The "Invincible" Jutsus thread

[Forever_Melody]

I wrote this thread in response to the numerous debates going on in the versus threads about jutsus. With this thread, it will be easier for you guys to analyze and debate specific jutsus and their strengths/weaknesses. That way, flawed arguments in the versus threads will hopely decrease.

Ok so this thread should test your analytical capacities of the manga according to statements, facts and overall observation.

All jutsus, no matter how strong, have always had a drawback, a weakness or some kind of counter to them. With this, Kishi demonstrates that no jutsu can be an instant-win, an auto-kill or whatnot. He smartly implements a drawback system to everything. Every strength has a weakness and so forth.

Now, what are these drawbacks? Some are stated obviously by the manga, others are stated in databooks and others(these are the more interesting ones I find) can be derived or extrapolated from manga events and statements of the jutsus in action.

Now, the easiest jutsus to analyze are the ones with the obvious flaws like FRS, where it destroys your arm and needs a close range hit to be effective(which isn't an easy requirement these days).

So I have dressed a small list of these types of very high level jutsus which would be fun for people to analyze and extricate the flaws(no matter how small) in these. Also, feel free to add to the list, I might've forgotten some.

- Amaterasu
- Tsukiyomi
- Susanoo
- Kirin
- C4
- Hirashin
- Madara's space/time jutsu
- Hermit mode/Sage mode
- Kakashi's MS jutsu
- Shinra Tensei/Banshou Ten'in/Chibaku Tensei

Feel free to add in other jutsus(even if they aren't high tier) to the list :tem. Hopefully this'll become a better place to discuss jutsus so that they can be better pit against each other in a versus thread. As it stands, people are arguing on 2 jutsus, when their own understanding of each technique is different.

Anyways, discuss!

[Shaunlim]

Nice thread Melody. For me, let me list down the weaknesses :

-Amateratsu
-consumes loads of chakra
-makes your eye bleed and cause pain to your eye
-basically makes you blind if used often
-is possible to avoid with Kawamiri(is possible if the opponent knows it's coming)

-Tsukiyomi
-also consumes loads of chakra
- eye contact is needed which could be hard if everyone is moving around at high speed.
-also makes you blind

-Susano'o
-since it is huge, people would find it easy to avoid it's attack
-consumes loads of chakra and even eat your life force
-all people have to do is hide from it and wait for the user to die

-Kirin
-takes a long time to prepare
-time is needed to gather the lightning
- can be redirected by lightning rod(which can be anything metallic)
- can be redirected by another person who can manipulate lightning element as well

-C4
-can't really think of any but if anything it is dangerous to the user as well since the user can mistakenly inhale some of the mini bombs
-the *bombing* power is weaker than C1

-Hiraishin
-can't really think of any as well but if anything probably the limit of the tags and kunais

-Madara's S/T
-as far as I can tell, there is none at all but if anything probably the time taken to warp is not really instant since you can see Madara forming some type of black hole which sucks him in before teleporting, meaning it is possible that attacks can follow Madara.

-Hermit Mode
-no drawbacks from this if the chakra is balanced well but the concentration and time taken to gather natural energy is potential a drawback though not a big one.

-Kakashi's MS (Kamui)
-loads of chakra is needed
-makes you go blind
-must be able to concentrate in order to determine the range of jutsu

-FRS
-loads of chakra
- time taken to cast it
- basically destroys your hand if overused
- hard to connect unless distraction is present
- can be avoided with Kawamiri as well(though unlikely)

-Chidori
-chakra is needed though not exponential but still a rather large amount
-sharingan is needed
-Kawamiri as well(unlikely but possible)

-Rasengan
-hard to connect due to the large motion that is produced
-takes a lot of concentration
-Kawamiri is also a problem here

-Opening of gates and lotus
-stressful for the body and basically kills at the 8th gate

Anyways, that's all I could think of atm.

[CupofDice]

Well, since he lists the weaknesses, let me list the strengths XD and a few weaknesses (though not so much to the user) as well.

- Amaterasu
- Most mysterious technique in my book.
- Said to burn for 7 days, and 7 nights. The ultimate fire element attack.
- Obviously it can be subdued as Jiraiya did so, but this was with seals, not an element. Sasuke has also shown the ability to subdue it. It is unknown if Itachi had this ability. If it is possible to defeat with another element, specifically the water element, it has not been shown.

- Tsukiyomi
- The ultimite genjutsu for practical use. A space/time genjutsu.
- Within only a few seconds in the 'physical' world, it seems to the one affected like 24 hours has passed in the genjutsu world.
- Since it is a genjutsu, theoritcally it can be broken by stopping the affected's flow of chakra. This has been shown to be true when Sasuke used it on Killer Bee.

- Susanoo
- Ultimate defensive jutsu. All attacks on the user are rebounded while the jutsu is in effect.
- Ultimate sealing technique. Totsuka is the most powerful sword and sealing technique as shown in the manga. Compared to Minato's Shiki Fūjin, which has the effect of killing the user, and Akatsuki's Fūin Jutsu: Genryū Kyū Fūjin which takes days to perform, Susanoo is indeed the most powerful sealing jutsu since it's only effect is harming the users health while performing it and it does not take the time Akatsuki's sealing jutsu takes. The only case against it is that we do not know how well Susanoo wields Totsuka. Can Susanoo only use it in defense for example?

- Kirin
- Ultimate Ligntning jutsu as shown so far.
- Similar to Amaterasu in that it can be guided, through the use of chidori, to the target.
- Which is faster? Amaterasu, or Kirin? Who knows. One is as fast as sight, the other as lightning.
- Amaterasu is definitely more powerful though. Kirin can only be used once, not to mention only on a single opponent while Amaterasu can burn a village down.
- It is possible that Naruto's completed FRS can defeat this jutsu. Too early to judge until we get some wind vs lightning action.

- C4
- Ultimate earth jutsu?
- This jutsu, while it is possible that it is the ultimate earth technique, does not match up with Amaterasu, and Kirin. Unlike those 2, C4 has been shown to be weak against another element when Sasuke used electricity through out his body.

- Hiraishin
- Powerful Space/Time ninjutsu
- Can travel possibly unlimited distances as long as there is a seal where you wish to travel.
- The simpler a technqiue is, the less likely it has weaknesses. I have seen no weakness in Hiraishin other than the limit of having to use seals, kunais, and other objects to be able to transport. As shown in the manga, Minato handled that weakness quite well.

- Madara's space/time jutsu
- Powerful Space/Time ninjutsu
- No need for seals
- Weakness are unknown, but there may be a limit on how far one can travel. I doubt it though since this is similar a technique to Kakashi's Kamui.

- Hermit mode/Sage mode
- Ultimate Doping technique (though doping is a stretch)
- Yes, I am comparing this technique to using drugs. I do this because you are taking a substance from outside of your body and melding it with the substance inside to create an greater effect of your body.
- As shown in the manga, some ninjas take drugs to enhance their power, usually with negative side effects. This technique has been made to clearly have no negative side effects.
- Unmatched enhanced physical strength, and greatly enhanced jutsus.
- Healing ability as you are being damaged.
- No limit has been seen on it's use.

- Kakashi's MS (Kamui)
- Transports the affected to another dimension.
- Weak compared to the jutsus above
- Takes to long to 'charge' up (compare to Amaterasu), and uses up too much chakra for the user in question (Kakashi).
- This may have changed of course by this time in the manga, but until we see proof, then this technique is not that useful in battle since it requires the opponent to stay stationary in the user's view.

FRS-
- Ultimate wind jutsu since it involves the ultimate spatial recompostion jutsu, the Rasengan.
- While it may take time to charge up, the user in question (Naruto) is good at diversion tactics, so time becomes less of an issue.
- It destroys the affected user's whole body if they are hit correctly with it.

Kaneshibari Genjutsu
- Powerful genjutsu that actually traps the soul
- It may take too long to charge up and give away your position, but is a great technique for when you are trying to trap someone (like when you are on the run, and the Anbu are chasing you).
- A big weakness is that it requires two, and as said before, the singing which gives you away to your enemy.

[Forever_Melody]

Ok I thought I'd like to point out some less obvious lfaws in some jutsus.

Amaterasu: As Zetsu described, the black flames converge and burn everything the eye focuses on. Therefore, a blunt tactic would be to not allow the user to visually see you :blink. As with all of Sharingan's power(save maybe Susanoo), it is ineffective if the user is unable to see you. From the immense drain of chakra, the user cannot afford to spam it, therefore he'd need a clear view of you to make sure his hit would connect.

Kirin: Kirin is a not an actual jutsu persay, but a combination of a jutsu(Gouryuuka) and some natural phenomenon(creation of the thunderclouds). Therefore, any stop in the preparations would stop Kirin. Sasuke uses Gouryuuka to heat up the air in the clouds and cause a warm current. What if someone were to simply shoot cold water and cool the warm front created, the thundercloud wouldn't be created and Kirin would end right there no? :p

Another topic I felt like addressing was Madara's space/time jutsu vs Minato's Hiraishin. The manga depicted the former as being superior to Hiraishin from the lack of needing a seal. Therefore, people assume it is superior in every aspect to Minato's jutsu, but I disagree. Minato's jutsu can be superior to Madara's in teh sense that it relies on the seal. Madara's jutsu limits itself to one thing: Madara's subconscious. Madara needs to know where he's going to get there(unless you want to argue Madara doesn't have a clue where he teleports to when he teleports :eyeroll). He also needs specifics on his location destination otherwise he might teleport into a wall or something. Minato doesn't care where he's going(nor does he need ot know where). All Yondaime needs is a seal there and BOOM! He appears. No knowledge needed of the surroundings and such. In that sense, Hiraishin IMO is superior to Madara's space/time jutsu. If Madara and Minato were chasing after some guy, Madara would need to knwo where the guy is going to teleport there while Minato just needs to stick a tag onto the guy and he can appear where that guy is, regardless of where said guy would be.

Thanks for replying guys ^_^

Hopefully more discussion(and less obvious stuff) will emerge from analysis of the manga.

[Darth Executor]

-is possible to avoid with Kawamiri(is possible if the opponent knows it's coming)

I'm not sure about this. Itachi was purposefully avoiding killing Sasuke. Why would he burn off half of him if he wanted him alive?



-eat your life force
-all people have to do is hide from it and wait for the user to die


I don't think Susanoo automatically kills you. Itachi was diseased, blind and exhausted. Not to mention that after he took care of Oro he planned on dying. It's possible that you can just stop Susanoo before it kills you.



-Kirin
- can be redirected by lightning rod(which can be anything metallic)
- can be redirected by another person who can manipulate lightning element as well

I think these are both speculation. Considering how fast it hits it's perfectly plausible that nobody has the reaction time to stop it.

[kkck]

Ok I thought I'd like to point out some less obvious lfaws in some jutsus.

Amaterasu: As Zetsu described, the black flames converge and burn everything the eye focuses on. Therefore, a blunt tactic would be to not allow the user to visually see you :blink. As with all of Sharingan's power(save maybe Susanoo), it is ineffective if the user is unable to see you. From the immense drain of chakra, the user cannot afford to spam it, therefore he'd need a clear view of you to make sure his hit would connect.

Kirin: Kirin is a not an actual jutsu persay, but a combination of a jutsu(Gouryuuka) and some natural phenomenon(creation of the thunderclouds). Therefore, any stop in the preparations would stop Kirin. Sasuke uses Gouryuuka to heat up the air in the clouds and cause a warm current. What if someone were to simply shoot cold water and cool the warm front created, the thundercloud wouldn't be created and Kirin would end right there no? :p

Another topic I felt like addressing was Madara's space/time jutsu vs Minato's Hiraishin. The manga depicted the former as being superior to Hiraishin from the lack of needing a seal. Therefore, people assume it is superior in every aspect to Minato's jutsu, but I disagree. Minato's jutsu can be superior to Madara's in teh sense that it relies on the seal. Madara's jutsu limits itself to one thing: Madara's subconscious. Madara needs to know where he's going to get there(unless you want to argue Madara doesn't have a clue where he teleports to when he teleports :eyeroll). He also needs specifics on his location destination otherwise he might teleport into a wall or something. Minato doesn't care where he's going(nor does he need ot know where). All Yondaime needs is a seal there and BOOM! He appears. No knowledge needed of the surroundings and such. In that sense, Hiraishin IMO is superior to Madara's space/time jutsu. If Madara and Minato were chasing after some guy, Madara would need to knwo where the guy is going to teleport there while Minato just needs to stick a tag onto the guy and he can appear where that guy is, regardless of where said guy would be.

Thanks for replying guys ^_^

Hopefully more discussion(and less obvious stuff) will emerge from analysis of the manga.

I dont think it is that easy for hirashin as for not having to worry about where he pops out of. Obviously he knows where he is throwing the kunai, but if the place where is lands is unfavorable, such as a narrow space, I dont see how it wont be a problem. To be honest I think madara's is better for a number of reasons:
Madara can teleport parts of his body to avoid damage.

Madara is not limited as to where he can go. As madara showed, he was able to teleport instantly to where sasuke was, wich was about 10 km in a second. Minato on the other hand is limited to going were the tag is.

Madara also showed he could travel distances much longer than 10 km since he was at one moment seen at amekagure and the next one at VOTE. That trip from what has been seen so far takes a couple of days normaly.

Also he apparently didnt need much knowledge of what the terrain was like since he teleported there and the terrain had gone throught quite some change.

Madara probably wouldnt be able to pull of what minato did during the gaiden. Minato used the tags and other ninjas to guide him. But that doesnt mean madara wouldnt be able to do something similar. Just by spotting the enemy he could instantly move behind them and attack.

Also the free teleport thing would mean cornering madara is almost imposible since he could just disappear into another country(of his liking) in a sec. Minato on the other hand would need a very conveniently place tag to do this.

Minato's jutsu could have tactical advantages over madara's, such as tracking someone with a tag or similar things, but overall I would say madara's is more practical.

[Shaunlim]

I'm not sure about this. Itachi was purposefully avoiding killing Sasuke. Why would he burn off half of him if he wanted him alive?



I don't think Susanoo automatically kills you. Itachi was diseased, blind and exhausted. Not to mention that after he took care of Oro he planned on dying. It's possible that you can just stop Susanoo before it kills you.




I think these are both speculation. Considering how fast it hits it's perfectly plausible that nobody has the reaction time to stop it.

1. You brought up a good point with this. Though, I still believe that it is possible to avoid with Kawamiri or something similar. IMO, Orochimaru would be able to survive Amateratsu with his Kawamiri and Hachibi did the same thing though not really the same as Kawamiri.

2. Yes you could, but either way, you would be too drain to continue fighting since the drain is that much. I'm sure it won't kill you in one use since you can stop before you die but like I have said it's not practical. If you are forced to use the jutsu, that most likely means that you are out of options already. With that, either the jutsu kills you or you stop that jutsu and your opponents kill you.

3. Actually there is some flaw to the speed of Kirin. The time taken to prepare Kirin, collect Kirin and direct it towards your opponent. Those are enough to prepare whatever defense you could against Kirin. If not, you could even use the time you have to prevent Kirin from ever happening.

[Forever_Melody]

I dont think it is that easy for hirashin as for not having to worry about where he pops out of. Obviously he knows where he is throwing the kunai, but if the place where is lands is unfavorable, such as a narrow space, I dont see how it wont be a problem. To be honest I think madara's is better for a number of reasons:
Madara can teleport parts of his body to avoid damage.

Madara is not limited as to where he can go. As madara showed, he was able to teleport instantly to where sasuke was, wich was about 10 km in a second. Minato on the other hand is limited to going were the tag is.

Madara also showed he could travel distances much longer than 10 km since he was at one moment seen at amekagure and the next one at VOTE. That trip from what has been seen so far takes a couple of days normaly.

Also he apparently didnt need much knowledge of what the terrain was like since he teleported there and the terrain had gone throught quite some change.

Madara probably wouldnt be able to pull of what minato did during the gaiden. Minato used the tags and other ninjas to guide him. But that doesnt mean madara wouldnt be able to do something similar. Just by spotting the enemy he could instantly move behind them and attack.

Also the free teleport thing would mean cornering madara is almost imposible since he could just disappear into another country(of his liking) in a sec. Minato on the other hand would need a very conveniently place tag to do this.

Minato's jutsu could have tactical advantages over madara's, such as tracking someone with a tag or similar things, but overall I would say madara's is more practical.

I agree. In general purposes of battle, Madara's jutsu is more practical than Minato's jutsu, but the point was that Minato doesn't rely on his knowledge of his destination while Madara does. My point was that Madra's jutsu doesn't eclipse Hiraishin in every possible scenario as some people seem to think. Given some specifics, Hiraishin can out-trump Madara's jutsu.

My example meant that Madara needs to know where he's going to get there. Minato doesn't need that knowledge, he just needs to know theres a seal at that someplace to get there(regardless oif he knows where that someplace is or not).

But as I said, in regular battle, where the places you'll teleport are most often in direct vicinity, Madara's jutsu is more practical.

[wildG]

"My example meant that Madara needs to know where he's going to get there. Minato doesn't need that knowledge, he just needs to know theres a seal at that someplace to get there(regardless oif he knows where that someplace is or not)."

how can minato's jutsu which needs seal beat a technique that doesn't even need seals LoL i think that madara would easily beat minato in aspect of speed because even if minato uses tags to move around or w/e madara can just go anywhere he wants in one second plus that he can teleport parts of his body..

and as said before madara has traveled more than 10 KMs which is kinda against your theory about madara needing to know where to land while warping

[Forever_Melody]

"My example meant that Madara needs to know where he's going to get there. Minato doesn't need that knowledge, he just needs to know theres a seal at that someplace to get there(regardless oif he knows where that someplace is or not)."

how can minato's jutsu which needs seal beat a technique that doesn't even need seals LoL i think that madara would easily beat minato in aspect of speed because even if minato uses tags to move around or w/e madara can just go anywhere he wants in one second plus that he can teleport parts of his body..

and as said before madara has traveled more than 10 KMs which is kinda against your theory about madara needing to know where to land while warping
You misinterpreted what I said.... >.>

I clearly said that Madara's jutsu is far more practical than Minato's, but given a specific context, the reliance on seals rather than your mind can be an advantage.
Imagine you're Madara, you want to go to Italy, but you have no idea what it's like there, you've never seen a picture or anything, how exactly are you supposed to teleport somewhere you can't even picture in your brain? Minato could just ship a box with a seal to Italy and then teleport to the seal, regardless of whether or not Minato knew crap about Italy. THAT was what my example was about.

I never said that Hiraishin was better than Madara's jutsu. I only said in that specific context it was. 99.9% of the time, Madara's jutsu is better.

