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Alterno
November 17, 2008, 02:29 PM
Re-posting since a moderator edited the first topic.

First at all I respect those of you that like this manga very much. But @ my eyes this manga failed to be an encouraging self-development manga. I mean this kid Ryoma never lose an important game, I was actually looking for information about any defeat, but he never lost. For me the worst shounen character ever created for a sport manga.

I do like others characters like momo for example, but I believe that ryoma's character as main character, as the way it was designed, hopefully we wont get to see another character like this or story where the barriers for the main character are so little or none.

These kind of manga should server as inspartion for those who are working hard to become better at stports, not otherwise. Is like the author tried to make the point of Natural talent > Hardworking.

:(


@ koenosak...

With all respect editing post that could show an opinion whether it be criticism of any kind is a shame, and very disrespectful. The next time you consider cristicism being negative ask yourself if it is offensive before doing such thing.

ssjohn
November 18, 2008, 01:44 PM
See i disagree,

I don't think POT is the most 'realistic' sports title out there (I mean Ryoma was going all Super Sayain and such), Ryoma did need to lose, but there are people who play a sport and never lose so Ryoma is just one of those characters.

And Ryoma did have to really work for winning, yea he didn't have to travel across Las Vegas on foot like Sena from Eyeshield or do some other training but Ryoma did train.

Also Ryoma lived in the shadow of his father, so he always pushed himself so he would look better in his fathers eyes.

The manga was a good read and is something i look forward to purchasing someday along with the sequel that will be starting up soon.

Succubus
November 18, 2008, 02:14 PM
obviously Ryoma is hax0r

I dont like PoT, its pretty boring and shoujoish...

oh hell yea I agree what u said, alterno

patedecarne
November 18, 2008, 02:34 PM
I know what are you mean, Alterno, and I agree with your opinion;

Granted, PoT has many charismatic characters, but unfortunately, Ryouma doesn't make it for a good protagonist;

The main problem I see on Ryouma is that he's too arrogant, I don't know if some of you share from the same opinion, but IMO Ryouma think of himself as a superior being when compared with the others.

And when I talk about superiority, I'm not talking about his skills, I'm talking about his human side: His perception for reality is totally distorted, as if he only needs himself on his life, his selfishness is too high, and even sometimes I think of Ryouma as a person who doesn't care about anyone on his life.

With these reasons, I think he lacks the charisma needed for a protagonist, again, sometimes Ryouma is just like a Robot, a Cyborg, where he's programmed to do just one thing: play tennis.


and just to remember, this is just my point of view ^_^

predsfan
November 19, 2008, 04:50 AM
Are you under the assumption that PoT was supposed to be an encouraging, self-development manga? I never got that impression from it, and that is one of the things I liked about it. I've read many sports (if not all of the ones that I read) where the main character doesn't start out as the best and I liked the change of pace that PoT had. Ryoma was already one of the best players (I'd say top ten when the manga started) when the story started and that already made it different than most sports manga out there.

I also agree with ssjohn on all of his points. We never really saw Ryoma, or any other player for that matter, do any hardcore training like we might see in other manga, but that doesn't necessarily mean he didn't work hard. It was stated at one point that tennis didn't come naturally for him, but was implanted by training exercises his Pro father had him doing since he could walk. So he would naturally have an advantage over most other players as he has been playing tennis since he could walk and he consistently was playing a player much better than anyone his age (his father).

Anyways, that's just my opinion on it. I could certainly see how people wouldn't take to this manga or Ryoma. If I could compare it to anything, I would say it is almost like what Naruto would be if Sasuke was the main character.

Maxy Barnard
November 19, 2008, 03:51 PM
ryoma lost once to tezuka. it's just not.... really shown... and he loses a lot to his father of course

and the cool overpowered character is a staple of shonen manga....... so.... yeah, counter argument... short cause i'm lazy but i'm pretty right

Digital_Eon
November 20, 2008, 12:02 AM
There's no way you can say Prince of Tennis was a failure as a manga, sports or not - it was immensely successful.

In terms of being a good sports manga? I disagree. No, we didn't see Ryoma work hard, and he was already good when he started (because he's been playing tennis since he was little), but, like the title promised, the manga was all about tennis. In fact, it was only
about tennis. There's really nothing shown about the characters outside their tennis playing (and the occasional break for a competition); there's no romance or gratuitous comedy scenes that aren't about competition. There's nothing but tennis matches and more tennis matches, plus the occasional beach volleyball or food-eating match.

And for that, I'd say it's a success... because it's a manga about sports first and foremost, and that's very, very clear. Sure, the plot was pretty much "win all the matches", but at the same time it was very addictive... fast-paced and surprisingly unpredictable (oh sure, you knew Seigaku was going to win all its matches, but you didn't know who was going to win what - because it didn't always come down to the last guy). But even without those little things, it certainly does not fail as a sports manga.

