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shadowfox1
October 27, 2008, 08:10 AM
Personally I think in taking on one of the top 3 Espada, Toushiro has moved up in power in my book. I think that he stands a chance in beatin her. Maybe he has finally masterd his bankai.

Shaunlim
October 27, 2008, 08:55 AM
IMHO, from what he have shown so far, he is going to lose this fight. Probably going to get some help in winning this. Unless he improved drastically compared to the time against Luupi.

yellowman1
October 27, 2008, 10:42 AM
IMHO, from what he have shown so far, he is going to lose this fight. Probably going to get some help in winning this. Unless he improved drastically compared to the time against Luupi.

yea he will get help or just not finish the battle as always and hes gonna use bankai like he does against everyone!:notrust

~Joshua~
October 27, 2008, 12:51 PM
If Ichigo could have an 11 second mask time an have near infinite time against Grimmjow in HM then I believe that it's possible for Hitsugaya to increase his strength. I don't know why people keep underestimating Hitsugaya and attacking him with biased opinions for. Arguing like that would be point-less and time consuming.

Onomatopoeia
October 27, 2008, 02:46 PM
It depends are we including Ichigo's feets where he does the most retarded things ever into the equation.

If yes. Then 50/50 chance.

It also depends on whether were including the Timer THeory. If yes

Then I'd give it to Hitsugaya mopping the floor with her.

But if it's only current showings and feets then Hitsugaya gets raped, lucky bastard.

Eddy01741
October 27, 2008, 04:38 PM
Toushiro, just because Kubo will pull something out his ass in one form or another and he will win.

However, if no shit happens, then halibbel will absolutely rape toshirou.

TheChosenOne
October 27, 2008, 05:22 PM
Even though I want Halibel to come out victorious, Hitsu will likely win considering his popularity and what he brings to the story. Kubo is likely going to find some technicality to let Hitsu be the victor. I personally believe it will be something like what happened with Byakuya and Zomari; where the former had the perfect counter for the latter's release. :)

Razh
October 27, 2008, 06:57 PM
Shit, if Hitsu beats her this manga is going to go down on my list.

Espada have been hyped up to no end since they appeared, but now they seem to fall like flies. Initially, Hitsugaya had trouble with a mere Fraccion. Him being able to beat one of the top 3 Espada is unrealistic to say the least.

I sure hope he gives a hell of a fight, just as much as I hope that Halibel will prove too strong for him.

Shaunlim
October 27, 2008, 08:31 PM
Yes, it is true that the Espada were really overhyped. I mean from fraccions pwning the VC and C in the human realm(granted they had their limiter), all of them suddenly is capable of taking on Espada like flies. It's as though anything less than 4 is practically useless. For me the only fight that actually really makes any sense is Renji with Ishida against that Espada. Until he suddenly manage to survive the huge explosion anyway~~~

Onomatopoeia
October 27, 2008, 08:47 PM
Hitsugaya's Fangirls>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Vaizard Bankai Ichigo, Kenpachi, Nnoitra, Ulquiorra, and Kubo. I dare you to prove me wrong.

Aikidoka
October 27, 2008, 09:58 PM
None of Hitsugaya's fights have shown his true power. His fight with Gin was interrupted, and his battles against Aizen and Shawlong couldn't really be counted as matches: Aizen pwned Hitsugaya, and Hitsu likewise pwned Shawlong. Neither was a real battle. Hitsugaya's fight against Luppi can't be counted either. Hitsugaya was caught off by Luppi's release, and Luppi likewise overestimated Hitsu too much. So for all we know, Hitsugaya is one of the stronger captains in SS.

However, Halibel is at least #3, and therefore one of the strongest Espada. She's very likely a Vasto Lorde, and if ten of those can wipe out Soul Society, then a VL-based Arrancar should be far more powerful. Hitsugaya may be a "kid" genius, but he's nothing compared to the captains with more experience. No matter how strong he is, he wouldn't win a fight against someone who, when she was weaker, could've stormed SS with nine of her kin.

I'm betting on a really good battle though. Whoever wins in the end, I'll be happy, as long as Kubo does a good job.

shadowfox1
October 28, 2008, 07:16 AM
I don't know why people keep underestimating Hitsugaya and attacking him with biased opinions for. Arguing like that would be point-less and time consuming.

We all have our own opinions. So what people are attacking toushiro, let them in the end we will see who is the superior fighter. For those of you that like to b**** and complain, remember this is a forum. People have their own opinions to anything. So let them say what they want and move on.....

yellowman1
October 28, 2008, 09:40 AM
If Ichigo could have an 11 second mask time an have near infinite time against Grimmjow in HM then I believe that it's possible for Hitsugaya to increase his strength. I don't know why people keep underestimating Hitsugaya and attacking him with biased opinions for. Arguing like that would be point-less and time consuming.

near infinite? are u slow everyone has a limit on their mask just cause he lasted for bout 30 mins its inifinte and hit. probly will win with help then your just gonna say the person bearly helped hit is one of the weakest captain how come just about everyone fought captain? oh wait he did he got stompped in with a one hit KO my bad
[hr]

We all have our own opinions. So what people are attacking toushiro, let them in the end we will see who is the superior fighter. For those of you that like to b**** and complain, remember this is a forum. People have their own opinions to anything. So let them say what they want and move on.....

i know your low voc. cause you to curse but where on a topic about the 3rd espada and hit. not to complain at each other supply some proff and state your opinion or go to a chat room and curse or something plz sir :notrust

~Joshua~
October 28, 2008, 12:46 PM
near infinite? are u slow everyone has a limit on their mask just cause he lasted for bout 30 mins its inifinte and hit. probly will win with help then your just gonna say the person bearly helped hit is one of the weakest captain how come just about everyone fought captain? oh wait he did he got stompped in with a one hit KO my bad
<hr noshade size="1">


i know your low voc. cause you to curse but where on a topic about the 3rd espada and hit. not to complain at each other supply some proff and state your opinion or go to a chat room and curse or something plz sir :notrust

First of all, don't call me slow. I could call you slow for not being able to spell words correctly. Hitsugaya fought Ichimaru and Ichimaru was a captain at that point and Ichimaru, and to my recollection Ichimaru didn't get a hit off Hitsugaya.

kkck
October 28, 2008, 12:53 PM
Given that hitsugaya needed bankai for yami back then, I would say halibel rapes him. (as someone said before lucky bastard).
Given that kubo has severely messed up power levels I would say hitsugaya has a chance of raping halibel.
Either way toshiro gets a happy ending lol....

shadowfox1
October 28, 2008, 12:56 PM
i know your low voc. cause you to curse but where on a topic about the 3rd espada and hit. not to complain at each other supply some proff and state your opinion or go to a chat room and curse or something plz sir :notrust

Low on vocab. where do you get off telling me that I dont know proper speech. Also I know where on a topic about Halibel and toushiro, I didnt curse if you can see!! I put a star on where I expressed myself. Plus all you have on toushiro is that he had trouble against a fraccion(Luppi). Do you not see the Espada dropping off the show like flies? One by one until they are all gone,So I doubt that she will win against him.

Ket_Vonz001
October 28, 2008, 09:20 PM
Well this is how i think it will happen.....

It will start raining hard in the fake town. Then lightning and thunder come forth and strike Halibel as she's flashstepping to 1-shot our once-proud prodigy.
And to top it off, Toushiro controls the weather and rain in the atmosphere. Toushiro lowers the weather to near absolute zero degrees and causes Halibel to get a bad case of Hypothermia. Halibel is then stunned, completely motionless while wearing wide open eyes and a shocked facial expression.
It is then revealed in a flashback on Halibel's worst memories when she was still a human: her death was caused by Hypothermia. In such a severely handicapped state and in a depressing emotional wreck, Halibel has no choice but to bow down to the fearsome and strategic Hitsugaya Toushiro.

Onomatopoeia
October 28, 2008, 09:33 PM
I don't mind the theory but reading through that the first thing that hit me while reading it was

Sasuke,Kirin and perfect matchup.

kikrox1
October 28, 2008, 09:42 PM
if toushiro had trouble against number 10 how can he beat number 3 .-. it just doesnt make sense to me. he could have gotten a stronger but how much stronger in that short amout of time (it only seemed long cause of fillers). i think some people are gonna lose in this big battle and thats when the vizards are gonna jump in(like with rangiku doin 3 on 1)
[hr]

Well this is how i think it will happen.....

It will start raining hard in the fake town. Then lightning and thunder come forth and strike Halibel as she's flashstepping to 1-shot our once-proud prodigy.
And to top it off, Toushiro controls the weather and rain in the atmosphere. Toushiro lowers the weather to near absolute zero degrees and causes Halibel to get a bad case of Hypothermia. Halibel is then stunned, completely motionless while wearing wide open eyes and a shocked facial expression.
It is then revealed in a flashback on Halibel's worst memories when she was still a human: her death was caused by Hypothermia. In such a severely handicapped state and in a depressing emotional wreck, Halibel has no choice but to bow down to the fearsome and strategic Hitsugaya Toushiro.

ur scenario is funny and all but toushiro can only controly the water and turn it to ice not the weather

Onomatopoeia
October 28, 2008, 09:45 PM
Actually I think SS when Hitsugaya was in Shikai had him controlling the weather.

kikrox1
October 28, 2008, 09:48 PM
he was just making a whole lot of ice and made it cold and stuffs ._. or at least im pretty positive he was .-. there is always a possiblity of bein wrong

Aikidoka
October 28, 2008, 09:50 PM
Yeah, it can. Hitsugaya is clearly stronger than people give him credit for, but like I said on the last page Hitsu has no chance against Halibel...not when his opponent is one of the top Espada.

~Joshua~
October 29, 2008, 10:53 AM
If Ichigo is given a chance to shine against the Ulquiorra I think Hitsugaya can shine against Halibel.

gigantor21
October 29, 2008, 05:40 PM
This should be a rout on Halibel's end.

Regardless of how strong he is or whether we've seen his full strength, he couldn't even knock out Luppi with Sennen Hyourou. If he couldn't finish off Luppi with all the prep time he wanted, I don't see how he'll handle someone 3 ranks above that without the curve.

Also, we have to consider the temperament of Halibel. She, unlike Luppi, doesn't look like the type to screw around with her opponents--putting her in the minority among her narcissistic peers. Kubo doesn't have as much room to kill her with hubris. I'm expecting a straightfoward, no-nonsense approach, which puts Hitsu in a much smaller box than his matches with Shawlong and Luppi. Which is just as important as how strong they are.

yellowman1
October 29, 2008, 06:03 PM
If Ichigo is given a chance to shine against the Ulquiorra I think Hitsugaya can shine against Halibel.

ichigo has not be given a shine yet. unless you call a shine death with a hole through your chest then hit. might get a real good shine :D

hajialibaig
October 29, 2008, 06:23 PM
I see Halibel doing an Aizen on Hitsugaya (weakest captain in SS history)

shadowfox1
October 30, 2008, 09:10 AM
ur scenario is funny and all but toushiro can only controly the water and turn it to ice not the weather

Well my freind, one thing you are right about is toushiro controling water, turning it to ice. But what you don't remember is that he can control and change the weather also.remember when he faught Gin and he first released his shikai. Thats when his power was explained. someone(I dont remember who) said he can change and control the weather.:)

yellowman1
October 30, 2008, 10:43 AM
Well my freind, one thing you are right about is toushiro controling water, turning it to ice. But what you don't remember is that he can control and change the weather also.remember when he faught Gin and he first released his shikai. Thats when his power was explained. someone(I dont remember who) said he can change and control the weather.:)

halibel one of either NUMBER 1, 2, OR 3 the highest espada and yammi NUMBER 10 the lowest took hit. shikai shook it off and not even in release and said nice chill and you expect hit. to win just because yea right!

~Joshua~
October 30, 2008, 10:48 AM
How bad would it have looked if Hitsugaya kiled Yammi with one hit of his shikai and he's an Espada? It wouldn't be good for the story's development. If the fight progressed than Hitsugaya would have emerged victorious.

yellowman1
October 30, 2008, 10:54 AM
How bad would it have looked if Hitsugaya kiled Yammi with one hit of his shikai and he's an Espada? It wouldn't be good for the story's development. If the fight progressed than Hitsugaya would have emerged victorious.

joshua why are you always taking it out of context where not talking about story deveploment where talking if he can when which he cant his shikai couldnt even do nothing to the 10th espada unreleased it should have hurt him at least!

Shaunlim
October 30, 2008, 10:57 AM
How bad would it have looked if Hitsugaya kiled Yammi with one hit of his shikai and he's an Espada? It wouldn't be good for the story's development. If the fight progressed than Hitsugaya would have emerged victorious.

1. Assumption that is not even based on facts. Hitsugaya himself said that he in shikai couldn't do anything against Yammi. And that was unreleased Yammi.

yellowman1
October 30, 2008, 11:18 AM
yes hit. cant even hurt the 10th how can he hurt ANYONE lower then that? he cant thats how

shadowfox1
October 30, 2008, 11:40 AM
joshua why are you always taking it out of context where not talking about story deveploment where talking if he can when which he cant his shikai couldnt even do nothing to the 10th espada unreleased it should have hurt him at least!

Troy why do you take others peoples comments so seriously. This is a forum where people are supposed to discuss and express themselves. So what if josh brings up the story. He is trying to make a point. Just like I am trying to make one: the fight between yammi and hit. was a fluke. If he can take on one of the top 3 Espada then know that he has improved in power.Remember that they were training all the way up until the fight now.

~Joshua~
October 30, 2008, 12:17 PM
Thank you romario. You are one of the only people that believe people could improve in skill.

Aikidoka
October 30, 2008, 06:53 PM
I still believe Halibel would win, but I'm going to throw this out there in defense of Hitsugaya...a lot of fights in Bleach don't depend on just power. There's also a lot of factors: intelligence, for example, or who you're matched up with. Or even luck. Mayuri defeated Szayel pretty easily even though he probably wasn't as strong, simply because he was the right person to counter Szayel's abilities. All of his attempts to attack were smacked down.

Hitsugaya couldn't hurt Yammi...but Halibel might not have as strong a hierro as Hitsugaya. Just saying.

Shaunlim
October 30, 2008, 11:53 PM
Troy why do you take others peoples comments so seriously. This is a forum where people are supposed to discuss and express themselves. So what if josh brings up the story. He is trying to make a point. Just like I am trying to make one: the fight between yammi and hit. was a fluke. If he can take on one of the top 3 Espada then know that he has improved in power.Remember that they were training all the way up until the fight now.


Thank you romario. You are one of the only people that believe people could improve in skill.

1. No real proof that they were training all the way up until now. Even if so, the time period isn't all that long to begin with.

2. And again, until Hitsugaya shows the capability to win, it's all baseless assumption on his ability to improve in such a short period of time.

3. Knowing Kubo, he would probably let Hitsugaya win anyway considering the fact that no one really dies in this manga.

Darek Khort
October 31, 2008, 01:30 AM
Given that I strongly believe that the Captains will lose and the Vizards will take over before Aizen introduces the VLs; I believe that Halibel will win. I just cannot see Hitsugaya beating a top Three Espada.
Sure Hitsugaya has improved and is most likely going to lose all his petals in which case he would probably either;
1. Lose bankai; or
2. Release his full, overwhelming grandmother-gets-cold power (I believe in this theory)
BUT, I do not believe for even a second that Hitsugaya would ever defeat Halibel. He might freeze her once or twice and perhaps kill the fraccion when his petals disappear (which once again I believe is another limiter, for which he places on himself); but defeating Halibel? Even when I don't know what Halibel can do...I adamantely believe Hitsugaya will lose.

~Joshua~
October 31, 2008, 06:32 AM
If Ichigo can come from Ikkaku to the 6th. Then Hitsugaya can go from Gn to the 3rd perhaps?

shadowfox1
October 31, 2008, 07:32 AM
Given that I strongly believe that the Captains will lose and the Vizards will take over before Aizen introduces the VLs; I believe that Halibel will win. I just cannot see Hitsugaya beating a top Three Espada.
Sure Hitsugaya has improved and is most likely going to lose all his petals in which case he would probably either;
1. Lose bankai; or
2. Release his full, overwhelming grandmother-gets-cold power (I believe in this theory)
BUT, I do not believe for even a second that Hitsugaya would ever defeat Halibel. He might freeze her once or twice and perhaps kill the fraccion when his petals disappear (which once again I believe is another limiter, for which he places on himself); but defeating Halibel? Even when I don't know what Halibel can do...I adamantely believe Hitsugaya will lose.

Anime like Bleach, are mostly based on character matches. who can take on who basically or who is the right opponent for who . We already know that hit. had a limit on his bankai because of those petals. but so what you dont know if he masterd it or not. remeber that they were training for the Espada winter battles. So for you to just base Halibels ranking as an Espada and hit. limit on his bankai is a very far leap my freind. No one really knows the outcome of that battle. But all i can say is i think hit. can win.

yellowman1
October 31, 2008, 09:37 AM
Anime like Bleach, are mostly based on character matches. who can take on who basically or who is the right opponent for who . We already know that hit. had a limit on his bankai because of those petals. but so what you dont know if he masterd it or not. remeber that they were training for the Espada winter battles. So for you to just base Halibels ranking as an Espada and hit. limit on his bankai is a very far leap my freind. No one really knows the outcome of that battle. But all i can say is i think hit. can win.

your not accurate your self cause you as a hit. fan boy should know that on earth he does not have a limit on his bankai cause he can form ice continuiously so the petdals are gone you can see that when he was fighting luppi so for you say he has a limit and he got stronger from mastery your wrong. and basically all he is doing is working on keeping his bankai out longer his bankai is weak to me he could not even beat the 10th he couldnt beat the 1tth and just walk away he feel out the sky covered in blood he fought the ex 6th whos not even espada lv and need his prep time and got smashed into the floor and still could not get his kill and dont say it was beacuase of the yellow light cause a move like that should be instant kill but no its patheic hit. is a lower ranked captain in terms of who the best is! hes get in populaty cause he looks cool and his sword power looks cool but thats about it..... :oh

gigantor21
October 31, 2008, 10:18 AM
Okay, you guys REALLY need to tone down the rhetoric here. We made the new forum to discuss match-ups, not provide a free venue for people to snipe at each other. :/

~Joshua~
October 31, 2008, 12:49 PM
Didn't Rukia or someone once say that everyone was training for the fight in SS. Ikkaku, Yumichika, Rankgiku and Hitsugaya were all getting in tune with their zanpakuto the day that Yammi, Luppi, Grimmjow and Wonderweiss came. Could that be considered training?

kikrox1
October 31, 2008, 01:05 PM
hitsuguya could have improved but do you think he was able to jump 7 levels of espada in just a few weeks? i dont think hes that good with his training

gigantor21
October 31, 2008, 02:46 PM
^ Yeah, it's a huge jump to make. I've been hearing that argument a lot, but I don't really buy it--especially when Yamamoto made that declaration just days before Ichigo and Co. left. Hitsu couldn't improve THAT much.

Onomatopoeia
October 31, 2008, 05:26 PM
Hmm... Could we put some ground rules down for the BD? It would be a post that included all rules and information on the El Coliseo de los Duendes.

For instance:

Ground Rules:

Speculation: Only allowed if it is stated in the opening post. And even then nothing to extreme.

Bloodlust/CIS: They are both on unless stated otherwise in the opening post. Bloodlust means that the characters win question are going for the quickest kill so they'll try to kill the opponent with all they've got. CIS is BLoodlust but to a smaller extent, a perfect example is Kenpachi, with CIS off he will not purposely tank as many attacks as he can.

Before actually creating a fight: At least look and see if the previous fight has happened. It's pointless if the fight has been done to death to create another one. Just post in another one.

Rules:

Flaming: Insulting another player because of their beliefs will not be allowed in the extreme's. FOr instance belittling someone who disagree's with you/ swearing someone etc. Try not to go overboard seriously.

Example

Your an idiot, I hate fanbois like you who hate a character so much result to this bullshit because you mad he beats out your favorite character

Obviously this is just an example and I only wrote it up in a few seconds. But if I was asked I could make this pretty advanced.

yellowman1
October 31, 2008, 07:11 PM
Hmm... Could we put some ground rules down for the BD? It would be a post that included all rules and information on the El Coliseo de los Duendes.

For instance:

Ground Rules:

Speculation: Only allowed if it is stated in the opening post. And even then nothing to extreme.

Bloodlust/CIS: They are both on unless stated otherwise in the opening post. Bloodlust means that the characters win question are going for the quickest kill so they'll try to kill the opponent with all they've got. CIS is BLoodlust but to a smaller extent, a perfect example is Kenpachi, with CIS off he will not purposely tank as many attacks as he can.

Before actually creating a fight: At least look and see if the previous fight has happened. It's pointless if the fight has been done to death to create another one. Just post in another one.

Rules:

Flaming: Insulting another player because of their beliefs will not be allowed in the extreme's. FOr instance belittling someone who disagree's with you/ swearing someone etc. Try not to go overboard seriously.

Example


Obviously this is just an example and I only wrote it up in a few seconds. But if I was asked I could make this pretty advanced.

it should just be keep it clean simple

Tsukisama
November 01, 2008, 12:42 PM
Hmm... Could we put some ground rules down for the BD? It would be a post that included all rules and information on the El Coliseo de los Duendes.

