the time because she didn't know what was right and what was wrong, so yeah.

patz
October 02, 2008, 03:18 PM
So who else haven't get an opponent? Yama? Yama's lieutenant? Halibel? Baragan?
[hr]

Yay! Finally, some progress has been made and the first match-ups have been revealed. I think Hitsu + his lieutenant will fight Halibel's fraccion. Afterall, Hitsu is on par with 10th Espada :D

And yea, Shunsui + Ukitake vs. Stark (2 powerful captains) could very well mean Stark = #1
Hitsu on par with Yummy when he hadn't released. When he released, he own Luppy which is #6.

Shunsui + Ukitake vs Stark and Lilinett, not only Stark. Also Baragan hasn't pair with anyone yet. Get it? If Stark were #1, why would he fight before Baragan and Halibel?

xXAshisogiJizoXx
October 02, 2008, 03:19 PM
Hitzugaya isn't fighting hallibel. He's fighting her fraccion.

Yeah, well, how long do you expect the fraccion to last against captains; what should happen is that all of the fraccion get practically wiped out in a few chapters, then soi fon and hitsu will prolly have to fight the espada whose fraccion they killed don't ya think...(emphasis on the should, cuz most likely the fraccion will turn out to be really powerful opponents, although i hope that doesn't happen)
...thats not taking into equation however, those crazy vizards,...who nows what they'll do...their CRAZY! ...sry bout that

gold349
October 02, 2008, 03:27 PM
now I can say that I 'm real chuffed at the development in this chapter, I'm not going to brag about I was one of those (with many others) that had faith in kubo, said to have patients regarding the VC fight, that this is the calm before the storm, bang its the start of the storm, great, glad someone had a go at Ikkaku....wonder if the espada will go straight for the pillars and not mess about like Baragons fraccion?.

I'm not surprised that ukitake and shunsui have paired up to take stark and fraccion but does that signal he is number 1 espada?. The espada hierarchy is still not revealed, happy still as we get some espada showcasing..can't wait to see difference in vastro.

Starky-08
October 02, 2008, 03:34 PM
So who else haven't get an opponent? Yama? Yama's lieutenant? Halibel? Baragan?
<hr noshade size="1">

Hitsu on par with Yummy when he hadn't released. When he released, he own Luppy which is #6.

Shunsui + Ukitake vs Stark and Lilinett, not only Stark. Also Baragan hasn't pair with anyone yet. Get it? If Stark were #1, why would he fight before Baragan and Halibel?

Well maybe Stark wont fight yet, maybe Soifon and Hitsu will pwn the fraccion like Komamura then the other Espada pair up then it all begins but skips to Ulquiorra first I think that Shunsui and Ukitake vs Stark is indicating he's atleast 1 or 2.

Revan46
October 02, 2008, 03:48 PM
If Shunsui and Kyoraku are fighting both Stark and Lilinette I'm thinking he might only be number 2.
Soi Fon is facing Barragan's fraccion but I'm thinking he's only number three and that's also why his fraccion got beaten so easily.
I really think Halibel might be the top Espada, I think Kubo decided to not be sexist lol and make the female the top of the bad guys under Aizen. I think it would be cool to see Halibel as the strongest Espada. I mean consider this, she's constantly calm and collected, even when Yama releaed his zanpakuto Stark's eyes widened from surprise but Halibel was simply "whatever". Also even when Barragan "takes charge" her respect for Aizen could implicate she's number one. The only thing that dispels this theory of mine was when Lilinette was kicking Stark's butt for letting Barragan take the lead. Though then there's the case Halibel's fraccion were like "shut up" to Lilinette and they did. But like I said, there's still so much we have to wait. I'm assuming the next one to reveal their number will probably be number 3, then number 2, and then number 1 will be by process of elimination. But like some of the people said above, Hitsu and Rangiku are fighting Halibel's fraccion, not Halibel herself leaving her to just stand there bored once again. Why would Kubo make her stand at the sidelines for SOOOOOO long? Because she's the number 1 Espada.

Aonsaithya
October 02, 2008, 03:55 PM
I do not believe that Halibel is the number 1 Espada. I'm not a Noitora-esque male chauvinist, but I find it difficult to believe that Kubo would place the only woman in the Espada as the 1st, especially in shonen manga.
Evidence from Yama's shikai's effect on Stark and Lilinette kicking Stark and protesting about Barragan being in charge contradict.

Megaman84
October 02, 2008, 04:01 PM
The spoilers have got me excited again. We are in for a treat over the next few months hopefully. i just can't help holding resevervation that Kubo is going to cut to Ulquiorra and Ichigo before the captain/vc VS espada/fraccion ruckus. My thoughts are that surely he would conclude that before we see the SS guys going all out. My opinion is it would make no sense to see espada 1, 2, or 3 release before 4?

ryanzokuken
October 02, 2008, 04:08 PM
i'm not a sexist, but i wouldn't like Halibel to be number one. not only is she a woman, but all her fraccion are female too. a gang of chicks. the pussycat dolls.
that would be so lame for number one and entourage.

girl power doesn't fly with me, espescially when the girls are attractive.


maybe Stark's reaction to Yama's release is more proof to him being number one than against it.

Halibel may just have that calm personality all the time, most likely, nothing surprises her or wakes her up.

Stark's clarity and sense to recognize and respect huge power when he sees it, rather than staring blankly, like Halibel, or watching condescendingly like Barragan, could show that he's more fit to be the top dog.

gold349
October 02, 2008, 04:13 PM
Bragan still has 2 fracion left, nice to see mangirl coolhorn wasn't a mistake as I thought, that other girl fraccion that came with Braggon is around then, who is the remaining one..I'm sure he came with only 4? doesn't need a genius to work it out but that makes Baragon with 6 fraccion.

It's been a while since I've got excited about a chapter, after Ikkaku let the side down things have gone up a gear. Just need the vaizard to make an appearance and for kubo to throw in Ichigo dad somehow with Urahara and Yourichi and I'll be happy for ever.

ThaGreatOne
October 02, 2008, 04:18 PM
It is true that there are to many complainers, and many mange readers are a lil jaded, but i have to admit, kubo does put very little content-per-chapter as compared to other manga. I think a perfect example of what a manga chapter should be is the epic rurouni kenshin. In the time it takes me to read one RK chapter, i could easily have read 3-4 in bleach. also, fights seemed long and fulfilling in RK, and yet when you look back, the avg. 1v1 fight took an avg. of 2-3 chapters, including the "big" fights, whereas a big fight in bleach usually takes up 5-6 chapters, usually filled with monologues.

i must learn to stop my urges to rant, alas, i cannot help myself.

However, i like the way this chapter sounds, transition from little fights to big fight, with a dose of humor, a necassary chapter in my opinion

EXACTLY and as I remember certain Rurouni Kenshin chapters it makes the point more valid. Just because it is a complaint DOES NOT MEAN IT IS UNFOUNDED. There's no way you can believe that 10-15 pages on ikkaku not using his bankai (which we have already read about chapters ago with his convo with Renji) is good character development. You have learned nothing new about ikkaku because we already knew he wouldn't use bankai in the open. In this chapter that whole convo should take up 2 maybe 3 pages MAX. Bleach did use to have more content but this is "ikkaku's issues we already know about" talking, more talking, more talking, then face-off....Now tell me what character development occurs there? none...Naruto is killing bleach right now lol

xXAshisogiJizoXx
October 02, 2008, 04:27 PM
umm..baragan has 5 fraccion, the girl and coolhorne, who are alive, then po,findor,and abirama who were killed.

as for the espada rankings, i think when it comes to little things like this, Kubo tends to be pretty predictable
- Lazy guy is mad strong and thus the primero espada
- Nel is a chick, Halibel is a chick, Nel was tercera espada, Halibel is tercera espada
- Angry arrogant people are never number one, their often one away from the top spot which is why they are so angry, baragan = segundo espada
The reason why i think their rankings are a small matter is because their power levels are all prolly very similar to one another

Plus, it all too common in shonen manga that women are usually the "weakest of the strongest"...if they are even considered among the strongest...not that i care, men are better, cus girls go to venus, to get more stoopider...

Painpwns00
October 02, 2008, 04:35 PM
Stark and Halibel are my favorite i don't care about their order as long as both are either 1 or 2

next week is back to HM

Onomatopoeia
October 02, 2008, 04:59 PM
*Gets under Flame Retardant shield*

A few chapters ago and even before most people agree'd that whichever Espada fought first would be Espada Tres. So then now that Stark is fighting everyone's changed their mind and saying he's got to be Espada Uno. Can anyone say hypocrites?

And seriously despite what everyone says It's Stark+Lilinette vs a combined group who are in no way the strongest captain even when combined, Yamma beats them both.

ryanzokuken
October 02, 2008, 05:12 PM
umm..baragan has 5 fraccion, the girl and coolhorne, who are alive, then po,findor,and abirama who were killed.

as for the espada rankings, i think when it comes to little things like this, Kubo tends to be pretty predictable
- Lazy guy is mad strong and thus the primero espada
- Nel is a chick, Halibel is a chick, Nel was tercera espada, Halibel is tercera espada
- Angry arrogant people are never number one, their often one away from the top spot which is why they are so angry, baragan = segundo espada
The reason why i think their rankings are a small matter is because their power levels are all prolly very similar to one another

Plus, it all too common in shonen manga that women are usually the "weakest of the strongest"...if they are even considered among the strongest...not that i care, men are better, cus girls go to venus, to get more stoopider...

coolhorn is a gonner.

Painpwns00
October 02, 2008, 05:17 PM
*Gets under Flame Retardant shield*

A few chapters ago and even before most people agree'd that whichever Espada fought first would be Espada Tres. So then now that Stark is fighting everyone's changed their mind and saying he's got to be Espada Uno. Can anyone say hypocrites?

And seriously despite what everyone says It's Stark+Lilinette vs a combined group who are in no way the strongest captain even when combined, Yamma beats them both.

people are like that. the espada showed their numbers out of order, so the top three

1 or 2= stark and halibel:beer
3= old man espada:xp

Doombot
October 02, 2008, 05:22 PM
Shunsui and Ukitake vs. Stark and Lilinett

I think this will prove that Stark isn't the 1st Espada. I actually think they were going to wipe the floor with whoever they fought.

Hitsugaya and Rangiku vs. Halibel’s fraccions

Will a guy actually fight a girl in this series? Perhaps... but this is another match up the SS will win easily.

Soi Fong and Omaeda vs. Barragan’s remaining fraccions

2 of 6 left right? Well they will be dead soon.

Stark is probably 3rd because he is the first espada into battle of the top 3. Unless the spoilers aren't completely right. If Halibel and Barragan are with their fraccions then its still a toss up.

I see alot of people instantly position Barragan at 3rd but no reasons are being given besides they like Stark. Stark is being set up for failure for who he is fighting.

Painpwns00
October 02, 2008, 05:31 PM
Shunsui and Ukitake vs. Stark and Lilinett

I think this will prove that Stark isn't the 1st Espada. I actually think they were going to wipe the floor with whoever they fought.

Hitsugaya and Rangiku vs. Halibel’s fraccions

Will a guy actually fight a girl in this series? Perhaps... but this is another match up the SS will win easily.

Soi Fong and Omaeda vs. Barragan’s remaining fraccions

2 of 6 left right? Well they will be dead soon.

Stark is probably 3rd because he is the first espada into battle of the top 3. Unless the spoilers aren't completely right. If Halibel and Barragan are with their fraccions then its still a toss up.

I see alot of people instantly position Barragan at 3rd but no reasons are being given besides they like Stark. Stark is being set up for failure for who he is fighting.

espada fights are know for missmatches

Revan46
October 02, 2008, 05:32 PM
I concur with ryan, Yumichika used his full power shikai, as such Coolhorn is totally dead or won't be causing trouble anytime soon.

As for Halibel, I can't believe how you guys are all so sexist. I'm a guy too but even I believe women have intelligence more than we do.... The fact that all of you are saying all of this disgusts me. I will agree that it would still be fine that Stark is Uno, but Barragan is three for sure. I still say that just because Nel was Tercera doesn't mean that Halibel is too. But I'm not going to get into a stupid argument of male versus female >_>

As for this chapter, I don't really know what else to say besides what's already been said. I can't wait for the next when it gets really good I hope. Or it cuts back to Ichi and Ulqui with both relatively battered and bruised and Ulquiorra releases.

Painpwns00
October 02, 2008, 05:37 PM
I concur with ryan, Yumichika used his full power shikai, as such Coolhorn is totally dead or won't be causing trouble anytime soon.

As for Halibel, I can't believe how you guys are all so sexist. I'm a guy too but even I believe women have intelligence more than we do.... The fact that all of you are saying all of this disgusts me. I will agree that it would still be fine that Stark is Uno, but Barragan is three for sure. I still say that just because Nel was Tercera doesn't mean that Halibel is too. But I'm not going to get into a stupid argument of male versus female >_>

As for this chapter, I don't really know what else to say besides what's already been said. I can't wait for the next when it gets really good I hope. Or it cuts back to Ichi and Ulqui with both relatively battered and bruised and Ulquiorra releases.

agreed, do you remember when the espada first showed up how they were ranked most people put halibel at the bottom along with stark

xXAshisogiJizoXx
October 02, 2008, 05:42 PM
as for whether or not coolhorne is one of the two remaining i guess we'll just have to wait and find out

as for the whole male vs female thing on my part, that whole girls-go-to-venus-to-get-more-stoopider thing was a joke, kind of playing on the fact that i mixed it up. i was just pointing out tendencies within shonen manga and how they treat female characters, as were most other people (granted those tendencies exist because most shonen readers are younger, thus immature, and thus more inclined to say "boys are better, yada-yada-yada")

Doombot
October 02, 2008, 05:50 PM
I think that Barragan is 1, Halibel is 2 and Stark is 3. Arrogance does not mean that you are weak. Sometimes it is the case but Stark and Halibel has given me no evidence that they could be the leader. Barragan, at least, took control of the situation.

Of course I could be wrong but this isn't about who do I like the most or who is the coolest just trying to base this on how the Espada have been reacting.

hajialibaig
October 02, 2008, 06:05 PM
Will a guy actually fight a girl in this series?



Ah..? Didn't Rukia already fight a bunch of guys? :huh

Anyway, I don't mind any of the Espada being whatever number, as long as they wipe the floor with the captains (for a change). The good guys have won every single fight so far, so their defeat is long overdue.

samlovesclau
October 02, 2008, 06:06 PM
I say this chapter proves that stark is #1

My reasons behind it are the fact that shunsui asked ukitake when they first saw them "who do you think is the strongest?" and ukitake said "it is hard to tell", maybe they were given orders to engage on the strongest espada while the rest deal with the others.

Then again i don't know why yamamoto wouldnt deal with primera espada.

ryanzokuken
October 02, 2008, 06:19 PM
Stark fighting now while Halibel and Barragan aren't fighting yet doesn't imply that he's a lower number.


it's only because he has a single fraccion.

if Halibel or Barragan had one fraccion, they'd be engaging in battle right now two, but they have fraccion who will throw their lives away for their surperior first.

also, Stark is the only espada faced with TWO captains. and not just two captains, but the BEST two, after Yama.

and also, Hitsu and Soi Fon will be fighting fraccion first, but no doubt they'll dispense their fraccion opponents quite quickly, and then begin fighting the corresponding espada.

