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View Full Version : Canon Sosuke Aizen vs Shigekuni Yamamoto Genryusai



shadowfox1
October 28, 2008, 09:57 AM
Bankai full power both of them. No illusion from Aizen= old man yamma pwning Aizen....:p

~Joshua~
October 30, 2008, 01:05 PM
If there is no illusion, there isn't a chance I see Aizen having.

ryanzokuken
October 30, 2008, 03:58 PM
why the f would there be no illusion? that's Aizen's zanpakuto.


i'm pretty sure his bankai will only amplify that power. it will only make it worse.

Aizen is teh pwnage.
Yama is teh overhyped.

Onomatopoeia
October 30, 2008, 04:10 PM
Yama just SHikai's EVERYTHING.

He doesn't need to aim he just fire's it all.

Bankai's are out of the battle for obvious reasons.

Aikidoka
October 30, 2008, 06:58 PM
Going from what we saw already, I'd say Aizen would win. He's really resourceful (seen when he uses his zanpakutou ability creatively against Komamura), and even without illusions he should take down Yamamoto through sheer intelligence. Yamamoto seems more of a leader in heart than in mind. All we've seen is his short temper and his tendency to attack without a particular strategy in mind (the fire wall). He's a straightforward person, but that makes him vulnerable to Aizen's trickery.

Eddy01741
October 30, 2008, 07:10 PM
in shonen mangas I have read, very often the figurehead leader dies before the protagonist beats the antagonist (so in terms of say... naruto, sandaime hokage already died while the fight against the "bad guys" rages on.)

Darek Khort
October 31, 2008, 01:52 AM
Aizen wins.
Yama has the greatest fire zan, sure. But Aizen has the most powerful ability we've seen. Illusions you can't avoid.

Think about it. Aizen could make the illusion that he is on fire when he could be in a totally different place watching Yama get exhausted fighting an illusion.

Therefore Aizen wins. :<

Only way Yama could win is if Aizen makes a stupid mistake like being overconfident and actually appearing in-person before Yama and Yama deciding to do a quick kill and just go bankai and burn the entire Earth or something.

~Joshua~
October 31, 2008, 06:30 AM
If Aizen isn't even attempting to get out of Yamamoto's fire shield. I fail to see him winning if he can't get out of that.

Darek Khort
October 31, 2008, 07:37 AM
Aizen isn't attempting to get out of the fire shield cause he doesn't care about it. At least that's what I believe.
It's like when you are walking in the middle of the road. If there are no cars or if there is only one car at a far-away distance chances are you won't need to race across the road to avoid a car. You just walk.

I believe Aizen doesn't care about the fire. Thus he just stands there watching. Imagining everyone's shocked faces when he reveals yet another twist.

shadowfox1
October 31, 2008, 07:40 AM
Going from what we saw already, I'd say Aizen would win. He's really resourceful (seen when he uses his zanpakutou ability creatively against Komamura), and even without illusions he should take down Yamamoto through sheer intelligence. Yamamoto seems more of a leader in heart than in mind. All we've seen is his short temper and his tendency to attack without a particular strategy in mind (the fire wall). He's a straightforward person, but that makes him vulnerable to Aizen's trickery.

We all know how intellingent and cunning Aizen really is. But Yamma is not the leader and strongest captain inSS for no reason now. He does not have a short temper. the only reason he shot that "Fortress Blaze" was because, he wanted his captains to havea fair chance against the Espada. If Aizen and the 2 other cap. had interfered they would have lost. So by doing that they all faught their own opponents on par. Also lets say that they fight no illusion. Yamma would pwn him in the longrun.

~Joshua~
October 31, 2008, 12:54 PM
I don't see why Aizen's shikai was taken out...That's putting a huge handicap on him. Witout it, all he has is destructive arts. However, Aizen can't use his shikai is no one is looking at him can he?

Onomatopoeia
October 31, 2008, 01:42 PM
Honestly who gives a fuck about illusions, thats only useful if the target in question has to attack him directly, an attack that can attack a big amount of space at a time doesn't need to aim they just spam it all over the place.

Yama has the AOE attack of Bleach.

ryanzokuken
October 31, 2008, 01:55 PM
yea but...it's also just...fire....

not to cross manga lines or imply that same rules apply, (which means i understand that they're different and i don't wanna hear shit about how they're different and don't match. i know. i'm playing.) but if i've learned anything at all from Naruto, it's that fire doesn't do shit. :p countless ninja have been seen being nailed by fire jutsus or engulfed in the flames from one, and they always end up fine.

anyways, Naruto aside (i used to enjoy it, but i find that it really sucks my junk this past year O_O), fire, and elemental power in general, usually isn't very formiddable in anime/manga and even video games. it's always dwarfed by pure energy or physical, kinetic, harmful and destructive abilities, and non-elemental magics (GIGANTASAUR Final Fantasy fan :p).

i was never impressed with Yama from his shikai reveal onward. he's hyped up and talked about as being Godly, and i agree, he probably his insanely powerful and a hell of an experienced, skilled fighter, but his zanpakuto just seems...like not that big of a deal to me. none of the elemental stuff does.

i dunno, we'll see. when he actually messes someone up with it, i'll fall in line and admit having been an idiot.

gigantor21
October 31, 2008, 08:25 PM
I'm going to ignore their Bankai. We can't argue with those when we don't know what they are.

The main sticking point is whether or not Yama can circumvent the illusions. Shinji showed us it might be possible, but that was back when he was just a VC. Also, Aizen never said he could manipulate ones spiritual sensors. Just the five senses. Maybe that hole is the loophole Yama could exploit, as Aizen has mostly used his Shikai to hide his actual position in battle.

Without a way around KS, though, it's Aizen for sure (again, without Bankai).

Onomatopoeia
October 31, 2008, 08:32 PM
@Gigantor: Does it really matter if Aizen uses Illusions? Yammato just creates a literal Fire Barrier around himself and then expands outwards, Illusion or no Aizen's getting hit. Then Yammato just AOE's the place until he gets lucky. Of course this is all going by the fact that they're not fighting in a place that is like infinite length or something.

@Rya: Remember how Ice works in the Bleachverse?

gigantor21
October 31, 2008, 08:36 PM
^ It doesn't have to be infinite length or anything. Especially if they're fighting in the air.

Also, since he can cast the illusions long range, who's to say he'd even be there? He could just make a fake to test the range of Yama's powers, and come up with a strategy in the meantime.

ryanzokuken
October 31, 2008, 09:33 PM
@Rya: Remember how Ice works in the Bleachverse?

yea, it sucks and is broken out of as easily as a sand castle.

Onomatopoeia
November 01, 2008, 10:58 AM
^ It doesn't have to be infinite length or anything. Especially if they're fighting in the air.

Also, since he can cast the illusions long range, who's to say he'd even be there? He could just make a fake to test the range of Yama's powers, and come up with a strategy in the meantime.

Same's true for Yama and you know it. And Aizen will constantly be moving if Yama decides to attack continuously.
@Rya: Remember why they can break out of Ice?

~Joshua~
November 01, 2008, 07:57 PM
What's with the ice? Is that about Hitsugaya...?

His flames seem to come constantly so I see a continuous attack from Yama.

hajialibaig
November 03, 2008, 11:21 AM
I'll go with Yamamoto.. cause if Aizen > Yamamoto then why didn't he take over SS when he had the chance? I guess he was scared of the royal guard and opted to gather more power instead (i.e. the VLs)

But that's mere speculation, so until concrete proof comes out, I'll go with Yama :D

PS: Is it me, or does Aizen have the most HAXed zanpaktu ever

~Joshua~
November 03, 2008, 08:59 PM
Lol. Being able to catch someone in an illusion by just them looking at you when they release their zanpakuto does seem a little cheap, but hey what can you do?

Flight-47
November 04, 2008, 07:20 PM
Genryuusai took on two high level Captains, and received no wounds during the battle. His reiatsu alone almost killed a Vice Captain. We've never seen reiatsu force a person into almost passing out before or after what Genryuusai did.

He's thousands of years old, and far more experienced. According to the information from the official data book, he's very intelligent, and skilled at Kidou. All he's lacking is stamina, and at his age that's understandable.


Aizen proved to us that his level of Kidou isn't at it's best, as the Black Coffin he used on Komamura was only executed 1/3 of it's fullest potential. He has shown however that he is powerful, as he manage to take down a Captain with one single sword slash, despite illusions or not. He has high enough reiatsu to bring Grimmjow to his knees.



Experience makes all the difference, and Genryuusai has more of it. He's wiser, and most likely more skilled due to experience. If it was a head to head battle, illusions or not, Genryuusai would crush Aizen.

But that won't happen, because Ichigo has to defeat Aizen, just like all other predictable Shounen.

ryanzokuken
November 04, 2008, 11:51 PM
crush?

i don't think Yama would win at all, but i'm willing to consider the idea. it's possible.

but crush?

nobody can or will CRUSH Aizen.

~Joshua~
November 05, 2008, 07:09 AM
Yeah, no one has shown enough potential to CRUSH Aizen.

Flight-47
November 05, 2008, 07:43 AM
Yes. Ichigo will 'Crush' Aizen.

By that, I mean defeat. Not completely over power, just defeat in general.