For instance:

Ground Rules:

Speculation: Only allowed if it is stated in the opening post. And even then nothing to extreme.

Bloodlust/CIS: They are both on unless stated otherwise in the opening post. Bloodlust means that the characters win question are going for the quickest kill so they'll try to kill the opponent with all they've got. CIS is BLoodlust but to a smaller extent, a perfect example is Kenpachi, with CIS off he will not purposely tank as many attacks as he can.

Before actually creating a fight: At least look and see if the previous fight has happened. It's pointless if the fight has been done to death to create another one. Just post in another one.

Rules:

Flaming: Insulting another player because of their beliefs will not be allowed in the extreme's. FOr instance belittling someone who disagree's with you/ swearing someone etc. Try not to go overboard seriously.

Example


Obviously this is just an example and I only wrote it up in a few seconds. But if I was asked I could make this pretty advanced.

I am quite sorry for the rules thread not having been created yet. We (the moderators) have been working on defining the rules and finalizing the name of the section. After we had finished that, the rules thread was going to be created. We are almost done; so expect a rules thread for this place by later on today. :sweatdrop

The rules thread (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1094848#post1094848) is now posted.

kikrox1
November 02, 2008, 06:10 PM
If Ichigo can come from Ikkaku to the 6th. Then Hitsugaya can go from Gn to the 3rd perhaps?

what are you talking about that fight with ikkaku was a long time ago and Gin(i think thats what you meant) was toying with Hitsu and he almost got hinamori killed during that fight

~Joshua~
November 03, 2008, 10:34 AM
If they were fighting alone with no interruptions do you believe that the fight would have ended so easily like that?

kikrox1
November 03, 2008, 11:44 AM
if gin was fighting seriously i think he would have won because he is another person who hasnt shown bankai and their full power of shikai

yellowman1
November 03, 2008, 11:52 AM
if gin was fighting seriously i think he would have won because he is another person who hasnt shown bankai and their full power of shikai


When Ichigo and his team first came into SS and Jidanbou let them in the gate who was the captain that pushed them out with full shikai? You could tell it was shikai since he said the call and said his zanpakuto's name as well. I think we have seen his full shikai or maybe your just not that advanced in the manga. Go find a website where they show manga and just spend the day reading it because you need to. this (www.onemanga.com) one should help.....:darn

kikrox1
November 03, 2008, 11:56 AM
When Ichigo and his team first came into SS and Jidanbou let them in the gate who was the captain that pushed them out with full shikai? You could tell it was shikai since he said the call and said his zanpakuto's name as well. I think we have seen his full shikai or maybe your just not that advanced in the manga. Go find a website where they show manga and just spend the day reading it because you need to. this (www.onemanga.com) one should help.....:darn

i said fight with his full power of shikai all we have seen was him extend his sword

~Joshua~
November 03, 2008, 08:47 PM
i said fight with his full power of shikai all we have seen was him extend his sword

Extension of his sword IS his shikai....

kikrox1
November 04, 2008, 12:39 AM
Extension of his sword IS his shikai....

i know his shikai involves extending his sword but what i am saying is the following

so his shikai can only do one thing? can u be sure of that? have u ever seen gin fight exstensively?:notrust no u havent because they have not shown him fight exstensively or even seriously for that matter

~Joshua~
November 04, 2008, 08:12 AM
i know his shikai involves extending his sword but what i am saying is the following

so his shikai can only do one thing? can u be sure of that? have u ever seen gin fight exstensively?:notrust no u havent because they have not shown him fight exstensively or even seriously for that matter

He looked serious to me by blasting Ichigo and Jidanbou out of the gate. He couldn't fail that mission because it was Aizen's will that they should use Kuukaku's cannon.

Nestorsiaaa
November 04, 2008, 10:31 AM
I chose hitsugaya because of only 1 reason....cause im a fan^^ Seriously:notrust,hitsugaya has probably no chances of beating halibel because his bankai couldnt even withstood an all-out-attack from a no.6 so what are the chances of him winning??? The highest probability is that kubo would give him YET another huge powerup*because he is so famous n girls drool all over him...etc etc.....* lol prepares to dodge hitsu-fan's attack^^

gigantor21
November 04, 2008, 12:23 PM
^ Well, I'm glad you're being honest at least. :p

There are very few fans of any character willing to admit when their favorite could lose. Unless it was against Aizen or something.

kikrox1
November 04, 2008, 01:03 PM
He looked serious to me by blasting Ichigo and Jidanbou out of the gate. He couldn't fail that mission because it was Aizen's will that they should use Kuukaku's cannon.

he was serious against ichigo when he didnt even know his full power of shikai yet? :notrust why would he be? the only thing he did was cut jidanbos arms(who ichigo alredy kicked the crap out of) and then he pushed ichigo back when the door was closing

yellowman1
November 04, 2008, 01:24 PM
he was serious against ichigo when he didnt even know his full power of shikai yet? :notrust why would he be? the only thing he did was cut jidanbos arms(who ichigo alredy kicked the crap out of) and then he pushed ichigo back when the door was closing

your being ignorant and just don't wanna admit that gin has showed the full power of his shikai and further more this thread is about halibel or hit. not gin and hit. seriously hit. is just popular he is a low lv captain he is on par with the fox captain he beat the 11th arrcar. and expoled in blood and that was the strongest person he beat and do do so he need his limit limit he was getting the tar beat out him with out it and was like finally when it got lifted and you expect him all of a sudden to beat on of the top 3 espada? i think not unless like a fan said b4 kubo gives him a big boost cause hes popular lmao or someone will help him(like he need for the ex 6 luppi) he need that prep time to stop him not even defeat and don't give me that the yellow light saved him he should've been finish the job hes a captain and hes fighting some one not fit to be and espada with him from 3 other ppl:notrust or finish the battle for him :darn

kikrox1
November 04, 2008, 05:53 PM
your being ignorant and just don't wanna admit that gin has showed the full power of his shikai and further more this thread is about halibel or hit. not gin and hit. seriously hit. is just popular he is a low lv captain he is on par with the fox captain he beat the 11th arrcar. and expoled in blood and that was the strongest person he beat and do do so he need his limit limit he was getting the tar beat out him with out it and was like finally when it got lifted and you expect him all of a sudden to beat on of the top 3 espada? i think not unless like a fan said b4 kubo gives him a big boost cause hes popular lmao or someone will help him(like he need for the ex 6 luppi) he need that prep time to stop him not even defeat and don't give me that the yellow light saved him he should've been finish the job hes a captain and hes fighting some one not fit to be and espada with him from 3 other ppl:notrust or finish the battle for him :darn


i didnt bring up gin and his full shikai power isnt just his shiaki ability its how he uses it and if u think it is just his sword changing in length which i highly doubt that it is then he still hasnt shown bankai and he still hasnt fought seriously

yellowman1
November 04, 2008, 06:22 PM
i didnt bring up gin and his full shikai power isnt just his shiaki ability its how he uses it and if u think it is just his sword changing in length which i highly doubt that it is then he still hasnt shown bankai and he still hasnt fought seriously

your still going on about it :notrust ugh..... sigh i guess its because you cant support your opinion that hit. can beat halilbel :amuse

Flight-47
November 04, 2008, 07:11 PM
Toushirou. Who couldn't even kill Luppi, has no chance against an Espada of the 3rd or 2nd or 1st rank.
He couldn't have improved THAT much in only a few days. He had to use full power just to defeat a Fraccion, and only 2 months passed since then. Ichigo got his ass handed to him against Ulquiorra, and Halibel's even stronger than he is.

The battle against Luppi and the others, was a few days AT MOST if not a few hours before the invasion of Earth. Don't forget, Ichigo and the co went to Hueco Mundo the day right after that Arrancar invasion when Orihime was kidnapped. And they've been constantly in battle during that time, which means only a few hours or so would have passed. A day at most... which means, Toushirou had no time to train.


In other words... He's screwed. ^_^

yellowman1
November 04, 2008, 07:15 PM
hit. couldnt do ANY damage against the 10th who might i add was not in release form and hit. was half his full power he was in shikai >.> and his bankai is not that much better =/ so like you said hes screwed ^.^

Flight-47
November 04, 2008, 07:26 PM
Yeah, I forgot that he shot his Shikai dragon at Yami...

That attack took some work for even Gin to stop with his sword, yet Yami ate it like it was nothing.

Yami is definitely powerful, I have a feeling his release will be a troublesome ability which will make him hard to defeat. He may very well somehow at this moment be getting stronger himself...

Back when Ulquiorra and Yami arrived on Earth, Ulquiorra commented that, at his CURRENT level Yami wouldn't be able to defeat Urahara and Yoruichi, which may foreshadow him becoming more powerful.


But, Yami's another story...


Yup, Toushirou is gonna get his ass beat. We've seen enough of him anyways. Even Ikkaku lost, since he's already had a major fight in the past. Kubo seems to be trying to concentrate more on the characters who we haven't seen in battle much.
If I had to bet my money on it, I'd say either Soifon or Ukitake will take Toushirou's place once he's taken out of the picture. (I doubt he'll be killed, but defeat most likely).

Also, we've still got Komamura, and Genryuusai who're free to battle anytime, so Aizen's army is kind of out numbered at the moment, which is what makes me believe these top 3 Espada are soon about to start taking out some of the weaker Captains.

Raizen
November 04, 2008, 08:48 PM
I am a huge fan of hitsu ever since he first appeared in SS and told GIn he will kill him if he harmed hinamori. I thought that was so cool. However, I don't see him beating halibel, not with what he has shown us so far. But people are seriously underestimating him. Yammi brushed off the ice b/c his skin was tough, tough enough to injure even youruichi's hands.

What I find interesting is that hitsu has seen the powers of the espadas: 6 and 10. So he should know that espadas 1-3 will be on a much higher level, yet he is confident he can take one on by himself. To me it shows he has mastered his bankai and is ready to go all out. Hopefully, I am right :p

yellowman1
November 05, 2008, 07:14 AM
I am a huge fan of hitsu ever since he first appeared in SS and told GIn he will kill him if he harmed hinamori. I thought that was so cool. However, I don't see him beating halibel, not with what he has shown us so far. But people are seriously underestimating him. Yammi brushed off the ice b/c his skin was tough, tough enough to injure even youruichi's hands.

What I find interesting is that hitsu has seen the powers of the espadas: 6 and 10. So he should know that espadas 1-3 will be on a much higher level, yet he is confident he can take one on by himself. To me it shows he has mastered his bankai and is ready to go all out. Hopefully, I am right :p

well in the real world were he fought yammi and luppi his bankai is basically mastered. his bankia mastery would be him losing his pedtals so his bankai doesn't dissapear and in the real world his bankai wont disspear cause the amount of water in the air and he was able to even hurt luppi he so called has steel skin but lots of other captains have already defeated espada's of a higher lv meaning they are stronger (bya.,the science captain, ken.) and he couldn't hurt yammi the lowest espada or kill luppi someone not even fit to be an espada with the help of 3 other ppl and he was almost killed (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/232/12/)....

~Joshua~
November 05, 2008, 07:23 AM
Almost isn't good enough. Your still using that Yammi and Luppi analogy i see...

yellowman1
November 05, 2008, 07:34 AM
yes i am those are the strongest ppl he has fought and one person he couldn't even hurt him and the other he couldn't defeat him even with his strongest attack

Flight-47
November 05, 2008, 07:40 AM
Why not use Yami and Luppi as examples?

We've seen Ichigo, as strong as he is, barely defeat the 6th Espada, but also get taken out by the 4th Espada in a matter of seconds, without the guy even taking his sword out.

Obviously the top 3 are far more powerful than the others.
No ones underestimating Hitsugaya, we know fair well how strong he is based off all his fights. But, people are underestimating the power of the Espada.

Don't forget even a Captain had trouble defeating the 7th Espada. Mayuri used everything he had just to defeat the 8th. And Kenpachi even had to pull out Kendou to defeat the 5th.

~Joshua~
November 05, 2008, 11:30 AM
Mayuri defeated Szayel with ease, Kenpachi was smiling when Nnoitra fell to the floor. Hitsugaya was calm when he captured Luppi in his ice prison. Ichigo caught Grimmjow's hand the final time he struck at Ichigo. Don't forget the times that they "had it easy."

kikrox1
November 05, 2008, 11:46 AM
your still going on about it :notrust ugh..... sigh i guess its because you cant support your opinion that hit. can beat halilbel :amuse

if you want me to drop then then fine its dropped but i have shown evidence that hitsu cant beat halibel

~Joshua~
November 05, 2008, 12:59 PM
if you want me to drop then then fine its dropped but i have shown evidence that hitsu cant beat halibel

Evidence such as?

Raizen
November 05, 2008, 02:40 PM
This is a discussion thread, everyone has their own opinion. Obviously hitsu has learned something new if he is ready to take on a top espada. As for the luppi fight, he really did beat luppi. He played on luppi's weakness and took advantage of it. I wasn't 4 against 1, just hitsu vs luppi

yellowman1
November 05, 2008, 08:31 PM
if you want me to drop then then fine its dropped but i have shown evidence that hitsu cant beat halibel

lmao i know and believe that hit. can not beat halibel to :amuse

BlackHair
November 05, 2008, 08:41 PM
There is a reason why Aizen said the Espada are enough for SS. Also the Vaizards are coming. If Halibal as the 3rd Espada should now fall, then I don't see a slightest chance for HM. The Battle will be evenly matched even in Kubos world. Seriously Hitsu will get raped.

Eddy01741
November 05, 2008, 09:22 PM
Well, at the very least we'll get to see the outcome of this battle for ourselves, unlike all the other theoretical battles. Anyways, I'm still saying, Halibel is one of the top 3 espada, she should be stronger than Ulquiora, Ichigo's strongest attack couldn't even scratch ulquiora (he didn't even need his sword), Halibel has got to be hella strong.

~Joshua~
November 06, 2008, 07:15 AM
I agree, she should be strong. Top 3 is no joke and i'm not going to lie. Hitsugaya is going to have on hell of a fight against her. He may lose i'm ust hoping that he puts up a decent fight for it. I'm stil hoping he wins with no interruption from anyone else.

Raizen
November 06, 2008, 11:01 PM
I think hitsu has to show his merit. We have yet to see him go all out against someone with no interruptions. We need to see what happen when his petals all fall. Hopefully after this fight, hitsu will not be so underestimated by the readers.

BlackHair
November 06, 2008, 11:48 PM
I believe he won't be able to handle her in his bankai 100% while she is not even released. What's the big deal of Hitsu anyway? He stll hasn't shown any impressive feats so far.

Forever_Melody
November 07, 2008, 06:40 AM
Well I wouldn't say his feats aren't impressive, it's just that Kubo likes to have Hitsu thrown around a lot probably because of his childish appearance(far more mainstream to have a kid beaten up than an adult I guess lol :p).

Hitsugaya has been the Bleach punching bag for quite some time, being a punching bag to demonstrate Aizen's power, the Arrancars' and so forth. That isn't to say he isn't strong. He's obviously younger and less experienced than his other captain elders so he has room to grow. A Zanpakuto's powers are not set in stone as shown by the many forms & attacks Byakuya has developed with his Bankai.

~Joshua~
November 07, 2008, 07:20 AM
Hitsugaya has gotten thrown around in this fight and I think that this is the one fight Hitsugaya might be able to really show something.

yellowman1
November 07, 2008, 07:30 AM
he has nothing to show we know he doesn't have a mask and we have seen his bankai and his best move with needs perp time hes not that good not at all

Raizen
November 07, 2008, 12:55 PM
Well I wouldn't say his feats aren't impressive, it's just that Kubo likes to have Hitsu thrown around a lot probably because of his childish appearance(far more mainstream to have a kid beaten up than an adult I guess lol :p).

Hitsugaya has been the Bleach punching bag for quite some time, being a punching bag to demonstrate Aizen's power, the Arrancars' and so forth. That isn't to say he isn't strong. He's obviously younger and less experienced than his other captain elders so he has room to grow. A Zanpakuto's powers are not set in stone as shown by the many forms & attacks Byakuya has developed with his Bankai.
Its just that he never had a fight where he went 100% with no restriction and no interference. We will see that when he fights halibel

~Joshua~
November 07, 2008, 01:15 PM
Its just that he never had a fight where he went 100% with no restriction and no interference. We will see that when he fights halibel

I've never actually realized that...I guess his fight with Halibel will allow us to see his complete strength.

kikrox1
November 07, 2008, 04:18 PM
Evidence such as?

evidence such as he cant hurt the tenth espada and he had all the time in the world to restore his power so he can use his strongest attack on luppi and it still didnt kill him

Ps. i just want to say the even rukia killed the 9TH ESPADA and hitsu couldnt harm the tenth i think that says somthing about his "abilities" xDD jk :blink it doesnt make sense to me really:notrust unless rukia actually has more power then hitsu

BlackHair
November 07, 2008, 04:50 PM
Kubos power ranking makes no sense in general..

Anyway about Hitsu, while fighting Luppi he had the environmental advantage as well as enough time due to skindhead, fugly and big titiy. Since they were fighting Luppi, while Hitsu was preparing his attack. Still he wasn't able to kill him. Lucci < Grimmjaw; he must be somewhere between 7 and 6. Halibal on the other hand is Nr.3..

Face the facts: 1. Vaizards are on the way. I don't think they will take side with Aizen. 2. Urhara and Yoruchi must be as well. 3.The battle has to be even to make it thrilling (normal story logic). 4. Aizen said the 3 Espada are enough for G13.

Under this circumstances I can see only a one sided rape. If they want to take Haliball out, there is at least 2 guys needed.

Eddy01741
November 07, 2008, 05:17 PM
I would say that Yammi>Luppi actually. think about it, Aizen doesn't care about how keeping espadas as espadas just becaue they have served as espadas for a long time, that's why there is the privaron espadas. If Luppi was really more powerful than espadas 7-10, then:
1. Yammi would be a privaron espada and espadas 7-9 would be moved back a rank (this means before grimmjow got his arm cut off by tousen, since Luppi existed before then).
2. Aizen would interfere with Grimmjow killing Luppi if he really was that powerful.

Basically, Luppi served as a distraction to fight the shinigamis while Ulquiora abducted Orihime secretly.

Anyways, Raizen, why do you say that you hope people won't underestimate HItsu after this fight anymore. I personallly never underestimated hitsu, he just has an awful showing based on what he has shown to us. He got played by Gin, raped by aizen (that said, most anybody would, but still), and couldn't take on a fraccion with bankai with limiter. Think about it, limiter=20% of your normal power, Bankai is 5-10 times more powerful than with shikai. EIther way, he should have beat the fraccion with the limit with bankai on. ALso, he was struggling to survive with a limit and bankai, while the others Matsumoto was holding up just fine with a shikai and limit.

yellowman1
November 07, 2008, 06:49 PM
I would say that Yammi>Luppi actually. think about it, Aizen doesn't care about how keeping espadas as espadas just becaue they have served as espadas for a long time, that's why there is the privaron espadas. If Luppi was really more powerful than espadas 7-10, then:
1. Yammi would be a privaron espada and espadas 7-9 would be moved back a rank (this means before grimmjow got his arm cut off by tousen, since Luppi existed before then).
2. Aizen would interfere with Grimmjow killing Luppi if he really was that powerful.

Basically, Luppi served as a distraction to fight the shinigamis while Ulquiora abducted Orihime secretly.

Anyways, Raizen, why do you say that you hope people won't underestimate HItsu after this fight anymore. I personallly never underestimated hitsu, he just has an awful showing based on what he has shown to us. He got played by Gin, raped by aizen (that said, most anybody would, but still), and couldn't take on a fraccion with bankai with limiter. Think about it, limiter=20% of your normal power, Bankai is 5-10 times more powerful than with shikai. EIther way, he should have beat the fraccion with the limit with bankai on. ALso, he was struggling to survive with a limit and bankai, while the others Matsumoto was holding up just fine with a shikai and limit.

to me luppi isn't even fit to be an espada he almost got beat by hit. and then got manhandled by grimm. with a 2 hit combo yammi is stronger then luppi I'm not staying grimm. wouldn't do him the same way im sure of that but to get almost beat by hit. in hes released state while yammi took hit. shikai like it was nothing broke out shook it off then replied "nice chill" thats said but yea i agree yammi is stronger then luppi and as for this thread hit. can't win hes just not strong enough and if he does hes gonna get help :mad

kikrox1
November 07, 2008, 06:57 PM
off topic i know but i think the vizard are here already cause someone did save rangiku

Eddy01741
November 07, 2008, 07:22 PM
Um, I'm pretty sure it is talking about Gin, that's the only person I can see Matsumoto being surprised of, since she knew gin from a very long time ago, who knows though, it might be somebody like hinamori too. However, I don't know if Matsumoto even knows (on a personal level) any of the vizards.

Raizen
November 07, 2008, 08:17 PM
I would say that Yammi>Luppi actually. think about it, Aizen doesn't care about how keeping espadas as espadas just becaue they have served as espadas for a long time, that's why there is the privaron espadas. If Luppi was really more powerful than espadas 7-10, then:
1. Yammi would be a privaron espada and espadas 7-9 would be moved back a rank (this means before grimmjow got his arm cut off by tousen, since Luppi existed before then).
2. Aizen would interfere with Grimmjow killing Luppi if he really was that powerful.

