PDA

View Full Version : Explanation of Rayleigh & Kizaru's Leg Clash



Lord Rayleigh
February 06, 2009, 02:32 PM
An answer I decide to do after a post of Imotorar about Rayleigh and Kizary mystery :
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/511/18-19/

Imotorar, it is possible that Rayleigh stopped Kizaru normally, without Haki or something else. I'm going to explain it and what I think about this picture.

When Kizaru kicks someone with his leg, we can say from the pictures his leg is not on logia mode but on normal mode. But it is true Kizaru's kick uses the light speed of his DF : it's why we see some kind of " light " at the end of his foot : it's like when you photograph someone running : the photo is blurred ; it has nothing to do with a leg in logia mode, it is just a consequence of a light speed DF movement.
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/509/14/
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/510/05/
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/510/06/

Indeed, if it was in logia mode, the kick would have no effect on the " victim ". You will agree that what hurts in kizaru's kick is the fact that the victim meets a solid body (the Admiral's leg) at a high speed. The clash between the two solid bodies explains the shock and the beaten victim.
And a light kick (I mean the leg in light form) would do nothing on people. When a sumbeam " touchs " you (at the speed of the light too), there is no clash.
With the equation E = MC², you can see that if M = 0 (with a no solid leg for example), MC² = 0 and E = 0. So, if E = 0, you're not injured. Thx A. Einstein

So, we should agree that when Kizaru kicks, his leg is in a normal mode.
If you want an explanation for the huge explosion of a Mangrove, it was just linked to the fact he created a beam coming out his leg while kicking it. So, his leg doesn't turn into logia mode, it stays a solid body and he just creates the matter of light like Mr 3 does with his DF.
example of a beam kick : you see, in a beam kick, light emerging from the feet and then, a beam coming out of it.
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/507/16/
there is no light from the feet before the clash on a normal kick of Kizaru.

So, now the question is why rayleigh managed to stop Kizaru's kick and not Brook ?

If you look at this picture, you'll see that Brook used his sword against Kirazu. But his sword went through the Admiral because Brook try to touch Kizaru (which is logiq as the Admiral is a logia).
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/511/17/
So, if Rayleigh kicked Kizaru, his leg would go through Kizaru because is body turn into logia mode (which is logiq because he is a logia).

But if Kizaru kicks a non logia user and if the non logia user is enough strong to support and block his kick, the non logia user won't be kicked away and the kick will be stopped because it could not go through the non logia user because his body is always solid (which is logiq because he is not a logia).
Then, the leg of the logia user will turn into logia mode because of the strong clash between the solid man and the former solid leg (which is logic because Kizaru is a logia). And the non logia user will stand where he was at the same place he was, before being kicked, and Kizaru will be in front of him with a leg turned in logia mode. (It's only possible because the non logia user is stronger than the Admiral, otherwise, he would have been kicked away).

The difference between this two cases is the fact that in the first Kizaru is taking a kick and in the other Kizaru is kicking and doesn't manage to kick away someone. So, in the one, Kizary is the defender and in the other the attacker.

So, Rayleigh could not have kicked him or he would have go through him.
So, we can say that the one kicking is Kizaru (indeed he was going to kick Zoro) but Rayleigh block his kick with his foot while the Admiral was pulling down his leg into Zoro's direction.
As there was a clash and Rayleigh managed to block with his feet Kizaru's kick, his leg could not go towards Zoro (and through Rayleigh by the same way) and his logia protects him, so his leg turned into logia mode and the matter spreaded around the point of the clash in all directions.

Now, take a good look on the picture. Isn't it what happened ?
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/511/18-19/
Moreover, if Rayleigh was kicking (attacking) and not blocking (defending), he would have jumped (like Sanji often does) and his second leg would not have been on the floor. The second leg of Kizaru is only on Zoro's back because he was keeping Zoro and could not move to do it.
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/511/17/.

It's not really difficult to imagine the scene with this point of view. Rayleigh has just blocked Kizaru's kick and taked it instead of Zoro. The fact people doesn't find a solution to it, was because they were thinking Rayleigh was the one kicking.
With this explanation, which works logically, it is only a normal defense but working because Rayleigh is super strong (100 times stronger than Luffy). With an another person, the kick would have work and the leg would not have turnt into logia mode.

I would have liked to explain it in french. It would have been really easier for me.
I hope now you understand know what happened and this page and why.

Imitorar
February 06, 2009, 04:02 PM
For reference, my actual opinion on the matter of what Rayleigh did is here (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1000992#post1000992). I don't think that anything has changed since then.

What you say works, but you presuppose several things that aren't necessarily true. Firstly, you say that there is no light coming out of Kizaru's legs before he kicks someone. But in your own example (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/510/05/) there clearly IS a light trail behind Kizaru's leg. He didn't turn all of his leg into light, but certainly at least the base of it, because he can't move at light speed in his normal state, just as Ace can't melt things by touching them in his normal state. Kizaru had to have transformed before kicking.

Secondly, Kizaru cannot create light the way Mr. 3 can create wax, because the Gleam Gleam Fruit is a Logia, and the Wax Wax Fruit is a Paramecia. Logia cannot create their element, they can only turn themselves into it (http://arlongpark.net/Manga/SBS/20). Therefore, the Beam must be Kizaru actually turning part of himself into light.

Thirdly, you suppose an awful lot about the nature of Logia Fruits by saying that they would automatically assume their elemental forms if faced with an insurmountable obstacle. In fact, that seems to be downright false (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/158/06/). Even if Rayleigh were defending and blocking, Kizaru's leg could have stayed solid, and would have, assuming that he didn't turn them into light of his own will. It's reflexive at best.