Honestly, does every sports manga need to be about weak guys working their way up and becoming strong rather than... well, what we saw in Prince of Tennis? I've found that way too many series are about the underdog with some incredible talent who suddenly becomes awesome with some practice that never happened before the series began for whatever reason. Ryoma, regardless of his flaws as a protagonist (although he, like everyone else, was just a shallow character created for the purpose of showing awesome tennis matches, so it feels to me), was a refreshing change: someone who's good at what he does through both natural skill and a ridiculous amount of practice since long before the manga started. Sure, he's not someone you'd want to emulate because most kids can't - but for the story, you couldn't have anyone else. Er, the tennis matches, I mean - what story?!

siegfried
November 23, 2008, 06:01 AM
Do you call this sport?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLYjEOD6AsA

it is not a sport manga (this thing might be called sport in an alternate universe maybe but not in the universe we live) so it cant be failure as a sport manga.

ruggia
November 23, 2008, 06:56 AM
i'm so happy to see that there is someone who is thinking the same thing as me.

yes Prince of Tennis completely fails as a shounen sports manga, and it lacks pretty much most of the elements that make up a good shounen sports manga.

first, the style of the manga is more close to shojo then shounen (including the name). its more about bi-shounens playing tennis than about friendship or dreams, which are the two main elements of shounen manga. the story starts more like a shoujo manga, and the art style and character design is closer to shoujo than shounen. the only element that makes this manga "shounen" is just the fact that they are playing tennis.

second, as i said before, the manga lacks development of friendship or team work. Momoshiro seemed to take the role of the main char's best friend, but he is pretty much nobody towards the end. there are some friendship and trust displayed between supporting characters, but ryouma is pretty much independent, the friendship and trust displayed in Prince of Tennis feels abit different from other shounen mangas like ES21, or Slam Dunk..... (i won't go far as to say its Yaoi, but its along that line)...

also the tennis skills in later chapters are pretty ridiculous, and i believe its going way too far.... i mean. ryouma is pretty much going super saiyan at the last chapter, and do u seriously think those are skills of middle schoolers? the spectators and the judge can't even see the player's movement.... if that's how they play in middle school, what tennis like in the pros? the only thing normal people will be able to see is two people staring at each other while there is a tennis ball moving back and forth at 200 miles per hour. i think went way too far, and i can't believe its making a sequel.... i don't want to see a group of super saiyans playing tennis....

i guess u can say its "original" but not really...

Maxy Barnard
November 23, 2008, 07:15 AM
i'm so happy to see that there is someone who is thinking the same thing as me.

yes Prince of Tennis completely fails as a shounen sports manga, and it lacks pretty much most of the elements that make up a good shounen sports manga.

first, the style of the manga is more close to shojo then shounen (including the name). its more about bi-shounens playing tennis than about friendship or dreams, which are the two main elements of shounen manga. the story starts more like a shoujo manga, and the art style and character design is closer to shoujo than shounen. the only element that makes this manga "shounen" is just the fact that they are playing tennis.

second, as i said before, the manga lacks development of friendship or team work. Momoshiro seemed to take the role of the main char's best friend, but he is pretty much nobody towards the end. there are some friendship and trust displayed between supporting characters, but ryouma is pretty much independent, the friendship and trust displayed in Prince of Tennis feels abit different from other shounen mangas like ES21, or Slam Dunk..... (i won't go far as to say its Yaoi, but its along that line)...

also the tennis skills in later chapters are pretty ridiculous, and i believe its going way too far.... i mean. ryouma is pretty much going super saiyan at the last chapter, and do u seriously think those are skills of middle schoolers? the spectators and the judge can't even see the player's movement.... if that's how they play in middle school, what tennis like in the pros? the only thing normal people will be able to see is two people staring at each other while there is a tennis ball moving back and forth at 200 miles per hour. i think went way too far, and i can't believe its making a sequel.... i don't want to see a group of super saiyans playing tennis....

i guess u can say its "original" but not really...

then don't read it. but sit back and think to yourself that it DOES promote values like teamwork and friendship, after all, they're a TEAM heading to the nationals. the yaoi stuff is admittedly something that helped it sell, but hey everyone needs a gimmick.

and now to piss on your parade.

CAPTAIN TSUBASA

this series is not only the most influential sports series of all time, but features more gravity defying super antics than pretty much ANYTHING out there.

and is that a failure as a sports manga? hell no

Digital_Eon
November 24, 2008, 11:43 AM
I fail to see this yaoi stuff everyone's talking about. Yes, there was a different kind of friendship than usually seen in shounen series - teamwork. The characters were brought together by their love of tennis, and experience and skill relating to tennis - and when you meet and befriend someone under those circumstances, the relationship will be very different from the usual classmate friendship. You've shared a very important part of yourself with these people.

And since when are friendship and dreams important elements of shounen manga? What defines a shounen manga is the magazine it's in - not what's in the story. And friendship and dreams DID play a role in Prince of Tennis - just in a more realistic (ie: UNDERSTATED) way than the overt speech-spouting crap we get in many shounen sports series.

