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rukori
December 17, 2008, 05:47 PM
What is Rubel? I tried to gather all possible answers on the man of mysteries if you want to add something then ask...
What we do know:
1. He can pick up a claymore with one hand like it's a wooden-sword.
2. He hasn't noticeably aged since his first chronological appearance in Raphaela's time(which was about 30-40 years ago).
3. He seems to be able to find every soldier wherever she goes even if she suppresses her Youki.
4. Claims to be a spy for the Org's enemies. That means he had been lying for decades nonstop...
5. Well, he's mysterious right?

Sportgal1
December 17, 2008, 06:06 PM
i voted for DoD because it makes sense (to me at least) that they'd someone who could test an AB out if need be.

I don't think a yoma would've survived this long and been able to find claymores easily. An AB wouldn't work with the org from what we've seen and would have no reason to fight DoD or spy for them. He isn't a normal human, i think we can assume, nor is he a Claymore, because he's male. Magic is still too wierd for claymore.

So i went with DoD !

Wowzers
December 18, 2008, 12:28 AM
Well, Rubel admittedly works for the other side in the war. He is a spy but he never said he is a dod. For him to infiltrate the organization he will have to be the same race as the handlers. All the organizations handlers look... well, deformed in some way and they don't seem to age perceptibly. I suppose they could be altered humans but I prefer to think of them as a separate race so I'm picking "other".

Darklight01
December 26, 2008, 02:31 AM
for now DoD sounds like an obvious choice since its proven he IS a spy for them (not meaning he IS a DoD) so i voted for DoD but opinion might change with new chaps..HOW THE HECK do u wait a month?!?!?! thats 12 chaps a year!!!...Yagi...draw the chaps faster!!! =p and editor of monthly SJ...move it to weekly!!!...please? =( =p (like thats gone happen =( ) =p
[hr]

i voted for DoD because it makes sense (to me at least) that they'd someone who could test an AB out if need be.

I don't think a yoma would've survived this long and been able to find claymores easily. An AB wouldn't work with the org from what we've seen and would have no reason to fight DoD or spy for them. He isn't a normal human, i think we can assume, nor is he a Claymore, because he's male. Magic is still too wierd for claymore.

So i went with DoD !

he can be a claymore...males can be one...they just awaken too quikly but the handlers mite have been developed a diff way since rubel is a spy, he might have been changed to fit the role of a handler(put yoma inside? but in a diff way so he can work as handler instead of soldier) by the org when he came to or was found by them...just stating possibility

natli
December 26, 2008, 04:13 PM
I voted 'other' since I don't sense any DoD or yoma vibes from him, but there is something wrong with him so... Maybe the handlers somehow suplement their strenght with a tiny little bit of yoma DNA...alright, I've no idea what he is :D

kinpin1
January 04, 2009, 09:22 PM
What does DoD stand for?

Sportgal1
January 04, 2009, 09:27 PM
Descendants of Dragon, i think. There the 'people' on the other side of the war who are the dragon's kin.

kaliayev
January 05, 2009, 11:41 AM
I think the term originated outside the canon, but yeah, it's basically our nickname for the opposing side on the main continent. Personally, I only use the term to refer to the draconic beings.

nat
January 05, 2009, 02:19 PM
I think he is a dragon (warrior) in his non-awakened form.
Just a guess....

Very good points, Rukori, especially the second..I never really thought about it before but now that you mention it, it does make sense.

White Silver King
February 01, 2009, 10:10 AM
IDK, but whatever he is the rest of the Org. non-Claymore members are. Because they all (except for the one guy who has covered his whole body, which has to had been done for a reason) have visible deformities/yoma like features. Also, they have to have some sort of power in order to eliminate the risk of being killed by their Claymore.

Shinkohyo
February 04, 2009, 10:28 AM
I voted for Magician, because

- The handlers seem to ageless (or seem to stop aging when they look really creepy).
- They have no fear handling the claymores. Has never one attacked their handler, sneaked up at their bed to kill them? Or is just that they can defend themselves against those traitorous ones?
- Also if the handler can do with their "magic" about as much damage as a claymore it would make sense that they would need AB (the more powerful the better) against the DoD.
- Those Claymores (the swords) need to be fabricated somehow.

HegemonKhan
January 12, 2010, 08:39 PM
instead of what biologically he is.

i'm going to throw out an idea about what "faction" (or side) he is on..


yes, the manga, has him saying he is a "spy" for the other side, the dragon side. yes, he has helped out miria, galatea, and clare against the Organization. yes, he has even done some actions against the Organization.


YET.... I'm not buying it! RUBEL LIES THROUGH HIS TEETH!

Frankly, I see Rubel as the LEADER of the Organization. If you seen Batman Begins movie, Rubel is just like Raz al' ghoul, pretending to be a subordinate (though in the case of rubel, a rebel spy) and having that asian guy as the fake leader of the League of Shadows, which Rimuto would be the equivolent fake leader of the organization.


Rubel is too much of a master manipulator/puppeteer, for him to not be the LEADER of the Organization. He has EVERYONE/EVERYTHING dancing to his "strings". He is just playing with everyone like Jigsaw from the Saw movies. He's just lying and pretending to be a spy for the other side (if there even is actually the other side, with dragons...) in order to get trust and then use them!


I mean look at it this way. RUBEL KNOWS WHO ARE THE POWER PLAYERS AND HAS ALREADY GOT THEM ON HIS SIDE! Rafaela, Rubel's personal assassin. Leader and tactician Miria. Galatea the God-Eye. Lastly, Clare, his trump card. He also used/manipulated a Clare whom was about to kill him, to do exactly what he wanted, Awakening the Destroyer within the half merged bodies of Rafaela and Luciela, which he couldn't do as Riful had them...


Clare is going to become what the Organization wants, and the LEADER of the Organization, RUBEL is making it happen, and Clare doesn't even realize it. grins. and Rubel says "it is a good thing that the Organization doesn't know about Half Awakens"... to bad Rubel is the very leader of the Organization, and knows full well about Half Awakens! So, he began the creation of the ultimate Half Awaken weapon.... Clare !!!!

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p.s.

this was only a very brief explanation, if interested, i can provide a much more detailed and better quality of this.

jamie95403
March 04, 2011, 05:35 PM
After perusing HegemonKhan's dossier on Louvre, the info points in five directions:

1. Louvre is working for the overseas power behind the Org (original HegemonKhan hypothesis)
2. He's working for the Dragons' Allies
3. He's working for third parties unknown
4. He's an independent
5. Any combination of the above

For myself, I like No. 5, but willing to be proved wrong. HegemonKhan's hypothesis reminds me of Satan in Mark Twain's last book, "The Mysterious Stranger," with Louvre as Satan.

What would be even funnier to me would be Clare as the sub-atomic particle at the end of Twain's novel, traveling everywhere in the Universe (presumably going back in time), reconstructing everything, including the island world of Claymore and Louvre himself.

But I guess that's for another manga series...

HegemonKhan
March 05, 2011, 12:59 AM
Rubel the Black Spider and LEADER of the Organization:

1. Rubel said he personally trained Clare

2. Rubel caught Trainee Claymore Clare's claymore sword with only one hand, and his hand didn't even move from the force of the weight of the sword and Trainee Claymore Clare's toss.

3. Rubel stopped the spar match between Clare and the other trainee.

4. Rubel came to watch Trainee Claymore Clare succeed at her final test/trial.

5. Rubel secretly created and trained Priscilla, unknown to the other BCs and Irene, Rubel allowed Irene to watch Priscilla killing some Yoma, which resulted in Irene yielding her rank to Priscilla, which then meant that Irene was thus inserting Priscilla into the Teresa Execution Squad, instead of rank 5 Elda.

6. Only Rubel knows about Awakened Priscilla as well.

7. Rubel was Miria's "informant"

8. Rubel saved Galatea at least three times from being executed by the other BCs. (1) when she lied about Clare+Jean+herself surviving a battle against Dauf+Riful (2) Galatea opening her big mouth in front of Rimuto about Rafaela+Renee being ordered to make sure that the 24 Claymores die in Pieta (3) allowing Galatea to watch Alicia+Beth+Soul Link in action knowing it will motivate Galatea to desert the Org, before the Org is able to execute her.

9. Rubel was Galatea's "informant"

10. Rubel learned about HA Miria from Ophelia, whereas she never told her own BC, Ermita, about HA Miria. Ophelia lied to Ermita, saying she had to go pee, to meet secretly with Hilda and tear up her black card, never telling Ermita about it, nor about witnessing Miria becoming a HA. But, Ophelia told Rubel about HA Miria

11. Rubel assigns Clare to be a mission with Ophelia, even though Ermita is in charge of Ophelia. He was planning on Ophelia attacking HA Clare, so that Clare would kill Ophelia, as she was the last remaining source of knowledge about HAs, which Rubel wanted to keep this knowledge all to himself.

12. Rubel assigns Clare to be on a mission with Miria, even though Ermita is in charge of Miria. Making Miria, Deneve, and Helen wait an entire week for Clare to arrive, which upset them.

13. Rubel knew about Clare+Teresa, as he teases Clare about her relationship with Raki.

14. Rubel "happens" to be the BC that Clare finds with Teresa's head in her hands/arms.

15. Rubel mocks the power of Alicia+Beth

16. Rubel teases Clare about Priscilla and about not being the hero of her Era

17. Rubel gets Rafaela banished/exiled instead of executed, and "chats" with her about Luciela and why she didn't Regenerate her eye.

18. Rubel using that banishment/exile of Rafaela to secretly meet with Rafaela unknown to the BCs, and to blackmail Rafaela using information about Luciela, into making her into his personal "right hand".

