The Rasengan Mega-Convo

[Zeus-Tails]

All I know is that thing was friggin huge and he made it in like 2 seconds. Seriously, I don't think Orochimaru would have any chance against J-Man if they fought to the death

[eroda]

well i beleive that its not ultimate in terms of completion ultimate interms of maximum power and spin, basically just a big ass owerful normal rasengan, but narutos rasengan would chop through it because of winds chakara nature is to continually become sharper untill it can cut through anything. but meh

[Rahan]

Jiraiya never said anyting about like that.
As far as I remember, the Odama Rasengan flashback was anime filler only (and you know how much they understand the manga when they make J-man (the one for whom the best criteria to judge the level of a ninja is "guts") say to "give up" when you are caught in a genjutsu) and he didn't comment the elemental rasengan.

And yeah this topic will be closed, so I won't discuss what happened in this chapter.

[ElToroDelDiablo]

I think, Jiraya only changed the size or amount of chakra in the Rasengan. But Naruto did a nature manipulation with it, he added wind to his rasengan.

[ShadowStrike]

i was hoping jiraiya had some other techniques than mega rasengan, and not turn into a frog himself (we've already seen that with orochi).

[DarkManSharingan32]

That huge Rasengan is easily stopped by Rashoumon...
Or pretty much any evasive technique.

Orochimaru, who has some pretty amazing speed himself... I don't think would be cause by such a jutsu.

My question is...
What happens if that thing doesn't connect?
---

In reguards to the actual technique...
Jiraiya told Naruto to upgrade his Rasengan's strength... and he did, with the Oodama. I think it's amazingly impressive that Jiraiya made that the CORRECT way....

That is some AMAZING control of chakra right there.

But the completion of the technique is to the Elemental aspect... And that is what is meant by Kakashi and others.
---

[Alterno]

Actually the part where Jiraiya tells naruto to upgrade his rasengan to avoid it being blocked was a right decision of the anime team, probably after asking Kishimoto about Oodama Ransenga or asking his advices, which seems to happen frenquently. I tend to give credit to the anime team because most of the die hard fans of the manga tends to blame them for everything they dislike about the anime.

I really like Jiraiya adpoting the aspect of a frog, really cool.

[Rahan]

Actually the part where Jiraiya tells naruto to upgrade his rasengan to avoid it being blocked was a right decision of the anime team, probably after asking Kishimoto about Oodama Ransenga or asking his advices, which seems to happen frenquently. I tend to give credit to the anime team because most of the die hard fans of the manga tends to blame them for everything they dislike about the anime.

I really like Jiraiya adpoting the aspect of a frog, really cool.

but Oodama is not that much bigger than a regular Rasengan (I mean, the sphere, not the explosion) and the inconvenience due to the required extra clone while manipulating the thing totally cancels the supposed benefit in chance to hit the opponent. If OR was that giant rasengan Jiraiya just did, I could have bought the anime's explaination, but not there. One taijutsu lesson to learn how to effectively hit with Rasengan would have been 100 times more useful than a bigger Rasengan.

But now, Naruto carried FRS with one hand, so I guess he'll carry Odama Rasengan with one hand too now (and maybe finally create ordinary Rasengan without clones).
[hr]

i was hoping jiraiya had some other techniques than mega rasengan, and not turn into a frog himself (we've already seen that with orochi).

I think it was to be expected. In the kaubki play "the Tale of the Gallant Jiraiya", Jiraiya, Tsunade and Orochimaru use "frog magic", "slug magic" and "snake magic". Sure it could have been only the summons, but it's was easy to predict what kind of jutsus they would use.

[Ripht]

Ah but maybe the reason it was sooooo big was because he had the 2 frogs injecting chakra into it as well, which would mean he has 6 arms to do jutsu's with.
So that would mean that he could techniqually use all 6 elements at the same time as well 0.o!!!!!!

[big_p]

I think it was to be expected. In the kaubki play "the Tale of the Gallant Jiraiya", Jiraiya, Tsunade and Orochimaru use "frog magic", "slug magic" and "snake magic". Sure it could have been only the summons, but it's was easy to predict what kind of jutsus they would use.

As i read this, I cannot help but think how horrid and disturbing Tsunade's Slug Sennin Mode, or whatever it would be called,( though i highly doubt it would happen) would look.

[Superlag]

but Oodama is not that much bigger than a regular Rasengan (I mean, the sphere, not the explosion) and the inconvenience due to the required extra clone while manipulating the thing totally cancels the supposed benefit in chance to hit the opponent. If OR was that giant rasengan Jiraiya just did, I could have bought the anime's explaination, but not there. One taijutsu lesson to learn how to effectively hit with Rasengan would have been 100 times more useful than a bigger Rasengan.

But now, Naruto carried FRS with one hand, so I guess he'll carry Odama Rasengan with one hand too now (and maybe finally create ordinary Rasengan without clones).

I don't see why the oodama rasengan makes it easier to connect, its just the same as the rasengan, only a little bigger, just a tiny bit. Naruto couldn't hit Itachi with that if it wasn't for kakashi's clone holding him. Maybe i'm just getting bored of the same kagebunshin & rasengan all the time. Naruto has to learn how to use rasengan with only one hand. and hopefully use new jitsus.

I think Naruto could not learn how to use Ultimate Rasengan. he couldn't even create a basic rasengan with one hand.

[Karma]

I don't think Ultimate rasengan is better than Naruto FRS Jutsu... Because at this moment.. naruto FRS is 50%.. once its %100.. there might be no one in the manga can stop that hit....

[Decorus]

Oodama doesn't need to hit the target at all, Naruto can detonate it creating a massive blast, all Naruto has to do is have his target somewhere near and the blast radius will catch his target.

[Ruissu]

naruto odama is a smal version of big ass rasengan of the perv jiraya... i think its just about thecnic... prob, naruto could do the same type os rasengan if he tried

[samsiufan]

I don't think Ultimate rasengan is better than Naruto FRS Jutsu... Because at this moment.. naruto FRS is 50%.. once its %100.. there might be no one in the manga can stop that hit....

I agree and I will go as far saying that the 50% FRS is stronger and more potent than the ultimate rasengan..I will like to see whether fatty Pain can absorb the 50% FRS...:p

For me Naruto has already got a stronger rasengan in FRS...But I also think Naruto could develop the ultimate rasengan as well of he wanted to...The rasengan is Naruto's specialty...he has taken that over and as someone already stated, Odama rasengan is a smaller version of the ultimate rasengan...:D

[Ripht]

I think odama rasengan is more powerful, because its more concentrated, hence why he needs a clone to keep is contained, if he did it by himself it would probably be like the ultimate rasengan but because its smaller it will pack more of a punch.

[ChuckinUpDueces]

Funny how the teacher is using his students technique in battle lol so far Both Jiraiya and Sandaime have used the 4th's techniques to fight against.....their former students. What a guy the 4th must have been creating jutsu's even his predecessors took the time to learn.

[Ripht]

Well he was a genius and one of the strongest ninja's in konoha history. I would use his techniques if i was them cos they were darn powerful.

[Decorus]

Rasengan is an amazing jutsu that only a limited number of elite ninja could ever learn. It requires no seals, can cut through solid material with ease and its destructive force can be varied depending on the users desires. Also it can be used to deflect or neutralize other jutsu attacks making it both offensive and defensive in nature. Is it any wonder why Naruto doesn't bother learning other attack jutsu?

[The Boff]

i cant believe that i am actually about to post in the naruto forums... but none the less i want my opinion heard.

Rasengan is killing the manga.

i mean it. i used to be one of the biggest narutards on the planet. when i started this manga i was flabbergasted, overwhelmed, overgasped and basicly it was just the coolest thing ive ever seen read heard in my entire life.
and one of the biggest reasons to why i loved this story was all the DIFFERENT things.
you had summons and jutsus and genjutsus and taijutsus and ninjutsu and characters with cool bloodlines and shadow jutsus and guys that were born without ability to make ninjutsus so they trained like hell in taijutsu and released gates and guys with sandmonsters in them and the list goes on.

it was basicly the coolest fucking thing ive ever came across.

but then 2 things happened. naruto learnt the rasengan and sasuke managed to go against the essence of the story.

but the sasuke thing is not relevant here so ill keep this about the rasengan.

when we were first introduced to rasengan it was so hyped by kishi it was unbelivable.
There was supposedly only 2 people that had managed to do it. Jiraya and the fourth.
and the fourth was the creator of it. and he was basicly a god with jutsu, we know that. and rasengan was at the top of the jutsu kickass list apparently an s-class jutsu and all that. very VERY over hyped.
and lo and behold, Naruto managed to get it right and it was awesome.

but why, oh why couldnt this jutsu be an ace in the sleeve?
the thing you take out to end things with. not the first jutsu you use at any given time against any opponent. its always rasengan.

and THEN came the Oodama Rasengan. a bigger Ras that did the EXACT same thing. absolutely no difference at all, only a bigger explosion. point blank hit and then BOOOOOM.
but what came after that? the Fuuton Rasen Shuriken! omg! this just has to be a new thing that just shares the name right? probably some kind of shuriken so it can be used from a distance, right? NOPE! point blank hit and then a big ass BOOOOOOM.
.... dissapointing to say the least.

and NOW we have the Jiraya man the dude, el duderino, the big cheese, perverted king of happiness.
he enters Sennin mode, pretty cool, now he's probably gonna show us some new stuff right? probably some waterjutsus considering that there are 2 frogs on his shoulders. and when we saw gamabunta fight he shot big ass waterballs so its probably gonna be some cool ass jutsus coming up, new stuff oh yeah! bring it on!!!

......................

Ultimate Rasengan...

The dude is now apparently in his most powerful mode and has 2 friggin frogs on his shoulders and so on and so forth but does anything new and exciting happen? nope.
a rasengan comes out. its just the biggest one we've seen so far. and its a point blank hit jutsu that most probably goes BOOOOOM when it hits.
nothing new, nothing cool, nothing at all.
just a bigger rasengan. thats it.
so whats the next step? a fuuton rasengan in that size? maybe instead of making rasengan in your hand you make it from your feet and kick it into people? or maybe a weapon that makes rasengans? like a bazooka that shoots them at the enemy?
i dont care anymore... the thing i loved with this manga was the multitude of DIFFERENT jutsus and the characters moving on and doing new things. but that is a thing from the past, now its just Rasengan Rasengan Rasengan...

so to me, Rasengan is killing the manga.

later dudes/dudettes

BEST GOD DAMN POST IN A WHILE!

[Gold Knight]

Yeah, I have to say that all the Rasengan scenes does tend to make it seem as if Kishimoto is just running out of ideas - also makes it obvious he was certainly a fan of DBZ. It seems as though Kishimoto wants the Rasengan to be comparative to Goku's Kamehameha.

I do wish Kishimoto would just move away from the Rasengan and have Naruto display other ninjutsu that he could have learned over the time skip. Not to mention keeping Jiraiya from depending on it in a critical fight. Although, I think Kishimoto was just trying to show, in one scene, the difference in concentration and strength between Naruto and Jiraiya right now. Of course Jiraiya would have far more experience so he would have been able to polish up the attack more.

I wonder just how powerful Yondaime was with it?

But there's more to the Naruto manga than just the fights. (Or at least used to be.) But I agree, the Rasengan is getting as tiresome as the Sharingan.

[kaylee]

I'd argue that the Rasengan isn't killing Naruto the manga, but is killing Naruto the character (or, killing his development as a shinobi anyway). Boff, you're right that Naruto always resorts to that jutsu, and it's frustrating as hell to never see anything new from him. It's disappointing, sure, but I've rationalized it away by telling myself that Naruto's just not that kind of fighter. He may be tricky or surprising in fights, but we'll never see him use a multitude of jutsus, unlike Sasuke, who at least will use different forms for his lightning jutsus.

And as for the Rasengan itself, you're right -- it's completely lost the luster it had when it was first introduced. It took a step down with the introduction of the Oodama, and another when Kakashi casually revealed that he could use Rasengan too. But, well, that's to be expected after so many chapters. We'd be disappointed if Naruto didn't improve it, and we'd be disappointed if he gave up his signature move too... but it's too bad he can't improve it in more creative ways, or at least supplement it with other jutsus.

Regarding Jiraiya's "ultimate" rasengan, I admit, I was really disappointed when I saw it too. It just generated absolutely no excitement. But I think the point of it was just to show how amazing the fat clone's absorption powers were. I mean, we already know how much damage the normal Rasengan can cause, so if that clone could absorb something that oversized, it means he's extremely powerful. But still. Lame.

[Decorus]

The problem is simple you are looking at it from the wrong angle. Instead of being upset about how Naruto doesn't use dozens of jutsu ask yourself this question.

Does Naruto need any other jutsu?

Naruto can already do everything he needs with only a few jutsu that other characters require.

I can count on two hands the number of Rasengan's Naruto has used in the entire Manga.

He has used his Oodama Rasengan precisely once.

He has used Fuuton Rasengan twice once in a flashback.

He has used Fuuton Rasenshuriken twice and only on the same target.

He has not had a real fight since the first half of the manga.

If anything is killing the manga its the fact that Naruto has turned into a supporting character in his own manga.

[ChuckinUpDueces]

The problem is simple you are looking at it from the wrong angle. Instead of being upset about how Naruto doesn't use dozens of jutsu ask yourself this question.

Does Naruto need any other jutsu?

Naruto can already do everything he needs with only a few jutsu that other characters require.

I can count on two hands the number of Rasengan's Naruto has used in the entire Manga.

He has used his Oodama Rasengan precisely once.

He has used Fuuton Rasengan twice once in a flashback.

He has used Fuuton Rasenshuriken twice and only on the same target.

He has not had a real fight since the first half of the manga.

If anything is killing the manga its the fact that Naruto has turned into a supporting character in his own manga.

I agree, overall, the anime prolly makes it seem like it's an overused jutsu.

If you can get up close and personal, a blade of wind, a kusunagi sword, raikiri/chidori or a rasengan have proven to be the best weapons to unleash on ur opponent. Unless you have masks on ur back like Kakuzu or frogs on ur shoulders like Jiraiya. Then a solid mouth jutsu does the trick.

[marte1980]

If anything is killing the manga its the fact that Naruto has turned into a supporting character in his own manga.
I completely agree. The real problem is that, as he once stated, the manga author's favourite character is Sasuke, so he's just giving more and more parts of the plot to him.

[KyleUchiha]

Jiraiya's Ultimate was Rasengan was cool, but when it is that large, I can't help but think Spirit Bomb. Seeing other people using possibly better versions of what Naruto uses just takes away from his battles. He may not get to use it that much in Part 2, but when he does from now on, it doesn't seem as interesting. But I believe when we see Naruto's 100% Rasenshuriken, it will more visibly trump's Jiraiya's Ultimate rasengan and I think it will have new properties that allow him new ways of fighting which may satisfy the ones wishing for Naruto to have different strategies. Or at least I'm hoping.

I am curious whether or not Naruto knew Jiraiya was capable of producing the Ultimate Rasengan. One would naturally think so, since they were teacher and student and were together for so long, but you never know.

[Decorus]

Jiraiya is not capable of using his Ultimate Rasengan, its a jutsu he can only use while in his Hermit Form. Since Jiraiya can't use his Hermit Form without help from the two frogs it really does not matter if its better or worse then Naruto's Oodama Rasengan. Since Naruto needs 1 other clone to create Oodama and Jiraiya needs 2 frogs and a Transformation to use his Ultimate Rasengan.

The Fuuton Rasenshuriken is essentially finished its the delivery system that needs work. The jutsu itself will not change in appearance. What Naruto needs to complete the jutsu is a way of using it without seriously injuring himself and the ability to maintain the jutsu for more then a few seconds. Now if he were to suddenly learn another of his father's jutsu then it wouldn't matter anymore and could be considered completed.

[DarkManSharingan32]

Jiraiya is not capable of using his Ultimate Rasengan, its a jutsu he can only use while in his Hermit Form. Since Jiraiya can't use his Hermit Form without help from the two frogs it really does not matter if its better or worse then Naruto's Oodama Rasengan. Since Naruto needs 1 other clone to create Oodama and Jiraiya needs 2 frogs and a Transformation to use his Ultimate Rasengan.

