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Fayte
April 07, 2009, 11:06 AM
http://x17.xanga.com/a158745b721b9150425001/z69206555.jpg VS http://imgx.gxzone.com/images/7/4/745d2eccd13.jpg


Who would win? This match-up was not played in season 1, which is a shame. My vote goes to Tachibana. I think he could take him. Tachibana is probably the most underrated character, even though he is a freaking beast.

KuwabaraTheMan
April 07, 2009, 11:18 AM
I'm going with Tachibana. He still hasn't ever gone all out (since he was holding back against Chitose).

I really hope we get a chance to see Tachibana go all out and not have to hold back, because he's got an insane amount of potential. I think a match between the two of them would probably be incredibly close, but I give Tachibana the slight edge.

Sai_the_Shaman
April 07, 2009, 06:33 PM
I'd have to go with Tezuka with the current known abilities and power levels.

Tezuka simply has more abilities and is overall known to be one of the strongest players thus far. We've really only seen Tachibana in a single match and he didn't do very much in it. I think with some development Tachibana has a good chance at reaching Tezuka's levels, but with what we currently know my vote has to go to Tezuka

jdw
April 07, 2009, 07:39 PM
I'm going with Tachibana. He still hasn't ever gone all out (since he was holding back against Chitose).

I really hope we get a chance to see Tachibana go all out and not have to hold back, because he's got an insane amount of potential. I think a match between the two of them would probably be incredibly close, but I give Tachibana the slight edge.

Life is hard sometimes. Holding back is his own fault, not giving people a chance to accurately judge his abilities. As Tachibana looks now, Tezuka pulls out a nice sized win. No blowout, but convincing.

KuwabaraTheMan
April 07, 2009, 09:14 PM
Life is hard sometimes. Holding back is his own fault, not giving people a chance to accurately judge his abilities. As Tachibana looks now, Tezuka pulls out a nice sized win. No blowout, but convincing.

Of course it's his own 'fault' that he held back, I'm just pointing out that he's pretty damn good. He and Tezuka are both above Chitose's level, the question is just by how much.

Fayte
April 07, 2009, 09:32 PM
You guys watch Tachibana make Tezuka look silly in PoT2.

Sequel = All minor characters which have a large fanbase, get a superboost in ability.

Translation? Tachibana WILL be on Tezuka's level.

Neru
April 12, 2009, 07:02 AM
Tachibana < Chitose < Tezuka.

This logic works by PoT standards.

KuwabaraTheMan
April 12, 2009, 10:48 AM
Tachibana < Chitose < Tezuka.

This logic works by PoT standards.

Except Tachibana>Chitose. Remember, Tachibana was intentionally holding back in his match against Chitose.

Fayte
April 12, 2009, 01:13 PM
Tachibana < Chitose < Tezuka.

This logic works by PoT standards.

That is wrong, and will NEVER work for PoT standards.

That is like saying Tachibana < Kirihara < Fuji

Which is also wrong, because Tachibana destroyed Fuji before the nationals.

Tachibana > Chitose
Tezuka > Chitose

Just because someone wins against someone, doesn't make them better. Echizen was certainly not better than Sanada in the Kantou finals lol

Neru
April 12, 2009, 05:25 PM
It works as long as the player doesn't improve. At that certain point, even Fuji would have destroyed Tachibana.

Btw, a players talent isn't what determines who is the better player. Just look at reality. There's no doubt that Federer is more talanted than Nadal overall. However, Nadal is much more consistent, has much more willpower and always plays his best. And thats makes him the better player, with the outcome as proof.

If players like Tachibana and Sanda loses becauses they refuses to play with the best of their ability, then they lost to a better player still. Because on the court all that matters in the end is who won and who lost.

Fayte
April 12, 2009, 08:19 PM
Btw, a players talent isn't what determines who is the better player. Just look at reality. There's no doubt that Federer is more talanted than Nadal overall. However, Nadal is much more consistent, has much more willpower and always plays his best. And thats makes him the better player, with the outcome as proof.

If players like Tachibana and Sanda loses becauses they refuses to play with the best of their ability, then they lost to a better player still. Because on the court all that matters in the end is who won and who lost.

No, it is not a matter of who wins and who loses. Potential is what matters.

Renji lost to Inui. Renji had a very high potential, and look what happened in the Nationals.

Sanada lost to Echizen. Sanada had a very high potential, and look what happened to Tezuka.

Tachibana lost to Kirihara. Tachibana had very high potential, and look what happened to Fuji.

In an anime like this, the character with the most potential, will be the better player. Potential is not how many matches you win, but how skilled the player really can be, if played to the maximum ability level.

For example:
Sanada's Potential.