19. Rubel re-instates Rafaela all on his own, having the power/authority to do so.

20. Rubel using/with Rafaela hunts down Clare+Jean and sends them to Pieta.

21. Rubel is caught lying about Clare in regards to the Clare+Ophelia+Gonahl single digit/ranked female AB incident by Rimuto, yet nothing happens to Rubel.

22. Rubel knew where Dae's secret Lab was.

23. Rubel knew that Dae was given the "green light" for his monster creations, even though it was a private chat between Dae+Rimuto only.

24. Rubel manipulates Clare to go to Riful and the half-merged bodies of Rafaela+Luciela, resulting in the Awakening of the Destroyer.

25. Rubel was trying to find/get the half-merged bodies of Rafaela+Luciela back from Riful by secretly using Renee, then 3 unknown CLaymores and 2 unknown BCs, and finally Clare.

26. Rubel answers Clare's question about what the Org would do about Priscilla if they had to take her on, and he answers Clare as if he's the LEADER and in charge of the Organization, himself.

27. Rubel is none to pleased when Rimuto sends the AFs+Alicia+Beth to finish off Riful in Luatrec, as he was conducting his own secret operations (having Clare go to Riful and the half-merged bodies of Rafaela+Luciela to Awaken the Destroyer).

28. Rubel knew that Miria was going to attack the Org HQs and "die", and was waiting there to give us his accurate assessment "eulogy" of Miria's true character. Not being worried at all, while the other BC is freaking out.

29. Rubel hints at knowing that Miria actually wasn't dead.

30. Rubel has Rafaela hunt down and execute Irene, as she has knowledge about the Clare+Teresa+Priscilla incident, which Rubel wants to keep hidden all to himself.

31. Rubel "chats" with Raki about Clare and Claymores' Awakening into Awakeneds' fate, causing Raki to go running after Clare, only to witness her executing her only friend, Elena.

32. Rubel captures Raki and sends him to Alphonse with the Slave Traders, and then uses this to get Clare+Jean to go to Pieta.

33. Rubel always wears his signiture glasses and hat, and dresses the most normally (to us, our real world) and is completely covered in his clothes as well. Does Rubel have an inhuman body to hide? Does Rubel have "sharingan/bakugan/Rinnegan-like" eyes? Can Rubel see the future?

34. Rubel is seen only one time with a tiny disfigurement, slightly bulging veins in his hand is only a single pic in the entire manga.

35. Rubel sends Clare to execute the Cathedral SNY in Rabona, using her special infiltration and "ninja" skills uniquely taught only to her by Rubel.

36. etc...

jamie95403
March 05, 2011, 02:48 PM
I apologize for the length of this reply. But HegemonKhan-san deserves some answers, which are really further questions. I make no claims to any accuracy. HegemonKhan may well be correct in his hypothesis. I discount nothing.


1. Rubel said he personally trained Clare.

Answer: Hermitage, Louvre and the other Men-in-Black may be trained to say they're like parents to the warriors as they grow up from childhood to adults. Unless they awaken. Remember Hermitage's funny response to Galetea in Scene 30 about not having a monster as a child?

2. Rubel caught Trainee Claymore Clare's claymore sword with only one hand, and his hand didn't even move from the force of the weight of the sword and Trainee Claymore Clare's toss.

Answer: The swords are of unknown composition and weight. What are they made of? We need more information. I've speculated the blades might be grown from something like iron crystals. With their atoms perfectly aligned, the resulting blades would be hundreds of times stronger than a forged blade.

3. Rubel stopped the spar match between Clare and the other trainee.

Answer: Org personnel are adults---they're suppose to keep the children in line, I would suspect, regardless what section they're in.

4. Rubel came to watch Trainee Claymore Clare succeed at her final test/trial.

Answer: Maybe Clare was assigned to him already? He did seem surprised at her survival.

5. Rubel secretly created and trained Priscilla, unknown to the other BCs and Irene, Rubel allowed Irene to watch Priscilla killing some Yoma, which resulted in Irene yielding her rank to Priscilla, which then meant that Irene was thus inserting Priscilla into the Teresa Execution Squad, instead of rank 5 Elda.

Answer: What about the evaluations in the Claymore Data Books? If required reading for personnel in the Org, Priscilla either as a warrior or Awakened Being wouldn't be so secret.

It is odd that in Scene 18 Sophia and Noel didn't know they were demoted, but perhaps Irene was given the task of breaking the news.

6. Only Rubel knows about Awakened Priscilla as well.

Answer: Refer again to Data Book 1 and 2. Also, much of the general lack of current knowledge of Priscilla in the Org might be accounted for by her very brief career, lasting "a few months," according to Irene. Remember Teresa was the 182nd warrior of the 77th generation. With hundreds of warriors coming and going each year (if that's what's a generation is), it would be difficult to remember everyone.

Also, a number of years have passed between the death of Teresa and the current warrior generation. Memory of Priscilla would have been lost among thousands of warriors.

7. Rubel was Miria's "informant."

Answer: Possibly. Or not. Everything so far has been implied or inferred. Only when we see a flashback or Miria saying it will we know for certain.

8. Rubel saved Galatea at least three times from being executed by the other BCs. (1) when she lied about Clare+Jean+herself surviving a battle against Dauf+Riful (2) Galatea opening her big mouth in front of Rimuto about Rafaela+Renee being ordered to make sure that the 24 Claymores die in Pieta (3) allowing Galatea to watch Alicia+Beth+Soul Link in action knowing it will motivate Galatea to desert the Org, before the Org is able to execute her.

Answer: Or it could have been Chief Klimt that saves Galatea. In Scene 61, Klimt warns Galatea that he's indulging her behavior. We don't see Louvre standing up for Galatea.

It could be that it's Louvre trying to get Galatea executed for desertion.

9. Rubel was Galatea's "informant."

Answer: Surely there's a gossip grapevine within the Org. Galetea may have multiple sources of info, just as Miria may.

10. Rubel learned about HA Miria from Ophelia, whereas she never told her own BC, Ermita, about HA Miria. Ophelia lied to Ermita, saying she had to go pee, to meet secretly with Hilda and tear up her black card, never telling Ermita about it, nor about witnessing Miria becoming a HA. But, Ophelia told Rubel about HA Miria.

Answer: What about the other two warrior witnesses? Wouldn't they report what happened to their handlers? Wouldn't it be difficult to hide Miria's awakening from the Org?

11. Rubel assigns Clare to be a mission with Ophelia, even though Ermita is in charge of Ophelia. He was planning on Ophelia attacking HA Clare, so that Clare would kill Ophelia, as she was the last remaining source of knowledge about HAs, which Rubel wanted to keep this knowledge all to himself.

Answer: Or it could have been the other way around---Clare could have been the target. Perhaps Louvre feared that Clare might turn out to be an successful experiment. It's even possible that Ophelia was under orders from from the Org (via Hermitage) to kill Clare, but we need to see some evidence. Louvre may be innocent of ill intent toward Clare or Ophelia.

12. Rubel assigns Clare to be on a mission with Miria, even though Ermita is in charge of Miria. Making Miria, Deneve, and Helen wait an entire week for Clare to arrive, which upset them.

Answer: Wasn't it Lucky who slowed Clare down? Again, Louvre may have been under orders to dispose of Clare because of her awakening at Rabona. Or again innocent.

13. Rubel knew about Clare+Teresa, as he teases Clare about her relationship with Raki.

Answer: Everyone teases Clare about Lucky!

14. Rubel "happens" to be the BC that Clare finds with Teresa's head in her hands/arms.

Answer: How would Louvre know that Clare wished to join the Org and wanted Teresa implanted into her?

15. Rubel mocks the power of Alicia+Beth.

Answer: It might be part of Louvre's sarcastic personality.

16. Rubel teases Clare about Priscilla and about not being the hero of her Era.

Answer: Clare being No. 47 and being nearly killed by a Common Yoma (though more powerful than usual) in Rabona may have something to do with that comment. Refer back to statement No. 1. Clare is being treated as a child.

17. Rubel gets Rafaela banished/exiled instead of executed, and "chats" with her about Luciela and why she didn't Regenerate her eye.

Answer: Perhaps Klimt wanted to save Rafaela for future use. Or didn't care what happened to her. To been a fly on the wall at that Council meeting after the Luciela disaster!

18. Rubel using that banishment/exile of Rafaela to secretly meet with Rafaela unknown to the BCs, and to blackmail Rafaela using information about Luciela, into making her into his personal "right hand".

Answer: Or Louvre may have been assigned to find Rafaela. The Org did lose warriors No. 1 through 5. Louvre may have simply told her the truth---the Org was shorthanded.

19. Rubel re-instates Rafaela all on his own, having the power/authority to do so.

Answer: Or he was simply sent by Klimt to make Rafaela an offer she couldn't refuse---a chance to find her sister.

20. Rubel using/with Rafaela hunts down Clare+Jean and sends them to Pieta.

Answer: Didn't Klimt order Hermitage and Galatea to find Clare to begin with? As with statement No. 18, the Org was simply shorthanded.

21. Rubel is caught lying about Clare in regards to the Clare+Ophelia+Gonahl single digit/ranked female AB incident by Rimuto, yet nothing happens to Rubel.

Answer: In rereading Scene 41 (VIZ translation), Louvre doesn't appear to lie. He merely confirms Klimt's statement that the Org last had contact with Clare three months ago.

22. Rubel knew where Dae's secret Lab was.

Answer: Why would it be a secret? Org personnel might avoid visiting it on account of fear of the entities being created there.

23. Rubel knew that Dae was given the "green light" for his monster creations, even though it was a private chat between Dae+Rimuto only.