Hockeychaoz
October 02, 2008, 06:32 PM
As weak as he seems, he's only really win over Hinamori so far.

Oh?

He beat Gin. If Gin wouldn't have attacked Hinamori, he would have been headless. Gin actually retreated.

He beat Shawlong.

He beat Luppi. (6th espada)

He lost to Aizen. A.k.a. the guy no one can kill.

So yeah, he's beat more than Hinamori so far.

The Adamant Dragon
October 02, 2008, 06:37 PM
Finally... my second favorite character Shunshui will reveal his powers. The assumed strongest Captains in SS ( Utikitake and Shunshui ) are about to reveal their might. If Stark happens to be #1, then those two and Yamamoto are the Only ones amoung the Captains able defeat him. Kubo knows how much fans will be exited to see them fight, so he'll probably head to HM as a cliffhanger to make his fans even more hooked and eager to see the manga, imho

So we might see the Vizards and Ichigo-Ulquiorra next chapter...

Right now, the #1 Ban-Kai I want to see is Yamamoto's. If only his shikai his that impressive, makes you wonder just how strong the old man is... Don't know who he'll fight, but I Doubt he'll be brought to his knees. As SS' General, I wouldn't expect less from him, yet again, if Aizen defeats/kills him, it'll show how much more of a threat Aizen really is.

ryanzokuken
October 02, 2008, 06:52 PM
Oh?

He beat Gin. If Gin wouldn't have attacked Hinamori, he would have been headless. Gin actually retreated.

He beat Shawlong.

He beat Luppi. (6th espada)

He lost to Aizen. A.k.a. the guy no one can kill.

So yeah, he's beat more than Hinamori so far.


he fought fiercely the whole time, while Gin wasn't even taking him seriously, let alone getting serious himself. he went shikai and froze Gin's arm. that is the only leverage he gained at all.

now, let's reflect on ice in bleach for a moment.

freezing people has been successful once, ever. D-Roy.
Shawlong doesn't count as a freeze-death, as he was also melee attacked with a sword as he was frozen.

Yammy broke out of being frozen with ease and laughed at Hitsugaya.
Grimmjow broke out of being frozen and nearly blew Rukia's head off.
Luppi had many ice pillars converge on him, "crushing" and freezing him, after Hitsugaya spent 15 minutes setting up the attack, and that still failed.


Gin's frozen arm was no detriment to him whatsoever.

he got serious for an instant and used his shikai. he wasn't being low and targetting Momo for leverage, he was aiming at Hitsu and he dodged, THEN Gin said something about Momo in the path of the blade.

Hitsugaya did NOT defeat Gin. nor did he ever even have an upper hand. Gin only "retreated" (left, very slowly and calmly;)) because Rangiku came and he didn't want to continue fighting and harm her. also, Gin's job was to cast suspiscion on himself to keep people from thinking about Aizen, and to attempt to get some of the opposition to take each other out to save Aizen and himself the trouble later on. (Hitsu and Momo). if Gin had actually tried, and defeated/killed Hitsugaya, it probably would have ruined the whole plan. after killing a captain right in the open, Gin would have become public enemy number one, even over the ryoka. a captain killing captain, a traitor. the other captains would have come after him to capture or kill him, throwing a big wrench in Aizen's plans. Gin merely did the job he was supposed to.

Hitsu did NOT beat Luppi. not only did Luppi live, but he also wasn't harmed by the attack. the negacion shattered the ice off him and he was perfectly fine.

the only person he outright beat was Shawlong.

Revan46
October 02, 2008, 06:57 PM
I would state something about girls in shonen but that would get off topic (just think Sakura and how she is now in Shippuuden ^_^).

I still am curious exactly what Kyoraku's powers are. And oddly, same with Oomaeda, he was pretty much knocked unconscious before he could even use his zanpakuto's shikai powers...

Raizen
October 02, 2008, 07:02 PM
OMFG. WOOOOWWW.
If stark is taking on both shunsui and ukitake, then he just got to be number 1. These 2 captains were praised as unreachable by their peers by yama himself. I see stark's fraccion getting completely destroyed hahaha
Also, maybe starks battle will be the last, thus he is number 1. After all, the author usually put the battles w/ the coolest characters last
[hr]

he fought fiercely the whole time, while Gin wasn't even taking him seriously, let alone getting serious himself. he went shikai and froze Gin's arm. that is the only leverage he gained at all.

now, let's reflect on ice in bleach for a moment.

freezing people has been successful once, ever. D-Roy.
Shawlong doesn't count as a freeze-death, as he was also melee attacked with a sword as he was frozen.

Yammy broke out of being frozen with ease and laughed at Hitsugaya.
Grimmjow broke out of being frozen and nearly blew Rukia's head off.
Luppi had many ice pillars converge on him, "crushing" and freezing him, after Hitsugaya spent 15 minutes setting up the attack, and that still failed.


Gin's frozen arm was no detriment to him whatsoever.

he got serious for an instant and used his shikai. he wasn't being low and targetting Momo for leverage, he was aiming at Hitsu and he dodged, THEN Gin said something about Momo in the path of the blade.

Hitsugaya did NOT defeat Gin. nor did he ever even have an upper hand. Gin only "retreated" (left, very slowly and calmly;)) because Rangiku came and he didn't want to continue fighting and harm her. also, Gin's job was to cast suspiscion on himself to keep people from thinking about Aizen, and to attempt to get some of the opposition to take each other out to save Aizen and himself the trouble later on. (Hitsu and Momo). if Gin had actually tried, and defeated/killed Hitsugaya, it probably would have ruined the whole plan. after killing a captain right in the open, Gin would have become public enemy number one, even over the ryoka. a captain killing captain, a traitor. the other captains would have come after him to capture or kill him, throwing a big wrench in Aizen's plans. Gin merely did the job he was supposed to.

Hitsu did NOT beat Luppi. not only did Luppi live, but he also wasn't harmed by the attack. the negacion shattered the ice off him and he was perfectly fine.

the only person he outright beat was Shawlong.
Luppi would have died had it not been for the negaccion beam. That was the only way he would have gotten out. I don't think u are giving hitsu much credit.
Gin is never serious, he is as sarcastic as they come. SO him seeming calm means nothing.

As for yammi, hitsu didn't even release bankai yet. The only shinigami seen to toy with yammi is urahara, but urahara is hella strong

xXAshisogiJizoXx
October 02, 2008, 07:50 PM
I would state something about girls in shonen but that would get off topic (just think Sakura and how she is now in Shippuuden ^_^).

I still am curious exactly what Kyoraku's powers are. And oddly, same with Oomaeda, he was pretty much knocked unconscious before he could even use his zanpakuto's shikai powers...

I would state that sakura is prolly the weakest of team 10, but that might be a lil off topic :p

but i wouldn't bet on omaeda's shikai being anything other then what it is, a ball and chain. look at past chain weapons, ikkaku and hisagi, neither of their zanpakto's had powers, and both of them are far stronger then omaeda. having a chain alone makes it pretty dangerous (for proof, see hisagi's fight and ikkaku vs ichi)

Onomatopoeia
October 02, 2008, 08:26 PM
Yoruichi/Soifong had to run away from a Negacion beam for fear of getting killed. Negaccion Beams are like Insta-kill if you get touched by it. The strongest captains only watched as Aizen and Co. escaped using them, Negaccion beams can't be broken. If Luppi didn't get freed from that Negaccion then that would mean Hitsugaya>Yamma and we all know thats not true. And Gin did lose, please people what proof do you have that Gin was holding back? I like him but he lost, retreating=losing.

Stark's fighting Shunsui and Ukitake with the help of his Fraccion which leads me to believe that Stark and Lilinette form a perfect tag team like SHunsui and Ukitake. Not only that but Yamma is still stronger then both of the Captains combined so Stark fighting the second strongest group does not point to him in anyway being No.1

ryanzokuken
October 02, 2008, 08:34 PM
he didn't RETREAT. he WALKED away because he didn't want to keep fighting after RANGIKU showed up. he didn't want to harm her.

proof that he was holding back? how about not using his shikai until the very last attack of the fight. how about fighting Hitsugaya with a smile one his face and his eyes closed for most of the fight and then asking just before Hitsu went shikai "you're actually serious, aren't you?"

he was playing around the whole time.

do you honestly think one of the main 3 villains, probably the second strongest, would be defeated by most likely the weakest captain of the gotei 13?


also, it's basically a general rule throughout bleach. those who have revealed their bankai already are weaker than those who have not.

Raizen
October 02, 2008, 08:38 PM
Yoruichi/Soifong had to run away from a Negacion beam for fear of getting killed. Negaccion Beams are like Insta-kill if you get touched by it. The strongest captains only watched as Aizen and Co. escaped using them, Negaccion beams can't be broken. If Luppi didn't get freed from that Negaccion then that would mean Hitsugaya>Yamma and we all know thats not true. And Gin did lose, please people what proof do you have that Gin was holding back? I like him but he lost, retreating=losing.

Stark's fighting Shunsui and Ukitake with the help of his Fraccion which leads me to believe that Stark and Lilinette form a perfect tag team like SHunsui and Ukitake. Not only that but Yamma is still stronger then both of the Captains combined so Stark fighting the second strongest group does not point to him in anyway being No.1
Yama is was crazy and was set on punishment. Shunsui and ukitake were hesitant. They didn't want to fight. SO i doubt they were fighting with the intent to kill. Most likely they were just fighting on a level in which they would be able to survive while trying to talk some sense into yama. Meaning they were not fighting at their Max

darkking2001
October 02, 2008, 08:41 PM
coolhorn is a gonner.

Coolhorn was spared as there was no evidence that he was killed but there's no evidence he's alive. Moving on isn't Gin aizen's right hand man wouldn't that make him the second strongest villian. Hitsu had to go all out in most of his fights. Beating Luppi isn't all that great he got owned by Grimmjow in 2 hits.

Raizen
October 02, 2008, 08:44 PM
No one is saying hitsu is stronger than gin. Wat I am saying is that u guys are underestimating him too much. He beat the 6th espada and got the advantage on gin while in shikai

darkking2001
October 02, 2008, 08:48 PM
Luppi was pretty weak he got owned by Grimmjow like nothing. Also he caught Luppi off guard to bgin with Luppi was plain usless.

xXAshisogiJizoXx
October 02, 2008, 08:50 PM
In terms of shunsui n ukitake's strength, i agree with raizen, i think its quite obvious that kubo is implying that yama is on his own teir followed by the dynamic duo (and prolly unohana as well)

As for Hitsu's strength, its not an insult to say someone his age is the weakest cpt., for his age he's incredibly strong. saying that he is the weakest, doesn't say that he is weak per se either. I dont beleive gin to be one of the strongest villains, in terms of power i always saw him as slightly above avg cpt., thas it, but i do beleive he was in control of the fight between him and hitsu, and retreat is definetly the wrong word, he walked away. so technically, nobody won, but i believe he had the upper hand.

perhaps the overblown bashing of hitsu spwns from some of his diehard fanboys who obsess over him and his "awesomeness"...nature is balance. someone says a character is stronger then he actually is, then someone else says that he is weaker then he actually is.

farseerdk
October 02, 2008, 11:36 PM
about this whole gin vs hitsugaya thing, whoever won the shikai fight is irrelevant.

To test a captain's true strength, we need to see bankai vs. bankai.

For example, Ichigo's bankai makes him faster and stronger than this shikai release, but has the same basic ability. Byakuya, on the other hand, has bankai release that is MUCH stronger than his shikai release. We don't know who would have won had Gin and Hitsugaya had both released bankai.

I'm of the opinion that Gin is stronger than hitsugaya (for plot's sake), but I think that gin WAS losing the shikai vs. shikai fight.

And the thousand years ice prison would probably have killed luppi eventually. He probably couldn't have broken out (or he would have already). He was fine because of the espada steel skin, but who the hell can breath while frozen? Leave him frozen long enough and he'll die anyway.

Regardless, it seems like he was weakened by the ice somehow anyway (one shotted by a recently healed grimjow).

no_regretsYSL
October 02, 2008, 11:36 PM
So honestly though...where is Yami anyway?:notrust

jmq07
October 02, 2008, 11:41 PM
shunsui and ukitake already??? man, i hoped they would be later... and against stark too...
i just find it cool how someone doesn't act his strength and just pwns everyone when cornered and forced. hehe
i mean, better get the others fight first... and who will halibel get to spar with???

as for their order, barragan shuold be number three(that's what i believe) especially after he assumed to give orders after aizen, gin and tousen got engulfed with yama-ji's flame. That's because weaker guys tend to talk big pretty much. just said weaker considering the top three espada... but u can never be sure, right? for all we know, it could be halibel #1 barragan 2 and stark 3... ^^

King Mordred
October 03, 2008, 12:25 AM
Its been shown that Kubo pushes characters people dislike. Hence the new Bleach movie with Rukia the main character, I dont see anyone here going to rush out and see it save for a few here and there. Were it Ichigo or any of the bleach guys there'd be all over it. Where does that leave us, Barragan is 1. I'll explain why. The guys are all over Stark so they think he's one. The girls love Halibel so she must be 1. I barely see any rooting for the old guy, why because he is old? He has a throne made of bones, its been hinted he's the king so he could be the Espada king or whatever. It doesnt matter who Stark is fighting it could just show the strength of number 3 have you thought of that?

eddy26
October 03, 2008, 12:33 AM
I'm so glad that the battles are beginning but I don't know why people are saying that Shunsui and Ukitake are the second strongest captains. From the small clues we've gotten throughout Bleach Unohana is the 2 strongest captain. Shunsui and Ukitake are stronger than the other captains but when I think about the top captains I got them ranked:

1. Yamamoto
2. Unohana
3. Shunsui
4. Ukitake

The only reason I put Shunsui ahead of Ukitake is because Ukitake is kind of sickly so that makes him a liability. I think all questions regarding Hitsugaya are going to be answered when Rangiku and him fight the fraccion. They are outnumbered 3 to 2 so Hitsugaya has the chance to show that he has gotten stronger. If both of them get injured badly when they fight the fraccion then there will be a reason to call him weak. As far as Baragan not having an opponent all signs point to him fighting Yamamoto. Both of them have been giving each other dirty looks.
I agree with what people are saying that next chapter we are going to be sent back to Hueco Mundo. Kubo might show the trapped captains and what they are doing or show how Rukia and company are doing against the Exequias or start the battle of Ulquiorra vs. Ichigo.

ascalon
October 03, 2008, 12:55 AM
I'm so glad that the battles are beginning but I don't know why people are saying that Shunsui and Ukitake are the second strongest captains. From the small clues we've gotten throughout Bleach Unohana is the 2 strongest captain. Shunsui and Ukitake are stronger than the other captains but when I think about the top captains I got them ranked:

1. Yamamoto
2. Unohana
3. Shunsui
4. Ukitake

The only reason I put Shunsui ahead of Ukitake is because Ukitake is kind of sickly so that makes him a liability. I think all questions regarding Hitsugaya are going to be answered when Rangiku and him fight the fraccion. They are outnumbered 3 to 2 so Hitsugaya has the chance to show that he has gotten stronger. If both of them get injured badly when they fight the fraccion then there will be a reason to call him weak. As far as Baragan not having an opponent all signs point to him fighting Yamamoto. Both of them have been giving each other dirty looks.
I agree with what people are saying that next chapter we are going to be sent back to Hueco Mundo. Kubo might show the trapped captains and what they are doing or show how Rukia and company are doing against the Exequias or start the battle of Ulquiorra vs. Ichigo.