And fourthly, you suppose that Rayleigh would have been jumping if he were kicking. First of all, not all kicks are done from a jump. In fact, to make sure that Kizaru didn't move his foot back, it was probably best that Rayleigh stay supported by the ground. And it's EXTREMELY conceivable that Rayleigh just ran up to Kizaru and put his left foot up to move or block Kizaru's leg. There is no reason to assume that Rayleigh would have HAD to jump if he were the attacker, he could just as easily have attacked while standing. You are hinging your idea on a probability, one whose conclusive occurence has no evidence in its favor.

Based on these assumptions, you seem to be trying to prove that Kizaru was actually going to kill Zoro with a kick, not a Beam, and explain the ensuing Beam by saying that it wasn't really a Beam, it was Kizaru's leg of light spreading around in shock, because he'd naturally have turned into a Logia if Rayleigh blocked his attack. But if you look at the page in question (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/511/18-19/), you'll see that it doesn't at all seem as if Kizaru's leg scattered. It looks very much like Rayleigh moved his leg so that his Beam went in a different direction. Besides, as I said, light does come from his leg before he kicks, and either way, the light around the base of his foot looked more like the light around the base of his foot before a Beam than the light around the base of his foot before a kick.

Based on how the actual panel looks and the fact that your idea hinges upon assumptions that seem unfounded at best and outright wrong at worst, I find your theory untenable.

Razh
February 06, 2009, 07:39 PM
So, I'm curious. I haven't read the posts completely.
But I'm pretty sure there was no explanation for Rayleigh being able to cut Kizaru's cheek.

So?

Magellan
February 07, 2009, 02:18 AM
Explanation of Rayleigh & Kizaru's legs clash


It's a really good theory but utimately it's just a theory. We havn't been directly told the answer to the leg clash but we've been slowly hinted throughout the chapters with all this "haki" talk. Unfortunately we can make almost any guess as to how the leg clash was triggered and can't be completely proven wrong... yet.

So my theory is the leg clash was a trip out of Luffy's from some bad meat.
Prove me wrong.

Lord Rayleigh
February 07, 2009, 06:34 AM
Imotorar, my answer is really long ... but I have to correct, clarify my theory.



When you proove that Kizaru tried to kill Zoro with a beam kick, I totally agree with you. Indeed, after Rayleigh stopped Kizaru's move, we see the explosion of the beam. So, I didn't mean the beam was not the beam, the light spreading I talked was referring to the point of the clash, not the beam.

So, when I was refering to the beam kick, it wasn't to say this one wasn't a beam kick, it was to say that a beam is as solid as a normal kick because in the clash moment, this is a beam kick. So, for my theory to work, I need a beam kick in a solid form. So, I to explain the beam kick was just an utilisation of his DF coming out of his solid foot. I tried to show the difference between the two : the beam kick has an intense light before Kizaru kicks someone whereas in the normal kick the intense light appears at the clash moment.
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/511/16/
The intense light before the kick happened.
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/510/05/
The intense light when the kick happened.

For a point, I was a little wrong about the " as solid as a normal kick ". You said, Logia users can't create their element, they can just transform into it.
I will correct something, Logia users can create their element but they have to be a little transformed to do it. I mean when they attack, with their element, they are not throwing a part of their body on the ennemy (indeed after the attacks, we don't see the element coming back in the logia user). It comes out of their body and it creates their element.
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/440/14/
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/441/15/
In this example, we see that only the fingers of Ace are in a logia mode when he uses fire bullets. And the rest of his body is in normal mode.
So, to create your element, you need to have at least a part of your body in logia mode. It's why a normal kick is not as solid as a beam kick and I made a little mistake.
So, in the beam kick, the beam comes out of the foot, and on the image, the foot is with an intense light. We deduct, the extremity of the foot of Kizaru is in logia mode but the rest of his leg and body is in normal mode. This detail is the most important thing because the point of the clash between Kizaru and Rayleigh's legs is not on the extremity of Kizaru's foot.

So, the rest of his leg is in normal mode/solid (one of the thing I needed for my theory to work).
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/511/17/
You can see by your own eyes, that only the foot is in logia mode and the rest is normal : we see his trousers. An another argument, if all his leg had been in logia mode, we would have been all his leg with intense light.
Eneru has already seen us what was a total logia mode, and you'll agree that it is really different of the normal mode. His leg on normal mode was not the same as leg on normal mode, the same for his arm etc ...
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/298/08/
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/298/11/
Moreover, we had a general survey of Kizaru in total logia mode when he leaves the cannonball
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/506/19/
and when he flies
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/510/05/
he is only a light in total logia mode.

Now, I have to correct something you think I said because you misunderstandood me.
When I said, " the light spreading out of the clash in all directions " in this image,
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/511/18-19/
it was not the beam I was talking to, it was the exact point of the clash between Kizaru's leg and Rayleigh's foot. Indeed, you see a lot of matter coming out of this point. This matter coming out of this leg prooves the part of Kizaru's leg that touched Rayleigh's foot turns into logia mode.
So, saying that Haki or something else we don't know has prevented Kizaru from turning his leg in logia mode is wrong because this point of his leg turns into logia mode (*).
So, I have thought about what happened and I explain in my first post it will only be possible (by logic) if Rayleigh blocks the leg, otherwise, Rayleigh's leg would have go through him ; I won't re-say the all explanation. And an Haki explanation which would negative the power of the DF is wrong (*).

