PDA

View Full Version : World Vasto Lordes, Adjuccas and Gillians



Krillos
August 19, 2006, 08:31 AM
A Vasto Lorde is considering to be the most powerful Hollow in existence. And Vasto Lorde as an arrancar is likely the most ultimate yet fearsome being to bout.

The question is: how will our heroes handle one of those über-beings and how will it affect the story? Let us hear you peoples' opinion!


Modified the title to cover a little bit broader topic since the thread was digressing slightly, but not enough to merit a new thread. ~ WL

ryderdm3
August 19, 2006, 12:02 PM
It is believed that Ulquiorra is one. At this point I think he would kill pretty much anyone expect perhaps the strongest the Vaizards or Shinigami have to offer. Meaning, I think he'd be able to kill everyone except the top 3 or 4 captains, including Urahara, and Shinji from the Vaizards.

He commented that Ichigo was stronger than him when his power was fluctuating. I assume that is the power we'll see once Ichigo can master his Hollow. At that point those two should fight, since Ulquiorra loves to keep taunting him.

Krillos
August 19, 2006, 02:41 PM
Hmmm... but I think Ulquiorra is an Adjuchas, since he rarely fights and mostly uses his intelligence in combat.

ryderdm3
August 19, 2006, 08:27 PM
I believe when Hitsugaya talked about the different classes of hollows, that Ulquiorra's shadowed image was the one he used for a Vasto Lorde. He may rarely fight, but that is because no one has actually forced him to fight. From what we've seen and heard from him, it's likely that he'd kill the majority of people 1on1. He said he couldn't take Yoruichi and Urahara on at the same time, but I'm sure he can take Yoruichi on by himself and perhaps even Urahara as well.

I think we'll discover that several of the other current Espada are of similar class as well, and that's not including what other ones Aizen adds later.

Krillos
August 20, 2006, 03:54 AM
I wonder if Grimmjaw is a Vasto Lorde? If not, then he shouldn't mess around with Ulquiorra (if he were a Vasto Lorde) otherwise.

gigantor21
August 20, 2006, 08:57 AM
I wonder if Grimmjaw is a Vasto Lorde? If not, then he shouldn't mess around with Ulquiorra (if he were a Vasto Lorde) otherwise.


Well, it could go either way. Tousen could've kicked his ass because he was a former Ajuuca, or because he's stronger than a Vastorode-based Arrancar now. In either case, I'm assuming that Tousen and Gin are just as powerful, if not more-so, than the lower half of the Espada--and I don't even want to talk about Aizen.

But yeah, Kubotite's been pretty ambiguous about what types of Hollows most of the Espada were before hybridization, so I can't really say for sure...but I think that he was an Ajuuca, and Ulquiorra was a Vastorode. So I agree--Grimmjow should NOT be messing with him, especially since he seems to be Aizen's favorite.

sengpoi
August 21, 2006, 12:55 AM
vasto lorde = espada?

nillut
August 21, 2006, 01:38 AM
I believe when Hitsugaya talked about the different classes of hollows, that Ulquiorra's shadowed image was the one he used for a Vasto Lorde. He may rarely fight, but that is because no one has actually forced him to fight. From what we've seen and heard from him, it's likely that he'd kill the majority of people 1on1. He said he couldn't take Yoruichi and Urahara on at the same time, but I'm sure he can take Yoruichi on by himself and perhaps even Urahara as well.

I think we'll discover that several of the other current Espada are of similar class as well, and that's not including what other ones Aizen adds later.


He actually said something like "What a foolish taunt! If the two of you try to fight me while trying to protect that trash(ichigo) at the same time... It is fairly obvious who would have the upper hand!" That sounds more like he could take them both, but like he said on the next page: his mission is complete, "ichigo is nothing more than a piece of trash unworthy of Aizen's attention".
I doubt Tousen would chop of the arm of a vastorode-based arrancar, not because he couildn't, but because they are so few in numbers and they will surely need as many of them as possible in the upcoming war.
And sengpoi: Vastorode = the highest form of menos. Espada = the ten strongest arrancar. We really don't know how many of the espada(if any) are vastorode based.

Urazz
August 21, 2006, 07:13 AM
Wasn't it also said that there weren't that many vastrode too so I'm assuming Aizen doesn't have any on his side.

ryderdm3
August 21, 2006, 09:46 AM
There aren't many so it's unlikely that Aizen will have a whole army of them, rather just the few that he is able to recruit.

nillut - He does say that, but on the page before that he says "These two are far beyond our level. At this rate we'll lose.... ....unless we retreat". You are right though, it's probably unlikely that they Urahara and Yoruichi could fight Ulquiorra and protect all their friends at the same time. However, if they weren't in that situation, there is no doubt in my mind that Ulquiorra wouldn't have won.

Urazz
August 22, 2006, 08:32 AM
There aren't many so it's unlikely that Aizen will have a whole army of them, rather just the few that he is able to recruit.

nillut - He does say that, but on the page before that he says "These two are far beyond our level. At this rate we'll lose.... ....unless we retreat". You are right though, it's probably unlikely that they Urahara and Yoruichi could fight Ulquiorra and protect all their friends at the same time. However, if they weren't in that situation, there is no doubt in my mind that Ulquiorra wouldn't have won.

I gotta agree, when you have to protect someone you end up leaving yourself open to attack when you move to protect that person and you also are limited in the moves you can make as well.

kobisaki
September 05, 2006, 12:05 PM
I don't think we have seen any vastoroode yet, expect maybe for ulquiorra.

mugen
September 10, 2006, 08:58 AM
Well aren't all the espada "vasteo lorde". I thought this was already known.

poopoomaru
September 11, 2006, 02:02 AM
I dont think we have seen any of the Vasto Lorde either , I dont think we have because from what Hitsugaya said , A single Vasto Lorde is significantly stronger then then anyone Captain Level Shinigami , 10 of them being enough to conquer all of soul society. Being turned into an Arrancar should add power not take away , especially for a vasto lorde considering that being turned into an arrancar really does change them physically a whole lot other then giving them a zanpakuto. And I just dont think that any of the Espada have shown that level of power yet. If any of them I would have to say either Ulquiorra , or/and Grimmjaw.

alekosss_kenpachi
September 24, 2006, 05:02 PM
No one of the espada is a vastrorode...but i wish Grimmjaw was one of them cause he is one of my favorite villains!!!But i consider ichigo's hollow to be a vastrorode 4 sure!!!

mugen
September 24, 2006, 05:08 PM
I don't know maybe Aizen already has a couple of Vastro Lorde in the Espada . But he's just trying to get a couple more.

poopoomaru
September 28, 2006, 10:25 PM
so what do you guys think the vasto lorde are like? Super intelligent? you think they are calm or crazy and/or saddistic?

mugen
September 28, 2006, 10:28 PM
I think they really don't have in interest in neither Soul Society or human world. Which would probably be why Aizen has trouble finding or better yet recruiting them.

poopoomaru
September 28, 2006, 10:32 PM
Well I mean they have to have some interest right? I mean they Eat human souls , and considering they are many many hollows combined their hunger has to be pretty bad , so they have to at some point go to the human world or SS to pluck powerful souls , actually I think SS would be the only place to find souls suitable enough for a vasto lorde

mugen
September 28, 2006, 10:44 PM
Not really It's been implied that they're really strong so they probably don't really need aizen's help also If they're as strong as implied why work with Aizen. I've been also wondering did the hallows have a leader before Aizen

poopoomaru
September 28, 2006, 11:10 PM
well if they did it all hd to be based completely on strength , so a vasto lorde had to be on the top , and even so there is only a hand full of vasto lorde so who knows if they cared enough to lead the hollows , I mean I am sure the lorde probably had a few gillian in there pocket but other then that I dunno. another question is wtf was that eye behind the gillian that rescued aizen and co.? from what SS know Gillian are the biggest of the hollow types , yet that eye was several times bigger then the gillian. couldnt be a vasto lorde they are small human sized.

Maybe that was the psuedo leader of the hollows before Aizen , and Aizen just partnered up, or pwned him in a fight , cuz really I dunno how he could just convince all the gillian to follow him , it would be like tell a pack of wolfs to become civilized , they would just fight and die not understanding what was happening , so maybe ht big one is like the alpha male of all the gillian and possibly the adjuhha and thats how Aizen controls them , through a deal with the Alpha Gillian

alekosss_kenpachi
September 29, 2006, 06:04 PM
I think that a very strong motive to follow aizen is that he offers them more strength..Who would say NO to more power?So even a vastrorode would be wise enough to become aizen's underlign at least for the time being.

poopoomaru
September 29, 2006, 10:50 PM
Hmm yea I could understand the Vasto lorde listening to him but I mean what about the Gillian? they dont seem intelligent enough to understand words , so I think for them he had to have made some deal maybe with that Alpha Gillian , But yea with Vasto Lorde he could have just walked up on them and been like "Hey there , do you want some tea. . . ?

Krillos
October 24, 2006, 02:49 AM
I think the differences of the Gillians, Adjuchas and Vasto Lorde might be the masks. But WHAT the difference is unknown so far.