Answer: What about the other Man-in-Black that was checking Dae's progress, as well as ordering Louvre back to a meeting?

24. Rubel manipulates Clare to go to Riful and the half-merged bodies of Rafaela+Luciela, resulting in the Awakening of the Destroyer.

Answer: Perhaps as other forum members have suggested, Louvre wished to destroy the half-awakened warriors, lest they get captured by the Org and someone like Dae uses them to recreate an army of successful half-awakened beings for the mainland war.

25. Rubel was trying to find/get the half-merged bodies of Rafaela+Luciela back from Riful by secretly using Renee, then 3 unknown Claymores and 2 unknown BCs, and finally Clare.

Answer: How did Louvre know about the merged sisters? We aren't told what Renee was doing in Lautrec. And it appears she was trying to escape Riffle, rather than find her. The search party in Lacroix only mentioned Renee, not the merged sisters.

26. Rubel answers Clare's question about what the Org would do about Priscilla if they had to take her on, and he answers Clare as if he's the LEADER and in charge of the Organization, himself.

Answer: Or it could interpreted as basic Org policy. Refer back to statement No. 1. Louvre is treating Clare as a child again.

27. Rubel is none to pleased when Rimuto sends the AFs+Alicia+Beth to finish off Riful in Luatrec, as he was conducting his own secret operations (having Clare go to Riful and the half-merged bodies of Rafaela+Luciela to Awaken the Destroyer).

Answer: If Louvre is in charge of the Org, why didn't he countermand the order? Why does he let others in the Org order him around?

28. Rubel knew that Miria was going to attack the Org HQs and "die", and was waiting there to give us his accurate assessment "eulogy" of Miria's true character. Not being worried at all, while the other BC is freaking out.

Answer: How did he know Miria would show up? How did he know the warriors wouldn't kill her? He might have helped her while she recovered somewhere near Org HQ, as well as instigate the rebellion, but we need to see some evidence.

29. Rubel hints at knowing that Miria actually wasn't dead.

Answer: You mean that Council meeting with Clarice? He's thinking that he can't believe that Miria would willingly “die like a dog” in Alfons, not that she's still alive as an established fact.

30. Rubel has Rafaela hunt down and execute Irene, as she has knowledge about the Clare+Teresa+Priscilla incident, which Rubel wants to keep hidden all to himself.

Answer: Well, only Irene's arm could have been found on that mountain, so that might have raised suspicions at the Org whether Irene deserted. It would be standard Org policy to hunt down and execute Irene.

31. Rubel "chats" with Raki about Clare and Claymores' Awakening into Awakeneds' fate, causing Raki to go running after Clare, only to witness her executing her only friend, Elena.

Answer: Louvre can be sadistic at times...

32. Rubel captures Raki and sends him to Alphonse with the Slave Traders, and then uses this to get Clare+Jean to go to Pieta.

Answer: That's what Clare suspects, but we need more proof of Louvre's involvement. It could be another Man-in-Black acting for the Org for all we know.

33. Rubel always wears his signature glasses and hat, and dresses the most normally (to us, our real world) and is completely covered in his clothes as well. Does Rubel have an inhuman body to hide? Does Rubel have "sharingan/bakugan/Rinnegan-like" eyes? Can Rubel see the future?

Answer: Perhaps he has injuries/scars from his work in the past. Or he could be part something else---Dragon? Yoma?

34. Rubel is seen only one time with a tiny disfigurement, slightly bulging veins in his hand is only a single pic in the entire manga.

Answer: Hard to judge the significance of that. Speculations anyone?

35. Rubel sends Clare to execute the Cathedral SNY in Rabona, using her special infiltration and "ninja" skills uniquely taught only to her by Rubel.

Answer: Didn't Clare tell Lucky that all warriors are trained to impersonate various role models, ranging from aristocratic ladies to prostitutes?
[hr]
HegemonKhan,

Please don't change any of your theories on account of me or anyone else. I'm very prosaic and literal. You are far more intelligent than me and I don't always understand the intricacies of your ideas. Just keep being you. Do it your way!

HegemonKhan
March 05, 2011, 10:19 PM
my thoughts in more depth/detail:

1. We have Rubel saying he trained Clare himself and the BCs involved with Alicia+Beth+Soul Link training, but we haven't seen anyone else who trains the Claymores, not even seeing the Claymores mentoring the Trainee Claymores, as the closest we see is sparrings and/or challenge duels between Claymores and/or Trainee Claymores for rank promotions or personal reasons.

So, it seems that the training is done by the BCs. This means that the BCs know military training (combat skills, Martial Arts, distance, balance, reach/range/ranging, strength, speed, agility, parrying, dodging, timing, perception, combinations, swordsmanship, and etc), Yoma body and Yoki training (teaching the Claymores how to use their new bodies, yokis, and how to resist their yoki), psychological/mental conditioning/training, training civilian humans into Claymore killing machine hardcore warriors, diplomacy, infiltration, deception, seduction, politics, organization, management, administration, chain of command, leadership, strategy, tactics, "ninja" skills, stealth, assassination, ranking their Claymores' and their Power Levels, and etc... (and not to mention the BCs/Dae/Rubel knowing the "Science and Medical" of Yoma and Yoki).

2. the claymore swords are suppose to be unbreakable, which is seen to be the case, they NEVER break from anything, with only two possible exceptions: in the weird "mind-dream-illusion world" Clare's Quick Sword shatters "Rafaela's" claymore sword, as well as slicing "Rafaela" to pieces, and possibly Clare's claymore sword got "consumed" by the Destroyer when Deneve lost her arm with was holding Clare's claymore sword (but Deneve still has two swords, hers and either Clare's or Undine's).

as to my speculations as to what they are or made out of:

they're actually not a metal but instead is the bone from super hard Awakeneds/Dragons

if it's a metal, I call it Claymorium, hehe

it's like Adamantium, Mithril, or Diamond, as it's unbreakable

whatever it is made out of, it presumably comes from the continent, as Miria can't find it anywhere on the island, but that doesn't mean it can't actually come from the island as well. Also, the Org actually doesn't care about the claymore swords, as they allow claymore swords to be left around the island. So, they obviously must be able to "create/forge more or re-stock/get more of them"....

the claymore swords are heavy (ripped/dislocated Clare's shoulder out of its socket and child Raki and Galk had to carry and/or toss it+statue it was inside with two hands), as they are claymores (real world: 4-5 foot scottish swords, hehe), but they don't seem heavier than they should be.

Yet, Rubel catching it with one hand, and no movement by his hand/arm upon impact, is well beyond human strength, imo....

3. Rubel shows that he is concerned about the development/safety of his "personal precious project/creation: Clare", why create a being with Teresa's flesh (the most powerful being of all time), only to destroy it? that makes no sense!

4. (see #3). He's not surprised, he trained her afterall and knows her potential or power level, he's just pretending to be surprised towards the other BC. (remember that Rubel went out of his way, tried to lie, to hide/keep secret Clare's rising power level as seen with her surviving the single digit/ranked gonahl female AB, Claymore Ophelia, and Awakened Ophelia). Rubel wants to keep Clare's potential/power level a secret from the rest of the BCs. He wants them to keep thinking that Clare is a weak failed 1/4 Yoma Claymore, that they need not pay attention to.

5. chapter 110, the BCs know absolutely nothing about Priscilla, past and present. obviously we got a contradiction between the actual manga content and the "databooks".

6. (see #5).

my understanding:

77th *year* out of the 100 years of the Org being on the island and making Claymores on the island

182 *Claymore warrior* TOTAL (at that point) to be ranked (made official/active doing missions, having completed the final test/trial as a trainee)

the manga as shown NO replacement of dead, Awakened, or deserted ranks until the next "Era". Claymores are NOT "constantly being replaced". There's NOT hundreds/thousands of Claymores, as straight up... that'd be insane... you only want a few "superhumans" in order to control them and not get usurped/killed by them. We humans don't want to create legions of terminators or super soldiers... only a few of them, that we can control and/or destroy, hehe :D

Priscilla, a rookie who (*IF*, which she actually isn't) "is" more powerful than Teresa, would NOT be "forgettened" or not known about... lol

Rubel truly kept Priscilla's existence, as a trainee, as a Claymore, and as an Awakened, (and Priscilla herself as one of thee best Yoki Suppression Abilities, as Teresa herself couldn't sense Priscilla, kept herself unknown to the Org) SECRET from the other BCs. Rubel had to have "sneaked" Priscilla onto Irene's team without the Org ever learning of the change from rank 5 Elda to rank 2 Priscilla. The Org never knew that Rubel secretly had Irene watch Priscilla, which resulted in Irene giving up her rank 2 spot to Priscilla, which thus made Priscilla a part of the rank 2-5 team to execute Teresa, dumping out Elda, as she is now demoted to rank 6, and thus not participating in the team to execute TEresa.

7. it's quite "confirmed" for the manga content standards. Rubel is indeed Miria's informant, Rubel himself admits it, Ophelia too conveys it, and it matches up with Miria's inferences as well.

8. Galatea is shooting her mouth off, about how the Pieta Battle was a "cleansing/purging" of their own "troublesome" Claymores. peeving off Rimuto, and in steps Rubel diffusing and preventing Galatea from speaking more, saving her bottom from being executed on the spot.

As well, as the two other instances as well. Someone prevented Galatea from being executed on the spot for her lie about Clare's survival and their encounter/battle with Riful+Dauf. And that's got to be Rubel.

Finally, Rubel allows Galatea to see the secret Alicia+Beth 's Awakening+Soul Link in action, for future use possibly, and knowing it would motivate her "as the final straw" to leave the Org, as it's probably was close to when the Org was going to finally execute her otherwise, had she not deserted.

