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RobinotX
October 20, 2008, 07:52 AM
Hey, I don't know if there was a topic about it already. But here I wanna discuss about the Schichibukai.. I also used the Search function, but didnt found anything..
If there is an topic about it.. sorry.

Well to start with the only one we don't know about = Jimbei..

Well they said in a chapter (I give the link later) That Jimbei is as strong as Arlong..

http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/69/08/

What do you guys think? What power has Jimbei.. how strong is he..

BlackHair
October 20, 2008, 08:49 AM
1. BB: He is the ultimate villain of this story, the antagonist. I think he is the strongest Shichi right now. There is no need to explain his powers.

2. Mwk: The strongest swordsman and ultimate goal of Zoro, I expect him a bit weaker than BB. Since I believe Luffy (->BB) is and will be always slightly stronger than Zoro (->Mwk), since he is the captain and the protagonist. His rank 2, slightly weaker than BB.

3. Jimbei: I believe he is on a whole different lvl than Arlong. I wouldn't be surprised if he would carry the title "strongest fishman"xD. Basically Im expecting him to be on Yonko/Admiral fighting lvl. Why? I don't have any facts, just that he is still hidden and probably the last notable fishman pirate. I put him as the 3rd strongest.

4. Flamingo: I believe he is the most powerful one among the Shichi. By powerful Im talking about influences, money and such as, not about fighting power. Since he seems to be a businessman. I just can't estimate his power, but seeing how is character is build up, I believe he is also one of the strongest. I put him as the 4th strongest alongside Kuma.

5. Kuma: I don't rly believe he will fight ever the SHs again. His ability among the paramecia is imo the best shown so far. I put him as the 4th strongest alongside Flamingo.

6. Hancock: I can't stand her, though she is one of Oda's best drawn character. Her attitude is shit like and I expect her to fall in this current arc. Luffy probably need Gear+haki to beat her, if they should fight though. Her rank:5

7. Gecko: He is too lazy to do anything. His ability is not rly suited for fighting imo. I don't have anything to praise him (lol) and yes I hate him. His rank: 6

8. Croco: First major foe in one piece. Luffy needed 3 rounds and the help of Robin. He has a logia ability, but the fact that he was beaten down without Gear+haki puts him down in the list. Imo the weakest (ex-)Shichi.

BB->Mwk->Jimbei->Kuma=Flamingo->Hancock->Gecko->Croco

Fox666
October 20, 2008, 05:12 PM
I already see another translation for that phrase, as "grow up with Jimbei" if I am not wrong.

kkck
October 20, 2008, 05:19 PM
This is how I rank the characters based on what we have seen:
1.- Blackbeard
2.- Mihawk
3.- Kuma
4.- Crocodile
5.- Moria

I think crocodile is being understimated because luffy beated him such a long time ago, but I think he could take moria in a one on one fight and maybe even kuma, depending on his (kuma) ability to hurt logias. I am going to rank the remaining shichibukai later on when their skills are revealed.

bittman
October 20, 2008, 09:35 PM
I did a tier list in the kuma thread, but I'll give my ranking with a little description:

1) Blackbeard - Clash of D's, Final Boss, Anti-hax-DF DF, based off one of Oda's favourite pirates
2) Mihawk - Zoro's final boss, fought Shanks, devastated Zoro/Kreig crew with ease, black sword
3) Kuma - Ridiculously strong DF, ridiculous robo-body, tyrant, has plans
4) Doflamingo - Hyped for ages, high ex-bounty, hopes to bring an end to dream-era, really really bad guy
5) Jimbei - Merman yes, final villain no, merman island boss yes
6) Moria - Defeated by Nightmare Luffy, still living on, deceitful and tricky, supreme mastery of DF ability
7) Crocodile - Claims mastery of ability, but never uses his water draining attack more than twice, so an idiot.
8) Hancock - Severely unimpressive thus far. Can defeat 75% of people only if they're lustful, but what about that other 25%?

I expect my ranks should stick well until the end of One Piece, Hancock and Jimbei may move a little given their lack of screen time thus far. I desperately hope Moria moves up, he's still alive and kicking so who knows?

JC123
October 21, 2008, 12:14 AM
1. BB: He is the ultimate villain of this story, the antagonist. I think he is the strongest Shichi right now. There is no need to explain his powers.

Wait, I don't think BB is the pen ultimate villain of OP quite yet. I think someone will be shown that's either stronger, on par, or just plain nastier than BB.

BlackHair
October 21, 2008, 12:43 AM
Wait, I don't think BB is the pen ultimate villain of OP quite yet. I think someone will be shown that's either stronger, on par, or just plain nastier than BB.I believe BB is around the 2nd strongest right now after WB. But since WB will probably fall in the upcoming war, he will take his place. BB's plan and how he moves (Ace), basically how he is build, makes him imo into ultimate villain. I mean he is already a known rival of Luffy, both are living on their dreams, of course there are some major differences.

Anyway, I think he is already at his own peak, I don't expect him to grow any stronger in battle power.. that's why I think he is already the ultimate villain. Though u r right, WB needs to fall, otherwise he won't be the most powerful pirate (in term of influence, fame etc).

I believe ppl are underestimating Hancock and overestimating Croco, there must be a reason why she was only recently shown, while Croco was firstly beaten. Note: Gears and haki!

My mere opinion :p

paradoxe
October 21, 2008, 05:04 AM
8) Hancock - Severely unimpressive thus far. Can defeat 75% of people only if they're lustful, but what about that other 25%?

We haven't seen the full capabilities of her power yet.

Turning a whole ship of marines into stone and forcing a Vice Admiral to stab himself..an impressive feat, no?

RobinotX
October 21, 2008, 06:39 AM
Hancock could defeat Blackbeard... ... or maybe not maybe he also isnt a perv xD (his DF only works when he touches the person.. I mean Ace could damage him too.

kkck
October 21, 2008, 11:12 AM
I dont think hancocks power would work on the stronger dudes of the manga. most of the strong guys around are either to dumb to notice a pretty girl or simply have to much focus on what they want so. For instance I doubt zoro, mihawk, garp, senjoku or other experienced characters would fall for hancocks trick.

Dice
October 21, 2008, 03:32 PM
I know it's a little bit of topic but what if there is a shichibukai who does lose against a D. but not against Luffy? I'm speaking of Don Flamingo and Blackbeard. Would be a nice a way to show his power later in the story when we know more about Flamingo's power and Blackbeard takes his move against the WG (what he must do sooner or later in the story, well it's rather later but who knows XD).
Another reason for them to fight would be that Blackbeard is a dreamer while Flamingo wants to stop such people.

BlackHair
October 21, 2008, 03:41 PM
I dont think hancocks power would work on the stronger dudes of the manga. most of the strong guys around are either to dumb to notice a pretty girl or simply have to much focus on what they want so. For instance I doubt zoro, mihawk, garp, senjoku or other experienced characters would fall for hancocks trick.If u r talking about only her "charm"-ability and turn to stone thing, then I would agree with you.

But, she can use haki (I guess that's certain) and she must be physically strong. I can't imagine her to be physically weak as a Shichi who was only recently shown and lastly namely mentioned. It also seems like she can use her DF ability to hurt other physically, like she did on Luffy.

Also you have to note: as the vice admiral countered her ability with pain, she wasn't even surprised. I guess she has already met guys like him. So she must have proven herself strong without depending on that ability.

bittman
October 21, 2008, 07:02 PM
We haven't seen the full capabilities of her power yet.

Turning a whole ship of marines into stone and forcing a Vice Admiral to stab himself..an impressive feat, no?

Sure, but if there is a Shichibukai who can't defeat a ship of marines and a Vice-Admiral, they seriously have problems. Speaking of which, I wonder how Crocodile is fighting on a ship? Perhaps I overestimate him seeing him fight in the middle of a desert...

I still think Hancock is not personally strong, but has a rarely totally countered power and then relies on the power of her crew. To this end I'd imagine her sister's are quite powerful, but I'm kind of supporting that with the Gorgon sister's myth and believing Hancock is Medusa. Like I said, Hancock may move (and maybe very soon), but right now she's dead last.

paradoxe
October 21, 2008, 08:58 PM
a Vice-Admiral

A Vice Admiral is strong.

I doubt Crocodile could completely annihilate a ship of marines along with the VA like Boa did, and it is very likely that that was only her weakest or most basic attack.

Not sure if Moria could defeat a VA, although it does seem likely. With Oz, he probably could, although if it was only by himself then I doubt it.

bittman
October 21, 2008, 10:07 PM
I think you over-estimate Vice Admirals on the other hand. I've seen at least 10 Vice-admirals in One Piece with power ranging from flashback Aokoji to the guy whose ship got creamed in the middle of the LuffyvLucchi fight. If Vice-Admirals were of the power you have just rated them, do you think he would have been able to stop the destruction to his ship?

I can also easily reference Saul, an ex-Vice Admiral. If Crocodile couldn't beat him with his one good hand tied behind his back then Crocodile's Oda-revised bounty meant absolutely nothing. And Moria can beat...actually I'm getting tired of defending Moria, but he can still beat a VC and I shouldn't need to even argue that. You almost made it sound like Oz got beaten by Luffy alone, or that a VC is way stronger than Luffy.

On the note of underestimating, I think you're doing that with the Shichibukai. Is it because there are 7 of them whilst only 3 admirals and 4 yonkou? A balance of power doesn't mean that each of them are equal in strength, but influence of power.

kkck
October 22, 2008, 02:48 PM
I think it depends on the VA in question, since they all vary in power. I think garp, for example, could fight and even defeat moria, or some other shichibukai, but that wouldnt nesesarily be the case for other VAs, who could probably be defeated by franky or brook.

Ranks arent absulote in OP, just look at smoker. He could probably take most of the shown VA and a few shichibukai.

Fox666
October 22, 2008, 08:02 PM
On the note of underestimating, I think you're doing that with the Shichibukai. Is it because there are 7 of them whilst only 3 admirals and 4 yonkou? A balance of power doesn't mean that each of them are equal in strength, but influence of power.The Yonkou have mates that may be strong as themselfes. And the Marines have another fighters with a world-class power...

bittman
October 22, 2008, 09:15 PM
I think it depends on the VA in question, since they all vary in power. I think garp, for example, could fight and even defeat moria, or some other shichibukai, but that wouldnt nesesarily be the case for other VAs, who could probably be defeated by franky or brook.

Ranks arent absulote in OP, just look at smoker. He could probably take most of the shown VA and a few shichibukai.

Yes, Garp and Smoker would be my two pet "Rankings mean nothing, so don't say VA > Shichibukai". I do think Smoker could defeat some Shichibukai, but I rate Smoker as half a step behind admirals in my mental One Piece world. Sadly we haven't seen him really fight, so I may not know for some time. Garp on the other hand is a VA, but I imagine, unlike other VA's, it is solely because of his strength. I can see Garp easily arguing with superiors, etc so promotions would have been hard earned for him.

In fact, both are very similiar in a way. I still think Smoker will be to Luffy what Garp was to Roger...well, not so much as "think" as "hope". In this way it's a shame we haven't seen more Moku Moku...


The Yonkou have mates that may be strong as themselfes. And the Marines have another fighters with a world-class power...
Nothing to say Yonkou's have mates as strong as themselves, though from what we know Ace is definitely something.

My main point was that: Because there are 7 Shichibukai, and 2 of these were defeated by rookies most people are putting them all in a lower category. How many people would automatically write-off Kuma against Admirals just because he's a Shichibukai?

paradoxe
October 23, 2008, 09:24 AM
I can also easily reference Saul, an ex-Vice Admiral. If Crocodile couldn't beat him with his one good hand tied behind his back then Crocodile's Oda-revised bounty meant absolutely nothing. And Moria can beat...actually I'm getting tired of defending Moria, but he can still beat a VC and I shouldn't need to even argue that. You almost made it sound like Oz got beaten by Luffy alone, or that a VC is way stronger than Luffy.

On the note of underestimating, I think you're doing that with the Shichibukai. Is it because there are 7 of them whilst only 3 admirals and 4 yonkou? A balance of power doesn't mean that each of them are equal in strength, but influence of power.

Saul was strong.

Didn't he like, completely pwn 4 of the buster ships by himself?

Anyway, my logic goes something like this. The WG is the world's strongest power, it has authority over all the countries in the world. Of course, Sengoku and the 3 Admirals are the very foundations of the WG, however, they can't be everywhere at once. It seems quite likely that the the 4th-10th most powerful marines should be able to beat a couple of rookies like Luffy or Kidd, or else the WG would have been overthrown ages ago. It is impossible for 3 Admirals to keep the 4 Yonkou, countless pirates and revolutionaries in check without adequate support form the lower ranks, and this includes Vice Admirals and Commodores. Remember, even Garp is a Vice Admiral, and I think he could quite easily beat Moria (yes I know hes a special case, but hes still a VA).


On the note of underestimating, I think you're doing that with the Shichibukai

Nah, I just rate Crocodile lowly. I think Moria is very strong, the average VA might not be able to beat him. However, Croc and Moria are the two weakest members fo the Shichibukai. Kuma and Mihawk are on entirely different levels. We can see that even within the Shichibukai, there are huge differences in power between the members, and I think its the same case with the Vice Admirals.


Nothing to say Yonkou's have mates as strong as themselves, though from what we know Ace is definitely something.

Pretty sure Ben Beckman, Yasopp, Lucky Roux and Marco are no pushovers either..

BlackHair
October 23, 2008, 12:05 PM
I think you over-estimate Vice Admirals on the other hand. I've seen at least 10 Vice-admirals in One Piece with power ranging from flashback Aokoji to the guy whose ship got creamed in the middle of the LuffyvLucchi fight. If Vice-Admirals were of the power you have just rated them, do you think he would have been able to stop the destruction to his ship?
I don't think there was a VA on the ship where Lucci and Luffy fought.On order from a VA they attacked the ship and sacrificed like 1k ppl.


My main point was that: Because there are 7 Shichibukai, and 2 of these were defeated by rookies most people are putting them all in a lower category. How many people would automatically write-off Kuma against Admirals just because he's a Shichibukai?
U are completly right. There is a power lvl among each groups as well.

I believe a VA is strong, maybe some are able to defeat Gecko while some not. Garp is entirely a different case. Same with Kaido, I don't think he is that strong, I even believe he is the weakest Yonko.

kkck
November 14, 2008, 02:40 PM
Given the recent developments about haki, hancock and earn a few points in my book. She could probably be among the stronger shichinukai, even win without using her turning people to stone ability. We know that she can hurt logias and other DF users because of her ability and apparently has a monstrous amount of haki which she still hasnt mastered.

Imitorar
November 14, 2008, 03:54 PM
Given the recent developments about haki, hancock and earn a few points in my book. She could probably be among the stronger shichinukai, even win without using her turning people to stone ability. We know that she can hurt logias and other DF users because of her ability and apparently has a monstrous amount of haki which she still hasnt mastered.
For the record, whether or not Haki can damage Logias is still unknown. It just looks that way now, but it very well may not be true. And Hancock CAN control her Haki, that lack of control line was referring to Luffy. That was a mistaken translation.

kkck
November 14, 2008, 04:29 PM
^That was a mistranslation? lol, IDK that...
I know haki wasnt stated to be able to harm logias, but at least it has been heavily implied. And not only for logias but for any DF user. Werent the gorgon sisters able to hurt luffy because of their haki?

RichardMNixon
November 14, 2008, 04:40 PM
Looked to me like Momonga have more trouble fighting a sea king than Captain T-Bone; I think there is a lot of spread within the marines. Hell, look at VA Tsuru, I don't see her taking on Crocodile. I'm still hoping Akainu is a weak fighter, just an unfeeling absolute justice zealot. Maybe with non-combat DF like Mr. 2.

I'd say the VAs at Enies Lobby were all weaker than Lucci, they seemed to think he couldn't lose. Is that what you would think while watching the fight of someone weaker than you? If you can beat them, wouldn't you expect someone else to be able to?

As for the Schicibukai, I'd say the average VA could not take any of them, though Garp, Smoker, or (I'm going out on a limb here) Saul probably could. I'm certain Momonga doesn't have a chance against Hancock; the man has to stab himself just to stay alive, that's not a good way to win a fight. The admirals and/or Sengoku are stronger though, I don't think Mihawk would submit to the WG if they had no threats on him.

Onomatopoeia
November 14, 2008, 05:01 PM
Of course he had to stab himself it's the only real way to beat a Sichibuki like Hancock.

Danre
November 14, 2008, 05:55 PM
All ranks in the Marines seem to have a general strength level with notable exceptions.

For instance, Captain seems to be a fairly weak rank (In terms of the overall power scale). I would put your average Captain... oh, I'd say maybe around Krieg or Kuro's strength? Somewhere in there. But then there are exceptions like Nezumi, who was godawful, and Smoker, who is godhax.

For Vice Admirals, I'd say the average power would be around... I want to say maybe mid-CP9. Maybe Kaku or Jyabura would be a good example of a Vice Admiral's strength, normally. Of course there are exceptions like Garp, who would be a bit too outspoken and rebellious to get promoted to Admiral I think.

As for the Shichibukai... most of them could and SHOULD be able to take out a ship of marines and a Vice Admiral, in my opinion. Garp and other notable exceptions don't count, of course.

Inkovic
November 14, 2008, 06:15 PM
I for one am shocked with a lot of people's low rankings Kuma, but I guess we have to expect Mihawk and BB to be insanely strong so they have to be ahead of him but Kuma looks invincible so far does he not? Name one character who the SH struggled so much against than him.

bittman
November 15, 2008, 07:56 PM
Don't worry Inkovic, I'm with you on that. Kuma is on high tier with them, and he has built quite the reputation for himself lately. He may not be the final boss that Mihawk and Blackbeard are most likely, but I doubt there will be a thick line between his strength and theirs.

On Marines: anything less than admiral has power gaps based on the way they rose through the ranks. Strength is not the only way to rise through the ranks, but it would be a requirement to be an admiral.

paradoxe
November 16, 2008, 02:58 AM
No, people are far overrating Kuma.

Razh
November 16, 2008, 12:04 PM
Why do you say that?

RichardMNixon
November 16, 2008, 03:39 PM
Of course he had to stab himself it's the only real way to beat a Sichibuki like Hancock.

Stabbing yourself isn't a good way to beat anyone, much less a Shichibukai (my apologies if you were being sarcastic). If he has to keep hurting himself just to be near her, how is he going to attack her or defend against her other attacks?

We still need to see how haki works to figure out the top tiers. I think we can assume Kuma is not the most powerful person in the world. If it wasn't possible to negate his ability, I think he would be, it's essentially a one-hit KO on anyone. I think there is some mechanism by which you could say "No thanks, Kuma. I'll stay here for now."

Razh
November 16, 2008, 06:38 PM
There isn't, because that's not how his DF works.

kikrox1
November 16, 2008, 06:54 PM
does anyone else think that luffy is shichibukai level after he killed 2 of them and can clearly beat hancock since her powers dont work on him

kkck
November 16, 2008, 08:25 PM
Clearly beat hancock? LOL
Hancock has been acknowledge as arguably the strongest kuja, her first bounty was 80 million and just with that she became a shichibukai. Not only that but she is able to use haki, and it has been implied she has a lot of haki. Also the only power hancock has that didnt work on luffy is the ability to turn people into stone. Her bullet kiss worked quite well and she probably has other abilities.
Unfortunately boa hasnt really done anything yet, she has barely moved a finger, it is way to soon to asume she is weak. I wouldnt be surprise in the least bit if she turns out to be among the strongest shichibukai, hell I would be disapointed if she isnt. Given everything shown in the manga so far, I wouldnt be surprise if luffy doesnt stand a chance in hell of beating her. Guess we have to wait and see, but still, saying luffy can clearly beat hancock is seriously understimating her.

RichardMNixon
November 16, 2008, 09:50 PM
There isn't, because that's not how his DF works.

Getting kicked is not in accordance with how Kizaru's power works either; it still happened.

I agree that we really don't have any idea how strong Hancock is. It is pretty telling that she made one act as a pirate and the WG immediately noticed her.

toxun
November 16, 2008, 10:23 PM
does anyone else think that luffy is shichibukai level after he killed 2 of them and can clearly beat hancock since her powers dont work on him

Beat them yes, but he didn't kill them as shown crocodile on cover story & umm Moria is taken away by Hogback & Absalom (it seem he still alive or they won't bother to take him away). Well, we already seen that Hancock is beaten :p in the heart :D

BlackHair
November 17, 2008, 04:19 AM
As soon as Luffy has mastered haki, I even believe he is almost on top tier lvl. Also there isn't such a "Shichi lv", since there are some weaklings (Croco) among them as well as some top tier dogs (Mwk).

About Hancock, seeing how Oda is building her up, I believe she is one of the weaker ones.

Razh
November 17, 2008, 05:29 AM
Getting kicked is not in accordance with how Kizaru's power works either; it still happened.


Don't compare Kuma and Kizaru, because their powers can't compare at all.
You suggested that there is a way that you can say to Kuma that you don't feel like going anywhere. And I'm saying that his paws repel every object, be it a rock or an ice-cream truck or a man. His question doesn't have anything to do with it.
So, if Kuma touches you with his paws, you're gonna fly until you reach an obstacle.

@blackhair: Don't let Oda pull a fast one one you. The way she behaves doesn't need to have anything to do with her strenght in battle.

RichardMNixon
November 17, 2008, 10:35 AM
Don't compare Kuma and Kizaru, because their powers can't compare at all.
You suggested that there is a way that you can say to Kuma that you don't feel like going anywhere. And I'm saying that his paws repel every object, be it a rock or an ice-cream truck or a man. His question doesn't have anything to do with it.
So, if Kuma touches you with his paws, you're gonna fly until you reach an obstacle.


I'm not suggesting it has anything to do with his question, just that a strong or strong-willed person can resist being repelled to an extent. If you still disagree with that then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

On Doflamingo's power, have we ever seen him control more than one person at a time? My impression was that while killing Bellamy he only had control of Sarquiss.

Razh
November 17, 2008, 11:36 AM
I'm not suggesting it has anything to do with his question, just that a strong or strong-willed person can resist being repelled to an extent. If you still disagree with that then we'll just have to agree to disagree.


Strong will? It's not Haki, it's Devil Fruit power.
Luffy's strong will didn't stop him from being sucked dry or turned into an ice sculpture either. That paw just deflects things, whether they like it or not.

RichardMNixon
November 17, 2008, 12:12 PM
Strong will? It's not Haki, it's Devil Fruit power.
Luffy's strong will didn't stop him from being sucked dry or turned into an ice sculpture either. That paw just deflects things, whether they like it or not.

To avoid getting off topic I started a new thread about the core of the issue. http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1115955#post1115955

Do Devil Fruit Powers Scale with their User?

Edit: Got moved to the Devil Fruit thread, link still works.

Fox666
November 17, 2008, 12:31 PM
On Doflamingo's power, have we ever seen him control more than one person at a time? My impression was that while killing Bellamy he only had control of Sarquiss.The fools around say "Why does Bellamy don't move?"...

RichardMNixon
November 17, 2008, 02:20 PM
The fools around say "Why does Bellamy don't move?"...

Is that in the anime or manga? Neither of the translations I have mention that.

While the puppeteer thing is pretty ridiculous in most cases, I don't think what we've seen so far from Doflamingo is very scary. The people he controls move quite slowly while fighting against his power the whole time (thought maybe that wasn't Oda's intention? you can't really judge their speed in the manga), and I'm still not sure he can control more than one person. I hope there's more to him that we haven't seen yet. I'm judging his power based primarily on his bounty, his influence, and his attitude (attacking marines in Mariejoa).

BlackHair
November 17, 2008, 02:23 PM
@blackhair: Don't let Oda pull a fast one one you. The way she behaves doesn't need to have anything to do with her strenght in battle.Im very well aware of that. Tbh everything hints towards her being strong, such as:


She was not suprised to see Luffy's speed (G2) and she was also not surprised after Mamongo countered her ability with pain, which let me conclude she must possess a rly impressive fighting ability/power/strength.
With introducing her, haki was more "specialized". It is also known, that she can use haki. Adding that to her natural fighting ability, would make her apart from her devil fruit damn strong.
She was one of the later introduced fighting character (Shichi), thus I believe she must be strong.
However, on the other hand her strongest subordinates (her sisters) were taken down by Luffy. Usually if the Boss is damn strong, the protagonist would have trouble beating her best subordinates. But this was not the case, Luffy was taking both of them at the same time, he was also able to terrify them with his haki. Also Oda is making her into a pathetic character.

Well, Im just saying things have changed a bit in the recent chapters. I still think she is strong, but not as I used to think at the beginning. Anyway, Im putting her lower than the monster trio atm. <- I have no basics to say that, just the impression I got from her, basically my mere opinion.



On Doflamingo's power, have we ever seen him control more than one person at a time? My impression was that while killing Bellamy he only had control of Sarquiss.
Why do u think Bellamy didn't dodge that? probably coz he wasn't able to, since Flamingo was controlling him as well. Also I remember him playing with the marine officers, both at the same time.

Razh
November 17, 2008, 03:12 PM
I'm not sure abouz Bellamy, but I'm pretty sure Doflamingo was controlling only one of them.

There was really no need for a new topic on this.
It's true that there are different levels of DF development. But Kuma's deflection is an elemental thing for his fruit. Just like Ace's fire burns people, Foxy's rays slow objects down or Buggy splits his body parts.
So, he deflects any objects with his paws.
Now, deflecting himself around and deflecting pain and fatigue or making bomb out of compressed air are different things, and he probably had to make a lot of effort to be able to use his DF in that way.