[ninjabot]

No Edo Tensei?

Edo Tensei Strengths
---------------------
1:Summons whomever the user wishes to summon, as long as they are dead and their soul isn't sealed away.
2:Summoned ninja are of the level they were at death (strength, speed, and chakra-wise)
3:More than one person can be summoned.
4:Complete dominance over summoned bodies
5:Summoned bodies are immortal (injuries instantly healed via ashes replacing wounded parts)

Edo Tensei weaknesses
-------------------------
1:Takes a rediculous amount of pre-fight preperation (gathering of corpse ashes, sacrificing living bodies, covering said bodies in ashes of corpses, planted in golden coffins.)
2:Once the minds of the bodies are whiped with tags, they become mindless killing machines. May or may not effect body's mental capacity.
3: Due to the bodies being exact copies of the deceased ninja they represent, they are limited to the jutsus performed by said ninja in their past life.

Just thought that deserved a place up there. Also, I think we left out Kirin's greatest strength: wielder is not immobile during preperation of jutsu. This strength makes up for any prep time the jutsu has.

[Forever_Melody]

Ah yes, I forgot to mention Edo Tensei. Well, thanks for adding, I doubt I touched every really powerful jutsu out there.

And for your point for Kirin, the fact that it is more a preparation than an actual jutsu is both its greatest strength and its greatest weakness. The Kirin user is free to distract the opponent or do whatever he/she pleases while the preparation undergoes as long as he/she is there to direct the lightning once the preparations are complete(otherwise it would just hit randomly). Likewise, the preparation time also increases the chances of those said preparations to be thwarted. But as said above, the free mobility given allows the user to hopefully prevent that if they can.

Another interesting jutsu to add would be some Bijyuu techniques since Bijyuus are arguably the most powerful beings in the manga.

4tk's and Hachibichi's big chakra ball thingy:
Those are probably the most destructive straightforward techniques in the manga as shown to date(not even Kirin IMO created as much destruction from one shot). On the downside, the ball of chakra has to be compacted to a maximum level so that the chakra is dense enough to create such destruction. This process takes time and also incapacitates the user while they perform it. In 4tk's case, he had to eat the chakra ball which also restricted his movement temporarily.

Shukkaku's Rekkudan:
While this jutsu isn't as destructive as the former mentioned, its destructive power is still considerably high, being able to completely tear through a forest and destroy part of a mountain with one shot. The advantage this jutsu has over the other jutsus of mass destruction is that Shukkaku was able to spam it like there was no tomorrow. This gives the jutsu far more versatility than any other jutsu of the same destructive power, most of which require either much preparation or are very draining and therefore cannot be used often. This jutsu separates itself from the rest by its spammability(for lack of a better word lol :p). On the downside, the power of the jutsu isn't nearly as high as many jutsus that I'd place under the "mass destruction" category such as the other Bijyuu jutsus, Kirin, Amaterasu, Bakousouha or the like, but the fact that it can be launched in large sequences more than makes up for this fact.

[DarkManSharingan32]

Shukkaku's Rekkudan:
While this jutsu isn't as destructive as the former mentioned, its destructive power is still considerably high, being able to completely tear through a forest and destroy part of a mountain with one shot. The advantage this jutsu has over the other jutsus of mass destruction is that Shukkaku was able to spam it like there was no tomorrow. This gives the jutsu far more versatility than any other jutsu of the same destructive power, most of which require either much preparation or are very draining and therefore cannot be used often. This jutsu separates itself from the rest by its spammability(for lack of a better word lol :p). On the downside, the power of the jutsu isn't nearly as high as many jutsus that I'd place under the "mass destruction" category such as the other Bijyuu jutsus, Kirin, Amaterasu, Bakousouha or the like, but the fact that it can be launched in large sequences more than makes up for this fact.

Well...
I'm not sure about that.
A single Renkuuden depleted nearly all of Gamabunta's Chakra.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/136/15/

Considering he only got hit... and preformed a Henge...
I would say that attack is more than devastating.

[Shaunlim]

How does getting attack lowers your chakra. IMO, that was more to Gamabunta being strained from battling the Shukaku.

[Forever_Melody]

I think he meant that one hit to Gamabunta was enough to nearly put his life in danger(remember Gmabunta said he might not be able to survive a 2nd hit).

I never said Rekkudan was weak, I just said it wasn't as strong as some other large mass destruction jutsu we've seen. It still is very powerful in its own right and one shot could easily handle most people if they got hit.

[ophidial]

i think getting attacked lowers your stamina rather than chakra but then stamina is
required to create chakra so.. in effect.

Im wondering what everyone else thinks is stronger, the frog genjutsu or tsukiyomi.
Tsukiyomi is easier to activate but imo the frog genjutsu definately has a more devasting
effect.

[kkck]

Tsukioyomi and frog jutsu have diferent effects and uses.
Tsukioyomi sends you to a world completely controled by itachi and destroys your spirit. The jutsu is so powerfull that just receiving basically cripples you; you are left in a coma like effect. The jutsu also only requires a second of eye contact.

Frog jutsu on the other hand is an extremely powerfull paralizing genjutsu. Unlike tsukioyomi it doesnt have the chakra drain side effect because it uses senjutsu and is made by ma and pa. The drawback is that the jutsu takes a very long time to activate and gives away your position. This jutsu also unlike tsukioyomi, doesnt have any effect on the target after the effect is gone. The jutsu paralises you, but after that effect is gone you can simple walk away. This jutsu is also a better option againts multiple oponents.

Personaly I like tsukioyomi better because it can be used faster and the effect is much cooler than frog jutsu. IMO controlling the illusionary world and destroying your oponents spirit is much cooler than a hax paralizing genjutsu.

[Raizen]

What about Death Reaper Seal???
Strength- Amzaingly dangerous and can be used to seal anything
Weakness- u die

Ad for the hiraishin vs Madara debate, Hiraishin allows u to go anywhere the tag is meaning u don't need specific location and u can move form one kunai to the other in a flash flawlessly and take out enemies (as seen in gaiden when he took out over 50 ninjas in a blink of an eye).
Madra's takes time seeing as how it took a while b4 he can use it and escape shino's bugs. And he has to know the destinations.
Both jave strength and weaknesses, but saying Madara's is better b/c it doesn't require tags is bull. i personally prefer hiraishin seeing as how u can take out countless enemies easily.

[Forever_Melody]

Tsukiyomi is very dangerous in the sense that it's a genjutsu which happens within an instant. In that short amount of time, it would be impossible for any normal person to realize he/she is in a genjutsu AND dispel it, which is why the presence of an Uchiha Sharingan is needed to both detect and immediately dispel the genjutsu. In contrast, its chakra cost is very high and the stress on the use's body is also quite prominent. This makes TSukiyomi a very big winner in 1v1, but an actual bad move when facing any more than 1 opponent since you cannot spam it without dire consequences. Tsukiyomi(along with many of the other Sharingan powers) follow Chiyo's rule that Sharingan is master at 1v1, but loses its effectiveness at 1 vs many.

The Frog Genjutsu on the other hand is suited for multiple opponents. Unlike Tsukiyomi, the infecting chakra is transferred through the medium of sound, therefore any enemy who hears the sound produced will become infected. This makes the Toad genjutsu excel at facing multiple opponents. Of course, the sound gives away your position, but if Ma and Pa could get into sync faster that problem could be remedied quite easily. As said above, the Toad Genjutsu is more of a mass paralyzing genjutsu then an offensive one like Tsukiyomi. They are different in uses and both are quite powerful IMO.

Perhaps another jutsu which hasn't been mentioned, but probably deserves its place within the top jutsus is now Deva Pain's attraction/repulsion ability. It is a massive offensive and defensive technique, being able to defend/repel both physical attacks and chakra based techniques. As an offense, it can literally blast large amounts of gravity onto an opponent, effectively rendering them useless as well as propel and destroy anything around Deva Pain, making for powerful destructive capacities. Its drawback lies within that short time period in between each use where the power is inaccessible. Chakra consumption is as of yet unknown so I can't speak for the toll it takes on Pain.

[Raizen]

Tsukyomi can be easily avoided in a fast paced fight, like speed vs speed.
Frog song on the other hand, u can't escape sound NO MATTER WHAT. Sound travels through air and water. And the human body is made mostly of water

[Forever_Melody]

True, Tsukiyomi can be evaded by simply not looking into the medium(i.e the eyes of the user), while it is much more difficult to block out all sound in the middle of a battle.

[En Yang Ji]

Now that I think about it, Susanoo really isn't that good of a move. Just about anyone can avoid the sword and the genjutsu only works of a stab. It costs a ton of chakra, and it kills the user. IMO, the only thing it does well is defend.

[kkck]

Now that I think about it, Susanoo really isn't that good of a move. Just about anyone can avoid the sword and the genjutsu only works of a stab. It costs a ton of chakra, and it kills the user. IMO, the only thing it does well is defend.

What is your basis to say anyone can avoid the sword though(specially since it has never been done)? The sword is spiritual, which means massless, so most likely is has decent speed. As for the genjutsu, even if it only works by stabbing(rather than the user consciously using it), you still have to worry about very real cuts(just ask oros hydra). Not only that, but it was described by zetsu as the ultimate attack and defence. While I would rather not use a jutsu which kills me, it is still one of the most powerful jutsu ever shown (if not the most powerful).

[segua]

Why do I not see Narutos' harem jutsu up there on that list? However strong sexy jutsu was, the harem jutsu seemed to be invicible. There were only two people that ever resisted sexy jutsu, Jiraiya and Ebisu. Of course, Ebisu was KO'd by the harem jutsu. Kakashi seemed to be able to absorb some sexy jutsu damage such as the from Konohamaru's double sexy jutsu.

And yes, I am being serious.

[Delbi]

Tsukyomi can be easily avoided in a fast paced fight, like speed vs speed.
Frog song on the other hand, u can't escape sound NO MATTER WHAT. Sound travels through air and water. And the human body is made mostly of water

I'm curious, I wonder if a Sharigan User can see through the Frog Song. The Sharigan allows the user to see through any jutsu if they are strong enough, but I wonder if that stands for the Frog Song.

As for the strongest jutsu, Sussano takes the cake, ultimate attack and defense, no one has stopped it yet (although it's only been used once) and we have no reason to believe that anyone could dodge a massless sword like kkck said.

[Forever_Melody]

Susanoo is definitely one of the more powerful jutsus out there, but it has its own uses. I mean, you can kill an army with Susanoo, but it's as effective as some of the other jutsus on that list for example. Susanoo IMO is far better as a defensive jutsu with an offensive bonus :D

Now the only real question is how to beat the damn thing >.<

Btw I'm not sure whether or not a Sharingan user could "see" through the Toad Song. I mean, should we assume those "sound lines" in the manga are only visible to us readers(so we could notice that there was a sound) or are they chakra patterns? If so, I guess you could say the Sharingan might see them. on the other hand, visual genjutsu never gave off any visual signal as to anything with chakra so I'm more inclined to think those lines were for the readers.

[Darth Executor]

Susanoo is definitely one of the more powerful jutsus out there, but it has its own uses. I mean, you can kill an army with Susanoo, but it's as effective as some of the other jutsus on that list for example. Susanoo IMO is far better as a defensive jutsu with an offensive bonus :D

Now the only real question is how to beat the damn thing >.<

Btw I'm not sure whether or not a Sharingan user could "see" through the Toad Song. I mean, should we assume those "sound lines" in the manga are only visible to us readers(so we could notice that there was a sound) or are they chakra patterns? If so, I guess you could say the Sharingan might see them. on the other hand, visual genjutsu never gave off any visual signal as to anything with chakra so I'm more inclined to think those lines were for the readers.

Doujutsu was originally supposed to see through all techniques and dispel them. They got downgraded later. I'm personally not sure if sharingan would see through the frog song. On one hand, it's still useful vs genjutsu since genjutsu affects all your senses and even through sound it would have to mess with your eyes. OTOH, it doesn't go THROUGH your eyes so it might just disrupt your chakra before the sharingan can do anything about it. If Tsukuyomi can go through a native user (Sasuke's) sharingan it's not implausible for the frog song to be able to do the same.

Anyway, I'd add Rasenshuriken and some of Gaara's jutsu (although he mostly uses combinations of imprisonment/crushing). If I had to pick just two it'd probably be Ryuusa Bakuryuu and Sabaku Taisou because of how awesome that anime scene was (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZ8oQ5pwoqI).

While on this subject, what about some of the types of techniques (Mokuton in particular comes to mind) that are obviously really powerful but don't have one "staple" jutsu?

[Raizen]

I'm curious, I wonder if a Sharigan User can see through the Frog Song. The Sharigan allows the user to see through any jutsu if they are strong enough, but I wonder if that stands for the Frog Song.

As for the strongest jutsu, Sussano takes the cake, ultimate attack and defense, no one has stopped it yet (although it's only been used once) and we have no reason to believe that anyone could dodge a massless sword like kkck said.
the sharingan cannot counter EVERY SINGLE jutsus. It gives u an edge but it does not warrant u being able to counter it. Countering something takes time and u have to have the innate ability. For example someone using doton, with sharingan u can see it but it won't help much if u don't have something to counter it with, like lightning element.

As for susanoo, we know that the susanoo itachi used was EQUIPPED with items, that means it didn't have b4. So wat is susanoo basically?? Is the items only for itachi's use?? And i really don't see susanoo as that powerful. Most ninjas like kakashi or J-man hide away and figure out a strategy b4 jumping into fight. And susanoo is basically a time bomb. The longer u use it the closer u reach death

[jodi]

Now that I think about it, Susanoo really isn't that good of a move. Just about anyone can avoid the sword and the genjutsu only works of a stab. It costs a ton of chakra, and it kills the user. IMO, the only thing it does well is defend.

where was it stated that sasunoo kills the user?

a almost dead itachi could wake it up just before a thunder hit him...

[Forever_Melody]

Susanoo doesn't kill the user >.> At least it's not a guarantee that it does. It drains the user's life force. That's the only thing which could prove fatal if a user would decide to keep it upheld long enough.

And interesting fact, DB3 states that Susanoo's items are ethereal while the avatar itself is simply tangible chakra. That means that if you managed to get past the Susanoo's defense(ex: you outnumber it so that it has a hard time covering all its angles), there shouldn't be any reason you couldn't penetrate the avatar itself.

Also note that DB3 states that the ethereal items are an add-on to Susanoo so in fact we're totally unaware of what the avatar does by itself if anything >_>

[Raizen]

Susanoo is good in that the shield can block any forward attacks within range. But if u attack from all sides then susanoo is f-ed up b/c it can't cover all of it.
So i think people praise susanoo b/c they don't really understand it. IMO death reaper Seal is the most deadly attack. U can use it kill as many poeple as u want and cause them suffering for eternity

[Forever_Melody]

Well from a purely theoretical point of view, the Shiki Fuuin causes eternal torment while Susanoo traps the user in a "blissful genjutsu". I mean, blissful doesn't sound that bad lol :p

Ok the end result is the same mind you: they're dead, but still, there are worse things than death according to some lol :XD

[Raizen]

Well from a purely theoretical point of view, the Shiki Fuuin causes eternal torment while Susanoo traps the user in a "blissful genjutsu". I mean, blissful doesn't sound that bad lol :p

Ok the end result is the same mind you: they're dead, but still, there are worse things than death according to some lol :XD
Wai what??? A blissful genjutsu?? Doesn't the sword trap u in an endless deadly genjutsu?? And if u die using susanoo, well u just die and ur fate depends on whether u have been good or bad :p

[Forever_Melody]

Wai what??? A blissful genjutsu?? Doesn't the sword trap u in an endless deadly genjutsu?? And if u die using susanoo, well u just die and ur fate depends on whether u have been good or bad :p

Well actually now that I check it, most translations seem to contradict each other lol :p

One says that it's a "blissful dream", the other qualifies it as "like a drunkard's dream" and the last one says "an intoxicating genjutsu" >.>

Here are other translations just for your pleasure :tem:

It's said that the ones it stabs are sent to a world of illusions similar to the dream of a drunken person, and they're sealed in it eternally.


THE SWORD OF TOTSUKA, ALSO KNOWN AS SAKEGARI'S KATANA, IS A WEAPON SAID TO CARRY SEALING POWERS.
ANYONE AND ANYTHING IT PIERCES BECOMES TRAPPED IN A BLISSFUL, DREAM-LIKE GENJUTSU FOR ALL ETERNITY...OR SO THE LEGEND GOES.



-IT IS SAID THAT THOSE WHO ARE PIERCED BY ITS EDGE WILL BE TRAPPED IN AN INTOXICATING GENJUTSU PLANE FOR ALL ETERNITY

[Raizen]

Well actually now that I check it, most translations seem to contradict each other lol :p

One says that it's a "blissful dream", the other qualifies it as "like a drunkard's dream" and the last one says "an intoxicating genjutsu" >.>

Here are other translations just for your pleasure :tem:

It's said that the ones it stabs are sent to a world of illusions similar to the dream of a drunken person, and they're sealed in it eternally.


THE SWORD OF TOTSUKA, ALSO KNOWN AS SAKEGARI'S KATANA, IS A WEAPON SAID TO CARRY SEALING POWERS.
ANYONE AND ANYTHING IT PIERCES BECOMES TRAPPED IN A BLISSFUL, DREAM-LIKE GENJUTSU FOR ALL ETERNITY...OR SO THE LEGEND GOES.



-IT IS SAID THAT THOSE WHO ARE PIERCED BY ITS EDGE WILL BE TRAPPED IN AN INTOXICATING GENJUTSU PLANE FOR ALL ETERNITY

So basically it is like toture..being trap forever...It is like time never ends. Similar to wat kurosotchi did to espada 8

[Forever_Melody]

So basically it is like toture..being trap forever...It is like time never ends. Similar to wat kurosotchi did to espada 8

Well yes, it is eternal, all 3 translations agree on that, but not all 3 agree it's eternal torture. I mean, the guy who said "blissful"(and Hisshou's translations are usually pretty accurate) would've implied that you'd be in a happy dream for all eternity >.>

It doesn't say anything about the flow of time or anything of the like, only that it's forever.

[Raizen]

Well yes, it is eternal, all 3 translations agree on that, but not all 3 agree it's eternal torture. I mean, the guy who said "blissful"(and Hisshou's translations are usually pretty accurate) would've implied that you'd be in a happy dream for all eternity >.>

It doesn't say anything about the flow of time or anything of the like, only that it's forever.
So wouldn't SF be better b/c don't u want ur opponent to suffer as much as possible??

[Forever_Melody]

So wouldn't SF be better b/c don't u want ur opponent to suffer as much as possible??