9. (see #8).

there's one thing that Rubel would NOT inform Galatea about, in regards to Alicia+Beth and the secret Soul Link project:

Rubel would NOT tell Galatea that Luciela's younger sister, was none other than, Rafaela who was two ranks below Galatea hehe. Oh no, Rubel didn't want Galatea to know that he's personally using Rafaela, one of thee most powerful Claymores, for his own ends, hehe :D

10. they could have been killed... by Ophelia (or by Rafaela) on Rubel's orders... or killed how ever (a mission) and/or Ophelia could have told them to be silent about it.

11. Clare is Rubel's ultimate weapon, he's forcing her into hard battles, to accelerate her growth and power level increase, hehe :D

No, Ophelia was the "loose cannon" who knew too much, Rubel needed her killed, and Clare was perfect and Rubel could also see if Clare could handle Ophelia or not. It's quite possible that Rubel sent Irene to save Clare from Ophelia... only to then have Rafaela still execute Irene, suspiciously AFTER Irene has made "his" Clare more powerful hehe :D

and in having Rafaela kill Irene, he removes the last remaining witness to the secret Teresa+Priscilla incident.

12. Rubel specifically has kept HAs' existence secret from the Org. To this date, the Org knows NOTHING about HAs' existance. Rimuto is/was completely unaware of Clare becoming a HA.

again, Rubel's NOT going to destroy his own personal ultimate weapon/soldier he's personally creating and "grooming"/training/developing :D

13. no... I think only Helen has... hehe :D (but I could be wrong)

14. um... from spying on Clare+Teresa, and "grooming" her before she met Teresa, and than with direct evidence that he was successful, with Clare holding up Teresa's head to him being the first and only human to WANT, and even DEMAND to be made into a Claymore:

Clare: "Give me! Put inside my body! Teresa's FLESH AND BLOOD!" (RAWR!!!, brave girl to be making such a demand to Rubel, the LEADER of the Organization, hehe)

15. Rubel mocks the "power" of the "powerful" Alicia+Beth, because cough cough, they don't compare to Priscilla, nor Teresa (which is in HIS Clare), as was made painfully clear to them, with Priscilla pwning/killing them so easily.

The Org's most powerful warriors, Alicia+Beth+Soul Link, was a joke, compared to Rubel's Priscilla, grins :D

Rubel knew that Alicia+Beth weren't "all that powerful".

Rubel has much more powerfully creations: Priscilla, Destroyer, and the ultimate potential of the HAs, with Clare getting somewhat close the the HAs "holy grail" that the Org so desires, a Claymore that can Awaken and De-Awaken at will, without becoming an Awakened.

if you know DBZ, Bleach, or Naruto, it's like this:

imagine Goku having the power of SSJ2/3 as normal (non-SSJ) "human" Goku body
or
imagine Ichigo having the power of his Final Gengetsu Tengen, as normal "human" Ichigo body
or
imagine Naruto having the power of the Nine Tailed Fox+Sage mode, while as normal "human" Naruto body

-----------------------------------------------------------

I'll continue this later (another day)....

jamie95403
March 06, 2011, 02:00 AM
Answer to above regarding warrior population: Adding up the toll of dead warriors from Scene 4 (1), Scene 25 (1), Scene 40 (1), Scene 41 (1), Scene 42 (1 + the 30 Riffle mentioned that she awakened), and at the end of Scene 61 (24 officially, though we know 7 survived). If Galatea deserted right after Pieta, that would bring the total replacements the Org needed to 60 warriors.

I'm guessing the time between Scene 1 to Scene 61 may well been within a year. But the real replacement total may well be much greater. If the yearly death toll is double (120 approx.), than the 144 warriors of Teresa's generation (if generations are yearly) makes sense.

144 warrior replacements, say, a year X 100 years = 14400 warriors. And if ten years lapsed between Teresa's death and the beginning of the series, that would be 1440 warriors that needed to be replaced.

Add the 7-Year Time Skip to a decade and we get 2448 warriors for the Org to remember... or forget. Even if the real numbers were half or a quarter of these sums, it's doubtful that anyone in the Org would recall a former No. 2 that served only a few months. The Org apparently knows Priscilla as an Awakened Being, but mistakenly under-assessed her power (getting back to the Data Books).

Of course, Scenes 1 through 61 might have been just a bad year....

But given that four Awakened Being hunting parties (Nina's, Audrey's, Dietrich's), plus that search party in Lacroix, were all saved (15 lives) from certain death by the Ghosts within the space of a few weeks, I suspect that death rate as high as ever. Say the time from when the Ghosts saved Nina's party to Deneuve and Co. saving Dietrich's party was a month. 15 warriors X 12 months is 180 warriors. Say two months and we have 90 warriors, plus whoever elsewhere get killed.

As Renee told Lucky in Dega (Doga) village, warriors are being replaced all the time.

And as an alternative to the current hypotheses about Louvre, I'm waiting for someone to finally announce that Louvre is really an triple agent, working for the Org, doubling for the Dragons' Allies, but really working for Father Vincent. Louvre does dress like a priest and generally avoids vulgar behavior. To speculate, he sent his best warrior, Clare, to protect his beloved superior, Father Vincent. Further, Father Louvre maneuvered Galatea to become a nun at Rabona Cathedral in order to have someone 24-7 protect the Holy City from the likes of Agatha. He further tricked the Org to send Clarice and Miata to help.

I welcome any further evidence in support of the Father Louvre hypothesis.

HegemonKhan
March 06, 2011, 04:21 AM
your incorrect with saying that "Scene 1" (chapter 1) to "scene 61" (chapter 61) is only a year because there are flashbacks in it. unless, you're refering to Claymore Clare's "screen time" in Clare's "Era" from ch 1 to ch 61, than it might be a year, than my bad, and you're possibly right. I'm not sure which you meant, lol.

(I theorize that Clare's Era has seen ~ 5-6 years already BEFORE/PRIOR to ch 1 and ch 1 Claymore Clare, Clare becomes a ranked Claymore on the ~ 5-6th year of Clare's Era. On the ~ 6-7th year Elena becomes a ranked Claymore. ch 1 - ch 61 is that last 7th year of Clare's Era, ending with the end of the Pieta Battle, and becoming Clarice's Era, immediately after the Pieta Battle)

100 years / 14 "Eras" = ~7 years per "Era"

"Eras" = a changing of the rank 1 Claymore and/or if half or more of the Claymore Force is KIA/MIA/AIA (Killed In Action/Missing In Action/Awakened In Action).

14 "Eras" = (1) Isley (2) Riful (3) Lucila (4) Rosemary (5) Teresa (6) Clare (7) Clarice (8) Hysteria (9) Licht (10) Chloe (11) Lutecia (12) Roxanne (13) Sistina (14) Cassandra

I'd guess that the final tests/trials for the trainees are held every month, usually resulting in only 1-5 trainees out of the 10 trainees who participate who survive/pass it and become ranked Claymores. However usually only at most half of the Claymore Force, 47/2 = 23 or 24, needs new recruits. So, that'd be ~2 "passers" for the tests/trials being held every month, 2 x 12 = 24. For Clare's test/trial we see this match up: 10 triainees: 8 killed/dead trainees, Clare who passes/kills the NY, and 1 surviving Claymore (thanks to Clare) who we don't know if she was made into a ranked Claymore or not.

Also... a dark theory on my part: Claymores do NOT seem to know each other very well. This makes sense too from the Org's perspective of controlling them. Therefore I can certainly see that the Org WANTS only 1-2 trainees to survive the test/trials... and might even kill off the trainees if they're not killed by the NY, in order to keep the new Claymore from having any friends and/or knowing about their abilities, which is indeed seen to be the case. Claymores at best have only a single friend Claymore (such as Deneve+Helen or Clare+Elena or Miria+Hilda or Undine+her friend or Teresa+Irene or Sophia+Noel or Rafaela+Luciela or Alicia+Beth or Clarice+Miata), and are not aware of other Claymores nor their abilities, unless they've become famous, having titles and powerful Sword TEchniques or yoma/yoki abilities.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

your numbers of Claymores are unrealistically large in my opinion.

here's an accurate record of all of the killed Claymores per Era:

http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1826701&postcount=2

there's only 47 Claymores at a time, 1 Claymore for each region, and there's 47 regions on the island.

why only 1 Claymore per region?

To prevent the Claymores from fighting/killing each other off. All Claymores work alone unless they on an AB hunt or other special circumstance.

if there were multiple Claymores in the same region:

Claymore A: "Hey, that was my Yoma to kill!"
Claymore B: "Aww, too bad, I got to it first and killed it!"
Claymore A: "I'll KILL YOU! DAMNIT!"
Claymore B: "Pfft, go ahead and try, I'll F'N KILL YOU!"

and again, Claymores are NOT replaced, until the next Era.

see the rest of my posts in the Characters of Claymore thread, for more details/explanations.

-------------------------------------------------------

in terms of the laws of nature:

there's no way the island could support so many Claymores/Awakeneds as you've expressed as your view.

the higher up the food chain, the less you can have.

there can only be a few lions (Claymores/Awakeneds)
and lots of gazelles (Humans)

if lions increase to too many, they will eat up all the gazelles, and than themselves, until only one lion remains, which it too then dies, from starvation.

for balance to be maintained, the lions must be few un number.

if you had that many Claymores, they you got "that many" (keeping this simple) Awakeneds. with that many Awakeneds, they would devour the island of ALL life, including humans.

you're numbers of Claymores/Awakeneds is completely unrealistic, imo, as I've tried to explain.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

personally, instead of making up ambigious numbers of Claymores, you should work only with what the manga has given you.