The Fuuton Rasenshuriken is essentially finished its the delivery system that needs work. The jutsu itself will not change in appearance. What Naruto needs to complete the jutsu is a way of using it without seriously injuring himself and the ability to maintain the jutsu for more then a few seconds. Now if he were to suddenly learn another of his father's jutsu then it wouldn't matter anymore and could be considered completed.

You're right...
What Naruto needs right now is ANOTHER cookie-cut jutsu for him to copy with his determination. :(


I on the other hand would like to see a bit more creativity and jutsu creation from kid-Naruto. Maybe ways to inhibit his opponents movements with his newfound wind-element mastery.

SOMETHING new... anything new...

[Decorus]

Yeap I got to agree Naruto does need a few more of his Father's jutsu who knows he may already know them....

[Razh]

I agree on the most things up there.
I for one, would like for Naruto (manga) to have more taijutsu oriented fights. They are ninjas after all, damm it. I want some punches, kicks, throws, dodgings (anime episode in which Lee fought Kimimaro is a nice example). Not that it should be like that. Just it should be more about taijutsu. Especially from a main character. That's how I would like it, anyway.

And one thing. It bothers me that Kakashi was sort of tremendously weakened since the beginning of Shippuuden. For someone who is called "copy ninja" he sure doesn't use too many jutsus.
And if he knew Rasengan all the time, why the hell is he always using that Chidori?

[DarkManSharingan32]

And if he knew Rasengan all the time, why the hell is he always using that Chidori?

Because it's a high speed assassination technique... and with the Sharingan it's nearly un-counterable.

The Rasengan is alot slower paced, and as such the deliver system is just as slow.
---

It's a matter of preference... speed over raw power.
...

That, and the name is about 100x cooler. lol

[Razh]

He could run fast with Rasengan just the same. And I didn't ask that question because I wanted to know the answer. It was just out of frustration. After all, he has probably used it dozens of times before. Only we haven't seen it. It would be too weird for someone who can use it so easilly not to use it when he wants to defeat someone without piercing through him with his hand.
Also, I think it's unfair for Sasuke to master the use of Chidori so much, to make Kakashi look like some newb.

And the name being cooler is also a metter of preference ;)

[Rahan]

Because it's a high speed assassination technique... and with the Sharingan it's nearly un-counterable.

The Rasengan is alot slower paced, and as such the deliver system is just as slow.
---

It's a matter of preference... speed over raw power.
...

That, and the name is about 100x cooler. lol

Yeah, a super noisy and flashy technique which requires you to run on a straight line is perfect for assassinating. Gai was on crack.
We saw the first time Chidori was used (unlike Gai) and it was in a normal fight. The technique was not developped for assasination.

Besides, Naruto is the only one who needs time to perform Rasengan. J-man made an ultimage Rasengan while charging and it means he did it quickly because he is damn fast (and Naruto clone made a FRS super quickly too since he hadn't even started to make it when he went behind Kazuzu).
Jiraiya can use the technique Rasengan quickly like Sasuke can do Chidori quickly NOW. (remember the time he took to load the technique against Gaara. He even admitted he was glad Gaara was idling in his sand sphere and giving him time. Also Kakashi was pretty slow to load the Chidori against Zabuza), it doesn't mean one technique is faster than the other.

[Razh]

Anyways, I think Naruto should be able to form a Rasengan that big pretty soon if he get's a chance to continue with his unique type of training. And it's really boring watching him use his clones every time. It's understandable for Rasenshuriken, but at this point he should be able to form Rasengans without the help of his clones.
And he should use those chakra blades that Asuma used damm it!

[Decorus]

The reason why Kakashi does not use Rasengan is simple its difficult for him to perform.

[Razh]

How is it difficult for him to perform when he performed it with one hand in a second?

[Rahan]

Anyways, I think Naruto should be able to form a Rasengan that big pretty soon if he get's a chance to continue with his unique type of training. And it's really boring watching him use his clones every time. It's understandable for Rasenshuriken, but at this point he should be able to form Rasengans without the help of his clones.
And he should use those chakra blades that Asuma used damm it!

Shikamaru is the one who inherited the chakra blades and rightly so. The only reason for Naruto to get the chakra blades is that he is the main character and it doesn't make too much sense storywise.
They would be overpowered in Naruto's hands anyways. The shadow clones seems to own the same equipment as the original (since they can throw ordinary kunais). Now imagine Naruto attacking with thousand of chakra blades ? He could level a mountain.

However, Kakashi still owns the chakra blade of his father though. I have just verified he still have it at the end of Kakashi Gaiden (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/244/18/). Since he doesn't use it anymore (he is victim of Kishi's love for the Uchihas as he seems to have forgotten almost everything that made him an absolute genius and turned into an Uchiha wannabe), so he might give it to Naruto to match the Kusanagi.

[bean]

Shikamaru is the one who inherited the chakra blades and rightly so. The only reason for Naruto to get the chakra blades is that he is the main character and it doesn't make too much sense storywise.
They would be overpowered in Naruto's hands anyways. The shadow clones seems to own the same equipment as the original (since they can throw ordinary kunais). Now imagine Naruto attacking with thousand of chakra blades ? He could level a mountain.

However, Kakashi still owns the chakra blade of his father though. I have just verified he still have it at the end of Kakashi Gaiden (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/244/18/). Since he doesn't use it anymore (he is victim of Kishi's love for the Uchihas as he seems to have forgotten almost everything that made him an absolute genius and turned into an Uchiha wannabe), so he might give it to Naruto to match the Kusanagi.


it was broken though...so unless it gets fixed, naruto is going to be fighitng with a stub.
[hr]

The reason why Kakashi does not use Rasengan is simple its difficult for him to perform.


he probably doesn't use it because he doesn't want to, not because it's hard...he has no problem using difficult jutsus...he's got his set of jutsus that he likes to use, but if the need to use the rasengan came up, he would probably use it.

[THETRUTH.com]

Kakashi probably uses the chidori because he created it not something all ninja do. Someone made a point about Sasuke using chidori-like jutsus but we dont really know if several of those jutsus are related to the chidori, at all, outside of elemental recomposition and name. Also Sasuke probably cant use Raikiri which is what Kakashi used during the Zabuza fight that took longer to form.

[Razh]

Shikamaru is the one who inherited the chakra blades and rightly so.

I didn't mean those exact ones that Asuma had, of course.
There are probably more of that kind of weapons than Asuma's knives and Kakashi's fang in Naruto's ninja world, don't you think?

[DarkManSharingan32]

Yeah, a super noisy and flashy technique which requires you to run on a straight line is perfect for assassinating. Gai was on crack.
We saw the first time Chidori was used (unlike Gai) and it was in a normal fight. The technique was not developped for assasination.

Besides, Naruto is the only one who needs time to perform Rasengan. J-man made an ultimage Rasengan while charging and it means he did it quickly because he is damn fast (and Naruto clone made a FRS super quickly too since he hadn't even started to make it when he went behind Kazuzu).
Jiraiya can use the technique Rasengan quickly like Sasuke can do Chidori quickly NOW. (remember the time he took to load the technique against Gaara. He even admitted he was glad Gaara was idling in his sand sphere and giving him time. Also Kakashi was pretty slow to load the Chidori against Zabuza), it doesn't mean one technique is faster than the other.

The quickest way between two points... IS a straight line.
And reguardless of sound, the ONLY thing that stopped Zabuza from being destroyed was Haku.

Now the difference between Sasuke... who had just learned the technique, and Sasuke now... are completely different, wouldn't you say?

I will grant you that the charging times for the Rasengan are getting a bit faster... but you have to remember that in each instance the user has bought himself a little time to get the jutsu off. (Common sense yes... But in a quickdraw between Kakashi or Sasuke against Jiraiya or Naruto... I would daresay the Chidori carries the slight advantage.)
---

And remember this...
Chidori IS an assassination technique... (Kakashi was mis-using the jutsu when he first developed it, remember...)

Now, if Kakashi used Rasengan...
There would be huge explosions everywhere he went.

The goal of killing swiftly and without a trace in completely blown. And in an assassination-type setting, Rasengan is sub-par at best. It's just too grandiose.
---

[Decorus]

Chidori is hardly quiet as it makes that very noticable and distinctive chirping noise that its named for.

Chidori is actually slower on the draw then Rasengan, the seals required for chidori slow it down. Naruto just does not create it quickly, but Jiraiya can make it with either hand very quickly. Naruto on the other hand has no real need to make jutsu faster so he doesn't bother with it.

Naruto can quite simply have Kage Bunshin create the jutsu for him, or use his Kage Bunshin for delaying his opponent long enough for him to do it and as such has no real pressing need for speed in his jutsu creation.


Kakashi could use Rasengan to kill just as quickly keep in mind that you can literally cut through someone with Rasengan if you don't detonate the sphere.

Rasengan is simply faster, requires no seals and can vary its power output on demand. The reason why Kakashi never uses it has to be its difficult for him to perform, otherwise its a plot hole. Just because Kakashi can make it seem easy outside of combat does not mean he can easily perform it in combat.

Honestly for the purposes he was using Chidori for in the Kakuzu fight it would have been better to use Rasengan after his initial chidori attack.

[DarkManSharingan32]

Chidori is hardly quiet as it makes that very noticable and distinctive chirping noise that its named for.

Chidori is actually slower on the draw then Rasengan, the seals required for chidori slow it down. Naruto just does not create it quickly, but Jiraiya can make it with either hand very quickly. Naruto on the other hand has no real need to make jutsu faster so he doesn't bother with it.

Naruto can quite simply have Kage Bunshin create the jutsu for him, or use his Kage Bunshin for delaying his opponent long enough for him to do it and as such has no real pressing need for speed in his jutsu creation.


Kakashi could use Rasengan to kill just as quickly keep in mind that you can literally cut through someone with Rasengan if you don't detonate the sphere.

Rasengan is simply faster, requires no seals and can vary its power output on demand. The reason why Kakashi never uses it has to be its difficult for him to perform, otherwise its a plot hole. Just because Kakashi can make it seem easy outside of combat does not mean he can easily perform it in combat.

Honestly for the purposes he was using Chidori for in the Kakuzu fight it would have been better to use Rasengan after his initial chidori attack.

Why are people still bringing up the sound idea...
I don't believe there is a single person in the manga who was able to avoid the Chidori by hearing it coming. Kakuzu and Zabuza are perfect examples.

And I'm not entirely sure whether or not the Rasengan itself is a killer jutsu... I mean it definetly has the capability, but remember the ingeneous Kabuto took it head on and managed to live. Switch that to the Chidori... and no amount of cell regeneration is going to save him. (And before you say that "Kakuzu didn't die"... I assure you at least one part did.)

But then again... Kabuto would never underestimate Sasuke or Kakashi the way he did Naruto... Frontal attacks would be suicide.

[bean]

Why are people still bringing up the sound idea...
I don't believe there is a single person in the manga who was able to avoid the Chidori by hearing it coming. Kakuzu and Zabuza are perfect examples.

And I'm not entirely sure whether or not the Rasengan itself is a killer jutsu... I mean it definetly has the capability, but remember the ingeneous Kabuto took it head on and managed to live. Switch that to the Chidori... and no amount of cell regeneration is going to save him. (And before you say that "Kakuzu didn't die"... I assure you at least one part did.)

But then again... Kabuto would never underestimate Sasuke or Kakashi the way he did Naruto... Frontal attacks would be suicide.


also, chidori cuts through everything...rasengan...not so much

[Razh]

Why are people still bringing up the sound idea...
I don't believe there is a single person in the manga who was able to avoid the Chidori by hearing it coming. Kakuzu and Zabuza are perfect examples.


You're missing the fact that Haku heard it coming and threw himself in front of it. He could have just as easilly dodged it that way.
Haku was fastest we have seen at that point in manga. But there are a lot more faster guys now. And don't forget that Kakuzu also dodged one Chidori from Kakashi.

[MegaX]

Vanilla Rasengan would send them flying in addition to the damage. And that does not make for a good stealth kill.

[jodi]

I agree about Naruto needing more cool jutsus...
But I don't agree that the Ultimate Rasengan wasn't cool...
Because think of it, Jiraya taught Rasengan to Naruto, but yet so far we hadn't seen Jiraya using it himself
in fact, this fight with Pain is the first real fight for Jiraya in the series, so if he didn't use any sort of Rasengan it would be disapointing... I mean, why do you teach a jutsu to the student you like if u don't use it yourself once in a while?
But differentelly from Naruto, Jiraya has a whole bag of jutsus and we are seeing them in this fight...
I am really enjoying Jiraya vs Pain... so cool battle... One of the coolest I've seen so far. I am still cheering for the perviest nin to win...

GO Pervy J GO!

[Neuroff]

I didn't mean those exact ones that Asuma had, of course.
There are probably more of that kind of weapons than Asuma's knives and Kakashi's fang in Naruto's ninja world, don't you think?
I always try to bring this up when people are talking about Asuma's knives, but for some reason people are stuck on the idea that only two were ever made.


The quickest way between two points... IS a straight line.
And reguardless of sound, the ONLY thing that stopped Zabuza from being destroyed was Haku.
Zabuza was being held down by Kakashi's dogs, it's not like he could have dodged in the first place.


And I'm not entirely sure whether or not the Rasengan itself is a killer jutsu... I mean it definetly has the capability, but remember the ingeneous Kabuto took it head on and managed to live. Switch that to the Chidori... and no amount of cell regeneration is going to save him. (And before you say that "Kakuzu didn't die"... I assure you at least one part did.)

But then again... Kabuto would never underestimate Sasuke or Kakashi the way he did Naruto... Frontal attacks would be suicide.
Kabuto is one of the few who could have survived that because he was regenerating while he was taking the damage. Any normal person would have been killed or incapacitated by that attack.

[Decorus]

Kabuto despite his inhuman capability to heal his body was still incapacitated by Rasengan and he prepared for it in advance.

As for the Rasengan Jiraiya sliced thru a tree with it like the tree was butter and Naruto did the same thing to the ground with the incomplete Rasengan against Tsunade.

The knock back can be completely avoided if you so desire and you can use Rasengan like a chakra wood chipper if you so desired.

[Razh]

Even if that doesn't work, it looks like being blasted away by it does the trick. Actually, that Itachi's clone could have been dead before he even landed. He started bleeding right away...

[jodi]

You're missing the fact that Haku heard it coming and threw himself in front of it. He could have just as easilly dodged it that way.
Haku was fastest we have seen at that point in manga. But there are a lot more faster guys now. And don't forget that Kakuzu also dodged one Chidori from Kakashi.

When did Kakuzu avoid one chidori from Kakashi?

[Razh]

Sorry, I mixed things up a little. I checked again. When Naruto tried to use Rasenshuriken the first time on Kakuzu, and got captured, Kakuzu avoided Yamato's wood jutsu, and Kakashi used Chidori to free Naruto.

[jodi]

Sorry, I mixed things up a little. I checked again. When Naruto tried to use Rasenshuriken the first time on Kakuzu, and got captured, Kakuzu avoided Yamato's wood jutsu, and Kakashi used Chidori to free Naruto.

i don't know if it was a chidori
it could be only normal chakra...
i say this because i couldn't see the sparkles that normally we see on kakashi using chidori

[Razh]

I don't know. It looked kinda electrically to me. And I've never seen him use it like that. But of course, those lines aren't so strong as a human body, so it's possible he doesn't need a momentum to cut trough them. I don't know what else it could be. I don't think that Kakashi can use a chakra scalpel like Kabuto.

[The Boff]

you guys are so far off topic that you cant even see the topic with a telescope anymore.

get back on topic.

[Razh]

You get back on it. Besides it was only 4 posts. 5 with yours.

What more to say about Jiraiya's Rasengan. Well it certainly was a mistake using a Rasnegan that big right away. He should have tested his new oponents first. Unless of course, he can make an even bigger one...

[lazyboyrod]

That Jutsu is off the chain

[Oblivion]

how do you think the rasengan can be improved?
how can it be used to not harm naruto?
and how WILL naruto probably improve it?

my idea: Rasengaamhameha^^

to shot the rasengan with wind chakra. or create a big wind blast, meaing a rasengan that thusts onto one direction

making 100 binshin and then casting rasengamehameha would be cool^^

[Franckie]

Naruto just needs to have a KB deliver the 50% FRS, that will help him avoid the backlash. As to perfecting the technique, however, Naruto may need to complete "that jutsu" before we attend to FRS. Like "that jutsu", FRS may require Naruto to have 100% chakra over the Kyuubi's chakra, a works-in-progress atm, in order for it to be completed. I imagine that FRS will be throwable as Chouji did highlight that possibility. FRS being throwable would help make FRS more deliverable.