Well yes, from that point of view you would. That's what I was trying to say lol :p

Mind you, for pragmatists, it comes to the same because the opponent is dead. The only difference is the Shiki Fuuin guarantees the user's death while Susanoo, if cancelled early enough, does not.

like I said, it depends on who's looking at the picture and if they believe there is worse than death >.>

[Raizen]

Well yes, from that point of view you would. That's what I was trying to say lol :p

Mind you, for pragmatists, it comes to the same because the opponent is dead. The only difference is the Shiki Fuuin guarantees the user's death while Susanoo, if cancelled early enough, does not.

like I said, it depends on who's looking at the picture and if they believe there is worse than death >.>
Oh, i always misunderstand people :darn

[Delbi]

the sharingan cannot counter EVERY SINGLE jutsus. It gives u an edge but it does not warrant u being able to counter it. Countering something takes time and u have to have the innate ability. For example someone using doton, with sharingan u can see it but it won't help much if u don't have something to counter it with, like lightning element.


I never said it could counter every jutsu, but the Sharigan is supposed to be able to see every genjutsu depending on how strong the person with the Sharigan is. The Sharigan's speciality is seeing things for what they really are more or less, its able to slow down movements and anaylize them. It can see through the "illusion" that is a genjutsu.

The Frog Song is still a genjutsu, therefore by what we know the Sharigan can do, it should be able to see through it, at least a powerful Sharigan user like Itachi or Sasuke should be able too.

Saying that, the Frog Song is used on a person via sound, but the sound goes through the ear and effects the brain and nervous system, this tricking the other senses and giving the person a sensory overload, thus killing them. (This is my hypothesis on how it would work, anyway.)

The Sharigan, despite being an eye technique, allows the user some control over their own mind and others mind. We see this with Tsyukiyomi, and the ability to counter a technique that effects the mind directly. Saying this, I think a Sharigan user should be able to stop the Frog Song from affecting their brain, and thus their nervous system.

Again saying this, it would certainly not be easy.

[Forever_Melody]

Well the fact is that we don't know how the Sharigan does to actually counter genjutsu. most of the time, we just see a Sharingan user be unaffected by genjutsu >_> Seems to be some innate ability since even Kakashi can do it(aside from Tsukiyomi)

[ninjabot]

Magen: Kyouten Chiten is stated to be a Genjutsu...but it does'nt say it has to be activated, and it isn't ranked. But it's the ability to see through Genjutsu that's gained naturally with 3 tomoe. I think seeing through Genjutsu is auto, where as the reversal of Genjutsu takes the actual use of Kyouten Chiten by the Uchiha in question.

Could be wrong.

Also, about Susanoo, I think the ethereal body around Itachi actually does protect him, as when it was hit with Kirin it's flesh was gone and it was only a headless skeleton. If the kagami shield had blocked Kirin, the bolt would've been deflected mostly, due to the shields magical properties.

[Forever_Melody]

Well people were using Susanoo's ability to put up the shield in time to block Kirin as a means of proving its speed.

If indeed it was the body itself which block Kirin, then the body is able to be damaged and Itachi has to recover it himself using his chakra or life force(as when his life dwindled, the Susanoo went back to skeletal form). That means that if you have a jutsus damaging enough and say the Susanoo did not block it with the shield, then you could potentially wear Itachi out by making him heal the Susanoo no? Easier said than done, but it's still a possibility if the premise is true >.>

Also how does Itachi control what goes in and out of the avatar? I mean, we've seen it does block everything since wind and air are still able to get through(Itachi is still breathing and at one point his hair is swept by the wind). As=lso note at one point Sasuke is inside the Susanoo avatar as well. This would correlate with the fact that Itachi controls what enters or doesn't enter Susanoo, but I mean I doubt Itachi has the time and multitasking ability to filter out every dust and dirt particle the Susanoo encounters :s

[ninjabot]

I'm pretty sure it acts as a summon like Enma or Bunta in that while it does what the user wishes, it does so of it's own accord, with the additional ability to be directly controlled mentally. Itachi wasn't shown swinging his hand like Susanoo did when it cut down Orochimaru's Hydra Form. He didn't call out to it either.

Like, give it the mental order to attack, and it attacks however it sees fit. Give it a more direct order, and it does exactly what the user commands. All speculation ofcourse.

Couldn't help but notice that the avatar looked like it was crying whenever most of it's face disappeared. Hmm... a reflection of Itachi's mental state at that time maybe?

[Forever_Melody]

Well the nature of Susanoo isn't properly defined, even in the DB. I mean, some people have compared it to Shiki Fuuin and the Shinigami definitely did not do everything it was told to, it only did one specific thing. So one begs to question if Susanoo is the actual god or merely some representation of a god through a jutsu(ex: Aamterasu & Tsukiyomi aren't the actual Sun & Moon gods).

[niblack89]

It never stated that Susanoo waist your life force everyone assumed that because Itachi was dieing it was because he was dieing that susanoo was doing it remember when saskue told him that he was going to use Karin he said that they both were out of chakra so to use another MS jutsu especially his strongest MS jutsu he was fighting with his life energy^you brought up a sort of interesting question is MS the powers of a god or the powers borrowed from a god. We can consider the kyuubi a god cause he is the strongest tailed beast and mandara has the power to control him that could be said about other MS jutsus to be able to forceful use the powers of gods then EMS is probably the strongest eye jutsu because to use jutsus like Susanoo with no side effects is crazy and if Mandara is using his EMS jutsu to teleport him everywhere then he can spam it with the use of less chakra and it was stated the he and the uchia's had a high amount of chakra especially him. so imagine to be able to use susanoo's without the consequences. Nagito's eyes maybe stong but the EMS has the stongest jutsus and EMS has another jutsu uncounted for. Its MS with no weaknesses.

[Raizen]

It never stated that Susanoo waist your life force everyone assumed that because Itachi was dieing it was because he was dieing that susanoo was doing it remember when saskue told him that he was going to use Karin he said that they both were out of chakra so to use another MS jutsu especially his strongest MS jutsu he was fighting with his life energy^you brought up a sort of interesting question is MS the powers of a god or the powers borrowed from a god. We can consider the kyuubi a god cause he is the strongest tailed beast and mandara has the power to control him that could be said about other MS jutsus to be able to forceful use the powers of gods then EMS is probably the strongest eye jutsu because to use jutsus like Susanoo with no side effects is crazy and if Mandara is using his EMS jutsu to teleport him everywhere then he can spam it with the use of less chakra and it was stated the he and the uchia's had a high amount of chakra especially him. so imagine to be able to use susanoo's without the consequences. Nagito's eyes maybe stong but the EMS has the stongest jutsus and EMS has another jutsu uncounted for. Its MS with no weaknesses.
1- Read the DB or the posts b4 u
2- And susanoo can only block with the shield and the shield can't block all the directions.
3- the offense of susanoo is not very impressive. Any quick ninja would be able to dodge easily

[Kravmaga]

Why do I not see Narutos' harem jutsu up there on that list? However strong sexy jutsu was, the harem jutsu seemed to be invicible. There were only two people that ever resisted sexy jutsu, Jiraiya and Ebisu. Of course, Ebisu was KO'd by the harem jutsu. Kakashi seemed to be able to absorb some sexy jutsu damage such as the from Konohamaru's double sexy jutsu.

And yes, I am being serious.

I am aware of the precipice I am tethering near of but... wouldn't sai, sasuke and orochimaru be immune to that?

[Darth Executor]

3- the offense of susanoo is not very impressive. Any quick ninja would be able to dodge easily

Really? You can judge how fast it can swing its sword from static images?

[Forever_Melody]

Well Susanoo's speed is as fast as it was shown. It's not like we've seen anyone actually try and dodge Susanoo's sword >.> Everythign Susanoo has actually struck with its sword was either coming at it(ex: the hydra) or was still(ex: Orochimaru in the hydra's mouth).

The only "feat of speed" we can attribute to Susanoo is blocking Kirin, which happens in 1/1000th of a second and that's assuming that Susanoo raised its shield to block Kirin and that it wasn't the body which took the damage(because then the speed feat would be Itachi summoning Susanoo, not Susanoo moving its shield in time).

[Raizen]

Really? You can judge how fast it can swing its sword from static images?
Prove me otherwise.
The only speed feat of susanoo is the speed in which it appeared

[The Flash]

C'mon now Raizen.. that attack was fast. I hate to say this, cause I always enjoy reading your points. But don't let your hate for a character cloud your judgment.

Just before orochimaru was trying to finish his speech. Susano hit him fast, really fast. So i'm assuming by the way kishi wrote that chapter, Susanoo's attack was fast. Nuff said.

And Guys remember. The items that susano wields are literally supernatural(spirit-form). I'm assuming no one on narutverse can wield them because..once again.. they're supernatural items....Or else Itachi would've used the the two spirit form item(s) by himself.

-Sword of Totsuka -> Automatic KO hit. Sends you in a gengutsu dimension for eternity
-Yata's Mirror -> deflects every attack

susanoo is a life-draining, spirit form-like summon that can wield spirit items. Susanoo without the items is pretty much useless.

Sharingan can see everything in detail. So it could explain why itachi was able to find those special items.

Like what Zetsu said, "itachi is literally invincible"

p.s - And for the record.. I'm not a big fan of uchiha or sasuke. I'm all for the main character, Naruto. What seperates me from fanboys or fangirls... is that i'm neutral.I will acknowledge the strenghts and weaknesses from both sides.

However, I'd like to see Sasuke be good again. I honestly like all the characters... sasuke's attitude makes it hard to like him.

Good discussion involves not being biased...

[Forever_Melody]

If we loko back at Kishi's track record though, more often than not has he referred to something as supreme(unblockable, unavoidable, ultimate defense) in one way or another, just to turn around and have that statement overridden.

Therefore, I wouldn't be prone to believe Zetsu, a guy who doesn't really know the intricate details of Susanoo, when he said that Itachi si invincible within Susanoo.

There is probably some form of weak point or loophole somewhere. Kishi never implements a totally perfect and invincible jutsu.

[The Flash]

If we loko back at Kishi's track record though, more often than not has he referred to something as supreme(unblockable, unavoidable, ultimate defense) in one way or another, just to turn around and have that statement overridden.

Therefore, I wouldn't be prone to believe Zetsu, a guy who doesn't really know the intricate details of Susanoo, when he said that Itachi si invincible within Susanoo.

There is probably some form of weak point or loophole somewhere. Kishi never implements a totally perfect and invincible jutsu.

you bring a solid point em.... um yes you are right :p

[kkck]

If we loko back at Kishi's track record though, more often than not has he referred to something as supreme(unblockable, unavoidable, ultimate defense) in one way or another, just to turn around and have that statement overridden.

Therefore, I wouldn't be prone to believe Zetsu, a guy who doesn't really know the intricate details of Susanoo, when he said that Itachi si invincible within Susanoo.

There is probably some form of weak point or loophole somewhere. Kishi never implements a totally perfect and invincible jutsu.

I agree, every hax in narutoverse can be countered by another hax.

[Forever_Melody]

Well that's why Kishi leaves stuff open, so he gets a certain level of freedom of mouvement if he needs to.

He likes to hyperbol things in his manga, but one should take these with a grain of salt, especially when these comments from characters and especially from characters who don't actually use the said power(ex: Gai saying Chidori turns your hand into a sword that cuts anything (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/114/04/))

[Raizen]

@flash- what me me question the speed of susanoo was the fact that oro said that the sword would have no affect on him. The confidence he had in his body would make me think he didn't dodge b/c he didn't feel like he needs to not necessarily b/c the attack was fast. Oro's mind is sick like that. After all in his encounter with the 3rd he stabbed himself with his own kunai.
I actually like itachi and think that he is indeed strong, but not like what some people imply

[Phoenix946]

Like what Zetsu said, "itachi is literally invincible"


Where does he say that?

Are we allowed to discuss Chibaku Tensei yet? :p

[Forever_Melody]

Where does he say that?

He says it here (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/393/09/).

Mind you, as I've said, Zetsu is but an observer and does not know the intricate details of the Susanoo jutsu therefore his word is at best doubtful. It is however the only word we have on Susanoo.

And you'll be able to discuss Chibaku Tensei as of Monday :tem

[Phoenix946]

He says it here (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/393/09/).

Mind you, as I've said, Zetsu is but an observer and does not know the intricate details of the Susanoo jutsu therefore his word is at best doubtful. It is however the only word we have on Susanoo.

And you'll be able to discuss Chibaku Tensei as of Monday :tem

Ah thanks, I was wondering because I have this chapter from some other scanlation's group on my pc, that group also uses Hisshou's translation but for some reason they didn't include that particular sentence, even though it does state it in the translation. :confused

[zimbardo]

From what has been shown there are many techniques that have the potential to get through Susanoo. Instead of trying to directly attack Itachi (as Susanoo would inevitably block the attack) moves like Jiraiyas Earth Release: Swamp of the Underworld technique which target the ground beneatch Itachi would be more than adequate to deal with it. Susanoo has not shown to be able to grant the ability of flight so sinking Itachi into the ground, therefor stopping his movement, and waiting until he no longer has the chakra needed to maintain the technique. Gaara would be a perfect example of someone who could deal with Susanoo, as he could sink Itachi far underground and then apply the pressure until Itachi cannot maintain Susanoo any longer and so would be crushed.

[wildG]

From what has been shown there are many techniques that have the potential to get through Susanoo. Instead of trying to directly attack Itachi (as Susanoo would inevitably block the attack) moves like Jiraiyas Earth Release: Swamp of the Underworld technique which target the ground beneatch Itachi would be more than adequate to deal with it. Susanoo has not shown to be able to grant the ability of flight so sinking Itachi into the ground, therefor stopping his movement, and waiting until he no longer has the chakra needed to maintain the technique. Gaara would be a perfect example of someone who could deal with Susanoo, as he could sink Itachi far underground and then apply the pressure until Itachi cannot maintain Susanoo any longer and so would be crushed.

speculations.. we have no idea of how susanoo works..

[Forever_Melody]

Well speculation is all we have sometimes. I mean, Susanoo is barely delved into and knowing Kishi, he could easily override his "supremacy" statement as he has in the past and also, Kishi has never ever ever implemented a 100% perfect/invincible jutsu. Having a time limit on Susanoo(due to the life draining factor) IMO isn't really that debilitating a fact unless the time limit was that short(i.e. much shorter than Sage Mode for example).

[Raizen]

speculations.. we have no idea of how susanoo works..
Actually that speculation is right on. Susanoo can block whatever attack with the shield, but if the attack stems from the ground and sicks it susanoo can't possibly counter it

[Delbi]

Actually that speculation is right on. Susanoo can block whatever attack with the shield, but if the attack stems from the ground and sicks it susanoo can't possibly counter it

Couldn't it just point the the sheild down?

[Forever_Melody]

Can Susanoo pass its shield through its own body though? :blink I mean, this is where speculation comes in >.>

[Raizen]

Couldn't it just point the the sheild down?
For example, swamp of the underworld attack from the ground in all direction. The shield only protect one direction so technically no it can't just point the shield down

[Delbi]

For example, swamp of the underworld attack from the ground in all direction. The shield only protect one direction so technically no it can't just point the shield down

That's true, although, is the swamp big enough to engulf all of Sussano? Or would Sussano even be affected by it because of what Sussano is?

We really don't know enough about it, and probably won't find out because I think the technique died with Itachi. I mean the mirror could have an area effect protecting it from all sides, who knows, its an ancient spiritual item.

And simply by going what Zetsu said, someone who I'm guessing has been around for a while and has seen his fair share of techniques, if he said Itachi is "invincible" I'd think he was damn near close while inside Sussano.

The biggest weakness of the jutsu is it's time limit.

[ninjabot]

Attacks from beneath Susanoo wouldn't affect Susanoo, but rather the jutsu's summoner. I mean, Susanoo isn't standing ON the ground, it's hovering WITHIN it.

http://onemanga.com/Naruto/392/04-05/

And we know that Susanoo can interfere with physical objects around him, as he stabbed Orochimaru. It's not too implausible to think that Susanoo could lift it's summoner away from the danger, if not just absorb whatever is attempting to harm it's summoner (if it's a living being attacking from below, like a summon or a ninja).

[kkck]

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/393/06/
In the frame the shield is shown to have a half of it underground though.
And yet again here.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/393/09/

Considering it is a spiritual shield I doubt it will change its shape to get into such positions instead of simply having a half underground. That would pretty much protect itachi from SOTU and underground attacks(as long as he can see them coming, unless susano has some sort of radar which instantly blocks attacks).
Somehow it seems susanoo can both affect objects around him and go through them at will. That is pretty scary IMO.

[ophidial]

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/393/06/
In the frame the shield is shown to have a half of it underground though.
And yet again here.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/393/09/

Considering it is a spiritual shield I doubt it will change its shape to get into such positions instead of simply having a half underground. That would pretty much protect itachi from SOTU and underground attacks(as long as he can see them coming, unless susano has some sort of radar which instantly blocks attacks).
Somehow it seems susanoo can both affect objects around him and go through them at will. That is pretty scary IMO.

Yes, but would it really protect him from a fully powered SOTU?
The one jiraiya did against the snakes was a weakened one and
already massive. I assume that logically susanoo always surrounds
the user, thus to protected against that attack it needs to either be
able to float on it or levitate somehow and bring itachi along with it...

[Forever_Melody]

We know too little of Susanoo to really determine much sadly :darn

Btw, do we have proof to assert that Susanoo acts independently of Itachi or does Itachi control the Susanoo and its actions? I mean, this could (I guess) be a way of "countering" the Susanoo as you would basically be acting against the user and not the jutsu itself. In fact, many techniques are like this. You don't really counter the technique, but the user using it.

Anyways, Susanoo's time limit is the only explicit "weakness" in the jutsu, but the time limit itself is not commented upon(how long/short for example). All we know is that the longer Itachi keeps Susanoo active, the more life force it drains from him according to DB3. But then, at what rate does the Susanoo drain? I mean, some people have argued it's a short interval(ex: 5min) while others think it can go as long as days >_> IMO, if this is really the true one and only "weakness" in the Susanoo jutsu, the time interval should be significantly short so that it is really a debilitating factor to the use of the jutsu. If Itachi can keep it up for an hour, then IMO that's not really a "time limit" -_-;

Susanoo's biggest asset IMO is its defense for its offense is nothing that spectacular compared to other stuff we've seen in the series. Susanoo's defensive capacities are the jutsu's greatest strength as commented by Zetsu saying Itachi is "invincible"(as invincibility usually refers to the ability to evade harm) while in Susanoo.

