Ninja's level in Naruto(Part 1 & 2)

[THM Nindo]

So this the thread to discuss about the Ninja's leve in Naruto.
This is the perfect place for statement like : "Naruto is Kage-level" or "Ino is academy student level".

So, first let's set the levels. From the manga, that's the level that are presented by Sarutobi :
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o228/thehomemade/Ninjaranks.jpg

So, that's make 5 levels.
For the purpose of bringing more debates, we could add two other levels : "Special Jounin" and "Sannin-Level".

So, here are the 7 possible ranks :

1. Academy Student
This is for the ninjas that aren't even worthy of being called Ninja.

2. Genin
This is for the beginning Ninja, or ninjas that can't possibly lead a team (a requirement for the next level.)

3. Chunnin
This is for the average Ninja, who have a good knowledge in jutsu and his able to make decision and lead a team.

4. Special Jounin
This is for those jounin that are specialist in one domain (ex: Ambus are expert in stealth and assassination, Ibiki is expert in interrogation, Ebisu is an exceptionnal teacher,etc).
They might not be full-fledge Jounin, but they're good enough in one domain to have the "Jounin" rank.

5. Jounin
This is for the elite Ninja, who have shown skills in jutsu and are among the strongest of the village.

6. Sannin-level
This is for those who have skills that could compare to the three Sannins (Jiraiya, Tsunade and Orochimaru).

7. Kage-level
This is for those that are worthy of being called "Kage", the strongest.

Note: S-rank criminal was not introduced as a rank, so please refrain to use it as a rank in the debates if possible.

Note : Please, bare in mind that using the "Sannin-level" can get confusing as the three Sannins were strong enough to be Kage. Please refrain from using that level if possible.

[jodi]

So this the thread to discuss about the Ninja's leve in Naruto.
This is the perfect place for statement like : "Naruto is Kage-level" or "Ino is academy student level".

So, first let's set the levels. From the manga, that's the level that are presented by Sarutobi :
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o228/thehomemade/Ninjaranks.jpg

So, that's make 5 levels, but for the purpose of bringing more debates, let's add two other levels : "Elite Jounin" and "Sannin-Level".

So, here are the 7 possible ranks :

1. Academy Student
This is for the ninjas that aren't even worthy of being called Ninja.

2. Genin
This is for the beginning Ninja, or ninjas that can't possibly lead a team (a requirement for the next level.)

3. Chunnin
This is for the average Ninja, who have a good knowledge in jutsu and his able to make decision and lead a team.

4. Jounin
This is for the good Ninja, who have shown skills in jutsu and are the pride of the village.

5. Elite Jounin
This is for those jounin that are expert in one domain (ex: Ambus are expert in stealth and assassination, Ibiki is expert in interrogation)

6. Sannin-level
This is for those who have skills that could compare to the three Sannins (Jiraiya, Tsunade and Orochimaru).

7. Kage-level
This is for those that are worthy of being called "Kage", the strongest.

PS: S-rank criminal was not introduced as a rank, so please refrain to use it as a rank in the debates if possible.

these levels aren't being really used in narutoverse

see, Gaara is a kage, but the databook says he is lower than lots of jounins out there

take itachi, he is a jounin but he is kage level at Jiraiya's side

but Tsunade is hokage, and she is a sannin

I guess konohamaru is a very good example of how levels are irregular in narutoverse

[kkck]

Special jonnin is not a position above that of jonnin though. Special jonnin specialize in a specific area ( closet pervert in training, ibiki in torture and interrogation) but probably lack in other areas. In a way a jonnin is above a special jonnin.

Also I dont think sannin should be below kage (or in the ranks at all lol). All three sannin were considered for hokage and two of them were actually offered the position. Also needlessly to say, any sannin could fight at the level if not on par with any previous kage (note that I didnt say win), so all the more reason not to put kage and sannin on diferent categories.

[THM Nindo]

Special jonnin is not a position above that of jonnin though. Special jonnin specialize in a specific area ( closet pervert in training, ibiki in torture and interrogation) but probably lack in other areas. In a way a jonnin is above a special jonnin.

Also I dont think sannin should be below kage (or in the ranks at all lol). All three sannin were considered for hokage and two of them were actually offered the position. Also needlessly to say, any sannin could fight at the level if not on par with any previous kage (note that I didnt say win), so all the more reason not to put kage and sannin on diferent categories.

Regarding the special jonins, in my opinion, they are above the regular jonin.
For examble, you must have a lot of skills to be brought into Ambu or Root. Same thing goes for the interrogation squad, the decoding squad, etc.

So, maybe you're not as polyvalent than the others, but you're a pro in your domain.

As for the Sannin level, I totally agree.
I didn't want to put Sannin level at all, but it was so often used in the debates, that I felt I have to put it in.

And I agree that the three Sannin were probably stronger than a lot of Kage (Orochimaru did defeat the 3rd, and Jiraiya was even stronger)

That's why I put Sannin level as "someone whose skills could be compared to one the Sannin".
[hr]

these levels aren't being really used in narutoverse

see, Gaara is a kage, but the databook says he is lower than lots of jounins out there

take itachi, he is a jounin but he is kage level at Jiraiya's side

but Tsunade is hokage, and she is a sannin

I guess konohamaru is a very good example of how levels are irregular in narutoverse

Yes, Gaara is the perfect example that the Kage-level is not about being stronger than all the Jonin of the Narutoverse, but being stronger than the Jonin of your village. Basically, being Kage is being the strongest of your village.

Gaara, two years after being beaten by Naruto, became Kazekage.
But, Naruto, after his two years of training with Jiraiya was far away from being strong enough to be the Hokage.

And, stats isn't all there is.
Lee stats are probably awful (because he must have 0 in Ninjutsu, Genjutsu and Sealing jutsu), but that won't prevent him from being really strong (and probably stronger than some Jonins).

[Belisar]

these levels aren't being really used in narutoverse

see, Gaara is a kage, but the databook says he is lower than lots of jounins out there

take itachi, he is a jounin but he is kage level at Jiraiya's side

but Tsunade is hokage, and she is a sannin

I guess konohamaru is a very good example of how levels are irregular in narutoverse
without a bijuu, yes. with biju, no. he was genin and was already near jounin level. he also killed kimimaro and kabuto said that there is no chance that he would die out there.

and LOL at your sig jody. http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff150/Unlimited_Blade_Works/BakiBg.png

[kkck]

these levels aren't being really used in narutoverse

see, Gaara is a kage, but the databook says he is lower than lots of jounins out there

take itachi, he is a jounin but he is kage level at Jiraiya's side

but Tsunade is hokage, and she is a sannin

I guess konohamaru is a very good example of how levels are irregular in narutoverse

I think that the gaara case is mostly due to his fighting stile though. Even though he might not have as much "skill" as other elite ninjas, the nature of his stile provides him with high scale defensive and ofensive abilities which allow him to fight on par with people who in theory would have more skill in their respective abilities.

Also I dont think the exact point of the thread is only to discuss the literal titles of characters but also to discuss what their actual skill is. On another point itachi was NOT a jonnin at any point in his life. He was made a chunnin, later on entered the anbu and eventually became an anbu captain(although I am not sure if itachi went from chunnin to anbu captain directly).

And how exactly is konohamaru irregular?
[hr]

That's why I put Sannin level as "someone whose skills could be compared to one the Sannin".
Isn't that sort of confusing though? Given that any sannin has the skill to be a kage, wouldnt' anyone who is comparable to the sannin be at a kage level?

[Belisar]

I think that the gaara case is mostly due to his fighting stile though. Even though he might not have as much "skill" as other elite ninjas, the nature of his stile provides him with high scale defensive and ofensive abilities which allow him to fight on par with people who in theory would have more skill in their respective abilities.

Also I dont think the exact point of the thread is only to discuss the literal titles of characters but also to discuss what their actual skill is. On another point itachi was NOT a jonnin at any point in his life. He was made a chunnin, later on entered the anbu and eventually became an anbu captain(although I am not sure if itachi went from chunnin to anbu captain directly).

And how exactly is konohamaru irregular?
<hr noshade size="1">

Isn't that sort of confusing though? Given that any sannin has the skill to be a kage, wouldnt' anyone who is comparable to the sannin be at a kage level?
only the best jounin come to anbu.

[THM Nindo]

Isn't that sort of confusing though? Given that any sannin has the skill to be a kage, wouldnt' anyone who is comparable to the sannin be at a kage level?

Yeah, but it can't be avoid.
People have been using the "Sannin-level" for too long in the debates now.
And they won't stop using it, so that's why I put it in.

As for where it should be... (under or above Kage), well, Kage is THE strongest of the village, so I had no choice but to put it under.

But right now, with the few good character left, if a Ninja is at Sannin-level, there's high change he's Kage level.

Again, all depends of the village there from.
Right now we are all basing this on Konoha's level.

For example, the Kage from the Sand (Gaara) might probably be beaten by a few Ninjas from Konoha.

And we must not forget that the actual level of a ninja doesn't necesseraly reflect his skills (ex : Naruto and Sasuke are still genins).
So, even if Gaara is Kage level, he is probably, IMO, the weakest of the 5 Kages, especially that he must have lose a bit of power without the Bijuu.

[kkck]

only the best jounin come to anbu.

Show me a databook or manga page which says itachi was a jonnin. The manga says itachi was a chunnin at 8 years old, and later on went to the anbu. Given what we know, itachi was never a jonnin, and I dont think it has been mention that only the best jonnin can become anbu.
[hr]

Yeah, but it can't be avoid.
People have been using the "Sannin-level" for too long in the debates now.
And they won't stop using it, so that's why I put it in.

As for where it should be... (under or above Kage), well, Kage is THE strongest of the village, so I had no choice but to put it under.

But right now, with the few good character left, if a Ninja is at Sannin-level, there's high change he's Kage level.

Again, all depends of the village there from.
Right now we are all basing this on Konoha's level.

For example, the Kage from the Sand (Gaara) might probably be beaten by a few Ninjas from Konoha.

And we must not forget that the actual level of a ninja doesn't necesseraly reflect his skills (ex : Naruto and Sasuke are still genins).
So, even if Gaara is Kage level, he is probably, IMO, the weakest of the 5 Kages, especially that he must have lose a bit of power without the Bijuu.

So what exactly do you want discuss? Do you want to discuss things as in "naruto is a gennin" "tsunade is the hokage" "sasuke is an s-class criminal" or things as in "Sasuke is an s-class criminal with the skill of an elite jonnin" "naruto is a gennin with the skill to be hokage when in HM" ?

Is there someone who can be compared to the sannin but is not kage level though? I feel that adding that will arise unnesesary discussion...

[THM Nindo]

So what exactly do you want discuss? Do you want to discuss things as in "naruto is a gennin" "tsunade is the hokage" "sasuke is an s-class criminal" or things as in "Sasuke is an s-class criminal with the skill of an elite jonnin" "naruto is a gennin with the skill to be hokage when in HM" ?

Is there someone who can be compared to the sannin but is not kage level though? I feel that adding that will arise unnesesary discussion...

It's more a place to talk about skills of the Ninja.
Every week we get people saying things like : "Ino and Tenten aren't worth sh*t" and things like "Naruto is Sannin level, but if he beats Pain he will definitely be Kage-level".

This is mostly discuss in the Prediction thread and shouldn't really be discussed there, so I though about creating a special thread for those discussion. That's the place to discuss those things.

So, instead of just "moving" those discussion to the "Hangout thread" where they are lost forever, the Mods will be able to move them in this thread, where the debates can go on and on and on. (Message for Mods:p)

Now a good example of a discussion :

Sakura is chunnin level right now.
In your opinion, should she be Jonin level?

My opinon : Yes, she should. She crashed Pain's summon with one single blow, without a sweat. And we saw Ambu having to rely on really strong Ninjutsu against those same kind of summons.

With her force and her skills in medical jutsu, IMO, she should be Jonin level. Maybe even an Elite Medical Jonin. She's the best in the world after Tsunade and Kabuto (Shizune is dead...).

But, she still have to grow before having the skills to match one of the Sannin or one of the Kage. But, she will definitely do it. She will surpass Tsunade before the end.

[Delbi]

Regarding the special jonins, in my opinion, they are above the regular jonin.
For examble, you must have a lot of skills to be brought into Ambu or Root. Same thing goes for the interrogation squad, the decoding squad, etc.

So, maybe you're not as polyvalent than the others, but you're a pro in your domain.

As for the Sannin level, I totally agree.
I didn't want to put Sannin level at all, but it was so often used in the debates, that I felt I have to put it in.

And I agree that the three Sannin were probably stronger than a lot of Kage (Orochimaru did defeat the 3rd, and Jiraiya was even stronger)

That's why I put Sannin level as "someone whose skills could be compared to one the Sannin".
Special Jonnin being above regular Jonnin, that's very false. A Special Jonnin is designated to one field, meaning they have achieved Jonnin Level in one area and are skilled enough in other others, but not quite enough to be a full fledged Jonnin.

As for being brought into ANBU, you may only be brought in for you skills. It's also never mentioned that all ANBU are Jonnin they can be Chunnin as well. For example, Sakura could be brought into ANBU for her medical skills, or Kiba for his tracking skills. ANBU captains however, from what we have seen are extremely powerful an intelligent individuals, like Kakashi, Itachi, and Yamato.

As for the Sannin level, there is no such thing as there were only 3 Sannin and will only ever be 3 Sannin. The Sannin were called Sannin because they were ackwoledged by Hanzou, nothing more nothing less. These Sannin, on many occsions have shown themselves to be as powerful if not more powerful than Kages.



Yes, Gaara is the perfect example that the Kage-level is not about being stronger than all the Jonin of the Narutoverse, but being stronger than the Jonin of your village. Basically, being Kage is being the strongest of your village.

Gaara, two years after being beaten by Naruto, became Kazekage.
But, Naruto, after his two years of training with Jiraiya was far away from being strong enough to be the Hokage.

And, stats isn't all there is.
Lee stats are probably awful (because he must have 0 in Ninjutsu, Genjutsu and Sealing jutsu), but that won't prevent him from being really strong (and probably stronger than some Jonins).

All this nonsense about Gaara being inferior to Jonnin's in the Narutoverse is stupid, he's superior to about every Jonnin except perhaps Kakashi and Gai. Gaara is a Kage for a reason, his abilities are unreal, and the things he can do with Sand make him damn near unstoppable unless you yourself have some very special skills.

And a Kage isn't always the "strongest" ninja in their village, it just so happens that more often than not the Kage is the strongest, in the case of the Ragikage, he isn't the strongest, his brother is, also Gaara's father was probably weaker than he was thanks to Gaara's Biju.

If it was the case were the Kage was the strongest ninja in the village there would have been no reason for Tsuande to become Kage because a strong ninja like Gai or Kakashi could of filled the position. Things like experience, intelligence, and certain techniques (like great healing abilities) come into play as well. You could make a strong argument that Kakashi or Gai could defeat Tsuande in combat, but neither of them can do things she can as Hokage.

As far as stats go, I certainly agree with you. We have to remeber that things like elemental advantages over your opponent, Kekkai Genkai, and just your general abilites can help you defeat an enemy who has higher stats in the Data Book.

[kkck]

It's more a place to talk about skills of the Ninja.
Every week we get people saying things like : "Ino and Tenten aren't worth sh*t" and things like "Naruto is Sannin level, but if he beats Pain he will definitely be Kage-level".

This is mostly discuss in the Prediction thread and shouldn't really be discussed there, so I though about creating a special thread for those discussion. That's the place to discuss those things.

So, instead of just "moving" those discussion to the "Hangout thread" where they are lost forever, the Mods will be able to move them in this thread, where the debates can go on and on and on. (Message for Mods:p)

Now a good example of a discussion :

Sakura is gennin level right now.
In your opinion, should she be Jonin level?

My opinon : Yes, she should. She crashed Pain's summon with one single blow, without a sweat. And we saw Ambu having to rely on really strong Ninjutsu against those same kind of summons.

With her force and her skills in medical jutsu, IMO, she should be Jonin level. Maybe even an Elite Medical Jonin. She's the best in the world after Tsunade and Kabuto (Shizune is dead...).

But, she still have to grow before having the skills to match one of the Sannin or one of the Kage. But, she will definitely do it. She will surpass Tsunade before the end.

Ok, nice thread :)

As for the akura thing, I dont know whether you were joking or not but I am going to respond anyway. Sakura is not a gennin she is a chunnin. Sakura has displayed intelligence and strenth but I still think she is a reasonable distance away from being a full fledge jonnin. She could be a special jonnin given her medical expertice though.
[hr]
BTW how do I upload pictures and images to my posts?

[Natoma]

without a bijuu, yes. with biju, no. he was genin and was already near jounin level. he also killed kimimaro and kabuto said that there is no chance that he would die out there.

Slight correction. Kimimaro died because of his illness. If you recall, he was about to kill Gaara and Lee but his body finally succumbed.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/217/10/

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/217/11/

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/217/12/

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/217/13/

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/217/14/
[hr]


Sakura is gennin level right now.
In your opinion, should she be Jonin level?

My opinon : Yes, she should. She crashed Pain's summon with one single blow, without a sweat. And we saw Ambu having to rely on really strong Ninjutsu against those same kind of summons.

With her force and her skills in medical jutsu, IMO, she should be Jonin level. Maybe even an Elite Medical Jonin. She's the best in the world after Tsunade and Kabuto (Shizune is dead...).

But, she still have to grow before having the skills to match one of the Sannin or one of the Kage. But, she will definitely do it. She will surpass Tsunade before the end.

Sakura is a chuunin, not genin.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/247/06/

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/247/07/

Other than that, I agree with your assessment. I think she's definitely due for a promotion to Jounin. And Naruto should definitely be promoted to jounin after all the things he's done against Pain.

[THM Nindo]

Ok, nice thread :)

As for the akura thing, I dont know whether you were joking or not but I am going to respond anyway. Sakura is not a gennin she is a chunnin. Sakura has displayed intelligence and strenth but I still think she is a reasonable distance away from being a full fledge jonnin. She could be a special jonnin given her medical expertice though.
<hr noshade size="1">
BTW how do I upload pictures and images to my posts?

Yeah, sorry. I meant Chunnin :D
And I kind of agree with you. She might still lack experience to be called a Jonin, but in Medical jutsu, she's definitely Jonin level.

That kind of proof what you guys were saying, that Elite Jounin was below Jounin.
But then, that means that the Ambu's and Root's shinobi aren't that great then...:p


If you want to upload image you need to have them somewhere on Internet I think (if there's a way to do it from your computer, I don't know how.

Use this command [IMG]...[\IMG] replace the ... by the URL of the image and that's it.
If you want a good example, just press "Quote" on my first post in this thread and look at the command line I put for the image.

You can create an account at Photobucket and store all your image there before using them in your post (that's what I do).

[kkck]

Yeah, sorry. I meant Chunnin :D
And I kind of agree with you. She might still lack experience to be called a Jonin, but in Medical jutsu, she's definitely Jonin level.

That kind of proof what you guys were saying, that Elite Jounin was above Jounin.
But then, that means that the Ambu's and Root's shinobi aren't that great then...:p


If you want to upload image you need to have them somewhere on Internet I think (if there's a way to do it from your computer, I don't know how.

Use this command [IMG]...[\IMG] replace the ... by the URL of the image and that's it.
If you want a good example, just press "Quote" on my first post in this thread and look at the command line I put for the image.

You can create an account at Photobucket and store all your image there before using them in your post (that's what I do).

How does that prove elite (should be special though) jonnin are above jonnin? How does that make anbus not that great?

Thanks for the info, it really helps. I always have problems with that because it would be so much easier to explain some of my posts if I had images to go with them lol.

[THM Nindo]

How does that prove elite (should be special though) jonnin are above jonnin? How does that make anbus not that great?

Thanks for the info, it really helps. I always have problems with that because it would be so much easier to explain some of my posts if I had images to go with them lol.

Lol, sorry.
I was kinda contradicting myself here.

Of course, I meant that it would proove the opposite.:p
The fact that Sakura might be considered a Special Medical Jonin, but lack experience to be considered a Jonin, "kinda" proove that Special Jonin is BELOW jonin.

And since Ambu's and Root's are special jonin (Stealth and assassination), that means that they might be lacking in other domains, and thus that aren't as great as a full-fledge jonins who are skilled in everything.

BTW, Ambu's are stealh and assassination specialist, but what is Root exaclty!?
Are they doing the same thing than Ambu?! If that's the case, I don't really see a point of having two groups to do the same thing.

[kkck]

Well, anbus and root were never called special jonnin so far, so I dont think they actually are special jonnin. In a way they are specialist in assasination and stelth but technically they dont have to be special jonnin.

Root was said to be a subdivision of anbu controlled by danzou, so they essentially should be the same as anbu but under danzous control...

[Hojinmaru]

Academy Student - Learned basic chakra creation and manipulation.
Gennin - Demonstrated rudimentary level execution of ninjutsu/taijutsu/genjutsu
Chunnin - Demonstrated ability to lead, basic mastery of ninjutsu/taijutsu/genjutsu
Special Jounin - Demonstrated exceptional mastery of a single ninja art, while having a basic mastry of the rest.
Jounin - Demonstrates exceptional mastery of basic ninja arts, and can control at least 1 element if not more, also demonstrating leadership qualities and ability to instruct lower ranking ninja.
Kage - Demonstrates exceptional wisdom/leadership abilities, Mastry of most jutsu, in control of at least 2 elements.

ANBU - The ANBU (暗部, ANBU; Literally meaning "Dark Side") is actually short for ANsatsu Senjutsu Tokushu BUtai (暗殺戦術特殊部隊, Ansatsu Senjutsu Tokushu Butai; Literally meaning "Special Assassination and Tactical Squad"). The name is a form of contraction, similar to English acronyms like SWAT, where the two kanji used to abbreviate the group's full name constitute an actual word on their own.

Ibiki was a special jounin because he was extraordinary at being able to pull info from his victims without having to use physical torture, he did it all with his interrogation abilities, thus making him "special".

ROOT - Root is a subdivision of ANBU, under the control of Danzo, but it's more his personal army of assassins. He's also collected children of the village that had been forgotten when their parents died raising them with no emotion to be perfect killing machines. Sai is an example of this kind of upbringing in Root.

[Forever_Melody]

Certainly an interesting thread :D

But there is one flaw in all these general assumptions. In order to say someone is "Kage level", there is a certain level of interpretation and generalizing from us readers which is not in the manga. The manga makes it pretty clear, the "levels" are an indication of status/role in the ladder, NOT of power. Last I checked, Kishi hasn't used the terms "Kage level" or any of the sort to describe someone's power(correct me if I'm wrong).

In order to use the term "Kage level" or "Jounin level" as an indicator of power, someone, somewhere is interpreting and generalizing something. In this case, the readers are generalizing the power levels of those in a given rank(ex: Kages) and then comparing this generalization with other people in order to classify them.

[THM Nindo]

Certainly an interesting thread :D

But there is one flaw in all these general assumptions. In order to say someone is "Kage level", there is a certain level of interpretation and generalizing from us readers which is not in the manga. The manga makes it pretty clear, the "levels" are an indication of status/role in the ladder, NOT of power. Last I checked, Kishi hasn't used the terms "Kage level" or any of the sort to describe someone's power(correct me if I'm wrong).

In order to use the term "Kage level" or "Jounin level" as an indicator of power, someone, somewhere is interpreting and generalizing something. In this case, the readers are generalizing the power levels of those in a given rank(ex: Kages) and then comparing this generalization with other people in order to classify them.

Yes.
That's the big problem.

There are many way to interpret those :

The most common used by the people is comparing the power with someone of that rank.

Ex:
If one ninja show skill rivalizing a jounin (ex: Asuma, Kurenai, Kakashi), then we can say that he would be Jounin-level.
If one ninja show skll rivalizing a Kage (ex: Tsuande, Gaara), then we could say he's Kage level.

I don't know if we could find a better way...

[Kravmaga]

Being of hokage level is still not the same as being able to be hokage.

Being hokage makes one stronger and weaker at the same time; stronger in the sense that you get an unshakable belief in your country and will of iron when it comes to protect your homies but weaker in that you will be willing to take a bullet for your homies and when your opponents know that it sucks (gaara vs deidara).

The closest person I can think of to being genuine hokage-material is itachi, whose skills need no further comments and who for the sake of his village's safety and his brother willingly went through years of hell. That sounds like the self-sacrificing attitude you'd see in a kage worth his pricetag.

Also, I agree that special jounins shouldn't be judged on the same scoreboard as jounins. They are like the field medics, sniper teams or radar specialists/mechanics in your army whereas jounins would be your average jarhead and ambus would be the spec ops. While they might not be the most well rounded all around fighters, they will spot your enemies, fix your truck and pull a bullet out of your arse with nothing but a knive, a lighter and a pr6n magazine.

[kkck]

^I dont think the point of this is to discuss actual hokage candidates though. The point is to discuss whether a character has abilities and strenth equal to a specific rank according to what we have seen so far. In that sense we are not discussing, for example, whether orochimaru has the apptitude to be hokage but if his strenth is on the same tier as one. Also the thread doesnt sat hokage level but kage.

[kai-uchiha]

Also I dont think sannin should be below kage (or in the ranks at all lol). All three sannin were considered for hokage and two of them were actually offered the position. Also needlessly to say, any sannin could fight at the level if not on par with any previous kage (note that I didnt say win), so all the more reason not to put kage and sannin on diferent categories.

I do believe sannin to be a genuine level of ninja skill just below kage level. or perhaps I should say a level of admiration from your fellow ninja's but not to the same extend as a kage would enjoy.
you see in the kakashi gaiden it is said by none other than minato himself that konoha's white fang enjoyed the respect of his fellow ninja on the same level as the sannin were revered. thus implying that among ninjas there is a "level" between jounin and hokage.
but to my knowledge he (White fang) was never considered for the hokage position.
so instead of power or ninja skill I believe the main difference between kage and sannin level is the amount of faith and trust the people place in you. that's something you have to earn by hard work over a long period of time, instead of relying on power solely which is something a mere akatski would do or orochimaru for example.

[Delbi]

I do believe sannin to be a genuine level of ninja skill just below kage level. or perhaps I should say a level of admiration from your fellow ninja's but not to the same extend as a kage would enjoy.
you see in the kakashi gaiden it is said by none other than minato himself that konoha's white fang enjoyed the respect of his fellow ninja on the same level as the sannin were revered. thus implying that among ninjas there is a "level" between jounin and hokage.
but to my knowledge he (White fang) was never considered for the hokage position.
so instead of power or ninja skill I believe the main difference between kage and sannin level is the amount of faith and trust the people place in you. that's something you have to earn by hard work over a long period of time, instead of relying on power solely which is something a mere akatski would do or orochimaru for example.

The Sannin were named the Sannin by Hanzou as he ackwoledged their power. No other village can call its ninja Sannin as it is not an official rank among ninja, but simply a title given to a select few.

There as been no mention of any other ninja being Sannin or being mentioed as Sannin candidates.

As for the White Fang, if I remeber correctly, he was said to be superior to the Sannin, he was also never mentioned as a Hokage candidate, but given our knowledge of him I don't see why he wouldn't have been seeing as how all 3 Sannin have at one time been offered the title of Hokage. Also keep in mind, he was the same age as Sarturobi, their sons are the same age so its very logical that he was around the same age as Sarturobi, and even if he would have lived, he would of never been made Hokage because of his age.

[Spike Spiegal]

I don't think in Konoha's power system, Gaara would be considered Kage level.

Mid-level chunnin-Ten ten, Ino,Konahamaru
High-LevelChunin-maybe Iruka?

Low-Level Jounin-Rock Lee, Sakura,Shino,Kiba,Shikamaru,Temari,Kankuro,Karin
To me Gaara would be Mid-level Jounin with Neji,Asuma,Kurenai,Hidan,Suigetsu,Juugo
High-level Jounin:Gai, Dei,

Low-level Kage: Tsunade,Kakashi,Sasuke,Sasori,Kakuzu
Mid-level Kage: Naruto, Jiraiya, Itachi, Oro,Sarutobi(Old), Hachibi,White Fang
High-level Kage:Sarutobi(prime), 1st Hokage,Minato?

[Kusachu]

Speaking about Kage level vs. Sannin level, well, I have to say that there really is no large distinction between the powers of said characters. All three of the Sannin are/were at or above "Kage level". Tsunade and Orochimaru are/were Kage and Jiraiya was nominated twice. Also, the distinction carries with it the assumption that those individuals met all of the specifications for the job AND had an "in". Sarutobi became Hokage because he was taught by Tobirama, who was a Kage because he was brother to Hashirama who is grandfather to Tsunade. Sarutobi wanted both Orochimaru AND Jiraiya to succed him because they were his students. Minato was Jiraiya's student (and a genius the likes of which only comes along once in a generation). Gaara became Kazekage because he was not only the strongest, but the son of the previous Kazekage. Madara was a Kage. Pein is also a Kage of sorts. Both of them probably mussled into their positions by killing the one who had the job before them. Kakashi could have been a Kage. Being a Kage just means that you are the biggest badass and the people give you the most respect and/or fear you the most.

[THM Nindo]

The Sannin were named the Sannin by Hanzou as he ackwoledged their power. No other village can call its ninja Sannin as it is not an official rank among ninja, but simply a title given to a select few.

There as been no mention of any other ninja being Sannin or being mentioed as Sannin candidates.

As for the White Fang, if I remeber correctly, he was said to be superior to the Sannin, he was also never mentioned as a Hokage candidate, but given our knowledge of him I don't see why he wouldn't have been seeing as how all 3 Sannin have at one time been offered the title of Hokage. Also keep in mind, he was the same age as Sarturobi, their sons are the same age so its very logical that he was around the same age as Sarturobi, and even if he would have lived, he would of never been made Hokage because of his age.

I think we all agree that none can be called Sannin beside Jiraiya, Tsunade and Orochimaru.

That's a unique title given to them (Sannin means Three Ninjas), so it's only for them.

But, a lot of people were compared to the Sannin in term of power and respect (ex: White fang), even in the manga, so I don't see why we couldn't compare other people to the Sannin.

Sannin-level only means that they can be compare to the Sannin.
The only downside of that comparison, is the fact that the three Sannin were strong enough to be Kage.

In fact, saying that someone is Sannin-level, is mostly saying that they are Kage level in term of power.
But being Kage is more than power, it's also intelligence and leadership.