On the contrary, there is NOTHING in the manga that directly says OR suggests that Unohana is that strong, compared to Ukitake and Shunsui who were overtly proclaimed to be the two strongest captains in soul society in the manga. Show me the evidence...
[hr]

Its been shown that Kubo pushes characters people dislike. Hence the new Bleach movie with Rukia the main character, I dont see anyone here going to rush out and see it save for a few here and there. Were it Ichigo or any of the bleach guys there'd be all over it. Where does that leave us, Barragan is 1. I'll explain why. The guys are all over Stark so they think he's one. The girls love Halibel so she must be 1. I barely see any rooting for the old guy, why because he is old? He has a throne made of bones, its been hinted he's the king so he could be the Espada king or whatever. It doesnt matter who Stark is fighting it could just show the strength of number 3 have you thought of that?

Barragan is obviously the top Espada. The people who say otherwise are just bias to the other Espada.

Revan46
October 03, 2008, 12:58 AM
Proof: Unohanahttp://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g264/ichigowife/Bleach%20Photos/UNONHANAPWER.jpg
Kyorakuhttp://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g264/ichigowife/Bleach%20Photos/KYOURAKUPWERGRAPHjpg.jpg
Ukitakehttp://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g264/ichigowife/Bleach%20Photos/ukitakepowergraphjpg.jpg

Perhaps Kyoraku is higher than Unohana somewhat, but Ukitake is still not as powerful as her.

Now can we get back to discussing this chapter? I think that Soi Fon is only fighting Barragan's fraccion because she was challenged by one of them. But I still believe Soi Fon is one of the weaker Captains in the Gotei 13.

eddy26
October 03, 2008, 01:25 AM
On the contrary, there is NOTHING in the manga that directly says OR suggests that Unohana is that strong, compared to Ukitake and Shunsui who were overtly proclaimed to be the two strongest captains in soul society in the manga. Show me the evidence...
<hr noshade size="1">


Barragan is obviously the top Espada. The people who say otherwise are just bias to the other Espada.

Look at the TBTP when Shunsui is talking to Hirako and says that Ukitake, Yamamoto, and himself are the only remaining captains of the original guard. When Ukitake reminds him that he forgot Unohana Shunsui freaks out even says he doesn't want to get on her bad side. The point is that I wouldn't rank Stark as the number one espada yet just because Ukitake and Shunsui are fighting him. I'm really leaning towards Halibel being espada 1 it'll be interesting when she does fight which captain she will fight.
Chances are with the matchups set up so far the first fight Kubo is going to focus on is Soifon. It's cause of her that everyone made a move. I just hope Kubo skips her VC fighting that guy's zanpaktou is lame and out of all the shinigami there I wouldn't mind seeing him die.
The one thing that confuses me about this chapter is Komamura and Iba. Iba gave Ikkaku the tongue lashing he deserves but is Iba ever going to fight? What is Komamura going to do just wait there with the pillar protectors? Is he the backup in case one of the captains is getting their butts whipped he has to go and save the day.

Darek Khort
October 03, 2008, 01:36 AM
Koma will wait for the fire to go down and then attack Tousen.
Hmm...or perhaps even though the espada + fraccion are fighting the captains + VCs could it be that they are all aiming for the pillars at the same time? (just that the captains +VCs are stopping them).
A few cero's might be aimed at the pillars and Koma will do a little Defender stopping those attacks.
I really hope it isn't going to be a *kill all espadas and fraccion*, then have Yama go "only Aizen, Tousen and Gin left"; then having Aizen go "olol. The espada lost. Time for the VLs whilst I sit here in a lvl 99 firewall".
And then the VLs somehow die, probably from the Vizards and Aizen goes "olol. VLs gone. Time to pwn."

EnzeruExMachina
October 03, 2008, 02:13 AM
My guess is... It'll be Unohana vs. Halibel. And that, my friends, excites me to no end. Who doesn't love a good girl fight!? xD

Askia32
October 03, 2008, 02:17 AM
Stupid question, but...

Where is the link to the chapter?

ojn
October 03, 2008, 03:08 AM
The chapter can be found here:
http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40339

EmbodiedDespair
October 03, 2008, 03:20 AM
Proof: Unohanahttp://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g264/ichigowife/Bleach%20Photos/UNONHANAPWER.jpg
Kyorakuhttp://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g264/ichigowife/Bleach%20Photos/KYOURAKUPWERGRAPHjpg.jpg
Ukitakehttp://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g264/ichigowife/Bleach%20Photos/ukitakepowergraphjpg.jpg

Perhaps Kyoraku is higher than Unohana somewhat, but Ukitake is still not as powerful as her.

Now can we get back to discussing this chapter? I think that Soi Fon is only fighting Barragan's fraccion because she was challenged by one of them. But I still believe Soi Fon is one of the weaker Captains in the Gotei 13.

What do each of the 6 respective statistics on the lower left stand for?

vintagemistakes
October 03, 2008, 03:32 AM
What do each of the 6 respective statistics on the lower left stand for?
clockwise direction... Power,Defense,Mobility,Kidou/Reiatsu,Wisdom, Stamina

for instance.. Unohanas stats are as the following;

Power: 100
Defense: 80
Mobility: 70
Kidou/Reiatsu: 100
Wisdom: 100
Stamina: 90

complete captains list can be found here (http://forum.onemanga.com/showthread.php?t=22615)

Darek Khort
October 03, 2008, 04:00 AM
Ouch, punch to the eye. Ikakku got it good.
Seriously though, Ikkaku has let me down big time. Koma's great though.

OMG Barragan's other fraccion (besides the guy we saw originally) is....Coolhorn's brother! look at eyelashes and lipstick-lips!!!! The other fraccion (that we've seen before) looks nice. Too bad he's a guy...I think. :<

Stark and Lilinnete are such a cute pair. Stark and his casual atmosphere is awesome.
I predict Kyoraku and Stark sitting down and having a few drinks.

Awww and Koma looks so cute when he pricks his ears. *,*

omimon
October 03, 2008, 04:21 AM
I personally think that there is prove that Stark is at least higher than Barragan. At the bottom of this page http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/318/12/ Barragan told Stark that he better not of a problem with him giving out orders. Now what got me thinking he why he needed to make sure Stark didn't complain, if Barragan is truly #1 then he shouldn't need anyone's comments about how he is doing things.

En Yang Ji
October 03, 2008, 04:52 AM
It could be that Barragan is #2 and Stark is #3. Barragan may make rash decisions because of his arrogance and Halibel being #1 simply doesn't care. So it may fall on Stark to make sure Barragan doesn't do anything too rash.

Or

It could be that Stark actually is #2 and Barragan is #3. It doesn't seem like there's really anything indicating which is which at the moment. Any of them could possibly be #1

Masaki195
October 03, 2008, 05:10 AM
My guess is... It'll be Unohana vs. Halibel. And that, my friends, excites me to no end. Who doesn't love a good girl fight!? xD

How is Unohana going to get out of Hueco Mundo? If I can remember Aizan lock Ichigo and his crew in there. I know Urahara is going to get them out, but not anytime soon.

I can't wait to see Hitsugaya and Matsumoto kick some ass. I knew Toshiro was not going to fight one of the three Espada, because he is not strong enough.

Shunsui and Ukitake vs Stark and Lilinette is going to be amazing!

Yans86
October 03, 2008, 05:26 AM
Lilinette won't fight against Shunsui and Ukitake,he/she tried to step in but Stark took her back!!!!the others VC and Koma r going to come back to join the fight,but n the end next chapter is going to be HM.Moreover,Kubo is going to finish all the storyline in HM before coming to KK town....

Masaki195
October 03, 2008, 05:40 AM
I know that Tite Kubo is going to go back to damn Ichigo fight first. I would like to see Ulquiorra fight, but I could care unless about Ichigo.

Omi_XII
October 03, 2008, 07:22 AM
Eh. I've lost interest in this whole Who's number 1 thing now... It goes on too much.

Good chapter. It was real interesting to get things set up, and my prediction of who would fight who, although somewhat right,was pretty off. I like that.

Anyways, I'm a firm believer that Wonderweiss will be the strongest of the Espada. He's just too Innocent, and childish, it makes me amazingly suspicious..Plus, he was the last to be created out of all the Arrancar, and wasn't Aizen only looking for Vastolords after the initial 10 Espada being collected, hence why he sent NEll and Noitra out to search for them? Maybe he's what they found? Who knows. Also, Wonderweiss doesn't seem to have been given a number either, perhaps indicating his higher level over the Espada.

I dunno, there's just something sinister about him, even how he lunged at Urahara. I think there's alot more to him than meets the eye... Oh, I suppose one thing that would back this up is that it's pretty unusual not to have the main character facing off against one of the arc's main villain characters ( Ichigo V.S. Byakuya, who was somewhat the 'guy to beat' before Aizen stood up) and Wonderweiss is still in Hueco Mundo as far as I'm aware.

ShaunMati1
October 03, 2008, 09:27 AM
I also hope wonderweiss is crazy strong. But the reason he acts so childish is because well I remember Aizen and co. said arrancar always act like a child once created. I really do hope that we go back to HM. The way this chapter ended was the same way we last saw ichigo and ulquiorra end.
That was set up right before we left HM and im sure we are going back/

gold349
October 03, 2008, 10:03 AM
nice set up, funny seeing Lilnette trying to stand in front of stark. I am not fussed as to who is number 1 espada now..as long as there's good battles and nice story to them that's good for me.

ryanzokuken
October 03, 2008, 10:16 AM
woooo :D

definitely can't wait to see Shunsui and Ukitake fight for real.
and Soi Fon, ready to see her kick some ass as well. i love her.:p

ThaGreatOne
October 03, 2008, 10:26 AM
Ah..? Didn't Rukia already fight a bunch of guys? :huh

Anyway, I don't mind any of the Espada being whatever number, as long as they wipe the floor with the captains (for a change). The good guys have won every single fight so far, so their defeat is long overdue.

um Ikkaku just had his a$$ handed to him and more than half of the latest chapter was spent on it. Kubo sure does draw out things that could easily be put within 1-2 pages and still not feel rushed. Seriously though the fraccion have to be dealt with (more delay and drawing out) then we can get to the captains losing and viazard showing up.

Starky-08
October 03, 2008, 11:13 AM
Any of the three could be the 1st, I want Stark to be however it could be any of them, and I predict it's Halibel(Despite what many of you say, just because many Shonen manga's never have females the strongest, dosn't mean she can't)
I kinda hope it goes back to Ichigo and Ulquiorra I wanna see his abilities.

kkck
October 03, 2008, 01:07 PM
I think we will see more of ikkaku in the next couple of chapters. He is beat down and probably has little strenth left, but I really believe that iba's words got to him. I think he going to see everyone fight, feel a lot of shame for himself and scream "bankai!!!!" and surprise everyone while taking out a fraction or two. I would hate to see ikkaku being a liability in thsi fight rather than the awesome fighter he usually is.
Other than that, I want to see captains getting their asses handed to them and release their bankai.

Onomatopoeia
October 03, 2008, 01:55 PM
Lilinette looks like Sonic to me for some reason. I want her to be Espada Numero and Stark to be her Fraccion, that would be badass.

That said it seems Barragan has more Fraccion and it wasn't just a mistake. Speaking of Barragan his panel was so awesome, him getting up looked great. I'd hate to get him to fight... and did you see how scared they got when he was getting up?

I wonder if Barragan's fraccion will fight equally at all with Soifong if she does then thats bad news... but if Soi Fong pulls out Bankai and wrecks her then it's pretty normal.

hajialibaig
October 03, 2008, 02:20 PM
um Ikkaku just had his a$$ handed to him and more than half of the latest chapter was spent on it.


What? Po was the one who got his a$$ handed back to him and Ikkaku is still standing as far as everyone knows.

So yea, that's another win for the good guys, the pillar didn't do anything, they were able to hold it.


Anyway, looks like Stark is gonna fight first out from the top 3 Espada. So according to the, who-ever-fights-first-is-weakest cliche, Stark is #3 :D

And since Yamamoto > Shunsui + Ukitake, whoever ends up fighting Yamamoto from the Espada will have to be the strongest

xXAshisogiJizoXx
October 03, 2008, 02:24 PM
lol, looks like i was wrong, their was a sixth fraccion.

Anyways, i liked this chapter, even though thta whole conversation was drawn out a little, it gave us some Iba development, who to me, is more interesting then Kira with his emoness, and ikkaku and yumi, who we all know very well. Definetly not as interesting as hisagi though. Fingers crossed for next chapter to switch to HM, hopefully spend no more then 1 chapter checking up on the cpts, 2-3 for rukia and co vs exequias, then we get to ichi vs ulqi (the latter two being mixed together for some diversity)

however, i would like it if their was some sort of twist in HM, sumthin like a civil war amongst the hollows, with the rebels led by neliel and siding with the shinigami vs the aizen loyalists. only thing is that sumthin like that would take up a lot of time, and i think everybody wants to get this KK standoff over with...just speculating

onno
October 03, 2008, 02:30 PM
that battle that is about to begin will be definelly great.

but i'm missing the vaaizards.

akatsuki27
October 03, 2008, 02:31 PM
What? Po was the one who got his a$$ handed back to him and Ikkaku is still standing as far as everyone knows.

So yea, that's another win for the good guys, the pillar didn't do anything, they were able to hold it.


Anyway, looks like Stark is gonna fight first out from the top 3 Espada. So according to the, who-ever-fights-first-is-weakest cliche, Stark is #3 :D

And since Yamamoto > Shunsui + Ukitake, whoever ends up fighting Yamamoto from the Espada will have to be the strongest

it didnt look to me like stark was preparing to fight agaisnt uki and shunsui....it looked like he was stopping lilinett from fighting...which in turn will probably lead him to fight but that's not his intention it seems

hajialibaig
October 03, 2008, 02:47 PM
it didnt look to me like stark was preparing to fight agaisnt uki and shunsui....it looked like he was stopping lilinett from fighting...which in turn will probably lead him to fight but that's not his intention it seems

True. I wonder how strong Lilinett is though. First thoughts indicate she must be on on par with Baragan's other 4 fraccion, just like any other fraccion. If that is the case, then she'll get pwned against Shunsui

akatsuki27
October 03, 2008, 03:15 PM
she WILL get owned, that's probably why he'll decide to fight for her but she'll probably kick him in the shin and go fight...i liked how soi fon got things started for SS, thats why i like her, she doesnt give a shit who it is, she'll f-up anybody for SS

Eye of the tiger
October 03, 2008, 03:43 PM
So we can safely assume that this fight will go on till summer '09.. each pair fights.. talks.. release one by one.. there goes 4 chapters per fighter pair at least.. so 3 espada, ~8 fraccion left.. 11 months!!!!! but its all cool.. can't wait for the espada releases though!