What I'm saying is that nobody, no matter how strong will he has, can't avoid being thrown away by those paws. And anything that can stop the flight is an obstacle, as we have already seen.
Now, I think it is possible that someone could avoid being deflected by those paws, but it would require a tremendous amount of body strenght.

Onomatopoeia
November 17, 2008, 07:57 PM
Stabbing yourself isn't a good way to beat anyone, much less a Shichibukai (my apologies if you were being sarcastic). If he has to keep hurting himself just to be near her, how is he going to attack her or defend against her other attacks?


It actually says something about Momonga, he got hit by her from a surprise attack. Yet had enough reaction speed to pull out a knife and stab himself in the arm to save himself and I haven't even begun with the amount of time he had to do all that was considerably cut down by the fact that he had to find a weakness to a DF which it's unlikely that he had anything more then a rudimentary knowledge(if any).

In a fight where he's actually expecting her attack and knows her ability I'd see the battle going very differently.

bittman
November 17, 2008, 08:01 PM
Actually I imagine it will be speed that conquers Kuma, not brute strength. In fact, the stronger the reflected hit, the stronger the reflected damage right? Some of the strongest repels have been off some of the strongest attacks we know (i.e. Luffy's jet pistol). Kuma cannot have his hands everywhere, so I can almost see a Gomu Gomu no Jet Gattling Gun breaking through Kuma. And when I say almost, I mean Luffy would need to be able to rebound very fast from the blocked attacks, which is not something he seems of a level to do atm.

So in a way, yes brute strength. However it won't be in the force of the attack, but in the force of the recovery.

Fox666
November 18, 2008, 01:02 AM
It's hard to deal in speed with Kuma... only if you can use a surprise attack.

Yans86
November 18, 2008, 02:21 AM
I totally agree with u guys,between the Shichi,Mihawk and BB are the strongest probably....Kuma for sure is strong but I don't think is his main attribute,I think there's something more to him!!!Hancock probably is stronger than Moria and Crocodile....but guys like Jinbei and Doflamingo are still stronger,even if we didn't see them!!!!

About the marine rankings,that's true,is not only power!!!!we have seen a lot of VA and probably there r huge differences between them...not mentioning Garp,I just remember in Ohara when Aokiji killed Saul.Yes Saul was strong enough to take a battleship with his barehands but Aokiji killed him in no time....and I think there r a lot of VA weaker than them at that time...

Razh
February 14, 2009, 05:56 PM
I would also bet Doflamingo, Kuma and Mihawk spend a great amount of their time in the New World.


Not necessarily. Certainly not a great amount of time. They aren't exactly popular among other pirates. New World could be too dangerous for "Government watchdogs".
I'd say Jinbei is different, since he can easilly get to NW and is close to Whitebeard. Kuma on the other hand is a story of it's own since he can go wherever he pleases.

Yans86
February 16, 2009, 06:22 AM
Seeing the new asset of the shichibukai........the only level they can reach right now,is Moria's in the worst case and Hancock in the best case!!!!!!
BB,Mihawk,Kuma,DoFlamingo and Jinbei are in another league........totally!

Jinbei is close to Whitebeard???ahahah ah funny funny!!!!!Jinbei just own a sort of debt to him,cause he saved FI from caos long time ago.....do u really think that they are friend??Jinbei almost killed Ace,and we know how far WB can go if someone hurt his sons....

However,to say that the NW is dangerous for the Shichi.....damn,are u serious?!
Is dangerous for who???for the strongest swordman in the world that doesn't want to fight Shanks anymore....(cause he lost an arm).......is dangerous for BB that has the strongest Logia around.........or for Kuma that has a cyborg body,can move at the speed of light,and send u everywhere he want???
Really what r u talking about?!DoFlamingo is quite a badass,ready to overcome everyone....where do u think are we going to meet him?was he in the first half??
Jinbei is the strongest fishman......
Hancock has king haki,a DF charming every man........mmmmm....

yeah,maybe for Moria that fought "even" with one of the yonkou....

Crocodile to a certain extent was the weaker,but seriously....that was plot no jutsu....he can dry an entire palace and he had problem with two drops on his skin....

And however,is not like the others pirate team up to fight those guys!if u consider 3 silver medalist as the yonkou,how many others do u think there are that can fight at least evenly with those guys?????mah...

Razh
February 16, 2009, 06:49 AM
Jinbei is close to Whitebeard???ahahah ah funny funny!!!!!Jinbei just own a sort of debt to him,cause he saved FI from caos long time ago.....do u really think that they are friend??Jinbei almost killed Ace,and we know how far WB can go if someone hurt his sons....

Only thing that's funny here is you. I suggest you read chapter 529 again, more accurately this page (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/529/02/), where Jinbei says that he had visited Whitebeard's ship many times.
And for your information, the fight between Ave and Jinbei happened before Ace actually joined Whitebeard pirates, as it is evident from Ace's flashback when he spoke with Garp in one of previous chapters.
I don't want to give you a link to that, nor should I.


However,to say that the NW is dangerous for the Shichi.....damn,are u serious?!
Is dangerous for who???for the strongest swordman in the world that doesn't want to fight Shanks anymore....(cause he lost an arm).......is dangerous for BB that has the strongest Logia around.........or for Kuma that has a cyborg body,can move at the speed of light,and send u everywhere he want???
Really what r u talking about?!DoFlamingo is quite a badass,ready to overcome everyone....where do u think are we going to meet him?was he in the first half??
Jinbei is the strongest fishman......
Hancock has king haki,a DF charming every man........mmmmm....

I am serious. That sort of generalization is a very poor argument. After all, one man can only do so much against an entire crew. Or maybe more of them. You think Mihawk can dsetroy ships and kill people with no end without getting tired?
You think Blackbeard can avoid a rain of bullets or cannonballs?
Doflamingo? Yes, he's probably strong, but who knows how strong. And how do you know where he was? Especially you, who didn't even know that Jinbei was on Whitebeard's ship many times.
If you're going to provoke me or try to discredit my arguments, at least put some thought in what you're going to write.


yeah,maybe for Moria that fought "even" with one of the yonkou....

Who knows how many years ago. And you're not exactly even with your enemy when you get beaten and lose your entire crew.


And however,is not like the others pirate team up to fight those guys!if u consider 3 silver medalist as the yonkou,how many others do u think there are that can fight at least evenly with those guys?????mah...

Not all of the pirates are honorable people. Nobody compels pirates to give fair fights. And there are probably a lot of crews who wouldn't hesitate to kill on of Shichibukai by any means necessary.
We had a fine example with Moria. Was he going to fight Kaidou evenly, mano a mano, or was he going to use his army of zombies to bring him and his crew down?

Razh
February 16, 2009, 07:05 AM
I have no doubt that Luffy wouldn't disband his crew (a requirement for being one) for him to be able to be a Shichibukai.


We can't say for sure that disbanding your crew is a requirement for becoming a Shichibukai. It was just stated that Jinbei had to leave a part of his crew in East Blue.
Doflamingo has pirates under him, Moria was peacefully increasing his crew without being bothered, Hancock still has her pirate crew...
And I really doubt that Blackbeard abandoned his crewmembers which were so nicely introduced to the story.
So, no I don't think that disbanding your crew is a basic requirement for Shichibukai post, just a condition that is given to some of them. Each of them is in a different situation. Like Hancock and her island were left alone till she does what WG says. It was probably the same with Jinbei and Fishman Island.

Yans86
February 16, 2009, 07:39 AM
Razh,u really make me laugh!
Shanks too has visited WB and they know each other from a long time...are they friend?!
Ace fought against Jinbei before fighting and joining WB???ahahaha u r funny!!!!u can draw that page if u want :-P maybe it's u the one that has to read again http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/529/03/ (I post it cause I'm a gentleman)...

To WB and Jinbei to talk each other is normal,fishman island it's his territory,but Jinbei is not only shichibukai but also the strongest fishman and an ex pirate,why can't they have business???

If Mihawk was that weak.....why didn't they took him down already?he his a dog of the government and he his all alone right?!.........tsk

DoFlamingo is a badass or he wouldn't be a Shichi first of all.....secondly he want become the Pirate King and he HAS a crew....I don't know where he was,but I know what he want to do,and I know that the slave business take him a lot of money,million berry.....what is he supposed to do with all them?please tell me,someone that want to become pirate king,what is going to do with all those money?holidays?!

About Moria I wrote "even".....between elipses......do u know what it means?that is supposed that they fought evenly but actually no one knows.However it's a clear hint that he was able to stand and fight almost at his level at least,even if he loose....
I know that u never listen such expression,but that's only your problem!

Pirates are for definition evil......Moria could have fought as the way he wanted,if he would have won,he would have one,no compassion for the loser,only shame.However if there are all this team of super strong pirate to takedown the shichibukai,tell me where are they THANKS

Razh
February 16, 2009, 07:53 AM
Razh,u really make me laugh!
Shanks too has visited WB and they know each other from a long time...are they friend?!
Ace fought against Jinbei before fighting and joining WB???ahahaha u r funny!!!!u can draw that page if u want :-P maybe it's u the one that has to read again http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/529/03/ (I post it cause I'm a gentleman)...


I just assumed you actualy read it.
Here, does this here ring any bells? - http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/525/03/

And stop being so rude. That's no way to contribute a discussion. Certainly not what a gentleman would do.
And you killed my desire for any response, other than giving you the link.

Yans86
February 16, 2009, 08:16 AM
Aha haah a perfect the bells are ringing!!!!!he fought WB here,not Jinbei as u said :-D

However,if u say that Mihawk can't keep up........how can Luffy with a crew of 10 persons become the pirate king against the world(pirate+marine+everyone out there)????boh............tsk

bax
February 16, 2009, 09:03 AM
Ok, calm down people. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. If you wish to argue with it, argue it properly. No need to attack anyone else, what's the point of a discussion if you do anyway? By all means, if you think you're right, give proofs from pages and such. Unless it is explicitly said so in the manga, everyone's thoughts here are merely opinions, theories and guesses, so everyone is equal here.

Thanks.

Razh
February 16, 2009, 10:10 AM
People?
I'm perfectly calm. I always give proof when it's available. So I hope that slap on the wrist wasn't pointed at my direction too, since I'm not the one who got emotionally involved in this discussion.

So, about my "theory" that Jinbei was fighting Ace before he actually joined the crew.
We have Ace and Jinbei talking about their fight. Than Jinbei says that he was only trying to be of some use to Whitebeard. That should be enough for most people to conclude that Ace wasn't part of Whitebeard pirates at the time of the fight. After all, how could Jinbei be of use to Whitebeard by almost killing his second mate?
And just because Jinbei isn't shown in Ace's flashback, doesn't mean that it wasn't him. Ace's opponent wasn't relevant for that flashback. Only thing that was releveant was the way Whitebeard took him in.
Also, if Jinbei is friend with Whitebeard pirates, why oh why would he fight Ace almost to the death?

Yans86
February 16, 2009, 10:51 AM
Actually,after remembering the fight he had with Ace(and is not like WB and Marco couldn't handle it).....the argument goes forward.
When Jinbei says " I just wanted to be of some use to that man",is addressing to the current situation and his will to help WB in this matter.He explain why he want to help him (story of Fishman island) http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/529/03/.....then again at the end of the story he used the same words,saying "I wanted to stop this battle if it cost me my life!!!!I wanted to get you outta here Ace-San"

He always use "WANTED",but is more than clear that is talking about the current situation.

Razh
February 16, 2009, 12:03 PM
That's more like it.

Yeah, it could be interpreted that way, it's not like I didn't try to see it that way before.
But when I thought about it more, it became obvious that Jinbei said it in an apologetic way. After all, he was talking about himself at the time, and it doesn't make sense to suddenly refer to the current situation and then continue the story.

And the fact that he used the same words doesn't mean absolutely nothing. Nothing weird about it. After all, I hear it around me every day.

Finale
February 16, 2009, 04:37 PM
One last comment on the whole was Ace part of WB's crew before his fight with Jinbei, if Ace was a member at the time of his fight with Jinbei it wouldn't be surprising to Ace that Jinbei has visited WB's ship many times before because he likely would've been present for at least one such meeting.

As far as the SH's and Shichibukai level go, Jinbei being on the up and up kinda ruins my hopes for Sanji having a Shichibukai level opponent unless he fights Doflamingo or someone else that could be added later. Before he was even introduced I pictured Jinbei as being a powerful fishman karate martial artist that would be his version of Mihawk vs Zoro. However being the honorable man that he is I doubt he would fight Sanji if Luffy is the one to rescue him. After this arc it may be a while before the SHs face another Shichi since I see them making their moves while the WG is in disarray after the WB war. So there may be a few openings in the Shichi ranks.

Razh
February 16, 2009, 07:59 PM
Sorry Imitorar, but I just can't let this slide without explaining one more thing.
As far as I'm concerned, the offtopic posts could have been moved to a better topic quite a few posts ago.


One last comment on the whole was Ace part of WB's crew before his fight with Jinbei, if Ace was a member at the time of his fight with Jinbei it wouldn't be surprising to Ace that Jinbei has visited WB's ship many times before because he likely would've been present for at least one such meeting.


You might want to read this page (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/529/02/) again.
Ace was only surprised about Jinbei's claim that he hates pirates.
But I agree otherwise.

No, just to say at least something about the title of the thread.
Luffy is already there, more or less, since Shichibukai's strenght varies a lot. Zoro isn't that far behind either, but Sanji has a little more work cut out for him.
It's not something that will happen in a blink of an eye.

Well, the discussion has been moved, as I said it would be. To everyone, please keep your discussion of the strength of the Shichibukai in this thread, and out of the other thread.

bittman
February 16, 2009, 11:29 PM
Some recent discussion got me thinking for a bit. You know how often we love sizing up the Strawhat's against the threats (well at the moment its the jailbreak league vs Impel Down we're guessing), so let's say Oda gets bored tomorrow (not gonna happen) and stereotypically matches the 8 Shichibukai (if you include Crocodile) against the nine Strawhat's. What fights would you expect?

My list would be:
Luffy v Blackbeard (Clash of D's)
Zoro v Mihawk (kinda obvious)
Sanji v DoFlamingo (Opposing personalities, but I can still see similarities)
Robin v Hancock (...well it would be hot if nothing else...)
Nami v Moria (both kind of mage style fighters)
Chopper v Kuma (a doctor against doctor vegapunks greatest creation)
Ussop v Jimbei (wannabe-brave versus a fishman of honour)
Franky v Crocodile (I dunno, steel versus sand seems like a clash of eras though)

....and Brooke plays background music...

Makki
February 17, 2009, 02:13 AM
Somewhere here I saw, someone stated that DoFlamingo wants to be pirate king...
That is absolutely not true.. It seems his plan is to destroy all the dreaming in the world (was it that?, please correct me if I am wrong).
Also his power seems to be pretty strong. It seems he can control people against their will (I remember one chapter where he used that). So I guess a strong will (maybe some reference to Haki (King Haki) is needed to fight him.
That all makes me doubt anyone of the SH would fight against DoFlamingo besides Luffy, just cuz luffy and doflamingo seem to oppose each other the most. But still there is no evidence for that either. Just my opinion and theory about Doflamingo.

And luffy surely is on the level of a shichibukai. But it is also true that he would not stand a chance against Mihawk for example. Same goes maybe for Zoro against Jimbei oder Sanji against Boa (definitely.haha). Their abilities are just so various that no one can beat all others. I think the same goes for the Shichibukai if they had to fight against each other.
I felt like saying this...

Razh
February 17, 2009, 04:54 AM
Doflamingo isn't after the destruction of dreaming for the sake of it.
Who gives a shit if people will dream or not. It's just that his philosophy is different, and he thinks poorly of people who do dream, to simplify it.
Of course he wants to become a Pirate King. Otherwise he wouldn't give us all that crap about how the New Age is coming.

And I don't know if a strong will alone is going to be of any help. He seems to control muscles of other people, or maybe even nervous impulses. We have yet to see what's the principle behind his puppetry.

minimz
February 20, 2009, 03:09 AM
I have a question, and I just want to say, I'm not arguing or anything, I'm just unsure of something.

How is Mihawk considered weaker than Black Beard? I know that he has given Shanks a scar, but he said that he was slow, and would be hurt more if he got hit than regular people would (I think, when he was vsing Ace and as he got burned). Also, I don't think Shanks lost to BB, otherwise he would have been caught, or at least injured more, he doesn't look like the guy that runs from a battle simply because he can not win. It was more likely because he didn't want to start anything with the Shichibukai.

I'm pretty sure Zoro is fast, which means Mihawk is faster, and could probably kill Black Beard before he used anything like that black hole thing. But even if BB got a hand on Mihawk somehow, it wouldn't do him much good, as Mihawk doesn't have DF abilities.

I was just wondering because Everyone put Mihawk below Blackbeard, could someone help explain to me why? :s

Lord Rayleigh
February 20, 2009, 09:07 AM
Also, I don't think Shanks lost to BB, otherwise he would have been caught, or at least injured more, he doesn't look like the guy that runs from a battle simply because he can not win. It was more likely because he didn't want to start anything with the Shichibukai.

Do you remember the first time we saw Shanks - when Luffy was a kid and when we Shanks was just beginning his own adventure as a captain - he already has this scar.
So, it has nothing to do with BB as a Shichibukai. Moreover, BB wasn't a DF user either when he injured Shanks because he hasn't betrayed WB yet : indeed, at this time, Ace wasn't a pirate yet.

I suppose Shanks got his scar when him and BB were both under a Captain, Gold Roger for Shanks and WB for BB when they were both ship's boy, novice.
If someone could find the picture when Shanks proposed Buggy to be his nakama, we normally would see the scar. If we see it, it means, he really got it when he was a Gold Roger's nakama. Otherwise, he got it when he was himself a captain and before he first met Luffy.
He could also have got it during the year that precedes Gold Roger's death because Gold Roger disturbed the crew one year before he was killed. But it seems improbable : I don't see Shanks fighting the WB pirates alone ...

kkck
February 20, 2009, 11:35 AM
Well, shanks is expected to be able to fight at or even above the admiral level given that he is a yonkou and everything. He said BB gave him that wound and it was no accident and there wasnt any carelessness on shanks part, meaning BB was strong enough to actually give shanks an injury when fighting seriously. Not only that but shanks was visible concerned of what BB might want to do and was certain ace wouldnt be able to defeat BB. While whether BB being able to defeat mihawk is pure speculation, it is very reasonable to assume BB is at the very least in the same tier as mihawk.

Lord Rayleigh
February 20, 2009, 02:10 PM
Well, shanks is expected to be able to fight at or even above the admiral level given that he is a yonkou and everything. He said BB gave him that wound and it was no accident and there wasnt any carelessness on shanks part, meaning BB was strong enough to actually give shanks an injury when fighting seriously.

Yes, BB was strong enough to give him such an injurie but why are you talking about Admiral Level and Yonkou ? Shanks was not so strong at this time.
If I said, Alvida was strong enough to beat Coby (when he was not a marine yet), you cannot say that Alvida is at present as strong as Coby. This is the same with the guy who tried to kill Luffy when he was a kid. This is the same with Moria and Kaidou etc ...
And of course, this is the same with BB : it was at a certain time he got the scar.
Shanks is a yonkou and BB is not. BB is someone who will grow more and more but you cannot conclude BB is as strong or near Shanks in terms of strenght from the scar. So you cannot compare present and past. But the interesting thing is that his scar is burning, not only that he got the scar. WB also have a lot of scars of old ennemies but at present, there is no scar that burns (it means no old ennemy dangerous for him). Whereas, with Shanks'scar burning, we know that BB - who has always been strong - is now a really dangerous guy.

minimz
February 20, 2009, 07:09 PM
Oh ok, it makes sense now, lol it gave me a shock that BB could give shanks (present) a scar... I guess BB would be roughly as strong as Mihawk, but I still think Mihawk's cooler ;D, anyway i just wanted to say thanks for clearing that out:amuse

Phase
March 29, 2009, 07:33 PM
Who is the strongest among the Shichibukai? I wanted to use Crocodile instead of BB because I assumed that BB would win a majority of the vote.

kkck
March 29, 2009, 08:20 PM
I am inclined to believe mihawk is the strongest of the group you presented. I believe he could fight on par with either WB or shanks and the admirals.

Forever_Melody
March 29, 2009, 08:22 PM
Mihawk used to duel with Shanks back in the day he had 2 arms though no? :blink

And nothing says that he lost baddly(or even if he lost IIRC) so technically, he CAN fight on par with Shanks lol :p

Phase
March 29, 2009, 08:46 PM
Mihawk is the most likely person probably, which is funny because he's the only one without DF powers. I don't really think that Croc or Moria have a chance since Luffy defeated them already. The rest all have an argument to be made for them. We're pretty well aware of Kuma's power, but the other 3 are still all up to personal instinct.

Imitorar
March 29, 2009, 09:26 PM
Somehow I have a feeling that everybody is going to say "Mihawk" simply because he looked so cool in his first appearance. I mean, there's nothing else to base it on. So he fought Shanks evenly, that was 10 years ago. Things can change in a decade. We have yet to see Jimbei fight, or see Hancock or Doflamingo engage in serious combat anyway, not to mention that Kuma looked mighty threatening back in chapter 484, and Moria gets shortchanged because Luffy beat him People have a tendency to ignore the beginning of chapter 464 and remember that Nightmare Luffy was the deciding factor in that fight. Crocodile also gets shortchanged, but he's much harder to defend, since he was actually outfought by Luffy, but bear in mind that it was a close thing, with Luffy saved twice and getting several lucky breaks. If he hadn't been conveniently carrying water around his neck, he never would have figured out how to hurt Crocodile. The circumstances ended up playing to Luffy's favor, but in circumstances less convenient for the opponent, Crocodile would be much more deadly.

In short, I think that due to lack of proper exposure, and no other way to determine strength in One Piece, you can't really judge which Shichibukai is the strongest. Personally, I'd be inclined toward Mihawk, Kuma, or Doflamingo, maybe Moria, but that's leaving Jimbei out just because we've seen absolutely NOTHING from him. So in shorter... I think that it could really be any of them except for Crocodile or Hancock.

Forever_Melody
March 29, 2009, 09:29 PM
I wonder what Hancock can really do though. I mean, sure she turns people to stone, but what of her combat capacities? IMO, this one power alone shouldn't be enough to net her a Shichibukai position... :s

Oh and I personally would like to see Jimbei considering the strength of the Fishmen. Sengoku implied that his strength would be nearly pivotal to the combat as compared to say other Shichibukai such as Hancock joining.

Imitorar
March 29, 2009, 09:40 PM
The thing about Hancock is that her sheer sex appeal can knock out most men right off the bat, which is a humongous asset (pun not intended). And we HAVE seen her do more than turn people into stone (http://onemanga.com/One_Piece/518/06/). It's that page that makes me think that there's far more to the Mero Mero Fruit than just turning people to stone. We just haven't seen her do anything with it other than that and one usage of Pistol Kiss, which is kind of easy to miss. She's definitely got combat abilities, we just haven't seen them yet. The same could be said of Doflamingo. In fact, if anything, we've seen MORE of Hancock's abilities than we have of Doflamingo's, and considering the pittance of Hancock's we've really seen, it only emphasizes that we really know nothing about most of the Shichibukai.

mugen
March 29, 2009, 10:19 PM
why is blackbeard the strongest?? hawkeye including everyone though has my vote.

kkck
March 30, 2009, 12:44 AM
Mihawk used to duel with Shanks back in the day he had 2 arms though no? :blink

And nothing says that he lost baddly(or even if he lost IIRC) so technically, he CAN fight on par with Shanks lol :p

:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:D


I wonder what Hancock can really do though. I mean, sure she turns people to stone, but what of her combat capacities? IMO, this one power alone shouldn't be enough to net her a Shichibukai position...

Oh and I personally would like to see Jimbei considering the strength of the Fishmen. Sengoku implied that his strength would be nearly pivotal to the combat as compared to say other Shichibukai such as Hancock joining.
I am pretty sure hancock is inmensely strong to say the least. We know she is stronger than any kuja, and we saw what the fodder kuja could do with their arrows; for boa just imagine that times 1000 lol. I daresay she could take out a battleship with one or two arrows lol. Just the fact that she has haki is enough to assure logias biggest advantage(intangibility) is non-existent for her(of course assuming haki allows you to do that, which has been heavily implied to say the least).

Jimbei is another monster, given what ace said, he fought ace and lived another day lol. He apparently also "visited" WB ship but I doubt he went there to chill and have a few beers with the old man lol.
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/529/02/

I am still inclined to believe mihawk is stronger though, even if things have change since his duels I doubt he got left behind in terms of strength by shanks or any other(BTW I read somewhere the databook stated losing an arm didnt make shanks weaker lol).

toxun
March 30, 2009, 04:30 AM
They're strong if they could use their fullest potencies of their body. While DoFlamingo could take control movement of somebody else. If they're under DoFlamingo control They can't control his body, so they can't attack physically or escape (Haki/strong mind might negate it though but there's no evidence). Don't think his higest bounty comes from nothing.

DutchPhoenix
March 30, 2009, 09:03 AM
facts that we know
1. mihawk and shanks duelled alot
2. shanks didnt lose any power when he lost his arm
3. shanks is also a swordsman
4. mihawk is the strongest swordsman in the world

sum that up and i get
mihawk is more powerfull then shanks, but its damn close else they wouldnt have many duels.