So basically, if someone is strong enough to Kage, but hasn't enough experience, intelligence or leadership, he's Sannin-level.

I guess, that's a way we could see it.

[kkck]

Sannin is not an actual title though, in reality it is as much as a nickname as "yellow flash". Besides, it is highly probably the skills of the sannin have varied since the nickname was given(since jiraiya thought he could take the man who killed hanzo on his own) so we dont even know exaclty what sannin represented at the time given.

Now, if we want to consider sannin with the skills in the current manga, then it is very clear that sannin is at kage level. I mean, orochimaru was considered for the position 16 years ago, it is posible that jiraiya was considered for the position and decline and we know he was offered the position in the current manga, and tsunade actually became hokage even though we have no reason to believe she could take either orochimaru or jiraiya in battle.

[LanderZ]

Holy cow.... a whole bunch of "supposed facts" that don't back up the actual points being raised.


Let's go back to the basics:

In the current Narutoverse, the universal system [amongst multiple Sato] is as described:

Genin = low end Shinobi
Chuunin = mid end Shinobi
Jounin = high end Shinobi

That's it.

Now, we can note that Konoha has a specific Academy for training shinobi, and it was mentioned that Kiri has one, as well (during the Zabuza arc, it describes the final exam as killing off fellow students, to introduce them to the gruesome world of death/killing in shinobi life). In Part 2, Baki states that Suna has taken on the Konoha Academy setup, and it is looking promising.

There are no records of any other village having a specific ninja academy. Look at Ame, and how Jiraiya had to teach 3 younglings [who would likely have died, in the harshness of the war, otherwise] how to be shinobi. While it is likely that some other countries have some kind of schooling program, I'd be hesitant to consider anyone "Academy Student" level, as it simply states that they are sub-par, and not-shinobi-qualified.


As for Tokubetsu Jounin [Special Jounin], I recall Ebisu, Anko, Ibiki and one of either Raidou or Genma [probably Genma] being in this rank. They appear to have the qualifications of a Jounin, in terms of authority, but are all very clearly sub-par in terms of stats to other Jounin we see, such as Kakashi, Dan, Asuma, and even Kurenai and the sand siblings. I don't recall the series ever specifying this, but to estimate that they are below a normal Jounin level wouldn't be an errant guess, so far as I'm concerned...


Now, a few things that I'm glad to see haven't come up [YET], but I'm sure they will, so I'll put a stopper to them, now...

1) Elite Jounin is not a rank. There is no specific label of this stated ANYWHERE. Asuma, Gai, and Kakashi are all said to be of superior calibre to the average Jounin, and somehow, someone comes up with some coined term that has no actual place in the series.


2) ANBU is not a rank. It is a job/position held by Chuunin and Jounin, usually detailing either assassination work (hence the name), or Hokage-guard duty. Either way, the ANBU is an organization that is commanded specifically by the Hokage, and outside of some filler stuff, there is NO mention of ANBU in any other nation. They wear masks to hide their identity, to prevent backlash either when they're off-duty, or to their family/friends.

Ne (Root) is a subsection of ANBU people that is commanded by Danzo. It's still ANBU, but they follow a different jingi [moral code], and obey a different leader... Not too much known about them, outside of that.

Hunter-nin (Haku pretended to be one) appear to be shinobi that hunt down nukenin (missing-nin) to prevent their village's secret from getting out. We only see Kirinin doing this, but given that Sakura seems to know all about it, I'd hazard a guess that the ANBU of Konoha do the same, especially given Sai's task to kill Sasuke (a nukenin of Konoha) during the 4-tails arc.

If you call ANBU a rank, you may as well call "Academy Teacher" a rank, and so forth... titles people have for the positions they hold [or jobs they do] aren't ranks. They're just titles. That's it >.<


3) Akatsuki is not a rank. It's a criminal organization led by Pain and/or Madara that is comprised of powerful nukenin from various countries. Please, for the love of all that's holy, don't call them a rank. Further, I believe Itachi was still only Chuunin rank when he left Konoha, which would technically mean that even Chuunin could get into Akatsuki, providing their skills met the requirements and they were strong enough.


4) "Council/Counsel" level also doesn't exist. Kotetsu and Homura [I think I got their names right; Sarutobi's former teammates, in any case] are considered wise in their years, have made it clear that they delegate well with the Daimyo [and pissing off the guy that pays your salary is never smart], and their wisdom is to be respected by the village. They have shown no particularly viable ninja-skills, so trying to make the claim that "they are the 2nd strongest shinobi in the village!" has no basis of truth, whatsoever. It's not a rank/level, it's just some people who are politically-wise.


Now, some issues I have that have already been raised, that need correction (IMO)

1) Kage is not a rank!! The "-Kage" title is given to the leader of the 5 shinobi villages in the 5 Great Nations. Being the leader of a village means you get to be the leader. You can't call someone "Kage level" if they aren't a Kage, because they aren't the leader. They may possess attributes that are superior to the current and/or past Kages of that village, but that doesn't make them the leader.

If you want to say "They're really fricken' strong" or "They're good enough to lead the village", then please state that.... calling them "Kage Level" means you're making up some strange ideology that compares the leader to this new person, and it is always a completely flexible position. If the entire village is Genin-level, and there is one person of Chuunin-calibre, they'd probably be made Kage/village leader, despite being a complete weakling beside the leaders of all normal countries.


2) "Sannin"-level does not exist. Much hatred for this particular batch of foolishness.... The "Sannin" title was bestowed upon the only 3 shinobi who were still standing in a big battle between Ame and Konoha [which just happened to be the legendary-strong team of Sarutobi Hiruzen... Graduated the Academy at, like, 5 or 6, and became Chuunin shortly thereafter, and Jounin before 12, IIRC... really freakin' powerful folk, the 3 of them], in which it was clear that Sanshuuou Hanzou [Salamander Hanzou] was the strongest person on the field, and he figured Konoha would probably eventually emerge victorious. Sannin means "3 ninja", and it's the shortened term for "Densetsu no Sannin", or "Legendary 3 Ninjas". The 3 shinobi who hold this title [note, it says 3, there are only 3 for crying out loud!] are all incredibly capable shinobi who have accomplished amazing feats, both individually and when working together, and between this, and the fact that they were in the same team, they earned this title.

That being said, it's no different that Kakashi's title of "Copy Ninja Kakashi" or "Sharingan Kakashi", or Namikaze Minato's title of "Yellow Flash" or Kakashi's father's "Shiroi no Kiba" [White Fang]. Amazing people become legendary amongst their allies first, then amongst their enemies, then finally amongst the commonfolk / neutral parties. Allies will seek to use the genius' abilities to their benefits (such as winning wars, or finding new abilities, and so forth), while enemies will educate themselves about the abilities of supposedly terrifying foes (such as how the Iwanin told Minato that they were instructed to flee if they ever encountered the Yellow Flash).

If you earn a title/nickname, it means you kick ass at something, or have some really unique attribute. To make the claim that someone is "Yellow Flash" level, or "Copy Ninja" level, or "Sannin" level are all equally pointless. If you want to say "That guy is as strong as any of the Sannin", say so. Don't call them "Sannin-Level", as that's like saying, IRL, "Yeah, he's Michael-Phelps quality" or something equally silly....



So, in summary:

If you want to call someone strong, do so. Compare their abilities, stats, fighting abilities, non-fighting abilities, or whatever. But, please, for any rational debate, please don't go making up some funky "system" for labelling people which directly contradicts what Kishi has told us [or what we can draw from other things he has told us]. Yes, this is a free forum where you could call a ninja a pink-dress for all it mattered, but don't expect to be included in serious/rational discussions if you do so.


Edit: Formatting fixes, and [/rant]

[kai-uchiha]

@ landerz

you mentioned the "sannin" and the whitefang and minato in your post, so i suppose you were refering to my post??
anyway i never said that sannin or kage is a ninja 'level'. instead i said that the fact that minato mentioned the white fang to be of equal stature as the sannin means that the white fang enjoyed the same kind of admiration as the sannin did.
i mean if ninja are talking among themselves i could imagine them discussing with one another who's the strongest ninja. and saying stuff like for example: "wow that white fang is strong, maybe even as strong as the sannin" or "konohas yellow flash has definetly surpassed the sannin".
so i meant to say that among the ninja's the word sannin stands for a certain ninja level, not a official term. but still one that every citizen of konoha knows.
do I make any sense???

well maybe this post in addition to my previous post will make any sense

my previous post

I do believe sannin to be a genuine level of ninja skill just below kage level. or perhaps I should say a level of admiration from your fellow ninja's but not to the same extend as a kage would enjoy.
you see in the kakashi gaiden it is said by none other than minato himself that konoha's white fang enjoyed the respect of his fellow ninja on the same level as the sannin were revered. thus implying that among ninjas there is a "level" between jounin and hokage.
but to my knowledge he (White fang) was never considered for the hokage position.
so instead of power or ninja skill I believe the main difference between kage and sannin level is the amount of faith and trust the people place in you. that's something you have to earn by hard work over a long period of time, instead of relying on power solely which is something a mere akatski would do or orochimaru for example.

[Forever_Melody]

These are all either ranks or titles. None of these are any sort of power indicator other than in a broad sense. For example, a Jounin should theoretically be better than a Gennin. But even then, it's a generalized and broad judgment since by technical terms, Naruto is still at the Genin rank and he can outclass many Chunins and even Jounins currently IMO.

The ranks do reflect a certain proficiency that is certain, but it isn't a power ranking. It gets even more iffy when you get into specific titles like Kage and Sannin. Kages vary a lot with different periods of time & different villages. A Kage is simply the village's most adequate(and strongest in most cases) leader at the time he/she is elected. There isn't any power or skill threshold for being a Kage as far as the manga is concerned. In fact, the power threshold is dependent on the rest of the village. If a village consists of weaklings, their Kage is likely to be weaker than the Kage from a stronger village since this Kage(the one from the stronger village) has a higher bar set by the rest of the village from which to distinguish himself/herself.

So really, most of these assumptions are readers' interpretations to generalize and average the powers of people in a rank rank/title and use that as a "power rank".

[LanderZ]

Sorry, kai-uchiha, I didn't read many of the latest posts prior to posting my own. If our ideas were much the same, then good. If they contradict, then.... well, I stated my reasonings.


As for each being "generic terms of power", please note that the Chuunin Shiken[Exam] help moderate the power of at least 1 promotion process, so that means the Genin / Chuunin ranks, at least, have some kind of universal setup for power, and I'd presume Jounin has something much the same, as well, though who knows.

But it once again falls to this: If you want to say "So-and-so is as famous as the Sannin", then say that. Don't call them Sannin, or "Sannin-level", as they aren't one of the [Legendary] THREE ninjas, and each of the Sannin had very unique abilities, so comparing someone to all 3 is... kinda difficult to do. Not many people have the endurance of Jiraiya, the Jutsu of Orochimaru, or the Strength/Knowledge of Tsunade, all in one...

[Pantsu]

if your trying to categorize ninjas by their pure power ranking there should be another way. this just confuses the village rankings with the actual power of the ninja. being a kage doesnt necessarily mean your the most powerfull person in the village, its more like the kage is the embodiment/president of the village. mind you at least in the leaf the kages have been amongst the most powerfull characters, but it has just as much to do with character and experience(and a will to do the paperwork lawl). special jonins are by no means more or less powerfull than a jonin, they are just "specialized" in thier area. while a standard jonin uses 2 elements and so on, a specialized jonin could be focused in 1 type, or a special offside jutsu(shadow,puppets, ino's mind junk,and so on),Lee would become a speical jonin, or at least thats how ive gathered it. the problem with using the ranks offered in the manga is that the narutoverse is a lot like the real world in this instance, there are weaker people in higher ranks( gaara), and much stronger people in lower ranks(naruto).The Anbu is a perfect example. they are suppose to be the elite(and they have had a few) but from what little weve seen from the random anbus(and even sai and yamato) i dont think they are all THAT powerfull vs some of the other characters.

this being said, im sure that naruto in pure power is on kage level, but i and many other think that hes not ready for the hokage title, because its more than that. because even with all that raw power
theres just too many variables lol.
then again this is part of why i like naruto, its got a lot too it. but time and time again i say this. i REALLY wish kishi would delve into jutsus and power levels and little more.

[DarkManSharingan32]

Whoa whoa whoa...
I let it slide a while but it just keeps coming up.
Gaara isn't Kage level? Have you honestly not seen what he can do? His ability is tough for ANY ninja to combat against leaving only the most elite to take him on. Honestly, Deidara used an advantage that could be used against most Kage. Does that make him stronger... not necessarily. Look at the skills, because it's obvious they are there.

Gaara mops the floor with prominent Jounins like Asuma, and Kurenai. I think in terms of power he could take out Zabuza solo, and his ability can be used in such a way where multiple opponents can be taken down simultaneously. By extention, Gaara could fair well against even Pein.
---

Anyways, a Kage is determined by having the power to protect your village. If that's not Gaara, then nothing is.

[kkck]

IMO gaara is kage level although it is mostly due to the nature of his fighting stile. In a way he also is the perfect kazekage for the village, basically the entire desert is his shield and weapon and he can use it to protect the village with no problems at all. IMO what deidara did to win is the only thing in the entire manga that can be considered a cheap shot lol.

[Pantsu]

i think gaara was beginning to show signs of becoming a great hokage, but i still dont think he is as powerfull as some of the lower rank characters, nor as mentally sound.
sorry lol gaara vs other kages hes probally the weakest one. my arguement had nothing to do with gaara anyways. throw one name and a fanboy is bound to freak xP(im joking im joking! =D) i was merely pointing out using the ranks the village uses to define someones actuall power lvl doesnt really work. because so many people on so many many levels are SO different.
and i really dont understand the "sannin lvl" arguement. the sannin are 3 ninjas. its not a rank, its a title specificly for j-man, granny, and michael jackson.

[Kusachu]

I think that what people are failing to realize, especially in terms of various characters like ANBU, is that the quality of a ninja isn't just based on fighting ability. People assume that ANBU are supposed to be top notch and all, but ANBU are people who specialize in murder. You can be weak as hell and still murder someone. Special skills also play a role. Look at people like Shikamaru. He's not that strong, but he's smart as hell and his justu can kill a guy without them knowing what hit them. Ninja by nature are about sneaking and being underhanded. It just so happens that we see the big power fighting and not the missions that include the everyday stuff like intelligence and assasination.

[Oathencrantz]

Whoa whoa whoa...
I let it slide a while but it just keeps coming up.
Gaara isn't Kage level? Have you honestly not seen what he can do? His ability is tough for ANY ninja to combat against leaving only the most elite to take him on. Honestly, Deidara used an advantage that could be used against most Kage. Does that make him stronger... not necessarily. Look at the skills, because it's obvious they are there.

Gaara mops the floor with prominent Jounins like Asuma, and Kurenai. I think in terms of power he could take out Zabuza solo, and his ability can be used in such a way where multiple opponents can be taken down simultaneously. By extention, Gaara could fair well against even Pein.
---

Anyways, a Kage is determined by having the power to protect your village. If that's not Gaara, then nothing is.

Lol, it's about time somebody said this. I mean, all of a sudden people are beginning/began to underestimate the dude, and he's got a fighting style that could trouble most ninja.

[Pantsu]

lol i give up. i was using gaara as an example, my arguement is you cant really use the Village titles as a true power ranking system. because gaara is a badass, but obviously not as powerfull as other kages from other villages, sure he might be "kage lvl" for the sand, but by this idea, it would mean that hes more powerfull thank kakashi(which i think he could beat in the right circumstances) and on equal footing with people like madara and the first hokage, which i call bullshit lol. theres a reason the databooks have the stats in them, and gaaras stats arent by anymeans the highest.
i just get sick of seeing people say things like "kage lvl" or "sannin lvl" or "jonin lvl" when there were so many kages, SO different from eachother. Sannin is a NAME given to 3 specific people and has nothing to do with anything except for the fact that they gave Hanzou the Salamander a run for his money, and we have no idea how powerfull Hanzou was.( i would love to see some more from him i thought he was awsome looking!) the ranking system is too wide, or is completely ignored( in narutos case)period.

[Oathencrantz]

^^Lol, don't give up. What I said wasn't directed at you, I just meant in general. But what I will say is this, how could you even say he's not as powerful as other Kages if you don't even know them? We only know of Hokage, Raikage and Kazekage, and even so; we barely know how strong some of them are i.e. Raikage. As for the DB stats, people shouldn't get fooled by those in some cases. Gaara is a stationary fighter, all he uses is sand so it would only make sense that he had low taijutsu; among of areas.

You're right, Salamander Hanzou and his summon looks dope, everything about him spells beast. I love the rain ninja who use the breathing mouthpieces.

[niblack89]

in stead of sainn level we could just say kage level it seem fair cause sainn is a name given to jaryia, tsunade and orochimaru but they all are on the same or can beat other kages and could take the job of the kage. Other ninjas that are this level has to be White fang, Sasori, Itachi, We can argue Naruto but we can say he is high jonin level like Kakashi and Saskue because he doesn't know his own power and Naruto cause his Sage mode has some kinks to it but with their full potential is extremely high

[Forever_Melody]

Now what is "Kage level" though? I mean, a Kage is the strongest person from a village(and its best leader), but that's a subjective term from village to village. For example, Kiri's strongest might not be in the same league as Konoha's strongest, yet by the definition, both these people would hold the Kage title.

[Raizen]

Now what is "Kage level" though? I mean, a Kage is the strongest person from a village(and its best leader), but that's a subjective term from village to village. For example, Kiri's strongest might not be in the same league as Konoha's strongest, yet by the definition, both these people would hold the Kage title.
Ur right, that is what makes debating people in terms of kage so hard. i prefer tiers LOL

[The_Drunk]

Gara is Jounin level at best..... by Konoha standards... I'm sure a true Hokage like J-man would finish off Gara in two moves... or Oro... (Tsunade is still up in the air..)
Tsunade should be Jounin level.... I haven't seen her in a true fight. She beat Oro ( being handicaped. Can't use his arms... to form Jutsu's) I'm sure that Kakashi would be able to beat Tsunade. Kakashi lacks the stamina required to create powerful jutsus, but his wide array of jutsus are impressive. Kakashi compared to the Third Hokage... They are both have a wide array of jutsu's but only the Third can can create jutsu's that require large amounts of chakra over and over again. Kakashi would be on his knees after one or two jutsu's that require massive amounts of chakra. So my point is that Kakashi is Jounin level. Naruto vs Kakashi.. well lets ask Pain who is stronger... Naruto lacks only the skill, but is quickly climbing his way up the ladder. Naruto is easily Jounin level, but can also be considered Hokage level. Sauske is also Jounin level, but Hokage level.. I don't think so. Give him the CS2 back with white snake power and he'll be Hokage level. Everyone else... who cares...

[Raizen]

Gara is Jounin level at best..... by Konoha standards... I'm sure a true Hokage like J-man would finish off Gara in two moves... or Oro... (Tsunade is still up in the air..)
Tsunade should be Jounin level.... I haven't seen her in a true fight. She beat Oro ( being handicaped. Can't use his arms... to form Jutsu's) I'm sure that Kakashi would be able to beat Tsunade. Kakashi lacks the stamina required to create powerful jutsus, but his wide array of jutsus are impressive. Kakashi compared to the Third Hokage... They are both have a wide array of jutsu's but only the Third can can create jutsu's that require large amounts of chakra over and over again. Kakashi would be on his knees after one or two jutsu's that require massive amounts of chakra. So my point is that Kakashi is Jounin level. Naruto vs Kakashi.. well lets ask Pain who is stronger... Naruto lacks only the skill, but is quickly climbing his way up the ladder. Naruto is easily Jounin level, but can also be considered Hokage level. Sauske is also Jounin level, but Hokage level.. I don't think so. Give him the CS2 back with white snake power and he'll be Hokage level. Everyone else... who cares...
I agree you for the most part, especially on the sasuke thing LOL
But I think tsunade is being underestimated. She just saved the whole village, what more can she do to prove her worth??

[TheChosenOne]

But I think tsunade is being underestimated. She just saved the whole village, what more can she do to prove her worth??

I have to agree with this sentiment. Hokage's are supposed to protect their villages to their best capacity. The best Tsunade could do is heal everyone and protect them with Katsuyu. :)

[The_Drunk]

I have to agree with this sentiment. Hokage's are supposed to protect their villages to their best capacity. The best Tsunade could do is heal everyone and protect them with Katsuyu. :)
Did she protect the village from Pain? I think of it differently than you guys... let me explain... Lets just say Naruto had not shown up... Pain would have completely erased Konoha off the map including everyone there. You say she did her part, but did she. Her part was to protect the village from harm... From the looks of it the only thing left is that statue of her... Wait a minute.. there she is... Sakura is wiping her ass.. because she just shit all over herself and she can't clean it herself. She did the best she could do and that was heal the villagers and that isn't good enough. Because she wasn't the only one saving villagers... Sakura saved some villagers.. even Iruka helped.. that's because they all played there part in saving the villagers. Hokages are suppose to not only save the villagers, but stop the threat from continuing. She managed to do just one and that was save the villagers.. but what about defeating the threat to the village... Nope... she can't do it.... she's been defeated.... There's nothing wrong with that it's just to bad she couldn't have been more effective. Maybe if she had engaged Pain when he arrived she might have stood a chance, but she watched at a distance throwing away her chakra. Maybe she should have asked someone with a brain to tell her what to do.. like Shikamaru... Don't get me wrong I like Tsunade.. but until I actually see her fight... She is not Hokage material.

[TheChosenOne]

You say she did her part, but did she. Her part was to protect the village from harm.

I didn't state that she fulfilled her role as Hokage, just that she fulfilled the role to her best capacity. :)


because she wasn't the only one saving villagers... Sakura saved some villagers.. even Iruka helped.. that's because they all played there part in saving the villagers.Well Hiruzen wasn't the only one that was fighting somebody during the Oro invasion, the entire village helped. Minato didn't just have a showdown with the Kyuubi one night, every single shinobi in Konoha was assembled against the Kyuubi. :)


Hokages are suppose to not only save the villagers, but stop the threat from continuing. She managed to do just one and that was save the villagers.. but what about defeating the threat to the villageShe did what she believed to be the best option at the moment. She knows that Pain is someone who is strong enough to defeat Jiraiya. She isn't an idiot to go into battle without any knowledge of the enemy and get killed. Instead of taking an offensive measure she took the defensive measure and waited for Naruto to come back (since Tsunade knew he was the best chance at stopping Pain). :)


Maybe if she had engaged Pain when he arrived she might have stood a chance, but she watched at a distance throwing away her chakra.Pain didn't just walk into Konoha and challenge Tsunade to a brawl, he had his own plans for Konoha. He broke in and seperated, should Tsunade go into battle fighting one on one until she defeats all 6. :confused

Tsunade at the moment likely knew 1 of 2 things, there is no guarentee that she can defeat Pain or she can save lives. :)


Maybe she should have asked someone with a brain to tell her what to do.. like Shikamaru... Don't get me wrong I like Tsunade.. but until I actually see her fight... She is not Hokage material.I think you're comparing what she did against what Hiruzen did against Orochimaru. The biggest difference is that Orochimaru came to Konoha to engage Hiruzen, Pain just came to collect info not to fight Tsunade. Keep in mind that there was plot development that played into what Tsunade did, Pain's invasion was supposed to showcase Naruto not Tsunade. :)

[Forever_Melody]

Once again, people are using ranks/titles as power levels. They are NOT >.>

Being a Kage is first and primarily the leader of the village. Second comes being its protector. Seeing as we were in times of mostly peace until Pain came, all the Kages did were sign papers and work on public affairs so very little fighting involved.

It's a very gross generalization to say "someone is Kage level" because as I've said, Kage is a term relative to the village in which you are.

In a sense, even Jounin/Chunin can be considered as such since they're based off standards which can vary from village/country. I mean, they don't pick the strongest shinobis to be Chunin. Just look at the Chunin exams, the only one taken was Shikamaru and he was far from the strongest of the lot :s

Once again, ranks only give a rough impression of power, but they do not rank anything. Have you ever seen the magna refer to someone as "Kage level" or "Jounin level"? The only isntance I can recall such titles being used as power was the Snadaime/Oro fight where an AnBU said this was truly a Kage level battle since Sandaime was fighting Shodaime and Nidaime, two Kages.

[The_Drunk]

I didn't state that she fulfilled her role as Hokage, just that she fulfilled the role to her best capacity. :) and I told you it takes more than just capacity. EVERYONE HAS CAPACITY.

Well Hiruzen wasn't the only one that was fighting somebody during the Oro invasion, the entire village helped. Minato didn't just have a showdown with the Kyuubi one night, every single shinobi in Konoha was assembled against the Kyuubi. :) Ya but the third stopped Oro from taking over the village. BIG DIFFERENCE ISN'T IT. He made sure that Oro did not succeed even if it cost him his life. He saw his options and managed to seal away Oro's hand so that he could not create anymore jutsus.


She did what she believed to be the best option at the moment. She knows that Pain is someone who is strong enough to defeat Jiraiya. She isn't an idiot to go into battle without any knowledge of the enemy and get killed. Instead of taking an offensive measure she took the defensive measure and waited for Naruto to come back (since Tsunade knew he was the best chance at stopping Pain). :) Everyone makes choices... and she made bad ones. I said she was Jounin level and she showed it... now that I think about it... she didn't even hit him once. What are you going to tell me now... well she didn't have an chance to fight him... and I said earlier until I see her show her stuff... she is Jounin level... You can't prove it because it hasn't happened...


Pain didn't just walk into Konoha and challenge Tsunade to a brawl, he had his own plans for Konoha. He broke in and seperated, should Tsunade go into battle fighting one on one until she defeats all 6. :confused

Tsunade at the moment likely knew 1 of 2 things, there is no guarentee that she can defeat Pain or she can save lives. :)

I think you're comparing what she did against what Hiruzen did against Orochimaru. The biggest difference is that Orochimaru came to Konoha to engage Hiruzen, Pain just came to collect info not to fight Tsunade. Keep in mind that there was plot development that played into what Tsunade did, Pain's invasion was supposed to showcase Naruto not Tsunade. :) Now your just rambling nonsense... your trying to stick up for Tsunade because she failed as Hokage.

[Forever_Melody]

I don't understand your assumption that Tsunade failed as Hokage.

Her being Jounin level has nothing to do with her position as Hokage. In fact, I'm pretty sure most Kages were Jounins before they received the title of Kage so your argument makes no sense calling Tsunade a Jounin because that is likely what she is rank wise >_>

Tsunade is a medic nin and you're blaming her for not being strong enough in battle? That's kind of a flawed assumption :s And what exactly would've been the "right" choice for Tsunade? Let everyone(or most of them) die and then fight Pain to ultimately be defeated herself?

Danzou said it himself, it's thanks to Tsunade(and Katsuyu's jutsu) that mass casualties were avoided during the invasion. I mean, if Pain was stopped, but 90% of the village died, I wouldn't call it a success either.

I'm not going to defend her by saying she's as strong as the other Hokages before her because let's face it, she's not. Why? Because that's not her freakin' place to be! She's a medic nin first and foremost, not a brute fighter like Jiraiya or Orochimaru. If the circumstances involved saving the village from disease or mass pestilence, anyone but Tsunade(and other medics such as Sakura & co) would technically "fail" as Hokage to "protect the village".

I find it a gross and generalized statement to play on people's failures to determine their capacities.

[TheChosenOne]

and I told you it takes more than just capacity. EVERYONE HAS CAPACITY.

This makes no sense, each Hokage's can only do what they are best capable of doing. Could Hiruzen or Minato heal all the people that risked to defend the village ? Tsunade is a better healer than a fighter, it's only logical to do what she did considering she is adept at it. If she fights Pain and gets killed who is to heal all the people that Pain injured, Sakura and Ino ? :confused


Ya but the third stopped Oro from taking over the village. BIG DIFFERENCE ISN'T IT. He made sure that Oro did not succeed even if it cost him his life. He saw his options and managed to seal away Oro's hand so that he could not create anymore jutsus.You missed the point, I was trying to show that defending the village isn't a one man/woman show, everybody helps. It's not like Hiruzen was the only one fighting during the invasion. Hiruzen did stop Oro, but what about all the lives that were lost during the invasion ? Just cuz Hiruzen stopped Oro those lives don't just magically return. Even though Tsunade didn't fight Pain she saved countless lives by using her chakra through Katsuyu. :)


Everyone makes choices... and she made bad ones. I said she was Jounin level and she showed it... now that I think about it... she didn't even hit him once. What are you going to tell me now... well she didn't have an chance to fight him... and I said earlier until I see her show her stuff... she is Jounin level... You can't prove it because it hasn't happened...What does being Jounin level have anything to do with the responsibilities of Hokage ? Level doesn't change what you are assigned to protect and lead once you become a Kage. It's not like being a jounin level means you only have to protect some of the people or you don't have that much responsibility over leading the village. :)


Now your just rambling nonsense... your trying to stick up for Tsunade because she failed as Hokage.Hiruzen failed at being Hokage cuz he couldn't save all those people who died. Minato failed because he couldn't save all those people who died during the Kyuubi attack. There is no specific accomplishment that identifies who succeeded as a Hokage. :)

Did Tsunade protect the village ? Considering she saved Konoha from "total annihilation" as Danzou put it (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/424/03/), I would say yes. Look at what one of the root says "it's meaningless if the people are gone", it's meaningless if Tsunade defeats Pain but all the people are dead. :)

[kai-uchiha]

about tsunade,

yes she tried to protect the village by dispersing katsuyu clones (after it became clear that pain had already penetrated every line of defense) throughout the village, and thereby aiding (giving medical treatment with her chakra) anyone who's injured, while at the same time providing a means to communicate to anyone and everybody who could be use full in the fight against pain.
no doubt this is something only she could do because of her unique skills that no one else possesses.

so in addition to try to not let anyone invade the leaf (obviously something any hokage would have done) her skills made it possible to keep casualties limited to an minimum, and the communication between various people encountering pain made pains ability's clear for the rest (not all of them ofcourse for obvious reasons)
and helped the survivors to formulate a plan.

but,
despite jiraya's sacrifice she did not recognize the danger or increase the security around the village beside warning that something was about to go down and sending naruto away with fukasaku (which was a good discission).
and probably her biggest mistake/failure: her inability to stop danzou and his root in their attempts to sabotage and conspire against her.
thus seriously undermining the leafs power to resist pain (i believe the situation would've been different if root had joined forces with anbu or any of the other jounin)

so i think she could've done more to prevent the whole invasion, but managed to keep most of her villagers alive (although the exact number of casualties is probably gonna be enormous)
she kept faith in her underlings(mainly naruto) which according to shodai, nimdaime and sandaime is a leaders true job.
tsunade could've taken a more active role in organizing a counterattack, but with katsuyu she didn't have to.
however danzou is about to make his move, and when he does i fear tsunade's role will be thoroughly outplayed by him.

so she scores a meager 6 on a scale from 1 to 10, but i'm afraid that things could really get ugly.
and when it does, tsunade will be caught like a rabbit staring into the headlights.

