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Tsukisama
October 07, 2008, 07:53 PM
The last one was so popular that it gets a sequel. :whoabunny

I think you know what this thread is for, but for those who don't, use this thread to discuss general Bleach-related topics.



Heyas everyone :amuse



This thread is the thread to talk about bleach-related stuff that doesn't fit anywhere or more casual talk about the series :) This thread isn't meant to replace other discussion threads, but is supposed to give you a place to simply be a bit "less serious".

You are allowed to talk about the latest completely released raw (non-jojohot) in here too :)

Although this thread is supposed to be more relaxed, i want you to notice that the following rules are in effect for this thread too:

- No spoilers out of the spoiler-threads in here (incl. jojohot raws/scanlations)
- No Agonizing about missing and requesting of raws
- No spam, this ain't the funforum ;)
- Keep it civil. No bashing of characters, mangas, mangakas, members or other individuals.


If you want a more general talk about everything, please check out our Latest Hang Out Thread (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11159) and the General Discussion Forum (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=18).

I bet we can pull a nice and friendly bleach-centric conversion up in here.

Have fun!

Andonan
October 08, 2008, 01:23 AM
Well let's kick this off with a very simple question, Will Ichigo's next power-up be Hollow related or Bankai related, i.e. will old man Zangetsu be his teacher or will hollow ichigo?

EmbodiedDespair
October 08, 2008, 02:26 AM
Personally, I hope to see Ichigo get smashed to the ground, because I don't see another power-up happening.

I mean, all the backup that's in Hueco Mundo now should be enough to make sure one little Espada doesn't wipe out mister Main character.

But, It's Kubo's world. We'll see what happens.

Xenos3421
October 08, 2008, 02:50 AM
Well, the last time Ichigo fought his hollow it mentioned Ichigo should just stay alive for a while til next time or something-

It's been like 100 chapters so its fitting.

delapaz13
October 08, 2008, 07:19 PM
well i think ichigo's inner hollow will have a different appearance in their next meeting...maybe in true hollow form or with an arrancar release?!!!!

hyn_pride93
October 09, 2008, 03:36 AM
Well let's kick this off with a very simple question, Will Ichigo's next power-up be Hollow related or Bankai related, i.e. will old man Zangetsu be his teacher or will hollow ichigo?

Based on what we have seen so far, Ichigo should get a hollow power-up. What could be a more perfect time for him to have a hollow power-up don't you think? :oh

Ichigo is already in HM, which is pretty much Hollow town boarder lining the gates of Hell itself. Ichigo getting a subliminal message from Kurosaki (the name we came up with for the inner hollow) during an inner battle or him trying to take over again. Or have him hint things to him.

If I'm wrong and it does happen to be Zangetsu, then I think that Zangetsu will tell Ichigo something and then when Ichigo thinks he's got the upper hand because time has frozen and he's talking to Zangetsu, Ulq is staring at him and then says something only he would say and then cut Ichigo. I think that's what would happen. It's sounds highly impossible with the Ulq part but many things happen in this manga that throw everyone off from time to time.

RICKisBOSS
October 09, 2008, 02:04 PM
Well I doubt Ichigo is strong enough to beat Ulquiorra so hopefully the match will be cut off or something aside from the usual powerup sequence. I doubt Grimmjow is dead-dead yet so maybe he'll try to come in and die in the process (Freeza on Vegeta) and in the event of Ichigo getting stronger, I figured if Chad got a powerup with his hollow powers, Ichigo may have one too. Or maybe Hichigo will emerge seeing how the environment better suits him.

Before I babble anymore, remember when Inoue healed Ichigo and said something about having a hard time healing his injury. Maybe Ulq did that to his own advantage by getting rid of Ichigo's Vaizard one. Menos have priority over other hollows so maybe Ulq can get rid of Hichigo all together leaving room for Ichigo to improve through Zangetsu?

redcometfm
October 09, 2008, 03:33 PM
Ive got an idea about the two hanging bodies.

a) They could tie into the Aizen's saying about the betrayal you dont see being even more frightening. Thus, since Mashiro and Kensei were the first two to be taken down and we don't see them again until Shinji and co arrive at the scene, those bodies could be somehow connect with them, if not them at all. He already duped Shinji with a double before, why not again?

b) Since Hollows such as Grand Fisher were attacking Shinigami in SS, perhaps under the orders of Aizen, they captured Shinigami and with Szayel's help, attempted to use the Hogyoku on then like he had on the hollows as an experiment and it may have turned out badly.

c) Reverse-use Hogyoku effects on Shinigami or Arrancar...potentially even human

d) Other version of Jinta and Ururu (we never found out where they came from and theyd both be ppl Ishida and Renji would recognize).

e) dopplegangers of Nemu and Mayuri (why in the hell would he come up with that random ability to dissolve into goo if someone like Aizen didnt come to him by force to demand info on the hogyoku)

Most likely I feel like its B, but thats just me.

RICKisBOSS
October 09, 2008, 07:12 PM
^ TBH, I always saw Jinta and Ururu as mod souls that Urahara made later on. That and I always figured that the two bodies were the privion that Grantz took in for research.

ryanzokuken
October 09, 2008, 07:26 PM
yea, i've never suspected the two hanging bodies to be anything particularly significant. most likely Dordoni and yo-yo skank.

Mayuri's "what have we here?" reaction could just be interest.

imagine, if the series continues and everyone gets another fight, that is, Mayuri having the powerful bodies of two privarion espada under his control, fighting for him. like Nemu, she's his creation. maybe if he found their bodies, he could mess with them and their brains and make them his puppets. :p

redcometfm
October 09, 2008, 07:55 PM
Yes but look at the legs and compare them to Dordonni's and Cirucci's. They don't match. They can only be arrancar/shinigami. Aizen wanted to go beyond his limits. What better way than to first see what the hogyoku can do for a shinigami, then go to the arrancar. And if Mayuri can analyze Aizen & Szayel's experiments, it may lead to power advancements for Soul Society to be able to handle Aizen and the Vasto Lordes.

Random extra thought: Aizen's own hogyoku device (used in Pendulum Gaiden) could have advanced in progress (since he was testing it on Kaien) and this could be the latest results.

Onomatopoeia
October 09, 2008, 10:27 PM
It's possible that it's two Royal Guard members... Aizen has taken a very serious interest in them and it would make sense that he wants to know as much as possible about them.

Hockeychaoz
October 10, 2008, 01:53 AM
Mayuri found the 4th hokage in there.
That's why he hasn't shown up in Naruto yet.

hyn_pride93
October 10, 2008, 03:32 AM
If it does turn out that those two figures are Royal Guard members... that'll be something interesting. But if we're gonna talk about this topic here, it'll probably be moved later on by one of the mods because I think there's a thread on this already. I know this is the hangout thread but I have a feeling that we'll be told about this sooner or later.

Omi_XII
October 10, 2008, 08:39 AM
I bet zinedine zidane is an Espada. Did you see his headbutt?

No Cero could compare to that

http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2006/07/11/zidane_narrowweb__300x375,0.jpg

hajialibaig
October 10, 2008, 09:03 AM
So how much time has passed in the bleach world since Hitsugaya fought Luppi?

delapaz13
October 13, 2008, 07:37 PM
Starting oct 14 2008 bleach will air every tuesday and will return to canon material.

New OP and ED

#09: "Velonica" by Aqua Timez (eps 190-)

#17: "Hitohira no Hanabira (ヒトヒラのハナビラ)" by Stereo Pony (eps 190-)
Official website:

2008-10-14
190.
Hueco Mundo Chapter, Restart!
Weko Mundo hen, saikai!
堕ウェコムンド編、再開!
2008-10-21
191.
Szayel Aporro's Theater
The Frightening Banquet, Szayel Aporro's Theater
(堕ザエルアポロ劇場)
Zaeruaporo gekijou
恐宴, ザエルアポロ劇場
Osore en, ZAERUAPORO gekijou
2008-10-28
192.
Nel's Secret
Nel's Secret, a Big-Breasted Beauty Joins the Battle?!
(堕ネルの秘密)
Neru no himitsu
ネルの秘密, 巨乳美女参戦!?
Neru no himitsu, kyonyuu bijo sansen!?
2008-11-04
193.
The Irresistable, Puppet Show of Terror
抵抗不能、恐怖の人形劇
Teikou funou, kyoufu no ningyou geki

Onomatopoeia
October 14, 2008, 02:15 PM
HOw in the world will they be able to get back to the original plot? It went from Hueco Mundo, fighting GJ with Nnoitra about to kick Ichigo's ass in like 5 minutes to SS? How are they explaining this? Did I miss something?

darkband
October 14, 2008, 02:27 PM
They aren't explaining. They are just saying that it happened now it's over with. It seems kinda like it happens after HM, but they are never going to bother explaining. They are simply going to pick up where they interrupted and pretend like it never happened.

ryanzokuken
October 14, 2008, 02:30 PM
as they should, since everyone understands that filler never actually happens and has no real place in the story or timeline anyways.

Onomatopoeia
October 14, 2008, 03:27 PM
The Hell? Can't they at least make an attempt at continuance?

darkband
October 14, 2008, 03:35 PM
You know you would complain even more if they attempted it. They would screw it up so badly that everyone would be saying "why did they have to make such a stupid explanation?"

Simply they don't because they can't pull it off believably. IMHO they made the right choice.

Omi_XII
October 14, 2008, 07:42 PM
as they should, since everyone understands that filler never actually happens and has no real place in the story or timeline anyways.

Actually, most people I talk to only watch the Anime. I'm one of the few people I know ( Not counting everyone in this forum) That actually reads the manga, so this could be very confusing.

I was never happy with the fillers, i never watched the, the bountou or this other one. i wasn't impressed they introduced a new captain and hoped to god he didn't stay as one.

Onomatopoeia
October 14, 2008, 07:52 PM
He didn't stay as one, right?

darkband
October 14, 2008, 08:54 PM
No, he committed suicide after he found out that his entire revenge was stupid. So he's dead. They had to tie it up someway and they chose the death route.

Andonan
October 16, 2008, 03:32 AM
Look we all called this, seriously sometimes i think the people making the anime don't even read the manga and are just getting lucky with always get the plot correct LOL

They entered HM thinking it was going to be really quick, then realised they werebloody wrong and then went "oh well let's just do a random filler that makes no sense no one will care" and none of us do LOL

akatsuki27
October 16, 2008, 12:31 PM
hey, maybe im late in bringing this up but, since bleach the anime has gone back to hueco mundo arc, i was watching some of those episodes again...and i realized there is a plot hole in the manga (another one)...

didnt aizen say that the arrancars that went karakura with grimmjow that were killed were gillians??? well in grimmjows flashback of when he met his would be fracciones, werent they shown to be adjuhcas then??? was this another screw up by kubo?

redcometfm
October 16, 2008, 02:46 PM
they went down a level most likely when grimmjow took a bite out of them to gain more power, like they asked him to

hyn_pride93
October 16, 2008, 04:34 PM
When Grimm was eating all of them is most likely when they went down in power. So I agree with you red. That's why Grimm is an espada though. If it wasn't for his comrade hollows, then he wouldn't be the sixth espada and have all of that power that he's got as of, before he was utterly defeated by Ichigo/Noi. :d

Akagami.Shanks
October 17, 2008, 09:01 AM
I think the top 4 espada are real Vaste Lords. that's why there is so much gap between them and the other espada, which makes me wonder, why did Aizen start his attack before gathering 10 vaste lordes under his command, and where are the remaining vaste Lordes? and who is the real king of Hueco Mundo.
I also predict that Aizen will get the key and go up to kill the king. therefore we will have another arc where we can see the top Captains and see the final battles.

Andonan
October 17, 2008, 09:27 AM
No i disagree if there is a battle arc and the captains lose in this one, they won't make another appearance in my mind. That's why Kubo is going to make them shine now :D

P e i n
October 17, 2008, 11:50 PM
No i disagree if there is a battle arc and the captains lose in this one, they won't make another appearance in my mind. That's why Kubo is going to make them shine now :D

He's been making the captains shine for sometime now while exaggerating the Espada like Godly. This is silly, we're most likely going to see Ichigo beat Ulquiorra when he couldn't even leave a scratch on him when he went Vizard mode prior to the Grimmjow fight.

Andonan
October 17, 2008, 11:57 PM
@Pein

That's why we have all been saying that Ichigo needs a power-up, and we have all been saying this for at least 2 months, I know your new Pein but we're not idiots lol

P e i n
October 18, 2008, 12:27 AM
@Pein

That's why we have all been saying that Ichigo needs a power-up, and we have all been saying this for at least 2 months, I know your new Pein but we're not idiots lol

Damn! lol. Who knows, he may just bump into old man zangetsu on his travels to Ulq. I think he might win from something like a memory or a saying... something sweet :eyeroll

Andonan
October 18, 2008, 02:42 AM
Yeah well it will be either by Zangetsu powering up his Bankai, or the "true hollow power" Hichigo referred too when Ichigo mastered his hollow mask....

genkizen
October 18, 2008, 07:14 AM
I really hope it's old man zangetsu. We haven't seen him in forever. Plus Ichigo really needs to learn something new from his bankai. Getting tired of just getsuga tenshou

P e i n
October 18, 2008, 08:31 AM
I wonder why zangetsu's personality is nothing like Ichigo's like how the other zanpaktou's relate to their wielders

Andonan
October 18, 2008, 07:51 PM
He does relate to Ichigo, except Ichigo has now opted to take power from his Hollow rather than his sword, which I think was a massive mistake, and I'm sure there will be a massive draw back from being a Vizard.....

delapaz13
October 18, 2008, 07:54 PM
After all the espada are all defeated aizen will call for technical support to get out of jokaku enjo and the real espada (all vastolordes) will appear with wonderwyce margera

Andonan
October 18, 2008, 07:59 PM
I reckon the top 4 are Vastolordes, why are all the Manga's stalling at the moment, oh well, but if I don't see some captains vs Espada soon *glares at Kubo*

P e i n
October 20, 2008, 10:03 PM
Most of these mangas move forward together and stall together at the same time. Really strange.

Andonan
October 22, 2008, 08:11 AM
I think they all have a big group session before wriing the chapters making sure none of them outdo each other any week and also to better piss the readers off LOL

gigantor21
October 24, 2008, 02:43 PM
^ Oda seems to have missed several of those meetings, then. :XD

I'm not going to restart OP or Naruto until Thanksgiving, though. I'm just hoping I don't get spoiled before then...

And I doubt we'll see the Captain-Espada fights anytime soon. My guess is that we'll cut back to HM as soon as the current fights are finished--so we can see Rukia and Co. fight the Exequias. JUST TO PISS US OFF. :XD

Andonan
October 24, 2008, 05:41 PM
I could stop reading Bleach but not Naruto I reckon, but anyway.....

Is it just me or is Rukiabeating the number 9 espada actually looking plausible in comparison to some of the power crap that gone on in the last half dozen chapters....

Tsukisama
October 24, 2008, 06:07 PM
Is it just me or is Rukiabeating the number 9 espada actually looking plausible in comparison to some of the power crap that gone on in the last half dozen chapters....

Well, I have usually found her performance against Aaroniero to be fairly acceptable. Before that, we did not really have a good measure of her abilities. The only other times we have seen her fight as a shinigami (i.e., with Ichigo not having taken her energy) is in the very first chapter, against D-Roy, and her brief attack directed towards GJ in KK Town.

Her condition in the first chapter is a little sketchy to base our opinions of her on, because we know that Urahara wanted her to use the energy-draining gigai. Thus, I still have suspicions that he did something to her make her weaker and eventually need to use a gigai. Whether that is the case or not remains to be seen.

Her easy defeat of D-Roy would have been worth some merit if the other arrancar had not explained it away as him being barely worth calling an arrancar. As for her brief fight against GJ (in which she was not really even the focus), all that told us is that she was no match for GJ, whom at the time was someone even too strong for Ichigo (and no one would expect Rukia to be stronger or even as strong as Ichigo for obvious story-related reasons). Thus, Rukia's strength and abilities post-Hougyoku placed her somewhere beneath GJ but well above D-Roy.

The next fight is against Aaroniero in which Rukia gets full focus and exploration of her fighting strength. Thus, I would say that her fight with Aaroniero was her character-defining fight and should be used as the basis for judging her strength until she gets another fight with focus on her, which is likely to occur against the Exequias leader.

Rukia almost died defeating Aaroniero, and some of the credit for her victory goes to Aaroniero's conveniently poor decisions in the fight. So, yeah, I can believe Rukia's performance.

Andonan
October 24, 2008, 06:12 PM
Very true Tsukisama and very well structured, but my problem is that Rukia isn't even I VC, and as far as I know weaker than even 3rd seat, considering we don't know her position, but know it's none of the top you would figure she shouldn't be able to take on an Espada, unless maybe it was 10, but it was 9, crazy....... But hey that's why I'm now saying its acceptable when you compare it to Kenpachi vs Ichigo, Kenpachi vs Noitra, Every fight so far in this current arc LOL!

Tsukisama
October 24, 2008, 06:26 PM
Very true Tsukisama and very well structured, but my problem is that Rukia isn't even I VC, and as far as I know weaker than even 3rd seat, considering we don't know her position, but know it's none of the top you would figure she shouldn't be able to take on an Espada, unless maybe it was 10, but it was 9, crazy....... But hey that's why I'm now saying its acceptable when you compare it to Kenpachi vs Ichigo, Kenpachi vs Noitra, Every fight so far in this current arc LOL!

Well, it has already been established that Rukia's lack of a ranking position is not due to her skills a shinigami. It has been stated in the manga that Byakuya specifically has prevented her from gaining any sort of seated position out of his protectiveness of her. (I don't really feel like searching for it at the moment, but if you would like, I can do it a little later. :))

gigantor21
October 24, 2008, 07:19 PM
I think the main problem there wasn't the outcome itself. For me, the problem was that Rukia got to use the third dance in the first place. Why wasn't the jar reinforced? How could Aaroniero run around with such a glaring weakness? It was too convenient for her.

CrimsonANBU
October 24, 2008, 07:46 PM
Ichigo might get some cool hollow armor like Chad's? Does this mean Chad gets leg armor...and a mask? Man watching Fight Club...now THAT'S fighting...Kubo can learn from it...ANYWAYS If those 2 hanging bodies are "Royal Guards" then the king is soo f**ked in the ass he doesn't know it yet...Rukia won fair and square...its not her fault if the Espada she was fighting had a larger ego than that of his ginormous body...plus...putting your opponent right next to your weakest part of your "steel body"...a glass part...you deserve to die...Why is Ishida soo damn weak? actually hes not "weak" per say...but his softness...that's a weakness...being analytical about a battle...DURING IT...that's a major weakness...plus going against people that have already "studied" you in and out...not very smart for someone like the top ranked guy in your class...

