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BlackHair
October 29, 2008, 09:37 AM
I would like to ask for opinions regarding the purpose of the infoboxes. I usually don't open threads, but I desperately want to make it clear. I also used the search function and couldn't find any similar threads. Before some1 asks why Im asking such a stupid question, its coz of this thread (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2675&page=19). There was a major discussion (last 4 pages) about this, so to make that clear Im opening this thread. I would like to hear only opinions about the infoboxes, so plz avoid discussion like X vs Y. Also even if I may ask to much, plz try to keep this thread clean by not not flaming and such as.

As for now I heard about two possible purposes:

1.) Infoboxes are absolute law. With that the author wants us to believe in sth, he wants to make sth clear. Those boxes keep information about the character, which are neutral and without influences of character views. You can only dispute the contain, if there is a "change" after the introduction. As long there isn't such "changes" the contain of the box is valid. I repeat these display the present (current) and not the future.

2.) Infobox contains among others what the majority of the world thinks. Character views influences the contain about the boxes.


http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/3580/15eb6.jpg (http://img60.onemanga.com/mangas/00000002/000066782/15.jpg)

http://img397.imageshack.us/img397/9424/02iu1.jpg (http://img60.onemanga.com/mangas/00000002/00000432/02.jpg)

http://img366.imageshack.us/img366/4521/19ed7.jpg (http://img60.onemanga.com/mangas/00000002/000044661/19.jpg)

d3death
October 31, 2008, 04:37 AM
well i think its both

using ur examples

marine HQ vice admiral Monkey D. Garp
"Garp the Fist"

well its what oda whats us to think.
that Garp is a VA and at the same time ppl [ majority of onepiece world ] call him garp the fist

same goes for othes.

Dice
October 31, 2008, 07:13 AM
Mhh obviously its what Oda wants us to know. Of course he could just let a character say something but with the infobox he wants to show us the credibility of this information and as far as I know this is still valid since there are no infoboxes with wrong informations so far.

And if Oda wants to show us what the majority in the world thinks he could just let a few characters say it or give us the information in a newspaper.


Edit: Thank you for this thread I was desperately waiting for it^^

BlackHair
October 31, 2008, 06:34 PM
well i think its both

using ur examples

marine HQ vice admiral Monkey D. Garp
"Garp the Fist"

well its what oda whats us to think.
that Garp is a VA and at the same time ppl [ majority of onepiece world ] call him garp the fist

same goes for othes.
I can't remember some1 calling him "Garp the Fist". I just can remember ppl (W7) and Nami calling him the "Hero of Marine".

Same with Ray, he is called by name or "Dark King", but no1 called him "The right Hand of Pk".

Not sure though, Im just writing from my memory without checking the manga. I didn't expected a discussion, but just 11 votes including mine.. lol :p

Edit:
If something is what the world think, the info box will show in between "".
I believe those are made by the scan-/translator. Or are these also appear on the jap raw in the exact same way?

Fox666
October 31, 2008, 09:45 PM
If something is what the world think, the info box will show in between "".

Razh
November 01, 2008, 04:27 AM
Oda isn't the kind of author who gives absolute truths about some characters. It's not in this manga's style to give absolute truths. If Whitebeard is the strongest pirate in the world, than he won't lose to any pirate if he fights. That makes thing less than interesting.

Personally, I think Oda gives information of what is commonly accepted in One Piece world. Whitebeard is probably the oldest pirate around, and at the same time, most famous, beside Roger. He probably didn't even had a hard fight since Roger. That's why, most of the people reffer to him as strongest.
There wouldn't be any point in giving absolute truths, since there aren't any in this manga, when it comes to fighting.

Dice
November 01, 2008, 07:18 AM
Well but until now I can't remember a single infobox which was proven wrong later.
And the only things you can not take that serious when it comes to fighting is a statement of a character.
I still think WB is the strogenst when it comes one to one but there is a little chance that strongest in this case means "mightiest" or most "influential". But I don't think that this is the case because of the "Mihawk is the strongest swordfighter"-thing. So even this infobox is still valid in my opinion but we might see if he's the strongest or not very soon.

paradoxe
November 01, 2008, 09:03 AM
he won't lose to any pirate if he fights.

He won't lose in a fair 1v1 match.

He could get outwitted, or outnumbered, surrounded, ganged up on, sneak attacked.

