PDA

View Full Version : How I think Zoro Survived Luffy's Pain



neomaster121
October 26, 2008, 09:53 AM
Ok it has been a few days but it suddenly hit me
luffy's pain was endured because his will and determination allowed him to do so.
People pass out when pain gets far too much yet luffy continued battling through until his enemies defeat

Zoro with both a similar will and goal, also fights pushing through the limits of pain to achieve strength the only way to do so is to have the will power to do so

Now luffy has a rubber body so the will needed to contain that damage isn't great, but with gears Luffy is physically pushed past any normal human being limits

now Zoro took the pain of a person who was made of rubber (mean luffy could take a lot more damage and pain) yet he still survived the pain, staying awake for sanji to find him and waking up 2 days later (faster than luffy normally takes to recover)
Zoro was also overcoming the pain he contained himself through will power as he fought kuma.

My theory is that the only reason why Zoro survived luffy and his own pain through will power is because he has the same will/haki as luffy

i don't think it's the same colour but i think its both king haki

Simular to gold rodger pirate king and Silver dark king
I think Zoro has a demonic version of the king haki same as silver

I think if he didn't have the will/haki of the same type of luffy then he would have died from taking the pain, I believe kuma knew this and Zoro figured this out and that’s why he thanked him, I believe Zoro realises the change he's going through in terms of will power and I think we maybe seeing a mini story for Zoro straight after luffys to show this and prove my theory right.

Well thats my thoughts on the matter, what do you guys think

bittman
October 26, 2008, 07:00 PM
I also thought about the Haki type of Zoro given the likliness he will also be using Haki rather soon. The parallel between Gol Roger and Silvers Rayleigh was also on my mind when I was thinking about this.

I would think that Zoro would work well with a dominating Sovereign-type Haki given the amount of times we've seen him imbue fear in his opponents with his dark eyes. That said, the Strawhat crew is a small crew and I doubt they will all learn Haki, so having different types (assuming there are more than one special type) amongst the few members of the Strawhat crew would be a bit overused. Then again, Zoro and Luffy have always been comparable in strength, and this may only server to further their comradeship/rivalry.

But more on topic: I never thought Haki would have anything to do with surviving the pain. The moment Zoro was shown bloody but standing after taking all the damage, I instantly thought "Yep, I can believe that". If you look at all the arcs and the many battles that have been had, Zoro has always taken a high amount of damage compared to the rest of the crew and even Luffy (at times). Zoro has always been more of a tank who can move beyond the pain barrier to defeat his opponents. In the TB arc, Zoro may have indeed been heavily injured, but there were no serious wounds received from Oz/Moria that I would count as severe as those he received from Mihawk or Mr 1. Luffy's damage was also more self-damage than anything else, and though combined this would probably kill most people, Zoro is definitely not most people.

However, the theory is nice and might work. But if it doesn't and the pain is never explained further, I can still live with it.

Onomatopoeia
October 26, 2008, 07:15 PM
Zoro has always been a bit of a tank if I do say so myself, I'd say the best example for that would probablly be Alabasta Arc. It's completely believable that he survived all that simply because of that. Haki really doesn't need to be included in the equation for it to make sense.

Sachsenhesse
October 27, 2008, 10:34 AM
Zoro has always been a bit of a tank if I do say so myself, I'd say the best example for that would probablly be Alabasta Arc. It's completely believable that he survived all that simply because of that. Haki really doesn't need to be included in the equation for it to make sense.

Hrm... but alabasta ist the best example for haki... just remember zoro has cut the devilpower, in other words he negated the devilfruit. And his legendary sentence "i hear the breathing of his". :/ Combined with rogers "he had the power to hear anything".

I dont know, but i believe this is related.

But in one point i agree with you. Zoro is tank, a damn monster.

neomaster121
October 27, 2008, 12:23 PM
I also thought about the Haki type of Zoro given the likliness he will also be using Haki rather soon. The parallel between Gol Roger and Silvers Rayleigh was also on my mind when I was thinking about this.