Belisar
March 30, 2009, 09:11 AM
facts that we know
1. mihawk and shanks duelled alot
2. shanks didnt lose any power when he lost his arm
3. shanks is also a swordsman
4. mihawk is the strongest swordsman in the world

sum that up and i get
mihawk is more powerfull then shanks, but its damn close else they wouldnt have many duels.
wah? they fought before shanks lost an arm. we don't know who won their fight, it was never stated. i assume they are equally strong because they must have fought to the death but both are still alive. and where did you read that they fought more than once?

besides the scar shanks got from blackbeard, when he met whitebeard he said that this scar aches most. http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/434/11/ http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/434/12/
i think blackbeard didn't even had the logia fruit back then. maybe he had.

DutchPhoenix
March 30, 2009, 09:14 AM
since its stated ''duelS'' and not ''duel''

+ data book says mihawk IS the strongest swordsman.. u cant really argue about that :)

just saying what kind of a monster shanks is that hes almost as strong as mihawk

Belisar
March 30, 2009, 09:20 AM
since its stated ''duelS'' and not ''duel''

+ data book says mihawk IS the strongest swordsman.. u cant really argue about that :)

just saying what kind of a monster shanks is that hes almost as strong as mihawk
who said that shanks can't fight without his sword. rayleigh has a sword, too but he fought with kizaru barehandedly until he created a sword of light.

Metal D. Reaper
March 30, 2009, 11:30 AM
I think its Jimbei!
because:1.Mihawk fought Shanks fought 10 years ago and Shanks is now a emporor and Mihawk a shishibukai.
2.Moria was beaten by Luffy and he can't fight without his shadows.
3.Hancock can't use haki completely and haki can linked with love think of garp and his love fist Luffy's head didn't stretch and hancock's love pistol.low bounty
4.Kuma his power can be controled by the use of Haki
5.Doflamingo his power too when haki used his power has no effect maybe he has a great fighting skill don't know
6.Blackbeard not strong enough plus don't uses haki or else he would use it against ace.and he is vunerable to very strong attacks and I think that WB can do that.
7.Jimbei he is a fishmen soo he can swim witch alot can't soo he can destroy the ships from under water he is tall and he is a whale shark the biggest fish their is.
8.Crocodile not because Jimbei can just spit water on him and he is almost beaten.

Soo I think its Jimbei only one witch can't be beaten with haki.

neomaster121
March 30, 2009, 02:39 PM
Mihawk
simply hes the world strongest swordsmen
who can handle gunners

Shanks seems to be a swordsman too
they did duel but when Shanks lost his arm mihawk saw him as weakened and so stopped fighting him

Shichibukai are a balance against the 4emperors
3 admirals with logia plus shichibukai match emperors

one of the shichibukai have to be at the level of an emperor considering what we've seen from the others

moria lost to kaidou whos in the bottom half of the power 4 wb n shanks top half of course

but anyways Mihawk got my vote
last one to see the bounty off for a reason

Dice
March 30, 2009, 02:44 PM
I almost disagree with everything you wrote Metal D. Reaper. While I think that Jimbei could indeed be the strongest (didn't Yosaku say something like that?) I think your reasoning isn't right.

1. Does anything state that an individual shichibukai can't be as strong as an yonkou? The difference in power of the shichibukai is quite big so far. Personally I do think that the strongest swordsman is in the same league as the yonkou (only counting the captains here).

2. Doppelman alone is a quite strong ability he has got. And even without accumulation shadows Moria is no push over. Or are saying that without his fruit he'd be weak? If that's the case (but I think you are only speaking of the shadows he has stolen) than think of Luffy without his fruit. He'd never have a chance against Lucci, Enel, Moria, Crocodile...

3. I'm not sure about that but wasn't it a misunderstanding that she hasn't mastered haki? And the bountything shouldn't be a keyfactor if we are talking about their strenght.

4.Where do you get that?

5.Same as "4" plus like you said we don't know anything about his fighting skill.

6. How do you know that he doesn't know Haki? He simply has no need to use it since his fruit negates the DF. And if you think about it: He said that he would suffer more damage because of his fruit if he gets hit. If Haki actually nullifies the DF in some way than that could even help him. So he would receive only the normal damage. And how can you know that he is not strong enough?

7. While I think that Jimbei is a real beast if it comes to fighting and don't think that your arguments are that convincing. At most your swimming-thing. There is actually a reason why the DF user a changing the power to swim with the DF power. So I don't think that destroying ships from under water means really much.

8. Because Jimbei could win against Crocodile you rate him overall higher than Crocodile? Maybe I'm misunderstanding this part here.


So my opinion is that BB will be the last antagonist and therefore he will be the strongest (he might already be the strongest but who knows). There is a quite good reasoning somewhere in this forum which describes the reason why BB will/might be the final villain.
But since BB isn't included we don't need to bother.
So my choice is: *damdamdam* Mihawk! "Why?" you might ask! Simply because he is the nemesis of Zoro who (=Zoro) will eventually (most probably) be one of the strongest beings (just like Rayleigh was). Furthermore he is the strongest swordman which should also count something.
"Kinda weak arguments" some might say. And there would be right. But I also think that at least Kuma and most probably Jimbei are really strong but they are not the strongest shichibukai.

Since we are missing many facts here (the power of many shichibukai....) I'm considering the built up of the characters. But because we are missing these facts it comes down to a personal opinion so everything might be true.



ps: @Metal D. Reaper: Was your sig the big one of Kidd?

Imitorar
March 30, 2009, 08:03 PM
facts that we know
1. mihawk and shanks duelled alot
2. shanks didnt lose any power when he lost his arm
3. shanks is also a swordsman
4. mihawk is the strongest swordsman in the world

sum that up and i get
mihawk is more powerfull then shanks, but its damn close else they wouldnt have many duels.
I remember how several other threads involving Mihawk went once you came, so I'm only going to do this once.

The flaw in your logic is that you assume that Mihawk somehow beat Shanks to get the title. From what we know of the situation, he didn't. What happened seems to have been that Shanks left the Grand Line for a year while his feud with Mihawk was still unresolved. Since he left, he was considered "out of the running", and Mihawk got the title "strongest swordsman in the world". Then Shanks came back, sans left arm. He says that it hasn't affected his strength, and there's no reason to disbelieve him. But Mihawk doesn't care, he refuses to fight a one-armed man, meaning that he has never been challenged by Shanks for his title. Factoring in that Mihawk got the title not by beating Shanks, but by default, because Shanks appeared to have given up, we see that their feud is still unresolved. We don't know who was stronger then, and we don't know who's really stronger now. There's no conclusive evidence for either one being stronger than the other.

And aside from the lack of conclusive evidence that Shanks is stronger than Mihawk, that doesn't necessarily mean that none of the other Shichibukai are stronger than Mihawk. Nowhere was it stated that Shanks was the strongest except for Mihawk and Whitebeard, so it could be that Mihawk and another Shichibukai are stronger than him, or another Shichibukai and not Mihawk, or no Shichibukai, including Mihawk. There's simply no way to tell.

DutchPhoenix
March 31, 2009, 07:12 PM
then why did oda gave him the title of strongest swordsman :)
oda doesnt give such titles withoud reason imo.

and ur saying that they fought for the title...
i personally think mihawk already had that title and shanks failed to take it away from him.
but zoro wont fail in the end

Yami_Yami_No_Mi_89
March 31, 2009, 09:39 PM
i assume blackbeard will be the final enemy, natural enemy against luffy... mihawk will be the final enemy of zoro, (zoro will defeat kuma too but mihawk i think could be his final goal) so i vote mihawk could be 2nd in rank after teach

Imitorar
March 31, 2009, 09:57 PM
then why did oda gave him the title of strongest swordsman :)
oda doesnt give such titles withoud reason imo.

and ur saying that they fought for the title...
i personally think mihawk already had that title and shanks failed to take it away from him.
but zoro wont fail in the end
Oda gave him the title "Strongest Swordsman in the World" because that's how the world knows him. But I'm saying that the world gave him that title not because he beat Shanks, but because Shanks seemed out of the running. Therefore, Shanks may have been stronger, and may be stronger now, but we don't know. I mean, by your logic, as soon as Zoro becomes strong enough to beat Mihawk, Mihawk is no longer the strongest swordsman in the world. And in a technical sense, he isn't. But the title doesn't transfer to Zoro until he defeats Mihawk. In other words, just because Mihawk has the title doesn't necessarily mean that nobody could out-fence him, it means that the world recognizes him as the best, although there may be someone better, but they aren't officially recognized until they best Mihawk. And as I said, he won't fight Shanks, so Shanks was stripped of his chance to get the title. But that doesn't mean that isn't strong enough to have it.

And based on what Whitebeard said, Mihawk and Shanks were both rookies trying to make names for themselves ten years ago. The rivalry was cast as a battle between two promising young rookies on equal footing, not a challenge from an upstart young challenger to an established master.

And again, all of this is pointless, and I won't be continuing the discussion in this thread to avoid driving it off-topic, because even if Mihawk is stronger than Shanks (which he very well may be), that doesn't mean that he's stronger than the other 6 original Shichibukai. Who's to say that Kuma or Doflamingo isn't stronger than Shanks but weaker than Mihawk, or stronger than Shanks and Mihawk, or stronger than Mihawk but weaker than Shanks? We don't know where Shanks stands in the world ranking, so being stronger than him doesn't necessarily make someone stronger than any other major player. The only strength ranking that we know for sure in the world as of now is Whitebeard.

Fox666
March 31, 2009, 10:02 PM
In my opinion that history "Mihawk > Shanks because he is the 'strongest swordmen'" is enough for a conclusion. One Piece generally grant massive titles (it is not like Bleach "I am just the number X because I hide my true power"...)

And Mihawk is a guy or honor, he won't accept that title because "Shanks give up"...

Phase
March 31, 2009, 11:35 PM
I'm not surprised Mihawk is so popular in this, but I want to play devil's advocate a bit. Yes, Mihawk is the strongest swordsman in the world, so what? Can you name a single other swordsman among the Shichibukai? I can't. That title is meaningless to the rest of them. Mihawk is a swordsman, Jimbei is a merman we know little about, and the rest are powerful DF users. As useful as Mihawk's haki undoubtedly is, I doubt it's stronger than the DF powers that most of them have. Why is being a great swordsman so much better than a logia fruit?

A lot of people like to bring up that Mihawk is Zoro's final opponent, which has been set up since quite early on. So when Zoro wins, and he's the strongest swordsman in the world, the pirate king's first mate, does that mean that he can defeat any other captain out there? I don't buy that one. I don't believe the pirate king is so powerful that he wouldn't even have to fight if a strong Shichibukai came knocking.

The reference about Shanks is certainly good, but let's think about that for a minute. The Yonkou are the 4 kings that rule over the new world. Shanks was not ruling over the new world when he was hanging out with Luffy in East Blue. Shanks likely earned Yonkou status after he left, 10 years before Luffy, already missing an arm, and never faught Mihawk in that time. Shanks' and Mihawk's duels are from the days when Shanks was a CABIN BOY on Roger's ship. Granted they likely still had duels in the years after.

The last point I want to bring up is the crew, the NAKAMA. Mihawk is the only Shichibukai with NO NAKAMA (except for Kuma maybe? we don't really know). Every fight he goes into he's gotta do solo. No other Shichibukai is going to do that. Even if you think he's the strongest individual, you should take the entire crews into account. This is One Piece after all, where nakama mean everything.

Gecko Moria
April 01, 2009, 02:32 AM
I'm not surprised Mihawk is so popular in this, but I want to play devil's advocate a bit. Yes, Mihawk is the strongest swordsman in the world, so what? Can you name a single other swordsman among the Shichibukai? I can't. That title is meaningless to the rest of them. Mihawk is a swordsman, Jimbei is a merman we know little about, and the rest are powerful DF users. As useful as Mihawk's haki undoubtedly is, I doubt it's stronger than the DF powers that most of them have. Why is being a great swordsman so much better than a logia fruit?

A lot of people like to bring up that Mihawk is Zoro's final opponent, which has been set up since quite early on. So when Zoro wins, and he's the strongest swordsman in the world, the pirate king's first mate, does that mean that he can defeat any other captain out there? I don't buy that one. I don't believe the pirate king is so powerful that he wouldn't even have to fight if a strong Shichibukai came knocking.

The reference about Shanks is certainly good, but let's think about that for a minute. The Yonkou are the 4 kings that rule over the new world. Shanks was not ruling over the new world when he was hanging out with Luffy in East Blue. Shanks likely earned Yonkou status after he left, 10 years before Luffy, already missing an arm, and never faught Mihawk in that time. Shanks' and Mihawk's duels are from the days when Shanks was a CABIN BOY on Roger's ship. Granted they likely still had duels in the years after.

The last point I want to bring up is the crew, the NAKAMA. Mihawk is the only Shichibukai with NO NAKAMA (except for Kuma maybe? we don't really know). Every fight he goes into he's gotta do solo. No other Shichibukai is going to do that. Even if you think he's the strongest individual, you should take the entire crews into account. This is One Piece after all, where nakama mean everything.

It's a fair point you make and Mihawk may not be able to take down a few of the DF users. However, I think people are making their decisions on overall ability. The thing about DF's are they usually have some crippling weakness (e.g. Eneru's fruit and rubber, Sand Sand fruit and water) while we have yet to see any such major weakness from Mihawk and his giant sword (even guns which you would expect to have the advantage over swords).

And in regards to nakama, yes they are important, but I think most people are taking into account only the Shichibukai and not their entire crew (which I think they should). But, we saw what Mihawk did to Don Krieg's entire crew so, against Mihawk, I'm assuming you need quality rather than quantity.

Metal D. Reaper
April 01, 2009, 08:25 AM
Soo first I think like I'd post before that Mihawk isn't the strongest shishibukai because like there was stated before it doesn't matter witch title you have.Just because they ahve a title doesn't mean that you really are.And I'm sure that Mihawk isn't the final oppponent of Zoro because they are certainely stronger swordsmen and stronger dudes then him in the New World.

BlackHair
April 01, 2009, 09:39 AM
Shichibukai are a balance against the 4emperors
3 admirals with logia plus shichibukai match emperors
That doesn't make any sense. Why do the admirals need the Shichi to be a match for the Yonko, if (according to ur first sentence) the Shichi are all alone already a match for the Yonko? I must have misinterpreted ur words, if that is the case, plz correct me.

Anyway, I support the idea: Yonko (crew) = Shichi (crew) = Marine HQ (only hq).
But the balance is crapped up anyway. I mean there are countless outlaws the Marine has to face, which are not included in the equality also Yonko (within) aren't working together and same goes for the Marine and Shichi relationship.


And I'm sure that Mihawk isn't the final oppponent of Zoro because they are certainely stronger swordsmen and stronger dudes then him in the New World. Seriously are we reading the same manga?


Mwk is labelled as the strongest swordsman, also he is acknowledged (by Zoro, Jeff) as the strongest.
We all know Zoro is going to be the strongest swordsman, so why should Oda let him focus on Mwk, if he isn't? Plz don't tell me Oda is building a twist.. .

There could be stronger dudes than Mwk (which I highly believe: BB, WB) in the NW, but none can beat him in swordsmanship.

Well anyway I voted Mihawk as the strongest. Because: Luffy is going to be the PK, I know he doesn't have to be the strongest, but since this is a shounen manga, Luffy will most likely end up as the strongest at the end of one piece. Now Zoro as one of the closest fighting power to Luffy will likely end up around the 2nd strongest in the world. Mihawk is said to be Zoro's final true foe, so he has to be the strongest after BB within the Shichi. Im only considering a 1vs1 fight, not the whole crew of each Shichibukai.

btw IMO Mwk > Shanks

Lord Rayleigh
April 01, 2009, 05:58 PM
Hawk Eyes Mihawk is always the best swordman in the world. I think it shows us how powerful he is. As this is Zoro's goal to surpass him, I guess this is a position that would put Mihawk as the best Shichibukai. I see the same process here as the one with Luffy surpassing WB. By his position of rival of the ex-PK, it means WB is the best pirate of OP.
Moreover, I think that Zoro will be at the end of OP at a close level to the one Rayleigh had when he was not so old. As we have seen, Rayleigh is able to fight against an Admiral. So, I think that the Zoro final opponent, Mihawk, will be at a close level to Zoro during their final fight. So, he will be near the Rayleigh level too.
And I don't think there are others Shichibukai at this kind of level.
Personnally, I don't think Jimbei could be better than Mihawk. Jimbei is a pirate who was at a close level to Ace and I don't think Jimbei has improved so much since this time : Jimbei is not always traveling as he was in the past as he is now staying at the Fishmen Island.

mugen
April 02, 2009, 05:43 AM
I should be writing my paper but whatever...*more rambling*
anyways I want to say this about Blackbeard!!!
Not to say all of the strong character so far have shown Haki but.. BUt!!
BB doesn't!! I mean doesn't Haki so far seem to negate DF powers. Also why does a "strong" character have to wait for 20 years to go out to sea? I just really don't like his design or his devil fruit power. Maybe it would have been cool if haki wasn't already here but now BB's power seems even lamer. Yeah ok he gave Shanks a scar but he was young back then. He's not the Shanks we really know! Just cuz BB has a D everyone seems to be on his **** though. Anyone want to argue. PLease do so

BetaRuler
April 02, 2009, 06:28 AM
This is obviously just a popularity thread too I think...

While Jimbei is probably the "strongest" simply being a fishman = having more strength, we don't know what else there is to him, so your basically gambling that he'll have some other awesome powers that'll obviously let him overcome the other Shichi if you vote for him.

In analysing I'd possibly claim Crocodile, Don, or Mihawk as the smartest,
while Mihawk is calm minded, he also has his passion as a swords man, his personality keeps him quite safe along with his reputation, so he wont suddenly get cocky and bite off more than he can chew.
Don's often smiling for age he's intent to build, his power seems very dangerous, and until we find out whether his power has a flaw or limit, (it might not even be revealed to be the kinda power we're expecting it to be, it might not be specifically the power to control people like puppets), we could sooner assume him to be one of the most dangerous of the lot, specially with his bounty being the highest (it is the highest even now isn't it?).
Crocodile prides himself on being smart, he usually knows his limits, and he can carefully plan how to overcome most problems and holds the patience to see it through, he also hired many strong henchmen, and even in his cell in impel down, after his plan to rule a kingdom is lost right now I don't think he's been truly beaten, his fruit alone makes him very powerful too, personally speaking, Crocodile is my favourite Shichi, he also reminds me of my fav villain of the series Captain Kuro, alot of the personalities seem to be reused from one villain into another imo anyway.
While Kuma's personality is a mystery, he is powerful too, and fast, hitting him seems to be a challenge right now.
Boa's powers don't seem to be fully revealed yet, I can't think of much to say for her.
Moria is quite strong, his mastery over shadows lets him do some pretty clever things, though he seems to become lazy, possibly due to his defeat against that Yonkou that makes him seem unwilling to fight properly on some occassions.

I reckon at the least some shichi are strong enough to fight yonkou's 1 on 1, but we've yet to even see how strong Yonkou's can really get...
I think I will just vote for Croc for now

deffkryz
April 02, 2009, 10:36 AM
Somehow, I'm missing the option to select "They all equal in strength somehow". Even with Teach as shichibukai I don't see anyone of them to stand out of this bunch as "The Strongest Shichibukai".

neomaster121
April 02, 2009, 11:40 AM
That doesn't make any sense. Why do the admirals need the Shichi to be a match for the Yonko, if (according to ur first sentence) the Shichi are all alone already a match for the Yonko? I must have misinterpreted ur words, if that is the case, plz correct me.

Anyway, I support the idea: Yonko (crew) = Shichi (crew) = Marine HQ (only hq).
But the balance is crapped up anyway. I mean there are countless outlaws the Marine has to face, which are not included in the equality also Yonko (within) aren't working together and same goes for the Marine and Shichi relationship.

Seriously are we reading the same manga?


Mwk is labelled as the strongest swordsman, also he is acknowledged (by Zoro, Jeff) as the strongest.
We all know Zoro is going to be the strongest swordsman, so why should Oda let him focus on Mwk, if he isn't? Plz don't tell me Oda is building a twist.. .

There could be stronger dudes than Mwk (which I highly believe: BB, WB) in the NW, but none can beat him in swordsmanship.

Well anyway I voted Mihawk as the strongest. Because: Luffy is going to be the PK, I know he doesn't have to be the strongest, but since this is a shounen manga, Luffy will most likely end up as the strongest at the end of one piece. Now Zoro as one of the closest fighting power to Luffy will likely end up around the 2nd strongest in the world. Mihawk is said to be Zoro's final true foe, so he has to be the strongest after BB within the Shichi. Im only considering a 1vs1 fight, not the whole crew of each Shichibukai.

btw IMO Mwk > Shanks


as u quoted i said th shichibukai are A as in 1 of not the only balancer
remember theres 3 powers
4 emperors
shichibukai and marine admirals together match the emperors

BetaRuler
April 02, 2009, 05:56 PM
Match the emperors AND their meant to handle all the normal other pirates,,, like Luffy and the Supernovas (supposedly)

Metal D. Reaper
April 03, 2009, 05:54 PM
Only WB attacked and already they summoned a great force also the Yonkou attacked each other and you can all agree that they said that a great match should be the whitebeard pirates vs the royal shishibukai soo we can assime that if only WB moved and alled that stuff immagine what happens if the 4 empoors bind forces and attacked together the World Gouvernement

Yans86
April 04, 2009, 04:44 PM
Mihawk,absolutely!!!!!
Luffy = Roger-Whitebeard (Pirate king,King of the seas)
Zoro = Mihawk/Shanks (Strongest swordman-shicibukai/yonkou,rivalry with mihawk.......maybe second strongest shichi,Luffy's objective)

bittman
April 05, 2009, 06:20 PM
Only WB attacked and already they summoned a great force also the Yonkou attacked each other and you can all agree that they said that a great match should be the whitebeard pirates vs the royal shishibukai soo we can assime that if only WB moved and alled that stuff immagine what happens if the 4 empoors bind forces and attacked together the World Gouvernement

Here's another Yonkou over-estimator.

Apparantly, when someone said "Kaidou and Moria fought as equals" you figured Moria then spent the next 5 - 15 years getting weaker whilst Kaidou got five times stronger?

People keep assuming the World Government NEEDS 3 admirals and 7 Shichibukai to take on Whitebeard when honestly, they probably only need the 3 admirals.

Why? Well let's say you're playing Red Alert 2, someone sends an army of ten tanks at you. Do you let whatever defences you already have take care of them hoping they dont break through, or do you go send something after it to make sure they're crushed with minimal damage to your base?

Also, fights aren't about power levels. Even if Whitebeard is the strongest man alive, and realistically the marines should be able to take the pirate crew down, fights cannot be 100% predicted.

The World Government also has a habit of using more power than is required (read: Ohara).

BlackHair
April 05, 2009, 09:51 PM
I completely agree with bittman, they know where WB is going to attack, so they will use every force they have to strengthen their defence and to crush WB with low loss, just like how u would do in strategy games. Also note, they first announced Ace's public execution, then they assembled the Shchi.

WB vs Shichi (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33799&page=10); Link 1 (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1139603&postcount=134); Link 2 (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1133096&postcount=120)

Now back to topic:

I think I will just vote for Croc for nowI have no intention of starting a discussion, but Luffy beat him without Gear's and haki. I know he had help (Robin) but still, his physical ability is rather low. Not to mention he was the first major opponent. Considering that this is a shounen manga, I don't think he is "strong".

Edit:

BTW: Who is "they"? The only one who'd be able to tell or show us right now is Eiichiro Oda.
I don't know if u r referring to my post, if yes, then I meant the "world government".

bittman
April 06, 2009, 12:53 AM
Now back to topic:
I have no intention of starting a discussion, but Luffy beat him without Gear's and haki. I know he had help (Robin) but still, his physical ability is rather low. Not to mention he was the first major opponent. Considering that this is a shounen manga, I don't think he is "strong".

Especially if we're talking pre-BB. I mean, Crocodile may escape Impel Down and make an awesome comeback later in the manga, but at the stage the manga was at "pre-BB", Crocodile was most likely the weakest, or one of the weakest.

Crocodile was an awesome planner though, I miss him. No-one else has had a plan as awesome as his yet, I hope Doflamingo makes me happy.

Shadoguardian
April 06, 2009, 07:07 PM
I'm willing to bet it's Mihawk. They haven't shown his former bounty yet. Why? because it is so huge that htey didn't want to shock us so early in the series with how immensely strong this guy was considered.

deffkryz
April 06, 2009, 09:22 PM
I'm willing to bet it's Mihawk. They haven't shown his former bounty yet. Why? because it is so huge that htey didn't want to shock us so early in the series with how immensely strong this guy was considered.

Once again: The bounty does neither indicate the power level nor physical strength nor any relation to abilities.

Blackbeard had a bounty of 0 beri when he crushed Ace and became shichibukai - and usually a shichibukai's bounty is nullified after he/she achieved this position.

I think we have to wait until Whitebeard attacks with his fleet and all his and their force...

BTW: Who is "they"? The only one who'd be able to tell or show us right now is Eiichiro Oda.

Razh
April 07, 2009, 07:09 AM
Once again: The bounty does neither indicate the power level nor physical strength nor any relation to abilities.