As you said, I have talked about probability, I analyse the posture of Rayleigh at the moment, the two legs touched. And I didn't want to mean if he was the attacker, he would jump. I wanted to mean that this position looks more like a defensive posture. Indeed, Rayleigh puts a big part of his weight on his leg on the floor because his other leg is really high. So, this position is more useful if you want to block a kick because you leans on the ground.
So, it was an other argument for the idea Rayleigh was blocking and not kicking.
Moreover, we all know that Kizaru was kicking and Rayleigh stopped him. So, all this thing proove more for me it was a defensive posture. Plus, in my theory, as I said, it is only possible to have such a result in the two legs clash if Rayleigh is blocking Kizaru's leg.

You said, my theory works if an another thing works : the body of the logia users can turn in logia mode unconsciously.
You said that for the moment, it was more proven that it was wrong than right using a counter-example
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/158/06/
I'm sorry but here I totally disagree with you. Your counter-example is not valid at all.
Luffy could have physically injured Smoker because Smoker always wears a kairouseki sword on his back. In this scene, Luffy hits the kairouseki sword between Smoker's back and his head. I will show you pictures of the same chapter to proove you it was possible thanks to kairouseki (sword).
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/158/05/
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/158/08/
You can see very well the sword.
And even on the picture of the counter-example, you see the handle of the sword.
And we all know that Smoker'sword is in kairouseki, it is said in the Logue Town adventure.
So this counter-example is not valid. Smoker's body could not have turned in logia mode automatically because of the kairouseki that negatives the power of the DF users.

I will correct something : my theory works if the part injured of the body turns automatically in logia mode.
In this page, Kizaru's arm is cut but we see light coming out of the body, not blood, which means that the interior of his arm has turned into light. Otherwise, he would have been beaten if this DF doesn't activate unconsciously.
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/509/19/
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/510/04/
And here, he seems to have not even realise what happened because he worried about the mini den-den mushi
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/298/01/
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/507/15/
In this two cases, where I'd say the DF activates unconsciously, the matter of the element is projected outside of the body if you look very well.
And when the logia user turns his body in logia mode by himself, there is no projection of his element outside of his body : look with Brook's attack on Kizaru
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/511/17/

So, I think the projection of the matter is due to an automatically transformation due itself by the impact on the normal body (which transforms to be not injured). And the non projection is when the body is turned in logia mode before the attack " touches " the logia user (which is a consciously transformation).
Similar way with Ace, his body turns into logia mode when he is " touched " without the time to turn himself in logia mode. Indeed, it seems that he doesn't have te time to realise he was being attacked, above all with the sniper surprise bullets. But I don't image where he sees an attack coming and he is already in logia mode.
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/298/01/
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/440/13/
Similar way with Eneru and I've got two different cases like with Kizaru.
Here Eneru didn't know what the creature would do, and there is a projection
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/441/01/
Here he knew he was going to be attacked and no projection (indeed the guy was already trying to injure him before this moment. So, I suppose he turns consciously and before the attack.
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/264/13/
Similar with Crocodile
Here a conscious transformation.
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/177/14/
Here an automatically transformation. The sand is spreading in all directions from the impacts.
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/177/15/
You can also see the difference between the two causes of the turning in a logia mode in a fight of an OAV : Luffy vs Gaspard.

Isn't it an another theory about distinction between automatically transformation and conscious transformation ? lol.

I think I corrected what wasn't cleared and was false and it seems the theory appears to be more possible than the first time : it is a normal defensive posture, possible because Rayleigh is able with his strenght to block such a strong leg. And for the moment, the Haki theory would only possible with the Kizaru's injured cheek.

Dice
February 07, 2009, 07:44 AM
With the equation E = MC², you can see that if M = 0 (with a no solid leg for example), MC² = 0 and E = 0. So, if E = 0, you're not injured. Thx A. Einstein


Well actually photons only have no rest mass. But photons "carry" an energie and you can assign a mass to it. As long photons are moving at the speed of light (they can only move at the speed of light, no matter what) they have a mass, so light is a "victim" of gravity too.
I'm only writing thisd because I'm kinda bored...

Fox666
February 07, 2009, 07:58 AM
A user doesn't need to turn in Logia to attack. He can just produce that element without transforming their bodies.

Either, well, actually it's isn't 100% that Logia won't be hit. It is yet "possible" to Rayleigh being using just a Seastone sword.
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/158/06/ (Luffy hit Smoker from behing)
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/158/09/ (Smoke hit Ace from behing)
(Either Smoker weapon is only covered with Seastone in one part. It seriously looks like to have nothing to do with Seastone)
Both scenes are surprise attacks afterall. It's not 100% sure about how unconscious a Logia is turned in the element, but it may had to be with what are you expecting, Smoker reeeally doesn't expect that, and either Ace is a bit dumb.

Lord Rayleigh
February 07, 2009, 08:48 AM
Ilovefoxes :
- For the moment, it appers to be that a logia has to turn at least a minimum part of his body to create his element, you just have to look the pictures. Ace is the greatest example, the extremities of his fingers are in logia mode when he shoots fire bullets or a fire rayon.
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/440/14/
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/441/15/
If you look well, you can notice that there is fire on it and be don't see the extremity of his fingers in normal mode before he shoots fire.
But with Kizaru, it is right that we seem to see the extremity of the fingers
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/510/07/
However, the fact that a logia has to turn at least a part of his body to create element or not doesn't affect my theory (it would mean that the extremity of the foot of his Kizaru could be/is solid too, which is not a problem at all because my theory works if Kizaru's leg where the clash occured was solid before it occured)
- for Luffy attack on Smoker, we are sure that the kairouseki sword negatived the automatically Smoker's back transformation as the kairouseki touched his back because of Luffy.
- for Smoker hitting Ace. The only moment Ace should have automatically turned in logia mode is when his head touched the ground because it met an insurmontable obstacle. If you look at the picture, we don't see what happened to his head because there was a lot of dust. And after, he has no injures, just some dust in the face.