Andonan
October 24, 2008, 07:50 PM
Oh i never realised about Rukia, i guess that makes a lot of sense then ahaha

Theb I just hope Soifon kills this bitch in page and then we can see Hitsuyuga beat Halibel (oh yes i went there ahaha)

CrimsonANBU
October 24, 2008, 08:09 PM
how can you compare Kenpatchi to Ichigo?
1.) He doesn't even have a shikai state yet
2.) He milks battles for his enjoyment
3.) Ichigo is the main character...I mean the anime may not be named after him like "Naruto" maybe but named after his hair color
4.) Ichigo is 2 fast for Kenpatchi...if you think about it...grimmjow would be a hard time for Kenpatchi(unless he gets hit then its in Ken's favor)
5.) Ichigo has Goku syndrome in the sense that it takes a ridiculous short time to power up
6.) Kenpatchi is my favorite but as he is now Ichigo would just demolish Ken...but then again if Kenpatchi is true to kendo...Ichigo would be sliced in half...end
[hr]
These crappy "Fraccion" battles are pissing me off...If it takes more than a few pages to kill an "fraccion" then wtf? Are they stronger than that sixth Espada(forgot his name don't care cuz if you think about its not important)but those captain match ups in HM were excellent...Captain that has pride vs Espada that has pride...Captain that likes to fight vs Espada that likes to fight...Ichigo vs Grimmjow...Scientist vs Scientist...Assasins vs Medics? o.O that does not make any sense at all...but ohh well...
[hr]
Hitsu is perfectly capable of taking on an Espada...but if she is number 2 like I think she is(w00t stark numba 1) its gonna be a long battle...I mean LONNNGGG as in flash back in between(CrimsonANBU said it first) back to something...but he has a cool Zanpaktou..its sofa king kool...he just is a kid I guess...doesn't know his potential yet...

Andonan
October 24, 2008, 08:34 PM
Lol I like Goku syndrome :p

Exactly only a dozen or so chapters into this arc and I'm already starting to think favourably of HM, compared to this....So far I actually enjoyed the pillar fights more than any of these fraccion fights/build ups.....I enjoyed seeing Yamichika's and 69's releases they were cool, from Po it's been a continual downward spiral....

Onomatopoeia
October 24, 2008, 09:07 PM
Ah God the AA fight was so cheap.

Is it not BS that Rukia has a Third Dance that is never even hinted at that only works in the most special of circumstances(that conveniantly happened), was perfectly made for a situation that is one in a million and had almost no chance of happening ,that if AA had been about an inch to the left or right would have never had happened, that Rukia was still even alive after getting a trident stuck through her and should have stoped her breathing long before she pulled it off, that Rukia sword was just long enough, that AA was stupid enough to not make a glass jar reinforced to block Zans(despite the fact that it's his weak point) etc.

CrimsonANBU
October 24, 2008, 09:22 PM
I like Goku syndrome as well...its the whole DBZ syndrome Kubo has going that is really annoying...it will take another 4 months before this whole thing ends...I mean in Naruto the storyline is progressing real nice(manga if you watch the anime after the first 100 filler episodes were worthless...believe it...no no...I meant to piss ppl off...I don't watch it in English...though I must say they actually did an ok job with bleach...not great but it was tolerable...

patedecarne
October 24, 2008, 10:56 PM
Regarding the Rukia vs Aaroniero fight, IMO that fight was weel constructed on all the possible aspects;

Tsuki has provided us great explanations about the "physical, melee" aspect in that fight, which makes so much sense, but aside this, I'd like to add the "emotional" aspect there;

More than anyone else, in that fight, Rukia wasn't fighting exactly against Aaroniero, but rather she was fighting against her inner demons. Rukia never had forgiven herself for what happened with Kaien, and I bet you that Rukia still has nightmares about it. Even knowing that it would be impossible, I'm sure Rukia was waiting one, just one chance, to face Kaien again, having a small conversation about the past, and she had this chance in that fight.

Yes, it's true that Kaien wasn't the real one, but for one moment, Rukia didn't care about it, and seeing Kaien again was a priceless moment for her;

Because Kain left his heart with her(methaphorically speaking), Rukia was able to draw a power that allows her not only defeat Aaroniero, but the defeat her inner demons too;

In those chapters, it was as if we almost could feel and share the same drama that Rukia was living; dramatic moments and the will to honor Kaien's memory were the fuel to Rukia, in one of the most fateful and perfect fights I've seen on my life ^^


Oh, and concerning Rukia and her ranking position, you guys can find the reference here (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/202/04/). Chappy states that Rukia has the ability to be a seated officed, but Byakuya didn't allow this ^^

Andonan
October 25, 2008, 01:15 AM
Damn pate you had to go and use the cliche didn't you "inner demons" *GROAN*

But I know what you mean, still doesn't mean i have to like the fight but I agree that Tsuki explained it well and made me except that it was an acceptable senario....

On the other hand I would like to see someone explain how Shikai Ichigo > Kendo Kenpachi (he was holding the sword in 2 hands people) > Released Noitra > Normal Noitra > Bankai Ichigo LOL! (even if he was tired out Ichigo has moments of brilliance in his attacking pattern that had no affect (his sword couldn't even cut him)

000
October 25, 2008, 11:09 AM
Shikai Ichigo > Kendo Kenpachi (he was holding the sword in 2 hands people) > Released Noitra > Normal Noitra > Bankai Ichigo LOL! (even if he was tired out Ichigo has moments of brilliance in his attacking pattern that had no affect (his sword couldn't even cut him)
First, kendo is not only about holding your zan with two hands, it is a specific way of striking. From Ken-chan's side in that battle it was a stab rather when kendo strike. So, it was only
Shikai Ichigo ~> no-evepatch Kenpachi.
Besides, http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/113/08/ , and http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/113/10/

And, Bankai Ichigo in his "fight" with Nnoitra had barely half his reiatsu left, not to mention the damage from the previous fight. And as everybody knows, if your current spirit pressure is less than opponent's by certain level, you will not be able to damage him/her.

Fox666
October 26, 2008, 03:29 PM
Ichigo mask protected him, so its was a "half-vizard" Shikai Ichigo. Even after releasing that Bankai that Ichigo became overconfident and defeated Byakuya, he was scared of fighting Kenpachi "I can't believe I fought a guy that strong".

Ichigo reitasu can be very powerfull, remember that Ulquiorra said that some times Ichigo reiatsu surprass his own.

Other than all:
Kenpachi without eyepachi > Noitoira not released > Grimmjow not released >> Ichigo Bankai > Byakuya
I think that the difference of power between Kenpachi and Byakuya is very clear. It's not relevant Ichigo fighting them, since his power is instable.

CrimsonANBU
October 26, 2008, 07:49 PM
Ichigo was really could have faced Noitra and won if he hadn't faced Grimmjow..Ichigo wasn't trying to kill Grimmjow per say...he was just trying to defeat him... Noitra however would have been a killing exception...Ichigo tried to kill kenpatchi cuz he really had no choice...i think it would have been the same with Noitra... and if he hadn't been fighting grimmjow...i think ichigo would have won...im not saying he would have done it with his eyes closed im just saying he would have won...
[hr]

First, kendo is not only about holding your zan with two hands, it is a specific way of striking.

Kendo is a Japanese Fencing style not pertaining to a certain school or master. In general is is the way of the sword for most Samurai. Certain masters however use different styles as an added bonus to knowing the "basic" form of kendo...Kendo in theory is the art of taking ones sword and swiftly dealing a death blow. This requires focus and a sound mind. Kenpatchi did not want to use this in the beginning because dealing the death blow is not in him...he likes to prolong fights. He just reached a point where the option was to kill or be killed. Hence using kendo he dealt a death blow and that was it...Kenpatchi could have just killed ichigo in the beginning...but if he did the whole basis of his character would be farce and he would cease to be kenpatchi

Old_Mate
October 26, 2008, 08:12 PM
On the other hand I would like to see someone explain how Shikai Ichigo > Kendo Kenpachi (he was holding the sword in 2 hands people) > Released Noitra > Normal Noitra > Bankai Ichigo LOL! (even if he was tired out Ichigo has moments of brilliance in his attacking pattern that had no affect (his sword couldn't even cut him)

This might sound like a dumb question, but when did Kenpachi use his Kendo on Ichigo?

I looked through the fight and the only pages I could see that looked like he may have had two hands on his sword was this one (http://img56.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/00000112/09.jpg) - bottom middle panel (however you can see that his second hand isn’t even gripping the sword).

This one (http://img56.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/00000113/06.jpg) - top left panel (although he is only changing his sword from his left hand back to his right hand, because he had just taken his eye patch off with his right hand)

And this last shot (http://img56.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/00000113/16.jpg) may look like he has two hands on his sword, but you can see that Kenpachi can’t be gripping his sword with two hands because Zangetsu is lodged in between his left hand and his sword, and also during the lead up to the clash, you can see in the bottom right panel (http://img56.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/00000113/13.jpg) that Kenpachi only has one hand on his sword anyway (his left arm is separated from his sword, in contrast to the way Ichigo is holding his sword). But I don’t know, maybe I missed something?

Andonan
October 27, 2008, 06:42 AM
You know what I concede defeat LOL I thought for some reason that Kenpachi was holding the sword with two hands in his fight with Ichigo, I'm sorry i got that wrong *shrug* :)

patedecarne
October 27, 2008, 06:56 AM
Concerning Noitora vs Ichigo subject, well, this is really a difficult one;

First: was just me, or Noitora was fighting at the same level of Grimmjow? I mean, do you guys really notice some levels's difference between Noitora and Grimmjow? With everything we've seen in those fights, I couldn't find differences on their powers, mainly after the release: Grimm was possibly the espada with the most notable gap of power while in released mode, whereas Noitora only has gained more arms;

If not by those 5 spikes, I think Ichigo would have won his fight against Grimm somewhat easily, and probably, against Noi, the fight would have the very same results...

gigantor21
October 27, 2008, 08:43 AM
^ Hmm...I don't know, Pat. They were presented as being even before Ichigo was hit by the bombs--it's not like he was clearly outclassing GJ before that. He would've had an easier time, yes, but I don't know if he could've won without Orihime.

Also, we don't know if Ichigo could even cut Nnoi without the mask, let alone beat him. He wasn't able to hurt GJ without the mask, and Nnoi has much, much tougher Hierro. But his odds are good if he gets around that--Nnoi, for all his boasting, wasn't as fast or versatile as Pantera GJ. Even with 4 extra arms. :p

And there was a clear power difference when Nnoi released. Zaraki was hacking him up unreleased; with Santa Teresa, he couldn't even scratch his scythes. Also, apart from losing an arm in a surprise attack, Nnoi didn't take any hits in release form before the Kendo thing IIRC. That's one of the reasons I hated the fight--it was one-sided in Nnoi's favor until the Kendo thing, and then Zaraki killed him in 2 hits. :eyeroll

Once we saw that fight, I gave up on trying to gauge where Ichigo is strength-wise. Nnoi, who should be WAY stronger than pre-Bankai Ichigo, only managed to pressure Zaraki while released--and was beaten in two hits with Kendo in spite of having the strongest Hierro ever. People say Ichigo was tapping into Vaizard powers against Zaraki--but he had far more Hollow powers AND Bankai against GJ and only won by the skin of his teeth.

In spite of that, Zaraki, who lost to a much weaker Ichigo, soldiered through and killed Nnoi, who was stronger than the opponent Ichigo barely managed to beat. How the hell does that make any goddamned sense? :blink

patedecarne
October 27, 2008, 08:55 AM
you know, gigantor, just to add some notes, the thing I hated most(aside kendopachi), was the fact that, even after the release, every attack Noitora managed to pull off on Kenpachi was useless; it's true that Noitora only took one hit, the fatal one, but well, wh'ts the point of his release if Kenpachi wasn't being pushed back by Noitora?

to sum up:

-Unreleased noitora cut Kenpachi, but seemed that Kenpachi wasn't affected by the attack;

-Released Noitora badly cut Kenpachi's chest, but again, Kenpachi just stand up as if nothing has happened.

C'mon, what was the point of the release, anyway?

Zaraki's stamina just changes according with the enemy and his state??

gigantor21
October 27, 2008, 09:01 AM
^ Yeah, no kidding.

It was already suspect against Ichigo, but there, at least, he actually collapsed at the end. He took at least as much damage against Nnoitora, and not only won, but was still lively enough to charge at Stark when he took Orihime. Kubo boosted his strength several times in that fight with no real explanation.

That's been happening a lot lately. :/

hajialibaig
October 27, 2008, 10:42 AM
Okay, lemme clarify something to everyone here:

Kenpachi couldn't have used "Kendo" when he fought Ichigo cause it DID NOT EXIST
Just think about it this way, Kubo > The manga writer, did not possess that idea back when Ichigo fought Kenpachi

But then, when Kenpachi was fighting Nnoitra, Kubo "conveniently" used "Kendo" to end the fight without giving Kenpachi a power up.

Conclusion: as much as you may hate it, Kubo came up with the "Kendo" idea specifically for the Nnoitra fight as a "Cheap" tool to let Kenpachi win (without making sense, and leaving half of the readers with WTF? expressions)

END OF RANT

gigantor21
October 27, 2008, 04:10 PM
^ LOL Most of us are fully aware of that. It's exactly what bothered me about it.

In hindsight, there are a lot of things that were probably weren't envisioned from day 1. Kubo himself said he thought of Captains later; I'm sure Bankai wasn't, given how much hype Shikai had, and I doubt Shikai was around either. Also, Rukia never mentioned anything about the Kidou Corps or the Special Ops, or even what division she was from.

Granted, he might not have mentioned some of it, but I doubt that's true for everything.

ryanzokuken
October 27, 2008, 05:19 PM
i still can't see the big problem with Kendopachi....:s

first off, and i probably don't even have to say this, i assume everyone has at least some idea of what Kendo really is, but:


kendo is more than just gripping your sword with two hands. that was the main point Kenpachi talked about, because he was telling of how much more powerful your strikes are with two hands, which directly relates to Noitora's hierro. more powerful swing = better damage against the super iron tough skin.

Kenpachi using kendo doesn't just make his strikes stronger. if he uses kendo, he's also using much more skill as far as swordfighting. we didn't see this, because it only took the one big hit to really seal Noitora's fate. but kendo is a martial art in itself, and a skilled user's swordplay skills dwarf those of someone just swinging a blade.


now take Kenpachi's already godly strength and reiatsu, which gives him unbelievable sword strikes (like his Advent Children-style building cleaving slash, which he did standing perfectly still on both feet, using nothing but his right arm) and add the power, skill, and focus of kendo to him. Kenpachi used a mighty "men" cut (usually the main strike when in a high stance, sword coming straight down from over the head).

what is so crazy and hard to swallow about that?


(not to mention the fact that Noitora charged right into the attack)

gigantor21
October 27, 2008, 06:20 PM
what is so crazy and hard to swallow about that?

Oh, there's plenty. Don't worry about that. :XD

First off, think back to the other matches we've seen in the series so far. How many times have we seen people switch between one-handed and two-handed grips? And how many times has two hands produced a such a huge improvement? Zaraki went from being blocked easily with one hand to slashing through Nnoitora + 3-4 scythes with two. There's no precedent for that.

Second, we don't know nearly enough about reiatsu usage to say whether or not Kendo makes sense. The main push behind every physical attack is reiatsu output and refinement, but Zaraki didn't show any increase in either one--both of which would've made a hell of a lot more sense. Also, we can assume that people concentrate their reiatsu into specific body parts during physical attacks, but it's just as likely that Kubo uses the DBZ system too. So we know that "two hands are better than one" for people, but who's to say that applies to spirits?

Third, as my friend Anonymoo so eloquently put it, chuudan-no-kamae (the stance Zaraki took) =/= Kendo. He could've figured "hey, I should use both hands this time" and done the same thing--and yield the same results. That's all he did, really. As far as I can tell, Kubo tacked the "Kendo" term on to make the attack look more legit, which was really condescending.

But for me, the most important thing isn't whether it was believable for not. My main problem was how underwhelming it was. It was like Kubo had run out of ideas for the fight, so he threw in "Kendo" and made it uber-powerful so he could put the match behind him. I'm sure he could've come up with something better--and more convincing.

hajialibaig
October 27, 2008, 09:09 PM
Conclusion: as much as you may hate it, Kubo came up with the "Kendo" idea specifically for the Nnoitra fight as a "Cheap" tool to let Kenpachi win (without making sense, and leaving half of the readers with WTF? expressions)



I stand corrected.

As gigantor21 put it, Kubo conveniently labeled the move as "Kendo" to put the fight behind him.

Now it's always a good idea to try and throw some sense in what you read/see, as it helps understand what is going on. But when it comes to Kendopachi, that is where trying to make sense of it doesn't work. Why you may ask? Lemme tell you: kendopachi is FUNDAMENTALLY flawed....as it was created for the sole purpose of ending the fight without any further effort.

I hope that everyone here realizes that Kendopachi is nothing but a tool used by Kubo to end a flopped fight. So no matter how hard you may try to make sense out of it, it's futile (sadly).

patedecarne
October 27, 2008, 10:00 PM
i still can't see the big problem with Kendopachi....:s

first off, and i probably don't even have to say this, i assume everyone has at least some idea of what Kendo really is, but:


that was exactly the problem ^^

I can assure you, two hands are everything but a powerup; i practiced Kendo, Kenjutsu for about 6 years, even using real katanas, and I couldn't understand why two hands are superior of one hand;

it's about personal preference; but Kubo just turned the two hands into a powerup, when in reality, it isn't such powerup;
italked with my sensei about how two hands can be a powerup, and he just thought that was a bad joke, because, to us, Kendo masters, what Kubo did was totally ridiculous;

Kubo just has created a bad excuse to give a cheap win for Zaraki, that's why so many people here are complaining...

gigantor21
October 27, 2008, 10:22 PM
^ Just out of curiosity, I tried doing the same thing as Zaraki did to see if it made the swing harder. With an umbrella. :p

With two hands, most of the force was still created by my right arm. The left arm was more of a stabilizer than an amplifier; the swing wasn't much stronger.

Granted, I've never even touched a kunai, let alone a real sword. What does the two hand grip do, Pat?

ryanzokuken
October 27, 2008, 10:29 PM
that was exactly the problem ^^

I can assure you, two hands are everything but a powerup; i practiced Kendo, Kenjutsu for about 6 years, even using real katanas, and I couldn't understand why two hands are superior of one hand;

it's about personal preference; but Kubo just turned the two hands into a powerup, when in reality, it isn't such powerup;
italked with my sensei about how two hands can be a powerup, and he just thought that was a bad joke, because, to us, Kendo masters, what Kubo did was totally ridiculous;

Kubo just has created a bad excuse to give a cheap win for Zaraki, that's why so many people here are complaining...


so you swing your sword with the same force one-handed as you do with two?:p

kidding. i get what you're saying. i also took a kendo class for a little bit (only about a year before i left for college).
i know two hands shouldn't send your power up the meter and through the roof, but the point is, using both arms makes your strike stronger than using one.

place this in the bleach world where people's muscles are worlds stronger than real life muscles, and add reiatsu into the mix, and add all that to Kenpachi, the melee, close range beast of bleach, who is already godly strong and overflowing with reiatsu, and it makes for one hell of a strike.

it's not like Noitora was completely fresh, and it's not like Kenpachi wasn't cutting him earlier in the fight when he was fighting with one hand.

Kenpachi grips the sword with two hands and does a sturdy, strong, straight on, all-raw-power strike which Noitora runs headlong into like a crazy man, and there's your recipe for an arrancar split down the middle.

Andonan
October 28, 2008, 04:00 AM
You know what irritates me more than just Kenpachi getting this great power up that should have always existed and didn't use against Ichigo....WHY NOT JUST KEPACHI A SHIKAI! Or at least the power to use his Shikai dependent on if it's like Ichigo's or not.....Why did Kubo make up this elaborate Kendo technique when there was a very simple answer laying in front of everyone's eyes *sigh*

patedecarne
October 28, 2008, 07:11 AM
^ Just out of curiosity, I tried doing the same thing as Zaraki did to see if it made the swing harder. With an umbrella. :p

With two hands, most of the force was still created by my right arm. The left arm was more of a stabilizer than an amplifier; the swing wasn't much stronger.

Granted, I've never even touched a kunai, let alone a real sword. What does the two hand grip do, Pat?

