Complete List of all Characters' Elements

[sharinganLS]

In the recent chapters we found out some very interesting information reguarding elements. Characters in the naruto world have the ability to use particular elements in their jutsus.

Currently we know:
Sasuke = fire and lightning (might use sharingan to copy use of other elements)
Naruto = wind
Haku = water and wind
Yamato = earth and water
Kakashi = lightning (and copy the use of other elements using sharingan)
Asuma = wind and Fire

looking at the jutsus used by the characters it might by possible to indentify the elements used for that particular jutsu.

In this topic I would like u all to either guess or prove which elements are used by which characters and for what particular jutsu.

[lucky]

i dont think you can put such heavy restriction on character's elemental abilities. sharingan is not needed to learn additional elements.

Example: Asuma uses a fire jutsu in chapter 323 [spoilers out atm]

[sharinganLS]

i dont think you can put such heavy restriction on character's elemental abilities. sharingan is not needed to learn additional elements.

Example: Asuma uses a fire jutsu in chapter 323 [spoilers out atm]


Im not restricting character's elemental abilities. Im only stating wats known up till now. Besides isnt it obvious that not all characters can use all the 5 elements. And yeah from the raw its now known that Asuma can use a fire jutsu. Since Asuma is around Kakashi's level im not suprised he can use more than one element type.

This topic was created to find out or guess Shikamaru's, Chouji's, Sai's, Hinata's, Neiji, etc.. their element types (and im not restricting it to one element type).

[BlueChild]

Kakashi said that normally Jounins can at least controll 2 elements.
And Kakashi himself said that he can controll all elements, i'm not sure if he can only naturally controll lightning. i'm sure he aslo has another Nature like Yamato and Asuma etc. It's quite hard to tell who's controlling which element.

[lucky]

Im not restricting character's elemental abilities. Im only stating wats known up till now. Besides isnt it obvious that not all characters can use all the 5 elements. And yeah from the raw its now known that Asuma can use a fire jutsu.

This topic was created to find out or guess Shikamaru's, Chouji's, Sia's, Hinata's, Neiji, etc.. their element types (and im not restricting it tp one element type).


Sorry, i jumped the gun... missunderstood what you were trying to do. I thought you meant that "given that character A can only use element B then jutsu C must be element A-based".

I guess this is sort-of what you are intending, but its more about compiling all the information, like recording observations and results? Like an elemental index sorta thing, from which we can deduce information about jutsu and characters etc? It'd have to be pretty big and detailed to be able to make strong conclusions about jutsu, but with time it might get that way...

I guess the limiting factor would be how many people we actually get to see in battle using their techniques [and assuming they're not hiding any "that" jutsus lol].

[sharinganLS]

Sorry, i jumped the gun... missunderstood what you were trying to do. I thought you meant that "given that character A can only use element B then jutsu C must be element A-based".

I guess this is sort-of what you are intending, but its more about compiling all the information, like recording observations and results? Like an elemental index sorta thing, from which we can deduce information about jutsu and characters etc? It'd have to be pretty big and detailed to be able to make strong conclusions about jutsu, but with time it might get that way...

I guess the limiting factor would be how many people we actually get to see in battle using their techniques [and assuming they're not hiding any "that" jutsus lol].

Yeah u read my mind. This is a tough one, thats y i gave an option to guess the elements, it would be interesting to see how this all turns out.

[lucky]

In that case, we know that Maito Gai can use fire(flaming peacock or something vs. kisame clone)... *struggles to think of more*

[BlueChild]

Jiraya can use fire as well (he used it together with Bunta's oil)

[sharinganLS]

Do u guys think Shikamaru uses light(lightning) element in anyway to do his Kagemane no Jutsu, "Shadow Imitation Technique" or is it just a technique that doesn't utilize any element.

[bax]

Do u guys think Shikamaru uses light(lightning) element in anyway to do his Kagemane no Jutsu, "Shadow Imitation Technique" or is it just a technique that doesn't utilize any element.


Aaa... I think if that Kagemane has a nature, it would be Earth, as shadows always stick to the earth...

Here's my opinion about the other Shinobis not mentioned by sharinganLS in the opening post.

Kurenai = water
Jiraiya = fire, earth & wind
Hayate = lightning
Chouji = earth
Gai = fire, earth & lightning
Oro = all???
Itachi = fire & water (perhaps all as well)

Anyway, these are just my opinions

[Xenos]

Jiraiya = fire, earth & wind


Jiraiya and Oro are all.. dont forget them sealing and unsealing Naruto.. 5 point seal (all elements) to do that you need control over all elements.

[bax]

Jiraiya and Oro are all.. dont forget them sealing and unsealing Naruto.. 5 point seal (all elements) to do that you need control over all elements.


Uuppssss.. Forgot about that :p My bad... So to use the 5 elemental seal/unseal, you need all 5 Chakra nature. No wonder it's ranked high. An A-rank level jutsu if I remember (that's the same level as Rasengan).

[sharinganLS]

If Kagemane no Jutsu is based on an element then I think it would be light (lightning) as shadows are formed from light falling on an object.

Or maybe its both earth and lightning

[Zero1986]

Kakashi said that normally Jounins can at least controll 2 elements.
And Kakashi himself said that he can controll all elements, i'm not sure if he can only naturally controll lightning. i'm sure he aslo has another Nature like Yamato and Asuma etc. It's quite hard to tell who's controlling which element.


Ummm I'm pretty sure he only said that in a FAKE spoiler. I don't remember him saying he could control all elements in the manga.

[Xenos]

^^. I think shikamaru is wind *Stears at clounds all day.. airhead to me ^^.

Chouji is water. Im guesing since the body is 70% water based, it would make sence that Choujis clan ability has a natural affinity to water. Gai is fire and wind, dynamic and hot ..lol.

Neji=Wind
Lee=Wind
Garaa=Sand.. lol. ..Wind/Earth
Temari=Wind.. DUH!
TenTen= ?? usless..

I think that the diffent elements also have their levels of affinity to the user and diffrent ways that it can be activated and used by the user. So for instance some might use wind for speed, others for precision cutting (medical or Asumas, nejis and hinatas fighting style). I think over time (most likely in the Anime well see more explanations.

[bax]

Isn't that somewhere someone in the manga said that Wind-Attrbute is rare? So, why are there so many Wind-Natured people?

Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Hyuuga Hanabi]

I think Kakashi's second nature affinity is earth. He used like... 3 earth techniques before he ever used Raikiri.

[The Flash]

I think Kakashi's second nature affinity is earth. He used like... 3 earth techniques before he ever used Raikiri.


yeah kakashi is earth and lightning..

Naruto second element should be earth.. i dont know i just have the feeling that it is.[br]Posted on: September 13, 2006, 07:55:36 PM_________________________________________________

Isn't that somewhere someone in the manga said that Wind-Attrbute is rare? So, why are there so many Wind-Natured people?

Correct me if I'm wrong.


Well it is a rare element ofcourse. you may think so many people have it.. but you see the people who have the wind element..is very strong.

For example like:

-asuma (He is the 12 guardian ninja)
-Neji (this guy is strong, since he is part of the hyuuga)
-Temari(already jounin level...also as i recall she was the strongest out of all the females before time jump),
-Gaara (trust me he is a wind user, go check manga or anime 77. He performs a wind technique)
-Yondaime hokage(most likely is a wind user)
-Naruto :tem

[Xenos]

I think naruto will go fire next. The Kyuubi beasts chakra is definatly fire naruto will probalby go in that direction. Or water.. cuz hes such a crybaby.

[Deathstalker]

Hey, just a couple things... I think Orochimaru and Jairaya both have all 5 elements simply because of their use of the "Five element seal" way back in the Chuunin Exam...

Also, it was mentioned that Shikamaru uses the Shadow element, just as Chouji uses the Light element (err... Kakashi said Yin and Yang, and then listed the two, and that's at least what i extrapolated from that...)

[bax]

I think naruto will go fire next. The Kyuubi beasts chakra is definatly fire naruto will probalby go in that direction. Or water.. cuz hes such a crybaby.


I'll bet on earth instead. But Kyuubi is fire right? So, who knows..

[OGunslinger]

Naruto will be able to controll every element... remember in the beginning it stated that the kyumbi could controll all the elments blah blah then it could cause a mountian to fall and raise a tsunami with a wave of its tail and some crap like that T_T

[bax]

remember in the beginning it stated that the kyumbi could controll all the elments


Which chapter or episode is that?

[Hyuuga Hanabi]

I think he's speaking about the whole "Kyuubi's thrashing tail could destroy mountains and create Tsunami" thing from the prelude.

[lucky]

Perhaps people should try to distinguish between events that are recorded in the chapters and speculation in this thread? Like, if you want to say something is a fact then give a reference to prove it?

Its just that for sharinganLS's compilation to make any sense and be useful we should make it clear what we know for sure. It may be that he compile's 'speculated' data too, its just that we should avoid getting mixed up as to what's proven and whats not.

For example, we dont know for sure that kyuubi is fire - at least ive never seen a reference to the manga to prove it. From the kyuubi mythology, and given kyuubi is red in colour etc, it seems likely, but until we can observe an event in the manga that confirms our speculation we dont know for sure.

An idea would be to list information in colours to represent whether it has been proven? For example sharinganLS could list proven facts in green font, whereas unproven speculation could be listed in orange or something.

This proposal may be a little idealistic, but i think it would certainly make sharinganLS's list more credible and useful.

[sharinganLS]

Yes thanks Lucky for ur consideration. I woudl really appreciate it if u guys could state whether it is proven or it is just a guess. The color idea is excellent however if its too much of a trouble then just state whether its a guess or its fact. I will TRY to compile a data book at the end of the discussions.



Also, it was mentioned that Shikamaru uses the Shadow element, just as Chouji uses the Light element (err... Kakashi said Yin and Yang, and then listed the two, and that's at least what i extrapolated from that...)

could u plz telll me the chapter or episode no. I would prefer a chapter number cause chapter is more pure and reliable then an episode but if u hav the episode no then thats fine.

I personally think that there isnt any shadow element (unless he is combining two elements to create it) cause Kakshi clearly states that there are only 5 elements (earth, fire,wind, water, light).
http://groups.msn.com/NarutoMangaReturns/volume35.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=24041

[Deathstalker]

could u plz telll me the chapter or episode no. I would prefer a chapter number cause chapter is more pure and reliable then an episode but if u hav the episode no then thats fine.

It's chapter 316, page 9, looking at it again it isn't exactly clear, but when Naruto begins asking about Shikimaru and Chouji's techniques as well as medical ninjitsu, Kakashi says it will take too much time and Yamato replies "what if you just start with Yin and Yang Nature again Kakashi?" which is where i figured that Chouji and Shikamaru use either Yin or Yang jutsu, and since Chouji's doesn't really look all to shadowy... i guessed light, but that's just a guess...

[sharinganLS]

http://groups.msn.com/NarutoMangaReturns/volume35.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=24054

yup I saw it, Yamato says " why dont u tell him abt the physical recomposition of "yin" and "yang" another time".

Physical recomposition as stated a little later on in chapter 321 is another word for chakra manipulation where the user manipulates his/her chakra and spatial recomposition is form manipulation where the user discharges his chakra into a certain desired form.

In chapter 316 Kakashi tells naruto abt the kekei genkai and how u manipulate to elements to create a new one. Now if we replace physical recompostion with chakra manipulation then this is wat we get. " why dont u tell him abt the chakra manipulation of "yin" and "yang" another time". So that means that the nara clan and the akimivhi clan manipulate teh chakra of yin and yang. Now we dont know wat yin and yang is. It could be light and dark (but there is no dark element) so we dont know untill kakashi explains to him the meaning of yin and yang.

All we know is that Baika no Jutsu and Kage Mane no Jutsu are some how related and that they both use physical recomposition which is chakra manipulation of the "yin" and "yang".

[bax]

All we know is that Baika no Jutsu and Kage Mane no Jutsu are some how related and that they both use physical recomposition which is chakra manipulation of the "yin" and "yang".


I'm going to put my opinion. Well, Yin and Yang usually refers to the basic of this world. It means that every thing has it's opposite. And it can be used for expressing the core of all things. That is what I know. So, until Kishi revealed that the Yin and Yang have a specific meaning, I would make my prediction and say that what Yamato means is that Kakashi doesn't needs to go all the way explaining the very core/basics of physical recomposition.

And with Naruto's stupidity, it could very well take a VEEEEERY long time...

[sharinganLS]

hmm very interesting, so "yin" and "yang" is just a pun for "core". I never thought of it that way. Thanks baxteristic.

[bax]

hmm very interesting, so "yin" and "yang" is just a pun for "core". I never thought of it that way. Thanks baxteristic.


No problem... It's actually originated from ancient Chinese

Here you can find the relationship about Yin Yang with the 5 elements (although in Chinese the fifth element is metal, not lightning. And no wind either, but there is wood).

http://www.chinesefortunecalendar.com/5EBasic.htm

Here is the link where my theory based on. It's written there "It's the essence of nature, where everything is in a perpetual state of change". (Try right clicking on this webpage :p)

http://www.feng-shui-institute.org/yinyang.htm

[grusifix]

Extremely interesting view baxteristic.

Btw, Yamato says Ch315/p13 "Generally, everyone has chakra that fits one of those categories". Does that "generally" (not all) reference to Bloodline Limit?

[bax]

Btw, Yamato says Ch315/p13 "Generally, everyone has chakra that fits one of those categories". Does that "generally" (not all) reference to Bloodline Limit?


I don't think so. I believe what Yamato means is that everyone has at least one Chakra Affinity to one of the five elements, whether they realize it or not. He just given an example about the Uchiha clan. Uchiha = fire affinity, thus they can do fire jutsus very well compared to others on the same level (perhaps with more efficiency). So, it doesn't mean people outside the Uchiha can't use fire jutsus.

Bloodline limits is created when you can control two elements simutaneosly (chapter 316). Wood = water + earth, for example. But since they are somewhat genetics, for my part, I would say that the family that posses a Kekkei Genkai, like Haku (Hyouton user), can use both two elements by default. They only needs to strengthen the jutsus. That's why, they looks like they are possessing an ice affinity, where it really is just water + wind.

[Deathstalker]

Um... just kinda throwing it out there because it's kinda been bugging me... are bloodline limits always passed on? I ask this because like... Tsunade doesn't seem to have one, while she is descended from the 1st (might be wrong... i suck with facts like that). Also, I remember Haku kinda ice-exploded his house, but if his parents had the bloodline limit... you'd assume they would know it was coming and know at least the basics of protecting themselves... but aparently not.

Sry if it's a bit off topic, but since we're on the topic temporarily... i figured i'd ask.

[bax]

are bloodline limits always passed on? I ask this because like... Tsunade doesn't seem to have one, while she is descended from the 1st


Tsunade is the grandchild of Shodai. I mean she is the true heiress unless Kishi plans to do another plot-bombing later on.

Bloodline are passed through the generations. Put Uchiha and Byakugan. All of them has the bloodline limit Sharingan and Byakugan. Perhaps what is different is that, when they first activate their powers. We have seen Itachi and Sasuke activated the Sharingan at different age. Perhaps due to talents or experience or both. But, there is no hint suggesting such thing for the Hyuuga's Byakugan (although I might missed the part sayingthis).

For Mokuton, I still confused myself... Ultimately, there are two ways to view it.. Kakashi said if you combine two elements at the same time, it creates another element, and that is called Kekkei Genkai. But when I looked back at the databooks about Shodai and Mokuton Jutsu, nothing said that it is a kekkei Genkai...

You can find them here...
http://mangahelpers.com/forum/index.php?topic=848.0
http://mangahelpers.com/forum/index.php?topic=941.0

[segua]

Tsunade is the grandchild of Shodai. I mean she is the true heiress unless Kishi plans to do another plot-bombing later on.

Bloodline are passed through the generations. Put Uchiha and Byakugan. All of them has the bloodline limit Sharingan and Byakugan. Perhaps what is different is that, when they first activate their powers. We have seen Itachi and Sasuke activated the Sharingan at different age. Perhaps due to talents or experience or both. But, there is no hint suggesting such thing for the Hyuuga's Byakugan (although I might missed the part sayingthis).

For Mokuton, I still confused myself... Ultimately, there are two ways to view it.. Kakashi said if you combine two elements at the same time, it creates another element, and that is called Kekkei Genkai. But when I looked back at the databooks about Shodai and Mokuton Jutsu, nothing said that it is a kekkei Genkai...

You can find them here...
http://mangahelpers.com/forum/index.php?topic=848.0
http://mangahelpers.com/forum/index.php?topic=941.0


That's also an issue that I'm having too. Is it really considered a blood-limit? If it is, shouldn't Tsunade be capable. But then again, you have Yamato who got Shodaime's blood cells (?) spliced with his own thus giving Yamato the ability to use mokuton.

[The Flash]

That's also an issue that I'm having too. Is it really considered a blood-limit? If it is, shouldn't Tsunade be capable. But then again, you have Yamato who got Shodaime's blood cells (?) spliced with his own thus giving Yamato the ability to use mokuton.


well no

Did you know the first and second hokage were brothers? Yes and guess what Nidaime the younger brother of Shodaime didnt have the blood line limit.... even though they were brothers by blood.

[bax]

I stumbled upon something interesting just now... Perhaps some of you heard this, but I just want to post it...

In Naruto the elements are fire, wind, water, earth and lightning.
Actually, the default elements in Japanese is earth(chi), fire(hi), water(sui), wind(fu) and void(ku - also refers to sky).

See here : http://www.answers.com/topic/five-elements-japanese-philosophy

In Japan, pagodas are built based on these 5 elements. In this order from the bottom : earth, water, fire, wind and void (sky). I read somewhere that the higher the element, the stronger it is compared to those below it.

Of course, in Naruto, there is no void, but lightning. That is not the case. Kishi is known to adapt into legends and myths to create Naruto. What is amusing is here : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akatsuki_%28Naruto%29#Orochimaru

[sharinganLS]

Not everybody in a clan or not alll offsprings poses the Kekkei Genki of the original founder. For example not all members of the Uchiha clan had sharingans. Also make note that the first Hokage could have been the first been to be able to combine the two elements, meaning he would be the original (founder) of a new kekkei genkei and hence his brother doesnt have the blood line limit. Also Y does Tsunade not have the Shodaime's Kekkei Genkai? I think its because of the same reason y not all members of the uchiha clan can activate the sharingan. She does not poss the exact blood genetics that her grandfather did.

In addition, I think that the inherietance of the bloodline limit depends on the number of generations that progress and also the number of impure(outside breeding) members that are born. Wat I mean by this is that the if a member of the Uchiha clan marries an outsider than their offspring would be impure meaning the chances of having another sharingan offspring is decreased. And its the same with the shodaime's case, since he didnt have another member of the opposite sex who possesed the same bloodline limit that he did; the possibility that his children would acquire his kekkei Genken is really low.

Wat Im saying is if that if one of the partners in a marriage doesnt posses the bloodline limit than the possibilty that the offspring might inheriet his parent kekei Genkei is really really lower due to impure breeding. This may explain y Shodaime was so unique and that no one else possed his Kekkei Genki (excluding Yamato who has his cells) not even his kids or grandkids.