In all the case, the point of the leg of Kizaru where the clash with Rayleigh's foot occured, shows us that his solid body turns into logia form with the matter of his df spreading all over. So, a thing like Haki which would negative the power of DF appears to be impossible because his power hasn't been negatived.

Moreover, you see the difference here, with the matter spreading, which is not the case with Brook's sword and Kizaru's chest clash. I think this is because he turns in logia mode before the clash happened (consciously), so the sword of Brook could not have pushed a solid body, because it wasn't solid.
With the case with Rayleigh, the clash would have occured with two solid points, so, then one turns into logia mode because of the strong clash (automatically) and the matter spreads all over.
In this two cases, the cause of the first transformation is due to a previous decision, in the secondth to the clash itself.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Dice : Indeed, photons have energy. But here what strikes is the meeting between two solid bodies with one at a high speed. Otherwise, the light would have been done nothing on you, because you are a solid body.
And we can always find exception of no solid matter that injures people, like toxic gaz or laser (but this one should be due to the extreme concentration of heat).
But with the " normal kick " of Kizaru is it just a super fast normal clash.
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/509/14/
If you look at this picture, you see that the kick affects normally the body and don't go throught him like a laser or a beam would have done.
And you see the difference with this sort of attack.
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/510/07/

RichardMNixon
February 07, 2009, 04:24 PM
Most of it is TL;DNR, but a few things I saw that I wanted to point out.

Imitorar: I would disagree that logias cannot create their element, Enel, Ace, and Blackbeard spewed out a great deal of lightning, fire, and darkness respectively.

LR: My friend with a physics degree really likes to point out that light has momentum even though it has no observable mass. Newtonian physics don't work at light speed. E=mc^2 does not mean what you think it means; it is to point out that mass is only extremely dense energy, they are essentially interchangeable (nuclear explosions are mass becoming energy (uranium fissioned into two smaller atoms has less mass than it did as uranium)). Also note that if light had no energy as you say, it would not be able to warm us and solar panels would not work.

Dice: Never thought about it that way, that's pretty cool, explains how it can get sucked into a black hole.

Razh: I agree that cutting Kizaru's light-beam-movement remains an item more difficult to refute.

Imitorar
February 08, 2009, 01:01 AM
RichardMNixon: Argue all you want that Logia's can create their element. But know that you're arguing with Oda. Read the SBS I linked to.

Lord Rayleigh: I'll be honest, I still don't think that Rayleigh was necessarily defending, the movement can be interpreted either way. Plus, you said that Kizaru was obviously about to kick, but since he was gonna use Beam, I'd say that he almost definitely was not going to kick, because he wouldn't have needed the Beam if he was.

Also, you said that Smoker's jutte is why he didn't transform when Luffy bumped into him, but he was wearing his jacket. Clothing can block the effect of Seastone, not to mention that Ace didn't assume his elemental form either, so Logia users really don't naturally take their elemental forms. Besides, Crocodile said that he was unique in that he kept himself in his elemental form at all times. Ener and Kizaru could assume it without willing to, but they have to actively maintain the reflex, wheareas for Crocodile it's always second nature.

And a side-note, my username is spelled with an "i" after the "m", not an "o".

RichardMNixon
February 08, 2009, 03:03 PM
RichardMNixon: Argue all you want that Logia's can create their element. But know that you're arguing with Oda. Read the SBS I linked to.

I don't mind arguing with Oda if he says something contradictory. For starters though, the original question was an either/or and Oda answered it almost as a "both." He can't make fire, but he can turn his fist into fire and he can make his flaming fist bigger? He's still creating fire. And, what other explanation can you give for the bullets he shot at van Auger or the fairie fire of dai entei against BB?

Aokiji's ice time capsule, Ace's projectile attacks, Enel's thunderdragons and godblasts of lightning from the sky, Crocodile's sandstorms, Kizaru's lasers, etc.: many examples of logia users creating/controlling/expanding their element. Enel's sky blasts didn't even physically originate from his person as far as we know. Occam's razor vs. ambiguous SBS, your ball.

P.S. Is this getting off topic?

Lord Rayleigh
February 08, 2009, 06:57 PM
Imitorar :

if Rayleigh was not blocking but attacking, then, I would say that his solid leg turns automatically in logia mode. It's why he has been blocked : Rayleigh has " injured " the solid leg, wanting to stop it and then it spreaded in all directions.
It is just a normal attack like this one.
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/177/17/
You'll agree that this attack of Luffy put the head of Croc on the ground even if it transforms in logia mode : he has been able to change the position of Crocodile's body.
Here, it is the same kind of attack with a conscious transformation (transformation done before the " clash "). Luffy has not been able to push Croc's body.
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/177/14/
So, indeed, it is possible Rayleigh was attacking and has changed the position of Kizaru's leg (it's why the beam didn't explode on Zoro's body).
But, the leg had to be solid before being kicked as I said, and it was, as there was matter spreading in all directions after the clash.

So, this is just a normal movement (attacking or blocking, both possible) Rayleigh did at high speed.
And the Haki theory is impossible because Kizaru's leg spreaded matter after the clash like in this picture.
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/177/16/
And we know that if it nullifies the DF power, it could have not spreaded. Moreover, Luffy's attack is just normal.

The next question should be how Rayleigh manage to cut Kizaru's cheek as Razh said.

RichardMNixon
February 08, 2009, 10:55 PM
But, the leg had to be solid before being kicked as I said, and it was, as there was matter spreading in all directions after the clash.

