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Fox666
December 02, 2008, 10:44 PM
This come from a discussion in MSN...

First of all would be the true power of Aizen, Gin and Kename. They have control over the Espada. Since Aizen said he would join the Menos because the only way to surprass a Shinigami power is became a hollow, and he experimented the Hollowmation in the Vizards, the thing came to our mind is they turn themselfes in Vizards. But, more than that, we know that is possible to being more than that:

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/bleach/en/images//d/de/2416930685_f8c596e872.jpg

Well, the important thing is:

A Shinigami that turn in a hollow (Vizards) became stronger
A Hollow that "became a human" (take of the mask) became stronger

In other words, the power came with the equilibrium.
A Vizard is 90% Shinigami and 10% Hollow, a Arrancar is 90% Hollow and 10% human. So what would be 50%/50%?

That is something Aizen would came up in mind to obtain "true" power.

drakend
December 03, 2008, 10:53 AM
I think the 50% and 50% hybrid is what is commonly referred to as "perfect hybrid". Such a thing is the main target of Aizen, of course, because it would be unbelievably powerful making shinigami captains and arrancar espada mere cannon fodder. The immense strength of such a being is given by multiple factors imho, but this doesn't change the fact that the stronger the original being is the stronger the resulting perfect hybrid is. The common way to measure power in Bleach is the amount of reiatsu: the more reiatsu someone has the more he's "strong". This doesn't mean someone with huge reiatsu can win evrey fight by default anyway: he can be still beaten by someone with less reiatsu but more skilled for example. This is the reason Ichigo is having such an hard time in all of his fights thus far: this is lucky too because it would be plain boring otherwise.
Leaving the details alone, let's return to "the more reiatsu one has the more stronger he is" concept: it's generally correct imho. The reiatsu can be developed in two "ways", depending on the form a soul takes: shinigami way or hollow way. Normally, once the soul becomes shinigami it cannot go back and the same applies if turns out to be hollow. After a way is taken there is a wall which separates the shinigami way and the hollow way: the Bleach plotline is all centered around this wall and, more specifically, around the ways to bypass this wall from creating small holes to destroing it completely. The hougyoku can be seen as a caterpillar, which is without fuel FOR NOW.
Partial destruction of this wall allows one's power to be incresed because it merges its own form of reiatsu with a form of his own reiatsu which is normally not accessible.
Anyway there is still a predominant form: shinigami for Vaizards and hollow for Arrancars. These beings are commonly knows as "imperfect hybrids" or, if you prefer, middle-steps for reaching the so called perfect hybrid. This is essential for mantaining their original personality and/or sanity: it's the king-horse metaphor Shirosaki used during his inner fight with Ichigo.
A being who hasn't this wall is free to merge the two form of reiatsu freely: this merging process should be so tight that a new form is born. This new form of reiatsu outclasses evrey other form of reiatsu we know so far, if the difference isn't too different between the perfect hybrid and his enemies.
I mean if Hanatarou becomes the perfect hybrid he should be able to defeat vice-captains, but captains should be able to defeat him. If Aizen becomes the perfect hybrid than god save us... :D

Sorry for the long post, but this thread gave me the occasion to write my opinion on this matter, opinion which I formed and evolved gradually through the reading of Bleach manga until today.

Regarding the specific case of Ichigo I think he, unlike the other Vaizards, doesn't have a mere hole in the wall, but it has been destroyed totally. Ichigo being the king is only an temporary state of things: Ichigo will NEVER be able to tame Shirosaki for good. I think a perfect hybrid doesn't have a king and a horse, but has two kings which will support each other developing new techniques and such. This is hard to believe considering Shirosaki's personality, but I think he will need to realize he cannot dominate Ichigo totally and the opposite so they're better to start working together for real otherwise they will be killed in the future.
Regarding Aizen I don't think there are particular problems because, unlike Ichigo, the shinigami part of him is at least as much evil as the hollow one! :D

kkck
December 03, 2008, 01:50 PM
That theory works only under the assumption that a vizard is not a perfect hybrid though. As far as it has been revealed a vizard can do everything a hollow can do, so there is little reason to believe that they arent perfect hybrids.
There are many reasons for which aizen could choose againts the procedure he used with hirako and the others such as not willing to risk fighting an inner hollow which sucks his power.