Also not Haku was a rear case, although his mother married an outsider (doesnt posses the genes for the kekkei genkei) he was still born with it. Remember I said the possibility is low which means that there is still a small chance of the offspring possessing the kekkei Genkei. We also see how the mother was shocked and how unhappy she was when she saw her son posses her ability. Maybe she married an outsider on porpose so that her offspring could be born normal (without the genes that posses the forbidden Kekkei Genkei).

This is wat I think and wat makes most sense to me.

[segua]

Not everybody in a clan or not alll offsprings poses the Kekkei Genki of the original founder. For example not all members of the Uchiha clan had sharingans. Also make note that the first Hokage could have been the first been to be able to combine the two elements, meaning he would be the original (founder) of a new kekkei genkei and hence his brother doesnt have the blood line limit. Also Y does Tsunade not have the Shodaime's Kekkei Genkai? I think its because f the same reason y not all members of teh uchiha clan can activate the sharingan. She have not posses the exact blood genetics that her grandfather did.

In addition, I think that the inherietance of the bloodline limit depends on the number of generations that progress and also the number of impure(outside breeding) members that are born. Wat I mean by this is that the if a member of the Uchiha clan marries an outsider than their offspring would be impure meaning the chances of having another sharingan offspring is decreased. And its the same with the shodaime's case, since he didnt have another member of the opposite sex who possesed the same bloodline limit that he did; the possibility that his children would acquire his kekkei Genken is really low.

Wat Im saying is if that if one of the partners in a marriage doesnt posses the bloodline limit than the possibilty that the offspring might inheriet his parent kekei Genkei is really really lower due to impure breeding. This may explain y Shodaime was so unique and that no one else possed his Kekkei Genki (excluding Yamato who has his cells) not even his kids or grandkids.

Also not Haku was a rear case, although his mother married an outsider (doesnt pooses the genes for the kekkei genkei) he was still born with it. Rember I said teh possibility is low which means that there is still a small chnace of he offspring possessing the kekkei Genkei. We also see how the mother was shocked and how unhappy she was when she saw her son posses her ability. Maybe she married an outsider on porpose so that her offspring could be born normal (without the genes that posses the forbidden Kekkei Genkei).

This is wat I think and wat makes most sense to me.


That was what I was thinking too. Kinda like a pedrigree v a mixed-breed. But you know, when Sandaime was fighting against the Shodaime, Nidaime and Orochimaru, when the Shodaime used Mokuton, the Sandaime said, if I recall correctly, that it was a "secret" jutsu only the first knew. (I'm kinda puzzled if it related to that ninjutsu or the use of mokuton.) This brings me to the question, what is considered a blood-limit ninjutsu v. a secret ninjutsu?




well no

Did you know the first and second hokage were brothers? Yes and guess what Nidaime the younger brother of Shodaime didnt have the blood line limit.... even though they were brothers by blood.


I at least considered that much but you could say that the Nidaime favored water over mokuton. It could be that the Shodaime excelled at using both earth and water elements while the Nidaime excelled at water only.

But you know what, with these types of discussion, we could have a better respect for those that are capable of using elementals. To combine two different element into one attack, it is already very talented, but to create a new nature, that is considered superbly talented.

[sharinganLS]

I believe all bloodline limits are considered secret jutsu's(thats y we have anbus to keep the secret intact and burn the dead bodies that might give away the secrets) of a clan or in Shodaime's case one person since he was the founder and only member of the secret technique. Also I think Nidaime doesn't have the Kekei Genkei that Shodaime posses because they are just brothers and although they might have similar genes (cause they share relations) they arent indentically the same. If they were identical twins (like me and my bro although we r freternal) then they might have share the same genes and they bought could hav gotten the Kekkei Genkai. If the shodaime isnt the founder of the move than we need info on his parents whether they both possed it or just one did and the other possesd affinity to water jutsu's. Hence Shodaime could have turned to be like his father/mother (which ever had the bloodline limit gene) and his brother has turned out to be similar to the other parent (the non-bloodline limit gene).

[bax]

You sound like a biologist sharinganLS :p

You said pretty well. I'm just curious about the possibility of the emergence of Kekkei Genkai. In Naruto's history, there should exist other people than Shodai who can fuse two Nautred-Chakra simultaneously to create wood. So, if Shodai is not the only one (or not the first) to do this, there must exist some people outside known set of people thus far that can use Mokuton. If I'm about to make a wild guest, Zetsu knows how to use Mokuton.

[segua]

I believe all bloodline limits are considered secret jutsu's(thats y we have anbus to keep the secret intact and burn the dead bodies that might give away the secrets) of a clan or in Shodaime's case one person since he was the founder and only member of the secret technique. Also I think Nidaime doesn't have the Kekei Genkei that Shodaime posses because they are just brothers and although they might have similar genes (cause they share relations) they arent indentically the same. If they were identical twins (like me and my bro although we r freternal) then they might have share the same genes and they bought could hav gotten the Kekkei Genkai. If the shodaime isnt the founder of the move than we need info on his parents whether they both possed it or just one did and the other possesd affinity to water jutsu's. Hence Shodaime could have turned to be like his father/mother (which ever had the bloodline limit gene) and his brother has turned out to be similar to the other parent (the non-bloodline limit gene).


Also a very good point indeed. That is also information that we need to find out. Another question would be, if there are any descendents of the Shodaime, which there are, how well do they use earth and/or water techniques? Basically, to what extent or degree? Another question would be, couldn't the Nidaime also use mokuton to a certain degree, though it may not be as high as the Shodaime? I mean they were brothers. I'm sure that the Shodaime would've taught the Nidaime to use it but then again, this is also quite questionable also because it's just speculation.

You are saying that a secret is to protect/hide how that particular jutsu was done, right? That could also be the case for the MS for the Uchihas and the Kaiten and other jutsu that the Head family has.

[sharinganLS]

You sound like a biologist sharinganLS :p



:smile-big :smile-big Oh my Im a scientist (actually me a nd my bro study comp Sci, SharinganLS L and S. some clues.)

Yup ur right, there is a posiibilty that there is another mokuten user however the possibility is really low since u not only need to have affinity to those elements but u also need to be very very very talented inorder to combine those two talents. We dont know for certain wat Zetsu's elements or his moves r however ur right by judging from his appearance he does look like a good candidate for a mokuton user. And he is also talented, he has to be if he is an Akastuki S-Rank ninja.

[bax]

Oh well... If that's the case, then by cross-macthing the original 5 elements, we can get 10 more elements including wood and ice.

Look at below, and tell me what elements would these numbers represents
That should averagely do it :smile-big I'm bad at SACII

Earth Fire Wind Water Lightning
-----------------------------------------------------------
Earth x (1) (2) Wood (3)
-----------------------------------------------------------
Fire (1) x (4) (5) (6)
-----------------------------------------------------------
Wind (2) (4) x Ice (7)
-----------------------------------------------------------
Water Wood (5) Ice x (8)
-----------------------------------------------------------
Lightning (3) (6) (7) (8) x
-----------------------------------------------------------

[sharinganLS]

Nice table, but Im not sure of one thing, r u completely 100% sure that if u combine earth and water that it will give u wood? When two elements combine is the outcome always going to be the same for evry user (for the shodaime and Yamato it was wood but for another user it could give another output). I mean it can give an element like mud. But ur rite for now its just wood.

[bax]

Nice table, but Im not sure of one thing, r u completely 100% sure that if u combine earth and water that it will give u wood? When two elements combine is the outcome always going to be the same for evry user (for the shodaime and Yamato it was wood but for another user it could give another output). I mean it can give an element like mud. But ur rite for now its just wood.


I'm thinking that too. But, it's not mud, but probably Clay ---> Deidara... (or should it be fire + earth?)
Well, we got to use what we have on our hand..

[sharinganLS]

yeah ur rite for now we should leave it as wood only.

[lucky]

Not everybody in a clan or not alll offsprings poses the Kekkei Genki of the original founder. For example not all members of the Uchiha clan had sharingans. Also make note that the first Hokage could have been the first been to be able to combine the two elements, meaning he would be the original (founder) of a new kekkei genkei and hence his brother doesnt have the blood line limit. Also Y does Tsunade not have the Shodaime's Kekkei Genkai? I think its because f the same reason y not all members of teh uchiha clan can activate the sharingan. She have not posses the exact blood genetics that her grandfather did.

In addition, I think that the inherietance of the bloodline limit depends on the number of generations that progress and also the number of impure(outside breeding) members that are born. Wat I mean by this is that the if a member of the Uchiha clan marries an outsider than their offspring would be impure meaning the chances of having another sharingan offspring is decreased. And its the same with the shodaime's case, since he didnt have another member of the opposite sex who possesed the same bloodline limit that he did; the possibility that his children would acquire his kekkei Genken is really low.

Wat Im saying is if that if one of the partners in a marriage doesnt posses the bloodline limit than the possibilty that the offspring might inheriet his parent kekei Genkei is really really lower due to impure breeding. This may explain y Shodaime was so unique and that no one else possed his Kekkei Genki (excluding Yamato who has his cells) not even his kids or grandkids.

Also not Haku was a rear case, although his mother married an outsider (doesnt pooses the genes for the kekkei genkei) he was still born with it. Rember I said teh possibility is low which means that there is still a small chnace of he offspring possessing the kekkei Genkei. We also see how the mother was shocked and how unhappy she was when she saw her son posses her ability. Maybe she married an outsider on porpose so that her offspring could be born normal (without the genes that posses the forbidden Kekkei Genkei).

This is wat I think and wat makes most sense to me.


YES!!! Agreeeeeed!

It makes sense to me too.

Finally someone is putting real emphasis on genetics, breeding and probability into the debate about bloodline limits.

Its exactly what i have been thinking for a while, but never put into words.

Some quotes from the manga:
Bloodlines are based on geneaology - "Deep blood lineage... superior geneaology..." ch25 pg 13.
Not all members of a clan get the bloodline - "The sharingan is a special physical condition that only appears in a select few members of the Uchiha clan" ch 12 pg 7

The creation of a bloodline would then be attributed to the mutation of genes. The mutation of a gene enables the person to be capable of something like combining elements - not the other way round [at least this is what we know for the moment, we've never seen anything to contradict it]. The mutation of genes would also cause weird biological differences like sharingan eyes. It was said that sharingan is an offshoot of byukagan - mutation of genes. Exact same principle as evolution.

Sorry this post is a bit late, i started it and then came back later :eyeroll

[segua]

(Off-topic)
You know, I think that sometimes, we are just reading a bit too deeply into this stuff. It's nice to discuss these things and speculate but I think there are other things that are much more important than manga.


Well I wouldn't quite say mutation because it gives off a strong denotation. There are many factors to consider also. I think that the Byukagan and Sharingan serve different purpose. I'll go into this a little bit later to see what everyone else thinks.

[bax]

Wat Im saying is if that if one of the partners in a marriage doesnt posses the bloodline limit than the possibilty that the offspring might inheriet his parent kekei Genkei is really really lower due to impure breeding. This may explain y Shodaime was so unique and that no one else possed his Kekkei Genki (excluding Yamato who has his cells) not even his kids or grandkids.

Also not Haku was a rear case, although his mother married an outsider (doesnt pooses the genes for the kekkei genkei) he was still born with it. Rember I said teh possibility is low which means that there is still a small chnace of he offspring possessing the kekkei Genkei. We also see how the mother was shocked and how unhappy she was when she saw her son posses her ability. Maybe she married an outsider on porpose so that her offspring could be born normal (without the genes that posses the forbidden Kekkei Genkei).


That is why in the first place, there exists inconsistensy in bloodline limits. I'll fortify your points...

The only thing we doesn't know is how the person who creates a new Kekkei Genkai "mutates" his/her genetics. If I could say, (remembering my biology lessons way back at school), normally, if something is mutating the genes, it would be mostly affecting the resessive genes, which is more passive. So, it's possible, if the marriage is from a pure bloodline of family, if the children doesn't inherit resessive genes from both of their parents, they will not inherit the "mutated" genes, thus making them incapable of receiving Kekkei Genkai. And it is a fact that even if the children inherits the resessive genes, the genes would change to suit his/her body or mutate to other form. From science view, this may cause Sharingan and Byakugan exist.

So, this would explain why the bloodline of Uchiha and Hyuuga changed their eyes..

EDIT: Notes that if the passive resessive genes are also inherited, it could be surpressed by dominant genes, so, a person can be a carriage of the Kekkei Genkai genes without actually having a Kekkei Genkai...

But honestly, I think this is gonna be more like a rocket science for most people if we talk too much into biology. Let keep this simple...

[sharinganLS]

Notes that if the passive resessive genes are also inherited, it could be surpressed by dominant genes, so, a person can be a carriage of the Kekkei Genkai genes without actually having a Kekkei Genkai...[/b]

Yes that may be y not all the uchiha members have sharigan as it lies domint within them(the kekkei genki gene just barely exists within them).

[UzumakiRoman]

i'm sure Kakashi is lightning and earth(because that's the element he used to fuse with his summoning jutsu).
we know the third was earth and fire as well as Jiraiya, i'm sure Orochimaru is earth i'm guessing he is also fire(fire jutsu on Naruto in chunnin exam).

as for chouji and the others most of their jutsu are not based on elemental chakra, but on the yin yang nature of chakra which Kakashi and Yamato hinted to but they didn't want to confuse Naruto.

[segua]

Doujutsu are another interesting thing. Is it really just genetics? How come other villages wanted to get the Bakyugan? Is it just limited to one particular clan or could other people have potential of learning it? My point being, isn't it easier for someone who has a doujutsu to develop a new doujutsu? By using the old doujutsu as a layout, a new doujutsu could be model similarly yet different from the old one. But how it is possible, it makes be wonder if there is something much more than just genetics alone. Then again you could say that if another village got a hold of a dead Hyuga from the Head family, they could understand how it works to create a doujutsu that is similar to the Bakyugan but is uniquely different.

But you know, sometimes a recessive gene might not be fully supressed and these are rare cases. Take for example wavy hair. One parent has straight hair while another has curly hair. Just for the sake of discussion that the curly hair gene was dominant and the straight hair recessive. Say those two had 5 children, two have curly hair, two have straight hair and the fifth one has wavy hair.

[sharinganLS]

i'm sure Kakashi is lightning and earth(because that's the element he used to fuse with his summoning jutsu).
we know the third was earth and fire as well as Jiraiya, i'm sure Orochimaru is earth i'm guessing he is also fire(fire jutsu on Naruto in chunnin exam).

as for chouji and the others most of their jutsu are not based on elemental chakra, but on the yin yang nature of chakra which Kakashi and Yamato hinted to but they didn't want to confuse Naruto.
If u r saying that he combines the two elements to summon his nin-dogs then ur wrong cause summoning doesn't have anything to do with elements. Anybody who has chakra and has signed the contract can summon (u dont need to combine elements.)

Maybe u mean something else and I have interpreted it in a wrong way. Sorry sometimes I have problems understanding.

[br]Posted on: September 15, 2006, 01:53:00 PM_________________________________________________

Doujutsu are another interesting thing. Is it really just genetics? How come other villages wanted to get the Bakyugan? Is it just limited to one particular clan or could other people have potential of learning it? My point being, isn't it easier for someone who has a doujutsu to develop a new doujutsu? By using the old doujutsu as a layout, a new doujutsu could be model similarly yet different from the old one. But how it is possible, it makes be wonder if there is something much more than just genetics alone. Then again you could say that if another village got a hold of a dead Hyuga from the Head family, they could understand how it works to create a doujutsu that is similar to the Bakyugan but is uniquely different.

But you know, sometimes a recessive gene might not be fully supressed and these are rare cases. Take for example wavy hair. One parent has straight hair while another has curly hair. Just for the sake of discussion that the curly hair gene was dominant and the straight hair recessive. Say those two had 5 children, two have curly hair, two have straight hair and the fifth one has wavy hair.


Well u cant really learn doujutsu, u have to be born with it. Thats y kakashi cant copy Haku's moves and we all know that kakashi is a genius when it comes to copying and learning new moves. The Sharigan and the Byakugan cannot be copied; the only way for another village to learn or to gain the abilities of a Kekkei Genkai is by doing wat Oro did, which is take the genes and spilse them into experimental subjects(infants) or by doing wat Rin did surgically implant the eyes into the otehr persons body. However the later one isnt that effective cause like Itachi says "U may have the eyes but u dont have the body(blood) of an Uchiha" by body(blood) Itachi actually means genes.

I personally feel that bloodline limits is related to genetics.

[lucky]

Well u cant really learn doujutsu, u have to be born with it. Thats y kakashi cant copy Haku's moves and we all know that kakashi is a genius when it comes to copying and learning new moves. The Sharigan and the Byakugan cannot be copied; the only way for another village to learn or to gain the abilities of a Kekkei Genkai is by doing wat Oro did, which is take the genes and spilse them into experimental subjects(infants) or by doing wat Rin did surgically implant the eyes into the otehr persons body. However the later one isnt that effective cause like Itachi says "U may have the eyes but u dont have the body(blood) of an Uchiha" by body(blood) Itachi actually means genes.

I personally feel that bloodline limits is related to genetics.


Yep yep, agreed. Doujutsu are techniques centered around the bloodline, which is centered around ones genetics/biology, which is decided at birth or through surgery.

[Deathstalker]

Well, it would make sense for the bloodline limits to be based off of genetics, especially since through careful gene manipulation Oro was able to create Yamato, and it makes sense that if another village was able to capture the Sharigan or the Byakugan they could extract the genes and then genetically engineer a person to have them.

Taking the example of Yamato, if i recall correctly, Orochimaru was suprised that one had survived or been successful (can't remember which) but if it was successful, then it would make alot of sense because in genetic engineering, at one point you insert the genes into a bacteria to hold the gene, but the genes aren't always taken up by the bacteria, meaning that the odds of actually getting the genes is low, so it would be unlikely that if Oro made a bunch of Yamatos that any of them would have Mokuton, but by some stroke of luck, he did.

This does kinda bring up a sub-question that is semi-important for the genetics discussion... what exact technological level are they at in Naruto, since it's always been unclear, but they do have walkie talkies and such... if it's modern day (ish) then this is entirely likely of an explaination, if not... well... then it's not...

(god i hope some of that made sense...)

[segua]

Well if you talk about using it and such yea but what about creation? I won't disagree with you that it's genetic because it really comes down to compatibility issues and such at the cellular level but more so at the genetic level.

That is also another point Deathstalker. It seems it's kinda like Final Fantasy where you have a mix of both modern day technologies coupled with swords and such playing on legend and myth.

[bax]

Doujutsu are another interesting thing. Is it really just genetics? How come other villages wanted to get the Bakyugan? Is it just limited to one particular clan or could other people have potential of learning it? My point being, isn't it easier for someone who has a doujutsu to develop a new doujutsu? By using the old doujutsu as a layout, a new doujutsu could be model similarly yet different from the old one. But how it is possible, it makes be wonder if there is something much more than just genetics alone. Then again you could say that if another village got a hold of a dead Hyuga from the Head family, they could understand how it works to create a doujutsu that is similar to the Bakyugan but is uniquely different.


To alter someone who has a doujutsu, to create another doujutsu, it would mean to alter their whole genetic structure. Not to mention the difficulties of it. That is why Oro decided to just take over Sasuke's body. If not, he would do his sick researches on how to create doujutsu on himself. Or the easier way is through surgery then pass it down through generations.



But you know, sometimes a recessive gene might not be fully supressed and these are rare cases. Take for example wavy hair. One parent has straight hair while another has curly hair. Just for the sake of discussion that the curly hair gene was dominant and the straight hair recessive. Say those two had 5 children, two have curly hair, two have straight hair and the fifth one has wavy hair.


