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Razh
April 12, 2009, 04:55 AM
I noticed it was very popular topic. So why not have a thread for it instead of discussing it in half of already existing ones.

We can theorize about his abilities, compare his strength with other characters, speculate how he would fare in fighting them and so on.
No insulting, no giving silly nicknames to other members.:amuse
If you see it, report it.

I won't go discussing it in the first post already. Let's wait for some response first.

deffkryz
April 12, 2009, 06:07 AM
Okay, then let's get started I guess....

Let's take a look at the facts:


Teach had a bounty of most probably ZERO Beri (due to Senghok's reaction when he heard the name of "Blackbeard/Kurohige" which was absolutely unknown to him.
He killed Thatch - commander of Whitebeard's 4th division - without devil powers and defeated Ace - commander of Whitebeard's 2nd division - partially because of his Yami yami powers which deactivated Ace's intangibility.
Starting from Jaya he wanted to fight pirates with a bounty of 100,000,000 Beri minimum
He thinks, that pirates may -no- should have a dream they should realize.
He now is a Shichibukai - that means the WG & the Marine acknowledge his power and strength.


I'd say Teach is a clever person that doesn't act as bluntly as Luffy does. His only weakness by now seem to be the negative effect of his devil power:


He takes double damage on a hit. Sorry, my one.
He is tangible - though Yami yami no mi is a Logia fruit.


We haven't seen anything about his willpower and if it leads to some haki effect. So... I don't know how strong he really is - since I don't know how he's able to counter other ones' attacks.

BlackHair
April 12, 2009, 07:48 AM
Tbh I don't like him. He used WB for decades just to get the fruit. Imo it may be clever, but somehow sneaky and without pride/honour. Also since the introduction of haki, his ability doesn't seem to be that much of a baddass, as we thought. Apart from that, it's hinted that he is going to be the final villain.


He served WB for decades, which lets conclude that he posses over experience on sea and fighting.
He posses over high physical endurance and power (I believe he is equal with Luffy on that)
It is hinted (I believe) that he is the strongest logia





He takes double damage on a hit.
He takes damages as much as normal would do, or more, but not double. (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/441/11/)

[lucci]
April 12, 2009, 11:18 AM
If Blackbeard has shown all his powers I think luffy could beat him right now... he beat Ace just by punching him and punches don't affect luffy unless they are as strong as Garp's, but I'm not sure wether he has already shown everything

Razh
April 12, 2009, 11:28 AM
@blackhair:I agree with you on that. Other pirates, such as Luffy, Roger, Shanks or Whitebeard were never hiding under someone. They never waited for something to happen.

Blackbeard spent decades in Whitebeard's crew just to find Yami Yami fruit. He was hiding, until he got what he wanted, and then decided to become a captain. Now, instead of going the hard way he again hides under a big name, being a Shichibukai.
The guy plans and waits for opportunities and then acts when it's easier than it would be. He may be dangerous and strong, but that way, he'll never be able to compete with Luffy, at least not in this manga.

Putting him as one of the strongest people now is also a mistake. He just became a captain, and he can still progress. I already said so, and I still think that he missed a couple of big fights while he was in Whitebeard pirates. His bounty of 0 proves it.
@deffkryz: Kuma said to Moria that Blackbeard's bounty is 0.

He has beaten Ace. But it wasn't exactly a walk in a park for him. There are a lot of people who are stronger than Ace.

He scratched Shanks over his eye. That's not really much. It was obviously a superficial scratch, otherwise Shanks would have an eye patch now.
And that was some time between Roger's execution and beginning of One Piece. Shanks already had his flag then.
Since that time, Shanks was going the hard way, probably fought a lot of battles and eventually became one of Yonkou. All that with only one hand. It's obvious how strong he is, from what we saw on Moby Dick. And it looks like he mastered Haki.
I don't think Blackbeard, who hasn't lived his life to the fullest all the time, can fight Shanks or Whitebeard, right now. He knows that. That's why he became a Shichibukai. It's a safe place to be.
He'll probably become stronger with time. People do get stronger in One Piece. Maybe he'll even lose some weight. It doesn't look like movement speed is his mayor strength.:p

Gecko Moria
April 12, 2009, 07:00 PM
Blackbeard's Devil Fruit the Yami Yami No Mi:

The major weakness of this particular fruit, however, is that the darkness the user transforms into swallows up everything, including attacks. So unlike most Logia users, the user of the fruit is still vulnerable to attacks as they cannot turn into darkness in order to dodge them. If they fail to absorb the enemy's attack in time, the user can be hurt like any other normal human being or even more, as stated by Teach.
Is this weaknesses a natural property of the fruit that can not be solved or is it that Blackbeard has not reached the full potential of his fruit yet?

