Fantasy Old Sarutobi vs Kakashi [Archive]

Ryoku

January 24, 2009, 09:54 PM

I think this is a pretty good match-up. Although the 3rd took on 3 kage level ninja's, I still think Kakashi has a good chance against him. Sarutobi didn't fight all 3 of them at the same time. For most of the battle Sarutobi fought just the 2 hokages. In the manga, Oro didn't even start fighting until after the 1st and the 2nd were sealed.

Also the 1st and the 2nd were Sarutobi's masters, so he should be familiar with their strengths and weaknesses. They could have killed Sarutobi if they wanted to, look on this page: http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/123/04/

The older version of Sarutobi isn't as strong as he appeared in that fight. I think Kakashi has a solid chance of beating him with his current skills.

Here are the rules of the fight:

- Both can only use skills they have shown

- The fight takes place in the place Kakashi fought Itachi the 2nd time

TBH, Sarutobi hands down. you can't really argue this fact, unless you're a big fan of Kakashi, and i'm sure there are plenty out there.

Oh, and about the summons of the hokages fighting Sarutobi.
It's not a matter if if they wanted to kill him, they were forced to by Orochimaru, their summoner. Therefore they had no choice and literally had to do their best in order to kill Sarutobi, and to me, it looked like Sarutobi handled that situation to the best he could and, might add, he did a hell of a nice job. I'm sure Kakashi would not be able to fight head on 2 hokage-level ninjas at the same time as the way Sarutobi did.
also, Sarutobi supposedly knows all of the techniques in Konoha...

PS. add a poll

Deviant

January 24, 2009, 09:57 PM

Kakashi's Dimensional jutsu would probably take Sarutobi by surprise. He's probably never seen anything like it before. Even so, he probably coudln't dodge it.

If Kakashi teleported a speeding missile into another dimension, I'm sure he can teleport a ninja standing still.

killbill

January 24, 2009, 11:08 PM

I voted for kakashi,sure sarotobi faced 2 kage's but kakashi is a man who can use a very wide array of jutsu..with his sharingan he can probably dodge all attacks(taijutsu)and finally his MS,there's no way sarotobi has a chance against his ms..also kakashi is much younger..

kkck

January 24, 2009, 11:21 PM

Well, sarutobi can just summon enma, relax and sit down while enma beats kakashi to a pulp.

Deviant

January 24, 2009, 11:25 PM

The reason I chose Kakashi is because they're both very similar ninjas.

They both use small range styles, use taijutsu similarly, and know a lot of different types of Jutsus. And they both seem to have the same amount of chakra.

This really is a good match up. But as the Assassin says, why be flashy when 1 focused strike is all that's necessary? Kakshi's God technique will be just that. It would bypass everything we've seen the 3rd do. I doubt he has anything that could block it, and I doubt he's faster than Kakashi in terms of speed. Plus, Kakashi has the almighty Sharingan.

DarkManSharingan32

January 25, 2009, 09:48 AM

I'm going to reserve judgment on this one. If Kakashi makes a comeback he's going to do so being stronger than ever before. I'll tackle this question after we know exactly whats up with the Big-Dog himself.

ryanzokuken

January 25, 2009, 12:14 PM

TBH, Sarutobi hands down. you can't really argue this fact, unless you're a big fan of Kakashi, and i'm sure there are plenty out there.

Oh, and about the summons of the hokages fighting Sarutobi.
It's not a matter if if they wanted to kill him, they were forced to by Orochimaru, their summoner. Therefore they had no choice and literally had to do their best in order to kill Sarutobi, and to me, it looked like Sarutobi handled that situation to the best he could and, might add, he did a hell of a nice job. I'm sure Kakashi would not be able to fight head on 2 hokage-level ninjas at the same time as the way Sarutobi did.
also, Sarutobi supposedly knows all of the techniques in Konoha...

PS. add a poll

the first and second hokage corpse summons were not actually fighting as their real selves/at their true level.

neither Sarutobi nor Kakashi could fight both of them if they were.

En Yang Ji

January 25, 2009, 04:52 PM

Oh, and about the summons of the hokages fighting Sarutobi.It's not a matter if if they wanted to kill him, they were forced to by Orochimaru, their summoner. Therefore they had no choice and literally had to do their best in order to kill Sarutobi

If that is the case then why did Orochimaru say "What's the matter...Do you intend to let the former hokages kill you bit by bit as they toy with you?"

Shaunlim

January 25, 2009, 07:31 PM

Well, let's give Sandaime some credit. He still took on 3 Kage level ninjas at the same time. Granted that Shodai and Nidai wasn't exactly 100% but there is also the fact that they are immortal. Sandaime did the best he could at his condition and manage to win against 2 and basically almost killed 1. Let's face it, Oro was about to die from the pain alone if it wasn't for Kabuto's drug.

Raizen

January 26, 2009, 02:51 PM

Of course the 2 hokages were no where near their true strengths. I doubt no ninja alone can take on full powered 1st and second hokage.

But as seen in the fight, enma is a beast that can fight equally against even against someone like oro. Kakashi is good but i don't think he can beat old 3rd at teh current moment. The old 3rd was a strong despite his old age. Strong enough to puch oro to the limit and fight 2 kages and seal them.

As for kamui, looking at the fight with the 3rd, u think the 3rd will stand there doing nothing. He continuously attacks back and forth and he can take quite a beating

Sarutobi for the win

KnuckleheadedNinja

January 26, 2009, 05:07 PM

Hard match up to decide but i will have to give the old man this.

En Yang Ji

January 27, 2009, 10:37 AM

Too be honest, I think Sarutobi is stronger in most areas since he can counter all the jutsu in Konoha, but I think Kakashi has a good chance of winning. Since Kakashi has the sharingan he can handle genjutsu, taijutsu and ninjutsu. Genjutsu and taijutsu could be countered and ninjutsu could be seen through and copied.

Then there is Kakashi's trump card Kamui. Kakashi can use it very fast, and Sarutobi has no knowledge of it, so it could possibly turn the tide of the battle. Both of there stats are nearly the same in all categories.

Unfortunately, it's hard to judge the 3rd's true strength, because he has so many jutsu he could counter with. In a battle with Kakashi the type of jutsu he would use could be drastically different. The 3rd was just using the jutsu he used against Oro and the Hokages to counter their moves.

In this scenario, I think Kakashi would win.

ninjabot

January 27, 2009, 12:55 PM

Sarutobi can counter all the jutsu in Konoha, but in Kakashi's defense alot of the jutsu he's learned has been from other nin while missions. Meaning he knows jutsu that haven't originated in Konoha (remember the mizu-bunshin he used against Kakashi? Kisame stated it was a jutsu from his own village).

That being said, pretty much every jutsu is just an elementally different version of a jutsu already seen before. If Sarutobi can counter a Goukakkyu, then he can counter a Suiryuudan.

Though I will remind you all of this: When Hashirama used that darkness Genjutsu, Sarutobi did not dispel it with Kai. He couldn't see through it. That leads me to believe that he is indeed susceptible to Genjutsu. Kakashi CAN use Genjutsu. Whether it's as high a level as that one, I dunno.

Anyway, I still give it to Sarutobi just because even with less chakra because of old age, he still pulled off more draining jutsu than Kakashi could over a long, drawn out battle.

Raizen

January 27, 2009, 05:15 PM

1-Kakashi's sharingan is going to help but not to the extent u believe, we saw how his sharingan couldn't help him get the edge speed wise against kakuzu so I doubt it would help him against the 3rd
2- Kakashi is up against not one but 2 opponents, enma is fighting as well and that monkey is a tough mofo
3- Sarutobi's advance elemental attacks are dangerous, capable of counter even the strongest water user to date
4- Gen- I doubt the darkness genjutsu is one u can just kai ur way out. U have to fight through it. That is why it is so powerful

Tsukisama

January 27, 2009, 09:34 PM

Though I will remind you all of this: When Hashirama used that darkness Genjutsu, Sarutobi did not dispel it with Kai. He couldn't see through it. That leads me to believe that he is indeed susceptible to Genjutsu. Kakashi CAN use Genjutsu. Whether it's as high a level as that one, I dunno.

When Sandaime was in that genjutsu, wasn't he trying to use the Shiki Fuuin? I don't think Sandaime wanted to waste his chakra on dispelling the genjutsu when he had already planned to seal Hashirama's soul.

Delbi

January 28, 2009, 04:31 PM

Well, Kakashi has improved drastically from part 1 to part 2, his hand seal speed is redic, almost at the level of Itachi, he got MS, and his stamina increased which is noted by his ability to use Rakiri many more times than he used to while also using other jutsu's and fighting for extended periords vs Kakazu and Hidan.

Vs. Orochimaru Sarturobi showed that he lacked the stamina he once had as noted by ANBU. In this case I'd say for once Kakashi would have more stamina than his opponent, the only other time he was able to outlast his opponent really was against Zabuza.

Saying all this, any jutsu Sarturobi uses, minus Enma and The Death God wouldn't give Kakashi much trouble. I mean he survived a combined A-Rank Futon and Katon to the face more or less and was pretty fine after in the Kakazu fight. He's also very fast and his Sharigan gives him a great advantage.

Enma, yes he is very strong but Kakashi has shown he can fight hand to hand with physically strong oppoents like Hidan and Kakazu befoe, his Sharigan and own reflexes add to how good he already is at Taijutsu, I don't he would have a problem.

All in all, the only way I see Sarturobi beating Kakashi is with the Death God, that was his only way of beating the Hokages and Orochimaru. Kakashi can't really dodge that.

Then again, since it was his sensai's technique if he realizes its being used Kakashi could use his MS to kill the old man before he got the technique off and targeted Kakashi.
[hr]

1-Kakashi's sharingan is going to help but not to the extent u believe, we saw how his sharingan couldn't help him get the edge speed wise against kakuzu so I doubt it would help him against the 3rd
2- Kakashi is up against not one but 2 opponents, enma is fighting as well and that monkey is a tough mofo
3- Sarutobi's advance elemental attacks are dangerous, capable of counter even the strongest water user to date
4- Gen- I doubt the darkness genjutsu is one u can just kai ur way out. U have to fight through it. That is why it is so powerful

Kakashi was exausted when he fought Kakazu mind you, he had already used 4 Rakiri's, his hand was still messed up from training Naruto, and he got the shit blasted out of him by Kakazu prior. Kakazu essentially wasn't fatigued at all since it was his hearts doing most of the work up until this point. You have to take into mind that he was also trying to conserve his chakra, so its not like he could enhance his speed or strength with it in case he needed it for later.

kkck

January 28, 2009, 10:56 PM

I still think enma alone can beat kakashi.

En Yang Ji

January 29, 2009, 03:06 PM

I still think enma alone can beat kakashi.

Possibly, but if needed Kakashi can just use Kamui on Enma, while Enma's in his pole form.

kkck

January 30, 2009, 11:11 AM

He wouldnt need to be in pole form to fight alone though.

En Yang Ji

January 30, 2009, 01:32 PM

He wouldnt need to be in pole form to fight alone though.

How would he beat Kakashi otherwise? Enma's great and all, but I don't think he can beat Kakashi alone.

Raizen

January 30, 2009, 01:49 PM

Well, Kakashi has improved drastically from part 1 to part 2, his hand seal speed is redic, almost at the level of Itachi, he got MS, and his stamina increased which is noted by his ability to use Rakiri many more times than he used to while also using other jutsu's and fighting for extended periords vs Kakazu and Hidan.
1- His handseal speed doesn't matter, not against teh 3rd, how do u think it will make a difference??
2- His stamina hasn't increased, he just perfected the use of his chakra. Meaning his attacks consume less chakra
3- He had shikamaru to help him bind them down. Kakashi is good but old sarutobi is better

Vs. Orochimaru Sarturobi showed that he lacked the stamina he once had as noted by ANBU. In this case I'd say for once Kakashi would have more stamina than his opponent, the only other time he was able to outlast his opponent really was against Zabuza.
Despite being old he was still able to cancel oro's ressurection attack by using the same amount of chakra, the shadow shuriken technique, doton, katon, 2 KBs, boss summoning, and tehn shiki fuujin. That is quite a lot of high ranked technique
kakashi does not have more stamina then sarutobi

Saying all this, any jutsu Sarturobi uses, minus Enma and The Death God wouldn't give Kakashi much trouble. I mean he survived a combined A-Rank Futon and Katon to the face more or less and was pretty fine after in the Kakazu fight. He's also very fast and his Sharigan gives him a great advantage.
1-Really? His katon and doton is not dangerous? The ninja who is known as teh professoR?? :notrust
2- Kakashi was never hit with kakuzu's attack, that was anime

Enma, yes he is very strong but Kakashi has shown he can fight hand to hand with physically strong oppoents like Hidan and Kakazu befoe, his Sharigan and own reflexes add to how good he already is at Taijutsu, I don't he would have a problem.
1- He is not fighting just enma, he is fighting the 3rd too. Not only that enma has shown to give oro trouble alone. Not to mention in his staff mode, he can send his arm out anywhere surprising opponents

All in all, the only way I see Sarturobi beating Kakashi is with the Death God, that was his only way of beating the Hokages and Orochimaru. Kakashi can't really dodge that.
Doubt it

Then again, since it was his sensai's technique if he realizes its being used Kakashi could use his MS to kill the old man before he got the technique off and targeted Kakashi.
<hr noshade size="1">
The opponent does not see the death god until it is too late

Kakashi was exausted when he fought Kakazu mind you, he had already used 4 Rakiri's, his hand was still messed up from training Naruto, and he got the shit blasted out of him by Kakazu prior. Kakazu essentially wasn't fatigued at all since it was his hearts doing most of the work up until this point. You have to take into mind that he was also trying to conserve his chakra, so its not like he could enhance his speed or strength with it in case he needed it for later.
1- Why would kakashi be saving his chakra especially when these two were able to take out both asuma and chiriku??
2- His hand didn't seem to slow him down at all
3- Its funny how u said that although kakuzu lost his heart he was not fatigued here and yet when I mention naruto u said kakuzu was at a disadvantage b/c he lost hearts. really, bias much??

Delbi

January 30, 2009, 03:05 PM

1- His handseal speed doesn't matter, not against teh 3rd, how do u think it will make a difference??
2- His stamina hasn't increased, he just perfected the use of his chakra. Meaning his attacks consume less chakra
3- He had shikamaru to help him bind them down. Kakashi is good but old sarutobi is better

Despite being old he was still able to cancel oro's ressurection attack by using the same amount of chakra, the shadow shuriken technique, doton, katon, 2 KBs, boss summoning, and tehn shiki fuujin. That is quite a lot of high ranked technique
kakashi does not have more stamina then sarutobi

1-Really? His katon and doton is not dangerous? The ninja who is known as teh professoR?? :notrust
2- Kakashi was never hit with kakuzu's attack, that was anime

1- He is not fighting just enma, he is fighting the 3rd too. Not only that enma has shown to give oro trouble alone. Not to mention in his staff mode, he can send his arm out anywhere surprising opponents

Doubt it

The opponent does not see the death god until it is too late

1- Why would kakashi be saving his chakra especially when these two were able to take out both asuma and chiriku??
2- His hand didn't seem to slow him down at all
3- Its funny how u said that although kakuzu lost his heart he was not fatigued here and yet when I mention naruto u said kakuzu was at a disadvantage b/c he lost hearts. really, bias much??

Handseal speed allows you to preform jutsu's fast and surprise your opponent, it matters a lot.

Realize what Stamina is. Kakashi is a man in his prime in top physical condition. Sarturobi is an old man. Sarturobi is able to use so many high ranking jutsu because like you said about Kakashi, he can manage his chakra better and preform his techniques amazingly thus not wasting any chakra.

Kakashi wasn't hit with the attack? How the hell did he lose his vest, gloves, headband, etc while getting all messed up? Kakazu even mentions that Kakashi was the first person to ever survive the attack, so obviously he got hit.