There are multiple ways he could lose..

Akainu
November 01, 2008, 01:43 PM
is fighting a woman among those possibilities? that would depend on how it is written in the infobox in japanese... would be somehow like lotr then xD

anyway, to stay on topic (purpose of the infoboxes in general) I think those are information Oda wants to give us. if he wants to hold some information back he is free to do so (introducing someone and later adding the DF and so on).

Onomatopoeia
November 01, 2008, 02:21 PM
THis is a tricky question simply because of Titles. Titles are bestowed upon by the rest of the world and what they think of the person in question. WB is the "Strongest Person in the World" simply because the rest of the people in the world think he is.

BlackHair
November 01, 2008, 04:45 PM
Tbh I don't understand where that "what the world thinks" idea comes from.

Ray is called beside by his name also Dark King. Still that wasn't mentioned in the infobox. Even though the world calls him like that. Same with Garp, he is called hero of marine. Now in WB's case, no-one in the op world called him strongest man, beside the infobox. He was so far only put very high, but that doesn't make him the strongest. Buggy also called him strongest pirate, technically there could be a stronger marine. So where does the idea/theory "what the world thinks/calls" comes from? I fail to see examples. Isn't it more likely that ODA wants to tell us that he is the strongest man?

Also note where the "apostrophes" are: WB (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/234/12-13/). If we go with what Ilovefoxes (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1092714&postcount=2) said then strongest man is not a title, but a fact.

Should I missed sth, feel free to correct me. I just want to make that clear.

Onomatopoeia
November 01, 2008, 06:10 PM
Tbh I don't understand where that "what the world thinks" idea comes from.

Ray is called beside by his name also Dark King. Still that wasn't mentioned in the infobox. Even though the world calls him like that. Same with Garp, he is called hero of marine. Now in WB's case, no-one in the op world called him strongest man, beside the infobox. He was so far only put very high, but that doesn't make him the strongest. Buggy also called him strongest pirate, technically there could be a stronger marine. So where does the idea/theory "what the world thinks/calls" comes from? I fail to see examples. Isn't it more likely that ODA wants to tell us that he is the strongest man?

Also note where the "apostrophes" are: WB (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/234/12-13/). If we go with what Ilovefoxes (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1092714&postcount=2) said then strongest man is not a title, but a fact.

Should I missed sth, feel free to correct me. I just want to make that clear.


Mihawk... Zoro calls him the Strongest Swordsman, I think Red Leg Zeff did too. It's common knowledge likely that WB is the strongest person in the world or at least believed.

paradoxe
November 02, 2008, 02:40 AM
I guess thats another way of looking at it.

BlackHair
November 02, 2008, 01:11 PM
That's rly interesting, tbh I have never read the manga in that view. Also there is a difference in titles and nicknames, so it does has a logic.

Anyway, though I can now more appreciate the "anti WB" theory, I still think (not sure as before though) those infoboxes are for us reader, which do not represent the viewpoint of the character. If its about title, I think Oda could have let some character stating him so. So basically I believe the strongest man is more like a description consequently a fact and not a only a title.

Razh
November 02, 2008, 01:49 PM
People always tend to shorten titles. That's not much of a proof.

And infoboxes can not be absolute law. Basically, If infoboxes are absolute law, than WB will never lose a fight against a pirate. It means that there isn't any pirate stronger than him at the moment.
So maybe he is. But what will happen in a couple of years. WB certainly isn't as strong as he was in his prime, when he fought with Roger. Even Garp and Rayleigh implies that they were stronger before. It means old age sucks even in One Piece.

Naturally, eventually there will be someone who is stronger than Whitebeard, if there isn't already. Who knows what the other 2 Yonkou are capable off.

Whitebeard is called strongest pirate because he's the only one who tied against Roger, who obviously defeated anyone else he fought against. But Roger died 20 years ago, and WB is 20 years older, and times are different.

Oda just gives us general info, excepted truths about some characters. I really doubt it that anyone tried to test WB's strenght in any recent time. So there's no way to know if he really is the strongest.

Don't naively believe everything that infoboxes or characters in manga say. It's just a way for the author to make us think what he wants to. Possibly to surprise us more effectively later.