Lohnt
October 24, 2006, 06:03 AM
Well if that "list" of the arrancar's and espada turns out to be true, Espada's 1-7 are Vasto Lords, which heavily dissappoints me since it lessens the chance we'll get to see many Vasto Lords outside of arrancar form.

sharinganLS
October 24, 2006, 08:47 AM
I think that a very strong motive to follow aizen is that he offers them more strength..Who would say NO to more power?So even a vastrorode would be wise enough to become aizen's underlign at least for the time being.

Yes that makes sence; i wonder how strong are these vato Lordes... hmmm stronger than an average caption?

ttxdragon
October 24, 2006, 09:06 AM
Yes that makes sence; i wonder how strong are these vato Lordes... hmmm stronger than an average caption?

the manga once said that a vasto lorde or however you wanna call them is definitely over a single captains ability... i think it was vasto lorde.... i dont know which chapter it was.... but i think it was at the end of the SS-Arc in a speech by genryuusai

WinterLion
October 24, 2006, 12:31 PM
the manga once said that a vasto lorde or however you wanna call them is definitely over a single captains ability... i think it was vasto lorde.... i dont know which chapter it was.... but i think it was at the end of the SS-Arc in a speech by genryuusai

It was actually mentioned by Hitsun when he was discussing the different levels of Menos with Ichigo. End of vol 22 in the tanko, ch 197. He said that the Vasto Lorde class's fighting abilities were above that of a captain level. And he also said that at that point, if Aizen had 10 or more of those Vasto Lorde's under his command, it would be the end of SS. Aizen should also know that. So the fact that he hasn't attacked SS leads me to believe that not all of the Espadas are Vasto Lordes.

Krillos
October 24, 2006, 01:08 PM
It was actually mentioned by Hitsun when he was discussing the different levels of Menos with Ichigo. End of vol 22 in the tanko, ch 197. He said that the Vasto Lorde class's fighting abilities were above that of a captain level. And he also said that at that point, if Aizen had 10 or more of those Vasto Lorde's under his command, it would be the end of SS. Aizen should also know that. So the fact that he hasn't attacked SS leads me to believe that not all of the Espadas are Vasto Lordes.


I agree with you there! And I also hope that we'll get see a real Vasto Lorde-Arrancar pretty soon, maybe in the Rescue-Orihime arc.

nick572
October 24, 2006, 08:59 PM
I hope we see atleast a hint of a Vasto Lorde soon.
It would spice up the story I'm sure.

But I realy think that Ichigo, after being in Hm for a while,
is going to ask some hollow about the one insde of him,
in order to get stonger, and that hollow in HM is going to "look into" Ichigo
and tell him that he has a Vasto Lorde or maybe
something stronger than that inside of him. :)

WinterLion
October 24, 2006, 10:59 PM
I firmly believe we've seen a Vasto Lorde, Ulq. We just haven't seen him in action yet. And I'm sure some at least a few of the Espadas we've seen are Vasto Lordes. They look too human to be otherwise, and I personally believe Grimm is one too, but not Yami. But I do wish Kubo would clear that up for us soon.

sharinganLS
October 25, 2006, 09:57 AM
I have a question wat is Yammi? is he a adjucas or a gillian?

Ichigo fought him in Bankai and he cut of his arm. But when bankai ichigo (including hollow mask) fought Grimmjow (who had a missing arm) ichigo got owned.
Wat does this mean?
we can now see that grimjow and yammi are at complelty different levels (also know that Grimmjow and Ulq are also at completely different levels).
1) So if Yammi is a gillian then Grimmjow must be an adjucas and Ulq must be a VastoLorde
2) But why would a gillian be in the Espada, hence Yammi has to be an adjucas; hence Grimmjow is a Vastorode and the difference between Grimmjow and Ulq could be like the difference between ichimaru and hitsugaya (though both are captians their levels are different)

Cyven
October 25, 2006, 06:44 PM
Ichigo bankai VS Yammi = Ichigo would most likely win. (assuming the dismemberment wasn't pure luck)
Ichigo bankai VS Grimmjaw = Ichigo gets his ass kicked


Ichigo bankai + mask VS Grimmjaw sans 1 arm = Grimmjaw gets owned (remember: Ichigo lost because he couldn't keep his mask on for more than 11 seconds, the power increase his mask gives is enormous, but also straining on him. Anyone can tell that a worn out Ichigo bankai has little chance against a wounded Grimmjaw.

In conclusion, the difference between Yammi and Grimmjaw is substantial, but it doesn't put Grimmjaw in Ulquiorra's league just yet...

Urazz
October 26, 2006, 07:07 AM
I have a question wat is Yammi? is he a adjucas or a gillian?

Ichigo fought him in Bankai and he cut of his arm. But when bankai ichigo (including hollow mask) fought Grimmjow (who had a missing arm) ichigo got owned.
Wat does this mean?
we can now see that grimjow and yammi are at complelty different levels (also know that Grimmjow and Ulq are also at completely different levels).
1) So if Yammi is a gillian then Grimmjow must be an adjucas and Ulq must be a VastoLorde
2) But why would a gillian be in the Espada, hence Yammi has to be an adjucas; hence Grimmjow is a Vastorode and the difference between Grimmjow and Ulq could be like the difference between ichimaru and hitsugaya (though both are captians their levels are different)

Gillians can be in the espada. You haven't given any reason why they can't be. I figured the arrancar in the espada were the ones that were made from Aizen learning more about how to control the hougyoku and becoming more capable in making a more powerful arrancar.

If anything Yammi being a Gillian does make sense as adjucas are said to be equal to a captain level shinigami so an adjucas would be more powerful than a captain as an arrancar. It would probably make number 6 and lower the most likely adjucas as Luppi was capable of beating Hitsugaya and the other vice captains (The only reason why he lost is cause he got sloppy and didn't make sure Hitsugaya was down.).

sharinganLS
October 26, 2006, 02:50 PM
Gillians can be in the espada. You haven't given any reason why they can't be. I figured the arrancar in the espada were the ones that were made from Aizen learning more about how to control the hougyoku and becoming more capable in making a more powerful arrancar.

If anything Yammi being a Gillian does make sense as adjucas are said to be equal to a captain level shinigami so an adjucas would be more powerful than a captain as an arrancar. It would probably make number 6 and lower the most likely adjucas as Luppi was capable of beating Hitsugaya and the other vice captains (The only reason why he lost is cause he got sloppy and didn't make sure Hitsugaya was down.).

I dont think a gillian would end up in Aizen's espada. Aizen is more interested in having Vasto Lordes and adjucas in his espada.
As for giving example of arrancar-Gillans;well there was grandfisher when he fought Ichigo's dad and the five arrancar's that came to earth under Grimmjow (the ones that faced hitsugaya, rukia, ranji, ikkaku, Matsumoto).

poopoomaru
October 30, 2006, 07:02 PM
Ok I actually do think that a gillian could be in the espada , and heres why , from what we have seen the all gillan are not stupid , #11 seemed to be pretty smart , and the rest appeared about as smart as ordinary shinigami. Now with intelligence out of the way we come to raw power , obviously a gillan is weaker then a adjuhha and vasto lorde stronger then them, and so it would be very safe to assume their arrancar counter parts would fall along those same lines, however this doesnt take into account the fact that the powers they gain from their special zanpakuto may be very deadly , or in the nature that even if the opponent is stronger then them , they would still have an edge. Take for example the 5th seat guy from the 11th squad , he was blatantly trumped by the vice-captain guy from Tousens squad , however because of the nature of his power he was still able to beat him. It can then be safe to assume that this could just as well with the Arrancar.

However I would like to say if an gillian was in the espada they would be very low , regardless of the nature of their power. And of course I only think it is POSSIBLE we have seen no evidence to actually conclude their are though.

WinterLion
October 30, 2006, 11:29 PM
I personally don't believe that there are any gillians in the Espada. And here's my reason: Going back to that same chapter I mentioned earlier where Hitsun is explaining to Ichigo about the difference between gillians, adjuccas, and vasto lordes, he says very specifically that: "Their (gillians) main characteristics are that they are many in number and they all look the same." That means that all the gillians are as large as the Ichigo fought before the SS arc. None of the Espadas are that large. At first I thought that Ranuganga (the one Rukia froze), might have been an gillian turned arrancar because he's the only one that was as big as a gillian. But I went back and checked and that's also not possible, because he wasn't an arrancar. He still had his full mask, which means he couldn't be an gillian either (looks nothing like the gillian Ichigo faced). So I think most of the arrancar we've seen are adjuccas with a few vasto lordes thrown in.

ttxdragon
October 31, 2006, 12:11 AM
I personally don't believe that there are any gillians in the Espada. And here's my reason: Going back to that same chapter I mentioned earlier where Hitsun is explaining to Ichigo about the difference between gillians, adjuccas, and vasto lordes, he says very specifically that: "Their (gillians) main characteristics are that they are many in number and they all look the same." That means that all the gillians are as large as the Ichigo fought before the SS arc. None of the Espadas are that large. At first I thought that Ranuganga (the one Rukia froze), might have been an gillian turned arrancar because he's the only one that was as big as a gillian. But I went back and checked and that's also not possible, because he wasn't an arrancar. He still had his full mask, which means he couldn't be an gillian either (looks nothing like the gillian Ichigo faced). So I think most of the arrancar we've seen are adjuccas with a few vasto lordes thrown in.

slight thing i would like to say:
in chap242 there is said "only vast lords are guaranteed human formed bodys"... but that doesnt mean that a gillian couldnt get a human form... "the chance they take on human form is directly proportional to their intellect", is what ishida gt from urahara... the height of the hollow doesnt determine the height of the arrancar... i'd more or less say that the height and stuff are determined by the earlier humans looks to some degree. but thats speculation too....