It's sad if you think Asuma was as strong as Kakashi, or Chiriku who we have never seen fight.

I said Kakazu was at a disadvantage because he didn't have access to his other hearts abilities, it had nothing to do with fatigue I wasn't being biased.

Kakashi doesn't have to see the Death God, he would instantly recognize the hand seals.

Raizen

January 30, 2009, 03:21 PM

Handseal speed allows you to preform jutsu's fast and surprise your opponent, it matters a lot.
Funny, when has kakashi shown handseals speed superior to the strongest hokage?? i'll tell u , never

Realize what Stamina is. Kakashi is a man in his prime in top physical condition. Sarturobi is an old man. Sarturobi is able to use so many high ranking jutsu because like you said about Kakashi, he can manage his chakra better and preform his techniques amazingly thus not wasting any chakra.
Despite his old age, his staimina is still greater than kakashi. He was able to pull out attacks after attacks that kakashi wouldn't be able to. Thus indicating his chakra is more than kakashi

Kakashi wasn't hit with the attack? How the hell did he lose his vest, gloves, headband, etc while getting all messed up? Kakazu even mentions that Kakashi was the first person to ever survive the attack, so obviously he got hit.
OK, the 3rd was hit with mokuton and was fine

It's sad if you think Asuma was as strong as Kakashi, or Chiriku who we have never seen fight.
I never said that asuma was as strong as kakashi. But the thing is if his buddy died by akatsuki. what makes u thin he won't enter the battle with anythign other than 100%

I said Kakazu was at a disadvantage because he didn't have access to his other hearts abilities, it had nothing to do with fatigue I wasn't being biased.
No u didn't

Kakashi doesn't have to see the Death God, he would instantly recognize the hand seals.
What makes u think he knows about the technqiue. The 3rd knew it b/c the 4th taught him it. And trust me, the 3rd won't hvae to resort to it

Delbi

January 30, 2009, 04:15 PM

Funny, when has kakashi shown handseals speed superior to the strongest hokage?? i'll tell u , never

The 3rd's handseal speed has never been talked about. Naruto even mentions that Kakashi's handseal speed is unreal. Even if the 3rds was superior, that has nothing to do with him seeing Kakashi's hands and Kakashi not surprising him.

Despite his old age, his staimina is still greater than kakashi. He was able to pull out attacks after attacks that kakashi wouldn't be able to. Thus indicating his chakra is more than kakashi

Have you seen Kakashi fight? He pulls out high ranking jutsu all the time back to back, he's very capable of doing what the Third did. Also, his chakra control and usage is just better, not his stamina.

OK, the 3rd was hit with mokuton and was fine

Mokuton is much different than the jutsu Kakazu used. Mokuton also hasn't shown great offensive capabilities unless it stabs something, and the 3rd wasn't stabbed.

I never said that asuma was as strong as kakashi. But the thing is if his buddy died by akatsuki. what makes u thin he won't enter the battle with anythign other than 100%

I never said he wasn't going 100% I simply said he would conserve energy, which is basic stradegy. You don't go all out for a matter of seconds, you have to plan ahead for the long haul.

No u didn't

Find me my post, I'm not looking for it. In any event, then I spoke wrong, I meant to say he lost the abilities of his hearts.

What makes u think he knows about the technqiue. The 3rd knew it b/c the 4th taught him it. And trust me, the 3rd won't hvae to resort to it

Kakashi's teacher created it, do you not think he won't recognize the hand seals?

Raizen

February 02, 2009, 01:18 PM

The 3rd's handseal speed has never been talked about. Naruto even mentions that Kakashi's handseal speed is unreal. Even if the 3rds was superior, that has nothing to do with him seeing Kakashi's hands and Kakashi not surprising him.
When exactly was kakashi's handseal speed commented on? i only remember itachi being commented on. Also, the 3rd has shown great speed too. u don't need to be commented to be great. Anotehr thing is that we have seen the quick reflexes of the 3rd despite his old age so kakshi won't catch him by surprise, he was quick enough to counter oro's summoning after using the shadow clone shuriken

Have you seen Kakashi fight? He pulls out high ranking jutsu all the time back to back, he's very capable of doing what the Third did. Also, his chakra control and usage is just better, not his stamina.
1- Ultimately it is how much attack u can pull out and kakashi can't pull out as many as the 3rd. Perhaps kakashi does have better stamina then old 3rd hokage, but due to his ability to refine his attacks, they ultimately balance out. Read iruka's explanation on stamina and chakra

Mokuton is much different than the jutsu Kakazu used. Mokuton also hasn't shown great offensive capabilities unless it stabs something, and the 3rd wasn't stabbed.
1-It did stab the 3rd, that is why he was bleeding. Moreover, he was brutalized by both the hokage. The man can take a beating
2- As for kakuzu's attack. obviously kakashi didn't take the full brunt of it. He just lost his shirt, he could have dodged most of it

I never said he wasn't going 100% I simply said he would conserve energy, which is basic stradegy. You don't go all out for a matter of seconds, you have to plan ahead for the long haul.
How does this help the case? Every ninja does this. They plan the fight and use attacks accordingly

Find me my post, I'm not looking for it. In any event, then I spoke wrong, I meant to say he lost the abilities of his hearts.
i already posted what u said. look back in my previous post. u basicallly contradict urself

Kakashi's teacher created it, do you not think he won't recognize the hand seals?
Doesn't mean he saw it. It can be argued both ways. And again, the 3rd won't need to use it

Delbi

February 03, 2009, 01:04 AM

When exactly was kakashi's handseal speed commented on? i only remember itachi being commented on. Also, the 3rd has shown great speed too. u don't need to be commented to be great. Anotehr thing is that we have seen the quick reflexes of the 3rd despite his old age so kakshi won't catch him by surprise, he was quick enough to counter oro's summoning after using the shadow clone shuriken

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/246/13/ Sakura comments how fast his handspeed is here. Sarturobi was an old man, and Sakura's body, more specifically her eyes, were in her prime compared to Sarturobi's who may be failing. He doesn't have the Sharigan, so I don't see how Sarturobi would be able to see what Sakura could not.

1- Ultimately it is how much attack u can pull out and kakashi can't pull out as many as the 3rd. Perhaps kakashi does have better stamina then old 3rd hokage, but due to his ability to refine his attacks, they ultimately balance out. Read iruka's explanation on stamina and chakra

Why shouldn't Kakashi be able to pull out as many attacks as the third? He used four Rakir's, a few Suitons, and was prepared to use his MS in the Kakazu fight, I don't see how he couldn't do what Sarturobi did. As for attacking quickly, Kakashi always acts quickly, he uses dotons to dodge shit all the time when it doesn't even look like he has done anything. And his chakra control is obvioulsy great where he can create a Rakiri in both hands without handseals.

1-It did stab the 3rd, that is why he was bleeding. Moreover, he was brutalized by both the hokage. The man can take a beating
2- As for kakuzu's attack. obviously kakashi didn't take the full brunt of it. He just lost his shirt, he could have dodged most of it

Take a look at the size of this attack. http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/334/13/ You're gonna tell me he didn't take the full brunt of it? How was he going to dodge it, he was in mid-air. He lost his shirt and his headband, and looked like hell afterwards, if he didn't take the full brunt of it I doubt he would look like that. He then immediatly does this http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/334/16/, the attack burns away his gloves and leaves his hands smoking. After fighting both Hidan and Kakazu he rips this shit out of him. http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/334/16/

I'm not doubting Sarturobi was not tough, because he was. But Kakashi has shown in the Kakazu fight that he can take one hell of a beating and still be able to use his MS technique, something that takes about a third of his chakra.

Doesn't mean he saw it. It can be argued both ways. And again, the 3rd won't need to use it

That's opinion, I think he'd need it fighting Kakashi.

Lemonadez

February 03, 2009, 08:49 PM

Sarutobi is old, even Orochimaru wasnt being serious at him until his hand was sealed LOL.

I say Kakashi would win, if kakashi can teleport a missile to different dimension, I dont see how Sarutobi can be faster than missile pain (asura pain).

Raizen

February 04, 2009, 02:40 PM

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/246/13/ Sakura comments how fast his handspeed is here. Sarturobi was an old man, and Sakura's body, more specifically her eyes, were in her prime compared to Sarturobi's who may be failing. He doesn't have the Sharigan, so I don't see how Sarturobi would be able to see what Sakura could not.
Ur comparing sakura to a hokage??? I hope u understand just how ludicrous that is
the 3rd has crazy ass experience and has fought many powerful ninjas.

Why shouldn't Kakashi be able to pull out as many attacks as the third? He used four Rakir's, a few Suitons, and was prepared to use his MS in the Kakazu fight, I don't see how he couldn't do what Sarturobi did. As for attacking quickly, Kakashi always acts quickly, he uses dotons to dodge shit all the time when it doesn't even look like he has done anything. And his chakra control is obvioulsy great where he can create a Rakiri in both hands without handseals.
1- Every ninja has to act quickly but the 3rd is superior due to his experience and such
2- Using 2 raikiri's is not hard. We also saw the 3rd use summoning to counter mokuton while he was taken off guard extremely wuick

Take a look at the size of this attack. http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/334/13/ You're gonna tell me he didn't take the full brunt of it? How was he going to dodge it, he was in mid-air. He lost his shirt and his headband, and looked like hell afterwards, if he didn't take the full brunt of it I doubt he would look like that. He then immediatly does this http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/334/16/, the attack burns away his gloves and leaves his hands smoking. After fighting both Hidan and Kakazu he rips this shit out of him. http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/334/16/
The 3rd has also taken a beating. What is ur point??
His hands were smokin due to the chakra burn of raikiri

I'm not doubting Sarturobi was not tough, because he was. But Kakashi has shown in the Kakazu fight that he can take one hell of a beating and still be able to use his MS technique, something that takes about a third of his chakra.
Same can be said for the 3rd

That's opinion, I think he'd need it fighting Kakashi.
And I am saying u are wrong. The reason the 3rd resorted to the attack was b/c even if he beats oro, the hokages wouldn't dissapear, that is why he had to resort ot it. If he was fighting oro alone, he wouldn't need it

Delbi

February 04, 2009, 03:27 PM

Ur comparing sakura to a hokage??? I hope u understand just how ludicrous that is
the 3rd has crazy ass experience and has fought many powerful ninjas.

Did you even read what I was comparing? Their eyesight, not their ability, their eyesight. I don't give a shit how good he was, there is no way to make your eyesight better in the Naruto World, Kabuto a medic nin still worse glasses. Sakura was young, Sarturobi was old, his health was failing and he was weaker than he once was, his ANBU said as much. All I'm saying is if Sakura could not read Kakashi's hand seal speed, Sarturobi would have no way to either.

1- Every ninja has to act quickly but the 3rd is superior due to his experience and such
2- Using 2 raikiri's is not hard. We also saw the 3rd use summoning to counter mokuton while he was taken off guard extremely wuick

In terms of acting quickly Kakashi would be better at that than the Third because of his Sharigan and superior body. And the Third has been sitting in village for the past twelve years while Kakashi had been an ANBU captain and active Jonin. Expeirence doesn't mean much in the Naruto world as shown when Kakazu and he was older than the Third Hokage. The whole thing in this Manga is that the young surpass the old.

The 3rd has also taken a beating. What is ur point??
His hands were smokin due to the chakra burn of raikiri

My point was that Kakashi did take the full brunt of Kakazu's attack, and that he could take a beating just like the Third and keep fighting.

Same can be said for the 3rd

I agreed with you on this point.

And I am saying u are wrong. The reason the 3rd resorted to the attack was b/c even if he beats oro, the hokages wouldn't dissapear, that is why he had to resort ot it. If he was fighting oro alone, he wouldn't need it

How can my opinion be wrong? It's an opinion. Orochimaru wasn't even fighting him for most of the fight, The Hokages were. If Orochimaru whipped out other justsu instead of using the Hokages The Third would of had to use the Death God to Kill him just the same. Orochimaru didn't even take the fight seriously until he realized he might die and immediatly went for the killer blow.

shinsengumi

February 04, 2009, 04:51 PM

Delbi

February 04, 2009, 07:00 PM

i'm really a big fan of Kakashi but let's be objective here.he still has far to go to reach kage level and especially if it's Sandaime,i see no chance for Kakashi.
statwise they are well matched;
Kakashi http://leafninja.com/images/information/stats/Kakashi3.gif Sandaime http://leafninja.com/images/information/stats/3rdHokage.gif
but besides Kamui,every jutsu Kakashi showed can be easly countered by Sandaime.we saw him dealing with Nidaime's water jutsus. for chidori,he must be superior on taijutsu to place it on Sandaime unless he takes him with surprise but i'm sure Sandaime knows every of his tricks so he will be well prepared against chidori.What is uncertain for me is only Kamui but if Sandaime can somehow deal with it,then Kakashi is done for

Well, Kakashi is extremely fast,and very good at taijutsu, and he has a Sharigan. I think the last thing Sarturobi would want is for Kakashi to get close. His best bet would to use Enma in his staff form or natural form to keep Kakashi away from him while he launches ninjutsu at him.

gfire2

February 04, 2009, 07:09 PM

En Yang Ji

February 04, 2009, 07:39 PM

i'm really a big fan of Kakashi but let's be objective here.he still has far to go to reach kage level and especially if it's Sandaime,i see no chance for Kakashi.
statwise they are well matched;
Kakashi http://leafninja.com/images/information/stats/Kakashi3.gif Sandaime http://leafninja.com/images/information/stats/3rdHokage.gif
but besides Kamui,every jutsu Kakashi showed can be easly countered by Sandaime.we saw him dealing with Nidaime's water jutsus. for chidori,he must be superior on taijutsu to place it on Sandaime unless he takes him with surprise but i'm sure Sandaime knows every of his tricks so he will be well prepared against chidori.What is uncertain for me is only Kamui but if Sandaime can somehow deal with it,then Kakashi is done for

I don't think it's that simple. Sandaime hasn't shown a jutsu to deal with the lightening dog. The doton wall probably wouldn't work against it, because it's a lightening jutsu. It's a fast jutsu, that can be used at mid range. Even if Sandaime was fast enough to use the doton wall against it, it would probably just bust through it. Then there's also the lightening bunshin and the doton jutsu that let's him dig underground.

Even if Sandaime can counter all of Kakashi's jutsus, that doesn't mean he will win. Kakashi uses deception to battle his opponents. If Kakashi gets a chance, he could trick Sandaime and take that chance to use Kamui.

Delbi

February 05, 2009, 01:50 AM

dude, my granda is 72 and he prolly can still see a needle in a haystack so wats ur point? just becoz ur old doesnt mean ur weak

That wasn't my point. If you read back through my posts, Sakura comments that she could not see Kakashi's hands and that his handseal speed was unreal.

I'm simply saying, that if Sakura who is young and in her prime could not see the handseals, why would Sarturobi be able too? The fact is, you can't increase the ability of your eyes unless you have a bloodline.

Even if Sarturobi's eyes havn't deteriorated, he would have no better chance at seeing and recongizing Kakashi's hand seals that Sakura, and woud be equally surprised by them.