Prince of Tennis was most definitely not a shoujo series. Girls would read it for the guys, but not for much else - there was zero romance, a main factor in drawing in fangirls. Obviously, the little boys reading Jump liked it for some reason - the epic sports, presumably - hence its success as a SHOUNEN series.

Maxy Barnard
November 24, 2008, 12:57 PM
it has a massive fujoshi or whatever fanbase, that's what's being got at here

Digital_Eon
November 25, 2008, 12:59 AM
They see anything involving male-male interaction as being gay. By that standard, Naruto is the girliest manga ever to exist and pretty much any other series enjoying at least moderate popularity exists for girls. Prince of Tennis had a mostly male cast because it was a sports manga... and there were no female characters thrown in for fanservice anywhere.

Assymilum
November 25, 2008, 02:39 AM
I agree with you, Alterno. The moves are cheesy, the art isn't really good, and all they do is just selling bishies to fans. I think that it's more attractive to female readers rather than male ones.

Then, the manga also lacks the development of teamwork and friendship. It seems that the only thing developing is this Ryoma-has-never-been-defeated record. (He's just too good to be true.) Ryoma. Always Echizen Ryoma. Always The Undefeatable Prodigy. Ugh, it makes me want to puke. I mean, he's like Perfect. With no flaws whatsoever. BooOorIng.

And mixing tennis with... uh, whatever you call that, is just isn't right. Come on... Like, for example, the episode with the bear. Do they HAVE to hit the guy with rackets? They could've just kicked/punched him -- it's way easier. Also look at the PoT movie, the one with Ryoma's brother? Yeah. It's like... unreal. I mean, they played tennis until the end in the storm? And they survived because they played tennis? That's absurd.

Maxy Barnard
November 25, 2008, 05:44 AM
just to get a fix on this, what are people getting at? I mean there are those who see PoT as a failure as a sports manga....

so what isn't by this standard? clarity helps points ya see.

Digital_Eon
November 25, 2008, 10:41 AM
I need to ask this: Since when do all sports manga require the themes of personal development, friendship, and goal-setting (Prince of Tennis DEFINITELY had teamwork, unless you skipped out on reading the manga and are writing from your assumptions)? Last time I checked, what made a manga a sports manga was that the emphasis was on a sport - playing the sport, tournaments, stuff like that. NOT some other often-related-but-not-necessary theme.

Prince of Tennis is about tennis. It is solely about tennis. Therefore, how is it a failure as a sports manga? It does exactly what it needs to in order to be considered as a sports manga: be about a sport.

Onomatopoeia
November 28, 2008, 09:32 PM
My hate thread on My Immortal was deleted,but not this, the mods hate me:(

As for this thread I would like to point out some things, first and foremost I've noticed some occurences of a popularity fallacy in that because it's succesful it must be good, this is of course a bit of a joke to use as backup. I don't really need to point out why because most can figure it out for themselves.

Now then why it failed as a sport manga...well first and foremost I should probably mention that Friendship and all of that is unbelievably important to Sports. Those that think that Friendship and Development is unimportant to a Sports Manga have obviously never been part of a real Sports Team to believe that(which is foolhardy at best). Friendship is very important to my team(admitedly it's a Soccer team but I think it's still true for tennis).

Next Prince of Tennis suffered from an extremely bad "Gary Stu" or a guy who's perfect in every way and is loved by everyone(Think Sasuke), this sort of person attracts the fangirls like a Pedophile to a Girls Youth Cheerleading cheeroff. In short they become obsesed, and combined with PoT's obvious Bishounen's and Flashiness a huge fanbase is created.

Now then the question comes up...does this make a good Manga? The answer is a no, all characters are expected to have character developments(except in rare cases such as Luffy but even then he develops a lot and his character is far to well made to change),pitfalls, problems etc. In a sports Manga this can of course be equalized to one simple thing, losing and winning. The key thing is that in a Sports Manga the main character must always lose sooner or later to get better this will then lead to development. Echizen on the other hand...he never truly loses, in fact he wins nearly everything and is deemed to be this perfect sort of guy, above everyone else.

This is a terrible sort of character to make, while a huge fanbase will be created the character will be bland at best. And if a main character is uninteresting and unimportant the Manga itself is destined to be mediocre at best. Something which Kishimoto has only just began realize after two years of Sasuke.

Next lets move on to actual flashiness...HAHA you honestly thought I was going to be seirous about this part? PoT expects us to be impressed by thirty flashes one chapter? PoT goes around running with SSJ's all over the place, instead of that they could perhaps consider imparting more story and character details and matches that would interest me more but honestly Flashes and SSJ stuff aren't going to keep many people interested for an entire manga.

Powerlevels...lol. Just lol. The strongest of the series are jokes. A lot of this has to do with Echizen but still.