Genryuusai obviously has the potential, we've seen it quite a few times.
He even manage to imprison Aizen behind a wall of flames using only his Shikai.
Genryuusai is definitely the man for the job, but his Espada will weaken him to the point where Aizen won't have to do much to win.

Besides, We haven't seen Urahara in action against someone strong. Nor have we seen the Vaizards potential... So, yeah, I'm sure there are others out there who can stop Aizen.

Lets not even talk about the Royal Guard.

~Joshua~
November 05, 2008, 11:28 AM
If there are others out there that have the potential to stop Aizen, they sure are doing a good job of hiding out. The Espada have commenced with their own fights so I don't see Yamamoto losing to any one of them.

shadowfox1
November 06, 2008, 10:23 AM
Well it seems lke Aizen is not the best really. As we all know who's army has been wiped out leaving 3 left? While Yammamoto has all his captains(Excluding Aizen, Tousen, and Gin), ichigo and urahara, and the VFaizards at his disposal. So I would say yamma would beat Aizen in no time. Also in a fight yamma would RAPE Aizen.

~Joshua~
November 06, 2008, 11:23 AM
I wouldn't say rape. Although there isn't any proof to show that he couldn't beat Aizen, and right now, he's the only one with enough hype and potential to fight him and possibly win.

emanresu
December 07, 2008, 09:51 PM
Aizen can't escape Yamamoto's shikai. Bankai = Aizen dead.

Onomatopoeia
December 07, 2008, 10:46 PM
Aizen can't escape Yamamoto's shikai. Bankai = Aizen dead.

Pretty much, AOE attacks are the bane of an Illusion ability.

kkck
December 07, 2008, 11:06 PM
Aizen can't escape Yamamoto's shikai. Bankai = Aizen dead.

How do you know he cant scape though? For what has been shown Aizen isnt in the least bit concerned about being trap. Of course he is counting on his espada, but on the other hand why hasnt he even tried to scape such a position? For what has been seen, it is like aizen finds it convenient to be in there. Unfortunately we cant be sure if aizen is uncapable of scaping until he actually tries.

To be honest I find it actually hard that yamamoto is stronger than aizen. Aizen has a youth advantage also, which cant hurt. Yamamoto clearly has more experience but on the other hand it might nor be so usefull overall againts aizen since aizen has probably have his fair share of fights. Also, if yamamoto is unable to scape the absolute hypnosis hax he is screwed. Not to mention that we havent seen aizens bankai, which could be anything.

ryanzokuken
December 08, 2008, 09:30 AM
Aizen isn't all just illusions and shikai, though.

people seem to focus on his broken shikai and forget that he's a truly powerful fighter as well. stopping Renji and Komamura's attacks with his bare hand, and even stopping Ichigo's bankai attack with a single finger.

one-hit-KO'ing everyone he's "fought" so far.

super high and powerful reiatsu.

proficient in kido (not necessarily a master, but still damn good.)

and he's still got a bankai in his pocket.

Forever_Melody
December 08, 2008, 09:41 AM
Well we haven't seen the full scope of neither of them yet.

Both of them are hinted at being extremely strong so I'd wait and see more ^^

I'd be one hell of a fight though.

Onomatopoeia
December 08, 2008, 05:14 PM
Aizen isn't all just illusions and shikai, though.

people seem to focus on his broken shikai and forget that he's a truly powerful fighter as well. stopping Renji and Komamura's attacks with his bare hand, and even stopping Ichigo's bankai attack with a single finger.

one-hit-KO'ing everyone he's "fought" so far.

super high and powerful reiatsu.

proficient in kido (not necessarily a master, but still damn good.)

and he's still got a bankai in his pocket.

A lot of that can be said about Captain Yama.

In fact the reason were focusing on his Shikai is because that would be the only thing that could give him an advantage but Yamamato is pretty well made to fight Aizen's Shikai. In fact we now know Yamamato can keep the fire going while doing other things. Thats a definte advantage for Yama.

Yans86
December 08, 2008, 05:48 PM
Aizen bankai???I guess make the illusion reality,if u think u get damaged by the illusion.....u get damaged for real..problem is that illusion are done by AIzen so no way for u to escape auh auhaua h

BeerLobster
December 14, 2008, 02:15 AM
Genryuusai took on two high level Captains, and received no wounds during the battle. His reiatsu alone almost killed a Vice Captain. We've never seen reiatsu force a person into almost passing out before or after what Genryuusai did.
I'm loling pretty hard here.His stare did not almost caused a lieutenant to die.But Aizen sure gave Grimmjow the look.:p!



He's thousands of years old, and far more experienced. According to the information from the official data book, he's very intelligent, and skilled at Kidou. All he's lacking is stamina, and at his age that's understandable.
And so is Aizen.Except he isn't a few thousand years old.



Aizen proved to us that his level of Kidou isn't at it's best, as the Black Coffin he used on Komamura was only executed 1/3 of it's fullest potential. He has shown however that he is powerful, as he manage to take down a Captain with one single sword slash, despite illusions or not. He has high enough reiatsu to bring Grimmjow to his knees.

Experience makes all the difference, and Genryuusai has more of it. He's wiser, and most likely more skilled due to experience. If it was a head to head battle, illusions or not, Genryuusai would crush Aizen.

But that won't happen, because Ichigo has to defeat Aizen, just like all other predictable Shounen.
Aizen didn't even chant and it brought a Captain to his knees?
Experience makes all the difference?And what of Ichigo?He has no experience and still owns all the bad asses along the way.

Ichigo still has a long way to go before reaching Aizen.
An even longer road to defeating him.

Rainl
December 16, 2008, 05:25 AM
people seem to focus on his broken shikai and forget that he's a truly powerful fighter as well. stopping Renji and Komamura's attacks with his bare hand/

Renji is merely a VC and Komamura is low-tier at best, although not saying it's not impressive at all. Yama-ji also stopped Allon with his bare hand, who we all know has exceedingly brute strength.



and even stopping Ichigo's bankai attack with a single finger.

Also include the fact that this same Ichigo had just gotten out of a fight with Byakuya that left him completely unconscious and also shattered his bones. He was hardly ready.


-hit-KO'ing everyone he's "fought" so far.

But who has he "fought" exactly worth mentioning? He always seems to dodge the higher-tier: Unohana, Shinji, Urahara, and Tessai.

Although granted he's extremely smart in the sense that he knows how to pick his fights.

We can't say the same for Yama-ji considering he did fight "two" higher-tiers at the exact same time and left the fight unscathed or without any visible sign of sweat.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/172/08-09/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/172/12/

Those provide information that shows Yama-ji is even a league beyond the higher-tier characters. Aizen is most likely there, but he hasn't actually fought anyone at such a level.


super high and powerful reiatsu.

I agree. Him dropping Grimmjow with merely spiritual pressure was extremely impressive, which is one of the only reasons why I consider this a hard fight to decide upon.



I'm loling pretty hard here.His stare did not almost caused a lieutenant to die.But Aizen sure gave Grimmjow the look.:p!


No. If Nanao had been under that gaze any longer, she would have most certainly died, considering the severity of her sweat and how she was foaming at the mouth. We haven't seen someone suffer so much under spiritual pressure to date.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/155/06/

Aizen, merely made Grimmjow fall on his knees, but he was able to regain footing only but a few moments later. Granted we also know that Nanao isn't comparable to Grimmjow, but it's still a fact that Nanao suffered "much" worse.


didn't even chant and it brought a Captain to his knees?

That captain was Komamura, and it was a level 90 kidou. Although not saying Aizen is strong.


Experience makes all the difference?And what of Ichigo?He has no experience and still owns all the bad asses along the way.

Umm, you do realize Ichigo is the "main protagonist", meaning his potential and skill growth multiplies at a much faster rate than any other character? The main character can hardly ever be used a measuring stick.

Akagami.Shanks
December 16, 2008, 11:12 AM
Aside from his Shikai technique ( illusion), Aizen is strong too. he could use the black coffin technique: Kido of the 90th level without saying the whole spell, He can also use forbidden techniques, like we saw in the mini arc. Somebody mentioned that Yamaji has a huge reatsu, since he made a VC almost pass out. Aizen did the same with grimmjow, and knowing how strong grimmjoy is, we can dedicate how terrifying his reatsu is . He even mentioned that is when he was explaining how to activate the hogukyo, and that his reatsu is larger than the reatsu of two captains combined. One last thing, we should not forget that Aizen can use the Hollow powers too, and combined with his bankai, I don't see how anyone can win.
I always taught Aizen was stronger than all the espada combined. Knowing how some of them taught of a Shinigami ruling them, it would have been easy to team up against him and defeat him, but I really believe they truly understood the extent of his powers. Looking closly at the espada, the ones that respect Aizen the most are the top espada, from uloquira and up. My predictions are tha Aizen will beat everyone up and get the key from yamaji and go up to find the king. After that we will see the real fights between the captain of the 0 division and Aizen with his espada.

drakend
December 16, 2008, 01:12 PM
Aside from his Shikai technique ( illusion), Aizen is strong too. he could use the black coffin technique: Kido of the 90th level without saying the whole spell, He can also use forbidden techniques, like we saw in the mini arc. Somebody mentioned that Yamaji has a huge reatsu, since he made a VC almost pass out. Aizen did the same with grimmjow, and knowing how strong grimmjoy is, we can dedicate how terrifying his reatsu is .

