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brunoq
October 23, 2008, 08:25 AM
I was reading again some bleach chapters tha I've got here in my computer, and after watching the last bleach movie (the one about two people mastering Hyourinmaru), I've got myself to wonder, How does the contract of a Shinigami and a Zanpakutou works?

We've seen in the series that a Zanpakutou is born from the shinigami Soul, see the immediate appearence of Zangetsu when Ichigo got his powers for the first time. And then when he fought Kenpachi, his travel to his Inner World and finding out the zangetsu leaves there, inside ichigo. We see Zangetsu saying that if ichigo looses to Kenpachi is better for him to have Asoichi, the nameless soul cutter ( http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/111/05/ ). And then we see him earning Zangetsu's power and beating Kenpachi.

Later on, I will show Tousen Kaname, former Captain of the 9th Division, we learned on a particular part of the manga, the tousen Zanpakutou wasn't born with him, but it belongs to another person, his dead friend was the previous owner of tousen Zanpakutou ( see http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/148/09/ ) . And for revenging her he took her zanpakutou off her grave and swore that he would bring justice to the world. So, now we see someone taking another person zanpakutou for himself, and later on achieving Bankai with it. So, that means tha Tousen got the Zanpakutou, made a contract with it and became it's new owner.

Now, on the movie, we see Hitsugaya making a contract with Hyourinmaru, and, at the same time, his friend makes too. So that means, two people took Hyorinmaru, it wasn't born with them, like Zangetsu. Later on the movie we see the chamber 46 saying that they already knew Hyourinmaru's power, and the knew it was strong, and that only one man should have it, by the law. So, my guess here is, Hyourinmaru was created in the soul of someone, and after this someone dies, it goes looking for new owners, and binding with them by contract, and goes on eternally.

Now, here goes my theory: Every one knows that Yoruichi was the 2nd division captain, and we know also that every captain (aside of kenpachi) has a Bankai. So we know, Yoruichi had a Zanpakutou. But, what happened to it? Reading again Yoruichi and Soi Fong fight, I got something interesting. Suzumebachi (Soi Fong Zanpakutou) was Yoruichi's Zanpakutou. And she left it behind when she went away with Urahara. To not say that I'm crazy, look at this page of the fight ( http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/158/03/ ) . Soi Fong clearly says "The ability that you were never able to master " . So, you see, Yoruichi left Soi Fong behind, she got mad, saw her zanpakutou there alone, took it, told that it was left behind and made a contract with it, mastering it, and achieving BanKai, and then Becomig the new Captain.
That's my theory. It would explain Youruichi lack of zanpakutou, and kind of make it easier to understand.

So, what do you think about it? (sorry for being too long!)

Samui
October 23, 2008, 09:46 AM
Tosen took only the "shell" of his friend's Zanpakutou, and after that gained his own Zanpakutou in the empty sword he took. It's like Ichigo's Zanpakutou in the very beginning of the plot, when he doesn't even have the Zanpakutou's spirit inside the sword he received from Rukia's powers. It was just the bigger version of Sode no Shirayuki, without the spirit in side of it.

WaveBossa
October 23, 2008, 11:47 AM
This is very interesting. I read the whole thing and I think you may be correct. But does that mean that before Soi Fon took her zanpakutou, did she have a nameless one?

And, does this mean that yoruichi will find a new one, or do you think that yoruchi will take it back

Tsukisama
October 23, 2008, 12:26 PM
This has actually been brought up a while back. Many of the old Bleach manga on OneMnaga have some mistranslated parts, and that line was one of them. (I leave finding the true translations based on the raw to yourself, but if you don't find them and no one posts them here, I will search for it.)

If I recall correctly, that line is supposed to just say something like an ability that Soi Fon had not mastered before Yoruichi left, simply stating that she has improved herself.

Raizen
October 23, 2008, 01:18 PM
Yeah, the soifon line was that she had not perfected it when youruichi was here, not that youruichi didn't perfect it

TheChosenOne
October 23, 2008, 01:31 PM
Yup, Tsuki and Raizen's right, the page brunoq is referering is a mis-translation. This is what was correctly stated. :)

http://dl01.mangashare.com/manga/Bleach/158/004.jpg
http://static.bleachexile.com/manga/bleach/158/158-04.jpg

brunoq
October 24, 2008, 09:08 AM
Samui: I never saw anywhere that tousen only took the shell of his friend's zanpakutou. It's only you assuming, so a I see your opinion there but It's still unknown the origin of his zanpakutou, the only thing that we know is that it was from his friend. And there is no such thing as a Shell, every zanpakutou is different even on it's sealed form. See on the movie, that Ichigo and Rukia recognize Hyourinmaru on it's sealed form. So I'm assuming that every zankaputou is diferent even in it's sealed form. So, when ichigo got his powers from rukia, that was zangetsu, and it was just asleep waitting for it's owner to call, like every zanpakutou.

As for the rest, the mistranslation really got me there. But, anyway, how about tousen and Hyourinmaru examples? and what happened to Yoruichi's Zanpakutou, What do you think?

Tsukisama
October 24, 2008, 06:23 PM
Samui: I never saw anywhere that tousen only took the shell of his friend's zanpakutou. It's only you assuming, so a I see your opinion there but It's still unknown the origin of his zanpakutou, the only thing that we know is that it was from his friend. And there is no such thing as a Shell, every zanpakutou is different even on it's sealed form. See on the movie, that Ichigo and Rukia recognize Hyourinmaru on it's sealed form. So I'm assuming that every zankaputou is diferent even in it's sealed form. So, when ichigo got his powers from rukia, that was zangetsu, and it was just asleep waitting for it's owner to call, like every zanpakutou.

As for the rest, the mistranslation really got me there. But, anyway, how about tousen and Hyourinmaru examples? and what happened to Yoruichi's Zanpakutou, What do you think?

Well, there is another thread devoted to issue of Tousen's zanpakutou (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33620). So, discussion on it should go in that thread. There, you will find many of people's opinions on the matter.

The Hyourinmaru thing occurs in a movie, which is not considered to be a part of the Bleach canon. Unless it occurs in the manga, you really should not use it as any sort of evidence to something other than the events of that specific work, i.e., the movie's plot is only relevant to the movie and not Bleach as a whole. You should take this as a general rule for everything, including the movies, video games, and moments of the anime that differ from the manga. Furthermore, from most things I have seen, it seems that the next movie about to be released is the first one in which Kubo has been greatly involved in the writing of the plot.

Finally, the on-topic part about Yoruichi's zanpakutou: I don't think anything has happened to Yoruichi's zanpakutou. We simply have yet to see it, but that does not mean she does not have one. In a Bleach color book ("All Colors but the Black" is the name, I believe), Kubo drew all of the lieutenants with their zanpakutou. (By the way, for clarification, source material solely produced by Kubo like this color book or the databook should be taken as part of the canon, because Kubo himself created it in the universe of Bleach.) Even Nemu had a zanpakutou although she has yet to be spotted with one in the actual manga. The unreleased form of Yoruichi's zanpakutou may even be something small, resembling a tanto similar to Iba's unreleased zanpakutou, and thus fit in clothes.

Whatever the reason, I don't think that not seeing her zanpakutou should be taken as Yoruichi not having a zanpakutou.

kikrox1
October 27, 2008, 05:41 PM
i actually didnt read the whole thing but im not sure its possible to use another persons zanpakuto and i dont think yoruichi is ever shown with her zanpakuto anyway

nordicbattlesigns
October 27, 2008, 05:50 PM
i actually didnt read the whole thing but im not sure its possible to use another persons zanpakuto and i dont think yoruichi is ever shown with her zanpakuto anyway


I don't have the relevant chapter/page in front of me right now, but I believe a younger Yoruichi is shown with a zanpakuto on her hip in a flashback with Urahara - she was talking with Ichigo at the time, in that training space under the Soukyoku hill, discussing the similarities of that place with the space under Urahara Shoten.

igotthegoods
October 28, 2008, 02:39 PM
I don't have the relevant chapter/page in front of me right now, but I believe a younger Yoruichi is shown with a zanpakuto on her hip in a flashback with Urahara - she was talking with Ichigo at the time, in that training space under the Soukyoku hill, discussing the similarities of that place with the space under Urahara Shoten.

Here's the page you're talking about. It certanly looks like she has a zanpakutou on her hip :)

http://img56.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/00000130/10.jpg

kikrox1
October 28, 2008, 04:41 PM
Here's the page you're talking about. It certanly looks like she has a zanpakutou on her hip :)

http://img56.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/00000130/10.jpg
ty for finding it for me ._. and now that i have seen it i think soi fons zanpakuto sheath looks different so it cant be the same sword

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e350/NekoYasha09/Bleach/s.jpg

patz
January 29, 2009, 09:20 PM
is the bandage/robe around her hand? I guess that's why we never see her holding one around.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/178/01/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/178/02/

Look at her hand closely.