Basically, Luppi served as a distraction to fight the shinigamis while Ulquiora abducted Orihime secretly.

Anyways, Raizen, why do you say that you hope people won't underestimate HItsu after this fight anymore. I personallly never underestimated hitsu, he just has an awful showing based on what he has shown to us. He got played by Gin, raped by aizen (that said, most anybody would, but still), and couldn't take on a fraccion with bankai with limiter. Think about it, limiter=20% of your normal power, Bankai is 5-10 times more powerful than with shikai. EIther way, he should have beat the fraccion with the limit with bankai on. ALso, he was struggling to survive with a limit and bankai, while the others Matsumoto was holding up just fine with a shikai and limit.
I said most people underestimate hitsugaya. he has yet to whow what he is totally capable of in an uninterrupted environment.
As for his fight with gin, to me hitsu had the upper hand. Both used shikai and in the end hitsu caught him while gin aimed for momo
And for the fraccion, it is similar to soifon. Since it was the first time they fought against an arrancar, they have no idea what is capable so he may have gotten caught off guard. Besides the author is just introducing the new enemies so he had to make them look badass

And about luppi, he is definitely stronger than yammi. Each espada has a specialty. Just b/c one is stronger than another does not mean they would take the place. Luppi would destroy yammi

Eddy01741
November 07, 2008, 10:43 PM
Okay, all of your arguments except for the last are understandable, I will agree to disagree.

Anyways, for your last argument, why wouldn't a stronger arrancar replace a weaker one? That's why there is a den full of privaron espadas, that's where espadas who are no longer the top 10 arrancars in HM go. Now, you may say that Grimmjow is a good overall fighter and so is Yammi, while people like noitora and syazel have specialties, but still, I think Aizen would still take the stronger arrancar over the specialized ones. If he only wanted one of each "type" of fighter, then the ranks of the espada would be pretty weak.

Raizen
November 08, 2008, 12:19 AM
Okay, all of your arguments except for the last are understandable, I will agree to disagree.

Anyways, for your last argument, why wouldn't a stronger arrancar replace a weaker one? That's why there is a den full of privaron espadas, that's where espadas who are no longer the top 10 arrancars in HM go. Now, you may say that Grimmjow is a good overall fighter and so is Yammi, while people like noitora and syazel have specialties, but still, I think Aizen would still take the stronger arrancar over the specialized ones. If he only wanted one of each "type" of fighter, then the ranks of the espada would be pretty weak.
Well to me it seems Luppi was commanding yammi, meaning he is of higher rank. Why aizen doesn't have luppi take over spots from 7-10, I don't know but it seem although Luppi may be stronger then them, there are specific skills that are more valuable to aizen then just strength.
Like 7 is the fastest, 8 is smartest, 9 can keep on growing, and 10 may have to do with aizen's ultimate plan (his soul sucking powers)

kikrox1
November 08, 2008, 05:05 PM
Okay, all of your arguments except for the last are understandable, I will agree to disagree.

Anyways, for your last argument, why wouldn't a stronger arrancar replace a weaker one? That's why there is a den full of privaron espadas, that's where espadas who are no longer the top 10 arrancars in HM go. Now, you may say that Grimmjow is a good overall fighter and so is Yammi, while people like noitora and syazel have specialties, but still, I think Aizen would still take the stronger arrancar over the specialized ones. If he only wanted one of each "type" of fighter, then the ranks of the espada would be pretty weak.

are u saying aizen prefers strength over the skilled because even with only 1 arm grimmjow is stronger than luppi because he killed him so easily with just 1 arm

Forever_Melody
November 08, 2008, 10:21 PM
he has nothing to show we know he doesn't have a mask and we have seen his bankai and his best move with needs perp time hes not that good not at all

We thought Byakuya and Kenpachi had nothing else to show since they went all out against Ichigo and boom! They show new stuff when fighting the Espada(Byakuya shows more Kido & a new Bankai form and Kenpachi show Kendo)! It isn't out of the question then that Hitsugaya has more to offer as well.

As for the other thing, Hitsugaya isn't weak, he's young and as Raizen said, he's had other implications in some of his fights.

I also think there would be no point in Luppi replacing Grimmjow if he wasn't at the very least on par(I think he was weaker than Gj personally lol). The Espada system works on strength in general(as Nnoitora stated) so if Luppi entered at no.6, then he was roughly somewhere within that range in terms of power. Therefore, Hitsugaya beating Luppi to me shows that he could've beaten Yammi probably as well if he got the chance to.

kikrox1
November 08, 2008, 11:11 PM
srry but if luppi was on par with grimmjow then how did grimmjow kill him in one hit with one arm. and as yellowman said hitsu had time to power up for his best move and he still didnt kill luppi he might have something new cause hes fightin one of the top 3 espada but idk what it could be

Eddy01741
November 08, 2008, 11:53 PM
We thought Byakuya and Kenpachi had nothing else to show since they went all out against Ichigo and boom! They show new stuff when fighting the Espada(Byakuya shows more Kido & a new Bankai form and Kenpachi show Kendo)! It isn't out of the question then that Hitsugaya has more to offer as well.

As for the other thing, Hitsugaya isn't weak, he's young and as Raizen said, he's had other implications in some of his fights.

I also think there would be no point in Luppi replacing Grimmjow if he wasn't at the very least on par(I think he was weaker than Gj personally lol). The Espada system works on strength in general(as Nnoitora stated) so if Luppi entered at no.6, then he was roughly somewhere within that range in terms of power. Therefore, Hitsugaya beating Luppi to me shows that he could've beaten Yammi probably as well if he got the chance to.
If it was strength in general, Luppi would ahve already entered the ranks of the espada before grimmjow got injured. Just face it, the two possibilities are:
1. Luppi was just a placeholder for GJ since Aizen's plan was to get orihime anyways. It would be troublesome to move the rankings of espadas 6-10 around to accomodate for GJ's injury, so Aizen just issued him as makeshift 6th espada (this is my opinion of what happened).

2. Aizen has each esapda in there for a specific reason, for example, Noitora is all about pure physical attacking power, while GJ is a more overall fighter (strength and speed), so maybe Luppi was next in line of GJ's type.

Forever_Melody
November 09, 2008, 12:10 AM
Well yes, that is somewhat odd, but I'm not exactly sure of the exact mechanics of the Espada. I doubt Aizen takes the time to rebrand and change everyone's level. I mean, when the lower Espada were getting killed, Aizen didn't really bother to up the other ones after(at least we are unaware if Yammi is now 6 thanks to Nnoitora's death since Gj is still alive lol :p).

While I agree that Luppi isn't as strong as Gj, note that he was beaten when Gj got to him. And btw, Gj had both arms again when he killed him. I'm not saying he is as strong as Gj, but I wouldn't say that weak either. I also really fail to see any reason to demote Grimmjow from the Espada even now >.>

The fact that Hitsu didn't kill him is simply attributed to the fact that the one move he used didn't prove fatal, he could've continued and ended up killing Luppi easily in the continued context.

I wouldn't discredit Hitsugaya. He is the punching bag of the Bleach world as I've said lol so he might seem weaker than he actually is.
- In his short battle with Gin, he was keeping up and had the upper hand towards the end.
- Obviously his loss to Aizen is understandable, but it lets a disappointment since it was the first time we saw his Bankai and it got whooped, which probably didn't help its reputation lol.
- His difficulty with Shawlong is attributed to a combination the initial placement of the seal onto his powers and a need for Kubo to showcase the arrancars' strength as the new enemies.
- His battle with Yammi wasn't much of a battle anyways.
- His battle with Luppi he won, so idk what's so bad about that.

All in all, Hitsugaya probably has amongst the worst track records of the series, hence me saying he is the "punching bag" of the manga.

Nonetheless, I would not discredit him for so. He is very powerful in his own right, being the youngest captain to receive position. That being said, he is still young and has lots of room to grow in many aspects. People seem to forget his age/inexperience and the level where he stands for that age is excellent if not short of prodigal.

Edit: was it confirmed Halibel is #3? I hear people calling her that yet I don't remember reading it anywhere in the manga >.>

Raizen
November 09, 2008, 01:07 AM
are u saying aizen prefers strength over the skilled because even with only 1 arm grimmjow is stronger than luppi because he killed him so easily with just 1 arm
Luppi got killed b/c he was seriously injured from the fight w/ hitsu, but he still displayed his badass face b/c he is cocky. Grimjow caught him by surprise since he didn't think grim would do that.

I am not denying the grim is stronger than luppi, but saying luppi is weaker then yammi is absurd. The situation may have made luppi a replacement. I have already explained my reasoning. Espada 7-10 each had a skill that sets them from the rest. Luppi was just another brute strength espada and aizen already has plenty of those. 7 was fast, 8 was smart, and 9 could keep on growing. Yammi to me is the final part to aizen's plan, that is why he has not been killed off

kikrox1
November 09, 2008, 09:26 AM
Well yes, that is somewhat odd, but I'm not exactly sure of the exact mechanics of the Espada. I doubt Aizen takes the time to rebrand and change everyone's level. I mean, when the lower Espada were getting killed, Aizen didn't really bother to up the other ones after(at least we are unaware if Yammi is now 6 thanks to Nnoitora's death since Gj is still alive lol :p).

While I agree that Luppi isn't as strong as Gj, note that he was beaten when Gj got to him. And btw, Gj had both arms again when he killed him. I'm not saying he is as strong as Gj, but I wouldn't say that weak either. I also really fail to see any reason to demote Grimmjow from the Espada even now >.>

The fact that Hitsu didn't kill him is simply attributed to the fact that the one move he used didn't prove fatal, he could've continued and ended up killing Luppi easily in the continued context.

I wouldn't discredit Hitsugaya. He is the punching bag of the Bleach world as I've said lol so he might seem weaker than he actually is.
- In his short battle with Gin, he was keeping up and had the upper hand towards the end.
- Obviously his loss to Aizen is understandable, but it lets a disappointment since it was the first time we saw his Bankai and it got whooped, which probably didn't help its reputation lol.
- His difficulty with Shawlong is attributed to a combination the initial placement of the seal onto his powers and a need for Kubo to showcase the arrancars' strength as the new enemies.
- His battle with Yammi wasn't much of a battle anyways.
- His battle with Luppi he won, so idk what's so bad about that.

All in all, Hitsugaya probably has amongst the worst track records of the series, hence me saying he is the "punching bag" of the manga.

Nonetheless, I would not discredit him for so. He is very powerful in his own right, being the youngest captain to receive position. That being said, he is still young and has lots of room to grow in many aspects. People seem to forget his age/inexperience and the level where he stands for that age is excellent if not short of prodigal.

Edit: was it confirmed Halibel is #3? I hear people calling her that yet I don't remember reading it anywhere in the manga >.>



none of the top 3 espada have been confirmed of which number they are and i think Luppi was a espada before Grimmjow and when aizen made stronger ones he got kicked out and Grimmjow replaced him like Nel because we know she was number 3 and now she has been replaced and Nnoitora said that the espada are stronger and its clear Grimmjow is stonger than Luppi so Aizen could have just sent luppi back in his place just to keep the order :oh does this make sense to anyone

Forever_Melody
November 09, 2008, 11:22 AM
Well it could make sense that Gj is stronger than Luppi(your explanation is one), but it'd make NO sense whatsoever if Luppi wasn't Espada level at all(i.e. Yammi is stronger than him). Therefore, it'd be at least safe to assume Luppi is within a certain range of strength with the other Espadas around his assigned number.

That being said, we're veering a bit off-course lol :p

The thread is to discuss Hitsu vs Halibel.

As it stands, I think Hitsu stands a chance, but that if he wins, it'll VERY be difficult. I don't think Halibel will "omg I killz ju!" Hitsugaya, despite what others are saying. Yes, he is perhaps one of the lower tier captains, but he is still a captain and a resourceful one to say the least. We shall see how it fares ^^

kikrox1
November 09, 2008, 04:33 PM
.-. right halibel vs hitsu.......... i say if she is affected by hitsugayas shikai then he has a chance of winning i geuss

Danre
November 12, 2008, 08:22 PM
Halibel >>> Grimmjow > Luppi >/= Hitsugaya.

Sorry, it's canon. Halibel is much stronger than Grimmjow, who's stronger than Luppi, who beat Hitsugaya and would have killed him if he hadn't left him for dead. In a one on one scenario such as Halibel versus Hitsugaya, that would not be a factor.

Hitsugaya is one of the weaker captains. He's gotten a raw deal, sure, but he's still not that strong by captain standards. I don't even think he could beat Nnoitra, honestly. Probably not even Grimmjow.

If Hitsugaya struggled to the point of near-death against Luppi, Halibel will destroy him. Of course, we're discussing Bleach power levels, so of course Hitsu will probably win.

Same logic as Ulquiorra's assured loss to Ichigo here in a few chapters.

kkck
November 12, 2008, 10:18 PM
^Hitsugaya needed prep time to fight luppi though.

Forever_Melody
November 13, 2008, 08:23 AM
Kubo isn't persistent with power levels and a>b, b>c doesn't necessarily mean a>c, but since Kubo nearly works on a DBZ type system(at least for the Espada), it seems that such logic would work to an extent.

I mean, maybe by some very big plot hole Hitsugaya could be the worst matchup for Halibel(due to their powers), which I doubt lol >.>

Umm chances are he'll get aid or something I guess >.>

kikrox1
November 13, 2008, 10:07 PM
If everyone wins their match right now then there will be nothing for the vizards to do and possibly yoruichi and urahara there has already been one 2 victories and that last espada is about to get out of his chair to fight so i dont think the other captains and Rangiku will be able to complete their fights

Flight-47
November 13, 2008, 10:26 PM
Mayuri defeated Szayel with ease, Kenpachi was smiling when Nnoitra fell to the floor. Hitsugaya was calm when he captured Luppi in his ice prison. Ichigo caught Grimmjow's hand the final time he struck at Ichigo. Don't forget the times that they "had it easy."

Mayuri's sword cracked in half after the battle. He couldn't even defeat Szayel on his own, he had to use Nemu to gain the advantage. Not even his Bankai was useful enough...

Kenpachi is a monster. Of course he was smiling!! He smiles while getting chopped into pieces!

And Hitsugaya said he recovered because Luppi left him alone too much. Luppi never got a chance to strike back because Hitsugaya took all his precious time to create his, what at the moment seems to be his strongest attack, and then used it on Luppi... and failed to kill him.
Luppi... who got annihilated by Grimmjow...


Nnoitra told Ichigo, "You got the tar beat out of you before you defeated that scum"... So, Ichigo, as we've seen, was indeed losing. Until Shounen logic took place, and he broke through Grimmjow's best attack as if it was nothing, and won by stabbing him only once...

yellowman1
November 14, 2008, 10:51 AM
Mayuri's sword cracked in half after the battle. He couldn't even defeat Szayel on his own, he had to use Nemu to gain the advantage. Not even his Bankai was useful enough...

Kenpachi is a monster. Of course he was smiling!! He smiles while getting chopped into pieces!

And Hitsugaya said he recovered because Luppi left him alone too much. Luppi never got a chance to strike back because Hitsugaya took all his precious time to create his, what at the moment seems to be his strongest attack, and then used it on Luppi... and failed to kill him.
Luppi... who got annihilated by Grimmjow...


Nnoitra told Ichigo, "You got the tar beat out of you before you defeated that scum"... So, Ichigo, as we've seen, was indeed losing. Until Shounen logic took place, and he broke through Grimmjow's best attack as if it was nothing, and won by stabbing him only once...

yes and if luppi was to pull out his spikes like he did against the other 3 there would be an open spot for captain of the 10th squad right now :p

kkck
November 14, 2008, 02:31 PM
Hitsugaya seems to be holding his ground againts halibel, but I think halibel is taking it easy of old hitsugaya. I think in the end halibel will prevail.

kikrox1
November 14, 2008, 03:25 PM
._. well i was way off on who came save rangiku but w/e halibel didnt rellay look like she was trying. She still had a blank expression on her face and hasnt released

Raizen
November 14, 2008, 05:03 PM
If halibel is that much stronger than hitsu then hitsu would be dead by now. This means that hitsu is in no way weak. i mean halibel seem to be very obedient. it would be smart of her to try and finish the fight fast so she can help someone else but she is not doing that b/c she can't

From what I see hitsu is holding his own and seems the dragon is not as weak as many believe since halibel had to avoid it

Aikidoka
November 16, 2008, 03:27 AM
._. well i was way off on who came save rangiku but w/e halibel didnt rellay look like she was trying. She still had a blank expression on her face and hasnt released
Neither has Hitsu. So your argument doesn’t say much.


From what I see hitsu is holding his own and seems the dragon is not as weak as many believe since halibel had to avoid it
Wouldn’t you avoid an attack even if it probably wouldn’t hurt you? Like Nnoitra said, it’s a natural reflex to dodge. It’s better to dodge an attack you can dodge than to get hit and lose blood (even if only a little).

What I see from the latest chapter is, neither is going all out yet. You’re right Raizen, it’s smart to go all out and finish him off quickly, but it’s smarter to make sure you can defeat him first. Halibel seems to be assessing Hitsu, and vice versa. They want to try to get a feel of their opponent’s weaknesses and shortcomings, so when they do go all out, they can exploit those weaknesses and make victory easier.

Even though I voted Halibel, I’m thinking I’ll still be satisfied whoever wins. From the few fight scenes we’ve seen so far, we can already tell that Hitsu and Halibel are really alike: they fight smart. And I’m looking forward to a strategy-based fight, after so many “good guy magically beats bad guy” matches.

Aonsaithya
November 16, 2008, 04:47 AM
Mayuri's sword cracked in half after the battle. He couldn't even defeat Szayel on his own, he had to use Nemu to gain the advantage. Not even his Bankai was useful enough...

I beg to differ.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/306/08/
"I wanted it to shatter" and in some other translation "It didn't break, I broke it."

Remember how Kenpachi stabbed right through Zangetsu, then berated Ichigo for "softening up his spiritual pressure". I think this indicates that the stronger your spiritual pressure is, the stronger your blade is, right? This also means that you should be able to soften up the blade intentionally as well.
Thus, I find it rather likely that he broke it intentionally. It's not like stabbing Szayels heart is so hard.

Forever_Melody
November 16, 2008, 12:44 PM
Mayuri's sword cracked in half after the battle. He couldn't even defeat Szayel on his own, he had to use Nemu to gain the advantage. Not even his Bankai was useful enough...

But had Nemu not been present, Szayel could not have been reborn through her and he would've died when Mayuri's Bankai struck him >.> The fact is, Nemu aided both sides by her presence, but ultimately, Mayuri's tampering would've won regardless of her.

Also, I agree with Aikidoka, both Hitsu and Halibel are playing it smart, sounding each other's styles and strengths and to me, it looks like it'll be a good fight, regardless of who wins ^_^

kikrox1
November 16, 2008, 06:26 PM
Neither has Hitsu. So your argument doesn’t say much.

he was in shikai form thats why he was able to use the dragon

Onomatopoeia
November 16, 2008, 06:34 PM
he was in shikai form thats why he was able to use the dragon

Yeah but Shikai is the equivalent of not trying. Halibel and Hitsugaya didn't have a single sweat drop.

I'd also just like to point out Yammi.

kikrox1
November 17, 2008, 10:39 PM
not releasing at all is the equivalent of not trying and Hitsu was in shikai when he was fighting yammi and it didnt even faze him

Yans86
November 18, 2008, 03:23 AM
If Ichigo needs to go bankai+hollow mask full power to beat Ulquiorra(no.4)......I'd like to know how Hitsu is going to beat Halibel which is at least no.3,without Vaizards power and only with bankai...
If he win,is going to be a b******t funservice,and all the vizards super-increased-power will be meaningless...
PS
How can people still compare Gin to Hitsu is something too stupid....Hitsu was all out,Gin just played around with him and Hinamori....when he opened his eyes,wasn't cause he went serious...he was just like "GOOD BOY,U R NO MATCH FOR ME"....
[hr]
If Ichigo needs to go bankai+hollow mask full power to beat Ulquiorra(no.4)......I'd like to know how Hitsu is going to beat Halibel which is at least no.3,without Vaizards power and only with bankai...
If he win,is going to be a b******t funservice,and all the vizards super-increased-power will be meaningless...
PS
How can people still compare Gin to Hitsu is something too stupid....Hitsu was all out,Gin just played around with him and Hinamori....when he opened his eyes,wasn't cause he went serious...he was just like "GOOD BOY,U R NO MATCH FOR ME"....and he attacked Hitsu and Hinamori at the same time..if it wasn't for Matsumoto,Hinamori would be death!!

Aonsaithya
November 18, 2008, 03:27 AM
Which is cool. If his shikai feels nice and cool to the 10th epada, what will on of the top three think of it?

Ichigos shikai could not cut him either, he blocked Yammis palm with the very tip of Zangetsu, and no blood was shown.

Ichigo could cut of Yammis arm just like that in bankai, but couldn't do crap against the 6th one without his mask. And we've seen the difference between just 6th and 4th, and Halibel is at least one rank above Ulq, who can block vizard-bankai-Ichigos attacks barehanded.

If Hitsugaya wounds Halibel with his shikai, I'll be confused. Hell, he shouldn't be able to cut her even with his bankai, as that would prove that bankai-Hitsugaya is well above vizard-bankai-Ichigo. I see whitey turning into reddy.