Digital_Eon
November 29, 2008, 02:07 AM
As for this thread I would like to point out some things, first and foremost I've noticed some occurences of a popularity fallacy in that because it's succesful it must be good, this is of course a bit of a joke to use as backup.

Undoubtedly true - being popular does not make a manga good. It does, however, make it not a failure - what this thread is about.


Now then why it failed as a sport manga...well first and foremost I should probably mention that Friendship and all of that is unbelievably important to Sports. Those that think that Friendship and Development is unimportant to a Sports Manga have obviously never been part of a real Sports Team to believe that(which is foolhardy at best). Friendship is very important to my team(admitedly it's a Soccer team but I think it's still true for tennis).

They're important, and Prince of Tennis had them. PoT just did not have them in the suffocating amounts most sports manga do. To say there was no friendship/teamwork or development in PoT is untrue, because it's pretty obvious in all the "let's train together" or "let's play doubles together" stuff.


Next Prince of Tennis suffered from an extremely bad "Gary Stu" or a guy who's perfect in every way and is loved by everyone(Think Sasuke), this sort of person attracts the fangirls like a Pedophile to a Girls Youth Cheerleading cheeroff. In short they become obsesed, and combined with PoT's obvious Bishounen's and Flashiness a huge fanbase is created.

Can't deny this. To judge a manga by its fanbase, however, is ignorant. Fans are stupid no matter what series they love. ...Yes, though, Ryoma was something of a Gary Stu.

And, miracle of miracles, he also wasn't the only character in PoT... by far.


Now then the question comes up...does this make a good Manga? The answer is a no, all characters are expected to have character developments(except in rare cases such as Luffy but even then he develops a lot and his character is far to well made to change),

...Did you just contradict yourself here? Sorry. I'm a bit confused.


pitfalls, problems etc. In a sports Manga this can of course be equalized to one simple thing, losing and winning. The key thing is that in a Sports Manga the main character must always lose sooner or later to get better this will then lead to development. Echizen on the other hand...he never truly loses, in fact he wins nearly everything and is deemed to be this perfect sort of guy, above everyone else.

No, see, the key thing in a sports manga is the sports - and the hero winning at the end. Echizen never lost (which is not generally a good thing for a good plot), but he did develop. He didn't just sit around on his behind except when playing; he practised and got better. Yes, he was still overpowered. But that's not what defines a sports manga: the sports do.


This is a terrible sort of character to make, while a huge fanbase will be created the character will be bland at best. And if a main character is uninteresting and unimportant the Manga itself is destined to be mediocre at best. Something which Kishimoto has only just began realize after two years of Sasuke.

Ryoma was very bland. Character development was not exactly a goal of PoT, it seems; everything was about tennis and more tennis. If you were looking for something full of heartwarming realisations and plot, this was not the manga for you - but that doesn't mean it didn't appeal to readers who wanted nothing but action. It's not like PoT pretended to be the former and then disappointed millions of readers by failing at it.


Next lets move on to actual flashiness...HAHA you honestly thought I was going to be seirous about this part? PoT expects us to be impressed by thirty flashes one chapter? PoT goes around running with SSJ's all over the place, instead of that they could perhaps consider imparting more story and character details and matches that would interest me more but honestly Flashes and SSJ stuff aren't going to keep many people interested for an entire manga.

It kept everyone who read until the end interested. As I said above: not everyone wants character development! Do people who watch real sports games want their favourite players to develop and grow as characters? Erm... no, they want them to win and put on a wonderful show in doing so. Prince of Tennis was not your kind of manga. It nevertheless appealed to many others. Deal with it.


Powerlevels...lol. Just lol. The strongest of the series are jokes. A lot of this has to do with Echizen but still.

OVER 9000 - sorry, I got a bit distracted there what with almost every shounen series in existence being that way.

The question of this thread is not "Is Prince of Tennis a good manga?". It is "did Prince of Tennis fail as a sports manga?" - and the answer to that, both with regards to being a manga about sports and a manga in general, is no. Prince of Tennis was about sports. Prince of Tennis was immensely successful and beloved by many. Therefore, it did not fail - regardless of what you think about how good it is, or how good it really may be.

And geez, people need to stop thinking that all stories need obvious character development to be good. Character development does not happen by long arcs where someone comes to a realisation at the end and changes themselves, guys. It happens slowly and subtlely. And even if it doesn't happen, that doesn't mean something can't be entertaining - in fact, that's just what lots of people want to read about or watch. As long as the manga doesn't end up that way because it tried and failed to be a developmental series, then what's wrong with it? The mangaka succeeded in doing what he wanted to do. End of story.

Maxy Barnard
November 29, 2008, 07:36 AM
i just love that no-one's really indicated what makes a successful sports manga. because on some level all sports mangas in the shonen clique manage to carry these sorta traits.

ssjohn
November 29, 2008, 10:18 AM
What makes a successful sports manga --- lasting longer then Dogashi , Hand's , p2 ((though i would consider it semi successful, in comparison at least)), etc

I think what this topic has proved is that yea POT is a successful manga, but being 'good' is a matter of personal preference.