Forever_Melody
January 29, 2009, 09:48 PM
is the bandage/robe around her hand? I guess that's why we never see her holding one around.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/178/01/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/178/02/

Look at her hand closely.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean sorry :s

Would you mind clarifying your idea? What does a bandage have to do with her Zanpakuto?

patz
January 30, 2009, 02:47 AM
I thought she disguised her Zanpakuto.

Forever_Melody
February 02, 2009, 07:47 AM
You mean that bandage on her hand is her Zanpakuto? Certainly an interesting idea. I mean, Yamamoto disguises his Zanpakuto so the possibility is certainly there ^^

Mind you, that outfit Yoruichi wore when facing Soifon wasn't the same one she was introduced in and the one she was introduced with had no bandages involved and the only sign of a bandage we see is when she uses it on Byakuya's sword.

krid77
February 02, 2009, 08:18 PM
She wears a bandage because her arm is injured, isn't it?
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/195/02/
Anyway, I still did not get how she picked up that injury...

I don't think she disguised it, when you see Urahara or Yamamoto disguising their own Zanpakuto: it has still a similar shape as a katana (I mean it's a solid stick not a cloth or something else) .

sabret00the
February 02, 2009, 08:25 PM
Look in her right hand: http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/177/18-19/

Look in her right hand: http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/178/02/

Forever_Melody
February 02, 2009, 08:53 PM
Well Yoruichi has been seen using a bandage/cloth many times in the manga.

She used one here (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/117/18/) to immobilize Byakuya's Zanpakuto.

She also uses one to hide her face as shown here (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/153/18/).

She later used one in that episode with Aizen.

She's even seen using one as early as the flashbacks here (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.12/13/) to wrap Urahara and Tessai and transport them away.

Obviously the use of cloth is something Kubo associates with Yoruichi.

Is it her Zanpakuto though? Well it's certainly an interesting idea to say the least :D

kkck
February 03, 2009, 05:55 PM
here is a wierd thought: She is hew own zampakuto and her cat form is her sealed form!

I dont think that is the case at all, but it still is an interesting thought.

Razh
February 03, 2009, 07:16 PM
Look in her right hand: http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/177/18-19/

Look in her right hand: http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/178/02/

What?
On the first link, in her right hand she's holding Aizen's Zanpakuto, so he can't take it out.

In the second, she isn't holding anything. There's just a small movement trace.
[hr]

She wears a bandage because her arm is injured, isn't it?
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/195/02/
Anyway, I still did not get how she picked up that injury...


She hurt herself while punching and kicking Yammi. His Hierro was too tough.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/195/03/

Forever_Melody
February 04, 2009, 08:29 AM
What?
On the first link, in her right hand she's holding Aizen's Zanpakuto, so he can't take it out.

In the second, she isn't holding anything. There's just a small movement trace.
He's referring to the bandage/scarf type thing. It's present in both those pictures.

Razh
February 04, 2009, 08:32 AM
Of course, I'm not blind. I just thought he meant something else.

Personally, I don't think the cloth has anything to do with her Zanpakuto. It's just a helpfull accessory.

Forever_Melody
February 04, 2009, 06:36 PM
Well sorry, didn't mean to sound offensive >.< Just that you seemed completely perplexed as to what he was referring to(as in, you did not seem to imply you had seen the cloth in your post).

Well it comes back to the question of where or what happened to Yoruichi's Zanpakuto I guess.

Razh
February 05, 2009, 05:15 AM
No need to apologize, I didn't perceive it as offensive at all.:)

Sorry if a came a bit rough. It's just the way I write.

To me, it always seemed like Yoruichi's way of fighting was her own choice.
Maybe she really did left it to Soifon. Perhaps it was her way of compensating Soifon for abandoning her.

Jammer
February 05, 2009, 06:54 AM
here (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/177/09/) (upper right box) is clearly visible that she pushes Aizen's zanpaktou with her right hand while it's wrapped with the bandage thing held in her left hand - all in order to stop him from drawing it, so nothing is in her right hand there

I was missing her constant use of bandage, though
it is somewhat possible that this is her shikai, having the ability to seal other zanpaktous or hide reiatsu, the zanpaktu's released states somewhat correspond to the way the user fights and she's a stealthy fighter so a hidden zanpaktu is ok
Urahara and Yamamoto were hiding theirs in the unreleased states, but the form in shikai has a great freedom

another speculation I can come up with is that she decided not to use her zanpaktou after leaving SS, although I like the bandage/shikai theory more ^^

WaveBossa
March 11, 2009, 12:41 AM
here (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/177/09/) (upper right box) is clearly visible that she pushes Aizen's zanpaktou with her right hand while it's wrapped with the bandage thing held in her left hand - all in order to stop him from drawing it, so nothing is in her right hand there

I was missing her constant use of bandage, though
it is somewhat possible that this is her shikai, having the ability to seal other zanpaktous or hide reiatsu, the zanpaktu's released states somewhat correspond to the way the user fights and she's a stealthy fighter so a hidden zanpaktu is ok
Urahara and Yamamoto were hiding theirs in the unreleased states, but the form in shikai has a great freedom

another speculation I can come up with is that she decided not to use her zanpaktou after leaving SS, although I like the bandage/shikai theory more ^^

I hate to say it, but that would be a lame ass shikai.

Nice sig btw

_ATMA
March 18, 2009, 12:19 AM
you all keep bringing up this bandage she wares on her arms but u all keep forgetting shes a master of martial arts particularly her styles resymbol Asian M.A. a common weapon back in the day was a small knife or a large pin/nail like weapon with a large cloth attached to it the point of it is to distract the enemy from the actual weapon and concealing the blade its self making it harder to judge where and when to dodge and attack doing stuff like this gives an upper hand in close range hand to hand combat

ryanzokuken
March 20, 2009, 11:09 PM
we've seen here wearing a sword in flashbacks, haven't we?

so then i think it's clear that since she hasn't carried one in the present, she just isn't using it lately and it's just being kept somewhere. (or just laying around.)

i doubt it's somehow disguised as anything on her body.

Forever_Melody
March 21, 2009, 09:50 PM
Urarahara & Yamamoto have shown the ability to disguise their Zanpakutos as items on their being so I guess it isn't totally far fetched that Yoruichi would've done so as well.

Assuming that isn't the case though and she simply isn't using it...

Why isn't she using it and where the heck is she keeping it? A Zanpakuto is the physical manifestation of a shinigami's spirit force, therefore, it is the most representative extension of one's power. It'd make the most sense to use that as it is supposed to be an extension/representation of your. It's almost an integral part of your body.

Tsukisama
March 22, 2009, 01:36 PM
Why isn't she using it and where the heck is she keeping it? A Zanpakuto is the physical manifestation of a shinigami's spirit force, therefore, it is the most representative extension of one's power. It'd make the most sense to use that as it is supposed to be an extension/representation of your. It's almost an integral part of your body.

I think the main reason why she doesn't use her zanpakutou is simply due to her fighting style. Some shinigami appear to simply rely on the other areas of shingami more heavily than on zanjutsu, which majority of shinigami seem to utilize the most.

Another example would Hachigen. When we saw him helping combat hollowfied Kensei and Mashiro during the gaiden, he only did so using his kidou. We know, however, that he does actually have a zanpakutou, as we saw him pull it out during Ichigo's training with the vizards; thus, it would seem inferring from his observed combat situation that as having been a vice-captain of the Kidou Corps, he simply prefers to use kidou rather than his zanpakutou in combat.

The Covert Ops seems to be the organization that focuses the most of the different shinigami groups we have seen on using hakuda and hohou. Given that Yoruichi is a bit of a legendary figure with regard to the Covert Ops, it would make sense that she primarily uses hakuda and hohou over zanjutsu, which seems like a good thing to me, as it allows us to observe more uses of those areas of shinigami combat.

Eddy01741
March 22, 2009, 07:12 PM
Okay, just because we saw her with a normal zanpakutou in the soul society doesn't mean that it still is in normal form. We didn't see Urahara disguise his zanpakutou as a cane back in SS during gaiden, did we? Well, now he is disguising it, so she could be disguising it as to hide her connection with shinigami (even though her cat form already accomplishes that pretty well).