Ok until now you're awake but...



He even mentioned that is when he was explaining how to activate the hogukyo, and that his reatsu is larger than the reatsu of two captains combined.

Here you're dreaming. He said that, in order to completely awaken the hougyoku (wtf is hogukyo? a new pokemon?), someone with twice the reiatsu of a captain is needed. He never said he has twice the reiatsu of a captain, otherwise the hougyoku's seal would be gone already!!!



One last thing, we should not forget that Aizen can use the Hollow powers too, and combined with his bankai, I don't see how anyone can win.

Uhm you're dreaming about the future here... perhaps you have the power to read the future: if that's so then you can start a work as a magician, you would become rich immediately! :D
We can only INFER that Aizen has hollow powers now, but there isn't even a single evidence of that in the manga. Remember that your dreams are your dreams, but reality is another thing dude!

Akagami.Shanks
December 16, 2008, 04:35 PM
Ok until now you're awake but...


Here you're dreaming. He said that, in order to completely awaken the hougyoku (wtf is hogukyo? a new pokemon?), someone with twice the reiatsu of a captain is needed. He never said he has twice the reiatsu of a captain, otherwise the hougyoku's seal would be gone already!!!


Uhm you're dreaming about the future here... perhaps you have the power to read the future: if that's so then you can start a work as a magician, you would become rich immediately! :D
We can only INFER that Aizen has hollow powers now, but there isn't even a single evidence of that in the manga. Remember that your dreams are your dreams, but reality is another thing dude!

I don't know if we're reading the same manga, or perhaps you're short sighted. but how the f hollows became arrancars? isn't it Aizen's doing? doesn't he need to awake for a short time the hougyoku to do so! maybe u should read this first to see how he does it, because u seem to miss it,
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/229/12-13/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/229/14/
so if can wake it up ,and since he said it needs a reatsu of someone higher than a captain class ( twice the reatsu captain in the animation version), use ur head and deduct. The writer doesn't have to write every detail for you to understand, maybe he should also show them going to poop and going to sleep for you to deduct that they do so.
Another thing, since you seem to not have much of a brain, why did Aizen conduct hollowfication on Chinji and company, for mere amusement? why was he looking for the hougyoku, to add it to his collection? why did he even betray Soul society? isn't to find power, isn't it to break the power gap between shinigami and hollows to get to the king, so if you think that Aizen does not have hollow powers, you better get some coloring books and start coloring, reading manga is a little too hard fo you! you're just wasting you time and our time to explain easy concepts to you!
But you saved the best for last when u said there isn't a single evidence for him having hollow powers! not because we have not seen him use it that he does not have it, or perhaps he should release his bankai for you to know he does actually have one!

drakend
December 16, 2008, 05:26 PM
I don't know if we're reading the same manga, or perhaps you're short sighted. but how the f hollows became arrancars? isn't it Aizen's doing? doesn't he need to awake for a short time the hougyoku to do so! maybe u should read this first to see how he does it, because u seem to miss it,
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/229/12-13/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/229/14/
so if can wake it up ,and since he said it needs a reatsu of someone higher than a captain class ( twice the reatsu captain in the animation version),

LOL you fail to understand one simple fact: it all depends about who you take as an example of captain class. If you take Hitsugaya then it's obvious there are some captains with twice the reiatsu, if you take Yamamoto then almost nobody has his level of reiatsu. Besides having huge quantities of reiatsu doesn't mean being automagically powerful accordingly: it's quite an easy concept to understand... :D
The fact Aizen has a reiatsu higher than a captain class shinigami DOES NOT PROVE he's an hybrid, but only that he's a very strong shinigami. So don't even try to make YOUR OWN speculation a fact dude!



use ur head and deduct.

Think about yours... this is called making speculation, while a DEDUCTION is based on an undebatable proof of something, and it must be shown in the manga to be canon.



The writer doesn't have to write every detail for you to understand, maybe he should also show them going to poop and going to sleep for you to deduct that they do so.

Yes it must be shown CLEARLY in the manga to be considered evidence: sorry dude it has always been like this and it will always be... anyway you're free to think it's evidence in your dreamland, but don't except to come here and making others believing your speculation is a fact.



Another thing, since you seem to not have much of a brain, why did Aizen conduct hollowfication on Chinji and company, for mere amusement?

Uhm he was EXPERIMENTING... and the vaizards were a failure from Aizen's POV: in fact he wanted to kill them and switched to hybridizing hollows instead.



why was he looking for the hougyoku, to add it to his collection? why did he even betray Soul society? isn't to find power, isn't it to break the power gap between shinigami and hollows to get to the king, so if you think that Aizen does not have hollow powers, you better get some coloring books and start coloring, reading manga is a little too hard fo you! you're just wasting you time and our time to explain easy concepts to you!

Yeah yeah what you like... I don't even bother quoting your things in detail, but the main fact is: there isn't a single EVIDENCE of Aizen being an hybrid now. It's all your speculation because there is no evidence. I want to help you a bit:



deduction
something that is inferred (deduced or entailed or implied); "his resignation had political implications"




speculation
a hypothesis that has been formed by speculating or conjecturing (usually with little hard evidence); "speculations about the outcome of the election"; "he dismissed it as mere conjecture"




But you saved the best for last when u said there isn't a single evidence for him having hollow powers! not because we have not seen him use it that he does not have it, or perhaps he should release his bankai for you to know he does actually have one!
LOL we know FOR SURE that Aizen has bankai because the only one who became captain without bankai is Kenpachi, so it's obvious all of the others have bankai. This is what is called DEDUCTION, not just some theory-wannabe speculation based on a Aizen's statement about him having a reiatsu higher than a captain... :D

Cykai
December 16, 2008, 11:39 PM
No. If Nanao had been under that gaze any longer, she would have most certainly died, considering the severity of her sweat and how she was foaming at the mouth. We haven't seen someone suffer so much under spiritual pressure to date.

Aizen, merely made Grimmjow fall on his knees, but he was able to regain footing only but a few moments later. Granted we also know that Nanao isn't comparable to Grimmjow, but it's still a fact that Nanao suffered "much" worse.



are you comparing nanao to grimmjow? grimmjow is on ichigo level. nao nao not so much, of course she would take the pressure a lot worse than grimmjow did. she's A LOT weaker than GJ.

Aonsaithya
December 17, 2008, 12:50 AM
Just wondering, could Aizen have faked it when he's shown his insane strenght?
Say, blocked Ichigo's sword with his sword, yet make it look like finger? Prolly not, Ichigo has not seen his release.
However, dropping Grimmjow to his knees with reiatsu alone was pretty sick, but then again using his zanpakuto against his loyal Espada (though GJ is likely the least loyal of the lot) may be unlikely. Noitora and Ulquiorra at the very least are clearly aware of his shikai.

Rainl
December 17, 2008, 01:46 AM
are you comparing nanao to grimmjow? grimmjow is on ichigo level. nao nao not so much, of course she would take the pressure a lot worse than grimmjow did. she's A LOT weaker than GJ.

Umm, did you bother to read the rest of my paragraph where I specifically said that you can't compare Nanao to Grimmjow? And yes, I also stated Nanao suffered much worse, which is fact.

wooticus
December 17, 2008, 03:57 AM
it was superobvious that ichigo is the one to defeat aizen since he left soul society with the statement "even to me you were quite surprising for a human" or something like that. that's the prove for me that if aizen is underestimating anyone (i guess he won't underestimate yamamoto taht would be stupid) it is ichigo and for that aizen will die with the words

"i searched for power beyond the limits of a shinigami captain.. and i was beaten.. by a human.."

drakend
December 17, 2008, 05:11 AM
it was superobvious that ichigo is the one to defeat aizen since he left soul society with the statement "even to me you were quite surprising for a human" or something like that. that's the prove for me that if aizen is underestimating anyone (i guess he won't underestimate yamamoto taht would be stupid) it is ichigo and for that aizen will die with the words

"i searched for power beyond the limits of a shinigami captain.. and i was beaten.. by a human.."
Excuse me but if Aizen said he was surprised by Ichigo then why should he underestimate Ichigo? He even went to the extent of trapping Ichigo in HM to avoid his interferences during the battle in fake KT: this shows Aizen isn't understimating Ichigo at all... in fact multiple times it was shown Aizen is VERY interested in Ichigo.

~Joshua~
April 26, 2009, 03:14 PM
Excuse me but if Aizen said he was surprised by Ichigo then why should he underestimate Ichigo? He even went to the extent of trapping Ichigo in HM to avoid his interferences during the battle in fake KT: this shows Aizen isn't understimating Ichigo at all... in fact multiple times it was shown Aizen is VERY interested in Ichigo.

He may not be underestimating Ichigo but it doesn't mean that Ichigo is a threat. He is exactly as you say he is, interested in Ichigo.

THM Nindo
April 29, 2009, 08:19 AM
We still don't know their Bankai, but anyway, plot-wise, Aizen would win against Yamamoto.

The former student always kill his master in Shounen, that's a given.
So, Aizen will eventually win over Yamamoto. (We actually might even see his bankai!!)