LOL, haha an umbrella!

But you're right, using two hands don't exactly give you more raw power or strength; like I said before, it's just a matter of preference; and the most important detail: if one person cannot win with just one hand, this person cannot win with two hand either, because both of them have their advantages and disadvantages, but neither is better them the other;

Oh, two hands is really a stabilizer, try this example and you'll see for yourself ^^
hold the umbrella with his right hand and place your arms just in front of you, but don't use your left arm yet, you'll clearly lose your balance, because the weight of the umbrella will be only on your right hand, and you'll be shaking as consequence. now use the left arm too: clearly you'll see how the balance was stabilized ^^^Another use for two hand is vertical attacks: with two hands, it's almost impossible to lose the balance when attacking from down to up, usually with one hand, just a single attack from the enemy will be enough to take off the sword from your hand, and from up to down, there's no need to worry about an extra step when using two hands (with just one hand, there's about 90% that you'll give one extra step due the balance lose, try this too, gig, try to use the umbrella with just one hand from up to down and you'll know the problem!)

Zaraki has unleashed a violent blow to defeat Noitora, but in reality, such attack only has served to purpose to keep the balance of Zaraki; He did right using two hands on a vertical attack, but why that attack was so powerful to defeat Noitora is beyond me >.>

gigantor21
October 28, 2008, 09:32 AM
^ In other words, even the basic physical premise behind Zaraki's kendo was BS?

Well, gee whiz. That just makes it look even dumber. And Kubo could've easily gotten around it with A) a spiritual explanation (producing more power by putting twice the energy into the blade) or B) some research, which would've scuttled the whole thing and got him to think of something else. Wow.

patedecarne
October 28, 2008, 12:00 PM
Yeah, unfortunately...

if he were to plan something like: my reiatsu is flowing through my body, each arm holds an incredible amount of reiatsu, and should I join both of arms, the reiatsu will double, would be a way more reasonable explanation...

Well, just for curiosity, seeing all the latest chapter make me wonder how good would be the next Bleach game ^^

We have an incredible roster of characters to be used, even VC and fraccions could take place on the next game ^^

ryanzokuken
October 28, 2008, 12:28 PM
LOL, haha an umbrella!

But you're right, using two hands don't exactly give you more raw power or strength; like I said before, it's just a matter of preference; and the most important detail: if one person cannot win with just one hand, this person cannot win with two hand either, because both of them have their advantages and disadvantages, but neither is better them the other;

Oh, two hands is really a stabilizer, try this example and you'll see for yourself ^^
hold the umbrella with his right hand and place your arms just in front of you, but don't use your left arm yet, you'll clearly lose your balance, because the weight of the umbrella will be only on your right hand, and you'll be shaking as consequence. now use the left arm too: clearly you'll see how the balance was stabilized ^^^Another use for two hand is vertical attacks: with two hands, it's almost impossible to lose the balance when attacking from down to up, usually with one hand, just a single attack from the enemy will be enough to take off the sword from your hand, and from up to down, there's no need to worry about an extra step when using two hands (with just one hand, there's about 90% that you'll give one extra step due the balance lose, try this too, gig, try to use the umbrella with just one hand from up to down and you'll know the problem!)

Zaraki has unleashed a violent blow to defeat Noitora, but in reality, such attack only has served to purpose to keep the balance of Zaraki; He did right using two hands on a vertical attack, but why that attack was so powerful to defeat Noitora is beyond me >.>

not trying to be a jerk or argue, but the whole deal you explained yourself about being off balance because of the weight being only in the one hand serves to support two hands equaling a more powerful strike.

a real katana is heavy. much heavier than people seem to think. sure, they're rather light as far as other swords go (extremely light in comparison to medieval type swords) but they're still heavy.

swinging it with one arm, you can't swing as fast or as hard unless you spin around to get more momentum. your muscles are working to support the weight AND deliver a strong swing.

with two, you're not just stabilizing your balance and taking off some of the weight strain, but also adding a whole other arm's worth of muslce and strength to the swing.

no, it won't make a difference of cutting bamboo to cutting titanium, but it DOES increase your strike power as well as steady your blade for maximum accuracy and usage of the sharp edge and it will make a considerable difference in a fight.

as a kendo practitioner, go into a match and fight the whole time using your shinai in only one hand, while your opponent uses two.
A) they will kick your ass due to more control and more strength, powering through your blocks and parries and easily stopping your strikes.
B) using one hand, you are no longer using correct form for the art in general, unless it is a draw strike or a brief, unorthadox move.

i don't even think an official would allow you to use only one hand.

nichendrix
October 28, 2008, 12:48 PM
as a kendo practitioner, go into a match and fight the whole time using your shinai in only one hand, while your opponent uses two.
A) they will kick your ass due to more control and more strength, powering through your blocks and parries and easily stopping your strikes.
B) using one hand, you are no longer using correct form for the art in general, unless it is a draw strike or a brief, unorthadox move.

i don't even think an official would allow you to use only one hand.

Most Niten Ichi Ryu stances were one handed strikes (obviously due to the fact you fight with two swords), but before we learn how to fight with Nittô, instances we learn how to fight with just one hand with each sword (Shinai/Bokutô and Kodachi/Shotô). Since you can fight with Nittô instances on offical Kendo competitions, I think it's possible to use fight with a shinai held in one hand (never tried to do it with just a shinai, so I'm not shure). But one I saw Master Kishikawa winning a fight with a one handed Dô strike after a Taiatairi.

ryanzokuken
October 28, 2008, 02:11 PM
a dô being done one handed is understandable. as i noted, draw strikes from a sheathed stance or even just a low stance are often done with one hand as the other may be gripping your saya or just not necessary as bringing it out accross your body the opposite way is awkward and may limit the range of your swing, and strikes from such a stance are typically dô strikes.

a dô cut, however, is not generally a power-type strike. its best used as a passing cut to the side where armor is generally weak.


none of this is particularly relevant to Kenpachi, though.

A) regardless of stances and circumstantial "can'be" facts, what Kenpachi used was a men cut, which is best done with two hands, as, i would say, a men cut, more so than any other, would be quite difficult to generate a good amount of strength in with just one arm.

and B) truth within real life, like our physics and human body capabilites, do not apply.


yes, the finish to the fight could have been done more intelligently and made more interesting, but the point is, there really is nothing ridiculous about that one big kendo strike being strong and cutting through Noi.

nichendrix
October 29, 2008, 02:48 AM
a dô being done one handed is understandable. as i noted, draw strikes from a sheathed stance or even just a low stance are often done with one hand as the other may be gripping your saya or just not necessary as bringing it out accross your body the opposite way is awkward and may limit the range of your swing, and strikes from such a stance are typically dô strikes.

a dô cut, however, is not generally a power-type strike. its best used as a passing cut to the side where armor is generally weak.


none of this is particularly relevant to Kenpachi, though.

A) regardless of stances and circumstantial "can'be" facts, what Kenpachi used was a men cut, which is best done with two hands, as, i would say, a men cut, more so than any other, would be quite difficult to generate a good amount of strength in with just one arm.

and B) truth within real life, like our physics and human body capabilites, do not apply.


yes, the finish to the fight could have been done more intelligently and made more interesting, but the point is, there really is nothing ridiculous about that one big kendo strike being strong and cutting through Noi.

Interestingly, is that to me is that Kenpachi always seemed to me the Jodan/Waki type of guy, you know powerfull strokes cutting the opponent in half through their chests are almost the image o Kenpachi. So it really suprised me when he got to use a men stroke and started using a Men that came from a Chudan kamae. I think it would be cool if that Men came directly from a Jodan, giving Kempachi an even more powerfull/menancing look.

Better if it was a Tzuki done from a Chudan Kamae, but instead of just piercing Nnoitra, cutting off his head too.

Andonan
November 01, 2008, 06:43 AM
oh well the entire ending sequence of that fight was so bad anyway *sigh*

lazybear
November 02, 2008, 10:56 AM
was re-reading the part of the HM arc, where zaraki kenpachi explains to ichigo how the captains are there, and something stood out to me. not sure if this was covered, but kenpachi said that old man yama talked to urahara to see if he could open the gargantusiadjfnasf whatever door/portal, so that captain class shinigami could pass thru at full power. what caught my eye, was that yama was in communication w/ urahara. so does yama know that urahara wasnt to blame for the hollowfication of the first vizards? if central 46(or whatever # it is) was so inclined on punishing him, tsukabishi, yoruichi, and the original vizards, why is old man yama communicating with him so easily?

gigantor21
November 02, 2008, 11:29 AM
^ Given how strict Yama is, my guess is that he figures Urahara did his time and paid for his "mistake".He doesn't have the luxury of ignoring an ex-R&D head's help right now, so he's willing to work with him in light of the crisis. It's not like Urahara can ever come back, after all.

Andonan
November 03, 2008, 08:05 AM
What Yama didn't realise that Urahara had paid for his "mistake" Yama realised he's an idiotic prick who was an idiot and was completely wrong when blaming Urahara. The guys a chump and I hop Barragan kicks his old wrinkled ass....

gigantor21
November 03, 2008, 09:24 AM
^ Hmm...well, when you think about it, my guess is that most of the Shinigami believe what Central 46 said. That Urahara was exiled for A) the fake Gigai and B) the Hollowfication of the Vaizards, which was actually Aizen's fault. Somehow, I don't think Urahara would go out of his way to try and clear his name, as he still harbors guilt over his role in everything. I could see him staying in exile even if he's asked to come back--at least until he manages to reverse the conditions of the Vaizards. None of them are happy with being part-hollow after all.

Which brings up another question: once this is over, do you think Ichigo would take that cure? Or would he keep his powers to make sure he could protect everyone?

Tsukisama
November 03, 2008, 12:45 PM
I would agree with Gigantor21. You shouldn't use Yamamoto as a scapegoat for your anger with the management of Soul Society. Central 46 made the decision, not Yamamoto. As Gig pointed out, Urahara probably did not do much to clear his name, and since the court proceedings are likely secret, I doubt that Yamamoto would know everything, but instead would only know what the Central 46 gave out as an official statement.

Given how much of a follower of the rules Yamamoto is, he probably just accepted whatever the Central 46 said without question, just like most of the other shinigami likely did. So, the blame on Yamamoto concerning Urahara's sentencing is really misplaced and should stop. It is not his fault; so don't blame him for that.

Gig, for your question, I would choose the latter option. Ichigo would likely think that he would just deal with the burdens of having a hollow within him, because he would know that much of his power is reliant on his vizard nature.

akatsuki27
November 03, 2008, 01:00 PM
I would agree with Gigantor21. You shouldn't use Yamamoto as a scapegoat for your anger with the management of Soul Society. Central 46 made the decision, not Yamamoto. As Gig pointed out, Urahara probably did not do much to clear his name, and since the court proceedings are likely secret, I doubt that Yamamoto would know everything, but instead would only know what the Central 46 gave out as an official statement.

Given how much of a follower of the rules Yamamoto is, he probably just accepted whatever the Central 46 said without question, just like most of the other shinigami likely did. So, the blame on Yamamoto concerning Urahara's sentencing is really misplaced and should stop. It is not his fault; so don't blame him for that.

Gig, for your question, I would choose the latter option. Ichigo would likely think that he would just deal with the burdens of having a hollow within him, because he would know that much of his power is reliant on his vizard nature.

i'm not sure there is a cure for ichigo...he, i think, is a pure hybrid because of the conditions of when he regained his powers. either way i wouldnt think he would take the cure either

Tsukisama
November 03, 2008, 01:15 PM
i'm not sure there is a cure for ichigo...he, i think, is a pure hybrid because of the conditions of when he regained his powers. either way i wouldnt think he would take the cure either

I also doubt that there is a cure for Ichigo (although having one available at the end of the manga for Ichigo to turn down would be a nice way to end the manga). I think Gig was just trying to get some opinion on Ichigo's character rather than the reality of such a situation occurring.

ryanzokuken
November 03, 2008, 01:36 PM
well after Aizen revealed himself in the SS arc, Yama and everyone else probably realized it was true that it washis doing 101 yeas ago and that Urahara was not to blame. it more than likely became clear to them that Aizen was a bastard for a long time.

Eye of the tiger
November 03, 2008, 01:46 PM
I also doubt that there is a cure for Ichigo (although having one available at the end of the manga for Ichigo to turn down would be a nice way to end the manga). I think Gig was just trying to get some opinion on Ichigo's character rather than the reality of such a situation occurring.

Still, the "cure" is an interesting word, especially in terms of Ichigo, a hybrid of all realms.. He himself may be the "cure" - a human who possesses the capabilities of both shinigami and hollow.. ideally he is someone who should be the king of Bleach creation/bleach world.

Tsukisama
November 03, 2008, 06:08 PM
well after Aizen revealed himself in the SS arc, Yama and everyone else probably realized it was true that it washis doing 101 yeas ago and that Urahara was not to blame. it more than likely became clear to them that Aizen was a bastard for a long time.

I am sure the truth became apparent to everyone who knew the situation 100 years ago. This is why I think Yamamoto and SS have been cooperating with Urahara so much since after the SS arc. I doubt that neither Urahara, Tessai, nor Yoruichi are still being considered outlaws (especially with the Central 46 out of the picture).

We have yet to see any indication since after SS arc that Urahara can't come back to SS, but I think he probably feels comfortable with the life he has for the most part now. Just curious: does anyone think that Urahara would return to SS (or even his old positions) if he was offered? I think that he would respectfully decline.


Still, the "cure" is an interesting word, especially in terms of Ichigo, a hybrid of all realms.. He himself may be the "cure" - a human who possesses the capabilities of both shinigami and hollow.. ideally he is someone who should be the king of Bleach creation/bleach world.

I agree that cure implies that he is diseased or that he has something wrong with him when in reality we don't necessarily need to view Ichigo's state of being in such a negative light.

While Ichigo does cross many bridges, I would prefer that Ichigo not become king and that he would return to his normal life when all of the trouble stops. I would respect him a lot more for doing that. I think the current position of the SS king as a figurehead (or perhaps someone whose importance is not out in the open) is the best for him, which I also think would be a poor job for Ichigo, living behind the scenes like that.

As for perhaps being ruler of all of the worlds, I don't think one is needed or wanted. That seems to be more of a megalomaniacal position. With the megalomania, such a ruler would serve no real purpose. The hollow will continue to exist, and the shinigami will continue to slay them to protect the innocent living souls and to purify the hollows. There can't really be any more balance than there was before Aizen's designs for controlling everything.

gigantor21
November 03, 2008, 07:32 PM
I used the term "cure" because...well, is it normal having a homicidal maniac control half of your powers? :XD

But yeah. Given Shirosaki's statements, and the fact that Urahara and Co are still exiles in light of Aizen's betrayal, I don't know if SS is ready to accept hybrids in any measure yet. That would depend on whether or not it's possible to permanently seal off the hollow through instinct--something Hirako never brought up. I'm thinking that there may be no way to gain complete control over the hollow, and that it's always a work in progress, which is why the Vaizards have stayed in hiding and told Ichigo to join them. But we don't know enough to be sure.

However, Ichigo's efforts during the war may turn that sentiment around. Seeing as Zaraki is more bloodthirsty and Mayuri is more unethical, we know that SS is willing to take on questionables as long as they perform. Ichigo has done plenty for SS as it is--Aizen's plan would've gone off without a hitch had he not gone after Rukia--so he's proven his worth as an ally to them.

Whether he can do the same for Urahara and the Vaizards is another story. But the leverage is there, at least.

And I don't think he'd give up his powers either--it's not his style to hide from challenges, especially those that can help him protect his friends. Shirosaki, as dangerous as he is, is a valuable asset in Ichigo's toolset. His powers aren't strong enough to let him fight on two legs.

Tsukisama
November 03, 2008, 07:56 PM
I used the term "cure" because...well, is it normal having a homicidal maniac control half of your powers? :XD

Well, I think it could be thought of it is more of an unfavorable condition. The other vizards seem to have gained a handle on their hollows; so I don't think it has to be cured really, but it is sort of a disease having a hollow encroach upon your psyche and soul.


But yeah. Given Shirosaki's statements, and the fact that Urahara and Co are still exiles in light of Aizen's betrayal, I don't know if SS is ready to accept hybrids in any measure yet. That would depend on whether or not it's possible to permanently seal off the hollow through instinct--something Hirako never brought up. I'm thinking that there may be no way to gain complete control over the hollow, and that it's always a work in progress, which is why the Vaizards have stayed in hiding and told Ichigo to join them. But we don't know enough to be sure.

However, Ichigo's efforts during the war may turn that sentiment around. Seeing as Zaraki is more bloodthirsty and Mayuri is more unethical, we know that SS is willing to take on questionables as long as they perform. Ichigo has done plenty for SS as it is--Aizen's plan would've gone off without a hitch had he not gone after Rukia--so he's proven his worth as an ally to them.

Whether he can do the same for Urahara and the Vaizards is another story. But the leverage is there, at least.

So, do you think that Urahara is still disallowed by SS to come back in light of the new information? I think he has not returned to SS more so by choice than by legal inability. (The vizards are likely still another story, but Urahara and co. probably could come back if they wanted.)

The vizards coming back would be rather odd though. I know that SS tolerates the assistance from Ichigo (assuming that they are aware of his vizard nature which they may not be), but he doesn't live in SS or anything like that. Ichigo is just an ally of SS just like I could see Nel being granted a bit of amnesty for aiding the SS forces but not being welcomed into SS. The vizards are still part hollow, which I just don't know how that would be accepted or viewed in SS, whose main mission is to slay hollows.

Although on a basic, personal level, I could see them accepting the vizards, but on an ideological level, I don't really see SS welcoming them back. At most, I think the vizards could have amnesty and be allowed to live on Earth without having to hide or worry from persecution just like Urahara does now.

gigantor21
November 03, 2008, 08:31 PM
^ Well we have to remember that Urahara's creation was the main impetus behind most of the conflict in the series--and the reason that Aizen is a serious threat now to begin with. Though it was indirect, and clearly not his intention, there's plenty of blood on his hands. So they may be keeping him at arm's length because they know what he's capable of with enough funding and resources. He knows that, too, which'd explain why he'd stick with low-level entrepreneurship. :p

That's one of the main things I want to see addressed during this War--what Urahara's standing is with SS.

I figure that giving the Vaizard's asylum would be most likely. That's what they're doing with Ichigo, after all--there's no way in hell that they don't know about his mask when they've got Karakura monitored at all times. And they don't have the luxury of turning him away.

Andonan
November 04, 2008, 03:11 AM
This may be completely obvious to some people already, but i think it was Urahara and Tessai who discovered the way in which one can master the Hollow. When you think about it, it was probably Tessai that put up the barrier and then Urahara who fought to hollow forms of the Vizard while they gained complete control over their hollows. I know some of them were already mastering their hollows mid fight with Aizem but I can imagine that being the case post Gaiden arc...

THEREFORE (and why i needed to say that as a prelude to my prediction hehe) I think itis likely that Urahara and the Vizard remain in continual contact. I know they're "on their own side" but i wouldn't be surprised if in fact they are on Urahara's side, and therefore side with whoever he chooses. Plus I wouldn't be surprised if the Vizards and SS have already had discussions about the up-coming battles.

The GodMonster
November 04, 2008, 01:49 PM
There are so many people that hate what happend to the battle between Kempachi & Notoria, constantly repeating how lame it was :notrust.
Let me tell you two things:
First- discussing into the prediction tread for the chapters is bad. It's not relative to the topic and often is quite annoying :notrust.
Second- think about what would have happend if he used kendo in the begining of the battle. Notoria doesn't even stand a chanse against Kempachi with kendo and without eyepatch.
4 or 5 strikes and notoria is into peaces.
When person want to keep his seacrets(kempachi with kendo) in fight doesn't make him weaker against the opponet. Is just that he can die in the end for his decision.