That is why in the Uchiha clan, there exist people who can't use the Sharingan. The Kekkei Genkai genes are passive or do not exist at all. Although it could be awaken through some other methods but not naturally.

[UzumakiRoman]

If u r saying that he combines the two elements to summon his nin-dogs then ur wrong cause summoning doesn't have anything to do with elements. Anybody who has chakra and has signed the contract can summon (u dont need to combine elements.)

Maybe u mean something else and I have interpreted it in a wrong way. Sorry sometimes I have problems understanding.


your right.. that's not what i'm saying. i know elements have nothing to do with summoning. what i'm trying to say is that most likely he chose to mix his dog summoning jutsu with the earth element against Zabuza because that was one of the elements he has an affinity for.

but to give another example if(and please see i'm saying IF) Kakashi had an affinity for wind natured chakra then when he summoned the dogs the wind nature may help to increase the dogs speed helping them to attack faster or something to that effect.. anyway the point is that the naured chakra helped in the attack.. in kakashi case against Zabuza because the summoning was mixed with an earth element the dogs were able to attack from underground!

[sharinganLS]

Yup ur rite Kakashi does have an affinity towards earth element. We even see him use it against Sasuke when he tests them on the basics (the bell survival training).

[Hyuuga Hanabi]

And when he summoned the dogs against Zabuza, he used an earth release to do it.

[bax]

That brings me to other question though....

Well, if an element affinity is needed to execute a jutsu that is connected to that particular element, what would become of Sharingan user :blink. Let say for example, Sasuke has only Fire and Lightning affinity, copied a Suiton jutsu. Can Sasuke uses that jutsu? If he can, that would be against the principle of element affinity because Sasuke doesn't have affinity to water. If can uses that jutsu because of his a bloodline limit, that's cheap :notrust. Or does Sasuke only copy but can't use it...

[Hyuuga Hanabi]

I think it's either... You an copy the technique, since the Sharingan can see chakra, it might be able to let you copy the ability to change to the technique's nature since we saw Kakashi copy Zabuza's every movement. It also might be that everyone is able to use all "elemental release" techniques. They just might have a harder time releasing chakra of a nature other then their own. Kakashi didn't bring to question that "Sasuke can use Fire nd Lightning" He said that he can use "More then just lightning." We know he's used fire techniques, but they were all elemental release. Sasuke had a hard time learning Goukakyuu when he was little, but he didn't have -that-(Nature manipulation training) hard of a time.

[CheckMate]

I think the chakra type does not strictly limit the user's abiliy to perform any other jutsus.
As for the uchiha, they have the access to use the fire elemental techinique to its full potential.
and even if they have the fire chakra type, it doesnt mean they cannot use earth or water technique. they can, but limited.
well in some cases, there are some types of jutsu they might not be able to use at all

[bax]

@ you_know_who
I think that same thing too but all these discussion about Chakra natures sometimes confused me... BTW, in your post, you are implying that there are certain limits to someone who doesn't have an affinity for an element to use jutsus from that element, right? I believe you're thinking the same as me, about the efficiency of an elemental jutsu performed by someone who does posses the affinity and by someone who doesn't...

[Faust]

My views on elemental affinity often change from time to time as I notice more and more things. First I think everyone only has one elemental affinity. Yeah so they tell us that Sasuke is both lightning and fire, but I believe what it meant was that he was able to use both types of elemental jutsu rather than having his chakra having both traits of fire and lightning. An example of this is Kakashi. When we were first introduced to elemental chakra (Chp. 315) Kakashi infused his chakra with the special chakra-induced paper revealing his type to be lightning. Yet we also know that Kakashi is able to use many types of elemental jutsus other than lightning. I guess I'm agreeing to an extent to what "you_know_who" posted. I believe having an elemental affinity doesn't restrict anyone from learning any jutsu rather it affects how much training is needed to master it. I'll likely change my views again though seeing how translations can be iffy sometimes as many Japanese words/kanji can be interpreted many different ways and if Kishimoto introduces some new (and probably confusing) things about chakra dynamics.

[lucky]

@ you_know_who
I believe you're thinking the same as me, about the efficiency of an elemental jutsu performed by someone who does posses the affinity and by someone who doesn't...


Agreed.



I believe having an elemental affinity doesn't restrict anyone from learning any jutsu rather it affects how much training is needed to master it.


Agreed.

From my theory:



Theory: Chakra Affinity
A chakra affinity is, quite straightforwardly, a ninjas natural compatibility with a particular mode of chakra manipulation or control, to be modeled as higher and more easily trained conversion efficiency. This would include NatureManipulation [elemental]...


My theory presents a general approach to affinities, suggesting that non-elemental affinities also exist [which would explain people like shikamaru, neji, chouji] but this does not affect its stance on elemental affinities. So, the efficiency is naturally higher [say, prior to shinobi training] and more easily trained - so the character progresses more quickly in that field. This is relative to the 'average' user so to speak, meaning that to have an 'affinity' means you are particularly good at that task compared to the average. You dont need an affinity to be capable of a certain task - it just makes things easier and more effective [higher efficiency/higher power].

[aszure]

these are the known ones that i can list off the top of my head that have been shown in the manga, note that none of the huga clan have actually shown an element, it's just chakra manipulation, most of the one's who were genin's before the tikmeskip haven't actually shown any elemental jutsu's that we know of (note that we don't know if shikamaru's shadow manip or chouji's expansion are elemental jutsus)

naruto, wind
sasuke, fire, lightning
Kakashi, water, lightning, earth
asuma, fire, wind
sandaime, fire, earth
yamato, water, earth bloodlimit wood
haku water, wind bloodlimit ice
shodaime water, earth bloodlimit wood
itachi fire
kisame water
orochimaru earth, fire
gara earth, wind bloodlimit sand
tenmari wind
jiraiya earth, fire
tsunade not shown
sakura not shown
tenten not shown
lee not shown
chouji not shown
huga neiji, not shown
shikamaru not shown
shino not shown
hinata not shown
zabuza water

[CheckMate]

@ you_know_who
I think that same thing too but all these discussion about Chakra natures sometimes confused me... BTW, in your post, you are implying that there are certain limits to someone who doesn't have an affinity for an element to use jutsus from that element, right? I believe you're thinking the same as me, about the efficiency of an elemental jutsu performed by someone who does posses the affinity and by someone who doesn't...


Yep.. i have just re-read some of your posts above, and assume that we both have some opinions

Though i am pretty sure sharingan can copy almost all B-rank jutsus and some of A-rank jutsus (and execute it!!).

[kunai-knight]

Gaara's bloodline limit is sand? Wouldnt really consider it a bloodline....but does raise the question as to what elemental is sand? Is it a fusion of two elements or is it earth or is it some unkown type thats not an element??? :s

officially confuzzled...

[Deathstalker]

Just saying it again... it's very likely that Orochimaru has all 5 element types (as well as jaraya) because of the "5 element seal" that they both did during the Chuunin Exam. I mean... what other than 5 different element types could the 5 element seal be?

[bax]

Gaara's bloodline limit is sand? Wouldnt really consider it a bloodline....but does raise the question as to what elemental is sand? Is it a fusion of two elements or is it earth or is it some unkown type thats not an element??? :s


If you ask me about the elements of sand, of common sense, I would say wind+earth.. But, I read in wikipedia that sand falls into Futon or wind (assuming that wikipedia is right and all sand jutsus are in the same element). I don't think Gaara's sand jutsus are bloodline limit... They are more like secret techniques... Even in the databooks not mention his abilities as Kekkei Genkai
http://mangahelpers.com/forum/index.php?topic=936.0



Just saying it again... it's very likely that Orochimaru has all 5 element types (as well as jaraya) because of the "5 element seal" that they both did during the Chuunin Exam. I mean... what other than 5 different element types could the 5 element seal be?


So it was you.. I want to quote it before but I'm too lazy to search forwho wrote about it.. Thanks.. Yup, oro should has at least all 5 elements.. although I doubt he has mastered all of them to the highest level...

[kunai-knight]

Oro probably has over 5 elements (well not elements but jutsu um..type possibilities? ) if you consider that snake jutsu's arnt really categorized under and element. Also that weird ability to move and alter his body in such a snake like way i hardly see that as elementals. So Oro has far more capabilities that just the 5 elements we are exposed to.

But thats raises a fair question as well. Do you suppose that the 5 elements are the hardest to try to master? Or perhaps its the other forms (like the ones needed to perform Shikamaru's shadow bind jutsu or chouji multi-size jutsu). Personally i feel that its a lot easier to learn the other types than it is to learn the elements- simply because soo much stress has been on how difficult it is to master the elements - and not soo much has been said on the other types :oh

[bax]

For Oro's jutsu, I don't think it is related to elements.. More like just spatial recomposition to me... Some jutsus don't have any element working with it.. For example, Bunshin no Jutsu. You don't need to learn any element to do that. if not, it would be only one or two academy students will graduate in ten years...

As for a person who masters all 5 elements.. This is my thought...
It is a possibility that a person can have all the 5 basic elements plus whatever additional elements he/she acquires through the combination of at least 2 of the basic elements. And it is possible for a person to master all of these elements alhough it requires skills, talents, experience, training and a lot of time... But I would say that for a person who has many elements affinities, they can use all of them but they only managed to master one or two elements only (which has the greater affinity to him).

This is merely a speculation....
I believe it is possible (but seems too far-fetched) that to create higher tiers elemental combination..
For example:
Tier 1 = water, earth, wind
Tier 2 = wood (water + earth) , ice (water + wind)
Tier 3 = <insert whatever> (wood + ice)

[sharinganLS]

This is merely a speculation....
I believe it is possible (but seems too far-fetched) that to create higher tiers elemental combination..
For example:
Tier 1 = water, earth, wind
Tier 2 = wood (water + earth) , ice (water + wind)
Tier 3 = <insert whatever> (wood + ice)


Now that sounds awesome.

[Deathstalker]

Yeah, awseome.. but... unlikely... i mean... we're building up to the finale of Naruto (unless they are gonna pull out some bigger badguy, which is unlikely) and we're just now getting to understand the way the element types work... so i'd say it's unlikely that we'll get a third tier of elements... and even so, you'd need a unimaginably complex bloodline limit (like... mixing haku and yamato's genes then having them randomly evolve their own bloodline limit mixing ice and wood or something...)

[bax]

Yeah, awseome.. but... unlikely... i mean... we're building up to the finale of Naruto (unless they are gonna pull out some bigger badguy, which is unlikely) and we're just now getting to understand the way the element types work... so i'd say it's unlikely that we'll get a third tier of elements... and even so, you'd need a unimaginably complex bloodline limit (like... mixing haku and yamato's genes then having them randomly evolve their own bloodline limit mixing ice and wood or something...)


Yup.. merely a speculation. And not to mention the difficulty of it. It's like nothing short of impossible. If someone could done it, it will be a triple S-Rank... at least... yes, very unlikely.. Even to get into tier 2 is way hard..

:offtopic Yeah.. It's just a theory and a speculation though... I would say Naruto will hold on for another 3 years at least. There's still much to do. Right now Akatsuki still has 9 members. There's Oro thing. Retrieve Sasuke. The Bijyuu problem. And also the Hokage problem.

[UzumakiRoman]

That brings me to other question though....

Well, if an element affinity is needed to execute a jutsu that is connected to that particular element, what would become of Sharingan user :blink. Let say for example, Sasuke has only Fire and Lightning affinity, copied a Suiton jutsu. Can Sasuke uses that jutsu? If he can, that would be against the principle of element affinity because Sasuke doesn't have affinity to water. If can uses that jutsu because of his a bloodline limit, that's cheap :notrust. Or does Sasuke only copy but can't use it...


well here's the thing about affinity..
just because you have an affinity for an element doesn't mean you can't work hard to master the ones that you don't have an affinity for.

to give you an idea, if your standing in the middle of a circle with 5 posts equidistant from you(of course the 5 poles representing the 5 elements), all affinity means is that your more likely to walk to one of the poles then the others, but that doesn't mean you can't will yourself to walk to another pole.

the thing about sharingan is it doesn't just copy the hand seals but it also copies the know how of the technique( the know how being what Asuma was explaining to Naruto about Wind chakra, imaging two blades that get sharper as you rub them together.. or something like that). remember the Sharingan also has the ability of insight(not to the degree of Byakugan but still some).

[bax]

@UzumakiRoman

The original elements that I want to ask is about the tier2 elements (ie:wood,ice,etc). I mean, Sharingan just can't copy that. Well, it's my own fault giving examples using the basic 5 elements. Thanx though. Yeah, I know that for the basic elements, it's the problem of efficiency of the jutsu performed (ie:more power, less Chakra, more range, etc)...

[Rampages]

Where do the shadow/light elements fit ? Tier 1.5 ? XD

I think naruto is wind/shadow, because he keeps using shadow clones :blink

[sharinganLS]

I dont think theres an element called shadow. Atleast as of yet.

At the moment there are:
Fire
Water
Wind
Earth
Lightning

Combined elements or Tier2 elements.
Ice
Wood
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We still dont know wat element is Shikamaru's shadow jutsu based on. And we still arnt sure abt the yin-yang theory. Untill Kakashi explains it to naruto all we can do is imagine.

Other issue that needs to be explained is garra's sand element is it combined(earth and wind) or is it something like kankuro's technique(moving sand by using chakra). Also Ino's soul transfer techique. Wat element is that?

Lets hope Kishi explains all of these.

[johnjohn252]

yeah i think thats right. u combine them to alter what they can make. But remember that some people can use certain jutsus because of their bloodline. Not eveyone can make wood or ice, thats just bloodline limits So combining them is only for a few. I also think that every person can do all the elements but they dont have a natural affinity to them. Like Naruto is a Wind manipulator, but he can still do water fire, lightning, and earth but he wont be as good with all of them as he is with Wind. kakashi also said most Jounins focus on 2 of their elements meaning that everyone has like 2 elements and so Naruto still has another element YAY! i hope he has like a new element making him very different from the others. i hope he definetly doesnt have a cheedy element like water....he wud only use that every once and a while and he has a weapon which corresponds to his element! like a wind sword or soemthing. Maybe he can make a thuderstorm with Wind and Lightning!

[sharinganLS]

If I were to guess the second element Naruto will manipulate. It would be water..

Y water?

http://www.blueturnip.com/writing/articles/uzumakinaruto.php

In short the word uzumaki means whirlpool and the word Naruto really doesnt mean anything but there is a place in japan famous for whirlpools and the places name is naruto. Hence the name symbolizes a whirlpool, something the swirls wildly.

Now we know that the first element is wind. That would just be a tornado. In order for it to be a whirlpool it will obviously require water element. Hence I think it will be water.

Also another minor reason is becuase one of sasuke's elements is fire and the only natural opposing element to fire is "water".

[johnjohn252]

oh yeah! uzumaki means maelstrom right! i hear yah! good thinking!

[sahugani]

i think that if naruto even gets a second element, it will be fire and it wont be gotten through trying o master a second element. just look at naruto's personality and jutsu history. since when has he ever been proactive enough to look into new techniques himself. he has said he needed something new and the initial step was handed to him (kage bunshin from the scroll, rasengan from Jiraiya, wind affinity from Kakashi) because Naruto needed these. Naruto then develops these into more powerful versions in terms of sheer numers or power. this means he wont pursue element #2 on his own cause he's more likely to boost existing skills. and it wont be gotten through another person because a second element training is only for fighters like kakashi who have the analytical skills to judge when certain elements would be better, so they know it would just waste time in naruto's case. The reason i said fire before comes from the kyuubi. naruto probably wont learn ant katon skills, but i could see the element seeping into his attacks during tailed stages. now just to be clear, i don't even really believe that he will get the fire element in this way because the kyuubi's chakra seems to be a mere imitation of fire due to intensity rather than the element itself, but i'm just saying that if naruto gets any 2nd element it would be due to this

[ophidial]

well to add to this tsunade has lightning type, from her
battle with kabuto but i think she also has earth and water

and i think for a second tier manipulation there's gonna
be a type that revolves around blood, not quite sure what it'd use
though... to me water + fire some makes sense.

[VEX02]

I think that The Legendary Sennin were all an Earth base, Kakashi and the 4th were lightning base, the 3rd was fire base, Sakura is water based, Naruto wind, Gara is earth base(in the movie showed lightning) I believe that Asuma is wind based and Kurenai is water based, Gai and Rock Lee are Earth based, Neji and TenTen are wind based, Ino, and Choji are Earth based, Shikimaru is yang, and I guess I could keep going but I'm not

[JioFreed666]

Carried from: What weapon should naruto use?
It all started with this and went on to take up a page


It's possible, but I thought that a person's chakra was only one element. In other words, Sasuke can use fire jutsus but his chakra is lightning which is why Kakashi taught him the chidori. If that is the case, then he would only be able to channel lightning into his blade because that is what his chakra is and Naruto would only be able to channel wind into the chakra knives because that's what his chakra is.



No Yondaime, Sasuke's not a lighting elemental person he just has lighting type(plus chidori current is not focused it just covers his whole body) jutsu just like he has fire type and if anything is know from avatar(yes I watch Avatar because it's the sickest U.S. cartoon ever yes even better then Simpson's and futurama and family guy which I've watched all three of those since almost the start of.) that lighting(is just like in avatar or) could be a back up element to fire and your quickly forgetting Yamato who is both Water and Earth to make wood element. Plus if that's the case I don't want to think of what Sasuke can do with his fire jutsu



Read chapter 319. It says, and I quote, "It even took Sasuke, who 's a true genius, several long days before he got the hang of lightning nature chakra manipulation." I think chapter 315 says most ninja's chakra lean toward a certain element, key word being most. By the way, I agree that the Avatar is the best U.S cartoon ever.



.......dose that say that's the only element manipulation he can use? and remember Uchiha is fire first anything else second so I believe that means what he might know Fire maniulation



I was agreeing with second element manipulation. Kakashi said most, so I'm pretty sure that Sasuke has more than one element manipulation plus Naruto already stated that he did. I was refering to the part about Sasuke not being a lightning elemental person. When he was training to fight Gaara, he was doing the lightning element manipulation training. I don't think he had to do the fire manipulation training because it came to him naturally, because he is a Uchiha. In other words, Sasuke chakra probably leans towards two different elements.

....then how come you post was so different(AN:this was added without a huge pic I had with it and by 'how come your post was so different' was that if he already knew Fire element why would it take him longer then 2 or 3 days if he just has to repeat the process he did with fire elements)


sasuke's clan has the abiliteto USE fire jutsu not MANIPULATE that is different alot of people can use a fire jutsu but his chakra might have gone with lighting or he could have too elements whiich is possible because he would be jounin level now a days and kakashi said that most jounin have atlest two elements (what are kakashis other ones)



OK, when I wrote "key word being most" I was pretty much saying that Sasuke is not in that category or he's not one of the "most". I wrote the quote from ch. 319 because u said, and I quote, "Sasuke's not a lighting elemental person he just has lighting type(plus chidori current is not focused it just covers his whole body) jutsu". By the way, ch.308 states that Sasuke focused his chidori through his sword of kusanagi. Kinda the same way Asuma focused wind chakra to make his chakra knives sharper. I think that the chakra knives would be a perfect match for the sword of kusanagi, plus Asuma already told Naruto how they work so it wouldn't take him long to learn how to use them to their full potential.