Anyhow, I highly doubt that she doesn't use her zanpakutou because she doesn't like it's fighting style, every zanpakutou is a manifestation of the user's spirit basically, zanpakutou don't come with their own spirit inside them, a shinigami must train with it and develop his/her own spirit inside the zanpakutou. Hence Tousen has a zanpakutou that can take away the sense of sight for everybody enveloped inside his uh... tent besides anyone who touches his zanpakutou, similarly, Hinamori was always much better at kidou than zanjetsu, and her zanpakutou is kidou based, Aizen's is all about deception, when he himself is quite the mischievous character, etc.

I highly doubt that Yoruichi would just not want to use her zanpakutou due to conflicting fighting styles, there must be some other reason to explain, that, or, she just never has needed more than her kidou, shunpo, and hand-hand to defeat enemies (in which areas she has shown herself to be very proficient in).

Fairy Vearth
March 22, 2009, 07:54 PM
well or yoruichi's zanpaktou is some ugly bitch which yoruichi can't stand, so she isn't relying on it. even if it sounds stupid, i wouldnt be surprised. or her zanpaktou's shikai and bankai are way too dangerous or overpowered, so she tries to improve her body strenght. she can transform, so her zanpaktou could also be like orihimes :)

Aonsaithya
March 22, 2009, 08:10 PM
Urarahara & Yamamoto have shown the ability to disguise their Zanpakutos as items on their being so I guess it isn't totally far fetched that Yoruichi would've done so as well.

Assuming that isn't the case though and she simply isn't using it...

Why isn't she using it and where the heck is she keeping it? A Zanpakuto is the physical manifestation of a shinigami's spirit force, therefore, it is the most representative extension of one's power. It'd make the most sense to use that as it is supposed to be an extension/representation of your. It's almost an integral part of your body.

I suppose she has too much confidence in shunko. Also, the sword would be impossible to carry around should she transform as well...

We've seen Urahara's cane sword, but have we ever seen his sealed sword in "zanpakutou" form? Yamamoto disintegrated his cane away to reveal the sealed sword, and only after that proceeded to release it.

Forever_Melody
March 22, 2009, 10:10 PM
Soifon is a heavy hand-to-hand fighter yet she uses her Zanpakuto as well. I guess Yoruichi's sword might not have been as compatible with her style of fighting as Soi Fo's although I wouldn't see why since Zanpakutos are physical manifestations of one's power so they usual represent the person from who's reiatsu they were "made from".

I mean, most Zanpakutos we've seen so far have matched their owners in terms of powers they have.

Also, I don't see why Kubo bothered to even show us she had one if it was to never ever ever see the light again.

There's still the question of where exactly you put something like your Zanpakuto if you don't keep it on you >.> So far, I don't recall a Shinigami permanently not keeping their Zanpakuto on them.

Eddy01741
March 22, 2009, 10:50 PM
Yeah, I have to agree with your statement "I mean, most Zanpakutos we've seen so far have matched their owners in terms of powers they have." here.

All of any shinigami's zanpakutou have manifested in powers similar to their personality and fighting style, I don't think that Yoruichi is any different. So that's why I doubt that the cause of us not seeing it is because her shunko fighting style is incompatiable.

Just my 2 cents.

Tsukisama
March 24, 2009, 09:40 AM
Soifon is a heavy hand-to-hand fighter yet she uses her Zanpakuto as well. I guess Yoruichi's sword might not have been as compatible with her style of fighting as Soi Fo's although I wouldn't see why since Zanpakutos are physical manifestations of one's power so they usual represent the person from who's reiatsu they were "made from".

Soi Fon also uses hakuda, but the impression I got from her fight with Yoruichi was that Yoruichi still has greater skills in terms of unarmed combat. I think the main reason that Yoruichi's zanpakutou is not used is to showcase more unarmed techniques. Yoruichi is the perfect vehicle through which to show the potential of unarmed combat.

Although she likely has a zanpakutou with her somwhere, I prefer that she does not use it, but I would imagine that if she were in a very serious fight and really felt backed into a corner, Kubo would probably use it as one of her trump cards that he ften likes to use for characters.

As to where it is hidden, it could be concealed using some sort of kidou as something else or in a sort of kidou hammerspace.

niblack89
March 24, 2009, 07:54 PM
If I were to guess yoruichi's zanpakuto would be similar to Soi Fon because she is very skilled in hand to hand were as soi Fon zanpakuto is basicly a hand to hand style that combined with her shunkou and she has a flash step I think its called Utsusemi the flash step she taught to kuchiki and she probably have more flash steps than that would make for a fighter no wonder why she dont use her sword there's no need but that combined with he zanpakuto is monsterly and we know she is strongest than kuchiki to be able to take on 10th Espada with just her bare hands and she achieved Bankai early because she was a caption at an early age I believe she and Urahara are monsters cause they should be around the same level and so far they seem to not even use the slightest uses of their powers in a real battle and they are both mistories.

THETRUTH.com
April 04, 2009, 01:58 PM
I think Yoruichi's lack of zanpaktou use is fits her fighting style but more importantly the philosophy of someone in her position. As Commander of the Onmitsukidō and Corps Commander of the Corrections Corps her job entails knowing, monitoring, and if necessary punishing other shinigami. She would understand the importance of keeping her abilities secret as all shinigami do, but her even more so. I do think she has a zanpaktou(probably disguised) but doesn't make use of it often to insure she has an advantage if her other abilities are neutralized. Since she is so skilled it would be very difficult to force her hand. Yoruichi is extremely savvy tactician and may choose to retreat. So I don't think we will see her zanpaktou until she has been pushed into a position with no escape.

kkck
April 04, 2009, 04:18 PM
There are many times in which the obvious comparison between yoruichi and a cat has been made. From her own transformation to the title of one of the chapters where she fought soi fong. The chapter is called "Cat and Hornet" with soi fong obviously being the hornet due to her zampakuto.
I agree with thetruth.com, her zampakuto should be something that fits her position as captain of the assasination force, so going by that, I guess it is posible her zapakuto provides her with a set of claws similar to that of a cat or something related to the stealth cats are capable of.
On the other hand, if her zampakuto fits her job perfectly there is no reason not to have it with her. Which would lead me to a second posibility that her zampakutos power isnt discrite in the very least which would make it not fit her position and fighting stile which would lead to her not using it at all. Of course, shunko her best technique is quite flashy so even if her zampakuto is flashy, it wouldnt make sense for her not to keep it at least just in case. Her situation is outright weird lol.

Raizen
April 06, 2009, 01:41 PM
I had the weirdest dream, and it was about youruichi's zan. How wierd, now I am dreaming bleach, WTFFF??

Anyways, i think her sword has to do with the cloth around her hand as some has said. Or perhaps the cloth as a sheath to her real zan which is sealed in her arm

Gecko Moria
April 08, 2009, 11:09 PM
Maybe Yoruichi feels that she doesn't need her zanpakto. She is powerful enough as it is with her punches and kicks only. I would still like to see what her release(s) look like though.

juice88
April 12, 2009, 02:44 PM
i actually believe her zanpaktou is at uraharas shop probably with tessais she probably doesnt carry it because when she is not there she is usually in cat form and it would be kinda hard for her to sneak around on her missions as a cat with a sword on her back i remember when she first transformed in front of ichigo she said how long it had been since she had been in human form so that means she had spent all that time as a cat without a sword also i remember during an opening theme in the anime she had a small sword in her mouth that could very well be her zanpaktou and it is small enough to have without anyone seeing it

JP_Russell
April 13, 2009, 11:32 PM
also i remember during an opening theme in the anime she had a small sword in her mouth that could very well be her zanpaktou and it is small enough to have without anyone seeing it

I think what you're referring to is the scene in the second season opening (~1:00-1:10) where Chad rips up a big chunk of the ground and throws it at a bunch of shinigami, then Soi Fon dashes through the dust created by the chunk landing and tries to stab Chad, but Yoruichi in cat form dashes in and bites off the tip of her zanpakuto, which is what she's holding in her mouth.

Anyway, um... Nobody has mentioned this possibility yet (unless I missed it >_>), but maybe Yoruichi's zanpakuto is just gone. Maybe it was lost, or even destroyed, in the events of the past arc after she and Urahara fled SS (in which case, Kubo simply hasn't shown this to us yet). Mayuri pretty much confirmed that a zanpakuto can be destroyed by saying "it can be rebuilt so long as I still have the hilt," after breaking it off inside Aporro, so I don't see why it couldn't possibly be the case. Just a possibility, of course.

There's also another possibility coming to my mind, one that seems ultimately so unlikely I almost don't want to even mention it, but... Someone theorized in another thread that those two hanging bodies Mayuri found in Aporro's lab were actually Yoruichi and Urahara, which would make the ones we've seen up to this point in the whole manga fakes. While it's a highly speculative theory, it's also intriguing. If this speculation turned out true, it might be a reason for Yoruichi not having a zanpakuto; she's not a real shinigami, just a creation of Aizen's somehow.