Seems I took too long to type this out, Yans86, you beat me to it :D

Raizen
November 18, 2008, 03:22 PM
I understand the Ichigo w/ bankai and vizards can't hurt the 4th but u guys got to understand that ichigo has not master or reached the peak in any of those areas. He is still an amateur. He barely got half way in either the shinigami side or the hollow side.

Hitsu on the other hand has had years to perfect his shingami side. Ichigo is like a martial artist who is average in many different skills while Hitsu has trained for one skill and he is advance in it. In naruto terms, it is not the number of jutsus (powers) that count, it is the master of it. So someone with one jutsu can beat someone with a 1000 jutsus.

As for the yammi thing, I think people are using that too much. The fight barely started and they were interrupted (like that in every hitsu fight). The ice may not have affected him but there is sword combat, kido, flash step, etc that hitsu can use w/o going to bankai ans still beat yammi

Aonsaithya
November 18, 2008, 05:06 PM
I understand the Ichigo w/ bankai and vizards can't hurt the 4th but u guys got to understand that ichigo has not master or reached the peak in any of those areas. He is still an amateur. He barely got half way in either the shinigami side or the hollow side.

Hitsu on the other hand has had years to perfect his shingami side. Ichigo is like a martial artist who is average in many different skills while Hitsu has trained for one skill and he is advance in it. In naruto terms, it is not the number of jutsus (powers) that count, it is the master of it. So someone with one jutsu can beat someone with a 1000 jutsus.

As for the yammi thing, I think people are using that too much. The fight barely started and they were interrupted (like that in every hitsu fight). The ice may not have affected him but there is sword combat, kido, flash step, etc that hitsu can use w/o going to bankai ans still beat yammi

I feel that your judgement is clouded by you taking a liking to Hitsugaya. Implying something like "well his shikai could not hurt Yammi, but he could've still beaten him without bankai" without any proof at all makes it quite clear that you are biased. Heavily.

Oh I can't wait to see how the fight turns out. There should be no logical way for Hitsugaya to defeat Halibel. Actually, there should be no way any single captain (perhaps excluding grandpa) of the gotei 13 is capable of defeating any of the top three. They are supposed to be the amazing new kind of being, surpassing the limits of both shinigami and hollow.
I hope that the power levels are at least somehow consistent here.
If so, I can't wait to see the first captain to realize the power gap and get mercilessly butchered.

Kaiser Will
November 18, 2008, 07:54 PM
I kinda think in the same way of Aonsaithya. The top 3 Espadas must be very hard to defeat, taking the exemple that Aizen defetead Toshiro with a single strike.
Maybe Yamamoto and Ukitake/Kyorako are capable of taking an Espada down.

Forever_Melody
November 18, 2008, 08:25 PM
I'm really afraid of this hype the new bad guys are getting lol :p. Ironically, the one who DID give this hype to the readers is none other than Hitsugaya!! :D He was the one who commented on the Vasto Lorde's strength in comparison to shinigami and also gave that big scary threat about 10 VL being enough to kill SS.

But I beg to question, how credible IS this statement?? Hitsugaya himself admits that SS has near NO data on VL and only know they live deep within HM. Therefore, how is it possible to get a feel of their power? I mean, Findor said he was captain level when he removed most of his mask yet a Shikai Vice-Captain killed him. Of an arrancar cannot get a good feel of a Shinigami's power, why can we assume a Shinigami can get a good feel of a Hollow's power?

I mean, maybe Hitsugaya and the rest of SS are just assuming the worst from what they've noticed in hollows so far.

That being said, I don't think that the Vasto Lorde, or the Espada are weak, but I find it silly to assume they're away from the current pwoer levels. Remember they are, like shinigami, born from human souls. Also, Aizen is able to subdue the Espada and he was stated to have twice the reiatsu of a normal captain so he isn't really THAT far away from captain level either :blink.

Raizen
November 18, 2008, 10:09 PM
I feel that your judgement is clouded by you taking a liking to Hitsugaya. Implying something like "well his shikai could not hurt Yammi, but he could've still beaten him without bankai" without any proof at all makes it quite clear that you are biased. Heavily.

Oh I can't wait to see how the fight turns out. There should be no logical way for Hitsugaya to defeat Halibel. Actually, there should be no way any single captain (perhaps excluding grandpa) of the gotei 13 is capable of defeating any of the top three. They are supposed to be the amazing new kind of being, surpassing the limits of both shinigami and hollow.
I hope that the power levels are at least somehow consistent here.
If so, I can't wait to see the first captain to realize the power gap and get mercilessly butchered.
It is true, I do like hitsu. But what I said still holds. The fight barely got started. So what if he broke out of the ice? So what. When ichi firdt fought ken, he couldn't cut ken but later he tied with ken. The same can be said here only that instead of tying, hitsu will win. In all of hitsu's fight, he has not been able to show all he had in a fight w/ no restriction or interruptions. BBasing his power level on not being able to beat yammi when all he did was throw one attack is stupid.

Also, Melody said it correctly. A VL is like a shinigami. They both have limits and most likely their limits are equal. But an espada has the ability to reach both that limits, but does that mean they have?? NOO!! Like the ichigo example I gave. He barely grazed the power in each field so even w/ a higher limit he can't beat captains who have maxed out just their shinigami limits. I agree the espadas are strong but I doubt they have maxed out the power on both limits

Aonsaithya
November 19, 2008, 12:07 AM
I suppose we shouldn't question so many things we encounter in the manga on the basis "he could have been incorrect" such as the Hitsu-VL-thing or "he could have been lying about his ability" such as Byakuyas "these swords will not attack you all at once, for I've sworn to defeat you by my own hands". Seeing as we have absolutely no other way to get information, it would seem foolish of the author to do so. Not to mention a cheap trick to build up tension later by proving the statement wrong.

Raizen, you just said that Hitsugaya has had a lot of time to perfect his shinigami abilities. Now you are saying that Ichigo could not cut Kenpachi at first, yet he later could. That's improving, and Ichigo at that point had a lot more room to improve (not to mention the "impressive growth rate" thing) than Hitsugaya has.

Yes, I think VLs are like shinigami as well, not all of them are equally powerful. I do not think that a single espada is a VL that had reached the peak of its powers, at least not yet. Aizen talked about gathering more VLs which he has yet to do, and it's unlikely he would just win the strong ones over before the weak.

I think the infamous databook had the "power leves" as percentages of how much of their own potential each character has attained, because Unohanas "strenght" was the same as Kenpachis (meaning that she is as strong in comparison to her potential as Kenpachi is in comparison to his). If I remember correctly, none of the captains had reached their peak, with Aizen closest to it but still not quite there.

Aikidoka
November 19, 2008, 01:35 AM
Aonsaithya is correct, the databook reflects potential, so we can’t take the stats from it as true.

Raizen, your last few arguments don’t hold any ground. You’re saying that if the fights with Yammi and Luppi and all the others were allowed to progress, Hitsu would win. Who’s to say it can’t happen the other way, and if the fights continued, Hitsu would eventually lose? We have know proof and no way of knowing. Your argument, no matter how many times you use it, isn’t valid. Okay, so the fights aren’t a clear indication of Hitsu’s strength because it wasn’t finished. Which means Hitsu could either be stronger than Yammi and Luppi or weaker. You seem to be ignoring the second point, insisting that Hitsu could be stronger than he lets on, but you forget that he could also be weaker than he lets on. I’m not convinced by your argument. Please make it more believable.

Forever_Melody
November 20, 2008, 08:06 AM
I suppose we shouldn't question so many things we encounter in the manga on the basis "he could have been incorrect" such as the Hitsu-VL-thing or "he could have been lying about his ability" such as Byakuyas "these swords will not attack you all at once, for I've sworn to defeat you by my own hands". Seeing as we have absolutely no other way to get information, it would seem foolish of the author to do so. Not to mention a cheap trick to build up tension later by proving the statement wrong.

Well I agree we shouldn't be accusing everyone of lying, but we should be observing the circumstances by which people say statements. Kubo's(or any other mangakas) characters are not all-knowing, they are beings with a limited amount of knowledge and we need to take that into account when they say something. I mean, if Kubo really wanted to solidify something, he'd say it in the narration and there would be no way for us to question it since th narration IS omnipresent/omnipotent.

I am not saying Hitsugaya's statement is wrong, but I am not taking it for Gospel either. It was IMO more of a plot tool to hype the new bad guys than an actual statement of facts.

As I've said before, there are other instances where what a character has said was proven to be false or at least doubtful to be true(ex: Findor saying he was captain level then getting beaten by a Vice-Captain's Shikai) so we should always take what we read with a grain of salt.

Aonsaithya
November 20, 2008, 08:12 AM
Well I agree we shouldn't be accusing everyone of lying, but we should be observing the circumstances by which people say statements. Kubo's(or any other mangakas) characters are not all-knowing, they are beings with a limited amount of knowledge and we need to take that into account when they say something. I mean, if Kubo really wanted to solidify something, he'd say it in the narration and there would be no way for us to question it since th narration IS omnipresent/omnipotent.

I am not saying Hitsugaya's statement is wrong, but I am not taking it for Gospel either. It was IMO more of a plot tool to hype the new bad guys than an actual statement of facts.

As I've said before, there are other instances where what a character has said was proven to be false or at least doubtful to be true(ex: Findor saying he was captain level then getting beaten by a Vice-Captain's Shikai) so we should always take what we read with a grain of salt.

That's very true as well, I forgot about Findor for example. Also Ikkaku & Co claiming that Zaraki is the strongest captain, while he quite likely is not (Yamamoto etc).
But...how did we drift to this from Hitsugaya and Halibel again? :D Perhaps best to set the thread back on tracks. I'm expecting cruelty to children!

Yans86
November 20, 2008, 09:28 AM
All this Ichigo potential.....is just....not worth to be mentioned!as a Vizard,yes,he has to improve,as a shinigami....ok he has to improve,but everyone recognized that he had captain level reiatsu but at very high high level from the beginning!!!!and just to remeber....when he fought Byakuya he won only thx to his Vaizard power!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
After that,he had a lot of improvement,he trained under the Vizard to hold his mask for more time,and still he had harsh times with GJ no6,not mentioning Ulquiorra.....

Do u still want to talk about Hitsu power?exception for Ukitake/Kyouraku/Yammamoto/Yoruichi/Urahara that have more than one hundred years experience (the same for Tousen,Gin,Aizen.....I won't say Soi Fon cause he didn't experienced all this guys have...),can u really assume that Hitsu and the other captain can handle the top 3 espada???I really don't think they r strong enough...and if they still win,is going to be really fanservice.......

~Joshua~
November 20, 2008, 01:23 PM
Basically what is being said here is that Hitsugaya, Ukitake, and Shunsui don't have a chance against the Espada, and even if they do win, it's fanservice? You sound really biased against them right now. They are captains, they don't get to be captain for no reason. I do strongly blieve they all have power we haven't seen yet.

Aonsaithya
November 20, 2008, 02:35 PM
Basically what is being said here is that Hitsugaya, Ukitake, and Shunsui don't have a chance against the Espada, and even if they do win, it's fanservice? You sound really biased against them right now. They are captains, they don't get to be captain for no reason. I do strongly blieve they all have power we haven't seen yet.

I'd say Hitsugaya winning would seem so improbable that it might be considered fanservice, he is the most popular character as far as I know. They made the second movie about him etc, even though he is not really that important a character to the series in comparison to Ichigo & co. or even some of the other captains. Maybe they'll make him a vizard, too?

Shunsui and Ukitake are supposedly way stronger than he is, and we've yet to see their bankais. Still, the Espada are supposed to be incredibly strong, as they are the hybrids. The vizard are also supposed to be stronger than the current shinigami captains, no?
Also, I will be very confused if bankai-vizard-Ichigo can't cut the 4th Espada but some of the captains could cut the top three. Even if Ichigo is inexperienced with bankai and the mask, just the mask being there gives him an insane boost compared to only bankai, so much that someone with bankai-experience should not be stronger.

Raizen
November 20, 2008, 08:32 PM
Aonsaithya is correct, the databook reflects potential, so we can’t take the stats from it as true.

Raizen, your last few arguments don’t hold any ground. You’re saying that if the fights with Yammi and Luppi and all the others were allowed to progress, Hitsu would win. Who’s to say it can’t happen the other way, and if the fights continued, Hitsu would eventually lose? We have know proof and no way of knowing. Your argument, no matter how many times you use it, isn’t valid. Okay, so the fights aren’t a clear indication of Hitsu’s strength because it wasn’t finished. Which means Hitsu could either be stronger than Yammi and Luppi or weaker. You seem to be ignoring the second point, insisting that Hitsu could be stronger than he lets on, but you forget that he could also be weaker than he lets on. I’m not convinced by your argument. Please make it more believable.
UR right in the end it is all speculation whether or not hitsu could beat either luppi or yammi. But based on the statement that he can control the water particles in the air and use them to beat his opponent, saying he could beat yammi or at least tie w/ luppi is not farfetched. What I was trying to defend was the battle against yammi. Hitsu used 1 attack and it did not faze yammi and people are going wow hitsu sucks. But the fight could progress to hitsu winning the same way ichigo won. (I don't get how some don't understand this analogy :blink). In the beginning ichi could not cut ken, just like hitsu could not freeze yammi, yet in the end ichi tied w/ ken. I am just saying the first move failing does not mean hitsu failed in general.

As for the captains not being able to beat the espadas. Shunsui by himself is taking on a top espada w/o even releasing and caught him off guard. I say shunsui and uki got a good chance to beat any espada while soifon could too. If her shikai is that deadly , her bankai would be scary

Aonsaithya
November 21, 2008, 12:15 AM
Hitsu used 1 attack and it did not faze yammi and people are going wow hitsu sucks. But the fight could progress to hitsu winning the same way ichigo won. (I don't get how some don't understand this analogy :blink). In the beginning ichi could not cut ken, just like hitsu could not freeze yammi, yet in the end ichi tied w/ ken. I am just saying the first move failing does not mean hitsu failed in general.

http://img56.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/00000231/16.jpg
He himself admits that he very likely won't be beating him without bankai. Also. his not on limiter when he does that first strike.

You keep throwing these arguments that can be proven wrong in an instant...
Ichigos increase in power against Kenpachi is not going to happen with Hitsugaya. First of all, he had a huge potential back then, not knowing the name of his sword etc, Hitsugaya isn't likely to just evolve in a huge leap like that.
At first Ichigo could not even scratch an eyepatched Kenpachi, true. Just a moment later, however, he is fighting on par with him, and manages to end the battle in a draw with the now-eyepatchless Kenpachi. I'd say that insane boost in strenght is clearly coming from the Hollow inside of him, the appearance of the huge hollow mask in his reiatsu is quite evident of that.
Hitsugaya does not have a hollow inside of him as far as we know.

En Yang Ji
November 21, 2008, 02:49 AM
There is only 2 ways I can see Hitsu comparing to Halibel's unreleased form.

1. Hitsu's bankai becomes much stronger when all the petals break

2. Hitsu hasn't been able to draw out that much of Hyorinmaru's power, because it's hard to control and eventually learns to draw out it's full power.

Aonsaithya
November 21, 2008, 03:13 AM
There is only 2 ways I can see Hitsu comparing to Halibel's unreleased form.

1. Hitsu's bankai becomes much stronger when all the petals break

2. Hitsu hasn't been able to draw out that much of Hyorinmaru's power, because it's hard to control and eventually learns to draw out it's full power.

I find it extremely unlikely (the 4th blocks bankai-vizard-attacks barehanded), even Hitsus bankai should not be capable of cutting here. If bankai Hitsu > vizard-bankai-Ichigo, something is wrong with the mask.

En Yang Ji
November 21, 2008, 03:30 AM
It depends on Hitsu's and Ichigo's potential. Hitsu may have a lot more potential than we initially thought (he has a legendary dragon as his zanpakatou) and Ichigo may not have reached much of his potential. Ichigo might only have reached 30% of his potential as a shinigami and 40% of his potential with his hollow side. Ichigo definitely isn't close to his limit. He still has to get to the point where he can beat Aizen.

Assuming Aizen is stronger than all the Espada, than Ichigo is way weaker, even with the mask. Even if Ichigo is able to become as strong as Aizen is now, Aizen still hasn't used hollow powers. The only way I can see Ichigo beating Aizen, is him having a vast potential and possibly gaining, even more powerups.

While I wouldn't like it, I could accept if Hitsu was able to do a little damage to a unreleased Halibel by going all out. Aizen, Yammato, Urahara, Yoruichi, and Unohana are all captains that are possibly stronger than Bankai Ichigo with the mask.

If Kubo explains properly, I can accept it. :(

Forever_Melody
November 21, 2008, 09:16 PM
There is more to a battle than pure strength. As shown, at the current time, Ichigo's mask only serves as a stats booster, increasing his abilities, but not really granting him anything new. You can't use a>b>c logic in Bleach.

Ex: you'd say Ichigo was able to tie Kenpachi in SS, but Kenpachi defeated Nnoitora while Ichigo barely managed to defeat GJ(1 level below Nnoitora) when he got his bankai and hollow mask upgrade.

Or how about Ichigo actually besting Byakuya while Byakuya literally eased through 1 level lower than GJ(Zomari), whom Ichigo really struggled upon?

It's not necessarily that power levels are inconsistent(they are somewhat I agree), but that there are other factors than brute power. For example, Kenpachi may have been the THE best opponent to face Nnoitora rather than Ichigo. Maybe Kenpachi would've struggled against GJ >.>

I mean, the hollow mask merely creates a hybrid, it does not guarantee that hybrid is better than either side. I'm sure the weaker arrancars are below a Vasto Lorde hollow or that Vizard Ichigo is still below Yamamoto or Aizen. The mask is there to boost, but it doesn't really gap the user from the "regular" people. Saying Ichigo with mask cannot harm someone doesn't mean nobody can harm that someone. It just means Ichigo, with the added boost of his mask, still did not have the strength to hurt that enemy. maybe a shinigami(or hollow) will have enough basic strength to hurt that same enemy(without the need for a boost from a hollow mask).

Yans86
November 22, 2008, 09:21 AM
Basically what is being said here is that Hitsugaya, Ukitake, and Shunsui don't have a chance against the Espada, and even if they do win, it's fanservice? You sound really biased against them right now. They are captains, they don't get to be captain for no reason. I do strongly blieve they all have power we haven't seen yet.

I won't complain about them,I would be happy if they win!!!!but ot only this,basically their experience must be far far far beyond than that opf Hitsu...so for them to beat a Top espada is ok.....but for Hitsu......come on...

Same for the Vizard,they must be overwhelming,they r all ex Capt/VC,and they mastered their Vizard power for 100 years,so they must be really beyond the actual levels of power!!!

.....................Ichigo has beaten Byakuya thx to the mask.........just to remeber...

Eddy01741
November 23, 2008, 10:19 AM
There is more to a battle than pure strength. As shown, at the current time, Ichigo's mask only serves as a stats booster, increasing his abilities, but not really granting him anything new. You can't use a>b>c logic in Bleach.

Ex: you'd say Ichigo was able to tie Kenpachi in SS, but Kenpachi defeated Nnoitora while Ichigo barely managed to defeat GJ(1 level below Nnoitora) when he got his bankai and hollow mask upgrade.

Or how about Ichigo actually besting Byakuya while Byakuya literally eased through 1 level lower than GJ(Zomari), whom Ichigo really struggled upon?

It's not necessarily that power levels are inconsistent(they are somewhat I agree), but that there are other factors than brute power. For example, Kenpachi may have been the THE best opponent to face Nnoitora rather than Ichigo. Maybe Kenpachi would've struggled against GJ >.>

I mean, the hollow mask merely creates a hybrid, it does not guarantee that hybrid is better than either side. I'm sure the weaker arrancars are below a Vasto Lorde hollow or that Vizard Ichigo is still below Yamamoto or Aizen. The mask is there to boost, but it doesn't really gap the user from the "regular" people. Saying Ichigo with mask cannot harm someone doesn't mean nobody can harm that someone. It just means Ichigo, with the added boost of his mask, still did not have the strength to hurt that enemy. maybe a shinigami(or hollow) will have enough basic strength to hurt that same enemy(without the need for a boost from a hollow mask).

Completely agreed Noitora was a fighter using only pure power, and so was Kenpachi, had Ichigo battled Noitora thenhe might not have been able to even pierce his skin. Grimmjow would also be light years faster than kenpachi, so it is possible some of his more powerful attacks could actually hurt kenpachi. Similarly, BYakuya was perfectly matched up with the 7th espada (the name escapes me right now), his shunpo was just fast enough to evade the sonido attacks of the espada, and then his shikai/bankai was perfect against the espada's "amor" ability.

kikrox1
November 29, 2008, 04:43 PM
i havent been here a wile and it looks like alto to read i only read a little but it looks like the argument is about power levels and limits. From hitsu not being able to hurt and unreleased yammi in his shikai form to fighting one of the top 3 espada........... it doesnt look good for hitsu.

for people sayin hitsu hasnt finished any of his fights and we havent seen his full power you are wrong. He fought against the 11th arrancar(grimmjows fraccion) and he needed to be in bankai with his limit off to win and he barely even did that because he fell to earth with a whole lot of blood leaking out of him

it is clear to see that some of these match ups may have been under estimated due to the fact that rangiku thought she could do a 3 vs 1 fight and now look at what happened. if hitsu could let his VC under estimate them like that then what does that say about his judgement for an opponent. even soi fon helped her VC when he was about to be killed but rangiku is missing a chunk of her body now

the only people who havent masterd their sword is probably hitsu and ichigo. Im not tryin to compare ichigo to hitsu but with all that happened its clear ichigo is at least stronger than a few captains or as strong as them but definantly stronger than hitsu and if the 4th has no problem with ichigo when he hasnt mastered anything yet then hitsu can have a chance against hali wen he has had years more experiance

Forever_Melody
November 30, 2008, 09:20 AM
Oh indeed Hitsugaya lacks experience. He is after all the youngest captain to obtain the rank so it's no surprise he's perhaps not fully mature in most fo his powers.