BlackHair
November 02, 2008, 02:34 PM
And infoboxes can not be absolute law. Basically, If infoboxes are absolute law, than WB will never lose a fight against a pirate. It means that there isn't any pirate stronger than him at the moment.
So maybe he is. But what will happen in a couple of years. WB certainly isn't as strong as he was in his prime, when he fought with Roger. Even Garp and Rayleigh implies that they were stronger before. It means old age sucks even in One Piece.
Don't know where u got that, but I don't think some1 rly thought WB won't lose. Like I said, the infobox represent the present not the future. If there is a "change" then the contain of the box can be disputed.

Example: Enel was stated as "God" (name of the ruler, like President in several country's) in the infobox. After a revolution which happened after his introduction, he was detached. GanFall became the new ruler, the new-old God.

Same with WB, he won't stay forever the strongest, which is absurd since Luffy will surpass him one day. There is a reason why several character hints towards to a era change. WB will fall as the most powerful pirate. The "change" in his case, would be a power up for a character.

Anyway regarding WB fighting power, he must have fought several major battles after Roger. He is a active pirate who must have defended his own position. There is a reason why he named Garp and SenGoku. Those guys must have fought since Roger. True, they are not as strong as before, but that doesn't necessary makes them weaker as the current ages top dogs. It just means they were in their primetime incredibly strong. Also think about how the Yonko established.

So we are not naively believing in the infobox, on the other hand others shouldn't believe in merely BB arrogance words.

Akainu
November 02, 2008, 02:44 PM
then there still is an OP infobox to be shown in that Oda lied to us.

furthermore as some others pointed out even if he is the strongest man he might loose a fight, because there is more than strength you need to win (tactics, ambition, tricks, skill, number, etc.).
Agreed, there are some factors that make the infoboxes not absolute, like time which is a very important one, as infoboxes tend to be snapshots, and incompletenes.
BUT: until we get further information we shouldn't doubt what we read in the boxes until then. it's diffent if we would only look at what Buggy said in 233 p13 for example (WB= strongest pirate, closest to OP etc.) which is just an opinion and may be proven wrong (except that Oda relatively rarely let's his characters state false things).

Dice
November 02, 2008, 03:06 PM
Don't naively believe everything that infoboxes or characters in manga say. It's just a way for the author to make us think what he wants to. Possibly to surprise us more effectively later.

Until an infobox is proven wrong I don't see any reason not to believe that its information is valid. But you are right we shouldn't believe everything what a character says (nice exemple: http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/47/15/ ).

And even the strongest man can lose against two opponents or an ambush (or against the strongest women^^) etc..

Somehow I believe this thread will be the same as the WB/BB-thread XD


Edit: Ähhm forgot to read the second page, so I might have repeated something^^

bittman
November 02, 2008, 05:57 PM
Well though they aren't absolute law, most infoboxes usually contain a rank and name. Any extra information is usually a title.

If we look at the examples in the first post:
Rank - Marine Headquarters Vice Admiral
Name - Monkey D. Garp
Title - Garp the Fist

Title's are not always given, but it is this that has been the point of debate. Name and Rank are obviously complete fact, however the Title is what can be seen as ambiguous. Whitebeard's "Strongest man in the world" was always a title to me and not fact. Rayleigh is not currently the "Pirate King's Right Hand", because there is no current Pirate King and Roger is dead, however this is how he is known.

If we ever had a new one for Luffy it would be:
Mugiwara Captain
Monkey D. "Strawhat" Luffy
Bounty: 300,000,000 beri

Which reminds me that infoboxes are always different for pirates with a bounty also.

Akainu
November 03, 2008, 02:51 AM
Iagree with you since Rayleighs introductary infobox read :
[Former Roger Pirates First Mate]
["Right Hand of the Pirate King"]

the first one makes it pretty clear imo that he lost his rank as they disbanded as we learned later on.
the latter as you say is a title and therefore even remains as there is no PK at the moment.
however there hasn't been one inbetween so the title/rank of PK still is strongly bound to Gol D., the only pirateking we know ever existed.

the thing to note here is, that "right hand of the pirateking" and "garp the fist" are both put inbetween "..." while Whitebeards strongest man in the world isnt.
at least in the scanlation... would be interesting to look at the raw here :tem

bittman
November 03, 2008, 05:39 AM
Yeah I was thinking about the same thing when I was typing my post. Where's a RAW?

Yabe
November 03, 2008, 12:25 PM
The RAWs also have the quotation marks on the same phrases as the scans.