The next question should be how Rayleigh manage to cut Kizaru's cheek as Razh said.

It didn't spread in all directions, it made one explosion in the direction his kick was redirected towards. http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/511/18-19/

As for the cheek, I don't think there can be anything there but pure speculation. I'd forward haki though as my personal opinion.

Fox666
February 09, 2009, 12:26 AM
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/177/17/
You'll agree that this attack of Luffy put the head of Croc on the ground even if it transforms in logia mode : he has been able to change the position of Crocodile's body.Well, that's an significant argument.

RichardMNixon
February 09, 2009, 01:32 AM
Well, that's an significant argument.

I don't really see the significance. In the latter he dispersed part of croc's body (and as far as I can tell in the line of your arguments, he moved croc's shoulder and abdomen); in the former he dispersed the whole thing. Croc disappearing and forming up somewhere else I think was just a "haha, there's nothing you can do" sort of move.

And you're saying you can only move the person if they aren't expecting the attack? So then you also have to assume croc was not expecting the gomu gomu no axe. Occam's razor doesn't like this one either. I'd say all of Luffy's non-wet attacks were equally ineffective against croc.

As a sidenote, when he ate half of croc, I suppose his mouth was not moist enough to solidify croc with half his body missing and one hit kill him.

Fox666
February 09, 2009, 01:55 AM
Basically a Logia doesn't being hurt doesn't mean he won't be thrown away. Rayleigh doesn't "hit" Kizaru, he only push and Kizaru missed the target. Other than that, Kizaru was sitting his another leg on Zoro so he wouldn't move (that was very clear), and Kizaru won't be able to keep his body totally in elemental form like when Enel done.

A different theory is when Luffy hit Smoker or Smoker smashed Ace face on the floor, that was a surprise attack, and if it was a spear they would bleed. As Crocodile said he was unique for being able to turn in elemental form when hit.

Those are two different theories, and both can explain Rayleigh seastone sandal.

Chompp
February 09, 2009, 05:34 AM
At first I have to say that Smoker's jutte has Kairouseki only on the tip so it has nothing to do why Smoker doesn't turn to smoke when Luffy hits him in the bar.

One thing that supports the theory that logias can not turn to their element automatically on their own is that when Wiper uses Kairouseki on Ener and hits him with Reject dial if the body of the logia user would turn to their element automatically Ener shouldn't have got any damage then.


Besides, Crocodile said that he was unique in that he kept himself in his elemental form at all times.

As Crocodile said he was unique for being able to turn in elemental form when hit.
I just little time ago read trough Alabasta arc again and I don't remember anything like that. Could someone point me the page to that?

Personally I would like if logias really need to put their powers on and off and so on, but there really are cases supporting both theories so I'm not going more into it now... I really hope that Oda answers to that sometime.

Couldn't it be that Rayleigh was able to stop Kizaru's kick because Kizaru was surprised by Rayleigh and thus didn't have the time to turn his leg in light before Rayleigh's kick hit him. The light that we see when their legs touch could be Kizaru defending himself by turning his leg to light when he realised that someone kicked him. (To me I always thought it was just the effect of impact, nothing more.)


RichardMNixon: Argue all you want that Logia's can create their element. But know that you're arguing with Oda. Read the SBS I linked to.
I agree with RichardMNixon on this; on that SBS imo we can't say for sure that logias can't make their element. And 'cause the manga shows cases that would higly imply like they really can make more of their element, I'm going with that.

RichardMNixon
February 09, 2009, 08:32 AM
Basically a Logia doesn't being hurt doesn't mean he won't be thrown away.

A different theory is when Luffy hit Smoker or Smoker smashed Ace face on the floor, that was a surprise attack, and if it was a spear they would bleed. As Crocodile said he was unique for being able to turn in elemental form when hit.

But why couldn't Brook or Usopp push him away? Rayleigh had something special going on.

I agree they can be hit by surprise, but that still doesn't explain Rayleigh hitting him with a sword.

Fox666
February 09, 2009, 09:14 AM
Rayleigh experience. Not Brook or Usopp know how deal with a Logia, their attacks passed through Kizaru, while Rayleigh pushed him.

Lord Rayleigh
February 09, 2009, 03:40 PM
And you're saying you can only move the person if they aren't expecting the attack?
more exactly, if the logia user doesn't turn in logia mode before you " touches " him and of course if he doesn't move by himself ; so, if the body turned in logia mode because of the clash.
here is a transformation before an attack, Luffy has not been able to push his body.
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/177/14/
the same here with Brook attack.
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/511/17/
And I'm not also saying you always manage to move the person, it depends on strengh and position of the defense BUT it is a condition.

And when I was talking about the changement of the position of Crocodile's body, I was not referring to the next page when Croc said " it won't work ". The changement you said is indeed a Croc movement but you are not talking the good one. I was referring to the image I posted in link : Luffy has put his head on the ground. Do you see the difference between stand up and eating the ground ?

And when I'm talking about matter spreading in all directions, it is not the explosion of the beam. It is the picture of the two legs' clash. Don't you matter coming out of the Kizaru's leg's part Rayleigh's foot touched ?
Like this one
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/177/16/
This is of course spreading in all the directions it can goes. That is a proof this point turned in logia mode and it has to be a normal kick (so seastone sandal are impossible).


Chompp : Wiper can injure Enel because the power DF were nullified by seastone. So, all of his logia power were gone. It has nothing to do with an automatical transformation or a previous transformation.