[Oblivion]

yeah i agree, throwing (better shooting, way cooler) could be an option,

or maybe speed up the casting, like open palm and there it is, without any other extra bunshin to help creating it

[Inkovic]

He has the Wind Release:Rasengan which injured Kakashi's arm when the collided Rasengan's together.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b281/FaithLeader/180px-Fuuton-rasengan.jpg

It doesn't harm Naruto and is significantly stronger than an ordinary Rasengan. I also believe Naruto might Wind Release Oodama Rasengan as well for a sure kill technique. Honestly Rasenshurkien is overkill, if he used it on Sasuke all he'll be doing is dragging a pile of guts back to Konoha.

[Oblivion]

It doesn't harm Naruto

it does, tsunade said to naruto not to use it or it will cut of his chakrawhatever in his arm forever.

[Inkovic]

it does, tsunade said to naruto not to use it or it will cut of his chakrawhatever in his arm forever.

That's the Rasenshuriken. The one I'm talking about is it's inital form he hit Kakashi with.


http://img.onemanga.com/mangas/00000004/00000339/12.jpg
http://img.onemanga.com/mangas/00000004/00000339/13.jpg


That form seems to have no real adverse affect on Naruto and is nowhere near as explosively devastating that the Rasenshuriken form.

[Decorus]

Yeap Fuuton:Rasengan...

[Ripht]

yea its most likely that FRS hurts him but FR doesn't, but FRS is most powerful.

I would guess a suicide clone would be the only way to deliever it safely. Or he could compress it more, and get the needles too focus in one direction on impact.

[Inkovic]

yea its most likely that FRS hurts him but FR doesn't, but FRS is most powerful.

I would guess a suicide clone would be the only way to deliever it safely. Or he could compress it more, and get the needles too focus in one direction on impact.

Like a RasenDrill? That'd be cool, kinda like Gurren Lagaan

[Oblivion]

yeah, or make him shoot chakra needles like a machinegun from out of the rasengan!!

[Ripht]

more like a close range shotgun oh needle bomb, hit him and booooom the needles just go flying into the enemy but only in 1 direction not everywhere

[Oblivion]

a needle shotgun final flash !!!

now that'd b hokage worthy^^

[marte1980]

I'd like to se Naruto in High-Kyuubi mode using something like the Fuuton Rasenshuriken. That time when he went 4-tails he spilled that black chakra sphere aganst Orochimaru causing one of the most destructive explosions of the entire manga.If in the future Naruto will be able to control all that Kyuubi's power, he will mix his shinobi's abilities with Kyuubi's pure power.A black Kyuubi's chakra Rasen Shuriken thrown to the enemy could be the most powerful jutsu of all the manga.

[AngryChubbs]

i dont think it will ever become something that youd have to throw because lets face it, it isn't very easy to hit a ninja by throwing a giant shuriken at them. i mean just take the zabuza fight as an example, it is easy to dodge something that is coming straight at you and has a straight path. maybe if he could somehow throw it and can control it while it flies, then that would be totally uber sweet....but i think once he perfects it, it might not hurt himself anymore because he will be able to control the chakra and make it 100 times more destructive.
and to the person that said that if he could combine his chakra with the kyubii chakra that he could make an uber blast...i think the contrary, i mean in the manga, it was stated that his chakra was basically a very potent poison...so what i was thinking was that what if he could lower the destructive power by a little but incorporate the kyubii chakra in it....then it would be a super strong attack that had a potent poison as an added affect.

[Oblivion]

imagine: 100 of kage bunshins throwing the rasengan !!!

[Kanzen Shinkiro]

Rasengan is an incomplete jutsu upon which much can be built. As it has been shown through Naruto, adding nature manipulation to the jutsu itself will enable one to create an elemental jutsu as a result. In other words, Rasengan can be made into Fuuton, Katon, Doton, Suiton, Mokuton, Hyoton and Raiton: Rasengan simply by adding nature manipulation to plain chakra-formed jutsu that is Rasengan. It was perhaps Minato's goal from the start as it is said he never quite got the time to complete the jutsu. Simply, Rasengan in its full glory would have been called whatever-Minato's-elemental-affinity-was: Rasengan. Assuming father and son share an elemental affinity, Minato's completed work would have been the Fuuton: Rasengan previously shown by Naruto, however, that is debatable. And, being the genius he was, Minato would have probably created various variations of the jutsu only slightly modifying it. Rasengan is basically a stock ability from which various others techniques can stem from. It is vast enough to be called infinite and more. Take Rasenshuriken for instance. It is basically a super Fuuton: Rasengan in its most concentrated form. Enough so to be able to do the damage it thus.

Ultimately, it could become a hadouken-type jutsu and be thrown (e.g. in the form of Raiton or Katon: Rasengan); a bullet-type (e.g. in the form of Mokuton, Hyoton, or Doton: Rasengan);or as a barrier-type (e.g. in the form of Suiton: Rasengan). In the end, how much further you can press or alter Rasengan is really up to how much time one is willing to put into it, and what type of nin the user is. In Naruto's case, it has been shown in various sizes, compressions, and as a Fuuton, and in its newest form, Fuuton: Rasenshuriken. Naruto could use it as a blender of sorts in the future in order to mow through just about anything, or even to cut through roughly anything given his elemental affinity's natural talent for cutting. However, I think its about time Naruto learned something different. So far, he has only learned a few tricks. He should become a little more Orochimaru-ish and show interest in other jutsu or even a new element all together. After all, he does have the chakra and method to do a whole lot of mastering and less slacking. :)

[Inkovic]

Here's a thought. Can Naruto do the Ultimate Rasengan that Jiraiya can do?

Cause if he learns that he could build a lethal jutsu on that

[Kanzen Shinkiro]

Here's a thought. Can Naruto do the Ultimate Rasengan that Jiraiya can do?

Cause if he learns that he could build a lethal jutsu on that

Q: What is the Ultimate Rasengan?
A: A Rasengan with greater chakra output.

Considering just how much chakra Naruto possesses, it would be easy for him. Enough practice and he could make one the size of the moon. :)

[Dantrag]

Rasengan is an incomplete jutsu upon which much can be built. As it has been shown through Naruto, adding nature manipulation to the jutsu itself will enable one to create an elemental jutsu as a result. In other words, Rasengan can be made into Fuuton, Katon, Doton, Suiton, Mokuton, Hyoton and Raiton: Rasengan simply by adding nature manipulation to plain chakra-formed jutsu that is Rasengan. It was perhaps Minato's goal from the start as it is said he never quite got the time to complete the jutsu. Simply, Rasengan in its full glory would have been called whatever-Minato's-elemental-affinity-was: Rasengan. Assuming father and son share an elemental affinity, Minato's completed work would have been the Fuuton: Rasengan previously shown by Naruto, however, that is debatable. And, being the genius he was, Minato would have probably created various variations of the jutsu only slightly modifying it. Rasengan is basically a stock ability from which various others techniques can stem from. It is vast enough to be called infinite and more. Take Rasenshuriken for instance. It is basically a super Fuuton: Rasengan in its most concentrated form. Enough so to be able to do the damage it thus.

That's the basic principle behind the rasengan indeed. Though for some reason both Kakashi and 4th failed to input the elemental chakra, Kakashi points out that that is the reason why he then developed Chidori which means Rasengan existed before Kakashi Gaiden.

However there might have been several reasons as to why they failed and Naruto succeeded.

First possible reason: From the beginning, it was propably impossible for 1 person to supply normal chakra, mold it to rasengan, supply elemental chakra and mold that too. I think that is why Naruto was always played out as needing shadow clones to perform the rasengan, since Naruto points out that it was like trying to look left and right at the same time when he was trying to add the elemental chakra by himself. With 2 clones + real naruto. Real Naruto supplies normal chakra, 1 clone supplies elemental chakra and the last clone molds both to form FS.

Second possible reason: Look at how many shadow clones Naruto used in his training. His chakra level is said to be very high even without Kyubi's chakra. Possibly more then 10 times if not 100 times that of Kakashi's. Since Naruto used thousands of clones for the first two stages of his training and then dozens of 3-clone teams, which propably was a feat impossible for both Minato and Kakashi. + with Naruto learning what ever his Kage Bunshins learned propably sped up the process significantly

Third possible reason: Each element behaves differently, adding the element alone to rasengan does not mean that the new rasengan is of any use(Though Kakashi states that he was unable to get the rasengan and his elemental affinity, lightning to mix at all so the principle that normal rasengan as a base for any elemental recomposition might have been a bit off as well. After all something working in a theory isn't the same as something working in real life.), maybe it was simply impossible to make something usefull of the possible Raiton-rasengan.



Ultimately, it could become a hadouken-type jutsu and be thrown (e.g. in the form of Raiton or Katon: Rasengan); a bullet-type (e.g. in the form of Mokuton, Hyoton, or Doton: Rasengan);or as a barrier-type (e.g. in the form of Suiton: Rasengan). In the end, how much further you can press or alter Rasengan is really up to how much time one is willing to put into it, and what type of nin the user is. In Naruto's case, it has been shown in various sizes, compressions, and as a Fuuton, and in its newest form, Fuuton: Rasenshuriken. Naruto could use it as a blender of sorts in the future in order to mow through just about anything, or even to cut through roughly anything given his elemental affinity's natural talent for cutting. However, I think its about time Naruto learned something different. So far, he has only learned a few tricks. He should become a little more Orochimaru-ish and show interest in other jutsu or even a new element all together. After all, he does have the chakra and method to do a whole lot of mastering and less slacking. :)

Naruto could indeed go for a new element of he could simply skip the whole combining rasengan with fuuton and learning basic fuuton skills first, after all they could propably be even more devastating and it would also give him something other than slow and risky close combat rasengans. At the moment without Kuybi's extendable chakra arms and helpfull teammates, Naruto has nothing to counter long range and midd range opponents.

[Oblivion]

i think this is wha naruto will learn with the toads, another element and mix it to something totally fitting to the rasengan.

btw wha is jiraya's oil element consists of? or is it 'real' oil?

[AngryChubbs]

does naruto really need another element? he already has the strongest attack element and he has incorporated it into one of the strongest attacks and has made a bomb that is only 50% complete that does enough damage to create a crater the size of a football field. if he gets this to 100% completion, even they kyubii would prolly get killed by this attack.

and imagine if he can make 10 shadow clones walking around using this ultimate attack. its like having 10 nukes in your back pocket.

[Decorus]

Wind is only the strongest in short to mid range combat. Fire vrs Wind would end with Fire winning. Water beats Fire. Earth beats Water. Lightning beats Earth and finally Wind beats Lightning. The more elements you control the more options you have in combat.

[Dantrag]

Well since Sasuke is mainly a fire and lightning-element user and Naruto has wind which is stronger than Lightning yet weaker than fire so the obvious second, favourable element for him would be Water, since Water > Fire.

But I still like to hope that Kishy doesn't turn this elemental strength & weakness thing into a "you can counter an s-ranked FRS with a low level crappy Katon technique like Hyosenka"-fest, because that would just be ridiculous. I personally like to think that you need high level jutsus to counter other high level jutsus.

[MegaX]

Well since Sasuke is mainly a fire and lightning-element user and Naruto has wind which is stronger than Lightning yet weaker than fire so the obvious second, favourable element for him would be Water, since Water > Fire.

But I still like to hope that Kishy doesn't turn this elemental strength & weakness thing into a "you can counter an s-ranked FRS with a low level crappy Katon technique like Hyosenka"-fest, because that would just be ridiculous. I personally like to think that you need high level jutsus to counter other high level jutsus.

Loathe as I am to reference Pokemon, that puts me in mind of the strategy guide for the original games. The thing at the front that talked about elemental advantages and disadvantages had a little disclaimer that these match-ups were only effective for enemies at similar levels and that if one enemy was 20 levels higher than another, the elemental match-ups were more or less irrelevant.

(This didn't, of course, count the Ghost/Normal, Ground VS Flying and Thunder VS Ground, which were always ineffective no matter what)

[Decorus]

If someone tossed a standard Fire jutsu in front of FRS, there wouldn't be anything left of the poor bastard who went "But fire beats wind....."

[fremeer]

i doubt its as simple as one thing beats another. For instance FRS is an S ranked jutsu. even if a B ranked fire jutsu was used it would not be strong enough to take out the strong wind of the FRS. Think of it like a bushfire, a strong wind can put out a small bushfire but a big bushfire is only made stronger by the wind.

[AngryChubbs]

yea...yamato explained it...while one may beat the other, their strength also matters.

[quick_al]

Yes, i was wondering the same thing, when yamatto did the explanation of the elements, and i agree with Angry_Chubbs while they do beat each other power does matter and it will be interesting to see a high level wind verse a fire element.

a little off note:

if naruto develops another element like water will he be able to combine it the rasengan? or will he be able to combine wind and water since he has that talent

[Decorus]

FRS isn't an S ranked Jutsu it tops the scale above that rating. If you were to use the standard 1-10 power scale it caps out somwhere near 15 or so.

[Inkovic]

I wonder if other elements could be added to Rasengan, not just wind.

Say for example Naruto's second element turns out to be Earth could he incorporate that into the Rasengan. So rather than cutting the opponent in a microscopic level he could make an exploding Rasengan much like Deidara's clay bombs.

Or even combine the elements like Wind and Earth so it can explode and cut, requiring four, maybe five clones at a time.

[Decorus]

Thats what the jutsu was designed to do. Rasengan was a stock jutsu designed to be combined with different elemental Natures to create entirely different jutsu.

[gold349]

How? those people who have been able to make Rasengon only got that far they couldn't add any of there other element(s) to it. Naruto has been shown to be the only one who has gone one step more than anybody else including Jaraiya and the fourth, they must have tried and failed.

FRS is only 50%, so far he has used two types of rasengan one normal and one odoma, i think step 2 and the 100% FRS is going to be with odoma.

[Decorus]

FRS is already essentially an Oodama Rasengan combined with Wind. Fuuton Rasengan was completed a long time ago.

As Kakashi explained it requires a Natural talent or sense to be able to properly combine Elemental and Form Manipulation to create jutsu. Kakashi can combine elemental with basic form manipulation. Fuuton Rasengan is combining elemental with the maximum possible to ever achieve Form Manipulation. Kakashi simply lacks the talent to do that just like Yondaime hit the same brick wall Kakashi did.

[Rahan]

Thats what the jutsu was designed to do. Rasengan was a stock jutsu designed to be combined with different elemental Natures to create entirely different jutsu.

Yep. Kakashi's even stated he was unable to make his lightning Rasengan IIRC.

But I just had a thought.
Anyone thinks the only reason rasengan suddenly wasn't a finished jutsu anymore was because Kishimoto suddenly realized that the jutsu Yondaime spent 5 years developping was not better than the one created by 13 years old Kakashi and it wasn't what Kishi had planned at all when he first introduced the Rasengan ?

[Franckie]

Anyone thinks the only reason rasengan suddenly wasn't a finished jutsu anymore was because Kishimoto suddenly realized that the jutsu Yondaime spent 5 years developping was not better than the one created by 13 years old Kakashi and it wasn't what Kishi had planned at all when he first introduced the Rasengan ?
It took Yondaime three years actually to develop the Rasengan. He was never able to complete it simply because he lacked the chakra reserves for the only known method to completing the Rasengan: KB.

Yondaime's Rasengan would be superior to Kakashi's Chidori as well. While you don't need Sharingan for Rasengan, you need it for the the Chidori in order to properly use the jutsu, and Kakashi didn't receive the Sharingan until after Obito's death.

[Rahan]

My bad, I thought it was 3 years and not 5.

But considering a genius of Yondaime's level spent so much time working on it, shouldn't it be considerably stronger than what it is ?
Besides, Sasuke used a point blank Chidori without moving on Naruto and still pierced his lung, so you doesn't need to run straight at the enemy to use it, so you should be able to do some damage with it without the sharingan.