Ichigo against kempatchi kendo straike back then would probably have died.
Nothing more nothing less :amuse.

Tsukisama
November 04, 2008, 03:19 PM
^ Well we have to remember that Urahara's creation was the main impetus behind most of the conflict in the series--and the reason that Aizen is a serious threat now to begin with. Though it was indirect, and clearly not his intention, there's plenty of blood on his hands. So they may be keeping him at arm's length because they know what he's capable of with enough funding and resources. He knows that, too, which'd explain why he'd stick with low-level entrepreneurship. :p

That's one of the main things I want to see addressed during this War--what Urahara's standing is with SS.

I figure that giving the Vaizard's asylum would be most likely. That's what they're doing with Ichigo, after all--there's no way in hell that they don't know about his mask when they've got Karakura monitored at all times. And they don't have the luxury of turning him away.

It is possible that that is SS's position with Urahara, but I too would be interested on getting a concrete statement on the matter. As for not knowing about Ichigo, all I am saying is that it is possible that they might not know. One would think that logically they should have KK Town monitored enough to have witnessed this by now, but seeing as how the issue as never been formally addressed, I could see Kubo potentially using it as a plot element. I am sure that not everyone in SS knows and that some of them know (or I would be quite shocked), but the question of how many actually do know would be nice to see get addressed.


This may be completely obvious to some people already, but i think it was Urahara and Tessai who discovered the way in which one can master the Hollow. When you think about it, it was probably Tessai that put up the barrier and then Urahara who fought to hollow forms of the Vizard while they gained complete control over their hollows. I know some of them were already mastering their hollows mid fight with Aizem but I can imagine that being the case post Gaiden arc...

THEREFORE (and why i needed to say that as a prelude to my prediction hehe) I think itis likely that Urahara and the Vizard remain in continual contact. I know they're "on their own side" but i wouldn't be surprised if in fact they are on Urahara's side, and therefore side with whoever he chooses. Plus I wouldn't be surprised if the Vizards and SS have already had discussions about the up-coming battles.

Having allegiance to Urahara is one thing, but siding with whomever he does is another. I am sure that the vizards have a bond with Urahara, but they likely wouldn't just blindly follow whomever he chooses for them. They have their own strong beliefs and feelings, and I don't think they consider Urahara their supreme commander. Urahara is clearly okay with them and they would definitely not fight them, but everyone else's standing with them is a different story. If Urahara sides with SS and the vizards don't, then the vizards would just not fight him.

Basically, it is possible for the vizards to side with SS, but I don't think they would just because Urahara will.


There are so many people that hate what happend to the battle between Kempachi & Notoria, constantly repeating how lame it was :notrust.
Let me tell you two things:
First- discussing into the prediction tread for the chapters is bad. It's not relative to the topic and often is quite annoying :notrust.
Second- think about what would have happend if he used kendo in the begining of the battle. Notoria doesn't even stand a chanse against Kempachi with kendo and without eyepatch.
4 or 5 strikes and notoria is into peaces.
When person want to keep his seacrets(kempachi with kendo) in fight doesn't make him weaker against the opponet. Is just that he can die in the end for his decision.

Ichigo against kempatchi kendo straike back then would probably have died.
Nothing more nothing less :amuse.

I don't think anyone here has a big problem with Kenpachi not using "kendo" at the beginning of the fight or even against Ichigo. The problem that most seem to have is that "kendo" was introduced in this way as the next step or power increase for Kenpachi like fighting without eyepatch was.

The eyepatch actually made some sense it was designed to drain his reiatsu and was introduced from the outset. The "kendo" (i.e., using two hands instead of one) did not have any prior implication of having a significant effect on the power of a swing. Furthermore, explaining this as kendo is somewhat annoying to many as it is really just name-dropping. What Kenpachi did was not an appropriate example of actual kendo, but Kubo just called it kendo to give it seemingly more credibility.

Andonan
November 07, 2008, 09:26 PM
@Tsuki, that's fairly odd reasoning, you're saying that they won't side with SS but just not fight Urahara, come on Urahara isn't one to just stand aside and let SS fight the Vizards, he'd intervene, though in truth i don't think it'll ever come to Vizards vs SS, but you never know. I still maintain that SS is going to get their butts kicked, a few of them will die (including Yama-ji) and then the Vizards will intervene to save the ones they actually like, eg. Yorioichi, Urahara, Shunsui, Ukitake, etc......

Tsukisama
November 09, 2008, 01:05 AM
@Tsuki, that's fairly odd reasoning, you're saying that they won't side with SS but just not fight Urahara, come on Urahara isn't one to just stand aside and let SS fight the Vizards, he'd intervene, though in truth i don't think it'll ever come to Vizards vs SS, but you never know. I still maintain that SS is going to get their butts kicked, a few of them will die (including Yama-ji) and then the Vizards will intervene to save the ones they actually like, eg. Yorioichi, Urahara, Shunsui, Ukitake, etc......

Is it odd? :?bunny

Whether Urahara stands aside or not, the vizards are independent and won't blindly follow whomever Urahara decides for them. They are not his personal army. They have gratitude towards him for his efforts, but that shouldn't be mistaken for some sort of fanatical devotion.

If the vizards wanted to fight against SS and Urahara got in their way, I believe they would try to avoid having to fight him out of respect for what he's done for him, but if he wouldn't stay out of their way, they would be forced to fight.

Anyway, it was purely hypothetical having the vizards side against SS. (The point was that I don't think the vizards would choose whomever Urahara chooses.) I also think that it is more likely for the vizards to fight against Aizen and resultantly alongside SS.

Andonan
November 09, 2008, 06:15 AM
Yeah I guess, I know that the Vizards are there own entity and stuff, and wouldn't blindly follow Urahara but come on....between him and Tessai, he was Hiyori's (one of the best developed Vizards) captain, who she really respect, they saved all their lives, and gave them an incredible power-up and at the same time not apparently damaging them physically or mentally....those guys have a done a bloody lot for those guys, i seriously doubt they would ever do something that Urahara really didn't want them too.....but hey you never know ahaha

Tsukisama
November 09, 2008, 02:54 PM
Yeah I guess, I know that the Vizards are there own entity and stuff, and wouldn't blindly follow Urahara but come on....between him and Tessai, he was Hiyori's (one of the best developed Vizards) captain, who she really respect, they saved all their lives, and gave them an incredible power-up and at the same time not apparently damaging them physically or mentally....those guys have a done a bloody lot for those guys, i seriously doubt they would ever do something that Urahara really didn't want them too.....but hey you never know ahaha

Gave them a power-up? What power-up did either Urahara or Tessai give them? We know that they tried to reverse the hollowfication process, but that is all we know.

I also agree Hiyori is the least likely to attack Urahara if he ever firmly stood in their way, but the vizards wouldn't just do whatever Urahara told them to do. We haven't been shown anything to suggest that they are currently that closely connected. When we saw Urahara talk about the vizard with Isshin, he didn't act like they would just do whatever he told them to do; he acted as though they were more of a wild card.

Just because someone does a lot for you, it doesn't mean that you follow the person's will. I think the vizards probably have respect for Urahara, but saying that they wouldn't do something he tells them not to do is taking it a bit far.

Jaime F.
November 10, 2008, 11:00 PM
Gave them a power-up? What power-up did either Urahara or Tessai give them? We know that they tried to reverse the hollowfication process, but that is all we know.

I also agree Hiyori is the least likely to attack Urahara if he ever firmly stood in their way, but the vizards wouldn't just do whatever Urahara told them to do. We haven't been shown anything to suggest that they are currently that closely connected. When we saw Urahara talk about the vizard with Isshin, he didn't act like they would just do whatever he told them to do; he acted as though they were more of a wild card.

Just because someone does a lot for you, it doesn't mean that you follow the person's will. I think the vizards probably have respect for Urahara, but saying that they wouldn't do something he tells them not to do is taking it a bit far.

Hello Tsukisama, by power up, I think he means whether on purpose or not, Uruhara used the Hogokyu(unsure of spelling) on the vizards, which could of inadvertantly given them more power, if not a better understanding of how to control their hollow side. Atleast that's what I think he means. I know it was used to try to reverse the hollowfication, or atleast relieve them of the side effects, but the process Uruhara, and Tessai put them through, could have effected their power levels. Uruhara, and the process he put the Vaizards through, might have even helped them understand their situation better, giving them a better understanding of how to use their powers.

Now as for who the Vaizards will side with, yes they are considered a wild card, but as readers we know a little more about the current Vaizards than Uruhara, or Isshin does. Considering what we know of their pasts, and the little bit of what we know of them currently, I think there's more of a chance they'll be on whoever's side is against Aizen. They have their good reasons for hating Soul Society, but they did help train Ichigo, and Shinji saved Rukia that one time. I won't to say that they'll follow Uruhara's will, as you put it, but it doesn't make much sense for them to side with the Aizen, and the Espada.

Cykai
November 10, 2008, 11:56 PM
Hello Tsukisama, by power up, I think he means whether on purpose or not, Uruhara used the Hogokyu(unsure of spelling) on the vizards, which could of inadvertantly given them more power, if not a better understanding of how to control their hollow side. Atleast that's what I think he means. I know it was used to try to reverse the hollowfication, or atleast relieve them of the side effects, but the process Uruhara, and Tessai put them through, could have effected their power levels. Uruhara, and the process he put the Vaizards through, might have even helped them understand their situation better, giving them a better understanding of how to use their powers.


the problem w/ that is your basing the facts that they are stronger on a "what if"; something that we have no prof on and maybe never will. however it does indeed say that urahara used the hyogoku(sp?) to try and stop/ reverse the hollowification. never said anything about refining hollow powers or anything.

hyn_pride93
November 11, 2008, 05:16 AM
IMO, Ichigo is the one person in the entire Bleach world who will change everything as they know. As we speak, Kubo is creating different ways on how he's changing everything. Rules and boundries are being broken by the second. Ichigo may seem to be the perfect candidate to receive a "cure" of some sort to rid himself of that behemoth Shirosaki. But, if it weren't for Shirosaki, we would not be where we are today (in the world of Bleach).

All that Ichigo needs to do is hone down all of his abilities. He has more than enough time to train and train. How do we know this? The answer is simple. Ichigo is still a human. Once his human body dies, he'll still live on, in soul form. He's already a pureblood shinigami. But to be more precise, he's the Hybrid.

ryanzokuken
November 11, 2008, 09:07 AM
IMO, Ichigo is the one person in the entire Bleach world who will change everything as they know. As we speak, Kubo is creating different ways on how he's changing everything. Rules and boundries are being broken by the second. Ichigo may seem to be the perfect candidate to receive a "cure" of some sort to rid himself of that behemoth Shirosaki. But, if it weren't for Shirosaki, we would not be where we are today (in the world of Bleach).

All that Ichigo needs to do is hone down all of his abilities. He has more than enough time to train and train. How do we know this? The answer is simple. Ichigo is still a human. Once his human body dies, he'll still live on, in soul form. He's already a pureblood shinigami. But to be more precise, he's the Hybrid.


lol wut?

i agree with what you said about how he's a human and a hybrid and blah blah blah, but he's had like...a compiled total of like 2 to 3 weeks of training, whereas his shinigami counterparts have have hundreds of years.

hyn_pride93
November 11, 2008, 03:26 PM
lol wut?
I was half dead when I posted that. :lmao My bad. What I was trying to say was that if there's any need for Ichigo to improve (and there is), then there really is no worry because he still has so much more time for that. You get?


i agree with what you said about how he's a human and a hybrid and blah blah blah, but he's had like...a compiled total of like 2 to 3 weeks of training, whereas his shinigami counterparts have have hundreds of years.

True. Ichigo is also the exception to all the rules though (since he is the main character). But what some don't realize is that he was trained by some really awesome characters. One of the best would be Urahara. Just look at the man. He pretty much created an entire new species, which now call themselves Vizards. Urahara became Ichigo's mentor and trained him using "short-cuts" and bypassing all the rules with his methods. One of those methods would be that doll that helps the shinigami to manifest the soul of a zanpaktou, and by using that technique you'll recieve your bankai in all only 3 days. Everyone else takes about 10 years at the very least! Urahara also gave Ichigo his powers back by using yet another method before the bankai. They train in an underground area that Urahara created. Who knows what's lying within there.There's probably an amplifier or something that helps to boost their powers to make training better.

Just some food for thought. :)

Tsukisama
November 11, 2008, 08:36 PM
Hello Tsukisama, by power up, I think he means whether on purpose or not, Uruhara used the Hogokyu(unsure of spelling) on the vizards, which could of inadvertantly given them more power, if not a better understanding of how to control their hollow side. Atleast that's what I think he means. I know it was used to try to reverse the hollowfication, or atleast relieve them of the side effects, but the process Uruhara, and Tessai put them through, could have effected their power levels. Uruhara, and the process he put the Vaizards through, might have even helped them understand their situation better, giving them a better understanding of how to use their powers.

Now as for who the Vaizards will side with, yes they are considered a wild card, but as readers we know a little more about the current Vaizards than Uruhara, or Isshin does. Considering what we know of their pasts, and the little bit of what we know of them currently, I think there's more of a chance they'll be on whoever's side is against Aizen. They have their good reasons for hating Soul Society, but they did help train Ichigo, and Shinji saved Rukia that one time. I won't to say that they'll follow Uruhara's will, as you put it, but it doesn't make much sense for them to side with the Aizen, and the Espada.

Like Cykai already posted, the reason I questioned the statement about receiving a power-up in the post that you quoted was that it was being stated in a matter-of-fact manner when it is only speculation at this point. At this current point, we don't know how much benefit Urahara and Tessai's efforts were with the exception of at least saving the vizards from being executed.

Also, I think that I stated that I also believe that the vizards are likely to side against Aizen, but again the main point of the post in regards to that was that they would not be doing it necessarily because of Urahara.

patedecarne
November 11, 2008, 08:48 PM
speaking of vaizards, i need help to understand some aspects about their transformation and the hougyoku, i'm having problems trying to understand what was hoygyoku's role with the Vaizards;

let me explain some things:

-we all know that hougyoku can break the boundaries between shinigami and hollow, right?

-back in the gaiden, Aizen's used some kind of secret device to being the hollowfication process; and the hollowfication would kill them all too, if i understood correctly

-then Urahara showed up with hougyoku, saying that he'd heal Shinji and co., right?

here's the problem: what exactly did the hougyoku? it hasn't broken the boundaries, because Aizen's method already has done it, right? (the hollowfication process), then what was the hougyoku used for? it hasn't reverted then hollowfication, either!

-See my point? with or without hougyoku, Shinji and the others already were condemned to be vaizards!

Of course I can miss something, but i think the hougyoku point wasn't well explained in the gaiden ^_

If someone has a better understanding of this, please post here, because I'm really finding difficulties to understand this issue!

ryanzokuken
November 11, 2008, 09:01 PM
Urahara attempted to reverse the process of hollowification with his hougyoku. he hoped that maybe if it could break the barrier, it might also be able to rebuild it. this failed, however.

most of his help to them was getting them out of SS alive.

at best, he and the hougyoku may have stabilized the vaizards, or helped them train to suppress their hollows and keep their consciousness as their own.

Tsukisama
November 11, 2008, 09:02 PM
You're right, Pat, that the Hougyoku's role in the gaiden in regards to the vizards has not been completely explained. We know that Urahara tried to use it to reverse the hollowfication process, and he failed to do that with the Hougyoku. Some speculate that the Hougyoku may have had some effect on the vizards, but given what we know now, it is just guesswork.

The Hougyoku is still just as mysterious as it was before the gaiden, and we still need to wait before we get some concrete information on it.

redcometfm
November 12, 2008, 07:40 PM
Bleach has ALOT of depth to it, in terms of poetry, symbolism, foreshadowing and certain character development (yes not all characters have an entire backhistory sadly). Naruto has something similar but it caters too much to a younger crowd for me to appreciate as much. It definetly has its moments, Ill give it that, particularly in Pt II. OP is another story, sure it may have depth buts it probably nowhere near the quality of the above titles. And that comes from someone who read more than enough of OP (I was like 10 chapters or so from Alabasta, read like 140+ chs). Ive even checked out the latest chapters just to see if I was wrong and I still see the same stuff from OP (sigh).

I will say though that the first 126 chapters of Bleach (till the end of the Mayuri fight) were pure genius and some of the best shonen jump manga/writing Ive ever seen. I miss the old art style :( I miss the old flow. Its fine now but it was just so incredible in the early days.

moonster x
November 12, 2008, 07:40 PM
yeah you can complain.. but i dislike people who complain about the mangaka himself
well he trying to do his best and yet other people calling him sucks.. and wow now you compare the character... hahaha just kidding...well its up to you...still no spoiler pic yet
im bored and need sleep...

WaveBossa
November 12, 2008, 09:12 PM
I have to agree with what someone previously stated, bleach is scared shitless to kill off a main character. We see in naruto, which in my mind is not quite as violent or bloody as bleach, have no problem killing off asuma, jiraiya, the third hokage, itachi, choji's dad, etc.

Bleach's lack of a "kill-off-damn-character-once-in-a-while" makes things far to predictable and less interesting.

For comparison, Kakkashi in Naruto could be dead (most likely not). And the only reason I have any belief that this could happen is that i know kishi will kill.. KISHI WILL KILL!!!

kubo, get ur shit together

Danre
November 12, 2008, 09:48 PM
Naruto kills characters, both good guys and bad guys.

One Piece doesn't kill anyone, good guys or bad guys.

Bleach only kills bad guys, no good guys.

Two are fair to the reader, one isn't.

ThaGreatOne
November 14, 2008, 04:08 AM
I have to agree with what someone previously stated, bleach is scared shitless to kill off a main character. We see in naruto, which in my mind is not quite as violent or bloody as bleach, have no problem killing off asuma, jiraiya, the third hokage, itachi, choji's dad, etc.

Bleach's lack of a "kill-off-damn-character-once-in-a-while" makes things far to predictable and less interesting.

For comparison, Kakkashi in Naruto could be dead (most likely not). And the only reason I have any belief that this could happen is that i know kishi will kill.. KISHI WILL KILL!!!

kubo, get ur shit together

EXACTLY!! this is why naruto is better. Yes it may seem to cater to a younger audience but it's still better because there is suspense and you are actually left wondering who will win or survive a fight sometimes. In bleach we already SS will win WITHOUT any casualties and it's just wrong. You can build up the badguys like they are actual threats them have them all chopped down one by one without killing anybody! (where would a soul reaper go if they died anyways? :blink ) That is bad for the manga. Now it seems that EVERY good guy is a main character now and that leads to dragging. Despite kishi's love for sasuke at least you are left wondering whether the other characters will survive (like Kakashi or when 8-tails predictably lost to sasuke it ended up that he tricked him and ended up escaping and not dying which = suprise/plot twist/fanservice without making the story, powerlevels, or fans suffer). As for Hitsu in his fight.....yes the odds look stacked but just because SS never has any deaths (and barely any losses) i know he will pwn halibel somehow and soifon beats up barragan and stark goes down ALL without losing a single captain. What kind of one-sided war is this? lol Throw in a plot twist or unforeseen good guy death somewhere please....Kishi does it lol

ryanzokuken
November 14, 2008, 11:08 AM
personally, i think Naruto has sucked since the middle of the Sasuke-Itachi fight.