Raizen

February 09, 2009, 02:33 PM

Did you even read what I was comparing? Their eyesight, not their ability, their eyesight. I don't give a shit how good he was, there is no way to make your eyesight better in the Naruto World, Kabuto a medic nin still worse glasses. Sakura was young, Sarturobi was old, his health was failing and he was weaker than he once was, his ANBU said as much. All I'm saying is if Sakura could not read Kakashi's hand seal speed, Sarturobi would have no way to either.
i read it, I just think it is complete bullshit. So just b/c sakura at a young age can't see kakashi's seals that means the 3rd can't?? U really need to work on ur logic. The eye sight of each individual is different. Saidame has vast skills and has fought with many powerful ninjas. He was even taught by the 1st and 2nd and the second has been the only one in the manga to do a 60 something seal jutsu with one or 2 handseals. Ur argument makes no sense whatsoever

In terms of acting quickly Kakashi would be better at that than the Third because of his Sharigan and superior body. And the Third has been sitting in village for the past twelve years while Kakashi had been an ANBU captain and active Jonin. Expeirence doesn't mean much in the Naruto world as shown when Kakazu and he was older than the Third Hokage. The whole thing in this Manga is that the young surpass the old.
1- Sharingan doesn't matter much if u are fighting against someone equal or superior to u. Look aqt the kakuzu fight, although kakashi is stated to be faster and had sharingan, kakuzu still caught him off guard numerous times
2- Superior body?? The 3rd's stamina may be dwindling but his speed and reflexes are still skillful
3- As for being hokage, everyone does that. That is the job of the hokage but there does not mena there is not time for them to hone their skills. Looks at tsunade. When we first saw her she was rusty in skills but now as hokage she knew she had to get into shape to protect it
4- And the yound surpassing old is really pathetic. Not everyone can surpass the previous generation. Only a few chosen individuals have the potential. Look at the white fang, kakashi has yet to surpass him, the 3rd has yet to be surpassed in strenght, the 4th in greatness and skills. etc

My point was that Kakashi did take the full brunt of Kakazu's attack, and that he could take a beating just like the Third and keep fighting.
He took one blast while the 3rd took numerous barrage of attacks from his fights and went on to create 2 KBs

How can my opinion be wrong? It's an opinion. Orochimaru wasn't even fighting him for most of the fight, The Hokages were. If Orochimaru whipped out other justsu instead of using the Hokages The Third would of had to use the Death God to Kill him just the same. Orochimaru didn't even take the fight seriously until he realized he might die and immediatly went for the killer blow.
In order to mantain his jutsu he needed to concentrate. It was not that he didn't want to join in it was b/c he had his hands full.
From the 3rd's quote he could kill oro but even if he kill him his summons would not go away so the 3rd had to use the seal to take them all out

Delbi

February 10, 2009, 02:35 PM

i read it, I just think it is complete bullshit. So just b/c sakura at a young age can't see kakashi's seals that means the 3rd can't?? U really need to work on ur logic. The eye sight of each individual is different. Saidame has vast skills and has fought with many powerful ninjas. He was even taught by the 1st and 2nd and the second has been the only one in the manga to do a 60 something seal jutsu with one or 2 handseals. Ur argument makes no sense whatsoever

And everything you just said has no bearing on how well his eyes work and how good his ability at seeing things are. You need to work on your logic, your ability to fight and use jutsu has no baring on your eyesight.

1- Sharingan doesn't matter much if u are fighting against someone equal or superior to u. Look aqt the kakuzu fight, although kakashi is stated to be faster and had sharingan, kakuzu still caught him off guard numerous times
2- Superior body?? The 3rd's stamina may be dwindling but his speed and reflexes are still skillful
3- As for being hokage, everyone does that. That is the job of the hokage but there does not mena there is not time for them to hone their skills. Looks at tsunade. When we first saw her she was rusty in skills but now as hokage she knew she had to get into shape to protect it
4- And the yound surpassing old is really pathetic. Not everyone can surpass the previous generation. Only a few chosen individuals have the potential. Look at the white fang, kakashi has yet to surpass him, the 3rd has yet to be surpassed in strenght, the 4th in greatness and skills. etc

1. Kakashi was fighting more than one opponent the entire time vs Kakazu and Hidan, and then he had to deal with Kakazu and his hearts. His was a disadvantage the entire time, and since he we don't know how he got caught we really can't say anything. Not to mention he was injured.
2. I never once said that Sarturobi wasn't skillful, I simply said Kakashi who is younger and in his prime has a superior body to work with.
3. I was simply saying that to further back the point that experiene doesn't mean much when two guys like them fight. Also Tsuande was younger than Sarturobi and had to refine her skills to be a good Hokage. And it wasn't as much of refining her skills as it was breaking the mental trauma she was under.
4. How is the young surpassing the old pathetic? Its one of the themes of the Manga.

He took one blast while the 3rd took numerous barrage of attacks from his fights and went on to create 2 KBs

I'd say that one blast was more powerful than anything the 3rd was hit with, and that wasn't the only time Kakashi was injured in the whole fight.

In order to mantain his jutsu he needed to concentrate. It was not that he didn't want to join in it was b/c he had his hands full.
From the 3rd's quote he could kill oro but even if he kill him his summons would not go away so the 3rd had to use the seal to take them all out

I'm pretty sure once they were summoned he didn't need to do anything. Where was it stated he need to concentrate after they were summoned?

If he could of killed him, why didn't he try immediatly then when the fight started? I also don't remeber him saying that, I could be wrong seeing as how I haven't read the chapter in forever but I don't remeber him saying he could of killed him.

Raizen

February 10, 2009, 05:09 PM

And everything you just said has no bearing on how well his eyes work and how good his ability at seeing things are. You need to work on your logic, your ability to fight and use jutsu has no baring on your eyesight.
Ok, then prove me wrong. prove to me that the 3rd can't see kakashi's handseals. Prove to me that sakura has better eyes then the 3rd

1. Kakashi was fighting more than one opponent the entire time vs Kakazu and Hidan, and then he had to deal with Kakazu and his hearts. His was a disadvantage the entire time, and since he we don't know how he got caught we really can't say anything. Not to mention he was injured.
2. I never once said that Sarturobi wasn't skillful, I simply said Kakashi who is younger and in his prime has a superior body to work with.
3. I was simply saying that to further back the point that experiene doesn't mean much when two guys like them fight. Also Tsuande was younger than Sarturobi and had to refine her skills to be a good Hokage. And it wasn't as much of refining her skills as it was breaking the mental trauma she was under.
4. How is the young surpassing the old pathetic? Its one of the themes of the Manga.
1- He was fighting multiple opponents. So what the 3rd fought 3 opponents of which 2 are hokages
2- Kakashi may be in his prime but that does not mean his skills are remotely close to the 3rd
3- tsunade had to refine her skills b/c she spent time gambling and not caring about fights. The 3rd had to refine his skills b/c that is the job of the hokage
4- Ur taking that statement too far. If u stick by that statement then kakashi must have already surpassed his father but he has not. Konoha's white fang is even stronger than the sannins and kakshi is not even on their level so ur argument fails

I'd say that one blast was more powerful than anything the 3rd was hit with, and that wasn't the only time Kakashi was injured in the whole fight.
This is ridiculous, kakashi got hit b/c he was not skillful enough to doge them all. What is ur point.
The 3rd was able to avoid lethal attacks while fighting 3 enemies so it shows he is more skillful

I'm pretty sure once they were summoned he didn't need to do anything. Where was it stated he need to concentrate after they were summoned?
If oro had entered, he would be caught in the blast of suiton and mokuton. Not smart. It was the battle of the kages and oro didn't want to get caught in the crossfire

If he could of killed him, why didn't he try immediatly then when the fight started? I also don't remeber him saying that, I could be wrong seeing as how I haven't read the chapter in forever but I don't remeber him saying he could of killed him.
Oro started the fight with the summonings. Once they were summoned, the only way to beat them was to seal them. Hence shiki fuujin. It was not teh 3rd couldn't beat oro. it was that even if he did the summons would still be there. Enma stated that the 3rd could kill oro if he wanted to

Belisar

February 10, 2009, 05:11 PM

the stupidest thread ever. the strongest kage vs a jounin.... LOL

I think this is a pretty good match-up. Although the 3rd took on 3 kage level ninja's, I still think Kakashi has a good chance against him. Sarutobi didn't fight all 3 of them at the same time. For most of the battle Sarutobi fought just the 2 hokages. In the manga, Oro didn't even start fighting until after the 1st and the 2nd were sealed.
LOL? ó_Ò

what's next? konohamaru vs jiraiya?

Raizen

February 10, 2009, 05:18 PM

the stupidest thread ever. the strongest kage vs a jounin.... LOL

LOL? ó_Ò

what's next? konohamaru vs jiraiya?
Seriously, yet some people think that kakashi stands a chance

Belisar

February 10, 2009, 05:35 PM

Seriously, yet some people think that kakashi stands a chance
those people should read the manga again.

En Yang Ji

February 10, 2009, 06:11 PM

the stupidest thread ever. the strongest kage vs a jounin.... LOL

LOL? ó_Ò

what's next? konohamaru vs jiraiya?

While what the 3rd did as an old man is impressive, he's wasn't as strong as he appeared.

This is what happened during his battle with the hokages:

1. Sarutobi uses fire jutsu
2. The 2nd blocks with water jutsu
3. The second attacks with water jutsu
4. Sarutobi blocks with doton
5. The first uses Mokuton jutsu
6. The 3rd prepares for it, and uses Enma to counter.
7. Sarutobi attacks the 1st and the 2nd with Enma, than attacks Oro.
8. The 2 hokages kick Sarutobi back, while Sarutobi places explosive tages on their legs.
9. The 1st uses darkness genjutsu (at this point Sarutobi should have lost).
10. Sarutobi uses Shiki Fuuin on the Hokages and then Oro.

Most of the battle, was just the 3rd countering and defending against one jutsu at a time. Up until number 5 Kakashi can do something similar. Mokuton would be something he couldn't deal with. Also it's possible Kakashi could cancel the darkness genjutsu.

Just because the 3rd was able to do a decent job of fighting the 2 hokages, doesn't mean Kakashi couldn't beat him. Kakashi doesn't have to be able to do same, as long as he has the jutsu and intelligence to beat Sarutobi.

shinsengumi

February 10, 2009, 07:45 PM

Delbi

February 10, 2009, 09:03 PM

Ok, then prove me wrong. prove to me that the 3rd can't see kakashi's handseals. Prove to me that sakura has better eyes then the 3rd

Prove to me that Sarturobi has better eyes than Sakuras. She's younger, its pure logic that her eyes may be better than his, and in any event, if they are the same he wouldn't be able to see the jutsu's either.

1- He was fighting multiple opponents. So what the 3rd fought 3 opponents of which 2 are hokages
2- Kakashi may be in his prime but that does not mean his skills are remotely close to the 3rd
3- tsunade had to refine her skills b/c she spent time gambling and not caring about fights. The 3rd had to refine his skills b/c that is the job of the hokage
4- Ur taking that statement too far. If u stick by that statement then kakashi must have already surpassed his father but he has not. Konoha's white fang is even stronger than the sannins and kakshi is not even on their level so ur argument fails

1. Kakashi fought someone who fought the first Hokage and walked away to talk about it, Hidan was immortal, and then there was the hearts. Sarturobi had Enma, Kakashi had Shikamaru who left, and then theres the useless peices of shit called Ino and Chouji who were no help. For the wide majority of the fight Kakashi was fighting alone/protecting people, while Sarturobi was concentrating on killing Orochimaru and not dying.
2. Actually, according to the data book Kakashi's skills are equal too or damn welll near Sarturobi's. And I wasn't talking about skills, I was talking about his physical ability.
4. How am I taking that statement too far? It's one of the main themes of the manga. Kakashi has room for improvment, he has more to learn if he lives, he could surpass his father in the future. Thats like saying that J-man or Orochimaru didn't get more powerful from the age of 30 to 40.

This is ridiculous, kakashi got hit b/c he was not skillful enough to doge them all. What is ur point.
The 3rd was able to avoid lethal attacks while fighting 3 enemies so it shows he is more skillful

Um, Kakashi was fighting against a guy who if he even drew a drop of his blood would mean Kakashi would die, and then Kakazu comes from behind him and nukes both of them while they were in mid air, how is he supposed to dodge that?

If oro had entered, he would be caught in the blast of suiton and mokuton. Not smart. It was the battle of the kages and oro didn't want to get caught in the crossfire

So your telling me he couldn't of snuck up behind him or used a snake jutsu to bind Sarturobi to help the Kages?

Oro started the fight with the summonings. Once they were summoned, the only way to beat them was to seal them. Hence shiki fuujin. It was not teh 3rd couldn't beat oro. it was that even if he did the summons would still be there. Enma stated that the 3rd could kill oro if he wanted to

What could he kill him with? Orochimaru has proved that it takes a lot to kill him, the only two things that have shown the potential to kill him are Shiki Fuujin and Sussano. What could of killed him aside from Shiki Fuujin in this fight?

En Yang Ji

February 10, 2009, 09:46 PM

i believe it's really completely wrong to state "only the jutsus we have seen so far" as a rule.kakashi had sooooo much more screenplay than the Sandaime did.we saw about 20 jutsus from kakashi while we saw barely 5 from Sandaime.yes,maybe it was to cut future assumptions out of arguement but sometimes it's not wrong to assume some clear things.i can easly vote for "i'm sure sandaime can easly block any jutsu(besides kamui) kakashi casts,but now we're unable to say that.what if kakashi uses a raiton jutsu?sandaime can do nothing because we saw nothing of him doing something against raiton.imo this is the weak and the mistaken point of the rule.sandaime is deadly handicapped.
regardless of the circumstances,just a kage bunshin+shiki fuujin combo can be enough for any opponent.you must not forget that,Sandaime has more info and better analyzes on kakashi than kakashi has on him.Kakashi can stand as a great opponent for every shinobi in the narutoverse but in the end,he can't defeat most of these uber elit ninjas.

-Unfortunately, there's not much to go on. Even if we assume that Sarutobi could counter all of Kakashi's jutsu, we don't know the specifics of all the jutsu he would use to counter. The jutsus Sarutobi uses to counter, could cost a lot chakra or leave him vulnerable. It's possible, Kakashi may have a large number of jutsu that Sarutobi can't counter. Kakashi could have copied most of his jutsu from enemy ninja from other places.

-They both have a ton of jutsu, but we don't know what the majority of them are or how they work.

-Kakashi wouldn't give Sarutobi the time to prepare Shiki fuuin

shinsengumi

February 10, 2009, 10:11 PM

kakasi wouldn't give Sandaime the time to prepare Shiki fuujin as Sandaime wouldn't give Kakashi the time to prepare Kamui.if we take these 2 out of consideration,sandaime doesn't have any other finishing jutsu as we saw him cast but kakashi still has chidori,rasengan and suiryuudan.that's why i say sandaime is utterly handicapped.
i'm definitely sure that Sandaime owns Kakashi but i can't back it up with any actual proof because we just saw him casting a few defensive jutsus and that's all..imo this is not a good match up because if you'll say "only the jutsus we have seen so far" you have to choose chars. that have equal screenplay.