If Sanada didn't keep using Lightning against Tezuka when it kept going out, and used Forest sooner, he would have 6-0'd Tezuka. The only reason he didn't, was because he was stubborn, and kept trying to win using his own way, instead of the best and most effective way to win. That is potential.

DavenSodan
April 13, 2009, 03:53 PM
Well, as an tennis player myself for more than 15 years I have to say that I agree with Neru. In reality nobody in a team competition cares if the player from the other club held back or just played bad. It simply doesnt matter. Because on the court everything matters what happens right there: your mood that day, the food you have eaten on breakfast, how much water you have consumed and will before and during the match, the surface, the weather, a little bit of luck; the list is almost endless. But one of the things that doesnt matter is the past or what might happen next day. Of course your potential matters, but if you cannot use it at its fullest and your opponent can and thus wins, he was the better player THAT day! Do you think the other team cares if I say "hey, I maybe lost today 2-6 1-6, but I could have beaten him 6-0 6-0 if I wanted" ? They wouldnt even laugh.

I too think Federer has more talent, but Nadal wins and thats why he is the better player. If you chose to bet your money on an outcome you may go by potentail.

And if Sanada would have lost because of his stubborness, Tezkua would have been the better player. And "better" just means anything, even attitude and how much you care for your teams sake. If he chose the wrong attitude because he must by all means crush Tezuka and loses because of this its his own fault and hes the worse player.

Of course thats only goes by reality... if you now say "hey, its a manga and thats why [....]" you could actually be right :D. ;)

KuwabaraTheMan
April 13, 2009, 04:19 PM
I don't dispute that it 'doesn't matter' that Tachibana was holding back, in terms of his match of Chitose.

What I'm arguing is that he's a better player overall, so I think he would probably win against Tezuka if he was going all out.

Fayte
April 13, 2009, 07:06 PM
Well, as an tennis player myself for more than 15 years I have to say that I agree with Neru. In reality nobody in a team competition cares if the player from the other club held back or just played bad. It simply doesnt matter. Because on the court everything matters what happens right there: your mood that day, the food you have eaten on breakfast, how much water you have consumed and will before and during the match, the surface, the weather, a little bit of luck; the list is almost endless. But one of the things that doesnt matter is the past or what might happen next day. Of course your potential matters, but if you cannot use it at its fullest and your opponent can and thus wins, he was the better player THAT day! Do you think the other team cares if I say "hey, I maybe lost today 2-6 1-6, but I could have beaten him 6-0 6-0 if I wanted" ? They wouldnt even laugh.

I too think Federer has more talent, but Nadal wins and thats why he is the better player. If you chose to bet your money on an outcome you may go by potentail.

And if Sanada would have lost because of his stubborness, Tezkua would have been the better player. And "better" just means anything, even attitude and how much you care for your teams sake. If he chose the wrong attitude because he must by all means crush Tezuka and loses because of this its his own fault and hes the worse player.

Of course thats only goes by reality... if you now say "hey, its a manga and thats why [....]" you could actually be right :D. ;)

This isn't real tennis. It is a manga. Nobody cares about who won in the manga. It is all a matter of HOW they won.

DavenSodan
April 14, 2009, 06:11 AM
As long as you base ur opinion on the manga its fine with me. I just thought I clear out any misunderstandings ;) because Neru gave the Nadal Federer example and I wasnt entierly sure if your no was going in this direction or not.

On topic: I would go with Tezuka winning the first set by using Phantom and his special serve, but overall Tachibanas Power will prevail in the following sets (if they are playing a regular match and not this best-of-one set garbage) because Tezukas arm will hurt from putting too much spin on the ball. Also Tezuka is more the calm type of player and I dont think that he would go as far as against Sanada if he doesnt compete for his team/the promise he made with Oishi etc. So if he plays for just himself he might not even use Phantom. As for Tachibana I guess that he absolutly wants to have a match with Tezuka and thus would definatly go all out.

Neru
April 15, 2009, 03:19 PM
Sanada's Potential.

If Sanada didn't keep using Lightning against Tezuka when it kept going out, and used Forest sooner, he would have 6-0'd Tezuka. The only reason he didn't, was because he was stubborn, and kept trying to win using his own way, instead of the best and most effective way to win. That is potential.

Potential, is it? Sanada's potential was held back by his pride. And Tezuka's potential ( which is way beyond Sanada's if you ask me ) was held back by his injury. Was that what you meant with potential?

Atobe the king
April 15, 2009, 07:39 PM
Potential, is it? Sanada's potential was held back by his pride. And Tezuka's potential ( which is way beyond Sanada's if you ask me ) was held back by his injury. Was that what you meant with potential?

I agree with, all characters have great potential but something fundamental holds them back, Sanada's is pride, Tezuka's is injury, Fuji's is lack of motivation etc etc

Also Fayt i don't think Sanada could bageled Tezuka with lightning....i think his legs would have gave in before that

As for who wins?