Bounties do usually indicate someone's strength. So far, the bounties were underestimate when they were wrong. When someone has a huge bounty it usually means that the person is really strong.
It's possible to have 0 bounty and be a monster, but it isn't really possible to be a weakling with the bounty of 300 million.

There are probably isolated cases like with Robin. Some persons may be a threat just for their knowledge of something. WG wanted to get rid of Robin fast and that is the only reason for such a high bounty.

As far as the Shichibukai bounties are concerned, they don't mean anything any more. The difference in bounties doesn't equate to the difference in strength.

Having said what I had, I think Kuma is the strongest now. His strenght and resilience combined with the awesome and perfected DF ability and Kizaru's laser makes him a versatile combatant. Until we see if Doflamingo, Mihawk, Jinbei or Hancock can do more than that, I'll stick with it.

EDIT: Also, I resent the assumption that Blackbeard is the strongest Shichibukai now. Is that the reason why he's left out of the poll?
Blackbeard is strong but you can hardly conclude that he's the strongest. His power is strong and cool and all. But he can be hurt really easy. The guy still has a long way to go to be the unbeatable monster that some people here make him look.

hot_chips
April 07, 2009, 11:29 PM
I don't know why everyone seems to think Mihawk is stronger than Shanks. We know that Mihawk is the strongest swordsmen in the world, but Shanks could have other abilities besides high quality swordsmanship and only fought against Mihawk with swords. You can't gain the title of Yonkou by relying on one ability can you?

I'd like to put out there that i think Crocodile although revoked of his Shichibukai status would be quite powerful but maybe not the strongest, just under the circumstances he was in when Luffy decided to use his blood and possibly bleed to death allowed him to win.

Phase
April 07, 2009, 11:48 PM
EDIT: Also, I resent the assumption that Blackbeard is the strongest Shichibukai now. Is that the reason why he's left out of the poll?
Blackbeard is strong but you can hardly conclude that he's the strongest. His power is strong and cool and all. But he can be hurt really easy. The guy still has a long way to go to be the unbeatable monster that some people here make him look.

I left him out because I thought he'd get the majority of the vote. So I thought going with the old cast would be more interesting. If I had realized at the time that Mihawk would get so much of the vote, I would have happily included BB in it as well. It's too late to go back and change it now.

RichardMNixon
April 07, 2009, 11:52 PM
From what we've seen so far Doflamingo's power actually seems kind of weak as the enemy is able to fight against it to some extent, making their movements jerky and slow. It did occur to me though that the manga may not have conveyed speed well and this may not have been Oda's intention. It would also of course be in an entirely different league if he could control several or dozens of people.

kkck
April 08, 2009, 12:36 AM
Bounties do usually indicate someone's strength. So far, the bounties were underestimate when they were wrong. When someone has a huge bounty it usually means that the person is really strong.
It's possible to have 0 bounty and be a monster, but it isn't really possible to be a weakling with the bounty of 300 million.

There are probably isolated cases like with Robin. Some persons may be a threat just for their knowledge of something. WG wanted to get rid of Robin fast and that is the only reason for such a high bounty.

As far as the Shichibukai bounties are concerned, they don't mean anything any more. The difference in bounties doesn't equate to the difference in strength.




Well, oda himself said bounties don't reflect strength in one of the SBS. Bounties represent the threat level an individual poses to the world government. Take robin for example. She has an 80mil bounty but I doubt she can take brook, franky or sanji in combat and all of them have significantly smaller bounties. Being strong can contribute to a bounty but saying bounties represent strength would be inappropriate.

Gecko Moria
April 08, 2009, 02:54 AM
Bounties do usually indicate someone's strength. So far, the bounties were underestimate when they were wrong. When someone has a huge bounty it usually means that the person is really strong.
It's possible to have 0 bounty and be a monster, but it isn't really possible to be a weakling with the bounty of 300 million.

There are probably isolated cases like with Robin. Some persons may be a threat just for their knowledge of something. WG wanted to get rid of Robin fast and that is the only reason for such a high bounty.

As far as the Shichibukai bounties are concerned, they don't mean anything any more. The difference in bounties doesn't equate to the difference in strength.

Having said what I had, I think Kuma is the strongest now. His strenght and resilience combined with the awesome and perfected DF ability and Kizaru's laser makes him a versatile combatant. Until we see if Doflamingo, Mihawk, Jinbei or Hancock can do more than that, I'll stick with it.

EDIT: Also, I resent the assumption that Blackbeard is the strongest Shichibukai now. Is that the reason why he's left out of the poll?
Blackbeard is strong but you can hardly conclude that he's the strongest. His power is strong and cool and all. But he can be hurt really easy. The guy still has a long way to go to be the unbeatable monster that some people here make him look.


Well, oda himself said bounties don't reflect strength in one of the SBS. Bounties represent the threat level an individual poses to the world government. Take robin for example. She has an 80mil bounty but I doubt she can take brook, franky or sanji in combat and all of them have significantly smaller bounties. Being strong can contribute to a bounty but saying bounties represent strength would be inappropriate.

Definitely. As stated earlier, the overall power of an individual can not be gauged simply from their bounty, though it is possible to get a rough estimate of their capabilities.

In addition, I also am not a supporter of the fact that Blackbeard is the strongest Shichibukai. As I have mentioned before, all the Shichibukai have strengths and weaknesses. While Blackbeard is indeed strong, how would he fare against the deadly sword of Mihawk? Or Moria's shadow powers?

Metal D. Reaper
April 08, 2009, 03:48 AM
Think about it the WG will need the 3 admirals and the shishi to defeat WB because as we know he is the strongest man in the world as mentioned in the manga he has different fleets with leaders of great force like ace soo the leaders should be at the force of a shishibai and also the majority of the shishi don't control their power to the fullest like Hancock or blackbeard soo that may mean that they could be stronger and as we know it is WB who is strong enough to take on Gold Roger 'the pirate king' also we can state that WB is already a old pirate I mean that he is already long at work as a pirate that means that he defently control his power too the fullest and he also should be able to control haki to the fullest he should be on the sea for let say 50 years because Brook said that there was a rookie named Gold Roger while he wasn't killed with his crew soo we can assume that WB is also that age.Soo I think that the strongest shishi is .... I am going to change my early vote of Jimbei because of the past facts soo the strongest shishi is I think the one and only Kuma because he is I think one of the shishi who controls best their power even if BB is strong it doesn't mean that he can control his power too the fullest like lots of pirates I think he don't also Luffy doesn't control his

Gecko Moria
April 08, 2009, 05:03 AM
Think about it the WG will need the 3 admirals and the shishi to defeat WB because as we know he is the strongest man in the world as mentioned in the manga he has different fleets with leaders of great force like ace soo the leaders should be at the force of a shishibai and also the majority of the shishi don't control their power to the fullest like Hancock or blackbeard soo that may mean that they could be stronger and as we know it is WB who is strong enough to take on Gold Roger 'the pirate king' also we can state that WB is already a old pirate I mean that he is already long at work as a pirate that means that he defently control his power too the fullest and he also should be able to control haki to the fullest he should be on the sea for let say 50 years because Brook said that there was a rookie named Gold Roger while he wasn't killed with his crew soo we can assume that WB is also that age.Soo I think that the strongest shishi is .... I am going to change my early vote of Jimbei because of the past facts soo the strongest shishi is I think the one and only Kuma because he is I think one of the shishi who controls best their power even if BB is strong it doesn't mean that he can control his power too the fullest like lots of pirates I think he don't also Luffy doesn't control his

The Shichibukai are some of the strongest pirates on the seas, I don't think all of Whitebeard's fleet leaders would be at Shichibukai level. If they were that strong why would they work under Whitebeard?

And what is the reasoning behind your statement that Hancock and Blackbeard can not control their power fully? To my knowledge, I haven't seen them screw up because they haven't attained full mastery of their powers. I believe that no-one in OP has mastered haki, not even Whitebeard (it's just one of those things you can't master, like love :P)

However, there is no denying that Kuma seems to know how to contorl his powers, so I have no objections with your point there.

PS: Please use some punctuation for God's sake, your replies are nearly impossible to understand.

Phase
April 08, 2009, 11:59 AM
Since the other poll got dominated by Mihawk, I think people started complaining. I didn't include BB last time because I thought he'd win the majority of the vote. There are lots of Mihawk fans out there though, so I think that even if he does clean up, it wont be as bad as the other poll.

So with that said, who is the strongest among all the Shichibukai? I'll include both BB and Croc, so there are 8 choices.

I removed Crocodile, so as to avoid this thread becoming too much like the other one. That one is for the old Shichibukai, this one is for the new Shichibukai, and each poll has only 7 options. I think that's more balanced.

kkck
April 08, 2009, 12:51 PM
Definitely. As stated earlier, the overall power of an individual can not be gauged simply from their bounty, though it is possible to get a rough estimate of their capabilities.

In addition, I also am not a supporter of the fact that Blackbeard is the strongest Shichibukai. As I have mentioned before, all the Shichibukai have strengths and weaknesses. While Blackbeard is indeed strong, how would he fare against the deadly sword of Mihawk? Or Moria's shadow powers?

Well, BB did manage to wound shanks and I read somewhere it was even before he had his DF. Not to mention he was a pirate for several decades in WB ships, he must have survived several fights with powerful pirates. Actually, I think BB would defeat moria easily. I could see BB sucking moria in and beating him to a pulp with his bare fists. I also wouldn't be surprised if BB is actually able to use haki and combine that with his DF< that would make him incredibly powerful lol. In any case, he at least knows of haki, I think he mentioned something like that in his first encounter with luffy.

BlackHair
April 08, 2009, 02:26 PM
BB! He was on WB's ship for decades, which makes me believe he is in his prime, unlike Luffy who still has to grow in strenght. Since Oda is building him up like the final villain, I think he is the strongest among the Shichi.

Razh
April 08, 2009, 02:39 PM
I think Blackbeard still has a long way to go. Being in Whitebeard's crew so long and having no bounty at all means that he didn't have a lot of serious fights during that time.
There's always room for progress and if he was that strong he wouldn't need the WG protection.
That's not to say that he won't progress with time.

As far as I'm concerned Kuma showed more than any other Shichibukai so far.
Until we see something better from others...

kkck
April 08, 2009, 02:56 PM
I think Blackbeard still has a long way to go. Being in Whitebeard's crew so long and having no bounty at all means that he didn't have a lot of serious fights during that time.
There's always room for progress and if he was that strong he wouldn't need the WG protection.
That's not to say that he won't progress with time.

As far as I'm concerned Kuma showed more than any other Shichibukai so far.
Until we see something better from others...

But not getting a bounty or staying in the background was something BB did on purpose though.
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/434/12/
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/440/17/
BB just wanted to get that fruit and them get notorious. If he didn't find it by chance, he would have stayed in the background without ever doing anything.

Razh
April 08, 2009, 03:07 PM
Yes, I know it was his choice, but to stay under the radar he had to pay the price.
He probably avoided a lot of serious opponents to escape the WG scope and not receive any bounty.
But that was his choice, and he probably figured it was worth it.

I just wanted to say that him being a Whitebeard pirate for so long doesn't automatically make him super strong. The fact that he has no bounty means that he avoided a lot of fights.

Phase
April 08, 2009, 03:11 PM
I just wanted to say that him being a Whitebeard pirate for so long doesn't automatically make him super strong. The fact that he has no bounty means that he avoided a lot of fights.

This is true, look at all the pansies on WB's crew that passed out when Shanks walked by.

BlackHair
April 08, 2009, 03:55 PM
This thread is about the internal ranking of the Shichibukai, thus I would rather avoid a WB vs BB discussion, since it is one of those "endless discussions", well anyway: I believe WB is the strongest in the world right now. Close behind him BB as the strongest Shichi. After the War WB will fall (don't necessarily have to die, but he will lose in some way of strenght). That's when BB will take his place as the #1 in the world, 'till he gets replaced by Luffy.



I think Blackbeard still has a long way to go. Being in Whitebeard's crew so long and having no bounty at all means that he didn't have a lot of serious fights during that time.
I just wanted to say that him being a Whitebeard pirate for so long doesn't automatically make him super strong. The fact that he has no bounty means that he avoided a lot of fights.U are forgetting that BB was under WB' commando for those decades, also he didn't take the position of a division captain. If a pirate crew fights, then it's always the captain and high ranking officers (first-mate, division captains) who gets credits by the government for the damage the crew caused.

Example: SH's vs Baroque Mafia: Only the captain (Luffy) and the first mate (Zoro) got a bounty. So concluding that BB didn't had any serious fights, just because he didn't had a bounty is big mistake. There is a reason, why Shanks talked about his scar and his past encounter with BB.


There's always room for progress and if he was that strong he wouldn't need the WG protection. I believe every single Shichi would hide behind or next to the WG if it's about fighting WB. Bittman (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1139603&postcount=134) put WB' influence and power perfectly in words. I rly advise ppl to read that.


This is true, look at all the pansies on WB's crew that passed out when Shanks walked by.Are u putting cannon fodder equal to BB?

Phase
April 08, 2009, 04:07 PM
Are u putting cannon fodder equal to BB?

Of course not. I'm simply agreeing that being a part of WB's crew is no measure of strength. Being a commander is, but being a crewmember isn't. BB is one of the strongest pirates in the world, no doubt about that. Several of the Shichibukai are in that elite class I'd assume.

Razh
April 08, 2009, 04:14 PM
I'm not forgetting anything. You can't make me think differently by repeating what I already know.

Fact is, Blackbeard wanted to stay hidden. Thus, he probably had to avoid a lot of situations in which he could have gotten a bounty. That means he rarely fought with really strong opponents.

He's just that kind of a guy. He knew he would have to pay the price of being hidden under WB, just like he knew the drawback of Dark fruit, and still ate it.

I fail to see how is Blackbeard currently the strongest Shichibukai. Just because of that foreshadowing crap. Doesn't automatically make him the strongest.
Kuma was able to beat all of the Strawhats alone. I can't see Blackbeard doing the same, especially since he's so vulnerable to physical attacks.
And Kuma has a severely hardened body, superhuman strenght, awesome DF abillity and can shoot lasers.

BlackHair
April 08, 2009, 05:27 PM
I think Kuma is overrated: Zoro managed to hurt his body, even though he was worn out (TB). He also didn't beat the SH's alone, they were worn out from fighting the PX, also there was a Admiral and a stupid Axt guy around. While BB, who beat WB's elite subordinate and a world acknowledged powerful fighter (almost) one-sided. IMO beating Ace is better footage than beating a worn out pirate crew, who are nowhere Ace power lvl (yet).

Plz don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying Kuma is weak, he is certainly one of the big guys around.

About the bounty, you get only a raise where the WG was in anyway involved. So if pirates (Yonko vs Yonko) fights each other, there won't be any raise. Just because u want to stay hidden, doesn't mean u can't go all out and fight strong guys. We are talking about a crew of 1600 men, we don't know how chaotic a battle of this size can be. I'm just saying by serving for decades for WB, BB must have gained enough experience, knowledge and power even if he was behind the shadows. Without proper experience and raw brutal strenght, he wouldn't have beaten Ace in the first place.

Anyway, that doesn't matter right now, since we are talking about the present, not the past. The current BB beat down Ace and got acknowledged by the WG. Considering BB' age (late 30s), I rly think he is in his prime, without room to grow, just my impression of BB. Adding his role in the manga, I do think he is the strongest among the Shichi, even if we didn't saw the other guys in action.


I'm not forgetting anything. You can't make me think differently by repeating what I already know. I had no intention to anger you, but how should I know what u already know if u don't write them out.

Forever_Melody
April 08, 2009, 05:30 PM
Blackbeard seems to be a decent fighter though as he was able to give Shanks that scar(pre-devil fruit too) and Shanks is implied to be quite strong :s(at least, I assume his Yonkou title isn't for his neat hair color :XD)

hard to say though with half of the Shichibukai not shown in full blown battle yet though.

Razh
April 08, 2009, 05:39 PM
I had no intention to anger you, but how should I know what u already know if u don't write them out.

I wasn't angry. Sorry if it came out that way.

Yeah, I know Strawhats were half dead on both occasions. But Kuma was hardly all out against them. And even if they are perfectly fine, I still see Kuma faring much better against them than Blackbeard.
It's just that he has a tricky DF.

Phase
April 08, 2009, 06:01 PM
Anyway, that doesn't matter right now, since we are talking about the present, not the past. The current BB beat down Ace and got acknowledged by the WG. Considering BB' age (late 30s), I rly think he is in his prime, without room to grow, just my impression of BB. Adding his role in the manga, I do think he is the strongest among the Shichi, even if we didn't saw the other guys in action.


I think you're only half right about this. I think physically he's in top form and wont really improve, and he's world class in that regard. But there's no way that he's mastered his DF powers this quickly. He should definitely have room to grow in that area.

bittman
April 08, 2009, 06:28 PM
Blackbeard, for all the reasons I've already stated in my essay here: http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1189119&postcount=49

For reference, on the "he hasn't mastered his DF yet...blah blah blah...so he's not the strongest", you may be right, but I propose that his battle with Ace let him fine tune his ability and get some experience with it against a real combatant.

Besides, Shanks doesn't have those three scars on his eye from a fight with Mihawk.

And on Kuma: he only appears to be the strongest because he has had two dominating victories over the Strawhats. I do believe he is one of the strongest, but given his early build up I feel he is the next Shichibukai to be defeated, and thus the current build up was required.

Gecko Moria
April 08, 2009, 08:07 PM
Mixed results. I believe that all the Shichibukai have their strengths and weaknesses, therefore, from my view-point: they are equal in strength. Though it actually depends what the word "strongest" implies here...in terms of physical strength it has to be between Blackbeard or Kuma, but how would that strength fare against Doflamingo's "puppetry"? Or Mihawk's deadly blade?

Phase
April 08, 2009, 08:22 PM
Mixed results. I believe that all the Shichibukai have their strengths and weaknesses, therefore, from my view-point: they are equal in strength. Though it actually depends what the word "strongest" implies here...in terms of physical strength it has to be between Blackbeard or Kuma, but how would that strength fare against Doflamingo's "puppetry"? Or Mihawk's deadly blade?

You should rate it on whatever makes a pirate captain strong in your opinion. For most people it will be a combination of several things.

Gecko Moria
April 08, 2009, 08:42 PM
Well, BB did manage to wound shanks and I read somewhere it was even before he had his DF. Not to mention he was a pirate for several decades in WB ships, he must have survived several fights with powerful pirates. Actually, I think BB would defeat moria easily. I could see BB sucking moria in and beating him to a pulp with his bare fists. I also wouldn't be surprised if BB is actually able to use haki and combine that with his DF< that would make him incredibly powerful lol. In any case, he at least knows of haki, I think he mentioned something like that in his first encounter with luffy.

I'm not saying Blackbeard is weak (in fact, he's very strong). I merely implied that despite being so powerful he still has his weaknesses. For example, unlike other logia fruit users, he can't phase through attacks (though this is mostly offset by his incredible endurance). Besides, I'm assuming that Mihawk is stronger than Shanks now? At least physically anyway...so he would be able to do way more damage to Blackbeard.

Also if Blackbeard tried to draw Moria in, Moria would switch places with his shadow and then get the shadow to fight for him. Even Blackbeard's tremendous strength can't damage a shadow.

BlackHair
April 08, 2009, 09:17 PM
I always interpret "strongest" (strong) as the one, who would win a fight. I voted for BB, coz I think he could beat any other Shichibukai in a fair 1vs1 fight, with their preferred fighting style.

So basically it sums up all factors like: experience, weapon (DF), speed, brutal strenght etc. The one with the best rates in these factors is the strongest.

Phase
April 08, 2009, 09:44 PM
For me, I like to include nakama in the discussion. In One Piece, a pirate captain is as strong as his crew. Going against WB, for example, means to go against his 1600 pirate army. But that's my personal opinion on gauging the strength of a pirate captain, and I don't expect everyone to share that viewpoint. Everyone should vote based on their own beliefs.

Food for thought, BB is probably the only Shichibukai who would stand no chance against Magellan.

bittman
April 08, 2009, 10:21 PM
Well, everytime we get into a "strongest" conversation, I don't just look at fighting ability. Because, honestly, Enel is still the "strongest" we've seen.

In fact, when most people talk "strongest", they inherently include reputation and hypotheses about how they would fight with that power.

When I rate strongest, I look to the future rather than the now. As I said, out of what we have seen currently, Enel is the strongest because we've seen the limit of his potential. Aokoji, Kizaru, Blackbeard, Kuma and Rayleigh, though we've seen in battle, we have not seen everything they are capable of and thus rating their strength with fact alone is near impossible.

It's kinda like having this poll after Mihawk was introduced back in the East Blue, and arguing that Shanks is the strongest because he appeared in chapter 1 and plot should inherently make him stronger.

bittman
April 08, 2009, 10:32 PM
@Gecko Moria: As I said in another thread, I believe Ace's battle against Blackbeard was a test for Blackbeard. People keep saying things about "Blackbeard can't take <insertname> attack", but if I point to the enormous orb of fire Ace produced, point to Blackbeard's enormous darkness output and that he came out the victor where a lesser man would be incinerated, there is no counter argument.

If Blackbeard truly takes "all" attacks with possibly more damage, he just withstood something which could destroy an island.
If Blackbeard absorbed the attack, he can surely absorb any attack.
If Blackbeard matched the power of the attack, he can also destroy an island with energy output.

On the Moria question: can you make a shadow if Blackbeard covers the ground with his darkness? Still, would be a fight I'd love to see, but probably never will.

Mihawk v Blackbeard though: even I would not dare guess the outcome. I may sprout Blackbeard is the strongest, but there is a ton Mihawk can do that we probably cannot even fathom at the moment. If his Devil Fruit is highly important, Blackbeard might have an edge, but if Mihawk's Devil Fruit is something he turns on and off, it would be hard to tell.

Swordsman are always hard to predict in this manga actually. Half the things Zoro does are so freaking badass that you wonder who, outside of logia's, can actually counter them. And then you see Luffy catch a blade in his sandal when they fought in Whisky Peak. ~_~

Gecko Moria
April 08, 2009, 10:44 PM
@Gecko Moria: As I said in another thread, I believe Ace's battle against Blackbeard was a test for Blackbeard. People keep saying things about "Blackbeard can't take <insertname> attack", but if I point to the enormous orb of fire Ace produced, point to Blackbeard's enormous darkness output and that he came out the victor where a lesser man would be incinerated, there is no counter argument.

If Blackbeard truly takes "all" attacks with possibly more damage, he just withstood something which could destroy an island.
If Blackbeard absorbed the attack, he can surely absorb any attack.
If Blackbeard matched the power of the attack, he can also destroy an island with energy output.

On the Moria question: can you make a shadow if Blackbeard covers the ground with his darkness? Still, would be a fight I'd love to see, but probably never will.

Mihawk v Blackbeard though: even I would not dare guess the outcome. I may sprout Blackbeard is the strongest, but there is a ton Mihawk can do that we probably cannot even fathom at the moment. If his Devil Fruit is highly important, Blackbeard might have an edge, but if Mihawk's Devil Fruit is something he turns on and off, it would be hard to tell.

Swordsman are always hard to predict in this manga actually. Half the things Zoro does are so freaking badass that you wonder who, outside of logia's, can actually counter them. And then you see Luffy catch a blade in his sandal when they fought in Whisky Peak. ~_~

I've never said "Blackbeard can't take <insertname> attack". I only stated that he is not able to let attacks go through him like other logias.

And I don't think he absorbed Ace's massive fire ball, he deflected it with his own darkness attack. It was shown that he was hurt by some of Ace's smaller scale attacks so he could not have taken the last one head-on.

But I agree that swordsman are hard to predict in One Piece, especially Mihawk since we haven't yet seen what he can do in a real fight. What makes you think Mihawk has a Devil Fruit?

Lord Rayleigh
April 09, 2009, 02:40 AM
Besides, Shanks doesn't have those three scars on his eye from a fight with Mihawk.

This scar can show that BB is strong but do not forget that it was done before Shanks was a great pirate : it was before he even meet Luffy.

Rayleigh told us that ten years ago, Shanks was on the Shabondy Islands on his own adventure : it was his coming back on the NW. So, it shows us that it was a long time ago he was on the NW : we can be sure that since the Gold Roger's execution in Logue Town, he has not been in the NW.

As I think the WB pirates stayed in the NW after the Gold Roger pirates spilt up, the scar must have been done when BB and Shanks were both under WB and Gold Roger's commandments.

But, people have to think about the fact that Shanks was only an apprentice with Buggy on the PK'ship. You have to remember how they were acting on the PK'ship : both them were kids, they were saying that they will cut WB's beard, trying to provoke him : they were both the novices of the crew.

So, they were not the best nakamas the PK had even if they must have gained experience during the travel.
And we could add that they did not gain so much experience during the travel as Buggy and Shanks were rivals under Roger's commandment. I mean as we have seen the level Buggy had at the beginning of the manga, and as I think Buggy did not become less strong than before, I guess Shanks were not so strong as the end of his piracy as a Roger's pirate. It is after that he became really strong, especially with the rivalcy with Mihawk : I guess it happened during the time between Gold Roger died and Shanks met Luffy : according to the " La Volonté du D ", a very good frenchsite about the OP Universe, it is a blank of 11-12 years of piracy of Shanks, as he decided to become a pirate captain just after Gold Roger's death.