~Joshua~
April 30, 2009, 08:58 PM
We still don't know their Bankai, but anyway, plot-wise, Aizen would win against Yamamoto.

The former student always kill his master in Shounen, that's a given.
So, Aizen will eventually win over Yamamoto. (We actually might even see his bankai!!)

If they do fight, no matter who wins, it's going to be one hell of a fight i'm going to enjoy from start to finish. :cool:

Doombot
April 30, 2009, 11:18 PM
If they do fight, no matter who wins, it's going to be one hell of a fight i'm going to enjoy from start to finish. :cool:

If it's just Shikai and we're not counting plot (Aizen would win instantly because of plot). Yama would murder Aizen.. Illusions? He'd just TURN EVERYTHING TO ASH.

Onomatopoeia
April 30, 2009, 11:20 PM
If it's just Shikai and we're not counting plot (Aizen would win instantly because of plot). Yama would murder Aizen.. Illusions? He'd just TURN EVERYTHING TO ASH.

And then Ulqui could get some more friends.

ryanzokuken
April 30, 2009, 11:56 PM
If it's just Shikai and we're not counting plot (Aizen would win instantly because of plot). Yama would murder Aizen.. Illusions? He'd just TURN EVERYTHING TO ASH.

that's what i think would be Yama's chance against the illusions. his zan has a massive area-of-effect trait to it, so illusions or not, if Aizen's anywhere in range, the flames can still get him.

although...he could always just show Yama a believable performance of himself being hit with the flame attack and dying and cause Yama to drop his gaurd.


also, just as a side question, i've always wondered about something.
Aizen's hypnosis allows him to control all five senses, including "feeling".
would reiatsu feeling/sensing fall under that? or could someone, despite everything else they're being forced to sense, still sense Aizen's reiatsu?

~Joshua~
May 01, 2009, 04:11 PM
also, just as a side question, i've always wondered about something.
Aizen's hypnosis allows him to control all five senses, including "feeling".
would reiatsu feeling/sensing fall under that? or could someone, despite everything else they're being forced to sense, still sense Aizen's reiatsu?

If Aizen has that much mastery over his shikai, which I highly believe he does, i'm sure that forcing victim's to sense false spiritual pressure is no object.

Raizen
May 07, 2009, 03:57 PM
I see aizen losing.
Again aizen said he already used his sword on all the captains so why not use that opportunity to take out old man yama and a huge obstacle. Maybe b/c he can't.
Now that he can't use shikai i don't see aizen winnning. Yama is a beast and his all direction attacks are inescapable. Add in some kido and aizen if f-ed

choke_a_beech
May 09, 2009, 02:43 AM
Yama's Bankai VS Aizen's Bankai

I would just love it! I'm counting on Yama to roast such chicken ass!

Raizen
May 11, 2009, 04:02 PM
i don;t think we should take bankai into consideration since we barely know the fuill extent of either of their shikais lol

Weapon_X
May 11, 2009, 04:28 PM
This fight would just be too awesome to see. man I really want this fight to occur in the manga :( but Kubo is just wasted a lot of time of shit fights like the Fraccions.

LOL this thread is funny. "Bankai full power" Haha, no knowledge about Bankai or hardly any knowledge about their normal power even at base level.

BUT it would be a stalemate I think.

-Ren Boy-
May 12, 2009, 01:19 PM
This fight would just be too awesome to see. man I really want this fight to occur in the manga :( but Kubo is just wasted a lot of time of shit fights like the Fraccions.
LOL this thread is funny. "Bankai full power" Haha, no knowledge about Bankai or hardly any knowledge about their normal power even at base level.

Very True
We Don't Know Anything
Just Azien Has The Ability To Stop Ichigos Bankai With His Finger Which Is Ironic Because It Is My Avatar:tem

Nah Too Hard To Decide BUT As Many Have Said It Would Be One Fight

Edit:I Have To Go With Aizen He Is So Beast
He Proclaims That He Has Hit The Wall With His Limits And We Have Seem More On-Screen Stuff Them Yamo (But Only Like 5 Minutes More LOL)

Raizen
May 13, 2009, 01:55 PM
Very True
We Don't Know Anything
Just Azien Has The Ability To Stop Ichigos Bankai With His Finger Which Is Ironic Because It Is My Avatar:tem

Nah Too Hard To Decide BUT As Many Have Said It Would Be One Fight

Edit:I Have To Go With Aizen He Is So Beast
He Proclaims That He Has Hit The Wall With His Limits And We Have Seem More On-Screen Stuff Them Yamo (But Only Like 5 Minutes More LOL)
Well to be fair to ichi, his power was like 5% of the original. He was completely wiped out from the byakuya battle. So aizen stopping that as impressive as some has stated

Weapon_X
May 13, 2009, 04:12 PM
Well to be fair to ichi, his power was like 5% of the original. He was completely wiped out from the byakuya battle. So aizen stopping that as impressive as some has stated

Erm, no?

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/167/13/ Look here. You can see blood on Ichigo and he stated himself that he is unable to stand.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/167/13/ And here, we see Orihime.We can guess that she HELAED him because there is no way he would have been even able to walk, let alone fight Aizen.

So Ichigo was fighting at full strength.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/174/01/ No blood or scratches. Face is clean. Able to move, appeared at quick speed to save Renji.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/174/14/ As you can see, Aizen has stopped his Bankai with just 1 finger whilst Ichigo is at full strength.

So Ichigo wasn't at 5% , he was at 100%.

Raizen
May 13, 2009, 06:19 PM
Erm, no?

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/167/13/ Look here. You can see blood on Ichigo and he stated himself that he is unable to stand.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/167/13/ And here, we see Orihime.We can guess that she HELAED him because there is no way he would have been even able to walk, let alone fight Aizen.

So Ichigo was fighting at full strength.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/174/01/ No blood or scratches. Face is clean. Able to move, appeared at quick speed to save Renji.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/174/14/ As you can see, Aizen has stopped his Bankai with just 1 finger whilst Ichigo is at full strength.

So Ichigo wasn't at 5% , he was at 100%.
Wrong
Ichi was never healed. That was just an assumption. He was dead tired. There was no time to heal or anything. We also saw byakuya clean, but it was evident that he was in no condition to fight, ichi was the same

OxKing033
May 13, 2009, 07:48 PM
Weapon X...wow! Good proof lol.

If we look at the databook, they're equal. Aizen is almost a ten in everything, while Yamamoto is a 10 in everything except Stamina which equals out to 560 each while Unohana is at 540 and with Shunsui at 530.

choke_a_beech
May 14, 2009, 05:28 AM
the fight would really come down to their bankais i think.

Weapon_X
May 14, 2009, 06:07 PM
Wrong
Ichi was never healed. That was just an assumption. He was dead tired. There was no time to heal or anything. We also saw byakuya clean, but it was evident that he was in no condition to fight, ichi was the same

If he was dead tired then why was he able to move, without any scratches or blood on his face, and still able to move at fast speed to face Aizen? Ichigo himself said he couldn't stand, he fell, then Orihime healed him. If she didn't heal him then he wouldn't even be able to stand let alone walk and run.

Raizen
May 18, 2009, 11:42 AM
If he was dead tired then why was he able to move, without any scratches or blood on his face, and still able to move at fast speed to face Aizen? Ichigo himself said he couldn't stand, he fell, then Orihime healed him. If she didn't heal him then he wouldn't even be able to stand let alone walk and run.
And how and when do u reckon that she healed him??
Right after they found ichi they began running to find rukia, then they received the message from unohana and he returned to sokyoku hill. There is no time for healing. Ichi was able to move again b/c his body was no longer under the stress of his and byakuya's spirirtual pressure. It is not an indication that he was healed

ninjaman
May 18, 2009, 04:41 PM
why the f would there be no illusion? that's Aizen's zanpakuto.


i'm pretty sure his bankai will only amplify that power. it will only make it worse.

Aizen is teh pwnage.
Yama is teh overhyped.

AGREE 100% with you, poeple keep over hyping about capt. yamma over aizen. Aizen is a freaking beast we never even see him angry yet he always seems to be playing around and talking the little time we saw him fight. Yamma is old not because he is the general means he stronger than everyone else maybe he got more authority thats why they all respect him that much.

vote Aizen of course
[hr]

And how and when do u reckon that she healed him??
Right after they found ichi they began running to find rukia, then they received the message from unohana and he returned to sokyoku hill. There is no time for healing. Ichi was able to move again b/c his body was no longer under the stress of his and byakuya's spirirtual pressure. It is not an indication that he was healed

as the guy said ichi said he couldnt stand, if he couldnt stand then how was he able to move so fast to save renji without being healed? and even if ichigo was weak when he was stopped by aizen, the dude use a finger to block and almost cut him in half i doubt being 100% would have any big difference.