RichardMNixon
April 12, 2009, 10:37 PM
I'm not really sure why his bounty is zero, he's ransacked entire islands. His crew obliterated the government of Drum and he messed up Banero pretty bad too, I'm sure there were some more in between.

His punches could probably hurt Luffy pretty easily because they can deactivate his DF. Also don't underestimate Ace's natural strength, Luffy and van Auger both commented on it. I think BB is at least as physically strong as Lucci and most likely a good bit stronger.

Compared to whatever it is Rayleigh (and maybe Hancock's sisters) can do though, his DF still seems kind of disappointing. It would be better if he had more control over gravity than he's shown so far. He only used the vortex on Ace, but could he use black hole to create a huge gravitational field all around himself, crushing people against the ground?

kkck
April 13, 2009, 12:41 AM
I'm not really sure why his bounty is zero, he's ransacked entire islands. His crew obliterated the government of Drum and he messed up Banero pretty bad too, I'm sure there were some more in between.

His punches could probably hurt Luffy pretty easily because they can deactivate his DF. Also don't underestimate Ace's natural strength, Luffy and van Auger both commented on it. I think BB is at least as physically strong as Lucci and most likely a good bit stronger.

Compared to whatever it is Rayleigh (and maybe Hancock's sisters) can do though, his DF still seems kind of disappointing. It would be better if he had more control over gravity than he's shown so far. He only used the vortex on Ace, but could he use black hole to create a huge gravitational field all around himself, crushing people against the ground?
BB bounty was zero because he didn't do any of those things until very recently. I guess he didn't left enough evidence in drum kingdom for them to actually put a bounty on him. As for the banaro island, that was the very thing which made him a shichibukai, I doubt the WG would give him a bounty just to make him a shichibukai seconds later.
I think we have yet to see what BB is capable of, what we saw was just a sample.
Also, take a look at this:
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/441/05/
BB could have sucked ace there just like he did with the town, he simply chose not to do it in that moment.

RichardMNixon
April 13, 2009, 12:59 AM
Agreed, and like Doflamingo's power this one might have had some discrepancy between anime/manga in terms of speed. Page 4 in particular makes it seem much faster than the anime dragged it out to be.

Isto
April 13, 2009, 05:59 AM
i think it's obivous that blackbeard is strong

and from going of the story it seems like he might be luffys biggest opponent

not sure is he aiming for luffy anymore though because he got ace instead for a chichibukai title (that was the reason for him to target luffy?)

but still there is always a stronger guy

Dice
April 13, 2009, 07:25 AM
Just to bring up the chapter with BB's bounty:
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/474/12/

hisoga
April 13, 2009, 12:07 PM
to me, for somebody that is acknowledge by someone as great as shank, he is a real bad ass... shank even come to see WB to warn him about BB.. luffy had once said that his brother ace was more powerful than him(luffy-and during that time had gain his df power) even before he ate the mera mera no mi.. so as we see, BB>>ace even in hand to hand combat..
the other thing is, in one piece, bounty is not equal to power.. so, not having a bounty doesn't mean weak.
to me, right now he is much2 more powerful than luffy.. not only in term of df ability.. mavbe on par with admiral and yonkou.. not whole yonkou crew but only the captain..mano o mano maybe

and i think he will be one of luffy biggest opponent in order to become the pirate king.

Rotten The Wizard
April 13, 2009, 03:57 PM
Well He hasnt mastered his DF as yet, that will take him a while given its complex nature. He can improve to a level like Crocodile's, it reacts on impact. Then he would really be invincible.

And just imagine if he sucks in someone with "Liberation" o.O' instant ownage.
He's strong but not insanely strong, yet.

Gecko Moria
April 13, 2009, 05:04 PM
Well He hasnt mastered his DF as yet, that will take him a while given its complex nature. He can improve to a level like Crocodile's, it reacts on impact. Then he would really be invincible.

And just imagine if he sucks in someone with "Liberation" o.O' instant ownage.
He's strong but not insanely strong, yet.

His weakness in not being able to let attacks pass through him is not that crippling however because of his incredible strength. However, I think the fact that he has not fully mastered his Devil Fruit makes him more interesting (like Luffy) as we can ook forward to how he will evolve and become stronger.

kkck
April 13, 2009, 05:28 PM
Why are we assuming BB hasn't mastered his DF for all we know he has already had his fruit for quite some time.

Rotten The Wizard
April 13, 2009, 05:40 PM
Why are we assuming BB hasn't mastered his DF for all we know he has already had his fruit for quite some time.