WinterLion
October 31, 2006, 12:22 AM
slight thing i would like to say:
in one chap there is said "only vast lords are guaranteed human formed bodys"... but that doesnt mean that a gillian couldnt get a human form... "the chance they take on human form is directly proportional to their intellect", is what ishida gt from urahara... the height of the hollow doesnt determine the height of the arrancar... i'd more or less say that the height and stuff are determined by the earlier humans looks to some degree. but thats speculation too....

While that may be true for regular hollows and the other 2 classes of menos grandes, it isn't for the gillians. The explanation given by hitsun was that "all gillians look the same" and that includes shape and size. And granted we haven't seen the before and after of and hollow turned arrancar by the Hougyoku, but we've seen the before and after of Grandfisher who became an arrancar. In that case we could still see from the form that he was Grandfisher, but I've yet to see any arrancar that remotely resembles a gillian.

And the other thing is we may be getting ahead of ourselves here... Not all of Aizen's arrancar has to be classed as a menos grande. Some of his arrancars are probably just a regular hollow that underwent "treatment" from the Hougyoku.

ttxdragon
October 31, 2006, 01:20 AM
but we've seen the before and after of Grandfisher who became an arrancar. In that case we could still see from the form that he was Grandfisher, but I've yet to see any arrancar that remotely resembles a gillian.
as stated, the intellect of the hollow plays a leading role int he conversionprocess...
and you musnt forget, that if grand fisher was treated by the hougyouku, he underwent 2 arrancar-transformations. first to see directly after the 06/17-arcand the second by the hougyouku. that should influence the outcome greatly too.

and yeah, we may be getting ahead of ourselves here...
and as we dont know what nell/neru was earlier that may give us some clues later on too...

poopoomaru
October 31, 2006, 03:40 AM
While that may be true for regular hollows and the other 2 classes of menos grandes, it isn't for the gillians. The explanation given by hitsun was that "all gillians look the same" and that includes shape and size. And granted we haven't seen the before and after of and hollow turned arrancar by the Hougyoku, but we've seen the before and after of Grandfisher who became an arrancar. In that case we could still see from the form that he was Grandfisher, but I've yet to see any arrancar that remotely resembles a gillian.

And the other thing is we may be getting ahead of ourselves here... Not all of Aizen's arrancar has to be classed as a menos grande. Some of his arrancars are probably just a regular hollow that underwent "treatment" from the Hougyoku.


One thing you are forgetting is that Aizen specifically states that all the Arrancar that Grimmjaw took with him are just Gillian , and if we flash back we can see that the El toro guys looks very normal , and he is an gillian turned arrancar , same with # 11.

You are right though Winterlion in that we have not seen the transformation process of hollow to Arrancar , but we have confirmed that gillians do not retain there there gigantic bulk and long nosed ness after they are turned into Arrancar , from what we have learned from Ishida is that while Vasto Lorde guranteed a human form after they turn Arrancar , Gillians and Adhhjua ( I can never spell them right :p ) do still have the chance to become human shaped , and we have seen proof of that in the very human shaped gillian arrancar that Grimmjaw brought back.


PS = I wish the name of this thread hadnt changed because really I like the idea of talking about VAsto Lorde qualites more so then just talking about the who's hollow classes of the espada. >_<

dedal_x
October 31, 2006, 11:02 AM
One thing you are forgetting is that Aizen specifically states that all the Arrancar that Grimmjaw took with him are just Gillian , and if we flash back we can see that the El toro guys looks very normal , and he is an gillian turned arrancar , same with # 11.

You are right though Winterlion in that we have not seen the transformation process of hollow to Arrancar , but we have confirmed that gillians do not retain there there gigantic bulk and long nosed ness after they are turned into Arrancar , from what we have learned from Ishida is that while Vasto Lorde guranteed a human form after they turn Arrancar , Gillians and Adhhjua ( I can never spell them right :p ) do still have the chance to become human shaped , and we have seen proof of that in the very human shaped gillian arrancar that Grimmjaw brought back.

At last, someone reasonable!

You can't say that Gillan Arrankar were looking less human-like then those in Espada.
Ishida says that the lever of a Hollow will determine the degree of a human-like look on transformation. And VastLord will look PERFECTLY human. Okay, so it means that Gillain Arrankar do not look perfectly human? Well, they did look it to me, but if it stated so - then it is like that.

So, what is this "perfectness" in human-likeliness? Actually, to me, all Arrankar we have seen looked perfectly human, except ... well it's obvious - their masks and holes!

So, I hereby state my opinion - we have never seen a Vast Lord-based Arrankar, because it mus have NO mask and hole(hole is optional, actually, I think).

As for Espada. IMHO, most of them are Adjuucars, though there may be some Gillan(two or three). No, not Yammi, more probably it's the guy with 6 eyes.

And yes. If there are Gillans in Espada, then numbers turn out pretty interesting, and I suppose we will see not more then a ONE VastLord Arrankar through the whole series.

Urazz
October 31, 2006, 06:23 PM
No one of the espada is a vastrorode...but i wish Grimmjaw was one of them cause he is one of my favorite villains!!!But i consider ichigo's hollow to be a vastrorode 4 sure!!!

I agree, Ichigo has a freakishly strong reiatsu and I think the type of hollow he would turn into would be a vasto lorde level hollow.

I think if Aizen has any vasto lorde under his command, it would be be the number 1 espada, who looks to be Ulquiorra right now. Since there are so few of them I doubt that Aizen has more than one on his side.

sharinganLS
November 01, 2006, 11:54 AM
I agree, Ichigo has a freakishly strong reiatsu and I think the type of hollow he would turn into would be a vasto lorde level hollow.

I think if Aizen has any vasto lorde under his command, it would be be the number 1 espada, who looks to be Ulquiorra right now. Since there are so few of them I doubt that Aizen has more than one on his side.
Im sure Aizen has more than one Vasto Lorde in the espada. Probably 2 or 3 (definetly not only 1).

WinterLion
November 01, 2006, 01:40 PM
One thing you are forgetting is that Aizen specifically states that all the Arrancar that Grimmjaw took with him are just Gillian , and if we flash back we can see that the El toro guys looks very normal , and he is an gillian turned arrancar , same with # 11.

You are right though Winterlion in that we have not seen the transformation process of hollow to Arrancar , but we have confirmed that gillians do not retain there there gigantic bulk and long nosed ness after they are turned into Arrancar , from what we have learned from Ishida is that while Vasto Lorde guranteed a human form after they turn Arrancar , Gillians and Adhhjua ( I can never spell them right :p ) do still have the chance to become human shaped , and we have seen proof of that in the very human shaped gillian arrancar that Grimmjaw brought back.


PS = I wish the name of this thread hadnt changed because really I like the idea of talking about VAsto Lorde qualites more so then just talking about the who's hollow classes of the espada. >_<

Hmm... I'm only working off the tankos, and that part hasn't come out yet. I need to go find the raw and look that up. :p

Also I've modified the thread name again just slightly. I think it's best if we leave the thread as one where we can discuss all classes of menos grandes because it's so hard to discuss only Vasto Lordes, and the topic will digress.

sharinganLS
November 01, 2006, 03:51 PM
Heres the image and it prove that they were only gillians (excluding grimmjow).

esdawg
November 01, 2006, 05:15 PM
I don't remember reading anywhere that Adjuucas were equal to captains. It only mentioned that their power, intellect and speed was significantly greater than a Gillian. Hitsugaya said that Gillians were a breeze for captains. That being said Adjuucas probably are in between VC and Captain level Shinigami.

It does specifically mention that the Arrancar brought to the real world were only Gillian. From the explanation of the Arrancar Zanpakuto it seems like their true forms (larger more gillian like forms) are revealed. As for appearing to be human the way I take it from the translation is this.
Vastoroode - 100% said only they are guarenteed human forms
Adjuucas and Gillians - 50-75 % mentioned their chances of having a human form are higher, but still not 100%. This means non Menos level Hollows are capable of taking on a human form as Arrancar. From recent chapters people like Nell and servant Arrancar it seems like he did hybridize lower level hollows to take care of chores and menial tasks.

poopoomaru
November 01, 2006, 07:30 PM
Well Hitsugaya was a little skectchy when he mentions menos grande power , the exact words I remember were that Captains could take a gillian without even breaking a sweat , that adjuucas are equal to vice-captain ( equal to , could be challenged or defeated by a vice-captain) , and Vasto Lorde are many times stronger then captain class. While we know that Adjuucas are stronger then Gillian , Gillian arent referenced to be as strong or stronger then anything.

sharinganLS
November 03, 2006, 02:10 PM
Well Hitsugaya was a little skectchy when he mentions menos grande power , the exact words I remember were that Captains could take a gillian without even breaking a sweat , that adjuucas are equal to vice-captain ( equal to , could be challenged or defeated by a vice-captain) , and Vasto Lorde are many times stronger then captain class. While we know that Adjuucas are stronger then Gillian , Gillian are referenced to be as strong or stronger then anything.
Yes this makes sence, but we really need more information and depth abt their power level. Kubo must define or show us a way to differenciate an Adjucas from a vasto Lorde.