Because, you don't know if there has been:

47 Claymores x 100 years
or
47 Claymores x 14 Eras
or
47+ (how much/many?) Claymores x 100 years
or
47+ (how much/many?) Claymores x 14 Eras

therefore any number value other than what's shown in the manga content, is 100% speculation on your (or anyone's) part.

***for what the manga content is given as = see the link above in this post***

jamie95403
March 06, 2011, 05:28 AM
Thank you for list. I left out a number of warriors' deaths. The real total is even higher than I thought.

Your list doesn't mention the 29 awakened, unnamed warriors that Riffle created (and presumably had Duff killed) in Scene 42. Remember Riffle was "harvesting" warriors to awakened for her army against Isley. See page 96 on the VIZ vol. 8, Riffle says "Thirty Awakened Ones and still no luck."

Revised list for death toll from Scene 4 through Scene 61:

Scene 4 (Elena), Scene 25 (unnamed warrior mentioned by Louvre), Scene 40 (Ophelia), Scene 41 (Raquel), Scene 42 (unnamed party member + Katea + 29 Riffle mentioned that she awakened), Scene 50 (Eva's party, 4), and at the end of Scene 61 (24 officially, though we know 7 survived).

I'm leaving out Hilda, Alicia, Beth and Rafaela, as they don't fit within our one year period.

If Galatea deserted right after Pieta, that would bring the total replacements the Org needed to 64 warriors that year. Not including other possible warriors' deaths that we weren't shown in the manga.

High numbers of replacements are needed simply because of the high death toll. Remember Extra Scene 4, where only 2 out of 10 trainees survived the final test? This is repeated again out in the world with the graduated warriors. And what is the average lifespan of a warrior? 3 months? 6 months? A year? The higher number, obviously the shorter the lifespan (except Clare of course).

Regarding your list in general, it's based on only some of the former No. 1s. It's leaving out Hysteria, Licht, Chloe, Sistina, Roxanne, Lutecea and Cassandra.

Wouldn't we need to add 46 warriors more to each of these No. 1s?

And given the fragmented history we're given in the manga, how could we even say that adding these No. 1s and their underlings would give a complete history of the warrior population?

But it is a beginning, so I do appreciate the list. I've learned much from it.

HegemonKhan
March 06, 2011, 05:54 AM
it's chapter 42 page 26 for online sources.

Riful is saying that Katea (the one who Awakens, who Dauf kills/smashes to pieces) is in the 30s rank. Riful needs a more powerful ranked Claymore to make a more powerful Awakened, as rank 32 (or rank 30-39) Katea is too weak as an Awakened.

Riful is NOT refencing how many Awakeneds she "creates".

----------------------

In fact, Riful UTTERLY FAILS to create an Awakened army...

Riful's EPIC FAIL = number of created and/or recruited additional Awakeneds = ZERO = LOLOLOL

-----------------------

well, we don't know about the new rank 1's Eras, except they they, the rank 1's, each died in their Era.

I only record what is known and/or reasonably known/sensible/rational
(this sounds oxymoronic... haha)

I haven't updated my numbers to match the additional 47 Claymores x 7 new Eras on the link's page yet, my apologizes... I'll get around to it at some point... if I don't forget, lol

my numbers on this post, are correct/updated however :D

------------------

well I guess we differ in how many Claymores we believe exist, then.

for me the max Claymores total possible created on the island is:

100 years of Org creating Claymores on the island / 14 Eras = ~7 years per Era (or to say it another way: an Era is ~7 years long)

~50 (actually 47) Claymores per Era x 14 Eras = ~700 (actually 658) Claymores total possible have been created on the island.

And, it's actually a lot less than ~700 (or 658), because 47 Claymores are NOT MIA/KIA/AIA after every Era, many Claymores survive into the next Era. We've only had three instances where half or more of the Claymore Force has been KIA/MIA/AIA off: Isley's male Claymores Awakening (Isley Era to Riful Era), Luciela's Awakening (Luciela Era to Rosemary Era), and Pieta Battle + other KIA/MIA/AIA (Clare Era to Clarice Era)

so:

658 total possible - (~40) from Isley's Era - (47/2) from Luciela's Awakening - 30 from Clare's Era = 565 total possible remaining alive

565 - 19 more = 546 total possible Claymores/Awakeneds remaining alive

658 - 565 = 112 killed/dead Claymores/Awakeneds counted thus far in the manga, hehe :D

--------------------------------------------------

P.S.

100 / 14 = 7

7 years per Era actually matches up well with the Claymore's aging:

Clare's
Elena's
Priscilla's
Miata's

my big problem however is figuring out:

the timelines of Ophelia, Hilda, and Miria in relation to Priscilla and Clare, GRRRRR

1. Priscilla kills Teresa and Awakens

2A. Priscilla flies off north and kills/eats Ophelia's brother, orphaned Ophelia is "picked up" by the Org and becomes a Trainee -> ranked Claymore (earlier in Clare's Era)
2B. Clare is holding up Teresa's head to Rubel, demanding to be made into a Claymore, Clare becomes a Trainee -> ranked Claymore (near the end of Clare's Era. Elena becomes a ranked Claymore AFTER Clare, so Clare has been doing missions longer then Elena has)

3. rank 6 Hilda and rank 17 Miria have worked together and become good friends.

4A. Miria has moved up to rank 8 now and is on rank 4 Ophelia's team
4B. Near-Awakening Hilda is met secretly by Ophelia (she lied to Ermita, saying she was going to pee), who rips up Hilda's black card and never tells Ermita about hilda nor Miria (who Hilda had wanted to get her black card). Also, Ermita talked about Miria's leadership skills to Ophelia, before Ophelia left to meet Hilda.
4C. rank 8 Miria is on her 3rd AB hunt, against Awakened Hilda along with Ophelia helping out this time. Miria kills Awakened Hilda, and nearly Awakens when she realizes its Hilda, becoming a HA. Ophelia reports this not to Ermita, but to Rubel instead. Rubel learns about HAs, from Ophelia about Miria.

5. Clare + Miria are assigned to kill a group of NYs.

6. Clare (her first AB hunt) + Miria (her 7th AB hunt) + Deneve (her 3rd AB hunt) + Helen (her first AB hunt) are on mission together to kill the male AB

7. Miria warns them about the ranks 1-5, and especially to watch out for rank 4 Ophelia.

8. Clare is on mission with Ophelia... and we know the rest

as you can see there's some problems in dealing with this:

who's been a ranked Claymore longer: Miria or Ophelia? when did they become ranked Claymores?

what about Clare and Ophelia in regards to them, did Ophelia become a ranked Claymore immediately (and rank 4, at that), whereas Clare took years in training as a Trainee?

jamie95403
March 06, 2011, 07:30 AM
Wow! VIZ and the online scanlation are having Riffle say completely different things.

VIZ translation: Riffle: "Really? Too bad. Thirty Awakened Ones and still no luck."

Online scanlation: Riffle: "I see... What a shame... That's what an awakened 30 amounts to I guess..."

I would tend to trust the VIZ translation more, as Wendy is No. 30 and Katea No. 32 (though this is not a recommendation for VIZ, as they can be dubious at times). I'll look at the original. I do find the scanlations often wittier, even if less accurate.

And it's not that I disagree as I simply don't know. I have no idea as to how many or few warriors were created during the 100 year period. I realize that 47 districts need warriors assigned to them. All I've been able to do is count the death toll during a time period (Scene 4 to Scene 61) and calculate the replacements needed to keep all 47 districts covered. But that's like trying to figure out what an elephant looks like, when you only have its tail. We only see part of the Org story (Clare's and her companions).

I still don't know what really constitutes a generation, or an era. But let's keep in mind Yagi may have developed the series as he went along (in other words, it didn't spring fully developed from Zeus' forehead), so we will always face continuity issues and info gaps.

So we must think for ourselves than trying to "agree." And take ownership for our own thoughts and dreams, which is far more important than being "right" or "wrong."

colonywars
March 06, 2011, 07:36 AM
Hello:)

I think that dealing with Claymore overall number is a little off-topic to the subject of this post :P But Maybe in training there is a time, when one Claymore pass quicker than the others, and We didn't know for how long individual Claymore need training to be ready for final pass, and than for how long they deserve to be promoted to higher levels starting form 0.

I mean Clere was always treated as 0, failure, 1/4 Yoma, since maybe that is why Her training was longer than Ophelia?

Maybe when there are already 47 Claymores on her duty, the rest of it, even when ready and after they final trial are in standby, and when highest ranked warriors die, Org make shifts in positions of ranks, and for promoted ones they release weaker one, to fill the number, and to start they true mission?

We didn't know, how many Claymores are kept just for that occasion?

Have a good day :D

PS. to be not soo much off-topic, I think that Rubel has his own reasons to act like he does, and what will happen with that it is all up to Yagi :)

But I think it will be the bigger surprise then Miria's Resurrection!

jamie95403
March 06, 2011, 08:41 AM
Please don't be concerned with being off-topic. Some here would disagree, but as long as your thoughts are really your own, that's all that really matters. And yes, I agree that Louvre may not be what he seems. Is he working for third parties unknown, un-allied with either the Org or the Dragons' Allies? Is he's on the side of the angels? We'll know eventually.

And I'm still hoping someone here will take the Father Louvre hypothesis (he's working for Father Vincent and the Holy City) and run with it. Also, using the Google Translator, it appears that in Scene 42, Riffle is speaking of poor Katea as awakened "case no. 30". The original debate concerning this was whether or not 30 Claymores were involved. And whether these hypothetical warriors could be added to the yearly death toll. The problem here now I realize is we really don't know if Riffle used 30 female warriors or someone else (like Dae does with awakened male non-warriors). Also, we don't know the time period. I'm thinking within a year, but it could be beyond that.