Garp:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v38/LadyHilda/garp.jpg

Mihawk:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v38/LadyHilda/mihawk.jpg

Rayleigh:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v38/LadyHilda/rayleigh.jpg

Whitebeard:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v38/LadyHilda/wb.jpg

Akainu
November 03, 2008, 01:03 PM
thank you kindly Yabe!

that means only shirohige is in quotation marks... damn you Oda :darn

bittman
November 03, 2008, 06:31 PM
Thanks a ton Yabe!

Excellent, debate over amirite? =P

Fox666
November 04, 2008, 08:42 PM
http://static.bleachexile.com/manga/one-piece/106/18.jpg

bittman
November 05, 2008, 07:56 AM
There a point to that, or are we collecting them now? I think there have been about 100 infoboxes in the history of One Piece.

If it has a point, I'm missing it since:
Name: Igarubpoi (aka really bad translation)
Position: Mayor of Whisky Peak
Title: none

BlackHair
November 05, 2008, 08:51 PM
Name: Edward Newcart Nickname: Whitebeard
Position: Strongest Man in the World
Title : Great Pirate (Yonkou)

hm.. So a title is sth stated or called by ppl right? Then can be "Yonko" and "strongest man" read as titles?


Name: Silvers Rayleigh
Rank/Position: Former First-Mate of the Roger Pirates "The Pirates Kings Right Hand Man"

Fox666
November 06, 2008, 02:07 AM
There a point to that, or are we collecting them now? I think there have been about 100 infoboxes in the history of One Piece.

If it has a point, I'm missing it since:
Name: Igarubpoi (aka really bad translation)
Position: Mayor of Whisky Peak
Title: noneHe is a agent of Baroque Works, I don't think he is truly a mayor there.

bittman
November 06, 2008, 07:23 AM
Actually, the entire town is Baroque Works. He is the highest ranking, hence he is the mayor. Though more a "fighter" than "mayor", he still oversaw the development of Whisky Peak. Still not sure what you're trying to dispute? Is Whitebeard not the captain of the Whitebeard pirates? Because that's his position.

Which reminds me: @blackhair:
Name: Edward Newcart Nickname: Whitebeard
Position: Yonkou / Captain of Whitebeard Pirates
Title: Strongest Man in the World

Being the strongest man in the world isnt a position. If the quotation marks didn't prove that to you, the let me explain. His position can not be "Strongest Man in the World", because it's not a position. If Whitebeard died tomorrow, they don't then go "well, who are we going to replace him with?" <- that's a position. A title on the other hand is something you practically take to your grave, though Whitebeard's title is contradictory in this way that, if he was to take it to his grave, he would not really be the strongest man in the world.

BlackHair
November 06, 2008, 07:40 AM
He is a agent of Baroque Works, I don't think he is truly a mayor there.
Since the Baraque works are occupying the small island it makes Igaram as his agent position the major of the city.



Being the strongest man in the world isnt a position. If the quotation marks didn't prove that to you, the let me explain. His position can not be "Strongest Man in the World", because it's not a position. If Whitebeard died tomorrow, they don't then go "well, who are we going to replace him with?" <- that's a position. A title on the other hand is something you practically take to your grave, though Whitebeard's title is contradictory in this way that, if he was to take it to his grave, he would not really be the strongest man in the world.According to ur examples which u posted above, I believe Yonko and strongest man would be a title for him. Like u explained titles are sth which will be taken into ur grave. If WB dies, so will his crew as one of the Yonko. Whether or not they are worth being a Yonko without WB, must be firstly proven.

But I don't get what u mean by question marks: "Whitebeard" Garp the fist" "the pirate kings right hand" I don't rly see a connection in those. It could be that only nicknames (alike) are in question marks. So what should that prove in WB case? ..

Kaiser Will
November 22, 2008, 10:38 PM
That's a quite interesting question!
But first let's talk about facts, as in your exemple of WB, in OP world is a common sense that WB is the strongest men alive, Why? He could stand up a fight againt Roger, the legendary Pirate King. But we never actually see Roger in action, but try considering Rayleigh, is also a common sense that he was the first mate of the Roger Pirates, and judging by his power, he can stop an Admiral, and even drow blood from a Logia user, so Roger should be the Guy in OP.
As blackhair say the infoboxes show as information of what Oda think, and therefore what this character represents to the OP world.