(wow i didn't mean to make it so long :o)

[kkck]

^I dont think tsunade could have done that much more. The reason all of this happened was not tunades incompetence but peins power. Pein managed to get close to the village without being detected and killing every ninja he came across with. At least when itachi did it, he knew how to get past the villages defenses without activating them.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/418/15/

Had pein made one mistake when coming to the village he would have been detected long before he even got in He even managed to come up with a plan which would confuse the village on the moment he entered.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/419/03/

Not to mention when he did that, he apparently still was a few miles away rom the village. Pein is probably the only one aside from madara who can infiltrate a place while being several miles away from the place itself.

And once pein was inside, he proved he was strong enough to handle several hundred ninjas on his own. He literally faced a military organization on his own and won, something even a ninja of oros caliber said was imposible.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/216/16/

Also, tsunade pulled of something no other hokage would have been able to do, she treated the injuries of the hundred on injured ninjas in the village. I hate to say it, but if it had been jiraiya in the chair instead of tsunade, the result would have been much worst. Hell, no other hokage would have been able to protect the village to the degree tsunade did. No other hokage had the ability to treat injuries of hundred on persons at the same time. And for those who say tsunade took too long to get into the battlefield, Are you insane? The hokage is a decision maker, he isn't supposed to jump into the battlefield on every chance. If tsunade had jumped into the battlefield, the village would have lost its leader extremely fast, the one who is supposed to lead, would not have been able to do so. The hokage putting his life on the line is the most extreme measure a village can take, it comes after every other option has been exhausted.

[The_Drunk]

you guys are just trying to stick up for Tsunade... making up excuses for her.. when you know deep down she is not that talented. We have only seen two skills... Let me remind you guys what those skills are
1. The ability to heal
2. The ability to destroy anything she hits. (If she can hit it)
That's it people... there is nothing else she can do... She is Jounin level at best. Every Hokage before her had a vast array of jutsu's... You get what I'm saying.. Go ahead and compare them.... Just because you have one amazing Jutsu doesn't put you in the Hokage category. I just summed up her Jutsu's and compared to the other Hokages in this manga.. she isn't even close to comparing to them.

[kkck]

you guys are just trying to stick up for Tsunade... making up excuses for her.. when you know deep down she is not that talented. We have only seen two skills... Let me remind you guys what those skills are
1. The ability to heal
2. The ability to destroy anything she hits. (If she can hit it)
That's it people... there is nothing else she can do... She is Jounin level at best. Every Hokage before her had a vast array of jutsu's... You get what I'm saying.. Go ahead and compare them.... Just because you have one amazing Jutsu doesn't put you in the Hokage category. I just summed up her Jutsu's and compared to the other Hokages in this manga.. she isn't even close to comparing to them.

You clearly have not been reading the same manga as the rest of us, or at the very least fail to understand what being a hokage means. Perhabs tsunade wouldnt have been able to take the other hokages in combat (which is plausible but at the same time debatable), but the way she recently protected the village is by far beyond beyond what any previous kage would have been capable off.

Do you really believe any of the previous hokages would have done a better job? Considering the nature of the position, they would have stayed back and give orders, and only after a number of casualties would have appeared, they would have go face the enemy. And even they, they would have still have to face the full magnitude of peins power (considering elite level jonnin are not enough to take out just one body). How would have any previous kage stopped super shirai tensei, multiple massive summons, a body with thousands of missiles, the capacity to revive all those bodies, ect... Even naruto after surpassing jiraiya and apparently minato (who were in the same tier as any previous kage)with 3 massive summons, two 800 year old wise and powerful sages, and katsuyu providing detailed info on each body, and a cheap shot on pein most offensive body, managed to get his ass handed to him by just deva who turned the battle around in a sec. To be fair, even if we take what we know of each kage to an extreme, they still would have a very hard time againts pein, and in a worst case scenario be defeated while just taking out a few bodies at best.

One way or the other, if tsunade hadnt been the hokage, the amount of casualties would have been inmensely greater, and many many more would have died from shinra tensei.

[Forever_Melody]

you guys are just trying to stick up for Tsunade... making up excuses for her.. when you know deep down she is not that talented. We have only seen two skills... Let me remind you guys what those skills are
1. The ability to heal
2. The ability to destroy anything she hits. (If she can hit it)
That's it people... there is nothing else she can do... She is Jounin level at best. Every Hokage before her had a vast array of jutsu's... You get what I'm saying.. Go ahead and compare them.... Just because you have one amazing Jutsu doesn't put you in the Hokage category. I just summed up her Jutsu's and compared to the other Hokages in this manga.. she isn't even close to comparing to them.

And you're making up excuses as to why she shouldn't be where she is/ We're just on 2 different sides of the same fence :tem

And why are you comparing her to previous Hokages? :s

I repeat, she is NOT a fighter shinobi. Why bother comparing her to such? Do I compare a basketball player with a hockey player and say the basketball player sucks at hockey? That's not the main purpose of it! >_>

Tsunade heals, that is her first and primary function as a shinobi. She is the reason medic nins were even introduced on a regular basis in shinobi teams. If you put any other Hokage in comparison to her in terms of medical abilities, they're gennin level at best >_>(considering no other Kage has even shown a basic medic jutsu) Your argument makes little sense... :o

And I repeat once again, whoever said a Kage's level was determined by the firepower they had? You're assuming she's not Kage level because she's not strong enough, but where was it ever said that was a threshold of any kind?? The only reference to Kages & strength is that a Kage is the strongest person in the village and currently, Tsunade is probably in the top 5 strongest people in Konoha.

Argue whatever you want, but the fact is that there is no logic in saying anything about Tsunade and her position. She's Hokage currently. Deal with it.

[The_Drunk]

And I repeat once again, whoever said a Kage's level was determined by the firepower they had? You're assuming she's not Kage level because she's not strong enough, but where was it ever said that was a threshold of any kind?? The only reference to Kages & strength is that a Kage is the strongest person in the village and currently, Please help me compare Tsunade to the other Hokages... Make me understand why she really is the strongest shinobi in Konoha... because she only has two skills and thats it. She is a Jounin at best. Please help me understand why she isn't a Jounin. Ohh I know she's strong enough, but does she have the skill level. Naruto is strong enough, but just as everyone say's he does not have the skill. Naruto may have some skill now but in the beginning he didn't have any skill. All he knew was rasengan and kage bushin.... Does that put him in Hokage catagory... nope... As I said before she's only shown us two skills and thats it... So please help me understand how she deserves to be glorified as a Hokage and Naruto not, because neither of them are at Hokage level.
[hr]

You clearly have not been reading the same manga as the rest of us, or at the very least fail to understand what being a hokage means. Perhabs tsunade wouldnt have been able to take the other hokages in combat (which is plausible but at the same time debatable), but the way she recently protected the village is by far beyond beyond what any previous kage would have been capable off. Hey I'm just going by what we've seen.. Don't assume that the other Hokages wouldn't have been able to stand up to Pain. So don't get upset and start blabbering theories and should haves because the other Hokages are not there to prove your assumptions.


what we know of each kage to an extreme, they still would have a very hard time againts pein, and in a worst case scenario be defeated while just taking out a few bodies at best. at least we agreed on something... They would have taken out at least one. What about Tsunade? Oh that's right she couldn't do anything because all she knows how to do is punch. Maybe she can use some of that speed.. wait a minute she doesn't have any speed... So what can she do against an enemy. Just heal the wounded! So what happens when she runs out of chakra and can't heal them anymore... Nothing.. everyone dies...


One way or the other, if tsunade hadnt been the hokage, the amount of casualties would have been inmensely greater, and many many more would have died from shinra tensei. It's a good thing Naruto showed up when he did because the whole village would have been dead. She couldn't even dodge that one realm. Man she just sucks... Go ahead and stick up for her as much as you want.. but I know it kills you to know that she does not have any skills. Ohh and by the way.. maybe you should read up on the other Hokages before Tsunade and read up on their skills. Don't just read the manga, but investigate it. You say she has the skill level to protect the village but she doesn't. I guess that's why they chose the 4th Hokage over Tsunade... I guess once the 4th died they should have given it to Tsunade, but they better sleep on that one... forget it even though he's old as shit we better give it back to 3rd Hokage... wow... even an old geezer is better at that position than Tsunade.... It's a good thing J-man turned down the position if not we wouldn't be having this debate...

[Beldin]

Please help me understand why she isn't a Jounin.
because kishimoto said that, both in the manga and in the databook

[XxRyujinxX]

Please help me compare Tsunade to the other Hokages... Make me understand why she really is the strongest shinobi in Konoha... because she only has two skills and thats it. She is a Jounin at best. Please help me understand why she isn't a Jounin. Ohh I know she's strong enough, but does she have the skill level. Naruto is strong enough, but just as everyone say's he does not have the skill. Naruto may have some skill now but in the beginning he didn't have any skill. All he knew was rasengan and kage bushin.... Does that put him in Hokage catagory... nope... As I said before she's only shown us two skills and thats it... So please help me understand how she deserves to be glorified as a Hokage and Naruto not, because neither of them are at Hokage level.


Really though, that's like saying Minato wasn't Hokage-material cus, as far as we know, all he had was Hiraishin and Rasengan. A number of skills doesn't really define any position. Shikamaru, for instance, was the only one to graduate to Chuunin the first time around, and he ONLY demonstrated Kage Mane during the exams, whereas other genins, such as Neji and Gaara, had many more than just one.

Additionally, suppose any other Hokage had gone up against Pain, even with prior knowledge. Naruto was wasting Pain while Deva was out of the equation, and he's definitely climbing up on the power ladder. But again, presume that any other Hokage had squared off against him from the start, as soon as he walked into the village. Sage Mode Naruto stood virtually no chance against Deva Pain alone, much less all 6 bodies at full power. Probably one of the other Hokage's might have faired a bit better than Naruto. But what happens when he decides to rip Konoha a new one with Shinra Tensei? Do you really think that any of them could have done a better job against the scale of that technique than Tsunade did?

[The_Drunk]

because kishimoto said that, both in the manga and in the databook
so do you believe Naruto is a chunin.. because Kishimoto still has him classified as chunin...
[hr]

Really though, that's like saying Minato wasn't Hokage-material cus, as far as we know, all he had was Hiraishin and Rasengan. I'm sorry.. just two jutsus.... What? Go read his stats... he has more than two... let me tell you some of them... the sealing death god technique... body flicker... not to mention being a sage...


Additionally, suppose any other Hokage had gone up against Pain, even with prior knowledge. Naruto was wasting Pain while Deva was out of the equation, and he's definitely climbing up on the power ladder. But again, presume that any other Hokage had squared off against him from the start, as soon as he walked into the village. Sage Mode Naruto stood virtually no chance against Deva Pain alone, much less all 6 bodies at full power. Probably one of the other Hokage's might have faired a bit better than Naruto. But what happens when he decides to rip Konoha a new one with Shinra Tensei? Do you really think that any of them could have done a better job against the scale of that technique than Tsunade did? Umm from the looks of it.. Naruto is still fighting Deva Pain by himself isn't he? Is the fight over? And please don't forget.. I said Naruto still isn't Hokage material. Naruto still lacks the arsenal of jutsus that will eventually be available to him. The previous Hokages had an arsenal of Jutsus at their disposal. That's what Tsunade needs.

[XxRyujinxX]

I'm sorry.. just two jutsus.... What? Go read his stats... he has more than two... let me tell you some of them... the sealing death god technique... body flicker... not to mention being a sage...

Umm from the looks of it.. Naruto is still fighting Deva Pain by himself isn't he? Is the fight over? And please don't forget.. I said Naruto still isn't Hokage material. Naruto still lacks the arsenal of jutsus that will eventually be available to him. The previous Hokages had an arsenal of Jutsus at their disposal. That's what Tsunade needs.

Oh right. Forgot to mention Shunshin, which just about any Chuunin who has even mediocre Taijutsu skills has (hell, Gaara's had this since the Chuunin exams <_>), the Shiki Fujin, which kills him, and his summoning, which, I point out, Tsunade has anyway. What's being a sage got to do with anything? Doesn't say anywhere that he actually used Sage Mode. I'm not saying that Minato is weak, by any means. Obviously he's one of the best, to be able to take on the Kyuubi. But would you say that he's not worthy of the Hokage title, since he had to sacrifice his own life for the win while Hashirama took down both Madara and the Kyuubi?

Naruto in Sage Mode, though, definitely has some power that can compete with some of the Narutoverse's strongest. He's at least as good as Kakashi, while maintaining Sage Mode, given that Kakashi got himself screwed up just from fighting Deva and Asura Pain. Sure, Naruto got information on the bodies, but did it really help him at all? He seemed to beat down each of the other bodies without any trouble.

And by your standards, it seems like Sasuke is kage material, since his known jutsu list is bigger than anybody's at the moment.

[The_Drunk]

Oh right. Forgot to mention Shunshin, which just about any Chuunin who has even mediocre Taijutsu skills has (hell, Gaara's had this since the Chuunin exams <_>), the Shiki Fujin, which kills him, and his summoning, which, I point out, Tsunade has anyway. What's being a sage got to do with anything? Doesn't say anywhere that he actually used Sage Mode. I'm not saying that Minato is weak, by any means. Obviously he's one of the best, to be able to take on the Kyuubi. But would you say that he's not worthy of the Hokage title, since he had to sacrifice his own life for the win while Hashirama took down both Madara and the Kyuubi?

Naruto in Sage Mode, though, definitely has some power that can compete with some of the Narutoverse's strongest. He's at least as good as Kakashi, while maintaining Sage Mode, given that Kakashi got himself screwed up just from fighting Deva and Asura Pain. Sure, Naruto got information on the bodies, but did it really help him at all? He seemed to beat down each of the other bodies without any trouble.

And by your standards, it seems like Sasuke is kage material, since his known jutsu list is bigger than anybody's at the moment. I never said Naruto is Hokage material... nor did I ever put Sasuke in that category either. Let me tell you who I believe is at the Hokage level... Pain..of course... Madara... and that's it... these are the people who are living. I would have included Itachi and J-man but they are dead... To be honest with you.. when Sauske had CS2... he would have been Hokage material... I truly believe that Sauske *CS2* would have easily taken out Tsunade... He was just to fast and too many jutsus at his disposal. But he doesn't have CS2 anymore... He is no longer Hokage material.

[Forever_Melody]

Please help me compare Tsunade to the other Hokages... Make me understand why she really is the strongest shinobi in Konoha... because she only has two skills and thats it. She is a Jounin at best. Please help me understand why she isn't a Jounin. Ohh I know she's strong enough, but does she have the skill level. Naruto is strong enough, but just as everyone say's he does not have the skill. Naruto may have some skill now but in the beginning he didn't have any skill. All he knew was rasengan and kage bushin.... Does that put him in Hokage catagory... nope... As I said before she's only shown us two skills and thats it... So please help me understand how she deserves to be glorified as a Hokage and Naruto not, because neither of them are at Hokage level.

You're just repeating yourself lol :p

Why do you even compare Tsunade to the other Hokages? They're not the same people >_> I don't compare you to my brother, because there's no point and because yo're not the same person >_>

I totally agree that she isn't that strong. In fact, there's a reason for that, she's a medic-nin! You seem to be overlooking that point time and again. Her primary purpose isn't to be strong in battle so it's normal she isn't... Her specialty lies in medical practices. Try and compare any one shinobi with Tsunade in her field and I guarantee you only a handful of shinobis will even come close to her prowess. Yes, you can say she's a "Jounin level" in battle(which btw makes no sense because once again, the manga has never ever ever ever classified ninja ranks as power ranks), but hell, everyone else is a "genin" level in medical practices save Sakura, Kabuto & Shizune.

And your argument on who's "Hokage material" or not is flawed because the term Kage is based on the entire village. There isn't any rule in the manga saying "You must be at least this strong to be a Kage".

You also exclude the other primary things for being a Kage other than being strong. You need to be have the right leadership skills, diplomatic skills as well as the ability to put the village before yourself. THOSE things are what really define a Kage. Not just the fact that they can make lots of things go "boom" -_-;

[The_Drunk]

You're just repeating yourself lol :p

Why do you even compare Tsunade to the other Hokages? They're not the same people >_> I don't compare you to my brother, because there's no point and because yo're not the same person >_>

I totally agree that she isn't that strong. In fact, there's a reason for that, she's a medic-nin! You seem to be overlooking that point time and again. Her primary purpose isn't to be strong in battle so it's normal she isn't... Her specialty lies in medical practices. Try and compare any one shinobi with Tsunade in her field and I guarantee you only a handful of shinobis will even come close to her prowess. Yes, you can say she's a "Jounin level" in battle Sounds like your singing the same tune over and over again... are you mad because I'm talking down to your favorite character and that it happens to be a woman. Don't tell me your a feminist... that is blinded by the fact that she is a woman and does not have the ability to be in the Hokage category. So you find meaningless reasons why she deserves the title of Hokage. Your one reason she deserves this title is that she is the most powerful medical ninja. Wow... sounds like another Sakura who's always complaining that she can only do the dumbest of things. Let me tell you one thing... if it takes more than just being able to fight to be Hokage... Then Shikamaru deserves the title of Hokage over Tsunade any day. Matter of fact why don't we just kick her off the manga and kill her off so that Kishi puts someone in charge who at the very least knows how to make good choices.

[XxRyujinxX]

Sounds like your singing the same tune over and over again... are you mad because I'm talking down to your favorite character and that it happens to be a woman. Don't tell me your a feminist... that is blinded by the fact that she is a woman and does not have the ability to be in the Hokage category. So you find meaningless reasons why she deserves the title of Hokage. Your one reason she deserves this title is that she is the most powerful medical ninja. Wow... sounds like another Sakura who's always complaining that she can only do the dumbest of things. Let me tell you one thing... if it takes more than just being able to fight to be Hokage... Then Shikamaru deserves the title of Hokage over Tsunade any day. Matter of fact why don't we just kick her off the manga and kill her off so that Kishi puts someone in charge who at the very least knows how to make good choices.

So what does it take, exactly, to be Hokage, other than being able to fight? The difference between Tsunade and Shikamaru is that Tsunade has the charisma that Shikamaru doesn't. Sure, Shikamaru is a super-genius, but even with his new, work-hard attitude, he really doesn't have the qualities necessary to lead an entire village. Experience is another big thing that she has that a lot of other ninjas don't. Of the living ones that we know of, she's probably pretty close to the oldest one, and has much more life experience than even Kakashi, much less some of the other candidates. Wisdom is simply something that's necessary in a leader, and Tsunade has a good 50 years or so under her belt.

And as for her 'poor' decision making, what should she have done? It's been stated in this thread already that she's not a fighter type. Do you think that she should have gone up against Pain directly, rather than sit behind the scenes and prevent the number of casualties that she did?

[Hojinmaru]

Tsunade is a veteran of the last ninja war, battle tested and honored as one of the Three Legandary Sannin. She helped bring about the use of medical ninja in squads to increase survivability on missions. She was selected by the 3rd Hokage's squad as a replacement (yes, after Jiraiya declined). She's managed to bring the village back from an attack that left portions of the city destroyed (Oro). Now she has to face off against Akatsuki and the Rinningan. No offence to anyone, but I think she did exactly what she should have done. It's not the leaders job to just run off and jump into battle, it's to command your forces and defend what is most precious, THE PEOPLE. And that is exactly what Tsunade did. She is a worthy Hokage and has lived up to the title. The village can be rebuild, stronger, better, but not the people. She has demonstrated the necessary decision making abilities, battle wisdom and personality traits needed to be called a Kage.

[DarkManSharingan32]

I've said this countless times:
A Kage only needs to be strong enough to protect the entire villiage.

Tsunade with the aid of Katsuyu was able to do that to some degree.

She has also been integral is establishing a working relationship with the Sand Villiage and may turn out to be Leaf's strongest ally. She has also shown great knowledge of tactics mobilizing against Akatsuki... and she has a fervent will to entrust her "will of fire" to the next generation.

She may not look good on paper in an Ninjutsu battle... but remember, she hasn't yet had the opportunity to show her true colors in battle.

[The_Drunk]

I've said this countless times:
A Kage only needs to be strong enough to protect the entire villiage.

Tsunade with the aid of Katsuyu was able to do that to some degree.

She has also been integral is establishing a working relationship with the Sand Villiage and may turn out to be Leaf's strongest ally. She has also shown great knowledge of tactics mobilizing against Akatsuki... and she has a fervent will to entrust her "will of fire" to the next generation.

She may not look good on paper in an Ninjutsu battle... but remember, she hasn't yet had the opportunity to show her true colors in battle.
Thank you... for not being blinded by her title and calling it like it is. You are the only person to notice that she hasn't shown us her true colors in battle. All we have to go on is what we've seen. If a person hasn't shown us what they can do how can you say she can hold her own in battle. Oh and Hojinmaru how can she be a veteran of war when all she did was stay in the background and play medic. Oro and J-man were the one's in battle while Tsunade did what she could and heal people. Don't kill the messenger for pointing out the obvious.

[XxRyujinxX]

Thank you... for not being blinded by her title and calling it like it is. You are the only person to notice that she hasn't shown us her true colors in battle. All we have to go on is what we've seen. If a person hasn't shown us what they can do how can you say she can hold her own in battle. Oh and Hojinmaru how can she be a veteran of war when all she did was stay in the background and play medic. Oro and J-man were the one's in battle while Tsunade did what she could and heal people. Don't kill the messenger for pointing out the obvious.

They're not called the Sanin for nothing, dude. No one said (I don't think, anyway) anything about her having gone all-out in battle yet, but that doesn't mean that she doesn't know how to put up a fight. But why would she? She's a medic nin. She's supposed to stay in the rear and heal. Medics there are to save lives- not take them. And let's not forget that she's the best known medic in the Naruto universe too, right?

And how can she be a veteran of war? Are you suggesting that only the people on the front lines can become veterans? And who's to say that she didn't do any fighting in the first place? There'd be no point in that strength of hers if she hasn't clocked an enemy ninja or two with it.

[Forever_Melody]

Sounds like your singing the same tune over and over again... are you mad because I'm talking down to your favorite character and that it happens to be a woman. Don't tell me your a feminist... that is blinded by the fact that she is a woman and does not have the ability to be in the Hokage category. So you find meaningless reasons why she deserves the title of Hokage. Your one reason she deserves this title is that she is the most powerful medical ninja. Wow... sounds like another Sakura who's always complaining that she can only do the dumbest of things. Let me tell you one thing... if it takes more than just being able to fight to be Hokage... Then Shikamaru deserves the title of Hokage over Tsunade any day. Matter of fact why don't we just kick her off the manga and kill her off so that Kishi puts someone in charge who at the very least knows how to make good choices.
lol I'm not a feminist and Tsunade isn't my favorite character. In fact, chances are she'd be easily overshadowed by her male counterparts(Jiraiya and Orochimaru). And I suggest you refrain from making any personal comments on the poster in your argument. It just makes your whole point lack credibility(and if it gets too intense, we'll have to deal with it).

The fact that I don't agree on is that she doesn't deserve her title. If Jiraiya and the Elders thought it agreeable that she take the Hokage position, that means that, somehow, somewhere, there was a valid reason for her to be Hokage. Maybe that reason was as dumb as "there wa snobody ebtter at the time", but it's still a reason.

And read my post again, I didn't say she deserved to be Hokage because she is the most powerful medical nin(mind you, by your logic, if I was the most powerful fighter, I'd deserve to be Hokage...>_>). I said that fighting isn't her primary domain, therefore it's kind of obvious she isn't as good at it as other people. It's pointless to compare her to people who are good at it, because she's not supposed to be good at it(at least, not dominantly good over her medical prowess).

And yes, she has yet to show us an actual all out fight, but fighting isn't her pre-dominant aspect so don't expect her to show anything like Jiraiya or Orochimaru when she does fight.

And it seems we're at a crossroads. Are you arguing that from what we've seen Tsunade doesn't deserve to be Hokage or do you think she's unworthy of the title period?

[1TrueSensei]

I agree with -Melody- on this all the way. I spit on the term "Kage level" because it's a vague, fanmade term used to classify people that fails all the time. If a sneak attack wiped out every shinobi in Konoha except for Tenten, Tenten would automatically be Kage level because she would technically be the strongest shinobi left in the village. See the flaw in that classification?

As for Tsunade being Hokage she was perfectly qualified for the position. She had the pedigree which would satisfy the elders (granddaughter of Hashirama), she had the reputation both in the medical field and in battle (in case some members have forgotten, Oro himself said that the reason why Tsunade became so famous is because of her victims, not her patients), and she had the age and (presumably) the wisdom needed to run a village. More than enough to qualify for the position. Anyone saying something contrary is just character bashing, which I've seen more than enough of personally.

[kkck]

^Well, jiraiya also said it was tsunade and her jutsu which brought victory in battle years ago, thats gotta count for something.

[The_Drunk]

lol I'm not a feminist and Tsunade isn't my favorite character. In fact, chances are she'd be easily overshadowed by her male counterparts(Jiraiya and Orochimaru). And I suggest you refrain from making any personal comments on the poster in your argument. It just makes your whole point lack credibility(and if it gets too intense, we'll have to deal with it).

The fact that I don't agree on is that she doesn't deserve her title. If Jiraiya and the Elders thought it agreeable that she take the Hokage position, that means that, somehow, somewhere, there was a valid reason for her to be Hokage. Maybe that reason was as dumb as "there wa snobody ebtter at the time", but it's still a reason.

And read my post again, I didn't say she deserved to be Hokage because she is the most powerful medical nin(mind you, by your logic, if I was the most powerful fighter, I'd deserve to be Hokage...>_>). I said that fighting isn't her primary domain, therefore it's kind of obvious she isn't as good at it as other people. It's pointless to compare her to people who are good at it, because she's not supposed to be good at it(at least, not dominantly good over her medical prowess).

And yes, she has yet to show us an actual all out fight, but fighting isn't her pre-dominant aspect so don't expect her to show anything like Jiraiya or Orochimaru when she does fight.

And it seems we're at a crossroads. Are you arguing that from what we've seen Tsunade doesn't deserve to be Hokage or do you think she's unworthy of the title period?

Please I don't want you to think that I'm bashing you in any way. If I suggested you may be a feminist it would be an observation. If your not one then it shouldn't bother you. I know that the woman of Naruto for the most part hide in the shadows against major opponents except for Sakura. (finally) I was actually hoping to see Tsunade in battle, but it hasn't happened. So how can anyone say that she could stand toe to toe with the other Hokages before her. I understand that Kishi gave her the title of Hokage and that's not what I'm disputing. I'm disputing the fact that compared to the other Hokages, she is a mere Jounin. Yes she has the title but could she hold her own against the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th Hokage. From what we've seen she might as well pack up her bags and go train some more. The Hokages before Tsunade we're not only wise but powerful. It's unfortunate that Kishi hasn't shown us her true potential.

[Beldin]

so do you believe Naruto is a chunin.. because Kishimoto still has him classified as chunin
naruto is a genin

ad of course: kishimoto is the author, not me.

if he said in many ways that tsunade is an hokage level and she is at the same level of orochimaru (databook III) then she is

[ninjabot]

I won't bother with an asessment of Tsunade's skills because I don't wanna get into titles and there validity when comparing ninja power levels... I just wanted to remind everyone that Senjutsu is a supplementary jutsu. Ninja who are practitioners of said jutsu are only remarkable when said jutsu is in effect.

So, let's say a ninja starts off as a slightly above average-level chuunin, but then uses Senjutsu to boost their powers to the level that everyone starts comparing them to people like Jiraiya and Yondaime. Does those statements make that ninja Kage level?

I consider every aspect of the ninja's repertoire when considering that ninja's "level". Haveing one game-breaking power-up doesn't amplify someone's level 1 or 2 ranks alone. So, being inferior to your peers beforehand (base stats), but having a massive power boost that places your strength and speed far above your peers (only when said jutsu is in effect) doesn't impress me in the least. It's the total package you have to look at. What type of ninja are they? How resourceful are they? How knowledgable are they in every aspect of ninja arts?

All I'm saying is, don't be jaded by the most recent chapters. Think about the history of the ninja, what their specialties and weaknesses are, aswell as power and skill.

EDIT: Before you jump to conclusions, this isn't an attempt at bashing Naruto. I'm well aware that though superior, Sasuke isn't what one should consider "Kage level" either.

[Forever_Melody]

Please I don't want you to think that I'm bashing you in any way. If I suggested you may be a feminist it would be an observation. If your not one then it shouldn't bother you. I know that the woman of Naruto for the most part hide in the shadows against major opponents except for Sakura. (finally) I was actually hoping to see Tsunade in battle, but it hasn't happened. So how can anyone say that she could stand toe to toe with the other Hokages before her. I understand that Kishi gave her the title of Hokage and that's not what I'm disputing. I'm disputing the fact that compared to the other Hokages, she is a mere Jounin. Yes she has the title but could she hold her own against the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th Hokage. From what we've seen she might as well pack up her bags and go train some more. The Hokages before Tsunade we're not only wise but powerful. It's unfortunate that Kishi hasn't shown us her true potential.
Then we have no disagreement here :)

I also agree that Tsunade isn't as strong as the previous Hokages. In fact, she's probably not even in the same league.

Point to take is that she's not a fighter so it's kind of expected of her not to be in the same class as people who are considered primarily fighter type shinobi.

Also note that Tsunade's strength in comparison to the previous Hokages doesn't really change much because the title is given in comparison to the current crop of shinobis in the village. When Sandaime died, Jiraiya was given the position and when he refused, Tsunade was the 2nd best choice. Just because you're a Hokage doesn't mean you can stand toe-to-toe with any others of the same name as you. A Kage title is given in the context of the village in its current state. Who is strong, smart & charismatic enough to be leader of the village at a specific time.