Ilovefoxes : Yes, Kizaru has not been injured by Rayleigh's foot (it seems obvious with the matter coming out of where the leg has been touched by Rayleigh's foot). It has just turned into logia mode to prevent an injure like a normal logia DF does. But it prevents him from manage to put this beam on Zoro.
Thx for having seen the similitude with this picture. and here it is a normal attack.
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/177/17/

RichardMNixon
February 10, 2009, 01:00 AM
That burst of light from Rayleigh's kick is nothing unique, here it is with two swords hitting: http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/401/07/

http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/177/17/ I don't see his head on the ground in that, I see him completely disintegrating and reforming elsewhere.

To boil down what you're saying to something much simpler: sometimes a strike can move a logia user's body but not hurt them and sometimes it can't, correct? As an example you say Luffy's stomp did not move Croc but his axe did because Croc's head was gone? Why would the axe do it and not the stomp?

I think haki is a much, much simpler explanation.

Lord Rayleigh
February 10, 2009, 12:39 PM
That burst of light from Rayleigh's kick is nothing unique, here it is with two swords hitting: http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/401/07/
The burst of light come from the part of Kizaru's leg which turns in logia mode because of the foot clash. Of course, there are other bursts of light or things similar to light.


http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/177/17/ I don't see his head on the ground in that, I see him completely disintegrating and reforming elsewhere.
His head is under Luffy's foot. The head as turned in sand and the sand is crushed on the ground by Luffy. Plus, you will agree that the position of the body has changed and there is no sand head at the same place Crocodile's normal head was.


To boil down what you're saying to something much simpler: sometimes a strike can move a logia user's body but not hurt them and sometimes it can't, correct? As an example you say Luffy's stomp did not move Croc but his axe did because Croc's head was gone? Why would the axe do it and not the stomp?

I think haki is a much, much simpler explanation.
Yes, sometimes, you can move a logia's user body but you cannot injure them (if you don't use their weakness). In general, you can't move a logia user if he turns in logia mode before you touched him (it is a conscious transformation) : to do such a thing means you are able to move the matter of the logia df itself which could be possible maybe for sand but not for light for example. And you can move a logia user if he turns in logia mode because of your attack : the direction of the matter of the logia is affected by the physic force of your attack and goes where the body was supposed to go if the person hasn't been a logia user : to do such a things means you are able to move the body of the logia user and the matter follows the physic force the body was supposed to be under. The difference is just that the body is turned in his logia mode. But you can move it, if your attack has enough strengh.
For example, if I hammer slowly a knife into Crocodile's body (and if he doesn't do a previous transformation), it will turn the part of his body touched in logia mode but he won't move because . It depends on the strenght of the impact.

But, with Kizaru, a previous transformation seems to be like just light, so you're not able to touch it, as Brook tried. When it turns into logia mode because of the clash, the matter spreads in all directions because it is affected by the movement of Rayleigh's foot.
If it is Haki, you'll agree that Haki doesn't prevent Logia users to turn in logia mode because the point of the Admiral's leg touched has turned into logia mode.

Chompp
February 11, 2009, 06:22 AM
Chompp : Wiper can injure Enel because the power DF were nullified by seastone. So, all of his logia power were gone. It has nothing to do with an automatical transformation or a previous transformation.
But Kairouseki is said to be quite like water on how it will affect DF users and when Luffy was thrown in the water by Arlong he could still be streched, he just couldn't do it himself. Sometime ago I tried to find some info on how Kairouseki affects DF users 'cause I had the impression it nullifies DF powers but I couldn't find anything. So I'm going with the idea that it effects the same way as water meaning it just takes away the control of your DF not nullifying it completely. So when Wiper used Kairouseki on Ener he just took away his ability to control his powers and if the logia powers were automatically turning to your element when threatened his body should have turned to electricity when the impact of the Reject dial hit him even when contact to Kairouseki, but it didn't so that's why I said it would seem to give more proofs to the theory that logia powers need to be turned on and off by the user himself.

Razh
February 11, 2009, 06:37 AM
Of course. Luffy is constantly rubber while logias have to transform into their element.
But those powers can be trained, to the point that logia turns into his element as a reflex. Like Crocodile was able to do.

Yans86
February 11, 2009, 06:46 AM
Kairouseki nullify DF...
Haki hit the spirit,indipendently from the material/element.
Body and spirit are united so if u hurt the spirit,the damage is reflected on the body.
If u don't have a strong spirit,and u are hit by a burst of spirit,ur spirit is hitted like from a punch,and without the spirit sustaining the body,the body will crumble....

Strong will and strong spirit are the same or strictly related?!!!!so.....

ex Luffy normal state haki 200(not manifested)
max state haki+ raw power 5000 (a guess)
raw power 500
blast of haki 80

Average person: normal state haki 10-40 so Haki burst of Luffy is stronger people faint...
Kuja warrior:normal state from 40-120 (someone faint others no)

ex. Rayleigh: burst of haki 150
Marine normal haki state:from 20-60(I expect them not having such a strong will/haki)
Kid,Law e co(if u want strawhats too...):normal haki state from 150(guy almost fainted)to x points......no one of them fainted and we know they r strong people,but the marine fainted,even if we assume that the burst was unconditionally for everyone!

RichardMNixon
February 11, 2009, 07:19 PM
His head is under Luffy's foot. The head as turned in sand and the sand is crushed on the ground by Luffy. Plus, you will agree that the position of the body has changed and there is no sand head at the same place Crocodile's normal head was.

If it is Haki, you'll agree that Haki doesn't prevent Logia users to turn in logia mode because the point of the Admiral's leg touched has turned into logia mode.