Doombot
October 03, 2008, 03:53 PM
True. I wonder how strong Lilinett is though. First thoughts indicate she must be on on par with Baragan's other 4 fraccion, just like any other fraccion. If that is the case, then she'll get pwned against Shunsui

Since no fraccion is Espada level and Shunsui can beat probably even the 3rd and 2nd Espada (imo) then yes it's going to be a slaughter.

Raizen
October 03, 2008, 04:27 PM
Soifon better destroy that cocky ass bitch of a fraccion. I don't get why people consider her weak. She is at least stronger than koma. I mean her shikai is a 2 hit kill and she is speedy as hell. Just wait to see what her bankai is. She should destroy that fraccion quickly and attack the espada.

As for hitsu, he better mess up those big boob fraccions. I really hope he doesn't have much trouble with them.

As for Starks vs my favorite captains, I don't get why people assume he is going to fight first. If anything the fight between them will be last since the author love postponing the most anticipated fights.

Overall, the chapter was badass. Much better than the previous ones. Just thinking of the unknown bankais are killing me lol

hajialibaig
October 03, 2008, 05:06 PM
Vaizards might pop-in anytime too, but for some reason I think Kubo will delay that till after the Captains vs. Espada fights are finished.. there is already too many pair fights going on and everybody is busy with their opponents..

Reliic
October 03, 2008, 05:25 PM
Finally someone with balls kicks off this fight, you gotta love Soi Fong!!!!!!!!!!!!!

◆ T.D.A ◆
October 03, 2008, 06:24 PM
Yes we finally get down to the major stuff. I'm looking forward to Baragan vs Yamamoto.

Andonan
October 03, 2008, 07:24 PM
Oh yeah so saw the Ukitake Flower Guy vs Stark coming, also I'm getting the feeling that Old Man Espada is number one and not Stark

En Yang Ji
October 03, 2008, 07:30 PM
I think Stark is #2 or #3. This would explain Aizen's confidence in the top 3 Espada. If Stark can match both Ukitake and Shunsui and is not #1, than #1 may be at Yammato's level. Also this would make things more interesting. Aizen forces could have an overwhelming advantage over SS, assuming that Tousen, Gin and Aizen are stronger than top 3 Espada.

xXAshisogiJizoXx
October 03, 2008, 08:15 PM
I think it would be best for the series that in the fight for fake KK, kubo should really condense his chapters in order to get all of the fraccion out of the way (and thus getting some of the Lts out of the way who will, of course, not die, but at least be too tired to continue). even then, the shear number of fraccion mean that it would still take like a good two months. Or at least sort of rush through them, then have the anime elaborate on them. I know this has been done to a lesser extent with some other fights in the series. Cuz a). a lot of people enjoy the manga for plot, and the anime for fights anyway so, and b). the anime will get on top of the manga again in a few weeks time anyways
Then we got HM stuff, battle at the five pillars, and WTF DID KUROTSUCHI FIND, and most importantly, how does kenpachi react to a baby arrancar and half-dead espada (raise ur hand if you COMPLETELY forgot about grimm *raises hand) a character like grimmjow definetly needs a better end if he has no more relevance to the story, so he's gotta do sumthin. i also think that yammy and wonderweiss are definetly up to sumthin under aizen's orders, however, at the same time i dont think either has the..uh...mental capacity to efficiently follow orders so...yeah...idk

Raizen
October 03, 2008, 09:19 PM
I think Stark is #2 or #3. This would explain Aizen's confidence in the top 3 Espada. If Stark can match both Ukitake and Shunsui and is not #1, than #1 may be at Yammato's level. Also this would make things more interesting. Aizen forces could have an overwhelming advantage over SS, assuming that Tousen, Gin and Aizen are stronger than top 3 Espada.
If the espadas are as strong as u say, I don't see gin or tousen being that strong. We are assuming that they have hollow powers too. I mean gin and tousen w/ just shinigami powers were average captains, w/ hollow powers they should be around espada 4 or 5 IMO

Oni Shinigami
October 03, 2008, 11:13 PM
If Barragan fights Yammaji than he is #1

Though I do forsee Stark fighting Ukitake and Shin at the SAME TIME!!!

I could care less about the Espada Releases though...

I WANNA SEE YAMMAJI's BANKAI!!!! His shikai was scorching soul society and everything around it, is his Bankai just going to nuke all of fake kk town?

Hockeychaoz
October 04, 2008, 12:47 AM
Lol, I just reread the chapter.
I was under the assumption before that Soi Fon was fighting the 2 fraccion. Lol, shes only fighting 1 fraccion.
She better win in a chapter.

And I agree about the unknown bankai thing is annoying. If we actually get to see these fights, the bankai are guaranteed. Yay!

basterd
October 04, 2008, 06:22 AM
Really great chapter. Ikkaku was totaly worth that scold! Go Iba!
Finally the real fights begin. This is what we have been waiting for for a long time now.
Tough my predictions are that the scene will change to Ichigo now. Just to get us more hyped about thbe KK-fights and because KK has had its share of fights by now.

Toshiro & Matsumoto was the only ones that didn't get an opponent. And Hallibel didn't get any opponent. So guessing that they will fight eachother.
Yama and Barragan will fight, that has been forseen for a long time. Same as Shunsui and Stark was gonna fight (as now have been confirmed).

The thing that I would like to see is that Youruichi (spelling?) fighting Halibell. That would be a great fight imo :)

Andonan
October 04, 2008, 07:20 AM
@Basterd
Go have a look at the final page of the chapter again LOL you've answered your own question Toshiro and matsumoto are Fighting Halibel and her Fraccion LOL, don't worry it's easy to miss :) (it's on the far left of the final page :)

Doombot
October 04, 2008, 10:28 AM
Really great chapter. Ikkaku was totaly worth that scold! Go Iba!

I agree.. Ikkaku is so bent on serving under Kenpachi that he is actually refusing to become stronger. His main goal in life was to defeat him and now because he refuses to show his true strength or even train at that level he's not reaching his potential.

I see a fight in the future where he steps in and destroys someone important with his bankai. It can't be an Espada though.. could it?

Tsukisama
October 04, 2008, 12:16 PM
@Basterd
Go have a look at the final page of the chapter again LOL you've answered your own question Toshiro and matsumoto are Fighting Halibel and her Fraccion LOL, don't worry it's easy to miss :) (it's on the far left of the final page :)

Actually, that page (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/328/21-22/) only shows Hitsugaya and Rangiku against Halibel's fraccion and not Halibel herself, which I think is a good thing considering how Soi Fon, another captain, is also facing a fraccion.

The only ones not shown about to start a fight are Yamamoto, Sasakibe, Komamura (who could come back to where the captains are as quickly as he left to hit Po), Barragan, and Halibel. Thus, we still have two captains and two espada left. Although lots of people have been thinking Yamamoto vs. Barragan, I could easily see Komamura vs. Barragan as well, leaving Yamamoto and Halibel :blink (but in that case, I would expect Yamamoto and Halibel to just sit around and watch).

patz
October 04, 2008, 01:26 PM
I don't think Komamura will come back. He needs to protect that destroyed pillar. He has to make sure nobody will go mess with it again. Otherwise real Karakura town will come back.

Tsukisama
October 04, 2008, 01:36 PM
I don't think Komamura will come back. He needs to protect that destroyed pillar. He has to make sure nobody will go mess with it again. Otherwise real Karakura town will come back.

Maybe, but if Komamura sees that the espada are beginning to fight, he may feel that he is more needed there where the action is. Iba can take Ikkaku's place as pillar guardian for the interim period, since the other pillars are going to be protected by people of relatively equal strength to him. I just don't think that Komamura would be left out for that reason.

hajialibaig
October 04, 2008, 02:13 PM
Yes we finally get down to the major stuff. I'm looking forward to Baragan vs Yamamoto.

Same here. The #1 vs. #1 fight :D

The Adamant Dragon
October 04, 2008, 02:36 PM
Yamamoto revealing his Ban-Kai will be one of this Serie's top memorable moments. We've witnessed the destruction that his Shikai can inflict <--- He was able to emprison Aizen and co, using Shikai powers only. imo His shikai can be easily compared and his stronger to some SS Captain's Ban-Kai (at least the ones we've seen so far).

As for the battles, I don't mind who fights who, all I want is for kubo to them right. These fights are the ones we've been waiting since the manga's early stages...

The only fact that I'm about to see Shunshui and Ukitake fight seriously and release Ban-Kai gets me even more thrilled to watch the manga. I just hope Kubo set his story-line and battles right.

xXAshisogiJizoXx
October 04, 2008, 03:15 PM
Maybe its just me but did anyone else love the page where you only see their feet, knowing that everybody is choosing and running to their opponent. i was like, "YES, finally!"

Onomatopoeia
October 04, 2008, 05:32 PM
Next Chapter switches to Ulqui and Ichigo, at the end of the Ichigo vs Ulqui fight all the Captains are down on the ground. Totally like SS thing, way to similair for my liking...

Hope not though.

patedecarne
October 04, 2008, 07:31 PM
haha, one thing just has come to my mind right now: What do you think about...

Yammamoto vs Halibel & Barragan?

Just now, this possibility would be the hellish one, and seeing how the only remaining big fishes are those 3, this possibility is highly possible...

C'mon, such battle would be the century's battle, I can assure you ^_^

Darek Khort
October 04, 2008, 07:56 PM
Could very well work out, although I really doubt Barragan would allow Halibel to fight along his side. He doesn't seem like the co-operative type. Having Halibel join him in the fight against Yama might - for him - seem like a sign of weakness "I need help from a lower espada".
Barragan seems too proud for that.

On the topic of Yama's bankai. I hope we don't see him using it against an espada. Him defeating an espada with shikai should be possible and would elevate his power.
Think of it this way:
1. If he has difficulty fighting an espada using Bankai, it would look bad on him in terms of how in the world he'd be able to take down Aizen and co, or even VLs if they indeed still exist.
2. If he uses Bankai and is in fact extremely strong compared to the espada and the match is really quick....that would just kill the excitement of seeing a top espada fight.

Thus I reckon either Yama will not do anything at all but keep an eye on Aizen and co, or, he'll just use Shikai against whoever fights him which is most likely Barragan.
Given the destructive power of his shikai, he'd probably have to shunpo to somewhere really, really far away from the pillars (or would that be the center of KT?) so as to not damage them.

stevenash
October 04, 2008, 09:25 PM
will aizen probably have a vaizard mask or something???....I think old man yama won't fight yet....maybe he won't fight at all....

hossice
October 04, 2008, 11:49 PM
friends vs. exquias. come to me!!!! i want that fight 2 be here. most of all so it can be done and gone w/.

uryus & yammys where abouts. also the misterious lab w/ the two dangling figures. that should all be shown in the next chapter.

eddy26
October 05, 2008, 02:31 AM
My prediction Yamamoto is going to send his VC to help Rangiku and Hitsugaya. I'm not saying that Hitsugaya and Rangiku are weak that's why they need help. It's just that they are outnumbered if 3 people come at you with swords each person can block one but that means the third sword is free to stab Hitsugaya or Rangiku. Yamamoto should be able to see this of course Kubo could just make Hitsugaya go bankai. Hitsugaya and Ichigo always seem to pull out their bankai immediately when they start fighting.
It would be cool to see Halibel go attack the pillars by herself. She is one of the top three I'm going to stop guessing cause it is pointless to do so anymore. We will be able to see just how strong the espada are because it would be 4 on 1. Halibel vs. Izuru, Hisagi, Iba, and Komamura. Take Yumichika out of the picture because Izuru knocked him out and Iba just punched out any energy Ikkaku had left. If she could beat all four then that would show how strong the top three espada are. Chances that'll happen 0 percent but it would be cool to see how she would do.
This is a bit off topic but I was wondering why some readers want to see people die in Bleach? In SS we had zero deaths everybody survived alot of people got beat up but they were eventually healed. Only person who has ever died is Kaien and well that was before Rukia even met Ichigo. Characters who lose battles survive look at Byakuya he was Ichigo's biggest enemy in SS and he wasn't killed. People still liked the SS arc so I don't know death's may not be necessary. Kubo could have easily made an extra Vizard in the TBTP arc and show Aizen killing someone but it would have been pointless. Aizen has never killed someone only indirectly because one of his experiments killed Kaien. It's something I was just thinking about.
Anyway what would be really cruel is if Kubo went back to HM I mean everyone has been wanting to see captains in action and then to be taken away just when the battles are starting would just be mean. I forgot someone posted this before but what they said made sense. It wouldn't be logical to have one of the top three espada release when espada 4 hasn't released. Technically Yammy hasn't released either so when we go back to Hueco Mundo it would be funny seeing Uryuu fighting Yammy and forcing him to release.

basterd
October 05, 2008, 06:23 AM
Actually, that page (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/328/21-22/) only shows Hitsugaya and Rangiku against Halibel's fraccion and not Halibel herself, which I think is a good thing considering how Soi Fon, another captain, is also facing a fraccion.

The only ones not shown about to start a fight are Yamamoto, Sasakibe, Komamura (who could come back to where the captains are as quickly as he left to hit Po), Barragan, and Halibel. Thus, we still have two captains and two espada left. Although lots of people have been thinking Yamamoto vs. Barragan, I could easily see Komamura vs. Barragan as well, leaving Yamamoto and Halibel :blink (but in that case, I would expect Yamamoto and Halibel to just sit around and watch).

Exatcly. Wasn't really clear in my previous post. Ment captains that are in the "area of the fight" that didn't have any espada facing them. That made me include Toshiro & Matsumoto fighting Halibel :)

About Komamura vs Barragan, ye could see that coming. But it's not that often someone bounces from fight to fight back and forth in bleach. Usually stays at that point their last battle was. But sure, seems to be in a predicting way that will happen.

But still, my predictions are that the scene will change to Ichigo vs Ulq now :( (or should it be a happy face :)?)

xXAshisogiJizoXx
October 05, 2008, 10:58 AM
About Komamura vs Barragan, ye could see that coming. But it's not that often someone bounces from fight to fight back and forth in bleach. Usually stays at that point their last battle was.

while that is usually true, its not so much for komamura, he has a tendency to jump away in the middle of a battle and crash land somewhere else (Ken -> Aizen) :p

cero_tenshou
October 05, 2008, 05:33 PM
there is a possibility of gin and tousen ambushing yama. gin releases his zan right at yama and when he is about to block it tousen surrounds yama with his bankai. yama catches shinsou with his bare hands even though he can't see, and swings around shinsou to destroy tousen's bankai. i do think that in theory, yama is more than capable of doing something like that, but the scenario is probably highly unlikely..

Seriph2
October 05, 2008, 10:39 PM
I honestly think were going to see another "old man" and ichigo meeting for 2 reasons...