Kakashi hasn't shown his second and THE UCHIHA CLAN is pretty much a the elite fire clan meaning they know how to do everything with fire elemental chakra from MANIPULATE to USING Jutsu and since there genius level IQ sasuke who found out how to use lighting element manipulation(which he found out how to do with orochimaru he was only taught to use the element by Kakashi) he should be able to with his IQ and sharingan he should be able to have copied the process with fire the way he did with lighting. anyway remember he only used one Jutsu and a half(did the hand seals) the whole time against Naruto and the remade team 7 and could have killed them with the second so WE HAVE NO IDEA WHAT HE CAN DO



Kakashi has shown his second element. It's earth manipulation. And Kakashi taught him the lightning manipulation, not orochimaru. In order to do the Chidori he had to learn the lightning manipulation. Kakashi said it took Sasuke several days to learn lightning manipulation. I other words, before fighting Gaara he trained in taijutsu, element manipulation, and ultimately the chidori. The chidori is an elemental jutsu, you can't use that jutsu without knowing lightning manipulation. Like the original Rasengan is a form manipulation, you can't learn the rasengan without knowing form manipulation because that's what it is.

when did kakashi show or state that he's an Lighting/earth?


He was not taught lighting manipulation by kakashi which I can tell for the simple fact that Chidori needs hand seals to access it's power unlike chidori current both forms of the rasengan and even asuma's knives that is true manipulation so he learned it with orochimaru the olny reason I know that sasuke didn't learn manipulation is because yes even for a genius of the 4th hokage's level it took him long a long time to do shape manipulation you can't tell me that sasuke before leaving for the sound and getting his level 2 curse mark did what a low jounin can do



That's exactly what I'm telling you. I'm not making this up and it's not guess, it says it as clear as day. If you don't believe me, read it for urself. It's ch. 319, Naruto is trying to split the waterfall. Naruto gets pissed because he doesn't think he's progressing fast enough, Kakashi tells him about Sasuke's Lightning Natured Chakra Manipulation training. If Kakashi didn't train Sasuke, how would he know how long it took him to get the hang of it. Not only does it say that Kakashi taught Sasuke the lightning manipulation, it doesn't say anywhere in the manga or anime that Orochimaru taught Sasuke the lightning manipulation. I've never been more sure about anything Naruto related, this is a fact.

About the IQ's so you know what i'm talking about in the last post:


I dont really understand this part of the post can you explain it differently thanks. But Kakashi used hand seals with Raikiri at the series outest as well. Also I think the way the term "genius" is used in the series comes from a combination of potential and talent to pick this up quickly not the individuals IQ except in Shikamaru's case.



I read something different in another scan then(directed toward Yondaime)

About IQ never said anything about that and remember the 4th hokage was chosen over Orochimaru even thought Orochimaru was of course the smarter/stronger and older. Meaning that the 4th hokage's "genius" was near that of the most powerful Sanin level's who is Orochimaru(who we've never seen in a battle at full power,not even against the 3rd hokage and was barely hurt by naruto 4 tails). and plus remember that it took 3 years for the 4th hokage to make and master the Rasengan(and he's suppose to be the youngest but strongest hokage). Naruto being the only exception to the rule, no one has been able to master form manipulation faster and Yondaime is telling me that with in a period of 7 days sasuke didn't only do that but he took it a step farther and mastered Chakra manipulation which I believe took naruto how long with 1000 clones?

main questions from all this
Dose sasuke know Fire Manipulation?
When did he learn lighting manipulation with Kakashi or Orochimaru?
How long dose it take for some one to naturally get the hang of chakra maniplation

[king_crimson-]

firstly i think you misunderstood what "elemental manipulation" is: the ability to use a katon jutsu, means that you know the fire manipulation. Because you had to turn your chakra into fire. Sasuke learned the lightning manipulation with kakashi, as kakashi himself said. Last thing, how much time it takes to get the hang of a certain elemental manipulation, depends on the ability of the shinobi, and the affinity he has with that element. I think sasuke's primary element is fire, and lightning is the second. Kakashi can use both lightning, water and earth element, but his primary element is lightning.

[Yondaime Uzumaki]

Also, I don't know why you think that Sasuke did form manipulation training with the elemental manipulation training. That's why Naruto's Wind rasengan is so special. Not even the 4th Hokage was able to mix form & elemental manipulation. I think the chidori is just an elemental manipulation. No matter how much of a genius Sasuke is, he wouldn't be able to mix the form & elemental manipulation in just several days. Naruto is the only person that has the chakra and techniques to do this.

[enlightened monkey]

Elemental manipulation entails the ability to wield an element -- Naruto's ability to cut the waterfall in half using wind chakra, Sasuke's ability to compress lightning into a single, condensed and powerful attack on his hand, or his ability to blow fire out his mouth.

However, Yondaime Uzumaki, I actually have to disagree on a certain point -- the point of impossibility over elemental/shape manipulation. It's not impossible -- hence the elemental dragons we've seen, and Sasuke's ability to wield lightning throughout his body as a current.

What made Naruto's jutsu so special, so impossible, is that the rasengan was the highest form of chakra manipulation possible -- and that to fully and successfully add an element to that very attack proved to be impossible for the 4th, or Kakashi, both geniuses and both very capable of much more other than that single stage alone.

The chidori is elemental manipulation, and form manipulation to the point where it's condensed enough that the power of it is capable of punching through many obstacles. Sasuke simply took that same power and changed the "shape", as you may say, and put it throughout his body, into his sword, and the like. Notice how the Chidori Nagashi didn't have the same power as the chidori -- it stunned and shocked Naruto/Sai, but by no means tore through them or killed them as a Chidori could have.

Sasuke knows fire manipulation, and lightning manipulation, yes. He even knows how to change the "shape" of the lightning chakra and likewise with fire chakra, to answer your initial question, Ball (or Gamakichi). As for how long it takes to get the hang of chakra manipulation....do you mean element/form manipulation? Well Sasuke, a genius, took a few days to get lightning. Form and shape would be harder to a degree, but unless the technique was of a different deadliness in a different shape, the time it would take to master both in conjunction would vary.

[Yondaime Uzumaki]

Elemental manipulation entails the ability to wield an element -- Naruto's ability to cut the waterfall in half using wind chakra, Sasuke's ability to compress lightning into a single, condensed and powerful attack on his hand, or his ability to blow fire out his mouth.

However, Yondaime Uzumaki, I actually have to disagree on a certain point -- the point of impossibility over elemental/shape manipulation. It's not impossible -- hence the elemental dragons we've seen, and Sasuke's ability to wield lightning throughout his body as a current.

What made Naruto's jutsu so special, so impossible, is that the rasengan was the highest form of chakra manipulation possible -- and that to fully and successfully add an element to that very attack proved to be impossible for the 4th, or Kakashi, both geniuses and both very capable of much more other than that single stage alone.

The chidori is elemental manipulation, and form manipulation to the point where it's condensed enough that the power of it is capable of punching through many obstacles. Sasuke simply took that same power and changed the "shape", as you may say, and put it throughout his body, into his sword, and the like. Notice how the Chidori Nagashi didn't have the same power as the chidori -- it stunned and shocked Naruto/Sai, but by no means tore through them or killed them as a Chidori could have.

Sasuke knows fire manipulation, and lightning manipulation, yes. He even knows how to change the "shape" of the lightning chakra and likewise with fire chakra, to answer your initial question, Ball (or Gamakichi). As for how long it takes to get the hang of chakra manipulation....do you mean element/form manipulation? Well Sasuke, a genius, took a few days to get lightning. Form and shape would be harder to a degree, but unless the technique was of a different deadliness in a different shape, the time it would take to master both in conjunction would vary.


You're right. I just read that chapter over again and it says that the rasengan is the highest form of form manipulation but Kakashi couldn't add his lightning chakra to it so he created the chidori. I can't believe I forgot that. That's for correcting me. I'm sure u will need to do it again in the future.

[enlightened monkey]

I do what I can to make sure things are clear, simple as that. You know what you're talking about -- I'm just there keep things balanced and clean, s'all.

Now I wonder if this topic'll keep going.....

[fremeer]

I think any1 can manipulate a elements if they can make it.
Let me explain.
-When you walk up tress or on water u are releasing a constant amount of chakra from a certain area. Look at how the hyuuga fight they release chakra from their fingers as they hit people to interrupt chakra flow.
-when u make a jutsu u generally have 3 options, pure form, pure nature and a mix of the two.
-Pure form is of course rasengan since it requires only concentrated chakra that ur shape to the most economical shape. This would also include stuff like the hyuggas fighting style.
-Pure nature isnt seen much cause its kinda weak without alot of chakra and control. Pure nature is what naruto did to the leaf or the waterful, now specific form just release chakra and change it into nature, i also believe that this is what sasukes new chidori thing is he releases chakra from all over his body and converts it into electricity(its not a very powerful attack but does shock the victim enough to buy some time).
-Finally form+nature, this is chidori, futton rasengan, water shark/dragon. Generally most jutsus fall under this category because they are more powerful then most form or nature jutsus and have a greater variety. Chidori is lightning chakra that is being amplified by and controlled by form manipulation, it doesnt have a full shape because of the high levels of lightning chakra and not being able to manipulate the chakra to a more stable form. A perfect chidori would have none of the lightning crackle just a glowing area enveloping the hand, raikiri is a chidori with more lightning chakra and a bit more form manipulation to be more powerful, chidori has little form but alot of nature.
-The wind rasengan is so far an anomaly i dont think naruto's use of the new rasengan is the way its gonna stay since its inpractical as a jutsu.
-Sasukes ability to create a fire jutsu of high level means he has a good understanding or knack for making fire jutsu. The fire Jutsus we have seen him create though are generally no very well formed and just huge explosions of fire that go out as soon as he stops blowing. More powerful ones would have a more definite shape.

WOW long rant

[JioFreed666]

WAIT back up to the Yondaime's last post WTF! when did it say he loop holed the elemental Rasengan by creating Chidori? Anyway if naruto had enough control over his elemental powers as he did over form manipulation he would pwn: A.The normal Chidori B.Kakashi in general C.Chidori current and anything sasuke could toss at naruto before leaving....and you know this ...man(sorry had to do a Friday quote). Anyway we don't know how or what sasuke has done with the chidori he could have done what naruto has done and 5 times more

[segua]

It is said that elemental manipulation is high level stuff and is very difficult. So it seems that you got to have strong affinity to a certain elemental to have less difficulty with it.

Who says a raikiri is a high level chidori. The original name for the raikiri is chidori. The only reason why Kakashi calls his chidori a raikiri is because it was said of him that he cut a through a bolt of lightning.

And it was Kakashi who taught Sasuke lightning manipulation. I'm sure Orochimaruo expanded upon that.

But I think that a ninja could use different elemental jutsu to a certain level. Some ninjas might be able to use higher level elemental jutsu of the same element than others yet might only be able to use low level elemental jutsu of another element. But it is said that jounins, at the very least, could use one element. Those who are extremely talented like the first Hokage, could combine two elements into one new one such as water and earth.

But you know what strikes me odd. If you also know the strength and weaknesses of each elementals and attributes, this might make using elemental chakra more complex. Fire is weak against water, water to earth, earth to lightning, lightning to wind and wind to fire. But when two elements such as fire and wind are combined, it makes it stronger. So there seems to be supportive elements for other elements such as wind is for fire and water. So elemental manipulation goes even further.

Also, just a hypothesis, if water and fire chakra were combined, this might neutralized the jutsu or weaken it severely so combining two chakra is risky unless you know what you're doing.

Also, the reason why Naruto quickly learned how to achieve wind nature manipulation was through the use of hundreds of clones through the training which Kakashi came up with. It would've of taken longer for Naruto if it wasn't for his enormous amount of stamina, chakra, kyubi and clones.

[fremeer]

It is said that elemental manipulation is high level stuff and is very difficult. So it seems that you got to have strong affinity to a certain elemental to have less difficulty with it.

Who says a raikiri is a high level chidori. The original name for the raikiri is chidori. The only reason why Kakashi calls his chidori a raikiri is because it was said of him that he cut a through a bolt of lightning.

the databook says it. its a continuing problem with fans though


But I think that a ninja could use different elemental jutsu to a certain level. Some ninjas might be able to use higher level elemental jutsu of the same element than others yet might only be able to use low level elemental jutsu of another element. But it is said that jounins, at the very least, could use one element. Those who are extremely talented like the first Hokage, could combine two elements into one new one such as water and earth.

its not talent that makes a bloodline limit its genetics and a knack for it

the whole elemental weakness thing is interesting because it shows that wind is weak to fire because fire gets stronger off it. Then we have the other elements which dont actually get stronger from their respective bitch element. Water will not get stronger with fire added in just overwhelm it. Wind and fire is an anomaly i think.

[JioFreed666]

the databook says it. its a continuing problem with fans though

its not talent that makes a bloodline limit its genetics and a knack for it

the whole elemental weakness thing is interesting because it shows that wind is weak to fire because fire gets stronger off it. Then we have the other elements which dont actually get stronger from their respective bitch element. Water will not get stronger with fire added in just overwhelm it. Wind and fire is an anomaly i think.


To talk about Raikiri/Chidori issues I believe Chidori is the weaker of the two because I have never once heard or seen kakashi use the same handsigns or name for chidori as the Raikiri and he has olny used that name for it since

[Yondaime Uzumaki]

WAIT back up to the Yondaime's last post WTF! when did it say he loop holed the elemental Rasengan by creating Chidori? Anyway if naruto had enough control over his elemental powers as he did over form manipulation he would pwn: A.The normal Chidori B.Kakashi in general C.Chidori current and anything sasuke could toss at naruto before leaving....and you know this ...man(sorry had to do a Friday quote). Anyway we don't know how or what sasuke has done with the chidori he could have done what naruto has done and 5 times more


The chidori is not the highest form of form manipulation. The reason why is because Kakashi couldn't add his element to the highest form of form manipulation or the rasengan. Kakashi figured that if the form manipulation wasn't so high, he could add his element manipulation to it. In other words, the rasengan is the highest form of form manipulation and the chidori is not. If you add the element to the rasengan, you have a technique stronger then the chidori could ever be. That what enlightened monkey was talking about. Read Kakashi Gaiden and Naruto clone training.

[segua]

the databook says it. its a continuing problem with fans though


Interesting. Haven't looked into the whole data book thing. I dunno. If that's what the data book says that it has to be right.

I believe it takes talent in addition to genetics. Those with more talent could reach higher levels of a certain elemental type.

[JioFreed666]

The chidori is not the highest form of form manipulation. The reason why is because Kakashi couldn't add his element to the highest form of form manipulation or the rasengan. Kakashi figured that if the form manipulation wasn't so high, he could add his element manipulation to it. In other words, the rasengan is the highest form of form manipulation and the chidori is not. If you add the element to the rasengan, you have a technique stronger then the chidori could ever be. That what enlightened monkey was talking about. Read Kakashi Gaiden and Naruto clone training.

..........you got form and nature manipulation mixed up and if not that you forgot to look at the part where I said "if NARUTO could master his element as much as he has master form: he could pwn the normal chidori (because Chidori is considered the best of both and a sure kill to any normal one hearted ninja, before the rasenshuriken, and is strong as the normal rasengan,which was proven at the valley of the end when they went head to head it's just since naruto wasn't going for the kill the damage that would back this up wasn't shown.) Kakashi and so on"

[king_crimson-]

chidori isn't considered the best of both form and nature manipulation...at least, i don't remember anyone saying something like that in the manga...

rasengan is the highest form of form manipulation. chidori has both form and nature manipulation, but it's not the highest form manipulation+nature manipulation. THAT is the fuuton: rasengan/rasenshuriken(when it will be complete)

[Raine_Joybringer]

chidori isn't considered the best of both form and nature manipulation...at least, i don't remember anyone saying something like that in the manga...


Raikiri is a higher rank than Chidori if I remember right >_>

[Yondaime Uzumaki]

..........you got form and nature manipulation mixed up and if not that you forgot to look at the part where I said "if NARUTO could master his element as much as he has master form: he could pwn the normal chidori (because Chidori is considered the best of both and a sure kill to any normal one hearted ninja, before the rasenshuriken, and is strong as the normal rasengan,which was proven at the valley of the end when they went head to head it's just since naruto wasn't going for the kill the damage that would back this up wasn't shown.) Kakashi and so on"






chidori isn't considered the best of both form and nature manipulation...at least, i don't remember anyone saying something like that in the manga...

rasengan is the highest form of form manipulation. chidori has both form and nature manipulation, but it's not the highest form manipulation+nature manipulation. THAT is the fuuton: rasengan/rasenshuriken(when it will be complete)


I was gonna say it but king_crimson- pretty much said exactly what I was gonna write so just read the post above.

[aznhotbod]

So, to sum it up:
Chidori is spatially discharging while elementally lightning. (Thats why it takes so much chakra since its continuously being discharged). Raikiri is a stronger version which got its name from Kakashi cutting a bolt of lightning using that technique.

Rasengan is spatially a sphere of randomly/violently moving chakra (since its wel contained, not a huge amount of chakra is consumed).
Fuuton Rasengan inserts wind element to make it more powerful.

Most ninjas can do either spatial manipulation or elemental manipulation, but putting both together is very difficult. Kakashi has said most jounins have 2 types of elemental affinity (he himself seems to be lightning, water, and earth (those doton escape, decapitation, etc).

Techniques such as Katon Fire ball is more or less a discharge of fire elemental chakra. Not so much as intentionally to manipulate the shape of the fire.

[JioFreed666]

I was gonna say it but king_crimson- pretty much said exactly what I was gonna write so just read the post above.

I qoute my self " Chidori is considered the best of both and a sure kill to any normal one hearted ninja, BEFORE the RASENSHURIKEN" which is the fuuton rasengan(when naruto dose the move he even says "Fuuton" when doing it)...so READ CAREFULLY in both the manga and when people post. Anyway yes it is the best of both because it can COMPETE with something it took the strongest hokage(which hokakge is considered probably favorably the strongest kage of the 5) in his prime 3 years to make

[king_crimson-]

Chidori is considered the best of both...
cut
so READ CAREFULLY in both the manga
mind to post a reference in the manga?


Anyway yes it is the best of both because it can COMPETE with something it took the strongest hokage(which hokakge is considered probably favorably the strongest kage of the 5) in his prime 3 years to make

No, that reason doesn't make chidori the best of both. It may make chidori the best using both form and nature manipulation(again, i don't remember anyone saying this in the manga, though).

Chidori is not the best in form manipulation, period.

[enlightened monkey]

So the discussion is basically on whether chidori or rasengan is the best attack to use. Well THAT'S an interesting one, but the rasengan takes the cake, unfortunately.

For one thing, it requires less chakra to use. Otherwise, there would have been some sort of statement on how it consumes a hell of a lot of chakra. And it makes sense as a chakra conservant -- pure chakra placed in it's highest volatile, swirling form within a sphere. Nothing too huge while the chidori requires a hell of a lot of power placed into a single area of the body (hand) for insane puncturing power. Whereas the same amount of chakra in a rasegan COULD go into a chidori, what makes the rasengan superior as an art unto itself is the fact that it's the most lethal form of it's amount of chakra used while a chidori relies on raw condensation into power....which means a lot of chakra is used to create it while the rasengan can sit back and be the most powerful of it's type for the comparatively smaller amount of chakra used.