I would think that Zoro would work well with a dominating Sovereign-type Haki given the amount of times we've seen him imbue fear in his opponents with his dark eyes. That said, the Strawhat crew is a small crew and I doubt they will all learn Haki, so having different types (assuming there are more than one special type) amongst the few members of the Strawhat crew would be a bit overused. Then again, Zoro and Luffy have always been comparable in strength, and this may only server to further their comradeship/rivalry.

But more on topic: I never thought Haki would have anything to do with surviving the pain. The moment Zoro was shown bloody but standing after taking all the damage, I instantly thought "Yep, I can believe that". If you look at all the arcs and the many battles that have been had, Zoro has always taken a high amount of damage compared to the rest of the crew and even Luffy (at times). Zoro has always been more of a tank who can move beyond the pain barrier to defeat his opponents. In the TB arc, Zoro may have indeed been heavily injured, but there were no serious wounds received from Oz/Moria that I would count as severe as those he received from Mihawk or Mr 1. Luffy's damage was also more self-damage than anything else, and though combined this would probably kill most people, Zoro is definitely not most people.

However, the theory is nice and might work. But if it doesn't and the pain is never explained further, I can still live with it.

yea fair enough, the reason i've thought up the theory is because i couldn't believe Oda would set that all up, making Zoro still suffer from that same pain then having him say kuma helped without further exploring how and why he survived the pain.
By theory is just linking will power to pain and i just thinking maybe thats the track Oda was taking just before he introduced luffys haki


Zoro has always been a bit of a tank if I do say so myself, I'd say the best example for that would probablly be Alabasta Arc. It's completely believable that he survived all that simply because of that. Haki really doesn't need to be included in the equation for it to make sense.

Haki is also known as will power and ambition, how much pain someone can take depends on their will, also depends on if they need to take the pain, people in real life can go through unimaginalble pain just with will power allowed.


Hrm... but alabasta ist the best example for haki... just remember zoro has cut the devilpower, in other words he negated the devilfruit. And his legendary sentence "i hear the breathing of his". :/ Combined with rogers "he had the power to hear anything".

I dont know, but i believe this is related.

But in one point i agree with you. Zoro is tank, a damn monster.

exactly thats what i'm thinking
Zoro out of all others in the crew seems to have been the earliest user of haki, and to withstand all that pain he would have needed alot of will power, thats why i think kuma knew Zoro would survive cause he too could feel Zoro's haki in his speech and while he fought Zoro

Razh
October 27, 2008, 01:12 PM
Hrm... but alabasta ist the best example for haki... just remember zoro has cut the devilpower, in other words he negated the devilfruit. And his legendary sentence "i hear the breathing of his". :/ Combined with rogers "he had the power to hear anything".

I dont know, but i believe this is related.

But in one point i agree with you. Zoro is tank, a damn monster.

Maybe it's true.
But I kinda resent the fact that lately, everyone tries to explain everything with Haki.

BTW, Zoro didn't negate devil fruit, he cut through steel. Devil power was in effect and Zoro cut through it. No negation.
I can give reference if needed.

Sachsenhesse
October 27, 2008, 01:28 PM
yes he cut through steel, but that steel was made from devil fruit and i want it that, that was not made by haki, i just found it possible after what we have seen in the last chapters

BlackHair
October 27, 2008, 02:54 PM
I agree with Ono



Haki is also known as will power and ambition, how much pain someone can take depends on their will, also depends on if they need to take the pain, people in real life can go through unimaginalble pain just with will power allowed.
Yes, but a trained body helps more.. trust me.

U did put that all well together in words. But I just don't like the simple idea of everything in the past be haki related.

Onomatopoeia
October 27, 2008, 03:09 PM
Hrm... but alabasta ist the best example for haki... just remember zoro has cut the devilpower, in other words he negated the devilfruit. And his legendary sentence "i hear the breathing of his". :/ Combined with rogers "he had the power to hear anything".

I dont know, but i believe this is related.

But in one point i agree with you. Zoro is tank, a damn monster.

Theirs two problems

Zoro started talking about hearing all things after he took all the damage.

And he was only talking about Swords,we don't know and from the sounds of it, it doesn't seem like he knew how to do anything else with Haki.

Though I do think theirs a high possibility that the scene your talking about was Haki.