But wait, Urahara has his zanpakuto, right? Well, when you think about the fact that his zanpakuto has used only cero-derived abilities up to now, it's possible he's also a creation of Aizen, and he doesn't wield a real zanpakuto but rather some kind of device Aizen designed from his various hollow research projects to make it appear like (the fake) Urahara had a zanpakuto. While I always figured Urahara's statement of "My bankai isn't good for making people stronger" (or however he worded it) meant precisely what it sounded like, that its ability simply wasn't appropriate for training Chad with his powers and Kubo threw this in to add extra mystery and anticipation to his bankai, perhaps it was actually an excuse of some sort to cover the fact that there is no bankai because he doesn't have a real zanpakuto. If this theory were true, then it would mean that Aizen orchestrated everything regarding Ichigo and his friends, including having (the fake) Yoruichi go with them to SS (unlike Urahara with his fake zanpakuto, which he has yet to use in front of anyone from the past who would know its ability).

Again, I consider this second possibility highly unlikely (and truth be told, I'm not sure I'd like it if it proved to be true), especially since it's based on speculation that is in itself a big maybe, and I'm sure there are holes I could find in it if I thought long enough on it (and tons more holes that others who are better at this than me could find). But it just kind of popped into my head so I thought I'd throw it out there. I'm pretty sure right now that Kubo has been building up to another mind**** on the level of Aizen being revealed as the bad guy in the SS arc, and if this were true it'd open up a whole other plane of mind****ery to be sure.

thedarkoneaox
April 14, 2009, 12:10 AM
She may have abandoned it when she abandoned her post... Im not for certain but I believe that Soi Fon mentioned something about hers being connected to her team, and if Yoruichi knew that she could go on the run with something that could be used to trace her... But thats just a theory no one take that as fact...

Forever_Melody
April 14, 2009, 04:45 AM
Actually, in the flashback chapters, she didn't wear a Zanpakuto either(link (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.02/04/)).

The only time in the manga we *do* see her with one is when she has a flashback of training with Urahara right here (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/130/10/). Note that her Zanpakuto seems like a smaller blade sword like Soi Fon's unreleased Zanpakuto. Now, she's not wearing the head special corps outfit in that image and she mentions in the caption that she and Urahara had just joined the squad and trained to make themselves stronger.

Therefore, one can assume that something happened between that moment and her appointment as captain of the 2nd division. Whatever this is made her decide/force her not to user her Zanpakuto.

Raizen
April 16, 2009, 04:04 PM
She may have abandoned it when she abandoned her post... Im not for certain but I believe that Soi Fon mentioned something about hers being connected to her team, and if Yoruichi knew that she could go on the run with something that could be used to trace her... But thats just a theory no one take that as fact...
A zanpaktou is a reflection of yourself, I doubt she would abandon it

hyn_pride93
April 18, 2009, 08:12 PM
Yoruichi is form the Shihouin Family. This noble family is the head of their own special force. She was then appointed to be the Captain of the 2nd squad in the Gotei 13. You don't just leave your zanpaktou lying around like that, even if you have a lot of power. She's in the assaination squad and I'm pretty sure that her blade being small would match her perfectly seing as her physical skills are already very sharp and that a dagger of sorts would be the best zanpaktou for her. What I want to know is, when will Yoruichi truly be challenged to bring out her zanpaktou?

Necropotence
April 20, 2009, 11:11 PM
Actually, in the flashback chapters, she didn't wear a Zanpakuto either(link (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.02/04/)).

The only time in the manga we *do* see her with one is when she has a flashback of training with Urahara right here (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/130/10/). Note that her Zanpakuto seems like a smaller blade sword like Soi Fon's unreleased Zanpakuto. Now, she's not wearing the head special corps outfit in that image and she mentions in the caption that she and Urahara had just joined the squad and trained to make themselves stronger.

Therefore, one can assume that something happened between that moment and her appointment as captain of the 2nd division. Whatever this is made her decide/force her not to user her Zanpakuto.


if you notice all the other captains arent wearing their zanpaktou with the exeption of yama-ji since he uses it as a walking cane

let me correct that there is noone wearing their zanpaktou out in the open if you see all the panels (once again yama-ji is exempt because the cane serves as a gavel and some sort of authority figure)

Tsukisama
April 21, 2009, 04:38 PM
if you notice all the other captains arent wearing their zanpaktou with the exeption of yama-ji since he uses it as a walking cane

let me correct that there is noone wearing their zanpaktou out in the open if you see all the panels (once again yama-ji is exempt because the cane serves as a gavel and some sort of authority figure)

Adding on to what Necropotence is saying here, we know that Unohana does not always carry her zanpakutou, as it is stated that she occasionally has her lieutenant (Isane) carry it for her. So, this would be a concrete example of a captain not always having his or her zanpakutou on his or her person. The same could easily be the case with Yoruichi.

Most of the time that we have seen her has been in the present when she was going back and forth from her feline form. Obviously she wouldn't be carrying around then. (My guess is that during the SS arc she left it at Urahara's shop.) During gaiden, we didn't see Yoruichi in combat; so, again she may not have felt it necessary to carry it around with her (as she is clearly capable of decently defending herself without it).

Forever_Melody
April 21, 2009, 07:41 PM
Yeah, maybe she isn't carrying it on herself. IIRC, there is a law against activating Zanpakutou within Seireitei anyways so it makes sense.

The question is whether or not we will see this alleged Zanpakutou rise? I mean, Kubo hinted there *was* one so it'd be a bit useless to bother showing it if it never played some kind of part in the future. I mean, we'd already have a complete scope of Yoruichi's powers if it ended with Shunko. Arguably, even Byakuya showed something "new" in his most recent fight. But then again, Komamura didn't in his :oh

faisfa1
April 29, 2009, 01:45 PM
maybe Yrouichi merged with her zanpakto and can summon it whenever she wishes. kind of like shirosaki merging with old man zangetsu

kkck
April 29, 2009, 01:59 PM
maybe Yrouichi merged with her zanpakto and can summon it whenever she wishes. kind of like shirosaki merging with old man zangetsu

Shirosaki never actually merged with zangetsu, from the moment he was created/born he was a part of ichigo's power. Also saying shirosaki merged with zangetsu would actually imply zangetsu and shirosaki were different beings to begin with and that would massively contrast with this:
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/218/20/
Shirosaki and zangetsu were from the start one being. Even if ichigo's hollow powers were born during the duration of the manga, from the moment ichigo got them, they were already a part of his power and therefore a part of zangetsu.

As for yoruichi merging with her zampakuto, I doubt something like that happened. Technically speaking, she and her zampakuto are already one, her zampakuto is a part of her soul. The spirit of the zampakuto is not something that resides within the sword (arrancars are the ones whose power core is within the zampakuto instead of themselves), a shinigami's power resides within the shinigami and is manifested through the zampakuto.

Forever_Melody
April 29, 2009, 05:49 PM
Well arguably, a Shinigami and Zanpakuto can exist as separate entities as Kenpachi isn't exactly "one" with his sword and Tousen's Zanpakuto isn't his own. Therefore, complete unity isn't guaranteed between Shinigami and Zanpakutou although yes, they are supposed to be born of the same thing(the user's spirit power) and therefore in a sense they are the same.

That being said, a physical merging of Zanpakutou and Shinigami has not been presented in the series yet. The only such instance I recall was in that filler anime of Bleach where that bad guy tried to merge with his Zanpakutou and went mad >.>

kkck
April 29, 2009, 06:29 PM
Well arguably, a Shinigami and Zanpakuto can exist as separate entities as Kenpachi isn't exactly "one" with his sword and Tousen's Zanpakuto isn't his own. Therefore, complete unity isn't guaranteed between Shinigami and Zanpakutou although yes, they are supposed to be born of the same thing(the user's spirit power) and therefore in a sense they are the same.

That being said, a physical merging of Zanpakutou and Shinigami has not been presented in the series yet. The only such instance I recall was in that filler anime of Bleach where that bad guy tried to merge with his Zanpakutou and went mad >.>

Thats the complicated thing about zampakutos and their owners. The spirit of the zampakuto is the power of the shinigami and it has its own personality, taste, likes and dislikes but even then it is an unquestionable part of the soul of said shinigami. I don't think they can actually exist as separate things from their owners. That said, I doubt a physical merging between them is possible because they already exist within the same entity. I am going to use a very bad image to show my point:
http://i722.photobucket.com/albums/ww226/kkck/shini.jpg
A merging would suggest a shinigami and the zampakuto are separate being to begin with and they merged to become one, but they are already existing as one, so how could they merge anymore? It is sort of as if they are the same whole and each has different attributes...
As for the anime thing, are you talking about the bount?

