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hatsuharupeace
October 03, 2008, 01:18 AM
The chapter is out. You can get it here (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40835).

If you haven't seen the goodies yet, you can check them out in the Spoiler Pics and Summaries (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1051987#post1051987) thread. This is where you can discuss all about them. No spamming allowed.

But remember: NO SPOILERS OUTSIDE THE SPOILER THREADS. This rule will be strictly enforced. Please respect those that don't want to be spoiled. Thanks.

liquidsky
October 08, 2008, 04:23 AM
Nice leaked spoiler pics, in fact I think that's the whole darn chapter.

Hitsugaya vs. Halibelle just doesn't work out for me.....was hoping for a Soi Fong vs. Hali catfight... :T and then a certain tanned comrade of Soi Fong jumps into help her.... that would've been so neat.... (fantasizing a cat fight consisting of Soi Fong, Yoruichi and Hali)

ascalon
October 08, 2008, 04:41 AM
That would've been way too predictable/cliche. The match ups thus far have been horribly predictable enough.

patz
October 08, 2008, 05:22 AM
How is Matsumoto gonna fight Halibel's 3 fraccions? Where is Yamamoto's lieutenant?

When Halibel ans Startk already start fighting, I think this means they're not #1.

King Mordred
October 08, 2008, 05:56 AM
Stark speaks in the spoilers, but there isnt a translation yet, maybe well get an idea from the trans who is what number in this issue.

taimoor2
October 08, 2008, 06:04 AM
Something stark did in this chapter made me realize he is not really the 1st espada. He asked Ukitake and Kyoruku to just pretend to fight instead of fighting. Now you might say it’s because of personality but I don’t think so.
When you face a stronger opponent or one of equal strength, you don’t ask them to pretend to fight coz that’s just insulting them and showing cowardice. If the same thing is done with a weaker opponent, it makes sense but here it is totally inappropriate!
Either Stark is weak or he is just so ridiculously strong that Ukitake and Kyoruku are not even remotely close to his power level! As the later scenario is unlikely, Stark is just not first espada!

King Mordred
October 08, 2008, 06:23 AM
Halibel is 3 because she is fighting Hitsugaya, sorry but he's kind of weak no offense to Hitsu fans. So Barragan is an Emperor, God, and King, he is closest to being 1, if Stark wants to wait for the other fights to finish he could be 1: if Barragan fights too, because if his remaining 2 fraccion are killed he won't sit there and take it. While Stark is standing around, his laziness could prove him to be 1, lazy people wait.

notBowen
October 08, 2008, 06:30 AM
Another week where nothing happens. Like, at all. God damn I wish he would pick up the pace a bit. Is there a single attack in this entire chapter?

wooticus
October 08, 2008, 06:41 AM
i just think stark is an all over lazy guy.. he has no intention to fight and maybe he has even no grunge against shinigami.. he seems to actually doesn't even want to fight them.


but halibel vs hitsu?? never thought of that.. unless toshiro has some nice new moves this fight will be quite unequal.. and why does rangiku fight three fraccions while soifon fights one?!

i like this spoilers

Yans86
October 08, 2008, 06:49 AM
Another week where nothing happens. Like, at all. God damn I wish he would pick up the pace a bit. Is there a single attack in this entire chapter?

I think the chapter is good.....Matsumoto against 3 fraccion???she is crazy.....in the end she is going to show bankai!!!!

Soi Fon has to give us a quick win or she won't be at Matsumoto's level...

Halibel against Hitsu???Halibel has absolutely to kick his ass!!!!!!think about it,if Hitsu win all alone against her...even if she is no.3,is going to put Hitsu beyon Ulquiorra and Ichigo+bankai+hollow powers......

Stark and Kyouraku....waitin for them ih ih ih ih if there weren't Yammaji,sure they would sit for a tea,waitin the others fights!!!

Darek Khort
October 08, 2008, 06:54 AM
I am well and truly disappointed. Looks like a chapter where hardly anything happens.
I really wonder how he is going to do the fights. If Kubo decides to switch to Ichigo at this moment...then...darn. Spending two chapters introducing the fight set-up, then moving to Ichigo would be bad.

I really hope there's more to it than this...but looking at the number of pages doesn't seem like it.

hollowdemon
October 08, 2008, 07:08 AM
by the spoilers we cant exactly say stark is weak right away, i agree with what was mentioned above. That stark might be ridiculously strong which explains the part where he said to kyouraku and ukitake to just pretend fight until the others are done because he might be able to destroy them easily ( then again we havent seen the full power of ukitake and kyouraku ).

im kind of wondering what aizen, gin and tousen are doing though since once again theyre in a position of just waiting
either way at least its making progress slowly and surely into the battles :D

hajialibaig
October 08, 2008, 07:56 AM
holy cow, just looked at the spoiler translation and pics. Looks like an epic chapter, the best in a while! Can't wait to read it on friday

davidvoyage
October 08, 2008, 08:18 AM
hmm... I hope those 3 top espadas won't disappoint me. There is NO WAY halibel will lose against little hitsugaya...Come on, she's stronger than Ulquiorra!

burningrubble
October 08, 2008, 08:40 AM
And she's obviously so much stronger than Nnoitra, or else he would have had the same problem with her as he did with Nel..."there's no way a woman should be stronger than a man on the battlefield!" So Halibel should beat little Hitsugaya into submission also...

hajialibaig
October 08, 2008, 08:57 AM
Hitsugaya who had trouble beating one of Grimmjow's fraccion
Hitsugaya who has to release Bankai in every little fight, and his shikai had no effect on Espada #10.......

Halibel will wipe the floor with him

wooticus
October 08, 2008, 08:58 AM
no hitsu will win, because of matsumoto he knows her weak point --> big titties

damn, why does toshiro always have to do with the big breasted ladies^^

Akihito
October 08, 2008, 09:24 AM
i would be so happy if masumoto had a bankai, frankly with all the female captains who we know have bankai i wanna see one of the actually using a bankai i mean wtf, SHOW IT TO ME

TheChosenOne
October 08, 2008, 09:42 AM
Just saw the new spoilers, looks to be a great chapter. Glad to see everyone ready to fight, wonder what Barragan and Yamma will do, while all the other fights are happening. Hopefully we see something from both of them. Glad that Stark still keeps to his lazy attitude even in the middle of all these powerful captains. I wonder if Hitsu has improved vastly that he is a threat to Halibel, considering he had trouble will Luppi. The only way I see Hitsu winning is he has the perfect bankai to counter Halibel's release ability, like Byakuya had with Zomari. :)

kkck
October 08, 2008, 09:43 AM
I get the feeling that even now the espada have the advantage. I think that pretty soon the captains are going to get reinforcements from huecomundo and probably vizards.

patedecarne
October 08, 2008, 09:49 AM
Haha, Hitsu vs Halibel isn't even a fight, is just a child's play, if Hali went for real Hitsu won't even see what'll hit him before his death...

Other than that, seems to be a hell of chapter: nor Shunsui or Stark will fight with full powers and Barragan is most likely numero uno, because he still haven't draw his sword...

Tsukisama
October 08, 2008, 09:58 AM
Interesting spoilers. If Hitsugaya manages to beat Halibel in some way (even by the perfect counter cliche that Kubo has been using up until now), I might just stop reading the manga. There should be no way in HM that Hitsugaya should even cause Halibel to break a sweat. Since she is facing Hitsu, this kind of casts a large shadow of doubt on Halibel being anything above #3 in my mind, but perhaps there is still hope if Halibel squashes him quickly.


Other than that, seems to be a hell of chapter: nor Shunsui or Stark will fight with full powers and Barragan is most likely numero uno, because he still haven't draw his sword...

From what I understood of the spoilers, Kyouraku was rejecting the idea of holding back, and then Stark in turn agreed to also not hold back. Thus, I think they are going to go all out. I am thinking that Stark will be a bitt too strong for Shunsui and probably force Ukitake to join.

As for Barragan, I expect more of him just sitting around watching his fraccion getting decimated. (Well, perhaps Oomaeda's opponent might do fairly well. I wouldn't mind seeing him be the first casualty on the side of the good guys.) I thik Yama will also sit back. (For the person who asked where Sasakibe is, my guess is that he is hovering behind Yamamoto like he usually does.)

patedecarne
October 08, 2008, 10:09 AM
Tsuki, I don't think Kubo will do this, for the all readers's sake: From all the cliches so far, Hitsu winning would be worst, one that cannot be explained with any kind of action or thought.... And yes, Halibel should be able to win without using about 20% of her full power... To tell the truth, i'm not that worried with this issue, because I know that Kubo won't dissapoint us with it^^

but maybe Kubo is setting up the scenario for the vaizard's arrival, something similar to that occasion in HM, where Unohana, Kenpachi, Byakuya and Mayuri just arrived in time to save Ichigo and co.

Yamma and Barragan seemsto be idle right now, if anything they'll fight each other, but as the remaining warriors, with this chapter I got the impression that the bad guys will gain the upper hand here... preparing the stage for the Vaizards...

Eye of the tiger
October 08, 2008, 10:17 AM
Nice set up chapter. On Hitsu vs Halibel, I think it may turn out to be a good fight after all. Remember what Kenpachi said in HM that Yamma had everyone on a training overdrive to get ready for the winter war. Its been stated that Hitsu is still very much a novice, captain-in-training and that he has a huge amount of untapped potential. Maybe he's dug into that and now has more power in his offense/defense or new tricks/combos. He might still match Halibel, but I too think it'll be too much if he just defeats her.. I think most of the captains are gonna need assistance to beat the espada.

Zhee
October 08, 2008, 10:20 AM
Soi Fon is up against one measly fraccion?
And I think Halibel is out of the running for the top 2 spots.

Eye of the tiger
October 08, 2008, 10:20 AM
And I think that the espada being defeated will still serve Aizen's true goal and he'd still go to the king's realm leaving all of SS staring. Plus, I bet Kubo's got something big up his sleeve, like maybe a bunch of real vasto lordes appearing and giving Aizen the ride to King's realm via actual SS.

ShuheiKazeshini
October 08, 2008, 10:23 AM
Does barragan even have a zanpaktou???:blink i dont recall seeing him with one.... :oh

Tsukisama
October 08, 2008, 10:26 AM
Tsuki, I don't think Kubo will do this, for the all readers's sake: From all the cliches so far, Hitsu winning would be worst, one that cannot be explained with any kind of action or thought.... And yes, Halibel should be able to win without using about 20% of her full power... To tell the truth, i'm not that worried with this issue, because I know that Kubo won't dissapoint us with it^^

I hope so, but Hitsugaya is a bit of a fan-favorite and I am just a bit worried that he might pull a Kendopachi and give Hitsugaya some until now unmentioned boost. That would seriously disappoint me, but for now, I have still have faith Halibel's superiority and Kubo's competence.


but maybe Kubo is setting up the scenario for the vaizard's arrival, something similar to that occasion in HM, where Unohana, Kenpachi, Byakuya and Mayuri just arrived in time to save Ichigo and co.

I could also see the vizard's showing up like the four captains did in HM, but if they did that, then Aizen's forces would probably lose there. Thus, either Aizen has some ulterior "haha, fooled you all again!" moment coming, or it would mean the end of the manga, and considering how powerful the vizards should be, I find it hard to believe that Aizen has a hidden surprise that momentous to counter the vizards (although, if he has like 10 or so VLs lying in wait, then he might be able to pull it off).

The vizards arriving like the HM captains did, though, would also disappoint me, since it would be another example of Kubo using a repetitive plot device. I am hoping that Kubo finds some way to introduce the vizards into the plot in an original way.


Yamma and Barragan seemsto be idle right now, if anything they'll fight each other, but as the remaining warriors, with this chapter I got the impression that the bad guys will gain the upper hand here... preparing the stage for the Vaizards...

Maybe they will fight, but I can't imagine Soi Fon becoming too tired after her encounter with the fraccion. I could easily picture her going from the fraccion and then cockily going after Barragan next. If she would do poorly against him, then I could see Yamamoto stepping in, or maybe the vizards will arrive by that point.

I just want to see Yamamoto against Aizen more than against an espada. If Yamamoto faces any sort of difficulty against an espada (which I would think he should to be make the fight at least somewhat enjoyable for the readers), then I would be disappointed ant that would mean Aizen is definitely the most powerful being known in the manga at this point. Yamamoto's power is still mysterious at the moment, and he is still the only one on the SS team that has a possibility of defeating Aizen. I would not want to see that taken away so callously.
[hr]

Does barragan even have a zanpaktou???:blink i dont recall seeing him with one.... :oh

He probably has one somewhere. Even if you don't see one, it is best to assume that he has one, because it would not make sense for him not to have one. Yamamoto's is disguised as a cane. Perhaps Barragan's is in a disguise form as well.

ShuheiKazeshini
October 08, 2008, 10:31 AM
He probably has one somewhere. Even if you don't see one, it is best to assume that he has one, because it would not make sense for him not to have one. Yamamoto's is disguised as a cane. Perhaps Barragan's is in a disguise form as well.

yeaa datz wat i thought..he will probably materialize it or maybe itz dat sun emblem belt thing he has around his waist idk but im anticipating:)
[hr]

He probably has one somewhere. Even if you don't see one, it is best to assume that he has one, because it would not make sense for him not to have one. Yamamoto's is disguised as a cane. Perhaps Barragan's is in a disguise form as well.

yeaa datz wat i thought..he will probably materialize it or maybe itz dat sun emblem belt thing he has around his waist idk but im anticipating:)

sryy i dont kno how to quote:D

gold349
October 08, 2008, 10:38 AM
I could see Halibell doing an aizen on Hitsu....thats the kind of difference I imagine between these 2.

So is this making Baragan no1 espada...as if I care.

I can still see the captains being beaten sadly, though I don't know what the thing what masamoto is, is she like taking on 3 fraccion?...then again there is still Cpt Bear and other VC around.

kweci
October 08, 2008, 10:42 AM
I just want to see Yamamoto against Aizen more than against an espada. If Yamamoto faces any sort of difficulty against an espada (which I would think he should to be make the fight at least somewhat enjoyable for the readers), then I would be disappointed ant that would mean Aizen is definitely the most powerful being known in the manga at this point. Yamamoto's power is still mysterious at the moment, and he is still the only one on the SS team that has a possibility of defeating Aizen. I would not want to see that taken away so callously.


well said. although, my understanding from barragan asking who their leader was in the spoiler was that he was seeking to fight yama, but i may have completely misunderstood that.

about ppl not believing hitsugaya is matched up with halibel, according to the bleach databooks, hitsugaya is the strongest after yama, shunsui, ukitake, unohana, byakuya (i think; and aizen, of course), and since the other 5 are otherwise occupied, it only makes sense. I think komamura will end up helping him pretty soon. this way we have -roughly- the equivalents of 2 captains per espada (if yama indeed fights against barragan). I have this nagging suspicion that the top espada might not be ranked in the conventional way the rest are.. i don't know, i see no reason for the tension (barragan telling halibel she is disrespecting him, and lilinet being mad at stark when barragan took charge etc...) unless they are somehow equivalent, except stark doesnt care, halibel is too cool and devoted to aizen, and barragan is the only petty one who wants to assert himself... i would flip a shit if they all had a '1' tattooed on them (sort of like college rankings when it goes 1, 1, 3, 4, 4, 4, 7,lol)

we have to have faith in kubo that he will do right by all the characters (especially soifon!)

Bakatron
October 08, 2008, 10:56 AM
I reckon I know why Soi Fong is up against a Fraccion. We've yet to see her Shikai do the two-hit-kill in the manga (though it happened in some filler and at least one of the movies). Give her a Fraccion, that lets her show off, then help someone else (Toushiro?) with a Ban Kai.

I am vaguely suspicious of a Matsumoto Ban Kai...

Painpwns00
October 08, 2008, 11:07 AM
Hitsugaya is the most popular for some reason. he's going to pull a sasuke to win. I want halibel to win, but hitsugays is Kubo's biggest money maker so he's not going to die
[hr]

well said. although, my understanding from barragan asking who their leader was in the spoiler was that he was seeking to fight yama, but i may have completely misunderstood that.

about ppl not believing hitsugaya is matched up with halibel, according to the bleach databooks, hitsugaya is the strongest after yama, shunsui, ukitake, unohana, byakuya (i think; and aizen, of course), and since the other 5 are otherwise occupied, it only makes sense. I think komamura will end up helping him pretty soon. this way we have -roughly- the equivalents of 2 captains per espada (if yama indeed fights against barragan). I have this nagging suspicion that the top espada might not be ranked in the conventional way the rest are.. i don't know, i see no reason for the tension (barragan telling halibel she is disrespecting him, and lilinet being mad at stark when barragan took charge etc...) unless they are somehow equivalent, except stark doesnt care, halibel is too cool and devoted to aizen, and barragan is the only petty one who wants to assert himself... i would flip a shit if they all had a '1' tattooed on them (sort of like college rankings when it goes 1, 1, 3, 4, 4, 4, 7,lol)

we have to have faith in kubo that he will do right by all the characters (especially soifon!)

you use those dumb data books XD, why do you belivie everything you read XD

nokozon
October 08, 2008, 11:18 AM
There are a lot of obvious oddities going on here. Kubo must have something he is aiming for.


- Hitsugaya vs Halibel. Everybody knows this is wack. Even if you go by the databooks, Hitsugaya is outmatched. But wait! There's a new force in town! It's called YEN! And Hitsugaya generates a lot of it. Let's see if Hitsugaya can write a check that Halibel can't cash.

- Soifon vs one fraccion, Matsumoto vs three... thats wack.

- Stark wants to pretend, while Barragan asks "who's your daddy?!" What have we learned about characters in Bleach who claim to be the shit? (Remember, "Nobody can cut this body of mine")

- Ukitake and Lillinet are sitting out. Compassion for children and the elderly?(remember, he is still chronically ill)

- Yamamoto and Barragan are going to fight by proxy, apparently. These guys love to stand around and watch.

Masaki195
October 08, 2008, 12:15 PM
- Hitsugaya vs Halibel. Everybody knows this is wack. Even if you go by the databooks, Hitsugaya is outmatched. But wait! There's a new force in town! It's called YEN! And Hitsugaya generates a lot of it. Let's see if Hitsugaya can write a check that Halibel can't cash.


Have you seen the data book? Hitsugaya has one of the best score there. Take another look at them.

I think he maybe able to beat her, it isn't that far fetched. I mean Hitsugaya never had show his best yet. He is strong because he almost killed Luppi with one move, who was the second 6th Espada.

Also Toshiro might be the only one that can beat her, Maybe Halibel's released form's weakness is Ice. Or maybe he found out his true form of his Bankai, like Byakuya.

He is a child prodigy. :amuse

Kyuugetsu
October 08, 2008, 12:19 PM
Actually, even though I'm not a Hitsu fan and I actually don't care for the attention he gets, there was something that suggests that Hitsu may be able to, probably at most, force Halibel to release.

When he fought Luppi, he seemed outmatched at first, but then summoned enough power to trap Luppi in an ice prison. He was using the water in the atmosphere. So, in theory, Hitsugaya's power can increase exponentially if he is given the time to utilize the surrounding atmosphere and seeing as there is no other human around, he doesn't have to worry about it having adverse effects on the living.

mc404
October 08, 2008, 12:25 PM
Let me see if I get this right, Ichigo with his Bankai can't even touch Ulquiera who is number 4 and that icy boy in his Shikai crosses swords with Halibel who's above Ulquiera. Makes perfect sense if you're braindead.

I wish these fan services would stay out of the main story. Halibel shouldn't even lift a finger to kill that kid. What's happening here. Why is everything is getting upside down in this chapter?

hajialibaig
October 08, 2008, 12:31 PM
I want Halibel to do an Aizen on Hitsugaya ASAP, so that we can put an end to all of this "Hitsugaya-can-win" rant that doesn't make any sense

The guy needs a Bankai against the 10th Espada, how do you expect him to stand against one of the top#3 where the difference in power is like comparing a tiger to a cat
[hr]
I hope Halibel would let one of her fraccions take on Hitsugaya instead.. the guy is out of her league..

nicobarten
October 08, 2008, 12:34 PM
Hitsugaya will be beaten for sure.... just think about it, an espada who's stronger then even Ulquiorra (which is kicking ichigo's ass with mask right now) against a young captain which has been beaten against lower enemies....

Die Toshiro!

Masaki195
October 08, 2008, 12:39 PM
Let me see if I get this right, Ichigo with his Bankai can't even touch Ulquiera who is number 4 and that icy boy in his Shikai crosses swords with Halibel who's above Ulquiera. Makes perfect sense if you're braindead.

I wish these fan services would stay out of the main story. Halibel shouldn't even lift a finger to kill that kid. What's happening here. Why is everything is getting upside down in this chapter?

You do know Toshiro has a Bankai too right? :eyeroll

It really matter what their weakness is, look at the 8th Espada. No one and I mean no could beat him except Kurotsuchi. (also Aizen)

He is the 8th, yet he could beat a lot of the stronger Espada.

and remember this is a Shonen Manga, The impossible can become possible.:D

Oni Shinigami
October 08, 2008, 12:46 PM
It really matter what their weakness is, look at the 8th Espada. No one and I mean no could beat him except Kurotsuchi.

urahara could have defeated szayel, he's smarter than Mayuri.

and I too think Hitsugaya is going to get obliterated.

And if rangiku is fighting fraccion even close to the level Shuuhei,Ikkaku,Kira,and Yamuchika fought and defeats them all. Her Bankai must truly be one which will propel her into captain status in the future.

Soifon is whack fighting a fraccion that gave her a dirty look.

mc404
October 08, 2008, 12:50 PM
You do know Toshiro has a Bankai too right? :eyeroll

It really matter what their weakness is, look at the 8th Espada. No one and I mean no could beat him except Kurotsuchi. (also Aizen)

He is the 8th, yet he could beat a lot of the stronger Espada.

and remember this is a Shonen Manga, The impossible can become possible.:D

I think you misunderstood my post. I don't care if Icy boy has a Bankai, he is in his Shikai right now and Halibel is way more powerful than him. Halibel shouldn't even draw her sword for the fight. That's my point. Ulquiera didn't even bother to draw his sword for Masked Ichigo the first time they met. Why on earth should one of the weakest captains suddenly get one of the most important fights?

Either ichigo is being portrait as a weak character or as I said things are upside down right now in the Manga.

hajialibaig
October 08, 2008, 01:00 PM
Hitsugaya doesn't stand a chance against Ichigo, how could he beat Halibel. Just think about it. :D

Raizen
October 08, 2008, 01:01 PM
No doubt in my mind hitsu will lose, but he will put up a really decent fight. People underestimate him soooo much, its funny. Like ken has said, all captains have been on rigorous training, perhaps they have a hyperbolic time chamber LOL. But really, of all the captains hitsu has the most space to gain strength considering how young he is. His strength could have increased exponentially. When he encountered luppi, he beat him w/ one move and that is b4 the training yama forced on the captains.

Now it seems shunsui is fighting starks alone. Shows how strong shunsui and ukitake is.

I totally see soifon obliterating the fraccion and then attacking barragan. Then for some reason she and hitsu will switch and it will be speed vs speed and young vs old :p

Matsumoto has always been considered one of the strongest VC, maybe she has achieved bankai

Starky-08
October 08, 2008, 01:07 PM
I hope Halibel beats Hitsugaya, even though I'm a fan of Hitsu I can't see him winning, he barely bet Luppi but then again luppi cheap shotted him because he had like 8 arms, so yeah.....

I also hope the 2nd espada is revealed before the 3rd or 1st.

Masaki195
October 08, 2008, 01:10 PM
urahara could have defeated szayel, he's smarter than Mayuri.

Unless he replace his inside beforehand he would die in ten second.

and there is no way he would know to do that, Mayuri knew he had to do that because he could see what Uryu could because of the things he planted in him.

I'm just going to say before you guys start bitching about how stupid this idea is, way and see what happens first. I believe Tite Kubo knows what he is doing.

hajialibaig
October 08, 2008, 01:14 PM
I just wanna see Hitsugaya get beat up real bad, to put his weak powers into perspective, once and for all.

Much like how Aizen pwned him... that reminds me, I gotta watch that scene again..lol.

Raizen
October 08, 2008, 01:25 PM
I just wanna see Hitsugaya get beat up real bad, to put his weak powers into perspective, once and for all.

Much like how Aizen pwned him... that reminds me, I gotta watch that scene again..lol.
Aizen can basically trick anyone with his cheap ass sword.

IMO there are only a few captains capable of fighting on par w/ aizen:yama, shunsui, ukitake, and unohana. That means these captains are at least as strong as the top espadas or stronger.

Hitsu has the most powerful ice based zanpaktou and the most potential. He should have gotten exponentially stronger since the last time. And he owned Luppi IMO. Luppi was being cocky and hitsu used it to his advantage. Luppi was basically hitsu's bitch until the negaccion came

ryanzokuken
October 08, 2008, 01:32 PM
bankai or not, if Rangiku handles three fraccion where captain Komamura used his bankai on ONE, that's completely absurd. unless Halibel's fraccion are complete piles and the worst of all fraccion.

ninjaman
October 08, 2008, 02:07 PM
After reading all this nonsense about Hitsugaya will be able to beat Halibel i had to register and ask if you guys are retarded? the only reason he won against lupi is because that he/she didnt really pay attention to him so he got a cheap shot to almost kill he/she. I want him to get owned so bad dunno why people think he is strong.

and At the guy above me i agree with you 100%

Raizen
October 08, 2008, 02:38 PM
After reading all this nonsense about Hitsugaya will be able to beat Halibel i had to register and ask if you guys are retarded? the only reason he won against lupi is because that he/she didnt really pay attention to him so he got a cheap shot to almost kill he/she. I want him to get owned so bad dunno why people think he is strong.

and At the guy above me i agree with you 100%
I don't think tha hitsu will beat halibel nor will he get utterly owned.
In the fight w/ luppi, he played luppi like a violin. He wasn't injured he faked it so he could trap luppi. Had he need to he could have come back and attack. He was smart to play w/ luppi's cokiness

IMO, hitsu and soifon will switch enemies due to some reason.
As for matsumoto, ther are other VC too like the 1st division VC

Seriph2
October 08, 2008, 02:55 PM
The biggest problem and the problem that EVERYONE has with bleach currently is not that the powers are skewed is that the author ( forgot his name lol ) is relying TOO much on situational matchups where for instance mayuri conveniently matches up PERFECTLY with the number 8 espada I believe it was, or byakuya vs his espada. Its cool and ok to see maybe once or twice but you have got to believe that since hitsu aka ice boy is matched up against such a powerful foe that there is more to it than just overall strength.

Now in the end it ends up making it somewhat believable that "so and so" pulled off a win because they just as an example had the matching element (think lightning vs earth) but it starts to get cheesy and old and robs the reader in my opinion and is the reason everyone is upset because although its just a manga and not "real" what makes a great manga is a bit of realism among all the fantasy elements, how would they know to match up the way they did knowing absolutely NOTHING about these espada?

Now on the other hand this might not be the case for these fights and we are going to be completely surprised by what happens but I for one am tired of fights being PERFECTLY paired up. At the very least I want them to maybe have to scramble and switch opponents like some have said, make some mid battle decisions. Its almost like the "good guys" are boxers who have had a chance to see their opponents tapes/fights and are able to match up perfectly yet the bad guys go into the fight blind and are always caught off guard.

Aonsaithya
October 08, 2008, 03:05 PM
I don't think tha hitsu will beat halibel nor will he get utterly owned.
In the fight w/ luppi, he played luppi like a violin. He wasn't injured he faked it so he could trap luppi. Had he need to he could have come back and attack. He was smart to play w/ luppi's cokiness

IMO, hitsu and soifon will switch enemies due to some reason.
As for matsumoto, ther are other VC too like the 1st division VC

Fanboyism-senses tingling. "He wasn't injured he faked it".
After Luppi's first attack, Hitsugaya looks rather messed up: http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-232-page-10.html

Compare this to Luppi after Hitsu's super attack with all ze water around:
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-236-page-17.html
and later without the remaining bits o' ice:
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-240-page-10.html

I wouldn't really say "playing like a violin". Though violin is a more demanding instrument than, say, a piano, so you might have had some hidden symbolism there.
Also, "Had he need to he could have come back and attack." well, it was Urahara who quite narrowly saved Matsumoto, Hitsugaya's VC. What was Hitsugaya doing at the moment? He is the kind of person that will disregard anything (even preparing ze mega-attack) to save someone important to him, not the type to wait and see whether someone else happens to save the damsel in distress.

nokozon
October 08, 2008, 03:17 PM
Have you seen the data book? Hitsugaya has one of the best score there. Take another look at them.

I think he maybe able to beat her, it isn't that far fetched. I mean Hitsugaya never had show his best yet. He is strong because he almost killed Luppi with one move, who was the second 6th Espada.

Also Toshiro might be the only one that can beat her, Maybe Halibel's released form's weakness is Ice. Or maybe he found out his true form of his Bankai, like Byakuya.

He is a child prodigy. :amuse

According to the databook, Hitsugaya is roughly 5th strongest after Yamamoto, Unohana, Kyoraku, and Byakuya. Halibel on the other hand, is more powerful than Ulquiorra.

Ulquiorra is a scary dude who kicked Ichigo's ass without drawing his sword. NOW- I will concede that these apples to oranges comparisons do NOT traditionally work in Bleach... SO If her weakness happens to be ice (and with that outfit on, who wouldn't be susceptible to the cold? :tem) I guess he'd stand a chance. But that's all I'll give him!

Yannnnnnnnn
October 08, 2008, 03:23 PM
bankai or not, if Rangiku handles three fraccion where captain Komamura used his bankai on ONE, that's completely absurd. unless Halibel's fraccion are complete piles and the worst of all fraccion.

Well you are right... But, I think he uses bankai to kill him in a second and not to spend time with this merr fraccion (or kubo just like to draw his bankai !!!)

well matsu will have a hard time for sure !!

hajialibaig
October 08, 2008, 03:25 PM
According to the databook, Hitsugaya is roughly 5th strongest after Yamamoto, Unohana, Kyoraku, and Byakuya. Halibel on the other hand, is more powerful than Ulquiorra.

Ulquiorra is a scary dude who kicked Ichigo's ass without drawing his sword. NOW- I will concede that these apples to oranges comparisons do NOT traditionally work in Bleach... SO If her weakness happens to be ice (and with that outfit on, who wouldn't be susceptible to the cold? :tem) I guess he'd stand a chance. But that's all I'll give him!

If her weakness was indeed ice, or whatever, wouldn't she be sensible enough to switch out with another Espada or something.

Like it's always the bad guys who are portrayed as dumba$$es, and I am sick of it.

But yea, I still strongly believe that Halibel is gonna have an easy fight...unless Kubo lost his mind >.>

The Adamant Dragon
October 08, 2008, 03:53 PM
Hitsugaya will be facing Halibel, considering that she's on the top 3, it's not for nothing that Kubo made her face Hitsugaya Alone. Awsom, 'coz For those who were under-rating Hitsugaya are about to get surprised. And it might confirm my view on his powers and the theory I made about it (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1032872#post1032872). <--- Click the sentence. I'm lookin' forward to his fight against Halibel.

Anyway, moving on. I'm quite surprise that we get to see the Captains' fight this week, but it's all for the better, Eh, Its great that Kubo decided to start the kicking right away. Ichigo can wait!

We definitly got an awsom chapter this week.

Seriph2
October 08, 2008, 04:23 PM
Hitsugaya will be facing Halibel, considering that she's on the top 3, it's not for nothing that Kubo made her face Hitsugaya Alone. Awsom, 'coz For those who were under-rating Hitsugaya are about to get surprised. And it might confirm my view on his powers and the theory I made about it (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1032872#post1032872). I'm lookin' forward to his fight against Halibel.

Anyway, moving on. I'm quite surprise that we get to see the Captains' fight this week, but it's all for the better, Eh, Its great that Kubo decided to start the kicking right away. Ichigo can wait!

We definitly got an awsom chapter this week.




I've always wondered about his bankai and the petals, I definitely also agree that they don't mark the "end" of his bankai theres got to be something else behind it. Just some random thoughts, maybe once they disappear everything is enveloped in ice and hes afraid of putting his comrades in danger? Or my favorite, once the petals disappear his full frost power is unleashed making his Ice powers EXTREMELY potent however as a drawback EVERYONE even comrades around him start to feel indirect effects. I really dont have any other theories at this point, I just hope however the fight is handled that it's done in a believable fashion. I always liked hitsu i was just always very disappointed with the lack of power he had for a "genius protege".