drakend
December 03, 2008, 06:24 PM
That theory works only under the assumption that a vizard is not a perfect hybrid though. As far as it has been revealed a vizard can do everything a hollow can do, so there is little reason to believe that they arent perfect hybrids.
There are many reasons for which aizen could choose againts the procedure he used with hirako and the others such as not willing to risk fighting an inner hollow which sucks his power.
Yeah of course I assume Vaizards and Arrancars aren't the "perfect hybrids". The manga doesn't clearly state that but their names clearly hint that imho... I mean the arrancar are incomplete hybrids for sure, while Vaizard means masked soldier. Nothing is told about their nature, but I don't think they're perfect hybrids otherwise Aizen wouldn't need the hougyoku. Regarding Aizen avoiding that process in order to not fight with his inner hollow: I think Aizen's hollow is less evil than his shinigami counterpart... :D

kkck
December 03, 2008, 09:17 PM
Yeah of course I assume Vaizards and Arrancars aren't the "perfect hybrids". The manga doesn't clearly state that but their names clearly hint that imho... I mean the arrancar are incomplete hybrids for sure, while Vaizard means masked soldier. Nothing is told about their nature, but I don't think they're perfect hybrids otherwise Aizen wouldn't need the hougyoku. Regarding Aizen avoiding that process in order to not fight with his inner hollow: I think Aizen's hollow is less evil than his shinigami counterpart... :D

LOL, that gave me a decent laught. Either way, I dont think Aizen would risk fighting a less evil counterpart of himself. As a bad guy, he already has the plot againts him, can you imagine how screwed he would be if he had to fight his less evil self?

drakend
December 04, 2008, 02:36 AM
LOL, that gave me a decent laught. Either way, I dont think Aizen would risk fighting a less evil counterpart of himself. As a bad guy, he already has the plot againts him, can you imagine how screwed he would be if he had to fight his less evil self?
I think his evilness could be a huge advantage: imagine what would happen if Ichigo and Shirosaki were on the same wavelength... two kings without even an inner fight!!!
I think Aizen's shinigami and hollow forms are perfectly aligned.

Epikhigh
December 04, 2008, 04:27 AM
hey is that image of Ichigo from the manga?? I've never seen it before I think....

drakend
December 04, 2008, 05:24 AM
hey is that image of Ichigo from the manga?? I've never seen it before I think....
It's from when Ichigo was training with the Vaizards and he almost became a full hollow.

Forever_Melody
December 04, 2008, 07:51 PM
That theory works only under the assumption that a vizard is not a perfect hybrid though. As far as it has been revealed a vizard can do everything a hollow can do, so there is little reason to believe that they arent perfect hybrids.
There are many reasons for which aizen could choose againts the procedure he used with hirako and the others such as not willing to risk fighting an inner hollow which sucks his power.

We've only seen Vizards use generic hollow powers, but we haven't seen them use specific ones nor are we aware if they are still able to use something similar to "ressurecion" now that Urahara has stabilized their condition. Vizards using generic hollow powers is similar to saying Arrancars can use generic shinigami powers(swords and Sonido).

In no way is the "perfect hybrid' the most powerful being in the universe as said above, but it is certainly the highest standard either side can attain and THAT is probably what Aizen is trying to achieve, to reach his "true" limits.

Now say if Kensei was able to turn into that huge punching monster again, then I'd be prone to say that they are perfect hybrids since they'd have full access to both their hollow and shinigami side in equal amount(i.e. total amount).

kkck
December 04, 2008, 10:30 PM
We've only seen Vizards use generic hollow powers, but we haven't seen them use specific ones nor are we aware if they are still able to use something similar to "ressurecion" now that Urahara has stabilized their condition. Vizards using generic hollow powers is similar to saying Arrancars can use generic shinigami powers(swords and Sonido).

In no way is the "perfect hybrid' the most powerful being in the universe as said above, but it is certainly the highest standard either side can attain and THAT is probably what Aizen is trying to achieve, to reach his "true" limits.

Now say if Kensei was able to turn into that huge punching monster again, then I'd be prone to say that they are perfect hybrids since they'd have full access to both their hollow and shinigami side in equal amount(i.e. total amount).
This is how I see the specific power thing:
Shinigamis have generic abilities which in general are shunpo, swordmanship, kido and hand to hand combat.
They also have a special ability which is unique to every shinigami which in most cases is the shikai and bankai.