Raizen

February 11, 2009, 02:23 PM

Prove to me that Sarturobi has better eyes than Sakuras. She's younger, its pure logic that her eyes may be better than his, and in any event, if they are the same he wouldn't be able to see the jutsu's either.
U stated that sakura's eyes are better than saidame so u are the one that needs to prove it not me. U ASSUME that kakashi's handseals are too fast for a greta hokage to see. pure assumptions

1. Kakashi fought someone who fought the first Hokage and walked away to talk about it, Hidan was immortal, and then there was the hearts. Sarturobi had Enma, Kakashi had Shikamaru who left, and then theres the useless peices of shit called Ino and Chouji who were no help. For the wide majority of the fight Kakashi was fighting alone/protecting people, while Sarturobi was concentrating on killing Orochimaru and not dying.
2. Actually, according to the data book Kakashi's skills are equal too or damn welll near Sarturobi's. And I wasn't talking about skills, I was talking about his physical ability.
4. How am I taking that statement too far? It's one of the main themes of the manga. Kakashi has room for improvment, he has more to learn if he lives, he could surpass his father in the future. Thats like saying that J-man or Orochimaru didn't get more powerful from the age of 30 to 40.
1- Kakuzu had his ass handed to him. What do u think the 1st would lleave the village to pursue him?? Hidan is not veery skilled,the only thing he got going for him is his immortality, shikamaru showed that.
Kakashi was given multiple chances to attack by shikamaru. Without shikamaru, kakashi wouldn't have been able to land a hit. He was helpless, if u don't believe it go read the fight again. The 3rd was emotionally conflicted about oro, do u really think he had his head in the battle for most of the fight?? No, that is why he left himself open so many times: against oro's summonings, mokuton, etc
2- Yes, a young in peak kakashi is comparable to a old decrepit 3rd. It goes to show just how strong the 3rd is. Moreover, the 3rd can counter anything kakashi throws at him
3- That is a moot point b/c we are talking about current kakashi

Um, Kakashi was fighting against a guy who if he even drew a drop of his blood would mean Kakashi would die, and then Kakazu comes from behind him and nukes both of them while they were in mid air, how is he supposed to dodge that?
So kakashi fought 2 ninjas, the 3rd fought 3, and each of them stronger than anyone kakashi fought

So your telling me he couldn't of snuck up behind him or used a snake jutsu to bind Sarturobi to help the Kages?
The 3rd had enma, he was using high level techniuqes one after another. If oro entered, he would either get fried by the 3rd's katon, the second's suiton, or the 1st moktuon

What could he kill him with? Orochimaru has proved that it takes a lot to kill him, the only two things that have shown the potential to kill him are Shiki Fuujin and Sussano. What could of killed him aside from Shiki Fuujin in this fight?
Ur fucking kidding me right?? It was stated that the 3rd could have killed oro anytime he wanted but let his emotions get the best of him. What does that imply? he could kill oro currently, but he used shiki fuujin b/c killing oro wouldn't stop the summons
[hr]
@ kio, the 3rd wouldn't even need to resort to shiki fuujin, as I have stated he only used it b/c it was the only way to seal the hokages. Kakashi would die against the 3rd, even at the old age. The 3rd has vaste xperience, knows all the techniques of konoha and gave prime oro an ass kicking and would have killed him. Kakashi can't so that

En Yang Ji

February 11, 2009, 02:47 PM

@ kio, the 3rd wouldn't even need to resort to shiki fuujin, as I have stated he only used it b/c it was the only way to seal the hokages. Kakashi would die against the 3rd, even at the old age. The 3rd has vaste xperience, knows all the techniques of konoha and gave prime oro an ass kicking and would have killed him. Kakashi can't so that

-I thought it was a mistranslation, that Sarutobi knew all the jutsu of Konoha and that it was he knew how to counter all the jutsu of Konoha.

-It's debatable that Sarutobi would have killed him. Oro didn't even start fighting seriously until the Hokages were sealed. Also Oro won the battle between him and the 3rd.

-If you think the 3rd would win, please give a strategy he could use to beat Kakashi.

Raizen

February 11, 2009, 02:57 PM

-I thought it was a mistranslation, that Sarutobi knew all the jutsu of Konoha and that it was he knew how to counter all the jutsu of Konoha.

-It's debatable that Sarutobi would have killed him. Oro didn't even start fighting seriously until the Hokages were sealed. Also Oro won the battle between him and the 3rd.

-If you think the 3rd would win, please give a strategy he could use to beat Kakashi.
1. How exactly do u counter a technique, u have to know the ins and outs of the techniques. While he may not know ALL of teh techniques of konoha (like the aburame clan nara, etc) he knows most. And kakashi's raikiri is common knowledge to jonins or higher

2- He fought seriously the moment the fight started. i mean he did his summoning. He didn't do that against itachi or not itachi would be screwed. He didn't enter b/c he would get caught in the backlash

3- Anything kakashi throws at teh 3rd can be countered. The 3rd has enma and more control over his techniques and chakra. He made oro run away while evne current kakashi probably could not beat prime oro

En Yang Ji

February 11, 2009, 03:17 PM

1. How exactly do u counter a technique, u have to know the ins and outs of the techniques. While he may not know ALL of teh techniques of konoha (like the aburame clan nara, etc) he knows most. And kakashi's raikiri is common knowledge to jonins or higher

2- He fought seriously the moment the fight started. i mean he did his summoning. He didn't do that against itachi or not itachi would be screwed. He didn't enter b/c he would get caught in the backlash

3- Anything kakashi throws at teh 3rd can be countered. The 3rd has enma and more control over his techniques and chakra. He made oro run away while evne current kakashi probably could not beat prime oro

1. Sarutobi may just know the how to defend against all the jutsu in Konoha and not the handseals.

2. Maybe your right about Oro fighting seriously. Anyway, Oro was beaten before he could use Edo Tensei on Itachi. He wasn't fighting to kill and he probably didn't have any bodies prepared.

3. The majority of Kakashi jutsu's could have been copied from ninja of other villages, so the 3rd may not be able to counter them all. The only reason Oro ran away was Shiki Fuuin, and that was after Oro won. It's debatable whether or not Kakashi can beat Oro or not.

narutoschkraknives

February 11, 2009, 04:31 PM

Lemonadez

February 12, 2009, 03:20 AM

nice fight,the man known as the professor who knows practically all the jutsus in konoha and kakashi the copy ninja. i would have to say sarutobi he gots the chakra and knows how to use. But *VERY* close battle.

Kakashi would have win..
Knowing all jutsu in konoha doesnt make you a winner. Let alone Pain who have rinnegan and kakashi able to handle 2 of them. The down side of that battle was Kakashi have less chakra.

Sarutobi is limited to jutsu because his old and less chakra that what it said by those ANBU in manga. He's jutsu is strong but kakashi is always smart using kamawari. Even 2 Pain couldn't stop him so easily.

Sarutobi doesnt even move that fast anymore. Kakashi can just use mangekyo and teleport him to another dimension.

Sarutobi doesnt know all the jutsu or counter them. Sarutobi doesnt know anything about kakashi mangekyo or what is it capable of.

Delbi

February 12, 2009, 03:27 AM

Just a quick thing about Sarturobi's great ninjutsu. He used Katon and Doton ninjutsu only. Kakashi's favorite ninjutsu are suiton and raiton, both of which have an elemental advantage over Saturobi's.

My point, Kakashi is a ninjutsu specialist and could counter ninjutsu attack of Sarturobi's with one his own. Just another advantage he holds over the old Hokage.

shinsengumi

February 12, 2009, 05:05 AM

i see people really like to underrate the hokage tittle as if it holds no meaning.
the man who's very oftenly praised as "the god of shinobi" , "the strongest hokage" , "the professor-for his ultimate knowledge over ninjutsu" , "the man who knows every jutsu in konoha/knows how to deal with every jutsu in konoha"(both translations praise him greatly even though they have different meanings) . the man who defeated Danzou for the hokage tittle,the man who defeated 2 hokages at the same time while they were immortal.
kakashi may only have a chance if he can come up with a master piece strategy but don't forget,Sandaime also has 5 for intellegence according to the DB.
just because we didn't see him a lot in action,people aim to vote for kakashi who has one of the most screenplay over the manga.i have to say..for me,it makes no sense but everybody has his/her own mind set i can't deny

Oathencrantz

February 12, 2009, 05:15 AM

i see people really like to underrate the hokage tittle as if it holds no meaning.
the man who's very oftenly praised as "the god of shinobi" , "the strongest hokage" , "the professor-for his ultimate knowledge over ninjutsu" , "the man who knows every jutsu in konoha/knows how to deal with every jutsu in konoha"(both translations praise him greatly even though they have different meanings) . the man who defeated Hanzou for the hokage tittle,the man who defeated 2 hokages at the same time while they were immortal.
kakashi may only have a chance if he can come up with a master piece strategy but don't forget,Sandaime also has 5 for intellegence according to the DB.
just because we didn't see him a lot in action,people aim to vote for kakashi who has one of the most screenplay over the manga.i have to say..for me,it makes no sense but everybody has his/her own mind set i can't deny

Danzou.

shinsengumi

February 12, 2009, 06:08 AM

a little mistake, no harm lol :XD

Belisar

February 12, 2009, 06:34 AM

a little mistake, no harm lol :XD
no prob mate. it's confusing with all the hanzous, danzous and tenzous. :XD

Oathencrantz

February 12, 2009, 06:39 AM

a little mistake, no harm lol :XD

Lol, I weren't trying to be a smartass or anything.
I can understand seeing as there are a few people with 'zou' at the end of their name.

Belisar

February 12, 2009, 06:45 AM

Kakashi would have win..
Knowing all jutsu in konoha doesnt make you a winner. Let alone Pain who have rinnegan and kakashi able to handle 2 of them. The down side of that battle was Kakashi have less chakra.
jiraiya handled 3 pains and killed four and he was only at oro's level. oro needed two hokage and himself to deal with sarutobi. in the end he was nearly killed and lost the ability to use ninjutsu.

Sarutobi is limited to jutsu because his old and less chakra that what it said by those ANBU in manga. He's jutsu is strong but kakashi is always smart using kamawari. Even 2 Pain couldn't stop him so easily.
it was enough to deal with two immortal hokage and made oro cry in the shower like a little bitch which was raped.

Sarutobi doesnt even move that fast anymore. Kakashi can just use mangekyo and teleport him to another dimension.
like he did with deidara? :rolleyes:

Sarutobi doesnt know all the jutsu or counter them. Sarutobi doesnt know anything about kakashi mangekyo or what is it capable of.
he doesn't need to know every jutsu. did hashirama, madara and many other great shinobi knew every jutsu? no and it doesn't stop them from being great.

En Yang Ji

February 12, 2009, 12:04 PM

shinsengumi

February 12, 2009, 04:15 PM

En Yang Ji

February 12, 2009, 04:32 PM

He was already old when he defeated Shodaime and Nidaime in their immortal bodies.i would love to see how long kakashi might stand against those 2.
Tsunade and Jiraiya had to count him as a candidate because other then theirselfs,there are't many jounins strong enough for the tittle.kakashi is good enough because he's both strong and intellegent.who else can be? gai?yamato?some hyuuga guy or aburame or nara? or maybe Danzou :o they acknowledged him as a candidate because there is no better option currently. but him being a candidate doesn't equal being the hokage and especialy the strongest hokage.

The 3rd was able to deal with those two, particular shinobi at the same time. How would he deal with Itachi and Gai? Just because he can deal with the two hokages and Kakashi most likely can't doesn't mean Kakashi can't beat Sarutobi. Sarutobi just had the jutsu needed to counter those two ninjas in particular.

Raizen

February 12, 2009, 05:09 PM

1. Sarutobi may just know the how to defend against all the jutsu in Konoha and not the handseals.

2. Maybe your right about Oro fighting seriously. Anyway, Oro was beaten before he could use Edo Tensei on Itachi. He wasn't fighting to kill and he probably didn't have any bodies prepared.

3. The majority of Kakashi jutsu's could have been copied from ninja of other villages, so the 3rd may not be able to counter them all. The only reason Oro ran away was Shiki Fuuin, and that was after Oro won. It's debatable whether or not Kakashi can beat Oro or not.
1- HA dude that makes no sense? he doesn't know how to handle handseals?? WTF?? Sarutobi can counter most of the attacks kakashi throws at him, period. Kakashi's main attacks is raikiri and then add in some suiton and doton. Raikiri is common knowledge in konoha, doton can be counter with sarutobi's superior doton and suiton can be countered like he did against the 2nd
2- Oro lost to itachi b/c he was a fool that thought his genjutsu could overwhelm itachi
3- Again, from what we have seen kakashi's attacks will be cancelled
Moreover, shiki fuujin was only used to trap the bodies. Had the the situation been different in that if he beat oro then they would go away, then he wouldn't have used SF. Thing is the 3rd could beat oro, enma has said so

Belisar

February 12, 2009, 05:11 PM

He was already old when he defeated Shodaime and Nidaime in their immortal bodies.i would love to see how long kakashi might stand against those 2.
he nearly fainted under pressure of oro's killer intent.

Raizen

February 12, 2009, 05:12 PM

Sarutobi may have been the strongest hokage, but he's old now. Also, Tsunade and Jiraiya both acknowlegded Kakashi as a canindate to be the next Hokage. Kakashi is in his prime.
As shinegumi has stated, they only said that b/c kakashi was the next strongest. Doesn't mean much. Sarutobi is a monster even at an old age. Kakashi doesn't have the skills to beat him

En Yang Ji

February 12, 2009, 05:33 PM

1- HA dude that makes no sense? he doesn't know how to handle handseals?? WTF?? Sarutobi can counter most of the attacks kakashi throws at him, period. Kakashi's main attacks is raikiri and then add in some suiton and doton. Raikiri is common knowledge in konoha, doton can be counter with sarutobi's superior doton and suiton can be countered like he did against the 2nd
2- Oro lost to itachi b/c he was a fool that thought his genjutsu could overwhelm itachi
3- Again, from what we have seen kakashi's attacks will be cancelled
Moreover, shiki fuujin was only used to trap the bodies. Had the the situation been different in that if he beat oro then they would go away, then he wouldn't have used SF. Thing is the 3rd could beat oro, enma has said so

1. Sarutobi may not know the handseals to most of the just in Konoha, so he may not know how to use most of the jutsu in Konoha.

-What makes you so certain Sarutobi can counter most of the attacks Kakashi can throw at him? Kakashi has over 800 jutsu we haven't seen. If were just talking about jutsu we've seen how would Sarutobi counter the lightening dog, the lightening bunshin, raikiri or the doton jutsu where Kakashi goes underground? Also, even if Sarutobi can counter some of Kakashi jutsu, doesn't mean it will happen that way. Whether or not Kakashi jutsu are countered depends on how well Sarutobi defends against them and how Kakashi uses his jutsu. Kakashi may use his jutsu in a way that catches Sarutobi off guard.

3. I agree, that Sarutobi could have beaten Oro when he was younger, but not as a old man.

Lemonadez

February 12, 2009, 05:34 PM

jiraiya handled 3 pains and killed four and he was only at oro's level. oro needed two hokage and himself to deal with sarutobi. in the end he was nearly killed and lost the ability to use ninjutsu.
Orochimaru was playing around with hokage, did he summon hydra? did he summon manda? No right. He was toying around with him. Please take a good look at it again Sarutobi nearly fainted at Orochimaru killing Intent.

Jiraiya isn't at Orochimaru level, Jiraiya is clearly stronger than Orochimaru, Orochimaru is genius (brain) but that doesnt prove anything that Orochimaru is stronger than Jiraiya. Jiraya only win against Pain due to "Sage frog Genjutsu". Go read the manga again.

Its like Naruto vs Shikamaru. No matter how genius Shikamaru is, he wouldn't be able to win against Naruto.

it was enough to deal with two immortal hokage and made oro cry in the shower like a little bitch which was raped.
Yea and Thanks to who? Yondaime jutsu, what could he do without Yondaime jutsu?. Sarutobi cant even dispel genjutsu because his too old. Like they said "New Generation is always stronger than old generation" that the point of Naruto manga.

like he did with deidara? :rolleyes:
Deidara was even moving fast compare to Sarutobi. Sarutobi who doesnt attack first, he rather talk instead to attack his opponent first, that his personality.

he doesn't need to know every jutsu. did hashirama, madara and many other great shinobi knew every jutsu? no and it doesn't stop them from being great.That right he doesnt need to know every jutsu, Harashima was just a great shinobi because of his power, he posses other several biju and madara posses kyuubi. Of course they be great shinobi with all those powers?.

Raizen

February 12, 2009, 05:40 PM

1. Sarutobi may not know the handseals to most of the just in Konoha, so he may not know how to use most of the jutsu in Konoha.

-What makes you so certain Sarutobi can counter most of the attacks Kakashi can throw at him? Kakashi has over 800 jutsu we haven't seen. If were just talking about jutsu we've seen how would Sarutobi counter the lightening dog, the lightening bunshin, raikiri or the doton jutsu where Kakashi goes underground? Also, even if Sarutobi can counter some of Kakashi jutsu, doesn't mean it will happen that way. Whether or not Kakashi jutsu are countered depends on how well Sarutobi defends against them and how Kakashi uses his jutsu. Kakashi may use his jutsu in a way that catches Sarutobi off guard.