I mean, he probably hasn't reached his Zanpakuto's full capacities and can always improve. Just reaching Bankai is nice, but maybe he's not using his Bankai to the most efficient manner. Byakuya has shown us that Bankai can be used in many different ways and can be improved.

Given time, Hitsugaya might probably become a very strong shinigami. His Hyourinmaru is said to be the most powerful ice element Zanpakuto in SS and the only other time such a comparison was made is when Ukitake said that Yamamoto's Ryuujin Jaka was the most powerful Fire element Zanpakuto so imagine if Hitsugaya managed to master his blaed as much as Yama-jii :o

As for Halibel vs Hitsugaya, I agree that chancs aren't looking good for him, but I sincerely hope Kubo doesn't plan on making Hitsugaya yet ANOTHER punching bag for an opponent. Poor guy has had that too much in this manga lol :p

Raizen
December 01, 2008, 02:16 PM
I would like for hitsu to do something that will stop all these doubts. He is young yet has shown some pretty impressive skills. From what halibel's fraccions can do, i say halbel is crazy strong. So hitsu may not be able to win but al teast he can push her to the edge.

Eddy01741
December 02, 2008, 08:39 PM
Yeah, I agree with Raizen, I would like Hitsugaya to show off some more of his power since I kinda want him to be powerful (but he has let me down each time I've seen him fight). Hopefully Hitsu can at least make Halibel go to resureccion, but making Hitsu beat Halibel would be a bit far-fetched and just absurd.

pointsofinterest
December 02, 2008, 11:25 PM
You can't compare any other character development to Ichigo's development. Ichigo is the main character and gets power-ups faster than any of the normal characters. Ichigo in the course of what I believe is a year went from a strong human soul to Captain status. Like many if not all main characters in any series, the main character power-up so stupidly fast that he soon surpasses everyone.

Secondary characters such as Inoue, Ishida, Renji, and Chad will become stronger faster than the normal characters, but not as fast as the protagonist.

Support characters such as the Captains and Vice-Captains including Hitsugaya are usually bounded by the limits of their world.

With that, to say that Hitsugaya's "potential" is near Ichigo's may be true (though highly doubtful), but what isn't true is rate of development. Ichigo's power development is through the roof, Hitsugaya's power development is faster than the support characters as noted by the others, but is still bounded by the limits of the Bleach world where Ichigo's isn't.

Now, lets bring back the points of Hitsugaya's past.
The good points
1. Hitsugaya became a captain at a very young age compared to everyone else. I believe he's been captain for at least 10 years and at most 50 years.
2. Hitsugaya has the strongest ice-type zanpakuto.
3. Hitsugaya is referred to as a genius.

Bad points
1. Hitsugaya versus Gin
If they were on even level then when Hitsugaya released shikai he would have forced Gin to also release shikai. Gin didn't perceive Hitsugaya as a threat until Hitsugaya released Bankai at which point Gin only released his shikai.

2. Hitsugaya versus Aizen
Ok not even fair to do this comparison, but there's a huge gap if the rabid Hitsugaya Fans didn't noticed.

3. Hitsugaya versus Shawlong (I believe that's his name)
20% power at bankai and he couldn't defeat a simple fraccion. All we can derive from this fight is that Hitsugaya used more than 20% of his power to defeat Shawlong.

4. Hitsugaya versus Yammi
Hitsugaya's shikai didn't even scratch Yammi. Hitsugaya said he must need bankai to even have a chance at beating an UNRELEASED Yammi.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/231/16/
This has to be definitive proof of Hitsugaya's standing compared to the other captains (Very low if you didn't catch it).
Byakuya overwhelmed the 7th Espada upon the release of his Bankai and matched the 7th move for move without even releasing.
Kenpachi forced Nnoitora to release after his eyepatch got removed.
Even Rukia was able to force the 9th Espada to release after she released her shikai.
The point of the previous 3 espada examples is to show that all of the Espada released as soon as their Byakuya/Kenpachi/Rukia released.

5. Hitsugaya versus Luppi
Hitsugaya lost this fight IMO. Luppi was up against Hitsugaya, Yamichika, Ikkaku, and Matsumoto. If Luppi didn't let Hitsugaya prepare his strongest attack to date for like 2 chapters then Hitsugaya would have been gone with a follow up attack by Luppi. The sad part about this is that this attack didn't even completely own Luppi.
Luppi is still up trash talking.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/236/17/
versus
Hitsugaya falling out of the sky for the second time LoL
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/232/11/

Luppi then goes get owned by an unreleased Grimjaw with only one arm.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/240/16/

6. Hitsugaya versus Halibel
The only thing positive I can say is that Hitsugaya got Halibel to draw her sword. Ichigo had to go through hell and back before Ulq even drew his...
---------------------------------------------------
There I basically compiled the points of both arguments with the exception of the Flower Petal theory. The theory is that once Hitsugaya's petals run out then he either loses his bankai or his bankai releases into its true form. If the latter is true then maybe, just maybe we'll see Halibel release to quickly counter Hitsugaya.

The Espada has been hyped to be as strong if not stronger than captains. We've seen 5-10 get man handled. Ulq, who is 4th, is shown to be ridiculously strong with the top 3 even stronger than he is. If the top 3 gets man-handled like the rest of the Espadas then Kubo is honestly a terrible writer. You don't hype villains up so much just so they can drop like flies without casualties. Naruto's Atasuki killed some support and major characters. Even an anime like DBZ kills off main characters (even though they are brought back).

If the top 3 gets defeated single handed with no help then I'm quitting Bleach because it would make no sense. The story would be too one dimensional.

rocklee87
December 03, 2008, 03:45 AM
.....................Ichigo has beaten Byakuya thx to the mask.........just to remeber...

Actually I think Ichi was able to beat him because byakuya was going through some inner conflict....his sword wasn't as sharp as it should have been

Raizen
December 03, 2008, 02:03 PM
Actually I think Ichi was able to beat him because byakuya was going through some inner conflict....his sword wasn't as sharp as it should have been
That is right. Bleach is all about resolve, it is the equivalent of the will of fire from naruto. Obviously byakuya was conflicted w/ his decision to kill rukia so that took a toll on his strength. i mean we saw how he decimated espada 7

kikrox1
December 04, 2008, 12:44 AM
You can't compare any other character development to Ichigo's development. Ichigo is the main character and gets power-ups faster than any of the normal characters. Ichigo in the course of what I believe is a year went from a strong human soul to Captain status. Like many if not all main characters in any series, the main character power-up so stupidly fast that he soon surpasses everyone.

Secondary characters such as Inoue, Ishida, Renji, and Chad will become stronger faster than the normal characters, but not as fast as the protagonist.

Support characters such as the Captains and Vice-Captains including Hitsugaya are usually bounded by the limits of their world.

With that, to say that Hitsugaya's "potential" is near Ichigo's may be true (though highly doubtful), but what isn't true is rate of development. Ichigo's power development is through the roof, Hitsugaya's power development is faster than the support characters as noted by the others, but is still bounded by the limits of the Bleach world where Ichigo's isn't.

Now, lets bring back the points of Hitsugaya's past.
The good points
1. Hitsugaya became a captain at a very young age compared to everyone else. I believe he's been captain for at least 10 years and at most 50 years.
2. Hitsugaya has the strongest ice-type zanpakuto.
3. Hitsugaya is referred to as a genius.

Bad points
1. Hitsugaya versus Gin
If they were on even level then when Hitsugaya released shikai he would have forced Gin to also release shikai. Gin didn't perceive Hitsugaya as a threat until Hitsugaya released Bankai at which point Gin only released his shikai.

2. Hitsugaya versus Aizen
Ok not even fair to do this comparison, but there's a huge gap if the rabid Hitsugaya Fans didn't noticed.

3. Hitsugaya versus Shawlong (I believe that's his name)
20% power at bankai and he couldn't defeat a simple fraccion. All we can derive from this fight is that Hitsugaya used more than 20% of his power to defeat Shawlong.

4. Hitsugaya versus Yammi
Hitsugaya's shikai didn't even scratch Yammi. Hitsugaya said he must need bankai to even have a chance at beating an UNRELEASED Yammi.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/231/16/
This has to be definitive proof of Hitsugaya's standing compared to the other captains (Very low if you didn't catch it).
Byakuya overwhelmed the 7th Espada upon the release of his Bankai and matched the 7th move for move without even releasing.
Kenpachi forced Nnoitora to release after his eyepatch got removed.
Even Rukia was able to force the 9th Espada to release after she released her shikai.
The point of the previous 3 espada examples is to show that all of the Espada released as soon as their Byakuya/Kenpachi/Rukia released.

5. Hitsugaya versus Luppi
Hitsugaya lost this fight IMO. Luppi was up against Hitsugaya, Yamichika, Ikkaku, and Matsumoto. If Luppi didn't let Hitsugaya prepare his strongest attack to date for like 2 chapters then Hitsugaya would have been gone with a follow up attack by Luppi. The sad part about this is that this attack didn't even completely own Luppi.
Luppi is still up trash talking.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/236/17/
versus
Hitsugaya falling out of the sky for the second time LoL
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/232/11/

Luppi then goes get owned by an unreleased Grimjaw with only one arm.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/240/16/

6. Hitsugaya versus Halibel
The only thing positive I can say is that Hitsugaya got Halibel to draw her sword. Ichigo had to go through hell and back before Ulq even drew his...
---------------------------------------------------
There I basically compiled the points of both arguments with the exception of the Flower Petal theory. The theory is that once Hitsugaya's petals run out then he either loses his bankai or his bankai releases into its true form. If the latter is true then maybe, just maybe we'll see Halibel release to quickly counter Hitsugaya.

The Espada has been hyped to be as strong if not stronger than captains. We've seen 5-10 get man handled. Ulq, who is 4th, is shown to be ridiculously strong with the top 3 even stronger than he is. If the top 3 gets man-handled like the rest of the Espadas then Kubo is honestly a terrible writer. You don't hype villains up so much just so they can drop like flies without casualties. Naruto's Atasuki killed some support and major characters. Even an anime like DBZ kills off main characters (even though they are brought back).

If the top 3 gets defeated single handed with no help then I'm quitting Bleach because it would make no sense. The story would be too one dimensional.


._. yea i can't believed i actually read all of this but i only have a few comments in the "bad points" section on number 3:

you did get the name right but Hitsu and all the others needed to release their limits to defeat fraccion level arrancar....... they were Grimmjows fraccion but still fraccion so i think Hitsu must have needed way more than just 20% maybe(im just giving a random number)70% because he did fall out of the sky afterwords with blood squirting out of him( just cuz i like Hitsu bashing im going to add that D-roy was the leader of those fraccion until Grimmjow came and Rukia took D-roy out with no problem at all(and the 9th espada when hitsu cant hurt the 10th :blink))

and point number 6: Ulq stated he drew his sword because he saw Ichigo as a threat to HC and he needed to be eliminated(im sure as the fight gets going he will see a better reason than that). This is just a theroy but maybe Halibel is in the same mind frame as him and drew her sword because Hitsu is a minor threat to Aizens plan

Forever_Melody
December 04, 2008, 08:08 PM
1. Hitsugaya versus Gin
If they were on even level then when Hitsugaya released shikai he would have forced Gin to also release shikai. Gin didn't perceive Hitsugaya as a threat until Hitsugaya released Bankai at which point Gin only released his shikai

I agree with mostly everything in your post, but I'd just like to correct his one little thing if you don't mind lol :eyeroll. Hitsugaya did not release his Bankai against Gin, but merely his Shikai. We first see Hitsugaya's Bankai against Aizen at the Central 46 Chamber. Therefore, Hitsugaya and Gin were more or less on equal footing during that short bout.

But yeah, Hitsugaya has points for him on both sides. He's had a bad track record, but for his age, I'm sure he's far above average. Just look at mini-Byakuya in the flashback chapter; he was probably near Hitsugaya's age and I'm sure he didn't have Bankai back then >.>

Eddy01741
December 04, 2008, 08:28 PM
You can't compare any other character development to Ichigo's development. Ichigo is the main character and gets power-ups faster than any of the normal characters. Ichigo in the course of what I believe is a year went from a strong human soul to Captain status. Like many if not all main characters in any series, the main character power-up so stupidly fast that he soon surpasses everyone.

Secondary characters such as Inoue, Ishida, Renji, and Chad will become stronger faster than the normal characters, but not as fast as the protagonist.

Support characters such as the Captains and Vice-Captains including Hitsugaya are usually bounded by the limits of their world.

With that, to say that Hitsugaya's "potential" is near Ichigo's may be true (though highly doubtful), but what isn't true is rate of development. Ichigo's power development is through the roof, Hitsugaya's power development is faster than the support characters as noted by the others, but is still bounded by the limits of the Bleach world where Ichigo's isn't.

Now, lets bring back the points of Hitsugaya's past.
The good points
1. Hitsugaya became a captain at a very young age compared to everyone else. I believe he's been captain for at least 10 years and at most 50 years.
2. Hitsugaya has the strongest ice-type zanpakuto.
3. Hitsugaya is referred to as a genius.

Bad points
1. Hitsugaya versus Gin
If they were on even level then when Hitsugaya released shikai he would have forced Gin to also release shikai. Gin didn't perceive Hitsugaya as a threat until Hitsugaya released Bankai at which point Gin only released his shikai.

2. Hitsugaya versus Aizen
Ok not even fair to do this comparison, but there's a huge gap if the rabid Hitsugaya Fans didn't noticed.

3. Hitsugaya versus Shawlong (I believe that's his name)
20% power at bankai and he couldn't defeat a simple fraccion. All we can derive from this fight is that Hitsugaya used more than 20% of his power to defeat Shawlong.

4. Hitsugaya versus Yammi
Hitsugaya's shikai didn't even scratch Yammi. Hitsugaya said he must need bankai to even have a chance at beating an UNRELEASED Yammi.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/231/16/
This has to be definitive proof of Hitsugaya's standing compared to the other captains (Very low if you didn't catch it).
Byakuya overwhelmed the 7th Espada upon the release of his Bankai and matched the 7th move for move without even releasing.
Kenpachi forced Nnoitora to release after his eyepatch got removed.
Even Rukia was able to force the 9th Espada to release after she released her shikai.
The point of the previous 3 espada examples is to show that all of the Espada released as soon as their Byakuya/Kenpachi/Rukia released.

5. Hitsugaya versus Luppi
Hitsugaya lost this fight IMO. Luppi was up against Hitsugaya, Yamichika, Ikkaku, and Matsumoto. If Luppi didn't let Hitsugaya prepare his strongest attack to date for like 2 chapters then Hitsugaya would have been gone with a follow up attack by Luppi. The sad part about this is that this attack didn't even completely own Luppi.
Luppi is still up trash talking.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/236/17/
versus
Hitsugaya falling out of the sky for the second time LoL
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/232/11/

Luppi then goes get owned by an unreleased Grimjaw with only one arm.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/240/16/

6. Hitsugaya versus Halibel
The only thing positive I can say is that Hitsugaya got Halibel to draw her sword. Ichigo had to go through hell and back before Ulq even drew his...
---------------------------------------------------
There I basically compiled the points of both arguments with the exception of the Flower Petal theory. The theory is that once Hitsugaya's petals run out then he either loses his bankai or his bankai releases into its true form. If the latter is true then maybe, just maybe we'll see Halibel release to quickly counter Hitsugaya.

The Espada has been hyped to be as strong if not stronger than captains. We've seen 5-10 get man handled. Ulq, who is 4th, is shown to be ridiculously strong with the top 3 even stronger than he is. If the top 3 gets man-handled like the rest of the Espadas then Kubo is honestly a terrible writer. You don't hype villains up so much just so they can drop like flies without casualties. Naruto's Atasuki killed some support and major characters. Even an anime like DBZ kills off main characters (even though they are brought back).

If the top 3 gets defeated single handed with no help then I'm quitting Bleach because it would make no sense. The story would be too one dimensional.
Now, i'm not defending Hitsu's power, since I do think he is pretty weak from what we have seen from him, but you have some wrong points.

1. Hitsugaya was using shikai against Gin and then when he finally cornered Gin, gin used his own shikai to repel it, but he also played Hitsu into being "responsible" for Momo's death by dodging the sword (but luckily matsumoto was there to calm Gin down and end the conflict).

3. All the fighters needed more than 20% to beat the fraccion. Rukia and Ikkaku never had a limiter in the first place since they arn't VC or Captain. Matsumoto held her fraccion off with just shikai though while Renji and Hitsugaya needed bankai. That kinda shines badly on those two. The way I see it, a shinigami should be able to defeat a fraccion that level with shikai no limiter or bankai with limiter. If you remember, limiter is 20% power, and bankai usually means 5-10 times more powerful than with just shikai. So they kinda cancel each other out (actually bankai's effect does more than cancel them out). I can kind of forgive Renji's bankai not being able to finish the job since he just got it and was not properly trained to use it well enough, but Hitsugaya was a full blown captain, he should have enough mastery with his bankai to defeat shawlong with the limiter still on. I mean, Matsumoto held off her fraccion with her shikai and with limiter on,a nd defeated him easily with shikai after limiter was removed.

Either way, it's a bad showing for Hitsugaya. Also, to the guy 2 posts above (kikrox), D-Roy was the WEAKEST fraccion of Grimmjow, not the leader. He had his mask bitten off when he was still an adjuchas hollow, so he was almost a failure as an arrancar. Shawlong was the leader of the fraccion the way I see it. That said, Rukia just destroyed D-Roy with only the first dance of her zanpakuto.

Mansam
December 05, 2008, 04:35 AM
First of all, don't call me slow. I could call you slow for not being able to spell words correctly. Hitsugaya fought Ichimaru and Ichimaru was a captain at that point and Ichimaru, and to my recollection Ichimaru didn't get a hit off Hitsugaya.


Don't mind me intruding but though Ichimaru didn't actually hit Hitsugaya,he did manage to feud off his attacks with Shikai.We don't know about Ichimaru's combat abilities too well,but we have seen Captain Hisugaya's performance on many occasions already.

I'm afraid he may not be strong enough to even put up a fight with one of the top three Espada.But who knows?Kubo-san works in mysterious ways..

Aonsaithya
December 05, 2008, 06:24 AM
Don't mind me intruding but though Ichimaru didn't actually hit Hitsugaya,he did manage to feud off his attacks with Shikai.We don't know about Ichimaru's combat abilities too well,but we have seen Captain Hisugaya's performance on many occasions already.

I'm afraid he may not be strong enough to even put up a fight with one of the top three Espada.But who knows?Kubo-san works in mysterious ways..

After Kira gave us a lecture on just how awesome Hitsugaya's sword is, Ichimaru fends off his attacks without releasing Shinso. I really felt disappointed when I saw that the bigger-than-a-bus ice dragon only managed to freeze Ichimaru's left arm.

Raizen
December 05, 2008, 02:56 PM
After Kira gave us a lecture on just how awesome Hitsugaya's sword is, Ichimaru fends off his attacks without releasing Shinso. I really felt disappointed when I saw that the bigger-than-a-bus ice dragon only managed to freeze Ichimaru's left arm.
It was a battle between shikai vs shikai. Hitsu used the dragon and ichimaru had to use his shinso to block it. But even then the ice was still able to freeze his arm giving hitsu the advantage.

Like always, all of hitsu's battles have been interfered or hitsu was not fighting full power (like a limit). In his fight with halibel he won;t have those restrictions, so lets sit back and see what he can do b4 we judge him. Halibel noticed a drop in his SP meaning she must know just how strong he is. If his SP dropped it would be the perfect chance to attack and kill him if she was that much stronger than him. But she didn't meaning he isn't as weak as most claim he is

Aonsaithya
December 05, 2008, 04:45 PM
It was a battle between shikai vs shikai. Hitsu used the dragon and ichimaru had to use his shinso to block it. But even then the ice was still able to freeze his arm giving hitsu the advantage.

...Ichimaru did use Shinso as a normal short katana, that's true. He did not release his shikai, though. Ichimaru's shikai makes the blade grow long at an incredible speed, ye know? I can't see the blade getting longer here in chapter 132 http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/132/01/
He only released it at the end of the fight, after his left arm was frozen.

Raizen
December 05, 2008, 05:12 PM
...Ichimaru did use Shinso as a normal short katana, that's true. He did not release his shikai, though. Ichimaru's shikai makes the blade grow long at an incredible speed, ye know? I can't see the blade getting longer here in chapter 132 http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/132/01/
He only released it at the end of the fight, after his left arm was frozen.
But u can't deny hitsu had the advantage. The sword was repel by him leaving gin defenseless and a frozen arm.