Lets see...Tachibana holds back and he and Chitose still have close match 7-5

Tezuka on the other hand practically bagels Chitose after he stops screwing around...

I'm going to use real tennis logic...Tezuka being a counterpunching all courter would love an opponent like Tachibana aggressive he would likely get him to draw the error or punish him with Hyakuren i doubled Abari dama would be deadly

Don't see Tachibana returning the Zero shiki serve....he doesn't have Sanada's firepower don't picture him forcefully breaking the Tezuka zone only Emperor Genichiro has managed that feat


I'd say....a 7-6 or 7-5 in Tezukas favor

Irrelevant but whenever i play PoT Smash hit as Tezuka against Tachibana i usually barely win 6-4 (basically breaking him once)

Fayte
April 16, 2009, 11:47 AM
I agree with, all characters have great potential but something fundamental holds them back, Sanada's is pride, Tezuka's is injury, Fuji's is lack of motivation etc etc

Also Fayt i don't think Sanada could bageled Tezuka with lightning....i think his legs would have gave in before that

As for who wins?

Lets see...Tachibana holds back and he and Chitose still have close match 7-5

Tezuka on the other hand practically bagels Chitose after he stops screwing around...

I'm going to use real tennis logic...Tezuka being a counterpunching all courter would love an opponent like Tachibana aggressive he would likely get him to draw the error or punish him with Hyakuren i doubled Abari dama would be deadly

Don't see Tachibana returning the Zero shiki serve....he doesn't have Sanada's firepower don't picture him forcefully breaking the Tezuka zone only Emperor Genichiro has managed that feat


I'd say....a 7-6 or 7-5 in Tezukas favor

Irrelevant but whenever i play PoT Smash hit as Tezuka against Tachibana i usually barely win 6-4 (basically breaking him once)

Sanada wouldn't need to spam Rai. If he simply did it for the first 4 games until Tezuka made up his Phantom, then switched to Rin, like he did after spamming it 50 more times, he would have won easily. What is Tezuka going to do? Tezuka zone was already defeated by Sanada's "Ka," and Phantom was defeated by Sanada's "Rin." Tezuka's zero-shiki serve was defeated by Sanada's "KaRinRai" so what is Tezuka going to do? If he wanted to, Sanada could beat him 6-0, easily.

As for Tachibana, remember what he did against Fuji? He returned all of his counters, just like Shiraishi. Not only did he return Tsubame Gaeshi, he returned it FROM THE GROUND. Shiraishi returned it in the air, before it hit the ground. Tachibana is a perfect all rounder, just like Shiraishi.

http://image.onemanga.com/002/mangas/00000009/00000243/10.jpg
lol@higuma otoshi
http://image.onemanga.com/002/mangas/00000009/00000244/10-11.jpg

Atobe the king
April 16, 2009, 12:51 PM
PoT is sort of like real Tennis A beats B Beats C but C can Beat A

You can't use that kind hypothetical with a manga for an event that already happened

Using logic you can say Sanada could have 6-0 Tezuka...but he didn't because thats not what Konomi wanted it's not like a real match where this type of logic is possible, since it's a manga the match's course went the way Konomi wanted it to. He could have easily just gave Tezuka a broken move too to make the match even, if anything it should have been an exchange of service games with a breaker in the end but it's not up to me it's up to Konomi. If he wanted Sanada to bagel him he would have done so.

Tezuka screws around in his matches too much saving trump cards till the end rather than the beginning, Sanada came out with Rai within his opening service game, Tezuka has a counter for Rai and instead drops four straight games before using his own trump card.

KaRinRai was a secret trump card i don't picture him being able to spam that

It was a close match that could have gone either, had the net cord ball landed in Sanada's court he'd have been screwed it would have have either been a withdraw or a no game

As for Fuji...that was pre-nationals Fuji in a scrimage not a real match we've seen anime and manga versions of how Tezuka would handle Fuji's counters

And according to Fuji himself Tezuka (had it been the real thing) would have won with four aces in a row from his Zero Shiki serve

Fayte
April 16, 2009, 02:27 PM
Tezuka screws around in his matches too much saving trump cards till the end rather than the beginning

The Tezuka Phantom was not a trump card. He made it up on the spot, because he was sucking up the court. It's not like he was planning on doing it. He himself said it was impossible, when Echizen asked him about it, months before. He had nothing else to throw at Sanada, but the very thing he never tried. Rai was Sanada's trump card, because he had it since the Nationals started.

As for Shadow, Personally, I believe Sanada created this technique to counter Chitose's play style. Sanada knew Chitose had PGW up his sleeve, and it could have been trouble. It was in Sanada's favor when Tezuka took the very move from Chitose, that Sanada was prepared for.