In the case of hollows there the generic powers such as cero, strenth or w/e a normal hollow can do.
Then there are specific powers which they have shown which could be the seed thing the first hollow orihime fought had.

If there is a shinigami hollow hybrid, then I think the hybrid would only win the generic abilities from the other side. There wouldnt be a need for another special ability since they already have one. Besides this, I want to point out that inner hollows apparently take over the zanpakutos spirit, so that would for intance that shirosaki and zangetsu have the same special powers, meaning no new special power for ichigo. I think it is safe to assume the same applys for all vizards.

Forever_Melody
December 04, 2008, 11:12 PM
That's not entirely true. During the hollowfication process in the flashback chapters, every victim had some kind of specific hollow trait(in Kensei's case it seemed to be super reiatsu induced punches for example).

IMO if you only had the specifics to one side, then that wouldn't make you a "perfect hybrid" because that means you'd be favoring one side to another. Hence why Vizard are primarily shinigami and Arrancars are in majority hollow.

To me, the ''perfect hybrid'' would have full access to both those sides, being able to release a Zanpakuto as well as use specific hollow powers(depending on what kind of hollow the soul mutated to).

We also have to remember that inner hollows are the intelligence and non-corporeal manifestation of the hollow. When they manifest in the corporeal world, they can use the shinigami powers(in Ogichi's case with Ichigo's Bankai) of their host, but if the host body mutates(like during the Ichigo vs Ogichi battle), then they regain the physical properties they can use as hollows. Ogichi technicalyl never used a cero before that arc so we could assume he only knew shinigami powers, but now we know Ogichi has access to both Ichigo's powers and his own while Ichigo has yet to use any hollow powers.

Darek Khort
December 05, 2008, 02:24 AM
In my opinion for a very, very brief moment when the hollowfication is undergone; each of these guys become very close to perfect hybrid.
I say this because when Ichigo was undergoing his inner struggle, his entire body was almost changed into a hollow (aka OP's picture) and he was able to shoot out that weird thingy at Kensei.
At the same time we see in the picture Ichigo holding his bankai, which is from his shinigami side.

I've always imagined that perfect hybrid would be the use of all shinigami abilities (aka shikai, bankai/etc) AS WELL AS some form of 'ressurrecion'.
However if that were to be the case, Zangetsu and Shirosaki would have to somehow split and work together for both to be usable.

However then that would also be asking the question about how Zangetsu had Ichigo fight Shirosaki at the beginning where Shirosaki was 'split' from Zangetsu. At the very beginning we only see Zangetsu. Then we saw Shirosaki and Zangetsu. Then we saw Shirosaki only having taken over Zangetsu. Just a question...but I wonder whether Ichigo had any major power boost beyond expectation when Shirosaki and Zangetsu were apart....perhaps the fight against Kenpachi? (can't remember....if that is the case then that would be why he 'drew' against Kenpachi...because he was really close to perfect hybrid...if that makes sense.)

Meh, now I'm just rambling.

drakend
December 05, 2008, 03:12 AM
In no way is the "perfect hybrid' the most powerful being in the universe as said above, but it is certainly the highest standard either side can attain and THAT is probably what Aizen is trying to achieve, to reach his "true" limits.

In fact I wrote this:


A being who hasn't this wall is free to merge the two form of reiatsu freely: this merging process should be so tight that a new form is born. This new form of reiatsu outclasses evrey other form of reiatsu we know so far, if the difference isn't too different between the perfect hybrid and his enemies.
I mean if Hanatarou becomes the perfect hybrid he should be able to defeat vice-captains, but captains should be able to defeat him. If Aizen becomes the perfect hybrid than god save us...

I didn't write anything like "the perfect hybrid is automagically the most powerful being in Bleach"!!!
It depends on the amount of reiatsu of the original user, so please you can avoid going around saying "like said above", because I didn't say anything near that.

Regarding the variety of techniques a perfect hybrid would have access to I think he can create new ones by merging shinigami and hollow powers very tightly.

En Yang Ji
December 05, 2008, 03:53 AM
Now that I think about it, it seems Ichigo has used his hollow abilities before he became a hollow. In the fight with Kenpachi, Zangetsu was able to heal Ichigo. The question is, if that is just Zangetsu's ability or a borrowed ability from Shirosaki.