Yans86
December 05, 2008, 05:53 PM
Hitsu the advantage of what???he was in a full rage,ready to kill......and Gin was just playing....is this the face\smile of someone going all out? http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/132/03/ http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/132/05/
And when he called out Shinsou,looking at Hitsu?looks like he planned the hit so if Hitsu avoided he could have hitted Hina...http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/132/10/
Everyone knows that Gin is creepy,deadly,cold....so do u really think that in a real fight with the worst violent intention,he would had fought like this?come on!!!!Hitsu is less than a kid in front of people like Gin,Aizen,Yama,Ukitake,Shunsui ecc...

And read the tilt of the chapter....CREEPING LIMIT and to finish the discussion.......who was cutted on the forehead with just one "almost serious" attack=who was bleeding in the face?Hitsu,not Gin.....http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/133/04/

Raizen
December 05, 2008, 05:56 PM
Hitsu the advantage of what???he was in a full rage,ready to kill......and Gin was just playing....is this the face\smile of someone going all out? http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/132/03/ http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/132/05/
And when he called out Shinsou,looking at Hitsu?looks like he planned the hit so if Hitsu avoided he could have hitted Hina...http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/132/10/
Everyone knows that Gin is creepy,deadly,cold....so do u really think that in a real fight with the worst violent intention,he would had fought like this?come on!!!!Hitsu is less than a kid in front of people like Gin,Aizen,Yama,Ukitake,Shunsui ecc...

And read the tilt of the chapter....CREEPY LIMIT
gin is always smiling so that doen't help ur argument. He is basically calm all the time. I guess we can agree to disagree. Gin clearly was caught and his shikai was fend off leaving him defenseless to hitsu.

Yans86
December 05, 2008, 06:28 PM
Is always smiling cause he has nothing to fear,is the only one Aizen trust,what do u think he has done little genius Gin for the last 100 years?and what has Hitsu done?
Gin was playin like u play fighting with a child......

Raizen
December 05, 2008, 07:41 PM
Is always smiling cause he has nothing to fear,is the only one Aizen trust,what do u think he has done little genius Gin for the last 100 years?and what has Hitsu done?
Gin was playin like u play fighting with a child......
U aren't getting it. Gin basically has displayed one emotion throughout most of the manga. him smiling during the fight does not mean he was not serious. I admit that gin is considered a genius but so is hitsu. That fight was cut short so u can't say gin would win

Eddy01741
December 05, 2008, 09:48 PM
I have to say that Hitsugaya didn't have much of an advantage (if any at all). He had to take drastic measures to dodge shinso's shikai attack (which put him out of position to attack) while Gin could have even just swiped his sword to the side (in it's extended mode) to get a hit on Hitsugaya.

Seriously, when Hitsugaya "thought" he had Gin caught, Gin unleashes his own attack, of which Hitsugaya barely avoids (as fast as a gunshot and at point blank) and has played hitsu into being responsible for Hina's death because had he not dodged, Hinamori wouldn't have been hit.

hajialibaig
December 05, 2008, 10:58 PM
Also, Aizen is able to subdue the Espada and he was stated to have twice the reiatsu of a normal captain so he isn't really THAT far away from captain level either :blink.

....Why do people keep on assuming that Aizen has twice the riatsu of a normal captain?.. The only factual information given was: that's the minimum level of riatsu is required to temporarily use the hougyoku at full power.....

So the only thing we can conclude is that Aizen has atleast twice the level of riatsu as a normal captain... maybe his actual riatsu level is 3x..we still have to find that out

And yea, there is also the whole ambiguity of what defines "a normal" captain... could it be Byakuya? Fox guy? Kenpachi? // who knows

Raizen
December 05, 2008, 11:16 PM
I have to say that Hitsugaya didn't have much of an advantage (if any at all). He had to take drastic measures to dodge shinso's shikai attack (which put him out of position to attack) while Gin could have even just swiped his sword to the side (in it's extended mode) to get a hit on Hitsugaya.

Seriously, when Hitsugaya "thought" he had Gin caught, Gin unleashes his own attack, of which Hitsugaya barely avoids (as fast as a gunshot and at point blank) and has played hitsu into being responsible for Hina's death because had he not dodged, Hinamori wouldn't have been hit.
I don't get what u mean by drastic measures to dodge the attack. He moved quickly to dodge a close and as u said fast ass attack. This shows his ability to move quickly. Gin purposely aimed at hinamori b/c he was at a disadvantage. Not only was his arm frozen, he was caught by the chain too.

Forever_Melody
December 06, 2008, 12:14 AM
....Why do people keep on assuming that Aizen has twice the riatsu of a normal captain?.. The only factual information given was: that's the minimum level of riatsu is required to temporarily use the hougyoku at full power.....

So the only thing we can conclude is that Aizen has atleast twice the level of riatsu as a normal captain... maybe his actual riatsu level is 3x..we still have to find that out

And yea, there is also the whole ambiguity of what defines "a normal" captain... could it be Byakuya? Fox guy? Kenpachi? // who knows

Well there's an ambiguity for sure. Aizen said "when Hougyouku is temporarily merged with someone who has twice the reiatsu of a captain...". One can read it as saying that twice is the threshold needed while another can read it as saying Aizen was referring to himself directly in that statement.

Besides, my statement is false in the sense that there is more to power than reiatsu since ichigo probably has among the largest tank and he isn't the strongest power in the series... :blink

"Captain level" is really a generalization of a power scale far more intricate than simple number statistics. But this is a bit off-topic lol :p

Hitsugaya is still young. Yo can call him weak for all you like, but I'm certain noboday at his age ever achieved what he did. The very fact that he is the first captain of that age and I'm certain the first captain to achieve Bankai at that age makes it more than underlying of his feats. Obviously when compared to older, more experienced people, he may not be as powerful, but in his own right he trumps he average by far with his progress.

kkck
December 06, 2008, 12:37 AM
Well, aizen drove grimmjow to his knees with reiatsu alone, something which has so far only happened when in soul society arc when people with less that VC reiatsu stand in front of captains. For instance hanatarou and ganju had trouble when zaraki appeared, powerless rukia went livid when byakuga removed his preasure. The fact that aizen did that to grimmjow with no apparent effort shows that he has a reiatsu a lot bigger than twice that of a captain IMO.
On the other hand that doesnt nesesarily make aizen invincible since what a normal captain is is rather vague. Also there are plenty of actual captains who could have "twice the reiatsu of a normal captain" such as kyoraku, kempachi or yamamoto(he is a given IMO).

Forever_Melody
December 06, 2008, 10:49 AM
Well I'm pretty sure Aizen has more than enough reiatsu, but that isn't really the point. He has mastered his large pool of reiatsu and that is why he is he is so strong, not just because of the sheer size of it. For example, Ichigo and Kenpachi have naturally large reserves of reiatsu but they aren't the strongest people in the series(at least not yet) because they haven't learned how to utilize it to its fullest potential yet.

"Normal captain" isn't exactly a rank last I checked... Each person can define a "normal captain" in any way he or she wants really since the manga has not quantified this actual rank.

Anyways, we're veering off-topic lol :p

kikrox1
December 06, 2008, 11:47 AM
How did it become Hitsu Vs Gin and aizens power its plain to see Hitsu cant win he isnt strong enough. Hitsu fans say he was called a genious because he is young but Gin was younger when he got a seated position in squad 5 of the Gotei 13 after he graduated in only one year in the academy so who is the better genious now :notrust

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.04/17/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.04/18/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.04/19/

Forever_Melody
December 06, 2008, 05:28 PM
Well we're not here to argue these things.

O too believe Hitsu's chances of winning are slim to none, but I am certainly against calling him the weakling everyone is saying he is.

Gin became a captain at the same time as Byakuya which was semi-recently so Gin didn't become a captain as young as Hitsugaya did so let's not talk about genius here. Genius does NOT equal strength.

He is a formidable opponent and I could name many people under him as well as over him.

But the fact is that he's a captain and not for any reason(if he really was that weak, they could've let him mature more and simply get him in the squads at a later age) so I'm assuming that Yamamoto and the other captains judged him worthy of taking the position despite his age and his lack of experience.

The only reason Hitsusgaya seems weak is because he's been continuously used as Bleach's punching bag to show off greater powers. I mean, could you imagine any Arrancar hitting down Byakuya so easily?

The fact is that Hitsugaya's looks(the childish appearance) and attitude(he is a bit rash) make it easier for Kubo to shoot him down to hype an opponent. So far only 2 captains have been shot down easily and those 2 were Hitsugaya and Komamura. IMO it's more of a contextual thing than actual strength problem. It's just a lot easier to make someone like Hitsugaya fall to show the opponent's power rather than someone like Kyoraku or Soi Fon.

I don't disagree that he isn't the strongest captain(heck, he's in the lower half probably), but I disagree that he's simply "a weakling". His age plays a huge factor in it. Even genius Gin here wasn't confronted with the same situations as Hitsu at the same age so we can't talk about genius here.

It's really contextual. Hitsugaya's Zanpakuto was said to eb the strongest ice element Zanpakuto. So far, only one other Zanpakuto was ever qualified as being the strongest of a category and guess what? It's Ryuujin Jaka, the possibly strongest Zanpakuto out there at the moment. Just the fact that Hitsugaya's Zanpakuto can be classified even in a similar way as Yamamoto's indicates how much latent potential is there. It's simply that Hitsugaya is begin thrust into dangerous situations before reaching that potential. Imagine if he managed to master Hyourinmaru to the extent Yamamoto mastered Ryuujin Jaka...

Sorry for sounding like a rant, but I just wanted to input my ideas >.>

hyn_pride93
December 06, 2008, 07:22 PM
Hitsugaya is surely a diverse and unique shinigami in all of the Gotei 13. I believe that he is up there in the stats with power. His zanpaktou is a rare and powerful one. Hitsugaya had his power before he even had a zanpaktou. Even at his young age (before he became a shinigami) he was so powerful that his reiatsu leaking out of him was freezing everything. Who's to say that he can't stand up to Halibel? He isn't a captain for nothing.

Yes he fought an arrancar and almost lost. His body was badly damaged, but he had a seal on him. He also didn't know what to expect from the arrancar because he's never fought one before. For him to defeat the arrancar, the seal needed to be lifted. Once it was gone, the arrancar was defeated fast.

Now time has passed and he has surely become stronger. He's already fought against an espada. Didn't kill him but that was because they retreated at the last second because they had captured Orihime. Luupi would've been killed by him if Yami hadn't taken him back. Doesn't matter though, because he was killed by Grim.

His bankai's true power hasn't been revealed to anyone. We've only ever seen him use the water to freeze things, give him wings and claws and a tail. And three ice flowers behind him.

Halibel is an espada. She is already powerful as it is and may be even toying with Hitsugaya right now. But she isn't stupid (maybe). This fight is going to be epic. I just hope that no one (other then the vizards) steps in when Hitsugaya is near death to fight off Halibel. That would just make Hitsugaya look weak.

Yans86
December 07, 2008, 09:27 AM
How did it become Hitsu Vs Gin and aizens power its plain to see Hitsu cant win he isnt strong enough. Hitsu fans say he was called a genious because he is young but Gin was younger when he got a seated position in squad 5 of the Gotei 13 after he graduated in only one year in the academy so who is the better genious now :notrust

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.04/17/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.04/18/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.04/19/

Totally agree with you,and he killed a 3th seat like nothing.....




Gin became a captain at the same time as Byakuya which was semi-recently so Gin didn't become a captain as young as Hitsugaya did so let's not talk about genius here. Genius does NOT equal strength.Gin became captain at the moment Aizen needed him to be captain....after the defection of all the Vizards,how many VC worth to take the captain position where there?or 3seat?.....Gin could have taken that easily...



But the fact is that he's a captain and not for any reason(if he really was that weak, they could've let him mature more and simply get him in the squads at a later age) so I'm assuming that Yamamoto and the other captains judged him worthy of taking the position despite his age and his lack of experience.
Despite his age and his lack of experience,we can easily assume that all the other VC and Captains where there before him...and also that none of the VC had bankai.....so the only one at disposition who was???Hitsugaya!!!also everyone knows that there are only 3 methods to become captain....Captain test\be appointed by half of the captain and 3 more captains has to agree\and kill the previous captain....do u think that Hitsu killed the previous 10th division captain??so.......he didn't kill and no VC or 3th seat had bankai....quite easy to understand why he became captain!!!!


I don't disagree that he isn't the strongest captain(heck, he's in the lower half probably), but I disagree that he's simply "a weakling". His age plays a huge factor in it. Even genius Gin here wasn't confronted with the same situations as Hitsu at the same age so we can't talk about genius here.
What what what????????genius Gin was there http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.09/18/ VC of Aizen as a child,and they deceived all this experienced guys http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.12/19/ .I'd like to ask u something also.....How do u think they collected all the adjucas,the Gillian to make the espada's?Do u think Aizen was supposed to search the VL all by himself?How did they do their army?How do u think they were put in submission???Someone had to fight them and put them in submission.......3 people Aizen,Gin,Tousen...How many years did it take?the last 100 years,from the very beginning Gin was doing stuff like that,he was Aizen VC so don't give me this crap...


It's really contextual. Hitsugaya's Zanpakuto was said to eb the strongest ice element Zanpakuto. So far, only one other Zanpakuto was ever qualified as being the strongest of a category and guess what? It's Ryuujin Jaka, the possibly strongest Zanpakuto out there at the moment. Just the fact that Hitsugaya's Zanpakuto can be classified even in a similar way as Yamamoto's indicates how much latent potential is there. It's simply that Hitsugaya is begin thrust into dangerous situations before reaching that potential. Imagine if he managed to master Hyourinmaru to the extent Yamamoto mastered Ryuujin Jaka...
Who said that they have the same potential?is not One PIece here with Logia DF....No one in bleach stated that Hyourinmaru is equal to Ryujin Jaka....Rukia has the second Ice Zanpakotou so it's easy for him to have the strongest one....and 3rd point assuming your point,we have to wait 5000 years to see Hitsu at Old Yama level........




Hitsugaya is surely a diverse and unique shinigami in all of the Gotei 13. I believe that he is up there in the stats with power. His zanpaktou is a rare and powerful one. Hitsugaya had his power before he even had a zanpaktou. Even at his young age (before he became a shinigami) he was so powerful that his reiatsu leaking out of him was freezing everything.
Are u referring to this???
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/303.1/20/
I don't see Ice anywhere...spread cold air is not freeze the environment,the only Ice he saw was in his dream...
Halibel has to rape him or is going to be fanservice....
About Luppi he became sexta espada and he died with one blow from GJ....also the fight.....it was still 4 against one for what I remember...limit lifted....if it was one on one Hitsu would be raped cause he wouldn't have the time to create all his Ice b******* cage...




His bankai's true power hasn't been revealed to anyone. We've only ever seen him use the water to freeze things, give him wings and claws and a tail. And three ice flowers behind him.

His bankai true power.....are u talking about that?? http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/170/18-19/ is beatyful to see Ice covered in blood ih ihih ihi hi
Also about Hitsugaya Bankai,all this true power b******t is just speculation,there's no place in Bleach where is said that the shatter of the petals would mean BOOST SUPER SAIYAN ICE POWER...maybe u have to re-read the speech with Shawlong http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/208/13/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/208/14/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/208/15/

Just to finish....for all the Gin was caught in Ice so he wasn't in advantage...http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/208/12/
Shawlong shuttered that lce with his finger like nothing...
Also the story that only Hitsu had spiritual power before becoming shinigami,sure everyone forgot soon: http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/98/08/ and Matsumoto speech here http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/303.1/20/

Halibel has to rape Hitsugaya,END!!!!

lions4lyfe
December 07, 2008, 10:15 AM
Personally I think in taking on one of the top 3 Espada, Toushiro has moved up in power in my book. I think that he stands a chance in beatin her. Maybe he has finally masterd his bankai.

hav u eva thought that maybe his job is 2 just stall her??? mayb till some1 lyk yoruichi comes along, hes not going 2 beat halibel hes not that strong yet. I would bet u anything that yoruichi will come along and fight her

Yans86
December 07, 2008, 11:44 AM
Yeah Hitsu mastered his bankai aha ha hah aha aha if I remember Shawlong said that his bankai is incomplete cause Hitsu is in his infancy.......Byakuya said that u need years to achieve and master fully your bankai.....same absunction was made by Yoruichi....Ichigo with his huge potential achieved bankai thx to the special training........

So why Hitsu in few month with normal method has complete his bankai??don't say cause he is a genius cause he could have done it the last 10 years....... Do u know the difference between Hitsugaya growth rate and Ichigo growth rate??Ichigo reach new levels fighting his ineer hollow......that's the difference....his shinigami power has to outcome everytime his hollow counterpart to control it along with Zangetsu.....no one has this special situation...

Forever_Melody
December 07, 2008, 06:16 PM
lol this isn't going anywhere. I'm not here to defend Hitsugaya. He isn't the strongest person and very far from it, but he certainly isn't the weakling everyone is making him out to be. While being perhaps the weakest captain, he still is above the VCs and other shinigami of lower levels who are older than him.

Seems people are just using Gin as a reason to put down Hitsugaya's achievements. So what if someone did better? That doesn't mean what you did is now worthless >_> Hitsugaya still did master Bankai at an early age and reach the captain level which is quite a feat in itself. This very feat is probably the reason why he's getting beat up all the time: because he progressed high into a ladder which was above him by many miles. Put all of the current captains when they were Hitsu's age against the opponents Hitsugaya has faced and it facing and see if they can take it. I'm sure the higher captains could pull it off as well as Hitsu(if not better), but I'm also sure some of them didn't even have Bankai at that age.

Raizen
December 08, 2008, 08:18 PM
lol this isn't going anywhere. I'm not here to defend Hitsugaya. He isn't the strongest person and very far from it, but he certainly isn't the weakling everyone is making him out to be. While being perhaps the weakest captain, he still is above the VCs and other shinigami of lower levels who are older than him.

Seems people are just using Gin as a reason to put down Hitsugaya's achievements. So what if someone did better? That doesn't mean what you did is now worthless >_> Hitsugaya still did master Bankai at an early age and reach the captain level which is quite a feat in itself. This very feat is probably the reason why he's getting beat up all the time: because he progressed high into a ladder which was above him by many miles. Put all of the current captains when they were Hitsu's age against the opponents Hitsugaya has faced and it facing and see if they can take it. I'm sure the higher captains could pull it off as well as Hitsu(if not better), but I'm also sure some of them didn't even have Bankai at that age.
Thank you. While hitsu has not shown anything impressive yet, he sure is not weak. We have not seen him go all out with no limits or distraction against an opponent yet. If he was as weak as most said, halibel would have killed him already if she sensed his SP was fluctuating

Onomatopoeia
December 12, 2008, 02:20 PM
Also about Hitsugaya Bankai,all this true power b******t is just speculation,there's no place in Bleach where is said that the shatter of the petals would mean BOOST SUPER SAIYAN ICE POWER...maybe u have to re-read the speech with Shawlong http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/208/13/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/208/14/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/208/15/
I don't particularly care for this argument but this part right here bugs me. What is Shawlong an expert on Bankais? Cause yeah, he's seen so many before AMIRITE??

It's his theory that we have no reason to believe especially since Renji never had a time limit on his first try with Bankai. And it brings up another question, why doesn't Kubo just show it then? He's was so close to losing it but he canceled seconds before.

Cause you know he didn't have a clue about limiters, which pretty much discredits him.

Forever_Melody
December 12, 2008, 07:40 PM
Mind you Hitsugaya also said that as long as there is water present, he can reform his Bankai indefinitely so Shawlong's statement and Hitsu's clash there. Who should we believe though? An arrancar or the actual user of the Bankai?

Eddy01741
December 12, 2008, 09:16 PM
Probably the actual ser of the bankai. However, if Hitsugaya no longer has the reiatsu to continue using bankai, then his sword will become that of a normal katana again most likely. The way I see it, if somebody say... cuts teh wings off of Hitsugaya's ice dragon bankai, he could reform them with water, but if Hitsugaya has been sucked dry of his reiatsu, his bankai will no longer be able to be used.

Now, the whole flowers of time is an interesting debate, however, I'd have to agree with Shawlong's analysis of it. The flowers lose petals over time, now, I think that it just represents the time left that he can still use bankai, but some say he'll have some more powerful attack/form of bankai when he runs out of the petals. Now, why would that make sense? He has to wait and physically use up all of his reiatsu in order to get to a stronger attack/form? THat's counterintuitive to the battle, yes, then HItsugaya will get stronger as the battle goes on, but he will also be more worn out and fatigued as the battle rages on. When his limiter was released, Hitsugaya suddenly went back to having 3 whole flowers IIRC, so it is very likely that they vanish/appear from the amount of reiatsu he has left. If you think about it further, if Hitsugaya would take a very short amount of time to reach a stronger attack/form with a limiter on, than with the limiter off, that makes him even more handicapped as he is at a theoretical disadvantage for longer in the fight.