I maintain that there is zero difference between your two Croc examples. How is moving the sand of his head different from moving the sand of his shoulder? You're looking into this way too much. You're assuming Croc wanted his head to stay there and Luffy pushed his head to the ground against his will, which I still disagree with. There is no head there; you could just as easily say the head disintegrated as soon as Luffy touched Croc and if Luffy is crushing anything it's Croc's feet.

I'd agree that haki doesn't stop that (I agree with Yans86 that it probably functions by hitting the opponent's haki with your own), but I repeat that the burst of light at the site of Ray's kick is also completely insignificant as I showed the same sort of burst appearing between a sword clash.

Luffy1045
February 11, 2009, 10:15 PM
Seriously I love how there is so many theories, but in the end we all know the author did not think all of that XD.
But I like theories it's fun to see smart people from time to time.
All I can say is that Rayleigh just used his Haki to deflect the attack, because just before Kizaru was about to finish Zoro, a lot of the straw Hat crew attacked him and it didn't do much good.
[hr]
Another thing. I really think that Haki can stop a Logia from using his powers. If you read forward on, when Luffy fights the Boa sisters, they hit him with punches, etc. and he feels it very well. http://http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/519/10/ This is my link to show you. I hope it helps some people understand.

Fox666
February 12, 2009, 06:04 AM
Hitting Luffy only mean the usage of super-human strength. Either we know Haki can do that.

Even if Rayleigh actually hit Kizaru using Haki, I don't think it is because "it hit the soul", but because it destabilize the user mind and slow down his reflects to turn in Logia.

Chompp
February 12, 2009, 02:29 PM
But those powers can be trained, to the point that logia turns into his element as a reflex. Like Crocodile was able to do.
I asked this earlier and I would appreciate if someone could point me the page where it says so 'cause last time I read the Alabasta arc I didn't find anything like that.


Kairouseki nullify DF...
Could you prove that? Last time I tried to check I didn't find anything, just things that says it is same like water. Like this (http://read.mangashare.com/One-Piece/chapter-169/page010.html).

Sorry, about my offtopicness.

Yans86
February 13, 2009, 07:19 AM
Smoker in the cage.....smoker weapon against Luffy,all DF in ID........against Enel.....u can have all the prove u want :-D

hisoga
February 14, 2009, 10:07 AM
sorry but i think rayleigh actually kick kizaru..only added with wat we call haki.. for me, 'haki' is base on 'qi' in chinese... it is an inner energy.. i dont know science or any logical explanation but everybody have inner energy.. for easy explanation it is like dragon ball.. everybody have different physical strength and 'qi' level.. the bigger the physical strength the bigger the 'qi'..but unlike physical,'qi' is much harder to gain and to learn or control.. so even if someone is very strong physically that doesnt mean he can use 'qi'.. but if someone know and hardly train him/her self to use 'qi', even if he/she is weak physically, he/she can be stronger than somebody that have equal physical strength...

i also think that this haki thing is the way of oda explain to us why the logia user like ace,aokiji,kizaru and other that can use their fruit power to the limit and have really great fighting skills cannot be the world strongest or pirate king.. they are a logia fruit user that not only depend on their logia ability like crocodile or enel but also have really great fighting skills.. for aokiji and kizaru i only assume coz they are an admiral and aokiji can take luffy punch 100%..

that is wat i thought..sorry 4 my really bad english and sorry 4 weird theory..

hisoga
February 14, 2009, 09:58 PM
haki = energy and logia =element= energy
so energy can fight another energy...hahahaha.. just kidding

Chompp
February 15, 2009, 07:20 AM
Smoker in the cage.....smoker weapon against Luffy,all DF in ID........against Enel.....u can have all the prove u want :-D
You didn't quite understand what I meant. Those cases you mentioned doesn't prove that it nullifies DF powers; it can just as easily be the case that it just takes away the ability to control your powers but still be that you actually have those powers within you. Nullifying and not able to control it are two different things ;)

GeckoMoria
February 16, 2009, 08:42 PM
2 things

1. how do u explain rayleigh's cutting kizaru's face and their swords clashing?
2. do u rly think oda would make such a complicated reason as yours to this whole "people hitting logias problem"?

of course you'll just say "well nothing is proven yet so im not wrong"

Chompp
February 17, 2009, 03:56 AM
Are you talking to me? Actually I'm just talking offtopic 'cause I don't much think about the Kizaru Rayleigh thing (Though I suggested in one of my posts that maybe it could be that Kizaru was just surprised by Rayleigh that was just half serious comment. As far as I'm concerned I think it was Haki why Rayleigh could stop Kizary.). I didn't mean to take this "people hitting logias problem" this far but I got responses to my post so I felt I should answer to those.

Lord Rayleigh
February 18, 2009, 05:21 AM
You didn't quite understand what I meant. Those cases you mentioned doesn't prove that it nullifies DF powers; it can just as easily be the case that it just takes away the ability to control your powers but still be that you actually have those powers within you. Nullifying and not able to control it are two different things ;)

What do you mean by have those powers within you ? Nullifies the DF power does not take the power out of the DF user : the DF user has always the sea curse.
It depends on what do you mean by control : for me, the DF power can be used with a mental impulsion, like when you decide to rise your hand for example (and automatically too for some DF)
So, this has nothing to do with control even if the kairouseki weaken the DF user. When, they are all inside the cage in the Alabasta Arc, they are not weaken if they don't touche the cage (only Luffy tried to touch the cage and became ill-at-ease), and Smoker cannot use his logia power. If it was simply a problem of control, Smoker will have to jump on the cage, and he will turn in logia mode automatically (without control) to be not injured. Moreover, it is was a control problem, we would have seen Smoker tries to control his logia but they don't try to control it because it is as if the power were gone.
So, I think this is more something that nullifies the DF power but there should be some degree (I think the Logias are more affected). For me, with a metaphor (yeah !), it's like if their DF power were in cage themselves.