Learning the Rasengan was extremely hard ("only you [Jiraiya] and Yondaime can learn that technique" according to Tsunade), yet the Rasengan clearly didn't live up to its hype. In term of power, it's at best Chidori level (when Sasuke and Naruto clashed it) and there have been plenty of stronger moves shown.
My point is that Kishimoto felt forced to say Rasengan wasn't a complete jutsu because the jutsu was too weak to be Yondaime's signature move. That's why it had to be completed, and obviously, Kishimoto needed a trick to make believable that Naruto (and not Jiraiya for example) would be the one completing it. (hence the KB training session which made Naruto looks like a retard once again)

[Franckie]

But considering a genius of Yondaime's level spent so much time working on it, shouldn't it be considerably stronger than what it is ?

What could Yondaime do with the technique? The jutsu is A-rank to begin with because Rasengan is spatial manipulation taken to its highest level, and he couldn't add his elemental chakra to the technique.


Besides, Sasuke used a point blank Chidori without moving on Naruto and still pierced his lung, so you doesn't need to run straight at the enemy to use it, so you should be able to do some damage with it without the sharingan.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/240/14/


Learning the Rasengan was extremely hard ("only you [Jiraiya] and Yondaime can learn that technique" according to Tsunade), yet the Rasengan clearly didn't live up to its hype. In term of power, it's at best Chidori level (when Sasuke and Naruto clashed it) and there have been plenty of stronger moves shown.

Sasuke couldn't overpower Rasengan with Chidori because as shown in the hosptial fight, Rasengan packs the bigger whallop. And Chidori itself packs a whallop because the jutsu is is A-rank because it simultaneously combines lightning recomposition with spatial manipulation.


My point is that Kishimoto felt forced to say Rasengan wasn't a complete jutsu because the jutsu was too weak to be Yondaime's signature move.

Hiraishin is the Yondaime's signature move. Rasengan being incomplete to begin with is simply a convenient route for Kishi to explain the basis for elemental ninjutsu as what occured in the Immortals Arc. We learn things about the Narutoworld when Naruto and co. inquires about things.


That's why it had to be completed, and obviously, Kishimoto needed a trick to make believable that Naruto (and not Jiraiya for example) would be the one completing it. (hence the KB training session which made Naruto looks like a retard once again)

Jiraiya doesn't have Naruto's amount of charka, and like Kakashi, probably believed completing the Rasengan couldn't be done. The KB training was simply Kishi inventing a semi-believable means for Naruto to catch up to Sasuke who in turn had a massive growth in strength during the timeskip in addition for Naruto to get around the brickwall known as KN4.

And as for Naruto not knowing about KB's original purpose, it's a plot device. From an in-universe perspective, KB's recon ability has existed the whole 50+ yrs. the technique has been around, yet from an out-of universe perspective, it is clearly a new power. You think Kishi originally planned KB having such an ability when he introduced it as a simple doppelganger jutsu eight years ago?

[Rahan]

What could Yondaime do with the technique? The jutsu is A-rank to begin with because Rasengan is spatial manipulation taken to its highest level, and he couldn't add his elemental chakra to the technique.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/240/14/

Yeah, Lee said something like that too. He said that even if he knew Chidori, he would not be able to use it.
Doesn't change the fact that 15 or so chapter earlier, immobile Sasuke used the Chidori and it still had enough force to pierce Naruto's chest. (so it wasn't just a punch with some electricy around)


Sasuke couldn't overpower Rasengan with Chidori because as shown in the hosptial fight, Rasengan packs the bigger whallop. And Chidori itself packs a whallop because the jutsu is is A-rank because it simultaneously combines lightning recomposition with spatial manipulation.

First time they use it at the VOTE, the jutsus are evenly matched. Both are pushed away with roughly the same force.
For the Chidori at the hospital, if you consider the speed of the jutsu is crucial as you, Lee and Yondaime believe, of course that when the user is simply thrown away, the jutsu won't be at full power when it hits. And yet, it was already enough to seriously damage the tower while Sasuke was nowhere near his full speed.



Hiraishin is the Yondaime's signature move. Rasengan being incomplete to begin with is simply a convenient route for Kishi to explain the basis for elemental ninjutsu as what occured in the Immortals Arc. We learn things about the Narutoworld when Naruto and co. inquires about things.
Still Rasengan was the only thing with the death god we knew about Yondaime for almost 2 years. And during those 2 years, it never looked good enough.



And as for Naruto not knowing about KB's original purpose, it's a plot device. From an in-universe perspective, KB's recon ability has existed the whole 50+ yrs. the technique has been around, yet from an out-of universe perspective, it is clearly a new power. You think Kishi originally planned KB having such an ability when he introduced it as a simple doppelganger jutsu eight years ago?

If Naruto didn't want to make Naruto looks like a retard, all it would have taken was to create a variant of Kage Bunshin. Itachi had explosives bunshins, why wouldn't Naruto have scouting bunshins that report informations to the real body. It's just an example. There are thousand of ways Kishi could have made Naruto grow in a way that didnt' make him look like a retard.

[Decorus]

Hmm lets cover some basic facts about Rasengan

1. Rasengan is like a bullet small entry wound, blows the back out of the person hit with it.
2. Rasengan is more flexible then Chidori it can stun, wound, knockdown, slice through like butter or turn all thier vital organs into paste.
3. Rasengan does not require any handseals and its power level as above is variable.

Now lets cover the water tower.

1. Speed has nothing to do with Chidori doing gimpy damage, Chidori is like a knife it puts a small hole through pretty much anything you use it on.
2. Rasengan like I said above has a variable power setting from knock a person down to turn thier internal organs into paste.
3. It Naruto and Sasuke's jutsu had met the person who would win is the person who put more power into it.
4. Chidori is basic shape manipulation combined with Elementally recomposed lightning to create a cutting tool that can cut through pretty much anything.


So in short if Naruto wanted to beat Sasuke's chidori with Rasengan he can, but he would have probably killed Sasuke in the process. Since Naruto is unwilling to kill Sasuke it doesn't come off as impressive.

Kabuto is pretty much the evidence of Rasengan's power he took one and expended all of his remaining chakra and was still unable to heal all of the damage it inflicted on him. You hit him with Chidori miss vital organs and he would be laughing in your face.

[Franckie]

Yeah, Lee said something like that too. He said that even if he knew Chidori, he would not be able to use it.

Lee could use it, just not in a safe method.


Doesn't change the fact that 15 or so chapter earlier, immobile Sasuke used the Chidori and it still had enough force to pierce Naruto's chest. (so it wasn't just a punch with some electricy around)

Piercing the human body is a pretty easy feat to do. Don't see how this is even a valid piont.


First time they use it at the VOTE, the jutsus are evenly matched. Both are pushed away with roughly the same force.

Kishi hasn't always been consistant with things. You just need to take a look at the Sharingan to see what I mean.


For the Chidori at the hospital, if you consider the speed of the jutsu is crucial as you, Lee and Yondaime believe, of course that when the user is simply thrown away, the jutsu won't be at full power when it hits. And yet, it was already enough to seriously damage the tower while Sasuke was nowhere near his full speed.

Both Naruto and Sasuke would have been flung about the same relative speed, but Naruto clearly performed better than Sasuke did.


Still Rasengan was the only thing with the death god we knew about Yondaime for almost 2 years. And during those 2 years, it never looked good enough.

Define "never looked good enough". Being the most advanced form of spatial manipulation is why Rasengan is an even more "amazing" technique than Chidori.


If Naruto didn't want to make Naruto looks like a retard, all it would have taken was to create a variant of Kage Bunshin. Itachi had explosives bunshins, why wouldn't Naruto have scouting bunshins that report informations to the real body. It's just an example. There are thousand of ways Kishi could have made Naruto grow in a way that didnt' make him look like a retard.

KB's recon ability is a new power just how Kishi has been inventing all sorts of new powers for the Sharingan. The Sharingan was introduced and explained as "Copy Wheel Eye". It stayed that way for roughly three years before Itachi appeared around chapter 140. Since then we've seen the Sharingan do things such as control Kyuubi, breath fire, and spawn black holes, yet none of these abilities adhere to the Sharingan's original powers.

Naruto looked stupid for not knowing KB's original purpose, but Kishi went for more than six years without once hinting such an ability existed. Kishimoto isn't an imcompetent writer, but he isn't an extremely intelligent mangaka either.

[Alexis]

To begin with, it's not like many people wouldn't get defeated from a regular Rasengan anyway if he connects it. So far Naruto has only successfully connected it on Kabuto though, but it defeated him.

Then came the fruits of Naruto's training with Jiraya, (if you want to refer to it with a positive adjective.) the Odama Rasengan. It requires an extra kagebunshin to use, and probably more chakra, but it's obviously more powerful.
It's not likely that anyone wouldn't get defeated by it if they got hit, let alone survive.
So far I can understand why Naruto enhanced it. It went from just hurting to killing. Raikiri has always been a killing strike since it pirces the opponent while Rasengan didn't, so it needed that upgrade to reach the same effect.

But then came yet another upgrade. Fuuton Rasengan Shuriken. What is the point of this jutsu, really? Besides coincidentally having the right element to fight against some of Sasuke's jutsu, just about the only person in the series who would not die from being hit by Odama Rasengan was Kakuzu.

Odama Rasengan should do the job. If the target is hit, I don't see them surviving it. So what's the point with Fuuton Rasengan Shuriken? It has a wider area of which it hits, sure. But only after it connects. And it's not like Odama Rasengan has a small area of which it hits either.

My beef with this whole thing is that Naruto has learned nothing new here other than just powering up a move that really didn't need to be powered up anyway. Rasengan defeated Kabuto and Odama Rasengan killed the fake Itachi.
I would much rather that Naruto learned a new jutsu that has a different use.
Sasuke's Chidori Nagashi has a different use than the regular Chidori. As does his Chidori sword. But Naruto's Rasengan, Rasengan 2 and Rasengan 3 all work the same way. He has to run up to the enemy and smash it into them.
It's not a very versatile way to increase his skills by focusing on the exact same attack, year after year.

Please learn something new next. Not Rasengan 4.

[Sasuke_Kai_92]

The FRS is an incomplete jutsu. When he completes it, it may be a diferent Rasengan on a different level. You have to remember that the Rasengan is not a complete Jutsu, Minato couldnt do it , but Naruto can due to he's training. And FRS is just 50% I think.

Also the FRS is like a poison as Tsunade said. So it attacks the body on a celluar level.

[TheChosenOne]

Agreed, Naruto hasn't learned anything besides the KB's memory ability that will substantially make him much stronger. FRS is great and all but what's the point of using it when your own arm is destroyed in the process. The elemental Rasengan sounded cool since it's brought out the possiblity by using wind as a medium to employ the Rasengan, like how Sasuke uses his chidori, which wasn't the case, dissapointing. :)

If Naruto needs to increase his strength he needs to learn other jutsu's that fortify his other strengths than simply increasing his Rasengan to another level of power, which isn't needed in the first place. Odama Rasengan should be more than enough for a connecting kill shot, which doesn't have any fatal effects like total destruction of your arm. Hopefully the Rasengan growth stops at an elemental Rasengan, I mean what's next a dual elemental Rasengan. :notrust

[Alexis]

The FRS is an incomplete jutsu. When he completes it, it may be a diferent Rasengan on a different level.
Yeah that's what I meant with "Learn something new next. Not Rasengan 4."

As for the poison, well Odama rasengan should kill the target anyway.


I mean what's next a dual elemental Rasengan. :notrust
Don't say scary things like that...
Fuuton Doton Rasengan Shuriken.

[Sasuke_Kai_92]

Yeah that's what I meant with "Learn something new, not Rasengan 4."

As for the poison, well Odama rasengan should kill the target anyway.

But Kakashi told him to learn the incomplete jutsu. Think about it, say if he complete's this jutsu and the Rasengan is the size of a Spirit Bomb from DBZ? lol :amuse

It depends on how strong your opponent is. Would Odama Rasengan work on Orochimaru? Or Tsunade?

[Alexis]

But Kakashi told him to learn the incomplete jutsu. Think about it, say if he complete's this jutsu and the Rasengan is the size of a Spirit Bomb from DBZ? lol :amuse

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/3746/fgggfdfgil8.jpg


It depends on how strong your opponent is. Would Odama Rasengan work on Orochimaru? Or Tsunade?
Unless they have steel skin like the Arrancars, they would probably be toast.
Raikiri is a jutsu that was introduced at the very beginning of the series, yet if it connects on anyone, even Orochimaru, it's unlikely that it would not pierce their body. Likewise I don't see anyone having a body strong enough to survive Odama rasengan. (The guy in the picture above is an exception.)

[Sasuke_Kai_92]

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/3746/fgggfdfgil8.jpg


Unless they have steel skin like the Arrancars, they would probably be toast.

I dont read or watch Bleach..so yeah.
But you are right, he should focus he's training on other stuff. He has just started to learn he's Wind Element anyway..

[TheChosenOne]

Unless they have steel skin like the Arrancars, they would probably be toast.

Rasengan is strong enough to pierce steel reckoning Naruto scratching Sasuke's headband, during Part 1. :)

[Sasuke_Kai_92]

And that Rasengan by Jiraiya isnt Odama Rasengan. Thats just some big ass Rasengan. I would be pissed if Naruto completes the Jutsu and its the same as Jiraiya's Rasengan ¬.¬

[The Flash]

how about completing Hiraishin.... read my threazd under jutsu discussion.

[gfire2]

Rasengan is strong enough to pierce steel reckoning Naruto scratching Sasuke's headband, during Part 1. :)

actualli it was narutos punch that landed on the headband

but yer i agree naruto should have more jutsu's that the rasengan like sasuke, so many forms of lightning

[Alexis]

And that Rasengan by Jiraiya isnt Odama Rasengan. Thats just some big ass Rasengan. I would be pissed if Naruto completes the Jutsu and its the same as Jiraiya's Rasengan ¬.¬
Odama Rasengan is also just a bigger Rasengan. Jiraya's just happen to be bigger.


how about completing Hiraishin.... read my threazd under jutsu discussion.
Learn to walk before you run, I'd say. :p I'd like to see Naruto use Shunshin before he does something like that. He's never been a speed based character. Although he's not slow at all, but he has never used speed as a weapon like some other characters. (Sasuke, Lee, Kakashi, Minato, Madara, etc.) He usually uses bunshins to ambush people from behind instead.

[TheChosenOne]

actualli it was narutos punch that landed on the headband

True, but his hand was infused (http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-233/page002.html) with Rasengan when he scratched the headband. :)

[jocouslie]

personally i want him to learn a different jutsu other than completing the rasengan. how about some other jutsus like asuma's wind chakra infused blade technique or some other variations of the wind element.

[gfire2]

True, but his hand was infused (http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-233/page002.html) with Rasengan when he scratched the headband. :)

hmm from the manga it looks like he was clawed by the kyuubi cloak but in the anime he actualli used his fist but i reckon if he had a rasengan inside the cloak i reckon it should of blown sasuke's head off and i seriousli mean it, he should of done that so that we dont have to keep seeing these stupid godlike uchiha's

[Sasuke_Kai_92]

Odama Rasengan is also just a bigger Rasengan. Jiraya's just happen to be bigger.


Learn to walk before you run, I'd say. :p I'd like to see Naruto use Shunshin before he does something like that. He's never been a speed based character. Although he's not slow at all, but he has never used speed as a weapon like some other characters. (Sasuke, Lee, Kakashi, Minato, Madara, etc.) He usually uses bunshins to ambush people from behind instead.

Odama Rasengan is great ball rasengan
Cho Odama Rasengan is super great ball Rasengan which is used by Jiraiya and its much bigger then the normal Odama Rasengan. XD But yeah Rasengan 2 basically, just enhanced.

Naruto is fast when he is in kyuubi mode. But then again, he is out of control either. :| If only Jiraiya was alive. :|

[MegaX]

True, but his hand was infused (http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-233/page002.html) with Rasengan when he scratched the headband. :)

It looks like the Rasengan had fallen apart by that point.

[Franckie]

Rasengan is one of the best KO-attacks out there. KB + Rasengan destroys any normal ninja. KB + FRS destroys any ninja with exceptionally tough defenses (i.e. Kakuzu).

Completing the Rasengan and evolving it to Fuuton: RasenShuriken demonstrates Naruto's mastery over elemental ninjutsu. In theory, anything less difficult should be within Naruto's grasp because we know he can spatially manipulate his chakra however he wants (Naruto can already do spheres and needles), and his experience with manipulating the wind-element is even greater than people like Asuma, who happens to be a natural wind-user as well.