1. evil ichigo ( hollow controlled ) I feel just served as a prelude to him possessing a greater power and also introducing the other vaizards but also as a CURRENT reminder that the current vaizard ichigo is not at full potential. Which goes hand in hand with my 2nd reason.....


2. Think about ichigo's bankai for the main character it is one of the most simplistic and limited bankai's in the entire story..... he gains speed whoop dee doo I highly doubt that is the full extent. I predict another meeting with old man zangetsu and him saying something like "you never bothered to ask me what else I could do for you, you just assumed the BASE increase in speed and power was the full extent of my abilities...."


The two points go hand in hand, it is a two fold power increase, the most significant power boost will come from his meeting with "old man" zangetsu where like I said the full extent of his bankai will be revealed, on top of this however there is FURTHER room down the line to progress by fully mastering his vaizard form. This expansion in power will be like finding out your m4 ( current bankai ) has a full automatic mode (mastered bankai) but also comes with a grenade launcher attachment (mastered vaizard)

On to something "radical" I honestly believe that Ichigo is going to get wtfpwned instantly before he even gets a chance to go vaizard form which will spark his meeting with zangetsu at which point his full bankai powers will be revealed and he wont even need vaizard form to defeat ulq. Now many im sure will disagree but think about how far behind in power ichigo currently is as the MAIN CHARACTER of the story it makes absolutely no sense and such a drastic boost in power is absolutely vital in my opinion to make it even reasonable that ichigo can contend with anyone more powerful than ulq.

Darek Khort
October 06, 2008, 03:51 AM
That could very well happen. It's a good theory.
The only problem is, how will Zangetsu come out? Currently as far as we know, Shirosaki is in control of Ichigo's 'inner realm'.
The only way I see 'old man' Zangetsu taking over from Shirosaki is if somehow the breaking of Ichigo's mask makes Shirosaki weak and Zangetsu stronger. But that seems too simple.
Or perhaps as soon as Ichigo loses in the first second of the battle, Shirosaki comes out and fights for like, a few seconds before he somehow loses too and thus, the old man comes into control of Ichigo's Inner Realm?

bloodrage
October 06, 2008, 04:04 AM
That could very well happen. It's a good theory.
The only problem is, how will Zangetsu come out? Currently as far as we know, Shirosaki is in control of Ichigo's 'inner realm'.
The only way I see 'old man' Zangetsu taking over from Shirosaki is if somehow the breaking of Ichigo's mask makes Shirosaki weak and Zangetsu stronger. But that seems too simple.
Or perhaps as soon as Ichigo loses in the first second of the battle, Shirosaki comes out and fights for like, a few seconds before he somehow loses too and thus, the old man comes into control of Ichigo's Inner Realm?

i thought when ichigo was going through the vizard training that he defeated shirosaki to gain control of his body once moreor he would have been took over a long time ago? am i wrong!!!? i can't remember

poobert
October 06, 2008, 04:38 AM
Even if hollow ichigo is in control of his inner place, if it comes to training Ichigo, then he will let the old man out, just like the opposite happened http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/112/01/. If Ichigo dies, they all die, so hollow ichigo would not deny Ichigo a lesson from the old man.

I would like the old man to come back. Ichigo's bankai is very underdeveloped. He has no special attack other than the black Getsuga Tenshō, which was made clear when he fought Byakuya.

Omi_XII
October 06, 2008, 09:40 AM
On to something "radical" I honestly believe that Ichigo is going to get wtfpwned instantly before he even gets a chance to go vaizard form which will spark his meeting with zangetsu at which point his full bankai powers will be revealed and he wont even need vaizard form to defeat ulq. Now many im sure will disagree but think about how far behind in power ichigo currently is as the MAIN CHARACTER of the story it makes absolutely no sense and such a drastic boost in power is absolutely vital in my opinion to make it even reasonable that ichigo can contend with anyone more powerful than ulq.


Actually, I found some sensitive information about Ichigo's Ban kai. apparently he has another transformation, and combined with a take from it's name ''Tensa Zangetsu'' The new form is called '' Ban Ki Moon. ''

this is top secret, so don't tell anyone I showed this to you. This is a picture of what his Super-Ban Ki looks like.

http://www.dadkeyga.com/files.php?file=UN_sec_gen_ban_ki__177652303.jpg

llamapie
October 06, 2008, 10:14 AM
Actually, I found some sensitive information about Ichigo's Ban kai. apparently he has another transformation, and combined with a take from it's name ''Tensa Zangetsu'' The new form is called '' Ban Ki Moon. ''

this is top secret, so don't tell anyone I showed this to you. This is a picture of what his Super-Ban Ki looks like.

http://www.dadkeyga.com/files.php?file=UN_sec_gen_ban_ki__177652303.jpg

HAHAHA..

I always liked the thought that ichigo was just confused and his bankai is his shikai. :P And his shikai isn't shikai. So on so forth. >< How cool would that be?

redcometfm
October 06, 2008, 11:03 AM
Then that means Kenpachi could have a similar situation.

Therefore, Ichigo technically hasn't reached bankai yet! :D

Oni Shinigami
October 06, 2008, 12:15 PM
Old man Zangetsu never taught Ichigo the Black Getsuga Tenshou anyways...it was the Inner hollow.

If I were Ichigo I would be trying to ask the inner hollow for more power and techniques. But hopefully doesn't have to prove that he's the king and not the horse again.

Seriph2
October 06, 2008, 12:37 PM
My point stands I really dont think ichigo's current bankai is even close to full potential and like I said in his fight against ulq we will see another meeting with old man zangetsu. Everyone acts like its so absurd and that he has to get some kind of other powerup but recall renji and how much his bankai has progressed it was just easier to tell with his bankai because it actually has a "form" so its easier to note an expansion in its abilities from his fight against byakuya to his fight against the espada. Like I said before ichigo is the main character of the manga and currently his bankai is just a power/speed boost his hollow form is just another power/speed boost people act like im proposing some dragon ball z super sayan 2 mode if anything I want him to stray away from that because thats all hes been given so far more power more speed no new tricks no new abilities nothing.

llamapie
October 06, 2008, 12:53 PM
Then that means Kenpachi could have a similar situation.

Therefore, Ichigo technically hasn't reached bankai yet! :D

Its true that ichigo has defied logic for more shinigami. His sword is stuck in what we assume to be shikai, and no matter the situation it never reverts back to the first sword he ever had. Thats where theories come in. Zangetsu needs to teach ichi some insane technique. Getsuga is just so far been far too useless, seems like a low ability. And the ability to use shunpo? Doesn't really make much sense. There has to be more to it. What it comes down to is comparing him to the other vizards.

The ugly one (already forgot his name).. Shinji! -- well he beat the snot out of Grimjaw without even releasing shikai. Where Ichigo in bankai+mask had trouble beating him.

Raizen
October 06, 2008, 01:23 PM
Unfortunately, we will go back to HM instead of the captains fight.
huh, oh well.

Can someone just own yammi already? The thing is useless. i would like yachiru to scare the hell out of him. hahaha

The Adamant Dragon
October 06, 2008, 01:39 PM
Can someone just own yammi already? The thing is useless. i would like yachiru to scare the hell out of him. hahaha

Hehehe, I'm really wondering why Kubo haven't erased the guy Alreaddy... I just hope it wasn't a mistake. Maybe he'll play a consistant role or Kubo just kept him to Fight a weaker Shinigami or one of Ichigo's friend. Maybe for Chado, since he's starting to get stronger and Just recently found out that his powers are stronger in HM, it'll be a good way to further develop this character imho

I Wonder if he'll stay in HM for sometimes though <--- For training purposes, since His powers' full potential can be easily exploited over there.

Raizen
October 06, 2008, 02:09 PM
Hehehe, I'm really wondering why Kubo haven't erased the guy Alreaddy... I just hope it wasn't a mistake. Maybe he'll play a consistant role or Kubo just kept him to Fight a weaker Shinigami or one of Ichigo's friend. Maybe for Chado, since he's starting to get stronger and Just recently found out that his powers are stronger in HM, it'll be a good way to further develop this character imho

I Wonder if he'll stay in HM for sometimes though <--- For training purposes, since His powers' full potential can be easily exploited over there.
No, yammi i think is the key to aizen's plan.
He will ultimately be killed by aizen

Seriph2
October 06, 2008, 02:14 PM
Personally I want to know what they discovered in the lab with the 2 hanging guys....... any theories or speculations on what they found?

The Adamant Dragon
October 06, 2008, 02:22 PM
No, yammi i think is the key to aizen's plan.
He will ultimately be killed by aizen
Care to elaborate Raizen?


Personally I want to know what they discovered in the lab with the 2 hanging guys....... any theories or speculations on what they found?

Theories have been made before but we don't know enough right now to make more assumptions nor speculations. I bet Kubo will surprise us.

Seriph2
October 06, 2008, 02:37 PM
Care to elaborate Raizen?



Theories have been made before but we don't know enough right now to make more assumptions nor speculations. I bet Kubo will surprise us.


I know im getting off topic now but it'd be crazy if the hanging bodies were 2 current captains and 2 of the captains currently "defending" the fake K-town are just aizen hypnosis imposters, that would explain aizens demeanor and lack of urgency.


Also that would work perfectly with the story since they are stuck in HM and cant get back to warn anyone regardless.

ryanzokuken
October 06, 2008, 04:33 PM
Mayuri probably would have had a much more surprised and urgent reaction when he saw them if that were the case.

Seriph2
October 06, 2008, 04:51 PM
Mayuri probably would have had a much more surprised and urgent reaction when he saw them if that were the case.



This is true point taken, who knows but mayuri really is a odd character its not too much of a stretch to believe he wouldnt react the same as for instance ichigo to something like this. Afterall this is the same guy who experiments on live test subjects and such so his response might not exactly be as emotional as ichigos or another captain for example.

As far as urgency goes there is nothing they could do regardless he knows they are stuck there for the time being so urgency would be a non factor for them unfortunately.

xXAshisogiJizoXx
October 06, 2008, 05:39 PM
No, yammi i think is the key to aizen's plan.
He will ultimately be killed by aizen

I too have actually thought that yammi has a bigger role to play, i think that he will have to use his gonzui thing to absorb the souls in KK to create the ouken. most likely the process will kill him (and most likely yammi won;t be aware of this :P).

As for the bodies, its most likely dordoni and cirucci, which also makes the most sense, cuz when szayel left to "change his clothes" you know that means "go to my lab to do some more research on stupid quincy who ruined my clothes". However another theory that i liked was that the bodies were actually copies of uryuu and renji, although i dont know how that would work..., but i can't think of anything else that isn;t far-fetched or just random

Onomatopoeia
October 06, 2008, 06:02 PM
Mayuri probably would have had a much more surprised and urgent reaction when he saw them if that were the case.

Mayuri never acts anything but interested over a new revelation. That giant hole that was in his body doesn't count for obvious reasons.

Mayuri is not one to be shocked by new revelations or experiments the Gaiden Arc only proves that. It could just as easily been an Earth Busting Bomb and he would still act the exact same way. When it comes to inventions he's not one to be surprised.

Raizen
October 06, 2008, 06:03 PM
Care to elaborate Raizen?



Theories have been made before but we don't know enough right now to make more assumptions nor speculations. I bet Kubo will surprise us.
Yeah. :p
basically it is a theory based on yammi's ability when he was first introduced. The ability to absorb souls. This ability may be necessary to create the key. When he is finished w/ the job, aizen may call for him. He thinks he will get to fight when in reality aizen called him to kill him and release the souls. The souls will create a sort of portal. King realm here we go
I mean why else would he still be around when espada 5-9 is gone?

As for the 2 bodies, I hope the authro touch on this subject quick. Most likely we will learn about them when ichigo fights. If the bodies are allies of SS, unohana may try to heal them and then someone shows up and tries to stop her. Giving her a fight

Seriph2
October 06, 2008, 08:24 PM
Yeah. :p
basically it is a theory based on yammi's ability when he was first introduced. The ability to absorb souls. This ability may be necessary to create the key. When he is finished w/ the job, aizen may call for him. He thinks he will get to fight when in reality aizen called him to kill him and release the souls. The souls will create a sort of portal. King realm here we go
I mean why else would he still be around when espada 5-9 is gone?

As for the 2 bodies, I hope the authro touch on this subject quick. Most likely we will learn about them when ichigo fights. If the bodies are allies of SS, unohana may try to heal them and then someone shows up and tries to stop her. Giving her a fight



I have a major problem with this being the case BECAUSE of the fact he is so lowly rated, why would he have an ability so vital in aizens plans and why would he have been allowed to scout the earth with the risk of having been killed immediately. I think if anything like this occurs it definitely wasnt intended beforehand and is a copout plot tool think about it the lowest ranked espada with the most important ability something vital to his plans? Im not trying to be a jerk please dont misunderstand its just my personal opinion about how credible all that would be if it were to happen but who knows maybe hes more powerful than weve all been made to believe.

ryanzokuken
October 06, 2008, 09:26 PM
i agree, Seriph.

if his soul sucking ability was so important to the cause, it would be foolish to send him out where he could get killed, on two seperate occasions, no less.

Lsshin
October 06, 2008, 11:29 PM
yea but one thing hollows got that shinigamis dont is they can just trabel back to HM and skip dead and to make us think esacty what your pointing aizen sendt him remember who he was with? ulquiora and he inst that easy to kill so we might be on to someting here

redcometfm
October 07, 2008, 12:30 AM
Well as we all know, Kubo keeps up on himself, as in no inconsistencies (despite what we thought about Coolhorn and the other Barragan fraccion), so Im sure there is a good reason for the absence of Wonderweiss and Yammi.

Cyanilurus
October 07, 2008, 12:56 AM
I think Yammi might have something to do about Ulquiorra' s backstory if we get something like this at all (I' m thinking along the lines of Grimmjaw' s backstory in terms of length and whatnot). After all, the two of them have been showed so many times working to gether, and I always had the kind of feeling that Ulquiorra cuts some slack for a big idiot like him.

With that said, it' s truly odd how Espadas of higher ranks are gone and he' s still there, so I' m willing to bet he' s going to get killed some time, probably by Chad because he owes him an arm.

patedecarne
October 07, 2008, 08:13 AM
Next chapter...

seems Ulquiorra and Ichigo will take the spotlight again, now that Kubo just has settled up who will fight against who, we can move to HM again, and like someone here previsouly mentioned, there's no point on show the 1-3 espadas's powers before the quarto;

At least for me, Ulquiorra vs Ichigo is the most important battle right now, there're so much with that battle, and I'm not talking world destruction or Ouken, but Ichigo's feelings toward Ulquiorra, the man who kidnapped Inoue;

More than Aizen, Ulq is the true rival of Ichigo, and defeating Ulquiorra right now is more than enough to place Ichigo as a true main protagonist^^

hajialibaig
October 07, 2008, 09:48 AM
...and defeating Ulquiorra right now is more than enough to place Ichigo as a true main protagonist^^

...It was only several hours ago that Ulquiorra pwned Ichigo without breaking a sweat...How Ichigo will "somehow" beat him now when he couldn't lay a scratch on him only a couple of hours ago (we're talking about hours here, not days, months) is completely beyond me. I sense another plot hole/inconsistency

Seriph2
October 07, 2008, 10:07 AM
...It was only several hours ago that Ulquiorra pwned Ichigo without breaking a sweat...How Ichigo will "somehow" beat him now when he couldn't lay a scratch on him only a couple of hours ago (we're talking about hours here, not days, months) is completely beyond me. I sense another plot hole/inconsistency


I sense another meeting with old man zangetsu either that or a raging out of control hollow ichigo but hopefully not a combination of the two because that really leaves no realistic room for progression.