Forever_Melody
April 29, 2009, 06:50 PM
Well arguably Tousen's Zanpakutou isn't part of his being as it isn't his(it's his dead girlfriend's which is explained in the early chapters in SS) and yet he was able to use it and even achieve Bankai with it :s

And for the anime I meant that short filler thingy in one of the movies.

kkck
April 29, 2009, 06:59 PM
Well arguably Tousen's Zanpakutou isn't part of his being as it isn't his(it's his dead girlfriend's which is explained in the early chapters in SS) and yet he was able to use it and even achieve Bankai with it :s

And for the anime I meant that short filler thingy in one of the movies.

Ahhhh the plothole.... That is just the sword though, what we have yet to see is whether the spirit of the zampakuto is tousens or that womans.... Perhaps there was something left of the woman in the sword and he is able to access some of her power... who knows, hopefully kishi will explain in the future...

BlackGetsuga
April 29, 2009, 07:06 PM
Ahhhh the plothole.... That is just the sword though, what we have yet to see is whether the spirit of the zampakuto is tousens or that womans.... Perhaps there was something left of the woman in the sword and he is able to access some of her power... who knows, hopefully kishi will explain in the future...
It would make since by the form of his bankai that the spirit of his zanpakto is indeed his power. Blind guy with a bankai that removes one senses they fit so well together.

Forever_Melody
April 29, 2009, 07:11 PM
Ahhhh the plothole.... That is just the sword though, what we have yet to see is whether the spirit of the zampakuto is tousens or that womans.... Perhaps there was something left of the woman in the sword and he is able to access some of her power... who knows, hopefully kishi will explain in the future...

Well the above poster seemed to surmise it well. Tousen's Zanpakutou, despite not being his own, seems to have powers related to his own state of being. So in that sense, perhaps the Zanpakutou might've adapted to its new owner or perhaps Tousen somehow "infuse" the sword with his own powers.

I mean, yes Zanpakutou are supposed to be physical manifestations of one's power, but in a sense, they're aren't totally you either. Ogichi is arguably Ichigo, but at the same time he's his own separate entity(Ichigo seems to not want to acknowledge Ogichi as himself either).

Anyways this is going slightly off-topic :p

kkck
April 29, 2009, 11:30 PM
It would make since by the form of his bankai that the spirit of his zanpakto is indeed his power. Blind guy with a bankai that removes one senses they fit so well together.

I never said it was not his own spirit, as a matter of fact, the power manifested by the zampakuto must be that of tousens zampakuto spirit. What I suggested was that there is the possibility that there could be something left within that sword from the previous sword owner. Take a look at the original shikai and bankai tousen showed. Both of them attempt to render the enemy defenseless without shedding any blood(with zaraki it did not work though). On the other hand tousens second shikai, is the exact opposite of that. Contrary to tousens first shikai and bankai, the second shikai he showed was meant to shed every drop of blood and destroy the body of the enemy(ironically this also did not work with zaraki lol). As you can see, the second shikai ability does not match in any way either the parttern of tousens original shikai and bankai or his personality and credo. That is the part which IMO is possible could be a leftover of the original owner of the zampakuto.

This really is getting a little off topic now, guess I'll stop writting about this in this thread...

Doombot
April 29, 2009, 11:57 PM
I never said it was not his own spirit, as a matter of fact, the power manifested by the zampakuto must be that of tousens zampakuto spirit. What I suggested was that there is the possibility that there could be something left within that sword from the previous sword owner. Take a look at the original shikai and bankai tousen showed. Both of them attempt to render the enemy defenseless without shedding any blood(with zaraki it did not work though). On the other hand tousens second shikai, is the exact opposite of that. Contrary to tousens first shikai and bankai, the second shikai he showed was meant to shed every drop of blood and destroy the body of the enemy(ironically this also did not work with zaraki lol). As you can see, the second shikai ability does not match in any way either the parttern of tousens original shikai and bankai or his personality and credo. That is the part which IMO is possible could be a leftover of the original owner of the zampakuto.

This really is getting a little off topic now, guess I'll stop writting about this in this thread...

I've always believe that Tousen could have perhaps had two zanpaktous. Something has to seperate him and make him strong enough for Aizen to have interest in the man. If Tousen is a weak as he as shown so fair... Aizen should have just killed him. This is why I believe Tousen has something special that he can do.

kkck
April 30, 2009, 01:39 AM
I've always believe that Tousen could have perhaps had two zanpaktous. Something has to seperate him and make him strong enough for Aizen to have interest in the man. If Tousen is a weak as he as shown so fair... Aizen should have just killed him. This is why I believe Tousen has something special that he can do.

Tousen is the only man alive who is immune to aizens shikai. Considering bankai's usually are an enhanced version of shikai, it is also possible tousen is immune to aizens bankai. While tousen has not shown to be particularly strong he is still at the captain level. Also, tousen has shown to be absolutely and above all loyal to aizen. Considering that, tousen is the perfect subordinate for aizen from any point of view lol.

stevenash
April 30, 2009, 04:20 AM
How did Ichigo gets the new Zangetsu or Zangetsu for that fact?...he just blew up and before we know it's on his hand...so it seems like something that is manifested from his soul...so it is possible Yoruichi is able to reverse that process and keeps her sword back inside her soul...

~Joshua~
April 30, 2009, 03:30 PM
Tousen is the only man alive who is immune to aizens shikai. Considering bankai's usually are an enhanced version of shikai, it is also possible tousen is immune to aizens bankai. While tousen has not shown to be particularly strong he is still at the captain level. Also, tousen has shown to be absolutely and above all loyal to aizen. Considering that, tousen is the perfect subordinate for aizen from any point of view lol.

I agree, if there is someone who is immune to your power you either kill them or recruit them. Aizen probably didn't want to waste any blood and was interested in Tousen so he recruited him. It wasn't a waste of time doing that seeing how he follows orders.

Alexis
May 04, 2009, 01:20 PM
He's referring to the bandage/scarf type thing. It's present in both those pictures.
Very late reply, but the person posting the pictures asked us to look at her right hand, while the bandage was in her left hand. So I think that's where the confusion was.

Anyway, interesting idea about the cloth. It could just be a normal cloth, but how can a normal cloth stop a Zanpaktou? (She wrapped it around Byakuya's Zanpaktou which seemed to suppress it from releasing, and she used it against Aizen's Zanpaktou as well.) And seeing it wrapping around Urahara and Tessai before transporting them out makes it seem like there might be something to that idea.

hyn_pride93
May 05, 2009, 12:02 PM
Yoruichi being able to reverse the manifestation proccess doesn't seem to be the most ideal or logical theory here. When thinking about Yoruichi though, it wouldn't be impossible for her to do something like that. She is already able to transform her body into that of a cat and is still one of the most powerful shinigami in Bleach. If she can do all of this, then why can't she reverse the manifestation and keep it with her in her soul.

There's also the possibility that she keeps it hidden in SS where she and Urahara created the training area.

RICKisBOSS
May 09, 2009, 03:43 PM
http://i42.tinypic.com/2h5ik93.jpg
The Suzumebachi Theory
I was looking at the fights going on in the Fake Karakura and wasn’t all that impressed. Stark and Shunsui have been exchanging a series of rather awkward complimentary observations. Halibel literally tore Hitsugaya in half, no wait, she would have had he not used his newly created, one-time use “Aisu Bunshin” technique. :notrust

The third fight, however, is probably my favorite one going on right now because it revolves around two characters that have been known to talk the talk but we’ve yet to see them walk the walk. Of course, I’m talking about Ukitake and Lilinette. I kid, I kid…I mean the fight between Soi Fon and Barragan Luisenbarn. With the latter, he was built up as many to be the primera but it turned out that he wasn’t. Then again, Yammy turned out to be the Cero Espada and that’s when I gave up on figuring things out with Bleach…

One thing that I did find interesting though was Soi Fon and her Zanpaktou, that is, if it it’s even hers to begin with. Now I was looking back at the chapters covering the Soul Society Arc which to me feels like a different series altogether. The style, the pace, the Ganju- Everything felt so different compared to the current story to the point that you’d only see the comparison by name-only…at least I did.

http://i40.tinypic.com/5pophu.jpg
Of course, it goes without saying that a lot of things mentioned early on come back with more meaning in the present story which brings me to my theory/open-ended question: Is the position of the leader of the second division and commander of the special Ops the only thing Yoruichi I left behind?