Atobe the king
April 16, 2009, 02:34 PM
The Tezuka Phantom was not a trump card. He made it up on the spot, because he was sucking up the court. It's not like he was planning on doing it. He himself said it was impossible, when Echizen asked him about it, months before. He had nothing else to throw at Sanada, but the very thing he never tried. Rai was Sanada's trump card, because he had it since the Nationals started.

As for Shadow, Personally, I believe Sanada created this technique to counter Chitose's play style. Sanada knew Chitose had PGW up his sleeve, and it could have been trouble. It was in Sanada's favor when Tezuka took the very move from Chitose, that Sanada was prepared for.

Agreed on the Chitose part because they did play Shitenhouji last year, an rematch wouldn't have been out of the question, but Yuki said Sanada held these attacks at bay for a possible rematch with Tezuka

Also I don't think he invented phantom on the spot, saying something like "If it's unreturnable then i shouldn't have to" leads me to believe he had phantom for a while but it was something he never hoped to use sort of like a last resort like KaRinRai

Sherlock Holmes
April 16, 2009, 04:10 PM
I was going to say Tezuka, but then...

You guys watch Tachibana make Tezuka look silly in PoT2.

Sequel = All minor characters which have a large fanbase, get a superboost in ability.

Translation? Tachibana WILL be on Tezuka's level.

You, sir, are right.
PopularityPower will make Tachibana stronger.

But we must also consider the RuleOfDrama. Depending on how dramatic the match is for Tezuka, Tezuka can win.

Fayte
April 16, 2009, 08:33 PM
I was going to say Tezuka, but then...


You, sir, are right.
PopularityPower will make Tachibana stronger.

But we must also consider the RuleOfDrama. Depending on how dramatic the match is for Tezuka, Tezuka can win.

RuleOfWins >= RuleOfDrama

Tachibana
National matches: 1
-Lost against Chitose.

Tezuka
National Matches: 3
-won against Kite
-won against Chitose
-lost against Sanada

In the "RuleOfWins," Tachibana has much more to show us than Tezuka does, giving him the edge for improvement.

DavenSodan
April 17, 2009, 09:38 AM
As for Tachibana, remember what he did against Fuji? He returned all of his counters, just like Shiraishi. Not only did he return Tsubame Gaeshi, he returned it FROM THE GROUND. Shiraishi returned it in the air, before it hit the ground. Tachibana is a perfect all rounder, just like Shiraishi.

http://image.onemanga.com/002/mangas/00000009/00000243/10.jpg
lol@higuma otoshi
http://image.onemanga.com/002/mangas/00000009/00000244/10-11.jpg

Err, if you watch the chapter again you will notice that Tachibanas ball hit the net and didnt go over when he tried to return the 1st Counter. Even though, Fuji said after the match was stoped that all his counters were broken now.

On a personal note, I like Shiraishis style more, because he actually thinks about how to return a special shot. Tachibana just uses brutal strength which is cool but seen too much.

Atobe the king
April 17, 2009, 10:13 AM
On a personal note, I like Shiraishis style more, because he actually thinks about how to return a special shot. Tachibana just uses brutal strength which is cool but seen too much.

Its because he wastes no movements and uses common sense...the counters have been beaten before, i believe Kirihara broke Tsubame Gaeshi with the same mentality.

anyway yea he returned it with common sense...ironically Shiraishi's method of returning the counters is the same way you return fuji's counters in PoT video games, Hit Tsubame Gaeshi before it lands, smash hakuge while it's flying up, shiraishi destroyed higuma otoshi though because his smash was too powerful

Fayte
April 17, 2009, 10:20 AM
shiraishi destroyed higuma otoshi though because his smash was too powerful

Tachibana already did it, so it shouldn't be a shock. Not only did he do it, he put a hole in Fuji's racquet, by a simple smash.

Atobe the king
April 17, 2009, 11:25 AM
Tachibana already did it, so it shouldn't be a shock. Not only did he do it, he put a hole in Fuji's racquet, by a simple smash.

Fuji still managed to get the ball over, Shiraishi's smash blew the racket away and the won the point

Fayte
April 17, 2009, 11:39 AM
Fuji still managed to get the ball over, Shiraishi's smash blew the racket away and the won the point

He won the point because Tachibana didn't care to return it and get the point for himself. Fuji didn't have another racquet, so the game ended.

Atobe the king
April 17, 2009, 11:41 AM
He won the point because Tachibana didn't care to return it and get the point for himself. Fuji didn't have another racquet, so the game ended.