And as for the concept of making a "bigger Rasengan", think of why Jiraiya decided to make a big Rasengan.

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/3746/fgggfdfgil8.jpg

The bigger the Rasengan, the harder it becomes for the enemy to counterattack. Only "ultimate defenses" of the calibre we've seen from Madara and Pein could survive such an attack.

[lazyboyrod]

Jiraiya made that ultimate rasengan in a split second, i dont think Naruto is even close to that level!

[Raimaru]

I had a vision of a completed Fuuton: Rasen Shuriken.

Up to now, it is a big, oversized, meele attack, or shorter, something without any relation to shuriken at all.
So here's my way from a 50% to a 100% (= full developed) Rasen Shuriken.

--- Skip from here if you just want to read the "real" improvements ---

1. Naruto definetely has to improve his chakra control. He still is unable to create a normal rasengan. This is really poor, and additionally, he would need it to use a Rasen Shuriken out of my vision.

So let's assume he finally got the drill and manages to A. build a rasengan one-handed (without using 2nd hand) and B. control the size of this rasengan (his usual size or lower).

2. Naruto has to learn to split his attention equally so he may be able to use his now free hand to induce his wind element in a common rasengan.

--- Up to now, there haven't been any "new" parts, but keep reading ---

3. Ok, we reached the most questionable part of my vision. Since we all remember the only one direct hit Naruto ever made with rasengan - for those who don't remember, it was the one which dashed Kabuto into this big rock when he was attempting to kill Tsunade - we know, it can fly. You all saw the acceleration in anime, it definetly became faster and finally "shot" Kabuto into the rock.

For my vision, I hope it is not required to hit the target to start the acceleration process. So, again, let's assume it can fly, and somehow, Naruto realized that and learned to do it at will.

4. Now it's time to put the parts together. The part I liked most of my vision that it came to mind like rasengan itself - one piece after another.

So, it looks like that.

Naruto summons a rasengan with the size of an eyeball in his right palm. He may cover the right hand with his left - 1. the enemy does not see what he does 2. he uses his left hand to add wind element into his little rasengan. Now we got a small Rasenshuriken, covered by his hands.

And now, by a mere throwing movement, he "ignites" the Rasen Shuriken, so the acceleration may start. By combining his throwing power together with rasengan's native accerlation speed this Rasen Shuriken may reach top speed uncompared to any other throwing projectile. Additionally, he won't damage himself since he increases the distance between him and the "exploding" Rasen Shuriken.

Ok, the next part would be too awesome to be true, but let's hope for it.
To improve the whole process by an additional step, Naruto may also summon more than 1 Rasen Shuriken at a time. Up to 5 - for each finger one. Right hand does the Rasengans, the left hand the wind element.

Ok, why? Here comes the answer.

1. Size - There is no need for a ridiculous oversized explosion technique. Beside Naruto never had so many enemies at the same time, he might injure his comrades by accident too. As big as it is now, it is completely useless, even if Naruto could protect himself from the poisionous effect.
2. Function - Hell, it's called a shuriken. Shuriken are thrown.
Also, it does not work with my brain how a boy, who can't use a technique he used for years properly, think he could gain the title "Hokage" someday.

Ok. I hope this idea hasn't been posted that way up to now. If it has, it wasn't my intention to steal anyone's idea, it really came up to my mind itself and I'm far too lazy to read the whole thread again. Please feel free to criticise my vision, I would love to discuss about it.

[Decorus]

Kabuto was slammed into the rock, because Rasengan acts like a bullet transfering all of its kinetic energy on the target knocking them back. Anyone who directly gets hit by Rasengan is knocked back depending on the amount of energy that is used to create the Rasengan. We have also seen Jiraiya drill a rasengan through a tree trunk so its not detonated on impact, but rather when the user decides to do so. You can tell when Naruto is pulling his Rasengan punch, because its usual impact would turn most of a person's internal organs into jelly.

[Decorus]

Naruto also doesn't use Hermit mode.... But Naruto did manage to make a FRS and begin attacking with it in the span of time it took for Kakazu to take out his distraction team of Kage Bunshin. So yeah Naruto can make it pretty quickly if he wants to.

[Anime Head 101]

One question: we all know that it hurts naruto when he uses ths FRS right.

So the question is why doesn't he use his clones when he uses the FRS.
(that would also give him enough time to create another one if he just happens to miss the 1st time.)

[gfire2]

i think he did against kazuku but dunno

[jodi]

One question: we all know that it hurts naruto when he uses ths FRS right.

So the question is why doesn't he use his clones when he uses the FRS.
(that would also give him enough time to create another one if he just happens to miss the 1st time.)

My guess is that if the bunshin uses it, it would "puff" in the first milisecond of the hit, and from what I've seen in naruto doing it on kakuzu, he needed to hang on the frs for it to work


i think he did against kazuku but dunno

no, he didn't

[lazyboyrod]

I dont think Naruto needs to hold on to the FRS at all, it just needs to hit, the first FRS was a failure because Naruto missed and he couldn't hold on to the form for too long!
Narto is shown here (http://http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/341/010-011/) making contact and then the next thing you know Kakuzu is blown (http://http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/341/012-013/) away, a clone could be dissapear with contact, but I think thats all Naruto needs, to make contact and its a done deal!

[Sasuke_Kai_92]

I wonder what the impact of Jiraiya's ultimate Rasengan would have on a person. We could have sene it but the absorber Pein absorbed it, or ate it whatever. That Rasengan was really big, it might have blown a massive hole through the ground the way it was going.

[Anime Head 101]

My guess is that if the bunshin uses it, it would "puff" in the first milisecond of the hit, and from what I've seen in naruto doing it on kakuzu, he needed to hang on the frs for it to work



no, he didn't

isn't that a good thing I mean if he makes contact with the FRS and then the clones disappears then he won't get hurt right.

[Decorus]

Think tomato paste.

[Sasuke_Kai_92]

*confused * ?

[Decorus]

Take a can of Tomato paste and a blender. The blender is Jiraiya's Ultimate Rasengan, the ninja hit by it is the can of tomato paste. Put the blender on puree then dump the tomato paste in. Then you have your visual reference for what would happen to a ninja hit by Jiraiya's Ultimate Rasengan.

Disclaimer:
If you are under the age of 18 don't try this at home, I don't want to get PM's from parents complaining about how I destroyed thier kitchen. Do it at a friend's house:)

[Raizen]

At the VOTE, when they first both clashed the rasengan vs chidori. Sasuke stated that he used a full-powered chidori whil naruto only used half the power because he was testing to see if sasuke was serious about killing him. Even w/ the rasengan at half the power against a full chidori, the attacks cancelled each other out. Had naruto been hell bent on using the true power of rasengan, sasuke would be dead and the manga would have been so much better!!! :)

[Decorus]

We don't know if Naruto used a full powered Rasengan or not, but considering the attacks canceled out its likely Naruto was deliberately underpowering them so he would not kill Sasuke. The last one did hurt Sasuke, because afterwards Sasuke is coughing up blood and in pain.

[Sasuke_Kai_92]

Take a can of Tomato paste and a blender. The blender is Jiraiya's Ultimate Rasengan, the ninja hit by it is the can of tomato paste. Put the blender on puree then dump the tomato paste in. Then you have your visual reference for what would happen to a ninja hit by Jiraiya's Ultimate Rasengan.

Disclaimer:
If you are under the age of 18 don't try this at home, I don't want to get PM's from parents complaining about how I destroyed thier kitchen. Do it at a friend's house:)

I get it now. ^_^ And I have done that before XD. But just didnt get what you meant the first time. You are right, that person would be splatted everywhere. :oh

My dad dont care lol. As long as I clean it after :p
[hr]

We don't know if Naruto used a full powered Rasengan or not, but considering the attacks canceled out its likely Naruto was deliberately underpowering them so he would not kill Sasuke. The last one did hurt Sasuke, because afterwards Sasuke is coughing up blood and in pain.

But then there was a Chidori which went through Naruto. And Sasuke was holding him up.

[Neuroff]

no, he didn't
Uh, yes he did. A KB made the second FRS that Naruto made against Kakuzu. For some reason the geniuses Kakashi and Tsunade can't figure out that Naruto could use KBs to use FRS, and instead banned him from using the jutsu.

[Huey Freeman]

Given that it causes so much damage, the clone might poof away before the hit.
[hr]

Uh, yes he did. A KB made the second FRS that Naruto made against Kakuzu. For some reason the geniuses Kakashi and Tsunade can't figure out that Naruto could use KBs to use FRS, and instead banned him from using the jutsu.

It's possible that was all an illusion...like the substitution jutsu.

[Shiro-kun]

He very well did it
But we never got to see the full extent of the shadow clones attack

It would be interesting to see if he attacked with shadow clones because he can divert the damage that he takes with his arm

and its very possible as the Naruto's shadow clone went four tails

[Neuroff]

It's possible that was all an illusion...like the substitution jutsu.
Except Yamato even confirms that Naruto used 3 FRS. It's not an illusion, you might as well say the whole manga was genjutsu.

[jodi]

no
Naruto used kage bunshin but didn't hit Kakuzu as a KB, but himself instead

what I said is that the FRS is almost a tiny explosion followed y a greater explosion
so, if Naruto was a KB, he would poof away with the first "explosion", by that, the jutsu would stop there and not go on with the second blast.

[Anime Head 101]

no
Naruto used kage bunshin but didn't hit Kakuzu as a KB, but himself instead

what I said is that the FRS is almost a tiny explosion followed y a greater explosion
so, if Naruto was a KB, he would poof away with the first "explosion", by that, the jutsu would stop there and not go on with the second blast.

Because Kakuzu stopped the clone before he had a chance

[jodi]

Because Kakuzu stopped the clone before he had a chance

Naruto forseen it, thats why he ran after Kakuzu's back

[Anime Head 101]

^^^^ Know this

but i'm saying if the clone would have been able to make contact Kakuzu probaly would still be dead but Naruto be okay since he wasn't the one to actually hit Kakuzu with it

(Basically I don't think that the clone would have poofed away)

[Neuroff]

no
Naruto used kage bunshin but didn't hit Kakuzu as a KB, but himself instead

what I said is that the FRS is almost a tiny explosion followed y a greater explosion
so, if Naruto was a KB, he would poof away with the first "explosion", by that, the jutsu would stop there and not go on with the second blast.
I don't even get where you're getting this crap about tiny explosion followed by a greater explosion. If you're talking about when it fizzled out before, that was just a misfire. That's now how FRS works.

[SoulReaporKoul]

I assumed that any damage occurring to the clones get applied to Naruto once they go POOF, unless I'm remembering it wrong? And even if it wasn't explicitly said, I think that's the case because clearly their is some link between the two seen in twice in Shippuden. The first time is when Naruto begins to turn into the kyubii while fighting Deidra, as there were physical changes happening to Naruto, physical changes and pain were felt by the KBs implying at the very least some sort of physical link between the both. Although you could argue that that case was special as something was happening to the original and the KB are just copies, that is not the case in the second instance, which is during Naruto's 1000 clone training. Basically whenever a clone learned something, he dispelled the jutsu and all Naruto's gained that clone's experience, and since he was learning through his body, this means that whatever the clone felt physically when it succeeded, all others felt it too, so doesn't that mean that whatever happens to the clones reverts back to Naruto once the Jutsu is dispelled (whether by him or whomever he is fighting), thus it wouldn't matter which Naruto used the FR as he would still feel the damage from it once KBs are dispelled

[lazyboyrod]

no
Naruto used kage bunshin but didn't hit Kakuzu as a KB, but himself instead

what I said is that the FRS is almost a tiny explosion followed y a greater explosion
so, if Naruto was a KB, he would poof away with the first "explosion", by that, the jutsu would stop there and not go on with the second blast.

I only saw one explosion, I think you better check the chapter again!

[Neuroff]

I assumed that any damage occurring to the clones get applied to Naruto once they go POOF, unless I'm remembering it wrong? And even if it wasn't explicitly said, I think that's the case because clearly their is some link between the two seen in twice in Shippuden. The first time is when Naruto begins to turn into the kyubii while fighting Deidra, as there were physical changes happening to Naruto, physical changes and pain were felt by the KBs implying at the very least some sort of physical link between the both. Although you could argue that that case was special as something was happening to the original and the KB are just copies, that is not the case in the second instance, which is during Naruto's 1000 clone training. Basically whenever a clone learned something, he dispelled the jutsu and all Naruto's gained that clone's experience, and since he was learning through his body, this means that whatever the clone felt physically when it succeeded, all others felt it too, so doesn't that mean that whatever happens to the clones reverts back to Naruto once the Jutsu is dispelled (whether by him or whomever he is fighting), thus it wouldn't matter which Naruto used the FR as he would still feel the damage from it once KBs are dispelled
Damage doesn't transfer or Naruto would have died a long time ago. He's had thousands of clones get stabbed, shot, etc.

[ornis]

Re: Clones using FRS

Re: Does Naruto need a more powerful Rasengan?

It's best to keep Rasengan topics in this thread, so those latest Rasengan threads were merged with this mega-convo.

[SoulReaporKoul]

I assumed that any damage occurring to the clones get applied to Naruto once they go POOF, unless I'm remembering it wrong? And even if it wasn't explicitly said, I think that's the case because clearly their is some link between the two seen in twice in Shippuden. The first time is when Naruto begins to turn into the kyubii while fighting Deidra, as there were physical changes happening to Naruto, physical changes and pain were felt by the KBs implying at the very least some sort of physical link between the both. Although you could argue that that case was special as something was happening to the original and the KB are just copies, that is not the case in the second instance, which is during Naruto's 1000 clone training. Basically whenever a clone learned something, he dispelled the jutsu and all Naruto's gained that clone's experience, and since he was learning through his body, this means that whatever the clone felt physically when it succeeded, all others felt it too, so doesn't that mean that whatever happens to the clones reverts back to Naruto once the Jutsu is dispelled (whether by him or whomever he is fighting), thus it wouldn't matter which Naruto used the FR as he would still feel the damage from it once KBs are dispelled


Damage doesn't transfer or Naruto would have died a long time ago. He's had thousands of clones get stabbed, shot, etc.

That wouldn't be the case if we consider the clones being only a fraction of Naruto then all damage would be only a fraction of the actual damage and also it would depend on how much Chakra Naruto gives to his KB (ie split 15% of his chakra with his clones while he keeps 85%) therefore it would be insignigicant (well not totally but better than feeling the full force)

[Neuroff]

That wouldn't be the case if we consider the clones being only a fraction of Naruto then all damage would be only a fraction of the actual damage and also it would depend on how much Chakra Naruto gives to his KB (ie split 15% of his chakra with his clones while he keeps 85%) therefore it would be insignigicant (well not totally but better than feeling the full force)
He doesn't take damage from clones. If you need an example, look at Naruto vs. Gaara. Gaara stomps out 2000 KB (the fractional transfer would be 99.95%) when he transforms. If Naruto took even half of that damage, he would have been knocked out.

[SoulReaporKoul]

He doesn't take damage from clones. If you need an example, look at Naruto vs. Gaara. Gaara stomps out 2000 KB (the fractional transfer would be 99.95%) when he transforms. If Naruto took even half of that damage, he would have been knocked out.

My reasoning is that he shares evenly with his clones, but not when it compares to himself, although all the clones have the same amount of chakra put together it might make up a total of MAYBE 50% of Naruto's chakra, therefore Naruto just gets 50% damage

[Neuroff]

Chakra is split evenly between them all. Naruto doesn't take their damage, you can see it in muiltiple instances, it's very clear.

[Decorus]

Naruto's clones are an exact physical match for him and have the same chakra so his clones can go tailed just like he can. Why Naruto felt pain when his clone went all 4 tailed is unknown, but Naruto does not take damage or feel pain from his Kage Bunshin normally.

[ornis]

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/277/07/

Via the above link, notice that many Kage Bunshin disappear around one central Naruto.

Now, via the next link, notice that the central Naruto becomes kyuubified:

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/277/08/

This Naruto is not responding to a hot sensation, as if the feeling is overwhelming, even though this Naruto is bubbling forth two tails. Authentic Naruto is only known to sprout tails. Kage Bunshin have never been seen doing this.