And I think it would not have been so difficult for BB during the Roger's era to injure Shanks who must have been to a similar level to Buggy who was at a similar or even less level to the one he has got on the beginning of the manga.

So, it was when BB and Shanks were both novice under their Captain's banner when BB injured Shanks. So, you cannot use that to proove that he is super strong : Shanks has become stronger and stronger since this time : WB has said that he has really grown since when he was under Gold Roger's commandment.
And he has better grown than BB for the moment. BB is only beginning his grown (which happens when he obtained his DF) whereas Shanks has already well done his one and his a Yonkou.

And do not forget that he just injured him a little, he did not defeat him or killed him in the battle between the two crews. Otherwise, Shanks would have said it.

So, I just think that the fact he injured Shanks at this time is not a proof. The only important think is that this scar has begun to make suffer Shanks recently.

And for BB, as I said, he is beginning his growth, and just became Shichibukai. Some of the current others Shichibukai have a lot of experience and should be stronger than him.
For me, Mihawk and Kuma are at present stronger than BB. I do not know about Jimbei, neither Hancock, neither Doflamingo because we have not seen some great use of their abilities/strenght. Moria is obviously not.

Razh
April 09, 2009, 01:58 PM
What? Now the black holes aren't sucking in everything any more?

Ace tried to fry Blackbeard and his darkness absorbed everything. That clash on the panel was one moment. In the next, darkness started sucking in the fire.
If Blackbeard had took that fireball he would be burned to a crisp. Just like anybody else.



And then you see Luffy catch a blade in his sandal when they fought in Whisky Peak. ~_~

Luffy was holding Zoro's hands with his own. Zoro didn't have enough momentum to slash through those. And it's also possible that sandal was on a flat edge. Hard to tell in manga.

Franckie
April 09, 2009, 03:49 PM
Blackbeard
Mihawk
Everyone Else

Reenie
April 09, 2009, 09:22 PM
Moria needs a pity vote lol

Metal D. Reaper
April 10, 2009, 03:56 AM
First BB doesn't control his power too the finest because he doesn't have it soo much time.Because Ace went directly after him after BB killed his squad capitain.And for the power of Hancock she said it herself that she doesn't control her Haki.Plus because WB is the longest on the sea can maybe mean that he is the best to control his Haki.
Plus like prevesiouly said that you can't predict if Mihawk has a DF if soo that would make him Superstrong and he could be a Emporor of the New World but he isn't.Soo that means that Mihawk isn't strong enough to be one.

Gecko Moria
April 10, 2009, 04:36 AM
First BB doesn't control his power too the finest because he doesn't have it soo much time.Because Ace went directly after him after BB killed his squad capitain.

Blackbeard can't control his power well? Have a look at his battle against Ace, I think he controlled his powers pretty well there...:eyeroll


And for the power of Hancock she said it herself that she doesn't control her Haki.Plus because WB is the longest on the sea can maybe mean that he is the best to control his Haki.

While I agree Whitebeard is most likely a master of haki since he has been around for so long, I don't remember Hancock saying she couldn't control haki. Could you find it the page?


Plus like prevesiouly said that you can't predict if Mihawk has a DF if soo that would make him Superstrong and he could be a Emporor of the New World but he isn't.Soo that means that Mihawk isn't strong enough to be one.

Mihawk enjoys his position as a Shichibukai (no bounty on his head). He already has a title of being the "World's Strongest Swordsman" why would he trade his perfectly fine Shichibukai title for Yonkou?

PS: Thanks for adding some punctuation.Your post is way more understandable now :amuse

Gecko Moria
April 10, 2009, 04:40 AM
You should rate it on whatever makes a pirate captain strong in your opinion. For most people it will be a combination of several things.

Very well. I stand by my opinion that they are equal since they all excel in different areas.


Blackbeard
Mihawk
Everyone Else

A brief summary of what I was going to say...:D


Moria needs a pity vote lol

Done :XD

BlackHair
April 10, 2009, 05:10 AM
I think BB had enough time to get a grasp of his powers. He had way more time than Kaku and Kalifa before their fights, yet those two, especially Kalifa had a good control over her new gained ability. So why is BB a exception?

btw What makes a Yonko so overwhelming powerful? Obviously his/her crew. Mwk travels all alone, just coz he isn't a Yonko doesn't make him weaker, in fact I believe he is stronger than Shanks. Anyway he is clearly on Yonko/Admiral fighting lvl.

Phase
April 10, 2009, 09:48 AM
While I agree Whitebeard is most likely a master of haki since he has been around for so long, I don't remember Hancock saying she couldn't control haki. Could you find it the page?


http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/519/19/

I've heard mentions that it's actually a mistranslation and supposed to read "but he hasn't mastered it yet" but I have no idea if that's true or not.

kkck
April 10, 2009, 01:17 PM
^it is a mistranslation....

First BB doesn't control his power too the finest because he doesn't have it soo much time.Because Ace went directly after him after BB killed his squad capitain.And for the power of Hancock she said it herself that she doesn't control her Haki.Plus because WB is the longest on the sea can maybe mean that he is the best to control his Haki.
Plus like prevesiouly said that you can't predict if Mihawk has a DF if soo that would make him Superstrong and he could be a Emporor of the New World but he isn't.Soo that means that Mihawk isn't strong enough to be one.

I think your logic is flawed in more than a few ways lol. We don't now exactly for how long BB has had his power or ace followed him. For all we know ace was following BB even before the story itself started, that could mean ace has been following BB for over a year. Not to mention BB new exactly what fruit he was looking for, he knew what it was capable of even before he got it; something like that certainly helps in mastering his power. In any case, we have no facts to actually back up the theory that BB hasn't mastered his power...

Also, for the the mihawk thing.... How do you know mihawk even wants to be an emperor? Just being as strong as an emperor doesnt mean you have to be one. We know for a fact that the only reason he doesn't fight shanks anymore is because shanks lost an arm. In any case, mihawk isn't just one of those silver medallist which the WG keeps by the dozen in level 6.

Phase
April 10, 2009, 03:11 PM
I personally think it's impossible to be an emperor without a crew. That's just me though.

Razh
April 11, 2009, 07:19 AM
Also, why is Blackbeard being discussed about so passionately in a discussion that has very little to do with him?

d3death
April 11, 2009, 07:29 AM
so hawkeyes seams most strongest.

and moria weakest.. not even a single vote for him...

kkck
April 11, 2009, 05:57 PM
I think mihawk is the strongest but not to the point where most of the others shichibukai wouldn't even put up a fight. The only shichubikai who I think wouldn't even put up a fight against him are crocodile, moria and probably flamingo(for some reason In don't hold him in high regard). On the other hand I could see hancock, jimbei and kuma put up a decent fight.

BlindMunkey
April 11, 2009, 09:17 PM
im going with Jimbei. 2 reasons.
1. Not a Devil Fruit User
2. i want him joining the StrawhatCrew. i think he would fit in just fine.i would love to see it. im sure hez gonna be team tagging with luffy against the WG.

RichardMNixon
April 12, 2009, 11:35 AM
Well, everytime we get into a "strongest" conversation, I don't just look at fighting ability. Because, honestly, Enel is still the "strongest" we've seen.


I don't see Enel being any stronger than Ace. His DF is probably a little better but I would certainly bet he isn't at Ace's level physically. I'm pretty confident that Blackbeard could take Enel, perhpas Kuma as well. Really it depends on precisely how common it is for people to be able to hit logia users like Rayleigh did. If Mihawk can do that then I'm pretty sure he could take Enel as well.

Enel actually said that once Luffy was gone that no one else in the world could stand up to him. Luffy told him he was an idiot and that the blue sea had loads of guys stronger than Enel, or something like that.

Really BB's DF seems overrated to me, but he himself is a monster. He has the D, and aside from the pain he seemed pretty much unaffected by Ace's attacks.

What I want to see now though is how strong his crew is. I'm really curious about Burgess and Doc Q.

Found the convesation I referred to

Enel: With you restrained I am once again supreme! No other mortal in the world will be able to defeat me!
Luffy: In the world?! Are you an idiot? There are loads of guys who could beat you. There are more monstrous guys in the ocean below than you can imagine. Someone like you would -

Razh
April 12, 2009, 11:53 AM
Luffy never sailed through the entire world. And it doesn't automatically mean that Ace or Blackbeard are stronger than Enel.

Enel is strong and intelligent and he can read people's thoughts. His DF gives him massive attack power, super speed and intangibility. And he can also manipulate some metals.
Blackbeard can be strong but he can't help being struck by a lightning in a blink of an eye. And after that, there isn't that much he can do.
Don't you think that it was convenient that Enel left for the Moon.

And I'm pretty sure Blackbeard couldn't win against Kuma. Even if Blackbeard manages to negate Kuma's power, what would he really negate?
Kuma still has a superhuman strenght, nearly unbreakable body and he can shoot lasers. Not to mention that he's also a lot bigger than Blackbeard, lol.

RichardMNixon
April 12, 2009, 12:29 PM
Moria had superhuman strength, a teleport swap with a completely unbreakable body, split an island in half, and became a lot bigger than Kuma. He didn't seem particularly impressed or scared of Kuma either.

Is being struck by lightning any worse than getting incinerated by a ball of fire the size of a battleship? Which do you feel more confident in surviving: grabbing a live wire or dousing yourself in gasoline and lighting yourself on fire?

In real life I would certainly say real matchups and observation are key; you could watch two boxers box and make a reasonable choice as to which boxer is better.
In a shonen though with such widely variant strengths I think foreshadowing is much more important than people give it credit for, and between Shanks concern, BB's fight against Ace, and the will of D, Blackbeard is definitely a solid pick for topping the chart.

Edit: As an example, if we were to not accept Oda's buildup of characters and only go by observation, it would tell us that Buggy could beat Whitebeard because the latter fights with a bladed weapon against someone who can't be cut.

Razh
April 12, 2009, 01:14 PM
Moria had superhuman strength, a teleport swap with a completely unbreakable body, split an island in half, and became a lot bigger than Kuma. He didn't seem particularly impressed or scared of Kuma either.

They're allies aren't they.


Is being struck by lightning any worse than getting incinerated by a ball of fire the size of a battleship? Which do you feel more confident in surviving: grabbing a live wire or dousing yourself in gasoline and lighting yourself on fire?

Lightning moves a lot faster. Blackbeard wouldn't be able to react in time, like he could with the fireball. And Blackbeard wasn't incinerated. The fire of that fireball didn't even touch him. His power is creating a black hole. Black holes absorb stuff. Nobody can survive being burned with that Entei thing.
About your question. I don't think I would survive any of those. Neither would Blackbeard. Thanks.



In a shonen though with such widely variant strengths I think foreshadowing is much more important than people give it credit for, and between Shanks concern, BB's fight against Ace, and the will of D, Blackbeard is definitely a solid pick for topping the chart.

The important thing is that Shanks expresses concern for the future. He sees Blackbeard as a future threat to Whitebeard. That doesn't mean that he's scared of him.
And this discussion was about which is the strongest Shichibukai now. Even if I take Kuma aside, I can't imagine Blackbeard, based on what we've seen him do, being stronger than the world's number one swordsman.


Edit: As an example, if we were to not accept Oda's buildup of characters and only go by observation, it would tell us that Buggy could beat Whitebeard because the latter fights with a bladed weapon against someone who can't be cut.

That's oversimplifying things. Besides, Whitebeard has fists and legs too.
And Buggy can't win only by surviving the slashes. He'd have to land a blow and make it count. Can't imagine it.

Kaiser Will
April 12, 2009, 01:30 PM
For me the strongest Shichibukai is Mihawk.

If we have a fight between all the Shichis, BB and Mihawk would definetelly be the ones that have a upper hand among the others, and between those two, Mihawk is a swordman and BB devil fruit increase damage into his body, and the main power of his DF, for me, is to nullified others DF powers so Mihawk, seems to me that he doesn't have a DF, would definetelly be the strongest!

Razh
April 12, 2009, 01:45 PM
But I don't get one thing though. Why is Kuma being so underestimated?
As if those encounters on Thriller Bark and Shabondy Archipelago didn't even happen. Yes, the strawhats were tired, but still, Kuma didn't even break a sweat. Zoro managed to surprise him, but caused almost no damage. And Zoro is no weakling.

If he were to fight Blackbeard, those DF negation powers wouldn't really help Blackbeard that much. All that he would be able to do is stop Kuma from teleporting or using his repelling abilities while they are in contact.

And Kuma is a monster even without his DF. He's huge, so he has longer range than Blackbeard, he's half machine and has almost indestructable body. He can fire a laser from his mouth. That's only the stuff we've seen. And he has beaten SH almost without trying, so I doubt it that we've seen everything that he can do.

So I repeat, why underestimate the guy?

[lucci]
April 12, 2009, 03:26 PM
I think it's between Kuma and mihawk, Mihawk would beat BB (which is the second strongest after them) because he didn't eat any DF and Kuma would too because he can teleport. Do Flamingo didn't show fully his powers so I can't say anything about him....

deffkryz
April 12, 2009, 07:11 PM
As far as I can recall, Kuma's powers were by far the strongest shown so far. Why? Well...


Blackbeard crushed a whole town ... Kuma could have done this with his "Ursa Shock" - while being almost invincible due to his compounds.
Blackbeard took damage from Ace's attacks ... Kuma seems almost invincible by blocking the incoming attacks with his pawns.
Mihawk sliced Krieg's fleet... You guys really think Kuma could not have done the same in a way shorter time? Even if he didn't destroy the ships he could have sent them flying and spread them all over the world leaving Krieg all alone and beaten.


By now I would clearly vote for Kuma - but I don't do it now because I want to wait what Oda brings up in their fight against WB and his commanders. (I'm pretty sure that this big event won't be cancelled even if Luffy manages to free Ace.)

Xenos3421
April 12, 2009, 08:51 PM
Why is Kuma being so underestimated?

Kuma's a sweetie. He's no Tyrant.

Re-read chapters 485 and 513; clearly Kuma has no intention of actually harming the strawhats and he himself has a connection to Dragon somehow.
So it should be safe to say Kuma's not a REAL enemy, but he ain't no ally of the mugiwaras.

now with Kuma, Hancock, and Jimbei, excluded for reasons that should just be obvious, that leaves us with Mihawk, BB, Moria and Doflamingo.
hmm...
Moria is not the strongest, Doflamingo has the highest former bounty ever, BB's fucking Black beard, and Mihawk is zoro's grudge match- as hard as it is to choose, i'd say it's either down to Mihawk or BB.

(Unless Doflamingo turns out to be the mastermind behind everything, that guy is hiding way too much..)

And then it comes down to what's really more powerful, a perfect slash, or the anti-DF?

I'll give it to Mihawk, because we've seen so little of his fighting potential. And the whole, yet-to-be-revealed bounty thingy.

RichardMNixon
April 12, 2009, 09:02 PM
He said the gravity sucks in all the damage of the attacks, so his black hole should make the entei hurt even worse, and he got hit by plenty of other fire attacks with little to no apparent lasting effect. Even if the black hole did work, Enel takes quite a while to charge up for some of his attacks, banging his drums and what not, I see no reason Blackbeard couldn't make a small black hole in front of himself. He also never dodged one of Ace's attacks so what does it matter if he can't dodge Enel's?

The National Weather Service publication Storm Data recorded 3,239 deaths and 9,818 injuries from lightning strikes between 1959 and 1994. This means that at most, 24.8% of lightning strikes were fatal.

Also Usopp, Sanji, Zoro, Robin, Gan Fall, etc. were all struck by Enel's lightning and survived, and so would Blackbeard.

If Kuma can't hit Blackbeard with his devil fruit, then all he is is a pacifista who can teleport, at least until Blackbeard catches him in his vortex. So what you're saying is, Blackbeard would lose to a pacifista. Why underestimate the guy?

Kaiser Will
April 12, 2009, 09:29 PM
But I don't get one thing though. Why is Kuma being so underestimated?
As if those encounters on Thriller Bark and Shabondy Archipelago didn't even happen. Yes, the strawhats were tired, but still, Kuma didn't even break a sweat. Zoro managed to surprise him, but caused almost no damage. And Zoro is no weakling.

If he were to fight Blackbeard, those DF negation powers wouldn't really help Blackbeard that much. All that he would be able to do is stop Kuma from teleporting or using his repelling abilities while they are in contact.

And Kuma is a monster even without his DF. He's huge, so he has longer range than Blackbeard, he's half machine and has almost indestructable body. He can fire a laser from his mouth. That's only the stuff we've seen. And he has beaten SH almost without trying, so I doubt it that we've seen everything that he can do.

So I repeat, why underestimate the guy?

I completely forgot him, sorry. But taking this facts and that the SH defeat a Pacifista clone then BB could win if he nullfied Kuma DF, and if Kuma doesn's have his DF powers he is just an ordinary Pacifista! The only problem is how to catch that guy, he move at the speed of light.

Anyway a fight between Kuma and Mihawk is something very dificult to even imagine, one is the greatest swordmen in the world and the other a Pacifista with a DF that is really something else, but if Mihawk could at least managed to slice him, I think that he is done, I'm judging the fact that Zoro strike him and make some damage in his Pacifista body and was still exhausted because of the OZ x SH crew.

Another thing that came to my mind, if haki can really be used to nullfied the DF powers like Rayleigh did, so Boa could be at least in the same level of Mihawk!

Damn it Oda, show us Mihawk bounty!

BlackHair
April 13, 2009, 01:51 AM
Just to let u guys know, as BB was fighting Ace, he didn't showed us his upper limits of his capabilities. Since Ace wasn't strong enough to force him to.

BB vs Enel: BB physical endurance is high. I believe he can most likely take a few hits from Enel, without losing consciousness/his life. Even if Enel is able to predict his move, he can't escape the gravity of BB, no matter how fast he is. As soon as Enel is within BB's range, he is done.

BB vs Kuma: Tbh no idea. I think with his gravity it's quite easy to catch Kuma. But then.. idk punch him to death lol. But like mentioned above, we didn't saw all of BB's strengths and since I believe BB is already in his prime, I'm putting him above Kuma.


So I repeat, why underestimate the guy?
I'm just talking for me now, since I don't know about other: Kuma was introduced early to the SHs, as an enemy they have to defeat (different from AoKiji, BB, Mwk (final goal)). That's why I putting him lower than BB. Tbh I'm also putting him lower than Flamingo atm. But don't get me wrong, Im not underestimating him.

Razh
April 13, 2009, 05:42 AM
Kuma's a sweetie. He's no Tyrant.

Re-read chapters 485 and 513; clearly Kuma has no intention of actually harming the strawhats and he himself has a connection to Dragon somehow.
So it should be safe to say Kuma's not a REAL enemy, but he ain't no ally of the mugiwaras.


Here, we're discussing which one is the strongest, not which one is the biggest threat to SH. Kuma's affection to SH isn't important here. And he may be a sweetie to SH, but he's certainly no sweetie to all the other pirates he has beaten. He didn't get the nickname tyrant by sending his enemies to random islands so they could get stronger.


He said the gravity sucks in all the damage of the attacks, so his black hole should make the entei hurt even worse, and he got hit by plenty of other fire attacks with little to no apparent lasting effect. Even if the black hole did work, Enel takes quite a while to charge up for some of his attacks, banging his drums and what not, I see no reason Blackbeard couldn't make a small black hole in front of himself. He also never dodged one of Ace's attacks so what does it matter if he can't dodge Enel's?

Gravity sucks all the damage of the attacks he receives. If he received that fireball he would have died. The fact that he had no burns on him means that he absorbed that fireball with his black hole before it could have damaged him.
And yes, Blackbeard can make small black hole in front of him, but Enel can still read minds and teleport around.


The National Weather Service publication Storm Data recorded 3,239 deaths and 9,818 injuries from lightning strikes between 1959 and 1994. This means that at most, 24.8% of lightning strikes were fatal.

So? We're talking about manga here. If there was somebody controlling those lightnings with an intention to kill, the percentage of deaths would have probably been higher.


Also Usopp, Sanji, Zoro, Robin, Gan Fall, etc. were all struck by Enel's lightning and survived, and so would Blackbeard.


They survived all right. They came back to their senses, after a while, too. Imagine what Enel could have done why they were passed out.
And those weren't his highest voltages.


I completely forgot him, sorry. But taking this facts and that the SH defeat a Pacifista clone then BB could win if he nullfied Kuma DF, and if Kuma doesn's have his DF powers he is just an ordinary Pacifista! The only problem is how to catch that guy, he move at the speed of light.


But it looks to me like you're forgetting that Kuma's powers are nullified just while Blackbeard is holding him. While he's not holding him, he can just zap around, shoot pressure balls, repel Blackbeard's punches and so on.
If Blackbeard gets a hold of him, than he only has one hand to work with. That's a bad way to try to fight either Kuma or one of Pacifistas.



BB vs Enel: BB physical endurance is high. I believe he can most likely take a few hits from Enel, without losing consciousness/his life. Even if Enel is able to predict his move, he can't escape the gravity of BB, no matter how fast he is. As soon as Enel is within BB's range, he is done.


Everybody else besides Luffy at least passed out for quite a time before he/she could get back up again.
Besides, Ace was perfectly able to attack Blackbeard while he was being pulled towards him. Enel who can read thoughts and attack much faster could do the same.

Hell, I'm not saying it would be really easy. But the fact that Enel ended up on the moon tells a lot. Enel is one of the strongest people introduced in One Piece so far, and Luffy had enough luck to have the only DF which provides protection from Enel's attacks.
Afterwards, Enel ended up on the Moon. Imagine what he would do on Grand Line.

BlackHair
April 13, 2009, 07:10 AM
I believe Zoro survived two shots of Enel's lightning, not sure though. Doesn't matter anyway, since the old SH's are nowhere even to the current Blackbeard. BB went after the darkness fruit, fully knowing of the disadvantages of his logia. It just shows that he himself is confident in his physical ability, which he also proved while fighting Ace. So I'm pretty confident that BB can take a few hit's from Enel's lightning. Though It depends on how much voltage. Given Enel's attitude, the first ones shouldn't be high.

BB has big ambition, he would do everything to reach his goal. But he isn't blind, he is seeing the danger on his path (WB). That's why he took side with the WG. Unlike Enel, who panicked after witnessing Luffy's rubber body. He even wanted to avoid fighting him by fleeing. He also lacks in experience fighting DF user, in which BB has the advantage.

That said, his DF ability makes him to a monster. Yes he would be notorious on the blue sea, but at the same time, I can't see him acting calmly, step for step like BB. He would be probably as cocky as WB (though he build sth, so he is allowed to be cocky), which would bring him the fall sooner or later.

But don't get me wrong, I'm not a BB fan, since his plan isn't shounen manga worth. In fact I don't like him. But I give him credit for how he moves.

Rotten The Wizard
April 13, 2009, 12:30 PM
HONESTLY, Hancock should me able to take out BB. We havent seen what she can do yet but she Has King's Haki. BB is probably invincible when fighting fruit users but If Hancock has Mastery over Her king's Haki BB would get royally F*****. With her haki her attacks would hit like a ton of steel and she'd be able to get by BB's powers (which is his main feat.)

Sengoku is the Head Admiral and he Acknowledges Hancock.

I'd say the top 2 shichibukai are Mihawk and hancock.

and Imo given a clean bill of Health Zoro could probably push Kuma to his brink and possibly even defeat him.
Kuma taking out the SH's twice was nothing special. Beating on people who are already worn out is not honourable.

and for the Record BB and Enel are probably on equal footing. Enel is an extremely good fighter without the use of his DF

Host Samurai
April 13, 2009, 12:55 PM
I think that Mihawk is the strongest one. There must be a reason why Oda never showed us his former Bounty until now. With that we would be able to predict Mihawk's strength. The only thing that we know, is that he is on par with Shanks, one of the four Emperor's of the Sea.

Kuma, Do Flamingo are listed high on my list too. Hancock is a wildcard that I can't predict. And BB is way too overrated.

RichardMNixon
April 13, 2009, 12:57 PM
Enel without his DF would get torn to pieces by Lucci without his. Mantra just gives him some extra time to dodge the attacks, it still won't make him comparable to Lucci in speed and he's nowhere even close in power.

Rotten The Wizard
April 13, 2009, 01:02 PM
Enel without his DF would get torn to pieces by Lucci without his. Mantra just gives him some extra time to dodge the attacks, it still won't make him comparable to Lucci in speed and he's nowhere even close in power.

what does Lucci have to do with this? lol


But also; Haki gives you the ability to completely predict your opponents movements. That automatically gives a HUGE advantage in a fight.
My point is that everyone is underestimating Hancock, but I believe she's more than just a pretty face and body (hehe) she's a beast as well. I hate to compare her to a legend but she is of Rayleigh's calibre. Not same level but same calibre since Rayleigh seems to have Full mastery of it.

Its very Difficult to match a swordsman against an actual Fighter so thats why I say its a tie between hancock and Mihawk.

RichardMNixon
April 13, 2009, 01:09 PM
Enel is an extremely good fighter without the use of his DF

I'm arguing against that point. Without his DF, Enel wouldn't last five minutes against current opponents or several of the current straw hats.

I agree with you on Hancock, I have no idea how strong she is. Her bounty is meaningless because she was drafted after her first raid; it could have gone way higher if she had refused

Razh
April 13, 2009, 01:37 PM
I'm arguing against that point. Without his DF, Enel wouldn't last five minutes against current opponents or several of the current straw hats.