Also my previous post about Ichigo's DRASTIC increase in power with another old man zangetsu meeting and finding out his full bankai potential might be the reason why were being shown the captain fights first. Everyone thought that numerically it makes no sense to see the number 1-3 espada fights before number 4 but id really like the twist of Ichigo being shown last afterall he is the main character of the story and its about time he reclaims that spot in a believable and respectable fashion, sort of like naruto right now with his sage training, or luffy with the predicted Haki training or acquirement.

Onomatopoeia
October 08, 2008, 05:43 PM
I'm totally iffy on these spoilers. I mean a lot of people were betting on Stark being No. 1 because he'd be fighting both Kyouroko and Ukitake. THis seemed to be on a Vastro LordeLevel in most people's opinion but now it's just Kyouroko, that seems to be more on the level of a High Adjuchas or Low Vastro Lorde. Anyways those who suspected that Aizen didn't have any VLs might be right(well except Barragan the guys totally a VL)

Next on we have Matsumoto vs 3 Fraccion and Soi Fon vs 1 Fraccion... the hell? That makes no sense I like Matsumoto more then Soi Fon but this is a captain were talking about here. The only way this would make any sense is if Soi Fons Fraccion is teh uber strong and Matsumoto's are really weak( a possible hint towards Barragan's level?) the other scenario is that Matsumoto screams "BANKAI" in the middle of it, which hey makes sense, she's defintely among the top 3 Leiutenants and has been shown training for it.

Finally at the Halibel vs Hitsugaya fight... lol. Hitsugaya's in my top 3 characters. But it's laughable to think he'll beat Halibel, theirs no way he can fight someone who's stronger then Ulqui, Ichigo+Bankai+Vizard power, Kenpachi, etc. If he wins I call BS/The Sauce Effect, Unless one thing happens that wouldn't make it complete BS.

Now then I'll have to explain this theory of mine(and many others, Adamant Dragon being at the top of my list). For Kubo to make Hitsugaya beating Halibel to make sense then he'll have to do something that I've always suspected. Namely Hitsugaya's countdown, no one can deny it's a timer to something But what that something is debatable. Kubo has purposely made his Countdown mysterious, yes Shawlong "hypothesized" what Hitsugaya's Bankai might be but he's anything but an expert at Bankai's.

Not only that but Renji has had his Bankai for even less time then Hitsugaya's yet he's never been shown to have a timer. It doesn't make sense for someone with more practice with their Bankai to have a timer until it stops working when someone who has less practice doesn't. Heck Shawlong didn't even know about Limiters, that just shoots his credibility to hell. In fact if Kubo wanted to prove Shawlong right then he would have just had Hitsugaya's flowersall dissapear which would follow up with his Bankai breaking, instead he left just one petal.

Now then what this countdown is, well thats the mystery it could be a multitude of things, the first that comes to mind is Gin's comment about Hitsugaya being the Heavenly Guardian and considering how reminscent SS King is to God well it's not a stretch to say a Heavenly Guardian can be related to the Zero Squad. And considering this is Gin were talking about well I suspect he knows what he's talking about. In other words Hitsugaya's countdown could be a timer until he release's a badass Bankai and becomes a giant Mofo. Kubo's been leaving hints about this for a while and it would actually make sense....or I could be hyping Kubo's ability to foreshadow things:D

King Mordred
October 08, 2008, 05:48 PM
Halibel has a evil stare in her eyes when she unsheathed. So she's going to pwn him for sure.

Raizen
October 08, 2008, 06:12 PM
I'm totally iffy on these spoilers. I mean a lot of people were betting on Stark being No. 1 because he'd be fighting both Kyouroko and Ukitake. THis seemed to be on a Vastro LordeLevel in most people's opinion but now it's just Kyouroko, that seems to be more on the level of a High Adjuchas or Low Vastro Lorde. Anyways those who suspected that Aizen didn't have any VLs might be right(well except Barragan the guys totally a VL)

Next on we have Matsumoto vs 3 Fraccion and Soi Fon vs 1 Fraccion... the hell? That makes no sense I like Matsumoto more then Soi Fon but this is a captain were talking about here. The only way this would make any sense is if Soi Fons Fraccion is teh uber strong and Matsumoto's are really weak( a possible hint towards Barragan's level?) the other scenario is that Matsumoto screams "BANKAI" in the middle of it, which hey makes sense, she's defintely among the top 3 Leiutenants and has been shown training for it.

Finally at the Halibel vs Hitsugaya fight... lol. Hitsugaya's in my top 3 characters. But it's laughable to think he'll beat Halibel, theirs no way he can fight someone who's stronger then Ulqui, Ichigo+Bankai+Vizard power, Kenpachi, etc. If he wins I call BS/The Sauce Effect, Unless one thing happens that wouldn't make it complete BS.

Now then I'll have to explain this theory of mine(and many others, Adamant Dragon being at the top of my list). For Kubo to make Hitsugaya beating Halibel to make sense then he'll have to do something that I've always suspected. Namely Hitsugaya's countdown, no one can deny it's a timer to something But what that something is debatable. Kubo has purposely made his Countdown mysterious, yes Shawlong "hypothesized" what Hitsugaya's Bankai might be but he's anything but an expert at Bankai's.

Not only that but Renji has had his Bankai for even less time then Hitsugaya's yet he's never been shown to have a timer. It doesn't make sense for someone with more practice with their Bankai to have a timer until it stops working when someone who has less practice doesn't. Heck Shawlong didn't even know about Limiters, that just shoots his credibility to hell. In fact if Kubo wanted to prove Shawlong right then he would have just had Hitsugaya's flowersall dissapear which would follow up with his Bankai breaking, instead he left just one petal.

Now then what this countdown is, well thats the mystery it could be a multitude of things, the first that comes to mind is Gin's comment about Hitsugaya being the Heavenly Guardian and considering how reminscent SS King is to God well it's not a stretch to say a Heavenly Guardian can be related to the Zero Squad. And considering this is Gin were talking about well I suspect he knows what he's talking about. In other words Hitsugaya's countdown could be a timer until he release's a badass Bankai and becomes a giant Mofo. Kubo's been leaving hints about this for a while and it would actually make sense....or I could be hyping Kubo's ability to foreshadow things:D
That's is exactly what I am hoping it is. Hitsu has always been afraid of his powers. I mean he unintentionally made his grandma cold w/o knowing it. My bet he doesn't want to use his full strength due to its effect on those around him

I read adamant's theory quite some time ago and loved it. Props to him for thinking of such a theory

ascalon
October 08, 2008, 06:21 PM
The biggest problem and the problem that EVERYONE has with bleach currently is not that the powers are skewed is that the author ( forgot his name lol ) is relying TOO much on situational matchups where for instance mayuri conveniently matches up PERFECTLY with the number 8 espada I believe it was, or byakuya vs his espada. Its cool and ok to see maybe once or twice but you have got to believe that since hitsu aka ice boy is matched up against such a powerful foe that there is more to it than just overall strength.

Now in the end it ends up making it somewhat believable that "so and so" pulled off a win because they just as an example had the matching element (think lightning vs earth) but it starts to get cheesy and old and robs the reader in my opinion and is the reason everyone is upset because although its just a manga and not "real" what makes a great manga is a bit of realism among all the fantasy elements, how would they know to match up the way they did knowing absolutely NOTHING about these espada?

Now on the other hand this might not be the case for these fights and we are going to be completely surprised by what happens but I for one am tired of fights being PERFECTLY paired up. At the very least I want them to maybe have to scramble and switch opponents like some have said, make some mid battle decisions. Its almost like the "good guys" are boxers who have had a chance to see their opponents tapes/fights and are able to match up perfectly yet the bad guys go into the fight blind and are always caught off guard.

My sentiments exactly. Bleach is sucking badly for that reason, among others. One Piece is the best going right now in my opinion.

ryanzokuken
October 08, 2008, 06:58 PM
Now then what this countdown is, well thats the mystery it could be a multitude of things, the first that comes to mind is Gin's comment about Hitsugaya being the Heavenly Guardian and considering how reminscent SS King is to God well it's not a stretch to say a Heavenly Guardian can be related to the Zero Squad. And considering this is Gin were talking about well I suspect he knows what he's talking about. In other words Hitsugaya's countdown could be a timer until he release's a badass Bankai and becomes a giant Mofo. Kubo's been leaving hints about this for a while and it would actually make sense....or I could be hyping Kubo's ability to foreshadow things:D

i'll laugh 'til i cry if his petals melt and he unleashes full power and turns into the ice dragon like his fellow there in DDR.

then when i'm done laughing....i'll be pissed and annoyed and pray for Shinso to come beaming out through the flames and impale him between the eyes.

xXAshisogiJizoXx
October 08, 2008, 07:38 PM
I dunno what to think when it comes to Hitsu's countdown. its always been presumed that the countdown was to his bankai's limit, and even shawlong guessed as much. On one side, you got the fact that shawlong probabaly had little to no evidence to support this fact, but im pretty sure Kubo intended the character to be an intelligent "analyst" type, so i wouldnt completely disregard something he may have said. Maybe it is infact a countdown to his bankai's limit, wherein the last moments of his bankai hitsu enters a sort-of crazy powerful state or something, which we didn't see in his fight w/ shawlong cuz he was way too cut up (also, if you look on the page where hitsu kills shawlong, it looks as though shawlongs tail is reaching back, like a sort of last ditch attempt to attack his opponent.). even if that is the case, i still don't want hitsu to win, maybe make halibel question her chance of victory for a little, but still come out on top.i also think sasakibe will have to help out matsu, shes tough, but not that tough. assuming those fraccion are similar in strength to baragans, theres no way she could fight three once they all release, and i wouldnt like it if she had a bankai. personally, i don;t think anyone who doesn't already have a bankai should get one from this point on, only captains, the crew (ichi/renji), and IKKAKU can have bankai...thas it

As for inconsistency in fraccion strengths, i beleive that if they had the limits lifted from the beginning, the fights with grimmjow's fraccion would have turned out similarly to the fights w/ baragan's fraccion in that the hollows put up some fight, but shinigami always have the upper hand. the reason why they got owned so babdly was merely surprise of the lifitng of the limits, which renji even said, so yeah, way i see it, the fraccion powerlvls have been farely consistnet(...well, for kubo's standards at least :P)

anyways, about the next chapter...well i was hoping for hm transition, but some (hopefully) final interactions b4 the big fights isn't bad, especially excited for stark and shunsui (lazy bums) overall i think bleach is starting to get much better again. as for the people who say bleach is failing, well, while i think kubo should fit in more content-per-chap., bleach is best read in large portions. i read the chapters as they come out, but once about every five chapters, i go back and read the five previous chapters, and am much more satisfied after doing so/

Masaki195
October 08, 2008, 08:01 PM
My sentiments exactly. Bleach is sucking badly for that reason, among others. One Piece is the best going right now in my opinion.

Then, why don't you go read one piece instead?

side note: I like the fact that half of this thread is people saying Hitsugaya going to get pwnz. At least wright something different than the person above up. :eyeroll

Seriph2
October 08, 2008, 10:37 PM
Then, why don't you go read one piece instead?

side note: I like the fact that half of this thread is people saying Hitsugaya going to get pwnz. At least wright something different than the person above up. :eyeroll



You can't read both at the same time? Its one thing screaming plotkai constantly that shit gets old but voicing your opinion on the direction bleach is taking with these "dream" matchups vs how One piece fights are handled is another and in my opinion the perfect example of how it could be. Theres a reason people get mad at sasuke pulling wins out of his ass or people complaining about these bleach matchups currently, whereas in One piece I dont think ive seen anyone complain about this recent arc where the straw hats were waiting to get their ship coated the fights were done beautifully, you didnt have luffy just randomly owning an admiral just from his "resolve" even though his crew mates were as far as he knew killed in front of him. I love bleach currently its probably my favorite just because of the POTENTIAL epicness of these fights right now but its all about the delivery.

Masaki195
October 08, 2008, 10:54 PM
I not going to get in a big thing with you, but I was just saying if he thinks bleach sucks, why even read it? What's the point in reading a series that is just going to piss you off.

I know about One piece it's an awesome Manga, I agree that Oda is great a paring people up in battle.

Come on guys have more faith in Tite Kubo.;)

I wonder why Halibel has an interest in Toshiro in the first place. You would think that she wouldn't care about fighting him, but it looks like she wants to.

patedecarne
October 08, 2008, 10:59 PM
let's no jump to the conclusions right now: Yes, Hitsu winning this battle would be the most absurd thing to see on any manga so far, but what we saw was just a single panel, and nothing was indicating that Hitsu was on pair with Halibel;

And let's believe on Kubo, again...
I'm sure he'll do a decent job here, probably he's heard so many complaints about the Kendopachi thing, and being smart he wouldn't make the same mistake twice...

Cyanilurus
October 08, 2008, 11:55 PM
Plus, he took a couple of free weeks not so long ago, and I would like to believe that he took the for a reason - planning out the events properly.

So far it seems to me this reason is true. Sure, sure, it seems sometimes nothing is happening, but when you will once in the faraway futuore read it all together, it will show you that the "slow, eventless" chapters are actually part of a proper pacing and flow. But because we only get a tidbit each week it' s so hard...

Even if Bleach has flaws, it' s a good manga, I think. If Kubo announced he doesn' t want to continue, everyone here would scream "Nooooooo!" despite whatever they said about it before, I' m sure.

Sooo, errr, yeah, let' s believe in Kubo? :D

Darek Khort
October 09, 2008, 12:08 AM
Hitsugaya will eventually pwn. Or at least do some serious damage to Halibel once he loses his petals.
I base this on the gaiden with him unconsciously making others cold.
I base this on the fact that we haven't seen his petals disappear yet, and at least for me if the petals fully disappear and he loses his bankai, that would suck. I like the Renji argument. If Renji doesn't have a timer after just learning bankai (same with Ichigo), why Hitsugaya?

I believe he is holding back and tries to finish a fight before the petals disappear so as to not harm his friends.
He holds back his power due to the fear of hurting his friends.
Ikkaku holds back his power due to the fear of not serving under Kenpachi.

If Ikkaku can lose to a fraccion due to his will to hold his power back, then Hitsu can seem to be weak against a fraccion due to his will to hold his power back.


What I can see happening is; Matsu is fighting Halibel's fraccion; Hitsu is fighting Halibel. Hitsu is seen to be losing at the start as you'd expect, but then his petals disappear. Just before the last one he tells Matsu to "get the f away!"
BOOM! On a double-paged spread for at the end of the chapter, we see Halibel and fraccion frozen; Matsu is slightly frozen (sort of like Kira during SS arc). End of chapter.

Next chapter, Hitsu goes to help Matsu; Just before he goes he gets cut down by Halibel who has broken free of the ice (just like how Grimmjaw broke free from Rukia's attack).

eddy26
October 09, 2008, 12:40 AM
let's no jump to the conclusions right now: Yes, Hitsu winning this battle would be the most absurd thing to see on any manga so far, but what we saw was just a single panel, and nothing was indicating that Hitsu was on pair with Halibel;

And let's believe on Kubo, again...
I'm sure he'll do a decent job here, probably he's heard so many complaints about the Kendopachi thing, and being smart he wouldn't make the same mistake twice...

What do you mean the Kenpachi kendo thing was a mistake? Kubo is the author so if he thought it was a mistake he never would have written it. People need to get over that already I mean it's over Nnoitra is dead if Kubo didn't want to give Kenpachi bankai that is his decision. So there is always the chance Hitsugaya is going to win like it or not. Personally Hitsugaya isn't my favorite character but he is still a captain. Halibel shouldn't be able to one hit kill him that would be ridiculous. Halibel winning makes sense but Hitsu is going to put up a fight if all the captains trained so did he. The only bad guy that should be able to one hit kill opponents is Aizen the man with the plan and that crazy zanpaktou.
What I'm hoping will happen is that most of the captains and VC lose but survive and all the fraccion get wiped out. When the espada get ready to kill the defeated captains and VC Yamamoto will tell Aizen did you really think you could trap captains in Hueco Mundo. I already knew you might try to do that. We see a Garganta open with Kisuke, Yoruichi, plus all the captains and VC from Hueco Mundo come out. Aizen just smiles and calls for Yammi, Wonderweiss, and an army of privaron espada. He tells them go and destroy those pillars. Before the four captains can move the top three espada appear in front of them and start to fight. Yoruichi goes to check on the wounded captains specifically Soifon and Kisuke goes to the pillars. Yammi gets in front of Kisuke and tells him we never got to finish our fight.

ThaGreatOne
October 09, 2008, 02:54 AM
What do you mean the Kenpachi kendo thing was a mistake? Kubo is the author so if he thought it was a mistake he never would have written it. People need to get over that already I mean it's over Nnoitra is dead if Kubo didn't want to give Kenpachi bankai that is his decision. So there is always the chance Hitsugaya is going to win like it or not. Personally Hitsugaya isn't my favorite character but he is still a captain. Halibel shouldn't be able to one hit kill him that would be ridiculous. Halibel winning makes sense but Hitsu is going to put up a fight if all the captains trained so did he. The only bad guy that should be able to one hit kill opponents is Aizen the man with the plan and that crazy zanpaktou.
What I'm hoping will happen is that most of the captains and VC lose but survive and all the fraccion get wiped out. When the espada get ready to kill the defeated captains and VC Yamamoto will tell Aizen did you really think you could trap captains in Hueco Mundo. I already knew you might try to do that. We see a Garganta open with Kisuke, Yoruichi, plus all the captains and VC from Hueco Mundo come out. Aizen just smiles and calls for Yammi, Wonderweiss, and an army of privaron espada. He tells them go and destroy those pillars. Before the four captains can move the top three espada appear in front of them and start to fight. Yoruichi goes to check on the wounded captains specifically Soifon and Kisuke goes to the pillars. Yammi gets in front of Kisuke and tells him we never got to finish our fight.

Are you serious? Kendopachi was a GRAVE mistake...one of the biggest made ever. Let me break it down...kenpachi and noitora go slash for slash and kenpachi does some damage...all of a sudden kenpachi slashes with a two handed kendo stance and the battle is over???? Come on now! You know that was a terrible ending to a battle that had so much promise. Of course people were hoping for a bankai or a shikai and sure a bankai from a man who didn't know his swords name a lil while back might seem weird but at least a shikai or use the move he did against ichigo but to go from one handed slashes then just do one "kendo" slash and instantly win? it was terrible

looks like another "set-up" chapter with more talking between the paired up fighters (that were actually paired up last chapter). Anyways Hitsu has potential and all but somebody besides ikkaku has to go down for the good guys. It'll be pretty lame if the only losers on the good team were vice captains and below. Soifon should win her battle within one page. Some of the captains have to go down or there really is no need to introduce the viazard or yoruichi/kisuke. Some more goodguys have to go down and it looks like Hitsu will be the first. Not to say Halibel will just do a one-hit kill but she should win...at least the 3 top espada should beat SOMEBODY right?
[hr]
On second thought I actually want hitsugaya to either win or switch opponents and stay in battle long enough so he can fight Gin and then Gin demolish him and hitsu gets his prodigy a** handed to him.

ascalon
October 09, 2008, 02:55 AM
What do you mean the Kenpachi kendo thing was a mistake? Kubo is the author so if he thought it was a mistake he never would have written it. People need to get over that already I mean it's over Nnoitra is dead if Kubo didn't want to give Kenpachi bankai that is his decision. So there is always the chance Hitsugaya is going to win like it or not. Personally Hitsugaya isn't my favorite character but he is still a captain. Halibel shouldn't be able to one hit kill him that would be ridiculous. Halibel winning makes sense but Hitsu is going to put up a fight if all the captains trained so did he. The only bad guy that should be able to one hit kill opponents is Aizen the man with the plan and that crazy zanpaktou.
What I'm hoping will happen is that most of the captains and VC lose but survive and all the fraccion get wiped out. When the espada get ready to kill the defeated captains and VC Yamamoto will tell Aizen did you really think you could trap captains in Hueco Mundo. I already knew you might try to do that. We see a Garganta open with Kisuke, Yoruichi, plus all the captains and VC from Hueco Mundo come out. Aizen just smiles and calls for Yammi, Wonderweiss, and an army of privaron espada. He tells them go and destroy those pillars. Before the four captains can move the top three espada appear in front of them and start to fight. Yoruichi goes to check on the wounded captains specifically Soifon and Kisuke goes to the pillars. Yammi gets in front of Kisuke and tells him we never got to finish our fight.

That kenpachi thing was the most retarded thing I've seen in a manga thus far, (and Sasuke's win over Bee would've been a very close second had it not been rectified later :p ). I seriously thought it was a joke at first. And I didn't say I dont like/hate Bleach, I said I hate the way Kubo makes these super simplified match ups that are as predictable as an episode of Scooby Doo.

hyn_pride93
October 09, 2008, 03:59 AM
What do you mean the Kenpachi kendo thing was a mistake? Kubo is the author so if he thought it was a mistake he never would have written it. People need to get over that already I mean it's over Nnoitra is dead if Kubo didn't want to give Kenpachi bankai that is his decision. So there is always the chance Hitsugaya is going to win like it or not. Personally Hitsugaya isn't my favorite character but he is still a captain. Halibel shouldn't be able to one hit kill him that would be ridiculous. Halibel winning makes sense but Hitsu is going to put up a fight if all the captains trained so did he. The only bad guy that should be able to one hit kill opponents is Aizen the man with the plan and that crazy zanpaktou.
What I'm hoping will happen is that most of the captains and VC lose but survive and all the fraccion get wiped out. When the espada get ready to kill the defeated captains and VC Yamamoto will tell Aizen did you really think you could trap captains in Hueco Mundo. I already knew you might try to do that. We see a Garganta open with Kisuke, Yoruichi, plus all the captains and VC from Hueco Mundo come out. Aizen just smiles and calls for Yammi, Wonderweiss, and an army of privaron espada. He tells them go and destroy those pillars. Before the four captains can move the top three espada appear in front of them and start to fight. Yoruichi goes to check on the wounded captains specifically Soifon and Kisuke goes to the pillars. Yammi gets in front of Kisuke and tells him we never got to finish our fight.

Idk what everyone else is saying eddy. The Kenpakendo wasn't the greatest way to end a very promising battle I agree, but if that's what Kubo wants then that's what we get. Just look at Ken. He's been killing everyone off with just wielding his sword with one hand. Do you guys know how hard and difficult that is? I sure do because I sure know that I'm not able to really damage objects with just one hand and not feel some pain.

As for the way that you predicted the future chapter(s), I find it to be almost exactly what's going to happen.
--------------

Hitsugaya being paired up with Halibel was very unexpected. When Soi Fon stopped the fraccion, I was a little surprised because I wasn't expecting that one. :blink But this battle is gonna be even more promising then the Ken/Noi battle I hope. But as for the Stark/Shun battle, it was expected but not wanted, because of the whole counter part battle thing. But I am excited for all of the future battles, including my most look-forward to one= Rangiku vs. 3 Fraccion. Let me repeat that again. Rangiku vs. 3 Fraccion. Oh you gotta love it.

En Yang Ji
October 09, 2008, 07:01 AM
I thought in kendo, you put your body weight into a attack, instead of just using 2 arms. I think that's why Kenpachi was so much stronger.

Anyway, I wonder why Hitsugaya chose to fight the 3 Espada, instead of the fraccion. He must know of the power difference after fighting Luppi. Maybe he developed a new move.

hajialibaig
October 09, 2008, 08:56 AM
I don't think there is anything to Hitsugaya's countdown other than the OBVIOUS. It's a time limit for his bankai..

But anyway, I am pretty sure Halibel will pwn him before we knows what hit him

danga' manga'
October 09, 2008, 09:30 AM
halibel has to be able to destroy hitsugaya otherwise the epsada are worthless. It's 2 vs one in the stark fight and they are supposedly the strongest captains in SS.

Devil-buster
October 09, 2008, 09:43 AM
I dont know why a lot of people are totally against hitsugaya beating halibel....Kubo has been hinting at hitsu's real strength for a long time....he is supposedly a heavenly guardian reincarnated in shinigami form.....and just by the fact that ichigo went from barely beating bankai-less renji to beating two of the stronger captains in SS should be a pre-cursor to how things move in bleach.....I know hitsu beating halibel is farsfetched...
But it wont be a plot-Kai...if so the entire series is a big plot kai.....love it or hate it....thats bleach 4 u....

The only character I want to see survive is stark.....unless halibel walks around naked from now on...I could care less if she lives or dies....what I mean is that her character is f''in boring.....

I believe that aizen still has a new breed of espada's stashed away somewhere.....he will atleast loose two espada's in this fight....I am pretty sure he knows he cant just walk into king's dimension and defeat the zero's squad and any other uber strong guys protecting the king and just cushion himself on the throne...he must have a back-up plan.....you dont go to war against an army with just 3 or four people, no matter how strong aizen is....if so he could have done all this himself....without ever going to HM....

toslat
October 09, 2008, 10:39 AM
I for one wont be surprised if hitsu wins. Given the way his profile has been setup, its only a matter of time before he becomes one of the stronger captains. Mind you, he doesnt have to win by going toe to toe, halibel could get over confident and underestimate him e.g assuming the petals timer are a countdown for his bankai expiring, whereas they are a countdown to a power up.

What I would like to see is rangiku's bankai - she needs it for 3 fraccions.

btw soifon needs a guy in her life.

EmbodiedDespair
October 09, 2008, 10:43 AM
I thought in kendo, you put your body weight into a attack, instead of just using 2 arms. I think that's why Kenpachi was so much stronger.

Anyway, I wonder why Hitsugaya chose to fight the 3 Espada, instead of the fraccion. He must know of the power difference after fighting Luppi. Maybe he developed a new move.

As a student of Kendo and Iaido, I have to back up the whole Kendo thing that Kenpachi used.

If you know the first thing about sword striking, you know that when you swing with one hand, as opposed to two, you are striking with less than half the speed, power and accuracy you would have striking with both hands on the Tsuka (handle).

I mean, was it REALLY that hard to swallow?

And as for Hitsu... I don't even know what to guess. It's Kubo's game, so I'll let him play it out. I just won't expect anything less than him getting stomped, but I won't be surprised if he whomps some butt out of nowhere.

hajialibaig
October 09, 2008, 11:00 AM
Now now, is it just me, or has it been only like a 5-6 days in bleach world since Hitsugaya fought Luppi and got K.O. in one hit (Luppi was stupid enough to let him heal himself afterwards....)

As far as I can remember, we had the Hitsu-Luppi fight, Grimmjow pwned Ichigo.. Orihime got Kidnapped, Ichigo and Co went to Hueco Mundo (They probably spend less than a day in Hueco Mundo), and now we have the big battle...

SO how is it possible for Hitsugaya to become uber strong now in like 5 days. when he already was a captain for 50 years?? And all of this talk about his timer is just fanboy dreams...lol.

gold349
October 09, 2008, 11:21 AM
I have this feeling that the pairings are all wrong and Espada hierarchy is still not what many think at moment...there could be switches to fights, the biggest reason why I say this is Matsamoto against 3 fraccion were even Ikkaku had trouble with 1 and Cpt bear was sent flying by 1 at first...which made Iba run away, the fraccion that fought 69 talked about fighting at captain level...just surprised why the fracion aren't privaron espada or could they be?.

Eye of the tiger
October 09, 2008, 11:25 AM
I dont know why a lot of people are totally against hitsugaya beating halibel....Kubo has been hinting at hitsu's real strength for a long time....he is supposedly a heavenly guardian reincarnated in shinigami form.....and just by the fact that ichigo went from barely beating bankai-less renji to beating two of the stronger captains in SS should be a pre-cursor to how things move in bleach.....I know hitsu beating halibel is farsfetched...
But it wont be a plot-Kai...if so the entire series is a big plot kai.....love it or hate it....thats bleach 4 u....

The only character I want to see survive is stark.....unless halibel walks around naked from now on...I could care less if she lives or dies....what I mean is that her character is f''in boring.....

I believe that aizen still has a new breed of espada's stashed away somewhere.....he will atleast loose two espada's in this fight....I am pretty sure he knows he cant just walk into king's dimension and defeat the zero's squad and any other uber strong guys protecting the king and just cushion himself on the throne...he must have a back-up plan.....you dont go to war against an army with just 3 or four people, no matter how strong aizen is....if so he could have done all this himself....without ever going to HM....

Couldn't agree more. Precisely put.. and hope your halibel comment comes true!!
[hr]

Now now, is it just me, or has it been only like a 5-6 days in bleach world since Hitsugaya fought Luppi and got K.O. in one hit (Luppi was stupid enough to let him heal himself afterwards....)

As far as I can remember, we had the Hitsu-Luppi fight, Grimmjow pwned Ichigo.. Orihime got Kidnapped, Ichigo and Co went to Hueco Mundo (They probably spend less than a day in Hueco Mundo), and now we have the big battle...

SO how is it possible for Hitsugaya to become uber strong now in like 5 days. when he already was a captain for 50 years?? And all of this talk about his timer is just fanboy dreams...lol.

Hitsu was cap for only 15 years. And I think it was a month after the first time Ulquiorra and co went to the real world to recon.

Revan46
October 09, 2008, 11:47 AM
I personally just want Barragan to be killed. His fraccion were almost all beaten easily, minus Po, and I just think that Halibel and Stark deserve to survive. Both are much better than the lovely and arrogant "King Barragan". I'm getting pretty sick of him. I like the cool quiet types.

Omi_XII
October 09, 2008, 12:01 PM
I personally thought the whole Kenpachi thing was quite good. I would have beena bit bored, and annoyed by it if Kubo actually gave Kenpachi a shikai, or Bankai at this point; it's far too early to be giving him things like that, especially if there's to be future progression with, what I imagine will be stronger opposition.

It's not hard to consider that given that he's basically the strongest shinigami to have ever lived that he could possibly end a fight with a decisive blow, especially if he put the entirity of his strength into it. Remember, when he ''drew'' with Ichigo, he was using one singular hand, and still managed a tie-breaker. I wouldn't consider Ichigo's strength -that- far below what he currently is at right now,really either at that stage as he fully bonded with Zangetsu, and I imagine his hollow side also since the vision of the Mask appeared in his Spiritual Power- Plus, it was the Mask that saved him anyway, before Yourichi took it away!

So, with all that strenght that he used back then now double, or even trebled from using both hands, I'm hardly surprised he did so much damage.

Really, there are so many factors to this, but if I reckon any other method was used, I.E. Bankai or whatever this would have been going really downhill, kind of like dragonball z, with Shikai's and Siyans popping up everywhere. Once in a thousandyears? My ass!!

patz
October 09, 2008, 12:22 PM
Did Kubo really forget Yama's lieutenant?

Eye of the tiger
October 09, 2008, 12:22 PM
I personally thought the whole Kenpachi thing was quite good. I would have beena bit bored, and annoyed by it if Kubo actually gave Kenpachi a shikai, or Bankai at this point; it's far too early to be giving him things like that, especially if there's to be future progression with, what I imagine will be stronger opposition.

It's not hard to consider that given that he's basically the strongest shinigami to have ever lived that he could possibly end a fight with a decisive blow, especially if he put the entirity of his strength into it. Remember, when he ''drew'' with Ichigo, he was using one singular hand, and still managed a tie-breaker. I wouldn't consider Ichigo's strength -that- far below what he currently is at right now,really either at that stage as he fully bonded with Zangetsu, and I imagine his hollow side also since the vision of the Mask appeared in his Spiritual Power- Plus, it was the Mask that saved him anyway, before Yourichi took it away!

So, with all that strenght that he used back then now double, or even trebled from using both hands, I'm hardly surprised he did so much damage.

Really, there are so many factors to this, but if I reckon any other method was used, I.E. Bankai or whatever this would have been going really downhill, kind of like dragonball z, with Shikai's and Siyans popping up everywhere. Once in a thousandyears? My ass!!

Don't take it all literally.. its just for the effect and aura.

ryanzokuken
October 09, 2008, 12:26 PM
I for one wont be surprised if hitsu wins. Given the way his profile has been setup, its only a matter of time before he becomes one of the stronger captains. Mind you, he doesnt have to win by going toe to toe, halibel could get over confident and underestimate him e.g assuming the petals timer are a countdown for his bankai expiring, whereas they are a countdown to a power up.

What I would like to see is rangiku's bankai - she needs it for 3 fraccions.

btw soifon needs a guy in her life.