Onomatopoeia
May 18, 2009, 07:35 PM
AGREE 100% with you, poeple keep over hyping about capt. yamma over aizen. Aizen is a freaking beast we never even see him angry yet he always seems to be playing around and talking the little time we saw him fight. Yamma is old not because he is the general means he stronger than everyone else maybe he got more authority thats why they all respect him that much.

vote Aizen of course
<hr noshade size="1">
Lol no. Two of the strongest SS captains(or at the very least when working together they are heads and toes above the rest) working together are damaged while Yama is unharmed in their fight. Yama is the strongest on his side and no I don't think any of the RG will be above him, I can't believe you're trying to argue this.

mestizo311
May 18, 2009, 09:04 PM
Yamma just needs to go ape shit with his shikai and all will be okay with the world. Aizen would get toasted in the flames and Yamma can call it a day. Illusions or not, if Yamma simply just toasts everything with his shikai then what is there for Aizen to do?. Seeing how we don't know anything about their bankai's, that's not even factored in this discussion.

ninjaman
May 18, 2009, 09:43 PM
if yamma is so strong and could beat aizen why dont he just pwn the espadas quickly and get to the main food chain?

Onomatopoeia
May 18, 2009, 10:05 PM
if yamma is so strong and could beat aizen why dont he just pwn the espadas quickly and get to the main food chain?

You remember that one contract you signed when you started to read Bleach?

The one that says "I will not use lojic in Bleach, only lolgic." Yeah well you should really remember it.

Note how Ukitake isn't doing jack to help Shunsui and Komamaru is basicly the medic of the team, again not doing jack.

Yama probably just wants his captains to do something(and so he can be prepared to fight Aizen). He might also really believe his Captains can do it that or they can weaken the Espada.

This happens in just about every Shonen anyways the uber powerful guy who could pretty much solo all enemies doesn't do anything and lets the weaker teamates fight.

kkck
May 18, 2009, 11:24 PM
if yamma is so strong and could beat aizen why dont he just pwn the espadas quickly and get to the main food chain?

I guess good old yama is like the hokage in naruto. He only fights when the people around him are too incompetent to do jack, otherwise he remains calmly behind everyone giving orders.

choke_a_beech
May 18, 2009, 11:59 PM
also...he probably needs to conserve energy to fight Aizen. he'll probably need every single atom of it. which begs the question...why did he waste some of it burning Allon and Halibel's fraccion to dust?

kkck
May 19, 2009, 12:02 AM
also...he probably needs to conserve energy to fight Aizen. he'll probably need every single atom of it. which begs the question...why did he waste some of it burning Allon and Halibel's fraccion to dust?

Allon, fraccion, VC, all of that is worthless powerless fodder for someone like yamamoto(or any other captain or espada for that matter). Even if he was trying to conserve energy, defeating some cannon fodder doesn't actually require an actual effort.

Rainl
May 19, 2009, 12:21 AM
why the f would there be no illusion? that's Aizen's zanpakuto.

Because Aizen needs an object to cast his illusion over to begin with. He can't indefinitely spam them out of thin air like many people seem to believe. This is something I discovered by re-browsing the manga recently. Yamamoto's AOE flames immediately incinerate any object within a certain range, rendering any types of illusions as useless.

If anyone is willing to object I can provide evidence as to why Aizen cannot do this. Many people may have missed it.

Aizen will only have the zanpaktou itself to cast the illusion over, which simply leaves him to hand-to-hand/Kidou, which I highly doubt will work. However, this isn't including what his bankai may be capable of, so this does not grant Yamamoto a win.


Aizen is teh pwnage.
Yama is teh overhyped.

I believe it's the exact opposite. Aizen is incredibly overrated and the "pwnage", compared to whom? Who exactly has he faced who's even worth mentioning? Lets go down the list:

Hitsugaya - Low-tier
Komamura - Low-tier
Renji - A vice captain?
Ichigo - Who wasn't even at 50% of his strength, due to previously being in a fight which left him unconscious and his bones shattered? Saying Orihime healed him, is simply speculation and therefore, cannot be used to make a point.

I'd hardly consider that cast, worth such the hype that he's given. The only impressive feat he has up-to-date is bringing down the sixth espada with spiritual pressure.

Yamamoto took on two captains simultaneously, which were Shunsui and Ukitake, but-- the difference between his case and Aizen's is that each of these captains are well within high-tier range when scaling the power in Bleach. Shunsui is keeping up with the freaking Primera Espada whilist still having TWO releases left. Also note that he doesn't seem worried in the least about his current situation. When facing Yamamoto he was extremely scared even when he had another top-tier character there to help him.

Yamamoto went unscratched against both, with literally no sweat at all.

So, logically based on feats alone and simply on there initial releases, adding in the fact about Aizen's zanpaktou not being as broken as commonly accepted, Yamamoto would have the edge.

kkck
May 19, 2009, 12:38 AM
Because Aizen needs an object to cast his illusion over to begin with. He can't indefinitely spam them out of thin air like many people seem to believe. This is something I discovered by re-browsing the manga recently. Yamamoto's AOE flames immediately incinerate any object within a certain range, rendering any types of illusions as useless.

If anyone is willing to object I can provide evidence as to why Aizen cannot do this. Many people may have missed it.

Aizen will only have the zanpaktou itself to cast the illusion over, which simply leaves him to hand-to-hand/Kidou, which I highly doubt will work. However, this isn't including what his bankai may be capable of, so this does not grant Yamamoto a win.

Explain how flames render illusions useless. IMO that makes no sense whatsoever.

This is how things would go:

Aizen creates illusion

Yamamoto burns whatever he sees

Aizen makes the illusion appear to burn

Yamamoto is still in illusion thinking he is burning stuff that isn't really there.


Aizen does not need something to cast his illusion on. Once the sword is released aizen can make the oponent see whatever he wants....

Unohana never had an actual body with her when aizen faked his death

When aizen used his illusion against komamura he also did not cast it on an object.

Chaoswind
May 19, 2009, 12:47 AM
That seems to be the case, But Aizen is able to create Illusions out of tin air, is just they are not as convincing and can be seen thought more easily.

He going invisible to spy on Shinji resulted in Shinji feeling something out of place and thus finding him.

In the fight with Komamura, Aizen made Gin look like him and that distracted Komamura.

However I wouldn't dare to say Komamura is low Tier, Komamura took one of the strongest Hadous (on 1/2 of power, but that is still a lot) and only got a few scratches, he did faint, but for all we know that could be an effect of Black coffin... also someone that is praised as one of the strongest captains (in sheer strength) should be more than just a low tier >_>

Actually the only low tiers to me are:

Mayuri (makes up with his cheating)
Hitsugay (Aizen stabbed him once and he was already down -_-) *can be mid tier
Tousen (hax Bankai, but he is not exactly the strongest guy) *can be mid tier
Soi Fon (no one has praised her for ANYTHING, Oh yeah, her mom/Yoruoichi did) *can be mid, and has a hax shikai

EDIT:
and actually He is right Kkck, If Yamamoto burns everything around him, that kind of limits Aizen Shikai, but that doesn't mean it will render it useless...

The fact that Aizen took all the trouble of making a huge shame just to keep the old man busy and distracted seems to point that Yamamoto MAY be more than what Aizen can handle, or at the very least too troublesome to handle.

Because lets face it, Aizen doesn't fear anyone, but that doesn't mean he is delusional and thinks no one can hurt him.

kkck
May 19, 2009, 01:05 AM
EDIT:
and actually He is right Kkck, If Yamamoto burns everything around him, that kind of limits Aizen Shikai, but that doesn't mean it will render it useless...

The fact that Aizen took all the trouble of making a huge shame just to keep the old man busy and distracted seems to point that Yamamoto MAY be more than what Aizen can handle, or at the very least too troublesome to handle.

Because lets face it, Aizen doesn't fear anyone, but that doesn't mean he is delusional and thinks no one can hurt him.

I want to point out that in my post I didn't actually take a side, I was simply saying I don't see how flames or lack of objects limit aizens illusion. We have seen aizen is perfectly capable of creating illusions on thin air on his fight against komamura and when he faked his body.
http://mangahut.com/manga/Bleach/176/pg14

Chaoswind
May 19, 2009, 01:11 AM
I want to point out that in my post I didn't actually take a side, I was simply saying I don't see how flames or lack of objects limit aizens illusion. We have seen aizen is perfectly capable of creating illusions on thin air on his fight against komamura and when he faked his body.
http://mangahut.com/manga/Bleach/176/pg14

-_-

http://mangahut.com/manga/Bleach/176/pg16

The one standing next to Tousen was GIN, Aizen made GIN look like him in order to confuse Komamura, so Out of Thin Air only happened when Aizen went invisible and Shinji found him, so is not as HAX as you think it is.

EDIT: Seems like Koma got a 1/3 of the Coffin, but I still think he fainted because it was an effect of the coffin, not because the damage was too big

kkck
May 19, 2009, 01:31 AM
-_-

http://mangahut.com/manga/Bleach/176/pg16

The one standing next to Tousen was GIN, Aizen made GIN look like him in order to confuse Komamura, so Out of Thin Air only happened when Aizen went invisible and Shinji found him, so is not as HAX as you think it is.

EDIT: Seems like Koma got a 1/3 of the Coffin, but I still think he fainted because it was an effect of the coffin, not because the damage was too big

Oh, I didn't notice that lol. I guess the anime which actually shows the fake aizen disappearing did not help either. And what about aizens fake corpse? I don't recall that one being an object.

Weapon_X
May 19, 2009, 07:24 AM
if yamma is so strong and could beat aizen why dont he just pwn the espadas quickly and get to the main food chain?