Cyanilurus
October 07, 2008, 10:17 AM
Progression would say Ichigo beats Ulquiorra, which is unrealistic... :p

Will Inoue be screaming "Kurosaki-kun" in the background again? T_T I found her pretty likeable early in the series, but this part in the Noitora fight bothered me so much...

gold349
October 07, 2008, 11:04 AM
Ichigo showed potential that great as if not greater than Ulquara (his rietsu fluctuated really low to being high as or higher than Ulquara back when he and yammi came to earth I think). If it is the case then Ichigo losing to Ulqura badly earlier was nothing, I mean to say he lost miserably and it would be lame for him to come back to win then I disagree. He has the tools OK they are rough, he needs to polish his techniques be better at bankai, pull out other techniques from shiro/zangets he can beat Ulquara, IMO he needs to do this now against ulquara so he is able to face the bigger threat prepared...I'd rather he get some in battle training/power up now than later as it would look forced and be put down to him being main character.

Cyanilurus
October 07, 2008, 11:14 AM
I don' t have the problem with ichigo beating Ulquiorra because I too remember that he has much higher potential than him. What bothers me so much that he seems to be doing so in just a couple hours after he got beat up by Ulquiorra, and there hasn' t been anything to indicate he got something more from that time. Realistically there just shouldn' t be a way for him to unvover his potentials and bring them to the fullest in such a short time...

welll...

Unless the Zangetsu thing kicks in again just like with his fight Kenpachi... Combined with his Sayajin tendencies as of late... :p

nokozon
October 07, 2008, 11:55 AM
I don' t have the problem with ichigo beating Ulquiorra because I too remember that he has much higher potential than him. What bothers me so much that he seems to be doing so in just a couple hours after he got beat up by Ulquiorra, and there hasn' t been anything to indicate he got something more from that time. Realistically there just shouldn' t be a way for him to unvover his potentials and bring them to the fullest in such a short time...

welll...

Unless the Zangetsu thing kicks in again just like with his fight Kenpachi... Combined with his Sayajin tendencies as of late... :p

Ultimately, everybody knows Ichigo will win all, because he's Ichigo. But you're right, it's only been a few hours since they last fought. It would be absurd for him to win now, unless of course he becomes entirely possessed by Shirosaki (who's full potential is still unproven).

Also, it would be cool if Ulquiorra beat him to a pulp and Unohana stepped in to save his sorry ass. #4 vs #4! Ulqui vs Uno! SUNDAY SUNDAY SUNDAY!
Sorry.

Eye of the tiger
October 07, 2008, 12:09 PM
Unohana stepping in would be uber-awesome, but I'd rather we get to see Shirosaki.. the set-up with Ulq is exactly like the one with Byakuya during SS arc.. ichigo was destroyed the first time, them again barely left alive the next time (or saved by someone e.g., Yoruichi/GJ & boobs), and finally comes on par the third time, but shirosaki comes out and PWNAGE!!!! I think its likely we'll see either Zangetsu or shirosaki.

hajialibaig
October 07, 2008, 12:29 PM
Unohana stepping in would be uber-awesome, but I'd rather we get to see Shirosaki.. the set-up with Ulq is exactly like the one with Byakuya during SS arc.. ichigo was destroyed the first time, them again barely left alive the next time (or saved by someone e.g., Yoruichi/GJ & boobs), and finally comes on par the third time, but shirosaki comes out and PWNAGE!!!! I think its likely we'll see either Zangetsu or shirosaki.

Only difference is that Ichigo had a month to refight Byakuya, but here, we're talking about mere hours. So logically, he should get pwned again.

And about Ichigo's raitsu fluctuating higher than Ulquiorra's: that's just an observation. When it come down to battle, one-on-one, Ichigo got his a$$ handed back to him: that's the experiment.
[hr]

What bothers me so much that he seems to be doing so in just a couple hours after he got beat up by Ulquiorra, and there hasn' t been anything to indicate he got something more from that time. Realistically there just shouldn' t be a way for him to unvover his potentials and bring them to the fullest in such a short time...

Spot on. I agree.

Eye of the tiger
October 07, 2008, 12:33 PM
Only difference is that Ichigo had a month to refight Byakuya, but here, we're talking about mere hours. So logically, he should get pwned again.

And about Ichigo's raitsu fluctuating higher than Ulquiorra's: that's just an observation. When it come down to battle, one-on-one, Ichigo got his a$$ handed back to him: that's the experiment.
<hr noshade size="1">


Spot on. I agree.

Byakuya fight was after 3 days, when he got to his bankai.
one thing here is that he fought ulq after the fights with the privaron and was just not prepared enough.. now he has battle experience sans GJ and Noi.. plus he's been fully restored to max strength by boobs and also has leftover resolve from before.. no wonder this time, ulq is already drawing his sword since he can feel Ichigo's coming at full power.. but you're probably right that he'd still get somewhat owned and hopefully, shirosaki takes over!!

darkband
October 07, 2008, 12:44 PM
Ichigo's problem has always been that he lacks resolve. With him its all about how focused he is. All the comments about him suddenly getting stronger after almost dying are in my opinion a bit stupid, no offense intended. It wasn't the death that made him stronger but his resolve. And I think Ichigo is finally getting back to his instincts like during SS. I think we can all agree that he got a major downgrade after SS because of Shirosaki messing with his head. Anyway, i for one( I seem to be in the minority don't I) think him fighting evenly with Ulquiorra isn't that far fetched. Though it would be nice to see his hollow or Zangetsu during the fight.

Hockeychaoz
October 07, 2008, 01:19 PM
Next chapter is Ichigo vs Ulq for sure.
They're not going to show the 1-3 Espada's strength before showing the 4th. It would make Ulq look insignificant.

Cyanilurus
October 07, 2008, 01:27 PM
Ichigo's problem has always been that he lacks resolve. With him its all about how focused he is. All the comments about him suddenly getting stronger after almost dying are in my opinion a bit stupid, no offense intended. It wasn't the death that made him stronger but his resolve. And I think Ichigo is finally getting back to his instincts like during SS. I think we can all agree that he got a major downgrade after SS because of Shirosaki messing with his head. Anyway, i for one( I seem to be in the minority don't I) think him fighting evenly with Ulquiorra isn't that far fetched. Though it would be nice to see his hollow or Zangetsu during the fight.


Because it' s a shonen manga, it will be made to seem not far-fetched and resolve will pawn everything... If it wasn' t just a couple hours difference int the manga-timeline and if it wasn' t the all too well-known patch I wouldn' t make unsatisfied comments about this.

Then again, it has yet to be said and done and if Kubo pulls out something amazing I' m willing to suck back all the bad comments I spouted. *imagine a Yammi here with boobs using his soul-sucking technique and then you will know exactly what that will be like...*

hajialibaig
October 07, 2008, 01:40 PM
Ichigo's problem has always been that he lacks resolve. With him its all about how focused he is. All the comments about him suddenly getting stronger after almost dying are in my opinion a bit stupid, no offense intended. It wasn't the death that made him stronger but his resolve. And I think Ichigo is finally getting back to his instincts like during SS. I think we can all agree that he got a major downgrade after SS because of Shirosaki messing with his head. Anyway, i for one( I seem to be in the minority don't I) think him fighting evenly with Ulquiorra isn't that far fetched. Though it would be nice to see his hollow or Zangetsu during the fight.

Looks like everything that doesn't make any sense ends up being dumped in the "resolve" department eh..

As far as I remember, Ichigo was 100% pissed and put everything his soul/body had into that huge GT attack on Ulquiorra, but Ulquiorra still came out unharmed. So I guess his "resolve" was pretty decent, no? You gotta be kidding

So knowing that attack had everything his physical body could give out, any amount of additional resolve isn't gonna do much, cause his body hit its limit. Anything other than that is a "powerup" and has to be explained. It can't just came out of the blue and be like: oh his resolve just went up another 162%...

ryanzokuken
October 07, 2008, 01:43 PM
Ichigo's problem has always been that he lacks resolve. With him its all about how focused he is. All the comments about him suddenly getting stronger after almost dying are in my opinion a bit stupid, no offense intended. It wasn't the death that made him stronger but his resolve. And I think Ichigo is finally getting back to his instincts like during SS. I think we can all agree that he got a major downgrade after SS because of Shirosaki messing with his head. Anyway, i for one( I seem to be in the minority don't I) think him fighting evenly with Ulquiorra isn't that far fetched. Though it would be nice to see his hollow or Zangetsu during the fight.

i agree. when i see the "wtf, Ichigo just tripled his power out of nowhere and won. plotkai! plotkai!" comments, i'm always annoyed.

EVERY single time Ichigo has come back from a beating and won the fight, there has been an easily visible, logical explanation.

Kenpachi fight- huge internal development and syncing with Zangetsu. Zangetsu helped bring him "back to life" and held off his bleeding, while Ichigo fought more skillfully and relied more on his zanpakuto, fighting with it as a team.

Byakuya fight- speedy bankai was a good match for Byakuya's blades, Ogichi saved him, etc.

Grimmjow- resolve was shaken by Orihime's fear of him in his masked form. resolve, confidence, and determination regained after Orihime and Nel cheered him on.

Ichigo has a decent chance against Ulquiorra if he can keep his mask on for as long as he did against Grimmjow, and if either Zangetsu or Ogichi make an appearance to help him out.



Because it' s a shonen manga, it will be made to seem not far-fetched and resolve will pawn everything... If it wasn' t just a couple hours difference int the manga-timeline and if it wasn' t the all too well-known patch I wouldn' t make unsatisfied comments about this.

Then again, it has yet to be said and done and if Kubo pulls out something amazing I' m willing to suck back all the bad comments I spouted. *imagine a Yammi here with boobs using his soul-sucking technique and then you will know exactly what that will be like...*

well hopefully you don't look like Yammy. lol.

Onomatopoeia
October 07, 2008, 01:59 PM
i agree. when i see the "wtf, Ichigo just tripled his power out of nowhere and won. plotkai! plotkai!" comments, i'm always annoyed.

EVERY single time Ichigo has come back from a beating and won the fight, there has been an easily visible, logical explanation.

Kenpachi fight- huge internal development and syncing with Zangetsu. Zangetsu helped bring him "back to life" and held off his bleeding, while Ichigo fought more skillfully and relied more on his zanpakuto, fighting with it as a team.

Byakuya fight- speedy bankai was a good match for Byakuya's blades, Ogichi saved him, etc.

Grimmjow- resolve was shaken by Orihime's fear of him in his masked form. resolve, confidence, and determination regained after Orihime and Nel cheered him on.

Ichigo has a decent chance against Ulquiorra if he can keep his mask on for as long as he did against Grimmjow, and if either Zangetsu or Ogichi make an appearance to help him out.




well hopefully you don't look like Yammy. lol.

1. That was more or less was plotkai in that Ichigo has never shown that sort of power before or afterwards. But that battle itself wasn't plotkai.

2. Byakuya won that battle, in my opinion. No plotkai.

3. Freaking huge discussion over that with the Orihime point finally being discarded and thus battle being considered plotkai...

Anyways the arguement that the battle was won by Resolve is actually a lot stupider then Plotkai. If resolve was all that mattered then they should have discussed Resolve being an important point like in KHR.

hajialibaig
October 07, 2008, 01:59 PM
Okay, to make my point clear: Ichigo can NOT beat Ulquiorra without a powerup

Reason: He already went out on him with all the strength he had and got pwned. So if he used up everything his physical body had, how does having more resolve make any difference? <OPEN QUESTION>

Example: that's like me punching a concrete wall, if I go at it at full strength and with 0 resolve (i.e. I am doing it just for a thrill) I won't break it

Now if I had all the resolve/motivation (i.e. someone offered me a million $ if I broke it), it still won't make a difference cause I hit my physical limits

Yea, sounds like a dumb example, but whatever, as long as it illustrates the issue

monkey D luffy
October 07, 2008, 02:33 PM
I don' t have the problem with ichigo beating Ulquiorra because I too remember that he has much higher potential than him. What bothers me so much that he seems to be doing so in just a couple hours after he got beat up by Ulquiorra, and there hasn' t been anything to indicate he got something more from that time. Realistically there just shouldn' t be a way for him to unvover his potentials and bring them to the fullest in such a short time...

welll...

Unless the Zangetsu thing kicks in again just like with his fight Kenpachi... Combined with his Sayajin tendencies as of late... :p
actually a mere hour just passed by but it doesnt metter.
i wonder if zangetsu is back since when ichigo fought his inner hollow zangetsu was no where to be found. also it seems that the more ichigo uses hollow mode against strong enemies it lasts longer.
and as for the three top ranked espadas i dont know how much stronger they are from the ulquira grimjow and the #5 espada since helibel was pratially impressed by the power ichigo and grimjow had when they fought and it seems aizen trusts ulquira the most meaning he might be very strong

ryanzokuken
October 07, 2008, 02:36 PM
yes, Ichigo needs a powerup. as i said, if he can keep his mask on for a while AND either Zangetsu or Ogichi make an appearance to help, he can win.


i'm not saying the resolve stuff can help him win against an opponent who is truly more powerful than him. but like...the Grimmjow fight, Grimmjow wasn't vastly above Ichigo, nor was he winning the fight at any point OTHER THAN after Ichigo saw Orihime's reaction to his masked form and lost all confidence and determination.

beggining of the fight: they fought damn near equally, with Ichigo on top by a little. Grimm was landing more hits, but Ichigo's hits were more decisive and caused more damage.

middle of the fight: Ichigo was shaken, unconfident, lacking resolve and determination because he saw how he frightened Orihime, whom he was fighting to rescue, and how she didn't even look at him like he was himself, but a monster. Grimm started kicking his ass here.

end of the fight: Orihime showed her support for Ichigo and cheered for him, asking him not to get hurt any more and showing that she wasn't afraid. *cue the resolve* Ichigo went back to how he was earlier in the fight. he did NOT get any stronger, he just got his determination to win and his confidence back and fought with the same ferocity and tenacity that he fought with at the start of the battle and he came out on top and defeated Grimmjow.


plotkai is the stupidest thing i've ever heard of and does not even exist. it's just an excuse for confused fans to rest on when something can't be explained (or IS explained, and they just don't get it). they need closure and to be told exactly what is happening so they don't have to think and understand things for themselves, and when an explanation isn't straight up GIVEN verbally by a character, oh sheesh, it must be plotkai. :eyeroll that crazy Kubo Tite, he's just a big dummy and the masses of fans (most of which are in early high school) are so much smarter than him and could write a manga much better.:eyeroll

if Ichigo won a fight, he WON the fight. that's what happened. that's how it is. there are no plot excuses or arguments about it. what happens happens and that's that.

if someone, someday, actually grips their sword and says "plotkai!" and there is an explosion of text and manga pages and a big, gleaming suit of armor with "GOOD GUY" branded on the chest covers their body and the enemy just drops dead, you can call it a "plotkai" victory.