The Past
I just want to say I’m referring to what we’ve seen in the manga so far but there is a lot that implies that Soi Fon is the successor of Suzumebachi. First off, I understand unseated members and/or shinigami who cannot communicate with their Zanpaktou use an Asauchi which is what I assumed Soi Fon had early on.

http://i44.tinypic.com/k9jeia.jpg
But looking at these panels (I wouldn’t ask you to read all of this without adding a couple of visuals here and there), I noticed that Yoruichi was exclusively almost never seen with a Zanpaktou herself.

http://i44.tinypic.com/2u9kdbc.jpg
I wanted to put it off as a Special Ops thing or whatever but that wouldn’t give reason for her to be Captain would it not? That and Yoruichi is clearly seen with a Zanpaktou that looks somewhat similar to what Soi Fon wields later on.

http://i43.tinypic.com/14dq9va.jpg
Looking at the Pendulum Gaiden, it doesn’t look as if she is ever seen with a blade either but at the same time, it isn’t clear if Soi Fon has one in her possession.

What we have seen, though, is Yoruichi training Soi Fon with what is assumed to be Suzumebachi. From what I understand, Yoruichi’s sudden departure, as well as the massive void within the ranks of the Gotei 13, leads to Soi Fon’s promotion as a successor to Yoruichi’s positions. Given that she personally selected by Yoruichi herself as her body guard, you think Soi Fon’s position as a Captain was a technicality?

http://i42.tinypic.com/2usj2qh.jpg

From what we’ve seen, the Gotei 13 pretty much does things by the books but the thought of losing that many captains, vice captains, and leaders of the Kidou Corp leads me to believe that Soi Fon-and possibly Aizen which is another theory all by itself-were promoted out of the inconvenience of the situation itself.


The Present
In the Soul Society Arc, Soi Fon had some choice words for her former mentor and even went as far as unleashing the Special Ops on their former Commander.

http://i39.tinypic.com/8vx11k.jpg
Of course, we see that Yoruichi was still more than qualified to handle the situation until Soi Fon releases Suzumebachi.

This is pretty much the core of where I’m getting at:

http://i42.tinypic.com/2rw6vzd.jpg

Again, while I’m referring to the manga, this is still a scan so if there is a slight mistranslation, then so be it. However, this comes off as Soi Fon implying that Suzumebachi was something that Yoruichi had in the past and Soi Fon herself later perfected.

I think this sentiment was echoed when we saw the difference in levels when the Flashcry was introduced: Something that Soi Fon did and something that Yoruichi could do years back but better.

I know the idea of Yoruichi simply not having a zanpaktou with her in Soul Society could be said but couldn’t she have just pulled a Nell, or worse, a Loly >_>?

Wouldn’t a Zanpaktou been beneficial in explaining bankai to Ichigo during training? I think it would…had she had one to demonstrate with in the first place.

Two more points about this deal with two former Captains: Aizen and Tousen. With Aizen, we saw Soi Fon and Yoruichi attack him in the conclusion of the Hypnosis Chapters but while Yoruichi was restraining him from using his Zanpaktou, Soi Fon was clearly the only one using her blade.

http://i41.tinypic.com/2dguwsj.jpg

With Mr. Tousen, we are introduced to the concept that someone else’s Zanpaktou could be used by someone other than its original wielder.

http://i44.tinypic.com/27xqeev.jpg


The Future
Well technically this would be present but I don’t want to contradict myself. That and I want to wrap this up as soon as possible :D
We come back to what was mentioned before, the battles in Karakura, where Soi Fon is currently fighting the “Segunda Espada” Barragan Luisenbarn.

Not too long before, Soi Fon defeated his rather effeminate fraccion, Ggio Vega. In an interesting move, Soi Fon held back in order to see the limits of the arrancar in order to get an idea on how the Espada fights would turn out.

As it would be, Soi Fon said something even more interesting when it came down to main event:

http://i42.tinypic.com/2bnndx.jpg

Oh word?

I mean, its pretty much a given that the hero won’t use their best tactic unless provoked by their opposition or left with no other choice. Barragan’s theme is one of the more interesting ones IMO and I see it being expanded on for a few more chapters until Soi Fon makes her move.

What that move is, I’m not too sure but I expect either a perfected flashcry or probably bankai, if either truly exist.
This whole concept really comes down to how effective her trump card will be because in the event that it doesn’t turn out as well as she had imagined, I could call on Yoruichi entering the battlefield.

I think I should point out the fact that I favor Urahara and co. entering the battlefield over the Vaizards because it big mess just thinking about where the Vaizards would come into play.

From this angle, I can see Tessai being a huge help in the kidou department, the two fathers being a major powerhouse, Urahara being Urahara, and ultimately Yoruichi filling the role of the Jay-Z to Soi Fon’s Kanye.

This, ladies and gentlemen, is what I put together. Even though most theories and discussions are for “I told you so’s” whenever they are confirmed, I found this pretty interesting and am looking forward to logic being completely and utterly contradicted with your input. Thanks for your time.

ryanzokuken
May 09, 2009, 04:05 PM
i just have one small thing to add that will go against the idea that Suzumebachi was once Yoruichi's zanpakuto.

well, maybe two.

the first is a small, unimportant little detail that might not be of any relevance: Yoruichi is heavily cat-themed and a bee-themed stinger of a shikai wouldn't really fit her.

the second, which is the one main one i meant to point out in the first place, is that during Yoruichi's fight with Soi Fon, when Soi Fon first struck Yoruichi with Suzumebachi and explained what it does, Yoruichi was like "oh shit wtf".

her surprise/puzzlement/worry could be explained as something like:
"well maybe she was just surprised that Soi Fon was using her old zanpakutou."

but it seems to me it was her first time even seeing it or hearing of it's function. the fact that she also seemed pretty worried/fearful about it at first, along with the fact that she tried to flee and avoid Soi Fon also seems to indicate further lack of knowledge on how Suzumebachi works.

Soi Fon mentioned how over time, she lengthened the period of time the butterfly would stay on her enemy and hold the place of the first strike, and that now, it will stay forever unless she wills it away.

again, Yoruichi's lack of knowledge on it's lasting time could be explained as "maybe she just wasn't sure what level Soi Fon had trained with it to reach", but it seems more likely to me she just really didn't know anything about the zanpakuto.

all of this (Yoruichi knowing nothing of Soi Fon's zanpakuto) also fits in with us never having seen Soi Fon use one in the past while Yoruichi was around.

Ayle
May 09, 2009, 10:14 PM
Has the "golden gun" hax ever been explained anyway?

TheLoneWarrior222
May 10, 2009, 08:11 AM
I like the theory, but I don't buy it. Here is why. It's two things really.

First the Viz Translation of Soi Fon telling Yoruichi "The ability you were never able to master" is actually "The technique was imcomplete when you left".

Also, Cnet128 has Soi Fon telling Oomaeda that "That's my best move" is actually translated as "Here's a real enemy. So stop blabbering on and exposing our hand in front of him." http://mangahelpers.com/t/cnet128/releases/3013

It also has a different translation at Manga Share.
http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-333/page015.html

~Joshua~
May 10, 2009, 04:30 PM
i just have one small thing to add that will go against the idea that Suzumebachi was once Yoruichi's zanpakuto.

well, maybe two.

the first is a small, unimportant little detail that might not be of any relevance: Yoruichi is heavily cat-themed and a bee-themed stinger of a shikai wouldn't really fit her.

the second, which is the one main one i meant to point out in the first place, is that during Yoruichi's fight with Soi Fon, when Soi Fon first struck Yoruichi with Suzumebachi and explained what it does, Yoruichi was like "oh shit wtf".

her surprise/puzzlement/worry could be explained as something like:
"well maybe she was just surprised that Soi Fon was using her old zanpakutou."

but it seems to me it was her first time even seeing it or hearing of it's function. the fact that she also seemed pretty worried/fearful about it at first, along with the fact that she tried to flee and avoid Soi Fon also seems to indicate further lack of knowledge on how Suzumebachi works.

Soi Fon mentioned how over time, she lengthened the period of time the butterfly would stay on her enemy and hold the place of the first strike, and that now, it will stay forever unless she wills it away.

again, Yoruichi's lack of knowledge on it's lasting time could be explained as "maybe she just wasn't sure what level Soi Fon had trained with it to reach", but it seems more likely to me she just really didn't know anything about the zanpakuto.

all of this (Yoruichi knowing nothing of Soi Fon's zanpakuto) also fits in with us never having seen Soi Fon use one in the past while Yoruichi was around.

Perhaps then, when a different wielder other than the original uses the zanpakuto, the nature of the blade changes. By theme and not by technique of course.