There is no indication in the manga of any specific strength, intelligence or leadership threshold that one must pass to be Hokage. If tomorrow every strong shinobi died except Kakashi, he would chosen as Hokage because at the time the village required a Hokage, he'd have been the most appropriate choice(as stated by Jiraiya & Tsunade). Would that make him a good Hokage compared to the previous ones? Probably not, but for the time the village needs one, he's the best they've got. I mean, Kakashi can't compare to the previous Hokages and he certainly cannot fend off the higher end villains that threaten Konoha, but Konoha needs a figure to stand at its head, even if simply for image's sake(so that other villages don't see they're falling into chaos).

[THM Nindo]

Please I don't want you to think that I'm bashing you in any way. If I suggested you may be a feminist it would be an observation. If your not one then it shouldn't bother you. I know that the woman of Naruto for the most part hide in the shadows against major opponents except for Sakura. (finally) I was actually hoping to see Tsunade in battle, but it hasn't happened. So how can anyone say that she could stand toe to toe with the other Hokages before her. I understand that Kishi gave her the title of Hokage and that's not what I'm disputing. I'm disputing the fact that compared to the other Hokages, she is a mere Jounin. Yes she has the title but could she hold her own against the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th Hokage. From what we've seen she might as well pack up her bags and go train some more. The Hokages before Tsunade we're not only wise but powerful. It's unfortunate that Kishi hasn't shown us her true potential.

I think everyone agrees that Tsunade wouldn't stand a chance in a fight against any of the previous 4 hokage.

But, do say that she doesn't deserve to be Hokage would be wrong.
Who else, from Konoha is stronger than her?

Jiraiya - refused the Hokage position
Orochimaru - missing nin
Kabuto (probably not stronger, but whatever) - missing nin
Kakashi (is he really stronger than her?) - Potential Hokage, but IMO, that's not his place
Danzou (maybe stronger, we don't know) - Working on it right now
Naruto - He will eventually be the best, but again, he's not the kind of guy to stand behind a desk, he will fight
Sasuke - Not a really good Hokage, since his primary objective is the destruction of Konoha :p

So, basically, if we had to name the best Hokage, that would be between Tsunade, Kakashi and Danzou...

Kakashi would be a bad Hokage, he's a fighter, not a "diplomat".
And Danzou, would he have done a better job?!

I think from all the people named above, Tsunade is the best fit to be Hokage.
And regarding Pain's attack, none of the previous Hokage would have been able to avoid it.

As soon as Pain would have feel he's losing, he would have use the Mega Shinra Tensei and would have killed everyone.
Tsunade was the only one amongst the 5 Hokages who could save everyone (Unless the 1st could do a "wood wall" to protect the village from the blast)...

She did a great job, and was more than worthy to be Hokage.
The position (Jonin) isn't only measure with strenght...

Shikamaru is Jonin level, but he's not that strong.
Same think for Sakura, she sould be a Jonin, IMO...

Anyway, you get my point :p
[hr]

Then we have no disagreement here :)

I also agree that Tsunade isn't as strong as the previous Hokages. In fact, she's probably not even in the same league.

Point to take is that she's not a fighter so it's kind of expected of her not to be in the same class as people who are considered primarily fighter type shinobi.

Also note that Tsunade's strength in comparison to the previous Hokages doesn't really change much because the title is given in comparison to the current crop of shinobis in the village. When Sandaime died, Jiraiya was given the position and when he refused, Tsunade was the 2nd best choice. Just because you're a Hokage doesn't mean you can stand toe-to-toe with any others of the same name as you. A Kage title is given in the context of the village in its current state. Who is strong, smart & charismatic enough to be leader of the village at a specific time.

There is no indication in the manga of any specific strength, intelligence or leadership threshold that one must pass to be Hokage. If tomorrow every strong shinobi died except Kakashi, he would chosen as Hokage because at the time the village required a Hokage, he'd have been the most appropriate choice(as stated by Jiraiya & Tsunade). Would that make him a good Hokage compared to the previous ones? Probably not, but for the time the village needs one, he's the best they've got. I mean, Kakashi can't compare to the previous Hokages and he certainly cannot fend off the higher end villains that threaten Konoha, but Konoha needs a figure to stand at its head, even if simply for image's sake(so that other villages don't see they're falling into chaos).

Should have read you post before posting my reply :p
You're basically saying the exact same thing than me, but you explain it better ;)
[hr]

I won't bother with an asessment of Tsunade's skills because I don't wanna get into titles and there validity when comparing ninja power levels... I just wanted to remind everyone that Senjutsu is a supplementary jutsu. Ninja who are practitioners of said jutsu are only remarkable when said jutsu is in effect.

So, let's say a ninja starts off as a slightly above average-level chuunin, but then uses Senjutsu to boost their powers to the level that everyone starts comparing them to people like Jiraiya and Yondaime. Does those statements make that ninja Kage level?

I consider every aspect of the ninja's repertoire when considering that ninja's "level". Haveing one game-breaking power-up doesn't amplify someone's level 1 or 2 ranks alone. So, being inferior to your peers beforehand (base stats), but having a massive power boost that places your strength and speed far above your peers (only when said jutsu is in effect) doesn't impress me in the least. It's the total package you have to look at. What type of ninja are they? How resourceful are they? How knowledgable are they in every aspect of ninja arts?

All I'm saying is, don't be jaded by the most recent chapters. Think about the history of the ninja, what their specialties and weaknesses are, aswell as power and skill.

EDIT: Before you jump to conclusions, this isn't an attempt at bashing Naruto. I'm well aware that though superior, Sasuke isn't what one should consider "Kage level" either.

I kinda see where you're going with this. And I agree.
Just like Lee and Gai aren't Kage level, but if they open all 8-Gates, they will be stronger than the Kage (that's what Gai said)...

They still remain Jonin level, because a One-Time Uber Jutsu shouldn't be consider as your "natural" strengh and skills.

[Delbi]

@Homemade nindo: Saying Kakashi would be a bad Hokage because he isn't a "diplomat" is very stupid lol. None of the past Hokages were "diplomats" in fact the first two were warriors who fought for years before they found peace. Kakashi is intelligent, strong, a capable leader, and he cares for his fellow shinobi and has shown both mercy (see Zabuza and Haku) and can be brutal and lethal when ever he needs to be.

Anyway, I think the whole thing about who is fit to be a Hokage, is all situational.

First of all, the Hokage is a leader, he/she does not have to be the "strongest" or most "powerful" ninja in their village. The number 1 quality for a Hokage is their leadership abilities, in this sense, Tsuande has shown to be amazing, although her village was destroyed, she saved the vast majority of people and organized an effective counterassualt. It was just too bad that she couldn't figure in the fact the Deva Pain is vastly superior to almost every shinobi we have seen thus far.

[The_Drunk]

OKAY... I can't believe after going back and forth with Forever-Melody people still don't understand what we're talking about.... This topic is about Ninja levels in Naruto So I mentioned that Tsunade is not Kage level.. and everyone starts bashing my opinion. So here I am again trying to get you to understand where I'm coming from, and I'm going to do it just a little different than the way I've been saying it. Okay... here we go... this was the template that was given to us by the person who started this thread...
1. Academy Student
This is for the ninjas that aren't even worthy of being called Ninja.

2. Genin
This is for the beginning Ninja, or ninjas that can't possibly lead a team (a requirement for the next level.)

3. Chunnin
This is for the average Ninja, who have a good knowledge in jutsu and his able to make decision and lead a team.

4. Special Jounin
This is for those jounin that are specialist in one domain (ex: Ambus are expert in stealth and assassination, Ibiki is expert in interrogation, Ebisu is an exceptionnal teacher,etc).
They might not be full-fledge Jounin, but they're good enough in one domain to have the "Jounin" rank.

5. Jounin
This is for the elite Ninja, who have shown skills in jutsu and are among the strongest of the village.

6. Sannin-level
This is for those who have skills that could compare to the three Sannins (Jiraiya, Tsunade and Orochimaru).

7. Kage-level
This is for those that are worthy of being called "Kage", the strongest

I believe that Tsunade is not in the Kage category... because compared to the other Hokages... she is not on their level. Lets just say that all the main characters died except for the guy making the ramen noddles. Then he would be named the Hokage of Konoha because he would be the strongest shinobi in Konoha, but is he in the Kage category.. NO HE IS NOT. I'm not saying that Tsunade isn't capable of being Kage material, but until Kishi shows us her skills in a true battle she is only a Jounin. I know that she was given the title of Sannin, but I believe she was given that title because she was with Oro and J-man. She was part of a team that had two very talented people. I think she is in the same category with Kakashi. I'm sure if it was a show down between Kakashi and Tsunade... Kakashi would win. Maybe that should be a topic.

[Forever_Melody]

Well the reason I'm arguing with Drunk is because I disagree with the main topic of the thread i.e. that ranks/titles can be used as any form of indicator in terms of power.

Drunk, also take note that Kage doesn't only speak of the Hokages, but also of every Kage in the other villages.

Ranks indicate a structure in a system, not a power scheme. I guess in a general sense you could make an average of all the power levels of the people in a given rank and call that "x-level", but that's still a very broad and general statement and isn't worth much.

The manga has never ever ever used the term "Jounin level" or "Kage level" to describe a singular person's power levels as far as I remember. The only instance I remember of claims close to this are regarding the Kaimon Gates(which said that the user gains strength equal to that of a Kage) and the description of Sandaime's fight with Shodaime & Nidaime(referred to as a Kage level battle).

[The_Drunk]

Well the reason I'm arguing with Drunk is because I disagree with the main topic of the thread i.e. that ranks/titles can be used as any form of indicator in terms of power.

Drunk, also take note that Kage doesn't only speak of the Hokages, but also of every Kage in the other villages.

Ranks indicate a structure in a system, not a power scheme. I guess in a general sense you could make an average of all the power levels of the people in a given rank and call that "x-level", but that's still a very broad and general statement and isn't worth much.

The manga has never ever ever used the term "Jounin level" or "Kage level" to describe a singular person's power levels as far as I remember. The only instance I remember of claims close to this are regarding the Kaimon Gates(which said that the user gains strength equal to that of a Kage) and the description of Sandaime's fight with Shodaime & Nidaime(referred to as a Kage level battle).

I understand what your saying. If a person is classified as being a Hokage then that is their rank and not their power level. But after reading the very first post that started this topic. The person clearly wants to use there rank to describe there power level. You may disagree with the use of his descriptions, but what other classification can you give them to describe their skill level and power levels. We can start another thread that words it differently... like
Super Saiyan 4
Super Saiyan 3
Super Saiyan 2
Super Saiyan 1
Super Saiyan
Saiyan
WOW I didn't realize how many different Super Saiyans their actually were. People don't want to use these terms because they refer to Dragon Ball... Naruto uses... Kage... Jounin... ect... or the criminal classification... as S rank and A rank... ect... So I'll let you come up with a power and skill classification and we can go ahead and use that... I don't care.. I'm just using what the person who started this thread with as an example... All I can tell you is that Tsunade is not in the same skill level as the previous Hokages. She might have the power, but not the skill or ability.
[hr]
If I miss read the meaning of the topic and he only wants to tell us there classifications.. well.. my bad... Naruto is a Chunnin and Tsunade is the Hokage. What's the point of telling you the obvious... just read the manga and it will tell you the current levels.

[Forever_Melody]

Actually Naruto is still a genin in technical standards lol :p

But yeah, the OP wants to use ranks as a classification of levels, something which I personally don't agree with as I've stated. IMO it's kind of hard to really classify strength in Naruto because there are so many factors to it.

One can argue that Deidara's long range ability was far beyond the level of other people's, while others can argue that Lee's taijutsu is far beyond others as well. Each shinobi has a specialty and it's hard to classify them all under one universal given standard :s I mean, what would we base our arguments from? Their ability to make things go boom?

In DBZ they had power meters as numerical numbers so at least that much could be deduced. And of course there was the "boom" factor in DBZ lol :p(whether or not you could blow up a planet or whatnot)

The simple argument that Chunin promotion isn't based on strength(ex: Shika was the only chosen to be Chunin at the exam, but he wasn't necessarily the strongest) or that the Kage title is based on the context of comparison(being the strongest in comparison to the village) should be examples of how power levels aren't directly linked to rank. Obviously, one would expect they would be to an extent, but there also comes other factors probably.

Remember, the ranks(not including Kage and ANBUs) describe and dictate what type of missions a ninja can undertake(ex: a Genin may only take up to a C rank mission under regular circumstances). The ranks are really more on the basis of the primary function of shinobis which was introduced early on in the manga i.e. their "salary" gained from missions. Therefore, one gains ranks in accordance with their skill for particular types of missions. Surely, higher ranked missions require more power, but there are other factors as well as I stated(experience, survival instincts, strategy, scouting, scavenging etc.)

[THM Nindo]

I understand what your saying. If a person is classified as being a Hokage then that is their rank and not their power level. But after reading the very first post that started this topic. The person clearly wants to use there rank to describe there power level.

At first, I created that topic so that all the off-topic discussion like "Naruto is Sannin-level" and "Oh, wow... now that he has Sage-Mode, Naruto is definitely Kage-level" won't get deleted, but instead be transferred here.

I tried to make a summary of the "levels" that can be used, but as Melody said, it's not that simple :p

So, I guess this thread as now two purposes :

- Discussing the "levels" in Naruto and how they work.
Ex: Kage level is dependant of the village.

- Discussing the "levels" of certain character.
Ex: Sakura should be Jonin, or at least Special Jonin (for her med-skills).

[SuperSaiyan4]

Okay. I've heard so many times about how people say that in the rescuing-gaara arc, since the fake itachi and kisame had 1/3 of the original's chakra, their strengths should have been 1/3 of their full strength...

I don't see it this way. If the chakra circulatory system work just like the vascular system in our own bodies, one's strength should be measured by one's physical strength and how much chakra can be distributed to different parts of the body in addition to how much chakra one can produce.

The blood in our system works by having the heart pump nutrients and oxygen to various parts of the body using arteries and capillaries. Nutrients and oxygen and other components dissolve through the capillaries to the cells; the larger the arteries and capillaries are, the more nutrients the cell can receive and that's how they function more efficiently.

Chakra should work the same way. Chakra is formed from merging spiritual and physical energy together, and are distributed to different parts of the body using the chakra circulatory system. From what I've read so far from the manga, chakra is used to enhance one's physical strength (in http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/36/14/ sasuke comments about the chakra in rock lee's arms, so i'm guessing chakra was used to enhance his muscle speed and strength), or be used as a weapon on its own when using jutsus.

What I'm trying to say anyways, is that, one's strength should be measured in terms of his muscle strength and the amount of chakra one can transport to the muscle within a given amount of time to maximize the muscle's functioning capacity. The bigger the capillaries and the surface area of the chakra circulatory system (the one surrounding the body part in question) are, the stronger one's attack should be, because that part of the body is able to absorb more chakra and more nutrients. The amount of chakra one can generate should only indicate the duration in which one can maintain that specific amount of muscle strength. The amount of chakra that is distributed throughout the body is limited by the chakra limiters and the surface area of the circulatory system.

This explanation can be used to explain the 8-celestial gate technique. By releasing these "limiters," cells are forcefully fed more chakra and are forced to function beyond the normal boundaries. Normally, the physical restraints set by the circulatory system and the limiters would prevent more than a certain amount of chakra from being absorbed by different body parts.

If you were to say that amount of chakra = amount of strength, then look at sakura and tsunade. Almost everyone can agree that tsunade has much more chakra than sakura, but the physical strength they exert using their chakra control is almost identical (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/170/17/ vs. http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/421/02/) Since the damage is done by accumulating as much chakra they can into their fist and releasing all at once, their physical strength does not seem to be connected to how much chakra they have, but rather to how much chakra they can transport to their hands.

So, what I'm saying is, with Kisame's example, his fake clone should have been as strong as the original one, but with smaller stamina.

[wildG]

itachi couldn't activate the MS cause he didn't have enough chakra... he said also that he couldn't use many strong techniques due to his lack of chakra...

[Liof]

They coudn't use their strongest techniques and full power...
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/260/17/

**part that matters**
kisame: So in proportion, our strength and jutsu we can use are limited.

******************

[SuperSaiyan4]

They coudn't use their strongest techniques and full power...
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/260/17/

**part that matters**
kisame: So in proportion, our strength and jutsu we can use are limited.

******************

which still supports my point that having more chakra simply increases one's stamina and room for more attacks.

The definition of strength that I challenged did not involve the variety of techniques one can use. I challenged the notion that people thought that the original kisame was 3 times stronger (like 3 times more muscle strength or something) than the fake clone he used against gai.

[Forever_Melody]

Arguably, the real Kisame and Itachi might have been stronger pure physically wise though considering the bodies they were using were not their own and perhaps not physically as well conditioned as fully trained S ranked missing-nin. Example, Kisame used one of Sasori's goons as his 30% clone and perhaps that goon's body wasn't as physically apt as Kisame's was. Therefore, it would not be dumb to assume that Kisame's clone might not be physically as strong as Kisame was. Same as saying Itachi's clone might have been slower than the actual Itachi if not by reaction, but simply because the body didn't have the muscle power to match Itachi's regular speed.

That's of course speaking of pure physical abilities. If we argue that Kisame and Itachi injected chakra through Pain's jutsu to enhance their hosts' physical abilities to a point where these abilities could match their own, then my point carries no valid argument obviously :s

And you do carry a valid argument however. If we speak of chakra enhanced speed/strength, then your point does hold since Kisame & Itachi could have well injected the same amount of chakra into their clones to enhance their physical attributes as they'd do in their regular bodies. I doubt enhancing their base physical attributes took more than 30% of their chakra anyways.

Say Kisame had 100 chakra points and he normally sues 10 to have super strength, he'd simply use 10 on his clone(or say 15 assuming the clone was physically weaker so Kisame would have to make it up with 15). Now, assuming the lesser and restricted amount of chakra they could use, perhaps Kisame & Itachi had to alter/lower the amount of chakra they'd pour to enhance their clones' physical attributes. Say Kisame decided to use 5 instead of 10 so he could have 20 chakra points for large jutsus such as Bakousouha. THEN you could argue that the clones weren't as strong and you could bring in Kisame's line about how their strength was limited by the limited amount of chakra they could use.

That's how I'd explain Kisame's line about strength anyways. It's not necessarily a limitation by the chakra levels, but one Kisame & Itachi chose because of the chakra levels perhaps.

[Atemu]

Well bigger chakra has its good side and bad side. we hear all the time some character complaining for not having enough chakra, and we have some people like naruto that could not use their chakra to its full. I think having more chakra is equal to being stronger since ninjas basically use chakra to enhance alll the fighting abalities.

[ophidial]

Arguably, the real Kisame and Itachi might have been stronger pure physically wise though considering the bodies they were using were not their own and perhaps not physically as well conditioned as fully trained S ranked missing-nin. Example, Kisame used one of Sasori's goons as his 30% clone and perhaps that goon's body wasn't as physically apt as Kisame's was. Therefore, it would not be dumb to assume that Kisame's clone might not be physically as strong as Kisame was. Same as saying Itachi's clone might have been slower than the actual Itachi if not by reaction, but simply because the body didn't have the muscle power to match Itachi's regular speed.

That's of course speaking of pure physical abilities. If we argue that Kisame and Itachi injected chakra through Pain's jutsu to enhance their hosts' physical abilities to a point where these abilities could match their own, then my point carries no valid argument obviously :s

And you do carry a valid argument however. If we speak of chakra enhanced speed/strength, then your point does hold since Kisame & Itachi could have well injected the same amount of chakra into their clones to enhance their physical attributes as they'd do in their regular bodies. I doubt enhancing their base physical attributes took more than 30% of their chakra anyways.

Say Kisame had 100 chakra points and he normally sues 10 to have super strength, he'd simply use 10 on his clone(or say 15 assuming the clone was physically weaker so Kisame would have to make it up with 15). Now, assuming the lesser and restricted amount of chakra they could use, perhaps Kisame & Itachi had to alter/lower the amount of chakra they'd pour to enhance their clones' physical attributes. Say Kisame decided to use 5 instead of 10 so he could have 20 chakra points for large jutsus such as Bakousouha. THEN you could argue that the clones weren't as strong and you could bring in Kisame's line about how their strength was limited by the limited amount of chakra they could use.

That's how I'd explain Kisame's line about strength anyways. It's not necessarily a limitation by the chakra levels, but one Kisame & Itachi chose because of the chakra levels perhaps.

Well in regards to the first point, they're supposed to be almost exact copies of the originals taking on physical characteristics and body structure. So imo the physical capabilities of the bodies weren't really hampered but the lack of chakra would affect certain aspect such as chakra enhanced speed and chakra enhanced punches etc..
Also in regards to pains comment that kisame was suited to this jutsu due to his large chakra pool, imo the strength of the real body wouldn't be that far off what we've already seen.

[Delbi]

Chakra can enhance your strength and speed by pushing it out of your limbs and what not.

However, in terms of combat, the more chakra you have, the better.

If Naruto didn't have all the chakra he has now, he'd been screwed because most of his jutsu use a lot of chakra, and his strategies make use of said jutsu. He'd have to change every his entire way of fighting if he didn't have a massive amount of chakra.

The clones of Itachi and Kisame likely were not physically as good as the orginals, I mean you can't replicate them exactly unless you cloned them, or used a Kage Bushin. Then again, Nagato can use any ninja technique, so its very likely that he did something like this.

Saying that, look at how they both were Killed, Kisame got smashed by a 6 Gates Gai, and Itachi got killed with a Kyuubified Odama Rasengan. Both of these attacks are strong enough to kill basically any opponent.

However, if it were the real Itachi or Kisame, it's very likely they would of never been in the situation were they could of been killed, and its very likely they could have killed their oppoents. Itachi has never fought seriously against an enemy, it's almost scary to think what he would be capable of if he was pissed off.

Kisame likewise, may have been able to kill Gai if he had his full arsenal and chakra available to him from the begining of the fight.

[SuperSaiyan4]

So my point being is that there isn't a simple algebraic equation saying that says the amount of chakra directly correlates one's strength. I'm just trying to challenge the point everyone makes that since kisame clone had 30 percent of the original's chakra, the real kisame is 3 times as strong as the fake kisame clone >.> I believe that the amount of chakra one has has a significant contribution to one's power level. I just think that there are many other factors to it.

[Raizen]

I agree with u saiyan, the 30% clone isn't 3x weaker than kisame. he is basically kisame but limited. His strength and skills didn't diminish, it was his stamina. HAving a big chakra pool means u can use more attack but does not equate to be much much stronger as some seem to believe. That is why I believe that kakashi can give healthy itachi a run for his money along with gai being able to beat kisame

[SuperSaiyan4]

I agree with u saiyan, the 30% clone isn't 3x weaker than kisame. he is basically kisame but limited. His strength and skills didn't diminish, it was his stamina. HAving a big chakra pool means u can use more attack but does not equate to be much much stronger as some seem to believe. That is why I believe that kakashi can give healthy itachi a run for his money along with gai being able to beat kisame

is that sarcasm that I detect? >.> Anyways, if it is, regardless of the fact that gai beat the fake kisame clone, I do believe that gai can't beat the real kisame since he probably has some gigantic jutsu similar to deidara's c4 bomb that requires his kind of chakra reserve. something for the readers to look forward to in the future?

[Raizen]

is that sarcasm that I detect? >.> Anyways, if it is, regardless of the fact that gai beat the fake kisame clone, I do believe that gai can't beat the real kisame since he probably has some gigantic jutsu similar to deidara's c4 bomb that requires his kind of chakra reserve. something for the readers to look forward to in the future?
No i truly agree with what u are saying to some extent. The clones of itachi and kisame was only limited in some of their techniques, but their ability and skills were intact. Kisame already has a huge chakra pool, so him at 30% probably still has a lot of chakra. Those attacks of his could probably some of his best

As for gai vs kisame. Gai obliterated kisame with 6 gates. but note he only had to open that much b/c he wanted to end it fast and save his group

[Forever_Melody]

Yeah the 30% thing only impacted the array of powers/jutsu they could use.

It's not as easy as saying "Kisame 100% is 3x stronger than the 30% clone". If you account for physical strength like you said, it's questionable that the real Kisame is any more physically stronger unless like I said, it took more than 30% of his chakra to enhance his strength(which I'd doubt).

If we talk of "stronger" overall, then it's also debatable as the clones only indicate what level of chakra was available to them. Itachi noted that he could not use MS during his fight due to the limitations of chakra(I mean, 3 MS jutsus wears him out and using 4 in one battle against Sasuke turned him completely blind so I'd say one MS jutsu alone can take maybe 15-20% of his chakra).

Let me elaborate...

Kisame says the clones' power and strength are limited due to the limited amount of chakra poured into the jutsu, which is true when we use "strength" and "power" as an overall term to describe a shinobi's fighting ability.

The overall potency of the clones was indeed reduced due to the limited amount of chakra at their disposal(and therefore their arsenal).

What is debatable IMO is whether or not the clones power itself is a dwindled version of the original's which is what IMO the OP is trying to debate.

For example, Itachi's Goukakyuu was noted to be the original so I'd say it's moot to say that the clone's jutsu were weaker than the original's. Likewise, Kisame won't shoot an ocean if the original shoots Bakousouha IMO. He'll shoot the same Bakoushouha jutsu we've seen. The only difference is that now:
- it would drain him less
- he'd be able to chain other, perhaps more costly, jutsus

The only argument which would hold true for the jutsus' strength would be if the jutsu's actual power was directly correlated with the amount of chakra pumped into it(some jutsus follow this correlation, others don't) and the manga does not show any evidence that neither Kisame nor Itachi held back the power of the jutsu they used when using the 30% clones.

[ninjabot]

Right. Kakashi managed to hold his own against a version of Itachi that couldn't sustain the use of multiple high cost jutsu or chakra enhanced abilities. Gai defeated a Kisame that was in the same boat, though less so since Kisame has a lot of chakra normally.

So yes, the clones were weaker in the sense that they couldn't last as long as the real thing, nor access their strongest attacks (or if they could access them, they would be dead after one use).

[kkck]

It all depends on the jutsu you use and your chakra control

If you have good chakra control, you can put more chakra into a jutsu and make it more powerful by using spatial or elemental recomposition. If sakura has more chakra and more chakra control, she could potentially increase the power of his punch for example.

Some jutsu you have would be either unusable or to much of a hazard for the user. For instance, MS uses around 25-30% of the users chakra (varies with the jutsu). If itachi or kakashi have one third of their chakra capacity, it is likely one MS ninjutsu would deplet them completely or even kill them.

All in all, just having more chakra wont make you stronger/faster/powerful. For you to actually become stronger you would have to actually train to use your new found chakra more efficiently and put more power into whatever jutsu you use. The same would go for speed. Also, I think it is fairly evident that if you are not at 100% of your capacity you won't be able to do things normally. Maybe kisame is not such a good example to show this(or who knows perhabs his jutsu indeed are 3 times bigger at 100%, guess we have to wait and see) but if you consider this for itachi, kakashi or sakura perhabs it makes more of a difference.

[fremeer]

lets say there are people with a weak heart, they have a slow circulation while others have a strong circulation due to a strong heart. This works with chakra as well, every1 has their own level dependent on birth or training. Just like some1 with alot of fast twitch muscles is a fast runner/jumper some1 with lots of chakra is naturally better at stuff.
So what if you have chakra, well a high chakra allows a higher tolerance for wastage so less perfection is required. Add to it the ability to perform greater jutsu's due to increase chakra stores. Finally it benefits basic stamina because chakra is used for faster movement, defense everything it allows you to keep going. Basically chakra is natural ability that you are born with, if you dont work on the technique though you can be beaten by a person with less chakra but greater technique.

[Delbi]

Yeah the 30% thing only impacted the array of powers/jutsu they could use.

It's not as easy as saying "Kisame 100% is 3x stronger than the 30% clone". If you account for physical strength like you said, it's questionable that the real Kisame is any more physically stronger unless like I said, it took more than 30% of his chakra to enhance his strength(which I'd doubt).

If we talk of "stronger" overall, then it's also debatable as the clones only indicate what level of chakra was available to them. Itachi noted that he could not use MS during his fight due to the limitations of chakra(I mean, 3 MS jutsus wears him out and using 4 in one battle against Sasuke turned him completely blind so I'd say one MS jutsu alone can take maybe 15-20% of his chakra).

Let me elaborate...

Kisame says the clones' power and strength are limited due to the limited amount of chakra poured into the jutsu, which is true when we use "strength" and "power" as an overall term to describe a shinobi's fighting ability.

The overall potency of the clones was indeed reduced due to the limited amount of chakra at their disposal(and therefore their arsenal).

What is debatable IMO is whether or not the clones power itself is a dwindled version of the original's which is what IMO the OP is trying to debate.

For example, Itachi's Goukakyuu was noted to be the original so I'd say it's moot to say that the clone's jutsu were weaker than the original's. Likewise, Kisame won't shoot an ocean if the original shoots Bakousouha IMO. He'll shoot the same Bakoushouha jutsu we've seen. The only difference is that now:
- it would drain him less
- he'd be able to chain other, perhaps more costly, jutsus

The only argument which would hold true for the jutsus' strength would be if the jutsu's actual power was directly correlated with the amount of chakra pumped into it(some jutsus follow this correlation, others don't) and the manga does not show any evidence that neither Kisame nor Itachi held back the power of the jutsu they used when using the 30% clones.

Well let's think of this for a second. Itachi and Kisame gave 30% of their molded chakra to the clones, and that's all the clones had.

What makes chakra though? Spiritual Energy + Physical Energy.

The clones of these two S-Ranked ninja couldn't produce any chakra of their own at all, because if I remeber correctly, they died when the Pain used the jutsu on them.

So, the clones have a limited amount of chakra, what does this do?

Aside from limiting what jutsu they can use, it also alters the fighting style of the clones.

For example, Itachi couldn't use his MS. Shit, there goes a good chunk of his arsenal.

We don't know the full extent of Kisame abilities, but I'm willing to bet at 100% he has some kind of, "Blow the fuck out of half the world jutsu" that he can use with that huge chakra supply he has. Saying that, at 30% chakra, he is limited to what he can and can not do. Of all the characters in the manga, I really can't wait to see what Kisame can do, I think he's got some spectacular stuff that Kishi has been waiting to unleash on some poor ninja (Probably Gai).

Going back to what makes chakra, spiritual + physical energy.

The physical energy of these bodies, although exact replica's, is not the same as the real Itachi and Kisame.