Onomatopoeia
December 13, 2008, 12:58 AM
Probably the actual ser of the bankai. However, if Hitsugaya no longer has the reiatsu to continue using bankai, then his sword will become that of a normal katana again most likely. The way I see it, if somebody say... cuts teh wings off of Hitsugaya's ice dragon bankai, he could reform them with water, but if Hitsugaya has been sucked dry of his reiatsu, his bankai will no longer be able to be used.

Now, the whole flowers of time is an interesting debate, however, I'd have to agree with Shawlong's analysis of it. The flowers lose petals over time, now, I think that it just represents the time left that he can still use bankai, but some say he'll have some more powerful attack/form of bankai when he runs out of the petals. Now, why would that make sense? He has to wait and physically use up all of his reiatsu in order to get to a stronger attack/form? THat's counterintuitive to the battle, yes, then HItsugaya will get stronger as the battle goes on, but he will also be more worn out and fatigued as the battle rages on. When his limiter was released, Hitsugaya suddenly went back to having 3 whole flowers IIRC, so it is very likely that they vanish/appear from the amount of reiatsu he has left. If you think about it further, if Hitsugaya would take a very short amount of time to reach a stronger attack/form with a limiter on, than with the limiter off, that makes him even more handicapped as he is at a theoretical disadvantage for longer in the fight.

I had a great reply to this but my computer went retarded and I'm to lazy to write it up again so...

Go read the Shawlong vs Hitsugaya fight again, specificly everything after Hitsugaya releases his limit.

Once you do you'll realize your arguement really works better for me.

Actually WTF is this, on the top panel?? (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/210/07/)(note this has nothing to do with what I'm talking about)

Forever_Melody
December 13, 2008, 07:24 AM
Perhaps the petals are simply there to indicate the actual strength in Hitsugaya's Bankai, not the duration. Maybe once the petals die, Hitsugaya's Bankai disintegrates but Hitsugaya can always remake it if he has enough water and reiatsu.

Remember in that instance where he tells Luppi about his Bankai being indefinite, we can't see the petals at all...

Also, a point that would favor the argument that "Hitsu's petals fading might be a power boost" would be that we've seen another Zanpakuto which has a similar property(of getting stronger as the battle passes). This Zanpakuto would be Ikkaku's Ryuumon Hozukinaru. As the battle passes and more damage is done to and by the Bankai, the limiter on the big blade increases until it reaches maximum at which point the Bankai reaches its peak power.

So going by this logic, Hitsugaya's Bankai may operate in a similar way. The difference would be that we haven't seen that Hitsugaya has a way to forcefully reach this point(like Ikkaku spinning his Bankai).

Yans86
December 13, 2008, 08:01 AM
So...what was the point for Shawlong/Kubo to explain Hitsu's bankai?
Why he stated that it is a countdown due to his young age?
It's not like if there's water he can call bankai everytime,u need also enough reiatsu cause if it was like that he could freeze an entire city without dropping a sweat.....
Also the fact that he was loosing....did he prefer to die than to show his real/boost power?
Ikkaku's bankai power increase while keep fighting at max power....if it was the same,Hitsu has to keep fight to max and not stand still like an idiot...his power was dropping not raising....
Why Hitsu didn't answer to Shawlong explanation?cause Shawlong was right....usually in a manga if a say something about your power and I'm wrong...u would show me and kick my ass!

Onomatopoeia
December 13, 2008, 10:16 AM
So...what was the point for Shawlong/Kubo to explain Hitsu's bankai?
Why he stated that it is a countdown due to his young age?
It's not like if there's water he can call bankai everytime,u need also enough reiatsu cause if it was like that he could freeze an entire city without dropping a sweat.....
Also the fact that he was loosing....did he prefer to die than to show his real/boost power?
Ikkaku's bankai power increase while keep fighting at max power....if it was the same,Hitsu has to keep fight to max and not stand still like an idiot...his power was dropping not raising....
Why Hitsu didn't answer to Shawlong explanation?cause Shawlong was right....usually in a manga if a say something about your power and I'm wrong...u would show me and kick my ass!
*Sigh*
The flower petals stay at the same number despite the the quintupuling of reaitsu. This means the flower petals have nothing to do with reaitsu.

Hitsugaya states(and shows) that his Bankai can be reformed as long as their is water in the atmosphere. This need Reaitsu.

Since Hitsugaya can most certainly recreate his Bankai as many times as he wants as long as he has the reaitsu, it would be reasonable to assume that if Shawlong's theory was correct Hitsugaya's petals are based on Reaitsu, right? Wrong. I've already pointed out that they're not. Another way to put this is if the petals dissapear then if his Bankai were to break those petals would need to be reaitsu based, to bad they're not.

Still another way to put it is this: Shawlongs theory is BS. Kubo did not back up Shawlong's theory.

Better question, who's to say he has full control over this power? Or he puts on a limiter for safety purposes.

Hitsugaya didn't answer Shawlong's explanation because it would be useless to reply without giving an extremely long reply that Shawlong wouldn't believe(or you know dramatic purposes), it's not like it's going to be useful to say "YOUR WRONG!!!", thats Ichigo's job. He also gave another explanation about his Bankai later(and this one is actually backed up by his recreation of his Bankai).

Or why didn't KUbo just show the Petals breaking and then Hitsugaya's Bankai in turn breaking, or have Hitsugaya explain his Bankai like that? The answer is that Shawlong is wrong.

Forever_Melody
December 13, 2008, 07:38 PM
So...what was the point for Shawlong/Kubo to explain Hitsu's bankai?
Why he stated that it is a countdown due to his young age?
It's not like if there's water he can call bankai every time,u need also enough reiatsu cause if it was like that he could freeze an entire city without dropping a sweat.....
Also the fact that he was loosing....did he prefer to die than to show his real/boost power?
Ikkaku's bankai power increase while keep fighting at max power....if it was the same,Hitsu has to keep fight to max and not stand still like an idiot...his power was dropping not raising....
Why Hitsu didn't answer to Shawlong explanation?cause Shawlong was right....usually in a manga if a say something about your power and I'm wrong...u would show me and kick my ass!
I'm not disagreeing that Hitsugaya needs reiatsu to perform his Bankai, I'm pretty sure that applies to all spiritual type attacks. But he states that as long as there is water(and probably as long as he has enough reiatsu), he can reform his Bankai and replenish its strength, even if it is destroyed.

Compare this with any other Bankai of physical shape, which might not possess the ability to regenerate itself(ex: Kokujou Tengen Myouhou, Kojinki Asishoji Jizou, Ryuumon Hozukimaru etc.) For example, Ryuumon Hozukimaru is actually quite easy to break as shown by how it was scratched and Ikkaku didn't regenerate it so if he had the ability to, why did he not? The regeneration of a physical shape type Bankai may be something Daiguren Hyourinmaru has special.

I'm not arguing that Hitsugaya's petals indicate a power boost. I'm still unsure of what they represent to be honest.

If they are a limiter, he's the only person who's Bankai was shown to have an actual limit and a visual sign to that limit, which I don't understand. Maybe this would be due to Hitsugaya's young age and his lack of mastery of Bankia, but wouldn't that be the case for Renji as well, who's Bankai is still new as well?

Razh
December 13, 2008, 09:31 PM
I'm sorry from bugging in. i just came from a concert and I'm pretty drunk.

So I'm not really sure about what I'm about to say.

Did Hitsugaya's flowers number increase over time?
It's been a while since I read Bleach in one piece, so I can't really remeber.



Also, I already posted in this topic, but it won't hurt to say it again. Everything besides Hitsugaya getting pawned in his fight against Halibel would be completely unacceptable in the direction that maga was going so far.
I don't care how much you like him. (I don't really get it. He's just overly serious boring kid.)
He can't win.

BeerLobster
December 14, 2008, 02:22 AM
It was a battle between shikai vs shikai. Hitsu used the dragon and ichimaru had to use his shinso to block it. But even then the ice was still able to freeze his arm giving hitsu the advantage.

Like always, all of hitsu's battles have been interfered or hitsu was not fighting full power (like a limit). In his fight with halibel he won;t have those restrictions, so lets sit back and see what he can do b4 we judge him. Halibel noticed a drop in his SP meaning she must know just how strong he is. If his SP dropped it would be the perfect chance to attack and kill him if she was that much stronger than him. But she didn't meaning he isn't as weak as most claim he is

Ichimaru didn't use his Shinso to block it,merely returning the blow.
Hitsugaya froze Ichimaru's arm,but that doesn't really mean that he had the advantage.

I don't know about our 10th Captain,but Captains more powerful than him had trouble dealing with the lower-ranked Espadas.I doubt he'll put up too much of a fight for Halibel.But it's worth a shot.:amuse!

Yans86
December 14, 2008, 10:35 AM
SO Hitsu actually can use bankai eternally cause water is everywhere.............................looks like Aokiji in One Piece,unfortunately he never showed such a badass power and he always had his ass kicked!!!!if his bankai was that strong,what's the purpose on letting his ass been kicked for the whole manga and then let him be super powerful with just couple month of training???I don't get it sorry...

Forever_Melody
December 14, 2008, 11:08 AM
SO Hitsu actually can use bankai eternally cause water is everywhere.............................looks like Aokiji in One Piece,unfortunately he never showed such a badass power and he always had his ass kicked!!!!if his bankai was that strong,what's the purpose on letting his ass been kicked for the whole manga and then let him be super powerful with just couple month of training???I don't get it sorry...

No his Bankai can theoretically regenerate at infinity as longa s there is water, but Hitsugaya needs enough reiatsu to regenerate it(assuming he wouldn't be too harmed).

Also, in the chapter he displayed this ability, some time passed between him falling and him regenerating his Bankai and attacking Luppi so the process may not be instantaneous, which would mean it might not be advantageous to use it in the middle of a battle.

There is also the fact to consider that maybe Shawlong was right and Hitsugaya's Bankai IS immature due to his age. That means there is latent potential in his Bankai, but that Hitsugaya is simply too young and inexperienced to use it properly.

In the same way, Ichigo probably has one of the largest potentials in the series, but I wouldn't call him the strongest guy in the series. Why? Well because he's still inexperienced to this whole thing of Shinigami powers when compared to elder captains or other beings.

Potential for strength and actual present strength are NOT the same thing.

Maybe Hitsugaya has good potential, but he's heading off into battle before this potential has been reached so he's getting his butt whooped and might die before he ever reaches that potential. If Hitsugaya was maybe 1000 or so years older like Ukitake or Kyoraku, then obviously he'd be better no? I don't think anyone will argue this. Hitsugaya has an experience and age disadvantage when compared to the other captains.

That being said, I don't believe Hitsugaya will be able to defeat Halibel. I don't think anyone thinks he will be able to(at least not alone). Although, he'll probably try and give her a good fight before help arrives or he goes down.

I really want to see Hyourinmaru perform well after all this talk that it's "the most powerful Ice element Zanpakuto in all of Soul Society". I don't like it when there's false hype lol :p At this point, Rukia's Soden no Shirayuki has froszen more thins than Hitsugaya's Shikai.

Onomatopoeia
December 14, 2008, 05:29 PM
SO Hitsu actually can use bankai eternally cause water is everywhere.............................looks like Aokiji in One Piece,unfortunately he never showed such a badass power and he always had his ass kicked!!!!if his bankai was that strong,what's the purpose on letting his ass been kicked for the whole manga and then let him be super powerful with just couple month of training???I don't get it sorry...

NO.

He has shown nothing near Aokiji.

Aokiji is so far above Hitsugaya's power it's not even funny.

He isn't ice, he can't create ice without a limit, he doesn't have near the power when it comes to ice, he isn't nearly as strong, not nearly as much creativity/mastery over ice etc.

If this was Aokiji vs Halibel my argument would be very different.

I also have never once argued that Hitsugaya has any real chance in this battle. Without using a theory or stating that Hitsugaya's Fangirls>>>>Halibel.

BeerLobster
December 14, 2008, 07:27 PM
NO.

He has shown nothing near Aokiji.

Aokiji is so far above Hitsugaya's power it's not even funny.

He isn't ice, he can't create ice without a limit, he doesn't have near the power when it comes to ice, he isn't nearly as strong, not nearly as much creativity/mastery over ice.

If this was Aokiji vs Halibel my argument would be very different.

I also have never once argued that Hitsugaya has any real chance in this battle. Without using a theory or stating that Hitsugaya's Fangirls>>>>Halibel.

Yup,that's basically it.

To sum up,Aokiji has more chance of fighting equally or even defeating Halibel in a battle.

@Forever_Melody:Hyourinmaru may be the strongest ice-element Zanpakuto but that doesn't necessarily mean that for the user.

Forever_Melody
December 14, 2008, 10:07 PM
@Forever_Melody:Hyourinmaru may be the strongest ice-element Zanpakuto but that doesn't necessarily mean that for the user.

I agree, that's why I said I want to see Hyourinmaru's performance and not Hitsugaya's performance. :)

IMO, a Zapnakuto is as strong as its wielder. You could give Ryuujin Jakka to Hinamori and it'd loses half its strength because she wouldn't be able to tame and use it properly :p

But the fact is that for all its hype, Hyourinmaru's prestige is being held back by Hitsugaya's bashful defeats. Even Souden no Shirayuki has had more success against its [lesser] opponents than Hyourinmaru has.

I want to see a glimpse of power that would make me think that it deserves the praise Kira and the others seem to be putting on it. Ryuujin Jakka has shown us it deserves its praise through Yamamoto's skillful use of it. I'm not expecting Hitsugaya to pull off anything remotely similar, but to at least show us something that would go "yeah, this kid really has some power(even if he can't use it all)"

kkck
December 15, 2008, 01:30 AM
Yup,that's basically it.

To sum up,Aokiji has more chance of fighting equally or even defeating Halibel in a battle.

@Forever_Melody:Hyourinmaru may be the strongest ice-element Zanpakuto but that doesn't necessarily mean that for the user.

I dont think aokiji stands a chance in hell of defeating hitsu. yes aokiji freeze a large piece of ocean, but you have to condider what hitsu said in his fight againts ichimaru. just to not get accidentaly dragged in into hitsus fight you had to leave go at least seven miles away from hitsu. if we do the math thats an area of 49pi square miles(if we asume hitsu was talking about a circle around himself). Thats a big area, and that was not even intentionaly. God nows what would happen if he means it. And then we have his bankai which could be from 5 to 10 times stronger than his shikai. Not to mention that he can use reiatsu which should be able to hurtt aokiji. For all we know just standing in hitsus presence would be taxin for aokiji. At the end, they are simply two completely different levels and types of fights.

I am completely aware that this is WAY off topic but I felt compeled to write about it.

A for hitsu vs halibel, I think hitsu is crewed. We saw how the sixth espada without releasing could fight at the level of bankai ichigo and the fourth could handle mask and bankai ichigo without so much damage as a damaged sleve. Hitsugaya is good, but most likely he will rely on bankai just to somewhat keep up with unreleased halibel. Although if given the oportunity hitsu could set up something similar to what he did with luppi, which IMO would be awesome.

Razh
December 15, 2008, 06:57 AM
Maybe he could do that, but Luppi survived. And Hitsugaya froze Yammi too. Gave him a nice chill.
I don't think he could have progressed enough to harm one of top 3 Espada with those attacks.

Forever_Melody
December 15, 2008, 08:29 AM
Yeah Hitsugaya has a way to go still. He's good, but not on that level yet from what we've witnessed from him so far. I wish he'd just go into a hyperbolic time chamber and pump up his strength lol :p

studiokid
December 15, 2008, 09:31 AM
LuLz @ hyperbolic time chamber..

Butyou guys gotta consider right now Hitsu is fighting a top 3 Espada in shikai while Ichigo was getting owned by 6 in Bankai, give him a little credit maybe he has some flashy moves up his sleeve.

Forever_Melody
December 15, 2008, 09:48 AM
Well I'm sure Hitsugaya will give a good performance at the least. He's probably going to have to dish out all his stops to fight Halibel and every time we've seen Hitsugaya's Bankai in the series so far, it's shown a new move each time so I'm expecting something cool from Hyourinmaru(pun intended lol :p)

Razh
December 15, 2008, 11:05 AM
Butyou guys gotta consider right now Hitsu is fighting a top 3 Espada in shikai while Ichigo was getting owned by 6 in Bankai, give him a little credit maybe he has some flashy moves up his sleeve.

I only saw a couple of panels of that fight. Nothing special.
And characters in Bleach really like to play around instead of fighting seriously from the start.

I really hope he doesn't have some boring new way of freezing opponents up his sleeve. Boring boy.:p

Onomatopoeia
December 15, 2008, 04:14 PM
I dont think aokiji stands a chance in hell of defeating hitsu. yes aokiji freeze a large piece of ocean, but you have to condider what hitsu said in his fight againts ichimaru. just to not get accidentaly dragged in into hitsus fight you had to leave go at least seven miles away from hitsu. if we do the math thats an area of 49pi square miles(if we asume hitsu was talking about a circle around himself). Thats a big area, and that was not even intentionaly. God nows what would happen if he means it. And then we have his bankai which could be from 5 to 10 times stronger than his shikai. Not to mention that he can use reiatsu which should be able to hurtt aokiji. For all we know just standing in hitsus presence would be taxin for aokiji. At the end, they are simply two completely different levels and types of fights.


Hitsugaya's statement was filled with hyperbole(and things that happened later in the manga also screw with it). And not to mess with you but you somewhat shot yourself in the foot by assuming that Haki=Reaitsu(it really doesn't but w/e) considering Aokiji is top teir and doubtlessly has to fight pirates with a lot of Haki which means he can also fight against people with a lot of Reaitsu.

Yeah Hitsugaya is a prick from time to time. Seriously talk about being a jerk to Kira.

Having said that, Hitsugaya has gained a major powerup if he's fighting equally with Halibel.

kikrox1
December 15, 2008, 09:58 PM
why are u people bringing one piece into this thats just stupid ._. hitsu and him both have ice powers but aokiji can turn into ice, create it, control it and freeze w/e he touches so hitsu has no chance against him ._. (coming from a one piece fan)

Eddy01741
December 15, 2008, 11:04 PM
I don't follow One PIece, so I can't really argue against many of their points, but still, the point remains, Hitsugaya is still to pull off a feat proving that he has a chance against Halibel. His skirmish with Gin turned out to just be gin playing with him, he was destroyed by Aizen, he needed bankai AND limiter removed to kill Shawlong, if Luppi wasn't so arrogant he would have won, a nd his shikai attack against Yammi was completely ineffective.

Also, some of you act as if once Hitsugaya freezes the opponent (or part of the opponent), he wins since they will shatter, but Shawlong just broke the ice around his arm/hand and sustained no injuries (and mind you, this was a limited bankai attack). THe way I see it, is that his ice is only as strong as his reiatsu (or the amount of power he puts into the attack), so in order for him to beat somebody like Yama-jii, he would need similar levels of reiatsu to beat him.

Basically, what I'm saying is that it's POSSIBLE that he could beat halibel (or put up a hell of a fight), but from the feats we have seen thus far, it isn't looking very likely.

mestizo311
December 16, 2008, 04:03 AM
Toushiro fans are in for a rude awakening. I think that even with mastery of his bankai, there would still be no way. He's going up against a top 3 espada here. I think the fights going to be interrupted by either Yoruichi or a Vaizard. I can see Toushiro getting his ass handed to him just like Matsumoto did. I don't think Halibel will even have to release to kick his ass.

Aonsaithya
December 17, 2008, 10:27 AM
http://mangahelpers.com/downloads/read-online/6428/14#apicture
:D

Yans86
December 17, 2008, 10:39 AM
She is scary.......Hitsu is dead meat!!

11
Halibel: You have fought well.
[TN: Bugger. That means ol' Barragan is in the top two.]
Hitsugaya: ! // Power such as yours... / ...and you are still only the third...

12
Halibel: ...Power such as mine? // I have no recollection... // ...of showing you... // ...the extent of my powers just yet, brat.
[TN: luls kinky]

13
Hitsugaya: Bankai!!! // Daiguren Hyourinmaru!!!

14
[no text just hitsu getting his ass kicked as usual]


Oh my my,what a pity!!!!!poor Hitsu....

kkck
December 17, 2008, 01:34 PM
I believe dear hitsu is screwed now, as many people noted he required bankai just to resist her power in her unreleased form. Should halibel release hitsu will be screwed and not in a good way...

Raizen
December 17, 2008, 02:23 PM
http://mangahelpers.com/downloads/read-online/6428/14#apicture
:D
WTF is that??
Is that a spoiler??

Forever_Melody
December 17, 2008, 02:40 PM
The chapter came out and that was Halibel basically slashing Hitsugaya's Bankai. The actual damage to Hitsugaya will probably be seen in the future.

Interesting enough that Halibel actually cares about her Fraccion. So far, the only other Espada that I'd think cares about his/her Fraccion would be Stark so that's an interesting fact.

Eddy01741
December 17, 2008, 02:52 PM
Yeah, I kind of like her character, Grimmjow kind of respects his fraccion (if that is, his hollow wolfpack buddies are actually his fraccion), same with Noitora. Barragan just gets people that invariably agree with him but doesn't care if they die. Then Stark and Halibel actually kind of care about their fraccion, Halibel even sympathized with them when they feared the reiatsu of the ichigo vs. grimmjow fight.

Anyways, I can't see Hitsu winning unless he pulls something out of his ass.