1. That was more or less was plotkai in that Ichigo has never shown that sort of power before or afterwards. But that battle itself wasn't plotkai.

what power are you talking about? he didn't do anything spectacular besides get up after being stabbed in the heart and take his stance with zangetsu after the blade was broken, and that is explained by old man Zangetsu being right there with him, helping him.

the massive storm of spirit energy matching Kenpachi's isn't ridiculous power that he never showed before or afterward. it's been the basis of Ichigo's strength since Rukia first put a binding Kido on him that one fateful night. Ichigo has titanic amounts of spirit energy. it's nothing new, he always has it.

it just so happens that in that final charge of the fight with Kenpachi, the two of them stood there and charged up their energy in blazing torrents before charging eachother and dealing their final strikes.

nothing new or extraordinary.

darkband
October 07, 2008, 03:42 PM
yes, Ichigo needs a powerup. as i said, if he can keep his mask on for a while AND either Zangetsu or Ogichi make an appearance to help, he can win.


i'm not saying the resolve stuff can help him win against an opponent who is truly more powerful than him. but like...the Grimmjow fight, Grimmjow wasn't vastly above Ichigo, nor was he winning the fight at any point OTHER THAN after Ichigo saw Orihime's reaction to his masked form and lost all confidence and determination.

beggining of the fight: they fought damn near equally, with Ichigo on top by a little. Grimm was landing more hits, but Ichigo's hits were more decisive and caused more damage.

middle of the fight: Ichigo was shaken, unconfident, lacking resolve and determination because he saw how he frightened Orihime, whom he was fighting to rescue, and how she didn't even look at him like he was himself, but a monster. Grimm started kicking his ass here.

end of the fight: Orihime showed her support for Ichigo and cheered for him, asking him not to get hurt any more and showing that she wasn't afraid. *cue the resolve* Ichigo went back to how he was earlier in the fight. he did NOT get any stronger, he just got his determination to win and his confidence back and fought with the same ferocity and tenacity that he fought with at the start of the battle and he came out on top and defeated Grimmjow.


plotkai is the stupidest thing i've ever heard of and does not even exist. it's just an excuse for confused fans to rest on when something can't be explained (or IS explained, and they just don't get it). they need closure and to be told exactly what is happening so they don't have to think and understand things for themselves, and when an explanation isn't straight up GIVEN verbally by a character, oh sheesh, it must be plotkai. :eyeroll that crazy Kubo Tite, he's just a big dummy and the masses of fans (most of which are in early high school) are so much smarter than him and could write a manga much better.:eyeroll

if Ichigo won a fight, he WON the fight. that's what happened. that's how it is. there are no plot excuses or arguments about it. what happens happens and that's that.

if someone, someday, actually grips their sword and says "plotkai!" and there is an explosion of text and manga pages and a big, gleaming suit of armor with "GOOD GUY" branded on the chest covers their body and the enemy just drops dead, you can call it a "plotkai" victory.



what power are you talking about? he didn't do anything spectacular besides get up after being stabbed in the heart and take his stance with zangetsu after the blade was broken, and that is explained by old man Zangetsu being right there with him, helping him.

the massive storm of spirit energy matching Kenpachi's isn't ridiculous power that he never showed before or afterward. it's been the basis of Ichigo's strength since Rukia first put a binding Kido on him that one fateful night. Ichigo has titanic amounts of spirit energy. it's nothing new, he always has it.

it just so happens that in that final charge of the fight with Kenpachi, the two of them stood there and charged up their energy in blazing torrents before charging eachother and dealing their final strikes.

nothing new or extraordinary.

I agree with everything you've said. I too think he needs a power up, and that for Ichigo instant power ups are not plotkai because the power has been there since the very first chapter. It's just how he works with it that determines his power in a battle. As he gets more experienced and in control of himself he will of course get stronger. Seriously, when people say its only been an hour, does time really mean anything. In that hour more happened than sometimes happens in months. So time is really a non factor.

Raizen
October 07, 2008, 03:48 PM
I have a major problem with this being the case BECAUSE of the fact he is so lowly rated, why would he have an ability so vital in aizens plans and why would he have been allowed to scout the earth with the risk of having been killed immediately. I think if anything like this occurs it definitely wasnt intended beforehand and is a copout plot tool think about it the lowest ranked espada with the most important ability something vital to his plans? Im not trying to be a jerk please dont misunderstand its just my personal opinion about how credible all that would be if it were to happen but who knows maybe hes more powerful than weve all been made to believe.
No offense taken. I understand where u are coming from. Well in the first appearance of yammi, he wasn't even suppose to go. He insisted on going. My bet is that since ulquiorra was there, aizen knew that nothing was going to happen.
In the end it is just a theory, most likely it is wrong but hey that is the fun in predictions

As for ichigo winning against ulqi, he should be able to do it. This will involve him having another meeting w/ his inner spirit. Then he will pull a can of whoop ass

And ichigo's battle w/ ken. Ken and ichigo both have massive SP. In the last attack, ichigo was infused w/ the power of zangetsu (which is equivalent to hollow ichigo since they are one and the same) that is how he was able to get a draw. That is why ken was able to beat noitora. In the end Ichigo is not really much stroner then the captains IMO. Byakuya to me was hesitant in his fight, lacking resolve.

maraxusofk
October 07, 2008, 04:04 PM
I have a bad feeling for the coming chapters... it's either the vaizards join Aizen or the top three espada will own gotei very badly.

why the hell would the vaizards join aizen? the last chapter of turning back the pendulum showed shinji sayign that he wants revenge on aizen for getting them kicked out of ss.

Onomatopoeia
October 07, 2008, 05:32 PM
yes, Ichigo needs a powerup. as i said, if he can keep his mask on for a while AND either Zangetsu or Ogichi make an appearance to help, he can win.i'm not saying the resolve stuff can help him win against an opponent who is truly more powerful than him. but like...the Grimmjow fight, Grimmjow wasn't vastly above Ichigo, nor was he winning the fight at any point OTHER THAN after Ichigo saw Orihime's reaction to his masked form and lost all confidence and determination.

beggining of the fight: they fought damn near equally, with Ichigo on top by a little. Grimm was landing more hits, but Ichigo's hits were more decisive and caused more damage.

middle of the fight: Ichigo was shaken, unconfident, lacking resolve and determination because he saw how he frightened Orihime, whom he was fighting to rescue, and how she didn't even look at him like he was himself, but a monster. Grimm started kicking his ass here.

end of the fight: Orihime showed her support for Ichigo and cheered for him, asking him not to get hurt any more and showing that she wasn't afraid. *cue the resolve* Ichigo went back to how he was earlier in the fight. he did NOT get any stronger, he just got his determination to win and his confidence back and fought with the same ferocity and tenacity that he fought with at the start of the battle and he came out on top and defeated Grimmjow.


plotkai is the stupidest thing i've ever heard of and does not even exist. it's just an excuse for confused fans to rest on when something can't be explained (or IS explained, and they just don't get it). they need closure and to be told exactly what is happening so they don't have to think and understand things for themselves, and when an explanation isn't straight up GIVEN verbally by a character, oh sheesh, it must be plotkai. :eyeroll that crazy Kubo Tite, he's just a big dummy and the masses of fans (most of which are in early high school) are so much smarter than him and could write a manga much better.:eyeroll

if Ichigo won a fight, he WON the fight. that's what happened. that's how it is. there are no plot excuses or arguments about it. what happens happens and that's that.

if someone, someday, actually grips their sword and says "plotkai!" and there is an explosion of text and manga pages and a big, gleaming suit of armor with "GOOD GUY" branded on the chest covers their body and the enemy just drops dead, you can call it a "plotkai" victory.



what power are you talking about? he didn't do anything spectacular besides get up after being stabbed in the heart and take his stance with zangetsu after the blade was broken, and that is explained by old man Zangetsu being right there with him, helping him.

the massive storm of spirit energy matching Kenpachi's isn't ridiculous power that he never showed before or afterward. it's been the basis of Ichigo's strength since Rukia first put a binding Kido on him that one fateful night. Ichigo has titanic amounts of spirit energy. it's nothing new, he always has it.

it just so happens that in that final charge of the fight with Kenpachi, the two of them stood there and charged up their energy in blazing torrents before charging eachother and dealing their final strikes.

nothing new or extraordinary.

Ichigo was fighting slightly less equal to GJ at the beginning of the battle. He got beat down a lot during it. When his Vizard mask started to break he reached his limt(stated in the manga and proven by examples). Now then this is where logic kicks in.

When Ichigo lost half of his mask this means one of two things. The first is that when Ichigo was at his limit he was getting beat down by GJ, he was fighting at his limit or in other words full power and that GJ had some how become powerful enough to toss Ichigo around like a rag in other words Fully Healed Ichigo<<GJ at that point. The second example which makes far more sense is that when Ichigo having lost half of his Mask that meant he lost half of his Vizard powers which is further supported by the fact that when Ichigo loses all of his Mask he loses all of his Vizard Mask. In other words because Ichigo didn’t recreate his Vizard Mask it would be impossible for him to be fighting at the level he had fought at earlier. Either of these scenarios show quite simply that Ichigo could not have gone to his Fully Healed Fighting Level and beaten GJ because that would be impossible. Not only that but your argument was that resolve couldn’t give a power up, unless your saying that Resolve can magically heal people then I don’t see how Ichigo suddenly got back to his original power?? You‘ve obviously got a problem with your argument.

And actually Ichigo got his big hits in ONCE HE WENT VIZARD( proven by multiple examples from the Manga) Inoue got scared of Ichigo transformation the moment he went Vizard. Ichigo got shaken up right their. Heck Ichigo didn’t even touch GJ before he got shooken up in fact GJ got Ichigo once before he went Vizard. Which means using your reasoning, that Ichigo was strongest against GJ only when Inoue got scared of him…problem with your argument, I think so. Next you’ll be using the Ichigo was holding back argument which I’ve already ripped apart.

Plotkai is actually quite sensible if nothing in the manga up to that point shows in any way that the person could do it, especially if it contradicts something we knew of before. Plotkai is also sensible if the main character got more powerful to beat someone or something perfect happened just for the sake of the plot. What isn’t sensible is screaming RESOLVE11!! For anything that seems even the least bit suspicious, even if resolve has not shown and does not do things like that. In fact you have absolutely no evidence that doesn’t completely contradict itself in the first when you say resolve is the answer .Besides plotkai isn’t exactly uncommon in Bleach in the first place. Next thing you know you’ll be telling me that Rukia vs. AA wasn’t plot.

“Whatever happens because it happened” HAHAHA, let me fix your statement. "Whatever happened happened to further the plot " Ichigo beat GJ to further the plot, but Kubo did a horrible job of making this make any sense.

Okay the main problem is that Ichigo has never shown the same level of power as he did against Zaraki. If he had then he would have been able to cut through Grimmjaw’s skin with ease, but he didn’t. Problem? I think so. See he cut Zaraki who has monstrous spirit level and he also cut Zaraki’s sword in two(which moments ago had cut a skyscraper in two) in other words Ichigo should have easily been making GJ bleed in Bankai but he didn’t.

xXAshisogiJizoXx
October 07, 2008, 06:08 PM
Well, Kubo can obviously find a reason for ichigo to pull through, and whether its resolve, plotkai, or otherwise, i wouldn't mind. However, i still want to see a serious character change in ichigo or orihime, and i see this fight with ulqi as a perfect example.
Either orihime can die, and ichigo becomes a serious badass ,not a sulky emo, or (preferably), ichigo gets beaten and orihime grows a pair (100% figuratively) and gains her resolve to fight, and actually tag team ulqi or beat him herself. She may have the ability to completely erase him, but thats not what i wanna see. we all forget that orihime is actually supposed to be quite athletic (her whole karate thing), combined with her powers, i can almost see her as a competent warrior.
As for anyone who thinks "ok, give her her warrior spirit, but to be able to beat ulqi??", well, her power is directly related to her emotional state so, she would only be that powerful for the sake of ichigo, not herself or anyone else, so she cannot really be seen as one of the 'heavy hitters" (although technically, she's potentially the heaviest hitter in the entire series)

Side-note, since i didn;t see anyone else mention it, im gonna call it: baragan's 6th fraccion has an elephant/mammoth type ressurection

Andonan
October 07, 2008, 06:19 PM
I'm afraid that I have to agree with Ono on this.....

There MAY BE many explanations of some of the victories in Bleach but as far as Kubo explaining them, they are far and few between....take the Ichigo Bankai issue, lots of people use Bankai's as their last resort, there ultimate fail safe, Ichigo opens with it (and get pwned if he doesn't) now why is that? You could argue that his bankai isn't complete, that there is more training for him to undergo, now I'll give in, that could happen, but why introduce something like that AFTER Kubo has introduced the Vizard and his Mask....same applies to his Shikai, Ichigo's Shikai (imo) is crap compared to a lot of people, the only move he has is Getsuga Tenshou, why not have Ichigo learn more moves and equate the power issue?
Then you have the early Arrancarr's beating down on Captains and vice captains, forcing a captain to release his bankai to defeat a Grimjaws Fraccion, but then all of a sudden an average vice captain can beat (probably the #1) Espada's fraccion as if it was nothing??
Then you have the obvious "Ichigo no mask/bankai" > Kendo Zaraki (HE USED TWO HANDS IN THAT FIGHT!) > Released Noitrotra > Ichigo WITH Mask and bankai.....
Sorry Kubo that's what we call a dick move, again i except that there COULD be explainations on these issues, but Kubo hasn't explained them and the plot has developed a long way from there, so i doubt we will....

Anyway my point has been made...

PREDICTION
Aizen is a Vizard ad uses his Shikai to cover up the mask he's wearing 24/7, infact Aizen might be some merged hollow freak, sorta like Ichigo when he was learning to control his mask......Aizen is a complete stranger due to his Shikai
s ability, we can't take ANYTHING at face value....

ryanzokuken
October 07, 2008, 08:42 PM
Ichigo was fighting slightly less equal to GJ at the beginning of the battle. He got beat down a lot during it. When his Vizard mask started to break he reached his limt(stated in the manga and proven by examples). Now then this is where logic kicks in.

When Ichigo lost half of his mask this means one of two things. The first is that when Ichigo was at his limit he was getting beat down by GJ, he was fighting at his limit or in other words full power and that GJ had some how become powerful enough to toss Ichigo around like a rag in other words Fully Healed Ichigo<<GJ at that point. The second example which makes far more sense is that when Ichigo having lost half of his Mask that meant he lost half of his Vizard powers which is further supported by the fact that when Ichigo loses all of his Mask he loses all of his Vizard Mask. In other words because Ichigo didn’t recreate his Vizard Mask it would be impossible for him to be fighting at the level he had fought at earlier. Either of these scenarios show quite simply that Ichigo could not have gone to his Fully Healed Fighting Level and beaten GJ because that would be impossible. Not only that but your argument was that resolve couldn’t give a power up, unless your saying that Resolve can magically heal people then I don’t see how Ichigo suddenly got back to his original power?? You‘ve obviously got a problem with your argument.