Itachi not mopping the floor with Sasuke was the start down a long, boring path full of bullshit.

sorry for being off topic. :p i never post in the Naruto forums because they're so ridiculously flooded and i wouldn't be able to keep up, lol. plus i know i'd just have a ton of 14 year olds bitching at me and threatening to kill my family.

anyways, some real drama and intensity for bleach would definitely be good, and a good-guy death or two would be a good way to go about it, but...due to all of our recent complaining and talking about it, if a captain died now, it would no longer be a surprise or plot twist and would just be fake and cliche and expected.

it's like a wife being upset at her husband for not remembering their anniversary and getting her something. THEN after she's made a fuss about it, he shows up with just some flowers and is like "heyyyyy, honey, happy anniversary! :D"


dumb analogy, i know. lol.

RICKisBOSS
November 14, 2008, 11:25 AM
Bleach has more than enough 'good guys' not to be killed. It's only a matter of time and I just want to point out that Aizen killed the office of 46. 46....The people who pretty much ran SS...Shouldn't that count as a death toll or does it have to be a character that is generally favored but you despise (hate to say it but I don't see Hitsugaya or Inoue or Rukia or 75% of the Bleach cast that I could do without getting killed off)...It would change the overall appeal of Bleach in the long run. Bleach is Bleach. It's not Kubo's job to be like Naruto or anything else..If you want Naruto, read HxH seeing how Kishimoto knows damn well he owes massive royalities to Togashi ;)

hyn_pride93
November 14, 2008, 11:35 AM
Bleach has more than enough 'good guys' not to be killed. It's only a matter of time and I just want to point out that Aizen killed the office of 46. 46....The people who pretty much ran SS...Shouldn't that count as a death toll or does it have to be a character that is generally favored but you despise (hate to say it but I don't see Hitsugaya or Inoue or Rukia or 75% of the Bleach cast that I could do without getting killed off)...It would change the overall appeal of Bleach in the long run. Bleach is Bleach. It's not Kubo's job to be like Naruto or anything else..If you want Naruto, read HxH seeing how Kishimoto knows damn well he owes massive royalities to Togashi
Absolutely. Bleach has been built up in a way so that it wouldn't ever be compared to Naruto or HxH, or any other manga.

For one, Bleach hasn't progressed far enough into the story to really kill off someone. Also, if Kubo decided to put some deaths in there, who would he kill off? Orihime, Rukia, Chad, Ishida, Renji? I believe not. We still have yet to witness the full extent of Orihime and Chad's powers. Rukia has already faced the gallows but has been saved. Renji and Ishida still have more to offer to us.

I believe that if there will be some deaths in Bleach, then it'll probably be some lesser shinigami. Bleach just simply hasn't gotten to that point where we are all in love with the same character just yet.

ThaGreatOne
November 15, 2008, 12:44 PM
personally, i think Naruto has sucked since the middle of the Sasuke-Itachi fight.

Itachi not mopping the floor with Sasuke was the start down a long, boring path full of bullshit.

sorry for being off topic. :p i never post in the Naruto forums because they're so ridiculously flooded and i wouldn't be able to keep up, lol. plus i know i'd just have a ton of 14 year olds bitching at me and threatening to kill my family.

anyways, some real drama and intensity for bleach would definitely be good, and a good-guy death or two would be a good way to go about it, but...due to all of our recent complaining and talking about it, if a captain died now, it would no longer be a surprise or plot twist and would just be fake and cliche and expected.

it's like a wife being upset at her husband for not remembering their anniversary and getting her something. THEN after she's made a fuss about it, he shows up with just some flowers and is like "heyyyyy, honey, happy anniversary! :D"


dumb analogy, i know. lol.

Yea i hated how that fight turned out but Kishi gave that away a long time ago when he said we was gonna focus on sasuke b4 the fight even happened. Even so at least others went down. Yea sure somebody hitting the dirt might seem predictable but come on these are supposed to be Aizen's top fighters and not a single one has caused a casualty? What are they good for? How can u fear that. Thats how i know ichigo will kill uliq somehow after ichigo's earlier encounter/near death experience with him. I mean kill on some VC or something but it makes the villains that he spent so much time on creating look like overhyped weakling when they get swept aside in such fashion. They don't even look like a threat right now
[hr]

Bleach has more than enough 'good guys' not to be killed. It's only a matter of time and I just want to point out that Aizen killed the office of 46. 46....The people who pretty much ran SS...Shouldn't that count as a death toll or does it have to be a character that is generally favored but you despise (hate to say it but I don't see Hitsugaya or Inoue or Rukia or 75% of the Bleach cast that I could do without getting killed off)...It would change the overall appeal of Bleach in the long run. Bleach is Bleach. It's not Kubo's job to be like Naruto or anything else..If you want Naruto, read HxH seeing how Kishimoto knows damn well he owes massive royalities to Togashi ;)

not really because that was when Ichigo and crew was infiltrating SS so they were kinda the antagonists at the time weren't they...until Aizen turned. Plus we never really saw them fighting or interacting with ichigo or anybody else really. I mean people like certain characters and even claim they can't stand them dying but it can be done and still run. Just look at Jiraiya (I KNOW I KNOW NARUTO REFERENCE), Asuma, 3rd hokage if you do it right then i can be done without destroying the manga and gives credibility to the villians you create as actually being dangerous and actually capable of destroying the world. Right now I don't think these espada and friends could destroy ANY town/city right now. They are being made to look pathetically weak compared to SS

VeshWolfe
November 17, 2008, 09:44 PM
I was half dead when I posted that. :lmao My bad. What I was trying to say was that if there's any need for Ichigo to improve (and there is), then there really is no worry because he still has so much more time for that. You get?



True. Ichigo is also the exception to all the rules though (since he is the main character). But what some don't realize is that he was trained by some really awesome characters. One of the best would be Urahara. Just look at the man. He pretty much created an entire new species, which now call themselves Vizards. Urahara became Ichigo's mentor and trained him using "short-cuts" and bypassing all the rules with his methods. One of those methods would be that doll that helps the shinigami to manifest the soul of a zanpaktou, and by using that technique you'll recieve your bankai in all only 3 days. Everyone else takes about 10 years at the very least! Urahara also gave Ichigo his powers back by using yet another method before the bankai. They train in an underground area that Urahara created. Who knows what's lying within there.There's probably an amplifier or something that helps to boost their powers to make training better.

Just some food for thought. :)

being trained by awsome characters frankly doesnt mean anything. Ichigo has survived thus far by luck, and only by luck. I think its quite obvious that Kubo inteded this to happen. Ichigo acheiving bankai in three days was luck, not skill. And in doing so he most likely nerfed the overall power of his bankai. think about it. His bankai has two abilities, the energy attack (cant spell it so cba to) and the increase in speed. The speed is an ability that is always there, the energy attack was all Zangetsu had time to teach him as Ichigo didnt pass the training until the very last moment before Rukia was to be killed.

As for Urahara, hes a scientist. Im sure the knowledge as to how to restore a shinigami's lost powers is not only known by him. But it might be taboo in Soul S. As for his area having an amplifier, i think thats a little too much conjecture as there is no proff at all to suport this.


speaking of vaizards, i need help to understand some aspects about their transformation and the hougyoku, i'm having problems trying to understand what was hoygyoku's role with the Vaizards;

let me explain some things:

-we all know that hougyoku can break the boundaries between shinigami and hollow, right?

-back in the gaiden, Aizen's used some kind of secret device to being the hollowfication process; and the hollowfication would kill them all too, if i understood correctly

-then Urahara showed up with hougyoku, saying that he'd heal Shinji and co., right?

here's the problem: what exactly did the hougyoku? it hasn't broken the boundaries, because Aizen's method already has done it, right? (the hollowfication process), then what was the hougyoku used for? it hasn't reverted then hollowfication, either!

-See my point? with or without hougyoku, Shinji and the others already were condemned to be vaizards!

Of course I can miss something, but i think the hougyoku point wasn't well explained in the gaiden ^_

If someone has a better understanding of this, please post here, because I'm really finding difficulties to understand this issue!


as it was stated the hougyoku broke the boundries. if they were not broken, then shinji and company would have died. For some reason Ichigo either never had that boundry or it was somehow destroyed when his powers were removed by byakuya.


btw, im back if anyone remebers this little ol'me.

ryanzokuken
November 17, 2008, 10:14 PM
being trained by awsome characters frankly doesnt mean anything. Ichigo has survived thus far by luck, and only by luck. I think its quite obvious that Kubo inteded this to happen. Ichigo acheiving bankai in three days was luck, not skill. And in doing so he most likely nerfed the overall power of his bankai. think about it. His bankai has two abilities, the energy attack (cant spell it so cba to) and the increase in speed. The speed is an ability that is always there, the energy attack was all Zangetsu had time to teach him as Ichigo didnt pass the training until the very last moment before Rukia was to be killed.

As for Urahara, hes a scientist. Im sure the knowledge as to how to restore a shinigami's lost powers is not only known by him. But it might be taboo in Soul S. As for his area having an amplifier, i think thats a little too much conjecture as there is no proff at all to suport this.




as it was stated the hougyoku broke the boundries. if they were not broken, then shinji and company would have died. For some reason Ichigo either never had that boundry or it was somehow destroyed when his powers were removed by byakuya.


btw, im back if anyone remebers this little ol'me.

Urahara, one of those awesome people who trained Ichigo, developed that method of attaining bankai and used it himself to get his bankai. do you also think HE was just lucky and will have a nerfed bankai? :oh

VeshWolfe
November 18, 2008, 10:29 PM
Urahara, one of those awesome people who trained Ichigo, developed that method of attaining bankai and used it himself to get his bankai. do you also think HE was just lucky and will have a nerfed bankai? :oh

ichigo's bankai is nerfed not bc it was obtained in 3 days, but because it was obtained right before the deadline of rukia getting killed. ichigo didnt have the time after learning bankai to learn about it and all that it can do. ichigo even said all zangetsu had time to teach me was this one attack. Urahara after learning bankai in three days has had, of course, years to learn about it.

now before you say after SS ichigo could have learned. Well in the manga after SS, Arrancar attacks began and Ogihci began to take control, replacing zangetsu's presence with his own as he was now the dominant force within ichigo. sure Ogihci agreed to allow Ichigo to use his abilities during the Vizard training, but we have seen no cannon evidence that Zangetsu returned.

(I say he allowed, bc he concedes. Even after being stabbed he still could have fought back, and unlike the othe Vizard who completelt subjigated their hollows, Ogihci is being the "horse" un the condition Ichigo doesnt screw up and put their lives in danger.)

so ya compare to all the other captains and possibly a majority of the Viazard, Ichigo has a nerfed Bankai. No one found it odd that the Captains can go toe to toe with the Arrancar and some Espada with their shikais and somethime plain old bankais, but ichigo needs his bankai and his hollow mask? Thats bc he is merely supplimenting what he lacks in his bankai with his hollow powers and vice versa. Im sure Kubo will have both powers "grow" in some fashion eventually.

llmcduff
November 25, 2008, 12:16 PM
This had to be talked about before but I've not ran across it - What do you think Aizen bankai is like?

If bankai reflects the person's personality, it's something nasty, power hungry, and deceitful. I can't wait to see it, maybe in the next 300 chapters or so at this pace.

His shikai, although very powerful, is pretty simple if you think about it.

studiokid
November 25, 2008, 02:36 PM
His shikai, although very powerful, is pretty simple if you think about it.

yeah i know what you mean , some how i think that there is some easy way around his shikai that is gonna have us like why didn't we think about that.

llmcduff
November 25, 2008, 03:52 PM
yeah i know what you mean , some how i think that there is some easy way around his shikai that is gonna have us like why didn't we think about that.
Probably something lame like pure of heart or naivety. Someone like Orihime can overcome or see through him, thus he kidnapped her. Yes, I know, he said he wants her power of rejection.

no_regretsYSL
November 25, 2008, 05:14 PM
I have a prediction an intense freakin prediction, seriously it all fits together please you have to read it: And every other line has parenthesis and gives extra detail to explain the sentence before it, but you don't have to read those if you want the quick version.

I have a prediction that soon Toshiro will begin to lose his battle with Halibel before SoiFon and Baragan have at it. This leads to Komomura stepping in front of SoiFon to challenge Baragan who really is number 3 Espada, all while signaling SoiFon to help Toshiro take on the difficult number 2 Espada Halibel. To take care of Toshiro in this little prediction lets say Yama-ji ordered him back to soul society

{(in a way that appears to Toshiro like he messed up by losing but really Yama-ji gives the face that he knows Toshiro's real power and that he must find it without distraction aka MoMo's fight)}

to fend off Yamma the Espada and his fraccion which happens to be an army of gillian arrancars. This allows Yoruichi to make an appearance and team up with SoiFon against Halibel, while Urahara and the VC of Kido try to find a way back into Hueco Mundo with the help of some of if not all the Vaizard, eventually leading to Ichigo testing his gall against Ulqiourra while slowly turning into a controlled full hollow with the approval and/or "aid" of Orihime, leaving room for Urahara to snake his way into Hueco Mundo just in time to save Ichigo from full hollow and beat Uluqiora,

{(who was ordered by Aizen to suicide and "bomb" the co, leaving Urahara injured, freakin perfect "i'll do his bidding" attitude)}

otherwise stealing the Hyo-you-know-gyoko thus appearing like a criminal act to SS when they find out real soon because before Ukitake, Shunsui, Yoruichi, SoiFan, Komomura, and Yama-ji have a chance to fight for realz, Aizen will have received a message about Urahara's success and Uluquiora's defeat thus instantly retreating his Espada to blister through a left-over gate to soul society made by Isshin and Big Daddy Quincy who, with Toshiro, have been fending off Yamma the Freakin tenth Espada who came in after them, when they thought Yamma was already there because Komomura heard Aizen and his gang talking about it in the fire, Blind dudes don't lie!!

DONE - Think about it

Onomatopoeia
November 26, 2008, 07:42 PM
Aizen's Shikai is pretty simple/weak compared to other people with illusion as their power for instance an example would be all KHR Illusionists, period.


As for what it will be, your guess is as good as mine but whatever it will be it's going to be cheap.

Tarkara
November 27, 2008, 08:43 PM
Sorry but where is/what happened to the spoiler thread?

AnimeLoverX
November 28, 2008, 12:53 AM
epic. finally. one chapter that has made a good progress in the story.

Aphalite
November 28, 2008, 09:27 PM
Anyone know what happened here?

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/306/16/

hasn't been revisited in a while and I couldn't find anything alluding to it

RICKisBOSS
November 28, 2008, 11:24 PM
I mean no one can save for sure but a lot of people including myself thought it was the privion espada by the shadows but it isn't solid enough to say but then again, you'd expect something that Grantz dealt with offscreen that the readers may or may not have recognized and here in lies the problem :oh

Aphalite
November 29, 2008, 12:31 AM
ah the bird lady and the typhoon dude?

redcometfm
November 30, 2008, 02:14 AM
Ive got a feeling its Pesche and Dondochakka. After all, their masks were ripped off completely.

Andonan
November 30, 2008, 07:54 AM
Guys there already is a really simple way around his Shikai, disable one of your 5 senses....by not having sight Tousen managed to completely be uneffected by Aizen's shikai, all you need to do is disable one.....perhaps the 12th division designed a drug that could disable one....touch perhaps?? I''m not which would the least worse to lose

Tsukisama
November 30, 2008, 06:39 PM
Guys there already is a really simple way around his Shikai, disable one of your 5 senses....by not having sight Tousen managed to completely be uneffected by Aizen's shikai, all you need to do is disable one.....perhaps the 12th division designed a drug that could disable one....touch perhaps?? I''m not which would the least worse to lose

Actually, you would need to disable your sense of sight (or at least not look at his release). It has never been said that you need to be without only one of your senses to not fall victim to Aizen's complete hypnosis. The only information on it has been that you must see him release, which is why Tousen is immune because he can't see anything.

I think you got it a bit mixed up with the result of his shikai, as it fools all 5 of the senses, but the requirement is again just seeing the release. Could you imagine someone being immune to it by simply removing their sense of taste or smell or (more simply) just not tasting/smelling his shikai release (which probably does not have a scent or a taste)? :amuse

Gecko Moria
November 30, 2008, 09:48 PM
Tousen's not that great, just be a crazy guy like kenpachi and own him.
nah just kidding...his bankai and other abilities can really screw u over if ur not careful

Just wondering what ulquiorra and ichigo r up to eh?

Aaroniero Arruruer
November 30, 2008, 10:47 PM
Tousen's not that great, just be a crazy guy like kenpachi and own him.
nah just kidding...his bankai and other abilities can really screw u over if ur not careful


they(aizen,gin and tousen) must have had some power-ups its hard to belive that tousen could be respected by almost all the arrancars with the same power he had when they left seireitei, plus what he did with grimmjow’s arm.
http://br.youtube.com/watch?v=E7u1tqyC-kc

hyn_pride93
December 03, 2008, 01:32 AM
they(aizen,gin and tousen) must have had some power-ups its hard to belive that tousen could be respected by almost all the arrancars with the same power he had when they left seireitei, plus what he did with grimmjow’s arm.
http://br.youtube.com/watch?v=E7u1tqyC-kc

I agree with you on the power-ups. Aizen can't be all that bad when it comes to Tousen and Gin. He most definitely knows that he needs followers that'll be able to defeat arrancars if they are to step out of line. Especially if those followers have been by your side from the very beginning.

SilversDKRayleigh
December 06, 2008, 03:29 AM
I don't know if this has been mentioned but does anybody else think that Isshin looks like the captain of the 8th squad, and in the 8th squad captain's profile it said he had a brother.

hyn_pride93
December 06, 2008, 03:34 AM
8th squad captain? Are you saying this because they have the same jaw and beard? :lmao I think that we may have discussed something similar to this before. Except it was for Naruto. The artist probably drew them similar to each other because that's just the way he/she draws. Naruto looks like Pain, but they aren't related.

SilversDKRayleigh
December 06, 2008, 03:58 AM
8th squad captain? Are you saying this because they have the same jaw and beard? :lmao I think that we may have discussed something similar to this before. Except it was for Naruto. The artist probably drew them similar to each other because that's just the way he/she draws. Naruto looks like Pain, but they aren't related.

Yeah i kinda figured that but it would be kinda cool. I also wonder if Isshin has anything to do with the king of soul society.

hyn_pride93
December 06, 2008, 04:11 AM
There's a thread called Zangetsu, The Kurosaki Family, and The King (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16796) in the Biblioteca. Check it out. You're not the only one who thinks that Isshin has something to do with the King of SS. :) I'm one of them.

Isshin was probably the former 11th Division Captain that was "killed" or someone in the Royal Guard who left SS to be with his wife I think.

ikayto
December 07, 2008, 05:32 AM
bleach is so 1 dimensional when it comes to battling making it boring.

genkizen
December 09, 2008, 02:57 AM
bleach is so 1 dimensional when it comes to battling making it boring.

I kind of feel that if bleach was 1 dimensional in the fighting then they would just follow the power rankings rule like dbz did, if your reiatsu is higher then boom, you win.

But in bleach it's not just about your power level, a lot of other things fall into play like your determination and the situational environment. Although other ppl have there gripes about it, I tend to enjoy that aspect of bleach.

patedecarne
December 09, 2008, 09:29 AM
When we talk about fights in Bleach, it's really dynamic;

let's take DBZ as an example: Majin Buu saga

Fat Buu, Majin Buu, Kid Buu. Mainly, Buu and his variations were the only enemy: Dabura doesn't count since his role in the plot was to fight quickly against Gohan and then turn into a chocolate piece. Look at the fights: "someone is about to defeat Buu when something unexpected happens and the saga is extended a little (and the "unexpected happenings" were quite annoying).