If Aizen is so strong and could beat Yama, why don't he just pawn the other Captains quickly and then go for Yama? They are both Commanders for their sides, they let their soldiers do the work, once they are finished then they duel it out. As you know, Yama defeated Allon because Kira and Matsumoto were in danger, then he pawned Halibel's Fraccions. He could have pawned everyone else's Fraccions and could have pawned the 3 Espadas if he wanted to, but he hasn't. What's the point? Just how Aizen is sitting back and enjoying the show, is he trying to break out of the flame wall? No.

Bolshoi Hui
May 19, 2009, 07:27 AM
If Yama owns Aizen what is Bleach about.

Chaoswind
May 19, 2009, 07:31 AM
http://mangahut.com/manga/Bleach/171/pg13

Here is where he explains how it works...

He can make a Swamp look like a flower field and a fly look like a Dragon.

http://mangahut.com/manga/Bleach/171/pg18

Is hinted that Unohana had the corpse of someone else or something similar (Maybe a stub) >_>

So yeah, that wasn't out of thin air either, actually none are because with Shinji he used the hypnosis to look like "he" was invisible, but that didn't work very well >_>

So he is right to say Old Yama Shikai could limit Aizen illusions, because it burns everything (no stubs, no silly replacements for distraction).

However, Aizen is very smart, so he prefers to avoid fights that may be troublesome :)

Also Aizen reveals his reiatsu and power are those above of a captain, and Yamamoto is not really a captain, he is the Commander (enough power to keep 2 top tier captains at bay), I don't remember where, but it says Yamamoto is a retired Gotei 13 officer (not supposed to be a captain anymore) acting as the first division captain, would be funny as hell If sasakibe turned out to be of captain level and also have a Bankai.

Rainl
May 20, 2009, 02:30 PM
He can't make them randomly appear. Here's the instance in regards to Unohana, where he used his sword as the guinea pig for his illusion:

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-171-page-12.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-171-page-14.html

Here's the incident in regards to Komamura that I didn't notice until recently. Notice this panel:

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-176-page-10.html

Now notice this one. Also take into account you don't see Gin. Since he was standing next to Tousen:

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-176-page-11.html

But Aizen never moved:

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-176-page-12.html

Now notice in the upper land panel, as the illusion begins to decimate, look at the right sleeve then at the left. You can clearly see the right sleeve changing to a shorter sleeve while the left sleeve remains long.

Who was the only captain there with short sleeves, besides Komamura?

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-176-page-13.html

Gin. And where does he appear w/short sleeves? Next to Tousen. Also look above his head closely. You can even catch a glimpse of the few lines that dissapear as the illusion wears off.

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-176-page-15.html

Aizen used Gin as the guinea pig to cast his illusion there. If he could merely make them appear out of thin air, there would be no point in using Gin or any other object for that matter.

So many people have been commonly mis-informed, although his bankai could be a different story. Because of his lack of illusions due to Yamamoto's flames, he can only use his sword as an illusion while he'll have to rely on simply hand-to-hand and Kidou, which won't even be remotely close to being enough to beating Yamamoto. His illusions are the only thing that actually hints he has a chance against Yamamoto in the first place. Without them he's simply out of his league.


The one standing next to Tousen was GIN, Aizen made GIN look like him in order to confuse Komamura, so Out of Thin Air only happened when Aizen went invisible and Shinji found him, so is not as HAX as you think it is.

Even then. There's the possibility that it wasn't his shikai at work, it could have been a Kidou simply concealing his presence. We've even seen Hinamori do this with Kidou and who was she under at one point? Aizen.

Raizen
May 21, 2009, 05:25 PM
Explain how flames render illusions useless. IMO that makes no sense whatsoever.

This is how things would go:

Aizen creates illusion

Yamamoto burns whatever he sees

Aizen makes the illusion appear to burn

Yamamoto is still in illusion thinking he is burning stuff that isn't really there.


Aizen does not need something to cast his illusion on. Once the sword is released aizen can make the oponent see whatever he wants....

Unohana never had an actual body with her when aizen faked his death

When aizen used his illusion against komamura he also did not cast it on an object.
He doesn't need to see. even in the illusion it doesn't matter. his zanpakto allows him to attack everywhere. leaving no place to run or hide

mestizo311
May 31, 2009, 06:59 PM
The only way I see Aizen beating Yamamoto is by using a combination of demon magic and attacking with his zanpaktou. I don't think Yamamoto would necessarily be overwhelmed by Aizen's demon magic but it gives him an opportunity to find openings against Yamamoto. I don't remember seeing Yamamoto using any spells in the manga, so it might be the one advantage Aizen has on him.

Also, sorry to stray off topic but where did Yamamoto's vice captain go to?

choke_a_beech
May 31, 2009, 08:39 PM
i was gonna say the exact same thing! everyone has had a fight except for Chojiro (sp?). kubo probably forgot about him........remember he was decked to the ground by ichigo with one punch! yama should have a VC who could take a hit

Chaoswind
May 31, 2009, 10:41 PM
Vizard Ichigo decked a LOT of people back in SS arc... so is not fair to use the ONLY time Choji has a PANEL of "fighting"

choke_a_beech
June 01, 2009, 12:23 AM
ichigo wasn't a vizard back then....he didn't know had to utilise the hollow part of him. i'm just saying that yama being the chief and all that, should have a VC that is stronger than the rest. its only fitting...but no he gets an old geezer

Chaoswind
June 01, 2009, 08:46 PM
ichigo wasn't a vizard back then....he didn't know had to utilise the hollow part of him. i'm just saying that yama being the chief and all that, should have a VC that is stronger than the rest. its only fitting...but no he gets an old geezer

:p

I beg to differ

Ichigo commented that in all his fights vs Strong Shinigamis:

Ikkaku
Renji
Kenpachi
Byakuya

He got helped by the mask in one way or the other, first the mask appeared and saved him from attacks that could/should be fatal, and he even commented how the mask seemed to stop injuries from getting worse.

Don't remember the chapters, but one of them is when Hanatarou tells Ichigo to throw away the mask because it gives him a bad feeling (Ichigo threw it before going into SS, but somehow appeared in his fight with Ikkaku), and the other is when Ichigo is losing control of his hollow and he has a silly flash back (before Ulquiorra's attack?)

You don't need to WEAR the mask in your face to have access to the Hollow powers, (Hiyori), and we know Hollow Ichigo was VERY present and helping Ichigo in his fight vs Kenpachi.

You can believe whatever you want, but a lot of things seem to indicate that Ichigo wasn't a simple Shinigami when he OWNED all those people.

After that Ichigo became weaker because he made Shirosaki mad (telling him to fuck off after Hollow Ichigo saved his ass that was about to be raped by Byakuya)

choke_a_beech
June 01, 2009, 08:59 PM
still yama deserves a stronger VC. he should have the strongest VC in SS.........but alas no.

Chaoswind
June 01, 2009, 09:06 PM
again, to base all your opinions on a single Panel is a little dull

Raizen
June 02, 2009, 05:13 PM
still yama deserves a stronger VC. he should have the strongest VC in SS.........but alas no.
Aren't captains able to choose their VC?? Tha tis what happpened with aizen and gin. So maybe yama chose his VC b/c they are old friends or something. however, why are we discussing his VC when this a yama vs aizen thread??

Eddy01741
June 02, 2009, 08:30 PM
Yep, according to the pendulum arc, Captains choose their own VCs (when Aizen made his speech about accepting Shinji as his captain and all). Anyways, there are plenty of reasons why the 1st squad VC doesn't have to be the strongest, as Yama-Jii could have picked him for numerous reasons. Plus, when shinigami are hiding their power like Ikkaku, it must be hard to pick the strongest VC candidate anyways.

WaveBossa
June 02, 2009, 10:36 PM
Aizen > Yama.

If Yama is still stronger than Aizen, all that talk about walking in the heavens and surpassing all shinigami limits was utter bullshit....

Raizen
June 02, 2009, 11:42 PM
Aizen > Yama.

If Yama is still stronger than Aizen, all that talk about walking in the heavens and surpassing all shinigami limits was utter bullshit....
Not technically. His statement does not give an indication to his strength at all. Aizen stated that he has reached his shinigami limits, but so have other captains like yama, shunsui, uki, and unohana. Moreover, the limits of one is not technically the limits of another. Aizen even with the limits of a hollow and shinigami may still not be as strong as yama with just the shinigami limts, of course I am just giving an example.

Aizen is strong, but I don;t think he can take on yama

Ozehro
June 10, 2009, 05:12 AM
Yama created the SS 2000 years ago!!
it's safe bet to say that he's probably officially the strongest shinigami there
is.maybe after the king. but that said Aizen thinks he can take on the king himself!
so just going by their reputation I would say Aizen is the more powerful(more ambitious) one.

Chaoswind
June 10, 2009, 04:54 PM
Who said the King is a POWERFUL warrior?

For all we know SS king can easily be a fat bastard or a bratty kid... could there be other reason for SS to be such a mess?

-Ren Boy-
June 10, 2009, 05:42 PM
Assumptions, everything about this thread is assumptions. All we know if of the shikai and nothing else because frankly them two haven't been in a official battle like Ichigo and co

Ozehro
June 10, 2009, 08:16 PM
Who said the King is a POWERFUL warrior?