I didn't mean Fuji won the point against Tachibana i meant Shiraishi Blew the racket away and won the point in one motion, Despite tachibana's power Fuji still managed to get the Ball over the net

Fayte
April 17, 2009, 11:51 AM
I didn't mean Fuji won the point against Tachibana i meant Shiraishi Blew the racket away and won the point in one motion, Despite tachibana's power Fuji still managed to get the Ball over the net

It was a fluke lol. Same thing with Tezuka returning Sanada's KaRinRai. Nothing but a lotto shot. Will never happen again.

Atobe the king
April 17, 2009, 12:02 PM
It was a fluke lol. Same thing with Tezuka returning Sanada's KaRinRai. Nothing but a lotto shot. Will never happen again.

Lol there are no flukes in this series:amuse i remember Sanada saying The COOL drive was a fluke...

After Fuji hit cordballs at will BLIND during has match with Nio i stopped believing in Flukes in this series

But anyway this is supposed to be Tezuka VS Tachibana so i guess we shouldn't discuss Fji/Shiraishi anymore

Fayte
April 17, 2009, 12:08 PM
Lol there are no flukes in this series


Okay so Tachibana keeps owning Fuji's racquets, and then Fuji runs out of them, so he needs to be disqualified. Tachibana wins regardless, so it is meaningless to say anything more than what the reality is.

Atobe the king
April 17, 2009, 12:26 PM
Okay so Tachibana keeps owning Fuji's racquets, and then Fuji runs out of them, so he needs to be disqualified. Tachibana wins regardless, so it is meaningless to say anything more than what the reality is.

How is this reality? your being hypothetically biased...Fuji was just testing his mettle he isn't so much of an idiot to keep trying a Higuma Otoshi

Fayte
April 17, 2009, 12:37 PM
How is this reality? your being hypothetically biased...Fuji was just testing his mettle he isn't so much of an idiot to keep trying a Higuma Otoshi

I am never biased in my predictions.

Dansan1
April 22, 2009, 12:05 AM
Um...you are ALWAYS biased in your predictions. The mere act of prediction outside of including prophecy in the definition always includes bias.

On a side note I want to correct a fact that I've seen posted a few times.

Tachibana did not break all of Fuji's counters(I believe he could break all of the those three, it just didn't happen). He broke Higuma Otoshi. He failed to return Tsubame Gaeshi over the net and Fuji didn't hit Hakugei. I think this mis-quote comes from chapter 244 page 17 when Fuji says that all three counters have been broken. Fuji was saying that all have been broken in general and that they wouldn't be enough for the nationals.


Also it's impossible to say how current Fuji vs. current Tachibana or current anybody vs current anybody would do with 100% certainty as this is a manga. So saying this situation that did not or has not happened is reality is really silly. What happened happened and we don't know what hasn't happened yet.

Our mangaka could develop any player to be better than another merely by choice. He does not have to consult with the characters first. He invented them.

By the way I'd vote Tezuka. 6-4 or 7-5

Fayte
April 22, 2009, 09:30 AM
Um...you are ALWAYS biased in your predictions. The mere act of prediction outside of including prophecy in the definition always includes bias.


Tachibana did not break all of Fuji's counters(I believe he could break all of the those three, it just didn't happen). He broke Higuma Otoshi. He failed to return Tsubame Gaeshi over the net and Fuji didn't hit Hakugei. I think this mis-quote comes from chapter 244 page 17 when Fuji says that all three counters have been broken. Fuji was saying that all have been broken in general and that they wouldn't be enough for the nationals.


Also it's impossible to say how current Fuji vs. current Tachibana or current anybody vs current anybody would do with 100% certainty as this is a manga. So saying this situation that did not or has not happened is reality is really silly. What happened happened and we don't know what hasn't happened yet.



It isn't bias if you simply look at the facts like I do. You obviously misread my posts.

Tachibana DID break all of Fuji's counters. That's why Fuji said it. Why? How? Simple.

"Why didn't Fuji use Tsubame Gaeshi again, if Tachibana didn't hit it over the net?"

Because Fuji knew it would be useless against Tachibana. It wouldn't work twice. Also, If Kirihara returned Hakugei in Kantou, Why the heck would Fuji try it on Tachibana in an unofficial match?

Fuji knew he was defeated, and up until his match with Shiraishi, He was the same Fuji throughout the Nationals, with an added counter. Big deal. His new counter helped him a lot with Shiraishi, that's why he was almost 6-0'd.

As you said, the timeline needs to be taken into account. The current Fuji cannot be compared to the previous Tachibana. It can only be assumed that if one character improves, so will another. That is how the series has been.

Dansan1
April 22, 2009, 10:19 AM
I didn't misread your posts. I am a pretty English savy guy.

You are completely misreading my post.