Mind you, as I've said before, this isn't the first time the manga(through characters especially) has commented upon a power/jutsu being supreme in one sense or another to simply have it turned around a few chapters later >.>

I basically made this thread for us to discuss the implicit details of jutsus(i.e. those not directly given to us by the manga or DB on a silver plate), and more in particular the so-called "supreme" and "invincible" jutsus. I actually used the term in the thread title to see if some creative or analytical readers would be able to break this so-called title on some of these jutsus through speculative analysis or other such methods.

Albeit, seems Susanoo remains in the "it has no real weakness" category :s

[kkck]

Yes, but would it really protect him from a fully powered SOTU?
The one jiraiya did against the snakes was a weakened one and
already massive. I assume that logically susanoo always surrounds
the user, thus to protected against that attack it needs to either be
able to float on it or levitate somehow and bring itachi along with it...

WHat is a fully powered SOTU lol? Orochimarus hydra technique was said to be even bigger than manga, so if we compare, the shield and susanoo itself are pretty big too. Clearly SOTU can expand over a large are, but what would happen if it meets the shield is highly debatable. IMO there could be two scenarios:

1.- SOTU as a whole is stopped in its tracks the moment it meets the shield
2.- Depending on the size of SOTU, it can proceed normaly except directly behind behind the area the shield covers. In this situation if sotu is larger and deeper than the shield, itachi would have SOTU under him and at his side, so whether itachi actually falls to sotu will depend on the very ground itachi is standing on.

The way susanoo was portrayed in the manga and databook, it would probably do the first option but given that we dont have enough information, it really is hard to say. IMO it would sort of anticlimatic if the second option is the correct one given the way susanoo was portrayed lol.

[Raizen]

WHat is a fully powered SOTU lol? Orochimarus hydra technique was said to be even bigger than manga, so if we compare, the shield and susanoo itself are pretty big too. Clearly SOTU can expand over a large are, but what would happen if it meets the shield is highly debatable. IMO there could be two scenarios:

1.- SOTU as a whole is stopped in its tracks the moment it meets the shield
2.- Depending on the size of SOTU, it can proceed normaly except directly behind behind the area the shield covers. In this situation if sotu is larger and deeper than the shield, itachi would have SOTU under him and at his side, so whether itachi actually falls to sotu will depend on the very ground itachi is standing on.

The way susanoo was portrayed in the manga and databook, it would probably do the first option but given that we dont have enough information, it really is hard to say. IMO it would sort of anticlimatic if the second option is the correct one given the way susanoo was portrayed lol.
The snake that was caught by the SOTU of a poisoned J-man was pretty big in size, comparable to manda.
http://onemanga.com/Naruto/166/07/
Also, The hydra technqiue was never stated to be bigger than manda, it was just stated to be his best attack.

As for the links you post, so susanoo can black in one direction, so what?? SOTU attack from all direction. If susanoo is taken down, then the user is and it is shown that the user can't really attack when susanoo is on the field

[Phoenix946]

Albeit, seems Susanoo remains in the "it has no real weakness" category :s

Except that it drains you quite fast lol. Just get the hell away from it and wait while the user is dieing :tem

Anyway, Susanoo is an MS technique, but the items that Itachi's Susanoo had were gathered by Itachi as far as I understood Zetsu, they don't come with the technique. So to say Susanoo makes you invincible because it has that shield is flawed imo.

[Forever_Melody]

Except that it drains you quite fast lol. Just get the hell away from it and wait while the user is dieing :tem
Neither the manga nor DB3 state the exact speed at which Susanoo drains you nor the duration for which the jutsu can be maintained. People from both sides have argued that the time limit can be as short as a few minutes to as long as a few days >_>


Anyway, Susanoo is an MS technique, but the items that Itachi's Susanoo had were gathered by Itachi as far as I understood Zetsu, they don't come with the technique. So to say Susanoo makes you invincible because it has that shield is flawed imo.
Well they are part of Susanoo now so that's not the point. Whether or not Itachi added in his own personal touch to the jutsu is irrelevant since the jutsu is now what it is.

[Delbi]

Well they are part of Susanoo now so that's not the point. Whether or not Itachi added in his own personal touch to the jutsu is irrelevant since the jutsu is now what it is.

Exactly, its like when Naruto added the wind element to his Rasengan, all Itachi did was upgrade his jutsu to make it more powerful. When he summoned Sussano it had the sword and sheild already.

[kkck]

The snake that was caught by the SOTU of a poisoned J-man was pretty big in size, comparable to manda.
http://onemanga.com/Naruto/166/07/
Also, The hydra technqiue was never stated to be bigger than manda, it was just stated to be his best attack.

As for the links you post, so susanoo can black in one direction, so what?? SOTU attack from all direction. If susanoo is taken down, then the user is and it is shown that the user can't really attack when susanoo is on the field

I am pretty sure the databook said hydra was bigger than even manda, but I am too lazy to look for the link now....

Also, SOTU doesnt come from all directions, it comes from wherever jiraiya is. Guess jiraiya could control the size of sotu but that doesnt mean the attack comes from all directions.

Also, we dont have enough evidence to actually support or deny either one of the possibilities about what would happen if the shield meets susanoo. You could actually post more possibilities but they would be just as unsupported one way or the other lol.

[Onomatopoeia]

Neither the manga nor DB3 state the exact speed at which Susanoo drains you nor the duration for which the jutsu can be maintained. People from both sides have argued that the time limit can be as short as a few minutes to as long as a few days >_>


Well they are part of Susanoo now so that's not the point. Whether or not Itachi added in his own personal touch to the jutsu is irrelevant since the jutsu is now what it is.

Uhhh...what?

A few days?

Also I stick by my assumption that ST(a gravity based Jutsu) can beat Susanoo. Not necesarily by destroying it but by killing the user.

[En Yang Ji]

I think the 6 tails might be able to overpower the shield.

[Forever_Melody]

Uhhh...what?

A few days?
Yup lol, I've seen some people argue that since we have no info, it isn't false to assume Itachi can keep the thing going for a whole fight.


Also I stick by my assumption that ST(a gravity based Jutsu) can beat Susanoo. Not necesarily by destroying it but by killing the user.
I'd assume space/time ninjutsu would work as well. The shield blocks anything incoming to it, not anything deviating around it or through it.

For example, Madara or Minato should be able to teleport inside the Susanoo.

[Onomatopoeia]

Yup lol, I've seen some people argue that since we have no info, it isn't false to assume Itachi can keep the thing going for a whole fight.


I'd assume space/time ninjutsu would work as well. The shield blocks anything incoming to it, not anything deviating around it or through it.

For example, Madara or Minato should be able to teleport inside the Susanoo.
Wow, just wow.

Yeah space/time Ninjutsu should work too though I wish we had more specifics on stuff like that.

[wildG]

Not really.. maybe only madara but not minato.. minato was throwing his kunai to teleport around.. and susanoo would repel the kunai

[Forever_Melody]

Not really.. maybe only madara but not minato.. minato was throwing his kunai to teleport around.. and susanoo would repel the kunai

Well we meant the action of teleportation itself, not the jutsu as a whole. As in, if Itachi had a symbol on his foot like that other rock-nin, then Minato might be able to teleport inside. Obviously setting up Hiraishin with Susanoo already active would be nigh-impossible though :s

[The Flash]

Not really.. maybe only madara but not minato.. minato was throwing his kunai to teleport around.. and susanoo would repel the kunai

Thought of the possibility of minato placing a tag on Itachi before itachi uses susanoo

Minato is slick that way.

[Delbi]

I'd just like to point out the the Hirashin is not a teleportation jutsu.

Shino notes that Madara doesn't teleport, because teleportation is just high speed movement.

Then Kakashi goes on to say that Madara's Space Time Jutsu surpasses that of the Fourth's. Not that it's important or anything, but Madara and Minato literally move out of one dimension to another. That's at least how I understand space/time physics/logic to work.

It's not important or anything, but I'd figure I'd mention it.

[Forever_Melody]

Yeah I use teleportation not in the same sense as the Narutoverse because in the manga, Shunshin would be what the magna defines as "teleportation" i.e. high speed mouvement. Hiraishin & Madara's jutsu are space/time ninjutsu in that they both bend space in some manner to allow the user to bypass some distance.

[Delbi]

Yeah I use teleportation not in the same sense as the Narutoverse because in the manga, Shunshin would be what the magna defines as "teleportation" i.e. high speed mouvement. Hiraishin & Madara's jutsu are space/time ninjutsu in that they both bend space in some manner to allow the user to bypass some distance.

I'm still interested in how these space time jutsu work. Granted if Madara's has to do with his EMS, its explained as HAX, but I hope we have an explanation at some point in time of how the Hirashin works.

[The Flash]

we've somehow grasped a little knowledge how Hiraishin might work through Naruto's "summon my clones/reverse summoning" technique. It is stated in the Data books by Kishimoto that Hiraishin is similar to a reverse-summoning technique.

It'd be treat to see Minato passing Naruto his own techniques.

One can only dream *sigh*

[thatwouldbeawesome]

Ok, I maybe missed it. But I want to bring an obvious one to the table.
KAGE BUNSHIN!

It tanks. It makes high level techniques manageable. It massively shrinks training arcs.

I will admit Kage bunshin has a stated drawback, thus is not technically invincible, but neither is hiraishin, if we are to believe... The creator. Recently. Just trying to bring the ultimate spam a little love!

Which brings me to my next point.

SUBSTITUTION JUTSU
Naruto would never, ever need take damage if his "original" self held a magical Konoha log. Heck, should just make some lumberjack-Naruto's with henge, fireman chain that junk in.That my friends, is an invincible technique, lol.


I'd just like to point out the the Hirashin is not a teleportation jutsu.

Shino notes that Madara doesn't teleport, because teleportation is just high speed movement.


Shino is commenting on Madara's exceptional ability. In his (Shino's) experience there is no teleportation, just high speed movement (in the manga I believe referred to as shunshin?). The beetles can follow high-speed movement. He is witnessing and noting the difference.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/395/09/
It seems to me that on the onemanga version 'teleportation' would have been better left untranslated (if the word was shunshin) as it refers to the established, in-universe understanding of the word (ie: what the reader and ninja's of Shino's level have witnessed).

Madara totally teleported. It would be difficult to interact with a theoretical plane without doing so ;)

[wildG]

Thought of the possibility of minato placing a tag on Itachi before itachi uses susanoo

Minato is slick that way.

thats highly impossible... cause i don't see the reason why itachi wouldn't know minato's techniques if minato was knowing itachis... and just to think of that.. everyone knows minato's famous technique is hiraishin even and since itachi has prooved to be a very intelligent person i'd rather see him taking distance from this kunai/tag. In my mind is impossible for minato to fool itachi since his techniques are so famous unlike itachis.. itachi has the upper hand...


also

Delbi@ there was nowhere stated that his space/time ninjutsu is an EMS ability... that remains to be seen

[Shaunlim]

thats highly impossible... cause i don't see the reason why itachi wouldn't know minato's techniques if minato was knowing itachis... and just to think of that.. everyone knows minato's famous technique is hiraishin even and since itachi has prooved to be a very intelligent person i'd rather see him taking distance from this kunai/tag. In my mind is impossible for minato to fool itachi since his techniques are so famous unlike itachis.. itachi has the upper hand...


also

Delbi@ there was nowhere stated that his space/time ninjutsu is an EMS ability... that remains to be seen

That's untrue actually since people only know Yondy as the yellow flash. As in him being very fast. Nothing about his Hiraishin. Besides, it's not whether Minato knows about Susano'o or not. But him simply having a means to by pass it.

[Forever_Melody]

We're talking hypothetically here, not in an actual situation -_-;. We're saying assuming all the conditions were correct, that Hiraishin, in theory, might be able to bypass Susanoo. This isn't a "Minato vs Itachi", but simply a question of whether or not Hiraishin can bypass Susanoo if it is able to be executed. It's like when I said "FRS vs Kirin" and someone replied "yeah but Naruto might not let Sasuke execute Kirin". That's not the point lol :p

Btw the general population is unaware of Hiraishin. Even when Minato first used it, his own student(Rin), thought it was just a really really fast Shunshin.

[vintagemistakes]

Not to change the subject... but shouldn't "Pain" be considered a invincible jutsu?

It's not all that dissimilar from how Sasori uses his puppets... so one could categorize it as a jutsu, right?

And if so, Jiraiya did say that if you didn't know "the secret", it would be virtually impossible to defeat. Plus, from what we've seen - its still a beast of a jutsu. Even if you know the secret - it still doesn't guarantee success. One would still have to figure out how many puppets there are, what they're capable of, and how to defeat them before you even get a opportunity to search for the puppetteer. So, just the multitude of things you have to go through alone... puts it above a good number of jutsu...

[Raizen]

I am pretty sure the databook said hydra was bigger than even manda, but I am too lazy to look for the link now....

Also, SOTU doesnt come from all directions, it comes from wherever jiraiya is. Guess jiraiya could control the size of sotu but that doesnt mean the attack comes from all directions.

Also, we dont have enough evidence to actually support or deny either one of the possibilities about what would happen if the shield meets susanoo. You could actually post more possibilities but they would be just as unsupported one way or the other lol.
I don't really understand your point but what I meant was sotu is basically an attack that surround u from all direction. Think of a lake. Your going to drown in it.But SOTU is denser so it makes you move sluggish or even stop all movements.
As for the size, if he can do that while drugged, and unable to do a proper summoning, then in healthy state the size would be exponentially bigger

[Delbi]

We're talking hypothetically here, not in an actual situation -_-;. We're saying assuming all the conditions were correct, that Hiraishin, in theory, might be able to bypass Susanoo. This isn't a "Minato vs Itachi", but simply a question of whether or not Hiraishin can bypass Susanoo if it is able to be executed. It's like when I said "FRS vs Kirin" and someone replied "yeah but Naruto might not let Sasuke execute Kirin". That's not the point lol :p


Well in response to that, I'd say a jutsu's strength also relies in how fast it can be formed and how it is used.

Hirashin isn't invincible because Minato can only transfer himself to a kunai, he can't go anywhere else. That presents a large problem for Minato as he needs others to spread the kunai around, and if he were fighting a singular person, all he'd have to do is stay away from the kunai.

Kirin in itself, takes time to use because if their aren't thunderclouds present you need to make them.

FRS requires two shadow clones to be made, and its only truly effective if Naruto is already in Sage Mode.

Sussano, works instantly from what we have seen, afterall it was able to stop Kirin which moves at incredible speed. It's draw back however is that it kills you while you use it.

SOTU, is a ground jutsu, and thus engulfs the ground. To be used effectivly the jutsu needs to engulf a lot of ground, which may make the user of the jutsu within its effect. Not to mention, its an earth jutsu I'm guessing, so whats to say someone with the Lighnting affinity can't simply be uneffected by it. This jutsu is also pointless if the ninja that it is being used against can fly in some way.

Shinra Tensei, has a five second interval, and when used at its most powerful form, leaves Deva Defenseless.

Fact is, there are no invincible jutsu, there are no absolutes in this manga. Things can be strong, but all jutsu have drawbacks, and have weaknesses.

Also as Kakashi notes, "The bigger the jutsu, the bigger the risk."

[jdw]

Hirashin isn't invincible because Minato can only transfer himself to a kunai, he can't go anywhere else. That presents a large problem for Minato as he needs others to spread the kunai around, and if he were fighting a singular person, all he'd have to do is stay away from the kunai.

This seems at odds with Minato's actions. It seems he can transfer himself anywhere he places a tag: http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/240/09/

[Delbi]

This seems at odds with Minato's actions. It seems he can transfer himself anywhere he places a tag: http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/240/09/

True, but he marks his kunai with the tag, and his kunai would be what he is using to transfer himself in battle. It's be hard for him to tag his opponents and let the tag stay their.

[M3J]

Not exactly that hard. The opponents would probably be too busy trying to beat Minato to pay attention to a minor touch. And for all we know, the tag can't be removed, not easily at least.

[jdw]

Not exactly that hard. The opponents would probably be too busy trying to beat Minato to pay attention to a minor touch. And for all we know, the tag can't be removed, not easily at least.

Or he can just handprint tags all around the battle zone as the fight progresses.

[Reenie]

or he could just use tajuu kage bunshin no shuriken on his tagged kunai like Sandaime did against Orochimaru.

[Raizen]

Well in response to that, I'd say a jutsu's strength also relies in how fast it can be formed and how it is used.

Hirashin isn't invincible because Minato can only transfer himself to a kunai, he can't go anywhere else. That presents a large problem for Minato as he needs others to spread the kunai around, and if he were fighting a singular person, all he'd have to do is stay away from the kunai.
it is true that he can only go to the kunai but the thing is the opponent can't keep track of both the seals and the speedy minato. Not only that he can teleport from one kunai to the other in a split of a second. That is how he was able to take out over 50 rock nins in a second. No ninja can counter that type of speed or attack. And he doesn't need others to spread the kunai, he can just use weapon techniques like sasuke, throwing them all.


Sussano, works instantly from what we have seen, afterall it was able to stop Kirin which moves at incredible speed. It's draw back however is that it kills you while you use it.
Susanoo can only be summoned oncee the user has used BOTH amaretsu and tsukyomi. So if he hasn't done the requirement it can't be used


SOTU, is a ground jutsu, and thus engulfs the ground. To be used effectivly the jutsu needs to engulf a lot of ground, which may make the user of the jutsu within its effect. Not to mention, its an earth jutsu I'm guessing, so whats to say someone with the Lighnting affinity can't simply be uneffected by it. This jutsu is also pointless if the ninja that it is being used against can fly in some way.
Once the tecnhique engulfs you u are stuck. u can't just fly out as seen with pein.
Also, the technique is not actual doton but a watery form so i doubt raiton can negate its effect. SOTu is like quick sand so if ur caught ur screwed pretty much 95% of the time


Fact is, there are no invincible jutsu, there are no absolutes in this manga. Things can be strong, but all jutsu have drawbacks, and have weaknesses.

Also as Kakashi notes, "The bigger the jutsu, the bigger the risk."
i totally agreee with u here :D

[Delbi]

it is true that he can only go to the kunai but the thing is the opponent can't keep track of both the seals and the speedy minato. Not only that he can teleport from one kunai to the other in a split of a second. That is how he was able to take out over 50 rock nins in a second. No ninja can counter that type of speed or attack. And he doesn't need others to spread the kunai, he can just use weapon techniques like sasuke, throwing them all.

True, but what if he's facing someone, say like his son? Naruto can create thousands of copies of himself, and thus make the fight a Pain in the ass, even for Minato.

My point is that while he can create a battlefield full of kunai, if his enemy is very fast, or even has shushin, he can get out of the proximity of the kunai and attack Minato from a distance, or draw him away from his kunai. I mean its not like he has an unlimited number of thing, although I'd say he probably has a lot.