That's really a silly point. Most of the strong characters who have devil fruits wouldn't last 5 minutes against current opponents. Luffy is probably among them.

And you don't know for sure just how strong Enel is physically because he never had to demonstrate it. But it's safe to assume he's really strong. If you want to think that he's a weakling without his DF that's your thing.
Oda gave him a 500 000 000 belli bounty. It probably means that he can pack a pretty good punch, at the very least.

And if he were to fight Blackbeard, he wouldn't be deprived of his DF. He wouldn't be able to use it if Blackbeard got a hold of him and Blackbeard could punch or kick him, or bite his ear off.
But speed is what would give Enel an edge.

Hancock has a tricky fruit. Luffy was probably immune do to his innocence. I'm wondering how experienced men, who lived for a while and had a chance to know certain pleasures would respond to it.

RichardMNixon
April 13, 2009, 01:51 PM
That's really a silly point. Most of the strong characters who have devil fruits wouldn't last 5 minutes against current opponents. Luffy is probably among them.


That is precisely my point, Enel is physically no stronger than Luffy and in my opinion significantly weaker (even with his trident he wasn't faring so well). If Blackbeard lays a finger on him its over. Unless you think current Luffy could take Blackbeard.

As for the strength of his lightning, that's a difference of opinion we won't be able to resolve. I would point that Blackbeard was smiling and stationary when he was about to get hit with Ace's cross attack, the one that knocked over a banana rock prompting the villagers to declare them inhuman. I think you are drastically underestimating Blackbeard's con score.

Rotten The Wizard
April 13, 2009, 02:24 PM
That's really a silly point. Most of the strong characters who have devil fruits wouldn't last 5 minutes against current opponents. Luffy is probably among them.

And you don't know for sure just how strong Enel is physically because he never had to demonstrate it. But it's safe to assume he's really strong. If you want to think that he's a weakling without his DF that's your thing.
Oda gave him a 500 000 000 belli bounty. It probably means that he can pack a pretty good punch, at the very least.

And if he were to fight Blackbeard, he wouldn't be deprived of his DF. He wouldn't be able to use it if Blackbeard got a hold of him and Blackbeard could punch or kick him, or bite his ear off.
But speed is what would give Enel an edge.

Hancock has a tricky fruit. Luffy was probably immune do to his innocence. I'm wondering how experienced men, who lived for a while and had a chance to know certain pleasures would respond to it.

I highly doubt hancock uses her DF abilities to actually fight. It's more like a tool she uses to instanly pwn weak people like Rayleigh's burst of Haki

Phase
April 13, 2009, 02:30 PM
I highly doubt hancock uses her DF abilities to actually fight. It's more like a tool she uses to instanly pwn weak people like Rayleigh's burst of Haki

Turning people to stone isn't the entirety of her ability, and it doesn't just work on weak people. Let's not forget that Vice Admaral Momonga had to stab his own hand to avoid it. We've seen her do her "pistol kiss" which suggests that there is more to her ability than we've been shown so far.

Dice
April 13, 2009, 02:33 PM
Maybe she won't use that aspect of her DF against stronger foes but I bet she will use her pistol kiss and whatever she can do.

Edit: Phase was faster than me^^

RichardMNixon
April 13, 2009, 03:26 PM
What about an ability through which she "breaks your heart"?

Rotten The Wizard
April 13, 2009, 03:35 PM
My guess is that the snake is her primary fighting tool

Razh
April 13, 2009, 03:41 PM
As for the strength of his lightning, that's a difference of opinion we won't be able to resolve. I would point that Blackbeard was smiling and stationary when he was about to get hit with Ace's cross attack, the one that knocked over a banana rock prompting the villagers to declare them inhuman. I think you are drastically underestimating Blackbeard's con score.

We can't be sure if that happened right away or later in the heat of battle. The villagers did say that another rock has fallen or something like it. And that was the first rock we have seen falling.
And I'm not underestimating anything. Being hit with a fire cross isn't the same as being hit with 100 000 000 volt lightning. He can have a constitution of a whale but it would still knock him out.

Rotten The Wizard
April 13, 2009, 03:49 PM
If I may join in the discussion; Lighting is alot more deadly in a fight fire. Fire takes time to burn, lighting fries you instantly. For example, had ace's fire lances been out of electricity they would've went right through WB

Xenos3421
April 13, 2009, 03:52 PM
What about an ability through which she "breaks your heart"?

Hmmm, a heartbreaker strike huh??

I could see that being her finishing move, but i can't imagine what it would look like.
------------------------------------

And i've been thinking about the Shichibukai setup for a while, the seven of them are like an all-star team of badass.

Each of them are mighty and powerful in their own specific ways. Because the shichibukai are not a normal pirate crew they are each infamous pirates!

so i'll say, if there was a one on one, in ANY combination of the shichibukai-
Whoever has the initiative wins.

Yup. try it out in your head it works.

*edit*
From RichardMNixon
" I think you are drastically underestimating Blackbeard's con score.
on the whole lightning thing,"

haha, yeah BB's got the epic amulet of health and something like a +12 mod at the least!
I can see him being electrocuted, stabbed, lit on fire, then laugh it off and then dish it back out.

Honestly though, lightning's been shown to be stronger in One Piece then fire.

RichardMNixon
April 13, 2009, 04:05 PM
If I may join in the discussion; Lighting is alot more deadly in a fight fire. Fire takes time to burn, lighting fries you instantly. For example, had ace's fire lances been out of electricity they would've went right through WB

What basis do you have for this? That's what I'm getting at. I really like electricity, I usually pick wind in fantasy games that have that sort of system, but the fact of the matter is that there is no basis by which you can state that electricity is more harmful than fire. This is not helped at all by having no objective sense of scale in comparing them. Which are you more likely to survive, a lighting strike or having the sun fall on you?

His fire lances did go right through Blackbeard and probably ought to have pierced his lungs, but Blackbeard was shown to be practically invincible.

The reverence people have for Ace means it wouldn't surprise me at all if his bounty was greater than 500 million.

I also reiterate the common adage that amps kill you, not volts, so the voltage of Enel's attacks is irrelevant.

Razh
April 13, 2009, 04:18 PM
Lightning strikes faster and harder. That's all there is to it. Lightning will kill you in a second and fire will make you scream in agony.
Those lances didn't pass through Blackbeard, or pierced his lungs. That would mean that he has super fast regeneration capability.

And what are you saying? That all those Enel enemies passed out from a negative placebo effect? Just because Enel called his attacks using volts, doesn't mean that his lightning lacked amps. I'm not gonna convert volts into amps so that this discussion would be scientifically accurate. I wouldn't know how anyway.

Phase
April 13, 2009, 04:41 PM
I also reiterate the common adage that amps kill you, not volts, so the voltage of Enel's attacks is irrelevant.

Hmm, this isn't entirely accurate. It's more accurate to say that watts kill you, which is a combination of volts and amps, but it's still not perfect. The relation is given by V=IR where I is amps and R is resistance. The resistance of a human being is quite high, so the amperage passed through wont be all that high. The resistance remains somewhat constant, so it can be accurate to relate death specifically to a number of volts. 1,000,000 volts is enough to kill any human alive many times over. As a point of reference, a common household electrical socket can kill a human, and it's only 120 volts.

The easiest way to think about volts, amps (current), and ohms (resistance) is with water. You have a barrel of water and you cut a hole in the bottom. The amount of water in the barrel pushing water out of the hole would be volts. The size of the hole would be resistance (smaller hole is bigger resistance). The speed the water leaves the barrel is then amps, which can be derived from the other two values.

Edit: I think BB could handle Enel the same way he handled Ace. If you look at http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/441/11/ you see that he mentions lightning by name.

Rotten The Wizard
April 13, 2009, 04:55 PM
Hmm, this isn't entirely accurate. It's more accurate to say that watts kill you, which is a combination of volts and amps, but it's still not perfect. The relation is given by V=IR where I is amps and R is resistance. The resistance of a human being is quite high, so the amperage passed through wont be all that high. The resistance remains somewhat constant, so it can be accurate to relate death specifically to a number of volts. 1,000,000 volts is enough to kill any human alive many times over. As a point of reference, a common household electrical socket can kill a human, and it's only 120 volts.

The easiest way to think about volts, amps (current), and ohms (resistance) is with water. You have a barrel of water and you cut a hole in the bottom. The amount of water in the barrel pushing water out of the hole would be volts. The size of the hole would be resistance (smaller hole is bigger resistance). The speed the water leaves the barrel is then amps, which can be derived from the other two values.

Edit: I think BB could handle Enel the same way he handled Ace. If you look at http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/441/11/ you see that he mentions lightning by name.

he was speaking of his power not his endurance. He stated that his darkness consumes everything

Gecko Moria
April 13, 2009, 04:58 PM
If I may join in the discussion; Lighting is alot more deadly in a fight fire. Fire takes time to burn, lighting fries you instantly. For example, had ace's fire lances been out of electricity they would've went right through WB

Both lightning and fire are deadly (as previously mentioned) but lightning is faster as it travels through air (the normal medium of travel) at the speed of light whereas fire doesn't. Also because the human body does not conduct electricity, lightning won't go through a person's body and come out the other side. Fire and electricity do two different types of damage. Fire burns and electricity electrocutes. If Blackbeard could survive being burned that many times I wouldn't be surprised if he could resist being electrocuted as well.


Lightning strikes faster and harder. That's all there is to it. Lightning will kill you in a second and fire will make you scream in agony.
Those lances didn't pass through Blackbeard, or pierced his lungs. That would mean that he has super fast regeneration capability.


Exactly. (http://read.mangashare.com/One-Piece/chapter-441/page013.html) The fire lances don't seem to have actually gone through Blackbeard's body, but they have pierced his skin (hence the blood). If they had skewered through him he would be dead, regardless of his superhuman endurance as no one can survive long with punctured lungs or heart.

Phase
April 13, 2009, 04:58 PM
he was speaking of his power not his endurance. He stated that his darkness consumes everything

That's exactly right, he has the power to suck in lightning. So Enel doesn't stand a chance, because he'll get sucked in just like Ace.

Rotten The Wizard
April 13, 2009, 05:01 PM
That's exactly right, he has the power to suck in lightning. So Enel doesn't stand a chance, because he'll get sucked in just like Ace.

yea lighting moves at about 186,000 miles per second. Sorry but Enel would rape BB in his current state(he hasnt fully mastered his DF) and If A lightning bolt from god wont kill him I'm sure a Trident to the face will :eyeroll

Gecko Moria
April 13, 2009, 05:15 PM
yea lighting moves at about 186,000 miles per second. Sorry but Enel would rape BB in his current state(he hasnt fully mastered his DF) and If A lightning bolt from god wont kill him I'm sure a Trident to the face will :eyeroll

Eneru is too fast for most of the characters in One Piece to keep up with (except Kizaru and Kuma etc.). Aside from his god-like speed his devastating attacks are practically fatal in one attack as well. In fact, there are most likely not many characters in One Piece that could even fight on par with Eneru. Blackbeard would not be able to draw Eneru in with his gravity due to Eneru being too fast . And though one attack from Eneru may not be enough to take down Blackbeard, more attacks will. Luffy had another stroke of luck that his rubber state was immune to lightning/electricity.

Razh
April 13, 2009, 05:41 PM
It's possible that Blackbeard would have beaten Enel I guess. But it would be really hard. Enel probably has the strongest fruit there is. Overall I mean. Attack power and speed by itself are more than enough. When you add the ability to hear thoughts it's just too much.

But we're straying a little here.

It's a shame that we don't know that much about other Shichibukai abilties.
Doflamingo's ability is interesting. The people he controls retain their senses but can't do anything to control their limbs. I don't think it's some simple strings at work. Doflamingo couldn't make people clench their fists by pulling strings. It's almost like he controls nervous impulses.
I'm curious about his fighting capabilities. He doesn't strike me as an unarmed fighter. First time I saw him, I thought he was some swordsman, but there is no sword, unless he's hiding it in those feathers.

Phase
April 13, 2009, 05:47 PM
Blackbeard states that nothing can escape gravity, even lightning. Once he starts using his vortex, no amount of "speed" is going to counter it. If I learn to run fast enough, will I stop being pulled towards the ground? Even photons themselves (light particles for those who don't know) can't escape the effects of gravity. Light waves are shown to "bend" towards planets. Enel can do all kinds of damage while he's being sucked in, but chances are that he can't do enough to kill BB.

Once BB has Enel in his grasp, Enel's powers are gone and it's game over.

Rotten The Wizard
April 13, 2009, 05:55 PM
It's possible that Blackbeard would have beaten Enel I guess. But it would be really hard. Enel probably has the strongest fruit there is. Overall I mean. Attack power and speed by itself are more than enough. When you add the ability to hear thoughts it's just too much.

But we're straying a little here.

It's a shame that we don't know that much about other Shichibukai abilties.
Doflamingo's ability is interesting. The people he controls retain their senses but can't do anything to control their limbs. I don't think it's some simple strings at work. Doflamingo couldn't make people clench their fists by pulling strings. It's almost like he controls nervous impulses.
I'm curious about his fighting capabilities. He doesn't strike me as an unarmed fighter. First time I saw him, I thought he was some swordsman, but there is no sword, unless he's hiding it in those feathers.

In my eyes DoFlamingo is a weakling until proven strong. The power to control people? C'mon I'm pretty sure that doesnt work against strong willed people. Im not sure thats the scope of his abilities he may be able to control inanimate objects as well.

MAYBE he's a psychic. Anyone ever thought of that? That would be really interesting.
Or maybe its telekinesis

Gecko Moria
April 13, 2009, 06:42 PM
In my eyes DoFlamingo is a weakling until proven strong. The power to control people? C'mon I'm pretty sure that doesnt work against strong willed people. Im not sure thats the scope of his abilities he may be able to control inanimate objects as well.

MAYBE he's a psychic. Anyone ever thought of that? That would be really interesting.
Or maybe its telekinesis

I wonder what he did to get his bounty so high? I know it might not show anything but the other Shichibukai have insane powers and have commited all sorts of atrocious deeds yet he has the highest bounty mentioned so far. Therefore, I do not think he is a total weakling when up against stronger people since we can not be sure of the exact nature of his powers.

Tsukisama
April 13, 2009, 08:01 PM
Since the recent posts seem to be comparing the Shichibukai to other opponents, I decided to merge the threads (strongest Shichibukai (pre-BB & post-BB)) with the "The Power of the Shichibukai" thread, which also discusses how powerful they are.

For the poll, I included the poll results from the previous two strongest threads. For BB and Crocodile (who only appeared in one thread each), I placed their scores from their respective threads in this poll directly. For the others, I took the average poll result from the two threads and placed it in this poll. Hopefully that is sufficient. {Plus, since this is a new thread, you get to vote again. :tem}

Kaiser Will
April 13, 2009, 08:11 PM
But it looks to me like you're forgetting that Kuma's powers are nullified just while Blackbeard is holding him. While he's not holding him, he can just zap around, shoot pressure balls, repel Blackbeard's punches and so on.
If Blackbeard gets a hold of him, than he only has one hand to work with. That's a bad way to try to fight either Kuma or one of Pacifistas.


You know that BB can suck the DF entity and the user too, look again what he did to Ace when he gave that strike in his neck, if he can do this so the speed of Kuma can not be that advantage!
BTW he have a crew too, and they seem to me quite strong, I think that they can handle one Pacifista!

Phase
April 13, 2009, 08:27 PM
Since the recent posts seem to be comparing the Shichibukai to other opponents, I decided to merge the threads (strongest Shichibukai (pre-BB & post-BB)) with the "The Power of the Shichibukai" thread, which also discusses how powerful they are.

For the poll, I included the poll results from the previous two strongest threads. For BB and Crocodile (who only appeared in one thread each), I placed their scores from their respective threads in this poll directly. For the others, I took the average poll result from the two threads and placed it in this poll. Hopefully that is sufficient. {Plus, since this is a new thread, you get to vote again. :tem}

Thanks for that, I had initially wanted to do this but was unable to. My only complaint is about bringing in the old votes. The Pre-BB thread was much older and had a lot more total votes, so it's effectively weighted much heavier. The result is the huge margin that Mihawk is currently leading by. If the threads had a similar number of total votes, your system would have been nearly perfect.

Edit: If you want to do a statistics based method to solve this problem, do this. Take the total number of votes from the newer poll and divide by the total number of votes from the older poll. You'll now have a number between 0 and 1. Multiply everyone's vote totals in the older poll by that number and round. Problem solved.

Tsukisama
April 13, 2009, 08:32 PM
Thanks for that, I had initially wanted to do this but was unable to. My only complaint is about bringing in the old votes. The Pre-BB thread was much older and had a lot more total votes, so it's effectively weighted much heavier. The result is the huge margin that Mihawk is currently leading by. If the threads had a similar number of total votes, your system would have been nearly perfect.

Well, I wanted to be fair when doing this; so, I thought doing an average of the two votes would be best. In the Pre-BB thread, Mihawk had 43 votes; in the thread with BB, he had 19. So, I started this thread with Mihawk having 31 votes. That is not that big of a difference considering the newer thread.

Phase
April 13, 2009, 08:39 PM
Well, I wanted to be fair when doing this; so, I thought doing an average of the two votes would be best. In the Pre-BB thread, Mihawk had 43 votes; in the thread with BB, he had 19. So, I started this thread with Mihawk having 31 votes. That is not that big of a difference considering the newer thread.

Ok, think of it this way. Let's pretend everyone in the old poll was tied with 95 votes and everyone in the new poll was tied with 5 votes. By that logic, all the Shichibukai are completely even. Under your system, you have BB with 5 votes, Croc with 95 votes, and everyone else with 50. The total number of votes needs to be evened out first to make it fair.

I used an extreme example just to illustrate the point. I'm being anal about statistics because my profession requires me to be, sorry.

Mihawk was really beating BB 19-9 in the new poll? Wow, I didn't even realize.

Tsukisama
April 13, 2009, 08:43 PM
Ok, think of it this way. Let's pretend everyone in the old poll was tied with 95 votes and everyone in the new poll was tied with 5 votes. By that logic, all the Shichibukai are completely even. Under your system, you have BB with 5 votes, Croc with 95 votes, and everyone else with 50. The total number of votes needs to be evened out first to make it fair.

I used an extreme example just to illustrate the point. I'm being anal about statistics because my profession requires me to be, sorry.

Mihawk was really beating BB 19-9 in the new poll? Wow, I didn't even realize.

Right. I understand how that would be problematic if the difference was that great, but since the difference was basically 40-20, I didn't feel bad about using a simple average. If it had been as great as you say, I would have used a weighted average to make it fairer.

Also, yes, Mihawk was thoroughly beating BB even in the thread that included BB, which I found rather interesting, as the reason for the two threads was that people thought BB would have such an overwhelming majority. :amuse

Phase
April 13, 2009, 08:51 PM
Right. I understand how that would be problematic if the difference was that great, but since the difference was basically 40-20, I didn't feel bad about using a simple average. If it had been as great as you say, I would have used a weighted average to make it fairer.

Also, yes, Mihawk was thoroughly beating BB even in the thread that included BB, which I found rather interesting, as the reason for the two threads was that people thought BB would have such an overwhelming majority. :amuse

Hah, yeah it seems that my assumptions about public opinion were inaccurate. I guess the thing that bothers me is that the newer poll was really focusing on BB vs Mihawk, and after combining the two Mihawk got a free bonus basically.

As you said though, the difference isn't all that significant for entertainment purposes, so this is my last post on ths subject. I'm ok with it.

RichardMNixon
April 14, 2009, 01:03 AM
Lightning has mass and so can't move anywhere near the speed of light. The speed of lightning is about 0.02% of the speed of light (37 miles per second).

Go back and watch Luffy fight Enel. If he was so fast why couldn't he turn Luffy to swiss cheese in a few seconds? The man is made of lightning and that's about it. He's got mantra too but that didn't seem to help him (or the Serpent sisters) that much anyhow. He's badass, but he isn't on any kind of pedestal anymore. That was the whole point of the SA arc: "we ain't seen nothin' yet."

This series has had people survive completely ridiculous things (most of them happening to Zoro, but Pell and Igaram stand out as well). Why is everyone so convinced that Blackbeard has a glass jaw or even a realistic damage threshold? He's a D. http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/441/16/ Does he look like he'd care about being struck by lightning?

Gecko Moria
April 14, 2009, 02:45 AM
Lightning has mass and so can't move anywhere near the speed of light. The speed of lightning is about 0.02% of the speed of light (37 miles per second).

Go back and watch Luffy fight Enel. If he was so fast why couldn't he turn Luffy to swiss cheese in a few seconds? The man is made of lightning and that's about it. He's got mantra too but that didn't seem to help him (or the Serpent sisters) that much anyhow. He's badass, but he isn't on any kind of pedestal anymore. That was the whole point of the SA arc: "we ain't seen nothin' yet."

This series has had people survive completely ridiculous things (most of them happening to Zoro, but Pell and Igaram stand out as well). Why is everyone so convinced that Blackbeard has a glass jaw or even a realistic damage threshold? He's a D. http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/441/16/ Does he look like he'd care about being struck by lightning?

Blackbeard's superhuman strength helpers him not only to have a high damage threshold but also to bypass what seems to be the only weakness of his fruit (after a fashion). However, he may not look like he cares about being hit by lightning (due to his happy-go-lucky and proud nature) I'm certain that after a few hits he would be smart enough to realize that if he keeps getting damaged to will die.

ihateyou1
April 14, 2009, 03:36 AM
this is off the thread but i feel like saying this.. well for me eneru is stronger than any shichi the only one who can match him i think is admiral kizaru... that's it.. as for the strongest shichi well i'll rate boa hancock as the strongest... why? coz she has the haki of a king... that's it! no other shichi has that kind of haki..well for some shichi they might have some haki power that boa's haki is the strongest...

Razh
April 14, 2009, 04:16 AM
Blackbeard states that nothing can escape gravity, even lightning. Once he starts using his vortex, no amount of "speed" is going to counter it. If I learn to run fast enough, will I stop being pulled towards the ground? Even photons themselves (light particles for those who don't know) can't escape the effects of gravity. Light waves are shown to "bend" towards planets. Enel can do all kinds of damage while he's being sucked in, but chances are that he can't do enough to kill BB.

Once BB has Enel in his grasp, Enel's powers are gone and it's game over.

Was it a clumsy way of putting it or did you really say right now that nobody who has a devil fruit has any chance against Blackbeard?

If Ace could fire up Blackbeard while he was pulling him, I don't see Enel having any trouble shooting out 100 mil volts lightning at him.



You know that BB can suck the DF entity and the user too, look again what he did to Ace when he gave that strike in his neck, if he can do this so the speed of Kuma can not be that advantage!
BTW he have a crew to, and they seem to me quite strong, I think that they can handle one Pacifista!

Oh my god! Do I really have to go through this again? DF are nullfied only while Blackbeard is touching their opponents. Pulling your opponent towards you makes sense if you're stronger than him. What is the use of pulling a super strong cyborg towards you? So he can beat the crap out of you easier?
Kuma wasn't turned into a cyborg by a world's greatest mind who is 500 years ahead of his time to be weakling. I'm pretty sure that Kuma is stronger than Blackbeard.
Blackbeard, pulling Kuma, who is both bigger and stronger, towards him would be a great way to lose a fight.

And why are you mentioning Blackbeard's crew? We're discussing here the strength of each individual Shichibukai.

Nognir
April 14, 2009, 05:00 AM
this is off the thread but i feel like saying this.. well for me eneru is stronger than any shichi the only one who can match him i think is admiral kizaru... that's it.. as for the strongest shichi well i'll rate boa hancock as the strongest... why? coz she has the haki of a king... that's it! no other shichi has that kind of haki..well for some shichi they might have some haki power that boa's haki is the strongest...
Like Luffy counters her Haki, it's not unlikely that other at the Shichibukai level can do it as well. Unless it takes a Haoshoku Haki (the one that Hancock and Luffy possess) to counter it and that alone.

BlackHair
April 14, 2009, 06:06 AM
I don't get why ppl think: "kings haki = strongest". So far it is only said that it is rare. Doesn't necessary have to be "the strongest". It could be like bloodtype AB-, nothing more.

So based on that, how is it possible to say Hancock is the strongest? IF Kuma and BB have shown 'till now by far better footage.

Rotten The Wizard
April 14, 2009, 09:05 AM
I don't get why ppl think: "kings haki = strongest". So far it is only said that it is rare. Doesn't necessary have to be "the strongest". It could be like bloodtype AB-, nothing more.

So based on that, how is it possible to say Hancock is the strongest? IF Kuma and BB have shown 'till now by far better footage.

well Based on the emphasis they all put on it then yes it does seem to be the strongest type. On a whole Island of haki users only 1 has it and she reigns supreme.

True we dont know much about haki yet but we Know 2 of the top 5 most powerful people in One Piece use Kings Haki(Shanks and Rayleigh). now Its already been established that by SENGOKU himself that Hancock is a powerful force, so much that the WG recruited her to be a Shichi as she got a bounty.

From what we know about haki it gives you the ability to read your opponents movements, amplifies the power of attacks tenfold(or more) and cancels DF abilities. Im sure there's more to it but given those you would still overlook Hancock?
BB is being put on a pedistal for his ability cancel his opponents df. Given that Isnt he screwed 6 ways to hell if hancock gets her hands on him? Haki users are not to be messed with in close range combat and like someone said pulling someone who's extremely good at close range combat towards you during a fight is not very smart.

and Ofcourse I'm basing all this on what has been shown about haki. Some points could be argued

RichardMNixon
April 14, 2009, 09:33 AM
Was it a clumsy way of putting it or did you really say right now that nobody who has a devil fruit has any chance against Blackbeard?