3. I agree, that Sarutobi could have beaten Oro when he was younger, but not as a old man.
1- True enough, but considering how he is known as the professor and the god among shinobis, I say his aresenal is muhc bigger than kakakshi. Either, it is not the amount of techniques that matter
2- Raikiri can be counter with the staff, sarutobi has shown to be extremely skilled in all areas of combat, 5 in all. As for doton, kakashi has not use a doton on the level of sarutobi. In the fight with oro he was never caught off guard, he counter each technique extremely quick
3- Enma stated that the 3rd could kill oro at any time

Lemonadez

February 12, 2009, 05:54 PM

1- True enough, but considering how he is known as the professor and the god among shinobis, I say his aresenal is muhc bigger than kakakshi. Either, it is not the amount of techniques that matter
2- Raikiri can be counter with the staff, sarutobi has shown to be extremely skilled in all areas of combat, 5 in all. As for doton, kakashi has not use a doton on the level of sarutobi. In the fight with oro he was never caught off guard, he counter each technique extremely quick
3- Enma stated that the 3rd could kill oro at any time

1.) Only in konoha he was once hail as "God of Shinobi" stated by Orochimaru on his PRIME. Sarutobi isn't on his prime anymore he also very limited to jutsu that why he mostly used Taijutsu.

2.) Who knows maybe its a Kawamari Lightning Explosion that took out Deva Realm and that lightning can travel from staff to its wielder.

3.) That was when Sarutobi on his Prime, but he didnt kill him back then..

Raizen

February 12, 2009, 05:59 PM

1.) Only in konoha he was once hail as "God of Shinobi" stated by Orochimaru on his PRIME. Sarutobi isn't on his prime anymore he also very limited to jutsu that why he mostly used Taijutsu.

2.) Who knows maybe its a Kawamari Lightning Explosion that took out Deva Realm and that lightning can travel from staff to its wielder.

3.) That was when Sarutobi on his Prime, but he didnt kill him back then..
1- NO, oro stated he was HAILED as the god among shinobis. Thus meaning known throughout the ninja world
2- I don't believe adamantium conduct electricity
3- No even at an old age enma stated he could have killed him

En Yang Ji

February 12, 2009, 06:07 PM

1- True enough, but considering how he is known as the professor and the god among shinobis, I say his aresenal is muhc bigger than kakakshi. Either, it is not the amount of techniques that matter
2- Raikiri can be counter with the staff, sarutobi has shown to be extremely skilled in all areas of combat, 5 in all. As for doton, kakashi has not use a doton on the level of sarutobi. In the fight with oro he was never caught off guard, he counter each technique extremely quick
3- Enma stated that the 3rd could kill oro at any time

2. Sarutobi wasn't caught off guard in that fight, but Kakashi's main strategy in battle, is to use deception. The Hokages only attacked Sarutobi, upfront with powerful jutsu's. Kakashi would probably take a different approach.

Raizen

February 12, 2009, 06:09 PM

2. Sarutobi wasn't caught off guard in that fight, but Kakashi's main strategy in battle, is to use deception. The Hokages only attacked Sarutobi, upfront with powerful jutsu's. Kakashi would probably take a different approach.
How so??
It seems to me like sarutobi was able to counter everything oro threw at him

shinsengumi

February 12, 2009, 06:10 PM

he also very limited to jutsu that why he mostly used Taijutsu.
i think we're not talking about the same Sarutobi Hiruzen.because the one i know is called professor for his genius over ninjutsu.
this is why i keep saying this is not a good match up because we saw Sandaime only once in battle and there he useded merely 5 jutsus yet people dare to say he's limited but kakashi used 20 jutsus so far and he seems(just seems)to have a larger arsenal of jutsus.

Raizen

February 12, 2009, 06:20 PM

mestizo311

February 12, 2009, 06:29 PM

Whether it be the young Sarutobi or the old Sarutobi, Kakashi would be soundly beaten. Even at his old age, he was still considered to be the strongest of the five kage's. As far as the number of jutsu's each of them know, probably wouldn't matter given that Sarutobi can summon Enma. Even with Kakashi's MS technique, this fight won't even push Sarutobi to his limit.

En Yang Ji

February 12, 2009, 06:31 PM

i think we're not talking about the same Sarutobi Hiruzen.because the one i know is called professor for his genius over ninjutsu.
this is why i keep saying this is not a good match up because we saw Sandaime only once in battle and there he useded merely 5 jutsus yet people dare to say he's limited but kakashi used 20 jutsus so far and he seems(just seems)to have a larger arsenal of jutsus.

Even if I said he could use more than the jutsu that were shown, how are we suppose to tell how those unknown jutsu would affect the fight?
There's no way to accurately judge Sarutobi's strength, when we've seen so little from him.

The best I can do, is make a few inferences and judge from what I do know.

How so??
It seems to me like sarutobi was able to counter everything oro threw at him

Depends on the scenario. Kakashi could use a similar strategy, to the one he used in Itachi's fight.

Delbi

February 12, 2009, 06:32 PM

2- I don't believe adamantium conduct electricity

Well adamantium isn't a real metal, but in the Marvel comics were it orginated, it was able to conduct electricity and was also highly magnetic.

Raizen

February 12, 2009, 06:34 PM

Well adamantium isn't a real metal, but in the Marvel comics were it orginated, it was able to conduct electricity and was also highly magnetic.
This is how I see it. If the 3rd who was caught off guard was able to do a boss summoning at lightning quick speed to counter mokuton, then he can dodge raikiri
[hr]

Depends on the scenario. Kakashi could use a similar strategy, to the one he used in Itachi's fight.
U mean against the itahci clone?? That fight was the way it was b/c kakashi wanted to counter itachi's genjutsu

Delbi

February 12, 2009, 06:37 PM

BTW, people that are saying that Sarturobi would have beaten Orochimaru when he was younger, this is very false.

Sarturobi had no way to get rid of the past Hokages except for the Death God, when he was younger he did not know it, considering it was Minato who created it and taught it too him. Sarturobi would of had the greatest chance of defeated Orochimaru directly after learning the Death God technique if Oro ressurected the Hokages. And I don't know how Sarturobi would deal wth the Hydra.
[hr]

This is how I see it. If the 3rd who was caught off guard was able to do a boss summoning at lightning quick speed to counter mokuton, then he can dodge raikiri

Perhaps, perhaps not. I was simply responding to the fact that you said Adamantium can't conduct electricity.

En Yang Ji

February 12, 2009, 06:39 PM

This is how I see it. If the 3rd who was caught off guard was able to do a boss summoning at lightning quick speed to counter mokuton, then he can dodge raikiri
<hr noshade size="1">

U mean against the itahci clone?? That fight was the way it was b/c kakashi wanted to counter itachi's genjutsu

It wasn't just to counter genjutsu, but to put Itachi in a positioned where he could be KO'd by Naruto

Raizen

February 12, 2009, 06:46 PM

It wasn't just to counter genjutsu, but to put Itachi in a positioned where he could be KO'd by Naruto
That would require another ninja who works independently from kakashi
[hr]

BTW, people that are saying that Sarturobi would have beaten Orochimaru when he was younger, this is very false.

Sarturobi had no way to get rid of the past Hokages except for the Death God, when he was younger he did not know it, considering it was Minato who created it and taught it too him. Sarturobi would of had the greatest chance of defeated Orochimaru directly after learning the Death God technique if Oro ressurected the Hokages. And I don't know how Sarturobi would deal wth the Hydra.
<hr noshade size="1">

Perhaps, perhaps not. I was simply responding to the fact that you said Adamantium can't conduct electricity.
1- If he was younger, he would have been able to stop all the summonings like he did with the 3rd coffin. Thing is in his prime his strength was unreal.
2- Hydra to me is not impressive at all. It is a summoning. That is it. He can just burn it down

En Yang Ji

February 12, 2009, 06:49 PM

That would require another ninja who works independently from kakashi
<hr noshade size="1">

Kakashi or a kb could have used raikiri on the clone. Or Kakashi could have charged up Kamui in the ground and fired when the clone was subdued.

shinsengumi

February 12, 2009, 07:04 PM

Even if I said he could use more than the jutsu that were shown, how are we suppose to tell how those unknown jutsu would affect the fight?
well it would effect the fight in the way that whoever has more knowledge and excels in overall ninjutsu, uses them to their higher benefits more efficiently.-->so "sandaime can block any jutsu* kakashi throws" is not a baseless assumption.it's not even an assumption but a fact if you ask me.
*kamui and shiki fuujin are off the case since i agree neither of them would spare the prep time to the other

There's no way to accurately judge Sarutobi's strength, when we've seen so little from him.The best I can do, is make a few inferences and judge from what I do know.

these two sentences cancel each out!!that's exactly what i'm trying to point out and why i say it's not a good match up.in situations like these,you must leave room for assumptions depending on the data we have

BTW, people that are saying that Sarturobi would have beaten Orochimaru when he was younger, this is very false.

Sarturobi had no way to get rid of the past Hokages except for the Death God, when he was younger he did not know it, considering it was Minato who created it and taught it too him. Sarturobi would of had the greatest chance of defeated Orochimaru directly after learning the Death God technique if Oro ressurected the Hokages. And I don't know how Sarturobi would deal wth the Hydra.
<hr noshade size="1">

so you assume when in the times that Sandaime didn't know Shiki Fuujin, Oro knew Edo Tensei and the Hydra jutsu?your logic is so wrong.

En Yang Ji

February 12, 2009, 07:28 PM

well it would effect the fight in the way that whoever has more knowledge and excels in overall ninjutsu, uses them to their higher benefits more efficiently.-->so "sandaime can block any jutsu* kakashi throws" is not a baseless assumption.it's not even an assumption but a fact if you ask me.
*kamui and shiki fuujin are off the case since i agree neither of them would spare the prep time to the other

these two sentences cancel each out!!that's exactly what i'm trying to point out and why i say it's not a good match up.in situations like these,you must leave room for assumptions depending on the data we have

1. How are we to tell who excels in the usuage of ninjutsu? Sarutobi didn't show skills in using ninjutsu that outclassed Kakashi, in his fight with the hokages.

-The problem with the statement "Sandaime can block any jutsu Kakashi throws" is we don't know all of Kakashi's jutsu. There's a possibility Kakashi has some highly situational jutsu, Sandaime couldn't counter.

-Kakashi could possibly get Kamui off. Kakashi was able to teleport an explosion away. That takes a lot of speed. He was also able to teleport the nail Pain propelled towards him.

2. There is room for assumptions, but there is no point in saying Sandaime could possibly counter all of Kakashi's jutsu, without anything backing it up. I can just as easily assume Kakashi has several unknown jutsu Sandaime can't counter.

TheChosenOne

February 12, 2009, 07:55 PM

shinsengumi

February 12, 2009, 08:07 PM

1. How are we to tell who excels in the usuage of ninjutsu? Sarutobi didn't show skills in using ninjutsu that outclassed Kakashi, in his fight with the hokages.

-The problem with the statement "Sandaime can block any jutsu Kakashi throws" is we don't know all of Kakashi's jutsu. There's a possibility Kakashi has some highly situational jutsu, Sandaime couldn't counter.

-Kakashi could possibly get Kamui off. Kakashi was able to teleport an explosion away. That takes a lot of speed. He was also able to teleport the nail Pain propelled towards him.

2. There is room for assumptions, but there is no point in saying Sandaime could possibly counter all of Kakashi's jutsu, without anything backing it up. I can just as easily assume Kakashi has several unknown jutsu Sandaime can't counter.

1-man come on..please...how can you ever have a doubt about who excels in the usage of ninjutsu? we're running in circles. i said " if you just look at that only battle Sandaime fought,you wouldn't know much about his real skills.you should make a safe assumption here that if someone is called the professor and non of the other geniuses are,then that one man must really be something else.it's also safe to assume that he excels in the every espect of ninjutsu.knowing the nature of ninjutsu gives him the upperhand of usage.don't forget that one of the people call Sandaime "the professor" is kakashi himself. have you ever heard kakashi saying something like "they call him a professor but i'm just as good as him"?no he didn't.he has more faith in Sandaime's skills than you do.
-situational jutsus ,as the name refers work in special situations.you can't create such factor.please honestly tell me , who do you see has more chance to use a jutsu that the other can't counter?
- kakashi had already prepared MS in that fight while the raiton bunshin were fighting.once he activates the MS,he can use it untill his chakra goes off. the prep time we're talking here is the one to first activate it.
2-well if you'll satify, i won't say all but most of them.(though i still believe all :p) but Sandaime clearly has more chance to counter Kakashi's jutsus than Kakashi has to counter Sandaime's.

En Yang Ji

February 12, 2009, 08:42 PM

1-man come on..please...how can you ever have a doubt about who excels in the usage of ninjutsu? we're running in circles. i said " if you just look at that only battle Sandaime fought,you wouldn't know much about his real skills.you should make a safe assumption here that if someone is called the professor and non of the other geniuses are,then that one man must really be something else.it's also safe to assume that he excels in the every espect of ninjutsu.knowing the nature of ninjutsu gives him the upperhand of usage.don't forget that one of the people call Sandaime "the professor" is kakashi himself. have you ever heard kakashi saying something like "they call him a professor but i'm just as good as him"?no he didn't.he has more faith in Sandaime's skills than you do.
-situational jutsus ,as the name refers work in special situations.you can't create such factor.please honestly tell me , who do you see has more chance to use a jutsu that the other can't counter?
- kakashi had already prepared MS in that fight while the raiton bunshin were fighting.once he activates the MS,he can use it untill his chakra goes off. the prep time we're talking here is the one to first activate it.
2-well if you'll satify, i won't say all but most of them.(though i still believe all :p) but Sandaime clearly has more chance to counter Kakashi's jutsus than Kakashi has to counter Sandaime's.

1. Sarutobi was called the professor because he could counter all the jutsu in Konoha. Being able to counter all the jutsu in Konoha may come from:

1. Him studied all of them
2. He knows a large number of jutsu that can counter all the jutsu of Konoha

Kakashi may not better than Kakashi in the usuage in ninjutsu, or even if he is, he may not be that much better.

-It's just an example. I'm just emphazing the point, we shouldn't assume that Sarutobi can block all of Kakashi's jutsu. I'll admit, I do think it's more likely Sarutobi would have a jutsu Kakashi wouldn't be able counter.

-Kakashi would probably be the first one to use his jutsu. If Sarutobi has many jutsu that Kakashi couldn't counter of or is better with ninjutsu than Kakashi, than Kakashi would be more likely to rely on Kamui. Sarutobi probably wouldn't use the death god jutsu since he wouldn't need it than.

TheChosenOne

February 12, 2009, 08:47 PM

1-man come on..please...how can you ever have a doubt about who excels in the usage of ninjutsu?