*raises hand* i'd volunteer for the romancing and taming of Soi Fon :D


anyways, about Halibel, she really doesn't seem like the type to get over confident and make mistakes. she seems so calm and calculating. but then again, after releasing, she could totally flip. she could go from the silent, mysterious, cool, calm, sexy espada woman to a wild, feral, vicious, animalistic fighter.

she gives me a serpent/dragon vibe, as for what her release might be.
i used to think she'd be catlike, but Grimm was, so she won't be.

Revan46
October 09, 2008, 12:34 PM
My curiousity is based around the fact that Barragan is still sitting letting his men do his dirty work. I think this part makes it seem likely he has less power than he could have. As for Halibel and Stark, I am looking forward to next week, hopefully they'll reveal their numbers. It seems towards the beginning of any battle (minus Aaroniero) the Espada always tell their number. But I guess we'll wait and see. It might go to Ulquiorra and Ichi next.

hajialibaig
October 09, 2008, 12:35 PM
How much time has passed since Luppi and Hitsugaya fought?

Seriph2
October 09, 2008, 01:54 PM
I don't think there is anything to Hitsugaya's countdown other than the OBVIOUS. It's a time limit for his bankai..

But anyway, I am pretty sure Halibel will pwn him before we knows what hit him



Thats just it though you THINK just as I or some other people THINK there is more to it, a random enemy assuming its his bankai limit means absolutely nothing for all we know his bankai is just like ikakku's which reaches max potential over time. I dont see what is so "obvious" maybe the petals disappearing is better compared to a stick of dynamite and the petals being the fuse, which is just the beginning.

Smudj
October 09, 2008, 02:02 PM
Somebody already mentioned this : Hitsugaya has his bankai longer than Renji, Ichigo, Ikkaku. So why should Hitsu have a time limit and them not ?

Maybe his bankai needs time to go full power because he still hasn't mastered it perfectly.

Ikkaku's also needs time to charge up his bankai to full power. So the idea about the petals counting down till Histu's bankai is at full power doesn't sound far fetched to me at all.

Eddy01741
October 09, 2008, 02:18 PM
If hitsugaya wins, that will be so fucking lame. Hitsugaya hasn't exactly shown himself to be the best fighter in the world. Hitsugaya struggled with a substitute espada, struggled against gin, was destroyed by aizen (that said, most shinigamis would be), and couldn't even beat a fraccion with bankai while limiter was on. Ichigo barely beat grimmjow, and I'm pretty sure that Ichigo>Hitsugaya unless Hitsugaya has some secret power.

Kendopachi was kinda lame, but just tell me this, do you HONESTLY think Kubo is gonna give Kenpachi shikai or bankai? I mean, maybe if there are like 3 more canon arcs after this they might give him shikai, but the way things are going, I don't see kenpachi getting shikai. The most important thing is that Kenpachi doesn't care about fighting alongside his zanpakuto, and has no motivation to attain shikai, it doesn't matter if he could become the most powerful shinigami in the world of bleach by getting bankai, because he never will get bankai in the first place.

Anyways, for speculation among the ranking of the top 3 espadas. I have two theories:
1. Barragan
2. Stark
3. Halibel

My reasoning being that Barragan has certainly taken charge since Aizen was (presumably) trapped. Not to be sexist, but female characters usually arn't as powerful as male ones, which is my reasoning for stark and Halibel.

1. Stark
2. Halibel
3. Barragan

Barragan could just be giving orders because he's the weakest and the others didn't want to waste their fraccions. Stark could be first because he wants his fight to be the last (basically, fake fighting till all the other fights are over, then really begin to fight).

AkatsukiNoTobi
October 09, 2008, 02:30 PM
For some reason, I believe Stark to be number 1, simply because he only has one Fraccion. Barragan, on the other hand, has what? 6? Halibel is in the middle with 3, so yeah. But it's flawed logic, cause doesn't Ulquiorra not have any Fraccion? Neither did Aaroniero or Yammi, for that matter...or Zomari.

Well, I guess you don't have to have Fraccion, but that's my guessing for the top 3.

hajialibaig
October 09, 2008, 03:45 PM
Thats just it though you THINK just as I or some other people THINK there is more to it, a random enemy assuming its his bankai limit means absolutely nothing for all we know his bankai is just like ikakku's which reaches max potential over time. I dont see what is so "obvious" maybe the petals disappearing is better compared to a stick of dynamite and the petals being the fuse, which is just the beginning.

Well, I think that's way-way-far fetched. It's just a time limit before poor-old-Hitsugaya loses his bankai cause he's too young to have it on for long periods of times (all the strain on his body must be enormous)

It's pretty much like how Ichigo was when he first got Bankai, his body couldn't handle it after a prolonged fight and all of his bones began crumbling.. Hitsugaya is no DIFFERENT :D

Anyway, bottom line: we'll see what happens

PS: Hitsugaya was all fatigued and tired when he almost ran out of petals against grimmjow's fraccion, which supports what i said above

ArmsDealer70
October 09, 2008, 03:49 PM
DAMN i cant wait for Stark to own them 2 captains, IM ROOTING FOR STARK HES LAZY< LAID BACK< ANS I CAN SENSE POWER WITHIN HIM

The Adamant Dragon
October 09, 2008, 03:55 PM
DAMN i cant wait for Stark to own them 2 captains, IM ROOTING FOR STARK HES LAZY< LAID BACK< ANS I CAN SENSE POWER WITHIN HIM


hmmm, Shunshui too is lazy, actually as lazy if not Lazier than Stark. So going by your logic, we could actually say that they're Equal...

We just have to wait and see. We're sure to have a bad ass fight, though both of 'em won't fight at full strengh.

shoe
October 09, 2008, 04:13 PM
Somebody already mentioned this : Hitsugaya has his bankai longer than Renji, Ichigo, Ikkaku. So why should Hitsu have a time limit and them not ?

Maybe his bankai needs time to go full power because he still hasn't mastered it perfectly.

Ikkaku's also needs time to charge up his bankai to full power. So the idea about the petals counting down till Histu's bankai is at full power doesn't sound far fetched to me at all.

ikakku has had his for an unknown amount of time, but I would be willing to presume that it has been at least as long as hitsugaya.

Onomatopoeia
October 09, 2008, 04:17 PM
Well, I think that's way-way-far fetched. It's just a time limit before poor-old-Hitsugaya loses his bankai cause he's too young to have it on for long periods of times (all the strain on his body must be enormous)

It's pretty much like how Ichigo was when he first got Bankai, his body couldn't handle it after a prolonged fight and all of his bones began crumbling.. Hitsugaya is no DIFFERENT :D

Anyway, bottom line: we'll see what happens

PS: Hitsugaya was all fatigued and tired when he almost ran out of petals against grimmjow's fraccion, which supports what i said above


Ichigo's bone breaking problems only appeared in one battle. Ichigo had a tops of 2 goes with his Bankai(and one was probablly just a quick one) at that point of time, the next time Ichigo used his Bankai he never showed that problem. Hitsugaya had gone Bankai more times then Ichigo did in the SS arc, is defintely older then Ichigo and finally has had at least 16+ years to talk to his Zan. SO Hitsugaya should have far more mastery over his Zan or at least compared to Ichigo

In other words Ichigo's third battle showcased him not having a problem with bone breaking. Since Hitsugaya most certainly had more then three tries during the SS arc with bankai that means he should have never have had a timer in the first place as a problem with his Bankai, or at least if you use Ichigo as an example. It doesn't, if you use Ichigo as an example(we could always use Renji too), work if you claim that Hitsugaya had a timer that was a negative to his Bankai.

nokozon
October 09, 2008, 04:45 PM
For some reason, I believe Stark to be number 1, simply because he only has one Fraccion. Barragan, on the other hand, has what? 6? Halibel is in the middle with 3, so yeah. But it's flawed logic, cause doesn't Ulquiorra not have any Fraccion? Neither did Aaroniero or Yammi, for that matter...or Zomari.

Well, I guess you don't have to have Fraccion, but that's my guessing for the top 3.

I thought those two kids were Ulquiorra's fraccion... the ones who beat up Orihime.

It's possible the others have them, we just didn't see them. I believe Zayel-Apollo said something to the effect of "some chose only one, some chose many" when he explained about fraccions. I guess it's speculation either way, and we'll never know since the defeated espada are ancient history.

Omi_XII
October 09, 2008, 05:47 PM
Somebody already mentioned this : Hitsugaya has his bankai longer than Renji, Ichigo, Ikkaku. So why should Hitsu have a time limit and them not ?.

It could just be how it's meant to be. For every pro there is a con. ( Or Kon? x)!! )

Example: ikkaku's Ban kai wakes up slowly, and only starts to show it's power when he's either causing or receiving damage.

Renji's? Well, it's pretty brital, and tends to be easily attacked, and dismembered temporarily whilst Renji reconnects the bones with his Spirit power.

Ichigo's, well, his is pretty obvious...It's very under developed.

Hitsugaya? Well, my personal opinion is that he just receives that immense amount of power, yet only for a set period of time. To be quite honest, the whole idea behind his bankai is fantastic, and a little too much really. If he has the power to manipulate nature itself, and freeze things like he does then there needs to be a boundary for this vast amount of power, such as a time frame, otherwise this power is quite god-mode-ish.

From what I've seen, every banKai except Byakuya's and Tousen's seem to have faults; I couldn't really find one with tousen's or Byakuya's since they both have a strong defense and offense; tousen was just unlucky when it comes to Zaraki. (Even though I'm a Zaraki fan. )

I think Bankai's like Byakuya's show how under developed Hitsugaya,Ikakku and Ichigo's Ban kai's are; his BanKai has really had all the kinks worked out of it.

Onomatopoeia
October 09, 2008, 06:15 PM
Tousen's bankai is horribly flawed. Grab his sword and he's screwed. Find anyone with good reflexes and he's dead. Or heck, put a Kidou Expert in his Bankai and they'll fire off one of the giant Kidou's and hit Tousen. Good reflexes or AOE attacks are Tousen's bane.

Byakuya's bankai and Mayuri's are probablly the only two truly perfected ones, that we've seen so far.

Doombot
October 09, 2008, 06:41 PM
I like the logic that because Barragan is sitting down and hasn't lifted a finger yet is because he's weak. Everyone claims Stark is #1 cause he's lazy and now when Barragan is lazy he's the weakest. I suppose Aizen is weaker then all of his Espada because he simply doesn't jump right into battle.

Barragan has to be a vasto lorde... he wants his fraccion to worship him like he were a king or god because before Aizen he probably was just that. I feel that if Halibel or Stark is stronger then Barragan is will just be a plot twist and that is the only reason. No real logic behind it.

ryanzokuken
October 09, 2008, 06:49 PM
I like the logic that because Barragan is sitting down and hasn't lifted a finger yet is because he's weak. Everyone claims Stark is #1 cause he's lazy and now when Barragan is lazy he's the weakest. I suppose Aizen is weaker then all of his Espada because he simply doesn't jump right into battle.

Barragan has to be a vasto lorde... he wants his fraccion to worship him like he were a king or god because before Aizen he probably was just that. I feel that if Halibel or Stark is stronger then Barragan is will just be a plot twist and that is the only reason. No real logic behind it.

desire to be worshipped and feared usually stems from weakness and an outward expression of self confidence that doesn't match the self esteem on the inside.

the loudest one in the room is the weakest one in the room.

Doombot
October 09, 2008, 07:03 PM
desire to be worshipped and feared usually stems from weakness and an outward expression of self confidence that doesn't match the self esteem on the inside.

the loudest one in the room is the weakest one in the room.

That isn't always the case. Sometimes people are very good and KNOW they are very good. I'm just saying there is no set up for Stark or Halibel being #1 so if they are indeed so its only it fit fandom or a plot twist.

xXAshisogiJizoXx
October 09, 2008, 07:23 PM
Well, i aint no kendo student, but being a sci. nerd alone, i know that the force created from two hands is greater then twice as great as one, or greater then the sum of its parts.

Also, Kubo obviously wants us to keep guessing which espada is 1,2,or3. With that said, and based on previous posts, he really F****** succeeded

As for baragn, now he may just be the "weakest one in the room" based on what weve seen of him, however i see him as a unique character. someone said they like the cool quiet types, yet being cool and quiet can be equally as arrogant, thinking you are that much better then others. also, the quiet ones tend to be boring and stale. i love idiots like grim and ken who are always screaming and pissed. There is prolly a good reason for baragan's ego. lazy people may be born lazy, just as reserved people are born reserved, but rarely are grumpy old men born grumpy
...and they are definetly never born old

Doombot
October 09, 2008, 07:51 PM
As for baragn, now he may just be the "weakest one in the room" based on what weve seen of him, however i see him as a unique character. someone said they like the cool quiet types, yet being cool and quiet can be equally as arrogant, thinking you are that much better then others. also, the quiet ones tend to be boring and stale. i love idiots like grim and ken who are always screaming and pissed. There is prolly a good reason for baragan's ego. lazy people may be born lazy, just as reserved people are born reserved, but rarely are grumpy old men born grumpy
...and they are definetly never born old

I agree with this big time! I want to actually learn of Barragan's back story... is he the oldest Espada? Was he King before Aizen? Stark and Halibel was boring as hell.

Onomatopoeia
October 09, 2008, 07:56 PM
Barragan is number one, he's the only one Kubo has actually given a personality to. Halibel and Stark are just... their.

Seriph2
October 09, 2008, 08:19 PM
To be honest im not really concerned with the rankings I think its more along the lines of what someone said earlier, they are all maybe not EXACTLY the same in power but at their level they are all going to be so powerful that the rankings wont really mean all THAT much its kind of like comparing kobe bryant and michael jordan both have achieved alot and while jordan may be the better player as far as his accomplishments go you can make the argument for both.

Im much more concerned with how these fights will be handled, I just hope its done in a believable fashion and as straight to the point as possible no DBZ long face offs and intervals. Im really curious to see what exactly mayuri discovered and what kind of "power up" is in store for ichigo im really hoping for another zangetsu meeting as currently thats the only logical powerup for him, his bankai is just way too bland and "incomplete".

Nightfall
October 09, 2008, 11:09 PM
All I care about is seeing some great fights up to and even after the demise of the remaining Arrcanar/Espada. That said we're still forgetting the three captains stuck behind the castle. Do you honestly think they (the remaining captains and lieutenants) will have enough left in the tank to face Aizen, Ichmaru and Tosen?!

CrimsonANBU
October 09, 2008, 11:15 PM
How is Matsumoto gonna fight Halibel's 3 fraccions? Where is Yamamoto's lieutenant?

When Halibel ans Startk already start fighting, I think this means they're not #1.

I think the order for the last 3 espada are the following: Barragan is number 3 just cuz he acts all high and mighty and I wouldn't think that fits the strongest Espada...Halibel would be number 2 because of her collected attitude towards things...and lastly Stark would be the # 1 ranked Espada...just by his carefree lazy attitude...not to mention the fact that Ukitake and Kyoruku sought to fight the "strongest" out from the get go(sorry Carlin forgive me for using that phrase may you rest in the comedy legends spot in heaven)AND don't forget that Aizen sent Stark to capture Orihime..where not one..but TWO Espada failed in return of precious captive...I think...if he wanted her returned he would send his strongest soldier to do the job...

Nightfall
October 09, 2008, 11:19 PM
Crim,

I honestly agree with you that Stark (to me) is the #1 Espada. He's just got that...look about him. Barragan, for all his posturing, isn't someone I'd equate with acceptable leadership skills.

CrimsonANBU
October 09, 2008, 11:37 PM
Whats going to happen after they defeat Aizen(thats if they do...cuz as of now if he said he was god...I would believe him)...And doesn't Aizen still have a Hollow transformation to go through? Not to mention he still has most of the captains of the Gotei 13 under his "control" and still has yet to release his bankai...not to mention theres gin....and touzen...you know what? i think gins gonna betray Aizen...not to become a good guy...but...like the next "bad guy"

Chad powers that of a hollow? Does this mean his legs will get a cool upgrade...as well as a mask? Will we ever see Grimmjow ever again? Will Aizen succeed only to get butt whipped by the Kings Royal Guard? Does Yoruichi have a zanpaktou? Will Kenpatchi ever attain his shikai state? Not to mention bankai? Not to mention (#2) a hollow transformation? Ichigo's dad had to be dead in order to be a captain right? Does that mean he uses a gigai? Ishida takes on the worse possible opponents out there...cmon...scientists? Guys who nullify your powers? I think he would not have problems with other opponents that didn't make it a living to try to dissect you Man soo many questions left unanswered...

Bleach has serious DBZ syndrome I mean prolonging fights does not solve the answer...if this series wants to survive I think it would have to speed things up...DBZ syndrome? Basic theory of how it takes only Goku to screw in a light bulb...just takes him 8 episodes plus 3 specials and 1 flashback to how he found the lightbulb to do so...

Nightfall
October 10, 2008, 12:08 AM
Crim,

It might have that but at least a) the fights don't take NEARLY as long and b) there are some interesting interplays between the minor characters and the main ones.

drewvanlor303
October 10, 2008, 12:48 AM
Bleach power levels are so darn confusing. I mean seriously, Halibel vs Toshiro!?!?! Halibel should wipe the floor clean with Toshiro. The Stark fight I can understand somewhat because Kyouraku should be significantly strong considering how long he has been in the Gotei 13. If Aizen can be strong as heck, then Ukitake and Kyouraku should be pretty powerful. I would be surprised if anyone was to go toe to toe with Yama-jin after he easily handled both Ukitake and Kyouraku.

Nightfall
October 10, 2008, 12:51 AM
Well one must consider that Barragan isn't what we call that smart. If he was, he wouldn't have challenged Old man Yamma to a fight.

Secondly I think your under-estimating Toshiro's ability. He's got a bankai for goodness sake! I'm pretty sure he can handle what is to come against Halibel.

Doombot
October 10, 2008, 01:11 AM
Well one must consider that Barragan isn't what we call that smart. If he was, he wouldn't have challenged Old man Yamma to a fight.

Secondly I think your under-estimating Toshiro's ability. He's got a bankai for goodness sake! I'm pretty sure he can handle what is to come against Halibel.

This Barragan bashing is pissing me off. He figured out instantly how to break the spell. He's the only one of the top 3 Espada that has anything interesting characteristics since Halibel and Stark act exactly the same.

Nightfall
October 10, 2008, 01:13 AM
I'm not suggesting Barragan is a bad character. I merely think he's...underwhelming at times.

Hockeychaoz
October 10, 2008, 01:29 AM
Secondly I think your under-estimating Toshiro's ability. He's got a bankai for goodness sake!


So does Renji... >_>.. and we all know about him...

Nightfall
October 10, 2008, 01:30 AM
Hockey (btw nice handle!),

Yeah but he never got to USE it thanks to Syael(sp).

Doombot
October 10, 2008, 01:33 AM
I'm not suggesting Barragan is a bad character. I merely think he's...underwhelming at times.

Defend to me what Stark and Halibel has done that are amazing besides standing around?

Nightfall
October 10, 2008, 01:49 AM
Well Stark stole Ori-hime right out from under Ichigo's nose for starters...

Hockeychaoz
October 10, 2008, 01:49 AM
IMO, we're going reading too into this.
Look at the fights previous to this, the match ups were exactly as you'd expect.
Yumichika vs Coolhorn? The only 2 people to actually care about looks?
Ikkaku vs Po? Anyone remember Ikkaku's first arrancar opponent?

I think just looking at this for simplicity sake will give us the right answer. Hitsu is strong. There's a lot of hate going around because of his past battles, all of which he won I might add, but I'm sure he can at least hold his own. His bankai can prove fairly useful. Now, that being said, I would not make him on par with the #1 Espada. Making him fight with the #2 Espada is something I could live with, except for the fact that this is a mega FU to Ukitake and Shunshui. Unless Soi Fon cleans up in this chapter and decides to take on Barragan, we're going to see an old man fight.

No espada will be a match for Yama except for the #1 Espada, it just can't work any way but that. He's been built up too much, and if hes beaten, then whats the point of even continuing the manga? We can't even begin to think that Ichigo = Yama.

So, here's my thinking.

If Soi Fon enters the brawl and Yama is saved for Aizen and Co:

Stark is #1
Halible is #2
Barragan is #3

If Yama actually fights Esapda:

Barragan is #1
Stark is #2
Halible is #3

I prefer Stark as #2 IMO. Seems like it might suit his character a bit better.



Okay, now this is my prediction that I am very confident is going to come true. It works too well for it not to come true:

Okay, first fights we are going to see are:
Soi Fon vs Fraccion
Omaeda vs Fraccion

Then Soi Fon is going to go help Hitsu, and Omaeda will go help Rangiku. Yama's vice will come in and help Rangiku also, becuase quite honestly, I like her character but pitting 2 captains against single fraccion, then a vice against 3 lol, kinda cheap if she wins.

We'll see the vice captains fights simultaniously, and a single chapter where the vices beat all their respective fraccion. Then we will see the Soi Fon & Toushiro vs Halible fight. After that, the Dynamic Duo vs Stark, then Yama vs Barragan fight.

It's weird, but I can't see Stark dying. IMO, his character and overall demeaner will have to change over the course of this battle. The way he is right now, he's just too likable. You can't kill off a character that likable without losing fanbase :(. Maybe he's slightly insane?

Oh ahh, and one last thing. Someone a few weeks ago mentioned that Halible's high shirt thing that covers her face is covering some pretty nasty scars/something ugly underneith. This theory is tops! Watch for it.

CrimsonANBU
October 10, 2008, 02:35 AM
Enough we all will soon find out what ranks the Espada are soon enough...because they will announce their rank and title right before they fight...common courtesy right? Anyway I still stand on the firm belief that barragan is #3 he just acts like hes top dog. Notice wen this first began he asked if Stark had any problems with him being in charge...stark doesnt seem like the type to take charge just because he's #1. And there was Lilinet and how she kicked stark the moment he said it as if say "WTFH? YOU ARE LETTING A LOWER RANK PUSH YOU AROUND?" also....seeing that Aizen must have really wanted Orihime back as soon as possible...why not send your strongest to go claim your baggage? its way better then sending gin or touzen...i think aizen just got annoyed that there was this little minuscule bug destroying his armys Lts.(Espada)

serventarcher
October 10, 2008, 02:40 AM
It's weird, but I can't see Stark dying. IMO, his character and overall demeaner will have to change over the course of this battle. The way he is right now, he's just too likable. You can't kill off a character that likable without losing fanbase :(. Maybe he's slightly insane?
Oh man, insane Stark is not something I want to see. Maybe his release will change something. I truly don't know what to expect from that. The same goes for Lilinette. She doesn't even have a weapon. Stark vs. Kyouraku & Ukitake is the only battle I care about :/

I'm still sticking with:
1. Stark
2. Barrigan
3. Halibel

Though the battle results might make me change my opinion :[

BTW is Soifon up against a boy or a girl. This probably seems pointless to most people, but I'm really curious.

Finally @ Crimson: It's Aizen, not Aisen. Sorry, but that was starting to annoy me.

Omi_XII
October 10, 2008, 02:40 AM
Tousen's bankai is horribly flawed. Grab his sword and he's screwed. Find anyone with good reflexes and he's dead. Or heck, put a Kidou Expert in his Bankai and they'll fire off one of the giant Kidou's and hit Tousen. Good reflexes or AOE attacks are Tousen's bane.

Byakuya's bankai and Mayuri's are probablly the only two truly perfected ones, that we've seen so far.


Not really. If we're being honest, Tousen could have ended that fight had he not been arrogant, and wanted to exact Justice. The initial release of his Bankaigave him a -massive- edge which, if used properly, could have killed anyone. Zaraki is just too much of a major story character to get killed in that manner, and I think Kubo wanted to show off the Bankai at an early stage.

Completely blind and deaf, Tousen had the ability to make one swift strike at Zaraki and end him as quickly as it started, however he didn't. Perhaps the person is horribly flawed by judgement, but his Bankai certainly isn't.

CrimsonANBU
October 10, 2008, 02:57 AM
All you people bombing hitsuyaga for being the weakest captain...shame on you...leave the poor kid alone...the youngest captain i admit that...but the weakest? its possible...but first of all he was the first captain to face the(urahara doesn't count losers) arrankar first one(captain i mean) to actually face an espada(lupi)and would have beat him 2...plus given his previous failures i think he would have trained a lot more to become stronger...and his bankai count down? maybe its because hes just so young that he cant handle the overwhelming power(gohan complex?)anyway...i think this is gonna be a good fight...if he can take on gin head on...then whats an espada(probably ranked #2) 2 him? I mean gin is hella stronger than an espada right? should be...my only worry would be his vice captain....taking on THREE faccions? THREE? WTFH? course...we are not sure if she has a bankai or haven't scene too much of her zanpaktou's abilities(in the manga)

on another note...is urahara still banished from the soul society? And will ichigo's dad and ishida's dad get to fight? ryoken is one of the most badass charaters kubo has produced...cmon...u know its true...he points and sh!t blows up? doesn't even have to use his other hand to shoot the arrow...plus hes a doctor that smokes...enough said right?...but his spirit bow....that lame ass fairy/cupid looking thing...kind of ruins his badassness(wow....never used that before...)
[hr]


Finally @ Crimson: It's Aizen, not Aisen. Sorry, but that was starting to annoy me.

...all i can say is wtf? Why even bother to correct me? Could have just PMed me saying it...i wonder if you would have been all butt hurt if i started using Sōsuke or actually saying his whole name? Geez bleach fan-dom...you ppl need to seriously chillax...same with narutards...personally i could care less...but for "your" enjoyment...ill do this...

Seriph2
October 10, 2008, 03:07 AM
All you people bombing hitsuyaga for being the weakest captain...shame on you...leave the poor kid alone...the youngest captain i admit that...but the weakest? its possible...but first of all he was the first captain to face the(urahara doesn't count losers) arrankar first one(captain i mean) to actually face an espada(lupi)and would have beat him 2...plus given his previous failures i think he would have trained a lot more to become stronger...and his bankai count down? maybe its because hes just so young that he cant handle the overwhelming power(gohan complex?)anyway...i think this is gonna be a good fight...if he can take on gin head on...then whats an espada(probably ranked #2) 2 him? I mean gin is hella stronger than an espada right? should be...my only worry would be his vice captain....taking on THREE faccions? THREE? WTFH? course...we are not sure if she has a bankai or haven't scene too much of her zanpaktou's abilities(in the manga)

on another note...is urahara still banished from the soul society? And will ichigo's dad and ishida's dad get to fight? ryoken is one of the most badass charaters kubo has produced...cmon...u know its true...he points and sh!t blows up? doesn't even have to use his other hand to shoot the arrow...plus hes a doctor that smokes...enough said right?...but his spirit bow....that lame ass fairy/cupid looking thing...kind of ruins his badassness(wow....never used that before...)
<hr noshade size="1">


...all i can say is wtf? Why even bother to correct me? Could have just PMed me saying it...i wonder if you would have been all butt hurt if i started using Sōsuke or actually saying his whole name? Geez bleach fan-dom...you ppl need to seriously chillax...same with narutards...personally i could care less...but for "your" enjoyment...ill do this...



What are you puffin on? pass that ish cuzz ur somewhere else on another level.

CrimsonANBU
October 10, 2008, 03:11 AM
Completely blind and deaf, Tousen had the ability to make one swift strike at Zaraki and end him as quickly as it started, however he didn't. Perhaps the person is horribly flawed by judgement, but his Bankai certainly isn't.

If tousen wanted to...you are right one swift strike would have kill kenpatchi...but tousen just got caught up in his monologue...and everyone knows thats where you get your ass handed to you...right in the middle of your monologue...but if tousen would have done the former...he wouldnt be tousen and the chapter would have not been interesting....plus kenpatchi? DYING?
i personally think that tousen's bankai is one of those that is intended to kill its opponent very swiftly...but my question is...why was he monologuing? normally people monologue in order to tell the person they are about to kill to repent(or the blab on about there elaborate plan etc...)but kenpatchi was deaf? therefore monologuing + deaf person = useless? perhaps he was monologuing for his extreme distaste for kenpatchi being a traitor to the gotei 13...but then again...he was also a traitor correct?

serventarcher
October 10, 2008, 03:14 AM
...all i can say is wtf? Why even bother to correct me? Could have just PMed me saying it...i wonder if you would have been all butt hurt if i started using Sōsuke or actually saying his whole name? Geez bleach fan-dom...you ppl need to seriously chillax...same with narutards...personally i could care less...but for "your" enjoyment...ill do this...
lol I could care less about Bleach. Right now I'm only reading for Stark.

You can call Aizen what ever the hell you want. I just have a fetish about spelling things correctly. Can we just leave it at that?

CrimsonANBU
October 10, 2008, 03:47 AM
lol I could care less about Bleach. Right now I'm only reading for Stark.

You can call Aizen what ever the hell you want. I just have a fetish about spelling things correctly. Can we just leave it at that?

yes we can...i am only reading bleach for a number of reasons...
A) Kenpatchi
B) Chad or Sado(likeigivadamn)
C) Ryoken ishida
and lastly Stark...because hes lazy..im lazy...shikamaru is lazy... being lazy make you sorta a genius...
[hr]
You know what? I think Aizen would be terribly annoyed at the fact that hes just standing around in a gigantic ball of flame...gin would be doing something like sorta odd balled while tousen would be abnormally cool headed(no pun intended) whats is kubo thinking? Stark seems a bit t0o relaxed...maybe he doesn't like believe in the ideals of aizen...maybe he just wants to live his life(existence) as a Vasolorde...who knows
[hr]
Hmm just reading over some of the very first posts...and most of the latter posts...an insane stark would not seem outta the ordinary...i mean the possibility of him losing control could be the likely fact of why he hes just the chillest Espada there...He might be a psycho for all we know...and just doesn't wanna lose his cool and start destroying things. Though...i would LOVE to see that happen because then it would force 2 of the strongest captains to go all out...which would take away from the DBZ syndrome and such and we would wanna wait to see the fight but why did the top 3 Espada have to have soo many damn fraccions...eff thanks for making this one hellof a long what...15-45min battle last what...2-3 weeks?

gold349
October 10, 2008, 04:14 AM
IMO, we're going reading too into this.
Look at the fights previous to this, the match ups were exactly as you'd expect.
Yumichika vs Coolhorn? The only 2 people to actually care about looks?
Ikkaku vs Po? Anyone remember Ikkaku's first arrancar opponent?

I think just looking at this for simplicity sake will give us the right answer. Hitsu is strong. There's a lot of hate going around because of his past battles, all of which he won I might add, but I'm sure he can at least hold his own. His bankai can prove fairly useful. Now, that being said, I would not make him on par with the #1 Espada. Making him fight with the #2 Espada is something I could live with, except for the fact that this is a mega FU to Ukitake and Shunshui. Unless Soi Fon cleans up in this chapter and decides to take on Barragan, we're going to see an old man fight.

No espada will be a match for Yama except for the #1 Espada, it just can't work any way but that. He's been built up too much, and if hes beaten, then whats the point of even continuing the manga? We can't even begin to think that Ichigo = Yama.

So, here's my thinking.

If Soi Fon enters the brawl and Yama is saved for Aizen and Co:

Stark is #1
Halible is #2
Barragan is #3

If Yama actually fights Esapda:

Barragan is #1
Stark is #2
Halible is #3

I prefer Stark as #2 IMO. Seems like it might suit his character a bit better.



Okay, now this is my prediction that I am very confident is going to come true. It works too well for it not to come true:

Okay, first fights we are going to see are:
Soi Fon vs Fraccion
Omaeda vs Fraccion

Then Soi Fon is going to go help Hitsu, and Omaeda will go help Rangiku. Yama's vice will come in and help Rangiku also, becuase quite honestly, I like her character but pitting 2 captains against single fraccion, then a vice against 3 lol, kinda cheap if she wins.

We'll see the vice captains fights simultaniously, and a single chapter where the vices beat all their respective fraccion. Then we will see the Soi Fon & Toushiro vs Halible fight. After that, the Dynamic Duo vs Stark, then Yama vs Barragan fight.

It's weird, but I can't see Stark dying. IMO, his character and overall demeaner will have to change over the course of this battle. The way he is right now, he's just too likable. You can't kill off a character that likable without losing fanbase :(. Maybe he's slightly insane?