If Ace could fire up Blackbeard while he was pulling him, I don't see Enel having any trouble shooting out 100 mil volts lightning at him.


Nobody who relies on his devil fruit as much as Enel does has a chance against him (van Auger even said this); Lucci, Kaku, or Jyabura would be more of a challenge for BB. Enel is nothing special in terms of physical ability.
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/279/18/ One kick and he lies on the ground coughing up blood
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/281/18-19/


I think one point we really disagree on is that you're also enormously underestimating Ace, as if surviving Ace's attacks is no big deal but lightning is suddenly impossible. People were blown away that Ace was defeated.

And since when has strength in one piece correlated to size or any other reasonable parameter? Luffy is pretty shrimpy, are you saying he's weaker than the Franky Destroyers? Urouge was overpowering a Pacifista until it busted out the lasers, is Urouge stronger than Blackbeard?

http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/Will_of_D

Edit: I'd agree that King's Haki is probably the strongest, but we don't know yet precisely how it factors into combat. It would be very interesting to see if Sentoumaru was using haki or something else.

BlackHair
April 14, 2009, 09:52 AM
well Based on the emphasis they all put on it then yes it does seem to be the strongest type. On a whole Island of haki users only 1 has it and she reigns supreme.Well its rare after all, so one person on a island is expected, otherwise calling it rare would be stupid. Also she has a DF, that is definitely also part of her supreme status.

Beside the groupings of willpower such as "kings haki", there is also the volume. Means Luffy has probably a stronger/more volume than Hancock. So just coz she has the kings haki, doesn't have to mean that Hancock's haki is strong.

Anyway, I believe controlling haki isn't that difficult. In fact I believe most "strong" guys in the new world have it. So its more like a needed skill, if u want to be successful in the NW. I wouldn't be surprised, if the remaining Shich (including BB) would be able to use haki. Just my prediction though, don't have to be true.

btw Shanks and Ray kings haki? When was that said?

Anyway Hancock: Im not saying she is weak. Just like u said, Sengoku was talking highly of her. Apart from that, by just basing on her kings haki to say that she may be the strongest, you are overlooking the feats the other have shown so far.

Putting BB aside, Mwk is the final goal of Zoro. We know Zoro will be always slightly weaker than Luffy, who will end up as the strongest at the end of the story. Based on that, u can estimate Mwk's strenght, even though we haven't seen anything from him (yes nothing, chopping Kriegs ship is no footage, since mostly everyone can do that). Thus I can' see Hancock winning while fighting Mwk.

About Logia, generally everyone tends to fight with/in their element. Which makes their physical body over time more vulnerable, if they are hit. So imo that's the biggest weakness of Logia. BB won't have this one. While Enel, just like Richard (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1312444&postcount=211) has said, is physically weak. On the other hand Ace had good physical ability, got even complimented by Auger, even though he is a logia. If Ace has lost, then I can't see a clueless idiot as Enel winning.

Phase
April 14, 2009, 09:55 AM
Was it a clumsy way of putting it or did you really say right now that nobody who has a devil fruit has any chance against Blackbeard?

If Ace could fire up Blackbeard while he was pulling him, I don't see Enel having any trouble shooting out 100 mil volts lightning at him.


Um, no I didn't mean to imply that nobody with a DF has a chance against BB. However, the only one I suspect may be able to elude his vortex is Kuma, since I don't understand the circumstances behind his teleportation. I'm not saying that snagging someone with his vortex is an auto win or anything. It's just a pretty damn good way to eliminate DF powers from the fight. Foxy would be able to give BB problems if he wasn't so weak I think. Hancock and Doflamingo are both mysteries. Someone like Rob Lucci who might be able to rival BB without his DF powers would also be a good match for him.

The second part that you wrote is exactly what would happen I think. Enel would shoot whatever he could while he was being sucked in. I don't think it would be enough to drop BB though, and I don't think Enel has the capability to fight anywhere close to equally with BB once his lightning powers are gone.

Edit:

Like Luffy counters her Haki, it's not unlikely that other at the Shichibukai level can do it as well. Unless it takes a Haoshoku Haki (the one that Hancock and Luffy possess) to counter it and that alone.

I believe that Luffy was able to resist Hancock's powers because he didn't have what they called a "guilty heart." Basically, he wasn't thinking impure thoughts when he saw her. From what I can tell, Hancock is similar to sirens from Greek mythology, who seduce their opponents in order to kill them. Luffy only survived because of his innocence, he saw her naked and wasn't "moved in the slightest."

@Rotten: King's haki seems to be the ability to command people to do things according to the user's will. There is no evidence that Shanks or Rayleigh can use it.

Razh
April 14, 2009, 10:02 AM
I think one point we really disagree on is that you're also enormously underestimating Ace, as if surviving Ace's attacks is no big deal but lightning is suddenly impossible. People were blown away that Ace was defeated.

If you can't tell difference between the attacks Ace gave to Blackbeard and lightning strikes which Enel used to KO most of his opponents than it's really pointless.


And since when has strength in one piece correlated to size or any other reasonable parameter? Luffy is pretty shrimpy, are you saying he's weaker than the Franky Destroyers? Urouge was overpowering a Pacifista until it busted out the lasers, is Urouge stronger than Blackbeard?

Nobody said anything about the size being so important. Kuma was probably a monster even before he was turned into a cyborg. Now, he's probably among the few strongest characters in One Piece. And by that, I mean physical strength. Huge guy, turned into a cyborg, harder than steel.
And what about Urouge. Is it so impossible that he's stronger than Blackbeard in his buffed mode? Did you see his muscles? Damn! Why is it impossible that there are people who can have a greater physical strenght than Blackbeard?
So what, he gave a Pacifista a few good punches. Pacifista seemed undamaged after it. Those attacks obviously didn't cause enough damage to slow Pacifista down. That's also an indicator of Kuma's durability.

RichardMNixon
April 14, 2009, 10:45 AM
If you can't tell difference between the attacks Ace gave to Blackbeard and lightning strikes which Enel used to KO most of his opponents than it's really pointless.

So you're really saying Ace is weak? Just so we're clear on that.


Nobody said anything about the size being so important. Kuma was probably a monster even before he was turned into a cyborg. Based on what?
Now, he's probably among the few strongest characters in One Piece. And by that, I mean physical strength. Huge guy, turned into a cyborg, harder than steel.
And what about Urouge. Is it so impossible that he's stronger than Blackbeard in his buffed mode? Did you see his muscles? Damn! Why is it impossible that there are people who can have a greater physical strenght than Blackbeard?
So what, he gave a Pacifista a few good punches. Pacifista seemed undamaged after it. Those attacks obviously didn't cause enough damage to slow Pacifista down. That's also an indicator of Kuma's durability.

As I've said before, this is fiction. It has the shonen meme of the more you want something, the stronger you are. Blackbeard has the will and the D and that is where strength comes from in One Piece, not from huge metal bodies. Otherwise Wapol would be Pirate King by now.

Rotten The Wizard
April 14, 2009, 11:24 AM
Well its rare after all, so one person on a island is expected, otherwise calling it rare would be stupid. Also she has a DF, that is definitely also part of her supreme status.

Beside the groupings of willpower such as "kings haki", there is also the volume. Means Luffy has probably a stronger/more volume than Hancock. So just coz she has the kings haki, doesn't have to mean that Hancock's haki is strong.

btw Shanks and Ray kings haki? When was that said?

Anyway Hancock: Im not saying she is weak. Just like u said, Sengoku was talking highly of her. Apart from that, by just basing on her kings haki to say that she may be the strongest, you are overlooking the feats the other have shown so far.

P

You're just doing this for the sake of argument aren't you?
Oda has made Haki the next stepping stone for Luffy so why would he give it to someone else as well and make them weak as hell? Think about, her DF abilities are pretty lame (from what we've seen) it only works on noobs. Its hard to believe that her DF ability is what maker her powerful.

And about shanks and Rayleigh; The Kuja's identified Luffy's as king's haki after his 1 display of Haki burst now that being said its more than likely that only people with King's Haki can release a haki burst. Both shanks and Rayleigh have displayed that.

and I dont believe Hancock is the strongest(Mihawk is) I'm just trying to point out that she's no weakling and people seem to think BB is God. If he was as powerful as everyone seems to think He would've just Killed a Marine Admiral instead of becoming a WG puppet. That would've gave him instant fame in the pirate world. That's what he wants afterall, to be famous and reign supreme.

Razh
April 14, 2009, 11:52 AM
So you're really saying Ace is weak? Just so we're clear on that.

I said lightning devil fruit is stronger than fire devil fruit. Attacks are a lot faster and have more immediate attacks. Like when Blackbeard almost broke Ace's neck even after being hit by his fire attack. If he were shocked with high voltage lightning instead he wouldn't be able to do it.
Lightning DF is just stronger than fire DF. Oda probably thought so too.
At least I think so, since Enel ended up on the moon and it's unlikely that he'll ever come down to Grand Line or New World.


Based on what?

You meant Kuma's strenght before he became cyborg?
Well, apart from his build, which in One Piece means that he's really strong, there's also a former bounty of 296 million belli. Those aren't handed out like candy.


As I've said before, this is fiction. It has the shonen meme of the more you want something, the stronger you are. Blackbeard has the will and the D and that is where strength comes from in One Piece, not from huge metal bodies. Otherwise Wapol would be Pirate King by now.

No, it's not that simple.
Besides, you can talk about shonen in general as much as you like, but I'm talking about physical strength of individual characters. Like it or not, it's not always about the will to win. And cyborgs in most cases have a greater physical strength than humans.
What if Blackbeard were to fight a giant? Would he win just because he wants to become Pirate King real bad?
Urouge displayed some monstrous strength there. Maybe it was a DF and maybe not. I have no doubt in my mind that he's physically stronger than Blackbeard, but I also think that Blackbeard would have beaten him, because it's not all about physical strength.

Kuma has more than just physical strength.

BlackHair
April 14, 2009, 12:07 PM
Oda has made Haki the next stepping stone for Luffy so why would he give it to someone else as well and make them weak as hell? Think about, her DF abilities are pretty lame (from what we've seen) it only works on noobs. Its hard to believe that her DF ability is what maker her powerful.I'm not disagreeing with u on this. But I still think those groupings of "willpower" isn't based on power. I rather believe, that each haki has a different vibration/feeling, that's it.



And about shanks and Rayleigh; The Kuja's identified Luffy's as king's haki after his 1 display of Haki burst now that being said its more than likely that only people with King's Haki can release a haki burst. Both shanks and Rayleigh have displayed that.It was nowhere stated that only kings haki can let other faint. Adding to what I wrote above (different feeling/vibration), I believe every group of willpower (kings haki etc) have the same ability: letting ppl with low willpower faint, prediction, deactivate DF invulnerability etc.




and I dont believe Hancock is the strongest(Mihawk is) I'm just trying to point out that she's no weakling and people seem to think BB is God. If he was as powerful as everyone seems to think He would've just Killed a Marine Admiral instead of becoming a WG puppet. That would've gave him instant fame in the pirate world. That's what he wants afterall, to be famous and reign supreme.I have to apologize. I saw yesterday some1 saying that Hancock is the strongest. After merging the threads I saw ur posts about Hancock, so I assumed u were the one. My mistake.

About BB, I'm saying he is the strongest Shichi not the strongest invincible dude in the manga. Whether he can beat a Admiral or not is not the point. It's about overall battle power, I'm talking about the crew. If for example BB wanted to beat Kizaru on SS, he and his crew had to take on the Pacifistas, Sentomaru and Marine soldier (cannon fodder though). That's also the reason he took side with the WG in the current developments, cause he and his mere crew, couldn't possibly take on with the Whitebeard Pirates. He is not dumb, he can see his limits and he is acting according to that.
[hr]

I said lightning devil fruit is stronger than fire devil fruit. Attacks are a lot faster and have more immediate attacks. Like when Blackbeard almost broke Ace's neck even after being hit by his fire attack. If he were shocked with high voltage lightning instead he wouldn't be able to do it.
Lightning DF is just stronger than fire DF. Oda probably thought so too.
At least I think so, since Enel ended up on the moon and it's unlikely that he'll ever come down to Grand Line or New World.
Though Im not part of this conversation, If I may add my opinion: I do think BB could take Enel's voltage and still hit him, instead of being paralysed by electricity. But like I said before, it depends on how much voltage. BB endurance is high while Enel's not, I wouldn't be surprised he goes down by 1hit. About the moon part, I disagree with u, but my opinion on that isn't relevant anyway.

Also Enel had environmental advantages in SkyPia, like Croco in Alabasta. So if Enel should fight BB on the blue sea, he would be less impressive, as shown in SkyPia.

Rotten The Wizard
April 14, 2009, 12:23 PM
I'm not disagreeing with u on this. But I still think those groupings of "willpower" isn't based on power. I rather believe, that each haki has a different vibration/feeling, that's it.

It was nowhere stated that only kings haki can let other faint. Adding to what I wrote above (different feeling/vibration), I believe every group of willpower (kings haki etc) have the same ability: letting ppl with low willpower faint, prediction, deactivate DF invulnerability etc.


I have to apologize. I saw yesterday some1 saying that Hancock is the strongest. After merging the threads I saw ur posts about Hancock, so I assumed u were the one. My mistake.

About BB, I'm saying he is the strongest Shichi not the strongest invincible dude in the manga. Whether he can beat a Admiral or not is not the point. It's about overall battle power, I'm talking about the crew. If for example BB wanted to beat Kizaru on SS, he and his crew had to take on the Pacifistas, Sentomaru and Marine soldier (cannon fodder though). That's also the reason he took side with the WG in the current developments, cause he and his mere crew, couldn't possibly take on with the Whitebeard Pirates. He is not dumb, he can see his limits and he is acting according to that.


You make a good point about the different types of Haki but I'm going by Occam's. King's haki is alot more powerful than regular haki, that is the simplest explanation.
Lets agree to disagree here

Now, My vote is for hancock and Mihawk being the strongest. It's hard to match up a swordsman against a fighter. We know for a fact that Hancock is a close range fighter. In Amazon lily "Strength is beauty".

BB's DF probably has no limit but I dont think he's even achieved 50% of its potential yet and for that In my eyes he's not the strongest. Not yet. Oda is building him up to be the ultimate Villain to beat but just like luffy he has to get stronger and gain status gradually.
In a way Luffy and Blackbeard are very similar; big dreamers, love food. love to laugh and both D's. BB just uses different Methods to get to the same goal.

In putting BB below Hancock and Mihawk I'm not downplaying his power at all I just think he has alot of room for improvement.


And as for the enel argument. Its really hard for me to picture BB or anyone for that matter standing up after taking a hit of 100 MILLION volts and jumping right back up. BB using vortex on enel would be suicide imo, I doubt a superheated trident to the chest would feel very good.

Phase
April 14, 2009, 12:46 PM
her DF abilities are pretty lame (from what we've seen) it only works on noobs. Its hard to believe that her DF ability is what maker her powerful.


Ok tackling this first. There's no way her DF is lame. Vice Admiral Momonga had to stab his hand to avoid petrification. Hancock was extraordinarily shocked that it didn't work on Luffy, as if this was the first time ever. Luffy was unaffected due to his innocence, not because he was "strong." Finally, the petrification isn't the limit of Hancock's DF powers. Her "pistol kiss" shows that she has more up her sleeve that she hasn't shown yet.




And about shanks and Rayleigh; The Kuja's identified Luffy's as king's haki after his 1 display of Haki burst now that being said its more than likely that only people with King's Haki can release a haki burst. Both shanks and Rayleigh have displayed that.


Let's look at this single burst of haki. Mariegold (I think, kinda lazy to double check) was bringing Margarite down at full speed. Luffy shouted at her to stop, unleashing his haki. Mariegold and Sandersonia looked surprised, but not like they were passing out. Due to the velocity at which Margarite was falling, the only way to save her would have been if Mariegold consciously tried to stop herself. Had she just lost consciousness, Margarite would have gone crashing into the ground. Therefore, the king's haki clearly has some "command" aspect attached to it. We see frequenty that Hancock makes rediculous demands which people follow blindly. People passing out is likely just a general thing related to haki, not the king's haki specifically.




and I dont believe Hancock is the strongest(Mihawk is) I'm just trying to point out that she's no weakling and people seem to think BB is God. If he was as powerful as everyone seems to think He would've just Killed a Marine Admiral instead of becoming a WG puppet. That would've gave him instant fame in the pirate world. That's what he wants afterall, to be famous and reign supreme.

That's what he wants in the end. He said he planned out an entire path to become the pirate king. The first step was to obtain the darkness fruit, and the second step was to become a Shichibukai. He wouldn't have become a Shichibukai by trying to hunt down an admiral. I'm not making any statements about if he could do it or not. Doing so wouldn't meet his plan regardless.

Razh
April 14, 2009, 01:46 PM
One thing I forgot to say concerns Ace. I gotta say, I expected to see more when the fight began. I don't think he's weak. But he was shown too helpless. Yes, Auge commented on his physical strength so that we wouldn't think that Blackbeard won easily. But the effect would have been better if we actually saw Ace kicking Blackbeard in his stomach or punching him in the face.
This way, it looked almost like Blackbeard won an easy battle.


About the moon part, I disagree with u, but my opinion on that isn't relevant anyway.


Most of the stuff we wrote about Enel isn't really relevant.

Kaiser Will
April 14, 2009, 04:36 PM
Oh my god! Do I really have to go through this again? DF are nullfied only while Blackbeard is touching their opponents. Pulling your opponent towards you makes sense if you're stronger than him. What is the use of pulling a super strong cyborg towards you? So he can beat the crap out of you easier?
Kuma wasn't turned into a cyborg by a world's greatest mind who is 500 years ahead of his time to be weakling. I'm pretty sure that Kuma is stronger than Blackbeard.
Blackbeard, pulling Kuma, who is both bigger and stronger, towards him would be a great way to lose a fight.

And why are you mentioning Blackbeard's crew? We're discussing here the strength of each individual Shichibukai.

I think that you are underrating BB, that's it.
I can imagine him handling Kuma very well, personal opinion, his DF is, for me, the one, he can make a dark hole, that thing can suck anything, even Kuma himself, and just like BB did to that city, he can do that to Kuma, crush him in a million pieces.
So what that a genius makes Kuma, he isn't the one who is fighting, so in battlefield Vegapunk is useless.
Another thing BB already proved that he is capable because he already defeated 2 of 4 Top Commanders of WB, and one them is killed.

Who said that? Just because the others Shichibukais doesn't have a crew that doesn't mean that we should exclude BB own crew!

Gecko Moria
April 14, 2009, 05:00 PM
I think that you are underrating BB, that's it.
I can imagine him handling Kuma very well, personal opinion, his DF is, for me, the one, he can make a dark hole, that thing can suck anything, even Kuma himself, and just like BB did to that city, he can do that to Kuma, crush him in a million pieces.
So what that a genius makes Kuma, he isn't the one who is fighting, so in battlefield Vegapunk is useless.
Another thing BB already proved that he is capable because he already defeated 2 of 4 Top Commanders of WB, and one them is killed.

Who said that? Just because the others Shichibukais doesn't have a crew that doesn't mean that we should exclude BB own crew!

It depends how strong Kuma's cyborg body is (and it seems pretty strong since he was able to take numerous hits from Sanji and Zoro, unfazed).

But Kuma's Devil Fruit powers extend to the point where he can deflect anything (including intangible objects like air). So, who is to say that he is not able to defy gravity and darkness.

His ability to move at the speed of light is another advantage as Blackbeard does not strike me as being incredibly fast. Kuma would be able to "side-step" Blackbeard and continually fire his "Pressure Cannons" at him until he drops and Blackbeard would not be able to keep up.

Furthermore, I do not think Vegapunk's knowledge is useless in the battlefield. He is the Marines' chief scientist after all, he would not have that job if he is redundant when it comes to military technology.

Kaiser Will
April 14, 2009, 08:57 PM
Well Gecko your arguments seems very plausible to me. But gravity is the universal law the rules the universe, I do know that OP didn't stick to that but air is very different from gravity. And a dark hole, just for the record, is a huge amount of matter that have a enormous gravity field that suck everything and turn this to matter again.

And what I tryed to say about Vegapunk is even a genious like him would be useless if theirs soldiers don't use the tecnology properly. We don't know the full extension of the Pacifista program, even Kuma say that it's incomplete.

Xenos3421
April 14, 2009, 09:30 PM
MULTI-QUOTE MAYHEM!!


Eneru is too fast for most of the characters in One Piece to keep up with (except Kizaru and Kuma etc.). Aside from his god-like speed his devastating attacks are practically fatal in one attack as well. In fact, there are most likely not many characters in One Piece that could even fight on par with Eneru. Blackbeard would not be able to draw Eneru in with his gravity due to Eneru being too fast . And though one attack from Eneru may not be enough to take down Blackbeard, more attacks will. Luffy had another stroke of luck that his rubber state was immune to lightning/electricity.

Enel could move faster then tachyon it wont matter against BB's darkness.
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/441/11/
It's his ability to pull fruit users towards him. Enel would fly straight towards him, and if he had any reaction it would end just like it did with ace-
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/441/15/
BB would still get a hit in, Enel might too, but it's not like that could do anything other then beef up BB's next attack.
----


It's possible that Blackbeard would have beaten Enel I guess. But it would be really hard. Enel probably has the strongest fruit there is. Overall I mean. Attack power and speed by itself are more than enough. When you add the ability to hear thoughts it's just too much.

Logia are quite insane, but i'm glad we can agree Blackbeard would win.
But the strongest fruit? Hmmm, i wonder..

It's a shame that we don't know that much about other Shichibukai abilties.
Doflamingo's ability is interesting. The people he controls retain their senses but can't do anything to control their limbs. I don't think it's some simple strings at work. Doflamingo couldn't make people clench their fists by pulling strings. It's almost like he controls nervous impulses.
I'm curious about his fighting capabilities. He doesn't strike me as an unarmed fighter. First time I saw him, I thought he was some swordsman, but there is no sword, unless he's hiding it in those feathers.

I'm still hoping for a puppet-puppet no mi or i dunno the "single molecular chain nano steel thread-single molecular chain nano steel thread no mi"

Y'know Legato Bluesummers' trick.

THAT would be "the strongest" fruit right f'n there.


In my eyes DoFlamingo is a weakling until proven strong. The power to control people? C'mon I'm pretty sure that doesnt work against strong willed people. Im not sure thats the scope of his abilities he may be able to control inanimate objects as well.

MAYBE he's a psychic. Anyone ever thought of that? That would be really interesting.
Or maybe its telekinesis

Well he has only ever used it on weaklings- except for those Marine officers who were at the meeting, i don't know if they're named but if they're gonna be at a shichibukai meeting i'm guessing they ain't pantywaists.

a former bounty like 340 million berries SCREAMS strong AND merciless to me. but that's my dead-ass though...

Gecko Moria
April 14, 2009, 11:14 PM
Well Gecko your arguments seems very plausible to me. But gravity is the universal law the rules the universe, I do know that OP didn't stick to that but air is very different from gravity. And a dark hole, just for the record, is a huge amount of matter that have a enormous gravity field that suck everything and turn this to matter again.

And what I tryed to say about Vegapunk is even a genious like him would be useless if theirs soldiers don't use the tecnology properly. We don't know the full extension of the Pacifista program, even Kuma say that it's incomplete.

Glad you think my arguments are reasonable :amuse
And while gravity and black holes are very different from air we have yet to see the full extent of Kuma's powers (even currently they are pretty awesome) so he most likely can deflect them.



Enel could move faster then tachyon it wont matter against BB's darkness.
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/441/11/
It's his ability to pull fruit users towards him. Enel would fly straight towards him, and if he had any reaction it would end just like it did with ace-
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/441/15/
BB would still get a hit in, Enel might too, but it's not like that could do anything other then beef up BB's next attack.


Blackbeard's black hole vortex ability does not work at a 360 degree angle. He can only draw in objects in front of him. I doubt Eneru would be foolish enough to stand right in front of him after he sees Blackbeard's powers. And because Eneru can move extremely fast he will get out of range and then attack Blackbeard.

Xenos3421
April 15, 2009, 12:13 AM
Blackbeard's black hole vortex ability does not work at a 360 degree angle. He can only draw in objects in front of him. I doubt Eneru would be foolish enough to stand right in front of him after he sees Blackbeard's powers. And because Eneru can move extremely fast he will get out of range and then attack Blackbeard.

I honestly think your overestimating Enel's ability to move out of the way of an attack that, using the AWESOME POWER of BlackBeard's legs, can be aimed in any direction.

and other then that there are 2 problems with your point, my friend.

1. "...foolish enough to stand right in front of him after he sees Blackbeard's powers."

rrrrright, except for
here
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/279/17/
here
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/280/12/
here
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/298/06-07/
oh and here, it seems
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/298/12-13/

Yeah!! Enel totally can lightning dodge whenever he wants, clearly he did all those times...oh wait.. he didn't.... he just sat there and got smacked around ..so... He does stand still??
Well, i guess BB'll would have no trouble catching a moment where he could just draw Enel in and pummel him to death.