They both have a 5 in ninjutsu according to the DB, so let's just say that they are equal, unless you have manga scan that somehow proves Hiruzen utilizing ninjutsu better than Kakashi. :confused

...someone is called the professor and non of the other geniuses are,then that one man must really be something else.it's also safe to assume that he excels in the every espect of ninjutsu.They are both ranked 5 in ninjutsu, there is no argument against who is better. You can assume, but it will just remain an assumption. According to the DB, Hiruzen's and Kakashi's use and ability in ninjutsu has warranted a ranking of 5. :)

knowing the nature of ninjutsu gives him the upperhand of usage.don't forget that one of the people call Sandaime "the professor" is kakashi himself.Really ? I thought Iruka was the only stated his Professor title, do you have scan that shows Kakashi saying it ? :confused

have you ever heard kakashi saying something like "they call him a professor but i'm just as good as him"?no he didn't.he has more faith in Sandaime's skills than you do.This statement is just ludicrous; Has there every been a situation in the manga that warranted that response from Kakakashi. Has Hiruzen ever said "I'm the professor and you (Kakashi) are not better than me", why create hypothetical convo's that has no pull. :)

- kakashi had already prepared MS in that fight while the raiton bunshin were fighting.once he activates the MS,he can use it untill his chakra goes off.Care to prove this ? (the former statement) :confused

shinsengumi

February 12, 2009, 11:22 PM

1. Sarutobi was called the professor because he could counter all the jutsu in Konoha. Being able to counter all the jutsu in Konoha may come from:
1. Him studied all of them
2. He knows a large number of jutsu that can counter all the jutsu of Konohamaybe there is a misunderstanding here about the better usage of ninjutsu.what i mean is,just like you said,either because he studied them all or knows a large number of jutsus,in most situations he would come up with a counter jutsu faster than kakashi and even if not faster,in a more efficient way most of the time.this also comes from experience
there is one example in my mind; remember the time when Jman fought Konan. Konan did all her paper jutsus but all jman did was washing her with oil. "paper can not unfold if it's soaked in oil"...that simple but most effective.this is what i call excelling in using ninjutsu.both sides may have 5 in the DB,it means they are good at it but one side can excel in usage thanks to experience/knowledge.at this point i vote for Sandaime.i know that i'm holding a proofless stand but just trying to explain what i think and why

Kakashi would probably be the first one to use his jutsu. If Sarutobi has many jutsu that Kakashi couldn't counter of or is better with ninjutsu than Kakashi, than Kakashi would be more likely to rely on Kamui. Sarutobi probably wouldn't use the death god jutsu since he wouldn't need it than.
well i don't have much to say about this because you're actually right.the reason why i said shiki fuujin was because of the rule.because it's the only finishing jutsu we've seen of Sandaime.i don't see any other reason for Sandaime to resort to it

They both have a 5 in ninjutsu according to the DB, so let's just say that they are equal, unless you have manga scan that somehow proves Hiruzen utilizing ninjutsu better than Kakashi. :confused
don't misunderstand the meaning of the stats.if 2 ninja with the same stats were always equal, then it would mean Kurenai's and Itachi's genjutsu were equal or Ukon's and Orochimaru's ninjutsu were equal and Kabuto's seals were better than Jiraiya's.

They are both ranked 5 in ninjutsu, there is no argument against who is better. You can assume, but it will just remain an assumption. According to the DB, Hiruzen's and Kakashi's use and ability in ninjutsu has warranted a ranking of 5. :)
having the same stats doesn't mean they'll use their skills at the exact same level.that means they are both good at it,really really good on their own way but one can still be sperior to the other.you can call it an assumption but not a baseless one.i take every thing we heard about Sandaime as basics

Really ? I thought Iruka was the only stated his Professor title, do you have scan that shows Kakashi saying it ? :confused
you mean you think iruka gave a nickname to Sandaime on his own that noone else knows?or is it possible that we only saw iruka saying that but it doesn't change the fack that it's one of Sandaime's tittles?and is it such a baseless assumption to think that Kakashi(and the whole town) acknowledges him as the professor?hey !! do you think the only people call him Hokage are the ones that we already saw?what about the rest of the town that we haven't see saying?i'm sure this doesn't proove to you that everybody in the town acknowledges him as Hokage.

Care to prove this ? (the former statement) :confused
when they were chasing deidara it took a long prep time for him but when deidara was about to self detonate,he didn't have any moment but succeeded to send the explotion to another diemension. the prep time between these two is considerable different.maybe i'm wrong on this but i feel like it's true

narutoschkraknives

February 12, 2009, 11:31 PM

Kakashi would have win..
Knowing all jutsu in konoha doesnt make you a winner. Let alone Pain who have rinnegan and kakashi able to handle 2 of them. The down side of that battle was Kakashi have less chakra.

Sarutobi is limited to jutsu because his old and less chakra that what it said by those ANBU in manga. He's jutsu is strong but kakashi is always smart using kamawari. Even 2 Pain couldn't stop him so easily.

Sarutobi doesnt even move that fast anymore. Kakashi can just use mangekyo and teleport him to another dimension.

Sarutobi doesnt know all the jutsu or counter them. Sarutobi doesnt know anything about kakashi mangekyo or what is it capable of.

That makes no sense sarutobis chakra was so thick it filled the air or some shit like that.like i said the third can use dangerous highlevel jutsu very fast and pressure kakashi if it was the young sarutobi kakashi would have no chance but with the old saru there kinda even.Also i dont think kakashi would have time to use ms nor would it be enuf to stop ther third

Lemonadez

February 13, 2009, 01:29 AM

That makes no sense sarutobis chakra was so thick it filled the air or some shit like that.like i said the third can use dangerous highlevel jutsu very fast and pressure kakashi if it was the young sarutobi kakashi would have no chance but with the old saru there kinda even.Also i dont think kakashi would have time to use ms nor would it be enuf to stop ther third

1.) Stop making any speculation you dont even know how strong sarutobi on his prime. U have no valid data.

GO READ DATA BOOK, its in "STATS" which is release by Masashi Kishimoto the author of Naruto, that kakashi win over Sarutobi.

Who do you think they will believe? YOU or THE AUTHOR OF NARUTO who wrote the DATA of every character details in Naruto.

2.) You are so stupid, Can u Sarutobi fight 2 Pain at once?. Deva realm whos shooting a rocket launcher and Kakashi activated MS instantly and teleported the rocket in instant. How about the Explosion of Deidara. He made it in time, which is the EXPLOSION is faster than Sarutobi.

Stop making shit up, "Sarutobi chakra is Thick it filled the air" its so fucking bullshit you never read manga. Go read it again its clearly stated by "ANBU" that Sarutobi doesnt have that much of chakra/stamina because his too OLD.

3.) That PRESSURE of CHakra you talking about is "Orochimaru" who release his killing intent while toying with Sarutobi who almost fainted due to Orochimaru putting pressure on him.

TheChosenOne

February 13, 2009, 09:14 AM

don't misunderstand the meaning of the stats.if 2 ninja with the same stats were always equal, then it would mean Kurenai's and Itachi's genjutsu were equal or Ukon's and Orochimaru's ninjutsu were equal and Kabuto's seals were better than Jiraiya's.

The problem with those comparison's is that there is always one that has shown more. Oro has shown more use of ninjutsu than Ukon, Itachi than Kurenai and Jiraiya with Kabuto (I think). Based on the manga, Kakashi has shown more use, so then the obvious choice should be Kakashi. The only defense you have is Hiruzen was called "The Professor", titles only get you so far in arguments like this where one character has shown much more. Hiruzen has only shown about 5-6 jutsu's against Oro, so that is all we get to work with. I agree that is unfair but that is that nature of threads like this. Statements like Hiruzen should be able to defend against Kakashi's jutsu cuz he's the "Professor" isn't a valid rebuttal. :)

having the same stats doesn't mean they'll use their skills at the exact same level.that means they are both good at it,really really good on their own way but one can still be sperior to the other.you can call it an assumption but not a baseless one.i take every thing we heard about Sandaime as basicsYes, but considering there isn't any definite proof that shows Hiruzen using ninjutsu at a better level than Kakashi (unless there is a scan), we are forced to concede to DB stats. Sure Hiruzen can still be better than Kakashi or vice-versa, but that is just an assumption, what is FACT, is that both their ninjutsu skills are recognized with a ranking of 5, nothing more, nothing less. :)

or is it possible that we only saw iruka saying that but it doesn't change the fack that it's one of Sandaime's tittles?How can you argue on titles, How can you argue that "The Professor" is a better title than "Copy Ninja", seriously ? Titles and names can be argued as subjective and will ultimately boil down to opinion. If Kakashi was called "The Teacher" or something like that then you can make a case for which title is superior, but if titles have no bounds for comparison, then you can't really make a case for it being better or superior. :)

and is it such a baseless assumption to think that Kakashi(and the whole town) acknowledges him as the professor?I never stated it as a baseless assumption, I simply asked you to provide proof to show Kakashi calling Sandaime by his title. There isn't a page in the manga that shows it, so we can agree Kakashi has never referred to Hiruzen as The Professor. Your bordering on fallacy, you assume Kakashi has called Hiruzen as Professor, but that is based on another assumption, Kakashi is part of the whole town (Prove Danzou calling Hiruzen by his title, if he hasn't then it's not the whole town). He could be, but as long as their is minimal probability of him not stating it (and thus not the whole town), my point is valid. :)

hey !! do you think the only people call him Hokage are the ones that we already saw?what about the rest of the town that we haven't see saying?i'm sure this doesn't proove to you that everybody in the town acknowledges him as Hokage.Big difference in the title Hokage and The Professor, the former is an actual Rank and thus official. The latter is just a formal title that was given by some people due to his ingeniousness. You can actually achieve the title Hokage, something that is not applicable to The Professor. :)

when they were chasing deidara it took a long prep time for him but when deidara was about to self detonate,he didn't have any moment but succeeded to send the explotion to another diemension. the prep time between these two is considerable different.maybe i'm wrong on this but i feel like it's trueOne of the reason's for the prep time was Kakashi hadn't mastered the technique yet (also for the reader's benefit). Against Pain we can see the Kakashi has reduced the preptime, since he was able to use MS within seconds (being stuck in rubble till the nail coming towards him). If you can show me a scan of Kakashi preparing for MS before being stuck in the rubble, then I will agree until then, you have not refuted the statement (Kakashi preparing MS before the nail). :)

En Yang Ji

February 13, 2009, 09:53 AM

maybe there is a misunderstanding here about the better usage of ninjutsu.what i mean is,just like you said,either because he studied them all or knows a large number of jutsus,in most situations he would come up with a counter jutsu faster than kakashi and even if not faster,in a more efficient way most of the time.this also comes from experience
there is one example in my mind; remember the time when Jman fought Konan. Konan did all her paper jutsus but all jman did was washing her with oil. "paper can not unfold if it's soaked in oil"...that simple but most effective.this is what i call excelling in using ninjutsu.both sides may have 5 in the DB,it means they are good at it but one side can excel in usage thanks to experience/knowledge.at this point i vote for Sandaime.i know that i'm holding a proofless stand but just trying to explain what i think and why

I glad you took the time to explain you view in-depth and I agree, Sarutobi probably would have an edge in ninjustu because of his experience.

-Now I'm starting to think Sarutobi would have a better chance of winning, using regular ninjutsu. While Kakashi could possibly win using regular jutsu, I think he may have to rely on Kamui.

I think Kamui is fast enough, that it could be used nearly instanteously and Sarutobi has no knowledge of it.

Sachsenhesse

February 13, 2009, 09:53 AM

1.) Stop making any speculation you dont even know how strong sarutobi on his prime. U have no valid data.

GO READ DATA BOOK, its in "STATS" which is release by Masashi Kishimoto the author of Naruto, that kakashi win over Sarutobi.

Who do you think they will believe? YOU or THE AUTHOR OF NARUTO who wrote the DATA of every character details in Naruto.

2.) You are so stupid, Can u Sarutobi fight 2 Pain at once?. Deva realm whos shooting a rocket launcher and Kakashi activated MS instantly and teleported the rocket in instant. How about the Explosion of Deidara. He made it in time, which is the EXPLOSION is faster than Sarutobi.

Stop making shit up, "Sarutobi chakra is Thick it filled the air" its so fucking bullshit you never read manga. Go read it again its clearly stated by "ANBU" that Sarutobi doesnt have that much of chakra/stamina because his too OLD.

3.) That PRESSURE of CHakra you talking about is "Orochimaru" who release his killing intent while toying with Sarutobi who almost fainted due to Orochimaru putting pressure on him.

To be honest, this post could only come from an american. ^^

btw stats are not all

Belisar

February 13, 2009, 12:35 PM

Please take a good look at it again Sarutobi nearly fainted at Orochimaru killing Intent.
what the fuck dude? :err do we read the same manga?

http://i44.tinypic.com/2rmpkd5.jpg

the only one who fainted was kakashi. :rolleyes:

http://i39.tinypic.com/2me9zes.jpg

Orochimaru was playing around with hokage, did he summon hydra? did he summon manda?
if hydra and manda were enough, he wouldn't summon two hokage who were the strongest of their time!

http://i39.tinypic.com/i4251h.jpg

No right. He was toying around with him.
you call THIS toying? :jawdrop
http://i44.tinypic.com/2uera8o.jpg

Jiraiya isn't at Orochimaru level, Jiraiya is clearly stronger than Orochimaru, Orochimaru is genius (brain) but that doesnt prove anything that Orochimaru is stronger than Jiraiya. Jiraya only win against Pain due to "Sage frog Genjutsu". Go read the manga again.
i said: there are about the same level. read the databook. oro has 33 stats and jiraiya 33.5. jiraiya was using frogs because it was part of his sage mode. orochimaru survived against 4 tail naruto only due to his snake body, so what? :oh

Yea and Thanks to who? Yondaime jutsu, what could he do without Yondaime jutsu?. Sarutobi cant even dispel genjutsu because his too old. Like they said "New Generation is always stronger than old generation" that the point of Naruto manga.
sandaime was hokage for about 50 years ± few years. new generation my ass. even after the 4th was choosen (and oro was candidate) orochimaru was not strong enough to kill sandaime, after he was caught in the act.

about genjutsu: he sniffed his enemies out! can kakashi do that? NO! it's the speciality of shino's familiy.

http://i44.tinypic.com/1072czr.jpg

and what the need to dispel a genjutsu, if you know that your next attack will kill them?

http://img55.onemanga.com/mangas/00000004/000102002/10.jpg

Deidara was even moving fast compare to Sarutobi. Sarutobi who doesnt attack first, he rather talk instead to attack his opponent first, that his personality.
you talk about him like you saw dozens of his fights. if he fights than he is serious.

http://i40.tinypic.com/34f1y6b.jpg
http://i40.tinypic.com/25p0rpy.jpg
to me is orochimaru far more talkative.

That right he doesnt need to know every jutsu, Harashima was just a great shinobi because of his power, he posses other several biju and madara posses kyuubi. Of course they be great shinobi with all those powers?.
false! they are great because they have trained themselves to this level, some of them with help of bloodline abilities.
that is what to be meant kage level.

http://i44.tinypic.com/beu3jk.jpghttp://i41.tinypic.com/am3zn6.jpg

even the anbu who are supposed to be hokage guards, missing nins hunters and high level jounin (itachi, kakashi and yamato were/are members) acknowledged their power.

BTW, people that are saying that Sarturobi would have beaten Orochimaru when he was younger, this is very false.

Sarturobi had no way to get rid of the past Hokages except for the Death God, when he was younger he did not know it, considering it was Minato who created it and taught it too him. Sarturobi would of had the greatest chance of defeated Orochimaru directly after learning the Death God technique if Oro ressurected the Hokages. And I don't know how Sarturobi would deal wth the Hydra.
i'm sure young sarutobi knew a lot of tricks to get rid of hydra. also that has nothing to do with this topic. there are a lot of sealings techniques. sarutobi surely knew few kinds of forbidden techniques himself. i mean, if oro knew them so why not saru? btw. do you think edo tensei or hydra would be enough to defeat the strongest shinobi of five countries? :blink

http://i40.tinypic.com/2narxpw.jpg

They both have a 5 in ninjutsu according to the DB, so let's just say that they are equal, unless you have manga scan that somehow proves Hiruzen utilizing ninjutsu better than Kakashi. :confused

They are both ranked 5 in ninjutsu, there is no argument against who is better. You can assume, but it will just remain an assumption. According to the DB, Hiruzen's and Kakashi's use and ability in ninjutsu has warranted a ranking of 5. :)
itachi and orochimaru have both 5 in genjutsu also. you know the rest.

the only thing that can explain that imo is: 5 means you have reached your own limit. you know, you can train your muscles to the limit but if somebody with a better body structure train his body also to the limit, he will exceed you in strength.