You obviously do not understand what I meant by 'bias' and 'prediction'. Perhaps you felt my use of the word 'you' was meant specifically at you and were defensive. It was not. You can switch it to the general 'everyone'. So I was saying; everyone is biased in all their predictions to a degree, period. That is the nature of prediction.

EX.

Fuji did not say Tachibana broke his counters, he said only stated that all of them had been broken. It reads that way in English and in Japanese. The only reason to interpret "all my counters have been broken" to "Tachibana broke all my counters" when Tachibana did not is because you think Tachibana could. We don't have any instance of Tachibana doing so, so EVERYTHING else is conjecture and hence subjective. Saying Tachibana could break/broke a technique he didn't even see is your opinion, not fact (I am in no way saying he couldn't break, I even agree with you it wouldn't have worked once!), but he did not break it because he did not have the opportunity to. That's not looking at the facts (the fact is Fuji didn't even use Hakugei) that's reading into the facts. The difference is simply looking at the data, and interpreting the data. I'm not saying interpreting the data is a bad thing, it is what we have to do to come to conclusions, but conclusions contain bias because we were the ones interpreting.

Again I don't disagree with your conclusion, I just want us to understand your conclusion is your opinion.

There is also no reason to assume that one character's improvement would proportionally match another(some characters have been given almost no improvements while others have had lots of focus and improvement). As I said whoever the mangaka wants or needs to win to propel his story will win. Regardless of whatever 'facts' we present the mangaka.

DeidaraGrimmjow
April 22, 2009, 02:50 PM
Just discovered this today. Not to be rude but are you guys serious? I can't believe that this is a serious forum. Chitose would beat Tachibana. Tezuka beat Chitose and only lost one game. All the proof you need...

KuwabaraTheMan
April 22, 2009, 04:02 PM
Just discovered this today. Not to be rude but are you guys serious? I can't believe that this is a serious forum. Chitose would beat Tachibana. Tezuka beat Chitose and only lost one game. All the proof you need...

Except Tachibana would beat Chitose. If they played seriously, we know that Tachibana would win.

Chitose barely managed a victory when he was going all out and Tachibana wasn't trying.

Atobe the king
April 22, 2009, 04:07 PM
Except Tachibana would beat Chitose. If they played seriously, we know that Tachibana would win.

Chitose barely managed a victory when he was going all out and Tachibana wasn't trying.

Wasn't trying is an exaggeration, but he was definitely holding back

When Chitose says he's having Nostalgia it's because he's remember his scrimages with Kippei and how agressive he was.

KuwabaraTheMan
April 22, 2009, 04:49 PM
True, it's not that he wasn't trying at all.

But the manga clearly showed that Tachibana was the stronger of the two.

Atobe the king
April 22, 2009, 05:32 PM
True, it's not that he wasn't trying at all.

But the manga clearly showed that Tachibana was the stronger of the two.

Yea...but i realized....he held back because Chitose still can't see perfectly on one side didn't he? does that mean neither were at their best?

Still 7-5 is pretty close..then again these characters break serve like nothing

DeidaraGrimmjow
April 22, 2009, 06:53 PM
Even if Tachibana could beat Chitose (which I still doubt cause' I bias), that's still a LONG way from Tezuka...

KuwabaraTheMan
April 22, 2009, 07:44 PM
I think Tachibana would give Tezuka a lot more difficulty, though.

His wild and strong shots would put a lot more pressure on Hyakuren than Chitose, who was more of a technical specialist. The biggest issue he would face against Tezuka would be the Phantom.

Atobe the king
April 22, 2009, 08:58 PM
I think Tachibana would give Tezuka a lot more difficulty, though.

His wild and strong shots would put a lot more pressure on Hyakuren than Chitose, who was more of a technical specialist. The biggest issue he would face against Tezuka would be the Phantom.

I disagree, Tezuka ate Kabajis shots and Eishiro's big bangs...leads me to believe he could handle Tachibanas aggression

He's a perfect match up for Tezuka, Aggressive Baseliner VS Counterpuncher

I don't think he has the Sanada fire power it would take to break tezuka zone so far no one has beaten that thing but Sanada



Tachibana DID break all of Fuji's counters. That's why Fuji said it. Why? How? Simple.

But he didn't...he broke one



Because Fuji knew it would be useless against Tachibana. It wouldn't work twice. Also, If Kirihara returned Hakugei in Kantou, Why the heck would Fuji try it on Tachibana in an unofficial match?

Or maybe there was no wind...(seriously)


Fuji knew he was defeated, and up until his match with Shiraishi, He was the same Fuji throughout the Nationals, with an added counter. Big deal. His new counter helped him a lot with Shiraishi, that's why he was almost 6-0'd.