Secondly, it's a question of where the chidori hits. Any spot a hand goes through a body is vital, but the rasengan is a guarunteed 1-hit KO that entirely damages the insides of an opponent unless they're a medical master (Kabuto, Tsunade, etc.), while sending them flying as well -- as opposed to a strong-willed opponent slashing the chidori man's throat out with a kunai. Fillers don't count in my eyes, and they really toned down the rasengan. I remember some Fuuma guy taking one from Jiraiya and just getting up and telling everybody to bow. Pfft.....unless he was superior to Kabuto and the likes in healing his own body.

Chidori looks cooler. So it gets a point.

The Chidori also requires an Uchiha or someone with a doujutsu to use it -- it's not at all a practical technique otherwise. The rasengan is useable by all who can learn it, and replaces a punch any day.

Chidori has more puncturing power. Rasengan has more power overall, and is more about entirely damaging an opponent as opposed to precisely finding the vital spot in which to hit and kill the opponent.

The chidori is a form of nature manipulation, condensing it to a point and in the process of condensation, adding more and more power to the attack itself. The Chidori Nagashi probably used the same amount of chakra and power, but was spread out throughout the body and certainly didn't kill or even knock out Naruto/Sai (Naruto having already been a bucket of messed up) -- just stunned them. It's chakra manipulation in the art of brute force condensation, but the precision and fine art of chakra manipulation stops there and, in doing so, stops any superiority over the rasengan and it's method of creation.

The rasengan is the use of a set amount of chakra within a sphere in it's most dangerous and volatile nature, the very top and utmost form of chakra manipulation. There's no nature manipulation, and we've seen the 50% total of those effects combined (a lightning attack with a bit of chakra manipulation vs. utmost form manipulation with a bit of wind manipulation. That's a hard one to answer....not). The chidori, in the first place, had the advantage of both form and nature manipulation (not the utmost of both, but both nonetheless) and the rasengan had the advantage of being the top version of form. And they were equal head-to-head.

My vote goes to the rasengan.

[Yondaime Uzumaki]

So the discussion is basically on whether chidori or rasengan is the best attack to use. Well THAT'S an interesting one, but the rasengan takes the cake, unfortunately.

For one thing, it requires less chakra to use. Otherwise, there would have been some sort of statement on how it consumes a hell of a lot of chakra. And it makes sense as a chakra conservant -- pure chakra placed in it's highest volatile, swirling form within a sphere. Nothing too huge while the chidori requires a hell of a lot of power placed into a single area of the body (hand) for insane puncturing power. Whereas the same amount of chakra in a rasegan COULD go into a chidori, what makes the rasengan superior as an art unto itself is the fact that it's the most lethal form of it's amount of chakra used while a chidori relies on raw condensation into power....which means a lot of chakra is used to create it while the rasengan can sit back and be the most powerful of it's type for the comparatively smaller amount of chakra used.

Secondly, it's a question of where the chidori hits. Any spot a hand goes through a body is vital, but the rasengan is a guarunteed 1-hit KO that entirely damages the insides of an opponent unless they're a medical master (Kabuto, Tsunade, etc.), while sending them flying as well -- as opposed to a strong-willed opponent slashing the chidori man's throat out with a kunai. Fillers don't count in my eyes, and they really toned down the rasengan. I remember some Fuuma guy taking one from Jiraiya and just getting up and telling everybody to bow. Pfft.....unless he was superior to Kabuto and the likes in healing his own body.

Chidori looks cooler. So it gets a point.

The Chidori also requires an Uchiha or someone with a doujutsu to use it -- it's not at all a practical technique otherwise. The rasengan is useable by all who can learn it, and replaces a punch any day.

Chidori has more puncturing power. Rasengan has more power overall, and is more about entirely damaging an opponent as opposed to precisely finding the vital spot in which to hit and kill the opponent.

The chidori is a form of nature manipulation, condensing it to a point and in the process of condensation, adding more and more power to the attack itself. The Chidori Nagashi probably used the same amount of chakra and power, but was spread out throughout the body and certainly didn't kill or even knock out Naruto/Sai (Naruto having already been a bucket of messed up) -- just stunned them. It's chakra manipulation in the art of brute force condensation, but the precision and fine art of chakra manipulation stops there and, in doing so, stops any superiority over the rasengan and it's method of creation.

The rasengan is the use of a set amount of chakra within a sphere in it's most dangerous and volatile nature, the very top and utmost form of chakra manipulation. There's no nature manipulation, and we've seen the 50% total of those effects combined (a lightning attack with a bit of chakra manipulation vs. utmost form manipulation with a bit of wind manipulation. That's a hard one to answer....not). The chidori, in the first place, had the advantage of both form and nature manipulation (not the utmost of both, but both nonetheless) and the rasengan had the advantage of being the top version of form. And they were equal head-to-head.

My vote goes to the rasengan.


Agreed.

[JioFreed666]

mind to post a reference in the manga?
No, that reason doesn't make chidori the best of both. It may make chidori the best using both form and nature manipulation(again, i don't remember anyone saying this in the manga, though).

Chidori is not the best in form manipulation, period.

....when I say the best of both I mean the best combination of each one not best of both before the fuuton Rasengan and my vote gose to Chidori for four reasons

1.during the valley of the end rasengan didn't cause any extra damage when naruto hit the head band(such as causing internal damage) because he didn't fully land it meaning it has the flaw of the chidori it's not effective unless you get the right hit

2.the reason Kabuto went flying back because that was the odama rasengan in the manga and in the anime they made that rasengan as powerful as the odama

3.Naruto has vast amounts of chakra meaning......he dosen't get tired out as easly as jiraya would at naruto's age jiraya at naruto's age facing off against kakashi at naruto's age they would probably end in a draw using their full power.

4.Doujutsu is not required if some one with kabuto's know how of the body where to hit. Most doujutsu only allows you to see the vital point you want to hit while with out one you have to know where your hitting as your going in for the strike. meaning it's not a Uchiha or doujutsu only it's a lighting nature chakra only

[aznhotbod]

2.the reason Kabuto went flying back because that was the odama rasengan in the manga and in the anime they made that rasengan as powerful as the odama


i dont think it was oodama rasenga if you are talkinga bout part 1. It was the first time naruto ever used rasengan on someone, which is just a regular rasengan. Only Itachi substitute was hammered by a oodama rasengan (and Deidara's clay bird).

If Chidori didnt hit the vital point, its effect is drastically reduced. But if Rasengen didnt hit spot on, its after effect should still be more damaging than a missed chidori.

As far as dojutsu, chidori requires sharingan to see the movement of the enemy because the user is moving way too fast, his normal eyes wont be able to perceive any counter attack. Without sharingan, it's not only incomplete, but flawed (more like a taking you down with me sort of attack), while Rasengan without wind element is simply incomplete but not flawed.

[JioFreed666]

yeah sorry about that I just looked back and saw it, but I know naruto put more chakra the needed into it because he was at a live or die point

You just pretty much screwed yourself on the 2nd point because I pretty much gave an example where the rasengan which hit did less damage then a non vital hit chidori. Which was at the valley of the end because naruto's rasengan hit but didn't do damge to sasuke at all but sasuke missed with a chidori and knocked naruto out and was able to walked away alittle drainned from the usage of a level 2 seal,using chidori and shringan but not effected by the rasengan

When dose it say the eyes of some one without a Doujutsu but knows chidori can't keep up? anyway lee who is trained to be fast could keep up when he watched the jutsu happen with out a doujutsu

[king_crimson-]

When dose it say the eyes of some one without a Doujutsu but knows chidori can't keep up? anyway lee who is trained to be fast could keep up when he watched the jutsu happen with out a doujutsu

no, lee said so himself.
chidori/raikiri pushes the speed through the human limit.

Something like sharingan is needed to complete it...at least, this is what emerges from the manga...

[DarkManSharingan32]

Bah. I wonder what would have happened if Kabuto would have been hit with a Chidori instead of a Rasengan all those many moons ago.

I find it highly unlikely that he would be standing here today. (Even with his regenerative cell capability)
---

All those points about Raikiri vs. Rasengan are always slanted because the jutsu... by nature, achieve different objectives. Yeah... the Rasengan is a strong attack, but honestly, only the Oodama version has been known to kill ANYBODY. Yeah, the opponent cant move after being hit from a Rasengan/Rasen-Shuriken... but they aren't dead. If it were Kakuzu vs. Naruto... who knows if Kakuzu would have been able to piece himself together after a while.

On the only other hand...the Raikiri is an <b>assassination</b> jutsu. I'm willing to bet that Kakashi has one-hit-killed an opponent himself...more than the Rasengan has downed opponents by Jiraiya-Yondaime- and Naruto combined.

A bold statement I know... but you get the drift.

[JioFreed666]

send me that page that kakashi said that and lee defies human limits he wears weights that if dropped from high enough cover a foot ball field(guessing the size of the underground ring) in dust and rocks it kicks up. Plus I agree with DMS32 because you remember how in the kakashi gaiden kakashi did the chidori back then but was easliy spotted by some one of low chunnin level but after time skip Kakuzu who is an S class criminal of high jounin if not "holding back" sannin level (because of his powers of the 5 hearts) couldn't even hear kakashi only feel the Raikiri hit him

[king_crimson-]

send me that page

chapter 114. Gai explains the chidori, and lee think about how strong sasuke was.

Perhaps, the view gate could do the job as well, i think

[JioFreed666]

....starting quotes from chatper 114 Gai:"Pushes the limits of the human body"-not surpass

Lee:"I can't no...I wouldn't do it because I don't have the 'eye' to counter if they attacked during it"-meaning he can if he wanted to he's just to scared to be attack while doing it since he can't read everything like a doujutsu can meaning it's possible for a non-doujutsu user to do it just less likely of dodging like Sasuke, Itachi and Kakashi can with there doujutsu thus you just sealed your own fate on the subject because LEE HIMSELF said he's just to scared

[king_crimson-]

Lee:"I can't no...I wouldn't do it because I don't have the 'eye' to counter if they attacked during it"-meaning he can if he wanted to he's just to scared to be attack while doing it since he can't read everything like a doujutsu can meaning it's possible for a non-doujutsu user to do it just less likely of dodging like Sasuke, Itachi and Kakashi can with there doujutsu thus you just sealed your own fate on the subject because LEE HIMSELF said he's just to scared

it's what yondaime said to kakashi the first time he used it. Without sharingan(or anything similar) chidori is an incomplete jutsu. Gai could be able to do it, but it would be really dangerous for him, because he wont see his opponent's counter...

[aznhotbod]

exactly what king crimson said. its not about being scared; more like using a suicide move because its not complete. You must have sharingan (not even byakugan) to be able to see during high speed movement.

[JioFreed666]

.....if you READ THE CHAPTER LIKE I DID HE lee states :"I don't have the 'eye' to dodge if I was attack during it" MEANING HE WAS SCARED but really if he was able to kick Garra's(in the underground ring during the CE) ass at where no one could see him meaning he was at the speed you could do a chidori.

The fourth's generation wouldn't be able to do it with out a Doujutsu but naruto's generation the one that surpasses the last will probably able to defy that concept like they've done with every other aspect from haku's one handed seal usage to Shikamaru being able to do something his own sensei died trying to do and Naruto's mixture of a high level form and nature manipulation that surpasses both the chidori and rasengan.

Also, if you remember the anime flash backs to when kakashi was teaching sasuke the chidori sasuke never had the Sharingan on thus disproving the forth right there. Also if you can kill the enemy without the Sharigan which if he's not expecting a Chidori you can do I wouldn't call it incomplete because you got the job done

[segua]

Also, I don't think Lee was scared. He was just stating the obvious. A full frontal high-speed assault using Chidori against an opponent who is aware of the charge is dangerous to even suicidal unless you could clearly see and respond effectively to the countermeasures by the opponent.

It is also clear that a ninja has to have a body that could respond in time also. This reminds me of Sasuke's first match against Lee. Sasuke's bodily reaction time was not fast enough to counter a high-speed Lee though the two pupil Sharingan could clearly see Lee's movements.

But I've simulated a few scenarios that is advantageous for Chidori. One is an unsuspecting opponent such as Kakuzu, immobilized/stationary opponent such as Zabuza arrested by nin-dogs and finally another opponent who is making a frontal charge such as the rasengen-active Kyuubi-shrouded Naruto.

Now a stationary target that has the capabilities to self defend itself such as when Gaara self-enclosed himself completely with sand during the Chuunin exams is dangerous.

[JioFreed666]

yeah but the main issue is not if it's dangerous but if it's possible of some one with out a doujutsu like sharingan to do the chidori in general to the effectiveness of it being fatal

[king_crimson-]

.....if you READ THE CHAPTER LIKE I DID HE lee states :"I don't have the 'eye' to dodge if I was attack during it" MEANING HE WAS SCARED but really if he was able to kick Garra's(in the underground ring during the CE) ass at where no one could see him meaning he was at the speed you could do a chidori.
EDIT: i have a bad memory :P
The ura renge, has gai said, is super high speed taijutsu. Both kakashi and gai said it, by opening the chakra gates, you surpass the human limits. His speed became so fast that gaara couldn't even see it, he was confindent in this. Both gai and kakashi saw lee's movements, so it was also a matter of confindence from lee in the fact that gaara couldn't keep up with his speed to counter his attack. I wonder if chidori can be used while opening the chakra gates. That may give the user a speed high enough to avoid the possibility for a counter...depending on the enemy, though. I wonder if with the view gate, you can use chidori, and see your opponents countermoves...

But still, it's not like you can open your chakra gates anytime you want, it's quite a dangerous thing to do...

and again, it would be most likely a different way besides the sharingan, to complete chidori.

with chidori it's not like you can start running around your enemy waiting for the best chance to attack. We've seen kakashi and sasuke so many times using it, they always run straight towards the opponent. In that way, it's easier to counter it. And without the "eye" to see the counter, the jutsu become really dangerous for the user himself...

lee was scared because of this, if he just attack like that, he couldn't see the opponent's counter, and therefore, he would be pretty much screwed, if his enemy is good enough do a counter move.

That's why without the "eye", chidori is an incomplete jutsu. The 4th said it



Also, if you remember the anime flash backs to when kakashi was teaching sasuke the chidori sasuke never had the Sharingan on thus disproving the forth right there.
In the manga he was using sharingan during chidori's training. Chapter 128 for reference.

[spactaa]

Also, if you remember the anime flash backs to when kakashi was teaching sasuke the chidori sasuke never had the Sharingan on thus disproving the forth right there.


He was hitting a rock, rocks hardly counter.

[JioFreed666]

Spactaa but still in order to train your body for the stress of both you need to have both on anyway KC you just countered your self by saying said "Yes you can" and "No you can't about one issue"

The "yes you can":
and again, it would be most likely a different way besides the sharingan, to complete chidori.

the "No you can't":
That's why without the "eye", chidori is an incomplete jutsu. The 4th said it

make up your mind anyway I think the 4th ment something more along the lines of "it's an incomplete jutsu without the eye because you charged the enemy head on"
anyway I bet anybody from naruto's generation with high knowledge of the body even sakura(and that's one bold ass statement) could do what the fourth said couldn't be completed without the "eye" anyway if you remember the first time kakashi ever tried to pull it off(in the gaiden when he didn't have the eye) HE WAS IN PLAIN SIGHT and charging straight toward the guy if he was in a behind the enemy and started the manifestation of it the guy would have noticed and turned his atteion but if kakashi charged when that moment came he would barely have time to attack or defend expect for part 1 garra

Update: KC don't say things that are not true I just read the whole thing of kakashi gaiden and no where dose the 4th state that he needs a doujutsu to complete he just stated at the current level that kakashi was at during that moment his eyes couldn't keep up with a enemy's counter. Meaning this whole disagreement been pointless because it depends on the person personal processing ability which yes is better with a doujutsu but if they have a natural or trainned non-doujutsu knack for processing info while moving at high speed(people like lee and gai). So really unless we know how fast some processes info at that speed we can not make the call of who can and who can not do chidori without a doujutsu. personally IMO Shikamaru who with only a few minutes of thinking can plan 200 moves ahead can do it IMO

[king_crimson-]

The "yes you can":
and again, it would be most likely a different way besides the sharingan, to complete chidori.

the "No you can't":
That's why without the "eye", chidori is an incomplete jutsu. The 4th said it
it's because i edited my message :)
Still, with the word "eye", i meant everything that let you see -or like opening the gates- may not allow your enemy to do a countermove...


make up your mind anyway I think the 4th ment something more along the lines of "it's an incomplete jutsu without the eye because you charged the enemy head on"
kakashi always charged head on with chidori, and so did sasuke. The fact he hitted kakuzu from behind, doesn't mean that he didn't charged head on on kakuzu's back

anyway I bet anybody from naruto's generation with high knowledge of the body even sakura(and that's one bold ass statement) could do what the fourth said couldn't be completed without the "eye"
i completely disagree. And the 4th didn't say that you need the eye, he said that chidori is an incomplete jutsu, because the superspeed makes impossible for you to see any countermove.


anyway if you remember the first time kakashi ever tried to pull it off(in the gaiden when he didn't have the eye) HE WAS IN PLAIN SIGHT and charging straight toward the guy if he was in a behind the enemy and started the manifestation of it the guy would have noticed and turned his atteion but if kakashi charged when that moment came he would barely have time to attack or defend expect for part 1 garra
so what? it strongly depends on your enemies ability, sure. If you're behind him and he's not good enough to react in time, it can still be effective, even if you can't see your opponents countermove...simply because he couldn't do it

this doesn't make chidori "complete"


Update: KC don't say things that are not true I just read the whole thing of kakashi gaiden and no where dose the 4th state that he needs a doujutsu to complete he just stated at the current level that kakashi was at during that moment his eyes couldn't keep up with a enemy's counter. Meaning this whole disagreement been pointless because it depends on the person personal processing ability which yes is better with a doujutsu but if they have a natural or trainned non-doujutsu knack for processing info while moving at high speed(people like lee and gai).

never said that the 4th said the you need the "eye" to complete it. He simply states that it is an incomplete jutsu. And gai said that chidori pushes the human body limit right? which means that you reach your body limits, using it. It's not like gai or lee can't use it -without opening gates, assuming that opening the gates you can use it and "see"- but for 'em it's definitely a dangerous thing to do. Because they don't have the "eye" to see their opponents counters at that speed. Lee clearly said it at that speed, he couldn't see his opponents countermoves, se he simply "can't" charge head on.

[JioFreed666]

It dosen't push the human body to the limit it only pushes Sasuke's(pre-time skip) and Kakashi's body because of their sharingan being on and Gai's body because he and kakashi have probably reached limit of their chakara development anyway at the current level most of the main characters that were genin in the start of the series anyone of them including hinata could pull it off post time skip

....He simply "can't" mean he's just scared but if it was me and it came down to a "Live or die" situation like the 3rd great ninja war(the period where obito was killed for all who don't know) I sure as hell wouldn't worry about seeing the enemy's counter just if I hit he'll die even if I have to die with him. But the 4th hokage is not the master of the issue because he hasn't met a single one of the main characters expect the third, Jiraya and kakashi so he doesn't know their full power let alone any of them but naruto exist

[fremeer]

The sharingan can predict movement as well as its ability to increase the speed in which the eyes recieve and transmit information. Its essential for doing a full thrust attack at something. Even in boxing if u over extend(which is what a thrust is at the speed) you will be punished because you cannot react fast enough to the counter. The sharingan counters this but u still need a certain level of speed to even pull it off. It is still possible to use chidori as basic thrusting punch but it would cut down its base power too much.