Really ? I thought Iruka was the only stated his Professor title, do you have scan that shows Kakashi saying it ? :confused
how many staments do you need? do you think iruka would lie in front of hokage himself? c'mon.

That makes no sense sarutobis chakra was so thick it filled the air or some shit like that.like i said the third can use dangerous highlevel jutsu very fast and pressure kakashi if it was the young sarutobi kakashi would have no chance but with the old saru there kinda even.Also i dont think kakashi would have time to use ms nor would it be enuf to stop ther third
http://i40.tinypic.com/24mrj8x.jpg

that's what he said to kabuto. :/

ps: this whole discussion is ridiculous. to compare the strongest kage even if he is old with a jounin is just :eyeroll

TheChosenOne

February 13, 2009, 12:55 PM

i said: there are about the same level. read the databook. oro has 33 stats and jiraiya 33.5.

Actually their stats are 35 (http://static.mangahelpers.com/raws/databook3/japflap/052-053%20-%20Orochimaru.jpg) (Ref 2 (http://www.leafninja.com/biographies-O.php#Orochimaru)) for Oro and 35.5 (http://static.mangahelpers.com/raws/databook3/japflap/090-091%20-%20Jiraiya.jpg) (Ref 2 (http://www.leafninja.com/biographies-J.php#Jiraiya)) for Jiraiya. :)

itachi and orochimaru have both 5 in genjutsu also. you know the rest.the only thing that can explain that imo is: 5 means you have reached your own limit. you know, you can train your muscles to the limit but if somebody with a better body structure train his body also to the limit, he will exceed you in strength.Does not matter, however you interpret it, doesn't change the fact that we have no mangascan that somehow shows Hiruzen utilizing ninjutsu at a better level than Kakashi. Thus we are forced to look at their stats in DB, whether the DB is about a personal limit or an overall limit, both have a ranking of 5. So, we are forced to yield that they are equal, unless you can somehow prove that Hiruzen having a ranking of 5 still exceeded Kakashi's own ranking of 5. :)

how many staments do you need? do you think iruka would lie in front of hokage himself? c'mon.That isn't what the post was about, shinsengumi stated that Kakashi has also called Hiruzen "the Professor". I took it in a literal manner thinking there was a manga scan, there isn't. That is what my repsonse was about. :)

En Yang Ji

February 13, 2009, 09:00 PM

http://i40.tinypic.com/24mrj8x.jpg

that's what he said to kabuto. :/

ps: this whole discussion is ridiculous. to compare the strongest kage even if he is old with a jounin is just :eyeroll

The 3rd was said to be the strongest Hokage when he was younger.

Also Kakashi was an elite jounin when Oro said that. Kakashi had 3 years to improve. Neji was able to go from a genin to a jounin, Sasuke was able to go from chunin level to Kage level, and Gaara was able to go from a genin to a Kage within 3 years.

Why is it so hard to believe Kakashi could have became Kage level?

Delbi

February 14, 2009, 01:26 AM

To be honest, this post could only come from an american. ^^

btw stats are not all

Not all Americans are idoits, he just happens to be American and an idoit.

Sachsenhesse

February 14, 2009, 04:07 AM

Not all Americans are idoits, he just happens to be American and an idoit.

I apologize. ^^

Does not matter, however you interpret it, doesn't change the fact that we have no mangascan that somehow shows Hiruzen utilizing ninjutsu at a better level than Kakashi.

What do you want? He could use all Jutsu in Konoha which he could gained, he knowed all jutsu also. He was on highjutsulevel without an fucking sharingan.

example:

http://img55.onemanga.com/mangas/00000004/000101972/05.jpg

He created a wall of earth in an place without earth by only using his chakra. Kakashis wall was drawn out of the earth which is much easier then spit out such a wall from your own body.

Belisar

February 14, 2009, 06:25 AM

The 3rd was said to be the strongest Hokage when he was younger.

Also Kakashi was an elite jounin when Oro said that. Kakashi had 3 years to improve. Neji was able to go from a genin to a jounin, Sasuke was able to go from chunin level to Kage level, and Gaara was able to go from a genin to a Kage within 3 years.
gaara was already at jounin level in the exams arc. even the chuunin said that no one chuunin in konoha would go through the forest without a scratch.

sasuke became kage level only through itachi's help. without mangekyou sharingan he is only at kakashi's level.

neji is a prodigy even in his own clan who are one of the best clans in konoha. shikamaru became a jounin, too because he is very smart.

Why is it so hard to believe Kakashi could have became Kage level?
because he isn't stronger than tsunade who is the weakest hokage so far.

kage level is a shakier term. deidara defeated gaara who was a kage but was weaker than sasori who defeated a kage. kakashi was about deidara level but he would lose against sasori or jiraiya. would tsunade and kakashi die, most probably shikamaru would became a hokage due to his super intellect. but noone would think of him as a kage level because he is not very strong.

En Yang Ji

February 14, 2009, 07:04 AM

gaara was already at jounin level in the exams arc. even the chuunin said that no one chuunin in konoha would go through the forest without a scratch.

sasuke became kage level only through itachi's help. without mangekyou sharingan he is only at kakashi's level.

neji is a prodigy even in his own clan who are one of the best clans in konoha. shikamaru became a jounin, too because he is very smart.

because he isn't stronger than tsunade who is the weakest hokage so far.

kage level is a shakier term. deidara defeated gaara who was a kage but was weaker than sasori who defeated a kage. kakashi was about deidara level but he would lose against sasori or jiraiya. would tsunade and kakashi die, most probably shikamaru would became a hokage due to his super intellect. but noone would think of him as a kage level because he is not very strong.

-How do you know he isn't stronger than Tsunade? How do we even know, how strong Tsunade actually is if she never went all out?

-Gaara got through the forest unscratched because of his automatic defense. Who said he was at jounin level? If Gaara was Jounin level, how did Naruto beat him pre-timeskip?

-Sasuke beat Deidara, even when Deidara had help from Madara, without MS.

-Most of the people you mentioned are around the same level. All of them have good and bad match-ups.

-Kakashi has over 1000 jutsu, has stats that rival all 3 Sannin, the ability to copy more jutsu and MS.

TheChosenOne

February 14, 2009, 03:48 PM

What do you want? He could use all Jutsu in Konoha which he could gained, he knowed all jutsu also. He was on highjutsulevel without an fucking sharingan.

That doesn't prove he was was better at ninjutsu than Kakashi. Kakashi has copied over 1000 jutsu, does not mean he is somehow better. Kakashi created his own jutsu, has Sandaime shown anything at that level. :)

He created a wall of earth in an place without earth by only using his chakra. Kakashis wall was drawn out of the earth which is much easier then spit out such a wall from your own body.Kakashi created (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/336/12/) a barricade of water to defend against Kakuzu's attack in a place where there was no water. He created that water just by using chakra, just like how Hiruzen created a wall of earth by using chakra. How do you prove which one was greater ? There isn't any set scale for that, if it's stated that creating earth from nothing is harder than creating water from chakra then I will agree, other than that we are once again forced to concede to DB stats. :)

Kravmaga

February 14, 2009, 04:13 PM

Well, Kakashi is extremely fast,and very good at taijutsu, and he has a Sharigan. I think the last thing Sarturobi would want is for Kakashi to get close. His best bet would to use Enma in his staff form or natural form to keep Kakashi away from him while he launches ninjutsu at him.

Sarutobi isn't weak at taijutsu.
With his staff, he instantly disarmed orochimaru.

As much as I think kakashi is an awesome character, he's not a match for monkey. Kakashi is more of a team player; the way he takes charge of teams and the crap he pulled with the chouji pair are pretty impressive, his one on ones not so much.

Delbi

February 15, 2009, 01:35 AM

Sarutobi isn't weak at taijutsu.
With his staff, he instantly disarmed orochimaru.

As much as I think kakashi is an awesome character, he's not a match for monkey. Kakashi is more of a team player; the way he takes charge of teams and the crap he pulled with the chouji pair are pretty impressive, his one on ones not so much.

Can't really talk about Kakashi 1 v 1 beacause the last time he fought an opponent 1 v 1 was against Zabuza, and even then he still had to protect people.

In fact, there hasn't been one instance in the entire manga where Kakashi has fought an opponent by himself, or has fought an oppenent and has not a one point had to protect his comrades.

Kusachu

February 17, 2009, 04:04 AM

Well, I went ahead and voted Kakashi. Both ninja are said to know somewhere around 1000 jutsu, but we haven't seen nearly so many in their arsenal. Kakashi's weak point is stamina because of Sharingan, but Sarutobi is old and past his prime. Both are adept at Kagebunshin and substitution, but again, Kakashi's clones have Sharingan. He can see, copy, counter, and avoid probably anything Sarutobi can throw at him. Both have the ability to summon, though I think that Enma is probably stronger than the dogs, and he can transform into the diamond staff. Ultimately I think that it would come down to who could immobilize who for as long as it took to deliver the killing blow. If Sarutobi was 10 years younger and had shown more of his battle ability I'd give it to him, but somehow I just think Kakashi would make it out on top because he can look at Sarutobi and vaporize his head.

And to the one who posted that huge post of pics of Sarutobi kicking ass and taking names, that was very nice indeed!! I did notice that you said that Kakashi cannot sniff out an opponent though, and I'd like to remind you that he in fact can. Not to the extent that say, Kiba can, but he can, and if he couldn't, his doggies could.

Oh! But the part when you showed Kakashi crapping his pants before mighty Orochimaru was nice too. I liked that a lot. :XD I still vote 30 year old Kakashi wins against 65 year old Sarutobi though. At least, based on what we've seen of them both as of now.

Shikamaru1096

December 23, 2009, 04:07 PM

Sarutobi is in a different livel...The best Hokage of course wins!

Kusachu

December 23, 2009, 04:44 PM

That doesn't prove anything. Kakashi is Hokage now too. What, you think Kakashi Hokage is weaker than Sarutobi Hokage? Why? ;)

shinsengumi

December 23, 2009, 05:11 PM

i vote for sarutobi but i wont go as far as saying he would own kakashi. kakashi deserves enough respect against any opponent. but i think sarutobi has to win just for the sake of this point--> if there is any man in the whole narutoverse who knows how to deal with sharingan, it must be sarutobi sensei. he had all the anbu under his order for all those years.even if he doesnt know that one spesific ability of the user,he will always be very very very cautious.i can just say this, he will somehow make kakashi reveal kamui before he reveals his full hand.
still i see it a very close match,because of sarutobi's age. if he was in his prime,i would dare to use the word "own" without any regrets ^ ^

Destined_One

December 23, 2009, 05:53 PM

I like Kakashi, many people say absurd things like "he would get owned" in many of the match up's in these types of threads, though I tend to believe he is capable of footing it with every ninja we have seen, for at least a certain amount of time anyways. He even matched Itachi, until he underestimated his ability to resist Tsukuyomi. IMO he is what Itachi would be without the MS, excellent in all facets, though MS places him in a higher tier. As for Sarutobi, he suffers a lot from being introduced so early. I mean everything he showed was epic, blocking with explosive seals, and replicating shuriken whilst they are flying, though as any Manga progresses and Abilities/Power lvls/jutsu get bigger and bigger, the feats of the early characters seem dwarfed. This is likely the reason many believe the 1st & 2nd weren't at full strength. IMO Kishimoto's intention were to show Hiruzen as this complete bad ass, though it becomes contradicted with his recent hyping of the senju brothers. Therefore I believe even as an old man, Sarutobi was likely still stronger than most of the kages. Hell even Kabuto mentioned he was the strongest Kage of the five great nations, and the Raikage, and Tkage, going by how experienced they are would have likely been Kages at that time. So Kakashi as he always does, will foil many of Sarutobi's attempts at victory, but in the end the cream will rise to the top, even if its rather old. Saru-Chan ftw!

mattiaildivino

September 15, 2011, 04:18 PM

hiruzen is stronger than kakashi,and kakashi's kamui would be difficult to use against hiruzen.but with the sharingan kakashi can see the old hiruzen,then kakashi win thank's to hiruzen's oldness

licentious1

September 16, 2011, 05:33 AM

Skidmore

September 16, 2011, 09:10 PM

Team Kakashi is a mirror of Team Sarutobi. The leaders are pretty much the same in ninjutsu and taijutsu, with a sightly edge to Hiruzen.

The difference is that Kakashi is almost(if not) in his prime, which for a ninja seems to between 30-50, while Sarutobi is nowhere there anymore.

So Kakashi could take this, a prime Hiruzen would be too much for Kakashi, but and Old Hiruzen would not be able to succed.

Even though it's hard to see Kakashi fighting Hahirama, Tobirama and Orochimaru. Hiruzen is the most hyped character in the Manga, since he was stated as being strongest Hokage, which puts him above Minato and Hashirama, automatically granting him a TOP 10 ninjas of all time.

hakuthehedgehog

September 17, 2011, 05:17 AM

Kakashi almost shit his pants just by looking at Orochimaru, what's to stop Hiruzen from doing the same to Kakashi: he did a standstill against Orochimaru.

shafagh

September 18, 2011, 03:11 PM

Kakashi wins.

Kakashi has elemental advantage. Lightening>Earth and Water>Fire.

Kakashi and Hiruzen are both veterans so they are on similar footing with an edge to Hiruzen.

Kakashi has access to a bloodline limit.

Kakashi has the springtime of youth and new generation>old generation.

Sarutobi was able to use all of five Element in his jutsu ....

But kakashi has uchiha power and MS jutsu .... aside of Kakashi's Sharingan , Kakashi is nothing against Sarutobi and his summon ....

mattiaildivino

September 18, 2011, 03:20 PM

Sarutobi was able to use all of five Element in his jutsu ....

But kakashi has uchiha power and MS jutsu .... aside of Kakashi's Sharingan , Kakashi is nothing against Sarutobi and his summon ....

honestly,hiruzen used just fire and earth.... and hiruzen summons is enma but I doubt kakashi and his dogs can't overcome enma...

Skidmore

September 18, 2011, 06:18 PM

honestly,hiruzen used just fire and earth.... and hiruzen summons is enma but I doubt kakashi and his dogs can't overcome enma...

Kakashi dogs doesn't seems to compare to Enma.

Well about Hiruzen's ability of using all five elements, we were just told about it, it's pretty much the same of saiying that Hashirama could control the 9 Bijuu, we never saw, but we were told about it.

IMO I believe he could use all those elements, but he probably doesn't have affinity with all of them, just like Kakashi. Only Nagato and Kakazu(unnatural manners) had affinity with all the five elements, so the jutsu would not be all that powerfull.

Rikudou King

September 18, 2011, 09:03 PM

Sarutobi was never said to be able to use all five elements. Kishi made it pretty clear that such a thing was impossible apart from special cases.

Skidmore

September 18, 2011, 09:34 PM

Sarutobi was never said to be able to use all five elements. Kishi made it pretty clear that such a thing was impossible apart from special cases.

No, Jiraiya told that mastering the six types of chakra nature was unprecedent, not five. While Orochimaru said that Hiruzen was able to use all jutsu in Konoha, which pretty much include five types os elements.

You can check this at Chapter 375 - Page 11.

Kishimoto never made this clear. I can only remember his statment through Kakashi and Yamato that generally Jounins does have affinity with at least Two Elements. (Chapter 316 - Page 5). And Kakashi even states that he can manipulate more elements than Thunder.

There isn't this limitations about how many elements can someone control, it was never stated, but it seems to take mastership to do so, and Nagato doing this with an age of Ten was an awe.

Hiruzen wasn't called the Professor for nothing.

rell250

September 18, 2011, 10:02 PM

Rikudou King

September 19, 2011, 01:28 AM

No, Jiraiya told that mastering the six types of chakra nature was unprecedent, not five. While Orochimaru said that Hiruzen was able to use all jutsu in Konoha, which pretty much include five types os elements.

You can check this at Chapter 375 - Page 11.