Susanoo can only be summoned oncee the user has used BOTH amaretsu and tsukyomi. So if he hasn't done the requirement it can't be used

Eh, we have no proof of that, granted the user has to unlock both Tsyuikyomi and Ameratsu first, but by no means should he need to use both before he could use Sussano. I mean, can you even cast Tsyuikiyomi if no one is looking into your eyes? The jutsu has been used once, and it was a last resort for Itachi. He didn't even think he had to use it until Sasuke nearly killed him with Kirin.



Once the tecnhique engulfs you u are stuck. u can't just fly out as seen with pein.
Also, the technique is not actual doton but a watery form so i doubt raiton can negate its effect. SOTu is like quick sand so if ur caught ur screwed pretty much 95% of the time


Well in terms of flying I'm saying that prior to, or as the jutsu is formed the person it's being used on takes flight or already is flying.

As for Raiton effecting it, we can't really know for sure, but if it is made of earth in some fashion or another, it does have a weakness to Raiton. And even though it has water in it, we have seen before via Yamato's Moukton, that even a fusion between Earth and Water is weak against lightning.

In any event I was just attempting to prove that no jutsu is "invicible" the situations i've talked about are all hypothetical, in actuality, to defeat these type of jutsu you would need something as powerful, if not much more powerful to do so, or you would have to know the exact weaknesses of the jutsu so you could defeat them.

[Raizen]

True, but what if he's facing someone, say like his son? Naruto can create thousands of copies of himself, and thus make the fight a Pain in the ass, even for Minato.

My point is that while he can create a battlefield full of kunai, if his enemy is very fast, or even has shushin, he can get out of the proximity of the kunai and attack Minato from a distance, or draw him away from his kunai. I mean its not like he has an unlimited number of thing, although I'd be he as a lot.
Minato is w/o a doubt one of the smartest ninja EVER. if he is fighting someone, most likely he will set kunais around the environment as the fight goes on. Most ninjas that knows about Minato's hiraishin are either dead or they are his student.
And as for reacting, u are forgetting he appeared from the kunais to take out an army so fast that the leaf nin said they would miss it if they blinked. So if u are caught he can can u. If u manage to get away he can throw a kunai follwing u, either u get killed by the kunai or by Minato who teleport to it. What make hiraishin dangerous is no ninja has the ability to keep dodging his speedy hiraishin


Eh, we have no proof of that, granted the user has to unlock both Tsyuikyomi and Ameratsu first, but by no means should he need to use both before he could use Sussano. I mean, can you even cast Tsyuikiyomi if no one is looking into your eyes? The jutsu has been used once, and it was a last resort for Itachi. He didn't even think he had to use it until Sasuke nearly killed him with Kirin.
In the DB it was stated susanoo is unlocked when the other 2 techniques are utilized. ur right, he probably didn't think he need susanoo but as luck would have it he used both MS techniqes maybe to show sasuke, so requirement filled.


Well in terms of flying I'm saying that prior to, or as the jutsu is formed the person it's being used on takes flight or already is flying.

As for Raiton effecting it, we can't really know for sure, but if it is made of earth in some fashion or another, it does have a weakness to Raiton. And even though it has water in it, we have seen before via Yamato's Moukton, that even a fusion between Earth and Water is weak against lightning.
1- If the opponent is not on the gorund why would u use it?? :blink
2- SOTU is not pure earht, it is combined with water. It is like a mix. How exactly do u see raiton canceling it??

[Forever_Melody]

Well I know there are no "invincible" jutsus, in my 1st post and that every jutsu had a weakness.

My point was to try and argue about the flaws and weaknesses of these jutsus outside the versus threads instead of inside because those tend to lose the initial point. *points at all the Amaterasu conversations* :oh

The thing was that if you wanted to provide counters or weaknesses not explicitly stated in the manga or DB, this would be the place to argue it.

A good example is the current debate on whether or not SotU would work upon a Susanoo user.

[En Yang Ji]

Now that I think about, SOTU is almost as problematic as Amateratsu. Both are almost impossible to avoid.

[Forever_Melody]

Well arguably, we haven't ever seen anyone not get hit by SotU, but the jutsu hasn't proved itself to be deadly/fatal like Amaterasu. It's mostly used as a support jutsu to sink in people and hold them off.

[En Yang Ji]

That's true, but SOTU is deadly in its own right. If Jiraiya chose to he could drown who's ever caught, or use the opportunity to use another deadly jutsu to kill the opponent.

[SharinganItachi]

Did We Speak of Hidan's jutsu:
Strength:Can kill the opponent
Weakness:Needs user's blood and opponent's blood. If user mortal better not to use.

[~Joshua~]

-Chidori
-chakra is needed though not exponential but still a rather large amount
-sharingan is needed
-Kawamiri as well(unlikely but possible)

What would lead you to believe Chidori needs Sharingan? And what do you mean by substitution?

[jdw]

What would lead you to believe Chidori needs Sharingan? And what do you mean by substitution?

The 4th told Kakashi never to use it again because it exposes the user to the counter of the target. However, we know the sharingan can semi-predict movement, so that problems is removed for sharingan users who can semi-predict counters of enemies (making it a complete jutsu).
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/240/14/

Also, I think that Kakashi (or someone else) might have said something as well but I don't feel like hunting down the chapter.

[Forever_Melody]

yeah the regular Chidori is a pretty easily counter-able move if you don't have the Sharingan to help you see the opponent.

Also, there is the issue of tunnel vision as you go faster(which funnily, neither Lee or Gai seemed to have experienced this to a problematic point despite the huge speeds they can achieve in Gates mode).

[~Joshua~]

The 4th told Kakashi never to use it again because it exposes the user to the counter of the target. However, we know the sharingan can semi-predict movement, so that problems is removed for sharingan users who can semi-predict counters of enemies (making it a complete jutsu).
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/240/14/

Also, I think that Kakashi (or someone else) might have said something as well but I don't feel like hunting down the chapter.

I think that would only apply to if you are using Chidori and going at a high speed. Chidori has been used when Sasuke is standing still but I see where you are coming from.

[Forever_Melody]

I think that would only apply to if you are using Chidori and going at a high speed. Chidori has been used when Sasuke is standing still but I see where you are coming from.

The original Chidori/Raikiri required the Sharingan becasue it was a straightforward attack, but yes, Sasuke & Kakashi's variations of it have negated the need for the Sharingan to make them effective.

[jdw]

I think that would only apply to if you are using Chidori and going at a high speed. Chidori has been used when Sasuke is standing still but I see where you are coming from.

Where Yondaime is coming from!

It can be used standing still but it is usually used in motion and is probably most likely to land a fatal blow on an opponent in that fashion. Hitting a limp naruto hanging in the air purposely not fighting back is so easy a caveman could do it.

[Forever_Melody]

Chidori's strength is partly due to the speed of the thrust though. This was explained when it was first used by Sasuke. Running very fast and thrusting the jutsu is what gives it the ability to puncture just about anything. Without the huge momentum, it isn't as effective apparently. Mind you, this isn't as much an issue with the new Chidori variations now present in the manga.

Now, we just need Fuuton Rasengan variations other than FRS >.>

[~Joshua~]

BTW, what is SOTU? Is it the jutus Jiraiya used on King Manda?

[jdw]

BTW, what is SOTU? Is it the jutus Jiraiya used on King Manda?

Yeah, Swamp of the undeworld.
[hr]

Chidori's strength is partly due to the speed of the thrust though. This was explained when it was first used by Sasuke. Running very fast and thrusting the jutsu is what gives it the ability to puncture just about anything. Without the huge momentum, it isn't as effective apparently. Mind you, this isn't as much an issue with the new Chidori variations now present in the manga.

Now, we just need Fuuton Rasengan variations other than FRS >.>

I want RasenShinraTensei. That would be so damn awesome.It could push things away while slicing then up.

[~Joshua~]

Yeah, Swamp of the undeworld.
<hr noshade size="1">


I want RasenShinraTensei. That would be so damn awesome.It could push things away while slicing then up.

If you want a jutsu that pushes away while slices go learn some A/S rank Wind Jutsus. :D

[Weapon_X]

Wouldn't the Dead Demon Consuming Seal (Shiki Fujin) also be counted as a Invincible Jutsu? Technically, it has kept away the greatest threat in Narutoverse: The kyuubi and still it's in effect.

The Third would have sealed away Oro as well but was too weak so just sealed his arms. I know that it requires self sacrifice but most "Invincible" jutsus require a lot of draw backs to use it anyway. This jutsu is instant death for both the enemy and the user.

[Forever_Melody]

The Shiki Fuuin is ultimate in the sense that it is one of 2 jutsus which actually does things worse than death >.> The other is Susanoo, but its repercussions are supposedly positive for the person("blissful" genjutsu vs eternal torment :eyeroll)

[Weapon_X]

So..I am right then lol. Compared to any other "Invincible "Jutsu, this Jutsu would come at the top. This jutsu cannot be avoided once it's made contact with the enemy. Even if it requires self sacrifice, it can seal away ANYTHING. Meaning the ultimate jutsu I guess. ^_^

[jdw]

So..I am right then lol. Compared to any other "Invincible "Jutsu, this Jutsu would come at the top. This jutsu cannot be avoided once it's made contact with the enemy. Even if it requires self sacrifice, it can seal away ANYTHING. Meaning the ultimate jutsu I guess. ^_^

The way the 3rd executed it, all you had to do was avoid being grabbed (if memory serves me). Granted, a nin may not know when someone is using it to know that they need to avoid being grabbed, but it looks like nins tend to avoid getting grabbed as battle instinct anyway. I am not sure how Minato used it on Kyuubi.

[Weapon_X]

The way the 3rd executed it, all you had to do was avoid being grabbed (if memory serves me). Granted, a nin may not know when someone is using it to know that they need to avoid being grabbed, but it looks like nins tend to avoid getting grabbed as battle instinct anyway. I am not sure how Minato used it on Kyuubi.

Exactly, this is a close range Jutsu. But once the enemy is grabbed, it's finished. And only 2 people can use this jutsu, the 3rd and the 4th, two top elite Shinobi who I am sure would be able to grab an opponent. Don't know how the hell the 4th grabbed the kyuubi, probably used a toad summon and held the Kyuubi? Don't know but they are the only people in the Narutoverse who can use it.

Also I don't think anyone else could learn it either because there isn't anyone to teach the Jutsu, unless the 3rd and the 4th come back from the dead. :|

[Forever_Melody]

Well arguably, all "ultimate jutsus" are basically a nearly done and sealed deal IF they connect. There are ways of course to avoid their imminent powers.

For Amaterasu, Orochimaru's Kawarimi allowed you to escape even after being hit.

For C4 Garuda, running a current through your body can cancel the bombs.

Most jutsus can be recovered from even if the recovery options are very very slim and selective. In the case of Shiki Fuuin, if somehow the user died before you, the jutsu would be unable to complete itself as shown by Sandaime.

[Weapon_X]

But, most of the other "Invincible" Jutsus require a lot of chakra to maintain it and then the character drops unconcious after using it due to chakra drain.

With Shiki Fuuin, it's different. If you use that jutsu at the beginning, it's done for. You don't have to worry about chakra or anything like that, just have to wait until the ritual is finished and then both of you are dead (Did I say something wrong here? :\)

[jdw]

The risk for it is too great. You only get one shot (when the jutsu ends completely), no matter how much chakra you have because you will end up dead (or with some tiny bit of chakra trapped in a seal). In 99% of fights I'd rather have kirin, amaterasu, FRS, or Susanoo.

[Forever_Melody]

Well as said, Shiki Fuuin's price is basically the death of the user. TO sue Shiki Fuuin in battle means you know you have no other option usually as few are the people who want to die that bad against anyone >.>

[Weapon_X]

But the point I'm trying to make it that if the enemy is very deadly and the user knows he can be a threat, like Oro with his immortalitiy etc. Any jutsus won't work on him apart from sealing jutsus because he just won't die.

Just like the Kyuubi. Nothing can destroy the kyuubi. The greatest threat and the strongest character in Naruto. The only way to get rid of it is to use Shiki Fuuin, because anything else won't just work on him. It would make this as the ultimate jutsu with the ultimate sacrifice, the power to take the enemie's life away as well as your own. Ultimate jutsu.

[~Joshua~]

But the point I'm trying to make it that if the enemy is very deadly and the user knows he can be a threat, like Oro with his immortalitiy etc. Any jutsus won't work on him apart from sealing jutsus because he just won't die.

Just like the Kyuubi. Nothing can destroy the kyuubi. The greatest threat and the strongest character in Naruto. The only way to get rid of it is to use Shiki Fuuin, because anything else won't just work on him. It would make this as the ultimate jutsu with the ultimate sacrifice, the power to take the enemie's life away as well as your own. Ultimate jutsu.

That would depend on the amount of strength of the user. Sarutobi was only able to seal away the arms of Orochimaru, and lost his life doing that. :blink Taking away the use of one's arms doesn't seem like something to die for. Especially when dealing with Orochimaru who can use so many other types of jutsu without forming handseals.

[Smokes]

But, most of the other "Invincible" Jutsus require a lot of chakra to maintain it and then the character drops unconcious after using it due to chakra drain.

With Shiki Fuuin, it's different. If you use that jutsu at the beginning, it's done for. You don't have to worry about chakra or anything like that, just have to wait until the ritual is finished and then both of you are dead (Did I say something wrong here? :\)

It's not really that simple, I think. We don't really know enough about most of the invincible jutsu to decide which one is the absolute best. Shiki Fuuin takes a while to implement. It seems the death god has a little ritual he does, in lieu of an itadkimasu, before he's ready to eat souls and he really doesn't care how much of a hurry you happen to be in. Plus, with someone like Negato using Pain, it would be simple suicide, and Negato would be free to go back and reload with six more bodies....and that's if you could possibly ever get close enough to grab the bodies and use the jutsu with him spamming shinra tensei.
Then there's something like susanoo that Itachi equiped with the sword of totsuka and yata's mirror. Hell, we don't even really know what susanoo is. And could the spiritual weapons be used alone? I mean, they don't really have a true form. Oro was looking for the sword and I guess he figured he could use it alone. So possibly, yata's mirror alone could turn back that attack. And the sword of totsuka is istant win....plus, as a bonus, you get to live. It will be great if we get more spesifics. But besides talking about flaws and strengths based on what we know, I don't think we can just crown one technique the most invincible.

[ornis]

Smokes,

Appears that you assume each of Pain's six bodies possesses a soul to cover Shiki Fuujin's cost. We need canonical grounds for this idea. The manga shows that Pain, in all his bodies, is a chakra-controlled (CC), once-living organism, like a radio-controlled, multi-bodied robot. Flatly, Pain is a bunch of undead CC puppets. Observing the manga's up to date display of Pain's functions, attributes, and abilities, we further find that this total canvas of Pain excludes "soul-containing" from the picture.

Revisiting a workable Shiki Fuujin, we know what the technique requires:

1 an able-bodied caster (ninja able to make necessary seals)
2 a living target
3 their souls

A ninja unfamiliar with Nagato's puppetery may try to use Shiki Fuujin on a Pain puppet's nothingness. But completing Shiki Fuujin on a soulless body isn't undoubtedly possible. Nagato's Pain squad might avoid confronting puppet suicide if any encounter a Shiki Fuujin attack.
[hr]
Puppets may bear Shiki Fuujin immunity. They have no souls.

...

Someone may target their chakra.

...

The way whereby Shiki Fuujin helps other seals consume and divide Kyuubi's chakra is a bit hard to call reproducible in terms of the skill's basic use... ninja use Shiki Fuujin by itself to take souls from opponents at the price of their lives. Being a chakra stealer is not Shiki Fuujin's focus.

[jdw]

That would depend on the amount of strength of the user. Sarutobi was only able to seal away the arms of Orochimaru, and lost his life doing that. :blink Taking away the use of one's arms doesn't seem like something to die for. Especially when dealing with Orochimaru who can use so many other types of jutsu without forming handseals.

He didn't do it thinking he was going to take only his arms. Sarutobi did it thinking he would completely kill Oro and happened to find out after that he couldn't. The thing is, how do you test this jutsu beforehand to make sure you know exactly what you are capable of? I don't know if you can. Sarutobi put it all on the line and did nod kill Oro, but he severely impaired him and prevented the destruction of Konoha.

[Delbi]

He didn't do it thinking he was going to take only his arms. Sarutobi did it thinking he would completely kill Oro and happened to find out after that he couldn't. The thing is, how do you test this jutsu beforehand to make sure you know exactly what you are capable of? I don't know if you can. Sarutobi put it all on the line and did nod kill Oro, but he severely impaired him and prevented the destruction of Konoha.

The only reason the jutsu failed was because Sarturobi was already dying. Orochimaru impaled him from behind with his sword, and since Sarturobi's lifeforce was fading, he couldn't complete the jutsu because of lack of chakra and becuase he literally died before it was complete.

Mind you, he already split his chakra three ways prior to that and sealed up the two Hokages. It's likely that if he would have went after Orochimaru first, Orochimaru would have died.

[Smokes]

Smokes,

Appears that you assume each of Pain's six bodies possesses a soul to cover Shiki Fuujin's cost. We need canonical grounds for this idea. The manga shows that Pain, in all his bodies, is a chakra-controlled (CC), once-living organism, like a radio-controlled, multi-bodied robot. Flatly, Pain is a bunch of undead CC puppets. Observing the manga's up to date display of Pain's functions, attributes, and abilities, we further find that this total canvas of Pain excludes "soul-containing" from the picture.

Revisiting a workable Shiki Fuujin, we know what the technique requires:

1 an able-bodied caster (ninja able to make necessary seals)
2 a living target
3 their souls

A ninja unfamiliar with Nagato's puppetery may try to use Shiki Fuujin on a Pain puppet's nothingness. But completing Shiki Fuujin on a soulless body isn't undoubtedly possible. Nagato's Pain squad might avoid confronting puppet suicide if any encounter a Shiki Fuujin attack.

Puppets may bear Shiki Fuujin immunity. They have no souls.

...

Someone may target their chakra.

...

The way whereby Shiki Fuujin helps other seals consume and divide Kyuubi's chakra is a bit hard to call reproducible in terms of the skill's basic use... ninja use Shiki Fuujin by itself to take souls from opponents at the price of their lives. Being a chakra stealer is not Shiki Fuujin's focus.

I did make that assumption about the souls. I could be wrong, but there is absolutely nothing that necessarily excludes that as a possibility. He recycles disabled bodies through a soul eating (containing?) summon. Absent canonical grounds, all I can do is assume. So, with that ritual, I made that assumption. I can't say for a fact that they do have souls, but I don't think it's an off-the-wall assumption.