Oh ahh, and one last thing. Someone a few weeks ago mentioned that Halible's high shirt thing that covers her face is covering some pretty nasty scars/something ugly underneith. This theory is tops! Watch for it.

every time a close shot has been done of her face you can make a little of her mask under her collar, IMO its the mask she covers.:)

Omi_XII
October 10, 2008, 06:14 AM
I think Yama-ji and Barragan make one hell of a badass match-up.

Regardless of rank, Barragan has to be immensely strong when in his Hollow Released form purely for the fact he's so old, and has managed to reside within HM for so long. (Not to mention the obvious crown on his head.)

I'm actually clinging on to a glimmer of hope that Barragan and Yama-ji have an old past together that wont be revealed until perhaps Barragan releases, and shows his true form. Perhaps it will spark a memory when Yama-ji see's his true form. I guess it makes some form of sense; they are both old and have lots of scars. I thought if Hollows attack and hurt each other (I.E. Slash,Scratch, Bite.) then they lose the ability to progress in strength, so I'd assume the scars on Barragans face are probably from a shinigami, maybe during his infancy as a Hollow.

Of course this is speculation. x_x But it would be badass. Old Master V.S. Old Nemesis! Muuurtaaaal Kooooooombaaaaat! FIGHT!
[hr]
OMFG!! I found a leaked picture of Barragans released form, Charging a Cero. No need to thank me, just remember who brought this fantastic bit of imagery to you:

http://www.lolsauce.com/RandomBS/lazerz.jpg

Yeah,thats right. He's clearl #1 from the look of this picture.

gfire2
October 10, 2008, 06:18 AM
a 1v1 against the top 3 espada?

u gotta be kidding rite........... my prediction is that the 3 captains will lose and the vaizards will enter to save their asses

Darek Khort
October 10, 2008, 06:49 AM
I can see Halibel's fraccion comparing their sizes to Matsu since they seem to be so competitive (see Grim vs Ichigo fight).
I still believe Hitsugaya will release, freezing the fraccion and temporarily freezing Halibel and slightly freezing Matsu.

The way Yama and Baragan were presented in the first page seems to pull more towards the Baragan-is-no.1 idea. However if that were the case I don't understand why his fraccion never once mention him as no.1; only as their king.
Call my a stark fanboy but I'm still clinging onto the idea that Stark is no.1 and I still stick to the idea that Baragan used to be the King of Hollows but was overtaken by Stark, Aizen and co.
Given his personality Baragan just can't accept that he isn't King of HM anymore so he still clings onto his old title, with his fraccion being loyal servants from the time he was still King; thus just like Baragan they only accept him as their leader.

I predict the battle order as:
1. Omaeda and Soi Fon - Mainly cause I just want Omaeda to die, or at least just hurry up. He doesn't seem too interesting. And be over and done with with Soi Fon's fight.
2. Hitsu & Matsu - I reckon this will be interesting with Hitsu losing his petals and his freeze-ability spreading out of control devastating Halibel's fraccion cause I can't see Matsu taking on 3 fraccion.
3. Ukitake and Kyoraku - The most anticipated as for now. Want to see their bankai. Want to see Stark's power. I'm personally also interested in Lilinette. For Stark to only have one fraccion and not care that she is there in front of Kyoraku and Ukitake, when Kyo's vice-captain (god, forgot her name) was so frightened of Yama would perhaps mean that either Stark isn't that powerful...or...Lilinette is pretty strong herself.


...of course all of that will come after Ichigo's fight. I don't see Kubo continuing the fake Karakura fights; not after this chapter.

Hollow Kurono
October 10, 2008, 07:03 AM
Man,Im so pumped up for this fight now.And when Stark aproached those two and one of them said "Good idea!" I was like,yes.Something funny is gonna come up,but seems like were gonna see a full out battle now.Cant wait to see everybodys bankai.

Its kinda heartbreakin that Hitsuguya always gets the hot women,I mean hes with Matsumoto daily and now Halibel,its unfair I was so hoping for a Soi-Fon,Yoruichi,Halibel fight.

Now that they started fighting,plz go back to HM and show us a bit of Ichigo and Ulq,and if it doesnt hurt Kubo,show Grimmjow :) and its kinda sad that Byakuya aint around fightin all the espada.Well..wonder when the Vizards are gonna come in.



every time a close shot has been done of her face you can make a little of her mask under her collar, IMO its the mask she covers.


or maybe her hollow hole is on her face somewhere :) but I say its a mask to.

Omi_XII
October 10, 2008, 07:23 AM
I'm starting to think that Fraccion don't really matter that much in terms of rank. If it was a case of Espada needing more Fraccion the lower they get in rank, then Noitra would have had more; He only had one. Nel initially had two; where as the third now will either have six, three or one. Grimmjow also commanded five (?? god knows, I can't remember. It was roughly this number) earlier on in the Arc, but this didn't reflect his position, so I don't think we can use this as an excuse for Barragan being number 3.

I'm not really interested in who gets the highest number as I doubt there will be a big difference in power between them, or atleast between the second and third and I'm certainly sticking with my instinct that Wonderweiss is going to be the strongest of them all. He's very young compared to the other Espada which could suggest he's a product of Aizen's completed research after testing it on the other Espada, who from the looks of things have spend a couple of Decades as Hollows.

something that bugs me: Everyone uses Barragan's arrogant, dominating personality to judge him unfit to be rank 1 among the Espada and although any of them could be #1, alot of peoples comments about Barragan seem really hypocritical. (Yes, Stark-Fanboys I'm talking about you.) Stark is pretty arrogant himself, to be honest. his lack of care for the other Espada, and distaste towards aizen's commands could be seen as arrogance. Plus the whole ''Let's pretend to fight. '' He's practically not taking two of the strongest Shinigami seriously. That's exactly what Barragan did in regards to his Fraccion V.s. Ikakku and Co.

I find his character pretty typical, and borish. He's almost the joke of the Espada, being kicked around by his own Fraccion, and spoken to like that. and yes, I know..Alot of times in Manga's, people like that who get bossed about somewhat tend to end up being one of the strongest, but for some reason I just can't see it. Perhaps I'm wrong. I hope not.

gfire2
October 10, 2008, 08:16 AM
I'm starting to think that Fraccion don't really matter that much in terms of rank. If it was a case of Espada needing more Fraccion the lower they get in rank, then Noitra would have had more; He only had one. Nel initially had two; where as the third now will either have six, three or one. Grimmjow also commanded five (?? god knows, I can't remember. It was roughly this number) earlier on in the Arc, but this didn't reflect his position, so I don't think we can use this as an excuse for Barragan being number 3.

I'm not really interested in who gets the highest number as I doubt there will be a big difference in power between them, or atleast between the second and third and I'm certainly sticking with my instinct that Wonderweiss is going to be the strongest of them all. He's very young compared to the other Espada which could suggest he's a product of Aizen's completed research after testing it on the other Espada, who from the looks of things have spend a couple of Decades as Hollows.

something that bugs me: Everyone uses Barragan's arrogant, dominating personality to judge him unfit to be rank 1 among the Espada and although any of them could be #1, alot of peoples comments about Barragan seem really hypocritical. (Yes, Stark-Fanboys I'm talking about you.) Stark is pretty arrogant himself, to be honest. his lack of care for the other Espada, and distaste towards aizen's commands could be seen as arrogance. Plus the whole ''Let's pretend to fight. '' He's practically not taking two of the strongest Shinigami seriously. That's exactly what Barragan did in regards to his Fraccion V.s. Ikakku and Co.

I find his character pretty typical, and borish. He's almost the joke of the Espada, being kicked around by his own Fraccion, and spoken to like that. and yes, I know..Alot of times in Manga's, people like that who get bossed about somewhat tend to end up being one of the strongest, but for some reason I just can't see it. Perhaps I'm wrong. I hope not.

yep couldnt agree more, if stark was the strongest and how u described him would make perfect sense, since there is no1 stronger than him y do the work wen ppl at the lower rank can do it for u

hajialibaig
October 10, 2008, 09:07 AM
I think the scene will change back to Hueco Mundo next week, and we'll get a glimpse of Rukia/Chad/Renji against Hollows for 13-15 pages, and then an update on the Ulquiorra fight for 2-4 pages. That's all.

So who's looking forward for next week's chapter..... ?

HisshouBuraiKen
October 10, 2008, 09:12 AM
God, what a shitty, boring chapter. The last 2 pages are what should've been happening for like a month now.

ShaunMati1
October 10, 2008, 09:23 AM
Actually this chapter isnt so bad. Its not great, but it isnt that bad. Ya now we really know whos fighting who. We get a more personal view of stark. We realize hitsu is going to get his ass handed to him -- actually no he wont. Kamomura wasnt in that chapter...i think kubo might make him help hitsu.

I also hope we go back to ichigo and ulquiorra...ive been waiting for that fight ever since ulqui pulled out his sword. I cant wait till we see ichigo and ulqui. I was an update on the captains.

gold349
October 10, 2008, 09:37 AM
God, what a shitty, boring chapter. The last 2 pages are what should've been happening for like a month now.


excatly my sentiments, at least its started, they have at least touched swords like you say should have been at least a few chapters ago.

Anyway I wonder what Hitsu was refering to when telling Matsamoto about 'heistation'..was he thinking of Gin?.

Certainly the fights cannot all go the way of the captains....we know there are other players yet to come in to this battle. Hitsu, many think is going down against Halibell, IMO he isn't the only one but he seems most apparent. Many think Aizen could have some other forces yet not at battle scene, IMO Aizen, Gin and Tousen will be too much for SS to handle once they have all been battling Espada, fraccion. Aizen before he left took out/on some captains by himself, that difference should have widened now and that is were I think the Vaizrad come into play. If they don't come to help the SS captains against espada then they shall to face Aizen and co.

ryanzokuken
October 10, 2008, 09:49 AM
I think just looking at this for simplicity sake will give us the right answer. Hitsu is strong. There's a lot of hate going around because of his past battles, all of which he won I might add, but I'm sure he can at least hold his own.



yea or ONE of which he won. (Shawlong)

patedecarne
October 10, 2008, 10:02 AM
Shunsui's bankai, Shunsui's bankai!!!

Oh, Shunsui vs Stark, just one by one, what an exciting battle is coming!!From all these battles, this one is the one I'm expecting most: probably Stark, secondo espada, fighting agains Shunsui, alone, too good to be true ^^^

Now we'll see why Shunsui is said to be one of the strongest..

And about Ukitake, Yamma jii and Barragan? Just staying still? something else must happen....

notBowen
October 10, 2008, 10:30 AM
Shunsui's bankai, Shunsui's bankai!!!

Oh, Shunsui vs Stark, just one by one, what an exciting battle is coming!!From all these battles, this one is the one I'm expecting most: probably Stark, secondo espada, fighting agains Shunsui, alone, too good to be true ^^^

Now we'll see why Shunsui is said to be one of the strongest..

And about Ukitake, Yamma jii and Barragan? Just staying still? something else must happen.... Or more likely... Cut to Ichigo! Fuck yeah! And then the Vizards still walking! Anything that's not fighting!

Eye of the tiger
October 10, 2008, 10:36 AM
Shunsui's bankai, Shunsui's bankai!!!

Oh, Shunsui vs Stark, just one by one, what an exciting battle is coming!!From all these battles, this one is the one I'm expecting most: probably Stark, secondo espada, fighting agains Shunsui, alone, too good to be true ^^^

Now we'll see why Shunsui is said to be one of the strongest..

And about Ukitake, Yamma jii and Barragan? Just staying still? something else must happen....

With you on that Pate.. I really wanna see Shunsui and Jushiro's shikai-bankai.. hopefully Kubo's not gonna dissappoint.

But seriously, Kubo's really just wasting time the last 2 chapters..

hajialibaig
October 10, 2008, 10:45 AM
With you on that Pate.. I really wanna see Shunsui and Jushiro's shikai-bankai.. hopefully Kubo's not gonna dissappoint.

But seriously, Kubo's really just wasting time the last 2 chapters..

I for once would rather have chapters like this and cherish them while the moment lasts.... bleach is gonna be over, sooner or later, and that's inevitable...So why not have more chapters and get to see more character development, etc.. Rushing things just ends them too quickly..

Omi_XII
October 10, 2008, 11:00 AM
Prediction for next weeks chapter:

And now commences a 3 week break in the Manga whilst Kubo goes skiing before finally resuming with more monologue of Yama-Ji telling the Captains to get the Espada, and Barragan telling his Fraccion to never back down!

Eye of the tiger
October 10, 2008, 11:01 AM
I for once would rather have chapters like this and cherish them while the moment lasts.... bleach is gonna be over, sooner or later, and that's inevitable...So why not have more chapters and get to see more character development, etc.. Rushing things just ends them too quickly..

There wasn't much character dev in this chapter anyways.. but still, I kinda agree with what u say. Thing is, once kubo starts concentrating on the individual fights, then there's gonna be a ton of blah-blah and character development anyways, so pre-hashing it all for 2 chapters is boring. I'd rather have him show more signature moves/counters than just stares and glares.. especially the whole barragan thing was a rehash from 3 months ago.. we already know he's imperious.

hajialibaig
October 10, 2008, 11:25 AM
There wasn't much character dev in this chapter anyways.. but still, I kinda agree with what u say. Thing is, once kubo starts concentrating on the individual fights, then there's gonna be a ton of blah-blah and character development anyways, so pre-hashing it all for 2 chapters is boring. I'd rather have him show more signature moves/counters than just stares and glares.. especially the whole barragan thing was a rehash from 3 months ago.. we already know he's imperious.

We learned Barragan's full name, a bit more about the relationship between Yamamoto/Shunsui/Ukitake and Stark's speech was awesome. Only thing that is kinda bothering me is if Hitsugaya somehow pulls off a win, I'll never accept that. Other than that, it was a great chapter!

Rotten The Wizard
October 10, 2008, 11:27 AM
wait...HITSUGAYA against Halibel?

good god the boy is gonna get slaughtered

omegafrijol
October 10, 2008, 11:33 AM
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315/12-13/

Correct rankings even if you all say no.

1.Barragan (He thinks like a arrogant king, sit mightily as a king, and gives orders like a king)

2.Halibel (Active she doesn't underestimate the opponents even if they are weak, loyal to Aizen words) (In this case Toshiro)

3.Stark (Cause he the most lazy of the espadas) makes sense fighting against the most lazy of the captains(Shunsui).

Is it me or the bleach series are becoming sucky dumb series...?

CrimsonANBU
October 10, 2008, 11:37 AM
wait...HITSUGAYA against Halibel?

good god the boy is gonna get slaughtered

Don't hate on Hitsuyaga...He's sure of himself...not like the other times...im thinking he was milking info from the first fight he had...the second fight I think he was counting on Lupi not to bother after he hit him...He and his vice captain are sure of themselves...Cuz they basically have everything on the line here...

Seta Soujirou
October 10, 2008, 11:44 AM
Hitsugaya is a lucky chap, gets Matsumoto got lieu and now Halibel for opponents...busty~

Soi Fon is so gonna destroy that faccion of Barragan...His faccion are the lousiest in my view...

I hope some of the good guys die here...but honestly i think the author doesn't seem to be heading in such a direction...

drewvanlor303
October 10, 2008, 11:57 AM
Good guys will probaly get pounded and their "backup" will save them.

CrimsonANBU
October 10, 2008, 12:20 PM
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315/12-13/

Correct rankings even if you all say no.

1.Barragan (He thinks like a arrogant king, sit mightily as a king, and gives orders like a king)

2.Halibel (Active she doesn't underestimate the opponents even if they are weak, loyal to Aizen words) (In this case Toshiro)

3.Stark (Cause he the most lazy of the espadas) makes sense fighting against the most lazy of the captains(Shunsui).

Is it me or the bleach series are becoming sucky dumb series...?

Correct? Haha that's a laugh u must be as arrogant as you are ignorant seeing that we have no sure way to tell what the exact rankings are. Right know its a matter of personal opinion. And seeing that you are arrogant maybe that why you consider Barragan to be rank one? For the record im just bashing on you cuz you think you are absolutely certain that these are the rankings? How can you possibly know? Are you Kubo? Or a member of his team?

Rankings(my opinion)

1. Stark- Lazy. Care free. Seems like he wouldn't be leader type correct? But Aizen PERSONALLY asked him to retrieve Orihime where Ulquiorra failed. Plus he has only one fraccion...and being number one ppl would expect way to much from you right? So if your lazy not to mention strong they ask others to do the menial tasks correct? Only when those others fail...thats when you have to get up...so im just speculating that he is first...just cuz your older( can Hollows age?)Doesn't make you stronger.(old man Yama Being an exception)

2. Halibel- Coolness and levelheadedness suggest a strong leadership type, but she just doesn't seem the type. Plus I think that she has 2 many Fraccions to be ranked number one. If you were number one would you have more than one Fraccion? Would you have any? They would tend to get in the way of your awesome power?

3. Barragan- Full of hot air? Pride of a hollow syndrome? Grimmjow syndrome? Byakuya complex? Arrogant and thinks himself king. 2 important to fight huh? that doesnt sound like the strongest of Aizens Lts. It doesn't seem like the strong type..it sounds like hes making up for his loss...plus of the 3 he has the most Fraccions... just an old bag...If you had the power of the strongest of all hollows(speculation) would you act like an old fool on a throne?

Rotten The Wizard
October 10, 2008, 12:25 PM
hey anyone suspect Urahara of beign up to something naughty?

I mean along with the town he should be in soul society right? And there's almost no one powerful left there......

I have a feeling Urahara is cooking up something big.
I called it first

quote me on that

CrimsonANBU
October 10, 2008, 12:43 PM
I would really hate to see them Clash Swords only to go into some flash back or possibly HM...Though...if it did go to HM it would either go to the Ichigo ulquiorra fight...or to my extreme distaste...chad, renji, ryukia, and etc's fight..but then again...they went from ichigo storming the castle...to fillers on Urahara(though I sorta liked those flashbacks built up more than the Uraharas...it built on the vaizards...Aizen...and strangely enough why Shuuhei has a 69 on his face(I think that number is a bit inappropriate to put that on someones face...) should have just left it on his chest like that vaizard(forgot his name for the time being..you know...the one that was a captain with the really annoying vaizard as his vice 69 on his chest...)
[hr]
haha...no i think urahara is sorta done with the soul society...for know at least...wouldn't it be a trip for ALL of ichigo's friends to get powers? Asano...haha...nvm...anyway...man forgot what i was gonna say...damn...

hajialibaig
October 10, 2008, 12:50 PM
Well, if Stark is fighting only Shunsui, and ends up losing, he'll be #3. Like how many people here think that Shunsui is gonna lose?

InfinityMan
October 10, 2008, 12:52 PM
Based on what we've seen so far the most unanticipated fights will start first. Order of events in chronological order:
1. Omaeda vs Fat Fraccion. 2. Soifon vs sabertooth Fraccion. 3. Matsumoto vs Halibel's fraccion. (She then gets aid from Ikkaku, because Sajin will be gaurding the pillar)
4. Then cut to Hueco Mundo, where Mayuri is trying to figure out how to create a garganta by his own means in Szyael's lab. 5. Then Ulquiorra vs Ichigo. 6. Then the top three Espada fights.
By having Ulquiorra fight before any of the top three Espada, we'll get a better understanding of just how powerful they are.

Hockeychaoz
October 10, 2008, 12:55 PM
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315/12-13/

Correct rankings even if you all say no.



Hahaha, get over yourself.

And yes, that link is a picture of the espada :) Want a cookie?

Here's a picture of Orihime :)
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/43/05/

It serves about as much purpose as your link does.

CrimsonANBU
October 10, 2008, 01:07 PM
Based on what we've seen so far the most unanticipated fights will start first. Order of events in chronological order:
1. Omaeda vs Fat Fraccion. 2. Soifon vs sabertooth Fraccion. 3. Matsumoto vs Halibel's fraccion. (She then gets aid from Ikkaku, because Sajin will be gaurding the pillar)
4. Then cut to Hueco Mundo, where Mayuri is trying to figure out how to create a garganta by his own means in Szyael's lab. 5. Then Ulquiorra vs Ichigo. 6. Then the top three Espada fights.
By having Ulquiorra fight before any of the top three Espada, we'll get a better understanding of just how powerful they are.

I dont think Mayuri would try to find away out...not with all the goodies that HM has to offer...i think grimmjow will be a main factor in getting them out...OMG GRimmjow ichigo vs ulquiorra? nah...haha...not to mention there is that Guy that got kicked outta the espada...nell(who is not fully heal still has crack in mask)her fraccions...plus...mayuri already might KNOW a away out...he is Uraharas second...and lastly i thinks its gonna cut straight to HM...

Omi_XII
October 10, 2008, 01:14 PM
Hahaha, get over yourself.

And yes, that link is a picture of the espada :) Want a cookie?

Here's a picture of Orihime :)
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/43/05/

It serves about as much purpose as your link does.

That isn't Orihime. It's Aizen's Zanpakutou. Dear me, do you know nothing?

(Yes, this was a joke, so please spare me your ''LOLZ OMFG U THNK THTS AZN?!?111)

nicxiii
October 10, 2008, 02:04 PM
oh guys c'mon.. hitsugaya is one of the most popular characters in bleach and i know that kubo will not let hitsufans down..

xXAshisogiJizoXx
October 10, 2008, 02:36 PM
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315/12-13/

Correct rankings even if you all say no.

1.Barragan (He thinks like a arrogant king, sit mightily as a king, and gives orders like a king)

2.Halibel (Active she doesn't underestimate the opponents even if they are weak, loyal to Aizen words) (In this case Toshiro)

3.Stark (Cause he the most lazy of the espadas) makes sense fighting against the most lazy of the captains(Shunsui).

Is it me or the bleach series are becoming sucky dumb series...?

wow, i completely and utterly disagree w/ what you just said on so many lvls, les see
- ur baragan theory; EXTREMELY flawed (noitra)
- ur stark theory; you are prolly in a one percent minority of bleach readers who thinks lazy people are the weak ones
- ur halibel theory; name a women in any manga who is the strongest of anything(besides a group of women), also, a lot of loyal characters end up being not too strong
...anyways, i will do my best to not get drawn into the subject of espada rankings again

Now, someone said that baragans fraccion are the worst, and yet, who are we comparing to. weve only seen grims fraccion, and that fight is somewhat difficult to discern seeing how much they were winning in the beginning to how much they failed after the limit was lifted (i think its the element of surprise, but anyway) then we have friggin tesla, to say he was i hit ko'ed is a huge understatement, one slash, three peices, DONE (mind you, one slash from an eyepatched and unwarmed-up kenpachi). szayels fraccion were all weak, but thats cuz figthing wasnt their purpose. so really, from what we have seen of the fraccion, baragans are the most powerful thus far, seeing how the strength of grim's are very debatable.

also, i could definetly imagine grim becoming a good guy. i generally dont like it when that happens, but in bleach i wouldnt mind b/c it would save grim from that whole "only bad-guys die" theme. i also wouldn't mind a gaiden arc on HM about (speculating here) the "old regime" under baragan, w/ aa being the primero espada of the first gen and baragan as king. and is nel was somehow his daughter or sumthin, and is a baby when aizen arrives to take over HM, killing the queen, and baragan hiding from the fact that hes her father, and then, she is raised by aa...lol. (actually, maybe aa, due to his ugliness teaches her to be more tolerant, and thus more human, and then eventually kick her out, seeing as he is anti-socialish in my opinion) and eventually we see (under aizen rule), some noitra/nel interaction b4 they become espadas and start disliking each other, eventually growing into the hate they had for one another...., lol, sounds sorta like a soup opera, and damn would that make nel have one depressing backstory (dad abandons her, foster pops banishes her, potential lov interest hates her...lmao) but i would love to see a character who has suffered so much and not become all emo, would def. make nel more kickass then she already is. Anyway, i generally love seeing the "bad-guy" point of view, cause it helps obscure the line between what is good and what is bad. like giving characters like baragan and aa more human qualitites, despite the crap weve seen them do, gives it...DRAMA
...mad drama...
...yo...
...ill stop
except i have no idea how this gaiden would fit in if this is supposed to be the "end of bleach", but wutever

poobert
October 10, 2008, 02:59 PM
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315/12-13/
Is it me or the bleach series are becoming sucky dumb series...?

Bleach has been the same for over two years now. It is rubbish if you are reading one chapter a week, but much better if you go at it in chunks. It takes forever for anything to ever happen, but the content is pretty good (except the little back story bit which had a perfect pace)


I loved the way Halibel drew her sword http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/329/17/. It has a sense of foreboding about it. She is going to kick so much ass.

I have a prediction. I think that the espada are going to win the initial skirmish pretty convincingly so a reshuffle of characters is going to happen (Hitsugaia won't be able to touch Halibel who is too awesome). But before they can fight the Vizard + Urahara + cat lady are going to arrive. Aizen and Gin and blind dude will get spooked and then fight the Shinigami while we have a Vizard vs. Espada showdown.

ryanzokuken
October 10, 2008, 03:32 PM
also, i could definetly imagine grim becoming a good guy. i generally dont like it when that happens, but in bleach i wouldnt mind b/c it would save grim from that whole "only bad-guys die" theme. i also wouldn't mind a gaiden arc on HM about (speculating here) the "old regime" under baragan, w/ aa being the primero espada of the first gen and baragan as king. and is nel was somehow his daughter or sumthin, and is a baby when aizen arrives to take over HM, killing the queen, and baragan hiding from the fact that hes her father, and then, she is raised by aa...lol. (actually, maybe aa, due to his ugliness teaches her to be more tolerant, and thus more human, and then eventually kick her out, seeing as he is anti-socialish in my opinion) and eventually we see (under aizen rule), some noitra/nel interaction b4 they become espadas and start disliking each other, eventually growing into the hate they had for one another...., lol, sounds sorta like a soup opera, and damn would that make nel have one depressing backstory (dad abandons her, foster pops banishes her, potential lov interest hates her...lmao) but i would love to see a character who has suffered so much and not become all emo, would def. make nel more kickass then she already is. Anyway, i generally love seeing the "bad-guy" point of view, cause it helps obscure the line between what is good and what is bad. like giving characters like baragan and aa more human qualitites, despite the crap weve seen them do, gives it...DRAMA
...mad drama...
...yo...
...ill stop
except i have no idea how this gaiden would fit in if this is supposed to be the "end of bleach", but wutever


i love Grimmjow. he's one of my favorite characters (along with Shinji, Gin, and Ichigo).

on the surface, he's a rough, vulgar punk. when he was first introduced (in the anime. i wasn't reading the manga yet at that point.) i didn't like him. he was such an in-your-face dick to everyone, a cocky, tough guy punk. kind of surfer looking, too, with his open jacket and wildly styled blue hair :p

and i assumed from his normal appearance that his release would be something to do with a shark.

but as we've seen more of him, up to the end of his final fight with Ichigo, he's such an awesome character. much deeper than the gruff jerk he acts like all the time. he's had a rough life, even for a hollow, and despite his "i don't give a f*ck about anything, let's just fight, you weakling!" front, he's actually got more to him. his journey through hollow life, evolution, making friends and companions for the first time, having them give up their evolution and allow him to eat pieces of them so that he could progress, losing them in battle because of his own impulsive, bad decisions, serving under Aizen and his surperios Espada, and now his "i hate you but i respect you" relationship with Ichigo.

if he became an anti-hero and helped take out Ulquiorra or fight against Aizen's side, maybe even teaming up with Ichigo, that would bring him full circle and make him a truly awesome anime character. i hope, and strongly believe it will happen.

xXAshisogiJizoXx
October 10, 2008, 03:57 PM
but as we've seen more of him, up to the end of his final fight with Ichigo, he's such an awesome character. much deeper than the gruff jerk he acts like all the time. he's had a rough life, even for a hollow, and despite his "i don't give a f*ck about anything, let's just fight, you weakling!" front, he's actually got more to him. his journey through hollow life, evolution, making friends and companions for the first time, having them give up their evolution and allow him to eat pieces of them so that he could progress, losing them in battle because of his own impulsive, bad decisions, serving under Aizen and his surperios Espada, and now his "i hate you but i respect you" relationship with Ichigo.

if he became an anti-hero and helped take out Ulquiorra or fight against Aizen's side, maybe even teaming up with Ichigo, that would bring him full circle and make him a truly awesome anime character. i hope, and strongly believe it will happen.

YES, i agree 100%, complex characters are the best, and despite all hes gone through, hes not an open book. nor is he like byakuya, who becomes all serious and cold, jus cuz his wife died (a traumatic experience, but ur avg. hollow has prolly gone through much more). characters who are not whta they seem rock. its kinda like dordoni, he looked like an idiot at first, yet we are eventually revealed to the fact that hes not only a competent fighter, but also has his own reasons and code of honor. and this goes back to why i like to see from the eyes of the proclaimed bad guys. heck, i even hated noitra a little less once i got his back story, and you see his inferiority complex

personally i think that the main thing bleach has going for it is its characters, and based upon the above posts, that is why some people even read bleach, so in a way, character development is just as important as plot. however, developing characters comes at a price, seeing as not everyone likes the same characters, so when someones character isnt up, they may start saying "bleach sux", and nowhere good as one peice, etc. etc.

Josear XIII
October 10, 2008, 04:13 PM
Something stark did in this chapter made me realize he is not really the 1st espada. He asked Ukitake and Kyoruku to just pretend to fight instead of fighting. Now you might say it’s because of personality but I don’t think so.
When you face a stronger opponent or one of equal strength, you don’t ask them to pretend to fight coz that’s just insulting them and showing cowardice. If the same thing is done with a weaker opponent, it makes sense but here it is totally inappropriate!
Either Stark is weak or he is just so ridiculously strong that Ukitake and Kyoruku are not even remotely close to his power level! As the later scenario is unlikely, Stark is just not first espada!

of all the reads i have could done, yours got me so badly that i cant pay attention to others, XD no that is that serious, is just that i have high hopes on stark to have the 1st espada seat, i didn't see your point of view, instead i feel like stark is saying, "im not only far strong than you, but also, not interested in this issue" this is way more powerful aura than Barragan's since he feels like a god, starks besides look even more powerful than him, reasons? this strategy of pretending to be fighting is very more like he is also confident that his companions will win, that is why he asked that, in order to see who are the ones standing in the end, think it carefully, he may recognize a little strength in the shinigami side, but he knows Aizen is WAAAAYYY Stronger than all standing there, if at the end of the battle there are more Aizen underlings standing, then shinigami side lose, so why get hurt or pushed around by fighting if your mind is settled up in your side's victory, but since a doubt remains in his head he wants to see if its necessary in the end to go all out against shinigami side, or the remains of them.

At least that's my thought

But this post its just friendly, i like a lot to discuss points of view, dont take me as a Narutard or so, and thanks to everyone who take the time to read my post :)

Raizen
October 10, 2008, 04:21 PM
It seems to me like halibel wanted to fight hitsu. That means hitsu is not as weak as most people her believe. I am still hoping his countdown is about his true power. When the petals all dissapear, a huge explosion of ice will break and hitsu will become a ice warrior. He will fight using hand-to-hand combat. The explosion will kill all of halibel's fraccion and almost hits matsumoto but ukitake saves her.

As for those saying that the captains will lose and then urahara and youruichi showing up to save them. As much as I like urahara and youruichi but if ukitake and shunsui lose, I doubt they could make much of a difference. i could see youruichi helping soifon but I see the espadas being defeated and killed except for starks and then aizen laughs and says it was all my plan...

gold349
October 10, 2008, 05:12 PM
It seems to me like halibel wanted to fight hitsu. That means hitsu is not as weak as most people her believe. I am still hoping his countdown is about his true power. When the petals all dissapear, a huge explosion of ice will break and hitsu will become a ice warrior. He will fight using hand-to-hand combat. The explosion will kill all of halibel's fraccion and almost hits matsumoto but ukitake saves her.

As for those saying that the captains will lose and then urahara and youruichi showing up to save them. As much as I like urahara and youruichi but if ukitake and shunsui lose, I doubt they could make much of a difference. i could see youruichi helping soifon but I see the espadas being defeated and killed except for starks and then aizen laughs and says it was all my plan...


a copy of the diamond dust rebellion were his friend turns to the big ice dragon:D.

He does show ice feet/hooves/claws when he is in bankai or is that just anime? a count down to something ubber would go well with me. I was just going over old material and read where grandfisher gets whooped by kurasaki isshin, started to realise what I like about bleach, I want some of isshin action too. Espada vs Captains is cool but I want more maybe I'm being selfish/greedy though I know kubo will please.:D

The Adamant Dragon
October 10, 2008, 05:38 PM
Just wanted to check out sumthin' , Did anyone else noticed that Shunshui's weird Behavior? I could almost swear with the way he spoke to Stark that this isn't the first time they've met.