Point being, under the guise of these replica's, a much weaker body than Itachi and Kisame is present. We have to ask ourselves, does the power it takes to dispel the jutsu and kill/hurt the clones, need to be greater to kill the real bodies?

I say this ^^^, full well ackwoledging the fact that Kisame got killed by a 6 Gate powered Gai, and Itachi by a Odama Rasengan. Those two attacks could likely kill anyone in the manga. BUT, Itachi showed us, even while on his death bed he can take one hell of a beating, and Kisame to me anyway, seems to be a guy who can take ass beating after ass beating and still kill you.

Also, lets think of this. The two clones were fueled purley by chakra. For their bodies to work and function, the chakra needs to be broken back down into Physical Energy to power them. At the base of these clones are dead bodies, so they can't exert any force of their own without using up chakra.

In the instance above, Kisame and Itachi's clones could never be as fast and strong as the real Kisame and Itachi could because they only have a fixed amount of Physical Energy to work with. For arguments sake, Kisame could be a hell of a lot stronger using his own physical energy and force rather than the limited supply his clone had.

Anyway, going back to the point of this thread. The more chakra you have, the better. If someone like Kakashi had Naruto's chakra supply, he'd be damn near unstoppable, same thing goes for Itachi.

Hiruzen Sarturobi was hailed as the "Strongest Hokage ever". A large reason for that, to my understanding would not only be because of his intelligence and ability, but the large amount of stamina and chakra he supposedly possessed that powered his abilities. We saw in his old age how diminished his skills were because of lack of chakra.

So at the end of the day, more chakra is always better. Although, apprently the more chakra you have, the harder it is to control. But Sarturobi showed us, even if you have a lot of chakra, you can control it greatly, same goes for Jiraiya and to an extent Kisame.

[Forever_Melody]

Of course more chakra is better, I don't think anyone argues that. Nor do I think anyone argues that the real Itachi & Kisame are stronger than their 305 clones. What we're arguing is the simple statement that they are 3x stronger simply because they had 1/3 of their chakra levels.

The OP also argues the actual strength of what the clones showed during their fights.

I mean, Itachi's Goukakyuu when fighting Sasuke didn't seem any different than his 30% clone's and Kisame's Bakousouha was not commented on being weaker than his actual Bakousouha could be.

[Gecko Moria]

Of course more chakra is better, I don't think anyone argues that. Nor do I think anyone argues that the real Itachi & Kisame are stronger than their 305 clones. What we're arguing is the simple statement that they are 3x stronger simply because they had 1/3 of their chakra levels.

The OP also argues the actual strength of what the clones showed during their fights.

I mean, Itachi's Goukakyuu when fighting Sasuke didn't seem any different than his 30% clone's and Kisame's Bakousouha was not commented on being weaker than his actual Bakousouha could be.

More chakra is indeed better. More chakra means you are able to unleash a greater number of attacks (which sort of makes you stronger in battle). The more chakra you put into an attack the stronger it should be. And if you completely run out of chakra I think you'd have to rely on melee combat, which isn't that big of a deal for some people e.g. Rock Lee. But even Lee puts chakra into his punches/kicks to make them more powerful. But having more chakra does not necessarily make you stronger. It's how you use it that's important. An idiot with heaps of chakra would still epically lose to an experienced fighter with no chakra.

[THM Nindo]

More chakra is indeed better. More chakra means you are able to unleash a greater number of attacks (which sort of makes you stronger in battle). The more chakra you put into an attack the stronger it should be. And if you completely run out of chakra I think you'd have to rely on melee combat, which isn't that big of a deal for some people e.g. Rock Lee. But even Lee puts chakra into his punches/kicks to make them more powerful. But having more chakra does not necessarily make you stronger. It's how you use it that's important. An idiot with heaps of chakra would still epically lose to an experienced fighter with no chakra.

Having more chakra is better for sure.
But having more chakra than your opponent is not a guarantee win.

For example, Naruto always had more chakra than Kakashi, but Kakashi always had been stronger (except now that he has Sage-Mode) than Naruto and could have wipe his ass without too much effort.

Chakra is really usefull as you can use more jutsu (look at Kakashi, after a Electrical Clone, 2 or 3 chidori and a dog wall, he's already out of option), but this is definitely not the most important asset in a ninja fight.

[Forever_Melody]

I don't think it simply comes to "more chakra=stronger jutsus". It requires the proper control. If you inject too much chakra to the point where you cannot control it, you're no better since the jutsu won't perform properly. Therefore, the strength of the jutsu is proportional to both the control and the amount of chakra and not all jutsus are necessarily rely on the amount of chakra poured into them. For example, pumping more chakra into "Henge" does not make you transform "more" last I checked O_o

Also, bring this back to context of the clones, neither Itachi nor Kisame stated the jutsu they used were toned down versions. Actually, Kakashi commented on Itachi's Goukakyuu was the real one so it must have been of a similar magnitude.

[~Joshua~]

I don't think it simply comes to "more chakra=stronger jutsus". It requires the proper control. If you inject too much chakra to the point where you cannot control it, you're no better since the jutsu won't perform properly. Therefore, the strength of the jutsu is proportional to both the control and the amount of chakra and not all jutsus are necessarily rely on the amount of chakra poured into them. For example, pumping more chakra into "Henge" does not make you transform "more" last I checked O_o

Also, bring this back to context of the clones, neither Itachi nor Kisame stated the jutsu they used were toned down versions. Actually, Kakashi commented on Itachi's Goukakyuu was the real one so it must have been of a similar magnitude.

Fireball jutsu doesn't require a grand amount of chakra to be performed. Kakashi stated it was the real thing because.....well, it was the real thing. Itachi was controlling the movements of Yuura and his chakra control. The jutsu just didn't let Itachi fight in full.

[zerocooldx]

"An expert with a stone can easily beat a novice with a sword" Meaning just because someone has a certain skill or jutsu doesn't mean they are stronger. Knowing when and what type of jutsu to use is what wins or losses battles. Speed always beats power, having a lot of chakra and powerfull jutsu is nothing if you can't hit someone. Yondaime best represents everything i just said, he killed people with just speed and the normal Rasengan. And someone like that was seen as the most powerfull shinobi in Konoha's history, if not the entire Shinobi world.

[Forever_Melody]

Fireball jutsu doesn't require a grand amount of chakra to be performed. Kakashi stated it was the real thing because.....well, it was the real thing. Itachi was controlling the movements of Yuura and his chakra control. The jutsu just didn't let Itachi fight in full.
Well yes, the larger cannons of Itachi and Kisame's jutsus were unavailable to them due to higher chakra cost.

However, saying that whatever Itachi & Kisame's clones showed us would be 3 more powerful because they'd have 3x more chakra is flawed. The Goukakyuu example proves this. Itachi's real Goukakyuu should theoretically be as strong as the one his clone showed and Kisame's Bakousouha should be as strong as the one his clone showed. Nothing really proves nor disproves that the actual magnitude of their jutsu would be greater. The only thing hinted is that they were restricted in what jutsu they could use as clones because they had less chakra(ex: Itachi couldn't use MS).

The difference will lie in what other jutsu they can use since they can now use more draining powers.

I'm not arguing that Itachi & Kisame's clones are as powerful as itachi and Kisame -_-; I'm arguing that the statement that Itachi and Kisame being 3x as strong as their clones is broad, vague and generally unfounded.

[zerocooldx]

Those clones that Kisame and Itachi used, which was a combo jutsu along w/ Pain, allowed that two "clones" to have 30% of the real Itachi's and Kisame's power. The jutsu the clones used could easily be just as powerfull as if Itachi and Kisame used them. The only difference would be that the clones would loose a lot more of their chakra than Itachi and Kisame would. That statement is only valid as along as the jutsu that the clone Itachi and Kisame used didn't take up more than 30% of their chakra. But i haven't seen a single jutsu in the series that even remotely comes to taking up that much chakra.

[kkck]

Those clones that Kisame and Itachi used, which was a combo jutsu along w/ Pain, allowed that two "clones" to have 30% of the real Itachi's and Kisame's power. The jutsu the clones used could easily be just as powerfull as if Itachi and Kisame used them. The only difference would be that the clones would loose a lot more of their chakra than Itachi and Kisame would. That statement is only valid as along as the jutsu that the clone Itachi and Kisame used didn't take up more than 30% of their chakra. But i haven't seen a single jutsu in the series that even remotely comes to taking up that much chakra.

How about any MS jutsu(3 took out kakashi, itachi used 4 in total) and FRS(two completely drains HM).

[Delbi]

How about any MS jutsu(3 took out kakashi, itachi used 4 in total) and FRS(two completely drains HM).

Yea, the strongest jutsu in the manga seem to take out at least 25% of the users chakra, if not kill them such as the Death God.

Kisame, I'm willing to be has some kind of massive ninjutsu that requires a lot of his chakra. He can probably, in my estimation, perform a technique that seems impossible because of the massive amount of chakra that should be required to use it. May be speculation, but it would make sense since each character seems to have a trump card jutsu, and Kisame's would most likely make use of his very large chakra supply.

[zerocooldx]

How about any MS jutsu(3 took out kakashi, itachi used 4 in total) and FRS(two completely drains HM).

The Mangekyou Sharingan jutsu do take up a lot of chakra. But people seem to forget that just using the Sharingan as well as the Mangekyou Sharingan requires chakra as well. And even so against Sasuke Itachi used enough chakra for all threre jutsu as well as both stages of the Sharingan, all whlle he was slowly dying.

[patedecarne]

"A man who fights with one sword can outstand a man who fights with two, providing he knows how to use it properly"

Indeed, having more chakra has advantages, of course, like the stamina and the power, but a skilled man in Naruto can finish a fight in just a matter of seconds, when previously planned. Not always the plan will go smoothly, but if you have, at least some ideas to make through the battle, like how overcome the chakra supply, you'll be on par with his enemy.

Let's take Kisame, for example, with his monstruous chakra pool: Hipotetically speaking,if you can overcome Samehada, he won't have any weapons to fight against, thus the battle will be a bit more easier.

Of course, this is just an example and shouldn't be used for any purposes, it's just to show that with some strategy, you can win :)

[jodi]

Zabuza probably had more chakra than Kakashi
He didn't appear to be exhausted with the fight

I guess that only in part 1 people went out of chakra, now only Kakashi had it and itachixsasuke, but I don't remember it happening in other fights

[XMINATOX]

id say chakra effects stamina more than anything else the more you have the longer you can go before being burnt out.

[zerocooldx]

id say chakra effects stamina more than anything else the more you have the longer you can go before being burnt out.

I agree, but if the chakra required to perform most of your jutsu is proportional to your high chakra level then it evens itself out.

[XMINATOX]

yeah more chakra means either more jutsu spam(# of times you can perform it), or with control more powerful jutsu(intensity of the jutsu)and i bet lots of jutsu cant be used properly without enough. like a water jutsu coming out as a squirt or a torrent. more chakra invested means a more effective jutsu. shadowclone is a perfect example. people died making more than a few and naruto can make thousands. unless he got a kekkai genkai from kushina then it isnt the best example.

[The Flash]

Would you agree, if you can do more powerful jutsu's -- would that make you stronger?

Top right frame (http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-092/page014.html)

--When one has a large amount of chakra, and is able to use it at its highest capacity. You can do all sort of monstrous jutsu.--

Summoning jutsu is an example of one.

[zerocooldx]

Would you agree, if you can do more powerful jutsu's -- would that make you stronger?

Top right frame (http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-092/page014.html)

--When one has a large amount of chakra, and is able to use it at its highest capacity. You can do all sort of monstrous jutsu.--

Summoning jutsu is an example of one.

Well lets see, if someone possesed a jutsu that could do damage equal to that of Dediara's Big Bang just, would that individual be a stronger shinobi then a person who could use Madara's or Minaro's Time/Space jutsu?

[XMINATOX]

Well lets see, if someone possesed a jutsu that could do damage equal to that of Dediara's Big Bang just, would that individual be a stronger shinobi then a person who could use Madara's or Minaro's Time/Space jutsu?

no your comparing apples and oranges. besides space time ninjutsu would be more powerful since it makes deidara useless in that case. its pretty obvious with more chakra and appropriate control you can make it more powerful of a jutsu. however intelligence and intuition with the right skill set can balance out against more chakra with shika being aperfect example. hell with more chakra his jutsu becomes more effective too. there are exceptions to the control aspect tho. out of control kyubi naruto overwhelm everyone by the amount of chakra,and hes amindless beast. so the more chakra you have the greater your potential to be more powerful/effective, depending on the jutsu. body transfer or hiraishin arent affected cept you can use it more.

[zerocooldx]

no your comparing apples and oranges. besides space time ninjutsu would be more powerful since it makes deidara useless in that case. its pretty obvious with more chakra and appropriate control you can make it more powerful of a jutsu. however intelligence and intuition with the right skill set can balance out against more chakra with shika being aperfect example. hell with more chakra his jutsu becomes more effective too. there are exceptions to the control aspect tho. out of control kyubi naruto overwhelm everyone by the amount of chakra,and hes amindless beast. so the more chakra you have the greater your potential to be more powerful/effective, depending on the jutsu. body transfer or hiraishin arent affected cept you can use it more.

Can't be apples and oranges, because we are both talking about chakra. Apples and oranges would be if i was talking about pure speed, based off of taijutsu and then comparing that to chakra. Anyways what i'm implying is that it's all about effectiveness and efficiency, not chakra amount or jutsu damage.

[firework]

lol i give up. i was using gaara as an example, my arguement is you cant really use the Village titles as a true power ranking system. because gaara is a badass, but obviously not as powerfull as other kages from other villages,

and what are you basing this on? we have never ever seen a real kage fight from any of villages except sound and konoha.

anyway, back on topic...

-shikamaru- high special jounin in team attacks and strategy
-shino- low jounin for intelligence and ninjutsu tech
-sakura- mid special jounin for healing
-Rock Lee and Chouji- mid special jounin for raw power
-Kiba- mid special jounin for tracking
-Kakashi/ Gai/ Yamato- high kage for Kakashi and low kage for the other two (Gai for Kage power and Yamato for kage ability)

btw, i think jinchuuriki gaara is kage level. hes practically untouchable and it he would give alot of jounins trouble

[M3J]

I don't think there is Sannin level rank. O_o Only one that I've heard of to be called that was Kakashi's father.

[Forever_Melody]

Sannin is a title, not a rank. Well actually, Kage is a title as well since it's more of a comparative term than anything else.

[M3J]

1. Academy Student
This is for the ninjas that aren't even worthy of being called Ninja.

2. Genin
This is for the beginning Ninja, or ninjas that can't possibly lead a team (a requirement for the next level.)

3. Chunnin
This is for the average Ninja, who have a good knowledge in jutsu and his able to make decision and lead a team.

4. Special Jounin
This is for those jounin that are specialist in one domain (ex: Ambus are expert in stealth and assassination, Ibiki is expert in interrogation, Ebisu is an exceptionnal teacher,etc).
They might not be full-fledge Jounin, but they're good enough in one domain to have the "Jounin" rank.

5. Jounin
This is for the elite Ninja, who have shown skills in jutsu and are among the strongest of the village.

6. Sannin-level
This is for those who have skills that could compare to the three Sannins (Jiraiya, Tsunade and Orochimaru).

7. Kage-level
This is for those that are worthy of being called "Kage", the strongest


was talking about that though, people treat it as a level. :S Kage is kinda level though, it can be considered both.

[Forever_Melody]

Kage isn't a level in the sense that it's a singular rank given to an individual based on a comparative analysis. A Kage is chosen based on the rest of the village. The most fit for Kage is usually the strongest, smartest, most charismatic shinobi amongst the rest of the shinobi in a village. Unlike the other ranks which have specific requirements to achieve(and an exam), the Kage position does not really have any such specific requirements other than the comparative ones I stated.

Really, the candidates for Kage are chosen on a comparative basis based on the previous Kage's(and the Elders) judgment.

[M3J]

It's similar with genin/chuunin too. They make judgment as to whether the genin is fit to be chuunin based on the exams. Even the winners aren't guaranteed to be promoted, even losers have a chance of becoming chuunin as long as they show they have the capability of leading and etc. Kage may be comparative, but it's also somewhat of a level, those with kage-level strength are very powerful and can do missions usually only kages can do, I think.

[Forever_Melody]

Yeah lots of the Naruto ranks are somewhat comparative, hence why I abhor calling them "levels". They really are based on subjective judgment.

There isn't any set quantitative method nor value that says "you must be THIS strong/fast/smart/agile to be Kage/Jounin/Chunnin" hence why I dislike using them as power levels.

They are titles if not ranks, but are not really correlative in many sense except for what the ranks imply.

[Pyrogunz]

I think this thread would be better if someone made a subjective list of every Naruto character ranked from top to bottom according to skill, or have certain better defined "skill brackets" for each type of character. The Jounin/Special Jounin etc. brackets that are used in this thread I don't really like.
[hr]

without a bijuu, yes. with biju, no. he was genin and was already near jounin level. he also killed kimimaro and kabuto said that there is no chance that he would die out there.

and LOL at your sig jody. http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff150/Unlimited_Blade_Works/BakiBg.png

I don't want to discredit Gaara for killing Kimimaro, but let me just point out that Kimimaro was dying when Gaara was fighting him, and Kimimaro actually managed to get out of Gaara's binding technique and be one stroke away from killing him (Gaara was out of chakra), when he died. Therefore, I think the fight was intended to be slightly inconclusive as to who would have been in the end purely "stronger". Fact was Kimimaro was dying.

[THM Nindo]

Seems like a new "title" just appeared in the Discussion forum.

Beware the "Sage" title.

So, where is this "Sage" title?
Above Special Jonin, above Jonin, above Sannin?!

Seriously, I understand that people want to refer to Naruto as "Sage" instead of as a "Genin", but the fact is : Naruto is a Genin.

That means that, he can't be in charge of a team, and he can't vote for the Hokage.

The title Sage do have some prestige, but it doesn't give him any privilege.

[-Ren Boy-]

sage is just like a title

genin is a rank, and even if naruto's power is comparable to a jounin or highier he is a genin legally lol

[Zero Sama]

maybe they will make him "honor jounin" soon!:p

[niblack89]

Naruto is the strongest Genin and Kohanamaru is the second he did what dozens of jounin couldn't with a jutsu that is only made for genuses all he needs is Ema and we have the 8th hokage. but I would like to see the chunin exames again Naruto vs Kohanamaru the second round so they both can make it.

[Downforyou]

Yeah, a higher chakra doesn't necessarily make you stronger. Chakra to me is stamina essentially-it will allow more usage of techniques, and usage of stronger techniques. The strength would be more akin to smarts-how you ultilize your chakra.

[Aikidoka]

I always thought that it was a given, that chakra =/= strength...

[-Ren Boy-]

it depends how you use the chakra

it doesn't make you stronger but gives the person more of a chance of winning the fight

[sindergi]

I always thought that it was a given, that chakra =/= strength...

Than Naruto should be one of the strongest Ninjas from the beginning because he has a lot of chakra.
Ok the comparison is weak but imagine you have a car with 75ps and you drive a quarter-miles-race against a 500ps strong ferrari.....if the driver of the ferrari didnt drive a straight line or just make a burnout you will win with your 75ps-car.

[-Ren Boy-]

Its all about using the chakra wisely then you can become a great ninja

[Weapon_X]

I always thought that it was a given, that chakra =/= strength...

Nope, I'll give you an example.

1. A has low chakra but can use Madara's phasing technique only that technique.
2. B has highest chakra.

B summons 10000000 KB, 10000000 FRS , what good is all of this if it can't hit A? ;)
[hr]

Its all about using the chakra wisely then you can become a great ninja

Agreed.

[jdw]

Nope, I'll give you an example.

1. A has low chakra but can use Madara's phasing technique only that technique.
2. B has highest chakra.

B summons 10000000 KB, 10000000 FRS , what good is all of this if it can't hit A? ;)
<hr noshade size="1">


Agreed.

Wait until he runs out of chakra and then beat his ass :fan

btw, you actually agree with Aikidoka. Just saying is all...

[-Ren Boy-]

He should have finished off the statement init jdw?

It does not make you stronger(unless you are like Tsunade and use chakra to make her literally stronger) but it widens the range of beastly jutsus others can use.

[jdw]

He should have finished off the statement init jdw?

It does not make you stronger(unless you are like Tsunade and use chakra to make her literally stronger) but it widens the range of beastly jutsus others can use.

I agree that more chakra doesn't make you stronger. I was just messing around. It can be a great advantage but it does not make one stronger.

[-Ren Boy-]

It is one feat a ninja would die for. Too bad sasuke lost the cursed seal, now he has lost like 3 usages of chidori' lol :p

[Weapon_X]

Wait until he runs out of chakra and then beat his ass :fan

btw, you actually agree with Aikidoka. Just saying is all...

Huh? How do I agree with Aikidoka? :blink

Actually, I can't be bothered to argue. We disagree on everything LOL 2 opposite people ;)

[jdw]

Huh? How do I agree with Aikidoka? :blink

Actually, I can't be bothered to argue. We disagree on everything LOL 2 opposite people ;)

You think that chakra does not mean one is stronger, I think from your statement


I always thought that it was a given, that chakra =/= strength...

Chakra =/= strength, means chakra != strength, means chakra does not equal strength, which means that chakra does not make one stronger :)

[M3J]

Chakra can make you last longer though. Not sure sexwise though. <_<
But having more chakra doesn't really make you stronger, I think it just makes your repertoire more varied as well as last longer. Kakashi would be stronger than Naruto despite the great chakra difference because Kakashi's smarter and better at taijutsu, genjutsu, and ninjutsu. Of course, I'm basing that on what NaruSaku said at the beginning of Part II. Sure, Naruto can last longer and spam moves, but Kakashi can get him with a good attack using least amount of chakra by outsmarting him.
Chakra makes a ninja as strong as the ninja himself.

[zenozatch]

Yeah lots of the Naruto ranks are somewhat comparative, hence why I abhor calling them "levels". They really are based on subjective judgment.

There isn't any set quantitative method nor value that says "you must be THIS strong/fast/smart/agile to be Kage/Jounin/Chunnin" hence why I dislike using them as power levels.

They are titles if not ranks, but are not really correlative in many sense except for what the ranks imply.

I disagree. Sure we do not have numerical information detailing what is necessary, but who does. Even in sports, such as Basketball although there is no set PPG or RPG you are supposed to have to differientate you from a JV Team or Varsity Team there are obvious/noticeable measures for your rank.

Chuunin do not obtain rank by mistake, nor do Jounin.

Now, Chouji & his father are Akimichi's, they are fatter and heavier than most shinobi. Obviously, this slows them down in comparison to any shinobi. Now, look at Chouji and his father's abilities during the Hidan & Kakazu (Chouji) & the Pein Arc (his father). Chouji is a Chuunin, his agility is obviously faster, he is stronger, he is smarter & more aware all of this is fact. Just look at the change in Stats from DB2 to DB3. This shows that there is a marginal difference to go to the next level.

Lets even look at Neji, but lets compare him to Kakashi. Neji is now a Jounin, so lets compare his stats to who I believe the most prolific and detailed Jounin of the series. By DB3 Kakashi has been a Jounin for 17 Years & Neji has only been a Jounin for one. Look at the growth from Neji's Genin/Chuunin times to Jounin. He is stronger and more versed in Ninjutsu and Taijutsu, therefore he has increased his intelligence and knowledge based on jutsu. He has increased his speed and gained more stamina. His Taijutsu & Speed stat has almost maxed. Look at how he obviously excels & exceed in those areas, hell matching Kakashi. This proves Neji to convey near mastery in his first year almost as a Jounin.

Look at Kakashi's DB1 stats and compare then to Neji's DB3 stats. Neji already exceeds a 13 year Jounin in Speed, Taijutsu, and has a well established intelligence already.

So by looking at stats and experience you can see that there is a certain mark or standard necessary to meet or obtain for each level; making it quite quantitative.Therefore, Ranks such as Chuunin and Jounin are quite accurate and I feel can be used as indicators of Power Level.

[Yondaime Uzumaki]

Seems like a new "title" just appeared in the Discussion forum.

Beware the "Sage" title.

So, where is this "Sage" title?
Above Special Jonin, above Jonin, above Sannin?!

Seriously, I understand that people want to refer to Naruto as "Sage" instead of as a "Genin", but the fact is : Naruto is a Genin.

That means that, he can't be in charge of a team, and he can't vote for the Hokage.

The title Sage do have some prestige, but it doesn't give him any privilege.

I wouldn't say that. The way Shikamaru's father spoke of the Sage techniques suggested differently. Naruto was trusted with the entire villages safety and qith the task of defeating the same person that had just destroyed the village. Being that strong automatically gives you special privileges, and a title as respect as a "Sage" just adds to that. Naruto pretty much gave the order to everyone in the village not to interfere. No other genin could do that, and mastering the Sage Arts was the only reason Naruto was able to do it. Naruto literally lead a village by telling them to stay back, why wouldn't he be able to lead a team? It's obvious that rank has little to nothing to with Naruto.

[M3J]

I wouldn't say that. The way Shikamaru's father spoke of the Sage techniques suggested differently. Naruto was trusted with the entire villages safety and qith the task of defeating the same person that had just destroyed the village. Being that strong automatically gives you special privileges, and a title as respect as a "Sage" just adds to that. Naruto pretty much gave the order to everyone in the village not to interfere. No other genin could do that, and mastering the Sage Arts was the only reason Naruto was able to do it. Naruto literally lead a village by telling them to stay back, why wouldn't he be able to lead a team? It's obvious that rank has little to nothing to with Naruto.

The way Shikamaru's father spoke was knowledge about the power of Sage Mode. Because Naruto knew Sage Mode, which no one else did, he and others knew that Naruto was the only one who had a chance at beating Pain. No one interfered because they'd be a liability to Naruto, as Naruto and Shikaku have said. I don't think anyone's called him "sage" though, not yet anyway. He's gotten special privileges because he's saved the village, otherwise he might have been feared: Kyuubi kid being powerful. No other genin could give the order because they weren't strong enough or haven't proven themselves the way Naruto did. Plus, Naruto would get distracted if someone interfered, whereas another genin would need help. He didn't literally lead the village. All he did was tell them to stay back, which they complied with because they knew that they had no chance of beating Pain and interfering would hurt Naruto more than help him.
Rank does mean a lot here. Naruto's just an exception because of Tsunade, I guess, and/or Kakashi. It's Tsunade's trust in him that's allowed Naruto to do things no genins could do, and that's partly because he has had help from others. But rank doesn't tell the power of an individual.
It's not Naruto knowing Sage Mode that made others listen to him, it's the fact that they knew or thought he was the only one capable of taking down Pain and interfering would take away or reduce that capability that made them listen to him. If an enemy has taken out at least two of the strongest jounins, destroyed a village, would you be willing to take him on? Especially when there's a savior that's proven to be strong enough, beating Neji, Gaara, saving Gaara, etc? Would you interfere and make it harder for the savior to fight when one mistake on your side could result in loss or death of the one that has the most probability of taking out the enemy?

Soz for any mistakes btw, t'is late and I'm sleepy.

[DEATHBOTT]

characters like raido, genma, aoba and anko all seem like jounin level to me but im pretty sure they are all special jounin. genma fought baki (a jounin) and raido and genam also fought the sound four when they were tired from a mission. raido and aoba fought with kakuzu. ibiki and ebisu for me count as jounin level as with anbu officers, i think people just have a high opion of jounin because at the start of the manga kishi hyped them (along with alot of other things) and the jounin the manga focuses on are some of the strongest in the world ie Kakashi and guy.

[hitokugutsu]

Ninja levels mean SHIT. Databook stats mean SHIT.
The perfect example is Orochimaru. According to DB3 he has stats equal to Itachi and Jiraiya (35.5). Yet Itachi was able to humiliate him in mere seconds

[M3J]

But Orochimaru and Itachi didn't really fight, Oro just talked while Itachi stabbed him and had him sealed.

[hitokugutsu]

But Orochimaru and Itachi didn't really fight, Oro just talked while Itachi stabbed him and had him sealed.

I'm talking about the previous encounter when Itachi joined Akatsuki. Orochimaru tried to steal his body and got his hand sliced off. Although we didn't see the full battle and Orochimaru was appereantly able to escape.

But if you remember during Sasuke vs Itachi when Sasuke was using Orochimaru's oral rebirth Itachi recognised the technique. Also when Oro appeared during the fight using his Hydra techinique Itachi also recognised the jutsu.
This means Orochimaru vs Itachi (during Akatsuki) was probably an all out battle for Orochimaru since he used his oral rebirth and his 8-headed jutsu which Itachi was able to recognise later on (even when he was blind !!! :p).

[M3J]

Itachi did genjutsu, but I don't think Orochimaru was going all out yet.
And I think anyone would know about Orochimaru's two apparently famously known techniques. I think he used the hydra technique when Konoha was attacked. I'm not sure what you mean by oral rebirth though.

[niblack89]

Yeah lots of the Naruto ranks are somewhat comparative, hence why I abhor calling them "levels". They really are based on subjective judgment.

There isn't any set quantitative method nor value that says "you must be THIS strong/fast/smart/agile to be Kage/Jounin/Chunnin" hence why I dislike using them as power levels.

They are titles if not ranks, but are not really correlative in many sense except for what the ranks imply.

I get what You mean cause hell Sakura could (just using as an example no facts behind it and definitely not true) whip the rock kage's ass but yet he is kage. there should also be a sort of guide line also like kakashi isn't you ordinary Jounin but could never win a fight with Jaryia(miss spelled) but could be considered to be Hokage. It should be ranked with skill and power too cause there is also the element advantage also.


Itachi did genjutsu, but I don't think Orochimaru was going all out yet.
And I think anyone would know about Orochimaru's two apparently famously known techniques. I think he used the hydra technique when Konoha was attacked. I'm not sure what you mean by oral rebirth though.

ora rebirth is this http:
//www.onemanga.com/Naruto/294/08/ (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/294/08/)

When you can jump out your body after it gets damaged like a missing arm or you get burned by Amaterasu. The only thing is it consumes a great deal of chakra and if keep doing it you can wear out you body

[misterchaos]

yeah,naruto was a academy student and beat a jounin with harem no jutsu

[misterchaos]

i think it helps :D

[Arctigor]

I think that having more chakra only increases the survival rate of a shinobi in a mission or a battle, 'cuz a shinobi with almost 0 chakra can't counterattack another's ninjutsu. But a shinobi's intelligence in using a kawarimi and a few kunai can beat another who uses powerful techs without thinking. Look at kakashi for example. He rarly uses ninjutsu to attack somebody. He uses ninjutsu for defence and taijutsu for attack, 'cuz he doesn't have a lot of chakra like naruto or kisame.