Furthermore, in this link (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/277/09/), another Naruto bends over in agony... yet, this Naruto lacks any tails (a condition that feels commonplace [{evidently, but not absolutely} KB != tail grower])... the central Naruto is the real Naruto. Naruto's Kage Bunshin can perceive the kyuubification of the real Naruto as a burning sensation, and they express the burn in a gut-holding/bent-over/nearly-debilitated fashion. Not the same picture applies to authentic Naruto.
[hr]
Even more, what we observe in ch. 232 (p. 08 (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/232/08/)) is authentic Naruto losing an arm's function--but not falling over from pain.

[Franckie]

Authentic Naruto is only known to sprout tails. Kage Bunshin have never been seen doing this.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/329/02/

[Black/Light]

The page before that hits the point harder. .

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/329/01/

"We have another one turning into a 9 tails!"

[Decorus]

You were saying
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/329/

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/329/03/

Clones can become tailed....
Just like Clones can grow fangs and claws.
I'm pretty sure that the two tailed there is a clone while the original is with Kakashi....

[Rahan]

You were saying
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/329/

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/329/03/

Clones can become tailed....
Just like Clones can grow fangs and claws.
I'm pretty sure that the two tailed there is a clone while the original is with Kakashi....

And it also proves that Naruto has strictly no control over the tails. He is still conscious when he is below 4 tails, but he can't turn the damn thing off and that's why Kakashi had to use his scroll to cool down Naruto while he was only at 3 tails or Yamato had to interfere here.

[Decorus]

I've only been saying that since Naruto started growing tails.
Do people listen?
Nope....

Also on 329 page 1 isn't that Naruto doing a one handed Rasengan and trying to add elemental wind chakra to it?

[ornis]

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/329/02/

This is appreciated. I apologize for my error. My correction follows:
[hr]
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/277/07/

Via the above link, notice that many Kage Bunshin disappear around one central Naruto.

Now, via the next link, notice that the central Naruto becomes kyuubified:

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/277/08/

This Naruto is not responding to a hot sensation, as if the feeling is overwhelming, even though this Naruto is bubbling forth two tails. Authentic Naruto is only known to sprout tails without complaining about it. Kage Bunshin have never been seen doing this.

Furthermore, in this link (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/277/09/), another Naruto bends over in agony... even without tails (a condition that is not just commonplace [{possibilities include} KB==complaining tail grower OR KB==kyuubified complainer])... the central Naruto probably is the real Naruto. Naruto's Kage Bunshin can perceive the kyuubification of the real Naruto as a burning sensation, and they express the burn in a gut-holding/bent-over/nearly-debilitated/wailing fashion. Not the same picture applies to authentic Naruto.
[hr]
Even more, what we observe in ch. 232 (p. 08 (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/232/08/)) is authentic Naruto losing an arm's function--but not falling over from pain.
[hr]
Thanks for proving the first case of the above argument wrong. Next time, I'll be more thorough in supporting an argument that I decide to offer.

Post-revision Reflection:

The contrast still feels unmistakable. I do correct my error and state that the unimaginable pain Kage Bunshin have endured has never made Naruto complain. This merely means he may or may not sustain the same pain felt by KB upon kyuubification. But, when Kyuubi's power overwhelms the real Naruto, he doesn't retract and/or roar in pain.

Also... why don't any of the clones complain about a burning sensation in ch. 329's featured qualitative/elemental recomposition training? Note that the real Naruto doesn't gripe either:

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/329/03/

I think this further helps to define the effect of kyuubification in 277.

In 329, Naruto simply falls to the grown, taken aback---but he's not shaking and wincing (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/277/09/). And Kakashi later consoles Naruto in 277 (following the suppression of kyuubification in that chapter), and Kakashi asks if Naruto has calmed down... why would he ask someone previously bending over in pain, "Have you calmed down?" I'd say the question doesn't suit the inquired clone/person who's cringing if another clone/person just uncontrollably sprouted tails.

Furthermore, why ask the clone as if it is Naruto... I may perceive the context of "calmed down" inappropriately. What would anyone else think it implies--relaxed from emotional transformation or relaxed from curling in discomfort?

[lazyboyrod]

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/277/07/

Via the above link, notice that many Kage Bunshin disappear around one central Naruto.

Now, via the next link, notice that the central Naruto becomes kyuubified:

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/277/08/

This Naruto is not responding to a hot sensation, as if the feeling is overwhelming, even though this Naruto is bubbling forth two tails. Authentic Naruto is only known to sprout tails. Kage Bunshin have never been seen doing this.

Furthermore, in this link (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/277/09/), another Naruto bends over in agony... yet, this Naruto lacks any tails (a condition that feels commonplace [{evidently, but not absolutely} KB =! tail grower])... the central Naruto is the real Naruto. Naruto's Kage Bunshin can perceive the kyuubification of the real Naruto as a burning sensation, and they express the burn in a gut-holding/bent-over/nearly-debilitated fashion. Not the same picture applies to authentic Naruto.
<hr noshade size="1">
Even more, what we observe in ch. 232 (p. 08 (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/232/08/)) is authentic Naruto losing an arm's function--but not falling over from pain.

Well then how would you explain this (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/329/) where none of the clones are affected and then this (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/329/02/) when he goes tree-tailed and none of the clones seem to be affected.
ps: Not to put so much pressure on you, im sure it was just overlookedby Kish O0

[ornis]

This possibility could fit: Clones aren't affected unless Naruto is the one transforming.

Also, please cite my revised argument (above you). The one you have quoted has been proven fallacious, and it can therefore be found irrelevant (except as an example of fraudulence).

[Decorus]

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/232/06-07/

Shows Sasuke is injured by the CS2, but since this mention it has not been further brought up. The point maybe moot now that the cursed seal has apparently disappeared upon Orochimaru's death at the hands of Itachi.

[khar2]

yes it hurted him couse he was using his seal whole battle and still he didnt master it, if you look closely battle against dei, he is turning on and of it all the time during the battle

[Huey Freeman]

So.....here's a thought I'd like some feedback on. I was thinking that maybe Naruto continues to use clones for his rasengan because that makes his rasengan more compressed (and therefore more destructive) than others. Like Jiraiya says here (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/154/14/).

[sabret00the]

After back-reading a few chapters. i've come to the conclusion that the finished Rasangen will simply be a sealing technique. i.e. in it's current form is cuts all the chakra lines and blows up the enemy, but it it's completed form, it will leave the enemy perfectly healthy just sealed in his/her body and unable to create chakra. We know that Minato was a seal expert and so that makes sense to me.


So.....here's a thought I'd like some feedback on. I was thinking that maybe Naruto continues to use clones for his rasengan because that makes his rasengan more compressed (and therefore more destructive) than others. Like Jiraiya says here (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/154/14/).a few chapters later, tsunade says the same thing. but i don't think naruto uses the KB on purpose. for him it's more a matter of complacency. he needs to enter a phase of striving to improve his current jutsu and hasn't gone through that. he accidentally stumbled on a method to do it with two bodies (hence why when attempting to do it with the wind element, the idea to use a third body wasn't a natural occurrence) and hasn't looked back since. he needs to do that but whether he will or not i don't know. it's actually weird though considering in the beginning he was worried about chakra conservation but would willing half his chakra per rasangen. that said, we've seen great growth in regards to naruto. before he would try an overwhelm his enemies with numbers, however now he's using less numbers more decisively.

[bean]

After back-reading a few chapters. i've come to the conclusion that the finished Rasangen will simply be a sealing technique. i.e. in it's current form is cuts all the chakra lines and blows up the enemy, but it it's completed form, it will leave the enemy perfectly healthy just sealed in his/her body and unable to create chakra. We know that Minato was a seal expert and so that makes sense to me.

a few chapters later, tsunade says the same thing. but i don't think naruto uses the KB on purpose. for him it's more a matter of complacency. he needs to enter a phase of striving to improve his current jutsu and hasn't gone through that. he accidentally stumbled on a method to do it with two bodies (hence why when attempting to do it with the wind element, the idea to use a third body wasn't a natural occurrence) and hasn't looked back since. he needs to do that but whether he will or not i don't know. it's actually weird though considering in the beginning he was worried about chakra conservation but would willing half his chakra per rasangen. that said, we've seen great growth in regards to naruto. before he would try an overwhelm his enemies with numbers, however now he's using less numbers more decisively.

I can't see that happening...rasengan seems to be a bomb to some extent...I don't see how it goes from highly explosive to not explosive at all but it seals....I'm sure there's a sealing jutsu out there that can do what you're saying the rasengan will do.

[lazyboyrod]

After back-reading a few chapters. i've come to the conclusion that the finished Rasangen will simply be a sealing technique. i.e. in it's current form is cuts all the chakra lines and blows up the enemy, but it it's completed form, it will leave the enemy perfectly healthy just sealed in his/her body and unable to create chakra. We know that Minato was a seal expert and so that makes sense to me.

I dont think so, althought the FRS does attack on the cellular level, it is also a huge explosion

[Raizen]

I dont think so, althought the FRS does attack on the cellular level, it is also a huge explosion
Yeah rasengan is definitely not going to be a sealing jutsu.

I really hope somehow he can compress the power of rasengan into the size of a ping-pong ball and be able to throw and in a given time it will explode regardless of hitting the enemy before hand or not. That would make rasengan a lot more versatile.

[segua]

I think what sabret00the was trying to say was that the final fuuton rashuriken will destroy a person's ability to use chakra and render them useless as a shinobi. Well, that is if anyone survives being hit with the completed fuuton rashuriken. Kinda reminds me of what Kurapika's did to the leader of the Spider gang or so. I wonder if Pein will be rendered into a regular Joe Schmoe?

[Marq]

I think what sabret00the was trying to say was that the final fuuton rashuriken will destroy a person's ability to use chakra and render them useless as a shinobi. Well, that is if anyone survives being hit with the completed fuuton rashuriken. Kinda reminds me of what Kurapika's did to the leader of the Spider gang or so. I wonder if Pein will be rendered into a regular Joe Schmoe?

hahaha, interesting.. never though of that. the FRS bringing down the "god" into a mere mortal.

Poetic justice at it's finest!

[sabret00the]

I can't see that happening...rasengan seems to be a bomb to some extent...I don't see how it goes from highly explosive to not explosive at all but it seals....I'm sure there's a sealing jutsu out there that can do what you're saying the rasengan will do.
Well my thinking is that the original Rasangen pushes the enemy away leaving Naruto perfectly in tact/ The FRS explodes doing some damage to Naruto and destroying the user. But why would it go to the trouble of destroying chakra lines if it can ultimately just blow them up? I'm thinking that once it's completed and harnessed. it will do what it done to the water tank; enter in a small hole then explode within them only destroying chakra lines and perhaps knocking them out too. think of it like a nail bomb you'd throw into a building.

[KnuckleheadedNinja]

Well my thinking is that the original Rasangen pushes the enemy away leaving Naruto perfectly in tact/ The FRS explodes doing some damage to Naruto and destroying the user. But why would it go to the trouble of destroying chakra lines if it can ultimately just blow them up? I'm thinking that once it's completed and harnessed. it will do what it done to the water tank; enter in a small hole then explode within them only destroying chakra lines and perhaps knocking them out too. think of it like a nail bomb you'd throw into a building.

i think once it done it would be something that he can throw from mid range because a 50% FRS already damage his hand badly and 100% complete FRS will completely destory his hand.

[lazyboyrod]

hahaha, interesting.. never though of that. the FRS bringing down the "god" into a mere mortal.

Poetic justice at it's finest!

Then he will just have to use his taijutsu expertise to defend himself lol!

[Ninja I'm 4 Real]

is it possible to add any element to the Rasengan?

Suiton-RasenShuriken
Raiton-RasenShuriken
Katon -RasenShuriken
Doton- RasenShuriken?????

changed title for a better understanding

[TanukiUdon]

I don`t see why not.

[Exodi]

A better question is: what would happen when you finally add an element (besides wind) to Rasengan?

I can't even begin imagining what you'd get with Doton...

[segua]

You might get a drill to drill the heavens? It would be something worth seeing though.

[Razh]

You might get a drill to drill the heavens? It would be something worth seeing though.

Lol, good one.

If most jonin can controll at least two elements then I don't see why Naruto wouldn't be able to create another variant of Rasengan using the same training method.

[Wannabe]

Because Kakashi says here (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/334/17/) that it shouldn't be possible to use high level elemental techniques unless the person is affiliated with that element. While overall it should be possible for someone to place an element besides wind into Rasengan, finding someone besides Naruto who could pull it off would be difficult. You don't see Kakashi or Sasuke using earth/fire/water adaptions of Raikiri and Chidori.

Doton: Rasengan...a spiraling compacted sphere of dirt. Getting hit with it would be like getting into a therapeutic whirlpool mud bath. :p

[Razh]

And yet Sasuke uses high leveled fire and lightning jutsus.

All I said is that it was possible. You can't really dismiss things like that in Naruto.

[Eddy01741]

I think you could combine Rasengan with any element (since the fourth made it as a jutsu to combine with elemental recomposition, since it's basically pure spatial recomposition of chakra). That said, I don't think they would all turn out being rasen-shuriken, personally, the way I see it is that fuuton is the easiest element to imagine being combined with rasengan, since the nature of rasengan is just spinning chakra, then adding wind chakra is just adding spinning air in theory. Anyhow, it would be nice to see rasengan combined with other elements and its effects.

[Castriota]

Because Kakashi says here (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/334/17/) that it shouldn't be possible to use high level elemental techniques unless the person is affiliated with that element. While overall it should be possible for someone to place an element besides wind into Rasengan, finding someone besides Naruto who could pull it off would be difficult. You don't see Kakashi or Sasuke using earth/fire/water adaptions of Raikiri and Chidori.

thats because the raikiri and the chidori are already has the elemental composition. while the rasengan just has the spatial without the elemental. so that doesn't really work. and i bet you could put any type of element with it, which might be improbable if you aren't naruto.

[segua]

Ya know what, I want to see what Pain could pull off using rasengan or rather Nagato.

[Raizen]

U could definitely put other elements besides wind to the rasengan but the thing is only a handful of ninjas can do it. Rasengan is already a technique that took spatial manipulation to the highest level so adding nature is extremely difficult. Perhaps naruto was the only one who could do it. Perhaps J-man and Minato could do it too but still it is only a handful

As for earth to the rasengan, I think it would be like a earhtquake in the palm. Getting hit would break all organs and bones of the enemy

[Forever_Melody]

thats because the raikiri and the chidori are already has the elemental composition.
What he meant was that you don't see someone using another element with the shape of Chidori/Raikiri. For example, you don't see someone using a fire fist or something of the like to pierce someone.

Theoretically, yes you can add another element into Rasengan because Rasengan is only a shape. It's like saying there is a dragon shaped blast of every element(Karyuudan, Suiryuuudan, Doryuudan etc.) because the dragon shape is merely that, a shape.

In the same way, Rasengan's nature can be molded into different things.

But.... would it advantageous?

I ask because Rasengan has a far more specific and complex shape than other jutsus. For example, a ball is an easy shape to achieve and can probably cope with many elements, but would something like Rasengan be able to? It's like a spinning tornado, so anything non-corporeal like fire, wind and lightning can probably mesh well with it, but to what effect? For Earth or Water, it's probable also possible, but it might be more iffy.

For example, stone doesn't really move so I have a hard time imagining a ball of rotating rock :darn (in my mind, it just looks like a normal rock, but it's spinning lol :p)

For water, that is more probable though. Although what would spinning water do to the enemy? Suiton so far has had it's power drawn from a pressurized blast of water. Having rotating water like Rasengan would be doubtful as to the actual damage it'd do.

I mean, it's all possible obviously, but IMO, we don't know of the extent of each element enough to realize what'd happen once it'd incorporate into Rasengan. I mean, Lightning has a cutting property(as shown by Chidori/Raikiri) so who's to say it wouldn't give something similar to FRS, but with Raiton blades instead of Fuuton ones?

Or how about Suiton? We've seen Suiton can cut if the water is pressurized and concentrated enough. So maybe that would yield something similar as well?

So in conclusion, yes it's very well possible, but it's not like we can really fathom what it'd give. Even Naruto, Kakshi and everyone else didn't know what adding wind to Rasengan would yield.

[Eddy01741]

I prefer to think of the aftereffects of a doton rasengan as getting "stoned", literally. You get small rocks flying at extrodinary speeds pelt you to death lol.