Bleach doesn't suffer from this problem. Granted, Aizen is the main enemy, but he has so many subordinates to fight and keep the fights interesting, to a certain degree. Its like a binary tree, where Aizen is in the top, then Tousen and Gin, after them the espadas, the fraccions, the ordinary arrancars.

And to fight an entire saga against just one villain is way more annoying than fighting with an army of enemies. For me, every situation, circunstance has a good side, and the good side of Bleach with the current arc is the large roster of characters and their battle. And when I say large, you can believe on my words, because we have almost 50 characters fighting or waiting to fight right now!

ryanzokuken
December 09, 2008, 09:51 AM
while i agree for the most part, Bleach isn't really that unique in it's "bad guys" and flow of battle.

Aizen turning out to be the bad guy in the SS arc, that was unique and one hell of an unexpected twist!

however...

"part one - figurehead enemy that turns out to be not what was expected and isn't the real main bad guy.

part two - new group of more powerful enemies, the leader of which is the real big bad enemy, whom may be a combination of the others or at least has the ability to use their abilities."

this is a formula followed by so many anime and video games.

Nartuo- Orochimaru -> Akatsuki.

Bleach- Gotei 13, or even just Gin, since he's cast as the main evil one at first -> Aizen and his espada.

Kingdom Hearts- Ansem (Xehanort) -> Xemnas and Organization XIII
(so far. there will be more and they won't have been the true final baddies either.)

hell, even the original Digimon series followed it.

etc etc.

Omi_XII
December 09, 2008, 10:11 AM
Posted this in the wrong thread initially. >=) HAw haws.

You know. This may actually split opinion as it's a very controversial subject regarding the whole Bleach series, but I think this link to a chapter page might be even more confusing as to the vaizards true intentions: http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/190/05/

That, to me, is very iffy in terms of what side they are actually on. I had thought that it was a simple conclusion as to which side they'd turn to, until I saw that.

(P.S. Does anyone else think Ulquiorra has been getting drawn to look younger as time goes by? I remember him looking a lot more badass, and older when he was very first introduced. http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/190/19/ <== Start of the Arc.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/318/07/ <== Now.

does anyone see what I mean, or has noticed this either? )

genkizen
December 09, 2008, 01:22 PM
Posted this in the wrong thread initially. >=) HAw haws.

(P.S. Does anyone else think Ulquiorra has been getting drawn to look younger as time goes by? I remember him looking a lot more badass, and older when he was very first introduced. http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/190/19/ <== Start of the Arc.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/318/07/ <== Now.

does anyone see what I mean, or has noticed this either? )

The only difference I see is that kubo gave him eyebrows in the second link.

Omi_XII
December 09, 2008, 03:44 PM
The only difference I see is that kubo gave him eyebrows in the second link.

You aren't looking nearly as close then. First of all, a massive difference is the crack in the front of his helmet, and the missing ridge at the center.

A couple of other things: Larger eye's (Typically given to child/younger Manga characters,) the length of his face ( again, a distinction often seperating older manga characters from younger characters,) he's being drawn lately with a more rounder face and as I hinted on, the mask design has been altered and as you pointed out the eyebrows...He didn't even have eyebrows. Plus he has longer hair ( Only slightly, but I noticed it. )

Fox666
December 09, 2008, 07:39 PM
It's just a evolution in the drawing... just look at the first cover of the series and compare to the characters today... http://img56.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/000105672/03-04.jpg

I think One Piece is the best example of something like that... see the image in the last chapters...
http://img34.onemanga.com/mangas/00000002/000082031/01.jpg
This is very different of the characters in the begining of the series...
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/156/13/

Naruto the same...
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/30/05/
Look at Kakashi...
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/365/13/

Even Dragonball
http://www.onemanga.com/Dragonball/1/15/
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_MTOfGPf86SQ/SJqSLNEMbfI/AAAAAAAAAnE/boSY5jiryws/s1600/1_kanzenban_34-p230.jpg

Sevenheadedmirror
December 09, 2008, 08:22 PM
It's just a evolution in the drawing... just look at the first cover of the series and compare to the characters today... http://img56.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/000105672/03-04.jpg

I think One Piece is the best example of something like that... see the image in the last chapters...
http://img34.onemanga.com/mangas/00000002/000082031/01.jpg
This is very different of the characters in the begining of the series...
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/156/13/

Naruto the same...
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/30/05/
Look at Kakashi...
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/365/13/

Even Dragonball
http://www.onemanga.com/Dragonball/1/15/
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_MTOfGPf86SQ/SJqSLNEMbfI/AAAAAAAAAnE/boSY5jiryws/s1600/1_kanzenban_34-p230.jpg

... I don't think the naruto drawer started as bad as the other ones... look at any soul eater manga and you'll see how much the anime is helping them. JAJAJA, seriously do it.

I will love for Ichigo to simply be killed by Ulquorria in the most gory way as I wish as well to the shinigami fighting the espada (hollow should be stronger than shinigami no matter what... seriously... if you compare the most basic dudes -not lieutenant or 4th seats but the ones that seem as weak as an avarage human but that already form a part of Sereitei's army- and you realize that they are stronger, without counting the hollow lizards that eat spirit atoms in Hueco Mundo of course.)...


By the way loved the siggy XD JAJAJAJA

ikayto
December 09, 2008, 08:25 PM
while i agree for the most part, Bleach isn't really that unique in it's "bad guys" and flow of battle.

Aizen turning out to be the bad guy in the SS arc, that was unique and one hell of an unexpected twist!

however...

"part one - figurehead enemy that turns out to be not what was expected and isn't the real main bad guy.

part two - new group of more powerful enemies, the leader of which is the real big bad enemy, whom may be a combination of the others or at least has the ability to use their abilities."

this is a formula followed by so many anime and video games.

Nartuo- Orochimaru -> Akatsuki.

Bleach- Gotei 13, or even just Gin, since he's cast as the main evil one at first -> Aizen and his espada.

Kingdom Hearts- Ansem (Xehanort) -> Xemnas and Organization XIII
(so far. there will be more and they won't have been the true final baddies either.)

hell, even the original Digimon series followed it.

etc etc.

I agree there will always be some bad guy but what leads up to defeating him and how the fights are animated/drawn play a big role for me.

Bleach battles are so slow paced and involve a lot of dialogue after each combination of blows and punches. They just seem to stop fighting after exchanging sword slashes and punches and talk about arrogance and power. Always ends up with the good guy pulling something out of their sleeve and overwhelming the opposition. I never feel any excitement reading bleach fights. Naruto on the other hand, it's always interesting because there are so many twists in battles and there is a thought process displayed by the characters in their fights whereas bleach is mmmk slash you here, bankai this, shinpo you, and etc.




And to fight an entire saga against just one villain is way more annoying than fighting with an army of enemies. For me, every situation, circunstance has a good side, and the good side of Bleach with the current arc is the large roster of characters and their battle. And when I say large, you can believe on my words, because we have almost 50 characters fighting or waiting to fight right now!

It's great that there are so many faces willing to fight but the battle plan is always the same.

Evil guy: upper hand at first and scoffs at good guy, totally one sided fight
good guy: picks up the pace and catches the enemy off guard being all smug in the end with their special technique.

dont even get me started on ichigo's incremental power increase.

always has to have his ass handed to him by a new enemy and goes and runs off to learn a new technique to defeat the new enemy but eventually is weak against the introduction of a newer enemy.

Andonan
December 10, 2008, 07:40 AM
*Shrug* to be honest there is nothing wrong with a story to be Linear, (watch Yatzee reviews of games if you want a good arguement why) so I've never found the fighting or story formula to be that much of a bother, i just hate unexplained plot holes lol

Sevenheadedmirror
December 10, 2008, 06:53 PM
Hey I think this could be the most powerful character possible according to the rules of Bleach up to now, I'll describe some sort of story line:

1.-Strong shinigami guy
2.-Shinigami learns about hollowlification (or gets hollowlified)
3.-Shinigami attempts to become a Vizard but unlike Ichigo loses and becomes a super hollow
4.-Super hollow evolves to Vasto Lorde rank. Despite his stregth it should still be counted as an avarage hollow and not even a menos giving him the chance to evolve further (remember this is supposed to create the strongest guy... so I know it seems stupid... in a way... or many)
5.-Super Vasto Lorde Hollow becomes an arrancar, thus an espada.

It passes through all evolutions... XD... DUMB

patedecarne
December 11, 2008, 08:34 AM
Do you know what could be an interesting twist now? the final battles, and Kubo has a jewel on his hands, he just needs to use it wisely.

Let's take a look on the old shounen formula: the main character must fight with the main antagonist and save the day. This is really boring and repetitive, but Kubo can change one thing or two...

Technically, Ichigo should fight with Aizen in the end, and following the logic, Yammamoto, whom is really powerful, should fight with Aizen first and lose, in order to provide the chance to Ichigo shine. I don't think this is the right thing to do. At my eyes, Ulquiorra is more of a villain than Aizen, at least to Ichigo. Aizen ordered Ulquiorra to kidnap Orihime, but was Ulquiorra the one who has commited the act. Since the beginning I always got the feeling that Ulquiorra was the true rival of Ichigo, not Aizen. Aizen's actions affected Ichigo indirectly until now, whereas Ulquiorra's actions have affected directly.

Aizen, in essence, is the true enemy of SS. Let's think about the Gaiden: since that time, Aizen was plotting against SS, and if someone must fight and defeated him, it's SS, not Ichigo; Not only Yammamoto, but everyone else in SS are so pissed off with Aizen, then let's give them the chance, neh? And I'm sure the hatred that Ichigo has toward Ulquiorra is more than enough to make this fight as unique and epic;

If Kubo breaks the chain of the old cliche formula, always present in the typical shounen, and make some modification, i.e., the fights must be set not by the formula, but by the inner reasons of the individual characters, we could see an interesting turn of events.

hyn_pride93
December 11, 2008, 10:23 PM
Technically, Ichigo should fight with Aizen in the end, and following the logic, Yammamoto, whom is really powerful, should fight with Aizen first and lose, in order to provide the chance to Ichigo shine. I don't think this is the right thing to do. At my eyes, Ulquiorra is more of a villain than Aizen, at least to Ichigo. Aizen ordered Ulquiorra to kidnap Orihime, but was Ulquiorra the one who has commited the act. Since the beginning I always got the feeling that Ulquiorra was the true rival of Ichigo, not Aizen. Aizen's actions affected Ichigo indirectly until now, whereas Ulquiorra's actions have affected directly.
Never thought of this one. Seems pretty probable pate. For one, Aizen has been thought of as the strongest, but we don't know that for sure. Ulquiorra could be the one in the end to take the Hougyoku for himself and give himself power and destroy Aizen. Sadly, Ulquiorra is too loyal to Aizen. This would probably throw everyone off along with the storyline but Kubo could be planning another betrayal, but this time, on Aizen's side.

Andonan
December 12, 2008, 04:22 AM
Either that or Urahara.....that could really fuck everyone over if as soon as Urahara got his hands back on the Hyokodgoafjhdsafoas (how ever you spell it) if he was just like oh btw Aizen was nothing on me MWHAHAHA that would surely fuck with everyone haha, nah won't happen but it would be funny :P

RICKisBOSS
December 12, 2008, 08:11 AM
I think Ulquiorra will be a major opponent towards Ichigo but eventually, I think it's going to come down to the main protagonist against the main antagonist. Ulquiorra is muscle at best as was Grimmjow who was eventually defeated by Ichigo's almighty 'resolve' and it would make sense for it all to end with cutting off that evil from the roots, that evil being Aizen.

But yeah,after reading the gaiden and confirming that Aizen is and has been notorious for many, many years, it's safe to say there are a lot of other people who have good reason to fight Aizen among those whose pasts haven't been revealed yet.

Aside from the Captain Commander and the Gotei 13 itself, you have more or less half of the previous members who want to go after him, people who were exiled on his behalf, and possibly the Royal Guard what with Aizen going as far as he's gone for the sake of power.

Isshin theories aside, I see Yamamoto or Shinji (/Vaizards whatever) going against Aizen but I'd definitely expect Urahara having some part in his downfall but still not being the one to defeat him, possibly at the cost of his life. When that is all said and done, the main character will more than likely defeat Aizen.

Thing with Bleach is, it doesn't follow the shonen formula half as much as it works off of its own formula and even then, through its twists", revelations, and contradictions builds itself to be a decent story but most of the expectations come from its readers if anything..

Kubo couldn't make something on the level of the SS-Arc again anytime soon if he wanted to. Even though its currently on a "war", by no means is it close to being a complete story, in a good and bad way :amuse

ryanzokuken
December 12, 2008, 09:43 AM
someone important to Ichigo needs to not just be kidnapped, but die.

Ichigo vs Aizen just isn't personal enough yet for a final battle. the main character needs a good, deep, personal beef with the main villain. there has to be some epic urgency or desperation.

it's gotta be made deadly personal.

Sevenheadedmirror
December 12, 2008, 02:36 PM
I understand no one awnsered my foolish post about the 'strongest character' but there are two things I don't Understand and I have post before and I will gently expose again for someone kind enough to explain it to me, one of them falls in a cooncept of popularity and the other of logic, thus only the logic one deserves an explanation:

1.-(AKA LOGIC ONE): why does people think Vizards will help Gotei 13?, I can see why me being a captain and getting owned by Aizen would make me mad and wish to kill him but, we have to carefully think of this, the Vizards have a small speech leaded by, how suprising, shinji in which he states they were in great debt and gave their full gratitude to Urahara... (this is where you change the page) and Aizen. I think they are going to be the next villians rather than the stupid Vasto Lorde Espada people seem to belive under no particular reason, though I like arrancar muc more than Vizards so Kudos to those people and may they be right! :amuse.

2.-(AKA just wanted to say this): really?, this arc is absolutely the worst I agree, the reason is evident: Tite Kubo went in a week pause before the arc started to think stuff through... being Bleach a weekly basis manga a whole mond would suck, that is what he is doing... I personally feel all this stupid shit is some sort of 'give me time I promise the espada's fights will be the greatest' kind of thing ; for those who don't know the name of this arc is: Fake Karakura town, thus involving only what has happened after turn back the pendulum. But enter Hueco Mundo and Conquistadores (Aka invasion of some s^**, sorry don't remember the name) were far greater than SS arc.

For starters didn't anyone see through Aizen's plan when Hitsu was blamed to be his killer and how stupid he is to come up with such a 'great' plan?, yes, may be Aizen was supposed to be death but at least our fox faced friend Gin rubbed us so strongly in the wrong way we implied that any ideas that came from his acts were supicious. The fantastic thing about SS arc is how everything seemed to be planned since the begining (Urahara placing the pearl in rukias body which suprisingly was taken to SS... makes Urahara supicious of becoming some sort of villian or it is a mini plot whole... but who cares if they skip it?, we like our Urahara how he is :p).

Let's face it if someone tells me that Nnoitra vs Zaraki ended stupidly with the two hand miracle blow in response I can say Ichigo beating Zaraki with a corny 'look inside you sword' instant power up wasn't any better as well as giving us the horrible idea that the same stuff could be pulled out in the 4th espada's fight.

Freeloadersan
December 12, 2008, 05:33 PM
I understand no one awnsered my foolish post about the 'strongest character' but there are two things I don't Understand and I have post before and I will gently expose again for someone kind enough to explain it to me, one of them falls in a cooncept of popularity and the other of logic, thus only the logic one deserves an explanation:

1.-(AKA LOGIC ONE): why does people think Vizards will help Gotei 13?, I can see why me being a captain and getting owned by Aizen would make me mad and wish to kill him but, we have to carefully think of this, the Vizards have a small speech leaded by, how suprising, shinji in which he states they were in great debt and gave their full gratitude to Urahara... (this is where you change the page) and Aizen. I think they are going to be the next villians rather than the stupid Vasto Lorde Espada people seem to belive under no particular reason, though I like arrancar muc more than Vizards so Kudos to those people and may they be right! :amuse.

I don't know if this is correct, but I got a different impression from the Vizards saying they were indebted to Urahara and then Aizen. In Urahara's case Shinji is shown playing with his hat on his finger as he says the line giving the impression that he actually means he indebted to Urahara. Now Aizen's case all the Vizards eyes are shown with a determined look on them. As well as a sword being grabbed. Which I think gives the "indebted" a different meaning like we owe Aizen an ass kicking.

ryanzokuken
December 12, 2008, 06:12 PM
I don't know if this is correct, but I got a different impression from the Vizards saying they were indebted to Urahara and then Aizen. In Urahara's case Shinji is shown playing with his hat on his finger as he says the line giving the impression that he actually means he indebted to Urahara. Now Aizen's case all the Vizards eyes are shown with a determined look on them. As well as a sword being grabbed. Which I think gives the "indebted" a different meaning like we owe Aizen an ass kicking.

thank you. i agree, and i felt that the meaning of their "thanks" to Aizen was relatively clear, but many people took it literally and view it as a sign that they may join him, which is ridiculous in my opinion.

Andonan
December 12, 2008, 09:23 PM
Yeah totally agree with Freeloader.....

But I know here Seven is coming from, you have to think back to when Urahara met Ichigo's dad again, Urahara stated that they are on their own side, I doubt they will help anyone, I have always said that SS are going to lose to Aizen Tousen and Gin (but beat the Espada) and when SS is down and out the Vizards will step in but never attempt to elp them during battle, they don't own anyone anything except Urahara.....

THM Nindo
December 15, 2008, 04:07 PM
Do you know what could be an interesting twist now? the final battles, and Kubo has a jewel on his hands, he just needs to use it wisely.

Let's take a look on the old shounen formula: the main character must fight with the main antagonist and save the day. This is really boring and repetitive, but Kubo can change one thing or two...

Technically, Ichigo should fight with Aizen in the end, and following the logic, Yammamoto, whom is really powerful, should fight with Aizen first and lose, in order to provide the chance to Ichigo shine. I don't think this is the right thing to do. At my eyes, Ulquiorra is more of a villain than Aizen, at least to Ichigo. Aizen ordered Ulquiorra to kidnap Orihime, but was Ulquiorra the one who has commited the act. Since the beginning I always got the feeling that Ulquiorra was the true rival of Ichigo, not Aizen. Aizen's actions affected Ichigo indirectly until now, whereas Ulquiorra's actions have affected directly.

Aizen, in essence, is the true enemy of SS. Let's think about the Gaiden: since that time, Aizen was plotting against SS, and if someone must fight and defeated him, it's SS, not Ichigo; Not only Yammamoto, but everyone else in SS are so pissed off with Aizen, then let's give them the chance, neh? And I'm sure the hatred that Ichigo has toward Ulquiorra is more than enough to make this fight as unique and epic;

If Kubo breaks the chain of the old cliche formula, always present in the typical shounen, and make some modification, i.e., the fights must be set not by the formula, but by the inner reasons of the individual characters, we could see an interesting turn of events.


Interesting, but I got another way to break from the formula.
At the end, Ichigo could fight against Aizen (or Ulquiorra) and die!!

Seriously, I'm sure that he will die at the end (I know that if I was Kubo I would kill him at the end)

It's not like if that was bad...
Him dying, he would be able to become a "Real" Shinigami and still be able to come see his family (who can see shinigami).

He might die right at the end, right after sucessfully killed the enemy, or something like that. That would fit well, I think.

patedecarne
December 16, 2008, 08:14 AM
I don't know if this is correct, but I got a different impression from the Vizards saying they were indebted to Urahara and then Aizen. In Urahara's case Shinji is shown playing with his hat on his finger as he says the line giving the impression that he actually means he indebted to Urahara. Now Aizen's case all the Vizards eyes are shown with a determined look on them. As well as a sword being grabbed. Which I think gives the "indebted" a different meaning like we owe Aizen an ass kicking.