And actually Ichigo got his big hits in ONCE HE WENT VIZARD( proven by multiple examples from the Manga) Inoue got scared of Ichigo transformation the moment he went Vizard. Ichigo got shaken up right their. Heck Ichigo didn’t even touch GJ before he got shooken up in fact GJ got Ichigo once before he went Vizard. Which means using your reasoning, that Ichigo was strongest against GJ only when Inoue got scared of him…problem with your argument, I think so. Next you’ll be using the Ichigo was holding back argument which I’ve already ripped apart.

Plotkai is actually quite sensible if nothing in the manga up to that point shows in any way that the person could do it, especially if it contradicts something we knew of before. Plotkai is also sensible if the main character got more powerful to beat someone or something perfect happened just for the sake of the plot. What isn’t sensible is screaming RESOLVE11!! For anything that seems even the least bit suspicious, even if resolve has not shown and does not do things like that. In fact you have absolutely no evidence that doesn’t completely contradict itself in the first when you say resolve is the answer .Besides plotkai isn’t exactly uncommon in Bleach in the first place. Next thing you know you’ll be telling me that Rukia vs. AA wasn’t plot.

Secondly post where I even inferred that I could make a better Manga then Kubo, NOW. Or else your making completely baseless conjunctures that you should keep to yourself. The most I did was criticize Kubo, which maybe you didn’t realize is the point of having a discussion. So if you want a bunch of people who share your views then you should make a Fanclub and not post in a Discussion Thread.

Alright this is getting ridiculous you’re going overboard with the snarky “your only 15” comments. My age has nothing to do with this discussion it should not be incorporated in your argument, it should not be mentioned. Honestly I couldn’t give a damn if your age was 90 or 10 it would still be addressed the same way. Do not use my age as if it’s some sort of insult because I don’t care what your age is. Unless the argument in some way has to do with Age, do not mention it.

“Whatever happens because it happened” HAHAHA, let me fix your statement. "Whatever happened happened to further the plot " Ichigo beat GJ to further the plot, but Kubo did a horrible job of making this make any sense.

Okay the main problem is that Ichigo has never shown the same level of power as he did against Zaraki. If he had then he would have been able to cut through Grimmjaw’s skin with ease, but he didn’t. Problem? I think so. See he cut Zaraki who has monstrous spirit level and he also cut Zaraki’s sword in two(which moments ago had cut a skyscraper in two) in other words Ichigo should have easily been making GJ bleed in Bankai but he didn’t.

i won't hit everything, as the posts are getting long, and nobody cares to read them for 10 minutes, so i'll keep it short...

first, calmmmmm downnnnn, man. as you yourself say, these are discussions, there's no need to treat it like some debate that you might win a prize for if you win :p and even when you do make good points, remember, we're on a bleach forum on the internet. having made good points makes nobody here some cool, badass debater. no matter how many "problem with your argument" and "ripped that apart" comments we make.

anyways, first off, i don't believe (could be wrong?) it has ever been stated or even implied that vaizards lose power when pieces of the mask break off. full mask or eye-patch-sized piece of mask left, they're still in vaizard mode and still using their vaizard power. (not that we've seen any vaizard but Ichigo lose pieces of mask). you know he's lost power and is out of vaizard mode when his eyes go back to normal (no black, irises are brown instead of yellow/gold) and his voice loses the echo thing. so unless proven otherwise, full vaizard mask = partial, broken mask.


also, Ichigo wasn't having any problem cutting Grimmjow. EVERY time his sword touched him (not dodged or blocked by the elbow blades) it resulted in large wounds for Grimm.

horizontal chest slice, grinding cut down Grimmjow's arm, downward slash to the body, stab to the gut/side, etc.

Onomatopoeia
October 07, 2008, 09:09 PM
i won't hit everything, as the posts are getting long, and nobody cares to read them for 10 minutes, so i'll keep it short...

first, calmmmmm downnnnn, man. as you yourself say, these are discussions, there's no need to treat it like some debate that you might win a prize for if you win :p and even when you do make good points, remember, we're on a bleach forum on the internet. having made good points makes nobody here some cool, badass debater. no matter how many "problem with your argument" and "ripped that apart" comments we make.

anyways, first off, i don't believe (could be wrong?) it has ever been stated or even implied that vaizards lose power when pieces of the mask break off. full mask or eye-patch-sized piece of mask left, they're still in vaizard mode and still using their vaizard power. (not that we've seen any vaizard but Ichigo lose pieces of mask). you know he's lost power and is out of vaizard mode when his eyes go back to normal (no black, irises are brown instead of yellow/gold) and his voice loses the echo thing. so unless proven otherwise, full vaizard mask = partial, broken mask.


also, Ichigo wasn't having any problem cutting Grimmjow. EVERY time his sword touched him (not dodged or blocked by the elbow blades) it resulted in large wounds for Grimm.

horizontal chest slice, grinding cut down Grimmjow's arm, downward slash to the body, stab to the gut/side, etc.

Look I'm just using common sense here. Ichigo's mask is at it's limit when it cracks and when it breaks completely he loses all of his power. I figure the midway point with his mask breaking is the midway point of his power with VZ mode. Also I should add that Ichigo when GJ said that he was at his limit, immediatly recreated his mask and then said he wasn't. I think this points that Ichigo's mask is key to his power level. And the fact that Ichigo's Iris's were completely dark when he fought GJ in Fight 2 yet his mask broke and he immeadiatly lost his VZ powers, but we never saw a place where his Iris's started to change back to it's normal color.


Ichigo vs GJ fight one not fight 2 or 3. Ichigo was in Bankai I think he should've easily been able to cut through GJ skin. And I think he only even damaged GJ was when he was in VZ mode.

And the reason I got pissed is that I'm in the double digits of forumites who've used my age as if it's some kind of insult. I was getting steadily more mad at that...and I just blew up.

And I think you've become a lot more mellow since you flamed me:D

ryanzokuken
October 07, 2008, 09:26 PM
i wasn't targetting you and your age as a flame or insult, i was just saying (because it's true) that most bleach fans are early to mid highschool age, and when those fans start critisizing Kubo's writing, it's a little ridiculous. as if they could do better or handle writing and drawing a manga themselves any better than he, or at all.

basically, i just don't believe in critisizing the manga itself, unless it's getting to a point where it's ridiculously retarded, like naruto has gotten since post rescue Gaara arc.

and i don't believe in using the plot as an excuse for the good guys and/or main character winning and surviving. that just seems silly to me. i say, if it happened, it happened, take it as it is and enjoy it, rather than picking it apart and reducing it to inconsistencies and poor story writing.

and yes, as much as it pushes your buttons, i saw nothing wrong with Rukia's victory over AA. she won by circumstantial luck against an opponent out of her league, yes, but chalk it up to the luck that he just so happened to be the perfect distance from her and she just so happened to have a handy shikai ability meant exactly for a situation like that which recreates the broken blade of her sword with ice, rather than chalking it up to plot.


and as for the first fight, i don't think it was a matter of Ichigo not being able to cut Grimm's skin, but rather, the sad fact that he couldn't land a hit on him. i don't remember the edge of his sword ever even making contact with Grimm other than Grimm catching it in his hand. (plenty of characters have done this, it doesn't mean they can't be cut) Grimm just basically beat Ichigo silly in the first fight.

hajialibaig
October 08, 2008, 08:11 AM
If if I didn't know better, I would say Ichigo is starting to exhibit saiyajin abilites:

1-He seems to be getting strong everytime Orihime heals him
2-His mask just went from an 11 second time limit against Ulquiorra fight to minutes against Grimmjow fight (in a matter of 20 minutes; cause Orihime healed him)

Now, this has no explaination. Feel free to enlighten me though.

ryanzokuken
October 08, 2008, 08:59 AM
well, i don't think he kept it on for the full 11 seconds against Ulq. he thought he had it wrapped up and took it off on his own. then Ulq came through the smoke with nothing more than ripped clothes, and Ichigo didn't have a chance to put it back on.


but you're right, he didn't undergo any more training after his 11 second masked fight with Grimm (their second fight) and yet when he faced him the third time, he kept it on for several minutes. there has been no explanation. i guess maybe he just concentrated harder and held it on for longer because he absolutely had to?

hajialibaig
October 08, 2008, 09:14 AM
well, Ichigo's mask reached its limit against Ulquiorra as pieces of his mask are seen falling down; he didn't take it off on his own.

And then when Ulquiorra fired a cero at him, Ichigo was barely able to pull off his mask for a fraction of a second to block it; i.e. his mask no longer was available as he has used up his 11 second limit


Link (Ichigo's mask is seen being shattered to pieces):

Click Here (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-271-page-3.html)

So yea, amazes me that he was able to put it together for minutes after getting healed, when he already tried so hard to increase his limit during Vaizard training. I think it took him a month to reach an 11 second limit, and yet, out of no where, he pulled out minutes. This has plothole/inconsistency written all over it

En Yang Ji
October 08, 2008, 12:02 PM
well, Ichigo's mask reached its limit against Ulquiorra as pieces of his mask are seen falling down; he didn't take it off on his own.

And then when Ulquiorra fired a cero at him, Ichigo was barely able to pull off his mask for a fraction of a second to block it; i.e. his mask no longer was available as he has used up his 11 second limit


Link (Ichigo's mask is seen being shattered to pieces):

Click Here (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-271-page-3.html)

So yea, amazes me that he was able to put it together for minutes after getting healed, when he already tried so hard to increase his limit during Vaizard training. I think it took him a month to reach an 11 second limit, and yet, out of no where, he pulled out minutes. This has plothole/inconsistency written all over it

If Ichigo did spend 11 seconds in vizard mode during his battle with Ulquiorra, than put on the mask after that for an instant, that shows that he could at least do it.

It's unknown why Ichigo couldn't keep the mask on for longer than 11 seconds before. It's possible that Ichigo could of kept the mask on longer, but was afraid to do so, because there was a chance that ogichi would take over if he extended the time limit.

hajialibaig
October 08, 2008, 12:09 PM
If Ichigo did spend 11 seconds in vizard mode during his battle with Ulquiorra, than put on the mask after that for an instant, that shows that he could at least do it.

It's unknown why Ichigo couldn't keep the mask on for longer than 11 seconds before. It's possible that Ichigo could of kept the mask on longer, but was afraid to do so, because there was a chance that ogichi would take over if he extended the time limit.

He had no choice to whether keep it on or take it off, the mask shattered since he used up his 11 second time limit. Him being afraid of ogichi doesn't even come into the equation..

And him putting on his mask for fraction of a sec was the last desperate move he had...afterall, it wouldn't make sense for him to just put it on to block the cero and get pwned..he had no choice

En Yang Ji
October 08, 2008, 12:24 PM
He had no choice to whether keep it on or take it off, the mask shattered since he used up his 11 second time limit. Him being afraid of ogichi doesn't even come into the equation..

And him putting on his mask for fraction of a sec was the last desperate move he had...afterall, it wouldn't make sense for him to just put it on to block the cero and get pwned..he had no choice

It's unknown whether Ichigo could of kept it on longer if he tried harder. Ichigo's had a relieved expression on his face after he shot off GT, because he thought he won. This may be the reason why the mask broke or it could be that he was just too afraid to use the mask longer.

Remember when Ichigo was fighting the 10th Espada? Instead of letting Ogichi take over, he let the 10th Espada beat him brutally. He could of have even killed Ichigo, but Ichigo was concerned with his inner hollow taking over.

This shows to what exent Ichigo is willing to go, to stop his inner hollow from taking over.

Also if Ichigo has the ability to put the mask on after the 11 second time limit, even for a instant, it shows that 11 seconds isn't Ichigo's absolute limit. Ichigo's time limit in vizard mode depends on something that's within Ichigo's power.

hajialibaig
October 08, 2008, 01:09 PM
Remember when Ichigo was fighting the 10th Espada? Instead of letting Ogichi take over, he let the 10th Espada beat him brutally. He could of have even killed Ichigo, but Ichigo was concerned with his inner hollow taking over.

Okay you got it all wrong. Ichigo wasn't the one who let "himself" get beat up by the Espada instead of letting Ogichi take over. It was the other way around:

Ogichi wanted to take over
Ichigo denied him
Ogichi froze Ichigo's body in return of the unfavourable answer
10th Espada took advantage of the situation and beat Ichigo

So it was Ogichi who let the 10th Espada beat up Ichigo for not letting him take over......



This shows to what exent Ichigo is willing to go, to stop his inner hollow from taking over.

Completely wrong as I explained above.




Also if Ichigo has the ability to put the mask on after the 11 second time limit, even for a instant, it shows that 11 seconds isn't Ichigo's absolute limit. Ichigo's time limit in vizard mode depends on something that's within Ichigo's power.

Think about it this way.. Even if Ichigo was able to put on his mask for a fraction of a second to block the cero as a last desperate choice, his limit is more less 11 seconds (i.e. 11.131 == 11 more or less)

Then at Grimmjow's fight, that 11.131 something jumped to MINUTES..
That's an astronomical unexplained CHANGE

En Yang Ji
October 08, 2008, 04:18 PM
Okay you got it all wrong. Ichigo wasn't the one who let "himself" get beat up by the Espada instead of letting Ogichi take over. It was the other way around:

Ogichi wanted to take over
Ichigo denied him
Ogichi froze Ichigo's body in return of the unfavourable answer
10th Espada took advantage of the situation and beat Ichigo

So it was Ogichi who let the 10th Espada beat up Ichigo for not letting him take over......



Completely wrong as I explained above.




Think about it this way.. Even if Ichigo was able to put on his mask for a fraction of a second to block the cero as a last desperate choice, his limit is more less 11 seconds (i.e. 11.131 == 11 more or less)

Then at Grimmjow's fight, that 11.131 something jumped to MINUTES..
That's an astronomical unexplained CHANGE

That's one way to intepret what happened. I still believe it was Ichigo's decision, to let himself be taken over or be beaten.

Look at this: http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/193/16/

Ichigo said "I won't let you come out this time...You're the one who's screwing me up right now...Damn you!!!"

Even when being beaten, he would rather not have Ogichi controlling him. The 10th Espada said "Die than!! Die you stupid brat", "It's over shitface!!, I'll make you disappear in an instant!!" If it wasn't for Urahara, Ichigo would have died, with the next attack.

About the time limit of the mask, it's not known why Ichigo has 11 seconds as his time limit. Even if the increase in time is unexplainable at the moment, it's possible there could be a realistic explaination of Ichigo's power increase. It all depends on what are the deciding factors when it comes to the time limit. It could be Instinct, resolve, or something new. Since we don't know what are the deciding factors, there's really no way to determine if it's unrealistic or not.

Onomatopoeia
October 08, 2008, 06:10 PM
I don't like to adress the giant jump between the 11 second mark to over 15 minutes simply because I don't know how. I can't really figure out an arguement that doesn't consist of me saying "WTF???!! How'd he do that???" which isn't the best strategy.