[Paz42]

Now I dont know if this has been discussed before and if so sorry. But i was just wondering we know naruto is a wind user and i think it would be safe to say gaara is an earth user.

i was just wondering what elemants do you think the other ninja we grew to love over the course of the begining of the manga through the chunnin and retrive sauske arcs. That is if any of them are using elemants just wondering if any one had any opinions on this

Merged from another thread.

[Raine_Joybringer]

Actually, I think Gaara would be a wind user myself. Shukaku's element is supposed to wind, and sand is somehow an off-shoot of it, which would allow Shukaku/Gaara to use it.

[Paz42]

hmmm true shukaku is supposed to be wind and sand is easily moved by the wind so that would make sense

[Gear2fu]

Sasuke=Fire and Lightning
Yamato=Water and Earth
Shikamaru= Shadows(not sure if this is element)

[Raine_Joybringer]

Shikamaru= Shadows(not sure if this is element)


Shadows isn't an element. I think it has more to do with the 'ying/yang' aspect of mixing physical and spiritual stamina.

[Richo]

kakashi: lightning (due his famous raikiri) second unknown as he uses alot of elemental jutsu
shikamaru: unknown as he does specialise only in shadows not using any elemental jutsu
jirayi: my best gues would be fire and wind (due his fire jutsu combination with our beloved big toad)
Temari: wind (obvious)

[crialix]

think that shika's shadow is the mix between earth n wind

[Paz42]

this is the problem i was comming up with cos most the ninja that we knew from earlyer in the anime all had speacilized jutsu like chouji the size altering and kiba obvious with akamaru ino with the mind switching i just wondered if any one thought any other main charcters would have shown affinity to an elemant

[choucha0308]

I think the hokages and the sannins can use the 5 elements but my guess about their main one would be :

Shodaime : earth + water
Nidaime : water
Sandaime : fire
Yondaime : light ? (hiraishin no jutsu)

Jiraya : Fire
Oro : None is evil enough for him ^^ (but he used a wind jutsu during the chunnin exam)

Asuma : wind
Zabuza : water
Chouji : wind (IMO when Asuma said "I bet he's forgetten Chouji's in our team" he meant that Naruto could have asked to Chouji)
Uchiha brothers : fire
Gai & Lee : None
Gaara, Temari & Kankurou's Sensei : Wind (blade of wind)

[SilveryShadows]

Chouji : wind (IMO when Asuma said "I bet he's forgetten Chouji's in our team" he meant that Naruto could have asked to Chouji)

I'm sure that's not what Asuma meant. Asuma said Naruto had to buy BBQ/lunch(?) for their team, and Naruto agreed. Asuma said "I bet he's forgetten Chouji's in our team" because Chouji has a big stomach. Buying lunch for Chouji would drain the buyer's pockets. Naruto forgot about that.


There are also other 'non-element' jutsus that we don't know the reason for them. Remember one chapter, Naruto asked about shadow jutsus used by Shikamaru. Yamato/Kakashi did not explain those because they did not fall under the 5 elements.
So, just don't assume every jutsu is made up of elements is all.


But, I'll post some that we know they had used. (and ones that haven't been mentioned yet.)

Kisame - water
Kakashi can use probably all elements. We've seen him use wind, lightning, earth, water. Don't remember about fire, but pretty certain he can use that too.
Kakuzu - earth

(Would Gaara's sand be Wind + earth? Or just something of Shukaku's?)

[choucha0308]

I'm sure that's not what Asuma meant. Asuma said Naruto had to buy BBQ/lunch(?) for their team, and Naruto agreed. Asuma said "I bet he's forgetten Chouji's in our team" because Chouji has a big stomach. Buying lunch for Chouji would drain the buyer's pockets. Naruto forgot about that.


My bad, it's certainly what he meant >.<



Kakashi can use probably all elements.

I think so too but I don't remember him using the wind element. did he ?

[SilveryShadows]

I think so too but I don't remember him using the wind element. did he ?

I think I confused reg. Rasengan with FRS when I commented.
Otherwise, we just haven't seen him use wind yet..

[juUnior]

hmm Gaara for me if I assume would have wind element (when he was transformed in mini shukaku form or something like that, he used some futon technique) and maybe eatrh. It would be the best match.

For anybody else:
Kakashi - lightining, earth, water
Saske - lightining, fire
Asuma - wind, fire
Kisame - water
Itachi - fire of kors and probably some else thinge
Jiraya - I would say his earth type :x
And that all what i can think right now ;p

[Eyefarted2]

* not all characters have 2 elements

naruto-wind and water
sakura-fire and earth(her strength and temper)
sauske-lightning and fire
hinata-water(byakugan and juuken)
neji-water(byakugan and juuken)
shikamaru-shado(not sure that that is an element)
rock lee-unnecessary
tenten-wind and earth
ino-fire and wind
chouji-earth
shino-earth
kiba-wind and eath
asuma-wind and fire
kurenai-wind
kakashi-eartha and lightning
yamato-earth and water
temari-wind and earth
kankuro-earth and wind
gaara-earth and wind
jiraiya-earth and fire
tsunade-earth and wind
oro-earth

[Paz42]

right so there are what 5 elemants in the nartuo universe earth wind fire water and lightning so there must be other things that are able to mold into chakra such as shikas shadows but surely most people have at least one affinity towards a certain elemental chakra

[Rhan]

When Naruto asks about Shika's Chadow, Chouji's jutsus and medical ninjutsu, Yamato mentions Yin and Yang nature.

I don't think Kishi will develop more those nature, but I guess Shika is Yin (or Dark) element. Medical jutsu would be both, as well as Chouji's jutsus (inflatable bodies ? that's not so different of medical jutsu).
The difference between Yin & Yang and the other elements would be than they are both strong and weak against the other and both can be combined without requiring a Bloodline Limit.

[Paz42]

ye maybe your right that maybe aswell as the standard 5 elemants there is also yin and yang chakra like with the test using the elemant sensative paper, the paper turns black with a white spot or a black spot just appears to signafy weather or not they can using darkness (Yin) related things like shikas shadows or posotive(Yang) jutsus like sakuras healing. Or maybe there is some different kind of test t see if they can use for theese kind of things

[hmalik1003]

so i guess u can combine elemental with ying/yang. like hiei's "dragon of the darkness flame" that would be hot if sasuke pulled something like that off. I'm sure in the last sasuke v. naruto fight. they gonna do a light elemnt rasengan v. a black chidori.

[Strat]

jiraya: wind i think
sasuke: fire, lighting and maybe one more?
naruto: wind, i saw some ppl saying he has water, but that was yamato

[aznhotbod]

when was Naruto a water user?? I thought he's just wind so far.

Kakashi: rai, water for sure (he copied so many already), earth possibly with his doton decapitation move, he prolly has some fire affinity (anime did show him using katon, besides he mustve copied a handful from sasuke). the only thing he doesnt have is wind IMO.

Jiraiya: fire (in association with gama bunta), earth (most likely the Swamp attack)
Sandaime: fire (karyuuendan), earth (doryuudan)
Itachi: fire, probably copied Chidori if you ask me, lots water copied from Kisame, maybe some others.

We still dont know Tsunade's elemental affinity, or Sakura's for that matter.

For Gaara, i thought its wind and earth. Wind grinds up earth into sand..

Temari pawns with wind like the chick from Inuyasha..

[cogknack]

My guess about the shadow manipulation jitsu is it doesn't correspond to an element. Though it seems like it would combine with an element well. This whole element thing kind of feels a little tacked on really. Does the manga say shadow is an element?

[SilveryShadows]

My guess about the shadow manipulation jitsu is it doesn't correspond to an element. Though it seems like it would combine with an element well. This whole element thing kind of feels a little tacked on really. Does the manga say shadow is an element?

Shadow isn't an element, at least the manga hadn't stated so yet. Exactly what shadow is hadn't been explained yet either.

[cogknack]

Shadow isn't an element, at least the manga hadn't stated so yet. Exactly what shadow is hadn't been explained yet either.


incorrect, sir :p
shadows explained (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow)

[SilveryShadows]

incorrect, sir :p
shadows explained (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow)

1. Sir?! D: >>
(Man/dude as slangs, but sir??)
2. Doesn't trust wiki for information.
3. Not reading that.
4. I meant as in not one of the 5 elements. Shadow is different. Said here. (http://groups.msn.com/NarutoMangaReturns/volume35.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=25816)

[cogknack]

1. Oh i didn't realize you were female and btw sir isn't slang.
2. There is really no reason why you shouldn't. Most subjects don't give people incentive to discredit them and someone more knowledgeable on the subject will always come along and make corrections if needed.
3. Maybe you should
4.I was just pulling your leg. Hence the :p
Thank you for your time.

[SilveryShadows]

1. Oh i didn't realize you were female and btw sir isn't slang.
2. There is really no reason why you shouldn't. Most subjects don't give people incentive to discredit them and someone more knowledgeable on the subject will always come along and make corrections if needed.
3. Maybe you should
4.I was just pulling your leg. Hence the :p
Thank you for your time.

I know sir isn't slang, but... shrugs.
2&3 most info from wiki is inaccurate. I'd read the article if it isn't from another encyclopedia. Don't trust wiki for certain subjects/areas..
4. hmm.. k.
Back to the topic at hand.. though I don't have much else to discuss.

[cogknack]

When Naruto asks about Shika's Chadow, Chouji's jutsus and medical ninjutsu, Yamato mentions Yin and Yang nature.

I don't think Kishi will develop more those nature, but I guess Shika is Yin (or Dark) element. Medical jutsu would be both, as well as Chouji's jutsus (inflatable bodies ? that's not so different of medical jutsu).
The difference between Yin & Yang and the other elements would be than they are both strong and weak against the other and both can be combined without requiring a Bloodline Limit.



This makes sense. It seems that dark and light are often referenced as elements. I guess that answers the question.

[Paz42]

i figre the yin and yang is going to be explaned to us at some point or another seeing as yamato or kakashi said that it would be better to explane that at some other time so maybe naruto will have a a second elemant of either a yin or yang alignment i dont think he will be but it would be interesting to see where he would go with it.
ive been thinking about it and maybe most of the teams like shika ino chouji and neji tenten and lee and such dont have an elemental alignment seeing as people like Kiba and shika use speacilized jutsu that are passed on through the family and such so maybe they dont just a side throught

[naruto188]

I want to know sice naruto is a wind user what is sakura if anything. Personally i think she would be an earth user though i doubt she will become any of these.

Merged from another thread.

[starfall856]

I agree i dont think Sakura would be fire, or lighting, or wind, or water... seems like earth would be the element she would learn if she finally did learn one

[naruto188]

ye its funny how she finally catches up wiv naruto in skill then he goes and learns wind jutsu

[FatalFlaw]

I can't see Sakura doing Earth-based jutsu, or for that matter, anything besides medical and super strength. I can see her increasing her basic abilities and dabbling in the world of Genjutsu.

[JoJoJO]

If Sakura had an element it has to between Water and Earth.

Earth- symbolize strength

Water - symbolize healing

[Ishiken]

She already has one Yang based physical recomposition is probably what she uses.

[juUnior]

I agree i dont think Sakura would be fire, or lighting, or wind, or water... seems like earth would be the element she would learn if she finally did learn one

I have exactly the same thought about this, when i firstly read title topic ^^

Earth would be first in my list, if it would ever to appeared. Fire - i cant see her using that, because I think that from team 7 it will be only Saske scpeializaition. Lighting also, how it has to do with Kakashi and Saske. Remains water and wind.. with Wind beieng added to Naruto, I also cant see Sakura doing that. So maybe choose will be someday between Earth and Water? I would choose rather earth, because water always resemebls me of the country of mist :D

[mars0103]

I have exactly the same thought about this, when i firstly read title topic ^^

Earth would be first in my list, if it would ever to appeared. Fire - i cant see her using that, because I think that from team 7 it will be only Saske scpeializaition. Lighting also, how it has to do with Kakashi and Saske. Remains water and wind.. with Wind beieng added to Naruto, I also cant see Sakura doing that. So maybe choose will be someday between Earth and Water? I would choose rather earth, because water always resemebls me of the country of mist :D

each element repersents a village or country but i think it could be somthing different.

[Ishiken]

Country has nothing to do with the element of a ninja. Also she already has one that is required for Medical Jutsu, reread the section where Naruto asks about Shikimaru's shadow jutsu, Choiji's body alteration and medical Jutsu.

[aznhotbod]

i'd say she can stick to genjutsu (but Sasuke is already mastery at Genjutsu with sharingan). Maybe she'd become the best taijutsu of the 3. I do agree Earth would be her element.

[OP_overlord]

earth or water = strength and healing like someone else said (i liked that)
sasuke is a genjutsuand ninjutst specialist by nature (shringan helps alot) and he is really really good at taijutsu
naruto is good at tai and not much else
sakura is a natural at genjutsu (different then sasukes speciality) and she is super strong
in team seven sasuke is the strongest, then sakura and naruot but they both need to train alot harder to catch up to him

[hmalik1003]

are you saying sakura is stronger than naruto(way u worded it seems like ur saying she is stronger than him)? then i was thinking ok when u say strong u could mean brute strength but there r 2 flaws with that idea. 1....naruto's half completed wind rasengan is stronger and 2...you put sasuke in front of her and he doesn't have techniques that r extremly powerful when it comes to brute strength. he moreso relies on spped and his genious. so how is sakura stronger in than naruto cuz i definately see naruto with a betta chance of beating sasuke than sakura.

[OP_overlord]

i also see naruto with a better chance of beating sasuke if he uses the kyuubi but with out it sasuka wins as of now cause he is the "strongest" of the three in tai, nin, genjutsu so he wins. and while to so extent i did mean that sakura is stronger then naruto physicaly i also mean with out the kyuubi he would lose to her now even with his new rasengan all she has to do is hit him and she is done (the same does go for naruto hiting her but she is a better dodger than him just because she is a med. ninja). and thus as of right now i see it as sakura have a slight advantage over naruto. but while they will both grow in power sakura in med nin stuff and genjutsu, and naruto in everthing naruto will one day be able to rock sakura easy

[deathshadow25]

I believe that we can figure out sakuras affinity with a simple equation.

wind > lightning > earth > water > fire > wind

Primary Elements

Naruto = Wind

Sasuke= Fire

Sakura= Water

Kishi has always emphasized the struggle of power between the strong of heart (Naruto) and the smart of skill (Sasuke) he emphasized this with is introduction of elementals.

In chapter 333 Naruto says after Yamato explains the chain of power "So I have the right Affinity for Sasuke" and Yamato replies "Yes only Wind can defeat Lightning" Naruto then says "No I mean, The only thing that can save a fire from dying is Wind".

I like everyone else thinks that Sakura could get a water element. It signifies Healing and that makes sense given that one og her man abilities is as a med nin.

Secondary Elements

Naruto=?

Sasuke= Lightning

Sakura=?

now we don't know what Naruto and Sakuras elemenst are I thing we should refer back to the chart

wind > lightning > earth > water > fire > wind

now the possibilities could be anything, but if we include plot into the equation similar to the primary element equation

I think that

Naruto= Earth

Sasuke = Lightning

Sakura = ?

now that leaves only 2 possible choices water and wind. This last one won't be able to be solved right now in my opinion, because it needs elements in the story not yet present and thats who she likes more Naruto or Sasuke.

[Panda]

OK, this is it guys. What do you think Sakura's element is? Younger Generation: So far we've seen Sasuke, Naruto, Shikamaru instill element into their attacks.

Taking a look at how Kakuzu used Doton to power his attacks and defense. Sakura, having a similar power attack may very well also be using Doton.

[Warbee]

Wow, nice topic ^_^ My first thought would be "what is Tsunade's element?" although we've seen no evidence from any of the other Sannin of elemental jutsu (who all supposedly correlate with the three main naruto characters)...

I think you're probably onto something with Doton.

[Decorus]

Sakura uses Yang elemental manipulation like all medical ninja. You should know this as its part of the conversation that Naruto has with Kakashi about Elemental nature manipulation. Choiji also uses Yang for his body modification jutsu.

[Panda]

Sakura uses Yang elemental manipulation like all medical ninja. You should know this as its part of the conversation that Naruto has with Kakashi about Elemental nature manipulation. Choiji also uses Yang for his body modification jutsu.

Yang is not an element. As you might have noticed, Kakuzu used Doton to shift his Yang to the parts of his body where he is attacking or defending. Don't tell Panda that Yin and Yang are elements unless you want to say that Sakura's/Chouji's strength doesn't come from element. They are two kinds of chi/chakra in your body, however not elements.

[DarkManSharingan32]

To create a little bit of a Triangle between the three (Naruto Sakura and Sasuke)... I would like to see her show an Earth/Doton affinity.

As you know...

Earth is Superior to Water, but inferior to Lightning...
Which i think is a perfect fit for Sakura.. because it could make her a literal barrer between the two powerhouses. (P.S. i know Naruto isn't water, but wind could work the same way... and he might pick up that element later on... who knows.)

But who knows right?
Sakura should probably deal with Genjutsu first... and then find a way to unite both realms for an uber dimension like Genjutsu.

[Paz42]

i agree with darkmansharingan on this one i think she will have an earth/doton affinity (i suspect naruto may well have a secondary affinity for water but im not 100% sure on that one.) But i think we need to wait and see or to have the ying and yang explaned more til we understand if its like an elemant or if its different.

But one thing that i think i should bring up is that Sakura is a genjustu type right well have we ever accutaly seen her use any genjutsu ? i recently read the manga from the very beggining again and i dont really re-call her useing any accept maybe once in the chunnin exam but i cant be sure .


Yang is not an element. As you might have noticed, Kakuzu used Doton to shift his Yang to the parts of his body where he is attacking or defending. Don't tell Panda that Yin and Yang are elements unless you want to say that Sakura's/Chouji's strength doesn't come from element. They are two kinds of chi/chakra in your body, however not elements.

yang isnt an elemant no but kakashi does say to naruto that they are slightly different and would have to be explaned at a later date i think they will be similar to elemants in a sense as they need to be melded into chakra. But i dont recall it ever being stated that choji used yang.

[Decorus]

Chouji's Body Manipulation is yang, Medical Ninjutsu is Yang, Shikamaru's Shadow Jutsu are Yin. Genjutsu could be either Yin or Yang, but considering Tsunade can't use Genjutsu while Sakura can that means its more likely to be Yin.

Chouji uses the Physical recompostion of Yang Chakra to manipulate his physical form.
Sakura uses the Physical recompostion of Yang Chakra to heal.
Sakura also uses the Physical recompostion of Yang Chakra to enhance her strength.
Kakuzu used the Physical recompostion of Earth to prevent injuries to himself.

Since they require similar Physical recomposition training, they probably count as an element of sorts.

"It'll take a long time to explain explain those and if I explain it all at once it'll confuse you so..."

Is precisely what Kakashi said on the subject.

Sakura has yet to actually learn anything other then how to Cancel Genjutsu. However the Inner Sakura we used to see is more then likely a result of her affinity for Genjutsu.

[Panda]

Do you think we'd see an attack like

Doton: SHANNAROOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ?