So a shinobi is powerful because he has intelligence and wisdom not because he has a lot of chakra.

[Raizen]

Skill and chakra does not go hand in hand.
Chakra just gives you the ability to be more resistant and give u the ability to use stronger jutsus. But if u fight someone who's chakra aren't close but their skills are much better, u are screwed

[ameya730]

having more chakra is more important not because it helps you to survive longer but it helps you to use better jutsu's

like kakashi told naruto that even if he was able to make a rasengan he could not use it cause he did not have enough chakra as compared to naruto

most jounin's are skilled people and when they reach that level the battle is normally determined by who has the better jutsu and stamina both of which are related to more chakra

[juUnior]

I agree with the statments in the first post. I don't even think it should be questionable. Just add:

Chakra can make you last longer though.
That and we have pretty nice analysis ^^ <because somewhat the first post was addressed to those who think that Itachi & Kisame clones back then were "weaker" due to lack of chakra.. ambiguity? Perhaps, they were "weaker" in a sense, but all their skills, taijutsu cosidering the Pain's technique feature> should be the same as original, just smaller chakra capacity. That's all there is to it>

[segua]

I agree that more chakra doesn't make you stronger. I was just messing around. It can be a great advantage but it does not make one stronger.

The more chakra a person has does make a person stronger. I'm not talking in small increments but in large increments like Kyuubi chakra with Naruto, the cursed seal, Lotus and other examples.

Though that doesn't mean that having more chakra increases a person's or some thing's caliber. Take for example the Sanbi that Madara and Deidara captured. It had lots of chakra but because it had the mind of a beast, its' battle caliber was low. Now if it was housed in a human vessel, like the Ichibi and Gaara, the bijuu's own battle prowess would've increased substantially.

It could also be said that efficiency comes into play also. From the beginning of Naruto, it could be said that an improperly trained ninja does not efficiently uses his chakra thus wasting it.

Through rigorous training, a person with lots of chakra becomes devastating such as Naruto and Nagato. A person of great power who has yet to hone their power is only a threat to himself, however powerful that person may be. To conclude myself, chakra or rather lots of chakra does increases a ninja's own strength, but through rigorous training, that same ninja can become even deadlier.

[Eddy01741]

Let me put how I think of this subject shortly.

I think if you have a decent chakra capacity (ie, Kakashi), you can still be extremely powerful. Kakashi pulled off what, 6 raikiri in his battle against Kakuzu? And he had enough chakra to spare for MS (although we do not know whether using MS would have like, made him die from exhaustion like he did vs. Pain).

However, if you have extrodinarily low chakra capacity, but are like, the best in every other aspect (jutsu, speed, intelligence, etc.), you will be limited by low chakra capacity.


Basically, having high chakra capacity can never hurt. Having low chakra capacity can hurt you. However, having high chakra only matters if you use a lot of very powerful jutsu that require lots of chakra, or if you and your opponent are so evenly matched that it becomes almost a stalemate, ultimately resulting in winning only by having larger chakra.

So basically, if you have decent chakra capacity, and your skill is higher than that of your opponent's, then you should still win.

[segua]

I think a good example of chakra is the Rock Lee versus Gaara fight. Here is a person with Lotus compared to one who is a jinchuuriki.

By using Lotus, Rock Lee gained a substantial amount of chakra bolstering his speed and physical strength. This was a very good match up in my opinion. Lotus placed Lee a par or two above Gaara. Also, Rock Lee's caliber as a fight was well above Gaara. It's said that it's easier to kill than to wound. Of course knowing Gaara's past, he has killed a lot of people and squaring off against Rock Lee must've been a big eye opener.

An example for low chakra v high chakra would be Akatsuki versus the Jinchuurikis. We all know that the tailed beasts are beasts full of enormous chakra. The jinchuurikis are infused with this potent power. Though wielding such power, most of the Jinchuurikis have fallen to the members of Akatsuki. We all know that the members of Akatsuki are people that have very high battle prowess. Though to be specific, it was a pair of Akatsuki going up agasint one Jinchuuriki for the most part.

[3c]

Ok first of all I'm sorry if a thread like this has been made before, I tried to search for any threads like this, but didn't find any. The reason why I'm making this thread is because it lately has become a hot topic in the manga, especially with Sasuke "suddenly" growing so powerful. In this thread I'll explain how this manga isn't DBZ, where power-levels and being "stronger" than another are vague terms to use. Aswell as explaining how the term "Kage level" in many cases is a very vague measurement.

First of all I'm going to use Naruto, Pain and Sasuke alot as examples in this post because they're the perfect characters to explain this topic, and their abilities will be handled with my personal opinion about them. I don't want to make this into a verus thread. This thread is to discuss the said topic in relevance to the current happenings in the manga. And also, this post is gonna be long. You have been warned, but I hope everything will be relevant and make sense so try to survive the block of text :)

Lately Sasuke has grown immensly in many peoples eyes. I understand that, and many have also gone so far as to say that Sasuke now is stronger than Naruto again. This may be true, maybe Sasuke can defeat Naruto at this stage, even though I personally don't believe that to be the case. Let's however for the sake of discussing say that Sasuke can defeat Naruto. Does this mean he can beat Pain? Not at all. And here comes the main point of this thread; this manga is not about power-levels or being stronger than the other. This manga is all about abilities vs abilities. Again, let's say Sasuke can defeat Naruto, does this mean he'll do better against Pain? Not at all. In my eyes he'll do worse. And this is because Sasuke has a different set of abilities compared to Naruto, even if he could feat him. Person A may beat person B, but lose to person C even though C would lose to B. A > B > C > A. It all goes full circle in cases like this, and Pain, Naruto and Sasuke are perfect examples of this if we pretend that Sasuke can defeat Naruto. Sasuke may win over Naruto, even though Naruto would win over Pain, but Sasuke would still lose to Pain.

Another example, is Raikage "stronger"" than Deidara? Raikage will most likely have better stats than Deidara in the databook, yes. But it doesn't mean he would win. Unlike in DBZ, if one has the power-level 500, and the other 700. The one with 500 wouldn't stand a chance unless he would be extremely lucky or have a special attack. This is not the case in this manga. Theoretically a GENIN (normal ones, not Naruto) can beat an Akatsuki (Not counting Hell Realm) even though it would never happen. Iruka's words at Sandaime's funeral are in a way so true and relevant in this manga: "A lot of people die in battle or while on a mission, and they might also die because of a simple reason" (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/139/17/). It's funny to think about, but a person like Sasuke without regenerative abilities can die in a suprisingly simple manner, like a kunai to the heart thrown from the bushes and it'd be all over. The attack could even come from a farmer, it doesn't matter how strong Sasuke is, he would still get impaled and die.

My point is as you might already know, that power-levels and being "stronger" than others are irrelevant, even if they are useful to determine a character's standing point in terms of strength and ability. Because when it all comes down to it, everything that matters is abilities vs abilities.

Now this leads to the other part of the thread. The problem here is how "Kage level" is hard to define.

I think we can all agree on genin, chuunin and jounin levels being sort of solid measurements even if these also can be vague. Kage level however is not a solid measurement. Let me explain this by using Tsunade. She is a Hokage, or was. But I think it's pretty safe to say without underestimating Tsunade to much, that she is weaker than the previous Hokages. So this means Kage level goes all the way from Tsunade's level, to the level of the previous Hokages, which in some cases is a huge difference. On top of this we have Nagato/Pain which is a shinobi on a whole other level compared to many other shinobi that we know of. So we already have three different levels inside the level of "Kage level" with these few examples.

So is being Kage-level simply something you become by passing a certain limit in terms of ability? Maybe. But still it would be a vague measurement. Because let's use Tsunade and Pain again. Can we really say that Tsunade stands a chance against Pain even if she's "Kage level"? As I see it Pain is still on a whole other level compared to her even if she's very strong (though we have yet to see her go all out). It's simply impossible to say that ninja A can defeat ninja B because they both are Kage level. It's not accurate. But the biggest flaw in the term "Kage level" is that we don't really know for certain when a person has reached that level, it's very hard to judge. Is a person Kage level when he can fight another Kage 1 on 1? Maybe. But when does he reach this level? When did Gaara suddenly become Kage level? Was he Kage level at an age of 12? It's just so many factors that are involved. I hope you see my point here.

However it's easier to define if a shinobi is Kage level if we use the same letters as they class their own missions with. D, C, B, A and S-rank ninja. Gaara is definitely S-rank, so is Tsunade and every other "Kage level" ninja. And this measurement is much easier to define because we can rank them in terms of ability. When Naruto fought Kakuzu I'd place him as a A-rank ninja. He was jounin level, but didn't have the needed set of abilities to be ranked S-rank. However when he completed his training in the Sage arts. His abilities were enhanced to a whole new level, making him into a S-rank shinobi in term of ability. But we also have to be careful here, as not all S-rank ninja are Kage level. I would for example not put Hidan in the same boot as Kages, even though he's extremely deadly and very strong. Because his overall abilities don't qualify. That's my personal opinion anyway. But still we have to take into consideration that being S-rank doesn't mean being Kage level.

Anyway this was my personal opinion on the matter. Let me know what you think as I really want to discuss this further in a thread solely dedicated to the topic.

[ameya730]

very well thought out passage i mostly agree with you that majority of the fights in the manga have been ability driven and not necessarily power driven

the main problem in accepting this fact has been the shift from part 1 to part 2. in part 1 we were introduced to genin level ninja's namely from the ninja academy and so their abilities and powers were at a certain base. now with the timeskip these genins have suddenly gained lots of abilitites and power. some have become more powerful than others while a select few have become very powerful namely naruto sasuke and gaara since the story focus on these characters most of the other characters have to be relegated to the background jounins who would have been awesome in part 1 come across as merely average and in case of pain downright pathetic.

so sometimes it seems like the power levels have just shot up DBZ style. also most manga's introduce villains in gradual increase of power levels whereas in naruto the first major villain we encountered was orochimaru and the next one were the akatsuki who were all S class nins

so most people have IMO been unable to accept the sudden shift in the type of action and battles
zabuza was a perfect introductory villain but in comparison with the current ones he would have a really tough time

in the end even though the manga still has not reached DBZ levels of absurdity (and i dont think it will ever reach that level ) its has more power based battles in which abilities play the dominent part classic example being

naruto vs pain - both guys being power fighters but the fight was all about using your abilities to the best

[jdw]

I think your post is great and could lead to a nice change, but I don't really see the problem with the current classification system based on shinobi level, not based on mission level.

Weakest shinobi are basically Genin (level)
Slightly better are basically Chuunin (level)
Really good, multiple skills/dangerous are Jounin (level)
Skill to defend a village, very powerful Kage (level)
Of course there are some exceptions but not enough to warrant a shift in the language we use to discuss it after 466 chapters, imo. In the end, all you are really doing is adding a level and doing a little shuffling but it isn't really any easier.

Genin = D
Chuunin = C
Jounin = A (strong) & B (moderate)?
Kage (level) = S

Someone like Hidan could be called a powerful/dangerous jounin but not Kage level, etc.

[ameya730]

I think your post is great and could lead to a nice change, but I don't really see the problem with the current classification system based on shinobi level, not based on mission level.

Weakest shinobi are basically Genin (level)
Slightly better are basically Chuunin (level)
Really good, multiple skills/dangerous are Jounin (level)
Skill to defend a village, very powerful Kage (level)
Of course there are some exceptions but not enough to warrant a shift in the language we use to discuss it after 466 chapters, imo. In the end, all you are really doing is adding a level and doing a little shuffling but it isn't really any easier.

Genin = D
Chuunin = C
Jounin = A (strong) & B (moderate)?
Kage (level) = S

Someone like Hidan could be called a powerful/dangerous jounin but not Kage level, etc.

there is one more thing i like to add

kage level even though in discussion we use it for many characters i think it should be evaluated based on the village

for example during orochimaru invasion arc we saw orochimaru handle two kages sarutobi and kazekage
while sarutobi proved more than a match for oro kazekage by the looks of it was defeated much more easily (speculation) so there is a large discrepancy in the kages of different villages

another example would be kakashi being nominated for hokage, while kakashi is an awesome ninja i dont think he belongs in the S rank

so i dont think kage level need always be equivalent to S rank

S should be specifically reserved for uber guys while kage level can float anywhere between jounin (A) and S rank

[3c]

I didn't really want to change the language we use to rank shinobi in our discussion. I think you misunderstood me here. This was a post to enlighten the persons who abuse the term of being Kage-level by saying "What do you mean by Tsunade not having a chance against Pain? She's a Kage! Pain is Kage level, as is Tsunade. She could defeated him". This is what I disagree with. Since a character being Kage level alone doesn't automatically mean that said character can defeat another Kage level. Heck you could even lose to lesser ranks because of the opponents abilities and skills. That was one of the points. The second was to inform about how power-levels don't "exist" and a character being stronger than another can in some cases be insignificant for the outcome of a battle as some don't believe.

And I never really wanted to start their ranking from D to S. That is just a way I myself define how skilled a shinobi is, which I think helps in defining if a shinobi is Kage level or not.

I think you slightly misunderstood me, because we both seem to share the same opinion if I'm not completely wrong :)

@Ameya730:
I completely agree. That was exactly what I was trying to show by comparing Tsunade to previous Hokages. It's a vast difference in the rank of being Kage level. It's like comparing a raptor to a T-rex. Though I disagree on Kakashi. I'd seriously place this guy in the S-rank category. He's legendary and in my opinion the most complete living shinobi at the moment with the information we have. You can check out my posts regarding Kakashi's "completeness" in the most complete shinobi thread (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53190&page=4).

[ameya730]

I didn't really want to change the language we use to rank shinobi in our discussion. I think you misunderstood me here. This was a post to enlighten the persons who abuse the term of being Kage-level by saying "What do you mean by Tsunade not having a chance against Pain? She's a Kage! Pain is Kage level, as is Tsunade. She could defeated him". This is what I disagree with. Since a character being Kage level alone doesn't automatically mean that said character can defeat another Kage level. Heck you could even lose to lesser ranks because of the opponents abilities and skills. That was one of the points. The second was to inform about how power-levels don't "exist" and a character being stronger than another can in some cases be insignificant for the outcome of a battle as some don't believe.

And I never really wanted to start their ranking from D to S. That is just a way I myself define how skilled a shinobi is, which I think helps in defining if a shinobi is Kage level or not.

I think you slightly misunderstood me, because we both seem to share the same opinion if I'm not completely wrong :)

@Ameya730:
I completely agree. That was exactly what I was trying to show by comparing Tsunade to previous Hokages. It's a waste different in the rank of being Kage level. It's like comparing a raptor to a T-rex. Though I disagree on Kakashi. I'd seriously place this guy in the S-rank category. He's legendary and in my opinion the most complete living shinobi at the moment with the information we have.

i was in two minds about this myself cause he is one of the most versatile ninja's i have seen so far in the manga the only thing that makes me reluctant to put him in the S rank is his low stamina and the sharingan

now dont get me wrong i think sharingan makes him what he is but at the same time it comes at a cost during battle it consumes a significant amount of his chakra and after the battle it makes him an invalid for sometime

so i didnt consider him S rank but anyways this is a trivial issue and best level for another thread :p

[M3J]

To be honest, ranks like genin and jounin should only exist to state the ninja's rank, not power. Many genins in Part I were already on chuunin level: Sasuke, Shikamaru, Neji, Gaara, etc. And it's hard to determine how powerful the ninjas are, whether they're stronger or not, because there have been circumstances that made it unclear. Naruto came into battle late against Kakuzu, who already lost two hearts. Gaara was already damaged by Sasuke when Naruto interfered. Jiraiya and Orochimaru were weakened, Jiraiya having been drugged and Orochimaru not being able to use his arms. Naruto had Katsuya to give him info on Pain as well as Shima and Fukasaku to help fight Pain, as Jiraiya did. Naruto beat Neji and Haku because he had the power of Kyuubi. Sasuke overpowered Orochimaru because he was sick and weak.
In fact, the only real battle I can think of that's not having to do with exams is Neji vs. Kidomaru; it was their brain and abilities against each other.
Despite all this, is Naruto still weak? Sasuke weak because he didn't really beat Itachi and Orochimaru at their best? No, but it somewhat makes it hard to say how powerful they are.

[ANBU4U]

I didn't really want to change the language we use to rank shinobi in our discussion. I think you misunderstood me here. This was a post to enlighten the persons who abuse the term of being Kage-level by saying "What do you mean by Tsunade not having a chance against Pain? She's a Kage! Pain is Kage level, as is Tsunade. She could defeated him". This is what I disagree with. Since a character being Kage level alone doesn't automatically mean that said character can defeat another Kage level. Heck you could even lose to lesser ranks because of the opponents abilities and skills. That was one of the points. The second was to inform about how power-levels don't "exist" and a character being stronger than another can in some cases be insignificant for the outcome of a battle as some don't believe.

And I never really wanted to start their ranking from D to S. That is just a way I myself define how skilled a shinobi is, which I think helps in defining if a shinobi is Kage level or not.

I think you slightly misunderstood me, because we both seem to share the same opinion if I'm not completely wrong :)

@Ameya730:
I completely agree. That was exactly what I was trying to show by comparing Tsunade to previous Hokages. It's a vast difference in the rank of being Kage level. It's like comparing a raptor to a T-rex. Though I disagree on Kakashi. I'd seriously place this guy in the S-rank category. He's legendary and in my opinion the most complete living shinobi at the moment with the information we have. You can check out my posts regarding Kakashi's "completeness" in the most complete shinobi thread (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53190&page=4).

Hatake Kakashi undertakes S-Ranked Missions. And Completes them.

Therefore he is by definition an S-Ranked Shinobi. Thats what the OP was trying to say...just rank them by the missions they can do...its much easier.

[jdw]

Hatake Kakashi undertakes S-Ranked Missions. And Completes them.

Therefore he is by definition an S-Ranked Shinobi. Thats what the OP was trying to say...just rank them by the missions they can do...its much easier.

Even TenTen & Neji have completed an S-rank mission or two, so I am not sure we want to use this standard. S-rank TenTen, lmao.

[SeventhPath]

First, I'd like to point out that the fights in "Naruto" seek to create suspense; they are not based on sound tactical/strategic thinking.

For example - in any battle between two powerful shinobi, each shinobi should use his strongest jutsu against his opponent as soon as possible.
Why?
Because such jutsus will one-shoot the opponent - this means the shinobi has to use them before the opponent kills him with his own techniques. And if the jutsu fails to kill the opponent, then the shinobi will know he's too weak to win and should concentrate on escaping.
Why does this not happen, and almost each battle starts with an useless "introduction" of weak jutsu - which have no chance of harming the adversary? Because, as I said, the purpose of the manga is to create suspense, to make both fighters look good/cool at one point or another.

Another example - a long-range fighter should always win against mid and short-range ninja.
Why?
Because he can stay outside the opponent's weapon range and bombard his enemy. That's a huge/winning advantage (basic military doctrine). And yet, Deidara lost to Sasuke - that's because Deidara was struck by plot-induced stupidity and got too close to the Uchiha.

In short, Kishi will made his characters behave stupidly (latest example - Raikage becoming a tactical moron and offering his arm to Sasuke) or will create deus ex machina power-ups so that the battles end as the plot requires.
And this is the reason why one can't predict the result of the battles based on the opponents power-level (but can predict the outcome when one considers the overall plot).

Some big plot-holes concerning power-levels:

Madara can teleport anywhere, interact with the material world and teleport someone back with him.
Why did he sent Pain to capture Naruto (Madara admitted that he wanted/needed Pain - or, rather, Nagato's revival jutsu). Why didn't Madara capture the other bijuus himself (while they were sleeping or simply by appearing behind them and stabbing/hitting them?). Why didn't he kill everyone who is in his way yet - the Kages, for example?
Madara's abilities make him de facto invincible. He hasn't used this invincibility for the simple reason that it would be a boring plot.

When Akatsuki had all its members, it was, by far, the most powerful super-power in the Narutoverse. Picture all Akatsuki members attacking Konoha - or any other village. They would have won - easily.
Why was it hiding and running? Akatsuki should have asked the bijuu to be delivered to them by their villages - or else. A disciplinary attack/destruction of a village or two should have shown the ninja world what were the choices - either submit or die.
The Akatsuki were, practically, the masters of the world - no bijuu required. But, again, this would have been a boring plot.
[hr]

I disagree on Kakashi. I'd seriously place this guy in the S-rank category. He's legendary and in my opinion the most complete living shinobi at the moment with the information we have.

We've recently seen the chakra level the kages and top jounin have. Kakashi is nowhere near that level.
He doesn't have what it takes to be at the Kage's level. His only chance to defeat a Kage is to one-shoot him with his really slow (aka unlikely to be efficient) MS tech. All his other 999 weak jutsu are useless.

About his "legendary" reputation - much like Konoha's, it wasn't supported by much actual skill. His performances against Akatsuki to date have been less than impressive (to say the least) - and he is supposed to be the Konoha's top ninja. When viewed from this angle, Pain's success against Konoha actually makes sense/was foreshadowed.

That doesn't mean that Kishi won't dramatically increase his chakra level or MS jutsu speed if the plot necesitates that, of course.

[ameya730]

First, I'd like to point out that the fights in "Naruto" seek to create suspense; they are not based on sound tactical/strategic thinking.

For example - in any battle between two powerful shinobi, each shinobi should use his strongest jutsu against his opponent as soon as possible.
Why?
Because such jutsus will one-shoot the opponent - this means the shinobi has to use them before the opponent kills him with his own techniques. And if the jutsu fails to kill the opponent, then the shinobi will know he's too weak to win and should concentrate on escaping.
Why does this not happen, and almost each battle starts with an useless "introduction" of weak jutsu - which have no chance of harming the adversary? Because, as I said, the purpose of the manga is to create suspense, to make both fighters look good/cool at one point or another.

i disagree most of the fights in naruto are based on strategy suspense is automatically created not necessarily because of who wins but also because of how the person wins.

for example we always knew that shikamaru would avenge asuma's death but it was the way he went about doing it that was more important and fun to watch.

about people not using their strongest justu to start the match. the reason is simple using your strongest jutsu at the start does not guarantee a win and the downside is if your opponent survives then not only have you shown him your trump card but also you have used up most of your chakra.

consider the battle between orochimaru and sandaime oro used edo tensei almost immediately which can be assumed to be his most powerful tech i mean summoning two of the most powerful shinobi's that has to be a trump card and yet at the end he did not win.



Another example - a long-range fighter should always win against mid and short-range ninja.
Why?
Because he can stay outside the opponent's weapon range and bombard his enemy. That's a huge/winning advantage (basic military doctrine). And yet, Deidara lost to Sasuke - that's because Deidara was struck by plot-induced stupidity and got too close to the Uchiha.

In short, Kishi will made his characters behave stupidly (latest example - Raikage becoming a tactical moron and offering his arm to Sasuke) or will create deus ex machina power-ups so that the battles end as the plot requires.
And this is the reason why one can't predict the result of the battles based on the opponents power-level (but can predict the outcome when one considers the overall plot).

your example of diedara sasuke battle is wrong diedara intended to stay outside sasuke's range and sasuke used good tactics and strategy to get to him.

as far i remember the only time i would have called something deux machina would be pain resurrecting all the konoha people but again the rinnegan was hyped up to that extent so i can let that go by

i see nothing wrong with the way raikage fought sure he lost his arm and sure he would have lost his life had jumped directly on sasuke but thats how kishi has written that character in mind right from the start raikage has been potrayed as someone whose emotions govern him whether it is breaking the wall breaking the table or trying to break sasuke's neck through ametarasu

regarding predicting the overall battle that is true for any shonen manga the hero always wins in the end most people dont care who wins all they care is how the fight takes place and thats the most fun part IMO



Some big plot-holes concerning power-levels:

Madara can teleport anywhere, interact with the material world and teleport someone back with him.
Why did he sent Pain to capture Naruto (Madara admitted that he wanted/needed Pain - or, rather, Nagato's revival jutsu). Why didn't Madara capture the other bijuus himself (while they were sleeping or simply by appearing behind them and stabbing/hitting them?). Why didn't he kill everyone who is in his way yet - the Kages, for example?
Madara's abilities make him de facto invincible. He hasn't used this invincibility for the simple reason that it would be a boring plot.

cant comment on this right now since i dont know the full extent of his powers, their pros and cons and his objectives so for the moment i concede your point



When Akatsuki had all its members, it was, by far, the most powerful super-power in the Narutoverse. Picture all Akatsuki members attacking Konoha - or any other village. They would have won - easily.
Why was it hiding and running? Akatsuki should have asked the bijuu to be delivered to them by their villages - or else. A disciplinary attack/destruction of a village or two should have shown the ninja world what were the choices - either submit or die.
The Akatsuki were, practically, the masters of the world - no bijuu required. But, again, this would have been a boring plot.
<hr noshade size="1">

if the akatsuki had all attacked a village then the whole of the shinobi world would have been on guard against them and would have banded together and would have destroyed them

at the kage summit kazekage says that after my bijuu was captured i tried taking the help of the other nations but none apart from konoha helped which showed that the tactics of akatsuki of hiding in shadows worked

and no the akatsuki were not all powerful they were merely S class criminals means their power levels were above that of the regular shinobi

kishi displayed in the hidan kakuza fight that average shinobi could defeat the akatsuki if they were prepared for akatsuki

[En Yang Ji]

RS is the true God of Shinobi. He's the only one who belongs in a God Tier.

[Quetz]

Even TenTen & Neji have completed an S-rank mission or two, so I am not sure we want to use this standard. S-rank TenTen, lmao.

Soloing an S-rank mission makes you an S-rank shinobi. Being part of an 8 (well, 9) man team that deals with a single S-rank mission isn't the same thing.

See the picture in my sig? I, a person of zero experience (and questionable talent) threw that together with photoshop, because I feel that the series it links to is well worth your time to read. Why would I do this? Because it's just that good. Click the pic, and read the story.

[patedecarne]

Well, the power level is somewhat subjective here. Why Am I saying that?
Because being stronger doesn't mean you will defeat a weaker opponent.

I love this example: Shikamaru vs Hidan. Obvious, Hidan was stronger than Shikamaru in many aspects(mainly the raw power), but Shikamaru has one of the best atributes so far: intelligence. It's a powerful weapon, and in the right hands, it's deadly.

To tell the truth, I'd say about 50% of all the battles of Naruto could be solved through intelligence, and particulary, I think intelligence is way more important than any physical power. So, you could be a Kage only using intelligence, IMO.

[benelori]

Interesting read, nice topic...I'd only add that becuz of these power "inconsistencies", the concept teamwork was introduced...that's why this manga has a bit more credibility cuz it's conflicts can be defined as similar to what happens in reality...
Also, to comment on the official levels, which appear in jdw's post...academy student level is missing but is not relevant...I would like to say, that IMO those levels are applied only to shinobi who are promoted officially in their village...so hidan was S-rank, but not kage level...that's true, but he couldn't even become a chuunin in an exam supervised by ibiki for example...
So from genin to chuunin, there are moral aspects which need to be satisified(see ibiki's speech), one must be a good leader, just skills are not enough...so that's what chuunin is...a special jounin is a chuunin who can specialize in one area, so this time is about skill only...as a jounin one must have skills that can be used in every situation, must be a teacher at some point, good team leader...so genin,chuunin,jounin is different from A,B,C,D levels...that's why genins can do A,B level missions if their abilities are suited for it...
The kage level needs to satisfy the the genin, chuunin, jounin requirments,. but on another level...so not just a team leader, but a village leader...experience with the village's overall life, experience in dealing with other villages, power to defend the village etc...
So tsunade is much more kage level than pain, but not as S-ranked as pain can be...So E rank-S rank refers to power and fighting ability, which is nowhere near the ranking system employed by konoha for example...
Although pain is kage-level, too...he was the head of a village, reformed his village in a way, and he was able to hold together a powerful organization like akatsuki...
Naruto defeated him, but naruto is nowhere near kage level...even if he's getting closer every minute...

I know most things were probably said already...I just wanted to point out the difference which IMO is important beetween the ranking by letter(E-S) and the ranking by an official system with well rounded requirements

[Xiraiya]

Very good, my only issue with this is the fact Hokage's up until Tsunade have all been in aleague of their own even among Kage's. So it makes it hard to determine what really is Kage rank.

Personally, I'd be tempted to have Hokage as a separate rank to Kage, but that's just me haha.

[benelori]

Konoha's Sannin were very powerful...but they achieved this title as a group, not as individuals...and let's not forget she's in her fifties so her endurance could be considerably lower than in her prime...
Now her abilities are not suited for ninjutsu, genjutsu combat...she said it herself...a medical ninja is for support and must never die to be able to give support...that's why she and sakura train in taijutsu, reflexes, raw power(which is not entirely related to power)...her medical knowledge is far beyond anyone now,even kabuto who has been stated that is a natural talent, instead of actual high class medical nin like tsunade...
So she uses taijutsu, has great reflexes and cannot die in battle...that's good enough for me...U can't really compare her to pain for example, who had the gift of a powerful doujutsu, but in the line of hokages I think she has a pretty decent position,considering she healed most of the villagers, by her own, through her summon...

So if I were to place her among the hokages, I'd put her in front of tobirama for example for sure...

So what kage rank is...I posted that, it's not really related to fighting ability...even considering fighting ability I think she deserves her position among the hokages and doesn't alter the definition of the hokage group...

We must consider her abilities to judge everyone, when he/she was in his/her prime...time influences everyone and the position as hokage doesn't enable much action...

When U make a separate kage group...U should consider including sandaime kazekage, jinchuuriki yondaime mizukage...

Kage level IMO should start from the level of people like kakashi...that's what kage level looks like in general terms...

[niblack89]

I like the rank D-S its sounds better than calling people kage level cause there are only 5 kages and one doesn't deserve that title. Here is what I think of team 7

For ranks I think Naruto without sage mode should be A ranked cause he has proven to be up there with Kakashi and Yammito and can hold his own with any ninja but his jutsu arsenal is regular. Of course with sage mode he is S he distroyed 4 pain bodies easy with sage mode fat pain was defeated when he adsorbed sage chakra not by sage mode, cause of sage mode. His jutsus are the same but more devastating. When he learns how to control the Kyuubi then he will be unstoppable.