Throughout? he played one match prior and it was a doubles match..you can't use doubles matches to gauge a singles player

It's obvious Fuji wasn't going all out..he lacked motivation and Shiriashi wasn't an opponent that he good just breeze by with a smile like Mizuki, and Jirou. He was down triple match point and took 6 straight games in a row afterwords

KuwabaraTheMan
April 22, 2009, 10:12 PM
I disagree, Tezuka ate Kabajis shots and Eishiro's big bangs...leads me to believe he could handle Tachibanas aggression

He's a perfect match up for Tezuka, Aggressive Baseliner VS Counterpuncher

I don't think he has the Sanada fire power it would take to break tezuka zone so far no one has beaten that thing but Sanada

You bring up the Kabaji match. Remember, Tezuka was in danger of losing that match because he couldn't handle Kabaji's superior power once he copied Hyakuren. Yeah, he won, but I think Tachibana should be able to over power Hyakuren.

Atobe the king
April 22, 2009, 11:16 PM
You bring up the Kabaji match. Remember, Tezuka was in danger of losing that match because he couldn't handle Kabaji's superior power once he copied Hyakuren. Yeah, he won, but I think Tachibana should be able to over power Hyakuren.

I meant before Kabaji copied Hyakuren of course he was going to have problems

Okay...Kabaji is huge he's obviously a power player so if Tezuka could handle that raw power i think he can handle tachibana

that said for Kabaji

his raw power X 2 (from Tezuka) X2 from Kabaji's own Hyakuren

Meaning he was dealing with 4 times the spin and power of the original shot O_O

He may be able to overpower Hyakuren but only Sanada and Yukimura seem to have the tools to compete with the doors of Muga

KuwabaraTheMan
April 23, 2009, 12:05 AM
Yeah, Kabaji with Hyakuren was amplified to a crazy degree.

But Tachibana has skill in addition to that power. He could probably specifically target overwhelming Tezuka's Hyakuren, unlike Kabaji, who was just using raw power.

Personally, I think Tachibana is on the same level as those other guys. There's a reason he was feared as one of the strongest players in Japan.

Atobe the king
April 23, 2009, 07:57 AM
Yeah, Kabaji with Hyakuren was amplified to a crazy degree.

But Tachibana has skill in addition to that power. He could probably specifically target overwhelming Tezuka's Hyakuren, unlike Kabaji, who was just using raw power.

Personally, I think Tachibana is on the same level as those other guys. There's a reason he was feared as one of the strongest players in Japan.

It's true...when they mention the national level players, the list was Atobe, Tezuka, Sengoku and all of Rikkai

I see what you mean...but judging from what we've seen Tezuka would win the match, not a bagel or breadstick but he would edge out the victory

From what i've noticed there are two tachibanas...the conservative one..who lost to Kirihara and te Agressive one, who scrimmaged with Fuji and played Chitose

The agressive one has no patience, he screwed up with Tsubamae Gaeshi which Kirihara had managed to returned, and he got impatient at KamiKakushi and dumped it into the net

All of Tezukas opponents in the Nationals sans Chitose had dangerous fire power and he handled most of them thoroughly

Fayte
April 23, 2009, 09:46 AM
From what i've noticed there are two tachibanas...the conservative one..who lost to Kirihara and te Agressive one, who scrimmaged with Fuji and played Chitose

The agressive one has no patience, he screwed up with Tsubamae Gaeshi which Kirihara had managed to returned, and he got impatient at KamiKakushi and dumped it into the net



The agressive Tachibana who played Fuji is not the agressive Tachibana who owned Chitose's eyeball. Tachibana was worse than Kirihara back then, which is why everyone was afraid of him. Ever since then, he has never aimed a ball at the body, even in his agressive "Wild Lion" state.

Also, "Phantom" would not work on Tachibana, or any other player in my opinion. You see, without a shot as strong as Rai, Tezuka has to use about triple the force to bring the shot to go out. Which is impossible. Tezuka wouldn't be able to do that. Which is why I believe Phantom is only used against shots that are so powerful, you cannot return.

IE: Sanada's Rai, Gin's Hadoukyuus

I think Tachibana should have PHW. That would be crazy with his wild lion.

Atobe the king
April 23, 2009, 09:48 AM
Tachibana has his own Aura, and why did Nio get to use Phantom on Fuji then? who's anything but a power player

Fayte
April 23, 2009, 04:09 PM
Tachibana has his own Aura, and why did Nio get to use Phantom on Fuji then? who's anything but a ower player

That match was so stupid I completely forgot Niou did that.

DavenSodan
April 26, 2009, 02:49 PM
Somehow I believe that everything we saw at the NiouFuji match was from Fujis pov. Didnt re-read the chapters though. Niou was, for me, just a great actor who could, like really good hollywood actors, mimic every other person he wants to. Not just expression or playstyle but voice wise too. So the one and only time we wittnessed Niou using Phantom I believe that Fuji just thought that Niou could really pull it off and hit the ball out. Same with the Tezuka zone maybe. Fuji gets so irritated that he hits every ball to Niou becuase he moves the same way Tezuka does when using his Zone.