I just want to see if anyone else saw it the same that I did. So no flaming here...
Read their conversation closely.

http://img34.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/000084632/14.jpg (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/329/15/)

The way he says (Shunshui) " I Can't do that... Not this Time" --- Maybe a translation error but It just came out of nowhere and has nothing to do with the actual conversation.

It has nothing to do with his earlier statement (Shunshui) " And I Hate getting Hurt!

Maybe I just gave it too much attention coz Shunshui's my primery Bleach-Character but still...


but I see the espadas being defeated and killed except for starks and then aizen laughs and says it was all my plan...


Hahaha, that would be crazy. But what's sure is that he's got a dozen of Back up plans. The other thing is that he want his espadas to weaken SS' Captains enough so that when he's freed from Yamamoto's "Jail Fire", he can wipe 'em out with ease.

bittman
October 10, 2008, 05:52 PM
Sigh.

Once again bleach throws us many fights and then laughs at us by excluding some people from them.
1) What's Ukitake doing?
2) Where the hell did Nanao go?
3) Is Komomaru coming back or not?
4) Are Yama and Barrigen just going to sit around watching the other fights.....again?!

Anyway, I'm most looking forward to Shunsui v Stark and Matsumoto v 3 fraccion. I'll be surprised if Soi Fong struggles at all, but most likely she'll have to take on both fraccion as Oomeda will lose. And Hitsuguya is strong, though I did always consider him the weakest it's been shown to not be true according to some databooks. Of course, these data books put him above Gin so I don't place too much faith in it.

EDIT: Also, Aizen laughing? Hahaha. He'll just do a smug twerpy grin.

serventarcher
October 10, 2008, 05:54 PM
of all the reads i have could done, yours got me so badly that i cant pay attention to others, XD no that is that serious, is juts that i have high hopes on stark to have the 1st espada seat, im didnt see your point of view, instead i feel like stark is saying, "im not only far strong than you, but also, not interested in this issue" this is way more powerful aura than Barragan's since he feels like a god, starks besides look even more powerful than him, reasons? this strategy of pretending to be fighting is very more like he is also confident that his companions will win, that is why he asked that, in order to see who are the ones standing in the end, think it carefully, he may recognize a little strength in the shinigami side, but he knows Aizen is WAAAAYYY Stronger than all standing there, if at the end of the battle there are more Aizen underlings standing, then shinigami side lose, so why get hurt or pushed around by fighting if your mind is settled up in your side victory, but since a doubt remains in his head he wants to see if its necessary in the end to go all out against shinigami side, or the remains of them.

At least that's my thought

But this post its just friendly, i like a lot to discuss points of view, dont take me as a Narutard or so, and thanks to everyone who take the time to read my post :)

Wow your post impressed me. You said almost everything that I couldn't put into words myself. So thank you for posting this :)



Just wanted to check out sumthin' , Did anyone else noticed that Shunshui's weird Behavior? I could almost swear with the way he spoke to Stark that this isn't the first time they've met.

I just want to see if anyone else saw it the same that I did. So no flaming here...
Read their conversation closely.

http://img34.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/000084632/14.jpg (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/329/15/)

The way he says (Shunshui) " I Can't do that... Not this Time" --- Maybe a translation error but It just came out of nowhere and have nothing to do with the actual conversation.

It has nothing to do with his earlier statement (Shunshui) " And I Hate getting Hurt! "
You might have something there, but I'm not too sure what to think. If they did meet before was it when Stark was still a hollow (or whatever) or is there something else that hasn't been revealed? lol I might be thinking too much though.

The Adamant Dragon
October 10, 2008, 06:08 PM
You might have something there, but I'm not too sure what to think. If they did meet before was it when Stark was still a hollow (or whatever) or is there something else that hasn't been revealed? lol I might be thinking too much though.


No you're free to throw in all kind of Ideas, coz right now we really don't know what to expect from Kubo... I can't wait for him to clear things up, and things are moving at a slow pace right now. ( But then again, it's good 'cause he's making caracter development -- Ikkaku' for exemple -- ).

Thanks tarcher.

Raizen
October 10, 2008, 06:24 PM
Sigh.

Once again bleach throws us many fights and then laughs at us by excluding some people from them.
1) What's Ukitake doing?
2) Where the hell did Nanao go?
3) Is Komomaru coming back or not?
4) Are Yama and Barrigen just going to sit around watching the other fights.....again?!

Anyway, I'm most looking forward to Shunsui v Stark and Matsumoto v 3 fraccion. I'll be surprised if Soi Fong struggles at all, but most likely she'll have to take on both fraccion as Oomeda will lose. And Hitsuguya is strong, though I did always consider him the weakest it's been shown to not be true according to some databooks. Of course, these data books put him above Gin so I don't place too much faith in it.

EDIT: Also, Aizen laughing? Hahaha. He'll just do a smug twerpy grin.
I think shunsui didn't bring nanoa b/c he knows the battle is going to be dangerous. He is very protective of her. I mean he must being feeling that way due to what happened to risa. I mean it was his idea to send her off to fight and then she got hollowfied.

@adamant dragon. I don't know. But to me it sounds like he was saying he usually just ignore and doesn't fight serious, but he can't afford to do it this time b/c of what is at stake. I don't think it has anything to do w/ him knowing starks. IDK it is just my interpretation of it LOL

serventarcher
October 10, 2008, 06:31 PM
No you're free to throw in all kind of Ideas, coz right now we really don't know what to expect from Kubo... I can't wait for him to clear things up, and things are moving at a slow pace right now. ( But then again, it's good 'cause he's making caracter development -- Ikkaku' for exemple -- ).

Thanks tarcher.
True, but for some reason I say that all the time.
I am expecting Kubo to reveal a lot like he did with the negative chapters. At least he better.

ryanzokuken
October 10, 2008, 06:34 PM
i think Shunsui's "not this time" remark is just implying that normally he fights lazily, as he does everything, but this is one battle with too much importance, and a battle in which he has to give it his all.

and as for Yama standing around, who knows, he may not be able to take part in the fights and keep the fire prison going simultaneously. maybe he needs full concentration to keep the circle of flames up and spinning. he said he was trapping those three so that the captains could take care of the espada at their leisure (as if it will be that easy) and then handle the former captains.

xXAshisogiJizoXx
October 10, 2008, 07:38 PM
in the fights to come, i would like to see some ikkaku redemption, as he has to make up for his epic failure of letting the pillar get destroyed from pride, and reveal his bankai. Also b/c this may be the last oppurtunity we get to see him fight. Im thinkin he could either use it to wipe out several fraccion, or distract an espada (perhaps to save hitsu), by no means do i think hes capable of a prolonged fight with an espada, just long enough for sumthin to happen. Also, we saw some koma action, but not nearly enough. I NEED MORE SAJIN. And as much as i like iba after his little speech however, he should stick to defending the mini-pillars, cuz he still don't seem that strong, just cool, with his yakuza shades.

also sasakibe, or wutever his name is, he is a vice-cpt, yet we know more about peshe then we do him...hes gotta do sumthin. he looks like a fencer, so it'd be cool if he had a lot of swordsman skill (but got owned by ichigo due to having very little reatsu)id like it if omaeda lost, and sas came to save him (loser #2 savin loser #1 lol)

hajialibaig
October 10, 2008, 08:00 PM
Halibel looks so cool in that panel prior to which she unsheathes her sword in. I can imagine her fight against Hitsugaya going as follows:

Hitsugaya goes Bankai, and charges towards Halibel
Halibel shunpu's him and does an Aizen style cut to his right shoulder
Hitsugaya dies :D

That'll be a an epic chapter//
[hr]
And also, just as a reminder, even if Hitsugaya might have higher stats than Gin or other captains in that data book it means nothing.....

Those charts are not meant to compare characters. They are meant to show how powerful individual characters are compare to their own maximum potentials. So one cannot determine based on those charts that X is > Y etc

Josear XIII
October 10, 2008, 08:02 PM
Wow your post impressed me. You said almost everything that I couldn't put into words myself. So thank you for posting this :)

My why, it is you who i have to thank, for taking the time to appreciate it:tem , i dont really post a lot but it feels good when someone notice


All you people bombing hitsuyaga for being the weakest captain...shame on you...leave the poor kid alone...the youngest captain i admit that...but the weakest? its possible...but first of all he was the first captain to face the(urahara doesn't count losers) arrankar first one(captain i mean) to actually face an espada(lupi)and would have beat him 2...plus given his previous failures i think he would have trained a lot more to become stronger...and his bankai count down? maybe its because hes just so young that he cant handle the overwhelming power(gohan complex?)anyway...i think this is gonna be a good fight...if he can take on gin head on...then whats an espada(probably ranked #2) 2 him? I mean gin is hella stronger than an espada right? should be...my only worry would be his vice captain....taking on THREE faccions? THREE? WTFH? course...we are not sure if she has a bankai or haven't scene too much of her zanpaktou's abilities(in the manga)

i just cant find strength in this little fella, i think kubo is giving him more and more importance coz he stand always in the Pop Polls. But i Cant find reasons to trust this little guy, not even the fact that he is the so supposed reincarnation of a special being born in seireitei every X centuries or years or whatever.


God, what a shitty, boring chapter. The last 2 pages are what should've been happening for like a month now.

agreed, very cool scenes but in the end very disappointing




3. Barragan- Full of hot air? Pride of a hollow syndrome? Grimmjow syndrome? Byakuya complex? Arrogant and thinks himself king. 2 important to fight huh? that doesnt sound like the strongest of Aizens Lts. It doesn't seem like the strong type..it sounds like hes making up for his loss...plus of the 3 he has the most Fraccions... just an old bag...If you had the power of the strongest of all hollows(speculation) would you act like an old fool on a throne?

even if i really crack up with this and i really want it to be true, i cant, the facts are clear for the fact that Barrragan is #2, remember when he started giving orders, when he order hali to shut her trap, not only she shut, but he remind her who was higher than who, i like hali a lot, she has a really crazy and cool design but the facts are clear, and it is needed, at least, some old man in the higher ranks, coz it would be rare not to XD


Now for the matsumoto thing, i highly doubt that she can go against them, sure the haineko will act as Gaara's sands guarding her from all the attacks, but it takes a lot of years to fight 3 people at the same time, damn it would be like a Dragon Ball Z chapter, GO GOKU!!!!!! XD i dont doubt she is powerful, or skilled, it just troubles me that she could carry a fight against 3 people, if was the case of kenpachi, he wouldn't mind since he does not care about being cutted or badly injured, he taste that just fine, hope you see my point in here, most probably, since its a CATS FIGHT, nanao would join, and dont know who else, it could be that kiddie girl that is the 3rd officer of ukitake, not that i remember if she is there or not.

NOW ISSUE THAT GOT ME TOO.

I have seen a lot of post talking about the so called lameness into the way Kenpachi won against Noitora (damn i still dont know how to spell it >.<)

Its my opinion, not trying to eat no one in here. I think it was the more suited way to let kenpachi beat that punk, why? simple, a lot of people which i consider simple minded, wants kenpachi to have shikai or even bankai like, OMG KENPACHI WITH BANKAI OR SHIKAI CAN PWN EVERY BEING IN EARTH. Totally agree, it would possibly be the most powerful character in the whole series, of course if that where to happen, but i dont want it to happen, if kubo would do something like that it would not even spoil, it would down the grade of the character to 0 it would be 5h1t!!!, kenpachi is a warrior, a great fighter confident in his power and his crazy joy for battles are awesome, and thats way i agree with the kendopachi thing, coz kendo, is really a martial art that give you a lot of strength i practiced kendo for like 6 months, and its not the same, when you start giving "men" (the same strike that kenpachi threw to noitora) the first time, and after 6 month once you fully can swing a shinai and hear it cutting trough the wind, damn a great sensation. So imagine kenpachi, a man that in the 2nd movie(which i watched yesterday) only with reiatsu was capable of lifting that damn castle like rock and slash it with just one hand, were to give a blow like that it is quite strong in normal people, put it in hands of kenpachi, and combined with a wave of reiatsu, i dont even know how were still traces of noitora XD(exaggerated a bithe has, or better said had the strongest hierro so he is forgiven to stand before the greatness of kenpachi), it was really well suited that kenpachi won the battle that way.

Now i totally agree that it way too fast, meaby if he went aginst him like for 6 to 8 pages of striking action and notoria realizing that he is being owned really bad and in the end giving him that strike to finish him of, that would really had been awesome.

And in case it sounds like for me kenpachi is god, he is not, he is cool and all but in matters of captains i go all the way with my friend Mayuri, damn awesome captain, a genius indeed, Urahara too, hahaha i have a lot of favs in this manga, but when it comes to captains, it is mayuri or urahara what can i say im a fan of 12th division style

so thanks again to all who read this post, i know i consume a bit of your time

ryanzokuken
October 10, 2008, 08:41 PM
Josear, i completely agree.

i thought the Ken vs Noi fight was wicked badass, and the kendo thing was awesome. it's the perfect "powerup" for Kenpachi. i can't wait for that fight in the anime. i can imagine the end, Kenpachi gripping the hilt of his sword with both hands, cool, dramatic music playing.

and i also agree about the favorite characters thing. it's wierd to even call them "favorites" for me, because i have so many. bleach is full of cool, likeable characters. Ichigo, Shinji, Grimmjow, Gin, Kenpachi, Ikkaku, Urahara, Yoruichi, Soi Fon, i consider them all my favorites, lol.

Seriph2
October 10, 2008, 10:40 PM
A few things of importance.........



1.) Wonderweiss the espada urahara fought, I wonder what his role will be in all of this and where is he? Could he possibly be the only vastolord or why is he being kept in his current state?

2.) Why did Aizen allow himself gin and tousen to be trapped inside the flame wall and why did he comment on everything going as planned? Is it because he feels the 1-3 espada wont lose even though they are greatly outnumbered or because he has backup?

3.) What role do the vaizards have assuming they are "good guys" and aizens espada are defeated? Is this a form of foreshadowing for the defeat of the captains or for aizen having more espada OR maybe even hinting at the vaizards being on aizens side?

4.) This is a semi continuation of point 3, if the espada and aizen are already number wise outnumbered as much as they are, where will urahara, ichigos dad isshin and uryu's dad ryuken fit in what threat will we see that will require their presence.

5.) In order to create the kings key a large amount of souls are required correct? So who is protecting soul society and where is yammy ( remember his ability to absorb souls ).

TheChosenOne
October 10, 2008, 11:10 PM
Wonderweiss the espada urahara fought, I wonder what his role will be in all of this and where is he? Could he possibly be the only vastolord or why is he being kept in his current state?

I think he is likely in Hueco Mundo in Tousen's quarters. As for if Wonderweiss could be a Vasto, I think Ulq is likely a Vasto reckoning his Mask remnants are identical to a Vasto silhouette (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/197/16/). If Ulq is a likely Vasto, then the top 3 could be as well. :)


Why did Aizen allow himself gin and tousen to be trapped inside the flame wall and why did he comment on everything going as planned? Is it because he feels the 1-3 espada wont lose even though they are greatly outnumbered or because he has backup?The former seems to be the case, considering when he says the statement all three espada's are shown. So it's likely based on how powerful the top 3 are or he could be just overconfident (which I doubt, since he calculates how things play out). :)


What role do the vaizards have assuming they are "good guys" and aizens espada are defeated? Is this a form of foreshadowing for the defeat of the captains or for aizen having more espada OR maybe even hinting at the vaizards being on aizens side?At this point, Vaizards are a wildcard, they could hold resentment towards SS (for not believing them) and Aizen (for his experiments). :)


This is a semi continuation of point 3, if the espada and aizen are already number wise outnumbered as much as they are, where will urahara, ichigos dad isshin and uryu's dad ryuken fit in what threat will we see that will require their presence.Well they could come in during the battle against Aizen, Gin and Tousen. Imagine if Aizen is a Vaizard, SS would likely need extra hands like Isshin, Ryuken and others to battle him. :)


So who is protecting soul society and where is yammy ( remember his ability to absorb souls ).I'm not sure, there could be fodder shinigami or people like Urahara and others. As for Yammy, he is likely at Hueco Mundo, hopefully he gets a fight with Chad (payback for the arm). :)

Andonan
October 11, 2008, 12:47 AM
Sorry I'm a little confused does everyone now think that Stark is number 1?
I mean I REALLY REALLY hope he is, i think he could turn out to be one of my favorite characters in bleach....Plus I think the fact that he made Ichigo and Kenpachi look like slow weakling puts a big tick next to his name for top Espada, as well as old-man espada turning to Stark and saying "I hope that's ok" it could have been sarcastic it could be because he's number 2 to Stark.......

However I think Yami vs barragan is way too likely at this point and if that battle breaks out you have to think Barragan is #1 don't you?

I hope
1 - Stark
2 - Halibel
3 - barragan

but i still think it's

1- Barragan
2- Stark
3- halibel

Plus where the hell are these Espada hiding their numbers, they're ass? LOL actually taht would be funny if that was the case for halibel, it would also give Yoroichi to make some funny call being like "OH I LIKE WHERE YOUR TATOO IS! :p"

Anyway I can imagine (if my hopes come true) that Yami beats barragan all the Fraccion are defeated, halibel and Toshiro are still mid fight, but then there is a load scream or bang and Ukitake and Shunsui are down defeated with Stark standing over them saying "I told you I didn't want to fight" THAT WOULD BE EPIC!!!!
*Shot to all the other Shinigami (especially Yami) with incredibly shocked looks on their faces, all mouthin 'how'" then Stark pulls up his shirt and a massive 1 is on his chest, chapters ends with Stark saying "I'm going to sleep now" :p

ShaunMati1
October 11, 2008, 01:22 AM
I dont know what to think. I too cant wait for Shunsuii and stark. What i want to see is umm ichigo vs ulquiorra. What i would love to see is a scene change to HM and urahara and yoruichi is there trying to get them out. Urahara asks where ichigo is and scene changes to ichigos fight with ulqui. I would love that.

serventarcher
October 11, 2008, 01:32 AM
Sorry I'm a little confused does everyone now think that Stark is number 1?
I mean I REALLY REALLY hope he is, i think he could turn out to be one of my favorite characters in bleach....Plus I think the fact that he made Ichigo and Kenpachi look like slow weakling puts a big tick next to his name for top Espada, as well as old-man espada turning to Stark and saying "I hope that's ok" it could have been sarcastic it could be because he's number 2 to Stark.......
I don't see the point of him doing that since Stark doesn't care about anything except sleep (and maybe Lilinette). Unless Barrigan just likes being an ass.


Anyway I can imagine (if my hopes come true) that Yami beats barragan all the Fraccion are defeated, halibel and Toshiro are still mid fight, but then there is a load scream or bang and Ukitake and Shunsui are down defeated with Stark standing over them saying "I told you I didn't want to fight" THAT WOULD BE EPIC!!!!
*Shot to all the other Shinigami (especially Yami) with incredibly shocked looks on their faces, all mouthin 'how'" then Stark pulls up his shirt and a massive 1 is on his chest, chapters ends with Stark saying "I'm going to sleep now" :p
lol I like the way you think. I can see that happening (except Yama-jii vs Barragan) and it would be awesome if it did, but who knows what Kubo will do~

Doombot
October 11, 2008, 02:37 AM
Anyway I can imagine (if my hopes come true) that Yami beats barragan all the Fraccion are defeated, halibel and Toshiro are still mid fight, but then there is a load scream or bang and Ukitake and Shunsui are down defeated with Stark standing over them saying "I told you I didn't want to fight" THAT WOULD BE EPIC!!!!
*Shot to all the other Shinigami (especially Yami) with incredibly shocked looks on their faces, all mouthin 'how'" then Stark pulls up his shirt and a massive 1 is on his chest, chapters ends with Stark saying "I'm going to sleep now" :p

I would quit reading Bleach cause it turned two of the most interesting captains into losers. No Bankai? No anything? It would be a complete waste of time. I have no idea why there is so much love for Stark when he's done nothing at all and is a complete clone of Shunsui.

Hollow Kurono
October 11, 2008, 03:05 AM
but i still think it's

1- Barragan
2- Stark
3- halibel

Plus where the hell are these Espada hiding their numbers, they're ass? LOL actually taht would be funny if that was the case for halibel, it would also give Yoroichi to make some funny call being like "OH I LIKE WHERE YOUR TATOO IS! :p"


My opinion

1.Barragan
2.Halibel
3.Stark

I dont know.I think Aizen sent the weakest of those threee espada to get Inoue,not the strongest or the one in the middle,but the 3rd one,but I could be wrong and this aint much to prove it.


Oh yeah and Halibel takes out and "Im no.3 or 2 espada,but youre under-age so you cant see it!"


I dont know what to think. I too cant wait for Shunsuii and stark. What i want to see is umm ichigo vs ulquiorra. What i would love to see is a scene change to HM and urahara and yoruichi is there trying to get them out. Urahara asks where ichigo is and scene changes to ichigos fight with ulqui. I would love that.


Yeah that would be great.But before that they heal Grimmjow.And make him help fight Ulqiora.But thats just what I want to see.

Inkovic
October 11, 2008, 04:00 AM
God I am so sick of this arc.

When are we finally, FINALLY gonna see Ulquiorra vs Ichigo!?

We haven't seen the main characters of this manga fight in ages. Secondary characters should all be killed exponentially for character growth...

hyn_pride93
October 11, 2008, 04:53 AM
I think he is likely in Hueco Mundo in Tousen's quarters. As for if Wonderweiss could be a Vasto, I think Ulq is likely a Vasto reckoning his Mask remnants are identical to a Vasto silhouette (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/197/16/). If Ulq is a likely Vasto, then the top 3 could be as well. :)

True. But what bothers me is, Aizen said himself that he didn't acquire the Vastos yet. The only way that I think that Aizen could've achieved his goal is if he used the Hougyoku on Ulq, Halibel, Barragan, and Stark to try and reach the strength and power of the Vastos. I doubt Wonderweiss is a Vasto. If anything, he's just there to be another one of Aizen's backups.


The former seems to be the case, considering when he says the statement all three espada's are shown. So it's likely based on how powerful the top 3 are or he could be just overconfident (which I doubt, since he calculates how things play out). :)


Since Aizen did say that with all top three present, I'm pretty sure that his plans could go in any direction. One thing keeps on bothering me though. What if the top three are actually all number ones? That would be the major plot twist for not just me but for all. The reason for this is because all three seem to share the similar amount of power with each. Although Barragan stands out more by using his throne and being called the Emperor, he doesn't seem to be the number one. Many want and believe that Stark is number one and the same goes for Halibel. The only thing is this (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/318/12/). Baragan tells them that he's going to be taking control. If he were the top dog, why would he need to ask? If Halibel were lower than him, why would he need to reassure that she got what he was saying? As for Stark, well the silent ones are always the deadly. So this is why I think that they are all the Numero Uno Espada. That would mean that Aizen is right and that he doesn't need to move a finger for them to win. If not, then SS are really lucky.:p


At this point, Vaizards are a wildcard, they could hold resentment towards SS (for not believing them) and Aizen (for his experiments). :)


The Vizards aren't wildcard, IMO. They'll side on any side that Urahara chooses. I doubt that he wants to gang up with Aizen but if he did, then that would give us the next arc! :p But I for one believe that the Vizards won't do so and stay with Urahara all the way.


Well they could come in during the battle against Aizen, Gin and Tousen. Imagine if Aizen is a Vaizard, SS would likely need extra hands like Isshin, Ryuken and others to battle him. :)


Being able to see Isshin in action would be amazing, but Kubo will most likely not use him. The same goes for Ryuken. Ryuken is one who won't break any code. He will stay true to the ways of the Quincy and find no point in battling alongside SS. IMO.


I'm not sure, there could be fodder shinigami or people like Urahara and others. As for Yammy, he is likely at Hueco Mundo, hopefully he gets a fight with Chad (payback for the arm). :)

:d Been a while hasn't is TCO. So let's refresh your memory. It was this that Chad was involved with Yammy's arm. (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/193/08/) Yammy completely destroyed Chad's arm. But then it was Ichigo that cut off Yammy's arm. (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/193/09/):tem

[EDIT]: :darn I understand what you meant by the payback of his arm. My bad.

Andonan
October 11, 2008, 07:03 AM
You miss understood me doombot, sure i like Stark but I like him so much because he's a copy of Shunsui i like seeing two personalities that a similar go head to head, and common anyone who can make both Ichigo and Kenpchi look like fools in one page scores major points in my books LOL

Hollow Kurono
October 11, 2008, 07:30 AM
The Vizards aren't wildcard, IMO. They'll side on any side that Urahara chooses. I doubt that he wants to gang up with Aizen but if he did, then that would give us the next arc! :p But I for one believe that the Vizards won't do so and stay with Urahara all the way.



Being able to see Isshin in action would be amazing, but Kubo will most likely not use him. The same goes for Ryuken. Ryuken is one who won't break any code. He will stay true to the ways of the Quincy and find no point in battling alongside SS. IMO.





The Vizards are gonna get involved,the whole reason is to kill Aizen to the vizards,revenge people.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.12/19/

see they are going somewhere and I dont think they are going for a trip,maybe they are going to Urahara and then go pay the debts to Aizen.Or they are just gonna go straight to Aizen :) but Vizards wont sit this out,thats for sure.


Well I dont want to start any super arguments,but this is just me and it could be a possibility that Ishin is stronger then Genryu,if Ichigo is this strong,and hes been a shinigami for how long?And Ishin is a shinigami way longer,so I think hes stronger then Ichigo.But thats just my opinion,my opinion,dont flame for that.

Onomatopoeia
October 11, 2008, 10:01 AM
For all those saying it can't be Barragan thats strongest, did anyone other then me see that stareoff between him and The Strongest Shinigami? Stark isn't even battling Ukitake and Shunsui, even if he was Yama's still stronger then both of them.

Not only that But Barragan has development, Stark has...hmm... Laziness? And Halibel is um... we'll she's just their. I'm also quite sure that only one of the Espada's isn't fighting and neither has he brought out his sword. That alone speaks volumes.

And the Hitsuhate in this discussion is actually pretty funny.

And honestly Kenpachi with Bankai would get raped by Aizen using Bankai.

xPm
October 11, 2008, 11:56 AM
i'd like ukitake and shunsui to get hollowified and attack SS, would be 4 captains against 6 captains and 3 espada.

Then the vizard, urahara and co will be useful.
Urahara and ishin will probly take on aizen while the vizards take on gin and tousen, and take care of shunsui and ukitake to make them vizard aswell and the captains take on the espada.
Would be interesting.

Hockeychaoz
October 11, 2008, 12:02 PM
This is my prediction!

Soi Fon and Omaeda will beat their fraccions easy. This will set a strength level for Omaeda, and will show Soi Fon to be pretty bad ass.

Yama's vice and Omaeda will go help Rangiku, and Soi Fon will go to the aid of Histugaya.

Then we'll have 2 2v1 Espada fights, and 3 1v1 Vice fights.

Josear XIII
October 11, 2008, 12:57 PM
I don't see the point of him doing that since Stark doesn't care about anything except sleep (and maybe Lilinette). Unless Barrigan just likes being an ass.

well my dear, there is a point, and that is:

Barragan: I hope thats ok? (Translation: i expect that my plan is worthy of being followed since you are the strongest here)

Note: he didnt ask that to halibel, he just told her to shut her trap and respect the ranks, while with stark is a matter of, can i get your permission.

even lilinette told Stark, "are you gonna take that?!", poor lilinette readers of this manga doesnt notice her, there is a clear point, none of the halibel fraccion told halibel, "dont let him talk you like that, We do as we wish Halibel-sama" or something like that, if someone was capable of noticing, tell me, coz i dont see those damn words.


My opinion

1.Barragan
2.Halibel
3.Stark

I dont know.I think Aizen sent the weakest of those threee espada to get Inoue,not the strongest or the one in the middle,but the 3rd one,but I could be wrong and this aint much to prove it.

Yo, i think it was done by kubo tite in order to make stark appear, the way he doesnt care about if aizen sends a weak or a strong espada, but only reason i can see is that he moved with a fast pace, that it was kinda teleport. but we'll know sooner or later, but your point is very weak to be considered as a good reason to low the rank of stark


God I am so sick of this arc.

When are we finally, FINALLY gonna see Ulquiorra vs Ichigo!?

We haven't seen the main characters of this manga fight in ages. Secondary characters should all be killed exponentially for character growth...

CURSE YOU!!!, YOU DAMN DRAGON BALL Z FREAK!!!, ROT IN HELL XDDD nah just kidding, but seriously you have to check another series if you dont like this part of the arc, Ulquiorra Vs Ichigo, HAHAHAHA SUPER SUCKS, i'm not even interested in that fight, a thing that i liked about bleach is that the main is kinda not the main, which give the others a reason of being there, you sound like a DBZ fan coz your last words remain me this:

Goku: PICOLLO NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!! AAAAAAAAAARRRRGGGGHHHHH!!!!
(Gain power)

Goku: VEGITA NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!! AAAAAAAAAARRRRGGGGHHHHH!!!!
(Gain more power)

Goku: KRILLLIN NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!! AAAAAAAAAARRRRGGGGHHHHH!!!! (Turns into super saiyan)

Goku: VEGITA NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!! AAAAAAAAAARRRRGGGGHHHHH!!!!
(Gain way more power)

Goku: PAN NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!! AAAAAAAAAARRRRGGGGHHHHH!!!!
(SUPER SAYAN 4)

Goku: ALL NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!! AAAAAAAAAARRRRGGGGHHHHH!!!!
(Goku growth to the point none cant beat him)

this new series era, where secondary are turned into a more primary-secondary character, is the new essence of plots coz i dont know you, but when i was a kid i liked a lot of secondary characters but i had to swallow a crude "YEAH JOHN DOBE IS FINE BUT X IS THE MORE POWERFUL CHARACTER, HE PWN HIM A THOUSAND TIMES ALREADY AND NO MATTER WHAT JOHN DOBE DO, HE WOULD NEVER BEAT X" dude is kinda humiliating that your fav is always below the main character at least thats what i think.

Reasons behind my dislikes for ichigo vs ulquiorra? simple

I dont even figure in all my toughs, how the hell ichigo is gonna beat ulquiorra? till now i doubt Ichigo is a Sayan, to become stronger every time he is healed from lethal wounds, and the last fight he won was vs grimmjow (the way he lost, sucks) and he is number 6 and it wasnt a easy win, i think he has chances, because he pwn #5,..... WAIT WAIT WAIT, That was kenpachi, man i get confused, they are like twins (sarcasm at its maximum), so how the hell he jumps, from having the power of an Adjuchas, which by the way was the hollow level of Grimmjow to a VASTO(thats what evidences show) from 6 to 4 even in math there is a 5 and you cannot just jump it, so only if ichigo is a sayan i can approve it, otherwise that fight is a complete failure to the whole series, it would turn ichigo into a Goku or Seiya, you know Saint Seiya, but if you like these type of series where the main is GOD, then ignore the whole post XD


For all those saying it can't be Barragan thats strongest, did anyone other then me see that stare off between him and The Strongest Shinigami? Stark isn't even battling Ukitake and Shunsui, even if he was Yama's still stronger then both of them.

Not only that But Barragan has development, Stark has...hmm... Laziness? And Halibel is um... we'll she's just their. I'm also quite sure that only one of the Espada's isn't fighting and neither has he brought out his sword.

So what, you think that being stronger makes you want to be the lead guitar or something, lets go way back to rurouni kenshin, Hiko seujuro XIII was the strongest of the good sides, but he didnt jump to the battle like, ok im gonna beat shishio(and he could, coz he is far stronger than shishio,but like he said, this is your creation kenshin, you deal with it), being far stronger does not mean that you care about the whole situation, Yama-jii stares barragan, coz he looks like the fucking damn leader, coz he think he really is! and that means nothing. So to speak Yama-jii is calmly looking at the situation, Stark has stated tha he wont use his full power, it doesnt mean his full power is the same as shunsui or ukitake. so i still stay with Stark being espada numero 1, the things that he has shown only makes me see a great number 1 all over his face

Damn every times i post, i write longer and longer replies, damn, eventually someone is gonna kill me XDD

But thanks again to all the people that take the time to read all my post, i really appreciate it. Thanks to Ryanzokuken, he shares my point of view into the kenpachi affair XD thanks man!.