WinterLion
November 03, 2006, 08:15 PM
Heres the image and it prove that they were only gillians (excluding grimmjow).



Thanks for that. I already looked it up in the raw though. I prefer working off of the raws since sometimes the transes aren't always accurate.

And you were right. Aizen did say they were gillians. Which means the Hougyoku greatly changes not just their appearance but their intelligence as well.




Well Hitsugaya was a little skectchy when he mentions menos grande power , the exact words I remember were that Captains could take a gillian without even breaking a sweat , that adjuucas are equal to vice-captain ( equal to , could be challenged or defeated by a vice-captain) , and Vasto Lorde are many times stronger then captain class. While we know that Adjuucas are stronger then Gillian , Gillian arent referenced to be as strong or stronger then anything.

Actually Hitsun went into a little more detail than that. I'll trans the section he's talking about menos grandes...

There's three additional level classifications within the menos class. The first is a "gillian." The lowest level within the menos, and when compared to humans, they would be just a common soldier. They're numerous in number and the fact that they all look the same is their trait. In Soul Society they're the ones that commonly appear in text books as the "menos grande." [...] These are extremely large, but their movements are low, and their intelligence about the same as an animal. For a captain class (shinigami) it wouldn't be much of a problem to defeat these. The problem is from the next one.
The second is "Adjucas." Somewhat smaller than a "gillian" and few in number, but their intelligence is high and their battle ability is several times that of a "gillian." They serve to organize the the numerous "gillians."
And the third is "vasto lorde." They highest class of menos. Their size is very small compared to a hollow and about the same as a human. Their numbers are very few, and is said that there's only a few of then in all of Hueco Mundo. To be blunt, this "vasto lorde" class's battle ability is above that of a captain class! And the power these menoses will gain by turning into an arrancar is unknown, but... With 3 captain classes deserting and those gone straight to lead the menoses, we can say this much... If at this point, there's 10 or more "vasto lorde" class under Aizen's command, it would be the end of Soul Society.

The [...] is because I didn't bother to trans the bit of convo between Hitsun and Ichigo since it didn't really concern the actual explanation of the menos classes.

That said, yes, he is a bit sketchy on the explanation of exactly how strong an adjucas is, but I think it can safely be said that they're below that of a captain class shinigami. And as a note "captain class" means vice captain or captain in Bleach. But a vasto lorde would be above a captain in power, because Hitsun says 10 or more. 10 is the number of captains left in SS after Aizen and gang deserted.

And that's just regular menoses... and we know that the ones that Hitsun and co defeated were only gillians turned arrancar. That shows that the Hougyoku not only increases they're power but their intelligence as well. From the fact that Shaoron (the arrancar that fought Hitsun), was able to analyze Hitsun's bankai and his limitations, I'd say that Shaoron's intelligence was well above that of an animal.

poopoomaru
November 03, 2006, 08:51 PM
Thanks for that. I already looked it up in the raw though. I prefer working off of the raws since sometimes the transes aren't always accurate.

And you were right. Aizen did say they were gillians. Which means the Hougyoku greatly changes not just their appearance but their intelligence as well.

Actually Hitsun went into a little more detail than that. I'll trans the section he's talking about menos grandes...

There's three additional level classifications within the menos class. The first is a "gillian." The lowest level within the menos, and when compared to humans, they would be just a common soldier. They're numerous in number and the fact that they all look the same is their trait. In Soul Society they're the ones that commonly appear in text books as the "menos grande." [...] These are extremely large, but their movements are low, and their intelligence about the same as an animal. For a captain class (shinigami) it wouldn't be much of a problem to defeat these. The problem is from the next one.
The second is "Adjucas." Somewhat smaller than a "gillian" and few in number, but their intelligence is high and their battle ability is several times that of a "gillian." They serve to organize the the numerous "gillians."
And the third is "vasto lorde." They highest class of menos. Their size is very small compared to a hollow and about the same as a human. Their numbers are very few, and is said that there's only a few of then in all of Hueco Mundo. To be blunt, this "vasto lorde" class's battle ability is above that of a captain class! And the power these menoses will gain by turning into an arrancar is unknown, but... With 3 captain classes deserting and those gone straight to lead the menoses, we can say this much... If at this point, there's 10 or more "vasto lorde" class under Aizen's command, it would be the end of Soul Society.

The [...] is because I didn't bother to trans the bit of convo between Hitsun and Ichigo since it didn't really concern the actual explanation of the menos classes.

That said, yes, he is a bit sketchy on the explanation of exactly how strong an adjucas is, but I think it can safely be said that they're below that of a captain class shinigami. And as a note "captain class" means vice captain or captain in Bleach. But a vasto lorde would be above a captain in power, because Hitsun says 10 or more. 10 is the number of captains left in SS after Aizen and gang deserted.

And that's just regular menoses... and we know that the ones that Hitsun and co defeated were only gillians turned arrancar. That shows that the Hougyoku not only increases they're power but their intelligence as well. From the fact that Shaoron (the arrancar that fought Hitsun), was able to analyze Hitsun's bankai and his limitations, I'd say that Shaoron's intelligence was well above that of an animal.



Well I was actually talking about the sketchy ness of the Gillian not the adjuuca's. And were does it say anywhere that "captain class" includes vice-captains? If it says somewhere specifically and I just looked over it then if you just tell me where it is and I will say sorry but I dont remember it ever saying that when they talked about "captain class" that you were talking about Vice-captains too.

Here are the pages I am looking at . .. . http://bleachexile.com/bleach-online/details.php?image_id=4286/
http://bleachexile.com/bleach-online/details.php?image_id=4287
http://bleachexile.com/bleach-online/details.php?image_id=4288

WinterLion
November 03, 2006, 10:30 PM
Well I was actually talking about the sketchy ness of the Gillian not the adjuuca's. And were does it say anywhere that "captain class" includes vice-captains? If it says somewhere specifically and I just looked over it then if you just tell me where it is and I will say sorry but I dont remember it ever saying that when they talked about "captain class" that you were talking about Vice-captains too.

Here are the pages I am looking at . .. . http://bleachexile.com/bleach-online/details.php?image_id=4286/
http://bleachexile.com/bleach-online/details.php?image_id=4287
http://bleachexile.com/bleach-online/details.php?image_id=4288

"Captain class" is a term that has been used repeatedly in Bleach, and refers to Capt/VC. It took me a bit to find a specific example, but here's one... Vol 16, ch 138 at the end of the chap... Makimaki (the 11th div guy) says: "That can't be... 4 captain class." He's referring to Komamura (7th Div Captain), Iba (7th Div VC), Tousen, and Hisagi (9th Div VC). It's the scene from where the 4 are hiding, and Kenchan calls them on it. (Right before the Kenchan vs Komamura/Tousen battle). There's a few others, but I'm too lazy to go find it atm. If you want, I'll dig up some other examples later.

But that said, I see several problems with the translation with the scans you've linked. The first one is "wouldn't even break a sweat." That term isn't really correct since that's saying that the gillians are very easy defeated by a captain class shinigami. It should be "wouldn't be much of a problem." Which would mean that while they wouldn't be very difficult to defeat they're not very easily defeated either. (At least from my understanding of English that's what I would think. Please correct me if I'm wrong there). The second one is "...known only to exist deep within Hueco Mundo..." (on vasto lordes, 2nd link). It should really be: "...and is said that there's only a few of them in all of Hueco Mundo." The third link: "[...] I have told you all I know about the menos. Let me just give you my personal prediction. As of right now, including Aizen... if there exists over 10 vastrodes..." No where does Hitsun say that that's all he know, or that what he's saying after that is his personal prediction. Also he doesn't say it's including Aizen. That passage should be translated to: "[...] and those gone straight to lead the menoses, we can say this much... If at this point, there's 10 or more "vasto lorde" class under Aizen's command..."

poopoomaru
November 03, 2006, 11:16 PM
Ahhh well considering I see know that you are correct , MakiMaki did say that , so Vice captains are in included in the term Captain class.

And I am sorry , booboo translations are booboo translations I am afraid. If the information I was using to base my decision was in fact faulty then of course my decision is booboo as well. And yes you are correct the term " wont even break a sweat " means it would be very easy ( a non-english speaker? ).

I suppose until we plunge deeper in Hueco Muendo there is not a whole lot we can go on in regards to the Menos classes. All I think we can know is that Wonderweis is in fact a vasto lorde due to his size. Otherwise the whole how powerful they are argument doesnt really work considering that all the hollows were turned to Arrancar at different times and at different levels of Hougyoku awakening. Until we see some more info I suppose it will be hard to do anything but speculate.