HegemonKhan
March 06, 2011, 03:53 PM
you know my view: Rubel's the real-true LEADER of the Organization! Muwahaha!

(Rubel is akin to Raz al' Ghoul in the movie Batman Begins*, pretending to be a subordinate of the League of Shadows, when he's really its real-true leader, and so too do I believe and theorize that Rubel is also the real-true leader of the Organization. Rimuto is just a fake-puppet leader, just like is seen in Batman Begins with that "asian guy" as the fake-puppet leader of the League of Shadows, intentionally set up by Raz al' Ghould himself. The deceptive leader of the deceptive League of Shadows, and so too do I feel that Rubel is the deceptive leader of the deceptive Organization)

*which is based on the DC comic made into a tv series some years back now, Batman: the animated series - I think - as it has the same/similar story/saga about Raz al' Ghoul being Batman's mentor and trainer, except in the comic's tv series, Raz al' Ghoul is the devil and immortal using the Lazarus Pits to rejuvinate himself, though the movie does hint at it with Raz al' Ghoul smiling and remaining calm as he falls to his death in the crashing "train" or does he actually die... hehe


-brief part of my rationale:

The Organization is a "Lion's Den of cut-throats/assassins/thieves/scheming politicians/sociopaths, who are just waiting to slit each other's throats the instant the oppertunity arises" as the likes of which we hope never to see in our real world- lol.

Well, if you have such a group, a "guild" of thieves/cut-throats/assassins... than sitting on a throne like Rimuto does... is just asking to be murdered...

No, the LEADER of such a group or "guild", wouldn't be doing such a stupid thing. The leader of a guild of thieves isn't sitting as a figure head on a throne, he's out there in the field, as that is what he is, the best thief/cut-throat/assasin of all time, not some "bench/throne-warming" figurehead. And pretending to be a subordinate is a great way to keep yourself safe from the other BCs

Rubel's out there controlling the entire island to his own whims, he's the puppeteer dancing everyone on his strings as his puppets. Everything that happens on the island is to his own design. Nothing escapes Rubel's control and manipulation. He's orchestrating everything and everyone on the island.

Rubel's the greatest of the Org's "dark affairs" nature, so he HAS TO BE the LEADER of the Org, hehe :D

jamie95403
March 06, 2011, 05:16 PM
So you saying that Louvre is the shogun behind the emperor Klimt. The overseas power behind the Org may well have secret observers keeping an eye on the Org. Louvre could be one of them.

Now, would this overseas power choose a ragtag group of pirates, or a disciplined group of experienced, special forces and intel-types? So far, I've only seen the latter.

As to Chief Klimt, he seems the stolid, prosaic bureaucratic-type often found in government orgs. The Org and its "staff" (スタフ, Sutafu/Sutare (Staff). Pronounced "stef" in Japanese) could easily fit with the various intel ops happening today.

"Lion's Den of cut-throats/assassins/thieves/scheming politicians/sociopaths, who are just waiting to slit each other's throats the instant the oppertunity arises" is more descriptive of Boss, Rig and the gang of bandits that Smiling Teresa wiped out.

The Org appears to me, at least, very professional, reflecting their experience on the mainland.

But I could be completely wrong!

HegemonKhan
March 06, 2011, 07:19 PM
the problem with the "Dragons" and Rubel being "their spy", is who's the ONLY source of this?

Answer: Rubel himself

how do we know Rubel hadn't made up this whole BS about Dragons and him being their spy?

How do we know that Rubel wasn't merely making this stuff up, to "match up" with Miria's rebelious nature towards the Org and her "conspiracy theories" (which are true, as the Org is indeed "Evil/corrupt"), in order to become trusted by Miria... so that he can control and manipulate her??? :D

"Become thee friend of thy enemy, and when thee is trusted, betray thy enemy and stab them in back, to get the most satisfying victory over thy hated enemy" -HK :D

-------------------------

Before the Org came to the island:

Staff, city of the far east (in Sutare, the eastern land of the island)

After the Org came to the island:

Staff City -> the Organization HQs

Manga:

Sutare, the eastern land of the island

Anime:

Sutafu, the eastern land of the island

-----

(manga) Sutare = Sutafu (anime)
.

jamie95403
March 06, 2011, 07:46 PM
Staff," "Sutafu" and "Sutare" are all translator variants of the same eastern region, スタフ. The VIZ translation of the manga calls it Sutafu, the scanlation Sutare.

The town the Org is headquartered is actually unnamed, though one scanlation named it "Staff." And as I last remembered, the English language dub of the anime series pronounced it Sutare (which in Sweden is carp fish!).

Personally, I like the idea of calling the town Staff and the eastern quadrant region Sutare/Sutafu, but unhappily, they're all spelled スタフ.

Same deal with Mucha and Musha (birthplace of Priscilla). Both "Musha" (Extra Scene 3) and "Mucha" (Scene 90) are spelled ミュシャ, so they too are the same place. But still, I wish there really was town called Musha in the southern quadrant of Mucha.

Blame Yagi and the publishers for not naming everyplace as well as for the sketchy maps in Jump Square. In one issue of Jump Square, on the map of the island, Rabona is placed in western Toulouse, while another map from another issue places Rabona dead center of Toulouse. One of the Claymores might have said Rabona was dead center of the island, though I forgot who. The Claymore DS Game Map agrees with the Scene 92 Extra Map, but that probably means little. Maybe all the maps mean little.

Though I personally think Lucky's hometown of Dega (Doga) is in western Lautrec, we should not discourage HegenonKhan and others from arguing Dega is really in Mucha or even Staff. Diversity of opinions, please!

I personally like Louvre and hope he turns out to be one of the good guys.

HegemonKhan
March 06, 2011, 09:41 PM
well, since I don't know Japanese, I'm stuck with refering to the english translations, and will continue to use them for a slightly different understanding of Claymore (Claymore, "english version", lol).

so...

Org HQs = Staff, city of the far east (its hidden/camelflagged in one of the pics of a translated version online)

Sutare = online transation = the eastern land
Sutafu = anime and Viz' manga translation = the eastern land

Mucha = the southern land
Musha = Priscilla's home town (though this is more shakey.. C vs S, lol)

But, thanks a lot for the Japanese!

Can you read Japanese and translate it to English or are you using software or whatever?

jamie95403
March 06, 2011, 10:14 PM
I'm stuck with US English too, but we can all compare the Japanese raws with the official VIZ English translations and the online English scanlations. Together with the Google Translator and online dictionaries, anyone here can piece things together. The translations on this website are also a big help.

I wouldn't worry too much about what's "canon" and what's not. According to Italian novelist Italo Calvino, his ideal reader is the creative sort, the one who can co-create worlds using the arts of others. So Calvino didn't care if readers changed things around in his stories to suit themselves. And I think Yagi would forgive us if each of us created our own Island World of Claymore. We're doing that anyway each time we read his work.

You should do some fan fiction based on your theories of Louvre! And feel free to name/rename and locate any locale on the island you want. The only limit should be your imagination!

HegemonKhan
March 07, 2011, 05:08 AM
Oh I'd like to!, but I can't write creatively/literary... sighs... :(

and when I do try... my stories are X-rated and brutal, lol ... (but again extremely poorly written, I do NOT know how to write as a fiction author!). I also write too directly... which is horrible for story writing.. lol..

-------------------------------------

you might be amused in an old wild theory I had, had in the past:

caves are often the scenes of impregnation in such medieval and/or like literature...

Rubel visiting... Rafaela twice in a cave... once to... father Teresa.... and again to father Clare....

unknown to Teresa and Clare, they're actually sisters, their mother is Rafaela (or maybe Rubel also "got off" with Rafeala' older sister Luciela too, and she's the mother of one of them, hehe), and their father is... Rubel...

I mean look at that scene (its where Rubel has come to "reinstate" Rafaela after the Priscilla Awakening incident) with Rubel and Rafeala holding hands! EEWWWWWW !!!!! SHUDDERS....

colonywars
March 07, 2011, 07:36 AM
Oh I'd like to!, but I can't write creatively/literary... sighs... :(

and when I do try... my stories are X-rated and brutal, lol ... (but again extremely poorly written, I do NOT know how to write as a fiction author!). I also write too directly... which is horrible for story writing.. lol..

-------------------------------------

you might be amused in an old wild theory I had, had in the past:

caves are often the scenes of impregnation in such medieval and/or like literature...

Rubel visiting... Rafaela twice in a cave... once to... father Teresa.... and again to father Clare....

unknown to Teresa and Clare, they're actually sisters, their mother is Rafaela (or maybe Rubel also "got off" with Rafeala' older sister Luciela too, and she's the mother of one of them, hehe), and their father is... Rubel...

I mean look at that scene (its where Rubel has come to "reinstate" Rafaela after the Priscilla Awakening incident) with Rubel and Rafeala holding hands! EEWWWWWW !!!!! SHUDDERS....

Hello :)

? Nice conception HegemonKhan :D But in that case why Clare ended being an Yoma toy with so powerful mother behind Her back? And in some reminiscence is mentioned, that Claymore can not have children due physical changes made in transforming process.
But it does not change fact, that some of them like Men companion :)

Have a nice day:)

jamie95403
March 08, 2011, 02:31 AM
Louvre acting like Rig would be most unexpected to me, but it's HegemonKhan's story and he should write it as he sees it. Think of it as alternative Claymore history!