Kakashi is A ranked to me cause all though his jutsu arsenal is massive, he is smart exc his one down fall is his stamina. I think Kakashi will grow into an S level ninja in time.

Sakura is B here is why. Sakura has monstrous strength and is great in medical jutsu but she doesn't have the battle experience in a one on one battle, she can't use her medical jutsu out side of battle like Tsunade and Kabuto can. her taijutsu is average. She doesn't have super strength it would be hard for her to ketch a stronger ninja with her punch. I think Sakura would need a war actually she would have the battle experience to probably use medical jutsus inside a battle and her taijutsu would increase and like Kakashi said she is a genjutsu user. She has the potential to be better than Tsunade but she isn't getting any action.

Sai we never actually saw Sai in action. So i can't really deduce his powers.

Sasuke is actually boarder line between A and S of he is just learning how to use his MS powers now. This fight showed him his limits of his powers but he used AM in a great way. Why to me he isn't fully S is because though he did fight with 4 kages he doesn't know his limits yet and he didn't use Sasunoo to its fullest form. I think his next fight he will fight S rate. Raikage got to many hits that fight even though in the end Sasuke did have the upper hand there is no telling if the raikage connected with that last attack would it had broken his little Sasunoo and killed Sasuke and burned raikage also.

Yamamatto is A rank even though he has the 1st jutsu he can't use it to it fullest. I think if he uses the leaf forestation jutsu he will be proven to have mastered wood element to a degree as the 1st did.

[ganjabuss]

IMO D-S ranking could works better...
naruto now is S rank...
sasuke S rank
kakashi S rank[he has etensive jutsu arsenal and knowledge, sharingan. only thing falls short is in chakra stamina but he'd have more if he didn't use sharingan or MS]
sakura is A RANK medic but with overall ability that comes down to B rank max...
yamato A rank
sai A RANK

[Pyrogunz]

I like the rank D-S its sounds better than calling people kage level cause there are only 5 kages and one doesn't deserve that title. Here is what I think of team 7

For ranks I think Naruto without sage mode should be A ranked cause he has proven to be up there with Kakashi and Yammito and can hold his own with any ninja but his jutsu arsenal is regular. Of course with sage mode he is S he distroyed 4 pain bodies easy with sage mode fat pain was defeated when he adsorbed sage chakra not by sage mode, cause of sage mode. His jutsus are the same but more devastating. When he learns how to control the Kyuubi then he will be unstoppable.

Kakashi is A ranked to me cause all though his jutsu arsenal is massive, he is smart exc his one down fall is his stamina. I think Kakashi will grow into an S level ninja in time.

Sakura is B here is why. Sakura has monstrous strength and is great in medical jutsu but she doesn't have the battle experience in a one on one battle, she can't use her medical jutsu out side of battle like Tsunade and Kabuto can. her taijutsu is average. She doesn't have super strength it would be hard for her to ketch a stronger ninja with her punch. I think Sakura would need a war actually she would have the battle experience to probably use medical jutsus inside a battle and her taijutsu would increase and like Kakashi said she is a genjutsu user. She has the potential to be better than Tsunade but she isn't getting any action.

Sai we never actually saw Sai in action. So i can't really deduce his powers.

Sasuke is actually boarder line between A and S of he is just learning how to use his MS powers now. This fight showed him his limits of his powers but he used AM in a great way. Why to me he isn't fully S is because though he did fight with 4 kages he doesn't know his limits yet and he didn't use Sasunoo to its fullest form. I think his next fight he will fight S rate. Raikage got to many hits that fight even though in the end Sasuke did have the upper hand there is no telling if the raikage connected with that last attack would it had broken his little Sasunoo and killed Sasuke and burned raikage also.

Yamamatto is A rank even though he has the 1st jutsu he can't use it to it fullest. I think if he uses the leaf forestation jutsu he will be proven to have mastered wood element to a degree as the 1st did.

I pretty much agree with everything you said.

Kiba, Ino, Chouji, Shino, Lee, Hinata - All B rank unless they prove otherwise

Ino = C rank

Neji - I'm assuming he's A rank, and that Lee is very close

Shikamaru - A rank after that stupendous battle, he's proven he can go toe to toe with akatsuki (albeit one of the weakest, but still)

Gai - A

Yes, this D/S rank works much better.

IMO, all Shikamaru needs is to be able to summon monsters on the field and use them as "chess pieces" and he will definitely be A rank (much stronger).

[niblack89]

I pretty much agree with everything you said.

Kiba, Ino, Chouji, Shino, Lee, Hinata - All B rank unless they prove otherwise

Ino = C rank

Neji - I'm assuming he's A rank, and that Lee is very close

Shikamaru - A rank after that stupendous battle, he's proven he can go toe to toe with akatsuki (albeit one of the weakest, but still)

Gai - A

Yes, this D/S rank works much better.

IMO, all Shikamaru needs is to be able to summon monsters on the field and use them as "chess pieces" and he will definitely be A rank (much stronger).

I agree with almost all the characters you named except Lee. Lee is A with the gates but over all with out the gates he seems to be average B rank

[Prince Sasuke]

MY list: Jounins:
Rookies:
Sasuke S rank (kage level) Kakashi A+
Naruto S rank (kage level) Gai A-
Gaara A+ rank (Kage level) Yamato A
Neji B+ rank
Shikamaru B+ rank
Lee B rank
Shino B rank
Sakura B rank
Kiba C+ rank
Hinata C rank
Ten ten C rank
Ino C rank

[niblack89]

Nice list
here's mine

Sasuke S rank
Naruto S rank
Gaara A rank
Neji A rank
Shikamaru A rank
Lee B rank with the gates A
Shino B rank
Sakura B rank
Ten ten C rank
Ino C rank
Kakashi A
Gai A with the gates S
Yamato A

[jdw]

Sasuke S rank
Naruto S rank
Gaara S rank
Neji A rank
Shikamaru A rank
Lee A/B
Shino B rank
Sakura B rank
Ten ten D rank
Ino D rank
Kakashi S rank
Gai S rank
Yamato A rank
Hinata B rank
Sakura B rank
Chouji C rank

[hajialibaig]

mm speaking of ninja levels, the 3rd databook's stats are from the time skip right?

cause naruto's stats are lower than sakura's...(Area wise)

[3c]

Interesting, we've started making lists now. Anyway here's mine.

Sasuke S rank
Naruto S rank
Gaara S rank
Neji A rank
Shikamaru A rank
Lee B
Shino B rank
Sakura B rank
Ten ten D rank
Ino D rank
Kakashi S rank
Gai S rank
Yamato A rank
Hinata B rank
Sakura B rank
Chouji C rank
Asuma S/A rank
Kurenai A rank
Konohamaru C rank
Killer Bee S rank
Kankurou A rank
Temari A rank

LOL turned out exactly like jdw -_-;
With the only exception being Lee. I put him as a B rank simply because his overall stats are so low if you look away from taijutsu, strength and speed. Also I added a few more characters.


mm speaking of ninja levels, the 3rd databook's stats are from the time skip right?

cause naruto's stats are lower than sakura's...(Area wise)

It doesn't cover him after sage mode training. He's obviously improved both in base mode, and let's not even begin imagining the stat improvement when he's using sage mode. Naruto should be abit under Sasuke's stats in base mode in my opinion. And with Sage Mode probably beat him in many areas both overally have "equal" stats.

[jdw]

Interesting, we've started making lists now. Anyway here's mine.

Sasuke S rank
Naruto S rank
Gaara S rank
Neji A rank
Shikamaru A rank
Lee B
Shino B rank
Sakura B rank
Ten ten D rank
Ino D rank
Kakashi S rank
Gai S rank
Yamato A rank
Hinata B rank
Sakura B rank
Chouji C rank
Asuma S/A rank
Kurenai A rank
Konohamaru C rank
Killer Bee S rank
Kankurou A rank
Temari A rank

LOL turned out exactly like jdw -_-;
With the only exception being Lee. I put him as a B rank simply because his overall stats are so low if you look away from taijutsu, strength and speed. Also I added a few more characters.



It doesn't cover him after sage mode training. He's obviously improved both in base mode, and let's not even begin imagining the stat improvement when he's using sage mode. Naruto should be abit under Sasuke's stats in base mode in my opinion. And with Sage Mode probably beat him in many areas both overally have "equal" stats.

Great minds think alike :)

I put Lee as A/B because he is hard to fit into either. I think he is capable of A but his downsides put him in B.

[niblack89]

Konohamaru is at least B he did what no other ninja did take out a pain.

Konohamaru's fighting style seems to be very smart he seems to be like both Naruto and Kakashi. I wonder if he can make a lot of clones.

Seems the reinngen's weakness was the resangan. All except one were defeated by that move

[3c]

Great minds think alike :)

I put Lee as A/B because he is hard to fit into either. I think he is capable of A but his downsides put him in B.

Lol, indeed :amuse

That's exactly what I was thinking too. But after thinking abit I just figured he belonged more in B than in the A class. Simply because of his stats and abilities. I'm sure he can fight most A ranked shinobi equally, but that didn't give him enough edge to be A ranked imo.


Konohamaru is at least B he did what no other ninja did take out a pain.

Konohamaru's fighting style seems to be very smart he seems to be like both Naruto and Kakashi. I wonder if he can make a lot of clones.

In my opinion Konohamaru isn't B ranked. B ranked is a low jounin level ninja, Konohamaru is nowhere near jounin level simply because he can use Kage Bunshin and a Chibi-Rasengan. He even had to use a clone to maintain the Rasengan, which suggests his chakra control is pretty bad. Konohamaru is C rank, that's a good rank for a fresh genin -_-;

[M3J]

Konohamaru is at least B he did what no other ninja did take out a pain.

Konohamaru's fighting style seems to be very smart he seems to be like both Naruto and Kakashi. I wonder if he can make a lot of clones.

Seems the reinngen's weakness was the resangan. All except one were defeated by that move

At most, he's C. Jiraiya and Kakashi took out a Pain, one Pain at least. Jiraiya took out three Pain and Kakashi could have taken out Deva if Asura didn't come outta nowhere and surprised Kakashi. Kakashi and Jiraiya went in at the beginning, Konohamaru used kage bunshin. He needed two bunshins to even keep rasengan going, and it was still small. To be honest, there's nothing smart about his style, especially when he uses the basic shinobi rule/s or something.
Rinnegan's weakness is any moves, like raikiri or raikage bunshin or w/e.

Also, A, B, C, and etc makes more sense than genin, chuunin, jounin, etc. :s

[niblack89]

Maybe Konohamaru is but still even Naruto still uses two hands to form a resangan and shadow clone and resangan was the same jutsus used to take down god realm. Ebisu who was special Joninn couldn't stand a chance against hell realm. had a super strategy and pulled it off like a pro. As basic as the style is he still hit pain with it and saved his teacher He may not have killed hell realm but he achieved a feat that no one in the village could achieve besides Kakashi he proved he could kill a pain.

[3c]

Maybe Konohamaru is but still even Naruto still uses two hands to form a resangan and shadow clone and resangan was the same jutsus used to take down god realm. Ebisu who was special Joninn couldn't stand a chance against hell realm. had a super strategy and pulled it off like a pro. As basic as the style is he still hit pain with it and saved his teacher

So did Naruto here, does that mean he's B ranked as a fresh genin? (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/14/19-20/) Nope. Ebisu was a sacrifice to show Konohamaru's growth, just like Kakashi has been so many times already.

[M3J]

Maybe Konohamaru is but still even Naruto still uses two hands to form a resangan and shadow clone and resangan was the same jutsus used to take down god realm. Ebisu who was special Joninn couldn't stand a chance against hell realm. had a super strategy and pulled it off like a pro. As basic as the style is he still hit pain with it and saved his teacher He may not have killed hell realm but he achieved a feat that no one in the village could achieve besides Kakashi he proved he could kill a pain.

But he doesn't need two hands or a kage bunshin to hold it after forming it, Konohamaru does. Naruto's is even bigger.
Ebisu went with headon attack/s, Konohamaru tried a different way and took Pain off guard. His super strategy was most likely taught by Naruto or observed when Naruto fought Neji. Pain's weakness is his ability to underestimate his opponents and get offguard, which is what Konohamaru and Naruto have done. Difference is, Naruto didn't start out the fight with a bunshin, went headon, Konohamaru used bunshin and was safe. That's my opinion anyway. The main way to stand a chance against Pain is to catch him offguard. Naruto proved that, Konohamaru proved that, Kakashi proved that, and Jiraiya certainly proved that. He's C at best, Konohamaru. Not to say he's not smart or he won't become stronger, he definitely will, and he has some intelligence, but he basically did what most D-ranked genins should be able to do.

[niblack89]

to me C is ten-ten and and Ino which is should be but really isn't he used the shadow clone is the way it's suppose to be and the resangan the way Naruto uses it. It maybe small but he accomplished the job I don't think Ten-ten nor Ino have a jutsu nor a plain to complete it.
[hr]
I was looking at the date books and I was very upset at how of a novice Naruto seems. He beat one of the most rounded shinobi in the Universe and he doesn't come off as even a Jounin. He beat what could be said the most powerful of all the pains with out the use of sage mode. Destroyed Kakuzu without sage mode. I mean his intelligence, speed and force should have increased by now hell even ninjutsu. I know they aren't going to put down sage mode but that would increase him more.

His stats are bad compared to sasukes. Sasukes are extremely high

[3c]

The stats are from before his sage training, hence his low stats compared to Sasuke. He should be improved now, especially in sage mode.

[RandomShikafan]

I think we're not being generous enough here. Remember. Genin do D-ranks and C-rank, Chuunins do C-ranks and D-ranks, Jounins do A-ranks and S-ranks, Kages only enter the battlefield in case of emergency. Now, considering what mission the Konoha 12 frequent and their relative success they are de facto Jounin level. But more then that, only the best Genin do C's. Let's go back to what Kabuto said. The Genin sent to the Chuunin Exams by the various villages are the best they have to offer as a show of their fighting strength, all of them have been ddoing this for years. By the time the prelimenaries rolled around 21 candidates remained. As Sasuke said only the really good ones remained.

Among which the Rookie Nine. Make no mistake, each of them, right down to Ino are the cream of the crop as far as ninjas go. Their going after Sasuke and I can't imagine their fight being portrayed as hopeless when it comes. Sasuke just ran freaking Kage gaunlet. Considering that each of them are experienced for Chuunin now I can't imagine any of them being any lower then B-rank. Shikamaru, Sai, Shino and Lee I'd consider A rank. Neji might be S-rank.

[niblack89]

I think we're not being generous enough here. Remember. Genin do D-ranks and C-rank, Chuunins do C-ranks and D-ranks, Jounins do A-ranks and S-ranks, Kages only enter the battlefield in case of emergency. Now, considering what mission the Konoha 12 frequent and their relative success they are de facto Jounin level. But more then that, only the best Genin do C's. Let's go back to what Kabuto said. The Genin sent to the Chuunin Exams by the various villages are the best they have to offer as a show of their fighting strength, all of them have been ddoing this for years. By the time the prelimenaries rolled around 21 candidates remained. As Sasuke said only the really good ones remained.

Among which the Rookie Nine. Make no mistake, each of them, right down to Ino are the cream of the crop as far as ninjas go. Their going after Sasuke and I can't imagine their fight being portrayed as hopeless when it comes. Sasuke just ran freaking Kage gaunlet. Considering that each of them are experienced for Chuunin now I can't imagine any of them being any lower then B-rank. Shikamaru, Sai, Shino and Lee I'd consider A rank. Neji might be S-rank.

Wow I don't really see that. The D-S determines the level instead of saying kage level. It your opinion but I can't see Neji taking out someone like jiraiya, or Pain. We know that Some one in Nejis rank can do S rank missions but I think the ranks are to determine power level. Example Garra is a Kage but I don't think that he can actually take on someone like Itachi or Oruchimaru.

on another note here is who I think is S ranked. (living)

1. The legendary Sannin
2. Itachi
3. Pain
4. Naruto (sage mode)
5. Sasuke
6. Raikage
7. Killerbee
8. Kasame

I didn't list Kakashi cause I think he's missing something a little oomph. maybe a major powerful jutsu (If he can use his MS to the level Itachi, Sasuke, and Tobi could then he would defiantly be S right now its an extreme emergency jutsu or if he created a lightning resangan something that could make him crush an enemy and cancel out the fact that the sharingan takes away his stamina.)

I didn't say Garra cause after the Deidara fight it showed me that he doesn't end a fight quick enough. Say what you want but he had the whole desert at his desposel and couldn't ketch him. I want him to be there but he isn't showing me the goods Deidara was strong but got :pwned by Kasashi, Naruto decked him, Itachi well... Thats expected. Not to play down Deidaria but Garra shouldn't have lost.

mizukage and Tsuchikage didn't do enough jutsus and they beat on a half dead sasuke. They maybe super S's but I got to see or hear of there abilities (Kasame took on Gai with 30% of his abilities and made him go up to 6 gates 2 more and dead)

[M3J]

Kakashi is S-rank. The fact that the kages all know him and trust him proves how dangerous he is.

We shouldn't judge power based on rank, because one could be kage level powerful, but still lose to a genin because he's an idiot, while the genin's smart. I think it should be more based on how rounded a shinobi is, like Kakashi and Itachi being rounded, whereas Naruto is more power than smarts, and Shika more smarts than power, and et cetera.

[RandomShikafan]

The fact is that after S there are still Shinobi that are worlds apart. Orochimaru was easily kage level, competing with Minato for the title of 4th but 11 year old Itachi Aizenstomped him. Compare that current day Itachi. They still are worlds apart and even after perfecting his immortality jutsu Orochimaru simply considered going after Itachi not an option, he's just stronger then him. Even Orochimaru, who made light of facing Kakashi, Jiraiya, Tsunade and Sarutobi, in other words, the most arrogant fighter we have ever seen acknowledges this. I have seen Tiers that like this S++, S+, S, -S, +A.

When I say that Neji is S-rank I'm not saying he's rolling with the Sannin. But as has finally been confirmed, Byakugan has the best Genjutsu defense ever, and Neji is wicked fast, and he has his own ultimate defence and some of the best taijutsu we've seen. Just like there opponents that Naruto can defeat but Sasuke can't and vice versa, I can say the same about Neji and Gaara.

[niblack89]

Kakashi is S-rank. The fact that the kages all know him and trust him proves how dangerous he is.

We shouldn't judge power based on rank, because one could be kage level powerful, but still lose to a genin because he's an idiot, while the genin's smart. I think it should be more based on how rounded a shinobi is, like Kakashi and Itachi being rounded, whereas Naruto is more power than smarts, and Shika more smarts than power, and et cetera.

I don't see Kakashi as being S yet he has smarts but I don't see any destructive powers yet. He has 1001 Jutsus but I don't see any super powerful jutsus except Lightning blade (I forgot it in the Japanese name)
The most destructive jutsu besides that is Kamui which he really can't use if he likes his sharingan.


So did Naruto here, does that mean he's B ranked as a fresh genin? (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/14/19-20/) Nope. Ebisu was a sacrifice to show Konohamaru's growth, just like Kakashi has been so many times already.

No he wasn't B level there but he had the help of sasuke while Konohamaru stopped a pain body by him self. Naruto is unpredictable and saskue is cunning and smart. Zabuza was showen to underestimate his enemey like saying Haku was on kakashi's level while sasuke only unlocked a premature sharingan and he saw straight through hakus speed while kakashi has fully matured sharingan and his speed was far greater than sasukes. Saying that made himself very weak cause that was hakus trump card and if sasuke had sharingan before the fight he would killed haku.

pain is the strongest shinobi we eve saw and only few people were able to take out a body even though Konohamaru didn't kill him he stopped him and showed he is smart for his age. I may have exagerated in saying Konohamaru was B rank but he isn't the same level as Ino an
Ten ten. the resangan its self makes him C

[Tengu24]

Maito Guy is also a force to be reckoned with, I give him a near S ranking

[niblack89]

I find it amazing that the levels of ninjas are great. We can say that the Rikudō sage was the strongest. His sons were also strong considering they had half of there fathers abilities. I would love to compare Hashirama and Madara to the sages sons.

It was said that the eldest son was given the eyes and the youngest was given the body(strength). The brothers were the founders of the senju and uchiha we can see that the uchihas have the sharingan and great chakras what made the senju so powerful? Hashirama had a strange blood limit that has never been introduced or spoken of before. If my guess is right by looking at the leaf all the most powerful ninjas were geniuses with different abilities and great chakras.

Sasuke has the eyes and Naruto has the the body he wont get tired out and he has super strength. It seems to me that the ones gifted with the eyes seem to lose to the one gifted with the body.

[mr.danly]

The fact is that after S there are still Shinobi that are worlds apart. Orochimaru was easily kage level, competing with Minato for the title of 4th but 11 year old Itachi Aizenstomped him. Compare that current day Itachi. They still are worlds apart and even after perfecting his immortality jutsu Orochimaru simply considered going after Itachi not an option, he's just stronger then him. Even Orochimaru, who made light of facing Kakashi, Jiraiya, Tsunade and Sarutobi, in other words, the most arrogant fighter we have ever seen acknowledges this. I have seen Tiers that like this S++, S+, S, -S, +A.

When I say that Neji is S-rank I'm not saying he's rolling with the Sannin. But as has finally been confirmed, Byakugan has the best Genjutsu defense ever, and Neji is wicked fast, and he has his own ultimate defence and some of the best taijutsu we've seen. Just like there opponents that Naruto can defeat but Sasuke can't and vice versa, I can say the same about Neji and Gaara.

LOL AIZENSTOMPED.... HAHAHAHAHAHA such a good phrase. But yeah I agree. S rank is such a broad category that it's almost better to break it up into several different ranks. And a S-Ranked ninja could still lose to an A-Rank or lower, depending on how they're matched up. For example, Sakura, who's a B/A rank kunoichi at best, defeated Sasori with the help of Chiyo.

[Tengou]

Itachi was a hell of a lot older than 11 when Orochimaru tried to bind and gag him and string him up in his Orochicave for some NSFW 'experimentation', considering he was already like, what, 13 or 14 when the massacre occurred. But I do agree soundly on the jarring amount of vagueness that the ranking system embodies. If E-rank is low to mid academy-level barely half-competent and chakra-sensitive, and D/C, C/B, and B/A are roughly comparable to Genin, Chuunin and Jounin-level respectively, you could simply add the prefix 'skilled' in order to further elaborate on the breadth of a character's power. For example, pick one of the nameless genins that failed the chuunin exam at random and you'll likely have a D-rank ninja, whereas the average candidate passing the first two stages of the exam will probably be C-rank, and Genma Shiranui could be considered Jounin/B-rank, whereas Kakashi is a 'Skilled' Jounin/A-rank. As this is just an example, I don't pretend this comparison is supremely accurate (that's why it's an example, yay), but it does convert the letter-based scale of badassness in one of more manageable terms in the same manner as which the explanation by the Third Hokage associated the ninja ranks with the ranks of the missions they were assigned.

The only level that requires more shoehorning is the aforementioned S-rank or S-class, which ranges from roughly the Elite Jounin level that Kakashi has shades of at the very lower tier of the spectrum, and steadily rises to pass Monster-tier (Itachi, Jiraiya, Orochimaru), God-tier (Pain, Madara) on its way to its final destination of Eldritch Abomination-Tier (The Sage of Six Paths, purportedly). In conclusion, the letter-based classification system runs out of available letters about four steps too early.

[RandomShikafan]

Itachi was a hell of a lot older than 11 when Orochimaru tried to bind and gag him and string him up in his Orochicave for some NSFW 'experimentation', considering he was already like, what, 13 or 14 when the massacre occurred.

He was 11, I can't help it if they can't draw young Itachi properly. It was before the timeskip it was 7 years that orochimaru left the Akatsuki, Itachi was 17/18 before the timeskip, it was ten years after the timeskip that he left, Itachi was 21 after the timeskip. If anything he was closer to ten when he massacred the Uchiha.



But I do agree soundly on the jarring amount of vagueness that the ranking system embodies. If E-rank is low to mid academy-level barely half-competent and chakra-sensitive, and D/C, C/B, and B/A are roughly comparable to Genin, Chuunin and Jounin-level respectively, you could simply add the prefix 'skilled' in order to further elaborate on the breadth of a character's power.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/9/08/

To be fair, Jounin are supposed to be reserved for A's.



For example, pick one of the nameless genins that failed the chuunin exam at random and you'll likely have a D-rank ninja, whereas the average candidate passing the first two stages of the exam will probably be C-rank, and Genma Shiranui could be considered Jounin/B-rank, whereas Kakashi is a 'Skilled' Jounin/A-rank.

You dont have to put quotantion marks around the skilled, considering Kisame, Kakuzu, Itachi and Deidara all respect the crap out of him, and his databook stats support it, it's save to say that he was.



The only level that requires more shoehorning is the aforementioned S-rank or S-class, which ranges from roughly the Elite Jounin level that Kakashi has shades of at the very lower tier of the spectrum, and steadily rises to pass Monster-tier (Itachi, Jiraiya, Orochimaru), God-tier (Pain, Madara) on its way to its final destination of Eldritch Abomination-Tier (The Sage of Six Paths, purportedly). In conclusion, the letter-based classification system runs out of available letters about four steps too early.

Well we have to consider here. People like the Sannin, let alone Pain and Madara are unique. There very well isn't going to be a mission rating for a mission that might come up once in fifthy years, as such the letters stop at a level of missions, that are dangerous, but you might actually expect to come in. That's how a system works, Itachi, Orochimaru and the lot are so far outside the norm,naturally the system isn't accomedated for them.

When you think S-class shinobi, I don't think you should think "Well, he should at least have some form of immortallity."
Kakashi, with a timespacejutsu, three elements, a thousand jutsu, very good genjutsu and taijutsu, fast and very smart is a lot closer to the kind of shinobi you should have in mind. Hell he's probably a few marks above S rank when you come down to it.

[Tengou]

He was 11, I can't help it if they can't draw young Itachi properly. It was before the timeskip it was 7 years that orochimaru left the Akatsuki, Itachi was 17/18 before the timeskip, it was ten years after the timeskip that he left, Itachi was 21 after the timeskip. If anything he was closer to ten when he massacred the Uchiha.

"Stay on your toes. He became an ANBU-captain at the age of 13." -- Hatake Kakashi, Ch. 142, page 13. (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/142/13/)

'nuff said.


http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/9/08/

To be fair, Jounin are supposed to be reserved for A's.

Alright, granted. It was just an example, as I stated in my former post.


You dont have to put quotantion marks around the skilled, considering Kisame, Kakuzu, Itachi and Deidara all respect the crap out of him, and his databook stats support it, it's save to say that he was.

Those quotation marks weren't meant as a mockery. It's just that 'Skilled Jounin' is not an officially acknowledged title.


Well we have to consider here. People like the Sannin, let alone Pain and Madara are unique. There very well isn't going to be a mission rating for a mission that might come up once in fifthy years, as such the letters stop at a level of missions, that are dangerous, but you might actually expect to come in. That's how a system works, Itachi, Orochimaru and the lot are so far outside the norm,naturally the system isn't accomedated for them.

When you think S-class shinobi, I don't think you should think "Well, he should at least have some form of immortallity."
Kakashi, with a timespacejutsu, three elements, a thousand jutsu, very good genjutsu and taijutsu, fast and very smart is a lot closer to the kind of shinobi you should have in mind. Hell he's probably a few marks above S rank when you come down to it.

Although I think the world of Kakashi, I think he'd be at the very lower end of what constitutes an S-rank shinobi. All his knowledge and skills are excellent, but his lack of stamina and the fact that his best moves are stamina draining as hell don't mix very well. Plus, he would most likely be at a disadvantage to many shinobi that focused themselves on one particular area of the ninpo, like Gai's taijutsu or Itachi's genjutsu.

[RandomShikafan]

Sigh. :p

"Stay on your toes. He became an ANBU-captain at the age of 13." -- Hatake Kakashi, Ch. 142, page 13. (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/142/13/)

one mention vs 4 mention, sorry but if I had to pick between Kakashi's statement and the two akatsuki meetings and databooks I have to guess that the former was a mistake.



Although I think the world of Kakashi, I think he'd be at the very lower end of what constitutes an S-rank shinobi. All his knowledge and skills are excellent, but his lack of stamina and the fact that his best moves are stamina draining as hell don't mix very well. Plus, he would most likely be at a disadvantage to many shinobi that focused themselves on one particular area of the ninpo, like Gai's taijutsu or Itachi's genjutsu.

I think people overbloat Kakashi lack of stamina by a riducoulous amount. During the pain invasion he used summons, four raiton attacks, two doton attacks, split his chakra in half, and used two time/space jutsus. That's when he died. But i don't we've really seen anyone beside Naruto and Sasuke do more then this, who are stated to have above average amounts of chakra. And one weakness isn't really enough to put someone who damn near flawless otherwise at the lower end.

[M3J]

Although I think the world of Kakashi, I think he'd be at the very lower end of what constitutes an S-rank shinobi. All his knowledge and skills are excellent, but his lack of stamina and the fact that his best moves are stamina draining as hell don't mix very well. Plus, he would most likely be at a disadvantage to many shinobi that focused themselves on one particular area of the ninpo, like Gai's taijutsu or Itachi's genjutsu.

Kakashi shouldn't be on lower level. The man knows his weakness and he's worked on improving it. What other ninja do you know has done this? Few minutes of using Sharingan and he was down back in Zabuza arc. Against Pain, he popped two raikiri at least, raikage bunshin, a doton, and two Mangekyou Sharingan. I think even Shikaku voted for Kakashi to be hokage, and it was only Danzo that had a problem. Kakashi is definitely at middle of what constitutes an S-rank shinobi. Despite low chakra, he's still well known almost everywhere.
His taijutsu is still good enough. His genjutsu worked when he's used it. He wouldn't exactly be at a disadvantage, because Gai wouldn't know as much jutsu as Kakashi would. Itachi may nlack in taijutsu where Kakashi wouldn't. Kakashi is intelligent, he could find a way to beat his opponent.
He even took out a Pain body and would have taken out the other if Asura didn't get in the way.

[Tengou]

one mention vs 4 mention, sorry but if I had to pick between Kakashi's statement and the two akatsuki meetings and databooks I have to guess that the former was a mistake.