WinterLion
November 04, 2006, 01:33 AM
Ahhh well considering I see know that you are correct , MakiMaki did say that , so Vice captains are in included in the term Captain class.
I think it's been said a few other times, but that's one I was able to find first. :p


And I am sorry , booboo translations are booboo translations I am afraid. If the information I was using to base my decision was in fact faulty then of course my decision is booboo as well. And yes you are correct the term " wont even break a sweat " means it would be very easy ( a non-english speaker? ).
It is sometimes hard to figure it out when there's incorrect transes floating around. And it's not the reader's fault of course. But that's the reason we created a clarification thread for that. If you would ever like clarification on something it's right here in the Bibli. For a quick link click here (http://mangahelpers.com/forum/index.php?topic=9351.0). And yes, I'm a native Japanese speaker, so English is my second language. I'm proficient enough in it to get by without problems most of the time, but sometimes there are euphemism, idioms, sayings etc. that I don't quite understand and I need to check. :p


I suppose until we plunge deeper in Hueco Muendo there is not a whole lot we can go on in regards to the Menos classes. All I think we can know is that Wonderweis is in fact a vasto lorde due to his size. Otherwise the whole how powerful they are argument doesnt really work considering that all the hollows were turned to Arrancar at different times and at different levels of Hougyoku awakening. Until we see some more info I suppose it will be hard to do anything but speculate.

Dissecting Kubo-Sensei's work does take a lot of speculation. And now that I've had it pointed out to me and I realize that gillian class menoses don't look like gillians but rather much more human, (ie Shaoron, Edorado, and the rest minus Grimm). It's hard to say how human the adjucas will look as well. All we know for sure is that Grimm is either an adjucas or vasto lorde. Because of what Aizen said. As for Wonderwyce, it's very hard to tell, because if he was a vasto lorde originally, his power and intelligence should be more than enough to earn him a spot in the Espada rankings. But when we saw all the members of the Espada gathered in the meeting, we didn't see Wonderwyce among them. So until I see more proof of Wonderwyce's powers, I would personally go with the theory that he's not a vasto lorde. But that's just me.

poopoomaru
November 04, 2006, 02:52 AM
Well on Wonderweiss , considering that all the Espada were present at his birth , and the tone of what Tousen said , Wonderweiss seems to be a special case. I doubt all the espada are called in to witness the birth of every single arrancar "birth". Considering what we heard from Aizen talking to Gin , the Arrancar that come from Vasto Lorde are important to him, also considering he said something to the effect of "until we find the vasto lorde " , it seems likely that if there are any Vasto lorde at all within the ranks of his espada then there might only be 1 or 2 , at the most maybe 3.

One thing I can say is Wonderweiss is special somehow. I doubt Tousen is the type of man who would just have a kid following him wherever he goes.

If you wanted to get real techinical then you might think that the psyche of a vasto lorde would be a great deal different from that of a Gillian or Adjuuca. Consider that Menos are a collection of many different hollows together , the most natural and logical of that would be Gillian , lots of Hollows all piled together makes a big mass of a supernatural being. All the different intelligences being mashed together into simple primal urges , emotions , wants needs, making an animalistic kind of creature. Vasto Lorde somehow are different. Somehow all the many hollows that came together to form a small human shaped being , all the minds coming together flawlessy and seemlessy to form a single conscious-ness. Considering that the mind of a Vasto Lorde might be very different from that of an ordinary person.

Another theory could be that a Vasto Lorde , instead of being a mass of many hollows , they are simply one person , one hollow. A hollow born from a human with immense spiritual power. Look at Ichigo , when he was becoming hollowfied he did not become some big grotesque monster he was relatively human shaped. And he had all the power of a menos grande. It would seem natural that if great spiritual power led to becoming a Vasto Lorde that a SHinigami , who power would naturally be cultivated and encouraged to grow would then be the perfect canidate to become a Vasto Lorde. But once again this is more of a single thought rather then a theory.

sharinganLS
November 06, 2006, 09:58 AM
Thats a very interesting point you made abt the number of vasto lordes and how important they are to Aizen. One tghings for sure Aizen current has more than one vastolorde in his espada.
These vastolordes seem to powerful dont you? i mean ikaku had to go bankai to face a gillian arrancar (the same with hitsugaya) and they were only gillians wat would they have you do to defeat a vastolorde arrancar; i wonder if the caption class will all get come kind of spiritual upgrade or something to face these arrancars.

WinterLion
November 06, 2006, 02:27 PM
Well on Wonderweiss , considering that all the Espada were present at his birth , and the tone of what Tousen said , Wonderweiss seems to be a special case. I doubt all the espada are called in to witness the birth of every single arrancar "birth". Considering what we heard from Aizen talking to Gin , the Arrancar that come from Vasto Lorde are important to him, also considering he said something to the effect of "until we find the vasto lorde " , it seems likely that if there are any Vasto lorde at all within the ranks of his espada then there might only be 1 or 2 , at the most maybe 3.

One thing I can say is Wonderweiss is special somehow. I doubt Tousen is the type of man who would just have a kid following him wherever he goes.
I'm not disagreeing with you on the fact that Wonderwyce is special... he has to be to from what we've seen of how the others are treating him... But could it be because he's the newest arrancar and therefore is the one of the stronger ones because he'd has had the Hougyoku used on him at its most awakened state thus far? Or is it possible that he's an experiment? Maybe the Hougyoku is so powerful that the more it's awakened, the more it has an effect on the psyche? Urahara sealed the Hougyoku because it was "too dangerous." And if the result of the Hougyoku was only increased power, I doubt he would have sealed it.

If you wanted to get real techinical then you might think that the psyche of a vasto lorde would be a great deal different from that of a Gillian or Adjuuca. Consider that Menos are a collection of many different hollows together , the most natural and logical of that would be Gillian , lots of Hollows all piled together makes a big mass of a supernatural being. All the different intelligences being mashed together into simple primal urges , emotions , wants needs, making an animalistic kind of creature. Vasto Lorde somehow are different. Somehow all the many hollows that came together to form a small human shaped being , all the minds coming together flawlessy and seemlessy to form a single conscious-ness. Considering that the mind of a Vasto Lorde might be very different from that of an ordinary person.

Another theory could be that a Vasto Lorde , instead of being a mass of many hollows , they are simply one person , one hollow. A hollow born from a human with immense spiritual power. Look at Ichigo , when he was becoming hollowfied he did not become some big grotesque monster he was relatively human shaped. And he had all the power of a menos grande. It would seem natural that if great spiritual power led to becoming a Vasto Lorde that a SHinigami , who power would naturally be cultivated and encouraged to grow would then be the perfect canidate to become a Vasto Lorde. But once again this is more of a single thought rather then a theory.

While those two theories are very interesting and I'm not refuting their possibility... the problem with your use of Ichigo as an example is that Ichigo never became a true hollow. And he was fighting the effect of becoming a hollow, so the order in which the hollow form appeared was completely random. And when he appeared out of the hole, he was more Visored than hollow.




Thats a very interesting point you made abt the number of vasto lordes and how important they are to Aizen. One tghings for sure Aizen current has more than one vastolorde in his espada.
Not agreeing or disagreeing with you here, but why do you think Aizen has more than 1 vasto lorde?

These vastolordes seem to powerful dont you? i mean ikaku had to go bankai to face a gillian arrancar (the same with hitsugaya) and they were only gillians wat would they have you do to defeat a vastolorde arrancar; i wonder if the caption class will all get come kind of spiritual upgrade or something to face these arrancars.

Yes, the vasto lordes must be very powerful... but also, Rangiku defeated her opponent without a bankai. Plus, when they (Renji, Hitsun and Rangiku) were being beaten by the arrancars, they had their reiryoku limited to 20% of normal. And by the time their limiter was removed, Renji and Histun were already in bankai mode, so it's hard to say if Hitsun really needed the bankai to defeat the arrancar, or just have the limiter removed. But you're right on Ikkaku, because he's a 3rd seat, he didn't have the limiter and he really did need to go bankai to defeat Edorado. And Hitsun did say that vasto lordes are already stronger than a captain level shinigami... which means that an arrancar vasto lorde is even stronger than that. Scary thought... :p

sharinganLS
November 07, 2006, 09:17 AM
i said more than one arrancar cause i dont remember which chapter excatly but it was the chapter where Aizen and gin were having a conversation. Aizen told gin that theres nothing to worry cause they only lost a bunch of gillian (arrancar) and he also told him something abt gathering (assemble) the vasto Lordes. After this conversation it is clear that Aizen now has more than one VastoLorde in his espada.

mugen
February 02, 2007, 04:50 PM
don't these guys really gain nothing from being turned into an arrancar?
of course beside their appearance...
i mean they don't use kidou and they don't use zanpaktous......
wtf??
i mean so far they have shown nothing that a shinigami has????
Kubo really messed up...
i mean if they have really not gained nothing from being turned into an arrancar...
why have they been beating the shinigami up?????