And 2, "...(enel)will get out of range and then attack Blackbeard."

Hold on, let's not forget who has the advantage using the big blast attacks!

and that isssss BlackBeard.

Yup yup. Want proof??
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/441/19/
The attack he uses to beat the sun down.
(an as of yet)
Not named attack thats bigger than Ace's strike and just look that panel and tell me you don't think he could replicate that move anytime he wanted to finish a fight.

Enel needs to be high up in the sky and have a giant flying golden ship to make the Advent of Thunder.

BB just needs his bare hands. thats it.

ihateyou1
April 15, 2009, 03:43 AM
well enel's physical body isn't really as strong as luffy's body or bb's body but hey the only one who can defeat enel is luffy. not BB or any other shichi... it was even said in the anime right. it was all pure bad luck for enel having to face luffy. and enel can hear thoughts or read mind..or whatever... and that ability will always put you one step ahead of your enemy. so i think in a BB vs enel fight enel will definitely win! and i think it was said in the BB vs ace fight that BB will receive a greater damage when hit as an effect of the df he ate. so imo if BB is hit by enel's 200 000 000 volt of pure electricity of course his toast! and hey enel can travel with a speed of light so i think he can fight anywhere even on the sea or on land. before BB can even draw him with his power BB is already toast because enel can read it.

Razh
April 15, 2009, 04:32 AM
I think that you are underrating BB, that's it.
I can imagine him handling Kuma very well, personal opinion, his DF is, for me, the one, he can make a dark hole, that thing can suck anything, even Kuma himself, and just like BB did to that city, he can do that to Kuma, crush him in a million pieces.
So what that a genius makes Kuma, he isn't the one who is fighting, so in battlefield Vegapunk is useless.
Another thing BB already proved that he is capable because he already defeated 2 of 4 Top Commanders of WB, and one them is killed.

Who said that? Just because the others Shichibukais doesn't have a crew that doesn't mean that we should exclude BB own crew!

I'm not sure whether Blackbeard will use his ability like that. Sure he could kill everybody that way.
I think he can't just suck in everyone he wants. He gave a clue how his powers work when he absorbed that town. He had to cover the entire space with the field of darkness. He didn't just open a hole in his belly and suck in everything.
Maybe he'll be able to use it like that, but then he would be too strong, so I doubt that.

About Kuma and Pacifistas who I believe have about the same strength and endurance.
People are underestimating their durability. Sanji's kicks caused more damage to Sanji than to Kuma. Sure, SH managed to destroy one Pacifista. It was an entire group effort, and they gave it all they had. He fell down from 9 SH strongest attacks.
Kuma is special, due to his DF and cybernetic upgrades. It's not just Blackbeard. Probably the majority of characters would have trouble beating him in battle.

Blackbeard may be a monster, but he's not the strongest (and by that I mean physically) character in One Piece just because he's meant to be Luffy's worst enemy. The guy is still working on his strength. He's not ready to openly go after the title of Pirate King.

I'm not a Kuma fan boy. I'm looking at this objectively.
We saw Blackbeard punching Ace, and almost breaking his neck. He sent him flying both times. Now remember Sanji's kicks that have a tendency to send people flying. Those worked amazingly against both Kuma and Pacifista.
So, reply all you want, but Blackbeard couldn't punch his way to victory against Kuma.

Kaiser Will
April 15, 2009, 09:09 AM
Well now that you demonstred your arguments in that way I can deny that you are right in certain points.

But my belief is that BB will be like the last enemy for Luffy in the Pirate King race.

RichardMNixon
April 15, 2009, 09:23 AM
well enel's physical body isn't really as strong as luffy's body or bb's body but hey the only one who can defeat enel is luffy. not BB or any other shichi... it was even said in the anime right.
Wrong. Enel said that and Luffy himself said just the opposite.

it was all pure bad luck for enel having to face luffy. and enel can hear thoughts or read mind..or whatever... and that ability will always put you one step ahead of your enemy. so i think in a BB vs enel fight enel will definitely win! and i think it was said in the BB vs ace fight that BB will receive a greater damage when hit as an effect of the df he ate. so imo if BB is hit by enel's 200 000 000 volt of pure electricity of course his toast! and hey enel can travel with a speed of light
Wrong, its about 0.02% of c
so i think he can fight anywhere even on the sea or on land. before BB can even draw him with his power BB is already toast because enel can read it.
Didn't stop him from getting pummeled by Luffy several times. Not to mention that knowing your enemy is about to make a black hole doesn't mean you're able to not get sucked into it.


We saw Blackbeard punching Ace, and almost breaking his neck. He sent him flying both times. Now remember Sanji's kicks that have a tendency to send people flying. Those worked amazingly against both Kuma and Pacifista.
So, reply all you want, but Blackbeard couldn't punch his way to victory against Kuma.

This is what I'm saying: you are hugely underestimating Ace. According to Luffy, Ace is stronger than he is. It'd be like if I kicked out some dude on the street, you kicked out Chuck Norris, and I said that made our kicks equal. Sanji's kicks and Blackbeard's punches are not in the same league. I don't think he'd have an easy time with Kuma, but I still believe he'd win.

Razh
April 15, 2009, 10:01 AM
Just one thing. Luffy said that Ace was stronger than him, during the Alabasta arc. Luffy has progressef somewhat since then. And Ace couldn't have been that much stronger than Luffy, unless he wasn't putting all he had while they wrestled arms.
Also, Oda in my opinion didn't do justice to Ace. He should have been able to at least make Blackbeard's nose bleed. And that big knife of his seems to have been only for show.

And I think Sanji's well placed kick would have about same chance as Blackbeard's fist in breaking Ace's neck.

I just think Blackbeard wouldn't be able to beat Kuma fighting like he fought with Ace. There are too many different things Kuma can do.

Xenos3421
April 15, 2009, 12:34 PM
I just thought of a funny joke:

Kuma's flying air paw thing is bassically like this giant ball of air pressure reflected, right?
It's a "force" based damage that has no elemental association.
And if he ever fought BB he'd probably use it sooooo

Kuma casts magic missile and attacks the darkness!!

yohohoho! that's as bad as a skull joke.
-----

Seriously now if Kuma went up against Blackbeard i'm pretty sure he'd lose.

I already wrote about BB's blast attack, so let's look at Kuma!!

Like i've been saying, Kuma's a sweetie, and i'm saying that because of all the past enemies that get foreshadowed as sweeties ALWAYS help the mugi's out but get beat easily when the shit hits the fan.
Examples could include, Hacchi, Robin, Aokiji... Y'know a "enemy" that'll help out mugiwaras and kinda shows themselves as a real nice character-
They get soft and in a fight somebody more merciless then them will down them in 10 seconds.

Obviously this hasn't happened to Aokiji or Kuma- but Robin vs crocodile?? Hachi vs Charlos (it wasn't really a fight but he did take him down in 1 hit)

Kuma's doomed to get rolled on.. If only so we get an idea how powerful his opponent(whoever it may be) is. y'know how that works.

Razh
April 15, 2009, 01:15 PM
While I understand what you're saying, you can't contribute to the discussion with the "Kuma is a sweetie so he'll lose against a meanie" argument. That's plot related.
This should be discussed objectively. Without crap such as; bad guys usually kill good guys and Blackbeard has been foreshadowed as a last opponent.

And Kuma's not a sweetie. He had a reason for leaving SH alive. That's what we're going to find out eventually.
But how many other pirates has he beaten like flies? He was called a Tyrant for a reason. I remember thinking "How the fuck are SH going to survive this monster?" when Kuma showed what he can do on Thriller Bark. Something unexpected happened. He decided he will let them live. There are probably a lot more cases in which he didn't leave anybody standing and alive.

Tsukisama
April 15, 2009, 10:06 PM
At this point, I could really say who is the strongest of the Shichibukai, as I think any of them could be the strongest based on what we currently know. (Well, I actually feel rather confident that Crocodile wouldn't be the most powerful, but there is still some room for error on that, I guess. :oh) I do, however, know whom I would like to be the most powerful, and that would be Hancock.

It would be awesome if she were the most powerful Shichibukai. It is so rare that women are the most powerful of any group (that isn't exclusively female) in manga, and so this would be a nice turn of events. The theme of her power (love/charm/beauty/desire) is not something that is very commonly used by people of immense power (unlike a powerful swordsman, killer android, shadow master, mind control/puppeteer, etc.), making her seem the most interesting to me.

Xenos3421
April 15, 2009, 10:50 PM
While I understand what you're saying, you can't contribute to the discussion with the "Kuma is a sweetie so he'll lose against a meanie" argument. That's plot related.
This should be discussed objectively. Without crap such as; bad guys usually kill good guys and Blackbeard has been foreshadowed as a last opponent.

And Kuma's not a sweetie. He had a reason for leaving SH alive. That's what we're going to find out eventually.
But how many other pirates has he beaten like flies? He was called a Tyrant for a reason. I remember thinking "How the fuck are SH going to survive this monster?" when Kuma showed what he can do on Thriller Bark. Something unexpected happened. He decided he will let them live. There are probably a lot more cases in which he didn't leave anybody standing and alive.

And why not? It's a perfectly valid point.

And i've using the term "sweetie" to describe Kuma ironically since he was introduced as the TYRANT kuma and acted like an unstoppable badass, beat everyone to shit, but let them survive because of Zoro and Sanji's shows of loyalty.

If you recall this situation shares some similarities of when Crocodile skewered Luffy and left him for dead; and who came to his rescue? The "evil" ms all sunday.
Who, at the time, was crazy mysterious with the whole "you with the name D" crap??
Member what happened when she fought Croc?

I'm Saying that even though he's called "tyrant" it's just a nickname.

And as of meow, (super troopers is on sorry) He has shown that he has a GIANT great BIG soft spot for the mugiwaras.

That is undeniable.

Kuma does something sweet - he's a sweetie.

By the way, Razh, what did you mean by
"That's plot related,"
??? that part didn't make sense to me?

Gecko Moria
April 16, 2009, 03:43 AM
And why not? It's a perfectly valid point.

And i've using the term "sweetie" to describe Kuma ironically since he was introduced as the TYRANT kuma and acted like an unstoppable badass, beat everyone to shit, but let them survive because of Zoro and Sanji's shows of loyalty.

If you recall this situation shares some similarities of when Crocodile skewered Luffy and left him for dead; and who came to his rescue? The "evil" ms all sunday.
Who, at the time, was crazy mysterious with the whole "you with the name D" crap??
Member what happened when she fought Croc?

I'm Saying that even though he's called "tyrant" it's just a nickname.

And as of meow, (super troopers is on sorry) He has shown that he has a GIANT great BIG soft spot for the mugiwaras.

That is undeniable.

Kuma does something sweet - he's a sweetie.

By the way, Razh, what did you mean by
"That's plot related,"
??? that part didn't make sense to me?

I wouldn't exactly call Kuma is "sweetie" because he spared the lives of two people who showed intense loyalty. I would call that honor. Maybe it's because he knows Dragon and decided to show some mercy to his son's crew.

The nickname of "Tyrant Kuma" is not given out for fun. It is because we have not actually seen the atrocious deeds that I think you believe he is soft. I realize that he has saved the Strawhats in two perilous situations now but that may be because he (like Rayleigh) believes in the new generation and does not what to see them finished off so quickly. Though seemingly loyal to the World Government, Kuma is a mysterious character who I think has divided loyalties, since it has evidently been shown he does not comply with "Absolute Justice" but a law of his own (similar to the other Shichibukai).

Xenos3421
April 16, 2009, 02:44 PM
I wouldn't exactly call Kuma is "sweetie" because he spared the lives of two people who showed intense loyalty. I would call that honor. Maybe it's because he knows Dragon and decided to show some mercy to his son's crew.

The nickname of "Tyrant Kuma" is not given out for fun. It is because we have not actually seen the atrocious deeds that I think you believe he is soft. I realize that he has saved the Strawhats in two perilous situations now but that may be because he (like Rayleigh) believes in the new generation and does not what to see them finished off so quickly. Though seemingly loyal to the World Government, Kuma is a mysterious character who I think has divided loyalties, since it has evidently been shown he does not comply with "Absolute Justice" but a law of his own (similar to the other Shichibukai).

and I agree with you completely! That second paragraph is 100% dead-on!!

however, I'm looking at this a bit differently then a couple of you still and i'd like to try and articulate what exactly i'm talking about, and that is:

A non-antagonist type of Shichibukai!!!

Something that, Before 485 was but a pipe dream thought up late at night followed with a snicker and a, "yeah right!! like that'd ever happen!!"

But YES! Kuma started a new thing!!

Because ever since the baratie- for more than 470+ chapters we knew about the shichibukai, and wrote them off as dogs of the government and eventual would-be opponents for Luffy to crush.

Doflamingo always came across as this scheaming evil bastard, Mihawk is just Zoro's endgame, and crocodile, moria, and Blackbeard are all decidedly Antagonists!

Until kuma opened the door to the predicament we're in now.

A shichibukai ally, Hancock.
And don't get me started with how Jimbei turned out (a 180 from arlong and what i was expecting)

Random thought, if they made a Kuma plushy doll i would get one for every room of my house!! Wouldn't you get one for your kid??

kkck
April 16, 2009, 04:57 PM
^Maybe kuma was given an ironic nickname:p

Gecko Moria
April 17, 2009, 05:24 AM
and I agree with you completely! That second paragraph is 100% dead-on!!

however, I'm looking at this a bit differently then a couple of you still and i'd like to try and articulate what exactly i'm talking about, and that is:

A non-antagonist type of Shichibukai!!!

Something that, Before 485 was but a pipe dream thought up late at night followed with a snicker and a, "yeah right!! like that'd ever happen!!"

But YES! Kuma started a new thing!!

Because ever since the baratie- for more than 470+ chapters we knew about the shichibukai, and wrote them off as dogs of the government and eventual would-be opponents for Luffy to crush.

Doflamingo always came across as this scheaming evil bastard, Mihawk is just Zoro's endgame, and crocodile, moria, and Blackbeard are all decidedly Antagonists!

Until kuma opened the door to the predicament we're in now.

A shichibukai ally, Hancock.
And don't get me started with how Jimbei turned out (a 180 from arlong and what i was expecting)

Random thought, if they made a Kuma plushy doll i would get one for every room of my house!! Wouldn't you get one for your kid??

I'm pleased I managed to clear that up.


^Maybe kuma was given an ironic nickname:p

Maybe...But I think the fact that he seems so loyal to the World Government and helped out the Strawhats in dire situations makes him soft. We have not had a complete look at his history.

beastboy
April 23, 2009, 06:31 PM
I think that he is a revolutionary with the mission of:
-Save mugiwara no luffy in thriller bark (if anybody else appeared there luffy would be death)
- Sent luffy to an island where he would be sent to save ace, distracting the WG.
- Try to be the one fighting WB and in the H hour Dragon apeear from beyond.

WELL I end up dicovering thar Dragon is a lelouch v2


@on-topic:
I don't thin that mihawk __________zoro
BB________________Luffy

I think is
mihawk-zoro
shanks-luffy

Cause mihawk isn't a real villain is just someone that zoro promissed to fight, just like luffy promised shanks.
And I can't think that in the end luffy will not fight shanks so BB isn't that bad ass, at least yet.
I think that I prefered a BB doll than a kuma doll, cause I don like paws.

BetaRuler
April 25, 2009, 08:56 AM
My evaluation of powers...

Sir Crocodile
Could be compared to the likes of Shuda from Rave, Shuda was first defeated of the 6 whatever, but came back alot later and alot stronger, so may Crocodile also redeem himself and show powers that could rival mihawkes or Kuma's, he was a Shichi because he was dangerous. His fighting level is probably above the average Shichi, and he knows how to build a dangerous organisation that doesn't even hold a hint of trust within itself.

Gecko Moria
A lazy louse, after his fight with that Yonkou, he's still strong, but probably one of the weakest, with his crew he's another dangerous kind of Shichi.
He may have potential to become even stronger now too, if he collects many shadows again, before when he tried that absorbing shadows trick against Luffy, he was too already quite beat up, but he probably has a better understanding of how to do it again now and to become really strong like how Luffy powered up, it may even reveal more new shadow powers to him, imagine making his own shadow bigger by absorbing other shadows into himself, maybe more than 1 shadow clone of himself that he could switch with, if Oda wished, Moria's shadow skills could be almost potentially endless.

Bartholomew Kuma
Obviously another dangerous pirate, his fighting style is almost cute but brutal, he also seems somewhat obediant but with fickle loyalties or obligations.

Donquixote Doflamingo
Possibly already as powerful as a Yonkou, he probably has sub organisations with funds pouring into him from all over the place and he probably has a long reach across the word, as for his own combat capabilities, I'd judge his fighting level about average, he's probably a Shichi because of how much he controls, unless he has other powers we've yet to see.

Dracule Mihawk
Strong, the greatest swordsmen in the world should deserve another title, I'd judge him to be semi dangerous, I don't reckon he was much of a pirate to begin with, perhaps he became one for killing many other strong people, probably while honing his abilities. Another dangerous Shichi

Boa Hancock
A rank given only to her legend I believe, given she comes from a legendary island of women, and acts like a medusa, obviously she and her pirates legend would spark a little fear in people and the world government would approach her to make her a Shichi, a rank befitting such a legendary kind of person, regardless of their fighting level. Thus her rank is given to her for that, she isn't so much dangerous as she is legendary.

Jimbei
I would believe him to be strongest of the fishmen left, as hard as their existance seems to be in this world, but I would judge his fighting strength still comes to about the average level of the shichi.

Blackbeard (Marshall D. Teach)
An about to become legend for achieving things in a different order to the other Shichi, his fighting level is dangerous in a totally different way as he isn't an almost invincible to attacks but moreso a potentially horrifically destructive being (if that makes sense), he is probably one of the most dangerous yet below average on how much power he really posesses, but is looking to gain power through his latest actions, since power is now what he needs to match his destructive abilities.
Also as for BB's extent of his dark powers, whats to stop him swallowing some one up with his powers like he did to the town? He wasn't aiming to do it to Ace because he wanted to capture Ace for his plan to defeat Whitebeard before. But if he's not worrying about killing his target, don't you think he could be more dangerous? He could just swallow Kuma up going through your convo's and spit him right out half chewed up like that town.

Ranks may also be given to others like the VA, not because of their fighting levels, but because of how efficiant they are, they might follow orders to the letter and carry them out well with well commanded troops, they might have adopted the navy's or world governments philosophies and act perfectly according to them, gaining favour among their superiors, but lack any fighting ability whatsoever, perhaps like CP9's leader at Enies Lobby (forgot his name now, the son with the metal mask).
Also personalities can decide how strong many are, just in the eyes of the viewer or the creater...
If I tried to rank em by fighting level alone now I'd go something like this
BlackBeard
Mihawke & Kuma
Croc & Doflamingo (hairs behind Mihawke and Kuma)
Jimbei (I mean the marines really didn't seem that bothered about the commotion he caused so they probably pacified him with little ease)
Moria & Boa

But including their other powers besides fighting abilities, this is like their influence, reach, legends and subordinates.
Doflamingo (Id say he easily has more power than any of the others if he goes around subdueing isles and has hidden sub organisations that even the strawhats have unknowingly bumped into twice, he has alot of wealth)
Croco (when he used to have Baroque works he had alot of wealth and power too, tho right now he's lower here as BB)
Moria & Boa (both have strong crews, even if Moria's was recently destroyed he could rebuild it just as strong as it was before, minus the Oz dream)
BlackBeard (just above Ku, Mi and Jim, for his diverse crew, they seem like people he can rely on)
Kuma & Mihawke & Jimbei (I mean we havent even seen if they have any crews yet have we? I'd imagine they don't always go around alone, perhaps they have strong friends they can call for help if their local, but they seem like warriors that don't walk around relying on allies to back them up)

Sorry for long post ass XD but none of the Shichi can be considered weak even amongst themselves for what they might lack in 1 side, they seem to make up for in another, in combat level, BB might be the strongest, but he lacks influence which he's building up now. It just becomes more of an arguement over who you like the most really still though, so I'll just vote for my fav, Crocco, even if you don't think highly of him.

Yans86
April 25, 2009, 09:43 AM
It's sad to see Croodile so underestimated,n the end Luffy won only for plotkai.........that water/blood weakness was so farfetched at a certain point that to misjudge him is a big insult!!!he could absorb the water from an entire palace and he had problem with two drops on himself????that was total B******T!!!!

Even now,if u put in a ring either Luffy,Zoro,Sanji as strog as they r compared to the past Luffy,they would not have a chance to beat him!!!Except for Enel,Mihawk,Aokiji,Kizaru and for a certain extent Moria,I can't see any of the past enemy beat Crocodile :-P

ex.
Lucci vs Crocodile.................Crocodile would kick his ass blind folded!

cheaptrick
April 27, 2009, 10:21 AM
@betaruler where did you read that hancock got the shichibukai title because of the legend surrounding her tribe?? she got that title because she proved to be very strong earning her 80 milions bounty in no time.. the whole medusa thing was made up only to fool her fellow kujas pirates and all the amazons , not to gain more notoriety. for what we know she could even be stronger than mihawk and kuma and if we speak of lame powers, i think doflamingo is the one with apparently no fighting skills other than his "puppet" df ability

Tsukisama
April 29, 2009, 07:49 PM
@betaruler where did you read that hancock got the shichibukai title because of the legend surrounding her tribe?? she got that title because she proved to be very strong earning her 80 milions bounty in no time.. the whole medusa thing was made up only to fool her fellow kujas pirates and all the amazons , not to gain more notoriety. for what we know she could even be stronger than mihawk and kuma and if we speak of lame powers, i think doflamingo is the one with apparently no fighting skills other than his "puppet" df ability

Well, Doflamingo has never seemed to me to be that physically menacing of a character. From my interpretation of his character, it seemed like his greatest strengths would be in his dealings with people. He has his hands in all sorts of underhanded dealings and businesses, and he uses social, political, and economic influence to control people. Thus, I have also thought that his DF ability was just an interesting way of underscoring this aspect of his character.

So, while I do think Doflamingo is probably fairly powerful, I think his greatest strength/power resides in his influence, which is a good thing IMO. I am glad that one of the Shichibukai is powerful in a different way than just being overtly powerful and strong. Having powerful socioeconomic influence can be just as menacing as being physically powerful, and it makes his character more realistic IMO as the villainous boss/businessman character.

zerocooldx
April 29, 2009, 08:24 PM
Dracule Mihawk is obviously one of the great powers in One Piece, not only by his "Greatest Swordsman In the World" title. But hes also someone who sparred, i would asume evenly with Shanks, who himself is one of the Yonkou. Also hes the only Shichibukai that we really haven't seen any of his abilities or techniques. He was one of the first important figures to be introduced in the series, yet hes probably the most mysterious as well.

Makki
April 30, 2009, 06:40 AM
I think it is hard if not impossible to compare the Shichis because everyone has unique power.

If they would fight against each other these fights would probably take years.

We should compare like this:
1. Which fruit or personality among the shichibukai is the most impressive one?
2. Which Shichibukai looks mentally stronger?
3. Independent or having a big crew, relationship to the MHQ


If I answer this questions then,
1. I think Doflamingo has the most impressive fruit (if its the control of people's movement) but also I like Kuma's behaviour and power.
2. Definitely Kuma.
3. Kuma and Mihawk seem to be fairly independent. They are also hard to control from the World Government. But Kuma looks more trustworthy than the others. Blackbeard also comes here and Doflamingo for probably having a huge influence in the world.

So my result is after all. Kuma.
I don't think Blackbeard is that strong. Blackbeard just shows people that if you rely too much on your DF then your a fool. And Ace seems to be nothing without his DF.

monkey D luffy
April 30, 2009, 07:48 AM
in my opinion this is the order:
1/2 mihawk or bb
3 kuma
4 doflamingo
5 jinbei
6/7 hencock or croco
8 moria
explantions:
1/2 is kinda obvious, i do think though that mihawk is stronger and surely he is more honorable, and in one piece the honorable are always the stronger people.
kuma is 3rd because of his hex DF, i think that he can use the technique to draw out fatigue on himself too so he can fight on and on, if he can touch the person he is fighting it can be also instant death or capture if he throw the person into lava or into the ocean.
4-8 are all pretty much the same in my opinion. doflamingo has his DF and his connections, croc is a logia so he insta strong (that is until someone discovers his weakness), hencock combines her looks with her DF and her haki and though we havent seen her actually fight i believe that she is very strong, we havent seen jinbey's power yet but we can assume that he is insanely strong to be held in level 6 just because he didnt want to fight means a lot about the person. and finally moria who is without a doubt the weakest of them all but he is still really strong to be able to stand toe to toe with a yonkou

beastboy
April 30, 2009, 05:40 PM
Well I think that mihawk is the stronger and I will explain why:
He travels alone in is little (x100)boat.
He cut boats as if they were paper (this sound to inazuma to me)
He is > or = shanks
shanks and WB clashed the swords and they split the sky
mihawk just uses the needed power so we will never know what is true power is until he is about to die (and in OP never dies so he will never be close to die)

ihateyou1
May 01, 2009, 02:08 AM
i still believe hancock and mihawk are the most powerful shichi. the most powerful weapon that can even beat any df user is haki and we all know hancock has the king's haki so she can defeat anyone as long as she stays serious in a fight. i think hancock is viewed weak because of the way she acts when luffy's around but if luffy's not around she can fight to the full extent of her df ability and her king's haki....