Sachsenhesse
October 28, 2008, 04:25 AM
Theirs two problems

Zoro started talking about hearing all things after he took all the damage.

And he was only talking about Swords,we don't know and from the sounds of it, it doesn't seem like he knew how to do anything else with Haki.

Though I do think theirs a high possibility that the scene your talking about was Haki.

Yes he heard that after taking great damage, isnt it a wonder of his will that could stand after this? So i think... great will (he wanted to defeat that guy, cut through steel and support his nakamas) leads to the use of haki. We see the same right now by ruffy. He wants to protect margarete and unleahes his haki.

If i´m not wrong he dont only talks about swords, he had know where rocks are falling and where his sword lies. He also said he hears the voice of the plants too, if i´m not totally wrong.

As longer i think about it, i think it was haki. :/

Mr.Popo
October 29, 2008, 07:18 PM
I like to make one thing clear: THIS IS A MANGA.
Haki is a NEW figthing technique in One Piece. That means it was never used before in an important way, especially NOT by the main characters. It's not a physical law that was explained and applies retroactively.
If haki was used in the past, Oda will state so.

DFs where mostly unimportant and unknown/mystical in East Blue. Then just before the Grand Line in Logue Town it was foreshadowed that it will be important on the Grand Line.
It's the same with Haki now. Haki is unknown on the Grand Line and now it is foreshadowed that it will be important in the New World.

Now Luffy is indeed a rubber man and can take probably more and more powerful hits than others, but that has nothing to with damage.
Being rubber doesn't change the amount of damage Luffy can take before passing out or dying. Rubber reduces the amount of damage inflicted by a hit, so he can take more hits, but not more damage.

And i like to distinguish between will power and haki. Will power seems to be not that important for using haki. All the amazons can use haki, but not all could withstand Luffys blast.

So why is Zorro still alive?
I think it was a new record mark for Zorro in terms of damage, pain and fatigue and after reading that chapter i thought: Zorro is stronger than Luffy!
While Zorro wasn't in his best condition, he was farther away from death than after the fight against Mihawk. So he was able to take some more damage.
I don't know how much damage Luffy had, but his fatigue and pain was high enough to make him unconscious. And for Zorro to take that atop of his own pack and still being able to stand can only mean his durability is much higher than Luffys!

DutchPhoenix
October 30, 2008, 05:02 AM
zoro could take more becouse his body is much better trained ^^

Obito
October 30, 2008, 05:35 PM
There will probably be a clash between Luffy and Zoro at the end of one piece which is why Oda has built them up to be equals.

fallou
October 30, 2008, 09:19 PM
Lol neomaster I think you really luuuuuuuuv zoro:D
Im not making fun of you here, it's just that you always try to point out that he's strong, cool, etc..Anyway, I don't know if his survival has anything to do with haki. I'd say that it's his will to live until he has accomplished his goal, combined with that superhuman strengh and resistance to injuries(Mihawk, mr 1,Enel) that allowed him to survive..And I even though I don't know about king haki or anything:D, I think he has the same kinda will than Luffy, cause he's aiming for strongest, same as Luffy(well, pirate king means strongest in some way doesn't it?) whereas the other don't have battle-related dreams..

neomaster121
November 01, 2008, 06:44 AM
fallou Zoro's a cool hard working guy he is my favourite character but i don't love him lol

i think Zoro and Luffy should have a bit more personal development with each other and it would be a nice way to die them together, thats what i thought when zoro took all of luffy's pain
and i'm still hoping for some zoro luffy development just like a captain first mate should be

Your right both have goals of being the best and luffys always seemed to be like gold rodger n now we are introduced to what should be zoro's 22 year ago counter part silver seemingly having king haki makes me think zoro would have it

plus theres a link between will power and how much pain a person could go through but its just my theory and like most of my theories with zoro they tend to be wrong hehehe