[ameya730]

i think yondaime did not teach the sandaime the jutsu completely what the sandaime used was an incomplete version of the jutsu because of which he had to physically touch orochimaru in order to complete the contract and start the process of sealing both their souls in the death god

the reason i think this is because i just cant imagine that yondaime would have actually touched the kyubii and then started the jutsu that would have been impossible people find kyubii chakra to be hurtful even at a distance touching holding him while in nine tails form would be impossible unless a mokuten user could hold the kyubii down ???

hmmm i wonder how old yamato is??:)

[Raizen]

Yeah, the one the 3rd used was no where as complicated as the 4th. The 4th not only captured the fox, he split the fox's chakra precisely, then he sealed into his son, bypassing the rule that u need to seal it into the shinigami. Then he also used it on himself, sealing himself in his son too

I say SF is definitely the strognest technique out there

[Weapon_X]

i think yondaime did not teach the sandaime the jutsu completely what the sandaime used was an incomplete version of the jutsu because of which he had to physically touch orochimaru in order to complete the contract and start the process of sealing both their souls in the death god

the reason i think this is because i just cant imagine that yondaime would have actually touched the kyubii and then started the jutsu that would have been impossible people find kyubii chakra to be hurtful even at a distance touching holding him while in nine tails form would be impossible unless a mokuten user could hold the kyubii down ???

hmmm i wonder how old yamato is??:)

I agree with that. Yondaime's Shiki Fuuin was used when he is standing on top of Bunta's head. Guess he had found a way to use it without making contact with the opponent. While Hiruzen had a lesser version and he needed to make contact or Yondaime's could be a long range version of a Shiki Fuuin and Hiruzen's could be a short range.

I just found out another theory as to why this is the ultimate jutsu. Hiruzen used his 2 Shadow Clones to seal away Hashirama's and Tobirama's souls away, and yet he was still alive. His real body was still alive. Because technically the death god consumed the two Hokage's souls in addition to the souls of the shadow clones.

So let's say if Hiruzen had lots of chakra and had used 3 Shadow Clones. 2 to seal away the 2 Hokage's souls and the other 1 to seal away Oro's, and that is done. The Death God has consumed the 2 Hokage's souls, Oro's soul as well as the 3 Shadow Clone's souls. The 3 Shadow Clones have sealed away the souls, while the real body is still alive and kicking.

That would mean that he would have found a way to consume a enemy's soul WITHOUT having to sacrifice himself. :o

MAKING IT THE ULTIMATE JUTSU! ( Gotta know how to use Shiki Fuuin and Shadow Clone Technique)

[Forever_Melody]

Just to clear one thing up, the events of Minato's confrontation with Kyuubi are not shown at all in the manga. It's in the anime that we see him on Bunta's head.b The manga shows no single image nor panel of that confrontation. All it shows is writing actually. So arguably, saying he was on Bunta's head when he performed Shiki Fuuin isn't canon enough IMO to say his Shiki Fuuin is ranged or anything.

Mind you, the "dividing Kyuubi's chakra" thing is a clear indicator that Minato performed something with Shiki Fuuin that Sandaime did not.

Random comment: How do you exactly train/develop a jutsu that kills you when you use it? :blink I mean, Sandaime used KB for his Shiki Fuuin, but the manga specifically said the Shinigami wants your soul after he performs the jutsu so whether or not it's a KB shouldn't matter since the KB and you share the same soul.

[jdw]

Just to clear one thing up, the events of Minato's confrontation with Kyuubi are not shown at all in the manga. It's in the anime that we see him on Bunta's head.b The manga shows no single image nor panel of that confrontation. All it shows is writing actually. So arguably, saying he was on Bunta's head when he performed Shiki Fuuin isn't canon enough IMO to say his Shiki Fuuin is ranged or anything.

Here is a depiction of the confrontation in panels in the manga: http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/1/1/
May not be the best ever but it is what we've got.

[Forever_Melody]

Well it's a drawing, not exactly a screenshot, but yeah, Minato and Gamabunta are on that image and Minato does seem to be performing what seems to be Shiki Fuuin.

Random comment; Kyuubi looks considerably larger than Bunta in that drawing O_o

[Weapon_X]

Just to clear one thing up, the events of Minato's confrontation with Kyuubi are not shown at all in the manga. It's in the anime that we see him on Bunta's head.b The manga shows no single image nor panel of that confrontation. All it shows is writing actually. So arguably, saying he was on Bunta's head when he performed Shiki Fuuin isn't canon enough IMO to say his Shiki Fuuin is ranged or anything.

Mind you, the "dividing Kyuubi's chakra" thing is a clear indicator that Minato performed something with Shiki Fuuin that Sandaime did not.

Random comment: How do you exactly train/develop a jutsu that kills you when you use it? :blink I mean, Sandaime used KB for his Shiki Fuuin, but the manga specifically said the Shinigami wants your soul after he performs the jutsu so whether or not it's a KB shouldn't matter since the KB and you share the same soul.

Well if you look at page number 1 of Naruto chapter 1, you can see the drawing outline of the 4th on top of Gamabunta. You can see the line outline of the frog, and the ninja (the 4th)on top of him performing the Shiki Fuuin.

That's what I mean,if someone uses a KB to perform Shiki Fuuin then the real person can't die, but just the KB. The Third used 2 KB's to seal the Hokage's souls, and yet he was still alive to fight Oro. If he had used 1 more to KB to seal Oro's soul then he wouldn't die but the KB's would. :| Shame he didn't have enough chakra though, he could have been still alive. :(

[Forever_Melody]

Well if you look at page number 1 of Naruto chapter 1, you can see the drawing outline of the 4th on top of Gamabunta. You can see the line outline of the frog, and the ninja (the 4th)on top of him performing the Shiki Fuuin.
Yes thank you for repeating the above poster on something I've alreayd acknowledged lol :p


That's what I mean,if someone uses a KB to perform Shiki Fuuin then the real person can't die, but just the KB. The Third used 2 KB's to seal the Hokage's souls, and yet he was still alive to fight Oro. If he had used 1 more to KB to seal Oro's soul then he wouldn't die but the KB's would. :| Shame he didn't have enough chakra though, he could have been still alive. :(
The "real" Sandaime survived because the jutsu wasn't completed(as in, he hadn't finished using it). The Shinigami wants your soul to perform the tasks of Shiki Fuuin. KBs are chakra replicas of you. As far as the manga shows us, it doesn't split your soul. Notice that when the Shinigami is summoned, he holds your soul in front of him(link (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/122/13/) notice the soul attached ot the Shinigami is Sandaime's and not his KB's). Therefore, the contract is sealed as soon as you summon the Shinigami IMO since your soul is t the mercy of the Death God.

There shouldn't be a simple loophole like KB to this jutsu since that'd break the whole purpose of the jutsu. The Shinigami is a God of Pete's sake, if it wants your soul, it'll have it one way or another and a KB won't fool it :blink

[Weapon_X]

Yes thank you for repeating the above poster on something I've alreayd acknowledged lol :p


The "real" Sandaime survived because the jutsu wasn't completed(as in, he hadn't finished using it). The Shinigami wants your soul to perform the tasks of Shiki Fuuin. KBs are chakra replicas of you. As far as the manga shows us, it doesn't split your soul. Notice that when the Shinigami is summoned, he holds your soul in front of him(link (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/122/13/) notice the soul attached ot the Shinigami is Sandaime's and not his KB's). Therefore, the contract is sealed as soon as you summon the Shinigami IMO since your soul is t the mercy of the Death God.

There shouldn't be a simple loophole like KB to this jutsu since that'd break the whole purpose of the jutsu. The Shinigami is a God of Pete's sake, if it wants your soul, it'll have it one way or another and a KB won't fool it :blink

God everyone is getting off topic here. This is the ultimate jutsu thread, not the Shiki Fuuin thread.;)

Yeah, thanks for clearing thatup. I understand (Y). :D

Safe to say it is the ultimate jutsu.xD

[Phoenix946]

No way, they should have asked Itachi to come seal the Kyuubi in a genjutsu with Susanoo :tem

Of course ultimate is hard to define, but I'd say the ultimate jutsu so far is the jutsu Nagato uses to create and control Pain. Until we know more of that, I assume all the individual abilities of the bodies come with that jutsu. It's incredible offense, defense, and it does not put the user in any type of danger since it can be used from such a long range, seemingly untracable unless you can trace chakra. And so far, we haven't seen any confirmed drawback of it, since the reason of Nagato's state is yet unknown.

[Weapon_X]

No way, they should have asked Itachi to come seal the Kyuubi in a genjutsu with Susanoo :tem

Of course ultimate is hard to define, but I'd say the ultimate jutsu so far is the jutsu Nagato uses to create and control Pain. Until we know more of that, I assume all the individual abilities of the bodies come with that jutsu. It's incredible offense, defense, and it does not put the user in any type of danger since it can be used from such a long range, seemingly untracable unless you can trace chakra. And so far, we haven't seen any confirmed drawback of it, since the reason of Nagato's state is yet unknown.

What about the Uber Shinra Tensei? That could be called an ultimate jutsu since it's like a nuclear weapon and can wipe out an entire village. -__-

[Phoenix946]

What about the Uber Shinra Tensei? That could be called an ultimate jutsu since it's like a nuclear weapon and can wipe out an entire village. -__-


Until we know more of that, I assume all the individual abilities of the bodies come with that jutsu.

Since we know so little of how the jutsu works, I assume the jutsu to control Pain allows Nagato to use the abilities of the individual bodies. In Animal Realm's case that's nothing special but in the other cases, including God Realm's, it's pretty wicked.

[Raizen]

I want to clear something up, just b/c u use KB does not mean that SF won;t take ur soul. That is a requirement. Using KB just allows u to capture more than one soul like in the 3rd's case

As for whether Minato was on gama, that shouldn't be a debate. It has been stated in the manga already. But it does not mean Minato used SF from bunta's head. Just that bunta was there to help him

[devilman3999]

Ok guys i was just wondering how did Yondaime came up with this tremendous jutsu? did he just made it up on his own being bored 1 day playing with hand formations on Bang!...And also what drove him to teach it to the 4th hokage? did he new it will be used in the future?? please discuss :)

[eroda]

yondaime is the 4th hokage.... the old man is the 3rd hokage....

[jdw]

Ok guys i was just wondering how did Yondaime came up with this tremendous jutsu? did he just made it up on his own being bored 1 day playing with hand formations on Bang!...And also what drove him to teach it to the 4th hokage? did he new it will be used in the future?? please discuss :)

I don't think it has been explicitly stated how Yondaime made the jutsu. My guess is that he just wanted to develop a jutsu that could completely seal away any enemy if used. The downside is that it would cost the user his/her life. I think it was a risky proposition given that it isn't the type of jutsu that gives you a second chance or many opportunities to practice it.

The third could have helped him with the jutsu or the 4th could have straight up taught him. Sandaime was said to know every jutsu in Konoha.

[M3J]

It could be the jutsu could be used, at least many times, without killing the user as long as no one was sealed or anything. It could be how Yondaime practiced it, by summoning it without sealing.

[jdw]

It could be the jutsu could be used, at least many times, without killing the user as long as no one was sealed or anything. It could be how Yondaime practiced it, by summoning it without sealing.

In the battle against Oro, the death god took hold of Sandaime's soul before he did anything else at all directly after he was summoned, see here (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/123/05/). It isn't conclusive, but it leads me to believe once he is summoned, the summoner is toast, irrespective of whether he seals another or fails. Your theory does sound reasonable though :)

[M3J]

It could be just in case or it could assume the summoner will seal something regardless.

[Forever_Melody]

Can someone find me the link where it said that Minato created Shiki Fuin? I can't seem to find the exact page/chapter anymore :s I know it was referred to as Minato's jutsu, but there's always the possibility that maybe he didn't invent it so much as found some secret knowledge somewhere of the ability to summon the Death God and he created Shiki Fuin from that.

[En Yang Ji]

I guess Gedo Mazo should be added to the list of invincible jutsu. It does have a really big drawback, though. At least the drawback isn't as bad as Shiki fuuin.

[THM Nindo]

What I find strange about the Death God Summon is that Minato did see him at least once before having to use it against the Kyubbi.

When he use it, the Third said that that Minato told him that only the Summoner can see him. How would he know that, otherwise?
He couldn't have told him after the Kyubbi attack, since he was dead.

I hope we will get an explanation on how he found out that Summon, because to me, it is one of the biggest "plot-hole" of the manga...

How can someone create this!?
I never understood that...

[Bleda]

No way, they should have asked Itachi to come seal the Kyuubi in a genjutsu with Susanoo :tem

Of course ultimate is hard to define, but I'd say the ultimate jutsu so far is the jutsu Nagato uses to create and control Pain. Until we know more of that, I assume all the individual abilities of the bodies come with that jutsu. It's incredible offense, defense, and it does not put the user in any type of danger since it can be used from such a long range, seemingly untracable unless you can trace chakra. And so far, we haven't seen any confirmed drawback of it, since the reason of Nagato's state is yet unknown.

I believe that Susanoo can not seal kyuubi. Sure, Susanoo and the spirutual relics it hold are powerful however Kyuubi, unsealed, is totally on a different level.

[Weapon_X]

Can someone find me the link where it said that Minato created Shiki Fuin? I can't seem to find the exact page/chapter anymore :s I know it was referred to as Minato's jutsu, but there's always the possibility that maybe he didn't invent it so much as found some secret knowledge somewhere of the ability to summon the Death God and he created Shiki Fuin from that.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/124/04/
Well this is the closest as in to say the 4th used/created the jutsu etc.

That's too deep. You have to agree that Minato created this Jutsu. As to how he created the Jutsu is unknown.

[Forever_Melody]

Just because it's called Minato's jutsu doesn't mean he invented it from head to toe. I doubt he decided one day he'd summon the Death God and magically invented a way to do it. There could've easily have been knowledge somewhere or some record about people having attempted to deal with death or some other thing and Minato used that knowledge to develop the jutsu.

It's easy to say "we don't know", but the fact is Minato somehow invented a jutsu which required his life to use. SO obviously he didn't practice using it until actually its first use on Kyuubi >.>

[jdw]

Just because it's called Minato's jutsu doesn't mean he invented it from head to toe. I doubt he decided one day he'd summon the Death God and magically invented a way to do it. There could've easily have been knowledge somewhere or some record about people having attempted to deal with death or some other thing and Minato used that knowledge to develop the jutsu.

It's easy to say "we don't know", but the fact is Minato somehow invented a jutsu which required his life to use. SO obviously he didn't practice using it until actually its first use on Kyuubi >.>

The jutsu has to have an origin, why not with him? All the evidence we have, which is admittedly not much, points to him. Even if others had discussed or tried to summon the death god on their own, if his creation was successful the credit for the jutsu goes to him, though he may have been inspired somewhere along the way.

[Forever_Melody]

Oh I'm not saying it wasn't him.

I'm just trying to find an explanation as to how you exactly create a jutsu which kills you when you use it :blink. Unlike say Deidara's suicide bomb, Shiki Fuuin is a bit more complex and intricate in terms of mechanics so I doubt Minato just wrote it on paper and "winged it" when Kyuubi arrived.

Then again, that may be explanation as to how he invented/practiced it without dying lol :p

But anyways, my suggestion was that perhaps the knowledge of summoning the Shinigami was obtained elsewhere(that way Minaot didn't exactly practice how to do it and you know, DIE) and Minato developed the actual "Fuin" part of Shiki Fuin.

[Weapon_X]

Oh I'm not saying it wasn't him.

I'm just trying to find an explanation as to how you exactly create a jutsu which kills you when you use it :blink. Unlike say Deidara's suicide bomb, Shiki Fuuin is a bit more complex and intricate in terms of mechanics so I doubt Minato just wrote it on paper and "winged it" when Kyuubi arrived.

Then again, that may be explanation as to how he invented/practiced it without dying lol :p

But anyways, my suggestion was that perhaps the knowledge of summoning the Shinigami was obtained elsewhere(that way Minaot didn't exactly practice how to do it and you know, DIE) and Minato developed the actual "Fuin" part of Shiki Fuin.

He doesn't have to practise it to use the Jutsu. He may have known what the Jutsu does and what the drawbacks are and only use it as a last resort against a really big threat which would go against Konoha (the Kyuubi). Just how Sandaime used it against Oro. Minato probably taught Sandaime the effects of the Jutsu and the drawbacks, only use it when you have to.

Just how Deidara knew his suicide bomb Jutsu. He knows what it does but he doesn't have to practise it. Only use it as a last resort thing.

[Forever_Melody]

As I've said though, the suicide bomb is pretty simple in mechanics, it goes boom. Arguably, Deidara might just have used the same mechanics for his regular bombs, but on his own body. We haven't seen anything from Minato that remotely resembles a "non-fatal version" of Shiki Fuin for him to base the assumptions of any mechanics.

Summoning the Death God and making him eat souls isn't exactly as predictable...

And how do you figure he KNEW what the jutsu did? Naruto didn't exactly know what FRS did when he practiced/"created" it now did he? On paper mechanics only do so much really. That's why there is an element of practice involved for things in life.

[M3J]

Oh I'm not saying it wasn't him.

I'm just trying to find an explanation as to how you exactly create a jutsu which kills you when you use it :blink. Unlike say Deidara's suicide bomb, Shiki Fuuin is a bit more complex and intricate in terms of mechanics so I doubt Minato just wrote it on paper and "winged it" when Kyuubi arrived.

Then again, that may be explanation as to how he invented/practiced it without dying lol :p

But anyways, my suggestion was that perhaps the knowledge of summoning the Shinigami was obtained elsewhere(that way Minaot didn't exactly practice how to do it and you know, DIE) and Minato developed the actual "Fuin" part of Shiki Fuin.

Wouldn't Shiki Fuuin kill the summoner if somethign is sealed?

[Forever_Melody]

Well judging from the manga panels, the user's soul is trapped within the shinigami's grasp as soon as it is summoned (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/122/13/) so seems the price is paid beforehand.

[M3J]

Shinigami could let go of the soul if the summoner doesn't seal, or it could grasp their soul to know what they're doing.

[Forever_Melody]

Yeah, the shinigami seems like a very reasonable person to deal with lol :p

I'm pretty sure the shinigami wouldn't like being summoned just for the fun of it. It *is* a god after all.

[M3J]

But it's for practice, and for all we know, Yondaime could have perfected it as best as he could before actually trying.