Actually, the databooks are even more full of incongruities and anachronisms than the manga. I'd rather put stock in Kakashi's canon statement than the supplementary information from any Databook. He's, like you said, an Elite Jounin, who will certainly have had access to municipal and military records concerning information about Itachi after he fled, and that said, the whole village seemed to be taking an interest in the growth of Itachi the genius. He was 13, at the very least. If you want databook-evidence of the falsity of your claim, then I point you to the fact that he awakened his Mangekyou Sharingan at 12, and at least one of the databooks flat-out stated his appointment as ANBU-captain at 13. What's more, Itachi has more than 5 years on Sasuke (him being born in June and Sasuke in July), and we know that Sasuke was at least 7 years old at the time of the massacre (that being the age at which he partially awakened his Sharingan, according to yet another databook entry). If all of these canon bits of information were to match up, Itachi would have had his 13th birthday and his subsequent promotion to ANBU-captain less than a month prior to the Uchiha massacre.


I think people overbloat Kakashi lack of stamina by a riducoulous amount. During the pain invasion he used summons, four raiton attacks, two doton attacks, split his chakra in half, and used two time/space jutsus. That's when he died. But i don't we've really seen anyone beside Naruto and Sasuke do more then this, who are stated to have above average amounts of chakra. And one weakness isn't really enough to put someone who damn near flawless otherwise at the lower end.

There are various degrees of flawlessness, and one character's 5 points in a certain stats is not equal to that of another. If Kakashi was 'near' flawless, he would atleast 'nearly' win every battle he's in, and he didn't. There's only so much that his genius-level intellect can help him resolve when faced with a stronger foe. He's nowhere near flawless, which speaks volumes of the many, many shinobi inferior to him, and the ridiculous strength of many true S-class shinobi.

[RandomShikafan]

Actually, the databooks are even more full of incongruities and anachronisms than the manga. I'd rather put stock in Kakashi's canon statement than the supplementary information from any Databook. He's, like you said, an Elite Jounin, who will certainly have had access to municipal and military records concerning information about Itachi after he fled, and that said, the whole village seemed to be taking an interest in the growth of Itachi the genius.

When I say mistake, I mrean mistake on part of the author. I don't think the character's in universe repuation protects him from this.



He was 13, at the very least. If you want databook-evidence of the falsity of your claim, then I point you to the fact that he awakened his Mangekyou Sharingan at 12, and at least one of the databooks flat-out stated his appointment as ANBU-captain at 13. What's more, Itachi has more than 5 years on Sasuke (him being born in June and Sasuke in July), and we know that Sasuke was at least 7 years old at the time of the massacre (that being the age at which he partially awakened his Sharingan, according to yet another databook entry). If all of these canon bits of information were to match up, Itachi would have had his 13th birthday and his subsequent promotion to ANBU-captain less than a month prior to the Uchiha massacre.

I see your point. That's two sets of corrospondent dates then.

EDIT: Never mind, I looked up a comprehensive storyline that accomadates for everything except for the akatsuki's claim of when Oro left the organisation.



There are various degrees of flawlessness, and one character's 5 points in a certain stats is not equal to that of another. If Kakashi was 'near' flawless, he would atleast 'nearly' win every battle he's in, and he didn't. There's only so much that his genius-level intellect can help him resolve when faced with a stronger foe. He's nowhere near flawless, which speaks volumes of the many, many shinobi inferior to him, and the ridiculous strength of many true S-class shinobi.

That near flawless would guarantee victory is not something I agree with... but he pretty much did. Zabuza, Kakuzu, God Realm, Demon Realm, Deidara he at least nearly won all these fights at certain points. The only ones that never really had anything to worry about are Itachi and Madara. Bringing me back to the point I made earlier. If Kakashi isn't what you'd hope from an S-class shinobi then you'd have to assume that the ninja system made this rank with people that have all five elements, are immortal or completely unbeatable. I mean I imagine the S-rank was made for powerful shinobi but still can refer to people that the shinobi villages have in their employment. The way it is now, the only person that can be called an proper S-rank shinobi, without needed to reguraly kill people and stoop to several highly illegal Kinjutsu is Jiraiya. This can't logically be what they were thinking of they made the S-rank classification.

[iCathyxD]

As you can see, Naruto has returned to Konoha after a few years of training with Jiraya. Naruto has gained more knowledge in fighting.
After a few events happened, Naruto trained at Mount Myobok, training as a Sage. He learned few jutsus to fight Pain.

The real discussion starts here,
What do you think Naruto deserve in his Ninja Rank?

We all know hes a Genin, but what rank would you give
right now after fighting Pain to save Konoha?

For me, I give him a Special Jounin Rank, I think hes in fact, not ready yet to handle the responsibility to run Konoha.

P.S. Please Vote! Thank You :D

[jdw]

As you can see, Naruto has returned to Konoha after a few years of training with Jiraya. Naruto has gained more knowledge in fighting.
After a few events happened, Naruto trained at Mount Myobok, training as a Sage. He learned few jutsus to fight Pain.

The real discussion starts here,
What do you think Naruto deserve in his Ninja Rank?

We all know hes a Genin, but what rank would you give
right now after fighting Pain to save Konoha?

For me, I give him a Special Jounin Rank, I think hes in fact, not ready yet to handle the responsibility to run Konoha.

In terms of fighting ability, without a doubt Naruto can fight with Kages and stand tall. But he has yet to show the ability to lead a team of humans in battle (who are not his own KB's). If Naruto shows that he can lead a team (like Kakashi had team 7, etc.), and deal with risking the lives of others and actual losses based on his commands, then I'd be able to say he is jounin level/Kage ready.

[ur owned foo]

I always thought ninja ranks didn't apply for Naruto. But if they do I'd definitely say between Jonin and Kage. The only thing that separates him from the two is age and maybe a bit more techniques.

[M3J]

I'm not voting as it'd be unfair, but I think Naruto would be more suited to be genin. Don't get me wrong, his skills/power is kage level, but as jdw said... leadership quality is also more important. Only related leadership thing I can see him doing is motivating others. How well can he lead a mission where there's chance of death? What about if someone on his team dies? Naruto's a shrewd planner, but I haven't seen him plan with others that wasn't Sasuke.
Leadership is extremely important, but until he shows more than just ability to inspire, he'll remain genin even if his power surpasses the kage level and even Rikudou Sennin's level.

[Google Hero]

I'm gonna say he is suited at at least a chuunin level. In terms of strength he is Kage level no question, however, as it has been stated, there is more to a kage than strength and that is where Naruto is lacking. He can teach to a degree (as shown with konohamaru and Rasengan), and thugh he hasn't shown anything regarding any leadership qualities he would be somewhat alright considering Kakashi was his teacher he would have learnt the basics of leadership.

If anything, he might even be suited for Sannin level, though that is/was only (as far as we know given to tsunade, jiraiya and orochirmaru

[Oathencrantz]

Sannin is not a rank or level, it's a title and it'll only ever apply to Jiraiya, Orochimaru and Tsunade.

[Xiraiya]

Special Jounin, because it is a rank for those below Jounin with a skill or expertise that is Jounin level or higher.

Naruto could easily be Made Special Jounin especially in times of war, at this stage that rank would suit him best I think.

I typically Regard Sannin as an equivalent of S-Rank or higher, generally because you only have S-rank in Jutsu's and Missing Nin.

[TeamSeven]

Now that he is publicly acknowledged as the Jinchuriki, wouldn't that be how people refer to him? That or sage.

In my opinion Naruto exists outside the ninja rank system now. I think Kishi avoided having him advance in the system past Gennin to illustrate that point.

[Richo]

The jounin generaly go on missions alone hence thats why the rank exists.
Genin work within a 4 man team with 3 genin and 1 jounin.
Chuunin is a team that functions without a jounin but still exists out of 3 or 4 persons.
Jounin are primarily solo when doing missions, they assasinate or capture people since they have proven they have the strenght for it.
If a single jounin is not suitable for the task commonly Anbu will get deployed also as a 3 or 4 man team. Anbu are generaly chuunin or higher with as its leader only a captain.
Naruto would be suitable as special jounin for doing solo missions and even to a degree teaching but no team work missions. If he learns to lead people he could become a kage.


Now that he is publicly acknowledged as the Jinchuriki, wouldn't that be how people refer to him? That or sage.

In my opinion Naruto exists outside the ninja rank system now. I think Kishi avoided having him advance in the system past Gennin to illustrate that point.

on the title part I hope Naruto will gain the sage title since thats how he proven himself uptil now.
I personaly hope naruto will take the chuunin exam or jounin for that matter, it could be quite funny to see naruto "failing" at the theory test again and then beat the crap out of anyone in the combat exam

[SeninNaruto]

While everyone agrees that Naruto's fighting skills is at least jounin level if not Kage, he still needs to build up experience leading a team. And if he wishes to rise up the ladder conventionally, he has to enter the Chuunin exams. I don't see that happening in the near future. We will probably end up seeing naruto directly as a jounin/kage only if there is a timeskip (or at the end of the manga).

[DanielKnoT]

Well, if you all remenber, Sasuke and Naruto are still Genins. They never did the Chuunin exam. So, is kinda ridiculous after we saw Sasuke fighting against all the Kages and Naruto defeating Pain.

They are above of Kage Level

[Oathencrantz]

Above Kage level? Really?

[DanielKnoT]

Yes, why not?? I mean in power.. Is not enough all the figths that we saw from this kids?

And Naruto did something that a Kage does, he protect all the village from Pain, He protect Sakura against Sasuke, Help rescue Gaara, and many other examples..

[TwEeD]

Above Kage level? Really?

I wouldn't put them above it but both have achieved Kage level already powerwise ... Sasuke with killing Danzou (which was, even it was only shortly, Hokage), Naruto with defeating Pain and surpassing (in a way) Yondaime & Jiraiya. Once Naruto has achieved control over his bijuu we can defo say he has the power equivalent of the strongest Kage's.

Both that is of course only in term of raw power...

[Hyuuga_Mugen]

I voted him at Jounin level before reading the posts here, but even after I wouldn't change it.

As far as I'm aware along with other accomplishments you need to have mastered at least 2 chakra elements to be qualified as a Jounin. To date we know that Naruto has mastered
1, Wind element
2. Natural Chakra (A feat comparable only to Jiraiya, a Sannin who is clearly in the Kage plus category)
And is soon to master Kyuubi chakra control. With all this in mind I would say Naruto passes that requirement by technicality.

Also from what we know every one of Narutos techniques is A rank or higher(discarding the pervert jutsus).
Kage Bunchin: A Rank
Rasengan: A Rank
Oodama Rasengan: A/S Rank?
Fuuton: Rasengan: S Rank
Fuuton: Rasenshuriken: S+ Rank
Sage Mode: S Rank
Kyuubi Trans: Forbidden/Unranked
Though I will admit that the ranks for Kyuubi, Sage mode and Oodama have been estimated. Me listing his techs has shown a disadvantage in that he lacks variety. But when u have infinite tries with Kage Bunshin does it really matter?

In terms of his ability to co-operate and managing a team, I'll be the first to admit that he doesn't have a good track record. But even so, we've seen many instances throughout the manga we're he's been referred to by others in the sense of a leader, notably Shikimaru(who is clearly of Jounin level) and more recently Motoi and Bee along with Tenzou. People are drawn to Naruto and I think in his case(especially now with sage mode making him more versatile) he would be a captain or leader that a teammate could rely on. Basically I now see Naruto as the type of ninja who could complete a mission and protect his friends without question. It's not like Naruto can ask Kakashi to let him be captain for the day, it doesn't work like that. He has the ability as well as his newfound maturity and moral, but what he's lacked is the chance to prove it. Like I've said in other threads I think we'll see the embodiment of "the gutsy ninja" once Naruto masters Kyuubi control, and with a War at hand there'll be plenty of opportunity to prove his worth, not just offensively but strategically aswell.

The fact is that even when Naruto let's his emotions drive him he still ends up doing the right thing. So morally, he's the best leader around.

Naruto is Kage level but his struggle with Sasuke prohibits him taking that mantle for the near future. He can protect the village, managing a village is a different story.

[THM Nindo]

I think he's ready to be Kage.
He's as suit as Tsunade.

You know... people are saying that Naruto is not ready to be Kage because he let his emotion take over, and stuff like that...
But, so far, Tsunade has been doing the same thing.

We already know that people in the village are talking about Naruto being Hokage, so that means that they aknowledge him enough for that.
If he got the respect of the village, and of the other Jounin, and even from other Kages (Gaara comes to mind, but I think he got the respect of Raikage too), he's suit to be Kage.

And with Sage Mode and Kyubbi control, he will be not only the strongest of the village (by far), but also a lot wiser and in control of his emotions (just think of how calm he was, even after he learned that Kakashi died against Pain).

[Eddy01741]

THe 5 nations are currently at war with Madara (like officially, from what happened at the summit). Since it is wartime, I could easily see Naruto being a jounin.

Think of it this way, Kakashi in the gaiden was a jounin, he was both weaker and less capable of leading (oh, you guys stay back while I use my untested jutsu (chidori) on an enemy jounin, oh, and your teammate rin, we can leave her behind to be tortured for our secrets, no big deal) than naruto is now.

[benelori]

I think Jounin should do it...battle ability certainly qualifies him for that, in terms of leadership I think he can do it...basically leadership is about tactics and teamwork which Naruto demonstrated that he has...I think he's really evolved, but not Kage...leading a a village requires diplomacy skills as well, and yes he showed some diplomacy against pain, but that thing needs to be developed and it only comes with exp...so jounin

[DanielKnoT]

Now that I think, Naruto is still a Genin.. Could he qualify or available to be chosen as hokage? that would be against the Rules?

With the exception of Hashirama and Tobirama, previous Hokages were Jounins first..

[Google Hero]

Sannin is not a rank or level, it's a title and it'll only ever apply to Jiraiya, Orochimaru and Tsunade.

yes I did state that, but it was still a given position to those three in commemoration of their strength by Hanzou. Now granted Hanzou is dead, there would have to be others who could assign that title to Shinobi who have proven their prowess in combat, which Naruto has done by defeating pain who in turn had previously defeated Hanzou.

it is not a direct rank but it is still a title that holds strength and meaning within the Naruto world

[OdaForPresident]

doesn't 'san' in sannin mean three? if there's going to be new sannin then there would also have to be three. maybe if sasuke ever becomes good again he, naruto and sakura could be the new sannin. unless that happens, I don't think that title will ever be handed out again.

[Hojinmaru]

His rank has always been Genin. You could also say he is a Senin or Sage, but he still needs to complete the required tests and missions to up his rank and move towards the Hokage position. Gaara was said to have gone back to the sand village after his battle with Naruto and worked hard to become Hokage. They didn't just hand it to him and he was extremely powerful. At best, like someone else said, he is like the villages champion or avatar at the moment. He may not have the rank but he is one of the leafs strongest fighters.

Being a Sannin has nothing to do with rank in the world of shinobi, it was an honorific title given to Oro/Jman/Tsu for putting up a good fight against the Mizukage, nothing more.

[THM Nindo]

His rank has always been Genin. You could also say he is a Senin or Sage, but he still needs to complete the required tests and missions to up his rank and move towards the Hokage position. Gaara was said to have gone back to the sand village after his battle with Naruto and worked hard to become Hokage. They didn't just hand it to him and he was extremely powerful. At best, like someone else said, he is like the villages champion or avatar at the moment. He may not have the rank but he is one of the leafs strongest fighters.

Being a Sannin has nothing to do with rank in the world of shinobi, it was an honorific title given to Oro/Jman/Tsu for putting up a good fight against the Mizukage, nothing more.

...No
Naruto won't have to pass those test...

He beat the fuck up of Pain...
No one will even dare tell him to pass this freaking test...

Although, it would be really really funny to see Sage Mode Naruto with Kyubbi control going against Genin in a test!!! :tem
He might actually manage to fail it, since the first pass is a regular knowledge test :tem

[mars0103]

I think that naruto is a special jonin. Their are ninja's that have a special ability naruto has a special ability in serveral areas, sage combat expert. Due to narutos lack of experiece in team work even though he has been a good motervation speaker since part 1 (chunin exam part 1). He is also training konaharumaru aswel. I want naruto to do the chunin exam again or get a special promotion because its unfair to the genin. mybe have a exabition match against some jonin my the exam it self that would be fun to watch.

[anrufen]

Offensive Fighting wise, easily S-class (btw, i believe S-classes are the power level ceiling...after that there isnt a ceiling...S-classes are Eligible to be Hokage, maybe through politics, maybe through necessity of the village for experience, or through sheer comparison of overall prowess! So it isnt cardinal that the Kage is the village strongest Ninja as they may have gained the position through from all the other reasons other than the last. Ergo there isnt a definitive level called Kage...offtopic)! But he lacks some important qualities of a Hokage: xperience, a certain level of maturity to lead a whole village run on Martial law (i guess :P) and I guess his jutsu variety is limited! He doesnt yet know fuin jutsus! A ninja may be categorized in classes depending on their fighting prowess, until special jonin level, but after that, its imperative the ninja builds the before mentioned skills!

Naruto is easily Special Jonin level. But not S-class, or as we most say Kage level!

[Jessie]

leading a a village requires diplomacy skills as well, and yes he showed some diplomacy against pain, but that thing needs to be developed and it only comes with exp...so jounin
He never has to be an expert in those areas. We just recently saw a Kage meeting with Tsunade and she relied on the opinion of Shikamaru's dad to diffuse a potential diplomatic problem. Being a great leader means recognizing you don't have all the answers, and having talented people around that you can rely on for advice. One of the greatest skills a leader can have is being a great delegator.

Shikamaru is obviously being groomed by Kishimoto to be Naruto's chief adviser/strategist/tactician/right hand man. If Naruto's weakness is his intelligence, then Shikamaru makes up for that. He also has Sakura, who despite recent evidence to the contrary, showed she has a good head on her shoulders in the past and can work with Naruto. And Kakashi and Tsunade should still be around to help him.

[Alterno]

I voted him at Jounin level before reading the posts here, but even after I wouldn't change it.

We are not talking about level (Class), we are talking about Rank!.



As far as I'm aware along with other accomplishments you need to have mastered at least 2 chakra elements to be qualified as a Jounin.


Nope, Kakashi just said that most of the Jounin can use 2 or more elements.



To date we know that Naruto has mastered
1, Wind element
2. Natural Chakra (A feat comparable only to Jiraiya, a Sannin who is clearly in the Kage plus category)
And is soon to master Kyuubi chakra control. With all this in mind I would say Naruto passes that requirement by technicality.

Also from what we know every one of Narutos techniques is A rank or higher(discarding the pervert jutsus).
Kage Bunchin: A Rank
Rasengan: A Rank
Oodama Rasengan: A/S Rank?
Fuuton: Rasengan: S Rank
Fuuton: Rasenshuriken: S+ Rank
Sage Mode: S Rank
Kyuubi Trans: Forbidden/Unranked


Kagebunshin: B Rank
Rasengan: A: Rank
Fuuton Rasengan: A Rank
Fuuton Rasenshurinken: S Rank
Sage mode: nr (not ranked).
Ōdama Rasengan: A
Cho Ōdama Rasengan: S

Ōdama Rasengan = Ultimate or Gargantua Rasengan, just translated cooler by the friends of sleepy fans and Blinktopia. :P



Though I will admit that the ranks for Kyuubi, Sage mode and Oodama have been estimated. Me listing his techs has shown a disadvantage in that he lacks variety. But when u have infinite tries with Kage Bunshin does it really matter?

Yes it matters.



In terms of his ability to co-operate and managing a team, I'll be the first to admit that he doesn't have a good track record. But even so, we've seen many instances throughout the manga we're he's been referred to by others in the sense of a leader, notably Shikimaru(who is clearly of Jounin level) and more recently Motoi and Bee along with Tenzou. People are drawn to Naruto and I think in his case(especially now with sage mode making him more versatile) he would be a captain or leader that a teammate could rely on.

Naruto is strong, really strong. That makes him a reliable strength for his teammates. The problme is that Chounins, Jounins and Kages are leaders, Naruto have proven that he have the strength to protect people, but he still needs to prove that he can work as part of a team beyond reasonable doubt, beyond what he did following Kakashi's order when they were fighting Itachi.

The biggest difference is Between him and Shikamaru for example, is that Shikamaru had a plan and involved everyone in his team on that plan. Naruto is being written as selfish solo fighter, with Sasuke weakened they had a chance to knock him out and bring him back to the village, of course Kishimoto decided to write in another way, however it remains as truth that he still need to learn how to involve his team.



Basically I now see Naruto as the type of ninja who could complete a mission and protect his friends without question. It's not like Naruto can ask Kakashi to let him be captain for the day, it doesn't work like that. He has the ability as well as his newfound maturity and moral, but what he's lacked is the chance to prove it. Like I've said in other threads I think we'll see the embodiment of "the gutsy ninja" once Naruto masters Kyuubi control, and with a War at hand there'll be plenty of opportunity to prove his worth, not just offensively but strategically as well.

I agree on the first sentence, but not on the rest. Naruto had several opportunities to prove that he can be leader by being a good follower or involving his team mates, his decisions are not driven to protect the rest of the people, right no they are driven to not have to protect them while fighting or not getting the rest of the people involved. which is the difference between him and other Kages like Hiruzen, Toribama, Hashirama and Tsunade.




The fact is that even when Naruto let's his emotions drive him he still ends up doing the right thing. So morally, he's the best leader around.

Naruto is Kage level but his struggle with Sasuke prohibits him taking that mantle for the near future. He can protect the village, managing a village is a different story.

Theres not such thing as Kage level, the only level (classes) are E, D, C, B, A and S, like with the jutsus. And when Naruto let's his emotion drive him it could also lead to hurting friends check what he did to Gaara in the snow country or losing control over the Kyuubi.

If you ask @ what Class (level) Naruto belong to as shinobi, right now he is a Class S shinobi, but he still not Chounin material, but it doesn't matter if you are material for chounin or not when you can kick most of the higher ranked shinobi's ass. :{

[leo81202]

I have to agree with the coments about Naruto's questionable leadership abilites. While his skill does make him at least an S-rank, I don't know if I could trust him to lead a team where dieing is a high possibilty. While he did remain mostly calm during his fight with pain, I'd still be hesistant about having him leading a team.

I hope Kishi does do an arch with naruto taking the chunnin exam, that would be a good and funny read. While great genin do exist (sasuke, Gaara), I greatly doubt that any would be able to beat naruto unless naruto handicapped himself

[THM Nindo]

I have to agree with the coments about Naruto's questionable leadership abilites. While his skill does make him at least an S-rank, I don't know if I could trust him to lead a team where dieing is a high possibilty. While he did remain mostly calm during his fight with pain, I'd still be hesistant about having him leading a team.

I hope Kishi does do an arch with naruto taking the chunnin exam, that would be a good and funny read. While great genin do exist (sasuke, Gaara), I greatly doubt that any would be able to beat naruto unless naruto handicapped himself

Naruto is greatly underestimated by everyone...
He's a great leader.

For proof, people as great as Tsunade and Kakashi actually go with whatever Naruto says because they believe in him.

He already has the village behind him.

And you saw that even when he take a decision that seem questionable (like when he told Inoichi to leave him alone with Nagato), the most skilled Jonins actually obeyed his command.

Naruto is already a great leader.
His only flaw (and it actually can be his greatest quality) is that he still believe...

[Giga_Gaia]

Well, you know he is above Chuunin level, since if he did retake the exam in his current state, he would probably be much stronger then the rest of the candidates (if the candidates are the same level as when Naruto did his exam).

[chilibun]

There really shouldn't be an argument here. Naruto has never passed the chuunin exams and so his official rank is still a genin. He still has to follow the orders of chuunins and jounins if he follows the chain of command.

That said, Naruto operates outside of the military ranks because he can do whatever he wants and nobody can stop him. He is also more influential than most jounins because he is a jinchuuriki and has saved the village from destruction.

Now, if the question is where would Naruto rank if he is to go through all the examinations, he would probably be placed in the mid to high-jounin level (somewhere around Yamato, below Kakashi and Gai and above all the fodder jounins). Naruto has Kage-level power but his leadership skills are still questionable. He is still too emotional and impulsive imo. He is also too naive and idealistic to make a great jounin much less a Hokage. Sometimes, you have to get your hands dirty to accomplish your goals.

[anrufen]

I have to agree with the coments about Naruto's questionable leadership abilites. While his skill does make him at least an S-rank, I don't know if I could trust him to lead a team where dieing is a high possibilty. While he did remain mostly calm during his fight with pain, I'd still be hesistant about having him leading a team.

I hope Kishi does do an arch with naruto taking the chunnin exam, that would be a good and funny read. While great genin do exist (sasuke, Gaara), I greatly doubt that any would be able to beat naruto unless naruto handicapped himself

Lol..that WOULD be a funny arc...I guess they can end it in an issue or 2! But I guess after saving the village, he was given honorary jounin position! Who knows right? Rankings dont seem as important as it was bak in the days!

[M3J]

Naruto is greatly underestimated by everyone...
He's a great leader.

For proof, people as great as Tsunade and Kakashi actually go with whatever Naruto says because they believe in him.

He already has the village behind him.

And you saw that even when he take a decision that seem questionable (like when he told Inoichi to leave him alone with Nagato), the most skilled Jonins actually obeyed his command.

Naruto is already a great leader.
His only flaw (and it actually can be his greatest quality) is that he still believe...

He inspires and motivates others to fight and to listen to him, but what about planning? Shikamaru, back in Rescue Sasuke arc, came with with a plan to maximize their chances of survival. He was continuously planning and finding ways to survive, which helped the team out. Example is when he found out the weak area in Jirobou's jutsu that trapped them. Can Naruto do the same?
I'm not saying Naruto can't plan, but we've seen him plan mostly for himself. He hasn't shown much teamwork apart from being in Team 7 with Sasuke. If he can't do that much, can he really be a leader and plan for his team? Even if he can inspire his team to find a way to destroy a country, he has to plan how to do it otherwise it'll most likely be a failure.

To me, this is the main thing holding me back from considering Naruto as worthy of chuunin title.

[Rikudou King]

As many have said, Naruto lacks any leadership abilities. He can come up with ways to use his own abilities, But he has yet to show that he can do that for his teammates. Like during the fight with Pain, Where he pretty much just sent the Toads off to do their own thing even though he was basically in charged of them.

Anyway, I would go with Special Jounin, I think that would fight him best. That way he would still be extremely useful, But without the leadership responsibilities.

[Hyuuga_Mugen]

We are not talking about level (Class), we are talking about Rank!.

Nope, Kakashi just said that most of the Jounin can use 2 or more elements.

Kagebunshin: B Rank
Rasengan: A: Rank
Fuuton Rasengan: A Rank
Fuuton Rasenshurinken: S Rank
Sage mode: nr (not ranked).
Ōdama Rasengan: A
Cho Ōdama Rasengan: S

Ōdama Rasengan = Ultimate or Gargantua Rasengan, just translated cooler by the friends of sleepy fans and Blinktopia. :P


Yes it matters.

Naruto is strong, really strong. That makes him a reliable strength for his teammates. The problme is that Chounins, Jounins and Kages are leaders, Naruto have proven that he have the strength to protect people, but he still needs to prove that he can work as part of a team beyond reasonable doubt, beyond what he did following Kakashi's order when they were fighting Itachi.

The biggest difference is Between him and Shikamaru for example, is that Shikamaru had a plan and involved everyone in his team on that plan. Naruto is being written as selfish solo fighter, with Sasuke weakened they had a chance to knock him out and bring him back to the village, of course Kishimoto decided to write in another way, however it remains as truth that he still need to learn how to involve his team.

I agree on the first sentence, but not on the rest. Naruto had several opportunities to prove that he can be leader by being a good follower or involving his team mates, his decisions are not driven to protect the rest of the people, right no they are driven to not have to protect them while fighting or not getting the rest of the people involved. which is the difference between him and other Kages like Hiruzen, Toribama, Hashirama and Tsunade.


Theres not such thing as Kage level, the only level (classes) are E, D, C, B, A and S, like with the jutsus. And when Naruto let's his emotion drive him it could also lead to hurting friends check what he did to Gaara in the snow country or losing control over the Kyuubi.

If you ask @ what Class (level) Naruto belong to as shinobi, right now he is a Class S shinobi, but he still not Chounin material, but it doesn't matter if you are material for chounin or not when you can kick most of the higher ranked shinobi's ass. :{

This isn't directly related at yourself but I'm getting a bit tired of all the moaners crying over the use of the phrase Kage level. I'm using Kage Level in my own words to describe a level of skill. It isn't as though you don't know what I'm talking about, so why be a bitch? I'm quite aware what ranks are, I'm using the phrase kage level so people don't misundertand I'm saying he is of the same rank of a Kage, S.

I'd disagree with the Ranks you disclosed (I know mine aren't exactly accurate, haven't found a databook)it's seems quite unlikely that Fuuton: Rasengan would share it's rank with rasengan. It should be up one rank purely for combining nature and shape manipulation at their highest respective levels. I did make a mistake with Kage bunshin, I was brainwashed by anime that it's a jounin class technique, so i saw it as A rather than B.
As for RS Kakashi said it's likely beyond S-Class so i'll stick with him :D.

I guess you and I just have different perspectives. I would like to think that since he has conquered his own hatred, he would become more rational.

Can't remember who posted this but someone brang up a good point with a comparison to kakashis first mission as a Jounin, everybody here is just like Kakashi at that point. You're all rule followers. Kakashi as Jounin made fails so bad it resulted in the death of a teammate. So say we now swapped chibi Kakashi with chibi Naruto I would ask you all to question wether Obito would still be alive or not. If Naruto is to change the Ninja world he needs to start with that concept "those who fail to protect their comrades are worse than trash". He understands that more than anyone. He may not qualify to be a Jounin or a Kage, but if he went via the normal route it wouldn't be at all different to those who came before him. It wouldn't be a true revolution.

[Hojinmaru]

Right now, Narutos plan for 90% of his actions is to charge in using varying formations fo KB's. He has only been shown one time using team work to acomplish anything and that was to save Kakashi from a waterprision by Zabuza. I think you could classify him as a Special Jounin as a powerhouse, but as a well rounded shinobi he has a long ways to go, which he has been moving towards, but still needs more training. He's not even completely clear on how chakra works and all the different schools of chakra manipulation like yin/yang and seals. This is something I true jounin would have at least a rudimentary level of skill in