THat's probably the only way I could imagine a doton rasengan, since you obviously can't have huge stuff like boulders revolving around a chakra ball the size of a baseball, buthaving particles as small as dust doing that would have a similar or worse effect than the fuuton rasengan.

I agree with Raizen in saying only a handful of ninjas could even combine a single element with rasengan. Kakashi tried and he couldn't, the fourth was trying but he was killed before he could finish. So it must be a very hard task, only Naruto with his rock hard determination and huge chakra (for shadow clone training) could pull it off in a reasonable amount of time.

I'm sure somebody like Kakashi could eventually make a Raiton Rasengan if he devoted like 10 years of training to just doing that, but he probably has more stuff to train on (variations of raikiri/chidori, mastering his MS further, etc.).

[hirou]

I can't say a thing about appearance, but let's think about function. Wind Rasengan, if I remember correctly, cuts each and every nerve connection by wind's cutting chakra. What do we know about other elemental jutsus?
I.e. earth. It's 3 30am in Moscow and I'm too lazy to look for proof, but, from my memory, basic function of practically all earth jutsus was hardness of smth (stone skin, hardened sand and so on). What if Earth Rasengan harden each and every cell membrane in the body? (I'm biologist ;) ) The effect will be: person -> statue.
As for all the types:
Wind -> cuts nerve connections -> paralysis
Earth ->? hardens cell membranes -> petrification
Fire ->? incinerates cell connections and generate pressure -> body explodes from inside
Water ->? swells either cells or intercellular space -> body either bursts like a balloon of water or half-liquifies, loses any form and turns into amorphous pool of bioplasma (Scary! O_o)
Lightning -? overloads neuron connections -> paralysis (can't imagine something more original)

What do you think?

[kkck]

This is rather complicated. Naruto has used a futon rasengan and it didnt appear to have any cutting ability like FRS. IMO the rasengan infused with an element simply becomes absirdly more powerfull while getting some property from the infused element. On the other hand an elemental rasengan variation should get a more extreme effect which would be specific to the element infused.

For example, the FR was shown to be a more powerfull version of rasengan while the FRS was shown to have all the properties of rasengan plus a extreme version of the wind element power. The normal use of wind (as explained by asuma) is to cut by creating thinner and thinner blades. The FRS takes this to the extreme by creating microscopic blades which destroy cells.

If the same logic is used for other elemental rasengans, then I think they would go something like this:

Suiton rasengan: Effects of rasengan plus crushing the oponent in a water whirpool with enormous water preasure.

Raiton rasengan: Raiton seems to focus on piercing and paralizing so I think this rasengan would pierce the oponent from every direction while paralizing him. Basically a cruder version of a FRS since raiton doesnt seem to depend on thin blades but rather on the concentration of the electricity.

Katon rasengan: Fire's function seems rather more obvious than others: to burn. I thinkthis rasengan would burn the oponent inside out(given the properties of rasengan) leaving the body looking similar to charcoal.

Earth rasengan: I am not sure as to what special use earth has. So far rather than being used as an offensive move it has been used to modify the sorroundinds.

[ninjabot]

The rasengan doesn't necessarily have to make contact with the enemy. What if the ninja just slams a douton Rasengan into the ground to make a Tsunade-like quake of boulders that barrel toward the enemy?

Also, the statement about Minato making Rasengan inorder to mix it with his own element doesn't mean that his element was wind, or that the other elements can effectively be combined with it. If he indeed was aligned to wind then he could've succeeded in making FRS (provided he didn't die before he could figure out the specifics) Kakashi stated he tried to add his alignment to Rasengan and failed aswell.

Whether that's because Raiton is simply incompatible, or Kakashi sucks at elemental recomposition (which is just wrong) is up to interpretation.

[Toibirama Senju]

Yeah but do u people think that we'll ever get to see a another element added to the Rasengan other than wind. if we do i'm think it wud be water of fire. I guess we have to wait. but i want Naruto to learn earth or water or possibly both.
[hr]
i mean if he can collect natural energy while moving this shudnt be an issue

[XxVascoxX]

Harden each and every cell membrane in the body? (I'm biologist ;) ) The effect will be: person -> statue.
As for all the types:
Wind -> cuts nerve connections -> paralysis
Earth ->? hardens cell membranes -> petrification
Fire ->? incinerates cell connections and generate pressure -> body explodes from inside
Water ->? swells either cells or intercellular space -> body either bursts like a balloon of water or half-liquifies, loses any form and turns into amorphous pool of bioplasma (Scary! O_o)
Lightning -? overloads neuron connections -> paralysis (can't imagine something more original)

What do you think?
I actually like that theory and it does sound quite logical..
But it would just refer to the attributes of any Elemental .

Even if it is possible to create different elemental rasengan it doesn't mean that Naruto will master all of them.

[hirou]

Even if it is possible to create different elemental rasengan it doesn't mean that Naruto will master all of them.

Never seen that in a wildest horror dream. Naruto is olready overpowered several times IMHO (PLOT-KAI!!!). But if we'll have a chance to face real Nagato with free access to every type of chakra...

[Jspot]

Well, I'd imagine his second element, possibly.

[kkck]

@ hirou
I dont think all the rasengans have to strike at a cellular level though. As I said a few post ago, I think each elemental version of FRS should take the factor in which each element is the strongest to the absurd (such as with wind to create thousands of microscopics blades or needles). In that sense we lack information as to what is the best usage of each element, but with what has been shown I think we can get a general idea of them.

[Eddy01741]

Completely agreed with kkck on the post above. As Asuma explained, wind chakra is formed by rubbing it closer and closer together to make a sharper blade. So the mastery level of this would be so small that it would attack at a cellular level. Now, it attacks the cells of the opponent's organs as well as everything else (hey, you have to cut through the skin cells and artery/veins to get to vital organ cells), so they'll still end up as a bloody mess as Kakuzu was, that and they would be suffering from paralysis (severed nerve endings and cells, etc.) as well as heavy internal bleeding.

Now, I don't know if the same goes for every other element. We don't know the eh... "goal" of each element, the goal of wind chakra is to make an increasingly sharp edge, which gets down to the microscopic level as Naruto showed. We don't know how you make say... katon jutsus more powerful other than making them bigger (as stated by Sasuke's father when teaching him grand fireball jutsu, and as shown when Sasuke's bigger, CS charged grand fireball overwhelmed Itachi's lesser grand fireball (until he used amaterasu to overwhelm sasuke)). Perhaps the goal of fire chakra is increased volume/area, so it creates greater destruction. So maybe a katon rasengan varient might make some huge fireball, possibly ending up in a larger area of effect than naruto's fuuton rasenshuriken.

[Belisar]

Because Kakashi says here (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/334/17/) that it shouldn't be possible to use high level elemental techniques unless the person is affiliated with that element. While overall it should be possible for someone to place an element besides wind into Rasengan, finding someone besides Naruto who could pull it off would be difficult. You don't see Kakashi or Sasuke using earth/fire/water adaptions of Raikiri and Chidori.

Doton: Rasengan...a spiraling compacted sphere of dirt. Getting hit with it would be like getting into a therapeutic whirlpool mud bath. :p
killerbee could learn it.

[HMHaku]

It's very possible, because the Rasengan is basically a blank canvas waiting for paint to be thrown onto it.

Likely? Not really. If Naruto can master another element we could see 1 more type of Rasengan, but besides that it isn't likely we'll see all the variations possible.

Another question, 2 Elements at once (Water&Earth=Wood) being added into the Rasengan? Hmmm..

[segua]

I would liken the rasengan to a paint mixer just waiting for another color to be thrown in.

[Eddy01741]

Well, that is what the fourth designed it to be. It was what I would call half of an "ultimate ninjutsu". So rasengan is basically the pinnacle of spatial recomposition, so now just add elemental recomposition to combine the two. With a skilled enough ninja, the highest level of elemental recomposition will be combined with the highest level of spatial recomposition to create probably the most powerful ninjutsu.

It would be interesting to see a kekkai genkai of Haku or Yamato/Shodaime's type tried to be combined with rasengan though. An ice/wood rasengan? It'd be an interesting result lol.

[HMHaku]

Well, that is what the fourth designed it to be. It was what I would call half of an "ultimate ninjutsu". So rasengan is basically the pinnacle of spatial recomposition, so now just add elemental recomposition to combine the two. With a skilled enough ninja, the highest level of elemental recomposition will be combined with the highest level of spatial recomposition to create probably the most powerful ninjutsu.

It would be interesting to see a kekkai genkai of Haku or Yamato/Shodaime's type tried to be combined with rasengan though. An ice/wood rasengan? It'd be an interesting result lol.
Yes, a very interesting result, and I would assume it would be even stronger then putting just one element in.

Though, I suppose technically, that is still putting just one element..just formed out of 2..hm.

Regardless, it would be cool.

[monkey D luffy]

hmm raiton is already created its called chidori!
kakashi said that he used rasengan and then added lightning.
as for suiton i believe that a version of the vortex kakashi used against zabuza?
doton is a tricky one but if you keep spiraling earth it become unstable so maybe some kind of earthquake jutsu?
katon is demonstrated in 1 of the naruto video games and is used by jiraya there i think its best described there

[◆ T.D.A ◆]

You can add wind to it. :p Maybe water as well.

[Natoma]

hmm raiton is already created its called chidori!
kakashi said that he used rasengan and then added lightning.
as for suiton i believe that a version of the vortex kakashi used against zabuza?
doton is a tricky one but if you keep spiraling earth it become unstable so maybe some kind of earthquake jutsu?
katon is demonstrated in 1 of the naruto video games and is used by jiraya there i think its best described there

Chidori isn't a Raiton Rasengan. Kakashi was unable to combine his element with Rasengan, which is why he created Chidori in the first place.

[Forever_Melody]

Well Rasengan's Shape is said to be the apex of spacial recomposition in the sense that its shape is extremely complex, to the point that it needs to be constantly maintained. The shape is so complex that even without elemental recomposition, it is capable of the A rank and is in itself a formidable jutsu. Add in elemental recomposition and you've basically got the best of both worlds.

Mind you, this doesn't make Rasengan the perfect jutsu, but it certainly puts it very high.

I mean, other jutsus of higher elemental caliber also have very complex elemental & spatial recompositions.

For example, Deidara's C4 combines Doton recomposition with the complex art that is Deidara's bombs, which as Deidara explained it, is a combination of refined linework mixed with 2 dimensional deformation. I don't know for you guys, but that sounds like an awfully complex shape manipulation as well no? lol :p

Or take Kisame's Bakousouha for example, the pure elemental recomposition needed to turn that much chakra into that much water is extreme, causing a jutsu of such massive power.

In theory, Rasengan stands on top because of its complex shape, which so far has been shown to be among the most complex we've seen for a jutsu.

Now the question is if the rotational form of Rasengan can accommodate every element.

After all, I doubt Deidara's bombs would work with all the elements as well as it would with Doton.

[Eddy01741]

Once again, I find myself questioning what is the pinnacle of each elemental recomposition. For fuuton we know that it is forming your wind chakra into thinner and thinner blades (which FRS brings to such a thin blade that it can cut individual cells), but for other elements, we have no idea.

[Forever_Melody]

Once again, I find myself questioning what is the pinnacle of each elemental recomposition. For fuuton we know that it is forming your wind chakra into thinner and thinner blades (which FRS brings to such a thin blade that it can cut individual cells), but for other elements, we have no idea.

Well not necessarily. Fuuton is used mainly for its cutting ability yes, but we've seen by jutsus such as Fuuton: Muggensajin Daitoppa, Fuuton: Atsuugai and Fuuton: Rekkudan, that Fuuton can also be used for its concussive abilities rather thans imply it's cutting abilities.

It's the same as Raiton, which can be used for its shocking abilities as well as its piercing abilities(in Chidori's/Raikiri's case).

[Delbi]

I don't think there is any reason that a Rasengan can't be fused with another element. All a Rasengan is, is spiraling chakra, adding another element to it in the same fasion Naruto did seems possible, it would just take practice and amazing chakra control, or in Naruto's case, literally the chakra control of three people.

[Forever_Melody]

I don't think there is any reason that a Rasengan can't be fused with another element. All a Rasengan is, is spiraling chakra, adding another element to it in the same fasion Naruto did seems possible, it would just take practice and amazing chakra control, or in Naruto's case, literally the chakra control of three people.

It can theoretically, but the rotating shape must be taken into account and this shape probably makes better use of some particular elements' properties more than others.

Just as I'm sure Deidara's weird art could be applied to Suiton or something(to make nice little water animals), I'm not sure it'd be as effective as blowing up water wouldn't yield the same effect.

[roninmedia]

Think of the Rasengan training and the overall result. It's the rotaton and compression that generate the power.

Earth? Difficult to compress and rotate to get enough power because of it's mass.
Lightning? Repulsion of charge makes it hard to shape.
Fire? The fire being compressed would rob it of oxygen and even if you get past that, a user breaks concentration and some oxygen is introduced suddenly you get a massive flare.

Besides, getting a ball to hold those 3 elements. Wow.


But Lightning > Earth.

[KnuckleheadedNinja]

I think we have to remember that Kakashi intention was to train Naruto how to combine an element to Rasengan, he didn't know Naruto was going to have affinity to wind. I think that alone answer the question been ask, yes Rasengan can be combine with any element. Kakashi intention was to help Naruto combine which ever affinity he have with the Rasengan, his affinity could have been any other element beside wind and Kakashi would have still continue the training.

[WereMongoose]

Think of the Rasengan training and the overall result. It's the rotaton and compression that generate the power.

Earth? Difficult to compress and rotate to get enough power because of it's mass.
Lightning? Repulsion of charge makes it hard to shape.
Fire? The fire being compressed would rob it of oxygen and even if you get past that, a user breaks concentration and some oxygen is introduced suddenly you get a massive flare.

Besides, getting a ball to hold those 3 elements. Wow.


But Lightning > Earth.

Your assumptions may be right for the first two, but you explanation for fire may not. Remember a fire jutsu's source is not air itself but chakra. As said earlier, chakra can be formed into an element, such as with Kisame, and to a greater extent the Second Hokage, with his ability to create it out of thin air around himself. The fire could be fueled with chakra. And compressing something doesn't mean that oxygen can't get to it either. Your making it out that something fully material like rubber balloon skin is holding it in, when it is more like the rotational force of the chakra, sort of like gravity affects things, that is compressing it.
Either chakra needs to be kept pumping, there is air to fuel it, or you just have to use it really fast like the rasenshuriken. I'd go with the really fast bit, because you don't need to have it out forever, after all if you did, you wouldn't really be that good at hitting something with your own hand. Eh, but what are we talking science for, Naruto has it's own laws, because quite frankly chidori shouldn't pierce by material spearing type power, because it's energy not matter. More scientifically, it should pierce by burning through, but hey, it's chakra produced so that may have something to do with it, whatever.
As for the flare bit, eh, the ninja can probably stand it. It wasn't like Naruto training with the wind element was creating massive huge hurricane force gusts if I remember correctly.

[Randoug]

A rasengan combined with water could create a hus whirlpool that could trap opponents.

[Raizen]

I think we have to remember that Kakashi intention was to train Naruto how to combine an element to Rasengan, he didn't know Naruto was going to have affinity to wind. I think that alone answer the question been ask, yes Rasengan can be combine with any element. Kakashi intention was to help Naruto combine which ever affinity he have with the Rasengan, his affinity could have been any other element beside wind and Kakashi would have still continue the training.
U got it :D
It is just that combining an element to rasengan is so difficult that not many can accomplish.

[Atemu]

I think we have to remember that Kakashi intention was to train Naruto how to combine an element to Rasengan, he didn't know Naruto was going to have affinity to wind. I think that alone answer the question been ask, yes Rasengan can be combine with any element. Kakashi intention was to help Naruto combine which ever affinity he have with the Rasengan, his affinity could have been any other element beside wind and Kakashi would have still continue the training.

I totally agree with you. There is nothing that indicates theoretically that naruto can't combine other elements in to rasengan. Of course we don't know what kind of elements the 4rth had and kakashi didn't know about naruto's element before the training. I said theoretically because combining elements with rasengan was proven to be difficult, but knowing that naruto he may really do it.