Shirosaki was able to use super-accelerated regeneration when he became a hollow, so maybe that was his ability as a hollow.

drakend
December 05, 2008, 04:21 AM
Now that I think about it, it seems Ichigo has used his hollow abilities before he became a hollow. In the fight with Kenpachi, Zangetsu was able to heal Ichigo. The question is, if that is just Zangetsu's ability or a borrowed ability from Shirosaki.

Shirosaki was able to use super-accelerated regeneration when he became a hollow, so maybe that has his ability as a hollow.
I think people are forgetting one thing: Shirosaki and Zangetsu ARE the same thing, which is Ichigo's sword. It's quite obvious that Ichigo's sword isn't an ordinary shinigami sword, because it is an hybrid sword. I have the suspect that like Ichigo needed to know his sword name in order to achieve bankai (=the strongest manifestation of shinigami power) he will need to know Shirosaki's true name in order to achieve ..., where ... is some kind of released state, perhaps the resuscitation of the arrancars but we can't be sure about it.

kkck
December 05, 2008, 10:44 AM
I think people are forgetting one thing: Shirosaki and Zangetsu ARE the same thing, which is Ichigo's sword. It's quite obvious that Ichigo's sword isn't an ordinary shinigami sword, because it is an hybrid sword. I have the suspect that like Ichigo needed to know his sword name in order to achieve bankai (=the strongest manifestation of shinigami power) he will need to know Shirosaki's true name in order to achieve ..., where ... is some kind of released state, perhaps the resuscitation of the arrancars but we can't be sure about it.


But since shirosaki and zangetsu are the same, wouldnt they have the same powers?

drakend
December 05, 2008, 12:45 PM
But since shirosaki and zangetsu are the same, wouldnt they have the same powers?
They're two sides of the same coin. Zangetsu is the avatar of Ichigo's shinigami power, Shirosaki (whose real name is still unknown) is the avatar of Ichigo's hollow powers. I think the "Soul balance" within Ichigo is very fluid and it continues to vary from shinigami to hollow depending on several factors, but I think this duality problem will cease to exist when the two sides of the coin will become truly one and only coin: the perfect hybrid.

kkck
December 05, 2008, 07:41 PM
They're two sides of the same coin. Zangetsu is the avatar of Ichigo's shinigami power, Shirosaki (whose real name is still unknown) is the avatar of Ichigo's hollow powers. I think the "Soul balance" within Ichigo is very fluid and it continues to vary from shinigami to hollow depending on several factors, but I think this duality problem will cease to exist when the two sides of the coin will become truly one and only coin: the perfect hybrid.

But shirosaki already said he didnt have a name and he was no one though. I dont think he lied about that, shirosaki in reality doesnt have a real name to reveal. I always hoped that ichigo would get to name him though.

Gecko Moria
December 07, 2008, 04:03 AM
Maybe being a bit hollow or a bit shinigami just gives them a greater variety of powers is what Aizen meant. i mean Arrancar have way more abilities than normal hollows

BeerLobster
December 14, 2008, 05:05 AM
Now that I think about it, it seems Ichigo has used his hollow abilities before he became a hollow. In the fight with Kenpachi, Zangetsu was able to heal Ichigo. The question is, if that is just Zangetsu's ability or a borrowed ability from Shirosaki.

Shirosaki was able to use super-accelerated regeneration when he became a hollow, so maybe that was his ability as a hollow.

Did Ichigo use his hollow abilities?
I don't think you should mix them both up despite them being of the same being.

You mean Ichigo's body during his inner hollow fight?
I don't think Shirosaki used super regeneration as shown in the fight with Ichigo.Thus it isn't confirmed yet that that was or is his ability.

drakend
December 14, 2008, 07:42 AM
But shirosaki already said he didnt have a name and he was no one though. I dont think he lied about that, shirosaki in reality doesnt have a real name to reveal. I always hoped that ichigo would get to name him though.
Being aware of the name = Dominating the owner of the name in Bleach.

Shirosaki wants to dominate not be dominated so he doesn't want to reveal his name.

kkck
December 14, 2008, 12:43 PM
So we should disregard the fact that he said he didnt have a name to assume he simply doesnt want to say it?

drakend
December 14, 2008, 04:45 PM
So we should disregard the fact that he said he didnt have a name to assume he simply doesnt want to say it?
Characters lies even in manga, you know... anyway it's just my opinion so I could be wrong.

Fox666
December 15, 2008, 12:16 PM
Well, this time it is a good point...