And again, dont take me like im being a narutard about this, i'm just a guy who likes to debates, discussions, and to argue, XD is kinda cool when you prove your point, it fells damn great:tem

ryanzokuken
October 11, 2008, 01:24 PM
to be fair, Barragan didn't ask permission from Stark. he didn't say "is that ok?"

he said "you better not have a problem with that...?"

Josear XIII
October 11, 2008, 01:49 PM
to be fair, Barragan didn't ask permission from Stark. he didn't say "is that ok?"

he said "you better not have a problem with that...?"

Really true, i'll retract from that part to make it right since i didnt checked to see if he really said that, here are the real talks:

This is from Carlos net awesome tranlations

Page 10
Barragan: ...Now then... // What do we do now...? // There are enemies everywhere... // ...and the Boss is stuck in there...

11
Halibel: You should not speak that way of Aizen-sama, Barragan.
Barragan: And you shouldn't speak that way to me, Halibel.
[Josear's note: Clear point, Halibel is shit in front of Barragan]

12
Barragan: ...Until the Boss gets out of there... // ...I'll be giving the orders round here. // Anyone... // ...got a problem with that?
[TN: PLEASE don't tell me that means he's number 1. Well, the fact that they're not outright revealing his number here makes me suspect that would be a little TOO obvious at this point... Or should that be "hope"...? >_<]
[Josear's note: he really said that so here is where i shut MY TRAP XD, but Da man! CNET is with starks being #1]

13
Stark: I ain't complaining. / Owww!! // What're you doing, Liline - / OWW!!
Lilinette: You're just gonna TAKE that from him?! / Stop messing around already...!!
Stark: But I...... // .........
[Josear's note: STOP MESSING AROUND!!!!! does that sounds like a underling telling someone to stop fooling, if that person is clearly weaker, damn no, it sounds like a "you are far stronger than him, please stop joking around", i think Stark in the end wanted to say, "But i dont even care about this, or But I think barragan can handle this"]

:P my toughs again, here is the link to the translation if someone has a doubt and it is chapter 318

http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35252

Onomatopoeia
October 11, 2008, 02:29 PM
well my dear, there is a point, and that is:

Barragan: I hope thats ok? (Translation: i expect that my plan is worthy of being followed since you are the strongest here)

Note: he didnt ask that to halibel, he just told her to shut her trap and respect the ranks, while with stark is a matter of, can i get your permission.

even lilinette told Stark, "are you gonna take that?!", poor lilinette readers of this manga doesnt notice her, there is a clear point, none of the halibel fraccion told halibel, "dont let him talk you like that, We do as we wish Halibel-sama" or something like that, if someone was capable of noticing, tell me, coz i dont see those damn words.



Yo, i think it was done by kubo tite in order to make stark appear, the way he doesnt care about if aizen sends a weak or a strong espada, but only reason i can see is that he moved with a fast pace, that it was kinda teleport. but we'll know sooner or later, but your point is very weak to be considered as a good reason to low the rank of stark



CURSE YOU!!!, YOU DAMN DRAGON BALL Z FREAK!!!, ROT IN HELL XDDD nah just kidding, but seriously you have to check another series if you dont like this part of the arc, Ulquiorra Vs Ichigo, HAHAHAHA SUPER SUCKS, i'm not even interested in that fight, a thing that i liked about bleach is that the main is kinda not the main, which give the others a reason of being there, you sound like a DBZ fan coz your last words remain me this:

Goku: PICOLLO NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!! AAAAAAAAAARRRRGGGGHHHHH!!!!
(Gain power)

Goku: VEGITA NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!! AAAAAAAAAARRRRGGGGHHHHH!!!!
(Gain more power)

Goku: KRILLLIN NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!! AAAAAAAAAARRRRGGGGHHHHH!!!! (Turns into super saiyan)

Goku: VEGITA NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!! AAAAAAAAAARRRRGGGGHHHHH!!!!
(Gain way more power)

Goku: PAN NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!! AAAAAAAAAARRRRGGGGHHHHH!!!!
(SUPER SAYAN 4)

Goku: ALL NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!! AAAAAAAAAARRRRGGGGHHHHH!!!!
(Goku growth to the point none cant beat him)

this new series era, where secondary are turned into a more primary-secondary character, is the new essence of plots coz i dont know you, but when i was a kid i liked a lot of secondary characters but i had to swallow a crude "YEAH JOHN DOBE IS FINE BUT X IS THE MORE POWERFUL CHARACTER, HE PWN HIM A THOUSAND TIMES ALREADY AND NO MATTER WHAT JOHN DOBE DO, HE WOULD NEVER BEAT X" dude is kinda humiliating that your fav is always below the main character at least thats what i think.

Reasons behind my dislikes for ichigo vs ulquiorra? simple

I dont even figure in all my toughs, how the hell ichigo is gonna beat ulquiorra? till now i doubt Ichigo is a Sayan, to become stronger every time he is healed from lethal wounds, and the last fight he won was vs grimmjow (the way he lost, sucks) and he is number 6 and it wasnt a easy win, i think he has chances, because he pwn #5,..... WAIT WAIT WAIT, That was kenpachi, man i get confused, they are like twins (sarcasm at its maximum), so how the hell he jumps, from having the power of an Adjuchas, which by the way was the hollow level of Grimmjow to a VASTO(thats what evidences show) from 6 to 4 even in math there is a 5 and you cannot just jump it, so only if ichigo is a sayan i can approve it, otherwise that fight is a complete failure to the whole series, it would turn ichigo into a Goku or Seiya, you know Saint Seiya, but if you like these type of series where the main is GOD, then ignore the whole post XD



So what, you think that being stronger makes you want to be the lead guitar or something, lets go way back to rurouni kenshin, Hiko seujuro XIII was the strongest of the good sides, but he didnt jump to the battle like, ok im gonna beat shishio(and he could, coz he is far stronger than shishio,but like he said, this is your creation kenshin, you deal with it), being far stronger does not mean that you care about the whole situation, Yama-jii stares barragan, coz he looks like the fucking damn leader, coz he think he really is! and that means nothing. So to speak Yama-jii is calmly looking at the situation, Stark has stated tha he wont use his full power, it doesnt mean his full power is the same as shunsui or ukitake. so i still stay with Stark being espada numero 1, the things that he has shown only makes me see a great number 1 all over his face

Damn every times i post, i write longer and longer replies, damn, eventually someone is gonna kill me XDD

But thanks again to all the people that take the time to read all my post, i really appreciate it. Thanks to Ryanzokuken, he shares my point of view into the kenpachi affair XD thanks man!.

And again, dont take me like im being a narutard about this, i'm just a guy who likes to debates, discussions, and to argue, XD is kinda cool when you prove your point, it fells damn great:tem

DBZ: (before any mod tries to delete this please note that he was bashing DBZ) DBZ is heck of a lot more epic then Bleach. Kubo(as do most mangakas) only wishes his Manga was as big as DBZ. Heck his Manga was obviously influenced by DBZ, your forumula is really all that needs to be looked at to prove this. And finally don't bring in this Dragonball Anime crap into my manga.

People put way to much stock in that one line. Nanoa said things that are alike. But Shunsui isn't the strongest captain, Lilinette just doesn't like the way that Stark is always so lazy because he's strong and she knows it but he never takes the initiative which annoys her. THis does not mean I think he's stronger then Barragan but that he is strong.

The comparison was wacked. Barragan= a Lead Guitarist? That makes no sense I could just as easily make a comparison between Tree's and the Arrancars. Besides Barragan would probablly have to be the best Guitarist for him to be the lead which is about the only way this weird comparison works out.

The example about Kenshin proves my point doesn't it? Barragan is the only one who isn't fighting.

Stark's not trying isn't equal to Shunsui's not trying because...? And honestly if their was as big a difference as you'd like to believe then Ukitake would help Shunsui out. But he didn't.

As for your post above mine...WHAT. You pretty much said if Halibel doesn't care enough to challenge Barragan then that means that she's shit but if the same happens to Stark he must be Number one. Double Standards.

Oni Shinigami
October 11, 2008, 02:32 PM
Rangiku Matsumoto has Bankai. That I can gaurantee.

Hitsugaya knows it all too well

Hitsugaya - "I hope there is no hesitation in your heart"

Rangiku - "What are you talking about?"

Hitsugaya - *stare*

Rangiku - *stares away*

Hitsugaya - "Nothing...,let's go don't let your guard down"

If someone could sense a strength increase or a spiritual power upgrade it would be a lieutenants captain.

xXAshisogiJizoXx
October 11, 2008, 02:38 PM
I agree w/ josear on espada rankings, i thought it was blatantly obvious how baragans interaction with halibel and stark all but revealed the rankings;
Stark=1, baragan=2, and halibel=3,
....but i guess people will perceive things however they wish to perceive them. (lol, i said i wasnt gonna talk about ranks again, and yet here i am...sigh)

however, i also agree with ono that DBZ is a classic manga, that is bashed on a lil way too much in my opinion
HOWEVER, jus b/c gramps isnt actually fighting, doesn;t mean he isn't directly involved with whats going on in the fight, unlike stark who has done absolutly nuthin, which is why i like baragan, and not stark, but the idea remains the same, often the strongest people aren;t directly involved. So while baragan isnt fighting, where as stark is, baragan has had much more influence on what is happening

Rangiku bankai, i could see it, and wouldnt mind too much, however, i dont like everyone having a bankai, maybe if she, along w/ renji and ikakku can fill the missing cpt spots then maybe (however, none of them seem qualified for the spot, whether its pride, drinking/laziness, or being weak as hell...renji) i will admit that the interaction between hitsu and matsu prolly meant sumthin more, however, i initially thought that he was somehow referring to the battle, and how Gin was on the opposing side...idk, wutever

Devil-buster
October 11, 2008, 03:01 PM
This is my prediction!

Soi Fon and Omaeda will beat their fraccions easy. This will set a strength level for Omaeda, and will show Soi Fon to be pretty bad ass.

Yama's vice and Omaeda will go help Rangiku, and Soi Fon will go to the aid of Histugaya.

Then we'll have 2 2v1 Espada fights, and 3 1v1 Vice fights.

I dont know....Omeada's shikai was broken pretty easily by ichigo, with bare hands.....so I really dont know how strong he can be......also even is soifon and omeada beat their fraccion....I dont think barragan will just let them prance away to fight other fights.....
and I think kubo has other plans for yama's vice.....he was seen no where in the last chapter.....
Soifon is already pretty badass.....she gave yoruichi a run for the money.....

Hockeychaoz
October 11, 2008, 03:14 PM
Rangiku Matsumoto has Bankai. That I can gaurantee.

Hitsugaya knows it all too well

Hitsugaya - "I hope there is no hesitation in your heart"

Rangiku - "What are you talking about?"

Hitsugaya - *stare*

Rangiku - *stares away*

Hitsugaya - "Nothing...,let's go don't let your guard down"

If someone could sense a strength increase or a spiritual power upgrade it would be a lieutenants captain.

He meant that if all their plans worked out today, Gin was going to die along with Aizen. Gin + Rangiku = Bff

Hollow Kurono
October 11, 2008, 03:16 PM
Rangiku Matsumoto has Bankai. That I can gaurantee.

Hitsugaya knows it all too well

Hitsugaya - "I hope there is no hesitation in your heart"

Rangiku - "What are you talking about?"

Hitsugaya - *stare*

Rangiku - *stares away*

Hitsugaya - "Nothing...,let's go don't let your guard down"

If someone could sense a strength increase or a spiritual power upgrade it would be a lieutenants captain.


Hmm.That would be so cool if it happened,realy I would be schoked.And I would jump of my chair while reading it :) lets hope it happens.But it was because of Gin..


well my dear, there is a point, and that is:

Barragan: I hope thats ok? (Translation: i expect that my plan is worthy of being followed since you are the strongest here)

Note: he didnt ask that to halibel, he just told her to shut her trap and respect the ranks, while with stark is a matter of, can i get your permission.

even lilinette told Stark, "are you gonna take that?!", poor lilinette readers of this manga doesnt notice her, there is a clear point, none of the halibel fraccion told halibel, "dont let him talk you like that, We do as we wish Halibel-sama" or something like that, if someone was capable of noticing, tell me, coz i dont see those damn words.


Yo, i think it was done by kubo tite in order to make stark appear, the way he doesnt care about if aizen sends a weak or a strong espada, but only reason i can see is that he moved with a fast pace, that it was kinda teleport. but we'll know sooner or later, but your point is very weak to be considered as a good reason to low the rank of stark


Yes,on the Stark theory,yes I agree its a weak point,I even said it myself,in that post.And aint sure myself,Im just bringing in a possibility,the same as Matsumoto havn a bankai.

And when you said about Baragan.When he said to shut up to halibel and res..blah,blah.And he then asked Stark is that a problem with you?And if you meant that,I dont think Baragan asked him,he just said you better not have a problem with that.So Baragan didnt ask Stark,if thats what you meant.

I fucking hate this old fart.

En Yang Ji
October 11, 2008, 03:17 PM
Rangiku Matsumoto has Bankai. That I can gaurantee.

Hitsugaya knows it all too well

Hitsugaya - "I hope there is no hesitation in your heart"

Rangiku - "What are you talking about?"

Hitsugaya - *stare*

Rangiku - *stares away*

Hitsugaya - "Nothing...,let's go don't let your guard down"

If someone could sense a strength increase or a spiritual power upgrade it would be a lieutenants captain.


I think Hitsugaya was referring to Gin when he made that comment.

@Josear: You got a point. I don't think Halibel's fraccions are the type, that would keep quiet if Barragan said that to Halibel, and she was the stronger Espada.

Josear XIII
October 11, 2008, 03:36 PM
DBZ: (before any mod tries to delete this please note that he was bashing DBZ) DBZ is heck of a lot more epic then Bleach. Kubo(as do most mangakas) only wishes his Manga was as big as DBZ. Heck his Manga was obviously influenced by DBZ, your forumula is really all that needs to be looked at to prove this. And finally don't bring in this Dragonball Anime crap into my manga.

People put way to much stock in that one line. Nanao said things that are alike. But Shunsui isn't the strongest captain, Lilinette just doesn't like the way that Stark is always so lazy because he's strong and she knows it but he never takes the initiative which annoys her. THis does not mean I think he's stronger then Barragan but that he is strong.

The comparison was wacked. Barragan= a Lead Guitarist? That makes no sense I could just as easily make a comparison between Tree's and the Arrancars. If your going to compare things use things in Manga's or at least things that are a lot alike. Besides Barragan would probablly have to be the best Guitarist for him to be the lead which is about the only way this weird comparison works out.

And your only good example/comparison the one about Kenshin proves my point doesn't it? Barragan is the only one who isn't fighting.

Stark's not trying isn't equal to Shunsui's not trying because...? And honestly if their was as big a difference as you'd like to believe then Ukitake would help Shunsui out. But he didn't.

As for your post above mine...WHAT. You pretty much said if Halibel doesn't care enough to challenge Barragan then that means that she's shit but if the same happens to Stark he must be Number one. Double Standards.

hey hey hey!! dont get me wrong, i acknowledge the greatness of Dragon ball, and i know all the mangakas want to get a place side to side with it, it just happen that i like DB more Than DBZ, the idea of making Goku into an alien was real bad (thats my opinion) but we are not getting into this matter. anyways, i think mangakas fell DB sagas like a real classic to 'em but they're not necessarily jump to copy the whole thing, influence... maybe, copying him a lil bit... why not, but new era mangas are based in letting all the characters have a little growth together, not just the main. Thats my point in bashing DBZ, got it, coz there are people who only likes that, i respect their opinions, but you have read my post, i just like to argue a lil bit and in the meantime try to make some people way of thinking.

For the ranks thing, i dont know if i expressed myself really bad, but by reading the manga i felt more like he shut her up with his comment, is something i cannot explain, so lets leave it that way is more to the turn of how i feel it and how you do, kay?


Note: i didnt really understood your post, the one i quoted first so maybe there is a confusion by my side

as for the supposedly only "GOOD" example/comparison i made, it has nothing to do with Barragan, since hiko soujuro in the end did enter the fight coz it was needed, he fought only when he saw from, no one knows where, that the giant was going to crush yahiko, so how the hell is this supposed to help you in your point, my point with the rurouni kenshin is simple:

"THAT YOU ARE THE STRONGEST DOESN'T MEAN THAT YOU HAVE TO BE THE LEADER OF THE GANG"

dont know if what you understood was that i was pointing that the strongest does no need to fight first or i dont know what more.If you understood it a way that helps your point, hope it serves you in other threads.

and the comparison with the guitarist... i just wanted to make a word game, since in the time writing that, guitar hero came to my mind. :notrust


Rangiku Matsumoto has Bankai. That I can gaurantee.

Hitsugaya knows it all too well

Hitsugaya - "I hope there is no hesitation in your heart"

Rangiku - "What are you talking about?"

Hitsugaya - *stare*

Rangiku - *stares away*

Hitsugaya - "Nothing...,let's go don't let your guard down"

If someone could sense a strength increase or a spiritual power upgrade it would be a lieutenants captain.

i dont know dude, maybe it is the way you said it, but the time i read that, i think hitsu is referring to the fact that Gin Ichimaru is present.


So Baragan didnt ask Stark,if thats what you meant.
I fucking hate this old fart.

True, i read again the chapter and Barragan was kinda telling everyone that.


I think Hitsugaya was referring to Gin when he made that comment.

@Josear: You got a point. I don't think Halibel's fraccions are the type, that would keep quiet if Barragan said that to Halibel, and she was the stronger Espada.

thank you for notice, ^^ that was something i wanted people to note

Thanks to the ones that take time to read this.

Onomatopoeia
October 11, 2008, 04:21 PM
hey hey hey!! dont get me wrong, i acknowledge the greatness of Dragon ball, and i know all the mangakas want to get a place side to side with it, it just happen that i like DB more Than DBZ, the idea of making Goku into an alien was real bad (thats my opinion) but we are not getting into this matter. anyways, i think mangakas fell DB sagas like a real classic to 'em but they're not necessarily jump to copy the whole thing, influence... maybe, copying him a lil bit... why not, but new era mangas are based in letting all the characters have a little growth together, not just the main. Thats my point in bashing DBZ, got it, coz there are people who only likes that, i respect their opinions, but you have read my post, i just like to argue a lil bit and in the meantime try to make some people way of thinking.

For the ranks thing, i dont know if i expressed myself really bad, but by reading the manga i felt more like he shut her up with his comment, is something i cannot explain, so lets leave it that way is more to the turn of how i feel it and how you do, kay?


Note: i didnt really understood your post, the one i quoted first so maybe there is a confusion by my side

as for the supposedly only "GOOD" example/comparison i made, it has nothing to do with Barragan, since hiko soujuro in the end did enter the fight coz it was needed, he fought only when he saw from, no one knows where, that the giant was going to crush yahiko, so how the hell is this supposed to help you in your point, my point with the rurouni kenshin is simple:

"THAT YOU ARE THE STRONGEST DOESN'T MEAN THAT YOU HAVE TO BE THE LEADER OF THE GANG"

dont know if what you understood was that i was pointing that the strongest does no need to fight first or i dont know what more.If you understood it a way that helps your point, hope it serves you in other threads.

and the comparison with the guitarist... i just wanted to make a word game, since in the time writing that, guitar hero came to my mind. :notrust


I'll just reply to the part since it's the part thats replying to me.

Read the DB Manga before giving an opinion. Seriously the Anime and the Manga do not compare. I wish all people would do that before even considering speaking badly of DB.

Halibel more or less doesn't care, she barely ever talks in the first place so shutting her up isn't impressive to begin with. I don't think she even follows a lot of discussions. She's more of a thinking quite type.

Yama is the leader of SS... he's the strongest one their. And yes I didn't understand your example, I thought you meant that people who didn't fight are the strongest.

gold349
October 11, 2008, 04:47 PM
nothing major, kubo is making hella mistakes with Braggons fraccion, though the first one who knows ....the number of fraccion he came with changed. Anyway the fraccion who is about to fight Oemeda looked different to me....he is missing some tusks/tooth on his head gear...like I said nothing major
www.onemanga.com/Bleach/328/15
www.onemanga.com/Bleach/329/12, maybe a hint as to what they may release to, first thing that I imagine when looking at them is the mythical saber tooth tiger, who knows.

Seriph2
October 11, 2008, 05:13 PM
I think people are looking TOO much into who they "want" number 1 espada to be and not enough at the history and trends of bleach matchups. Sometimes the biggest deception is when things ARE exactly as they appear to be, we are so used to often times over analyzing things that we dont see the obvious in plain sight. As perfectly matched up as espada vs captains have been so far mad scientist mayuri vs mad scientist espada just an example. Same as kenpachi's matchup both violent and battle hungry. Can we say old man barragan vs old man numero uno captain?

I understand like I said why people WANT stark to be number one personally to be honest so do I but its just not adding up like I said with the way EVERY espada vs captain matchup has played out, I mean even now ONCE AGAIN we have lazy laid back stark vs who else but lazy laid back shunsui. I would however be pleasantly surprised if kubo decided to throw us for a loop and the matchups were maybe characteristically "perfect" but power wise maybe were a mismatch which would lead to some actual mid battle scrambling and sense of urgency? But imo thats a long shot.

mr.danly
October 11, 2008, 05:26 PM
I dont know....Omeada's shikai was broken pretty easily by ichigo, with bare hands.....so I really dont know how strong he can be......also even is soifon and omeada beat their fraccion....I dont think barragan will just let them prance away to fight other fights.....
and I think kubo has other plans for yama's vice.....he was seen no where in the last chapter.....
Soifon is already pretty badass.....she gave yoruichi a run for the money.....

unfortunately, Omaeda was pwned during the SS arc, BEFORE Ichigo got his huge power downgrade. Ichigo right now is sadly, pathetic. Seeing as everyone can now match his "look-at-me-I-can-block-12million-little-swords-instantly" speed, his bankai is useless; he gets 0 power increase from it. Also, I do believe that people are underestimating Hitsugaya severely. He may have been shown to struggle at times, but he's like a Rukia that can fly on steroids. Rukia with her SHIKAI defeated an espada. People that say that Hitsugaya's shikai was ineffective against the number 10, remember this: Kubo, while he may be a great writer, whom I love, has HUGE inconsistencies when it comes to the power of characters. *cough* Ichigo *cough*. Aizen has also shown to be ridiculously overpowered, while not matching up to the description of his power; he stated himself that he has the reiatsu of 2 captains, yet all he had to do was LOOK at grimmjow and he collapsed. There's no way in hell that Yama, who fought with Ukitake and Shunsui and was unscathed, could LOOK at one of the espada and have them collapse. Undoubtedly, Yama is as powerful as 2 captains, yet he can't do something that another man who's as powerful as 2 captains can do. The list goes on and on. When it comes to Kubo, you can never look at past fights to compare characters' powers. Particularly Hitsugaya; I think that it's a valid point that he has probably become much more powerful; he is extremely young, the youngest captain ever, a genius, and he trained his ass off for the past couple of months, which I doubt he was able to do when he had his regular captain duties in SS; he's always doing shitloads of paperwork and taking care of his division. I doubt he had much time to train, therefore, after a few months of almost nothing but training, I'm sure his power has increased greatly. I don't think that he'll be able to beat Halibel, though; if every one of the captains is able to defeat their opponents, what the hell is Aizen going to do? He loses. Period. And the manga ends. Not happening. I do believe that Aizen has at least a few VL's, though; Nnoitra was supposed to be contacting the VL's, meaning that there's several of them that Aizen knew about.

hyn_pride93
October 11, 2008, 06:22 PM
The Vizards are gonna get involved,the whole reason is to kill Aizen to the vizards,revenge people.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.12/19/

see they are going somewhere and I dont think they are going for a trip,maybe they are going to Urahara and then go pay the debts to Aizen.Or they are just gonna go straight to Aizen :) but Vizards wont sit this out,thats for sure.


Well I dont want to start any super arguments,but this is just me and it could be a possibility that Ishin is stronger then Genryu,if Ichigo is this strong,and hes been a shinigami for how long?And Ishin is a shinigami way longer,so I think hes stronger then Ichigo.But thats just my opinion,my opinion,dont flame for that.

Oh of course. Yes the vizards are going to get involved for sure. :tem There was never a doubt in my mind that they weren't. Just that they weren't ever going to join sides with Aizen, unless Urahara joins up with him. If that were to happen then they'll only do it for Urahara and betray Aizen in the end.

Oblivion
October 11, 2008, 07:02 PM
i think this time around it will be the vizards to do something totally unexpected, which will eben dumbfound aizen.

maybe some way aizen will win but his plans will be halted by the vizards and in turn used by them for their good. meaning they wont be on neithers side, but roll on to do something for themselves, which will go against SS but also against aizen, infact turning his work into theirs.

ryanzokuken
October 11, 2008, 07:54 PM
Hitsugaya sucks as of yet. it's true. just accept it. unless he shows radical improvement in this battle and redeems himself. from everything he has shown us so far, he barely even has any buisness being a captain.

sorry, Hitsu fans, but it's true.


but i will apologize for previous doubtings of Rangiku. i still don't like her a whole lot, and i still think her shikai is LAME as hell and i don't really understand how the ash/smoke hurts people (gets in their lungs? like cigarette damage, but super accelerated?), but the more they show of her, she really is pretty tough, and her shikai does seem to be useful. and now she's showing some real admirable courage, volunteering to take on the three fraccion herself.

whether she can actually handle the task, however, we will see.

RogueNin
October 11, 2008, 08:03 PM
Great chapter. My question is this?

Excluding the fox, VC, fraccions, and the sick captain(Ukitake) we have

Good side: 3 captains, Yama, Urahara, Yoruichi, 4? Vaizard captains, 3? vaizard VC., Ichigo's dad?

Bad side: Top 3 espada, Aizen, Gin, Tousen.

Usually the bad guys overwhelm the good ones so that the manga would be interesting enough. So WTF happens here? Tousen we have seen is not THAT strong compared to the rest. Also every single captain in HM has won over the espadas. Even Ichigo is going against number 4 now, and he is going to win (somehow).So UNLESS Aizen hides a couple of more aces, the only logical explanation I can think of is:

Espadas overwhelm captains(explains Aizen's coolness when trapped) -> Vizards arrive to save the day(revenge for Aizen, he did not account for them) -> Aizen and Gin beat Vizards? -> Who beats Aizen???? I don't know, something's missing. The sure thing is that the captains will not beat the espadas, otherwise the balance will by far lean on the good side.

Tinori
October 11, 2008, 08:07 PM
This manga is soo boring and predictable. Hell the chapters barely show any story, just pictures and some action scenes. You go through each chapter in minutes..

Its fight after fight after fight. Whats even worst is so far the "good" side have never lost anyone in battle. I dont remember anyone died, all i see is espada dies one after another.

Hockeychaoz
October 11, 2008, 10:37 PM
This manga is soo boring and predictable. Hell the chapters barely show any story, just pictures and some action scenes. You go through each chapter in minutes..

Its fight after fight after fight. Whats even worst is so far the "good" side have never lost anyone in battle. I dont remember anyone died, all i see is espada dies one after another.

Lol, and the good guys get wounds so much worse than anyone else that's died so far.

Ichigo was cut in half, the only thing holding him together was his spine, and yet he lives.

Chad had his arm torn into 4 pieces.

Ishida and Renji had legs/arms/organs crushed.

Tinori
October 11, 2008, 10:52 PM
Lol, and the good guys get wounds so much worse than anyone else that's died so far.

Ichigo was cut in half, the only thing holding him together was his spine, and yet he lives.

Chad had his arm torn into 4 pieces.

Ishida and Renji had legs/arms/organs crushed.

But they all live!!

this is be the same in this up and coming fight. People are injured but they manage to live. While on the other side the Hollows will die.

Onomatopoeia
October 11, 2008, 11:04 PM
Hitsugaya sucks as of yet. it's true. just accept it. unless he shows radical improvement in this battle and redeems himself. from everything he has shown us so far, he barely even has any buisness being a captain.

sorry, Hitsu fans, but it's true.


but i will apologize for previous doubtings of Rangiku. i still don't like her a whole lot, and i still think her shikai is LAME as hell and i don't really understand how the ash/smoke hurts people (gets in their lungs? like cigarette damage, but super accelerated?), but the more they show of her, she really is pretty tough, and her shikai does seem to be useful. and now she's showing some real admirable courage, volunteering to take on the three fraccion herself.

whether she can actually handle the task, however, we will see.

All right, great back up why Hitsugaya sucks. Give me some evidence, and why it's true, and then prove to me your opinion is some sort of law.

Cause you now I could just as easily say

Ichigo is Aizen in disguise and vice versa. Sorry Aizen/Ichigo Fans but it's true.

As for Rangiku and her Shikai, lol is that really so annoying for you? Their are a lot of much much much worse things in Bleach and manga's all together that aren't explained(see Foxman)

Though I do have a few idea's on how it works, Rangiku's sword is a literal embodiment of her sword and allows her to swing it around in all sorts of ways like a wip. Because the sword is just ashed up it still has the same cutting properties. But the Ash has to stay together, which is different from Byakuya's SHikai.

Or her Shikai could be exactly like Senbonzakura(?) and it uses Reitsu to cut which is an explanation that works out a lot in Bleach(Rukia's Shikai,Kenpachi etc.) in that if the person in question has more reitsu then Rangiku then it won't cut? Or it could be based on impact in that when it swipes down it solidifies as ash and hits the person using mass.

Anyways Rangiku's Shikai is probablly among the deadliest out their if only CIS/PIS didn't stop her from using the obvious kills(AKA Ash to Eye's=Blindness or Ash to Throat=Choking etc.)

Of course to be fair we have a full total of like 3 panels with her Shikai out, you really didn't expect some sort of giant explanation did you?

Edit: After reading through 210 again I'd say it is just her sword focused into Ash, the Ash before slashing becomes momentarily as sharp as her original sword by concentrating the ash into the shape of the original sword(but the Sword is still made of individual peices of ash being controled so it can't be blocked, nor is it heavy at all) and thus use the edge that the ash makes to cut. So it can be created into a sword and makes normal slashes that can be moved in many ways, like a whip( but doesn't act like Byakuya's which can attack from multiple directions).

ryanzokuken
October 12, 2008, 12:05 AM
All right, great back up why Hitsugaya sucks. Give me some evidence, and why it's true, and then prove to me your opinion is some sort of law.

Cause you now I could just as easily say

Ichigo is Aizen in disguise and vice versa. Sorry Aizen/Ichigo Fans but it's true.

As for Rangiku and her Shikai, lol is that really so annoying for you? Their are a lot of much much much worse things in Bleach and manga's all together that aren't explained(see Foxman)

Though I do have a few idea's on how it works, Rangiku's sword is a literal embodiment of her sword and allows her to swing it around in all sorts of ways like a wip. Because the sword is just ashed up it still has the same cutting properties. But the Ash has to stay together, which is different from Byakuya's SHikai.

Or her Shikai could be exactly like Senbonzakura(?) and it uses Reitsu to cut which is an explanation that works out a lot in Bleach(Rukia's Shikai,Kenpachi etc.) in that if the person in question has more reitsu then Rangiku then it won't cut? Or it could be based on impact in that when it swipes down it solidifies as ash and hits the person using mass.

Anyways Rangiku's Shikai is probablly among the deadliest out their if only CIS/PIS didn't stop her from using the obvious kills(AKA Ash to Eye's=Blindness or Ash to Throat=Choking etc.)

Of course to be fair we have a full total of like 3 panels with her Shikai out, you really didn't expect some sort of giant explanation did you?

Edit: After reading through 210 again I'd say it is just her sword focused into Ash, the Ash before slashing becomes momentarily as sharp as her original sword by concentrating the ash into the shape of the original sword(but the Sword is still made of individual peices of ash being controled so it can't be blocked, nor is it heavy at all) and thus use the edge that the ash makes to cut. So it can be created into a sword and makes normal slashes that can be moved in many ways, like a whip( but doesn't act like Byakuya's which can attack from multiple directions).

i've been through it all before. with you. and you can't argue with what has happened, no matter how much you like Hitsugaya.

he's won one fight in all of his fights. and in all of them, including the one that he won, he was anything but impressive.