Oblivion
November 01, 2008, 02:20 PM
i really think there is no point to HOW he could endure it, it was all shown for two reason. 1. Kuma isnt really that bad of a guy (maybe he IS, but here he disobyed the marines and give the crew an option to save their captain) and just how BADASS Zorro is. just as bittman said: he is a tank. he is the one lifting a bazillion weights to overcome all the DF users with brute strenght. (though he seems to have some kind of demon like haki)

zoros strenghts comes from hard work, and this was displayed here quite well. amongst all the badass DF user, he is the guy without DF and as of now still without haki and STILL A MEANMACHINE !!! ;)

Lord Rayleigh
February 23, 2009, 06:44 AM
I think if he didn't have the will/haki of the same type of luffy then he would have died from taking the pain, I believe kuma knew this and Zoro figured this out and that’s why he thanked him, I believe Zoro realises the change he's going through in terms of will power and I think we maybe seeing a mini story for Zoro straight after luffys to show this and prove my theory right.

The mini-story to develop demonic power is obviously linked to the island he was sent to by Kuma.
Don't you think the environment of this island, with dark castle, sombre air and Perona - Princess of the Ghosts - is related to demonic power ?

neomaster121
February 23, 2009, 11:22 AM
The mini-story to develop demonic power is obviously linked to the island he was sent to by Kuma.
Don't you think the environment of this island, with dark castle, sombre air and Perona - Princess of the Ghosts - is related to demonic power ?

Yea i assume hes like silver n would hold the dark king rather than luffy king haki (dark as in demonic)

but im not so sure now if we will see zoro's mini story devlop him with haki properly as luffy only got told what haki he had, no training so who knows what will happen with Zoro

Onomatopoeia
February 23, 2009, 12:13 PM
Haki is also known as will power and ambition, how much pain someone can take depends on their will, also depends on if they need to take the pain, people in real life can go through unimaginalble pain just with will power allowed.


Let's test this then. You get all the will in the world. I get a super Durable armor(Zoro is durable) and experience with all sorts of cutting damage(Zoro has experience with taking damage).

We both get Katana's and we try to find out who will win.

When you can't chop my arm off(the durability armor stops me from feeling a lot of pain) and I cleanly slice yours off we'll see how much Will can help.

It's nice to have a lot of will but being durable(aka like Zoro) is WAY more useful. Zoro has always been a Tank I could site a fair amount of times where he's taken extensive damage. Having said that the existence of will is not Haki, otherwise everyone would be dropping people to the ground every second of the day.

I'd imagine that Haki includes the need to be able to channel a large amount of Spirit/Will to a great extent.

Note: The above is a theory.

Razh
February 23, 2009, 12:57 PM
It's nice to have a lot of will but being durable(aka like Zoro) is WAY more useful. Zoro has always been a Tank I could site a fair amount of times where he's taken extensive damage. Having said that the existence of will is not Haki, otherwise everyone would be dropping people to the ground every second of the day.


You can't split the two in Zoro's case, cause the both are important for him. Part of his durability is powered by his will. The will to keep fighting even when most people would give up or succumb to their wounds. You can be as durable as a mountain, but without any will to back it up, you won't go far.

neovenom
February 23, 2009, 03:11 PM
The mini-story to develop demonic power is obviously linked to the island he was sent to by Kuma.
Don't you think the environment of this island, with dark castle, sombre air and Perona - Princess of the Ghosts - is related to demonic power ?

zoro will summon dragon of the darkness flame in his asura mode lol

neomaster121
February 23, 2009, 03:34 PM
Let's test this then. You get all the will in the world. I get a super Durable armor(Zoro is durable) and experience with all sorts of cutting damage(Zoro has experience with taking damage).

We both get Katana's and we try to find out who will win.

When you can't chop my arm off(the durability armor stops me from feeling a lot of pain) and I cleanly slice yours off we'll see how much Will can help.

Note: The above is a theory.

i usually find when people make inprobably senarioes that its due to not being able to shoot down the idea properly (i've done so myself before :) )

but as in mihawk vs Zoro mihawk clearly outclassed Zoro but mihawk saw the great will power Zoro possessed even though there was no chance of Zoro winning no matter how much will he had
but note i was talking about pain not direct removal of limbs xD

yes if you cut my arms off theres not much i can do, unless im skilled with my teeth and feet and go zabuza style on your ass lol

Lord Rayleigh
February 23, 2009, 04:38 PM
Pain is not exactly the same as damages. Pain is the consequence of the damages, a sort of alarm system your body gets to inform you about what you are going through. Pain is linked to physic sensation.