Uh, somehow, no matter how I want to understand it, it would be still a shitty match :amuse .

on topic: where has it been stated that Phantom is just good against unreturnable shots?

Atobe the king
April 26, 2009, 03:35 PM
No it wasn't that...multiple people saw the illusion, Yukimura,Sanada and Atobe come to mind
http://www.onemanga.com/Prince_of_Tennis/361/02/

Also i believe Inui commented on the phantom
http://www.onemanga.com/Prince_of_Tennis/361/03/

Fayte
April 27, 2009, 11:28 AM
Niou doesn't really copy the techniques, it is just an illusion. Niou makes Fuji think he is playing against Tezuka.

"You couldn't even hold a candle to the real Tezuka" - Fuji

Remember, Niou couldn't hit a zero-shiki serve.


where has it been stated that Phantom is just good against unreturnable shots?

It is my theory. Not "unreturnable" shots, just powerful shots with a lot of spin. Using the logic of the PoT world, Tezuka shouldn't be able to use Phantom against a flat shot with hardly any power.

KuwabaraTheMan
April 27, 2009, 12:57 PM
Niou clearly does copy techniques, he just isn't quite as good as the original. Remember when the real Yagyuu hit his Laser Beam and it was 3x faster than Niou's?

Niou can't copy someone perfectly, but he can copy their skills to an extent. He couldn't copy the Zero-Shiki serve, but he could copy Tezuka's other skills. Probably not quite on the same level as Tezuka, but that doesn't make it an illusion.

Fayte
April 27, 2009, 01:12 PM
Niou clearly does copy techniques, he just isn't quite as good as the original. Remember when the real Yagyuu hit his Laser Beam and it was 3x faster than Niou's?

Niou can't copy someone perfectly, but he can copy their skills to an extent. He couldn't copy the Zero-Shiki serve, but he could copy Tezuka's other skills. Probably not quite on the same level as Tezuka, but that doesn't make it an illusion.

Even Sanada and Yukimura said they were fooled by his "illusion."

KuwabaraTheMan
April 27, 2009, 01:19 PM
Even Sanada and Yukimura said they were fooled by his "illusion."

That doesn't explain him actually hitting the shots.

What I think they mean by illusion is that he is making it seem like he is on the same level as Tezuka, when he really isn't. That doesn't change the fact that he's copying his techniques. But Niou is no Kabaji. His copies aren't perfect, which was the whole point of that match.

Dansan1
April 27, 2009, 03:07 PM
I think....

The illusion part refers to the fact that Niou through various means; using their techniques, mimicking their smallest mannerisms and speech patterns, he convinces the opponent he actually is someone else or makes them see that person.

Kabaji was still clearly Kabaji, but was using Tezuka's techniques. Niou was using the techniques but going a step further in totally copying everything about him to make it seem that you were playing him.

He does actually use the moves. He is simply inferior to Tezuka, and hence was unable to hit the Zero-Shiki serve, he just didn't have the ability to do that one.

At least that's how I interpret the manga.

KuwabaraTheMan
April 27, 2009, 03:44 PM
I think....

The illusion part refers to the fact that Niou through various means; using their techniques, mimicking their smallest mannerisms and speech patterns, he convinces the opponent he actually is someone else or makes them see that person.

Kabaji was still clearly Kabaji, but was using Tezuka's techniques. Niou was using the techniques but going a step further in totally copying everything about him to make it seem that you were playing him.

He does actually use the moves. He is simply inferior to Tezuka, and hence was unable to hit the Zero-Shiki serve, he just didn't have the ability to do that one.

At least that's how I interpret the manga.

Yeah, I think that's right. Of course, when he was playing with Yagyuu he was actually cosplaying, which helped him a lot.

But I think the whole 'mimicking the mannerisms' deal is what they meant by 'illusion'.

Atobe the king
April 27, 2009, 03:52 PM
His illusion is different from the others...

there are 3 canonical copy cats (im not counting filler like Kevin Smith or Wakato)

Kabaji-Can only Copy who he is playing

Hitouji-(i think thats his name) of Shitenhouji who can copy voices to a T, mimic mannerisms and techniques

Nio-Nio flat out mind rapes you and he can be anyone...now that i think of it maybe his laser is slow because he hits it righthanded as opposed to southpaw...man Nio if fucking awesome, another ambidextrous player, he mimics voice and he chooses specific targets, if Fuji, Seigaku and Atobe and the other weren't invested in Tezuka's greatness the Illusion wouldn't have worked