Sleek21
May 11, 2009, 09:03 PM
There are things I do and do not like about this idea and I'll try to explain them adequately without having to paste manga scans on account of me being incredibly lazy. Don't judge. Ho business wears on me. :hm

On the one hand, I think the idea of Yoruichi passing down her zanpaktou is interesting. It would definitely fill a few blanks as to why she is hardly ever seen with her own, aside from simply not liking to use it. I could imagine the title of Specials Ops leader coming with a specific set of techniques and equipment, including a zanpaktou that molds according to it's wielder. This would also explain why Soi Fon knew of the Flashcry technique, but not about Yoruichi being able to use it it; I don't think Soi Fon would forget seeing something like that from Yoruichi so it likely wasn't taught by her. I also don't remember Yoruichi saying that she was the one that specifically created it, only that it was incredibly unrefined.

On the other hand, leaving behind something as important as one's zanpaktou seems like something that only happens when one has passed away and then begs the question how or why did she acquire a new one. Soi Fon said that Yoruichi left without a trace or notice; there was no mention of any belongings being left behind and if they were, I don't believe one bodyguard would be the one to receive it. That, and her sword has been seen very briefly during the SS Arc and one time after that if I'm not mistaken.

In short, it's an interesting theory to be sure but I had always gotten the impression that the four noble houses each favored one mode of Shinigami fighting; The Shihoin House (sp?) favors shunpo and to a lesser extent, hand to hand fighting and carrying a sword around when it's not used would just be burdensome, I don't really know if she left it for anyone. Soi Fon's reasoning for not using her bankai by now might simply be because it's not offensive or that she's trying to be a hero and wait until the last minute.

hyn_pride93
May 12, 2009, 12:41 AM
First off, nice theory RICKisBOSS. This could indeed be very true seeing as to how Tousen took his zanpaktou from another person and it now has two different personalities (the first originating from the original owner, and the second being his own personality). Soi Fon could possibly have Yoruichi's zanpaktou and it now has more than one persona within it.

I would just like to say that I agree with Ryanzokuken though. Yoruichi is more of a felion. Another thing is that her zanpaktou's shape and size are different too.

stevenash
May 12, 2009, 06:16 AM
We only see how Ichigo acquired his zanpakutou....boom...and there he is with his shikai....however...seeing from the fact that Shinigami academy exist...it seems like most people got asauchi first....and probably then manifest their reiatsu in that asauchi...or delve deep into their souls and pull it out?...then seeing that...a zapakutou is just another ordinary sword...so her taking Yoruchi's is very plausible. :D

zerocooldx
May 12, 2009, 04:15 PM
From what we now to be true, each Zanpaktou is unique to it's own Shinigami. The Zanpaktou is a part of the Shinigami, it directly reflects their personality and fighting style. As we have seen with Zangetsu, and other Zanpaktous, each one is tailored to a specific Shinigami. So i don't buy that Zanpaktou's can be used by more than one person. And i better not hear about the Diamond Dust Rebellion, because that has nothing to do with the main story line.

Besides Yoruichi does not need to have a Zanpaktou to be a Shinigami or a captain. I know she was a Soul Society captain and all but i just don't remember Kubo ever saying/showing us anything about her having a Zanpaktou. Plus Tessai and Hachigen are not traditional Shinigami, meaning they don't have Zanpaktous, and yet they had high seated positions. Also as far as we know Yoruichi is the only person who can "shape shift" and obviously she posesses a power thats neither a traditional Kido or any type of a Zanpaktou related power. She could very well just be a unique character, with no strings attached.

Forever_Melody
May 12, 2009, 04:25 PM
From what we now to be true, each Zanpaktou is unique to it's own Shinigami. The Zanpaktou is a part of the Shinigami, it directly reflects their personality and fighting style. As we have seen with Zangetsu, and other Zanpaktous, each one is tailored to a specific Shinigami. So i don't buy that Zanpaktou's can be used by more than one person. And i better not hear about the Diamond Dust Rebellion, because that has nothing to do with the main story line.

Well Tousen uses a Zanpakuto that's not his.... (he took it off his friend's grave) Here's the link (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/148/09/)

Arguably though, the powers his Suzumushi displays seem to be related to his character's theme, but the blade itself is not his own.

Therefore, technically, we have an example of a shinigami using a Zanpakuto that isn't theirs.


Besides Yoruichi does not need to have a Zanpaktou to be a Shinigami or a captain. I know she was a Soul Society captain and all but i just don't remember Kubo ever saying/showing us anything about her having a Zanpaktou. Plus Tessai and Hachigen are not traditional Shinigami, meaning they don't have Zanpaktous, and yet they had high seated positions. Also as far as we know Yoruichi is the only person who can "shape shift" and obviously she posesses a power thats neither a traditional Kido or any type of a Zanpaktou related power. She could very well just be a unique character, with no strings attached.
Well Yoruichi was shown to have a Zanpakuto in the past(link (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/130/10/)) and hachigen DOES have a Zanpakuto as well(link (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/216/16-17/), his is the one below Shinji's. If you count there are 7 Zanpakutos so one for each character present except Ichigo). Therefore, Tessai is the only exception so far of a shinigami who doesn't display a Zanpakuto.

We know Yoruichi had a blade at one point, but doesn't anymore. That's the crux of the mystery here.

zerocooldx
May 12, 2009, 04:46 PM
Well Tousen uses a Zanpakuto that's not his.... (he took it off his friend's grave) Here's the link (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/148/09/)

Arguably though, the powers his Suzumushi displays seem to be related to his character's theme, but the blade itself is not his own.

Therefore, technically, we have an example of a shinigami using a Zanpakuto that isn't theirs.


Well Yoruichi was shown to have a Zanpakuto in the past(link (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/130/10/)) and hachigen DOES have a Zanpakuto as well(link (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/216/16-17/), his is the one below Shinji's. If you count there are 7 Zanpakutos so one for each character present except Ichigo). Therefore, Tessai is the only exception so far of a shinigami who doesn't display a Zanpakuto.

We know Yoruichi had a blade at one point, but doesn't anymore. That's the crux of the mystery here.

Oh wow i never noticed there was a seventh sword there, but how come we never saw it in the flash back? It's the sort of like the reverse of Yoruichi. But Tessai as far as we know has no Zanpaktou, yet he was the head of a pretty powerfull division. Also Yoruichi was the head of the Punishment Force, who all carry those same short balded swords, its as if they hand them out when you join. And frankly all the "traditional" Shinigami we have seen carry some type of a sword. Even in the Soul Society Academy, so i'm not sure that all of those Zanpaktou's posess an entity within them. There may be an extra step involved, like hearing your Zanpaktou's name it order to fully aweaken it and allow it to "live", maybe ShiKai is what gives a Zanpaktou it's "soul" and "entity". Which could possibly explain Tousen's Zanpaktou. And maybe untill ShiKai all it is is just a normal sword w/o a name or any power, i don't know all we have to go off of is Ichigo.

Forever_Melody
May 12, 2009, 05:07 PM
Oh wow i never noticed there was a seventh sword there, but how come we never saw it in the flash back? It's the sort of like the reverse of Yoruichi. Also Yoruichi was the head of the Punishment Force, who all carry those same short balded swords, its as if they hand them out when you join. And frankly all the "traditional" Shinigami we have seen carry some type of a sword. Even in the Soul Society Academy, so i'm not sure that all of those Zanpaktou's posess an entity within them. There may be an extra step involved, like hearing your Zanpaktou's name it order to fully aweaken it and allow it to "live", but all we have to go off of is Ichigo.

Well this kind of shows that just because a shinigami is shown/not shown with a Zanpakuto doesn't mean he/she doesn't have one.

Since a Zanpakuto is a physical manifestation of a shinigami's power, I'd be prone to say all shinigami have one, regardless if they decide to use it or not. I mean, in the case of their job(i.e. ferrying the dead and hunting hollows), the Zanpakuto is necessary for the latter task so I'd say they at least should all have one at their disposal if needed, simply that some chose not to use them for one reason or another.

So far, I don't recall any other sword-like weapons the shinigami use that aren't Zanpakutos. And yes, you can have a sealed Zanpakuto which carries no powers at all until you awaken it. Kenpachi is the perfect example. Therefore, I'd be prone to say most(if not all) swords used by shinigami in the series so far were Zanpakuto, just that perhaps some were simply not awakened.

stevenash
May 12, 2009, 05:10 PM
Hachigen and Tessai are from Kido corps...they use kido mostly...:D...no need for swords...

zerocooldx
May 12, 2009, 05:19 PM
Well this kind of shows that just because a shinigami is shown/not shown with a Zanpakuto doesn't mean he/she doesn't have one.