POssibly the correct interpretation. Vaizards joining with Aizen, this is out of question. People must understand that Shinji was being cynical when talking about "indebted" to Aizen;

But there's the possibility that Shinji also was being cynical when talking about Urahara. Urahara did save them, but now they must live with the hollow side. Some of those moralist dilemma: To be dead or to be alive, but paying a high price?

Maybe in Shinji's mind, the "indebted" to Urahara could mean that Shinji actually hates Urahara for letting them alive, when the death would be the best choose... something like that...

Freeloadersan
December 17, 2008, 07:09 AM
It's quite possible they feel spite for Urahara for not killing them after he failed to save them. I personally don't catch that vibe from them. I don't see them helping the SS, although the SS may indirectly benefit from there hatred of Aizen. I can see them attacking the SS on their own accord as well. They are a complete wild card.

Something I noticed recently don't know if someone has mentioned it before but, I think it interesting when a Shinigami (ordered) is hollowified their organizational structure disapeared i.e. the Vizards have no discernible rank. When a hollow (chaotic) gets Shinigamified they form an organized structure ala espada. I'm sure this was intended.

Gecko Moria
December 18, 2008, 04:48 AM
POssibly the correct interpretation. Vaizards joining with Aizen, this is out of question. People must understand that Shinji was being cynical when talking about "indebted" to Aizen;

But there's the possibility that Shinji also was being cynical when talking about Urahara. Urahara did save them, but now they must live with the hollow side. Some of those moralist dilemma: To be dead or to be alive, but paying a high price?

Maybe in Shinji's mind, the "indebted" to Urahara could mean that Shinji actually hates Urahara for letting them alive, when the death would be the best choose... something like that...

Hmm so maybe they hate everyone except their own? Maybe after Aizen is defeated they will appear as the final villains...personally cant really see it happening though

Andonan
December 21, 2008, 05:33 AM
No the Vizards will want retribution against SS I'm sure but they won't get it through there own physicla hands, if I've said this once 've said it a dozen times the Vizards will watch and ENJOY SS get schooled by the top espada, possibly let one or two of them die and only get involved when Aizen comes into the picture.....

THM Nindo
December 23, 2008, 01:15 PM
Did I just read that Aizen would be defeated and that the Vizards would be the final enemies!?!

If that was too happen, I'll buy a ticket to Japan only to give a good kick in Kubo's balls. And only after that, if I can avoid prison, I'll go and see Mt.Fuji.:p

Seriously!

Vizards are strong indeed, they are as strong as Ichigo since they were able to contain his hollow version during the hollowfication.
But, even Ichigo with his mask on was able to defeat their chief (is Hiyori the boss? Or is it Shinji?)

So, they are absolutely no match againts all the SS.
I'm guessing they will eventually choose a side, which one I can't tell.

I'm thinking they will most likely be on Ichigo's side, but I also think that Ichigo will go against SS at some point again (when I mean against SS, I don't mean with Aizen!!!)

I guess that only time will tell!

Andonan
December 23, 2008, 09:15 PM
There is absolutely no reason why the Vizards would EVER side with Aizen, and anyone who doubts that is really quite foolish...... They may hate SS and not help them but they definitely want Aizen's head, which means they'll end up helping SS in an indirect way.....

Freeloadersan
December 23, 2008, 09:30 PM
Did I just read that Aizen would be defeated and that the Vizards would be the final enemies!?!

If that was too happen, I'll buy a ticket to Japan only to give a good kick in Kubo's balls. And only after that, if I can avoid prison, I'll go and see Mt.Fuji.:p

Seriously!

Vizards are strong indeed, they are as strong as Ichigo since they were able to contain his hollow version during the hollowfication.
But, even Ichigo with his mask on was able to defeat their chief (is Hiyori the boss? Or is it Shinji?)

So, they are absolutely no match againts all the SS.
I'm guessing they will eventually choose a side, which one I can't tell.

I'm thinking they will most likely be on Ichigo's side, but I also think that Ichigo will go against SS at some point again (when I mean against SS, I don't mean with Aizen!!!)

I guess that only time will tell!

The Vizards don't really have a chief or leader. The closest thing would be Shinji. Secondly, it wasn't Ichigo with his mask on it that beat Hiyori it was hollow Ichigo which imo is more powerful then Ichigo with his mask on (currently). Also Hiyori was only a Lt. when she was hollowified so she is no gauge for the strength of the Vizards.

Andonan
December 23, 2008, 09:50 PM
No I would say that Shinji is the definite leader, it seemed as if it was his plan to find and inaugurate Ichigo (i was about to type luffy for a second haha) and he was also Aizen's captain so he was the one most responsible (in his eyes) so I woudn't be surprised if he was the strongest by far.....

Darek Khort
December 24, 2008, 07:31 AM
No the Vizards will want retribution against SS I'm sure but they won't get it through there own physicla hands, if I've said this once 've said it a dozen times the Vizards will watch and ENJOY SS get schooled by the top espada, possibly let one or two of them die and only get involved when Aizen comes into the picture.....

This I agree with.
I sort of imagined the Vizards waiting until all of SS was near-defeat and then come to the rescue to show Yama and the rest of SS that in order to have any chance at defeating Aizen and the VLs (if none of the previously defeated Espada are VLs), they need the help of them, the Vizards.

In order to defeat those who have transcended their 'race' (aka arrancar), SS will need those who have done the same on their side of the coin (aka vizard) to do the same.

Afterall as far as I can imagine; if the Vizards just walked into SS and said "Hey, I have a hollow in me. Can I return to SS now?", chances are, it won't happen. On the other hand if they were to save SS, then Yama would (I'd imagine) be more forgiving and accepting of them.
And yes, you heard me. I do believe that the Vizards deep down inside would like to return to SS. I'd imagine after living in SS for all these years, Earth must be hell boring in comparison.

Andonan
December 24, 2008, 08:41 AM
HAHA Let's just wait and see :D

MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE :D

Well I wouldn't mind a spoiler free week will make things exciting, though then again I'm sort of use to knowing about a chapter by wednesday the fact that it's now like the end of friday I'm a little iriitated I want my weekly dose of bleach, and it was finally looking like a good chapter too :D

juice88
December 25, 2008, 06:22 PM
i dont think any captain is actually stronger than kenpachi he is the strongest with brute force he has the best fighting techniques and reaction anytime you can dodge a sword by moving after its started to cut you i think the only way you can beat him is with some special ability kidou based attack i mean what other way can you kill someone that doesnt mind getting cut and actually likes it

Chaoswind
December 25, 2008, 07:45 PM
i dont think any captain is actually stronger than kenpachi he is the strongest with brute force he has the best fighting techniques and reaction anytime you can dodge a sword by moving after its started to cut you i think the only way you can beat him is with some special ability kidou based attack i mean what other way can you kill someone that doesnt mind getting cut and actually likes it

:notrust is easy, you just keep cutting him until he dies, or just cut the head off... nothing beats some ol'd beheading

Sinfire
December 25, 2008, 07:46 PM
i dont think any captain is actually stronger than kenpachi he is the strongest with brute force he has the best fighting techniques and reaction anytime you can dodge a sword by moving after its started to cut you i think the only way you can beat him is with some special ability kidou based attack i mean what other way can you kill someone that doesnt mind getting cut and actually likes it

You'd most likely be wrong there. While we can't doubt that Zaraki is powerful, putting him above Yamamoto, Shunsui, Ukitake, and maybe even Unohana is just illogical. He's very strong, no doubt, but he's not invincible. Against Noitora he openly admitted that he would die if he didn't get his wounds treated. Anyone who could cut him enough or just deal one massive blow could beat him.


Hi i'm new to this thread but I was wondering if there is a bleach chapter this week?

We're not exactly sure. Naruto got spoiler pictures, so it appears that there is a Jump this week, but obviously no Bleach spoilers have come out yet. So I guess we'll have to wait and see. A few weeks back there were no spoilers and we still got a chapter, so maybe that is just what happened this week. Whatever the case, in another day, two tops, we'll know for sure.

Revan46
December 25, 2008, 08:04 PM
i dont think any captain is actually stronger than kenpachi he is the strongest with brute force he has the best fighting techniques and reaction anytime you can dodge a sword by moving after its started to cut you i think the only way you can beat him is with some special ability kidou based attack i mean what other way can you kill someone that doesnt mind getting cut and actually likes it

Well yes if you count in brute force Kenny takes the cake. But if you count in strength, intelligence, defense, kido skills, speed, and constitution well then he's nearly the bottom. According to the Data books (although not completely canon I believe), Zaraki is last place valuing in all the different stats. Now even in adding up just the combat stats (off, def, and mobility) he's 8th place tied with Komamura, Gin and Soi Fon. But yeah it's pretty safe to say he's not strongest.

Andonan
December 28, 2008, 09:32 AM
Strongest is a relative term, this is always debated in all the OP threads about WB being the "world's strongest" I think the same applies to Zaraki in this case. I think Zaraki is (as a base) the strongest captain, and could likely beat every captain, except for a few, my guess Byakua, Ukitake, Shunsui and CC....... but he does have the largest amount of raw reitsu out of everyone, probably even more than the CC.

.:Lella-Okami:.
December 28, 2008, 11:34 AM
I don't really think Ken is the strongest..or, as Andonan said, the strongest is relative...as far as I remember he doesn't fight with a strategy or plans or uses nothing else apart fro the sword...he's not immortal, if you keep blasting him he'll dye

Andonan
December 30, 2008, 03:01 AM
I think this whole "team 11 is the strongest" is a bit of an odd title, I actually wonder if it was originally mistranslated.......Because when you think of someone likeUkitake or Shunsui you think that they're far stronger captain, IMO of course....

I think the thing about Ken-chan though is that he ALWAYS finds a way to win with what he has.......

I think he could find a way to beat Shusui, Ukitake, Byuakua if he really wanted to...... but I think because he doesn't necessarily want to and considering that those 3 are far superior all round characters then we think of them as stronger......

Remember that Ken thought he could have come into SS by himself and handled the situation and I think if he had be forced to he could of.......he's one of those characters that won't ever really lose........well apart from to Ichigo haha

Castriota
December 30, 2008, 08:40 PM
you know what, after this war is over and if the vaizards to come and save the day as said, then if they're let back into ss there are still openings for captain positions where aizen gin and tosen left. plus weren't the ex-captain vaizards the captains of those same divisions?

Exodi
December 30, 2008, 09:49 PM
you know what, after this war is over and if the vaizards to come and save the day as said, then if they're let back into ss there are still openings for captain positions where aizen gin and tosen left. plus weren't the ex-captain vaizards the captains of those same divisions?

Nice, pointing that out.

Shinji > 5th Division
Kensei > 9th Division
Rose > 3rd Divison

Love was also a captain, but the spot for 7 is taken.

Tsukisama
December 30, 2008, 10:04 PM
you know what, after this war is over and if the vaizards to come and save the day as said, then if they're let back into ss there are still openings for captain positions where aizen gin and tosen left. plus weren't the ex-captain vaizards the captains of those same divisions?

I have seen that suggestion before (perhaps in this thread). Like Exodi points out, Komamura is occupying the position of 7th Division captain (although the last time this was suggested that was countered with suggesting Komamura would die).

One thing that I have against the vizard captain taking their old positions is what would happen to the other vizards. Should they return to being vice-captains?

I would like to think that the vizards have come to terms with whom they are and would not want to return to their old lives. They have stated that they hate SS, and even if in the end SS apologizes to them, I would prefer for them to remain their own unique group, just with an association with SS.

Castriota
December 30, 2008, 10:08 PM
yeah even though it'd be cool for them to go back, i'd think they'd be just like urahara. being a valuable asset to ss just on earth instead of in ss in general.

Andonan
January 01, 2009, 01:41 AM
The vizards could make there own community within SS, I think that could be an alternative or become apart of the Zero division, actually you wonder why Shunsui, Ukitake, and those sort of characters aren't apart of the zero division.....

SilversDKRayleigh
January 01, 2009, 02:14 AM
this is just a random statement but does anyone else want to see a rematch between yammy and chad.

just1n time
January 01, 2009, 12:02 PM
this is just a random statement but does anyone else want to see a rematch between yammy and chad.
i wouldn't mind seeing that. i like seeing chad fight anytime, though. he is getting more badass.


The vizards could make there own community within SS, I think that could be an alternative or become apart of the Zero division, actually you wonder why Shunsui, Ukitake, and those sort of characters aren't apart of the zero division.....

i think there will be lots of the vizards saving the day in the future, but i think they already have their own agenda besides stopping aizen, like money laundering for the mob. that will be the next arc. XD

SilversDKRayleigh
January 01, 2009, 04:01 PM
i wouldn't mind seeing that. i like seeing chad fight anytime, though. he is getting more badass.

I think it would also be pretty cool if his armor became a full suit of armor

zelllogan
January 01, 2009, 05:05 PM
I think it would also be pretty cool if his armor became a full suit of armor

Almost nobody cares about chad. His fighting style is boring, he is slow and he is weak. Because he is slow, his main strenght is his will. Among the "weaks" , rukia is by far more interesting. She have a beautiful zanpakuto and she will have bankai (probably). Plus, her personality is imo more interesting. Chad is just too sober.

And I don't count ishida among the weaks, I think his potential is way higher than rukia,chad,ikkaku or renji. You don't beat that crazy scientist if your potential isn't very high (even if it was a suicidal tech).

Yans86
January 03, 2009, 08:11 AM
Ishida is not a scientist..he is smart.really smart,and he has a lot of tools,but none of them was invented by him.
About Chad,he wasn't fast until the release of the Brazo Derecho del Gigante,also the privaron espada said that he could keep up with his sonido...

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/260/09/ http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/260/10/ this man looks badass http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/261/08/!!!!

About potential,I would say that Chad has the upper hand between those guys.Rukia,Ikkaku,Renki and Rukia too,have trained for how many years in SS?!How many trainings did Chad do?just two,one with Yoruichi and one fighting Renji in bankai.......

Andonan
January 03, 2009, 09:52 AM
Chad is going to turn out to be one of the most interesting characters in the whole series, because his power is still undefined, it is stated that it is like a hollow, but he is certainly not a hollow, ichigo is far closer to that than chad, then what is he? There could be another group similar to the Vizards that have Chads abilities and they could be introduced at a later stage, you never know. And yes i do think there will be a Yammi vs Chad II

Kyuubinoyoko
January 05, 2009, 01:34 PM
HOW DID ichigo beat kenpachi. then barely beat grimjow.

but kenpachi beats the guy thats stronger than him. the 5th espada????:blink:blink

Andonan
January 05, 2009, 05:33 PM
To answer your question simple Kyuubinoyoko,

GETSUGA PLOT HOLE!!!!!!!!!!!

sephysarkon
January 06, 2009, 02:48 AM
Chad is going to turn out to be one of the most interesting characters in the whole series, because his power is still undefined, it is stated that it is like a hollow, but he is certainly not a hollow, ichigo is far closer to that than chad, then what is he? There could be another group similar to the Vizards that have Chads abilities and they could be introduced at a later stage, you never know. And yes i do think there will be a Yammi vs Chad II

This struck me as interesting 'cause I agree. And for this post to not be entirely pointless...my guess (outta the far left field) is that it could have something to do with Heaven/Hell-whatevers area, provided they actually go there.

*shrug*

~the seph

ahhhhhhhgabe
January 07, 2009, 05:08 AM
yammi would probably be the most uninteresting thing to see in a bleach chapter at this point. unless he just shows up in the middle of the hueco mundo battle and gets blasted away.

actually no, the "10 vasto lord" theory that some people have been throwing around would be worse. if you're one of those people, THINK about what you're saying and how lame it would be.

aizen: oh no, my TOP TEN espada hollows have been defeated. just kidding, i've got more of em.

that'd be the worst thing that could happen. i'd stop reading bleach.

Aizen Sama
January 07, 2009, 07:00 AM
There will be new espada. Guaranteed. Aizen is using this skirmish to kill off all of the weak fighters.

javimgol
January 09, 2009, 07:18 PM
Tite Kubo said in their last interview in San Diego, in a comic meeting or something like that, that Chad would be more important in the future. I'd bet that Renji and Chad are going to fight Yammy, they need a win an a power-up (Renji has never won and Chad needs new powers if he doesn´t want to still being a baggage).
Kubo also said that Aizen is evilest than we thought, so I'm sure he has several trump cards. The first of all, as you have said, is WonderWeice, the first VastoLorde known (maybe Unohana could show a bit of his power against him, that would be a great and funny battle).
And about Ulq's release, i think he could be a beetle ("escarabajo", in Spanish). The release would be:
Clean, ESCARABAJO (obviuosly, Japanese would read "eskerebisu" or something odd like that)

Andonan
January 10, 2009, 04:17 AM
Honestly I could bare it if WW was another VL and was like Aizen's ultimate playing card but if there are more then i think I'll just stop reading bleach for 6 months and come back in when the next round of fodder fights are over....

Evil3ye
January 10, 2009, 06:48 AM
Tite Kubo said in their last interview in San Diego, in a comic meeting or something like that, that Chad would be more important in the future. I'd bet that Renji and Chad are going to fight Yammy, they need a win an a power-up (Renji has never won and Chad needs new powers if he doesn´t want to still being a baggage).
Kubo also said that Aizen is evilest than we thought, so I'm sure he has several trump cards. The first of all, as you have said, is WonderWeice, the first VastoLorde known (maybe Unohana could show a bit of his power against him, that would be a great and funny battle).


Hmm yeah.. Chad vs Yammy is very likey and would be very typical for Kube. It's like with Ichigo vs Byakuya, Ichigo vs Grimmjow, (soon Ichigo vs Ulquiorra), yawn.
Chad needs a victory now against his rival Yammy, that fight is unavoidable in Kube's eyes lol

But I'm not sure if he'll need some help or not. I guess Rukia against the executor has a major problem. But maybe they split of and Uruyu will be her help - btw, those two never fought together till now :tem
Could be a funny pair.

Wonderwyce vs Unohana could be very interesting, too, I agree.

And Aizen - is even more evil than we thought? - Maybe because of the plot with Orihime,
Orihime as Espade #0? :D

Or maybe he is going to betray his loyal colleagues, but which of them? Espada Top3? Tousen & Gin?
We'll see :P

Andonan
January 11, 2009, 07:31 AM
My gut feeling is Aizen is a user, and abuses all who are around him, if Gin and Tousen are at all smart than they will know not to trust Aizen, which in my eyes makes me believe that at some point there will be a Gin vs Aizen.....battle for top dog.....

pjboom
January 11, 2009, 05:28 PM
Well I'm convinced that Ichigo's hollow is a Vasto, so their release could be something like this http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/222/02/.

mmm this http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/222/04/ reminds me to http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/271/08/.

kkck
January 11, 2009, 07:40 PM
I think that based on his eyes and the scaly look of his mask, he will definitely be something reptilian. . . the only thing I can't decide is whether he will stay more humanoid or be like an animal.

Personaly I always thought that ulquiorras release would have something to do with emotions. given the theme that ulquiorra has had so far I doupt he will have an animal theme, I just cant see him resembling any animal. I could also see his release having an eye thing, maybe even tears. I wouldnt be surprised at a release comand like "shed all your tears" lol.
[hr]

Well I'm convinced that Ichigo's hollow is a Vasto, so their release could be something like this http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/222/02/.

mmm this http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/222/04/ reminds me to http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/271/08/.