For all we know SS king can easily be a fat bastard or a bratty kid... could there be other reason for SS to be such a mess?

haha the king is omeda! XD
but seriously the king does sound really powerful imo...
as AIzen hint that not even the king started at the top.
as in you earn your way to the top if I understand properly...

Raizen
June 10, 2009, 08:17 PM
Assumptions, everything about this thread is assumptions. All we know if of the shikai and nothing else because frankly them two haven't been in a official battle like Ichigo and co
Yet his shikai is strong enough to take on two of the strongest captains
i doubt aizen could take on both shunsui and uki. in fact i think aizen would have a hard time with just one

Revolation
June 19, 2009, 09:08 AM
Aizen wins.
Yama has the greatest fire zan, sure. But Aizen has the most powerful ability we've seen. Illusions you can't avoid.

Think about it. Aizen could make the illusion that he is on fire when he could be in a totally different place watching Yama get exhausted fighting an illusion.

Therefore Aizen wins. :<

Only way Yama could win is if Aizen makes a stupid mistake like being overconfident and actually appearing in-person before Yama and Yama deciding to do a quick kill and just go bankai and burn the entire Earth or something.


but they still are in fact illusions which means they won't do real damage to you if aizen attacks with them which wouldn't make any sense. now what you suggested makes sense, aizen making somebody tired by making them fight an illusion, or making the opponet think he is somewhere else and then attacking them like he did with kommumura.
but attacking them with illusions won't work in my opinion

plus if yamma's bankai is super hot how will aizen even approach him? :D

Eddy01741
June 19, 2009, 10:21 AM
Not technically. His statement does not give an indication to his strength at all. Aizen stated that he has reached his shinigami limits, but so have other captains like yama, shunsui, uki, and unohana. Moreover, the limits of one is not technically the limits of another. Aizen even with the limits of a hollow and shinigami may still not be as strong as yama with just the shinigami limts, of course I am just giving an example.

Aizen is strong, but I don;t think he can take on yama

Yeah, who knows, maybe Aizen is the Grimmjow of the gotei 13 captains. Reaching his limit but still lusting for more power (Grimmjow never got to be a VL, even though he never stopped eating unlike the rest of his wolfpack, and he always tries to say he's stronger than Ulqui and everything). So who knows, maybe he has relatively average limits for a gotei 13 captain (considering that most of the middle/younger aged captains have not reached their limits, as shown by the databook).


Yet his shikai is strong enough to take on two of the strongest captains
i doubt aizen could take on both shunsui and uki. in fact i think aizen would have a hard time with just one
Well, first of all, it'd be a reasonable assumption to say that this fight didn't have enough time to get serious. Neither side went bankai, and neither side had considerable wounds from the fight. Plus, Shunsui and Uki were pretty reluctant to fight Yama-jii, but Yama was being a stubborn bastard in upholding rediculous punishments set forth by the central 46 (which was at that point, Aizen), so they were forced to fight.

Doumo
September 19, 2009, 08:07 AM
Yeah, who knows, maybe Aizen is the Grimmjow of the gotei 13 captains. Reaching his limit but still lusting for more power (Grimmjow never got to be a VL, even though he never stopped eating unlike the rest of his wolfpack, and he always tries to say he's stronger than Ulqui and everything). So who knows, maybe he has relatively average limits for a gotei 13 captain (considering that most of the middle/younger aged captains have not reached their limits, as shown by the databook).


Well, first of all, it'd be a reasonable assumption to say that this fight didn't have enough time to get serious. Neither side went bankai, and neither side had considerable wounds from the fight. Plus, Shunsui and Uki were pretty reluctant to fight Yama-jii, but Yama was being a stubborn bastard in upholding rediculous punishments set forth by the central 46 (which was at that point, Aizen), so they were forced to fight.

Well what you say needs some clarification:
what's the point for them to not fight seriously a foe clearly stronger then them...(at least singularly taken)...what were they waiting for ?
Do you suggest that they foreseen what was going to happen ?
Or they were simply hoping for Yamaji to have an infarct...?
I think that they were serious and also theywere two goners...
maybe in the en they could've taken Yamaji...but at least one of them would've dead in the process...or maybe Yamaji would've spared their lives leaving them simply unable to move...

Mifune_Taichou
September 19, 2009, 08:25 AM
Personally id have to give it to yamamoto. We know abilities in bleach are less effective on people whoa re on your level or stronger. Personally I think yamamoto is stronger than Aizen in terms of sheer reiatsu and atk power so I dont think Aizen's cheap shikai trick would work or at least not completely. Also I dont think it matters WHERE aizen is when fighting Yamamoto he'll still get burned. Reasonably, Yamamoto should be a supperior swordsman as well so I wouldnt exclude the possibility of him being able to do a Kenpachi on Aizen and react as soon as Aizen tries cutting him.

If Aizen was indistructable he wouldnt feel the need to dodge Kukkau's lvl 63 hadou. I daresay Yamamotos shikai is more damaging than that. His bankai will be INSANE. I think Aizen would get overwhealemd by that power,, which is why he has so far avoided a confrontation. If Aizen ever kills yamamoto in Bleach it will be in a cheap way-he doesnt have the sack to fight him mano e mano in my oppinion or he would have done it already.

I think Aizen is awesomely powerful dont get me wrong but I think we shouldnt get ahead of ourselves here. The antagonist is not always the strongest character in every shounen. Example soul eater-the main antagonist is te Kishin who is weaker than Shinigami Sama-the only reason he survives is because Shinigami cant leave death city.

Gran Maestro
September 19, 2009, 10:02 AM
Personally id have to give it to yamamoto. We know abilities in bleach are less effective on people whoa re on your level or stronger. Personally I think yamamoto is stronger than Aizen in terms of sheer reiatsu and atk power so I dont think Aizen's cheap shikai trick would work or at least not completely. Also I dont think it matters WHERE aizen is when fighting Yamamoto he'll still get burned. Reasonably, Yamamoto should be a supperior swordsman as well so I wouldnt exclude the possibility of him being able to do a Kenpachi on Aizen and react as soon as Aizen tries cutting him.

If Aizen was indistructable he wouldnt feel the need to dodge Kukkau's lvl 63 hadou. I daresay Yamamotos shikai is more damaging than that. His bankai will be INSANE. I think Aizen would get overwhealemd by that power,, which is why he has so far avoided a confrontation. If Aizen ever kills yamamoto in Bleach it will be in a cheap way-he doesnt have the sack to fight him mano e mano in my oppinion or he would have done it already.

I think Aizen is awesomely powerful dont get me wrong but I think we shouldnt get ahead of ourselves here. The antagonist is not always the strongest character in every shounen. Example soul eater-the main antagonist is te Kishin who is weaker than Shinigami Sama-the only reason he survives is because Shinigami cant leave death city.

I totally agree. The last chapter strengthened my belief that how much of a beast Yama is.

benelori
September 19, 2009, 11:59 AM
I think in bleach even if U have the most powerful attack zan. that doesn't guarantee U win and survive more than 2 millenia...aizen is strong, but he said *even if his illusion is noticed it's too late...that means the illusions are not that perfect like he likes to describe them...even komamura spotted something and then there was the reply(see *)
I don't think he can fool Yama so easily...ukitake and kyouraku together were consider children by him, duo which IMO could have a chance against aizen...so I voted Yamamoto

The only way I see Yama die in the manga is by some sort of cheating or trickery...a trap or conspiracy...in face to face battle Yama will win...

Mifune_Taichou
September 20, 2009, 06:19 PM
I think in bleach even if U have the most powerful attack zan. that doesn't guarantee U win and survive more than 2 millenia...aizen is strong, but he said *even if his illusion is noticed it's too late...that means the illusions are not that perfect like he likes to describe them...even komamura spotted something and then there was the reply(see *)
I don't think he can fool Yama so easily...ukitake and kyouraku together were consider children by him, duo which IMO could have a chance against aizen...so I voted Yamamoto

The only way I see Yama die in the manga is by some sort of cheating or trickery...a trap or conspiracy...in face to face battle Yama will win...

I completely agree with you. If Aizen kills Yama I bet anything it will be through some cheap trick/gang up/ something lame.I dont think hes got it in him to take on the big man.

Doumo
September 21, 2009, 08:50 AM
Well... if the situation becomes critical Yamaji can always "Reduce All the Creation to Ash"...:D
I mean...he could simply blast everything that approaches him...
if Azien could take Yamaji himself he would've arleady done it...sparing himself from all the pain of creating an army of nullity like the espada...

El Samurai Guapo
September 21, 2009, 10:47 PM
Well... if the situation becomes critical Yamaji can always "Reduce All the Creation to Ash"...:D
I mean...he could simply blast everything that approaches him...
if Azien could take Yamaji himself he would've arleady done it...sparing himself from all the pain of creating an army of nullity like the espada...

Exactly, why would he just be standing there wasting his time if he knew he could just eliminate the Shinigami leader himself, which would effectively end the war. If Yamamoto were to be killed by Aizen, that would pretty much crush the morale of the remaining Shinigami, and they'd be done for.