Tensai_Sakuragi
November 29, 2008, 06:16 PM
To be honest, there was a time - a bright, shining, distant time - in which I was a PoT fan.
The manga starts off really good for any sports manga fan.
Good characters. Good matches. Ryoma is cheeky and shit, but you can deal with it(and he can be pretty cool when he helps people out).

Heck, up to chapter 150, you can call it a great series.
When people reach chapter 190, it becomes fucking ridiculous with the "Muga no Kyouichi"/Nen/Chakra/Ki power-up.
BUT YOU CAN STILL KINDA SURVIVE READING IT.

And then, after the Nationals begin...it becomes so painful. :oh Really.
The manga goes downhill in such a disgusting, annoying fashion, it´s almost unbereable.
People using Nen/Chakra/Haki everywhere you look.
Superpowers. People being sent all the way to the audience seats BY BEING KNOCKED WITH A FUCKING TENNIS BALL.

And what´s worse, NOBODY RUNS SCREAMING IN DESPERATION.
I mean, there you have all these middle schoolers GLOWING WITH PRETTY COLORFUL SPIRITUAL LIGHTS while STEALING OTHER PEOPLE SENSORIAL COGNITIVE CAPACITIES and SENDING OTHER PEOPLE FLYING AROUND...and nobody thinks there´s something wrong with it. RIDICULOUS. :notrust

In its first few chapters, PoT´s world was equal to our own. Sure, the players already had some "special moves", but those were just mangaish versions of tennis moves. Eyeshield 21 has those too. But then, all of a sudden, it just starts to VOMIT ON THE BOUNDARIES OF REALITY. Tsc.

Man, if Konomi wanted to write a supernatural-fighting-shonen manga, HE SHOULD HAVE DONE THAT INSTEAD.
Don´t give me that "spiritual fights with a tennis roupage" shit. :p

The only reason I read the series until the end was my (STRONG) attachment to the characters. And even then, it was just painful to watch Konomi transform them in mutant freaks, instead of middle schoolers. I mean, just look at last match the Kaidou/Inui pair had in the series.

WHAT THE FUCK WAS THAT SHIT? :blink


just to get a fix on this, what are people getting at? I mean there are those who see PoT as a failure as a sports manga....

so what isn't by this standard? clarity helps points ya see.

Slam Dunk. Touch. H2. Rookies. Whistle. Eyeshield 21. Hajime no Ippo.
Real. Ahiru no Sora. Ookiku Furikabutte.

HECK, pretty much any good sports series in which they play SPORTS, rather than some bizarre magical-ninja-spiritual-fight in which there´s a ball involved.



No, see, the key thing in a sports manga is the sports - and the hero winning at the end.

Nope, not at all. If you really think any good sports manga has to end with a victory(or even worse, not a single loss in the entire series :p), perhaps you haven´t read many good titles.


Ryoma was very bland. Character development was not exactly a goal of PoT, it seems; everything was about tennis and more tennis. If you were looking for something full of heartwarming realisations and plot, this was not the manga for you - but that doesn't mean it didn't appeal to readers who wanted nothing but action. It's not like PoT pretended to be the former and then disappointed millions of readers by failing at it.


That´s not really an excuse. Slam Dunk had a lot of non-stop basketball, and it was still full of character development. It was action-packed as hell, and the development was still there.
How´s that possible? THE MANGAKA WAS COMPETENT.
Really, it´s that simple. No need to blame it on the tennis matches. Konomi is just not good enough of a mangaka to keep things in balance.

He´s an excelent marketeer, though. That I can see.
I mean, come on...creating a franchise full of bishies so that the fangirls will keep it alive no matter how much the quality of the manga drops? Pure genious. :p


It kept everyone who read until the end interested.

Uh...no? :oh
Sorry, but I know that quite a LOT of people kept reading it just for the sake of knowing how it would end(and with that shitty ending, it wasn´t even worth it :blink). Others kept reading because they liked the characters, even if they were being abused by Konomi(I´m one of those :().
In my country, Brazil, the PoT fanbase pretty much lost hope on the series after the Nationals began.


OVER 9000 - sorry, I got a bit distracted there what with almost every shounen series in existence being that way.

Please don´t give me that. That excuse is just too weak.
Not all shonen sports series need fuckin´ powerlevels, or chakra/spiritual shit. By saying that, you´re being unfair to all the mangaka that WORK THEIR ASSES OFF to create good, epic games using only real sports moves, moves we can see in real life.

Let´s face it. Konomi just didn´t feel like he was capable of creating interesting matches for the Nationals without using the ridiculous "spiritual energy power-up" plot-device. :notrust


Prince of Tennis was immensely successful and beloved by many. Therefore, it did not fail - regardless of what you think about how good it is, or how good it really may be.

That´s true. Its popularity can´t be denied. It´s a lucrative, sucessfull franchise. So yeah, it´s not a failure as a manga.