I always had my doupts about shirosaki being a vasto lord. The guy clearly is more powerfull than ichigo (or so it appears in every fight lol), but for him to be a vasto lord he would have to be composed of hundreds of thousands of hollows. Shirosaki is a powerful hollow and probably has VL level but I dont think he himself is a vasto lord.

xXAshisogiJizoXx
January 11, 2009, 08:14 PM
I always had my doupts about shirosaki being a vasto lord. The guy clearly is more powerfull than ichigo (or so it appears in every fight lol), but for him to be a vasto lord he would have to be composed of hundreds of thousands of hollows. Shirosaki is a powerful hollow and probably has VL level but I dont think he himself is a vasto lord.

agreed. inner hollows aren't regular menos. they are sum sort of representation of the being they are part of, and because of that, as you say, they can be immensly powerful, but cant fall under the gillian/adjucas/vasto categories.

as for grimm, still hopin he'll become a good guy anti-hero. no way kubo is just gonna throw away the 4th most popular character.

juice88
January 11, 2009, 08:19 PM
didnt realize i was agreeing with the post above

Well I'm convinced that Ichigo's hollow is a Vasto, so their release could be something like this http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/222/02/.

mmm this http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/222/04/ reminds me to http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/271/08/.

ichigos inner hollow isnt actually a hollow in the since its just his inner power split with hollow spirit pressure thats its not like some hollow came in is body thats like saying that the espadas inner soul reaper power is captain level soul reapers
[hr]
[QUOTE=Evil3ye;1176051]Didn't Zommari say he's the fastest Espada, or sth? xD
<hr noshade size="1">

\
he sad he has the fastest sonido which is like a flash step thats different from pure speed like ichigo i doubt ichigo even knows how to flash step

Hockeychaoz
January 11, 2009, 09:07 PM
didnt realize i was agreeing with the post above


ichigos inner hollow isnt actually a hollow in the since its just his inner power split with hollow spirit pressure thats its not like some hollow came in is body thats like saying that the espadas inner soul reaper power is captain level soul reapers
<hr noshade size="1">
[QUOTE=Evil3ye;1176051]Didn't Zommari say he's the fastest Espada, or sth? xD
<hr noshade size="1">

\
he sad he has the fastest sonido which is like a flash step thats different from pure speed like ichigo i doubt ichigo even knows how to flash step

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/160/11/

Andonan
January 11, 2009, 10:38 PM
Ther isn't really anything I can say that hasn't already been said. Shirosaki is simply a Holowfied representation of Ichigo, And the mask and all the other parts of Shirosaki in corporal form is simply how Ichigo would have looked had he not overcome his inner struggle back in like chapter 25

Rocky D. Brittania
January 12, 2009, 12:38 AM
So i hate to prolong the topic of Shirosaki being a hollow or not, but isn't it possible that he is. After all, any normal humans soul can turn into a hollow so maybe shirosaki is the part of Ichigo that would have turned into a full on hollow.

And i think the reason why Shirosaki is so awesome and powerful is because of the hougyoku. In the chapters explaining it they said that the hougyoku breaks the barrier between hollow powers and shinigami powers. Since he was in such close contact with rukia who had it inside her all along it slowly had an effect on him.

Urahara said that Ichigo had shinigami powers of his own all along and that rukia just awoke them when she gave him hers. So maybe everyone has potential to have hollow powers and everyone has the potential to have shinigami powers. That's why everyone in soul society that tries and goes to the SS academy gets shinigami powers, and anyone that refuses to pass on after dying and such evetually becomes a hollow. I think that both his hollow powers and shinigami powers have been awakened, just like the VZ.

Those are just my thoughts on the matter though, take em or leave em :D

Sorry if im going off the topic of 340 discussion/341 predictions but im assumig that this is something that pertains to what will happen with Ichigo in the following chapters.

Rocky D. Brittania
January 12, 2009, 01:34 AM
So i started re-reading the entire series today and i was wondering why this has never come up in the manga again?
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/12/11/

It's a gate to hell that opens when hollows that were bad people when they were humans get killed as hollow. Did Kubo just forget about it? Or has every hollow that's been killed since then been a good person before they died?...

Evil3ye
January 12, 2009, 02:23 AM
as for grimm, still hopin he'll become a good guy anti-hero. no way kubo is just gonna throw away the 4th most popular character.

Geez, we've got that so many times in Bleach. Remember Ikkaku, Yumichika, then Kenpachi, Renji, then Byakuya *yawn*

No I'm really against Grimmjow to become a good boy. All conviction aside bout his popularity, I hope he won't be affected by Ichigo's "Power of Love", like someone said before. :blink

It's ok for Neliel and her fraccions to become good, but Grimmjow.. that's simply too much, I think. :notrust

Andonan
January 12, 2009, 02:25 AM
This discussion has come up a couple of times over the past few weeks, either he renamed Hell to HM for obvious reasons or it will be brought up at a later date, or not mentioned at all, my guess would be with the latter

Well Neliel was always good, the only way I see Grim being a goody is if Aizen betrays all of the Hollows,, which at this point is likely but he'll never be in the spot light after all this espada business is over.....

drakend
January 12, 2009, 03:17 AM
Again with "Shirosaki is a vastroode!" bullshit?
Shirosaki is clearly an hybrid thus he CANNOT BE a vastroode, which indicates the strongest type of menos grande, a PURE HOLLOW.

Evil3ye
January 12, 2009, 03:33 AM
Well Neliel was always good, the only way I see Grim being a goody is if Aizen betrays all of the Hollows,, which at this point is likely but he'll never be in the spot light after all this espada business is over.....

I see it the same way. Aizen may betray his Espada, or his other mates, that is Gin. (Don't think it could be Tousen, because he's a victim of his Hypnosis)

- - -
To "Shirosaki is a vastroode!":
Shirosaki is not even an Arrancer, is he? And only Arrancers can be VLs XDD

Rocky D. Brittania
January 12, 2009, 03:44 AM
I want Inoue to use her powers to heal Nel, Pesche and Dondachaka so that they'll all get their original forms/ maska back. Pesche and Donda have been secretly training all these years so maybe they'd be badass and powerful when they get healed. Also, healing them would give everyone a way out of heuco mundo without having to use bleach's magical "friend power" theme to get grimmjow or Ulquoira to open a warp thing, cause Nel could!

Evil3ye
January 12, 2009, 04:11 AM
I want Inoue to use her powers to heal Nel, Pesche and Dondachaka so that they'll all get their original forms/ maska back. Pesche and Donda have been secretly training all these years so maybe they'd be badass and powerful when they get healed. Also, healing them would give everyone a way out of heuco mundo without having to use bleach's magical "friend power" theme to get grimmjow or Ulquoira to open a warp thing, cause Nel could!

That's for true!

A really good possibility for them to get out, and I quess Orihime can do that for sure! But there's still the question whether she's still the good innocent girl, or a corrupted bitch. :notrust

We still don't know..
Also, do Orihime really want an other woman for Ichigo? (besides Rukia)
I won't be surprised if she consider Nel as a competition.

Rocky D. Brittania
January 12, 2009, 04:37 AM
That's for true!

A really good possibility for them to get out, and I quess Orihime can do that for sure! But there's still the question whether she's still the good innocent girl, or a corrupted bitch. :notrust




Hahaha true.



We still don't know..
Also, do Orihime really want an other woman for Ichigo? (besides Rukia)
I won't be surprised if she consider Nel as a competition.



I could see her tripping out about Nel, she gets like that sometimes. For example the rukia/ichigo thing? Just can't see it. He likes them t'ig ol b'itties and Orihime is STACKED :headbang
Plus Nel is an arrancar...lol, turns into a centaur when she releases... lol.

Evil3ye
January 12, 2009, 06:25 AM
The 1-3 espada will probably take a more outfit or armor type change like someone said samurai, ninja, knight, king, something like that

I remembered now Luppi's release - it was not really animal-like, I guess (or most likely a octopus? :blink or some kind of spider :blink), BUT some kind of weapon. Cuz this face didn't cange - like for example Grimmjow's release, Nnoitra's, Szayel's etc.. - only his mask grew a little more
It really looked like it's a armor! :s

Ok.. noone said Luppi is a VL,.. so what? :amuse

Andonan
January 12, 2009, 07:00 AM
Wow I hope Kubo does that neliel would be a badass character to have floating around for the rest of the series , only as neliel not nel.....though i can imagine Kubo doing the whole "since Orihime healed me i can change at a whime between adult and baby form isn't it cool?!?!? Andi like baby form i get more attention this way so i'm going to remain like this"......

Every bleach fan everyone: "*sigh*"

Andonan
January 12, 2009, 07:04 AM
Sorry evil i'm totally going to cut u down so be prepared........Luppi was LAME!!!! sorry mate no one cares about that dude he was a shame to be ever put in the Espada especially number 6.....>SHAME!

Evil3ye
January 12, 2009, 08:23 AM
Sorry evil i'm totally going to cut u down so be prepared........Luppi was LAME!!!! sorry mate no one cares about that dude he was a shame to be ever put in the Espada especially number 6.....>SHAME!

Yeah, sure that might be right..
He was not strong at all. But his release is something I can link with the VLs - cuz noone had such a release like Luppi had, till now.

That's why I would say he could be a VL, the only thing is that he was much weaker :blink

I guess the Top 3 or 4 will have sth like this, too - not an animal release but some kind of suit of armor or weapon. Luppi could give us the clue for that.

But we'll see lastly, when Ulquiorra show us his release. (hope this week :p)

chihoho
January 12, 2009, 06:09 PM
possible release:

4th espada Ulquiorra: demon form
3th espada halibel: tengu form ( that's a god with a big nose and black wing with a windfan)
2th espada Barragan: king kong form
1th espada Stark : human form with a ridduclous strong hollow armor

ryanzokuken
January 12, 2009, 09:28 PM
i thought tengu were just known as demons from the mountains?

anyways...

about Grimm turning good, why would that require Aizen betraying the hollows?
as if Grimm needs any more reason to fight against Aizen's forces than he has already been given? LOL

he already hates damn near everyone on his own side and gets along with nobody now that his fraccion are gone.

he's shown negative feelings/view, rebeliousness, and disobedience towards Aizen and Tousen on more than one occasion.

a sort of rivalry and constant abrasiveness with Ulquiorra.

he now has a bond formed with Ichigo. sure, they probably won't be buddy buddy, nor will Grimm be a genuine "good guy", but he and Ichigo now have a "i hate you but i respect you" kind of relationship, like the start of the Goku-Vegeta relationship.

how he was treated by Noitora, along with Ichigo protecting him; that was probably the final straw.

if he lives, i have no doubt he will fight against Aizen's side now.

Andonan
January 12, 2009, 10:17 PM
Yeah but I see Grim as one not to really care about any of that just to go away and lick his wounds and not really come out until he is provoked or witnesses Ulq's fight would be me guess....

sephysarkon
January 13, 2009, 12:57 AM
I think Luppi's release was that of an octopus, but that's just me. That seems most like it at any rate.

I still think that the Top 4 will more/less be something less animal, and more humanoid, whether it be like a demon/mystical/legendary thing like someone said, or armor + weapons that're kickass.

And about Grimm... Erm, I don't want him to be a (genuine) good guy 'cause that'd just ruin his character already. Like Ryan said, he kinda hates everybody, but does have the "...I still respect you *grumble grumble moan groan PUNCH*" thing with Ichigo.

I see him possibly helping only if it benefits him. He could get back at Aizen & Tousen, or get to fight Ichigo again.

Then again if he's that lonely... *hmms*

~the seph

chihoho
January 13, 2009, 04:32 AM
i'm wondering when the vaizards are coming? My guess will be when all the top 3 espada has released there form.

Krision
January 13, 2009, 07:21 PM
Hi guys, new member here :)


i'm wondering when the vaizards are coming? My guess will be when all the top 3 espada has released there form.

The discussion about the Vasto Lordes realease form and the Vaizard brought me this idea:

The Vaizard follow this line: Shinigami>Shikai>Bankai>Inner Hollow... Woudn't be awesome if the top Espada (at least the Vasto Lordes) could get something alike: Hollow>Arrancar>Ressurection>Bankai?

Imagine Stark in his release (if he's a Vasto Lorde), after pwning some captain/s, calling his bankai...

Charlie
January 13, 2009, 07:32 PM
@Krision:

Its a nice idea and I get what you mean, but I think Ressurection is the banki equivalent for the Arrancar/Espada.

Andonan
January 13, 2009, 08:19 PM
The Vizards will make the scene when all of the captains have gotten their ass severally whooped by the Top 3 Espada....

Red Hood
January 14, 2009, 12:31 PM
Yeah. But wich side they will take? Even tho i think they will go against Aisen or maybe they will just tease everyone around, like a battleroyal. :P

PitchBlack857
January 14, 2009, 12:38 PM
I just wanna see the dynamic duo(Aizen and Gin) style on some captains b.

Forever_Melody
January 14, 2009, 12:43 PM
Bleach is always a neglected section on most manga forums :( Such a pity. Well I'd help, but I'm not exactly the mod for Bleach currently >.>

enraI
January 14, 2009, 01:33 PM
bleach is the only manga that doesnt have a spoiler yet !!!!!!!

Oni_James
January 14, 2009, 01:47 PM
bleach is the only manga that doesnt have a spoiler yet !!!!!!!
also Katekyo Hitman Reborn!, Gintama, Bakuman and Eyeshield 21, and no other Jump! series have any spoiler yet, so wait... Naruto and One piece represents most of Jump! it's curious how it seems 3 series > the other 18 series in Jump! XD
it's true nearly always Bleach spoilers are out late, that's bad, because Kubo sometimes makes really brilliant chapters, i really hope in some weeks a triple release of the three top espada, also in the upcoming chapters Aizen and the others must make some signs of life or i'll end up thinking they have disappeared XD

LordZet
January 14, 2009, 11:16 PM
I think Luppi's release was that of an octopus, but that's just me. That seems most like it at any rate.

I still think that the Top 4 will more/less be something less animal, and more humanoid, whether it be like a demon/mystical/legendary thing like someone said, or armor + weapons that're kickass.

And about Grimm... Erm, I don't want him to be a (genuine) good guy 'cause that'd just ruin his character already. Like Ryan said, he kinda hates everybody, but does have the "...I still respect you *grumble grumble moan groan PUNCH*" thing with Ichigo.

I see him possibly helping only if it benefits him. He could get back at Aizen & Tousen, or get to fight Ichigo again.

Then again if he's that lonely... *hmms*

~the seph

I see him as becoming King of HM. Maybe getting a lot stronger and deciding to become King of the Hollows. He creates a new espada group, and starts a new war with SS.

THey invade and he fights a fully powered Ichigo. Ichigo barely wins, and grimmjow dies a hero.

Rocky D. Brittania
January 15, 2009, 02:25 AM
holy shit! Orihime is for sure on aizen's side or an espada or something weird because when Rukia beat #9 and almost died she saw what happened. And only other espada and stuff could see it cause Ichigo and them just sensed it. Read this page and the 2 following it http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/270/15/

ryanzokuken
January 15, 2009, 02:54 AM
not necessarily anything significant. after all, they got her to come of her own free will, dressed her in an outfit to match the rest of them, and give her a place to stay. she's been considered a comrade since she came, whether she really wants to be or not. (she still has to be kept in a prison-like room and watched over by Ulq)

but that "comradery" alone could be enough for AA's little scene transfering to her as well as the others.

Andonan
January 15, 2009, 09:57 AM
If Orihime goes Bad i'll be pretty pissed because for me that would be coming WAY out of left field especially after Grim vs Ichigo

Forever_Melody
January 15, 2009, 02:08 PM
Hey, what happened to Wonderwice I wonder :blink

Evil3ye
January 15, 2009, 03:39 PM
He's still hanging in HM and waiting for his big comeback..!
Remember this words: It will be Big!

ryanzokuken
January 15, 2009, 06:29 PM
it will be a heart warming motion picture about a mentally handicaped arrancar...
who found the strength and the courage...
to defy the odds...
and show the world...
what a retarded hollow can be capable of.

*end dramatic narration voice, cue the sad yet inspirational music*

Forever_Melody
January 15, 2009, 10:56 PM
Hye, Wonderwice even surprised Urahara >.> And he took a full blast of Urahara's Shikai blast and remained unharmed, a feat only Ulquiora has done so far.

Andonan
January 16, 2009, 10:13 AM
When did Urahara and WW met i don't remember this???

Evil3ye
January 16, 2009, 12:18 PM
When did Urahara and WW met i don't remember this???

That time when Yammy, one Armed Grimmjow, Luppi and Wonderwice were in the human world :nuts

Forever_Melody
January 16, 2009, 12:19 PM
When Luppi & co went to the real world, Urahara met with Yammi to fight and Wonderwice jumped him for a second. Urahara then blasted him with his Shikai and Wonderwice lost interest in Urahara. It's around chapter 233 (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/233/14/).

ryanzokuken
January 16, 2009, 04:19 PM
Hye, Wonderwice even surprised Urahara >.> And he took a full blast of Urahara's Shikai blast and remained unharmed, a feat only Ulquiora has done so far.

Ulq deflected the blast away with his hand with some effort. he didn't take a hit at all, let alone full blast.

and i don't remember Wonderweiss taking a full hit either? i'll go check it out.

and i wasn't saying he's not powerful, just that he's retarded, and it's retarded that he's powerful. lol.

he's at least espada level, as his blip was crimson along with the others on the screen in SS.

Andonan
January 17, 2009, 09:22 AM
Oh cool, i haven't read those early Arrancarr chapters for a long time so I'd forgotten about that encounter thanks guys :D

Forever_Melody
January 17, 2009, 11:05 AM
Ulq deflected the blast away with his hand with some effort. he didn't take a hit at all, let alone full blast.

and i don't remember Wonderweiss taking a full hit either? i'll go check it out.

and i wasn't saying he's not powerful, just that he's retarded, and it's retarded that he's powerful. lol.

he's at least espada level, as his blip was crimson along with the others on the screen in SS.

Ok I'm willing to agree Ulquiorra didn't actually take a hit, but he deflected the attack. Still, on a technical sense, his hand itself DID take a hit lol :p And his hand emerged fine.

As for Wonderwice getting hit, I agree that by looking at this (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/233/15/) page, it does seem as though Wonderwice evaded the attack.

And I don't really see it as retarded lol :p I mean, in series, usually people with great powers are unaware of it or are simply not that much into it.

But yeah, Wonderwice's reiatsu seems to be on Espada level. Remember that when we saw him in his hollow form(the bandaged thing), the hollow was quite humanoid, so Wonderwice must be a powerful Menos(as the shape of the hollow approaches a human more as they become a Vasto Lorde).

Evil3ye
January 17, 2009, 12:23 PM
But yeah, Wonderwice's reiatsu seems to be on Espada level.

I would definatly place him into the Top5, if not even Top3 :blink


Remember that when we saw him in his hollow form(the bandaged thing), the hollow was quite humanoid, so Wonderwice must be a powerful Menos(as the shape of the hollow approaches a human more as they become a Vasto Lorde).

What do you mean? :notrust Can't remembre seeing him in a kind of Hollowform. Or do you mixed him with Luppi (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/233/06/)?

EDIT: Ahh.. now I get it.. you mean that scene: http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/229/12-13/ :D
I was looking for the nudescene (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/229/16/) and found it :tem

.:Lella-Okami:.
January 18, 2009, 05:18 AM
IMO, WW as lot said was introduced for something,I think he'll have an important role sooner or later....by the way, in that scene, what was that look on ulquiorra face, he's a pervert! O_O XD