1) a draw with Gin.

now i know you'll argue "Hitsugaya had the upper hand, you can't prove Gin was holding back" etc. well, Hitsugaya at no point had an upper hand. and yes, Gin was holding back.
a. Hitsugaya was raging out the whole time, fighting to kill. he was also the first to resort to releasing his zan.
b. Gin was smiling and playing around the whole time, basically only doing enough to defend himself. he even asked later in the fight "you're really serious, aren't you?" which shows that he was surprised Hitsugaya was fighting so seriously, and implies that Gin was not.
c. if that isn't enough, Gin's role was to cast suspiscion on himself to divert attention and allow Aizen to go about his work on the plan. also, to try to get Hitsu and Momo against each other. he was not supposed to kill either of them. had he killed Hitsugaya, it would have ruined the whole plan. killing another captain right out in the open, Gin would have been detained. for the sake of Aizen's entire plan, he couldn't fight seriously.
d. all Hitsugaya did was freeze Gin's arm, and we all know how useful ice is in bleach. being frozen means nothing, even when it's your entire body in a solid block of ice.
c. the only reason Gin stopped fighting and left was because Rangiku showed up.

Hitsu did not win. it was a draw, due to interference.


2) Aizen. i know, this can't really be held against him. just throwing it in there for the fight count.

3) Shawlong. a fraccion (strong, yes, but that doesn't excuse it) kicked a captains ass. yes, i know he had his limiter on, but limited or not, a captain with bankai should be able to defeat a fraccion. or at least not get his ass kicked.

limited with bankai, or unlimited with shikai. a captain should win against a fraccion under these conditions.

to need the limiter lifted AND bankai is a little lame.


4) Yammy. i know, they didn't fight for long, and i really shouldn't even count it, but Yammy brushed off Hitsugaya's shikai attacks and laughed at him. Yammy has been owned by like everyone BUT Hitsugaya.

5) Luppi. he wrecked Hitsu with a single attack. then, after having all damn day to prepare his ice pillar attack, even talking arrogantly about how Luppi left him alone for too long and needs to learn to follow up and how he had so long to set up the attack, he still failed to kill him. Luppi wasn't even that badly hurt. and yea yea, the negacion saved him, but...he had been frozen. when was he going to die? in like 12 hours when his heart had slowed to a stop from being frozen for so long?


and about Rangiku, i know it's a useful shikai and it's good, i conceded to that. i was just saying it's lame, no matter what the explanation of how it hurts people. :p i complemented her and admitted being wrong about having doubted her before.

Oni Shinigami
October 12, 2008, 12:34 AM
I think Hitsugaya was referring to Gin when he made that comment.

I dunno.

Ichimaru Gin has a secret past with Rangiku, that's for sure.

It's just so strange for Rangiku to request fighting 3 fraccion when Kira,Shuuhei, and Yumichika fought so feircly against 1v1 and even Soifon is jumping on 1.

Where did all this confidence come from?

And I'm sure if she was concerned with Gin she would definitely WANT a power up so she herself could personally deal with him. And with the power of Shikai, that is definitely not happening.

And we did see Matsumoto and Yumichika training for Bankai before Luppi and Grimmjow attacked

I do foresee Hatsugaya getting rocked by Halibel and Soi Fon having to fight her next.

Onomatopoeia
October 12, 2008, 01:02 AM
i've been through it all before. with you. and you can't argue with what has happened, no matter how much you like Hitsugaya.

he's won one fight in all of his fights. and in all of them, including the one that he won, he was anything but impressive.

1) a draw with Gin.

now i know you'll argue "Hitsugaya had the upper hand, you can't prove Gin was holding back" etc. well, Hitsugaya at no point had an upper hand. and yes, Gin was holding back.
a. Hitsugaya was raging out the whole time, fighting to kill. he was also the first to resort to releasing his zan.
b. Gin was smiling and playing around the whole time, basically only doing enough to defend himself. he even asked later in the fight "you're really serious, aren't you?" which shows that he was surprised Hitsugaya was fighting so seriously, and implies that Gin was not.
c. if that isn't enough, Gin's role was to cast suspiscion on himself to divert attention and allow Aizen to go about his work on the plan. also, to try to get Hitsu and Momo against each other. he was not supposed to kill either of them. had he killed Hitsugaya, it would have ruined the whole plan. killing another captain right out in the open, Gin would have been detained. for the sake of Aizen's entire plan, he couldn't fight seriously.
d. all Hitsugaya did was freeze Gin's arm, and we all know how useful ice is in bleach. being frozen means nothing, even when it's your entire body in a solid block of ice.
c. the only reason Gin stopped fighting and left was because Rangiku showed up.

Hitsu did not win. it was a draw, due to interference.


2) Aizen. i know, this can't really be held against him. just throwing it in there for the fight count.

3) Shawlong. a fraccion (strong, yes, but that doesn't excuse it) kicked a captains ass. yes, i know he had his limiter on, but limited or not, a captain with bankai should be able to defeat a fraccion. or at least not get his ass kicked.

limited with bankai, or unlimited with shikai. a captain should win against a fraccion under these conditions.

to need the limiter lifted AND bankai is a little lame.


4) Yammy. i know, they didn't fight for long, and i really shouldn't even count it, but Yammy brushed off Hitsugaya's shikai attacks and laughed at him. Yammy has been owned by like everyone BUT Hitsugaya.

5) Luppi. he wrecked Hitsu with a single attack. then, after having all damn day to prepare his ice pillar attack, even talking arrogantly about how Luppi left him alone for too long and needs to learn to follow up and how he had so long to set up the attack, he still failed to kill him. Luppi wasn't even that badly hurt. and yea yea, the negacion saved him, but...he had been frozen. when was he going to die? in like 12 hours when his heart had slowed to a stop from being frozen for so long?


1. Works both ways, Gin was screwed at that point in time. His eye's were even open so that meant he was serious. He had an ace up his sleeve that Hitsugaya couldn't beat namely Hinamori, Gin had someone helping(indirectly) while Hitusgaya had someone helping him. If Hinamori hadn't been their then he wouldn't have needed Matsumoto, it evens out. Hitsugaya was in the better position. And Gin didn't show any move that would've gotten him out of that situation(if Hinamori wasn't their).

2. Aizen

3. Kommamaru did the same exact thing, except not as good. I don't see how this can be held against him. And we all know how Strong/Incosistent Shawlong was in the first place.

4. Shikai's suck unless you've got one thats haxxed, it's really not impressive that Yammi broke out of it, especially considering Hitsugaya wasn't exclusively attacking him . And Yammi owned everyone except Yoruichi and Urahara. Heck simple powerscaling shows it, Ichigo had trouble with a Privaron Espada like Dordonii while he was in Bankai who's most certainly weaker then Yammi. Which means Ichigo would have only just barely beat Yammi(if at all) way back when. Not only that but Yammi didn't even release! Besides it wasn't even really a fight...

5. Hitsugaya would have simply broken the ice. End game. Luppi gets broken into a million pieces. The negaccion did save him he would have been dead in like 10 more seconds. Our ice doesn't work like Bleach Ice if it did then Hitsugaya would be horrifyingly haxxed with that "I can control all the water in the atmosphere" BS.

If we count real fights then his ratio is W:3 L:1 if we count like a second long fight that included no real fighting and no actuall ending then it's W:3 L:2

Eddy01741
October 12, 2008, 07:34 AM
1. Works both ways, Gin was screwed at that point in time. His eye's were even open so that meant he was serious. He had an ace up his sleeve that Hitsugaya couldn't beat namely Hinamori, Gin had someone helping(indirectly) while Hitusgaya had someone helping him. If Hinamori hadn't been their then he wouldn't have needed Matsumoto, it evens out. Hitsugaya was in the better position. And Gin didn't show any move that would've gotten him out of that situation(if Hinamori wasn't their).

2. Aizen

3. Kommamaru did the same exact thing, except not as good. I don't see how this can be held against him. And we all know how Strong/Incosistent Shawlong was in the first place.

4. Shikai's suck unless you've got one thats haxxed, it's really not impressive that Yammi broke out of it, especially considering Hitsugaya wasn't exclusively attacking him . And Yammi owned everyone except Yoruichi and Urahara. Heck simple powerscaling shows it, Ichigo had trouble with a Privaron Espada like Dordonii while he was in Bankai who's most certainly weaker then Yammi. Which means Ichigo would have only just barely beat Yammi(if at all) way back when. Not only that but Yammi didn't even release! Besides it wasn't even really a fight...

5. Hitsugaya would have simply broken the ice. End game. Luppi gets broken into a million pieces. The negaccion did save him he would have been dead in like 10 more seconds. Our ice doesn't work like Bleach Ice if it did then Hitsugaya would be horrifyingly haxxed with that "I can control all the water in the atmosphere" BS.

If we count real fights then his ratio is W:3 L:1 if we count like a second long fight that included no real fighting and no actuall ending then it's W:3 L:2
1. Eyes open means nothing, Hitsugaya thought that he had Gin trapped by icing his arm, but then Gin had an ace up his sleeve, his SHIKAI, not momo, Gin just played HItsugaya into almost forcing Hinamori to be killed. You do notice that Gin didn't use his shikai until that point, right?

2. No Argument, we pretty much know that Aizen pwned Ichigo, Renji, and Komamura as well, so Hitsugaya can't be expected to win either.

3. Did Komamura really have to use Bankai? We will never know. He was just doing it to prove to Po that he isn't the biggest guy on the block, plus, he absolutely wrecked Po, like, so much that it's not even funny.

4. I do agree that it wasn't much of a fight, but shikai's don't suck unless you count the following "haxxed":
Byakuya
Soifon
Rangiku
Yama-ji
Gin
Aizen
Kira
Yumichika

5. So far Hitsugaya has only shown that he can break weaker opponents into a million pieces.

Yans86
October 12, 2008, 07:42 AM
I really can't understand how u underestimate Gin!
I really can't understand how u overestimate Hitsu!!!!!!a lot of potential,ok but right now is normal captain level......
About Luppi,ok he was 6th espada for a period,but GJ killed him in one blow like a small fries.......do u want to talk about that?!
Also about the fight Old Yama VS Kyouraku and Ukitake.................come on!u can't judge these three guys power just for that!Yama was the stronger but now is old and I think that Kyouraku can go beyond his level!second point,Kyouraku and Ukitake where holding back,they destroyed soukyoku,they saved Chad,everything they did was because they were suspicious about something(The had a Shirouichin instrument...who gave them that???).........they r good person and they hadn't reason to fight Yama to kill.Yama is hot and cold at the same time,first the rules,life is not important,he always fight to kill and destroy!The two of them were only on a defensive line,becasue even if u are the stronger shinigami,if u fight against the two stronger captain after u, u cannot go away unscratched....
About Tousen,not really strong reiatsu,but his bankai is really difficult to stand!only a person like Kenpachi could stand.....but he his a beast!!!!remember that all the Vizards were captain level or VC and were pwned by him......

Cyanilurus
October 12, 2008, 07:59 AM
Wow, this "I hate Hitsugaya, he sucks" vs the "Hitsugaya is cool" debate has gotten quite long, it took more than half an hour to read it all, and neither side seems to convert the other to their own taste? :p

Do you think we will switch to another place coming next chapter, or will we get now the main battles?

Will any of the Espadas or their fraccions be around after Aizen goes down?

Hehe, imagine shinigami and arrancar kiddos playing with each other... Like, Nell and Yachiru, who drools more contest... :p

gold349
October 12, 2008, 08:33 AM
Great chapter. My question is this?

Excluding the fox, VC, fraccions, and the sick captain(Ukitake) we have

Good side: 3 captains, Yama, Urahara, Yoruichi, 4? Vaizard captains, 3? vaizard VC., Ichigo's dad?

Bad side: Top 3 espada, Aizen, Gin, Tousen.

Usually the bad guys overwhelm the good ones so that the manga would be interesting enough. So WTF happens here? Tousen we have seen is not THAT strong compared to the rest. Also every single captain in HM has won over the espadas. Even Ichigo is going against number 4 now, and he is going to win (somehow).So UNLESS Aizen hides a couple of more aces, the only logical explanation I can think of is:

Espadas overwhelm captains(explains Aizen's coolness when trapped) -> Vizards arrive to save the day(revenge for Aizen, he did not account for them) -> Aizen and Gin beat Vizards? -> Who beats Aizen???? I don't know, something's missing. The sure thing is that the captains will not beat the espadas, otherwise the balance will by far lean on the good side.

aizen is Ichigo kill, though before all that, even if Aizen beats vaizard there are still players (you mention them above in your post but didn't account for them at the bottom) Urahara, Yourichi Isshin and Ishida's dad.:)

Eye of the tiger
October 12, 2008, 09:52 AM
aizen is Ichigo kill, though before all that, even if Aizen beats vaizard there are still players (you mention them above in your post but didn't account for them at the bottom) Urahara, Yourichi Isshin and Ishida's dad.:)

I agree.. but maybe the espadas just need to provide time to Aizen and keep the SS distracted/tired out.. Aizen definitely has something up his sleeve and he's just biding time.. plus, he probably has a bunch of Vasto lordes doing something somewhere, or waiting to jump in..

xXAshisogiJizoXx
October 12, 2008, 12:01 PM
Hmmm, no matter how inconsistent kubo may be, you cant deny that hitsu was being severely beaten by shawlong, b/c i dont think most people remember the fact that shaw did not need to release at all, he had not a scratch on him when he released. think about that, a fraccion unreleased, able to wipe the floor with a captain in bankai at 20%. lets say hypothetically that unreleased, shawlong was equal to at least 30% of hitsu's strength (thas being very generous to hitsu), and then his resureccion makes him at least twice as strong, which would make shawlong at least = to 60% of hitsu's strength, which is embarrassing for hitsu. and yes, i know this is all hypothetical with little proof to support thits, but c'mon, hitsu is an avg. captain through and through. However, it is when you consider his age, that he is "strong", however in comparison to his pears (disregarding age), he is nothing special.

ANYWAYS, i must say, im luvin bleach again, there is not a single fight in that last panel that im not interested in. in order of least to most interesting...
- soifon vs fraccion 1: wanna actually see a canon display of her shikai doing its two hit kill thing, fillers dont count (and i want the fight to be short short short)
- halibel vs. hitsu: jus wanna see if the theories on hitsu's bankai being a countdown is true (which im rooting for, despite my opinion on hitsu's strength), also wanna see how kubo handles the fight in general, seeing the big division amongst readers about hitsu's strength :P
- Omaeda vs fat fraccion: yes, i wanna see this more then the first two, thas b/c i have absolutely no idea what will happen. will he be laughably pathetic, will his opponent be weak enough, will he gain resolve to live up to his family title (hes a sort of noble i beleive) and prove hes not completely incompetent, is he stronger then we thought, will he die, will someone save him, or what of his opponent, is he weak or strong, he looks like a dense character, but maybe hes intelligent despite his brutish looks (im basing this off of the tusks he had which have apparently dissappeared; i think his release will be elephant like, and elephants are both strong and intelligent so...yeah)
- Matsumoto vs pussycat dolls: ive always liked the character, i wanna get a better explanation to her shikai. she always seemed like a competent physical fighter. i think she may actually be able to fend off the three,... until they release, in which case i dunno. either bankai (which im very unsure as to whether id wanna see that), or help from either saskibe, iba, koma, or ikakku (prolly sas or ikakku)
- Shunsui vs. stark: obviously... awesomeness incarnate. an epic fight, maybe better then any weve seen before,...however, im a little terrified out of my mind. im almost certain that shunsui's abnormal tenseness is foreshadowing to his death, seeing as hes holding nothing back, and he seems to be the type that says little, but knows more about whats going on then anyone else. he knows sumthings up and it frightens him, and thus, frightens me...

Damn you kubo, when i said i wanted a bleach character to die, i was hoping for byakuya...not our beloved shunsui (i still want a character to die, and if it has to be shunsui then so be it, despite the loss of such an awesome character, it will make the manga more serious, and will add suspense to the fights, now that we know the good guy wont always come out on top)

Onomatopoeia
October 12, 2008, 12:10 PM
1. Eyes open means nothing, Hitsugaya thought that he had Gin trapped by icing his arm, but then Gin had an ace up his sleeve, his SHIKAI, not momo, Gin just played HItsugaya into almost forcing Hinamori to be killed. You do notice that Gin didn't use his shikai until that point, right?

2. No Argument, we pretty much know that Aizen pwned Ichigo, Renji, and Komamura as well, so Hitsugaya can't be expected to win either.

3. Did Komamura really have to use Bankai? We will never know. He was just doing it to prove to Po that he isn't the biggest guy on the block, plus, he absolutely wrecked Po, like, so much that it's not even funny.

4. I do agree that it wasn't much of a fight, but shikai's don't suck unless you count the following "haxxed":
Byakuya
Soifon
Rangiku
Yama-ji
Gin
Aizen
Kira
Yumichika

5. So far Hitsugaya has only shown that he can break weaker opponents into a million pieces.

1. Gin gets serious when he opens his eye's. Thats the only time he's not smiling. Heck it's the only time when he ever does something unjokingly. I could say that Gin had a Bankai that would one shot everyone in SS. Do I know that? Do I have proof that he could do that? What I did see was Gin getting serious when he was in a bad position and using someone else to threaten Hitsugaya. His ace up his sleeve was Momo because if she wasn't their then having his Shikai would be useless. An ace is something you can't beat. I should also add that Gin used his Shikai on Hitsugaya who then dodged it. Shinsou then headed toward Hinamori, the fact is if Hitsugaya dodged or blocked(which he did) Hinamori was still pretty fucked. Hitsugaya couldn't win with Hinamori their. His Shikai was also only used when he opened his eyes.

2. Aizen

3. To One-Shot Po he did. And Hitsugaya did it even better against a stronger opponent.

4. Gin=Useless(he didn't even kill a beginning of SS Ichigo), Aizen=Haxx, Kira=Haxx,Yumi=Haxx,Soifon=Haxx, Rangiku=Hypothetical Haxx so far Useless, Byakuya= He pwned Ganju thats not exactly great,Yama= The Commander. Those are all the Shikai's you mentioned.

5. Luppi said he'd lost. I don't understand how this can be misunderstood. He had him in the ice, he breaks the ice and gg Luppi. Can you show me a picture of Luppi breaking the ice? Because if he didn't then Hitsugaya breaks the Ice and it's game over Luppi.

eddy26
October 12, 2008, 12:22 PM
I can picture most of the captains losing their battles against their opponents Halibel beating Hitsugaya but Hitsugaya ends up making her release to beat him. Matsumoto going down no way she has bankai if she did she would be a captain. The only non captains in my opinion that have bankai are Ikkaku and Renji. It would really suck if everyone had bankai. The only way Matsumoto doesn't lose is if Yamamoto sends his VC to help her or Komamura tells Iba to go help her out. Barragan beats Soifon it seems pretty obvious she is going to kill her fraccion. She might get a big head and think she can defeat Barragan. She goes to strike him the first time with her shikai but he grabs her hand and squeezes until her zanpaktou breaks along with her hand. Shunsui and Ukitake defeat Stark and Lilinette but after the fight Shunsui is all beat up and Ukitake gets sick and starts coughing out blood.
The vizards come out and start fighting Halibel and Barragan. They end up killing Barragan and Halibel but before they can attack Aizen he leaves with Tousen and Gin to Soul Society. So the Vizard go towards the shinigami and just when everyone thinks they are going to kiss and make up the Vizards point their swords towards all the captains and VC. The battle begins Lisa goes to attack Shunsui and Shinji and Rose go attack Yamamoto. Hisagi will go fight Kensei. Hachi and Hiyori will fight Kira. Komamura vs. Love. Yamamoto will start losing since he is outnumbered and fighting two captains with hollow powers. The four captains and VC in Hueco Mundo find a way to get back to fake Karakura and rescue the beat up captains and VC from the Vizards. I can already see the matchup Hiyori vs. Yachiru While Soul Society and the Vizards are fighting each other Soul Society is vulnerable. When Aizen, Gin, and Tousen get there Yoruichi, Tessai, Urahara, Nanao, Ryukken, and Ichigo's dad are waiting for him.

Eddy01741
October 12, 2008, 12:23 PM
1. Gin gets serious when he opens his eye's. Thats the only time he's not smiling. Heck it's the only time when he ever does something unjokingly. I could say that Gin had a Bankai that would one shot everyone in SS. Do I know that? Do I have proof that he could do that? What I did see was Gin getting serious when he was in a bad position and using someone else to threaten Hitsugaya. His ace up his sleeve was Momo because if she wasn't their then having his Shikai would be useless. An ace is something you can't beat. I should also add that Gin used his Shikai on Hitsugaya who then dodged it. Shinsou then headed toward Hinamori, the fact is if Hitsugaya dodged or blocked(which he did) Hinamori was still pretty fucked. Hitsugaya couldn't win with Hinamori their. His Shikai was also only used when he opened his eyes.

2. Aizen

3. To One-Shot Po he did. And Hitsugaya did it even better against a stronger opponent.

4. Gin=Useless(he didn't even kill a beginning of SS Ichigo), Aizen=Haxx, Kira=Haxx,Yumi=Haxx,Soifon=Haxx, Rangiku=Hypothetical Haxx so far Useless, Byakuya= He pwned Ganju thats not exactly great,Yama= The Commander. Those are all the Shikai's you mentioned.

5. Luppi said he'd lost. I don't understand how this can be misunderstood. He had him in the ice, he breaks the ice and gg Luppi. Can you show me a picture of Luppi breaking the ice? Because if he didn't then Hitsugaya breaks the Ice and it's game over Luppi.
1. No, his ace in the hole was his shikai. Whether momo was there or not, hitsugaya had to dodge anyways. The point is that Gin was holding his own against Hitsugaya's shikai without using his own until Hitsugaya finally froze Gin's hand, then he just used his shikai once.

2. Aizen.

3. What is your argument here? Are you seriously trying to say that Po is weaker than Grimmjow's fraccion? He held his own against shikai Ikkaku without even releasing.

4. Gin=powerful, if he wanted to, he could have killed ichigo (by breaking his sword in a similar fashion to Kenpachi). The rest of them arn't hax at all, they're cheap, but so what, your acting like in order to really fight you need to use bankai, which is completely not true (look at ichigo vs. renji and ichigo vs. kenpachi).

5. When has Hitsugaya "shattered" a opponent anywhere near captain level, never, your arguement is moot. Shattering fraccion doesn't equal shattering captains. Engulfing an opponent in ice isn't endgame.

Raizen
October 12, 2008, 01:12 PM
OK, in the end everyone has a different opinion.
I for one don't think hitsu is as weak as most of u proclaimed. He has the strongest ice based zanpaktou and the youngest captain. If he was not qualified they wouldn't have chosen him. Either way, hitsu has been given some pretty bad fights. Hopefully his fight w/ halibel will bring him some respect.

As for the ice prison, the reason it is so hard to use is b/c it is difficult to get out of. Luppi was screwed. He would have died if the negaccion didn't show up.Can't exactly breathe when ur frozen. As for Gin vs Hitsu, he works w/ aizen and was stated to be a genius himself so he must be strong. But hitsu managed to get him to fight seriously even if it was the last moment. Gin shikai is a straight attack, once hitsu reflected it gin is wide open and his arm was frozen too. IDK, I wished momo wasn't there at the time

Kyuugetsu
October 12, 2008, 02:04 PM
OK, in the end everyone has a different opinion.
I for one don't think hitsu is as weak as most of u proclaimed. He has the strongest ice based zanpaktou and the youngest captain. If he was not qualified they wouldn't have chosen him. Either way, hitsu has been given some pretty bad fights. Hopefully his fight w/ halibel will bring him some respect.

As for the ice prison, the reason it is so hard to use is b/c it is difficult to get out of. Luppi was screwed. He would have died if the negaccion didn't show up.Can't exactly breathe when ur frozen. As for Gin vs Hitsu, he works w/ aizen and was stated to be a genius himself so he must be strong. But hitsu managed to get him to fight seriously even if it was the last moment. Gin shikai is a straight attack, once hitsu reflected it gin is wide open and his arm was frozen too. IDK, I wished momo wasn't there at the time

Yes, Hitsugaya was said to have a strongest ice-type zanpakutoh. But then again, that means absolutely nothing. The only other person who has an ice-type zanpakutoh is Rukia. Maybe there are some fodder shinigami who may have ice zanpakutoh as well, but having a better zanpakutoh than Rukia and a few fodder shinigami mean nothing.

The Luppi matter. He surprised Luppi and trapped him. Just because negaccion was what broke him out doesn't mean Luppi couldn't have gotten out by himself. He may have been able to break out after a while. I mean when Rukia froze Grimmjow, he didn't break out instantly. And if that prison was so strong, then how did negaccion break it so easily. In fact, how did negaccion break it at all? Are we even sure negaccion was what broke it because from what I've seen in the manga, negaccion just puts the person in a separate dimension.

Remember when negaccion got Aizen from SS? The negaccion also pulled up the piece of ground Aizen was standing on. It didn't shatter that piece of earth into pieces, so why are we to believe that the negaccion did that to the ice prison. It may be possible that Luppi happened to break out by himself once the negaccion hit.

On the Gin-Hitsugaya matter. Momo just happened to be there. I don't think when Gin activated the shikai that his target was Momo. He could of stopped it after Hitsugaya dodged, but he wanted to end the fight. We must keep in mind that Gin was not trying to kill Hitsugaya. If he did, he would, as someone said, be detained, which could dent Aizen's plan. I think Gin opening his eyes meant he got irritated. I mean it must be irritated to have to resist killing someone who is trying to kill you.

P.S. Who says Luppi has to breathe? You know these people are already dead right?

Hockeychaoz
October 12, 2008, 03:29 PM
All these points you guys are fighting about are irrelevant.
The main arguments are "You can't prove this, but you also can't disprove it."

We have to take the manga as it is. We can't tell if Gin was serious or not. We can ascertain that he was in a tight spot with sword extended and arm frozen, but was he screwed? Who knows?

People are starting to make assumptions just to fortify their own points.

Seriph2
October 12, 2008, 03:37 PM
All these points you guys are fighting about are irrelevant.
The main arguments are "You can't prove this, but you also can't disprove it."

We have to take the manga as it is. We can't tell if Gin was serious or not. We can ascertain that he was in a tight spot with sword extended and arm frozen, but was he screwed? Who knows?

People are starting to make assumptions just to fortify their own points.


EXACTLY you guys are arguing about it like anyone has brought up anything that cant go both ways its just one persons opinion vs another and as we all know OPINIONS are not facts.

Just chill out for 2 weeks and some of these questions will be answered simple as that, but currently we're all just beating a dead horse.

xXAshisogiJizoXx
October 12, 2008, 04:36 PM
People are starting to make assumptions just to fortify their own points.

guilty as charged :(

but then again, arguing is fun, especially when there are little facts to say one is wrong or one is right :p

Debates il try not to get involved in:
- espada rankings
- hitsu strength
emphasis on the word try...anyways, im happy the anime is gonna start up again, i calculate it would take about 79 weeks until it catches up with the manga completely so...yeah

Onomatopoeia
October 12, 2008, 05:12 PM
1. No, his ace in the hole was his shikai. Whether momo was there or not, hitsugaya had to dodge anyways. The point is that Gin was holding his own against Hitsugaya's shikai without using his own until Hitsugaya finally froze Gin's hand, then he just used his shikai once.

2. Aizen.

3. What is your argument here? Are you seriously trying to say that Po is weaker than Grimmjow's fraccion? He held his own against shikai Ikkaku without even releasing.

4. Gin=powerful, if he wanted to, he could have killed ichigo (by breaking his sword in a similar fashion to Kenpachi). The rest of them arn't hax at all, they're cheap, but so what, your acting like in order to really fight you need to use bankai, which is completely not true (look at ichigo vs. renji and ichigo vs. kenpachi).

5. When has Hitsugaya "shattered" a opponent anywhere near captain level, never, your arguement is moot. Shattering fraccion doesn't equal shattering captains. Engulfing an opponent in ice isn't endgame.

1. If his Ace in the hole had been his Shikai the attack Gin used would have oneshotted Hitsugaya. Since it didn't it's not. Maybe you didn't see the fight but Gin was losing against Hitsugaya before and after Hitsugaya used Shikai. Let me put my point like this, if say Hinamori hadn't been their, would Hitsugaya have needed Rangiku when Gin used Shinsou on him? If you answer Yes, then lol. If you answer no then I think you know as well as I do which was the Ace in the hole.

2.Aizen

3. A weaker Fraccion held his own against Ikkaku's Bankai. Ikkakau's SHikai sucks so beating him in it says nothing. Hitusgaya fought a strong Fraccion and was horribly beaten up while he had limiter on(far far more then Sajin) and then continued to do the exact same thing as Sajin, this means that Hitsugaya fought a stronger opponent Po and was far more damaged yet did the exact same thing. And we all know that Shawlong was strong/incosistent as hell in the first place. So yes what Hitsugaya did was more impressive then Sajin. THe arguement is that everyone holds it against Hitsugaya that he didn't obliterate his opponenet with only 1/5 of his power. Sajin does the same thing but no one attacks him for that.

4. Proof that Gin's Shikai is at all impressive I want it now. I'll take my manga facts over your theories. And did you just say hypnosis over all senses and to do anything you wish without the enemy noticing wasn't Haxxed, or that someone blocking someone's attack even 4 times which would then quadruple the weight and thus screw the opponent over horribly not haxxed:oh? Next Haxxed means very cheap, argue over semantics with me but it won't change the truth. For something to be haxxed it has to be something that would help you win a fight despite the fact that your opponent was obscenely more powerful then you. All the attacks that I named that were haxxed fall under this category.

5. Hmmm... Hitsugaya's Ice attacks only don't work if the opponent breaks free. So then Luppi broke free by himself...where? I don't see how my point is moot but Vice Versa is most certainly true. And I think your arguing that Hitsugaya couldn't screw Luppi over once he was in the Ice.

And seriously Luppi did not break out of the ice immediatly since he didn't do it why would he be able to do it seconds later?And if your really going to argue that look at this (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/236/17/) the ice doesn't shatter like it would if Luppi actually broke it. Instead it floated off. Luppi didn't break it, it's not a mistake that it only broke off from Luppi once the Negaccion hit.

hajialibaig
October 12, 2008, 06:52 PM
I for one don't think hitsu is as weak as most of u proclaimed. He has the strongest ice based zanpaktou and the youngest captain. If he was not qualified they wouldn't have chosen him. Either way, hitsu has been given some pretty bad fights. Hopefully his fight w/ halibel will bring him some respect.

....Halibel is one of the top 3 Espada! All the "pretty bad fights" Hitsugaya fought involved opponents who were far weaker than a top Espada, save for Aizen. And here you are implying that Hitsugaya "somehow" has a better chance to fare against Halibel than all the previous weaklings he fought such as Luppi and Grimmjow's fraccion...jokes.
[hr]

i calculate it would take about 79 weeks until it catches up with the manga completely so...yeah

Which random number generator did you use to come up with that number

Onomatopoeia
October 12, 2008, 07:07 PM
If someone could give me how many eps the current Filler Arc is and whether it's over or not. From that I could probablly give a good estimate of how many episodes it will be till the Anime catches up with the Manga. Though this would all depend on whether the Anime stayed on the same track as the Manga.

xXAshisogiJizoXx
October 12, 2008, 07:11 PM
Which random number generator did you use to come up with that number

actually, i made a BIG mistake, theres 55 chapters from 286 (where the manga left off) including the gaiden arc, however, i forgot to divide that number by 3, since its an avg of 3 chapters per episode so yeah,...ill do my calc here so you can see where i get the # from
55/3= roughly 18
18/3= exactly 6
6/3= exaqctly 2
so, 18+6+2=26, big mistake on my part, however basic addition and multiplication doesnt require a number generator :oh...really

this is if they choose to go straight through, which they wont, theyll put another filler in somewhere

hajialibaig
October 12, 2008, 07:35 PM
actually, i made a BIG mistake, theres 55 chapters from 286 (where the manga left off) including the gaiden arc, however, i forgot to divide that number by 3, since its an avg of 3 chapters per episode so yeah,...ill do my calc here so you can see where i get the # from
55/3= roughly 18
18/3= exactly 6
6/3= exaqctly 2
so, 18+6+2=26, big mistake on my part, however basic addition and multiplication doesnt require a number generator :oh...really

this is if they choose to go straight through, which they wont, theyll put another filler in somewhere


Yea, 26 weeks sounds like a better estimate.. Here is an easier way to do it:

Let X be # of chapters per episode

Since the gap between the anime and manga is 55 chapters now, number of weeks until anime catches up to the manga = 55/(X-1)

Assuming one episode takes 3 chapters as you said, then 55/2 = 27 weeks!

ryanzokuken
October 12, 2008, 08:22 PM
1. If his Ace in the hole had been his Shikai the attack Gin used would have oneshotted Hitsugaya. Since it didn't it's not. Maybe you didn't see the fight but Gin was losing against Hitsugaya before and after Hitsugaya used Shikai. Let me put my point like this, if say Hinamori hadn't been their, would Hitsugaya have needed Rangiku when Gin used Shinsou on him? If you answer Yes, then lol. If you answer no then I think you know as well as I do which was the Ace in the hole.