But as a sports manga title? PFF.
Do you really think it was THE TENNIS that kept the franchise alive?
Really, really?

Six words for ya: MUSICALS.WITH.PRETTY.ACTORS. FOR. FANGIRLS.

:eyeroll The tickets for the new musicals based on "King of the Afterschool" are ALREADY ON SALE. Tss.

Digital_Eon
November 29, 2008, 06:58 PM
Nope, not at all. If you really think any good sports manga has to end with a victory(or even worse, not a single loss in the entire series :p), perhaps you haven´t read many good titles.

Wow, there are manga out there where the hero/hero's team don't win at the end?! That's incredible! All right, what I said was an exaggeration, I admit - the key aspect of a sports manga is... the sports.



That´s not really an excuse. Slam Dunk had a lot of non-stop basketball, and it was still full of character development. It was action-packed as hell, and the development was still there.
How´s that possible? THE MANGAKA WAS COMPETENT.
Really, it´s that simple. No need to blame it on the tennis matches. Konomi is just not good enough of a mangaka to keep things in balance.

Perhaps, or perhaps he didn't try. I don't know what the reason is. (Slam Dunk is immensely successful, though, even more so than PoT, so... that could be the reason.) But I still think that if the mangaka's strength was not that balance, it's still a good sign that he picked one over the other instead of failing to recognize that problem and writing crappy development.

Or maybe he did try and fail... and it just wasn't that obvious. Anyway.

He´s an excelent marketeer, though. That I can see.
I mean, come on...creating a franchise full of bishies so that the fangirls will keep it alive no matter how much the quality of the manga drops? Pure genious. :p



Uh...no? :oh
Sorry, but I know that quite a LOT of people kept reading it just for the sake of knowing how it would end(and with that shitty ending, it wasn´t even worth it :blink). Others kept reading because they liked the characters, even if they were being abused by Konomi(I´m one of those :().

Those people were still interested in the series enough to care about the ending or the characters! =P



Please don´t give me that. That excuse is just too weak.
Not all shonen sports series need fuckin´ powerlevels, or chakra/spiritual shit. By saying that, you´re being unfair to all the mangaka that WORK THEIR ASSES OFF to create good, epic games using only real sports moves, moves we can see in real life.

Let´s face it. Konomi just didn´t feel like he was capable of creating interesting matches for the Nationals without using the ridiculous "spiritual energy power-up" plot-device. :notrust

No, those mangaka write for different audiences. There's the group that likes sports, and so are happy to read realistic sports series with real moves and realistic characters... and there's the group of readers who want epic moves and fantasy stuff. There's probably some overlap with sports manga fans (who read both), but generally, those are very different audiences.

And it's not a weak excuse. Would Prince of Tennis have been as popular if it didn't have those insane moves? Just look at what WSJ readers like to read... probably not. Any series that DON'T rely on such power-ups are exceptions, not the norm. I'm not going to blame a mangaka for doing something shitty if it's what keeps a series alive and making money - I may not be happy with it, but I can't say I wouldn't do the same in that situation. That's what's paying the bills,a fter all.




That´s true. Its popularity can´t be denied. It´s a lucrative, sucessfull franchise. So yeah, it´s not a failure as a manga.

But as a sports manga title? PFF.
Do you really think it was THE TENNIS that kept the franchise alive?
Really, really?

The tennis was an aspect of PoT; it wouldn't be the same without it. I'd say that yes, the tennis did help to keep PoT alive, even if it wasn't the main/only thing. And the series was also undeniably about tennis, no matter how strange some of the moves were.

jpnraw
November 29, 2008, 07:55 PM
I wouldn't say it fails...but it certainly doesn't come anywhere near the best. In the beginning, the "underdog" strong character captured my attention, but after a while it gets old. I still had a fun time reading it when I was bored, but it didn't feel serious, if you catch my drift. If you ask me, it was basically DBZ mixed in with tennis o_O, I felt like I was watching epic battles instead of tennis sometimes.

ssjohn
November 29, 2008, 08:18 PM
And it's not a weak excuse. Would Prince of Tennis have been as popular if it didn't have those insane moves? Just look at what WSJ readers like to read... probably not. Any series that DON'T rely on such power-ups are exceptions, not the norm. I'm not going to blame a mangaka for doing something shitty if it's what keeps a series alive and making money - I may not be happy with it, but I can't say I wouldn't do the same in that situation. That's what's paying the bills,a fter all.

See i do have to slightly disagree, yea alot of the powerups and moves were awesome and interesting, but I do think the mangaka went over to Toriyama's house and got drunk or something and he made a bet that his characters can power up and be stronger then Toriyama's and Toriyama said "Prove it" so we had Ryoma flying threw the sky with the super long hair and the......maybe i am just blending manga's now lol.