Kishimoto never made this clear. I can only remember his statment through Kakashi and Yamato that generally Jounins does have affinity with at least Two Elements. (Chapter 316 - Page 5). And Kakashi even states that he can manipulate more elements than Thunder.

There isn't this limitations about how many elements can someone control, it was never stated, but it seems to take mastership to do so, and Nagato doing this with an age of Ten was an awe.

Hiruzen wasn't called the Professor for nothing. The very idea that Sarutobi could use every technique in Konoha is obviously false even before you factor in elemental affinity. Konoha has dozen of Secret and Bloodline Limits that Sarutobi couldn't possibly be able to use. Anyway, it was made clear that knowing more then three natures was strange. Kakashi was surprised that Kakuzu was able to use four and understood why when he learnt about Kakuzu stealing hearts and their affinities (http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/335/7). If being able to use all five natures was possible for a normal person, then Kakashi wouldn't have been surprised by Kakuzu's display. This also showed us that in order to use any element, one must have the correct affinity. You can't use an element that you don't have a affinity for, thus the whole reason people can't use all the elemental natures.

As for what Jiraiya said, it doesn't change anything. The yin/yang nature is the basis of genjutsu, healing techniques, and various other techniques. Unlike the five elements, there seems to be no required affinity needed to use it. So that wasn't what Jiraiya was impressed at the Rinnegan being able to do, but making use of all five of the other elements. In fact, even if you want to keep with such an argument, the exclusion of that sixth nature (that even someone like Sakura is able to make use of!) would still prove Orochimaru wrong, as Sarutobi still wouldn't have been able to preform every technique in Konoha without it.

The third databook mentions it's ability to master all five elements, which wouldn't be a great deal if anyone could do it.

Samsara* Eye (輪廻眼, Rinnegan)
Ninjutsu, Kekkei Genkai, No rank, Supplementary
User: Nagato

The supreme eyes that appear during troubled times
Will they bring about creation or destruction~~

The doujutsu held by the founder of the shinobi, the "Sage of the Six Realms"** It's most distinctive feature being the ripple pattern spreading out over the eyeballs, the "Rinnegan" are called the "most exalted eyes" among the "Three Great Doujutsu," the other two being the "Sharingan" and "Byakugan". Admired as being able to bring forth all ninjutsu, the holder of these eyes can completely master the five elemental nature transformations that form the basis of ninjutsu. It is said that in times when the world is in disorder, this person is sent down from the heavens to become either a "God of Creation" who will calm the world, or a "Destroyer" who reduce everything to nothing.

Spreading out like ripples on water
The secret of the origin of ninjutsu!!

↓Sharing their field of vision, the "Six Realms of Pain"**** boast a cooperation leaves absolutely no gaps!!
[picture of Pain's first Animal Realm body summoning a giant panda]

[picture of Pain's Preta Realm, first Animal Realm, and Human Realm]
[picture of Pain's Preta Realm's face]
←↑The "Rinnegan" wielder Pain not only have a "shared field of vision," but also have "the same chakra-disturbing weapons" and "immortal bodies". However, if these are part of the "Rinnegan's" powers is still a mystery.

*Samsara is the endless cycle of death and rebirth in Buddhism, Hinduism and a few more religions. In Buddhism, there are six planes of existence one can be reborn into, according to one's Karma. These six planes are known as the "Six Realms of Suffering" and are, from highest to lowest, the Deva Realm, the Asura Realm, the Human Realm, the Animal Realm, the Preta Realm, and the Naraka realm.
**Sage of the Six realms (六道仙人, Rikudou Sennin). See above for an explanation of the six realms of Samsara.
***Three Great Doujutsu (三大瞳術, Sandai Doujutsu).
****Six Realms of Pain (ペイン六道, Pein Rikudou). A direct pun on the Six realms of Suffering explained above.

Link (http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showthread.php/45246-ShounenSuki-s-Databook-3-translations-%28all-jutsu-4-characters-12-misc%29?p=1163391&viewfull=1#post1163391).

So there's no way that Sarutobi could use all five elements or every technique in Konoha. It makes far more sense to presume that Orochimaru meant that Sarutobi knew of every technique in Konoha, which would have also explained his title as professor.

xXan

September 19, 2011, 01:32 AM

Curent Kakashi stomps this. The Kakashi from part one would get owned.

Why Kakashi stomps? 1 word KAMUI. Yes one more peep that the almighty sharingan will 1 shot.

Skidmore

September 19, 2011, 04:43 PM

the holder of these eyes can completely master the five elemental nature transformations that form the basis of ninjutsu.

Completly Mastery, which in my point of view is Master it to a high degree. Jiraiya was impressed that he was able to complete master it at age of 10. And of course Kakashi was impressed, it doens't seems to be a easy feat, it might explain why Hiruzen was nicknamed The God of Shinobi.

There is nothing saiying that is impossible to use all of five elements. It was never stated in canon. Even the Databook doesn't state it. And if the Databook does come to debate, it also states that Hiruzen was the strongest Hokage in history, which many people does not accept.

Rikudou King

September 19, 2011, 07:45 PM

Completly Mastery, which in my point of view is Master it to a high degree. Jiraiya was impressed that he was able to complete master it at age of 10. And of course Kakashi was impressed, it doens't seems to be a easy feat, it might explain why Hiruzen was nicknamed The God of Shinobi.

There is nothing saiying that is impossible to use all of five elements. It was never stated in canon. Even the Databook doesn't state it. And if the Databook does come to debate, it also states that Hiruzen was the strongest Hokage in history, which many people does not accept. And Kakshi wasn't impressed, he was confused. he couldn't understand why Kakuzu was able to use four elements until his special ability was revealed, at which point it then make sense for him. Why would that be the case if a person can learn more then three elements? Why would Kakashi need a difference reason to understand? It was basically shown that one can't use all five elements. Otherwise Nagato and Kakuzu wouldn't be such big deals.

Not only that, but at no point anywhere was it claimed that Sarutobi could use all five elements. Only thing even implying such a feat is Orochimaru's statement, which I have already pointed out is false by the sheer fact that Sarutobi couldn't have been able to preform such Secret and Bloodline techniques. So exactly why should it be assumed that Sarutobi could use all the different natures when such a thing was never shown or stated?

P.S. People don't believe that Sarutobi was the strongest Hokage because both Hashirama and Tobirama described as the best Hokages along with Minato also being praised.

GomuGomu_Getsuga

September 19, 2011, 07:54 PM

Old Sarutobi takes this. He could fight the 1st and 2nd Hokage together evenly, while pushing out 1 hit K.O. jutsu. Kakashi would have to rely on mangekyou just to survive. Old Sarutobi only has to worry about 1 high level Jonin, instead of 3 Kage leveled ninja.

Rikudou King

September 19, 2011, 08:08 PM

Kakashi fought against the two strongest Paths without any help or intel. And unlike the two Edo Hokages, they weren't standing around allowing him to do as he please. With his speed and Sarutobi having no viable defense, Kakashi can finish things with his Raikiri.

GomuGomu_Getsuga

September 19, 2011, 08:12 PM

In no way, shape or form did the Kages stand around. Did you forget the environment changing Jutsu they were using against Sarutobi. Not to mention taijutsu and genjutsu.

Kakashi didn't fight two paths. Kakashi, Choji and Choji's father fought them. Kakashi hardly survived against them, not battle them on par. Kakashi is cool and skillful, but not as much as the God of Ninja.

Rikudou King

September 19, 2011, 08:26 PM

They did stand around quite a bit. Most of the fight they just stood there. The only time they actually moved was in the very beginning with the ninjutsu exchange, when Sarutobi attempted to hit Orochimaru, and then near the end of the fight with some taijustu.

Kakashi did fight the two Paths. He was fighting them even before Chouji and Chouza appeared with the other ninjas. Kakashi was handling things find. Not only that, but had they not showed up, he already had a plan in motion to defeat them. With his ability to predict movement and employ genjutsus that could instantly knock someone out, not to mention Kamui, he has all he needs to quickly defeat Sarutobi.

GomuGomu_Getsuga

September 19, 2011, 08:38 PM

Skidmore

September 19, 2011, 08:44 PM

P.S. People don't believe that Sarutobi was the strongest Hokage because both Hashirama and Tobirama described as the best Hokages along with Minato also being praised.

The problem is that Kishimoto stated it twice through Kabuto and Iruka, Databook I also states that.

Orochimaru was mocking him by the fact that even the God of Shinobi was not able to overcome age, and pointed out that he never saw him under so much Strain, and Orochimaru actually fought Hiruzen around his 55-60, we can conclude that Hiruzen easily dominated the Sannin Genius.

Actually no other Hokage showed anything that could potentially beat even Old Hiruzen apart from Minato's Speed, furthermore the Younger Hyped Sandaime. Hashirama Moukuton showed innefective against him, Nindaime didn't displayed enough power to overthrow him.

I personally think that Hiruzen was trully able to controle the five elements, because there is nowhere in source material stating that he couldn't. And of course he was limited to the non-clan and and non-kekkei genkai jutsus. Nagato was stated to able to use any Ninjutsu he wants, and this is a fact, but IMO I think he can't use Susanoo, otherwise whe he wouldn't be untouchable.

Rikudou King

September 19, 2011, 11:47 PM

Lets see Kakashi fight Orochimaru, Hashirama and LittleBrotherRama at the same time and manage to defeat all of them. (ALONE) They only stood around in the beginning. Enma started to hold them off. Then Hashirama used a genjutsu to blind Sarutobi. If we're assuming that Kakashi is fighting the same versions as Sarutobi fought, then he would be able to handle all three without exhausting himself. They would give him plenty of time to figure out a plan and come up with a way to win. If we're assuming that they'll actually put up a serious fight, then Kakashi would still be able to do it, just not as easily. He would more then likely employ a clone to buy himself time. Since we've seen that genjutsu can be used on an Edo summon, Kakashi can use one to attempt to take them out, or at least delay them. Or he could use it on Orochimaru to force him to cancel the technique. Worst case scenario, as we have been told that Kamui can warp an entire person, Kakashi uses the three he has available to warp Orochimaru and the Edo Hokages to that other dimension, after which he takes a good rest.

You may want to reread the fight, because they stood around more then that. Sarutobi starts the fight with his Fire Dragon Missile (http://www.mangareader.net/93-125-1/naruto/chapter-120.html), Tobirama blocks it with a Water Wall and then shoots a Water Dragon (http://www.mangareader.net/93-125-4/naruto/chapter-120.html) which Sarutobi blocks with an Earth Wall (http://www.mangareader.net/93-125-5/naruto/chapter-120.html), after which Hashirama using his Mokuton to trap Sarutobi (http://www.mangareader.net/93-125-7/naruto/chapter-120.html). Sarutobi summons Enma to break him out (http://www.mangareader.net/93-125-9/naruto/chapter-120.html), then goes into close combat with them dodging (http://www.mangareader.net/93-125-12/naruto/chapter-120.html) in order to attack Orochimaru. They kick him back (http://www.mangareader.net/93-125-14/naruto/chapter-120.html), he places explosive tags on their leg (http://www.mangareader.net/93-125-15/naruto/chapter-120.html), and they stand there regenerating (http://www.mangareader.net/93-125-16/naruto/chapter-120.html). They continue to stand there while Sarutobi decides to use the Dead Demon Soul technique (http://www.mangareader.net/93-126-2/naruto/chapter-121.html) and Orochimaru taunts him (http://www.mangareader.net/93-127-2/naruto/chapter-122.html). Finally, Hashirama covers the entire area in trees (http://www.mangareader.net/93-127-2/naruto/chapter-122.html), which Sarutobi blocks (http://www.mangareader.net/93-127-5/naruto/chapter-122.html). At that point, the Edo Hokages finally go on the offensive (http://www.mangareader.net/93-127-10/naruto/chapter-122.html) while Sarutobi create two clones (http://www.mangareader.net/93-127-11/naruto/chapter-122.html) and finally summons the Shinigami (http://www.mangareader.net/93-127-13/naruto/chapter-122.html), at which point Hashirama using his Darkness genjutsu (http://www.mangareader.net/93-127-14/naruto/chapter-122.html) and the Edo Hokages attack him once (http://www.mangareader.net/93-127-15/naruto/chapter-122.html). They then proceed to do nothing while Sarutobi has his flashback and gives his speech to Orochimaru (http://www.mangareader.net/93-127-18/naruto/chapter-122.html). More standing around (http://www.mangareader.net/93-128-2/naruto/chapter-123.html) before they attack against with more taijutsu (http://www.mangareader.net/93-128-3/naruto/chapter-123.html). More standing around while the Shinigami does what it does (http://www.mangareader.net/93-128-6/naruto/chapter-123.html), followed by Sarutobi sending his clones to find the Edo Hokages (http://www.mangareader.net/93-128-7/naruto/chapter-123.html) and grab them while they again use more taijutsu (http://www.mangareader.net/93-128-8/naruto/chapter-123.html). Sarutobi then pulls there souls out (http://www.mangareader.net/93-128-10/naruto/chapter-123.html). As you can see, they stood around for a large portion of the fight doing nothing.

The problem is that Kishimoto stated it twice through Kabuto and Iruka, Databook I also states that.

Orochimaru was mocking him by the fact that even the God of Shinobi was not able to overcome age, and pointed out that he never saw him under so much Strain, and Orochimaru actually fought Hiruzen around his 55-60, we can conclude that Hiruzen easily dominated the Sannin Genius.

Actually no other Hokage showed anything that could potentially beat even Old Hiruzen apart from Minato's Speed, furthermore the Younger Hyped Sandaime. Hashirama Moukuton showed innefective against him, Nindaime didn't displayed enough power to overthrow him.

I personally think that Hiruzen was trully able to controle the five elements, because there is nowhere in source material stating that he couldn't. And of course he was limited to the non-clan and and non-kekkei genkai jutsus. Nagato was stated to able to use any Ninjutsu he wants, and this is a fact, but IMO I think he can't use Susanoo, otherwise whe he wouldn't be untouchable. And Kishi has also stated that the two previous Hokages were the best and how Minato was the greatest and everything several times. Even Sarutobi deferred to Minato. Being able to defeat Orochimaru years ago doesn't mean much. Back then Orochimaru was in a mortal body, meaning he was killable unlike the current version. Not only that, but we have been told that Minato would have been able to defeat him had the former been alive, we have seen both Itachi and Sasuke beat him with quite a bit of ease in his current form, and Hanzo was able to him along with the other two Sannins at the same time during that past period. So even using Orochimaru as a base, we have several ninjas that are able to content with him in that feat and can assume that none on the other Kages would have much problem with a mortal Orochimaru.

That's completely flawed reasoning. You claim they haven't shown anything to beat him, yet are completely ignoring Sarutobi didn't show anything to beat them either. using their Edo appearance as evidence is pointless, considering they barely did anything. Not to mention that since that time, we have been told quite bit more about them, like how Tobirama created Edo Tensei, had a space/time technique, what Mokuton can really do through Yamato, and how Hashirama was able to contend and defeat an EMS strengthen Madara. Meanwhile, what new information have we been given on Sarutobi? Nothing. In fact, he's not even being mentioned any more, instead Minato and Hashirama have taken the place of being most praised in Part Two.

Like I stated before, there's no reason to believe such a thing because it was never shown or implied in the manga. Just because it wasn't said that he couldn't doesn't mean you should assume he can. By that logic, you would be assuming every ninja can use all five elements, since it was never stated they couldn't. Heck, I bet Sasuke can use Edo Tensei and Shiki Fuujin, since it was never said he couldn't. Faulty logic, especially since to use it you still have to change what Orochiamru said. Nagato's a whole different situation, because the Rinnegan is connected to the Sharingan and has already been shown to use one Sharingan based technique. It wouldn't be impossible for the Rinnegan to suddenly show a superior version of Susanoo like it's done with Izanagi.