When Louvre examined Clare's abdomen in Scene 4, he seemed quite clinical about it, as if a physician. Louvre does appear sexually ambivalent and not a raging heterosexual, macho-type like Rig. But who knows? Louvre always seemed to me like an otherworldly priest. His relationship with the warriors alway felt genuinely parental. He appears to have little or no ego.

Although both the warriors and readers have attributed all sorts of villainous intents on the part of Louvre, it's all conjecture as I've never seen any solid evidence from what's presented in the manga. Even this Dragons' Allies business is conjecture on the part of Cynthia (Scene 84) as Louvre never confirms it. Though he does teasingly invite the three warriors to guess who he works for.

As colonywars predicts, I think Yagi has a surprise in store for us as to who Louvre really works for. Louvre may prove the biggest red herring in the entire series (or not).

In the Spanish edition of Claymore, I understand that Helen in the Pablo Mountains confesses to have awakened while sleeping with a boy, but it's supposedly a mistranslation of the original Japanese text. I really don't see any sexual interest on part of warriors, though the Gaymore chart on another website is funny. One of Data Books does has a humorous cartoon showing Jean warming Clare's bed and Clare telling her to get out!

colonywars
March 08, 2011, 07:58 AM
Hello :)

jamie95403 I have nothing to HegemonKhan's version of Claymore history, I even think for a while, it was something quite interesting and I really like HK ideas and fantasies :) That is why this forum are something more, then some dry, useless discussion about facts.

And I am apologize, if I offended somebody.

But We must remember, that the main "Game Keeper" is always Yagi, and as I see, He is really try to make this manga as much real as possible, with physics, world mapping and behaviour of characters. I only have hope, that maybe He sometimes reads, what other peoples thing about it, how they are interpreting His story, and maybe He even takes some this ideas to reality, His reality :)

As You have in under post quote: "All possibilities are on the table" :D

Have a nice day :)

jamie95403
March 08, 2011, 08:33 AM
No matter what an artist does, no matter how elaborate a work the artist creates, we are still presented with only fragments of a world, full of gaps, which we as viewers must fill in to make it real.

The more we put ourselves into this, the more solid the world that the artist tried to create for us becomes. To do any less is a disservice to both the artist and ourselves.

And just as no one can breathe for us, digest our food for us, no one can truly think for us either. We have do it ourselves. We mustn't worry about what translation is more canon or not, or whose interpretation more correct.

While these things can be interesting to talk about, the only important thing in the end is how real we can make the artist's vision for ourselves. It can't be anyone else either, since it's part of us. Hege's Claymore world and yours are as real as anyone else's, no matter how they differ.

So keep imagining and dreaming. Your dreams!

(and don't take anything I say or anyone else on this forum too seriously---we're just funning with each other :-)

HegemonKhan
March 08, 2011, 10:41 AM
There's suggestive sexuality in Claymore, but it's fleeting.

Agatha is blatantly sexual, saying she'd let Cid/Sid mate with her before she "bathes in his blood" (kills him), and says that she has a "full" human anatomy for mating with him. Agatha clearly represents the "Countess of Blood", Elizabeth Bathory, seen here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_B%C3%A1thory

Claymores do feel sexual excitement/pleasure/euphoria when they release yoki. We got the male Claymores of Isley's Era or the "town Razing" males just implanted with Yoma flesh, who feel the sexual pleasure of the yoki, and thus can't stop releasing it, quickly reaching 80% YR, and Awaken into male Awakeneds. Helen, while the spanish mistranslation is funny as it does go well with Helen's personality hehe, actually said that she was like the males, she couldn't get enough of the sexual pleasure from her YR (not while mating with a poor human male, lol), and started to Awaken, but she somehow finally resisted it and lowered her yoki back down, becoming a HA from it. We also got "virgin" Clare, saying how she felt both pain and pleasure, when releasing yoki, lol.

We also have seen suggested sexuality by the NYs too, as a few Claymores have commented that the NYs have taken human females as "pets/toys". We even see this with Clare twice, getting "pounced on" (we don't know if it was going to eat her.. or rape her...) and again not getting eaten, being dragged from town to town by another NY, and at least physically abused... but there's the possibility of sexual abuse as well.

Teresa herself mentions about Clare being her "pet", so we can see that sexual "pets/toys" do exist from the use of such words being so well known and used.

Helen directly lets us know that (female) Claymores from time to time "finds a male human" for their "needs"... by first teasing Clare that Raki is her son (meaning Clare mated and got pregnant, well maybe she could have as a human before becoming a Claymore, escept she was still quite young when she was still a human), and than teasing Clare that Raki is her sexual "toy/pet", which PEEVED off Clare immensively, lol :D

Finally, we got direct evidence of mating in the lovers, Riful+Dauf, with Riful saying:

~"Stupid Isley, and his conquest ambitions, now I have to raise an AB army to defend myself, instead of continuing to be happy with eating humans, sleeping, and "sleeping" with my Dauffy!"

~"Hey, I can't let you kill my Dauffy, he's my man after all. He's the only one that doesn't 'break' when/from 'accepting' me"

and there's many more suggestive references as well.



my old wild theory about Father Rubel, Mother Rafaela, and Daughters Teresa and Clare... was just for fun... it's not to be taken seriously, and it's completely impossible in being correct.

jamie95403
March 10, 2011, 07:08 AM
Since you're into "outrageous" speculations, Hege, how about this one: Louvre is really a female! Is it possible to do anything with that one? How about Priscilla being Louvre's daughter? And the reason the Org knows little or nothing about Priscilla is that Mom is protecting her. What about Priscilla's memories of "Musha"? False memories implanted by Louvre to conceal Louvre's true gender?

I still like the notion of Louvre as a priest working for Father Vincent, but anyone is welcome to take the above speculation about Louvre being Priscilla's mom and run with it!

rcfalcon
March 27, 2011, 11:45 PM
Not sure how Rubel could be the leader of the Org since it appears that he is one of the main formenters of the Claymore rebellion. Why would he seek to destroy his own org?

The other points about his involvement make some sort of sense, but his being the covert leader and then whispering doubts into Miria's and other's ears just doesn't make sense to me.

HegemonKhan
March 28, 2011, 12:30 AM
think of the Org as a "Lion's Den". All the BCs want supreme power for themselves, and won't hesitate to "slit each other's throats or stab each other in the back". Well, Rubel no more wants to share that power with anyone else, than anyone else does.

-----------------------------

as for the "intrigue" of Rubel pretending to be a sub-ordinate and a "spy/anti-Org", I see it as the same as is seen/done by Raz al' Ghoul in the movie Batman Begins or the DC comic and its tv show series, it is made after.

the leader of the Org isn't going to be sitting on a "throne" like Rimuto does, no the leader of the Org is going to be "in the field" manipulating and pulling the strings of everything as puppetmaster, like Jigsaw in the Saw movie series. That's our Rubel, his "hands" are everywhere. It's like the Leader of a Guild of Thieves, he's/she's not going to be sitting on a throne in the Guild, but "out in the field", as that's what a thief Guild leader is, a THIEF! Rubel is the "Black Spider" after all, not some paper-pushing bureocrat and figurehead sitting on a throne getting fat.

it actually makes a lot of sense to me, as what better way to hide himself as the real-true leader of the Organization, than to pretend to be a spy "helping" (or rather I should say, Rubel is gathering intel, spying on, and controlling..) the Ghosts overthrow the Org, what perfect cover

a cop/FBI agent or CIA agent infiltrates a criminal or enemy organization by pretending to be on their side, pretending to be against his own country and agency/department

"A wolf hiding amongst sheep in sheep's clothing", and at your own peril, never forget that Rubel is a wolf, or rather... the "Black Spider", the leader of the Organization, the most feared and sinister and devious and cunning and manupulative and coercing and controlling of all the BCs at the Org, having everything and everyone on the island dancing to his strings as the puppeteer

-------------------------------------

P.S.

I've written more about Rubel, here:

http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2309737&postcount=12

.

jamie95403
March 28, 2011, 06:20 PM
In short, Louvre is the "man behind the curtain."

Like the Wizard of Oz and countless other films and print stories, the device of a follower/employee of an organization or group being the leader is one that many viewers and readers expect.

Not that long ago, I saw (or rather fast-forwarded:-) a film in which the least intelligent follower of a demon-goddess cult turned out to be the demon-goddess herself. Then there was an episode of the old BBC TV series, The Avengers, where the submissive follower of a sock-puppet cult was in fact the leader.

While Hege's hypothesis may well prove true, I'm hoping Yagi surprises us more. But if Yagi makes Louvre the man behind the curtain, so be it!

HegemonKhan
March 28, 2011, 07:00 PM
it has indeed become cliche and/or well-known/popular now to do so, sighs sadly.

though, think about it this way....

doesn't the antagonist/villain... usually have the same (or nearly so) amount of screen time as does the protagonist/hero (unless the antagonist/villain is delibritely kept completely hidden until near the end)?

also, Rubel knows too much and is everywhere on the island, having his "hands in on everything".

also, rubel strangely seems to be immune from any type of danger... from being able to talk himself out of anything (even a Clare who was hell-bent on killing his ass in Lacroa, not only talking her out of it, but even getting her to STILL DO what he wanted, LOLOLOLOLOL, Rubel... SCARES... ME!!!) to having NO FEAR whatsoever, and he's been in a lot of situations where he should be p... down his pants...