I really want Shinji to be the one to defeat Aizen though!

exacta
September 21, 2009, 11:05 PM
Well, I seem to remember reading some kind of data Kubo released on the stats of all the Gotei 13 Captains. And according to the stats, I believe Yama and Aizen both had 560. So they're about even. It'd be hard to say who would win, especially when we've seen very little from Aizen. But Aizen was able to bring Grimmjow to his knees with his reiatsu, and like it or not Grimmjow is captain level. Maybe weak captain level, but captain level nonetheless. And Shunsui and Uki could handle Yama's reiatsu.

I know they're top tier captains, but I'm sure all 13 captains could handle his reiatsu. This comparison certainly isn't enough for me to reach the conclusion Aizen would win lol. Well, I'm sure if the fight did happen Aizen would for the sake of the plot, but that doesn't guarantee Aizen will be stronger, because we don't know exactly how he would win. If Aizen used the Hogyoku on himself, then I'd say Aizen is definitely stronger. If he hasn't yet, then who knows lol....

Gran Maestro
September 22, 2009, 05:11 AM
Well, I seem to remember reading some kind of data Kubo released on the stats of all the Gotei 13 Captains. And according to the stats, I believe Yama and Aizen both had 560. So they're about even.

We can't use the stats to compare two captains because they only show what percent of his/her potential a captain has accomplished. For example, Yamamoto's 100 in offence is not equal to Komamura's 100.


It'd be hard to say who would win, especially when we've seen very little from Aizen. But Aizen was able to bring Grimmjow to his knees with his reiatsu, and like it or not Grimmjow is captain level. Maybe weak captain level, but captain level nonetheless. And Shunsui and Uki could handle Yama's reiatsu.

I know they're top tier captains, but I'm sure all 13 captains could handle his reiatsu.

The Grimmjow issue is a common misconception. In these reiatsu feats "fear factor" is extremely important. For example, Kenpachi's reiatsu stunned Ganju (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/105/01/) but he later overcame his fear and challenged Byakuya (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/116/14/) despite acknowledging (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/116/10/) Byakuya might have stronger reiatsu.

When Aizen made Grimmjow fall to his knees, Grimmjow was in no position to resist or attack Aizen (and Gin, Tousen and 9 other espada). If Grimmjow meets Aizen in another situation, Aizen may not be able to defeat him by merely releasing reiatsu. Yes, Yamamoto probably cannot defeat other captains by staring at them but neither can Aizen. Aizen didn't even defeat Renji (who is weaker than Grimmjow) by staring at him, he used his sword (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/174/17/). Yamamoto's Nanao feat might actually be a more impressive feat because he paralyzed Nanao despite the fact that she had two strong allies by her side and had no reason to fear.


This comparison certainly isn't enough for me to reach the conclusion Aizen would win lol. Well, I'm sure if the fight did happen Aizen would for the sake of the plot, but that doesn't guarantee Aizen will be stronger, because we don't know exactly how he would win. If Aizen used the Hogyoku on himself, then I'd say Aizen is definitely stronger. If he hasn't yet, then who knows lol....

Aizen didn't yet attack a strong adversary who is aware of his abilities, this is why I'm a bit suspicious about his actual strength. Sure, the main villain has to be strong but the extent of his strength remains to be seen.

Mifune_Taichou
September 22, 2009, 09:28 AM
Exactly, why would he just be standing there wasting his time if he knew he could just eliminate the Shinigami leader himself, which would effectively end the war. If Yamamoto were to be killed by Aizen, that would pretty much crush the morale of the remaining Shinigami, and they'd be done for.

I really want Shinji to be the one to defeat Aizen though!

I agree. If he could defeat Yammaoto he would have done it by now. The problem is I think it would take eveything Aizen has to beat Shunsui and Ukitake so I think hes made a calc that he cnat take all 3 and Gin and Tosen would die to the other Gotei 13. Thats the only reason why he might not have gone for the throne if he could. I still dnt buy it though because if he really is stronger than Yama then he ought to be able to subdue everyone else. I guess it depends on whether the rest of the captains say-ok hes captain commander now and just follow him or all attack him.
[hr]

We can't use the stats to compare two captains because they only show what percent of his/her potential a captain has accomplished. For example, Yamamoto's 100 in offence is not equal to Komamura's 100.



The Grimmjow issue is a common misconception. In these reiatsu feats "fear factor" is extremely important. For example, Kenpachi's reiatsu stunned Ganju (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/105/01/) but he later overcame his fear and challenged Byakuya (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/116/14/) despite acknowledging (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/116/10/) Byakuya might have stronger reiatsu.

When Aizen made Grimmjow fall to his knees, Grimmjow was in no position to resist or attack Aizen (and Gin, Tousen and 9 other espada). If Grimmjow meets Aizen in another situation, Aizen may not be able to defeat him by merely releasing reiatsu. Yes, Yamamoto probably cannot defeat other captains by staring at them but neither can Aizen. Aizen didn't even defeat Renji (who is weaker than Grimmjow) by staring at him, he used his sword (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/174/17/). Yamamoto's Nanao feat might actually be a more impressive feat because he paralyzed Nanao despite the fact that she had two strong allies by her side and had no reason to fear.



Aizen didn't yet attack a strong adversary who is aware of his abilities, this is why I'm a bit suspicious about his actual strength. Sure, the main villain has to be strong but the extent of his strength remains to be seen.

You have a point about Aizen's strenght actually. Firstly Grimmjow is below every captain in the Gotei 13-I'm sorry i know he is cool but he is just a weakling. There is not one captain that he could actually defeat. Ichigo was just having a hard time because he is well-crap and only now got to his best. SO bringing down frimmjow doesnt mean Aizen can do it to another captain-they're just on a different level. Imho the level of the Gotei 10 starts at Espada rank 4 and goes up.

And its true that Aizen has never fought someone who he hasnt surprised with his abilities (apart from renji lol). And his feats of attack arent that impressive because hes so far failed at killing everyone hes tried to kill.

Smudj
September 22, 2009, 09:36 AM
What's the point in discussing when we haven't seen the full extent of their abilities.

Hachigeneral
September 22, 2009, 10:22 AM
What people really want to know is if Aizen can beat Yama in a sword fight without the hypnosis. I'd say he can't, as Ichigo was shown to block Aizen. Yama destroying Allon looked like the most powerful sword slashes we have seen in the show. Aizen needs to show his real sword skills before I'm convinced and I'm not just talking about destroying the little kid captain when he is in an illusion.

Disable the shikais and have them fight it out with swords and Yama takes it. It wouldn't be a fair fight though to let Yama use his Shikai and not Aizen but I'd say Sword vs. Sword he can take Aizen. However, once shikais come into play Aizen's seems to ruin the entire purpose of a fight, to see whos stronger/faster/better in a duel. The shikai negates all advantages and lets Aizen do whatever he wants to his opponent. Even if Yamamoto spams large fire attacks that cover the area Aizen can still cast kidou from ranged and get a disoriented/confused Yamamoto trapped in an illusion. He should fight like a man and show us what he's got IMO. Pretty obvious he can beat anyone including Yama with the shikai alone.

Raizen
September 22, 2009, 11:21 AM
Most of you guys summed it up pretty well.
I think aizen's ability is sort of similar to zomari. When used against those weaker then you, it can be very effective. But if used against someone who is equally strong or stronger, your ability is lessened. Now to me, Yama has more SP than aizen. So the illusion may not work as well. Besides, Yama has a zanpaktou that has no blind spots. He can attack everywhere!!

Until Aizen shows what he can do w/o his shikai, then I'll consider it. B.c right now the only reason why people think he is powerful is b.c he is the mastermind behind everything

Pavitre
September 22, 2009, 11:47 AM
What people really want to know is if Aizen can beat Yama in a sword fight without the hypnosis. I'd say he can't, as Ichigo was shown to block Aizen. Yama destroying Allon looked like the most powerful sword slashes we have seen in the show. Aizen needs to show his real sword skills before I'm convinced and I'm not just talking about destroying the little kid captain when he is in an illusion.

Disable the shikais and have them fight it out with swords and Yama takes it. It wouldn't be a fair fight though to let Yama use his Shikai and not Aizen but I'd say Sword vs. Sword he can take Aizen. However, once shikais come into play Aizen's seems to ruin the entire purpose of a fight, to see whos stronger/faster/better in a duel. The shikai negates all advantages and lets Aizen do whatever he wants to his opponent. Even if Yamamoto spams large fire attacks that cover the area Aizen can still cast kidou from ranged and get a disoriented/confused Yamamoto trapped in an illusion. He should fight like a man and show us what he's got IMO. Pretty obvious he can beat anyone including Yama with the shikai alone.


i think yamajii can negate all kidou's too, he should have had plenty of experience practicing with them
lol, on the other hand yama can fight with his eyes closed, he stays like that al the time,

benelori
September 22, 2009, 11:59 AM
i think yamajii can negate all kidou's too, he should have had plenty of experience practicing with them
lol, on the other hand yama can fight with his eyes closed, he stays like that al the time,

Maaaan...I almost fell out of my chair...lol...

Most of you guys summed it up pretty well.
I think aizen's ability is sort of similar to zomari. When used against those weaker then you, it can be very effective. But if used against someone who is equally strong or stronger, your ability is lessened. Now to me, Yama has more SP than aizen. So the illusion may not work as well. Besides, Yama has a zanpaktou that has no blind spots. He can attack everywhere!!



agreed anyway...unohana spotted a fault in the illusion...I think Yama can do that as well...