[Forever_Melody]

What do you mean? The shinigami won't like being summoned regardless if for practice or not. Gamabunta wasn't happy when Naruto "practiced" his summoning and called on him so why would the shinigami be any different? Heck, the shinigami would be in a worse state lol :p

[M3J]

Is Shinigami really Shinigami or something else that looks like Shinigami? Maybe Minato had a way to avoid death when practicing the jutsu... he's had to use it at least once before just randomly trying it on the Kyuubi. Or Minato likes to take risks, kinda like Naruto. <_<

[Belisar]

- Kirin
- Which is faster? Amaterasu, or Kirin? Who knows. One is as fast as sight, the other as lightning.
- Amaterasu is definitely more powerful though. Kirin can only be used once, not to mention only on a single opponent while Amaterasu can burn a village down.



-Kirin
-takes a long time to prepare
-time is needed to gather the lightning
- can be redirected by lightning rod(which can be anything metallic)
- can be redirected by another person who can manipulate lightning element as well

it blew up the whole hideout. http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/391/10/
how can it be used only on one person and not a village? :blink
besides what kind of lightning rod do you need to redirect this thunder? :blink

logic fail

[jdw]

it blew up the whole hideout. http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/391/10/
how can it be used only on one person and not a village? :blink
besides what kind of lightning rod do you need to redirect this thunder? :blink

logic fail

A village equipped with lightning rods could possibly render Kirin useless or much less effective if the jutsu were to strike a lightening rod (or rods). It is the reason lightening rods exist in the first place. However, I think it is terribly unlikely Konoha or any village would be protected from Kirin because they have lightning rods.

[Forever_Melody]

Well Kirin is more powerful than a single lightning bolt. Sasuke uses ALL the energy stored in a thundercloud(hence it dissipating after) and thunderclouds arguably can shoot quite a few lightning bolts before dissipating. Therefore, you'd need a mssive amount of lightning rods to re-direct the energy.

However, a person might be possible considering Sasuke himself DOES redirect Kirin to its target.

@M3J: The databook calls the shinigami from Shiki Fuin te actual thing, unlike say Susanoo where it refers to it as "an avatar" so I suppose it is the real deal.

[M3J]

Well Kirin is more powerful than a single lightning bolt. Sasuke uses ALL the energy stored in a thundercloud(hence it dissipating after) and thunderclouds arguably can shoot quite a few lightning bolts before dissipating. Therefore, you'd need a mssive amount of lightning rods to re-direct the energy.

However, a person might be possible considering Sasuke himself DOES redirect Kirin to its target.

@M3J: The databook calls the shinigami from Shiki Fuin te actual thing, unlike say Susanoo where it refers to it as "an avatar" so I suppose it is the real deal.

Oh, I dunno much about the databook, haven't read it. >_< Maybe Shinigami isn't as mean as we thought? I dunno, I'm providing ideas here without any help. <_< :P

Kirin is definitely faster. You have a chance to avoid Mangekyou, even if for a while, but Kirin is said to be as fast, if not faster, than lightning. That shit is fast, maaan. Amaterasu is stronger though.

[Smokes]

Oh I'm not saying it wasn't him.

I'm just trying to find an explanation as to how you exactly create a jutsu which kills you when you use it :blink. Unlike say Deidara's suicide bomb, Shiki Fuuin is a bit more complex and intricate in terms of mechanics so I doubt Minato just wrote it on paper and "winged it" when Kyuubi arrived.

Then again, that may be explanation as to how he invented/practiced it without dying lol :p

But anyways, my suggestion was that perhaps the knowledge of summoning the Shinigami was obtained elsewhere(that way Minaot didn't exactly practice how to do it and you know, DIE) and Minato developed the actual "Fuin" part of Shiki Fuin.

You know, I'd always suspected, since he used it to seal Kyuubi, that it was a technique that was used to seal Jinchuuriki. Konoha doesn't seem to practice such forbidden jutsu, but other villages apparently don't have a problem with it.

There could be some lineage in villages whose job it was to perform the ritual and sealing and sacrifice themselves for the good of the village. If Minato was privy to this, he could have learned it from a Konoha ally.

But the only problem with that guess is that Oro apparently didn't know a thing about it. It would have to have been an incredibly well kept secret if he hadn't dug it up.

[Delbi]

Random comment: How do you exactly train/develop a jutsu that kills you when you use it? :blink I mean, Sandaime used KB for his Shiki Fuuin, but the manga specifically said the Shinigami wants your soul after he performs the jutsu so whether or not it's a KB shouldn't matter since the KB and you share the same soul.

Well, it's not like Minato created the actual Death God, he simply developed a way to harness his power. Perhaps there were legends stating that the Death God could kill anyone at the cost of a life? Minato may have simply found a way to summon him and use that power.

[Forever_Melody]

@smokes: well the method of sealing differs from village to village so Shiki Fuin may not have been the other people's practice.

@Delbi: That's what I was thinking too. Like, he might've found some way to summon the Shinigami and from there developed Shiki Fuin somehow.

[Shaunlim]

it blew up the whole hideout. http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/391/10/
how can it be used only on one person and not a village? :blink
besides what kind of lightning rod do you need to redirect this thunder? :blink

logic fail

A lightning rod in sense of a regular lightning rod. Anything sharp/pointy and metallic. I don't really see why anything out of the ordinary is needed. Unless of course simple physics doesn't apply with Kirin which I'm not saying it does but from what we have seen, it's still regular lightning collected.

[Raizen]

Kirin, a bad technique if u go up agaist someone who can control raiton better than u. Then basically u just handed them a gun to kill u with

[Kuranzyan]

Yondaime would've worked out all the finer details about Shiki Fuuin through Shadow Clones or something. Perhaps he used some sort of genjutsu to make someone, i.e. an enemy shinobi use the jutsu he designed on an inanimate object and observed the effects firsthand?

Nobody would care for a captured shinobi, especially if the war was over or the shinobi in question was already presumed dead.

[benelori]

I dont think it is that easy for hirashin as for not having to worry about where he pops out of. Obviously he knows where he is throwing the kunai, but if the place where is lands is unfavorable, such as a narrow space, I dont see how it wont be a problem. To be honest I think madara's is better for a number of reasons:
Madara can teleport parts of his body to avoid damage.

Madara is not limited as to where he can go. As madara showed, he was able to teleport instantly to where sasuke was, wich was about 10 km in a second. Minato on the other hand is limited to going were the tag is.

Madara also showed he could travel distances much longer than 10 km since he was at one moment seen at amekagure and the next one at VOTE. That trip from what has been seen so far takes a couple of days normaly.

Also he apparently didnt need much knowledge of what the terrain was like since he teleported there and the terrain had gone throught quite some change.

Madara probably wouldnt be able to pull of what minato did during the gaiden. Minato used the tags and other ninjas to guide him. But that doesnt mean madara wouldnt be able to do something similar. Just by spotting the enemy he could instantly move behind them and attack.

Also the free teleport thing would mean cornering madara is almost imposible since he could just disappear into another country(of his liking) in a sec. Minato on the other hand would need a very conveniently place tag to do this.

Minato's jutsu could have tactical advantages over madara's, such as tracking someone with a tag or similar things, but overall I would say madara's is more practical.

It's not just that, as far as we know madara doesn't need any sealing jutsu to perform his, though it might be a sharingan tech
[hr]

A lightning rod in sense of a regular lightning rod. Anything sharp/pointy and metallic. I don't really see why anything out of the ordinary is needed. Unless of course simple physics doesn't apply with Kirin which I'm not saying it does but from what we have seen, it's still regular lightning collected.

Kirin is no simple lightning man, http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/391/08/
and it blew up kinda everything there, though in terms of physics it's almost alright, but even then a simple lightning rod wouldn't be enough, and this is narutoverse, everyday physics don't apply here
[hr]

I don't think it has been explicitly stated how Yondaime made the jutsu. My guess is that he just wanted to develop a jutsu that could completely seal away any enemy if used. The downside is that it would cost the user his/her life. I think it was a risky proposition given that it isn't the type of jutsu that gives you a second chance or many opportunities to practice it.

The third could have helped him with the jutsu or the 4th could have straight up taught him. Sandaime was said to know every jutsu in Konoha.

Sandaime said that minato taught him this jutsu
[hr]

Can someone find me the link where it said that Minato created Shiki Fuin? I can't seem to find the exact page/chapter anymore :s I know it was referred to as Minato's jutsu, but there's always the possibility that maybe he didn't invent it so much as found some secret knowledge somewhere of the ability to summon the Death God and he created Shiki Fuin from that.

I read the replies to this post...the most trustworthy source are the databooks if U can't find the chapter, Databook 2 page 228( i read this on naruto.wikia)
[hr]

I wrote this thread in response to the numerous debates going on in the versus threads about jutsus. With this thread, it will be easier for you guys to analyze and debate specific jutsus and their strengths/weaknesses. That way, flawed arguments in the versus threads will hopely decrease.

Ok so this thread should test your analytical capacities of the manga according to statements, facts and overall observation.

All jutsus, no matter how strong, have always had a drawback, a weakness or some kind of counter to them. With this, Kishi demonstrates that no jutsu can be an instant-win, an auto-kill or whatnot. He smartly implements a drawback system to everything. Every strength has a weakness and so forth.

Now, what are these drawbacks? Some are stated obviously by the manga, others are stated in databooks and others(these are the more interesting ones I find) can be derived or extrapolated from manga events and statements of the jutsus in action.

Now, the easiest jutsus to analyze are the ones with the obvious flaws like FRS, where it destroys your arm and needs a close range hit to be effective(which isn't an easy requirement these days).

So I have dressed a small list of these types of very high level jutsus which would be fun for people to analyze and extricate the flaws(no matter how small) in these. Also, feel free to add to the list, I might've forgotten some.

- Amaterasu
- Tsukiyomi
- Susanoo
- Kirin
- C4
- Hirashin
- Madara's space/time jutsu
- Hermit mode/Sage mode
- Kakashi's MS jutsu
- Shinra Tensei/Banshou Ten'in/Chibaku Tensei

Feel free to add in other jutsus(even if they aren't high tier) to the list :tem. Hopefully this'll become a better place to discuss jutsus so that they can be better pit against each other in a versus thread. As it stands, people are arguing on 2 jutsus, when their own understanding of each technique is different.

Anyways, discuss!

Very interesting thread, though most jutsu are as mysterious as its users.

The MS techs have an obvious drawback, consumes a lot of chakra and makes to user go blind. For use in combat are very powerful, but amaterasu, tsukiyomi, and kakashi's tech requires clear line of sight(tsukiyomi needs eye contact, too).We saw kakashi countering itachi's MS quite well, the second time they fought.Susanoo is a mystery to me, but if after two uses the user is on the verge of death...well powerful techs have even more dangerous risks.

Kirin is one of the most powerful techs ever seen in the manga. Too bad it has one time usage, usually. We can't denied if the weather is stormy with lot of thunder clouds,then sasuke can use it more than once. Tactics for countering it are the same as for amaterasu. Both are quick(irrelevant which is quicker), a kagebunshin, kawarimi or a more powerful tech can do the job.

C4 has the fewest drawbacks here.If not countered by a doujutsu user, than U have no chance predicting what is happening only until U get hit by it. Again KB with hiding in the ground is good dodging, but as I said if U can't see chakra UR wasted.Sasuke was lucky he had chidori and sharingan.

Hiraishin is limited to the amount of seals the user can place before or in battle, but even with these drawbacks, it's still a formidable jutsu, inferior though to madara's. Madara needs no seals, can apply his jutsu to his individual bodyparts. Though i need to point that the two slightly differ from each other. We saw that madara needs to form his body in the jutsu, in other words needs time to appear, i believe it resembles kakashi's MS tech at least the basic idea is the same. Minato's jutsu is like kuchiyose, instant. We can't really compare the two in terms of speed, but if we try then minato's jutsu is faster.
Madara's jutsu is a mystery, so i can't really point out drawbacks, but if it is a sharingan related power then the usual MS drawbacks can be applied( huge chakra, blindness).
Regardin Madara but not just him, i think another great jutsu in the manga is controlling tailed beasts, in any ways possible.
EMS is the first one, but i think summoning and controlling kyuubi can drain the powers of the EMS, I can't find any reasons why madara didn't use EMS powers so far.
Mokuton jutsu is the second one.Now in this case I can't really find drawbacks except that it definitely consumes tones of chakra.
4th Mizukage's powers are unknown, but IMO it resembles killerbee method of controlling a bijuu, which is not control really, but cooperation. It has one serious drawback, when releasing many tails the body is severely damaged, and the quick recovery after that is shortening one's lifespan.

Sage mode is badass, but it requires stillness, and time to build up sage chakra, also if control is lost U can transform into a stone frog...IMO this can't really happen if one masters the balance needed, but it is a risk nonetheless.

Pain's techs only drawback is the power recovery time.The bigger the effect, more time is needed to recover, also consumes lots of chakra, but all these high level tech do.

Regarding shiki fuujin...it is said it was developed by minato, though other techs, rituals involving shinigami might exist. Konoha has a huge collection of forbidden jutsus, it is possible there are hints concerning a shinigami. The really formidable behind the whole shiki fuujin thing is, that the 4th used it in combination with other things: he separated kyuubi's chakra in two then sealed it, he used a high level sealing jutsu to let kyuubi's chakra to leak in naruto, also he left a portion of his chakra in naruto, to speak with him and restore the seal if naruto reaches 8 tails. All these with shiki fuujin is awesome, and lives up to minato's reputation.

Gedo Mazo seems to be an entity of some kind, it can store tailes beasts, can kill people in an instant, and one must sync with it in order to use it. Not much is known but i think nagato's chair is needed to do that, if so then not being able to move is a drawback http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/447/09/ . Those strings drain chakra and from what i saw the magic chair had similar strings in it. But i'm not sure about this last part.

[Beldin]

We have to add Raikage's Raiton Armor to this thread: one of the most powerful supplementary we've ever seen, easely an S-rank raiton

[Kuranzyan]

Raikage's Raiton no Yoroi isn't S-rank, rather an A-rank in my opinion. It's just a boost similar to Sage Mode, only it involves normal (raiton) chakra instead of tapping into nature. To boot, it's defensive enhancements are inferior to Sage Mode's, and it doesn't enhance Ninjutsu/Genjutsu. The only unique advantage is that it increases your sensory perception.

[Beldin]

a chidori, that cover only one hand, is A-rank, a raikiri an S-rank

raiton armor covers the entire body, power up defense, offense, speed and granted super reflex. also con be charged to an higher level and can repel the attack (just like chidori sword). raikage himself stated that only a jutsu like chidori can penetrate the armor

it is much higer and diffult that chidori (A-rank)

[Kuranzyan]

If Chidori, a raiton A-rank jutsu can penetrate the Raiton no Yoroi, exactly how can RoY be ranked higher than Chidori? Both involve the same principles of shape and nature manipulation, the only difference is in their manner of adaptation. To me, the RoY is A-rank.

[Beldin]

when 2 A-rank jutsu clash, just like chidori and rasengan, they cancel each other

chuidori can barely pass through RoY, and after that, Roy is perfect, just like when an A-rank jutsu clash with an S-rank jutsu of the same type

Both involve the same principles of shape and nature manipulation
raikiri it's an upgrade version of chidori, an it is S-rank, same principles

and RoY isn't uses the same principles than chidori and raikiri, becasue these jutsu has only the pourpuse of cutting through things, the Roy as well as having the ability to cut, incresed strenght, speed, defense and reflexes

it's very different from chidori and raikiri. it isn't a simple chidori/raikiri that covers all the body, that's chidori nagashi. RoY is much more powerful, and added many ability

[kkck]

I am not sure on whether the armor increases the speed of the raikage. It was said it either bypasses sysnapsis or speeds it up considerably which does not really suggest an increase in speed. The way I see it, the raikage already has unnatural high speed and the armor merely allows him to use it in a way normal people would not. In a way it is like a sharingan, it does not increase speed, it creates an ilusion of increased speed.

I would say the technique is s-class though. The technique requires the user to constantly burn chakra so even if the technique is simply and just requires the user to generate a constant supply of electricity, it certainly requires an unnatural amount of stamina.

[Hojinmaru]

We have to add Raikage's Raiton Armor to this thread: one of the most powerful supplementary we've ever seen, easely an S-rank raiton

wow, Raikage went super sayan like Goku....

am I the only one not impressed? the sooner the Raikage fails the better, he needs to retire and join the WWE >_>

[SharkJAW]

Hiraishin is limited to the amount of seals the user can place before or in battle, but even with these drawbacks, it's still a formidable jutsu, inferior though to madara's. Madara needs no seals, can apply his jutsu to his individual bodyparts. Though i need to point that the two slightly differ from each other. We saw that madara needs to form his body in the jutsu, in other words needs time to appear, i believe it resembles kakashi's MS tech at least the basic idea is the same. Minato's jutsu is like kuchiyose, instant. We can't really compare the two in terms of speed, but if we try then minato's jutsu is faster.
Madara's jutsu is a mystery, so i can't really point out drawbacks, but if it is a sharingan related power then the usual MS drawbacks can be applied( huge chakra, blindness).
Regardin Madara but not just him, i think another great jutsu in the manga is controlling tailed beasts, in any ways possible.
EMS is the first one, but i think summoning and controlling kyuubi can drain the powers of the EMS, I can't find any reasons why madara didn't use EMS powers so far.


It may be that Madara isn't in his true body. This would explain Itachi's reference to him being "a shell of his formwe self." It would also explain his teleportation ability (he is in Obito) and only has one eye, in which has the ability to allow him to move parts of his body to another dimension, while Kakashi has the ability to move others, but not himself.

[Murdock]

It may be that Madara isn't in his true body. This would explain Itachi's reference to him being "a shell of his formwe self." It would also explain his teleportation ability (he is in Obito) and only has one eye, in which has the ability to allow him to move parts of his body to another dimension, while Kakashi has the ability to move others, but not himself.



he would be blind if that was the case ...

[benelori]

We saw another very interesting jutsu in the last chapter...it is not an invincible jutsu, but in most cases it can be...
It's Kisame's Chakra Draining Daikoudan...it's a jutsu that in my opinion shatters the barriers of elemental advantage, because it can feed on chakra...so I think this definitely should be added in this category...

[M3J]

The problem with that jutsu is that it needs chakra to feed on, otherwise the opposing jutsu will pass through it. It's not as invincible since a high level taijutsu user like Gai and even Lee can bypass that.

Other than that, it is a pretty good move and goes near the top. However, how will it do against doton, its weakness?

[Jack Van Burace]

Actually, its weakness is earth. Fire will die regardless because it's a high level Suiton, and fire is weak to water.

Doton might fare a bit better than other jutsus because it likely uses less chakra (earth is still, fire disperses energy, and so on). I think elemental advantages go beyond just 'who beats who', but also their strategies.

The chakra drainage of Daikoudan is a water property, as water drowns people, and people get tired while moving in it. It's a slow weakening process in either case, and suits the Suiton's strongest jutsu (I think this might be it).