2.Aizen

3. A weaker Fraccion held his own against Ikkaku's Bankai. Ikkakau's SHikai sucks so beating him in it says nothing. Hitusgaya fought a strong Fraccion and was horribly beaten up while he had limiter on(far far more then Sajin) and then continued to do the exact same thing as Sajin, this means that Hitsugaya fought a stronger opponent Po and was far more damaged yet did the exact same thing. And we all know that Shawlong was strong/incosistent as hell in the first place. So yes what Hitsugaya did was more impressive then Sajin. THe arguement is that everyone holds it against Hitsugaya that he didn't obliterate his opponenet with only 1/5 of his power. Sajin does the same thing but no one attacks him for that.

4. Proof that Gin's Shikai is at all impressive I want it now. I'll take my manga facts over your theories. And did you just say hypnosis over all senses and to do anything you wish without the enemy noticing wasn't Haxxed, or that someone blocking someone's attack even 4 times which would then quadruple the weight and thus screw the opponent over horribly not haxxed:oh? Next Haxxed means very cheap, argue over semantics with me but it won't change the truth. For something to be haxxed it has to be something that would help you win a fight despite the fact that your opponent was obscenely more powerful then you. All the attacks that I named that were haxxed fall under this category.

5. Hmmm... Hitsugaya's Ice attacks only don't work if the opponent breaks free. So then Luppi broke free by himself...where? I don't see how my point is moot but Vice Versa is most certainly true. And I think your arguing that Hitsugaya couldn't screw Luppi over once he was in the Ice.

And seriously Luppi did not break out of the ice immediatly since he didn't do it why would he be able to do it seconds later?And if your really going to argue that look at this (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/236/17/) the ice doesn't shatter like it would if Luppi actually broke it. Instead it floated off. Luppi didn't break it, it's not a mistake that it only broke off from Luppi once the Negaccion hit.

1) Gin was not aiming for Momo. he was aiming for Hitsugaya. Hitsugaya dodged, and the Momo happened to be in the path, THEN Gin mentioned her. it's not like he sees the future and knew Hitsugaya would wait until the tip of the blade was fractions of a milimeter away from his pupil before pulling some impossible duck maneuver. he wasn't targetting Momo. and i stil answer yes to that question. what, just because shinso went by Hitsugaya, if Momo weren't there, Gin was screwed? if his sword was his only means of power and missing a single attack would result in his doom, he wouldn't be a captain.

and how the HELL was Gin losing at all, at any point?
Hitsugaya was fighting with everything he had, trying his best to KILL Gin, all the while Gin fights with only as much as he needs to in order to avoid the attacks and survive, the whole time smiling and LAUGHING AT Hitsugaya and MOCKING him. Hitsugaya looked like a pissed of child throwing a tantrum, trying to attack a calm adult. he was getting handled like a fool before he went shikai.

and, i repeat, even having his arm frozen, the only thing Hitsu landed the whole fight, Gin was still fine and fighting. ice is like paper in bleach. hell, he even left the ice on his arm as he walked away from the fight. having lost his sleeve, i guess the ice was a decent replacement :p not actually cold, and just as bearable as cotton.


2) Edorad held his own against Ikkaku's bankai? uhh....
Edorad did all the damage he did to Ikkaku before Ikkaku went bankai. and he only went bankai because he was getting crushed. he did it to save his life, and because nobody was around.
after he went bankai, he attacked Edorad three times. sliced his fist, cut his arm, then sent his cleaver threw Edorad's side, taking out a huge chunk, killing him. so Edorad managed to survive for a minute or two, most of which was Ikkaku explainined the bankai. and....that's holding your own?
and as for Shawlong, he's not inexplainably, inconsistently strong. when we see Grimmjows backstory, we basically see why Shawlong and co. were as strong as they were. they were perfectly aware of their evolution and were on a quest to continue it, eating all the hollows they could. they went far and became very strong adjuchas before giving up. but i still wouldn't call Shawlong stronger than Po. and the reason nobody calls Komamura on his using bankai on fraccion to on-hit-KO is because there aren't people defending Koma's power blindly without reason, so there's no reason to bring it up. everyone accepts that he may be one of the weaker captains. although his recent spotlight has made him cooler, despite his possible suckiness.

3) Gin killing several huge-hollows in a row within a matter of seconds in a one-shot usage of his shikai isn't impressive? who else has done the same? sure, Aizen could probably have just looked at those hollows hard and kiled the, but as we all know, he's a special case. how about Gin handling the entore ryoka group by knocking Ichigo and Jidanbo outside the gate with his shikai? again, he didn't "fail" to kill Ichigo. he WASN'T SUPPOSED to kill them. Aizen wanted them to break in for his plan. espescially Ichigo, he was interested in him.

also, i have to say, even with kyoka suigetsu, you can't call a person cheap because of their own zanpakuto. your zanpakuto is basically the weaponized form of your soul. it's still your own power. it's YOUR zanpakuto. it's not the same as a guy with a rifle amongst people with slingshots.

if a shinigami can defeat an opponent "more powerful than themselves" because of their zanpakuto, then buddy, the opponent wasn't more powerful.
and yes, i know due to the nature of some zanpakutos, there are type advantages out there. but your sword isn't your only source of fighting as a shinigami. you should still have other techniques in your arsenal.

4) the point isn't that Luppi broke free on his own. everyone knows the negacion broke it off of him. but saying "if Hitsugaya would have broken the ice, he'd of been dead."

.....ok. so....why didn't he break it? what was he doing? it's not like he froze Luppi and then BAM, negaccion came. if he's too incompetent to follow up and kill the damn enemy after he just ran his mouth to that same enemy about not following up and killing him, then that can go right in the box labeled "reasons Hitsugaya sucks" with his weakness.

Seriph2
October 12, 2008, 09:15 PM
1) Gin was not aiming for Momo. he was aiming for Hitsugaya. Hitsugaya dodged, and the Momo happened to be in the path, THEN Gin mentioned her. it's not like he sees the future and knew Hitsugaya would wait until the tip of the blade was fractions of a milimeter away from his pupil before pulling some impossible duck maneuver. he wasn't targetting Momo. and i stil answer yes to that question. what, just because shinso went by Hitsugaya, if Momo weren't there, Gin was screwed? if his sword was his only means of power and missing a single attack would result in his doom, he wouldn't be a captain.

and how the HELL was Gin losing at all, at any point?
Hitsugaya was fighting with everything he had, trying his best to KILL Gin, all the while Gin fights with only as much as he needs to in order to avoid the attacks and survive, the whole time smiling and LAUGHING AT Hitsugaya and MOCKING him. Hitsugaya looked like a pissed of child throwing a tantrum, trying to attack a calm adult. he was getting handled like a fool before he went shikai.

and, i repeat, even having his arm frozen, the only thing Hitsu landed the whole fight, Gin was still fine and fighting. ice is like paper in bleach. hell, he even left the ice on his arm as he walked away from the fight. having lost his sleeve, i guess the ice was a decent replacement :p not actually cold, and just as bearable as cotton.


2) Edorad held his own against Ikkaku's bankai? uhh....
Edorad did all the damage he did to Ikkaku before Ikkaku went bankai. and he only went bankai because he was getting crushed. he did it to save his life, and because nobody was around.
after he went bankai, he attacked Edorad three times. sliced his fist, cut his arm, then sent his cleaver threw Edorad's side, taking out a huge chunk, killing him. so Edorad managed to survive for a minute or two, most of which was Ikkaku explainined the bankai. and....that's holding your own?
and as for Shawlong, he's not inexplainably, inconsistently strong. when we see Grimmjows backstory, we basically see why Shawlong and co. were as strong as they were. they were perfectly aware of their evolution and were on a quest to continue it, eating all the hollows they could. they went far and became very strong adjuchas before giving up. but i still wouldn't call Shawlong stronger than Po. and the reason nobody calls Komamura on his using bankai on fraccion to on-hit-KO is because there aren't people defending Koma's power blindly without reason, so there's no reason to bring it up. everyone accepts that he may be one of the weaker captains. although his recent spotlight has made him cooler, despite his possible suckiness.

3) Gin killing several huge-hollows in a row within a matter of seconds in a one-shot usage of his shikai isn't impressive? who else has done the same? sure, Aizen could probably have just looked at those hollows hard and kiled the, but as we all know, he's a special case. how about Gin handling the entore ryoka group by knocking Ichigo and Jidanbo outside the gate with his shikai? again, he didn't "fail" to kill Ichigo. he WASN'T SUPPOSED to kill them. Aizen wanted them to break in for his plan. espescially Ichigo, he was interested in him.

also, i have to say, even with kyoka suigetsu, you can't call a person cheap because of their own zanpakuto. your zanpakuto is basically the weaponized form of your soul. it's still your own power. it's YOUR zanpakuto. it's not the same as a guy with a rifle amongst people with slingshots.

if a shinigami can defeat an opponent "more powerful than themselves" because of their zanpakuto, then buddy, the opponent wasn't more powerful.
and yes, i know due to the nature of some zanpakutos, there are type advantages out there. but your sword isn't your only source of fighting as a shinigami. you should still have other techniques in your arsenal.

4) the point isn't that Luppi broke free on his own. everyone knows the negacion broke it off of him. but saying "if Hitsugaya would have broken the ice, he'd of been dead."

.....ok. so....why didn't he break it? what was he doing? it's not like he froze Luppi and then BAM, negaccion came. if he's too incompetent to follow up and kill the damn enemy after he just ran his mouth to that same enemy about not following up and killing him, then that can go right in the box labeled "reasons Hitsugaya sucks" with his weakness.



Im not taking sides here im not for or against hitsu being strong/weak but once again I have to point out OPINIONS in your post.

how much "power" he used or how serious gin was is not necessarily proven by his demeanor, hes been shown smiling/eyes closed throughout the entire manga ( and no im not saying he hasnt been shown without a smile ) thats hardly evidence. Just like shunsui's personality allows him to still joke around with the espada that hardly is an indicator that hes not taking his upcoming fight serious which is evident by his follow up comment.

So him leaving the ice on his arm is an indicator that he just "shrugged" it off? Once again pure opinion, if anything having a frozen limb and just "shaking it off" risks chance of breakage, for all we know he went home to thaw out and didnt want to risk injury. Once again pure opinion.

As far as him not smashing luppi while he was encased in ice once again this is pure speculation on your part, why didn't kenpachi go kendo against ichigo when they first met? Why didn't tousen just instantly slay kenpachi when he trapped him initially? Why didnt yoriuchi instantly kill yammi? Why didnt urahara instantly destroy that underdeveloped espada? Are you saying all the above mentioned are "weak" because they decided to not take FULL advantage of an opening/opportunity to instantly end the fight? Once again it neither proves him powerful nor weak the fact that he didnt just shatter luppi and it is unknown whether or not he would have been able to shatter him or not. Once again this is nothing but speculation.

Im not trying to be a dickhead but as others like myself have already suggested STOP with the hitsu is weak/strong debate stop with the "barragan/stark/hali are number so and so" debate we DO NOT KNOW. There is nothing factual being brought up this is all skewed speculation and twisted opinions. Its just a matter of waiting 2 weeks or so and we will have all the answers its fine speculating and stating theories but its gotten out of hand when people are actually claiming "factual" statements and telling other people they are "wrong" for their OPINIONS.

ryanzokuken
October 12, 2008, 09:52 PM
i didn't even read your whole post after getting the jist of your main point; we should all shut up and stop arguing.

well, we're having a discussion, and if we want to discuss Hitsu's power, we can and will. it's relevant to this thread topic, as he is about to have the hardest fight of his life, and his abilities are a factor.

if you don't want to read our posts or partake, don't.

Onomatopoeia
October 12, 2008, 10:28 PM
1) Gin was not aiming for Momo. he was aiming for Hitsugaya. Hitsugaya dodged, and the Momo happened to be in the path, THEN Gin mentioned her. it's not like he sees the future and knew Hitsugaya would wait until the tip of the blade was fractions of a milimeter away from his pupil before pulling some impossible duck maneuver. he wasn't targetting Momo. and i stil answer yes to that question. what, just because shinso went by Hitsugaya, if Momo weren't there, Gin was screwed? if his sword was his only means of power and missing a single attack would result in his doom, he wouldn't be a captain.

and how the HELL was Gin losing at all, at any point?
Hitsugaya was fighting with everything he had, trying his best to KILL Gin, all the while Gin fights with only as much as he needs to in order to avoid the attacks and survive, the whole time smiling and LAUGHING AT Hitsugaya and MOCKING him. Hitsugaya looked like a pissed of child throwing a tantrum, trying to attack a calm adult. he was getting handled like a fool before he went shikai.

and, i repeat, even having his arm frozen, the only thing Hitsu landed the whole fight, Gin was still fine and fighting. ice is like paper in bleach. hell, he even left the ice on his arm as he walked away from the fight. having lost his sleeve, i guess the ice was a decent replacement :p not actually cold, and just as bearable as cotton.


2) Edorad held his own against Ikkaku's bankai? uhh....
Edorad did all the damage he did to Ikkaku before Ikkaku went bankai. and he only went bankai because he was getting crushed. he did it to save his life, and because nobody was around.
after he went bankai, he attacked Edorad three times. sliced his fist, cut his arm, then sent his cleaver threw Edorad's side, taking out a huge chunk, killing him. so Edorad managed to survive for a minute or two, most of which was Ikkaku explainined the bankai. and....that's holding your own?
and as for Shawlong, he's not inexplainably, inconsistently strong. when we see Grimmjows backstory, we basically see why Shawlong and co. were as strong as they were. they were perfectly aware of their evolution and were on a quest to continue it, eating all the hollows they could. they went far and became very strong adjuchas before giving up. but i still wouldn't call Shawlong stronger than Po. and the reason nobody calls Komamura on his using bankai on fraccion to on-hit-KO is because there aren't people defending Koma's power blindly without reason, so there's no reason to bring it up. everyone accepts that he may be one of the weaker captains. although his recent spotlight has made him cooler, despite his possible suckiness.

3) Gin killing several huge-hollows in a row within a matter of seconds in a one-shot usage of his shikai isn't impressive? who else has done the same? sure, Aizen could probably have just looked at those hollows hard and kiled the, but as we all know, he's a special case. how about Gin handling the entore ryoka group by knocking Ichigo and Jidanbo outside the gate with his shikai? again, he didn't "fail" to kill Ichigo. he WASN'T SUPPOSED to kill them. Aizen wanted them to break in for his plan. espescially Ichigo, he was interested in him.

also, i have to say, even with kyoka suigetsu, you can't call a person cheap because of their own zanpakuto. your zanpakuto is basically the weaponized form of your soul. it's still your own power. it's YOUR zanpakuto. it's not the same as a guy with a rifle amongst people with slingshots.

if a shinigami can defeat an opponent "more powerful than themselves" because of their zanpakuto, then buddy, the opponent wasn't more powerful.
and yes, i know due to the nature of some zanpakutos, there are type advantages out there. but your sword isn't your only source of fighting as a shinigami. you should still have other techniques in your arsenal.

4) the point isn't that Luppi broke free on his own. everyone knows the negacion broke it off of him. but saying "if Hitsugaya would have broken the ice, he'd of been dead."

.....ok. so....why didn't he break it? what was he doing? it's not like he froze Luppi and then BAM, negaccion came. if he's too incompetent to follow up and kill the damn enemy after he just ran his mouth to that same enemy about not following up and killing him, then that can go right in the box labeled "reasons Hitsugaya sucks" with his weakness.

1. Hitsugaya was in the better position in that fight, Gin wasn't. Gins smart enough to know notice who was behind Hitsugaya(he was staring right at Hitsugaya and thus Hinamori who's in that line of sight), he knew that if Hitsugaya dodged or blocked or whatever Hinamori was pretty screwed. Actually White Lightning would have done an even better job then Shinsou at killing Hinamori, in the first place.

And? Mocking someone is a tactic, if you mock someone then they mess up and thus get angry enough to make a mistake. The problem is Hitsugaya didn't mess up or make a mistake despite getting pissed. And actually under the circumstances Hitsugaya was surprisingly calm he even told Kira to get out of their, the only time he actually yelled was when he said his Shikai... but yeah everyone yells for those sort of things. Anyways Gin didn't get a single hit on Hitsugaya, on the other hand Hitsugaya ripped Gin's cloak a little(could just be Anime only though). Hitusgaya got more hits in.

2. About Edorad ... Read the chapter again... you'll notice a moment where Ikkaku's Bankai while at full power actually breaks and in that picture you'll also notice Ikkaku even more bloodied up. He even continued to say that despite being at full power he only won because of luck. Yes Edorad fought him at full power, we have an explanation of this and everything. So yes Edorad held his own. So Shawlong>Edorad<Badly Injured full powered Ikkaku, and horribly injured Hitsugaya>>>>>>Shawlong.

Not only that but you can't even hope to compare Ikkaku's SHikai to his Bankai in the first place. One sucks, one doesn't everyone realizes Ikkaku's Shikai is pointless. Actually look at this (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/328/10/) I'd say it's an inference that if if Ikkaku had used his Bankai then the fight would have gone much differently.

Actually no one here actually protects Hitsugaya's power until people like you go around saying. "HITSUGAYA SUCKS IT'S TRUE!!" your the one at fault here not me I didn't even bring it up, I brought up a theory on how Hitsugaya might beat Halibel. THis arguement is always being started by people like you, people who like Hitsugaya don't protect him until people who are rabid against him just saying how much he sucks. THe reason people don't attack Kommamaru is because they'res no reason to, no one hates him. But one of your reasons works perfectly for Sajin so if you think that Hitsugaya not beating Shawlong at 20% is a bad thing then Sajin not beating Po using Shikai is just as bad. But you don't, cue obvious Bias against Hitsugaya. No one here denies that Hitsugaya might well be the weakest captains you just happen to think he sucks big difference between being weak and sucking.


3.So your arguament is that...well... Gin killed a bunch of fodder hollows who were not even Gillians...great, I think you proved my point. Hell I don't think Aizent even knew about Ichigo and Co. at that point, he knew about them right after sure but before, I can't remember but I don't think so? I want a manga scan actually, just to see.

Next your pretty much saying that despite the fact that it's cheap theirs still a reason for it so it can't be cheap. So if Aizen's Bankai is something that allows one hit kills, it's not cheap because it's his Bankai? Haha I can't believe your arguing over this. Were comparing powers, if everyone else's power was super Haxxed on the Level of Aizen's then we can talk but they're not, hell they're not even on the same planet. Your trying to compare Zans were comparing Shikai's here not Zans I didn't even bring it up your trying to make some weird comparison here. Not only that but Aizen doesn't need other weapons hell a normal martial artist who could cut the Bleach casts skin could kill half of SS with Aizen's power. Thats how Haxxed it is. If you've got a cheap power then you've got a that isn't blockable or has an effect that fucks you over no matter how strong you are. All the things I mentioned go under those two categories.

4. Erm whatever Hitsugaya had Luppi frozen. He could break it if he wanted to. End Game.

Why did Aizen tell everyone in SS about his plans and abilities? Why does Soi Fon tell Yoruichi what her ability is? Why didn't Kenpachi use Kendo on Ichigo? Why didn't etc. etc.

The answer is Plot Induced Stupidity or PIS for short a way to explain something that seems to be common sense for us. Or if that doesn't get you then Hitsugaya wanted to question Luppi. Or Hitsugaya didn't believe that Luppi would be able to get out so he checked on his suboordinates to see if they had wounds like a good commander does. Seriously take your pick.

Or you could use Seriph2's post and just say that they didn't take advantage of it. After all the fight was over, Luppi wasn't breaking out, Hitsugaya could take hia time. I mean if Hitsugaya was like L or had Pre-cog then you could hold it against him that he didn't kill off Luppi when he had the chance but he doesn't.

Oni Shinigami
October 12, 2008, 10:40 PM
I think Gin has the advantage of Hitsugaya very easily.

HITSUGAYA has shown us everything he has to offer, Shikai skills and Bankai skills. It's very underdeveloped but he has revealed his entire hand.

Gin has never fought seriously and hasn't even released his Bankai. Revealing Bankai in battle especially vs a opponent who knows nothing about it, would be a huge advantage. And for someone like Ichimaru who has a Shikai which basically extends his sword for fatal strikes, his Bankai must be vicious.

If Gin has Vaizard powers from Aizen then this is no contest.

ryanzokuken
October 12, 2008, 10:54 PM
1. Hitsugaya was in the better position in that fight, Gin wasn't. Gins smart enough to know notice who was behind Hitsugaya(he was staring right at Hitsugaya and thus Hinamori who's in that line of sight), he knew that if Hitsugaya dodged or blocked or whatever Hinamori was pretty screwed. Actually White Lightning would have done an even better job then Shinsou at killing Hinamori, in the first place.

And? Mocking someone is a tactic, if you mock someone then they mess up and thus get angry enough to make a mistake. The problem is Hitsugaya didn't mess up or make a mistake despite getting pissed. And actually under the circumstances Hitsugaya was surprisingly calm he even told Kira to get out of their, the only time he actually yelled was when he said his Shikai... but yeah everyone yells for those sort of things. Anyways Gin didn't get a single hit on Hitsugaya, on the other hand Hitsugaya ripped Gin's cloak a little(could just be Anime only though). Hitusgaya got more hits in.

2. About Edorad ... Read the chapter again... you'll notice a moment where Ikkaku's Bankai while at full power actually breaks and in that picture you'll also notice Ikkaku even more bloodied up. He even continued to say that despite being at full power he only won because of luck. Yes Edorad fought him at full power, we have an explanation of this and everything. So yes Edorad held his own. So Shawlong>Edorad<Badly Injured full powered Ikkaku, and horribly injured Hitsugaya>>>>>>Shawlong.

Not only that but you can't even hope to compare Ikkaku's SHikai to his Bankai in the first place. One sucks, one doesn't everyone realizes Ikkaku's Shikai is pointless. Actually look at this (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/328/10/) I'd say it's an inference that if if Ikkaku had used his Bankai then the fight would have gone much differently.

Actually no one here actually protects Hitsugaya's power until people like you go around saying. "HITSUGAYA SUCKS IT'S TRUE!!" your the one at fault here not me I didn't even bring it up, I brought up a theory on how Hitsugaya might beat Halibel. THis arguement is always being started by people like you, people who like Hitsugaya don't protect him until people who are rabid against him just saying how much he sucks. THe reason people don't attack Kommamaru is because they'res no reason to, no one hates him. But one of your reasons works perfectly for Sajin so if you think that Hitsugaya not beating Shawlong at 20% is a bad thing then Sajin not beating Po using Shikai is just as bad. But you don't, cue obvious Bias against Hitsugaya. No one here denies that Hitsugaya might well be the weakest captains you just happen to think he sucks big difference between being weak and sucking.


3.So your arguament is that...well... Gin killed a bunch of fodder hollows who were not even Gillians...great, I think you proved my point. Hell I don't think Aizent even knew about Ichigo and Co. at that point, he knew about them right after sure but before, I can't remember but I don't think so? I want a manga scan actually, just to see.

Next your pretty much saying that despite the fact that it's cheap theirs still a reason for it so it can't be cheap. So if Aizen's Bankai is something that allows one hit kills, it's not cheap because it's his Bankai? Haha I can't believe your arguing over this. Were comparing powers, if everyone else's power was super Haxxed on the Level of Aizen's then we can talk but they're not, hell they're not even on the same planet. Your trying to compare Zans were comparing Shikai's here not Zans I didn't even bring it up your trying to make some weird comparison here. Not only that but Aizen doesn't need other weapons hell a normal martial artist who could cut the Bleach casts skin could kill half of SS with Aizen's power. Thats how Haxxed it is. If you've got a cheap power then you've got a that isn't blockable or has an effect that fucks you over no matter how strong you are. All the things I mentioned go under those two categories.

4. Erm whatever Hitsugaya had Luppi frozen. He could break it if he wanted to. End Game.

Why did Aizen tell everyone in SS about his plans and abilities? Why does Soi Fon tell Yoruichi what her ability is? Why didn't Kenpachi use Kendo on Ichigo? Why didn't etc. etc.

The answer is Plot Induced Stupidity or PIS for short a way to explain something that seems to be common sense for us. Or if that doesn't get you then Hitsugaya wanted to question Luppi. Or Hitsugaya didn't believe that Luppi would be able to get out so he checked on his suboordinates to see if they had wounds like a good commander does. Seriously take your pick.

Or you could use Seriph2's post and just say that they didn't take advantage of it. After all the fight was over, Luppi wasn't breaking out, Hitsugaya could take hia time. I mean if Hitsugaya was like L or had Pre-cog then you could hold it against him that he didn't kill off Luppi when he had the chance but he doesn't.

what's funny is, a lot of your points, i agree with, and you're disagreeing with previous arguments you've made and doing just as much speculation and hypothesization using opinion as i am. the people trying to end this discussion are right, there really isn't enough evidence to argue most of the points we're using, but at a certain point, common sense and experience with anime/manga habbits can lead to accurate assumptions. however, despite the fact that everyone seems to get all emotional and pissy over a forum discussion puts a damper on even having a discussion, so as much as i enjoy debating with you (you're one of the select few who actually uses real evidence and makes good points) i'm probably going to stop after this post. i don't like listening to people get mad and bitch over things so trivial.

points i will make:

i agree, you're right about that. after Gin used shinso, he had one arm frozen and tied up with Hitsu's chain, and his other hand was holding his zan, which had missed. Hitsugaya had his sword poised to strike before Gin used shinso, so yes, Hitsugaya was in a better position, but that doesn't just automatically mean he would have won. this is just another place where assumption comes in. if Hitsu could dodge shinso when it was basically touching his eyeball, who's to say Gin couldn't avoid being harmed there, too?

i never said Hitsu got owned by Gin, or even lost, but it can't be counted as a win if
A) nobody was defeated/killed.
or
B) nobody was even wounded, there wasn't a single attack landed the whole fight.

i'm just arguing a tie-game.

also;
Actually no one here actually protects Hitsugaya's power until people like you go around saying. "HITSUGAYA SUCKS IT'S TRUE!!"

-_- :P i never capitalized it nor used exclamation points, now you're being silly.
and i'm not "rabid against him". I don't get worked up and flip out on people who argue with me. i'm not rabid about anything. i calmly stated that he sucks, which from what i've seen all series long, he does, trying to calm down everyone who was bickering about his weakness and his match with Halibel. i was putting it at what it is and trying to leave it alone for now and wait and see if he can show some improvement and be impressive against his new, godly powerful opponent.
YOU started this argument up again with a mile-long post, huffing and puffing and getting much more defensive than was necessary. caaalllmmm downnn, we're on the internet on a bleach discussion forum. there is no need to get so worked up and defensive. what, are we gonna internet fight? cue the barrage of vulgar, childish messages with random profanities, insults, and threats? no, we're not. we should be able to just talk about this stuff as fellow bleach fans without everyone getting pissed off. O_O sheesh.


about Ikkaku and Edorad...

i did as you said and read the chapters again.

yes, Ikkaku's bankai blade breaks, but it's not because of anything Edorad did. it is explained that along with the amazing power that comes with the bankai, it's also brittle and fragile to breakage under pressure. it's just because of the force and power used, along with Edorad's hard skin that it broke. except for the end attack when the blade broke off the handle, Edorad did do that.

after Ikkaku went bankai, the only attack Edorad landed was in the end when they both attacked eachother. Ikkaku dropped, yea, but he was already beat up really bad as it was, as you could see before he even went bankai.

here, you can see Ikkaku, beat up, covered in blood, just after going bankai.
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-205-page-6.html

and here, you can see him, in the same condition, just before collapsing.
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-206-page-2.html

he isn't any worse looking.

Edorad tries to attack at the beginning, but gets his fist sliced, then Ikkaku comes down on his arm.

after a total of like 2 or 3 minutes, and 3 attacks, Edorad only damaged Ikkaku the one time in their final clash, which resulted in Edorad's death. every time Ikkaku made a move, it resulted in a wound for Edorad.

i suppose it could be argued either way, but i personally wouldn't call that "holding your own".

my point about Gin killing the hollows wasn't that he's godly powerful or something. i know they were crap ass hollows, i was just saying, that's a display of his shikai's usefulness. few others can dispatch that many enemies in on burst with their shikai.

and yes, Aizen knew about Ichigo and co. and made sure it was Gin, his right hand man, that met them first and dealt with them. remember Gin being scolded at the captain's meeting for going without being ordered to? well, read chapter 175, Aizen explains it all.

and about the cheapness stuff...

"Your trying to compare Zans were comparing Shikai's here not Zans I didn't even bring it up your trying to make some weird comparison here."

.......... o_o?

your shikai isn't your zanpakuto? really? i was under the crazy impression that sealed form/katana, shikai, and bankai, were all zanpakuto.


someone's shikai is part of their zanpakuto. in fact, it's the unsealed form of it, so basically, it's true form. and bankai is it's next level, the powered up form.

and if your zanpakuto is your soul in weapon form, ergo, your own power, then your shikai also counts as your own power.

if someone can defeat someone else with their shikai, then they defeat them. more powerful, better fighter, lucky, circumstancial, sure, these could all be excuses, but when you win, you win. if your shikai beats someone else's shikai, you can't honestly be called below them.

and about Luppi, yes, i know, Hitsugaya had him frozen and for whatever reason hadn't broken him yet and he escaped. but, again, Hitsugaya still didn't take the initiative, after talking shit to Luppi about the exact same mistake, and it lead to Luppi surviving.

"you failed to kill me, shinigami"

as Luppi said.

alright, i'm done. actually, it's fine if you don't even bother reading this or arguing back. :P

Doombot
October 13, 2008, 01:44 AM
No one cares about Hitsugaya. He's one of the weaker captains... if you don't believe that then you're an idiot. It's not that he doesn't have the potential he's just too young to be super powerful. Let us remember that Gin was a genius level shinigami at such a young age and probably has gone through much more experience then Hitsugaya.

If Gin is Aizen's #2 guy then he is clearly much stronger then everyone thinks. Once again people are doubting Aizen and his crew. I recall people doubting Aizen in the gaiden and it was proven that he had everyone under his control.

Hopefully Halibel just one shots him and ends all this madness.


I mean if Hitsugaya was like L or had Pre-cog then you could hold it against him that he didn't kill off Luppi when he had the chance but he doesn't.

Best quote. You are correct. Hitsugaya is no L.

Omi_XII
October 13, 2008, 04:43 AM
These little squabbles are so petty sometimes.

I love how people tend to argue about something they practically know nothing about. Let's be honest, Kubo's characters are immensely inconsistent with one another, especially during battles, and here is a major example:

Ichigo draws with practically the -strongest- Shinigami in Soul Society without the help of a Bankai, to which said Captain then goes on to fight, and beat two Captains using their Bankais.

I think with this in mind you cannot take in to account the fight between Hitsugaya and Gin as it's not sound reasoning, and any such comments relating to hitsugaya being stronger based on these few bits of information is a pretty ignorant thing to do as the motivation and reasoning behind what Gin was trying to do isn't really known. Who knows if he was trying or not, so why argue the point?

I think the subject about the two should just be left until they face off against one another (which I'm sure they will likely do), because these long winded posts that I have to skim over are pretty boring, and without basis if I'm being honest. n_n

Anyway, to the point at hand. I wonder why Wonderweiss had a particular attraction to Urahara? I wonder if he's aware of something we aren't?

gold349
October 13, 2008, 08:36 AM
all I know is that the fights are going to be damn good, the last espada fights other than the odd 1 I enjoyed the turns and twists, even the lame kenpachi using both hands to win...Noitora espada was awesome. I had to give Noitora credit he fought Nell no3 espada before ken then it was both insane demons hacking at each other. The zael fight with Myuri was good considering what he was bale to do before he faced Myuri and after all the abilities that was shown. The current espada have to top that...they just have too. Thinking about it, its going to be cracking, doesn't matter which fights which there will, guaranteed be turns twists too.