I do think the manga would have been just as big with out 'some' of the power ups, yea the super moves were nice and 'wsj' readers love to have catch phrases to talk about weither it be Ka-me-ha-me-ah, Kage Bushin No Justu, Gum gum no rocket, or Ryoma's super move the readers eat that stuff up.

But i do think the 'power up' element of the story was unneeded and its going to be interesting to see how he handles it in POT2 or 'The real POT' or whatever its going to be called.

I do think people read the manga just for the Tennis, and then it was for the character development and being attached to these people.

I started reading POT because of the Tennis and i will pick up POT2 when it starts.

When you are going to talk about 'successful' sports tiltes the ones that come to mind for me at least are Captain Tsubasa, Hajime no (NEVER ENDING) Ippo, Prince of tennis, and a few others.

Maxy Barnard
November 29, 2008, 08:50 PM
When you are going to talk about 'successful' sports tiltes the ones that come to mind for me at least are Captain Tsubasa, Hajime no (NEVER ENDING) Ippo, Prince of tennis, and a few others.


Tsubasa is the epitome of the superpowered main character with over the top moves....... so most people's statements again PoT are.... moot, for Tsubasa again is one of the most successful and decent sports manga about.

Ippo........ i've never read myself, but i hear good thigns

ssjohn
November 29, 2008, 10:55 PM
I know this is a tad off topic but whatever.

Tsubasa's over the top moves are well over the top, but its really the chapter lengths that make reading it a pain at least for me lol, also i love soccer but i just don't think tsubasa is 'that great' but i dont deny its successful and one of the biggest sports series.

Hajime no ippo i am like 200-300 chapters in, its good but just so dang long lol.

Digital_Eon
November 29, 2008, 11:10 PM
I do think the manga would have been just as big with out 'some' of the power ups, yea the super moves were nice and 'wsj' readers love to have catch phrases to talk about weither it be Ka-me-ha-me-ah, Kage Bushin No Justu, Gum gum no rocket, or Ryoma's super move the readers eat that stuff up.

But i do think the 'power up' element of the story was unneeded and its going to be interesting to see how he handles it in POT2 or 'The real POT' or whatever its going to be called.

...Yeah, can't deny that some of those power-ups were just unnecessary - or necessary only because of the length of the plot. Some of them were just a bit over-the-top (and by that I mean a lot). Those gate things? ...Yeah. And how did that infamous Twist Serve become obsolete so quickly? It feels like the mangaka didn't plan for PoT to be as long and successful as it was... and while that seems sensible considering the state of WSJ these days, it does make things awkward when a series actually does do well (and not right away as with Toriko).

Yet power-ups - or new moves/techniques, rather - would still be needed as new antagonists pop up. That's just how these series work.

Damnit, PoT2 was not needed. Not needed at all. >_<

Gecko Moria
November 30, 2008, 10:10 PM
I actually quite like PoT even if it is a bit unrealistic. It has a wide variety of very different characters and I like tennis so...

Tensai_Sakuragi
December 01, 2008, 11:35 AM
Wow, there are manga out there where the hero/hero's team don't win at the end?! That's incredible!

Ain´t it? :p
The only reason keeping me from listing some titles is that it would spoil their endings. But I´m sure you´ll find them someday, if you keep reading sports manga. ;)


Perhaps, or perhaps he didn't try. I don't know what the reason is. (Slam Dunk is immensely successful, though, even more so than PoT, so... that could be the reason.) But I still think that if the mangaka's strength was not that balance, it's still a good sign that he picked one over the other instead of failing to recognize that problem and writing crappy development.

Or maybe he did try and fail... and it just wasn't that obvious. Anyway.

In my personal opinion, he did try to put in some development.
We have Inui learning to be wilder and not to depend so much in his data.
Fuji starting to play with PASSION in his match against Shiraishi and so on.

He just didn´t know how to do it the right way, and SURELY didn´t try often enough. :blink


Those people were still interested in the series enough to care about the ending or the characters! =P

Nice try. :p
But I don´t really see how you can call people that complained fiercily after the end of every new chapter "interested".
Masochists, maybe(that may include me). :p But not "interested", for sure.



No, those mangaka write for different audiences. There's the group that likes sports, and so are happy to read realistic sports series with real moves and realistic characters... and there's the group of readers who want epic moves and fantasy stuff. There's probably some overlap with sports manga fans (who read both), but generally, those are very different audiences.

It´s not like "super sports manga" is a strong genre right now, you know. :blink It was BIG in the 80s, but right now, you pretty much only have Captain Tsubasa(:eyeroll surviving on nostalgic fans alone) and PoT(surviving on fangirls alone :p).
Rather, you have extremely realistic series being awarded and all. See Ookiku Furikabutte and Real, for instance. ;)



And it's not a weak excuse. Would Prince of Tennis have been as popular if it didn't have those insane moves?