So, what do we have with Rubel:

Omnificient (all knowing, Rubel knows more than any of the other BCs, and he's everywhere too)

Omnipotent (all powerful, Rubel seem to have an "aura" of immunity from any type of danger to himself, from being able to talk his way out of anything and NEVER showing fear when he's in many situations where he should. a note about all the BCs, suggesting they're not human, you'd think a BC could be easily killed, mob-murdered in a town by the human townsfolk, eaten by a wild animal in the countryside, killed/eaten by a NY or an Awakened in the countryside). ALSO, he has a LOT of power or "Sway" with the other BCs (how is he not their leader, hehe. I can go into details about this if anyone is interested) !!!!!!!

Rubel has an incredible amount of "Screen time", in fact, he probably has more "screen time" than even Clare does, and thus making him as thee character with the MOST "screen time". He's been with us from ch 1 to ch 113 !!!!! (we know now, that he was even in the Teresa arc/chapters, secretly spying on Clare+Teresa+Prsicilla, unknown to everyone, even Teresa!)

jamie95403
March 28, 2011, 09:03 PM
Hege: If you take a creative writing class or two, you'll learn about narrative devices. It's been years and I've forgotten all the technical names, but one trick to keep the reader or viewer from getting lost is using a minor character, whose viewpoint you use from time-to-time in your story.

Louvre provides a sense of continuity from warrior generation to generation. He's sort of a structural glue to the Claymore saga. Though his presence helps complicate and forward the story, we may be reading more to his presence than warranted. But that's the fun of Claymore---interpretation, but it has to be our own and not someone else, though others can and will provide helpful hints to our own personal exploration. This is what this forum is all about and more.

So please continue, though, with your hypothesis about Louvre. Let no one steal your dreams, or thwart your imagination.

It's your Claymore universe!

HegemonKhan
March 28, 2011, 10:13 PM
oh, I'm aware of that, hehe:

(I'm an avid bookworm reading nerd/geek, so I know literature quite well, but not all the terms and all that stuff, but I know how stories work quite intimately)

1. if you wanted to know what early Clare was thinking and feeling: look to Raki! What Raki is thinking/feeling, Clare is thinking/feeling. Raki cried for both himself and for Clare at Elena's tombstone. Among otehr examples too :D

2. if you can't read the subtle body language of Deneve yet: then look to Helen, as she VERBALLY VOICES what she and Deneve are thinking and feeling and wanting/desiring !!!! (because they are one and the same, same minds, figuratively really!) :D

rcfalcon
March 28, 2011, 11:22 PM
OK, let's say Rubel is the leader of the Org. He has done more to forment the rebellion than even the Claymores themselves. He spreads intel to inflame Miria and others. He snoops into everything. If it's just a ploy to prevent power sharing, why not just covertly have some of the "higher ranking" BCs purged? He obviously can get the Claymores to do pretty much anything he wants, and while he had Rafeala he had a ready assassin. I'm sure with the right motivation she would have terminated a few troublesome BCs with no regrets.

The only reason I can think of for Rubel's inciting dissent is due to a power struggle within the Org. Maybe there are two factions and Rubel is really a good guy?! Could it be that he wants to shut down the yoma factories since they really serve no purpose other than to terrorize the country side. They're of no use in the bigger war with the Dragons. AB's can't be controlled so they are pretty much useless as weapons as well. I sometimes wonder if AOs couldn't be reasoned with and fight in the bigger war. They are always complaining about being bored, this would/could be a challenge they would welcome?! Maybe he wants to shut the whole thing down and really is the mole he says he is. The only thing is, what happens in the other war if the Org gets shut down? Are the Dragons really the bad guys? We really don't know anything about them. The Org's males don't win any good guy points due to their manipulation of the island and the needless deaths they cause. A truly professional organization would only kill when necessary. It really doesn't take much to piss off the Org and get labeled a traitor and judging from the destrution they wrought on the towns around Rabona, they will kill anyone or anything to get what they want.

HegemonKhan
March 29, 2011, 12:34 AM
well, Rubel might still need the Org's capabilities ("Factory-like" production of: NY, Claymore, sword forging, and Awakened creation) before he can dismiss it/remove it, should he desire to do so for whatever reason as the very leader of the Org.

though you definately bring up many of the problems I have as well, as it's hard to speculate why, as you pointed out. I mean, we really don't know much about the Org and its motives, other than what Rubel and only Rubel has told us, about this continent and its Dragons....

as for a possible way to explain Rubel being the leader:

here's one thing I can think of:

Rubel wants to turn himself into a "god-Awakened" or create an "ultimate army" to take over the world.

so, that's why he still needs the Org... even though he has no interest sharing his pursuits... with the other BCs... :D

rcfalcon
March 29, 2011, 01:01 AM
though you definately bring up many of the problems I have as well, as it's hard to speculate why, as you pointed out. I mean, we really don't know much about the Org and its motives, other than what Rubel and only Rubel has told us, about this continent and its Dragons....



The Org may not have its motives explained, but its methods are heinous crimes. It either kidnaps or creates orphan females for conversion to Claymores to kill yomas and other assorted beings they created and continue to create for no apparent purpose since NY's and AB's are useless in the larger war, if that even really existis. All we have is Rubel's word on that. It either kidnaps or creates orphan males for conversion into AB's for no purpose at all, unless it's to train Claymores and that is nebulous at best. They created AFs, which is really abhorent since they rob these poor folks of all their humanity. Are these rejected Claymore's?

For the barest of reasons, a Claymore can be labeled a traitor and executed. Towns can be targeted if they don't "tow the line" and get wiped out on flimsy grounds. The Org is not made up of nice men. With friends like these, who needs enemies?

I hope Rubel or Miria et al takes them down. Of course, he could make things much worse, but I don't think so. In his dealings with his Claymores, he appears to sort of care. I don't think he anticipated Priscilla's awakening since it did him no good at all. And although sarcastic, he's never callous like some of the others.

HegemonKhan
March 29, 2011, 01:19 AM
oh, yes, I don't think anyone disagrees that the Org is "Evil" and the CAUSE of all bad stuff on the island (even Priscilla herself, is actually a victim, a victim caused and created by the Org).

------------------------------------

however, someone pointed out a single "saving grace" for the Org to not be what I said above:

*IF*, there is another side, and *IF* it is even MORE heinous and wicked and "Evil"... than you can say that everything that the Org has done is justified... to avoid even WORSE cruelty/evil by the other side (should it win against the Org's side).

"the lesser of two evils" argument.

"doing bad stuff, to prevent or instead of having, even greater bad stuff happening" argument

--------------------------------

don't worry:

the Org itself commited suicide, when Dae took Raki to the Org HQs or the Lab...

if anything happens to Raki....

the TWO MOST POWERFUL beings (Clare+Priscilla) are going to be really PEEVED, as they both like/love Raki... he's their BF.... (well at least Clare's, I'll let others try to figure out if Raki is Priscilla's BF or not, lol. She's too ... insane for me to figure out, hehe)

The org's not going to like their WRATH, should any harm/death or mutation occur to their BF... hehe :D

"Piss off a [LION], and it can and will rip your head off!" -HK (LION can be replaced with whatever you want)

colonywars
March 29, 2011, 10:16 AM
Hello :D

I know who is Rubel :D

It is Yagi Him self, acting like a narrator to the story He is writing :D

He knows what was, is, and what will be. He does not need to be afraid of his own creatures, and He in that way achieve power and glory, also leads Us in to world of superstitions, discussions and gives (at least Me :p) a headache, when to many speculations and attempts to understand His "World of Claymores" are gathering at once. To then blow it away with some twist of events, which surprises more, than a thunder from the cloudless sky :)

And how to not love this manga? :D

Have a nice day :D

Colonywars, Nooooo! Now I'm having nightmares of my beloved author and artist of Claymore manga! You ruined my good view of him! Now I do NOT want to meet him in person... trembles... Rubel SCARES me, and now Yagi SCARES me! (just being silly/joking around, hehe)

rcfalcon
March 29, 2011, 11:26 PM
Hello :D

I know who is Rubel :D

It is Yagi Him self, acting like a narrator to the story He is writing :D

He knows what was, is, and what will be. He does not need to be afraid of his own creatures, and He in that way achieve power and glory, also leads Us in to world of superstitions, discussions and gives (at least Me :p) a headache, when to many speculations and attempts to understand His "World of Claymores" are gathering at once. To then blow it away with some twist of events, which surprises more, than a thunder from the cloudless sky :)

And how to not love this manga? :D


Have a nice day :D

Colonywars, Nooooo! Now I'm having nightmares of my beloved author and artist of Claymore manga! You ruined my good view of him! Now I do NOT want to meet him in person... trembles... Rubel SCARES me, and now Yagi SCARES me! (just being silly/joking around, hehe)


Dude!!! What an awesome insight!! I never thought of it that way, but it does ring true in some regards. What better way to tie all the various plot schemes together. A narrator/character is just plain genious.

colonywars
March 30, 2011, 07:07 AM
Hello :)

HegemonKhan, it was really not My intention to ruin Your admiration to Yagi (but those nightmares could be interesting in some ways :p)(Joke!) because I am also like His style in which He directing this manga :)

But if that superstition is somewhat true, then He is really a lucky one betweens all those created by Him beauties :D Also it looks to Me that Rubel is really above all that what is happening, like outsider, but He also knows almost anything and everything.

And if Rubel is really so scary? :p

Oh, YES, he is! Rubel scares me down to my very core! He can get people to do anything and everything he wants, he controls everything that happens. He's a super sociopath/psychopath on steroids. He's the greatest politician of all time. He has no feelings or conscious, he only fakes them when he needs to. He's pure evil. Just wait, you'll see (hopefully, crosses fingers), he'll be revealed as the leader of the Org and the main villain/antagonist, over Priscilla, as he created Priscilla having no fear of her, as he's even more terrifying and powerful than she is, hehe :D

Have a nice day :D