Fortisdiablos
February 02, 2007, 06:30 PM
The all have zanpakutou, and as for kidou, we don't know if they can or can't use it. Besides, Ichigo is a shinigami and he can't use kidou.

mugen
February 02, 2007, 07:47 PM
The all have zanpakutou, and as for kidou, we don't know if they can or can't use it. Besides, Ichigo is a shinigami and he can't use kidou.

but hollow zanpaktous are not really zanpaktous cuz they just simply carry the hollows true form..
unlike zanpaktous which are an extension of a shinigamis power

ttxdragon
February 02, 2007, 08:12 PM
but hollow zanpaktous are not really zanpaktous cuz they just simply carry the hollows true form..
unlike zanpaktous which are an extension of a shinigamis power

they carry not the "true form" but an "enhanced form"... thus the arrancar gain a load of power and a form that lets them utilize individual powers (just like zanpakutous do) but those forms are connected to the body... that's the only big difference...
and please remember we haven't seen an vasto lorde arrancar release his zanpakutou. we may be in for a "surprise" or "closer to shinigami" form ^^

mugen
February 02, 2007, 08:21 PM
they carry not the "true form" but an "enhanced form"... thus the arrancar gain a load of power and a form that lets them utilize individual powers (just like zanpakutous do) but those forms are connected to the body... that's the only big difference...
and please remember we haven't seen an vasto lorde arrancar release his zanpakutou. we may be in for a "surprise" or "closer to shinigami" form ^^


uuumm no...
look back to chapter 258.
it is not an enhanced form but they true form :p
http://img105.imageshack.us/img105/3903/m7bleachch25811vv0.th.png (http://img105.imageshack.us/my.php?image=m7bleachch25811vv0.png)

Fortisdiablos
February 02, 2007, 08:32 PM
uuumm no...
look back to chapter 258.
it is not an enhanced form but they true form :p
http://img105.imageshack.us/img105/3903/m7bleachch25811vv0.th.png (http://img105.imageshack.us/my.php?image=m7bleachch25811vv0.png)



I don't like this whole "true form" bit, becuase then you could say their true form is their original hollow form before they became arrancars. What she became in that page was certainly not what she looked like as a normal hollow.

mugen
February 02, 2007, 08:34 PM
well that what resurrección is :noworry
and if you do not believe me
read chapter 258 :noworry

ttxdragon
February 02, 2007, 09:15 PM
what you are reffering to is her "true" arrancar form, which is in no way her original and true form. neither would it most likely be her real "true" form as she is like dorudoni a "pre-arrancar" that wasn't done using the hougyouku method.

read the dorudoni fight for that again, please.

thus, there are three things that could be called "true form" for an arrancar...
#1 -- the original hollow, without any experimentating
#2 -- the pre-arrancar-hollow released form, with forced non-hougyouku transformation
#3 -- the release or even bankai of the real arrancar, the ones who got a forced transformation by the hougyouku. these we haven't seen and can't judge yet.

i would like to reserve the term "true form" for the REAL arrancars or make it the original hollow form.
the release of the #2 case is thus an "enhanced form" of the pre-arrancar, which can be re-suppressed into the more human form...

please bear in mind that we still have no REAL/TRUE arrancar seen releasing their zanpakutou. thus we haven't seen what the hougyouku transformation brings for them....

one thing we know:
hollows gain loads of power, which they can access on release.

for vaizards:
doesn't the same thing apply? they just gain loads of powers which they can gain by their kind of "release" with the mask...

---------------------------------------

mugen, for the page you posted... the translation may just sound unclear.
it's kinda hard to explain without giving the chance to let it misinterpreted...
lets just go like this:
transformation gives new powers and form, which gets sealed away into zanpakutou to make it possible to move easier without being detected or edging against each and every wall there is... thus "resurreccion" is the "enhanced form".

same does a shinigamis zanpakutou for the first point, it seals away the power. the power of the user and zanpakutou is sealed away and needs to be attained from the beginning. that is the main difference. (and shinigami don't get absurdly huge bodies, which lies in the nature of the souls shinigami-attribute.)

mugen
February 02, 2007, 09:19 PM
look when they, arrancar release their zanpaktous
their regain their hollow powers they once had before they were turned into arrancar...
thus which why their releases are called resurrección ..
which in spanish means resurrection
oh and we have seen a perfect "espada" release...
Luppi :notrust

ttxdragon
February 02, 2007, 09:42 PM
seeing the difference in power between grimmjow and luppi i must question if luppi isn't a "remainder" of the test-objects, which just got set back to her former place until grimmjow regained his arm, which aizen most likely planned... And Luppi seems by no means to be a Vasto Lorde, which is another part which is to be accounted together with the hougyouku still being unstable and as aizen said "weakened"


and i did explain my opinion on the resurreccion properly in my post before.
take the case of grand fisher and compare it to my explanation....
i think it is a misunderstanding based on the wording... the release lets her "get back to the state she aquired through the transformation ." if you need the "get back/resurrect power" in there...

mugen
February 02, 2007, 09:46 PM
seeing the difference in power between grimmjow and luppi i must question if luppi isn't a "remainder" of the test-objects, which just got set back to her former place until grimmjow regained his arm, which aizen most likely planned... And Luppi seems by no means to be a Vasto Lorde, which is another part which is to be accounted together with the hougyouku still being unstable and as aizen said "weakened"


i disagree Luppi was not vastro but he wasn't like the ex-sword so therefore he was created from the orb :noworry
anyways grand fisher never released his zanpaktou and arrancar releases are them regaining their hollow powers thus the reason it is called resurrección... it's that simple :amuse

Fortisdiablos
February 02, 2007, 09:46 PM
seeing the difference in power between grimmjow and luppi i must question if luppi isn't a "remainder" of the test-objects, which just got set back to her former place until grimmjow regained his arm, which aizen most likely planned... And Luppi seems by no means to be a Vasto Lorde, which is another part which is to be accounted together with the hougyouku still being unstable and as aizen said "weakened"


and i did explain my opinion on the resurreccion properly in my post before.
take the case of grand fisher and compare it to my explanation....
i think it is a misunderstanding based on the wording... the release lets her "get back to the state she aquired through the transformation ." if you need the "get back/resurrect power" in there...


I agree with you on this, assuming I've understood you correctly. I agree that the released form of these Priveron and the Espada are what they were transformed into when they became arrancar (much like a shinigami's release which is a representation of their true ability) and their unreleased form is just them compressing their power (like a shinigami's unreleased sword holds back a shinigami's power). If this is what you're saying, then I totally agree.

ttxdragon
February 02, 2007, 10:08 PM
i disagree Luppi was not vastro but he wasn't like the ex-sword so therefore he was created from the orb :noworry
i wouldn't disregard it that easily, but w/e....



anyways grand fisher never released his zanpaktou

ch187, take a look at the grandfisher that attacks kon at first...
take a look at it at the end of the chapter again, his extra legs and horns should give away that he indeed released.



I agree with you on this, assuming I've understood you correctly. I agree that the released form of these Priveron and the Espada are what they were transformed into when they became arrancar (much like a shinigami's release which is a representation of their true ability) and their unreleased form is just them compressing their power (like a shinigami's unreleased sword holds back a shinigami's power). If this is what you're saying, then I totally agree.

exactly what i want to say :D thanks for putting it in a different expression >.<

mugen
February 02, 2007, 10:15 PM
well if thats what you think anyways
my point from the beginning was that arrancar don't have no shinigami powers :noworry

ttxdragon
February 02, 2007, 10:59 PM
well if thats what you think anyways
my point from the beginning was that arrancar don't have no shinigami powers :noworry

what are shinigami powers then?
if i grasped the meaning of shinigami powers right it's
1. purifying hollows with the zanpakutou
2. Soul burial through the zanpakutou.
which of those two things should an arrancar even bother to try? and why would kubo waste panels for the story to show a "advanced hollow" purifying a hollow, which does in no way make sense to me?

whether they are able to perform those tasks or kidou is totally in the air. although i think they are basically able to perform kidou, but without instruction there is no doing it -- at least if you aren't a genius or spend like hundreds of years on developing your own kidou-attacks...

mugen
February 02, 2007, 11:04 PM
no i mean kidou
i mean vizards do learn cero so why can't hollows learn kidou also
we never even see them use their zanpaktous like zanpaktous
they are just there for show unless they release them which just makes it disappear...
i mean they have no shingami powers :noworry
so were they not better off just being hollows..
it does not explain why they outclass the shinigami :notrust

ttxdragon
February 02, 2007, 11:20 PM
no i mean kidou
i mean vizards do learn cero so why can't hollows learn kidou also
their only source of knowlegde for kidou would be one of the three higher-ups shinigami...
i don't believe aizen even bothers to set up a "kidou-school" for them... unnecessary waste of resources. In his eyes the arrancar are tools that can fight already, why should he teach them if he can just create more powerful ones?



we never even see them use their zanpaktous like zanpaktous
>>>> quote of myself
if i grasped the meaning of shinigami powers right it's
1. purifying hollows with the zanpakutou
2. Soul burial through the zanpakutou.
which of those two things should an arrancar even bother to try? and why would kubo waste panels for the story to show a "advanced hollow" purifying a hollow, which does in no way make sense to me?
end of quote of myself from former post <<<<



they are just there for show unless they release them which just makes it disappear...