[Paz42]

well i mean in narutomate hero she uses some basic genjusu but thats not canon so we shall ignore it and i would really like to see her use inner sakura as some form of powerful genjustu like to punish naruto

[sky_1185]

I would rather ignore Inner Sakura as far as a serious battle goes. It's just not realistic for her to unleash her 'inner' self to take out a member of akatsuki. We also don't know what Tsunade knows either and I'd say it's safe to assume that whatever Sakura knows is something that Tsunade taught her.

It's hard to say what element she'll be if she ever develops one. I would say that she either is going to go further into the genjutsu tree like Kurenai or she's going to be something like Earth or Water. Since Sasuke is Lighting and Fire so far and Naruto has only shown an affinity towards wind I would expect something like Water from Sakura. Only to help Naruto counter Sasuke better. Since Naruto's wind can counter Sasuke's lightning but not his fire we'd need Sakura to have water so she can counter his fire.

[Panda]

What do you guys think will be the result of Ten Ten being able to use wind and/or lightning element in her weapon attacks? >:)

[sky_1185]

I don't see tenten acquiring wind/lightning as an element. I rather see her as a fire type. She already uses explosive tags on her weapons with ease, it makes sense in my eyes for her to develop a fire element so she could have any weapon ready to explode with a new fire jutsu or something that would make the kunai, shuriken or whatever she's throwing explode whenever she wants without having to prepare tags.

we already have primary wind and lightning users, I wouldn't want to see it repeated in one of the original gennin. So far Gai's team doesn't have elements to them. Lee is pure melee combat and if he can't even perform basic jutsu I don't know if he'll have an element. Neji has byakugan and uses the gentle fist style so I don't see an element for him as well. Same with tenten, she relies on her weapons and her range and honestly if she is going to develop an element I would hope that it be fire.

[Decorus]

Neji has used a Wind attack during his fight with Kisame, but Kakashi said there was only one other Wind elemental user besides Naruto in the Village. (Eight Way Wind Palm).

[sky_1185]

mmm, I know what you're talking about. I don't know what scan you have and I know the translations differ to each group almost but the one I read says 'Eight Trigram Vacuum Palm' and another one I read was something along the lines of 'palm thrust' or something.

I don't think neji actually used a wind element, I think it was more along the lines of him pushes chakra out of his hand so quickly it was like a burst of air.

[GOKURO-3君]

Guess a random character's chakra element (or second chakra element if they possibly could have one) and explain why you chose that element. The reason could be because of evidence, personality or even because of the name of the character or character background. Just don't point out chakra elements of characters that have already been revealed.

-My Idea-

I think Kurenai's other element is fire because her name (Yuuhi Kurenai) means Dawn Red.

Merged from another thread.

[Decorus]

Sasuke can't just copy elemental Manipulations he has to undergo the training just like everyone else including Nagato.

Chouji's body Manipulation jutsu aren't elemental they are Yin/Yang just like Medical and Shikamaru's Shadow jutsu.

[KnuckleheadedNinja]

Neji has used a Wind attack during his fight with Kisame, but Kakashi said there was only one other Wind elemental user besides Naruto in the Village. (Eight Way Wind Palm).

i don't think that was wind. i think it more like an outburst of charka.

[gfire2]

i think becoz the anime/shippuden movie, everything that associates with wind chakra some how always relates to controlling the air around it but i makes sense but it wouldnt apply to the narutoverse

but neji's atk is more like thrusting out a huge amount of chakra it pushes the air realli fast kinda like the sonic boom

[kkck]

i don't think that was wind. i think it more like an outburst of charka.

Wasnt that wind attack anime only?

[ornis]

In what episode would you recall Neji's Air Palm being called a wind attack? In the same manner he does the Air Palm, Neji also expels chakra to do his Heavenly Spin. But, that last attack isn't considered a wind-based attack--neither should it be. I wonder why the anime would describe either skill as wind-based.

[agentzero]

hello, this is my first post and i hope it's a helpful contribution. i've made a list of every character that uses elemental manipulation in the manga and what elements they can use. i know that there another thread for discussion of the elements, but i think that this deservses it's own thread (if a moderater disagrees, then feel free to merge this thread with the other). so, here it is.

Character-----------------------------------------Elemental Manipulations

Baki-----------------------------------------------------Wind

Deidara-------------------------------------------------Earth

Fukasaku (aka “pa”)-------------------------------------Wind

Gaara---------------------------------------------------Wind*

Gamabunta----------------------------------------------Water

Gouzu (rogue-nin that kakashi defeated in land of waves arc)-----Water

Haku--------------------------------------------Water, Wind, Ice**

Hatake Kakashi----------------------------------Earth, Water, Lightning

Hoozuki Suigetsu-----------------------------------------Water

Hoshigaki Kisame-----------------------------------------Water, Earth

Jiraiya------------------------------------------------Earth, Fire

Jiroubou--------------------------------------------------Earth

Kakkou (rock-nin from kakashi gaiden)----------------------Earth

Kakuzu----------------------------------Earth, Water, Fire, Wind, Lightning

Kamatari (weasel temari summons)--------------------------Wind

Kamizuki Izumo---------------------------------------------Water

Killer Bee--------------------------------------------------Lightning

Meizu (rogue-nin that kakashi defeated in land of waves arc)----Water

Momochi Zabuza---------------------------------------------Water

Nagato---------------------------Wind, Earth, Water, Fire, Lightning***

Nibi-----------------------------------------------------------Fire

Nii Yugito-----------------------------------------------------Fire****

Orochimaru---------------------------------------------------Wind, Earth

Pain--------------------------------Earth, Water, Fire, Wind, Lightning***

Rikudou Sennin-------------------Earth, Water, Fire, Wind, Lightning***

Roushi (Yonbi jinchuuriki)----------------------------Earth, Fire, Magma**

Sanbi--------------------------------------------------------Water

Sarutobi Asuma---------------------------------------------Wind, Fire

Sarutobi Hiruzen(aka sandaime)------------------------------Fire, Earth

Senju Hashirama(aka shodai)------------------------Earth, Water, Wood**

Senju Tobirama(aka nidaime)------------------------------------Water

Shima(aka "ma")-------------------------------------------------Fire

Shukaku--------------------------------------------------------Wind

Temari-----------------------------------------------------------Wind

Tsunade----------------------------------------------Lightning******

Uchiha Fugaku----------------------------------------------------Fire

Uchiha Itachi------------------------------------------------Fire, Water

Uchiha Obito--------------------------------------------------Fire

Uchiha Sasuke--------------------------------------------Fire, Lightning

Uzumaki Naruto----------------------------------------------Wind

Yahiko-------------------------------------------------------Water

Yamato--------------------------------------------Water, Earth, Wood**


*The only time Gaara uses Wind Style: Infinite Sandstorm Devastation is when in half Shukaku mode.

** Combination of two elements.

*** Nagato has only been shown to use wind, while Pain and Rikudou Sennin have yet to use any element. However, characters with the Rin’negan are presumed to possess all elemental manipulations.

****Nii Yugito never uses a fire jutsu, but it is assumed that she has the same element as her biju

******Tsunade changes her chakra into electricity to scramble kabuto’s nevrves (Ranshinshou is the jutsu name). Even though this jutsu wasn't specifically named a lightning jutsu, she could only do this if she was a lightning user.(according to Kakashi, elemental manipulation is physicaly recomposing your chakra to resemble an element. This is exactly what tsunade did.)


If a character isnt on the list, he/she hasn't used any element yet. If i missed anyone or left out an element for someone, please let me know. Also, this list is for the manga, so if a character uses an element in the anime or a video game only, i won't count it. e.g: kakashi using a fire style against naruto and sakura during a filler scene. this was never shown in the manga, so it is not canon material.

[ophidial]

Hey thanks, its nice to see everything complied up.
Also, just read over the list and i was curious, does it state in the databook that orochimaru
use wind??

[nahkampfbiber]

Heh, I made the same list sometime ago (but don't have it anymore).
I don't think I had Tsunade in it, though. It's somewhat hard to say if the thing you mentioned is actually a lightning technique. And there are other jutsu where it isn't really explicitly stated, whether they are elemental or not, but anyways... Thanks!

[jodi]

I guess Jiraiya's oil is water type?

in the anime, Kakashi used a katon, but I guess it doesn't count right

[Tsukisama]

Interesting list. Just to add one that you did not mention: Roushi (the host of Yonbi). He uses a lava/magma fusion element (presumably fire and earth).

[LanderZ]

Few issues.

1) Meiseigakure no Jutsu. Reading DB2, page 278, I see zero references to Tsuchi/Do [土] indicating it to be of Earth Element. In fact, in KG, it is called out as "Ninpou", which implies no element.

You might be able to assume an Iwanin uses Doton Jutsu, but if you're going for an accurate list, it doesn't work. Plus, we don't see every Konohanin using Katon and Mokuton, so the elements-based-on-nation isn't always justified.

2) Likewise, DB2 pg. 284 does use the term Den [電] a few times, but IIRC, this Jutsu is considered an Irou, or Medical Ninjutsu, moreso than a Raiton. I'll have to confirm with my Translator, but I believe this does not prove Tsunade's element, or else we'd have been more likely to see her using more Raiton Ninjutsu, especially with the uses it could have on a medical basis.


3) Oro uses a C-ranked Fuuton: Daitoppa, which may or may not indicate an elemental affinity for Wind. I'd like to think it does, but we can't say for certain.

4) How is Aoba Fire-element? Are you taking this from his Anime-only Katon Goukakyuu used in the fights at the Chuunin Shiken? His Crow-Jutsu seems to be a little more viable, IMO, and that's a C-ranked Sanzengarasu. Doesn't give an element, but I don't think he's actually fire. Might as well say Raiga was Lightning, if we're taking Filler stuff.


5) I'm not going to re-read the page, but IIRC, Fukasaku's Zessenzan was a Senjutsu that used a tight spray of water, not air.

[agentzero]

thanks for the replies.


I guess Jiraiya's oil is water type?

in the anime, Kakashi used a katon, but I guess it doesn't count right


about jutsu like jiraiya's toad oil, im pretty sure that they have no element. toads produce oil naturally (i think, atleast they do in the naruto world), so it would probably be in the same class as kidoumaru's spider web jutsus, where the body makes a substance and mixes it with chakra, as opposed to water style jutsu, where the chakra is actually changed into water.


1) Meiseigakure no Jutsu. Reading DB2, page 278, I see zero references to Tsuchi/Do [土] indicating it to be of Earth Element. In fact, in KG, it is called out as "Ninpou", which implies no element.

You might be able to assume an Iwanin uses Doton Jutsu, but if you're going for an accurate list, it doesn't work. Plus, we don't see every Konohanin using Katon and Mokuton, so the elements-based-on-nation isn't always justified.

sorry for this mistake, i couldn't remember if the databook actually called it an earth or not, ill correct it.


2) Likewise, DB2 pg. 284 does use the term Den [電] a few times, but IIRC, this Jutsu is considered an Irou, or Medical Ninjutsu, moreso than a Raiton. I'll have to confirm with my Translator, but I believe this does not prove Tsunade's element, or else we'd have been more likely to see her using more Raiton Ninjutsu, especially with the uses it could have on a medical basis.


kakashi described elemental manipulation as changing your chakra into an element. so while tsunade probably needed a good amount of medical knowledge to execute this jutsu, being able to change her chakra into electricity indicates she is able to use lightning jutsu. whether that is her main element or not is iffy however. thats why i put in an explanation.


3) Oro uses a C-ranked Fuuton: Daitoppa, which may or may not indicate an elemental affinity for Wind. I'd like to think it does, but we can't say for certain.

this indicates he is able to use wind element jutsu. im not saying its the only element he can use, but it is the only element we've seen or heard of him using. i also don't think you can use an element if it's not one of your affinities, although that's not confirmed.


4) How is Aoba Fire-element? Are you taking this from his Anime-only Katon Goukakyuu used in the fights at the Chuunin Shiken? His Crow-Jutsu seems to be a little more viable, IMO, and that's a C-ranked Sanzengarasu. Doesn't give an element, but I don't think he's actually fire. Might as well say Raiga was Lightning, if we're taking Filler stuff.


sorry, i took a quick look at ch. 116, the one where a random leaf-nin uses a fire jutsu. the anime changed this to aoba, and when i checked it previously, i was only looking to see if a fire jutsu was used, and missed that in the manga, it wasn't aoba. ill correct this too.


Interesting list. Just to add one that you did not mention: Roushi (the host of Yonbi). He uses a lava/magma fusion element (presumably fire and earth).

actually, roushi is already on the list.
Really? I suppose I overlooked it. Sorry. :p

thanks again for the replies.

[LanderZ]

Just confirming, I spoke to my translator....

She changes her chakra into something akin to electricity and send it into the body. So its not a Raiton by that explanation. But Raikir/Chidori had the same explanation the first time, since these two predated the whole Seishitsu/Keitai henka thing. So it very well might be a Raiton now.

FYI

[agentzero]

5) I'm not going to re-read the page, but IIRC, Fukasaku's Zessenzan was a Senjutsu that used a tight spray of water, not air.

sorry, missed this while reading your post the first time. i actually totally forgot about the jutsu your refering to, ill have to add water to fukasaku, but i got wind from ch. 377 page 8-9. shima(aka "ma") says "Fine, I'll just fry somethin' up. Kid, you bring the oil. Pa, you fan the flames!". then jiraiya spits out a stream of oil, shima ignites it with a katon, and pa "fans the flames" with a blast of wind, similar to how kakuzu combined a katon and a fuuton to increase the power of the katon. which reminds me, i forgot to put shima down as using katon. ill do that as soon as im done with this post.

also, thanks for the confirmation on the translation about tsunade's nerve scrambling jutsu(can't remember the name atm). i was already aware that the jutsu wasn't specifically called a raiton, but the way elemental manipulation was defined in the manga is exactly the way they describe tsunade's jutsu.

[Poisok2]

Oi. Congratulations for the post. Somebody really had to do a post like this to end some speculation.

Just three little issues:

- Kisame also uses Earth, in the technique he uses to swim through the earth with Samehada above, like a shark (don't know its name)

- Also, Orochimaru also spies while underground, and so I think we can consider he also uses Doton

- According to a databook translation by tora-chan, Fukasaku uses his tongue, and not water, for the technique you refered

[LanderZ]

Oi. Congratulations for the post. Somebody really had to do a post like this to end some speculation.

Just three little issues:

- Kisame also uses Earth, in the technique he uses to swim through the earth with Samehada above, like a shark (don't know its name)

- Also, Orochimaru also spies while underground, and so I think we can consider he also uses Doton

- According to a databook translation by tora-chan, Fukasaku uses his tongue, and not water, for the technique you refered

For the Kisame one, yeah. I forgot about that, too. Dochuu Senkou, or Underground Submarine or some such.... turns the surrounding earth to sand and then you swim through it. C-ranked.

Oro's underground spying might be a Jutsu as simple as Dochuu Eigyo, but who's to say. Good catch.

And I wasn't aware that that was Fukasaku's tongue. http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/376/08/ Looks like a heavy spray of water, suddenly condensed down into "Jet" spray mode, IMO. But, again, that's just opinion.... I haven't inquired with my translator about the page in question.

[agentzero]

Oi. Congratulations for the post. Somebody really had to do a post like this to end some speculation.

Just three little issues:

- Kisame also uses Earth, in the technique he uses to swim through the earth with Samehada above, like a shark (don't know its name)

- Also, Orochimaru also spies while underground, and so I think we can consider he also uses Doton

- According to a databook translation by tora-chan, Fukasaku uses his tongue, and not water, for the technique you refered


For the Kisame one, yeah. I forgot about that, too. Dochuu Senkou, or Underground Submarine or some such.... turns the surrounding earth to sand and then you swim through it. C-ranked.

Oro's underground spying might be a Jutsu as simple as Dochuu Eigyo, but who's to say. Good catch.

And I wasn't aware that that was Fukasaku's tongue. http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/376/08/ Looks like a heavy spray of water, suddenly condensed down into "Jet" spray mode, IMO. But, again, that's just opinion.... I haven't inquired with my translator about the page in question.

thanks for that. ill add earth to kisame and orochimaru now.

about fukasaku though, he definiately used a wind jutsu in ch. 377, and i also agree with LanderZ, i think that the jutsu in 376 looks alot like water, similar to what sasori used against sakura and chiyo in the anime(the reason i didnt put this one is because sasori actually stored the water in a scroll and used a puppet mechanism to shoot it, and it was also anime only. he used the fire in the manga though, but it was also stored in a scroll).

[LanderZ]

I hate to do this, but I see Shita [舌] a few times in the pg 277 DB3.... Looks like Fukasaku is just tonguing, not spraying.

[agentzero]

I hate to do this, but I see Shita [舌] a few times in the pg 277 DB3.... Looks like Fukasaku is just tonguing, not spraying.

k, ill remove water from fukasaku. thanks for the info.

[Quartz-pebble]

So, is this a list of Character's presumed/known Elemental affinities, or Elemental techniques that we've witnessed them use?

Kakashi stated that most ninja have at least two affinities, and that is usually the maximum, as I recall.

I would therefore assume that Kakashi and anyone else with the Sharingan has a maximum of two affinities and can replicate the elemental techniques of their opponents.

Kakashi is likely Earth and Lightning, and used Zabuza's Water techniques while fighting him.

What I'm trying to say is that theoretically, the Sharingan can replicate any Element, even if it's one the user does not have for an affinity.

[LanderZ]

So, is this a list of Character's presumed/known Elemental affinities, or Elemental techniques that we've witnessed them use?

Kakashi stated that most ninja have at least two affinities, and that is usually the maximum, as I recall.


He never says maximum. He says most Jounin can use 2 / at least 2, depending on translation.




I would therefore assume that Kakashi and anyone else with the Sharingan has a maximum of two affinities and can replicate the elemental techniques of their opponents.

Kakashi is likely Earth and Lightning, and used Zabuza's Water techniques while fighting him.

What I'm trying to say is that theoretically, the Sharingan can replicate any Element, even if it's one the user does not have for an affinity.

Kakashi also uses Suikoudan against Kisame, and Suijunheki against both Itachi and Kakuzu [never saw this get copied, so we have no way of knowing if this was a copied or learned Jutsu. Presumably copied at some point].

I also don't recall any Sharingan users using all 5 elements at any point, save for Filler....

[Quartz-pebble]

He never says maximum. He says most Jounin can use 2 / at least 2, depending on translation.

Yeah, I figured I was wrong on that....I knew someone'd correct me, though. ;)






Kakashi also uses Suikoudan against Kisame, and Suijunheki against both Itachi and Kakuzu [never saw this get copied, so we have no way of knowing if this was a copied or learned Jutsu. Presumably copied at some point].

I also don't recall any Sharingan users using all 5 elements at any point, save for Filler....

Ok, he likely is all three, then. And no, no Sharingan user in the manga thus far has used all elements. I just figured they probably could.

[Ayle]

What is the kyubbi chakra element? Fire?

[agentzero]

So, is this a list of Character's presumed/known Elemental affinities, or Elemental techniques that we've witnessed them use?

Kakashi stated that most ninja have at least two affinities, and that is usually the maximum, as I recall.

I would therefore assume that Kakashi and anyone else with the Sharingan has a maximum of two affinities and can replicate the elemental techniques of their opponents.

Kakashi is likely Earth and Lightning, and used Zabuza's Water techniques while fighting him.