WHY NOT? :blink
It DIDN´T have insane moves until up to chapter 190. Really.
AND THE TENNIS MATCHES WERE MUCH BETTER AT THAT POINT. :oh

Really...the first Hyotei match and the first Rikkai Dai match were pretty much the BEST arcs in the series(even with Ryoma´s ridiculous Muga no Kyouchi in the Rikkai arc).

Man, the manga should SO have ended after the Kantou Tournament. :darn


Just look at what WSJ readers like to read... probably not. Any series that DON'T rely on such power-ups are exceptions, not the norm.

:blink I really don´t see your point.
Slam Dunk and Rookies were pretty sucessful on this same Weekly Shonen Jump, you know.
Heck, even if you had a ghost as a main character in Hikaru no Go, ALL the Go matches on it were realistic.
And heeey, what was the series that was always beating the crap out of PoT in the WSJ popularity Tocs?

Eyeshield 21. Flashy moves, but NO pretty lights/spiritual/insane/power-up moves AT ALL. Just mangaish versions of real life moves.

So yeah, I don´t really see how the hell am I listing "exceptions". :blink


I'm not going to blame a mangaka for doing something shitty if it's what keeps a series alive and making money - I may not be happy with it, but I can't say I wouldn't do the same in that situation. That's what's paying the bills, after all.

That´s a valid point. :p
I think you´re being too nice with such mangaka, though. Yeah, they have to pay the bills and all, but the readers DON´T need to like it, ya know. :notrust


The tennis was an aspect of PoT; it wouldn't be the same without it. I'd say that yes, the tennis did help to keep PoT alive, even if it wasn't the main/only thing. And the series was also undeniably about tennis, no matter how strange some of the moves were.

Isn´t it strange enough that the sports are NOT the main thing keeping a sports manga series alive? :p
I could even conceide on this if the things keeping it alive were "the fantastic dialogues", "the incredible character development" or the "hilarious comedy scenes", but knowing that what kept it alive were the BEAUTIFUL BISHONEN CHARACTERS just makes me laugh. :amuse


I wouldn't say it fails...but it certainly doesn't come anywhere near the best. In the beginning, the "underdog" strong character captured my attention, but after a while it gets old. I still had a fun time reading it when I was bored, but it didn't feel serious, if you catch my drift. If you ask me, it was basically DBZ mixed in with tennis o_O, I felt like I was watching epic battles instead of tennis sometimes.

WORD. ;)


Tsubasa is the epitome of the superpowered main character with over the top moves....... so most people's statements again PoT are.... moot, for Tsubasa again is one of the most successful and decent sports manga about.

Using Tsubasa´s popularity as a constant "shield" against other people´s opinions isn´t much of a great point, ya know. :oh
You´re ignoring the fact that Tsubasa is a CLASSIC. It´s from the 80s, man. Different contexts, different publics. The "Super Sports Manga" genre was big at that time.
If it keeps getting new series and special chapters even today, that´s just because of its nostalgic/loyal fanbase all around the world. So yeah, undoubtely a sucessfull series, but does that make it a good series?

Whistle´s much better, in my opinion.


Damnit, PoT2 was not needed. Not needed at all. >_<

TOTALLY with ya on that, dude. :darn

eni
December 01, 2008, 12:45 PM
My hate thread on My Immortal was deleted,but not this, the mods hate me:(
Not at all and I have no clue how this thread could slip through.


First of all, this is a series related thread and if you want to talk about a certain series be it positive or negative, please use the respective series discussion thread.

The Prince of Tennis thread is here -> http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42061

I don't think it's so hard to understand that we have a one-thread-per-series rule at the demographic forums unless the series has a subforum of it's own and that applies for creating such threads in the Otaku Cafe (which is for general talk) as well. PoT has a single thread for a reason.


Secondly, when a moderator edits a posts there is no reason and no excuse to simply re-post or edit over the mod tags. That has nothing to do with free speech and expression one's opinion. You can always contact an admin in such cases to look over the issue - we're not always in the right.

But we have a job here and editing posts to e.g. remove bashing and insults (I have no clue what Koen edited, so I just give these examples) is part of this job. We already try to do this as little as possible. The alternative is to completely delete such posts which isn't necessary most of the times.

You can avoid it yourself by simply sticking to the rules. While we welcome every member with open arms and wish him much fun at MH, we also expect from everyone to acknowledge our rules and guidelines. Within those you can express yourself as much as you want but when you overstep the border there's no reason to complain about mod edits. Simple as that.



Last but not least, Onomatopoeia is fully right that we didn't allowed "This manga sucks"-threads for any series so far and that's the first I see about this thread when I read the title. Now, I also see that the discussion in the thread is quite moderate and more into the direction of how a quality sports manga should be. Therefor I won't delete the whole thing.

So, we do it like this now:
I'll close this thread for now and PM the threadstarter on how he wants this thread to develop. Either I merge it with the PoT discussion thread and it stays ontopic to the serie OR we rename into something like "What makes a good sports manga?" and keep it to a general sports manga discussion thread which would be fully ok here in the Otaku Theater on it's own.