Raizen
December 17, 2008, 03:04 PM
Yeah, I kind of like her character, Grimmjow kind of respects his fraccion (if that is, his hollow wolfpack buddies are actually his fraccion), same with Noitora. Barragan just gets people that invariably agree with him but doesn't care if they die. Then Stark and Halibel actually kind of care about their fraccion, Halibel even sympathized with them when they feared the reiatsu of the ichigo vs. grimmjow fight.

Anyways, I can't see Hitsu winning unless he pulls something out of his ass.
I don't think hitsu is out but him winning when she basically sliced up his bankai in one hit is overreaching. I say soifon will help him while someone takes on barragan

Gecko Moria
December 17, 2008, 03:45 PM
Storywise, Hitsugaya will win for the simple reason that he's too popular to die. But technically Halibel is one of the top Espada and Hitsugaya is one of the most unexperienced captains so Halibel should win.

Raizen
December 17, 2008, 04:00 PM
Storywise, Hitsugaya will win for the simple reason that he's too popular to die. But technically Halibel is one of the top Espada and Hitsugaya is one of the most unexperienced captains so Halibel should win.
I don;t think he can win alone. He is going to need help. His bankai has been shredded. Unless he was sealing the ture power of hyorimaru all along then it will be acceptable. After all hyorinmaru is the strongest ice based zan

kkck
December 17, 2008, 06:00 PM
Hitsugaya is not going to die for two reasons:
1.-First kubo doesnt kill good guys
2.- If he was to start now, I dont think he would go for the kid, that just ain't right.
Hitsugaya just took a good hit, but that doesnt mean he is defeated yet. Probably he will hold on for some more time and then ukitake is going to take his place. Whitehaired dudes vs halibel!

WaveBossa
December 17, 2008, 06:18 PM
I've said it once and i'll say it again.. NO ONE will win against ANY VastroLorde (top 3 at least) in a 1 on 1 match.

It will NOT happen. Hitsugaya will only win if he has help

Raizen
December 17, 2008, 06:52 PM
I've said it once and i'll say it again.. NO ONE will win against ANY VastroLorde (top 3 at least) in a 1 on 1 match.

It will NOT happen. Hitsugaya will only win if he has help
It depends on how developed the VL are. Also we cannot take hitsu's statements as fact seeing as how he is young and just became a captain and has no idea about the power levels of captains like yama, ukitake, shunsui, and unohana

BeerLobster
December 18, 2008, 09:37 PM
Hitsugaya is not going to die for two reasons:
1.-First kubo doesnt kill good guys
2.- If he was to start now, I dont think he would go for the kid, that just ain't right.
Hitsugaya just took a good hit, but that doesnt mean he is defeated yet. Probably he will hold on for some more time and then ukitake is going to take his place. Whitehaired dudes vs halibel!


You merely stated assumptions.
How do you know Kubo-san doesn't kill good guys?LOL.

Sure,Hitsugaya took a good hit.I'm sure Kubo-san would leave lying around to say a few more words before passing out.

Aonsaithya
December 18, 2008, 09:37 PM
I've said it once and i'll say it again.. NO ONE will win against ANY VastroLorde (top 3 at least) in a 1 on 1 match.

It will NOT happen. Hitsugaya will only win if he has help

The top Vizards likely?
We saw just how awesome Shinji was against GJ with just his mask, not even shikai (not to mention bankai) :P
If bankai is 5-10x stronger than shikai (as Yoruichi said), and he wasn't even in shikai, he's a monster.

Anyways, you probably meant that none of the current captains, currently fighting will win?
Also you know what's weird? "The greater the hollow, the more humanlike an arrancar he makes" or that? Ulquiorra, GJ, Zomari and Szayel look a lot more humanlike than Halibel, they all have less masks left, and none have the boney/chitinous "breastplate" Halibel has...
Or maybe all the Espada have bone-underwear?
Damned it's late.

kikrox1
December 18, 2008, 10:01 PM
i dont think hitsu will get help from the other captains that are fighting they will be busy and the vizards are still coming and im sticking to my theory that it will be them vs the top 3 espada, aizen, gin, and tousen but thats just me shunsui might be able to beat stark and soi fon might beat barragan or whatever the only person i really have low faith in is hitsu and from what we all have just seen its not misjudged but if they win then im sure they wont be at full strength and it will be the remaning VC's, jushiro, and yamma fighting aizen, gin, and tousen ._. im pretty sure that the VC wont be alot of help so then they need more fighters

Onomatopoeia
December 18, 2008, 11:04 PM
You merely stated assumptions.
How do you know Kubo-san doesn't kill good guys?LOL.

Sure,Hitsugaya took a good hit.I'm sure Kubo-san would leave lying around to say a few more words before passing out.
Flashbacks don't count. How many other good guys have died??


Also Guys you just posted spoilers outside of the spoiler thread. The mods don't usually come in here but that doesn't change the fact that people who don't want to see the spoilers really would rather not be spoiled.

Yans86
December 19, 2008, 09:32 AM
What if the top three aren't VL................for sure it would be fun.....and what it would be funnier.....Halibel beeing a VL but not an arrancar....for the moment ihhiih i

Forever_Melody
December 19, 2008, 10:28 PM
Yeah Halibel probably has the most "mask" left of all the arrancars we've seen so far. And technically, part of it isn't really a mask, but part of her torso lol :p An oddity to say the least >.>

I agree Hitsugaya won't win on his own. It'd be a story killer for Halibel to lose to Hitsugaya alone, unless there was some type of plot device we've been missing.

The only captain I think who has a chance of winning against his Espada is Kyouraku honestly and chances are it won't be easy(he even said so himself).

kkck
December 20, 2008, 01:13 PM
Yeah Halibel probably has the most "mask" left of all the arrancars we've seen so far. And technically, part of it isn't really a mask, but part of her torso lol :p An oddity to say the least >.>

I agree Hitsugaya won't win on his own. It'd be a story killer for Halibel to lose to Hitsugaya alone, unless there was some type of plot device we've been missing.

The only captain I think who has a chance of winning against his Espada is Kyouraku honestly and chances are it won't be easy(he even said so himself).

I cant see itsu winning either. Personaly I think that hitsus place will be taken by ukitake, the other white haired captain. I know thats completely illogical but for some reason kubo apparently does stuff like that lol.

Aonsaithya
December 20, 2008, 02:09 PM
Also Guys you just posted spoilers outside of the spoiler thread. The mods don't usually come in here but that doesn't change the fact that people who don't want to see the spoilers really would rather not be spoiled.


The chapter came out and that was Halibel basically slashing Hitsugaya's Bankai.

Not to split hairs or anything, but technically it wasn't a spoiler anymore as the whole chapter had already come out :D

Forever_Melody
December 20, 2008, 06:26 PM
Yeah the chapter had just come out though and there is a rule saying that all discussion regarding a newly released chapter should be conducted in said chapter's discussion thread until the Monday after its release.

Aonsaithya
December 20, 2008, 07:00 PM
Meh, my bad then :P
Also regarding topic, my money's on Halibel.

Forever_Melody
December 20, 2008, 07:54 PM
Yeah Halibel's win seems more or less agreed upon by the community. The question is how well will Hitsugaya fare against her before going down? I think at the very least he'll get her to release because it'd be a bit of a letdown if the captain didn't even have the power to force her to go all out.

Aonsaithya
December 20, 2008, 08:33 PM
Yeah Halibel's win seems more or less agreed upon by the community. The question is how well will Hitsugaya fare against her before going down? I think at the very least he'll get her to release because it'd be a bit of a letdown if the captain didn't even have the power to force her to go all out.

Sure it'd be a let-down, but that's what Hitsugaya is all about!
Bankai-Ichigo with mask could barely scratch (or could he? I don't remember) Ulquiorra the 4th Hitsugaya lacks the mask and Halibel is supposedly stronger than emoboi.

Forever_Melody
December 20, 2008, 10:39 PM
True enough, but your assumption is somewhat flawed in the sense that no other Captain of the Gotei 13 has a hollow mask and therefore none of them should stand a chance of even scratching a top 3 Espada.

The hollow mask is there as a boost. If your innate abilities are already high enough, you can probably best even the guy with the hollow mask(as shown as to why Ulquiorra beat Ichigo before). Therefore, stronger captains should still best Ichigo even if they don't have a mask(ex: Kyouraku or Yamamoto).

Well, we shall see what'll happen. I hope(note I said ''hope'' and not ''expect'') Hitsugaya to gain some type of cool battle after the numerous times he's been the enemy's punching bag. I mostly want to see Hyourinmaru's power though. I want it to prove to me it's worthy of that "strongest ice element Zanpakutou" title it has >.>

Shaunlim
December 20, 2008, 11:24 PM
You merely stated assumptions.
How do you know Kubo-san doesn't kill good guys?LOL.

Sure,Hitsugaya took a good hit.I'm sure Kubo-san would leave lying around to say a few more words before passing out.

Check the last few hundred chapters or so. No good guys ever die. Regardless on what state they are on. You could get slashed, stabbed and all but yet survive later on if you are the good guy in Bleach.

Aonsaithya
December 21, 2008, 08:34 AM
True enough, but your assumption is somewhat flawed in the sense that no other Captain of the Gotei 13 has a hollow mask and therefore none of them should stand a chance of even scratching a top 3 Espada.

The hollow mask is there as a boost. If your innate abilities are already high enough, you can probably best even the guy with the hollow mask(as shown as to why Ulquiorra beat Ichigo before). Therefore, stronger captains should still best Ichigo even if they don't have a mask(ex: Kyouraku or Yamamoto).

Well, we shall see what'll happen. I hope(note I said ''hope'' and not ''expect'') Hitsugaya to gain some type of cool battle after the numerous times he's been the enemy's punching bag. I mostly want to see Hyourinmaru's power though. I want it to prove to me it's worthy of that "strongest ice element Zanpakutou" title it has >.>

True, but I only spoke of Hitsugaya. I can imagine Kyouraku and Yamamoto maybe cutting the 2nd and the 1st Espada, but Hitsugaya, on the other hand, is implied to be rather weak in comparison to the strongest captains.

Well, time will tell. Next chapter is probably Ichigo vs. Ulquiorra.
It's going to take a looong time until the Espada go down, as the 6th and 5th Espada had their backstories shown, spanning about two chapters each. It's likely that Ulquiorra, the first Espada shown and Ichigo's personal nemesis, will have one too.
http://fc24.deviantart.com/fs20/f/2007/294/0/a/Ulquiorra__The_Origin_by_tarkheki.jpg

Raizen
December 21, 2008, 01:48 PM
Hitsu definitely pales in comparison to monster captains like uki, shunsui, and yama. Still I am hoping that he pulls something out and at least make us respect him. Like him sealing hyorinmaru and now finally releasing its full power

Eddy01741
December 21, 2008, 05:16 PM
Hitsu definitely pales in comparison to monster captains like uki, shunsui, and yama. Still I am hoping that he pulls something out and at least make us respect him. Like him sealing hyorinmaru and now finally releasing its full power
My opinion is the same. I want to see him do something awesome, but nothing too farfetched (like winning).

BeerLobster
December 21, 2008, 10:28 PM
Check the last few hundred chapters or so. No good guys ever die. Regardless on what state they are on. You could get slashed, stabbed and all but yet survive later on if you are the good guy in Bleach.

That remains to be seen.

But I didn't meant they were going to get killed,just defeated.
Hitsugaya managed to get hit despite releasing his Bankai state.Halibel was merely using her sword.

This fight doesn't look good.

Onomatopoeia
December 22, 2008, 12:44 AM
Hey gai's I have an inkling feeling that Hitsugaya is going to lose, anyone with me???

:turtle

studiokid
December 22, 2008, 12:53 AM
That remains to be seen.

But I didn't meant they were going to get killed,just defeated.
Hitsugaya managed to get hit despite releasing his Bankai state.Halibel was merely using her sword.

This fight doesn't look good.

Where does it show that Hitsu got hit, from what i saw it was a slash which could have been blocked, there was no blood on her sword either and from starks reply on the next page it most likely didn't hit... but iI could be wrong.

Aonsaithya
December 22, 2008, 07:15 AM
Where does it show that Hitsu got hit, from what i saw it was a slash which could have been blocked, there was no blood on her sword either and from starks reply on the next page it most likely didn't hit... but iI could be wrong.

The slash looked very powerful, Hitsgaya was apparently falling backwards a little, and there was broken ice all around.
We did not see Halibel's sword after the attack if I'm not mistaken.

Forever_Melody
December 22, 2008, 07:26 AM
Well we're going to have to wait until the next time to see how much damage that slash did. Perhaps it was major, perhaps it was minor or perhaps it was blocked somehow with Hitsugaya's Bankai(hence the broken ice all around).

I also find Stark's reply a bit odd, how he loks at the shattered ice THEN says "you guys are strong". He put an "s" there, meaning he wasn't only referring to Kyouraku, but could he have been talking about Hitsugaya(considering he was looking that way before)? :blink

And yes, I think most of us agree at this point that Hitsugaya is going to lose, we're just hoping he does it in a nice way lol :p

Aonsaithya
December 22, 2008, 07:47 AM
Well we're going to have to wait until the next time to see how much damage that slash did. Perhaps it was major, perhaps it was minor or perhaps it was blocked somehow with Hitsugaya's Bankai(hence the broken ice all around).

I also find Stark's reply a bit odd, how he loks at the shattered ice THEN says "you guys are strong". He put an "s" there, meaning he wasn't only referring to Kyouraku, but could he have been talking about Hitsugaya(considering he was looking that way before)? :blink

And yes, I think most of us agree at this point that Hitsugaya is going to lose, we're just hoping he does it in a nice way lol :p

I almost commented on the plural in Stark's reply, then began wondering whether he means Kyoraku and Hitsugaya, Kyoraku and Yamamoto, or the three of them...Saying that about Hitsugaya after Halibel apparently kicks his ass would be nasty :<

As Yumichika would say, "I'd lose beautifully" :D

Forever_Melody
December 22, 2008, 06:33 PM
Well idk, I mean, just because he's losing doens't mean he's weak. You could put Rukia too and she'd be losing, but you agree there is a difference in level between Rukia and Hitsugaya. Despite losing, perhaps Stark saw that Hitsugaya and the other captains were strong enough to pose a certain threat to the Espada and actually make them fight properly rather than sit on their butts.

Raizen
December 23, 2008, 06:36 PM
Yeah, stark's comment may foreshadow the fact that hitsu really is not as weak as most make it

Eddy01741
December 24, 2008, 11:42 AM
Let's hope so (well, at least that he's not THAT weak). If hitsugaya just get's halibel to release, I think that's proof enough that he's pretty powerful, although even that is a tough feat. Ichigo couldn't even get Ulquiorra to draw his sword much less release when he fought him in HM for the first time, and that was with bankai and the mask. SImilarly, he couldn't get Grimmjow to release when he wasn't using the mask.

Forever_Melody
December 24, 2008, 02:47 PM
Well it obviously won't be easy, but it depends on the character.

Byakuya only used one Shunpo move and that was enough to convince Zomari he needed to release. He didn't show any great feats of power that would force Zomari to released.

Aeronierro release just to show Rukia his power. He had the upper hand before yet still released. This is a good example of how releasing is just the arrancar's choice.

An arrancar's decision to release is his/her own. It does not have to be a "I need more power so I release!" type of situation. Maybe Halibel will release because she feels it would be better, not because Hitsugaya forced her to go released.

Eddy01741
December 24, 2008, 03:50 PM
True, true, but I'm just getting a feeling that she won't release till she needs to, doesn't seem like her character.

Anyhow, i hope hitsugaya still gets a fair share of fighting.

Forever_Melody
December 24, 2008, 04:25 PM
Agreed, Halibel seems to be a smart fighter and won't go recklessly into Resurecion unless she sees the need. I'm just saying that comparing Halibel's Resurecion chances with other characters isn't necessarily the best example since it depends. Ulquiorra only got his sword out because he wanted to finish Ichigo off quickly, not because he necessarily needs to.

Anyways, I doubt Kubo would make Hitsugaya lose that easily. He'll probably have a decent fight before Halibel makes a win. I mean, despite his lack of strength and losing streak, Hitsugaya still IS Bleach's most popular character.

Raizen
December 25, 2008, 02:37 PM
Agreed, Halibel seems to be a smart fighter and won't go recklessly into Resurecion unless she sees the need. I'm just saying that comparing Halibel's Resurecion chances with other characters isn't necessarily the best example since it depends. Ulquiorra only got his sword out because he wanted to finish Ichigo off quickly, not because he necessarily needs to.

Anyways, I doubt Kubo would make Hitsugaya lose that easily. He'll probably have a decent fight before Halibel makes a win. I mean, despite his lack of strength and losing streak, Hitsugaya still IS Bleach's most popular character.
Halibel not only seems like a smart fighter but one who is extremely confident. She said she don't expect hitsu to see her true power. Would be cool for hitsu to fight and gain her respect and then to honor him she releases and her true power quickly overwhelms him

Forever_Melody
December 25, 2008, 03:46 PM
Actually, she said she hadn't shown her the extent of her powers just yet, which means she probably expects him to make her use her powers. She hadn't actually commented on Hitsugaya's ability to make her use all her powers or not.

Eddy01741
December 25, 2008, 08:38 PM
Halibel not only seems like a smart fighter but one who is extremely confident. She said she don't expect hitsu to see her true power. Would be cool for hitsu to fight and gain her respect and then to honor him she releases and her true power quickly overwhelms him
Hmm, that last line reminds me of what Komamura did against Pou.

Anyways, that would be nice, if hitsu was just strong enough to get Halibel to release, but hen gets owned by the release.

badluckartist
December 26, 2008, 12:34 AM
I like Hitsu, but the fight would have to take place in Antarctica for him to have any chance whatsoever.

Aonsaithya
December 26, 2008, 01:43 AM
I like Hitsu, but the fight would have to take place in Antarctica for him to have any chance whatsoever.

...Pluto! :D
I'll go rabidly nuts if Kubo lets Hitsu force Halibel to release, just because it would mean that bankai-Hitsugaya is FAR stronger than vizard-bankai-Ichigo (big FAR since there's the mask, be it just a stats boot, it should be HUGE, and also bare scratched won't force anyone to release).
If Halibel deliberately releases, with an excuse like "Well, you're a captain so I'll be cool and release so you won't look so weak when I rip you apart", I'm fine with it.

Seasons greetings!

Eddy01741
December 26, 2008, 03:02 PM
Yeh, I'd be fine with an honorable release, like "you fought your best, so let me show you my true power before I kill you" or something like that.

Forever_Melody
December 26, 2008, 06:19 PM
Well it depends on Halibel sees it. Maybe she wouldn't need to release to defeat Hitsugaya, but she'd have a harder time beating him without the release(i.e. perhaps she'd actually sustain some notable damage in the process) hence maybe she'd decide to release to save herself the trouble.

Or maybe Halibel could release for the sake of showing Hitsugaya her true power, as she commented before on not showing him the extent of her powers just yet, which seems to imply that she will show him the extent of her powers.

Yans86
December 26, 2008, 06:34 PM
It would be fun if Halibel release,and then everybody turn lookimg at her sayin shit....BOOm,Hitsu down,another couple of Captain goes down to ,and someone saying...SHIT she is only number 3,we are fucked up!!!

Forever_Melody
December 26, 2008, 06:57 PM
Well Aizen(who until further notice of the contrary in the manga) is a shinigami and can submit all the Espada, therefore it wouldn't be out of the question for the highest tier of shinigamis such as Yamamoto, Kyouraku and Ukitake to be able to keep up and maybe even defeat the top 3 Espada. Granted, Aizen is really really really strong, but he remains a shinigami bounded by shinigami fighting, which leaves room for a chance for the shinigami.

And also check the irony. People think that maybe some Espadas are Vasto Lorde and according to the manga, the Vasto Lorde are stronger than a shinigami captain so an arrancar Vasto Lorde should be leagues stronger no? Well, who was the one who hyped the Vasto Lorde's strength as to being better than a captain? Hitsugaya!!

Now, how credible is Hitsugaya's word though? THAT is the question.
- Has Hitsugaya ever SEEN a Vasto Lorde fight?
- Has he even SEEN all the shinigami captains of the Gotei 13 to make this assumption that Vasto Lorde are stronger than them? He was certainly wrong about Aizen no?
- Hitsugaya even plain states that Soul Society has veyr very few info on the Vasto Lordes other than they live deep within Hueco Mundo.

Eddy01741
December 28, 2008, 12:31 PM
Well I think we can all agree that the vasto lorde are most likely stronger than Hitsugaya himself, who may have been using himself as a standard for shinigami captains.

Forever_Melody
December 28, 2008, 04:13 PM
But has Hitsugaya ever met a Vasto Lorde to gauge that they are stronger than him? I mean, he says so himself SS has very little data on them which means he himself probably has even less, much less likely a chance of having met and faced one.

IMO, it sounds more like a "let's assume the worst case scenario" thing.

After all, didn't you see how ominous the Shinigami acted after their first emeting with the arrancar? They acted at how the arrancar were so strong and how they might've not been able to win. And yet, what happens after? Vice-captains are easily handling Barragan's Fraccion with their Shikai alone.

Raizen
December 29, 2008, 10:46 PM
We can trust hitsugaya's words as much as we can trust noitora saying he is the strongest