So pain can be endured whereas damages not. You don't endure damages (I mean even if you have a strong mental, you take the damages) : if you cut Zoro's arm, he is cut. But he can try to endure the pain to continue fighting without the arm.

What Zoro got was, by definition, the physic sensation, not the damages directly : it was the suffering as Kuma said.
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/485/15/

And the pain (and fatigue) was supposed to give him damages and kill him (Kuma said " lead to death). The processus was reversed. So, if he was able to endure the pain, he would not have the reversed effects of the pain, the damages, and would not die. I figured it like that.

And as Zoro is able to endure pain and fatigue, he managed to have not all the reversed effects (all the damages) and hasn't been killed. It's why I think. So, the will of Zoro would have indeed a great importance in that case.

bittman
February 23, 2009, 05:53 PM
Sorry to backtrack a little, but I'm always baffled how people think Zoro has more durability than Luffy because without Luffy having a rubber body he'd be weak? I don't know and I don't get it because:
A) Who knows what he would be like without a rubber body? He didn't exactly break bones against Sentomaru.
B) He has a rubber body, it's not going away tomorrow.

Then people show me how Zoro takes large amounts of slashing damage and how that's Luffy's main weakness, and I still scratch my head. Zoro is often pitted against those who can dish out slashing damage (Mr 1, Kaku, iron cloud priest) whereas Luffy seems to get a pretty wide mix of attacks from opponents which often break through his rubber skin.

I just fail to see where Zoro fans are really coming from on the point of durability compared to Luffy when I look at things.

On the topic though: I don't buy into this Haki thing, it would be a large explanation with no real final motive to providing us with a wall of text. I believe Zoro took the damage because he is awesome, and a large amount of Luffy's "damage" was physical fatigue more than actual bodily harm. Zoro took the 3 days to get over the fatigue, he is still getting over the combination of his and Luffy's bodily harm however.

Lord Rayleigh
February 23, 2009, 08:32 PM
This has nothing to do with the strenght of Luffy, if he is better than Zoro for endurance etc ... Zoro is Zoro. We're talking about him, not about Luffy's abilities. I don't know why people have to talk about Luffy's capacities to jauge if Zoro is able to do something or not.

Yes, it was Luffy's pain and fatigue BUT whatever are their level of strenght or what you want, Zoro has been able to take it : that's the fact. At this moment, Zoro survives : that's all.

Now, the question is simply why ?
This has all to do with the way to endure pain because this is mere pain as Kuma said himself.

Now, you don't have to think this is haki what helps him BUT this is something he's got to endure pain.
In our world, haki doesn't exist as the same way as in OP but willpower/mental resistance/etc... exist.
People are able to endure more than others because of their mental resistance to pain.

Now, we know that the way to endure pain has something to do with his mental, will etc ... It is obvious because this is a physic sensation that is involved here and because he is a human : his capacity to endure pain is not the same as the others humans. He has been quite better than normal people, because he managed thank to his determination/mental resistance to take it : he is a special guy.

Somepeople call this Haki but will is not always Haki even if it is linked. Haki is the wanted manifestation of all this (and strenght too) and we have not seen the pictures of Zoro suffering the Kuma's attack. So for the moment, we don't know if something special happened when he has touched the " big pain hand ".

We know he managed to survive thanks to thatbut we don't know if that has expressed itself out of his body, as Haki did.
But you'll agree that Haki doesn't need to get involved into this. His will/mental resistance doesn't have to be visible and to turn out to Haki to make him survive. Luffy for example doesn't have to use Haki as he did with Duval's buffalo to frighten someone. Moreover, here, it was only a battle with himself, with his pure capacities, there is no need to a manifestation to the others : I see no utility in turning it in Haki : this is not a Captain's Jango trick to himself to improve his mental resistance/will ...

And obviously, he is not able to turn it in/use Haki.

But in all the case it is his will, his mental resistance to pain that help him here. For me, there is nothing to add to that.