Dice
February 18, 2009, 03:21 PM
I guess some one like Luffy keeps the rubberbody but he is not able to control it himself (see the Arlong fight). And logiauser are not able to activate their power.

But why is Luffy always so powerless if he touches a seastone and Croc and co. don't seem that powerless although they are wearing the seastonehandcuffs?
Does seastone nullify the meatpower (which would be very bad for Luffy)?

Chompp
February 18, 2009, 03:43 PM
What do you mean by have those powers within you ? Nullifies the DF power does not take the power out of the DF user : the DF user has always the sea curse.
It depends on what do you mean by control : for me, the DF power can be used with a mental impulsion, like when you decide to rise your hand for example (and automatically too for some DF)
So, this has nothing to do with control even if the kairouseki weaken the DF user.
Well, that's quite like what I thought too but just didn't explane myself that good :p For me mental impulsion to activate the power is controlling your ability.


When, they are all inside the cage in the Alabasta Arc, they are not weaken if they don't touche the cage (only Luffy tried to touch the cage and became ill-at-ease), and Smoker cannot use his logia power. If it was simply a problem of control, Smoker will have to jump on the cage, and he will turn in logia mode automatically (without control) to be not injured. Moreover, it is was a control problem, we would have seen Smoker tries to control his logia but they don't try to control it because it is as if the power were gone.
So, I think this is more something that nullifies the DF power but there should be some degree (I think the Logias are more affected). For me, with a metaphor (yeah !), it's like if their DF power were in cage themselves.
Well, it could be that Kairouseki stops that mental impulse(or ability to control it - the word I would use) and thus making you not able to use your powers.


I guess some one like Luffy keeps the rubberbody but he is not able to control it himself (see the Arlong fight). And logiauser are not able to activate their power.
That's pretty much how I see it.


But why is Luffy always so powerless if he touches a seastone and Croc and co. don't seem that powerless although they are wearing the seastonehandcuffs?
Does seastone nullify the meatpower (which would be very bad for Luffy)?
It was the same with Robin in EL. Someone explaned it so that perhaps kairouseki handcuffs are of different density or something like that than the cage in Croc's place. I don't know if it was something said in the manga or just a theory.

Lord Rayleigh
February 18, 2009, 03:48 PM
I guess some one like Luffy keeps the rubberbody but he is not able to control it himself (see the Arlong fight). And logiauser are not able to activate their power.

But why is Luffy always so powerless if he touches a seastone and Croc and co. don't seem that powerless although they are wearing the seastonehandcuffs?
Does seastone nullify the meatpower (which would be very bad for Luffy)?

I think the seastone has differents effects on the DF user : it depends on the propierties of their DF. A logia would not be able to turn into logia mode/create his element, a zoan could not turn into zoan mode (effects both similar) BUT the paramecias are so different that the effects on them are differents.

For example, a paramecia DF user whose body is all the time affected by the DF (like Luffy or Alvida) would be weaken because the DF is affected by the seastone) : EXCEPTION

A paramecia user whose power is not everytime " turned on " (all the others paramecias, like Mr3, Mr2, Kid, Robin, Hawkins, Apoo, Law etc ...) are not weakened but cannot use their power (effects similar with zoans/logias).

dtyk
June 04, 2009, 06:51 PM
This may prove to be interesting (not sure if it's post already though)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rayleigh_scattering

Some magnetic phenomenon I'm reminded of. Rayleigh scatters LIGHT (Kizaru)

BlackHair
June 04, 2009, 07:15 PM
Wow.. and I though at least after the gorgon sisters fight with Luffy it is clear that Rayleigh used haki to stop Kizaru's leg (though I was one of those who didn't supported the idea at first). I don't see a meaning in trying to explain with all that hardcore physic, especially since One Piece was never detailed explained with physic.

zerocooldx
June 05, 2009, 03:35 AM
Wow.. and I though at least after the gorgon sisters fight with Luffy it is clear that Rayleigh used haki to stop Kizaru's leg (though I was one of those who didn't supported the idea at first). I don't see a meaning in trying to explain with all that hardcore physic, especially since One Piece was never detailed explained with physic.

Yeah lolz, but i want to know how many different forms of Haki there are, because Mantra also seems to be apart of Haki.

beastboy
June 06, 2009, 07:22 AM
I just saw the first and the second point.
And I'm with imitorar but I doesn't disagree rayleighs teory.
Just that a laser when higly concentrated can burn, and if kiz can concentrate the aount of radiation of the sun in a mangrove that would look like an explosion, and thats what I thing is beam is, not solid light but an high concentration of light, so is leg isn't solid when he is concentrating a beam..
And so rayleagh need to hit a logia to move is leg and then the beam went far away..

And photons have no mass, (I think) so if there's no mass there is nothing limitating the amount, I heard in some place that one photon can be in two places at the same time, so kiz may be able to create light (but if he couldn't he ould just walk with a gigantic laser, cause logias can control eerything that is his element (see croc)..


anyway nice arguments, I would like to discuss this in portuguese.

Lord Rayleigh
June 06, 2009, 03:07 PM
anyway nice arguments, I would like to discuss this in portuguese.
Yes, talking in a native tongue could allow us to explain really better. I often need that dictionnary (http://www.wordreference.com/pten/) to find a word that could mean what I cannot mean in my current english level. This is the best dictionnary I have found in terms of simplicity and knowledges but I use it as a french native.
Moreover, when you are looking for a word, the dictionnary gives also links to forum's topics done by readers about some expressions associated with the word you looked for.