Since a Zanpakuto is a physical manifestation of a shinigami's power, I'd be prone to say all shinigami have one, regardless if they decide to use it or not. I mean, in the case of their job(i.e. ferrying the dead and hunting hollows), the Zanpakuto is necessary for the latter task so I'd say they at least should all have one at their disposal if needed, simply that some chose not to use them for one reason or another.

So far, I don't recall any other sword-like weapons the shinigami use that aren't Zanpakutos. And yes, you can have a sealed Zanpakuto which carries no powers at all until you awaken it. Kenpachi is the perfect example. Therefore, I'd be prone to say most(if not all) swords used by shinigami in the series so far were Zanpakuto, just that perhaps some were simply not awakened.

Well Tessai is still a mystery to me, as well as those induviduals who "seal" or "prepare" things, the ones we saw with Rukia's executioin, they are all Shinigami right? I just think Shinigami in Soul Society get, from some place, a "regular" sword untill they gain a high enough power to manifest it into a "real" Zanpakuto. Which results in the level of ShiKai, kind of like what Zaraki did. I say this Because Ichigo had Rukia's power and he didn't know of any Zanpakuto spirit. Which could show that one, "awakened" Zanpakuto can only be used to their full potential by their "original" Shinigami. And two Ichigo himself had the handle of "his" old sword when he awoke Zangetsu, so Shinigami may really just have normal swords untill they reach a certain point in power. Which also can explain the Punishment Force members all having similar swords as well as the Academy students having swords, and maybe even how Tousen got "his" Zanpakuto.

Forever_Melody
May 12, 2009, 06:02 PM
Actually, there is such a thing as unreleased state.

Most shingami(with the exception of Ichigo & Kenpachi) kepe their Zanpakuto in this unreleased state when not using it. It just looks like a regular sword then. The only noticeable difference normally is the hilt(and in Kyouraku's case, the fact that there are 2).

Therefore, lesser level shinigami might simply have Zanpakutos which are unreleased. It's still their blade, but they haven't awakened the blade and communicated with the spirit enough to know its name and therefore call upon the Shikai.

Anyways, we're drifting off-topic here lol :p

zerocooldx
May 12, 2009, 06:56 PM
Actually, there is such a thing as unreleased state.

Most shingami(with the exception of Ichigo & Kenpachi) kepe their Zanpakuto in this unreleased state when not using it. It just looks like a regular sword then. The only noticeable difference normally is the hilt(and in Kyouraku's case, the fact that there are 2).

Therefore, lesser level shinigami might simply have Zanpakutos which are unreleased. It's still their blade, but they haven't awakened the blade and communicated with the spirit enough to know its name and therefore call upon the Shikai.

Anyways, we're drifting off-topic here lol :p

Well we really aren't off topic, because we are still talking about Zanpakuto's, which is a part of this topic. Think about it, all Shinigami are not born with Zanpakuto's, they recieve one when they join the Academy. Reason i say this is because in the flash backs of Renji, Rukia and Hitsugaya, when they were kids they had no Zanpakuto's. They were just normal souls living outside of Seiretei. So the question is how did they get their Zanpakuto's? It can't be through the same process that Ichigo got Zangetsu, because Ichigo was turned into his soul form and the people in Soul Society are already souls. But Ichigo did have the handle of his previous sword which he used to channel his reiatsu through and "create" Zangetsu. So this means that when anyone joines the Soul Society Academy or recieves special training, they are all given a regular sword called an Asauchi to train with. And once a Shinigami gains enough power, or reiatsu, then they allow their swords to become true Zanpakuto's through awakening their Shikai. Which is the "birth" of a Zanpakuto. When that happens the Shinigami learns their Zanpakuto's name, they also learn attacks and so on.

Similar to what we saw with Ichigo, he already had a lot of reiatsu, because of his father, so he was able to awaken his Zanpakuto rather quicky. He didn't have to train and build up his reiatsu, which is one of the things that the Soul Society Academy is intended for. And as Shinigami join the Gotei 13 they continue to gain more power, and eventually they learn Bankai or what not. And the more power Shinigami gain the more power they unlock from their Zanpakuto's. Now in Yoruichi's case she could have simply decided not to rely on her sword in battles. Thus never awakening it, that manga picture was a flash back to when Yoruichi and Kisuke first met and they were probably just starting out in the Gotei 13, so naturally she still had her given sword. But in every other flash back, which takes place after the aforementioned manga picture, she has no Zanpakuto. So Yoruichi could have done something similar to that of Zaraki, except she uses hand to hand combat and kido, but essentially she relies on her own power. Even though having a Zanpakuto in battle is an advantage, there are those people who just choose not to use them, and i think that Yoruichi and possobly even Tessai are in the group.

Forever_Melody
May 12, 2009, 07:22 PM
Hmm an interesting idea certainly...

However, like I said, unless Yoruichi knew right away she wasn't going to be hollow hunting, not having a Zanpakuto doesn't work as its the only known way for shinigami to cleanse hollows. The reason Quincy never made it popular among SS is because they didn't cleanse hollows but killed and disintegrated their souls. A shinigami zanpakuto cleanses the hollow's soul and returns it to the great equation(i.e. reincarnation and blah blah).

That's like saying a construction company's CEO who doesn't have a hammer >.> Unless he knew right from the get go he'd never pin a nail, he would probably need to get a hammer and work his way up.

Therefore, perhaps, if say through her lineage, Yoruichi knew very early in her life that she wouldn't be dealing with hollows, it's possible she could have neglected to get/awaken a Zanpakuto. Otherwise, it'd make no sense considering what shinigami are :s

Same logic with Tessai. Unless he KNEW he wasn't ever going to deal with hollows like most shinigami do, then yes, he might have allowed/neglected the awakening of a Zanpakuto.

And even so, isn't the 2nd Division Special Ops? That might include special missions concerning hollows >.>

zerocooldx
May 12, 2009, 07:41 PM
There are just certain positions or individuals who either don't need or don't feel the need to use Zanpakutos. And we are discussing this because Yoruichi is the character that we have seen the longest w/o a Zanpakuto who is also a pretty important figure in the series. Also as we have recently seen Tessai is someone who will/may play a somewhat larger role in the series as well, who also does not seem to have a Zanpakuto. So i don't know maybe we will get an "official" answer about certain Shinigami not having Zanpakuto or maybe we won't, but i've put in my two sense about it.

Dark God Zeus
May 13, 2009, 11:56 PM
To be a captain (minus kenpachi) you have to demonstrate the ability to use bankai. Yoroichi HAD to have had a zanpaktou, though, it doesn't mean she relies on it.

First Supervillain
May 14, 2009, 12:24 AM
To be a captain (minus kenpachi) you have to demonstrate the ability to use bankai. Yoroichi HAD to have had a zanpaktou, though, it doesn't mean she relies on it.

Yoruichi says that she can control her zanpakuto longer than before. Yoruichi doesn't know all of its powers until Soifon tells her. Yoruichi would have had bankai. She would have know all of its powers. CASE CLOSED.

Tsukisama
May 14, 2009, 12:51 AM
Firstly, this thread is greatly off-topic and needs to get back onto the topic now.

Secondly, I don't think that I fully understand what the "theory" is here. What is being predicted or theorized? Is it that Soi Fon has a bankai? If so, Yoruichi already stated that Kenpachi Zaraki is the only Gotei 13 captain ever to achieve the position without having a bankai.

Is this thread about Yoruichi and her sorely misunderstood "connection" to Suzumebachi? If so, this has already been addressed in the thread devoted to Yoruichi's zanpakutou (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41764), which already addresses the mistranslation that comes from the scanlation on OneManga (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1080258#post1080258). Suzumebachi is and seemingly always has been the zanpakutou of Soi Fon. Seriously, don't use OneManga as the basis of all theories; at least compare the translation to some other translation first.

RICKisBOSS
May 14, 2009, 06:19 PM
Pretty interesting points, guys. Of course I don't plan on addressing each and every one considering the thread got a bit derailed but it's no biggie. I do, however, have one point to make. A few actually.

The title of this thread is "The Suzumebachi Theory" and I'm questioning the possibility of Soi Fon's zanpaktou formerly being Yoruichi's. I really don't see how that could come off as confusing and on top of that, can't see myself basing something I was wondering about and going off to see if anyone else had threaded it to be quite honest.

We could only base opinions off of what we've seen and I tried to keep in mind the fact that fan translations may be off but again, off of what we've seen in the series, I don't think my original question comes off as something with a weak basis.

Seriously, feel free to use whatever we've seen in the manga when talking about the theory; I'd at least prefer that over a link to another thread that's related by name-only at best.