[Forever_Melody]

Well theoretically, any element can be combined into Rasengan. As for more than one, well we've yet to actually see any singular jutsu with more than one element so idk about that, but chances are Naruto would need yet another KB for that >.>

[wildG]

rasengan + crystals? how would it look like ^^

[kkck]

wonder what a mokuton or ice rasengan would look like lol.

[Raizen]

wonder what a mokuton or ice rasengan would look like lol.
1- Control roots and vines and attack with a crippling effect
2- Blizzard in the hand. Instant freeze, inside and out

[kkck]

1- Control roots and vines and attack with a crippling effect
2- Blizzard in the hand. Instant freeze, inside and out

1.- Thats too wierd lol. Maybe something like growing wines and roots out of your inner organs would be more appropiate. Or maybe even having plants taking every nutrient in your body and have you dried out lol.
2.- SWEET!

[enraI]

what would be great naruto can have two elements in his rasengan etc water/wind..That if kishimoto gives him another element...
but naruto is too stupid to do that :D

[Eddy01741]

Naruto is too stupid to do it? He's the first one to successfully combine even one element with the rasengan, if anybody could combine two, it would be him, likely just another shadow clone to add in the other element.

[enraI]

Naruto is too stupid to do it? He's the first one to successfully combine even one element with the rasengan, if anybody could combine two, it would be him, likely just another shadow clone to add in the other element.

well he' just wouldn't think of combining another element to his jutsu:eyeroll

[Forever_Melody]

Well even as far as the manga goes, we've never seen a single jutsu with more than one element combined into it. We've seen combinations of different jutsus of different elements though, but never a single one with more than one element.

Actually, how would it even work? Would Naruto decide to turn half the chakra he puts into Rasengan into Wind and half of it into something else? Doesn't seem to make much sense :s

[Raizen]

Well even as far as the manga goes, we've never seen a single jutsu with more than one element combined into it. We've seen combinations of different jutsus of different elements though, but never a single one with more than one element.

Actually, how would it even work? Would Naruto decide to turn half the chakra he puts into Rasengan into Wind and half of it into something else? Doesn't seem to make much sense :s
He would just use 3 clones instead of 2 :D
1 to spatial compress, one to add wind, one to add the otehr nature LOL

But if anyone can do the impossible, it is naruto. After seeing the latest growth of naruto, I don't know how anyone can underestimate him. The kid is a beast, a genius among the greats and truly deserving of the namikaze and hokage name

[Eddy01741]

A little off topic, but let's see, Naruto set up two kage bunshins to use a giant rasengan each, does this confirm the possibility of a FRS being able to be wielded by a kage bunshin, therefore possibly eliminating the damage done to naruto when attacking?

[Shaunlim]

A little off topic, but let's see, Naruto set up two kage bunshins to use a giant rasengan each, does this confirm the possibility of a FRS being able to be wielded by a kage bunshin, therefore possibly eliminating the damage done to naruto when attacking?

Well, technically, Naruto's KB did use FRS before against Kakazu. Seriously, Kishi is downplaying the power of KBs. I mean, can you imagine 1000 KBs doing Rasengan or something similar and then rain down on the enemy. ?

[Forever_Melody]

He would just use 3 clones instead of 2 :D
1 to spatial compress, one to add wind, one to add the otehr nature LOL

But if anyone can do the impossible, it is naruto. After seeing the latest growth of naruto, I don't know how anyone can underestimate him. The kid is a beast, a genius among the greats and truly deserving of the namikaze and hokage name
Actually, that's not how Rasengan(and Fuuton Rasengan) works. Naruto uses one KB to supply the chakra, one to rotate it(and maintain the rotation) and one to turn the rotating chakra into wind.

He's not "adding wind", he's turning the chakra already present in the Rasengan to wind. Therefore, if he'd want to have 2 elements, he'd need to turn half the chakra in the Rasengan into one element and half into another element, which would prove complicated even for someone like Naruto(I mean, how could he pick which chakra? :s)

[Kyuubinoyoko]

Taking into account sage mode, im sure that even the process of creating frs has been made easier. He will most likely have completely powered it up beyond what it was and have complete control over it. It may not even be used the same way as weve seen his secret jutsu is most likely long ranged.

[Naruto_Namikaze]

after seeing from part 1 Jiraiya to be able to do twin rasengan (during the Rasengan training )and a twin rasengan from Naruto in the Shippuuden movie we finally see Naruto producing Rasengan from both hands in chapter 431 ! What do you guys think about that ?

[kai-uchiha]

pretty cool, but still, he did need shadow clones.
it would have been really awesome had he produced ultimate rasengans in each hand palm without clones.
still room to improve i guess

[bajapanties88]

pretty cool, but still, he did need shadow clones.
it would have been really awesome had he produced ultimate rasengans in each hand palm without clones.
still room to improve i guess


Well, the whole point of the clones was to take care of both summons at the same time while the real Naruto kept running towards the rest of the pains.

[Eddy01741]

Twin rasengan? I don't get what you mean by that? A rasengna in both hands? Or just a rasengan only created with one hand? Or a big rasengan?

Anyways, Naruto created two KBs and he used his two hands to add the spinning/grinding effect to their rasengans while they supplied the chakra. It's like the reverse of what he usually does (having a KB spin his chakra to create a rasengan).

[Black God]

What i saw was naruto create two rasengan and hand both to his clones. I didn't see the clones help him form it in anyway. So if it was proving that he can do it by himself 431 Is enough proff that he can do two with on help from a clone.

[kuroihikari]

Heh, I thought this thread was about the twin Rasengan Naruto did during one of the Naruto movies.

[Eddy01741]

What i saw was naruto create two rasengan and hand both to his clones. I didn't see the clones help him form it in anyway. So if it was proving that he can do it by himself 431 Is enough proff that he can do two with on help from a clone.
That's possible, but it looked more like the clones supplied chakra needed to make rasengan while the real naruto shaped it (into grinding/spinning) to me.

[Naruto_Namikaze]

Heh, I thought this thread was about the twin Rasengan Naruto did during one of the Naruto movies.

well i had in mind the Naruto movies but only the Shippuden one since the Legend of the Gelel movie twin rasengan was pure fanfiction(i mean what is gelel anyway ? :p)
[hr]

Twin rasengan? I don't get what you mean by that? A rasengna in both hands? Or just a rasengan only created with one hand? Or a big rasengan?

Anyways, Naruto created two KBs and he used his two hands to add the spinning/grinding effect to their rasengans while they supplied the chakra. It's like the reverse of what he usually does (having a KB spin his chakra to create a rasengan).

by twin rasengan i mean the ability to produce a rasengan from both hands ...actually in chapter 431 we see two senpou oodama rasengans being created but since the technique is a stronger variation of the rasengan I think its safe to assume that he can do twin rasengan too .

[Eddy01741]

BUt he didn't make two rasengans by himself, he simply molded the chakra with one hand each to the two KBs, not what I would call having dual rasengans.

[Castriota]

i figure he did the rasengan in the clones so like said above, they were for the summons while he could keep rushing forwards toward the peins. and it still seems like he should be able to do it with one hand by himself since he freakin makes two with each of his hands for the clones.

[Hojinmaru]

This example of the rasengan was not Naruto by himself forming two, simply performing the same old trick, only with two clone at the same time while moving. I don't see him ever doing it by himself unless he was forced to only use one hand and no clone. The use of the clone just makes it easier, and it is second nature to him now. Even Konohamaru uses a clone to perform it. Not that that is a strong case. But if using a clone to perform a rasengan takes the jutsu from a A rank jutsu to a D rank jutsu, which would you use. He still has plenty of time to work on a one handed rasengan he's how old again 16-17.

[Forever_Melody]

Well we've seen instances where Naruto uses Rasengan and a clone is not seen. Of course, these instances can be extrapolated to say that there could've been a clone present or nearby mind you.

A good example is the meeting with Tobi. Naruto appears behind Tobi(or a KB of Naruto) and he/it is alone and has a Rasengan in his/its hand. There is no presence of another clone to help perform the Rasengan as far as we know, although knowing that the forest was swarming with KB at the time, one might say that there could have been another clone nearby to help perform the Rasengan.

Also, it might not be a question that Naruto cannot perform a one-handed Rasengan, simply that it is easier and quicker for him to do it with a KB. Remember that to form Rasengan with one hand requires specific concentration and skill, things Naruto might not have time to accomplish in battle.

[Raizen]

Actually, that's not how Rasengan(and Fuuton Rasengan) works. Naruto uses one KB to supply the chakra, one to rotate it(and maintain the rotation) and one to turn the rotating chakra into wind.

He's not "adding wind", he's turning the chakra already present in the Rasengan to wind. Therefore, if he'd want to have 2 elements, he'd need to turn half the chakra in the Rasengan into one element and half into another element, which would prove complicated even for someone like Naruto(I mean, how could he pick which chakra? :s)
Who are we to question or even have doubts in naruto when he has proven himself and surprise us all time to time? that is why if anyone can attain the unattainable, it is naruto

[Hojinmaru]

Taking into account sage mode, im sure that even the process of creating frs has been made easier. He will most likely have completely powered it up beyond what it was and have complete control over it. It may not even be used the same way as weve seen his secret jutsu is most likely long ranged.

While the training to achieve natural chakra certainly should have helped Naruto to improve his chakra control skills, I do not see it effecting his ability to recompose his chakra/natural chakra into wind. That is a whole different skill, one he's just started using. Versus Kakuzu, the F:RS that was used was only said to be at about half power (50% complete). We also saw against the summoner Pein, that he was able to increase the power and size of the Rasengan using senjutsu. IMO the only reason that we did not see a F:RS is that if anything, the initial problem still exists, with more powerful techniques comes even greater risk to the user, and since he has not perfected the jutsu without using senjutsu, adding the additional power and range would only work against him damaging perhaps not just his arm but his entire body as well. I do however have no doubts that given more time and training that he will eventually master the F:RS and will probably go on to create even better jutsu.

[Lelo]

well we've seen him mix it with water when him and Yamato did it and we know u can with wind. U probably can mix it with lighting or fire but it probably wont be as powerful as the others.

[Raizen]

What i saw was naruto create two rasengan and hand both to his clones. I didn't see the clones help him form it in anyway. So if it was proving that he can do it by himself 431 Is enough proff that he can do two with on help from a clone.
That is actually a very interesting idea. I hate how the author makes us question naruto. first he had naruto use rasengan w/o a presence of a clone to smash pein and now clones are introduced. I am in the boat taht says naruto cna do rasengan by himself, so I very much like this idea :p

[Forever_Melody]

Who are we to question or even have doubts in naruto when he has proven himself and surprise us all time to time? that is why if anyone can attain the unattainable, it is naruto

I'm not questioning Naruto, I'm questioning the mechanics. Sure, if anyone can do the impossible, it certainly is Naruto, but the thing mustn't technically be impossible, it must just be so hard that it isn't considered possible.

Like gathering Natural Energy while moving. It's not theoretically impossible, it just is considered impossible because no normal person would be able to stay still and connect with nature while moving.

Why don't I think Naruto can learn Moukuton? It's because that is not only practically impossible, but theoretically as well from what the manga has shown us.

In the same way, I'm wondering at the mechanics of how a second element can be added to Rasengan. An elemental jutsu is the process of turning your chakra into an element. Therefore, if I'd want 2 elements, I'd have to figure w ay to turn half my chakra into one element and half my chakra into another.

And anyways, what benefit would adding in another element do really? It just seems like lots of trouble upgrading a jutsu which is already way too uber >.>

[Forever_Melody]

Naruto has been shown to use Rasengan without the presence of a clone as early as the beginning of part 2. See here (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/258/05/). No sign of a KB shown.

Or how about here (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/380/14/)? Once again, no present sign of KB.

This isn't really the first time Kishi has portrayed Naruto using Rasengan without showing us the clones.

[The_Drunk]

I'm not questioning Naruto, I'm questioning the mechanics. It is possible to add any element into rasengan... Infact I believe that anyone can is capable of creating rasengan. So far we have seen Naruto, Minato, J-man, Konohamoru, and Kakashi... I hope I didn't miss anyone... create rasengan. Rasengan is a ball of chakra... it's something that needs lots of concentration to create and I guess some knowledge of the mechanics to create it.... but Kakashi was the clue to injecting there own element into rasengan. If it wasn't for that... I guess it would have never been confirmed. and yes in theory if you can inject one element into rasengan you could inject another. It doesn't mean that everyone can create it... You need talent, a lot of chakra, an element.. two if your lucky, master kage bushin, and a teacher to show you the way.

[shinsengumi]

I'm wondering at the mechanics of how a second element can be added to Rasengan. An elemental jutsu is the process of turning your chakra into an element. Therefore, if I'd want 2 elements, I'd have to figure w ay to turn half my chakra into one element and half my chakra into another.
it's like looking left and right at the same time isn't it? lol :p

[Forever_Melody]

It is possible to add any element into rasengan... Infact I believe that anyone can is capable of creating rasengan. So far we have seen Naruto, Minato, J-man, Konohamoru, and Kakashi... I hope I didn't miss anyone... create rasengan. Rasengan is a ball of chakra... it's something that needs lots of concentration to create and I guess some knowledge of the mechanics to create it.... but Kakashi was the clue to injecting there own element into rasengan. If it wasn't for that... I guess it would have never been confirmed. and yes in theory if you can inject one element into rasengan you could inject another. It doesn't mean that everyone can create it... You need talent, a lot of chakra, an element.. two if your lucky, master kage bushin, and a teacher to show you the way.

That's the thing people are neglecting. Naruto isn't "injecting" Wind into Rasengan, he's using a KB to turn the chakra already present in Rasengan into Fuuton chakra. Therefore, theoretically, to have more than 1 element, he'd require probably an additional KB and then chose to turn half the chakra into Fuuton and half the chakra into something else.

The question becomes how does Naruto know which chakra is which? It's not hard turning your chakra into one element because you simply turn it all of it into the element, but if you'd want two, you'd have to specifically pick the chakra.

Who's the say that Naruto wouldn't turn some of the already turned Fuuton chakra into the 2nd element or vice versa? The fact that he's separating himself for both tasks even complicated the matter even more because then the KB would need to communicate somehow to say "hey, this part is already turned into Fuuton" or "this part is already the 2nd element". Add that to the fact that the chakra isn't stationary, but rotating makes it even harder to keep track of it.

At the end of the day Naruto might end up with a Fuuton Rasengan if he does it wrong or a 75% Fuuton and 24% something else Rasengan.

[Hojinmaru]

it's like looking left and right at the same time isn't it? lol :p

more like left, right and behind you, since you're now adding an additional element. There is the original Naruto to manifest the chakra in the palm of his hand and control the amount of power; an another clone to spacially recompose it in into the sphere; and the third to elementally recompose the nature of the chakra to wind. A fourth clone would be needed in this method of thinking to also elementally recompose an additional or partial amount of chakra to the new, second element.

[Hojinmaru]

:huh Why is it a bad thing that he uses clones again? Has there ever been an instance where he was unable to use the Rasengan due to no clones?

[SharinganItachi]

:huh Why is it a bad thing that he uses clones again? Has there ever been an instance where he was unable to use the Rasengan due to no clones?

He only did the Rasengan once without any clones if recall during the Naruto Vs. Sasuke battle. correct me if I'm wrong

[Forever_Melody]

:huh Why is it a bad thing that he uses clones again? Has there ever been an instance where he was unable to use the Rasengan due to no clones?
It isn't "bad" in any way from my point of view. It's just Naruto's own personal way of doing Rasengan. Perhaps people dislike it because it shows a "lesser" mastery of Rasengan due to the fact that he needs the extra help from the KB instead of doing everything "himself"(for lack of a better word lol :p)

The actual use of a KB has never hindered Naruto in actually using the Rasengan as we've never seen an opponent take advantage of the small gap of time Naruto needs to create a KB and form Rasengan as opposed to simply creating the Rasengan.



He only did the Rasengan once without any clones if recall during the Naruto Vs. Sasuke battle. correct me if I'm wrong
That one handed Rasengan was due to the Kyuubi's cloak holding & molding the chakra mind you so it wasn't really "Naruto" :s

And see my previous post to see links where Naruto uses Rasengan without a KB shown. Those examples are arguable as to whether or not Naruto actually used a clone to make the Rasengan, but it's clear Kishi did not illustrate the clone in those instances.