Similarly, Futon keeps slicing over and over in Rasenshuriken, and Kirin doesn't take chakra to work, being practically unavoidable. Each element has its own "personality" and that reflects in their jutsu's traits.

[zerocooldx]

The problem with that jutsu is that it needs chakra to feed on, otherwise the opposing jutsu will pass through it. It's not as invincible since a high level taijutsu user like Gai and even Lee can bypass that.

Other than that, it is a pretty good move and goes near the top. However, how will it do against doton, its weakness?

Well Daikoudan is most definitely going to be classified as an S-Ranked jutsu. And the fact that we have seen the majority of the characters in the manga rely on nin-jutsu, its safe to say that the jutsu could crush the majority of nin-jutsu based shinobi. Also it seems that if Daikoudan were to hit an actual shinobi instead of a jutsu, then that shinobi would most likely have his chakra sucked out regardless of what kind of jutsu he uses. At least thats how the jutsu basically functions. Daikoudan seems to be Kisame+Samehada x2 in terms of chakra draining and offensive effectiveness.

Now if Daikoudan were to clash with a Doton jutsu of the same level i think that the Doton jutsu would probably still loose. And the reason i say that is because Daikoudan keeps on getting stronger as it absorbs chakra. So its power pretty much becomes limitless when it clashes with another nin-jutsu. Although i suppose if that Doton jutsu was high ranked, very fast, and had a piercing or slashing aspect to it, then it may be able to get thought Daikoudan before all of its chakra were to be drained. But even so the Doton just would probably still be weakened by the chakra drain.

[Jack Van Burace]

But there's a doubt regarding S-ranked jutsus we know:

-Rasenshuriken actually slices chakra itself, and therefore, could destroy the Daikoudan's structure before getting entirely swallowed; I think only timing would decide who gets on top.

-Amaterasu likely would lose, but it burns chakra itself, so Daikoudan wouldn't get much bigger.

-Kirin would evade and hit the target: both would hit = tie.

So S ranked jutsus likely match the fear imposed by Daikoudan. I don't think only Taijutsus would beat it. It's just a matter of another level of jutsus that require other S ranks to beat them.

[Roflkopt3r]

Gai said it...but it doesn't actually mean that it is you know, because I bet it wouldn't hurt Kyuubi much...Kisame didn't stop the jutsu one bit, it went right through it without no resistance and hit Kisame head on...then Kisame received a punch from Kisame, but after all these happened, Kisame was still able to break free...

Hirutora is not a 1 hit KO against everybody...it certainly wasn't against Kisame after what he pulled on the last panel

I fully agree. There always is this one-shot-certain-win talk.... It's just not true, anything is dodgeable, avoidable, breakable.
"Tsukuyomi! Unavoidable defeat without Sharingan!"
Yeah sure we all know that Madara already rules the world because he has Tsukuyomi... (guys, there is a reason why he doesn't just use it to onehit ninja like Minato... because he would just waste is powers.
"Amaterasu! He will defeat anyone"
Death count by Amaterasu so far: 0
He either hit his allies or some samurai muppet, the Hatchibi who survives it, or even rather his own allies. He only ignited Raikage at all because Raikage chose to sacrifice his limbs to kill Sasuke.
The most remarkable thing Amaterasu did so far, was burning a 10cm-long snake which escaped from Orochimaru in Sasuke versus Itachi.

Yeah, wrong thread, I know x_x
Nope, not anymore

Well, all I can hope for now is that Kisame kills Gai so Gai cannot terrorize us with overpowered jutsu anymore.

[xXan]

Gai said it...but it doesn't actually mean that it is you know, because I bet it wouldn't hurt Kyuubi much...Kisame didn't stop the jutsu one bit, it went right through it without no resistance and hit Kisame head on...then Kisame received a punch from Kisame, but after all these happened, Kisame was still able to break free...

Hirutora is not a 1 hit KO against everybody...it certainly wasn't against Kisame after what he pulled on the last panel

This does not make any sense. Are you telling me if Guy got hit in the face by that Jutsu it would do no damage ? Now you can go argue with Guy but he cleary said its a 1 hit kill jutsu http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/38409866/14

Now i also hope you are not comparing a human to a DAMN BIJU and not any biju but the 9 tails ... You can't even kill a biju so i realy don't see any corelation here.

Over here you can clearly see its a water BLAST and this would implay that it does some blunt damage.
http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/19840303/3
Now he also sais that the stronger the enemy jutsu the stronger and bigger it gets. Now in its normal state it does let's say 3 damage if it "eats" chakra on its way from a jutsu it will grow in strength and does let's say 5 damage. So this jutsu starts with a damage but grows even bigger by eating the enemy's jutsu and hitting him even harder.
The only conclusion i can find here is that Kisame's jutsu some how stoped Guy's blast a little so it turned into a KO blast. So its this or Guy is a damn liar ... Pick your side but i am going with the first.
[hr]

I fully agree. There always is this one-shot-certain-win talk.... It's just not true, anything is dodgeable, avoidable, breakable.
"Tsukuyomi! Unavoidable defeat without Sharingan!"
Yeah sure we all know that Madara already rules the world because he has Tsukuyomi... (guys, there is a reason why he doesn't just use it to onehit ninja like Minato... because he would just waste is powers.
"Amaterasu! He will defeat anyone"
Death count by Amaterasu so far: 0
He either hit his allies or some samurai muppet, the Hatchibi who survives it, or even rather his own allies. He only ignited Raikage at all because Raikage chose to sacrifice his limbs to kill Sasuke.
The most remarkable thing Amaterasu did so far, was burning a 10cm-long snake which escaped from Orochimaru in Sasuke versus Itachi.

Yeah, wrong thread, I know x_x

Well, all I can hope for now is that Kisame kills Gai so Gai cannot terrorize us with overpowered jutsu anymore.

First off its ITACHI's Tsukuyomi can't be defeated without Sharingan or better yet its unavoidable with no MS. Even if sasuke was able to get out of it with simple sharingan i am starting to think Itachi let him out or something. Now perhaps you can show me somebody with no sharaingan that got out of it ...
Amaterasu as any jutsu needs someone with a brain to be efective ... Now Sasuke realy does not realy belong here.
Also i don't remember anybody say Amaterasu would kill anything and nobody can escape it. Even with Guy's tech if he hits a clone nobody is going to die but if he actualy HITS his target then that target is dead.
The Samuray removing there gear was realy stupid ...

[benelori]

This does not make any sense. Are you telling me if Guy got hit in the face by that Jutsu it would do no damage ? Now you can go argue with Guy but he cleary said its a 1 hit kill jutsu http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/38409866/14

Now i also hope you are not comparing a human to a DAMN BIJU and not any biju but the 9 tails ... You can't even kill a biju so i realy don't see any corelation here.

Over here you can clearly see its a water BLAST and this would implay that it does some blunt damage.
http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/19840303/3
Now he also sais that the stronger the enemy jutsu the stronger and bigger it gets. Now in its normal state it does let's say 3 damage if it "eats" chakra on its way from a jutsu it will grow in strength and does let's say 5 damage. So this jutsu starts with a damage but grows even bigger by eating the enemy's jutsu and hitting him even harder.
The only conclusion i can find here is that Kisame's jutsu some how stoped Guy's blast a little so it turned into a KO blast. So its this or Guy is a damn liar ... Pick your side but i am going with the first.

There's no reason, to take the words of someone from the manga as absolute truth U know...I dunno if Gai would be hit what would the damage be...but Sage Naruto...or Naruto with Kyuubi cloak, or different people with some kind of absolute defense...

Gai clearly said it was 1 hit kill jutsu....yeah sure...I read the chapter, but he was wrong, because at the end of the same chapter Kisame bursts out, and he doesn't look dead to me...he might give out his last breath, we'll know that in the next chapter, but soon after hirutora landed, Gai needed another punch in 7th gate form in order to take out Kisame... once again...it's not a one hit kill jutsu...

Kisame's jutsu didn't eat away Gai's jutsu...because it wasn't chakra...

So basically despite of what Gai is saying...Kisame is still alive, but weakened enough to be taken out...but that doesn't make Hirutora one hit kill jutsu, nor Gai a liar...and there's no such thing as picking sides...Gai was wrong...

And about the comparison to Bijuus...Kisame was actually compared to one;)

[zerocooldx]

But there's a doubt regarding S-ranked jutsus we know:

-Rasenshuriken actually slices chakra itself, and therefore, could destroy the Daikoudan's structure before getting entirely swallowed; I think only timing would decide who gets on top.

-Amaterasu likely would lose, but it burns chakra itself, so Daikoudan wouldn't get much bigger.

-Kirin would evade and hit the target: both would hit = tie.

So S ranked jutsus likely match the fear imposed by Daikoudan. I don't think only Taijutsus would beat it. It's just a matter of another level of jutsus that require other S ranks to beat them.

- If we are assuming that both FRS and Daikoudan are S-Rankes jutsu, which by all accounts they should be. And we know that the two elements don't have any advantages over one another. Then i don't see how FRS can just slice through Daikoudan like a hot knife through butter. If two jutsu clash that are on fairly equal ground, then there is no way that one can just go through the other so easily. What should logically happen is that the two jutsu would have the proverbial clash and power struggle. In which case Daikoudan would begin to suck the chakra out of the FRS and increase its own power rank to that of above S-Rank. While the FRS due it loosing chakra would have its power rank decreased to that of below an S-Ranked jutsu. Ultimately resulting in the FRS being either fully absorbed or flat out crushed by Daikoudan.

- With Amaterasu one of two things would happen. If Daikoudan can swallow Amaterasu then i don't see why the flames of the jutsu wouldn't be completely extinguished due to the extreme chakra drain. But if Amaterasu can set the outside of Daikoudan on fire then for a short time, before the flames destroyed the shark, Kisame would effectively have a giant flaming shark missile to use. So in both scenarios of Daikoudan clashing with a blast Amaterasu, Daikoudan would come out on top.

- Now with Kirin i think that the result of Daikoudan vs Kirin would be completely one sided in Kirin's favor. Due to the fact that it is not made of chakra and because it strikes so quickly. The clash of those two jutsu would be Daikoudan vs Hirudora times 2 in Hirudora's favor. There just wouldn't be any type of real resistance that Daikoudan would offer up against Kirin.

[Naruto_Rasengan]

It all depends if there is a limit on how much it can absorb.

If there is a greater power than what Kisame is capable of absorbing what then happens? Is it possible for his Daikoudan to grow infinitely more powerful? It sounds kind of far-fetched, but if it can absorb without limit this means Kisame posses one of the most powerful Ninjutsu we have ever laid eyes on.

[Jack Van Burace]

Well, if Rasenshuriken can slice chakra, and Daikoudan is made of chakra, and Daikoudan's special property is to turn chakra into its own power not destruction of chakra, then Rasenshuriken would be weakened but still have the power to slice Daikoudan while being weakened.

Daikoudan doesn't destroy the enemy's jutsu, it swallows it diminishing its size until it disappears, from what I can get. So a clashing Rasenshuriken would still be able to slice the enemy's jutsu's structure while being "eaten", and both would terminate each other, imo.

[zerocooldx]

Well, if Rasenshuriken can slice chakra, and Daikoudan is made of chakra, and Daikoudan's special property is to turn chakra into its own power not destruction of chakra, then Rasenshuriken would be weakened but still have the power to slice Daikoudan while being weakened.

Daikoudan doesn't destroy the enemy's jutsu, it swallows it diminishing its size until it disappears, from what I can get. So a clashing Rasenshuriken would still be able to slice the enemy's jutsu's structure while being "eaten", and both would terminate each other, imo.

Regardless if the FRS slices chakra or not, it depends on the rank of the jutsu it clashes with. And in this case we believe that both are S-Ranked jutsu. So while the FRS is trying to tear through Daikoudan it would undoubtedly stop tearing through due to the fact that it has gotten weaker while Daikoudan has only gotten stronger. Thats what makes Daikoudan so different, as Kisame said the stronger that the opposing jutsu is the more powerful Daikoudan becomes. So yeah FRS would definitely start cutting into Daikoudan but the end result would be Daikoudan draining the FRS and making it so weak that is becomes completely ineffective.
[hr]

It all depends if there is a limit on how much it can absorb.

If there is a greater power than what Kisame is capable of absorbing what then happens? Is it possible for his Daikoudan to grow infinitely more powerful? It sounds kind of far-fetched, but if it can absorb without limit this means Kisame posses one of the most powerful Ninjutsu we have ever laid eyes on.

Well we know that Kisame is a perfect shinobi for hunting down Bijuu. So if Daikoudan can absorb a Bijuu chakra cannon, which by all accounts it definitely should, then it can absorb most other nin-jutsu attacks. Obvious there is a limit that every jutsu reaches, but i don't think we have seen a single jutsu with enough chakra to become too much to absorb. Samehada, being just an ant in comparison to Daikoudan, pretty much managed to come very close to sucking the Hachibi itself dry of chakra. And because of that we saw that it did indeed grow in size, but there wasn't any talk of it being full or at its limit. So something the size of a Bijuu, that being Daikoudan, could most definitely absorb a ton of chakra. Most likely more then a single being could possibly produce.

[Hojinmaru]

Well we know that Kisame is a perfect shinobi for hunting down Bijuu. So if Daikoudan can absorb a Bijuu chakra cannon, which by all accounts it definitely should, then it can absorb most other nin-jutsu attacks. Obvious there is a limit that every jutsu reaches, but i don't think we have seen a single jutsu with enough chakra to become too much to absorb. Samehada, being just an ant in comparison to Daikoudan, pretty much managed to come very close to sucking the Hachibi itself dry of chakra. And because of that we saw that it did indeed grow in size, but there wasn't any talk of it being full or at its limit. So something the size of a Bijuu, that being Daikoudan, could most definitely absorb a ton of chakra. Most likely more then a single being could possibly produce.

I doubt Daikoudan would stand up to the Kyuubi's chakra belch against Orochimaru. And if for some reason it did, I bet the Kyuubi could pull off an even bigger blast to answer that.

[zerocooldx]

I doubt Daikoudan would stand up to the Kyuubi's chakra belch against Orochimaru. And if for some reason it did, I bet the Kyuubi could pull off an even bigger blast to answer that.

I don't see why it couldn't. Gai's Hirudora caused more damage then the 4 tails Kyuubi chakra blast. Hell i even think Hirudora is more destructive then the 6 tails Kyuubi chakra blast. Yet Kisame was very confident in facing off against an attack like Hirudora, which just by its look it appeared to be insanely strong. Also if Suigetsu's water blob could negate the Hachibi's full on chakra blast there is no reason why Daikoudan couldn't overcome and absorb it. Not to mention that Kisame is an expert Bijuu catcher, so i'm sure he has faced off against a few Bijuu chakra blasts in his day.

But of course no one really knows what the Kyuubi's full power is like, so thats an unknown.

[Naruto_Rasengan]

Well we know that Kisame is a perfect shinobi for hunting down Bijuu. So if Daikoudan can absorb a Bijuu chakra cannon, which by all accounts it definitely should, then it can absorb most other nin-jutsu attacks. Obvious there is a limit that every jutsu reaches, but i don't think we have seen a single jutsu with enough chakra to become too much to absorb. Samehada, being just an ant in comparison to Daikoudan, pretty much managed to come very close to sucking the Hachibi itself dry of chakra. And because of that we saw that it did indeed grow in size, but there wasn't any talk of it being full or at its limit. So something the size of a Bijuu, that being Daikoudan, could most definitely absorb a ton of chakra. Most likely more then a single being could possibly produce.

Absorbing Bijuu cannon may be pushing it. The Bijuu cannon is extremely dense powerful chakra, more so than any ordinary jutsu. It's extremely destructive and annihilates everything in it's path, it is on a whole other level.

We have no idea on the absorption abilities of Daikoudan because it was overcome by Gai's Hiru Tora. We do not know if it is capable of absorbing as much as Samehada, which is capable of absorbing an insane amount of chakra.

We can't assume that it's the same as Pain's ability, where the jutsu just goes into a void. This would mean that there is definitely the possibility being overcome, as there isn't the infinite potential to absorb any Ninjutsu, no matter how powerful. We just don't know enough about the Daikoudan.

We do not know the limits of the jutsu, if any. But like I said before, if it has limitless potential to absorb anything then Kisame posses one of the most powerful and devastating jutsu in the series.

[zerocooldx]

Absorbing Bijuu cannon may be pushing it. The Bijuu cannon is extremely dense powerful chakra, more so than any ordinary jutsu. It's extremely destructive and annihilates everything in it's path, it is on a whole other level.

We have no idea on the absorption abilities of Daikoudan because it was overcome by Gai's Hiru Tora. We do not know if it is capable of absorbing as much as Samehada, which is capable of absorbing an insane amount of chakra.

We can't assume that it's the same as Pain's ability, where the jutsu just goes into a void. This would mean that there is definitely the possibility being overcome, as there isn't the infinite potential to absorb any Ninjutsu, no matter how powerful. We just don't know enough about the Daikoudan.

We do not know the limits of the jutsu, if any. But like I said before, if it has limitless potential to absorb anything then Kisame posses one of the most powerful and devastating jutsu in the series.

Of course Daikoudan can most likely absorb Bijuu chakra blasts. I mean Kisame has most definitely faced down a few Bijuu and undoubtedly a few Bijuu chakra blasts as well. Thus he is perfect for hunting down chakra monsters and fighting spamming nin-jutsu users. And again, those chakra blasts aren't the end all be all, they are strong but not that strong. Suigetsu, a glorified fodder, negated the Hachibi's full on 8 tail chakra blast with just a blob of water. So i think Kisame and Daikoudan would do just fine against chakra blasta. And like i already said we saw little Samehada, in comparison to Daikoudan, absorb most of the Hachibi's chakra. And jutsu themselves don't end up using nearly as much chakra as that. So logically of course Daikoudan could end up absorbing most nin-jutsu attacks head on.

But Daikoudan doesn't make Kisame an overpowered shinobi who can take down anyone he faces. It just means that if nin-jutsu are used head on against him he can end up overcoming most of them with Daikoudan. Shinobi who rely on powerhouse smash and bash nin-jutsu are at a disadvantage against Kisame. Having two jutsu clash head on at one another doesn't happen all too often in battles. But when it does its going to end up being in Kisame's favor because of Daikoudan. Even Kisame himself said it, "The stronger the enemy's technique is the stronger it gets". (http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/19840303/3) But the conditions have to warrant a nin-jutsu head on clash in order for this to come true. So yeah on paper Daikoudan looks like the end all be all, but very specific things have to happen in order for it to work. And if not then Daikoudan looses its effectiveness in battle.