I'm pretty sure Chirrucchi used her zanpakutou (that round blade on a strap) against ishida :oh



i mean they have no shingami powers :noworry
so were they not better off just being hollows..
a giant powerboost for free doesn't make the transformation a good deal?



it does not explain why they outclass the shinigami :notrust

a menos already needs a special team with at least a vice captain to be overpowered...
a gillian puts up a real good fight for a captain...
a vasto lorde is at least captain level if not higher...
(that's based on loose memory, but should be about right)
those plus major powerboost... i don't know why they shouldn't outclass captains... :oh

mugen
February 02, 2007, 11:24 PM
cuz i see them using just hollow moves wtf
are they not supposed to be hybrids
they don't even swing their zanpaktous :noworry
only that girl like you said btw
i never said anything about purifying souls :notrust
what shingami power have they used ...
their zanpaktous are just their old hollow selves

glasskatana
February 03, 2007, 12:26 PM
There is a purpose for becoming arrancar. If I remember right, it states in the manga that a captain would not even break a sweat against a gillian (the giant). However, if we look at the gillian arrancar, they are much more powerful.

Gillian Hollow - Captain doesn't even break a sweat
Gillian Arrancar - Captain breaks a sweat, uses a lot of power, and can even get wounded

mugen
February 03, 2007, 12:29 PM
yeah all they gain from the orb is a big boost in their reiatsu
not really a hybrid but yeah.....
that's what i'm trying to say they are still hollows...
they really did not gain nothing except for a big boost and a human form.
so is that a hybrid?

ttxdragon
February 03, 2007, 12:46 PM
they gain:
a new form which they can release to
a human form, which may have some powers of their own (see ulquiorras eye)
new powers
they get stronger

and all because their shinigami-part of the soul gets pulled out a bit...

alekosss_kenpachi
February 03, 2007, 04:28 PM
Why is ""what shinigami powers they gain "" such a big matter..It is the same as Ichigo in his vizard form.He is just GREATly boosted in strenght and speed.Moreover espadas gain zanpaktu abilities as well.I think these boosts are good enough.

mugen
February 03, 2007, 05:42 PM
they gain:
a new form which they can release to
a human form, which may have some powers of their own (see ulquiorras eye)
new powers
they get stronger

and all because their shinigami-part of the soul gets pulled out a bit...

well it's not really a new human form....
cuz all hollows did use to be human...
and it's not really new powers just their powers they once had before they were arrancar
and hollows already have regeneration powers like Ichigo's hollow does...


Why is ""what shinigami powers they gain "" such a big matter..It is the same as Ichigo in his vizard form.He is just GREATly boosted in strenght and speed.Moreover espadas gain zanpaktu abilities as well.I think these boosts are good enough.

cuz they are supposed to be hybrids

ttxdragon
February 03, 2007, 08:01 PM
well it's not really a new human form....
cuz all hollows did use to be human...
ok.... stronger hollows (gillian, adjucas, vasto lorde) are said to be "merged" from many hollows... i don't think all those humans looked the same in their non-hollow time... (and i can't really picture a human that looks like ulquiorra... i don't believe that ulquiorra goes each day into his little bathroom and uses facepaint. nope.)
conclusion: it's an individual new humanoid form that they attain.
how far the 'standard' hollows would resemble their earlier human form is not possible to confirm....



and it's not really new powers just their powers they once had before they were arrancar
take a look at the grand fisher transformation. where is his puppet? and where were his horns in his old hollow self?
that's the case where we can say it for sure that there is a difference in the powers that the pre-arrancar and arrancar wield.



and hollows already have regeneration powers like Ichigo's hollow does...
i want proof that every hollow has regeneration abilities :oh i didn't see any hollow regenerate on it's own besides shirosaki, ulquiorras eye and the hollow that attacked ishida.
yammi needed medical attention, grimmjow was one-armed a looong time until inoue regenerated the arm.


for them not using their zanpakutou as weapon usually:
why should they utilize a fighting style they don't like if they can utilze a stronger fighting style that they like better?

mugen
February 03, 2007, 09:38 PM
well about the regeneration powers only high class hollows can do it :noworry
also hollows release is called resurrección which means resurrection.
hhm.. does that clear things up..

ttxdragon
February 03, 2007, 09:50 PM
well about the regeneration powers only high class hollows can do it :noworry

meaning the one that fought against ryuuken and ishida is higher class then grimmjow?
then why wasn't that one in human form? (answer: it was a non-hougyouku low-class menos or maybe not even menos that was send to earth)



also hollows release is called resurrección which means resurrection.
ok, the following bases on my own theory of the bleach world which here again would fit perfectly:
while in the human form the shinigami part is dominant, when they release into "resurreccion" the hollowpart gets dominant again, therefore "revived". the hollowpart though doesn't have full dominance and the form that got acquired through the process of "shinigamization" of the hollow is into what it releases... it is still a hybrid form, but gets just a larger base of hollow-powers (that was sealed away in the zanpakutou). i hope it was understandable.



seems like i'm gonna post that full theory soon >.> hoped i got some days to bring it up to date first >.<

mugen
February 03, 2007, 09:54 PM
well about the regeneration part you may are right...
but still ichigo's hollow and ulquiorra seem to be vastro lorde so maybe but still we only see hollows regerate
never have we seen a shinigami do it.. so it's a hollow power .....
but i know i'm right about their releases it's just their old hollow selves..

Fortisdiablos
February 03, 2007, 11:54 PM
well about the regeneration part you may are right...
but still ichigo's hollow and ulquiorra seem to be vastro lorde so maybe but still we only see hollows regerate
never have we seen a shinigami do it.. so it's a hollow power .....
but i know i'm right about their releases it's just their old hollow selves..


How can you claim to know you're right about that? Every released arrancar we've seen still looks human. They have hollow-esque attachments, but they still look human. How can you possibly say that that is their old hollow selves. The form they take when they release is the new and stronger form they get from the hougyoku. When they are unreleased, it's like a shinigami sealing his sword (ie. a shinigami doesn't walk around with a shikai or a bankai at all times).

mugen
February 03, 2007, 11:57 PM
it's called resurrection ...
thus they resurrect their old selves.. yes it might be a bit different from their old selves but it's still the same minus the human form..

Fortisdiablos
February 04, 2007, 12:09 AM
it's called resurrection ...
thus they resurrect their old selves.. yes it might be a bit different from their old selves but it's still the same minus the human form..


But the human form is what makes them different. What you're basically saying is that they are the same except for the thing that makes them different.

And resurrection could be referring to their new arrancar form. Their released form is their natural form, so when they are in unreleased (power conserving) form, they are resurrecting their natural arrancar form by releasing, not their old hollow form.

And resurrection could mean that they are resurrecting their new arrancar form.

mugen
February 04, 2007, 12:14 AM
uum... no :nono
anyways how come arrancar say they are hybrids but don't display shingami skills
i mean vizard use cero? and when they release their zanpaktou's its still the same shinigami one they had.
example does ichigo's bankai change when he goes hollow? :nono
so therefore an arrancars doesn't either

Fortisdiablos
February 04, 2007, 12:23 AM
uum... no :nono
anyways how come arrancar say they are hybrids but don't display shingami skills
i mean vizard use cero? and when they release their zanpaktou's its still the same shinigami one they had.
example does ichigo's bankai change when he goes hollow? :nono
so therefore an arrancars doesn't either


I'm sorry, but your argument makes no sense to me. You can't compare vaizards to arrancars at all. They haven't transformed into anything, they just put on a mask. And even Urahara said that he could use a cero if he saw it enough times. I don't understand how you can blatantly say no to other arguments. Maybe the arrancars don't gain a shinigami's abilities, but they do gain their traits. When a shinigami released his/her sword, they become stronger and unlock more of their power. Same thing with an arrancar, but instead, their bodies are released, and not their swords, because they aren't shinigami, they're arrancars, which are both hollow and shinigami. Shinigami don't have any definitive ability like hollows do with the cero, so I don't see what kind of practical shinigami ability they would gain.

mugen
February 04, 2007, 12:40 AM
my point from the beginning was that Vizard gain hollow abilities like cero and what not..
should not arrancar do the same...
and also all the orb does is really boost their reitsu and give them an "enhanced form"
but really they still battle like hollows ..
understand :noworry
you don't see them using shunpo and what not cuz they already have a hollow move like that..
so they don't need shinigami powers thus what was the point of becoming hybrid?

ttxdragon
February 04, 2007, 01:17 AM
my point from the beginning was that Vizard gain hollow abilities like cero and what not..
should not arrancar do the same...

see my posts before:


if i grasped the meaning of shinigami powers right it's
1. purifying hollows with the zanpakutou
2. Soul burial through the zanpakutou.
which of those two things should an arrancar even bother to try? and why would kubo waste panels for the story to show a "advanced hollow" purifying a hollow, which does in no way make sense to me?


on to the next part:


and also all the orb does is really boost their reitsu and give them an "enhanced form"

making your list a bit more complete:


a new form which they can release to
a human form, which may have some powers of their own (see ulquiorras eye)
new powers
they get stronger



let's move on:


but really they still battle like hollows ..

let's see... this one:


for them not using their zanpakutou as weapon usually:
why should they utilize a fighting style they don't like if they can utilze a stronger fighting style that they like better?