What I'm trying to say is that theoretically, the Sharingan can replicate any Element, even if it's one the user does not have for an affinity.

apart from nii yugito, tsunade, and the rin'negan users, every element is confirmed by the character using a jutsu of that element in the manga.

for nii yugito, her biju is fire element, and her biju form is made of fire, so she can obviously use fire jutsu. whether that was an affinity or not before she became a jinchuuriki we dont know however.

for tsunade, she uses a jutsu that, while not specifically called a lightning jutsu, definately uses lightning elemental manipulation.

for characters with the rin'negan, jiraiya states that nagato can use all elements, and implies that this is because of the rin'negan. ive also heard, though not actually confirmed, that the 3rd databook heavily implies in nagato's bio that the rin'negan gives the possesser all elemental manipulations.

so apart from those 3 execptions, all these characters have been seen using the elements listed for them, or other characters have stated that they use the elements listed.

the only known limit on elements is what jiraiya said. he said no ninja could possess all the elements. some have obviously overcome this limit by unconventional means, e.g. kakuzu. but nowhere was it said that 2 is the max.

about the sharingan being able to replicate elements the user doesnt possess, that issue is never touched in the manga. if i had to choose one way or the other, id say no, but even if it can, you would think that jutsu of there own affinity would be far more effective than jutsu that they arent compatable with. but unless the manga says otherwise, i will only put elements the sharingan users have actually used, or have been said by the manga to use.

[ware]

for tsunade, she uses a jutsu that, while not specifically called a lightning jutsu, definately uses lightning elemental manipulation.

This is just me being a nitpicker, but it is entirely possible that Ranshinshou is a keitaihenka jutsu. We've been told outright that it is possible to manipulate chakra into specific forms without it being elemental. Look at Rasengan, Jiraiya describes it as chakra moving like a compressed tornado. But its not wind manipulation. Ranshinshou could simply be a pure chakra jutsu that is manipulated by Tsunade to resemble electricity.

And then again, it could be a Raiton after all. :p

As for the 2 elements per Jounin thing. I think whats making it confusing is probably a translation mistake or summat. What Kakashi tells Naruto is that Jounin class ninjas all pretty much have two or more elements. Of course, the 'pretty much' is directed towards shinobi who focus on genjutsu like Kurenai or medical jutsu like Shizune or taijutsu like Gai or on their kekkei genkais like Kimimaro. Or just Jounins who really specialize in one element. Jounins are not restricted to two elements. It also doesn't mean they're all uber at all 5 elements.

Hope that helps some. >.> It sounds to me like I'm beating a dead horse though.

[agentzero]

What is the kyubbi chakra element? Fire?

as far as we know, the kyuubi has no element. it's chakra is described as evil/demonic/malevolent ect.


This is just me being a nitpicker, but it is entirely possible that Ranshinshou is a keitaihenka jutsu. We've been told outright that it is possible to manipulate chakra into specific forms without it being elemental. Look at Rasengan, Jiraiya describes it as chakra moving like a compressed tornado. But its not wind manipulation. Ranshinshou could simply be a pure chakra jutsu that is manipulated by Tsunade to resemble electricity.

And then again, it could be a Raiton after all.

As for the 2 elements per Jounin thing. I think whats making it confusing is probably a translation mistake or summat. What Kakashi tells Naruto is that Jounin class ninjas all pretty much have two or more elements. Of course, the 'pretty much' is directed towards shinobi who focus on genjutsu like Kurenai or medical jutsu like Shizune or taijutsu like Gai or on their kekkei genkais like Kimimaro. Or just Jounins who really specialize in one element. Jounins are not restricted to two elements. It also doesn't mean they're all uber at all 5 elements.

Hope that helps some. >.> It sounds to me like I'm beating a dead horse though.

rasengan was never described as "turn your chakra into wind and spiral it", just spiraling chakra. the tornando was a metaphor, meant to describe to naruto the motion of the chakra, not meant to actually describe the type of chakra. it is specifically stated that tsunade's Ranshinshou (thanks for the name) turns her chakra into electricity. what you said,


Ranshinshou could simply be a pure chakra jutsu that is manipulated by Tsunade to resemble electricity.

this would be exactly how elemental manipulation is carried out. pure chakra manipulated to resemble an element.

about the second part of your post, i totaly agree with you on that. most jounin have 2+ elements, but that doesnt mean they are stronger than other jounin, just that they have more options when it comes to countering an opponent's elemental jutsu.

[TheChosenOne]

the only known limit on elements is what jiraiya said. he said no ninja could possess all the elements. some have obviously overcome this limit by unconventional means, e.g. kakuzu. but nowhere was it said that 2 is the max.

I think Jiraiya stated that no ninja can use all 6 elements (http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-375/page011.html) (unless it's a mistranslation), not the 5 that have been shown. So Kakuzu being able to use 5 is within the bounds of Jiraiya's statement. :)

[LanderZ]

rasengan was never described as "turn your chakra into wind and spiral it", just spiraling chakra. the tornando was a metaphor, meant to describe to naruto the motion of the chakra, not meant to actually describe the type of chakra.

He didn't mean a Tornado as in Wind element. Hence why he specifically states, in the next sentence, that it is NOT Wind Manipulation, but rather a spiral/current/violent circulation of chakra. It is solely shape manipulation, no elemental bit to it at all.

That being said, in DB1/2, a lot of the "elemental" Jutsu are described in that manner, since the basics of elemental manipulation had not been decided/stated yet. I don't personally believe Rasengan is Fuuton, as Naruto later makes a Fuuton: Rasengan, and it looks noticably different. But you have to understand that it is still purely ASSUMPTION that Ranshinshou is Raiton. There is no PROOF of it, and therefore there is no way for you to currently PROVE it. Argue/debate it all you like, it's still an assumption.

I am of the opinion that it could very well be Raiton, but I don't care enough to debate those merits.




it is specifically stated that tsunade's Ranshinshou (thanks for the name) turns her chakra into electricity. this would be exactly how elemental manipulation is carried out. pure chakra manipulated to resemble an element.

If we went strictly by this definition, Rasengan is Fuuton. But we know Rasengan is NOT Fuuton. Hence why we can't use this arguement as proof. That's what ware was saying.



I think Jiraiya stated that no ninja can use all 6 elements (http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-375/page011.html) (unless it's a mistranslation), not the 5 that have been shown. So Kakuzu being able to use 5 is within the bounds of Jiraiya's statement. :)

The only time I recall seeing anything about 6 elements is Jiraiya remembering Nagato's training, and saying he could use Jutsu from all 6 elements. I'm not sure if this was a translation typo [never saw the RAW], or a Kishimoto mistake, but we see it as "5 elements" in the Databook. Also, Kakuzu is an exception based on his ability to steal hearts and use their chakra element.... I imagine Sasori was able to do something similar, as he could use his Hitokugutsu's Kekkei Genkai, so I imagine elements weren't out of the question.

[wildG]

I have found Madara's elements =P we have seen Madara on the fight sasuke vs deidara , deidara telling madara to plant some bombs underground so i suppose he used a doton jutsu to go underground or something lol! so here we go

Katon & Doton

[Quartz-pebble]

I have found Madara's elements =P we have seen Madara on the fight sasuke vs deidara , deidara telling madara to plant some bombs underground so i suppose he used a doton jutsu to go underground or something lol! so here we go

Katon & Doton

This is a good presumption, but at the same time, we haven't seen him do -anything- yet. :P

[Shaunlim]

I would like to add in Sai as a Doton user. We have seen him appearing out of the ground after Oro destroyed his Ink Bunshin.

[ware]

I have found Madara's elements =P we have seen Madara on the fight sasuke vs deidara , deidara telling madara to plant some bombs underground so i suppose he used a doton jutsu to go underground or something lol! so here we go

Katon & Doton

Well Madara's main element being Fire is a safe bet as he's an Uchiha. And because he's an Uchiha, and a freaking old one at that, he's probably seen jutsus from all elements in combat. So its probably another safe bet that he's copied jutsus from all five elements. Maybe even all six(assuming the sixth is the Ying-Yang chakra and is not some super-duper-Rinnegan-only chakra). Its probably part of why he's able to push Pain around, excluding Kishi's Uchiha love.

But yeah, I'm going for Madara being an All-Element ninja.

[wildG]

Well Madara's main element being Fire is a safe bet as he's an Uchiha. And because he's an Uchiha, and a freaking old one at that, he's probably seen jutsus from all elements in combat. So its probably another safe bet that he's copied jutsus from all five elements. Maybe even all six(assuming the sixth is the Ying-Yang chakra and is not some super-duper-Rinnegan-only chakra). Its probably part of why he's able to push Pain around, excluding Kishi's Uchiha love.

But yeah, I'm going for Madara being an All-Element ninja.

yeah but none the less he still is best in 2 elements, see kakashi, he used suiton while fighting zabuza but he aint good in using it compared to raiton, its safe to assume that he can use many elements but still i believe that katon & doton is his profession/nature

[slmcknett]

wouldn't guy (or gai) have fire elemental affinity. because his asakujaku attack looked like fireballs erupting from his fists. this might just be a visual representation of his speed, but its likely that it could have been a fire style jutsu.

[badluckartist]

Morning Peacock is not Katon; it was pure Taijutsu. I'd imagine that the friction from the speed of his fists against the air created the flames.

Also, I'd like to mention that Suiton is possibly Kakashi's 'secondary' affinity, after Raiton. He's one of the few characters shown in the series able to create a huge amount of water without a natural source of it nearby. As an off-topic side note, it appears that Suiton is a difficult element to create on it's own.

[LanderZ]

Hard to say.... We've seen Kakashi use 2 Raiton Ninjutsu, of (Either A/S rank, depending on the DB) and a presumebly B ranked Raiken (Lightning Dog). That's all he's used for Raiton.... But they are high ranked, and Kakashi has admitted to having Lightning Chakra.


As for a second element.... we've only seen Kakashi use up-to B rank Doton, and up-to A rank Suiton. We've been told that B-ranks are considered high-enough that you need affinity to use, so.... It's hard to say. Suijunheki versus both Itachi and Kakuzu looked quite challenging, too.

[Delbi]

Hard to say.... We've seen Kakashi use 2 Raiton Ninjutsu, of (Either A/S rank, depending on the DB) and a presumebly B ranked Raiken (Lightning Dog). That's all he's used for Raiton.... But they are high ranked, and Kakashi has admitted to having Lightning Chakra.


As for a second element.... we've only seen Kakashi use up-to B rank Doton, and up-to A rank Suiton. We've been told that B-ranks are considered high-enough that you need affinity to use, so.... It's hard to say. Suijunheki versus both Itachi and Kakuzu looked quite challenging, too.

Just because a ninja uses a high ranking suiton or doton, DOES NOT MEAN THEY HAVE THAT AFFINITY. Where was it ever said that you need a affinity to use a B rank elemental ninjutsu?

Like it has been said before, having an elemental affinity means you can recompose your chakra into that given element, not that you can not use ninjutsu involving that element.

Kakashi uses a lot of suitons and dotons because water and earth are easily found and he is a ninjutsu specialist. He never actually creates water or earth. Kakashi actually creates lightning.

This is a pretty easy concept to get people. I don't get how the creator of this threads thinks Kisame has the earth element, and Itachi has the water one. Some of his other guesses like Tsuande having the lightning one are questionable too, because she could simply be harnessing/amplifying the small amount of natural electricity in her own or Kabuto's body with medical jutsu.

Again Orochimaru having Earth element is questionable, since Earth is all around him, and he too is a ninjutsu specialist so he could easily manipulate it.

A perfect example of an Earth user would be Kakazu, as he turns his skin into Iron. I personally think Gaara has the Earth element seeing as how he can manipulate sand with ease, but you could argue that it isn't even Earth manipulation but simply sand manipulation given to him by his old Biju.

[Forever_Melody]

Actually, the water for the Suijinheki Kakashi used against Kakuzu here (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/336/12/) seems to have been created created by him as:
a) there is no water in the immediate vicinity
b) the water blast basically shoots back to Kakashi
c) Kakashi seems to be cuping his hand as if he'd spouted it from his mouth

Therefore, I'd assume Kakashi can turn his chakra into water from this example. I don't know if he actually has water affinity, but he can certainly create water from his chakra.

Btw, is there such a thing as using Katon without your chakra? So far, all we've seen from Katon is spewing it from your mouth, but can it be used with surrounding fire? Because that'd mean that no Katon user can practice without having an actual affinity by delbi's definition.

[Delbi]

Actually, the water for the Suijinheki Kakashi used against Kakuzu here (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/336/12/) seems to have been created created by him as:
a) there is no water in the immediate vicinity
b) the water blast basically shoots back to Kakashi
c) Kakashi seems to be cuping his hand as if he'd spouted it from his mouth

Therefore, I'd assume Kakashi can turn his chakra into water from this example. I don't know if he actually has water affinity, but he can certainly create water from his chakra.

Btw, is there such a thing as using Katon without your chakra? So far, all we've seen from Katon is spewing it from your mouth, but can it be used with surrounding fire? Because that'd mean that no Katon user can practice without having an actual affinity by delbi's definition.

If that's the case, Kakashi may have the Water Element, I forgot about him doing that when he fought Kakazu. If he created the water, than yes he would have the affinity. I'd like to see better proof, because we don't know if there were nearby streams or anything, but if he did indeed create the water then he does have the affinity.

As for the Katon thing, I think we can assume it is possible based on the fact that water and earth can be controlled without owning the element, so there should be no reason the same can't be said for fire.

[wildG]

i have read recently some things about madara in various forums and i think that madara have mastered Katon, Suiton and Fuuton because

Katon : Uchiha Element

Suiton : Since hes the Kaze and probably founder of Kirigakure which is in the country of "Water" so its quite safe to assume he has a mastery in suiton too

Fuuton: now thats kinda wild as we know Madara has a fan in his back what if he used this fan to create huge storms combining this weapon and his fuuton jutsus and then using these storms to boost his Katon and Suiton Jutsus! Temari style usage of his fan

[segua]

i have read recently some things about madara in various forums and i think that madara have mastered Katon, Suiton and Fuuton because

Katon : Uchiha Element

Suiton : Since hes the Kaze and probably founder of Kirigakure which is in the country of "Water" so its quite safe to assume he has a mastery in suiton too

Fuuton: now thats kinda wild as we know Madara has a fan in his back what if he used this fan to create huge storms combining this weapon and his fuuton jutsus and then using these storms to boost his Katon and Suiton Jutsus! Temari style usage of his fan

Well, it's said that a jounin knows at least 2 elements. For a ninja of Madara's caliber, I wouldn't be surprised if he mastered a few elements. He also lived for a very long time.

[Iwashi_Tatami]

As far as I can tell, in terms of affinities, any ninja is capable of using any element, with emphasis on the words "capable" and "using." An elemental affinity has been stated as allowing a ninja to use one specific element with more ease and with more power. Kakashi, for example, has an affinity for Lightning. Therefore, he is capable of learning high-leveled Raiton techniques without too much difficulty, and executing them with maximum power.

However, this only pertains to his affinity itself. Nowhere in the manga has it said that an "anti-affinity" exists. That is to say, while a ninja may naturally be more proficient in one element, he is not incapable of using others. I think it's important to note that any given ninja has only one elemental affinity (with the exception of Kekkei Genkai users like Hashirama or Haku, who have two). Kakashi said that most Jounin can use two or more elements, not that they have affinities for two or more. There is a difference between having an affinity to an element and being able to use an element. Going back to Kakashi as an example, while his affinity is Raiton, he has been shown using fairly high-level Suiton and Douton techniques. Using multiple elements, I believe, has nothing to do with the ninja's affinity, but rather with the ninja's natural ability and work-ethic as well as the ambition to learn another composition.

For example, Asuma is known to have an affinity for Wind. As it is known that when Wind and Fire combine, they create a more powerful technique, Fire would seem to be a good element to couple with his affinity (this may not be the specific reason, but it is known that he uses both Wind and Fire). Therefore, since Asuma is a skilled ninja, he learned to compose his chakra into Fire, just as he learned to compose his chakra into Wind. However, since he does not have an affinity for Fire, it will take more time and effort to learn to utilize the element, and the resultant techniques will not be as powerful as his Wind techniques. I believe that, going by this, any ninja can train to use all five elements with enough time and practice. However, all secondary elements will indisputably be weaker than the affinity of the user. This is what makes Pein and Kakuzu special- not that they can use all five elements, but that they have affinities to all five elements (and therefore use high-powered techniques of all elements, which no ordinary ninja can do). At least, that is my take on the subject.

[Delbi]

As far as I can tell, in terms of affinities, any ninja is capable of using any element, with emphasis on the words "capable" and "using." An elemental affinity has been stated as allowing a ninja to use one specific element with more ease and with more power. Kakashi, for example, has an affinity for Lightning. Therefore, he is capable of learning high-leveled Raiton techniques without too much difficulty, and executing them with maximum power.

However, this only pertains to his affinity itself. Nowhere in the manga has it said that an "anti-affinity" exists. That is to say, while a ninja may naturally be more proficient in one element, he is not incapable of using others. I think it's important to note that any given ninja has only one elemental affinity (with the exception of Kekkei Genkai users like Hashirama or Haku, who have two). Kakashi said that most Jounin can use two or more elements, not that they have affinities for two or more. There is a difference between having an affinity to an element and being able to use an element. Going back to Kakashi as an example, while his affinity is Raiton, he has been shown using fairly high-level Suiton and Douton techniques. Using multiple elements, I believe, has nothing to do with the ninja's affinity, but rather with the ninja's natural ability and work-ethic as well as the ambition to learn another composition.

For example, Asuma is known to have an affinity for Wind. As it is known that when Wind and Fire combine, they create a more powerful technique, Fire would seem to be a good element to couple with his affinity (this may not be the specific reason, but it is known that he uses both Wind and Fire). Therefore, since Asuma is a skilled ninja, he learned to compose his chakra into Fire, just as he learned to compose his chakra into Wind. However, since he does not have an affinity for Fire, it will take more time and effort to learn to utilize the element, and the resultant techniques will not be as powerful as his Wind techniques. I believe that, going by this, any ninja can train to use all five elements with enough time and practice. However, all secondary elements will indisputably be weaker than the affinity of the user. This is what makes Pein and Kakuzu special- not that they can use all five elements, but that they have affinities to all five elements (and therefore use high-powered techniques of all elements, which no ordinary ninja can do). At least, that is my take on the subject.

I agree with everything you have said 100%.

If we remeber when Kakashi was talking about the chakra paper that tells you what element you have, Kakashi held the paper and it crinked because he had the lightning element. If he had other affinities the paper would of reacted in other ways as well probably.

I think having an affinity for an element allows you to "manipulate' the element like Sasuke does with his Lightning jutsu. Sasuke is very capable with fire jutsu as well, but we don't see him using shape manipulation with his fire jutsu.

[Shishi-Inu]

Sasuke does use shape manipulation with his fire jutsus.

Here's a specific example: Gouryuuka no Jutsu - Great Dragon Fire Technique

He transforms the fire to look like dragon heads.

But if you think about it every fire technique he uses has shape manipulation. Otherwise the fire would just be a random spray of flames. Instead of a giant sphere or multiple small balls of fire.

I think it's safe to say that every ninjutsu uses shape manipulation but not every ninjutsu uses nature manipulation.

[brian.ca]

It's not stated in Sleepyfans translation but HBK & Cnet both note Shima's technique HERE (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/432/13/) as being "Senpou - Fuuton Sunabokori" so you should be able to put her down as a wind user