ah, and you seem to read naruto right?
to put a further thing to this:
Do you see Kurenai as Genjutsu specialist use Ninjutsu as weapon just because she's able to do it when she is more effetive with using genjutsu? Usually one fights with what they can do best and not with what they are able to do but not to the fullest of its ability... normal tactics o.O


but let's move on:

you don't see them using shunpo and what not cuz they already have a hollow move like that..

let's take this and apply it to shinigami techniques other than kidou too:


their only source of knowlegde for kidou would be one of the three higher-ups shinigami...
i don't believe aizen even bothers to set up a "kidou-school" for them... unnecessary waste of resources. In his eyes the arrancar are tools that can fight already, why should he teach them if he can just create more powerful ones?

explanation:
whilst cero seems to be a hollow-innate ability, shunpo and kidou and other techniques shinigami use are all taught by someone to them or created after long training and experimentating.




so they don't need shinigami powers thus what was the point of becoming hybrid?


gonna quote from this post out of lazyness:



and also all the orb does is really boost their reitsu and give them an "enhanced form"

making your list a bit more complete:


a new form which they can release to
a human form, which may have some powers of their own (see ulquiorras eye)
new powers
they get stronger



thanks for your time.

strider123
February 04, 2007, 05:38 AM
my point from the beginning was that Vizard gain hollow abilities like cero and what not..
should not arrancar do the same...
and also all the orb does is really boost their reitsu and give them an "enhanced form"
but really they still battle like hollows ..
understand :noworry
you don't see them using shunpo and what not cuz they already have a hollow move like that..
so they don't need shinigami powers thus what was the point of becoming hybrid?


1st of all, you do not know if Vizards GAIN cero... they might as well have learned it. And also, we do not know that Arrancar can or can not use kidou... just because we haven't seem them use it -yet- doesn't mean that they can not use it... if Shinji wouldn't have used cero we wouldn't have known that he was able too

2nd of all, one might say that Vizards aren't hybrids too, because they do not gain a hole in them and they do not try to eat human souls

Personally I think that each sides gets, more or less, what it lacks so that they can have the best of both worlds ^^

alekosss_kenpachi
February 04, 2007, 09:25 AM
And even Urahara said that he could use a cero if he saw it enough times.
In which chapter did Urahara mention that?I dont remember so i would like to look it up.

mugen
February 04, 2007, 12:00 PM
aww...
i never said that hollows want to purify souls..
never...
anyways not even shingami do that..
only low class shingami and ichigo cuz he's human...
anyways :nana

Fortisdiablos
February 04, 2007, 12:11 PM
In which chapter did Urahara mention that?I dont remember so i would like to look it up.


It was during the chapter when he fought Yammi. I don't recall the number.

ttxdragon
February 04, 2007, 12:19 PM
aww...
i never said that hollows want to purify souls..
never...
anyways not even shingami do that..
only low class shingami and ichigo cuz he's human...

who says they want to purify hollows?! It would be plain dumb. But it is a power they gain with the transformation. a shinigami-power as opposed to cero being a hollow-power, as it is often called. It doesn't bring them any advantage in a fight, but it is a power they gain.

if you talk about theory, take theory-containing posts into consideration and think about them. thank you.

Pollux
February 05, 2007, 07:31 AM
If I remember correctly, Urahara was not talking about Cero but about the Balla (sorry, I don't remember how the name of this technique is spelled) Yammi was firing (although whether it is Cero or Balla is not so important).
The problem is that I read several different translations. In some translations, Uruhara indeed says that if he sees this attack several times, he could learn it too. Yet, in another translation, Urahara says that if he sees enough of this attack, he should be able to counter it (not use it).
I hope I did not make too much errors (unfortunately, I don't have these chapters on the computer I'm using).

delapaz13
February 09, 2007, 03:01 AM
here is what i think:

Vizards-shinigami powers are supplemented by hollow powers.
Arrancar-hollow powers are supplemented by shinigami powers.

gilians-low intelligence,slow and biggest of the menos.(low reiatsu)
adjucchas-medium intelligence, faster than gilians and not as big as gilians but bigger than vasto lordes.(medium reiatsu)
Vasto Lordes-high intelligence,fastest and man-sized.(high reiatsu)

after treatment of hogyouku:

gilians-estimated chance of human characteristics:10-30%*
adjucchas-estimated chance of human characteristics:40-70%*
vasto lordes-estimated chance of human characteristics:80-100%*

*please keep in mind that these are only estimates; it may depend on the hollow base
and the awakened state of the hogyouku.

arrancar powers:

Cero (虚閃, lit. "hollow flash;" the pronunciation is Spanish for zero) are high-powered energy blasts that can be fired from the mouth or hand. Only menos, arrancar, and vizard have so far been shown to use cero attacks, and it appears that higher classes of hollow can use it more efficiently. It is unknown whether sufficiently strong regular hollows are capable of it, but Ichigo Kurosaki's inner hollow was able to use the attack when it fully took control of Ichigo during his training with the vizard.
Negación (反膜, lit. "counter membrane;" the pronunciation is Spanish for negation) fields are used to rescue fellow hollows. Only the gillian-class menos have shown the ability to use it. Negación fields surround a target in a square beam of light that isolates the target from the dimension they are currently in, making it impossible to harm them. The field then pulls the target towards the menos that created the field.
Gonzui (魂吸) is a technique used by Yammy to suck the souls from a large number of living people. Those with above average energy are able to survive the attack, but are left weakened.
Pesquisa (探査回路, lit. "inquiry circuit;" the pronunciation is Spanish for search) is the arrancar equivalent of the shinigami ability to sense spiritual pressure.
Hierro (鋼皮, lit. "steel skin;" the pronunciation is Spanish for iron) refers to the ultratough skin of the arrancar; while very strong, it is by no means invincible.
Sonido (響転, lit. "resounding revolution;" the pronunciation is Spanish for sound) is the arrancar equivalent of the shinigami flash steps; it allows the user to travel at incredibly high speeds for short distances.
Bala (虚弾, lit. "hollow bullet;" the pronunciation is Spanish for bullet) is a weaker but quicker alternative to the regular cero attack. The technique hardens the user's spiritual pressure and fires it at around twenty times the speed of a cero blast.
Garganta (黒腔, lit. "black cavity;" the pronunciation is Spanish for throat) is how larger hollows and arrancar move to and from Hueco Mundo. It literally tears open the dimensional fabric separating the worlds, revealing a tunnel of whirling, torrential energy that must be focused and solidified to create a discernible pathway.

poopoomaru
February 10, 2007, 06:01 PM
gilians-estimated chance of human characteristics:10-30%*
adjucchas-estimated chance of human characteristics:40-70%*
vasto lordes-estimated chance of human characteristics:80-100%*



Vasto Lorde have 100% chance of being human shaped and sized after hougyouku , because they were human shaped and sized before they got treated.

XEL
July 06, 2009, 01:03 PM
Title. Wouldn't normal hollows(not even gillian yet) and adjuchas look pretty much the same?

RaZe
July 06, 2009, 01:07 PM
Title. Wouldn't normal hollows(not even gillian yet) and adjuchas look pretty much the same?
aren't adjuchas pretty much all bone?

i dont recall seeing a fleshy or hairy one.
so that'd be my suggestion.

Josear XIII
July 06, 2009, 01:21 PM
Yep, adjuchas seems to be all white covered by a constitution similar to the masks of hollow.

Advice, you should put these kind simple Q&A here:
http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29732

kkck
July 06, 2009, 02:33 PM
I would think the main difference is the size(it would seem they are smaller than gillian but bigger than normal human sized hollows) and the mask. With adjuca it would seem as if they are completely covered with the same substance a hollows mask is made of to the point where there is no visible separation between body and mask. At least that is what it seemed like during the grimmjow gaiden.

Ozehro
July 16, 2009, 12:47 AM
A Vasto Lorde is considering to be the most powerful Hollow in existence. And Vasto Lorde as an arrancar is likely the most ultimate yet fearsome being to bout.

The question is: how will our heroes handle one of those über-beings and how will it affect the story? Let us hear you peoples' opinion!


Modified the title to cover a little bit broader topic since the thread was digressing slightly, but not enough to merit a new thread. ~ WL

how are battles normally solved? with plot kai. so no matter how powerful the enemy is, the hero can't die. and as long as the hero is alive the window for victory is always there.lol.

DR.DOOM
July 18, 2009, 12:59 PM
A nonarrancarised VL has to be stronger than Yama-ji becuase if nonarrancar VL is not stronger than yama than THE VL cannot defeat the RGS even they are arrancarised. VL are reserved for THE RGS. Aizen needs VL ARRANCARU TO DEFEAT THE RGS.

And please stop saying average captain. Hitsu said that they're combat abilities are above that of our captains. There is an S at the end of the word captain which implies every captain of Gotai 13 including Yama-ji.

There is no mention of average captain. Every captain says Hitsu is a genius. If he is a genius than why didn't he mention an "average captain".An average captain would be the level of Hitsugaya which means that the VL are only stronger than Hitsu. Give over people.


Regarding Ulquiorra first i believed he was a VL but latter proved he wasn't. Well Ulquiorra said himself that there are 3 more espadas more powerful than him which implies even in his second form the top 3 are more powerful than him.

BUT I HAVE TO SAY THE POWER LEVELS IN BLEACH ARE REALLY MESSED UP.