Well shanks Confronted WhiteBeard a lil while after we found out about Ace's search for Teach so it couldnt have been that long.
WB probably sent ace soon after he found out what had happened. Plus its clear that he hasnt mastered it if you pay attention to the fight.

kkck
April 13, 2009, 09:29 PM
Well shanks Confronted WhiteBeard a lil while after we found out about Ace's search for Teach so it couldnt have been that long.
WB probably sent ace soon after he found out what had happened. Plus its clear that he hasnt mastered it if you pay attention to the fight.

Do you have a link for that? I didn't remember that at all.

What part of the fight makes you think he hasn't mastered his fruit? The fight basically involved him showing of his fruit, if anything the fight suggested he already mastered it. What I do think is that the fruit can show a lot more, but that doesn't mean BB hasn't mastered his fruit.

ihateyou1
April 13, 2009, 09:52 PM
well BB is really strong.. he's an opportunistic bastard with an evil laugh.. that's a good sign that he might be the final opponent of luffy... but i don't think he's at the level of yonkou... eneru is much stronger than blackbeard... he's insanely strong!!! i just hope eneru got lost again and landed on the grandline... he's the strongest logia user.. BB against eneru of course BB=roasted barbeque!!!

Gecko Moria
April 14, 2009, 02:51 AM
Why are we assuming BB hasn't mastered his DF for all we know he has already had his fruit for quite some time.

While he's had it for a while, he hasn't had it for as long as the other fruit users e.g. Ace

That is perhaps what makes the man so admirable. That even though he has not had it as long, he was able to defeat a former superior :o

hisoga
April 14, 2009, 04:01 AM
i dont agree with eneru>>BB.. if my memory serve me well, luffy once said that enel is nothing.. there are many stronger guy down there at the blue sea...

BlackHair
April 14, 2009, 06:52 AM
I'm also putting BB over Enel. Enel had home advantage in Sky Pia, like Corco in Alabasta (desert). That would mean he would be less impressive than as he was shown in Sky Pia. His Raigu would also require more time, since the distance to soil.

On BB's fruit, I agree with kkck. There are no hints saying that he hasn't mastered the fruit. About the time, well read EL (Kaku and Kalifa). Also like I mentioned in other BB discussion, he hasn't shown us his full ability's. He didn't go all out on Ace, cause there was no need. Ace wasn't strong enough.


Plus its clear that he hasnt mastered it if you pay attention to the fight. Could u give me a link plz

kkck
April 14, 2009, 06:29 PM
While he's had it for a while, he hasn't had it for as long as the other fruit users e.g. Ace

That is perhaps what makes the man so admirable. That even though he has not had it as long, he was able to defeat a former superior :o

Ace left around 3 years before luffy and I heard he got his power after leaving. Now, you could argue ace hasn't mastered his fruit either but that would be as baseless as the assumption that BB hasn't master it...

Rotten The Wizard
April 14, 2009, 07:00 PM
I'm also putting BB over Enel. Enel had home advantage in Sky Pia, like Corco in Alabasta (desert). That would mean he would be less impressive than as he was shown in Sky Pia. His Raigu would also require more time, since the distance to soil.

On BB's fruit, I agree with kkck. There are no hints saying that he hasn't mastered the fruit. About the time, well read EL (Kaku and Kalifa). Also like I mentioned in other BB discussion, he hasn't shown us his full ability's. He didn't go all out on Ace, cause there was no need. Ace wasn't strong enough.

Could u give me a link plz

http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/441/02/

1. He seems to be very stationary during the fight, which is a very bad thing due to his weakness, he's a sitting duck

2. His vortex is a very very risky trick and wont really work against people his size. It worked well with ace cause ace is alot smaller so he was able to grab ace as if he were a child.

3. When his DF is activated the darkness only runs over his back which is a very bad thing singe he cant phase through attacks and he doesnt move either. He's also a huge target. There are alot of people out there who can move faster than BB can activate his vortex.

He can improve in all those areas. In my eyes BB isnt one of the strongest people in this manga since he has some major weaknesses.

Put him against someone who uses Weapons or Rankyaku and he'd be a dead man. Zoro would split his stomach open.
Notice that Ace landed quite a few attacks on him. Had that been one of zoro's flying slashes or Kaku's Rankyaku he would've been dead.

His power is very great but he's a massive sitting duck and given the fact that he cant cover his entire body with the vortex thats a MAJOR weakness.

Liberation is very cool but it would be alot better if he could utilize Liberation in his palm like Vortex

He has alot of areas to improve on.
People dont get that He'll be the most powerful villain EVENTUALLY, but he's not right now. Like luffy he has yet to master his power. That will happen gradually.

In doing that Oda just proves his genius. A villain who actually has to grow his power over the course of the manga not God-like from the get-go

Phase
April 14, 2009, 07:08 PM
Put him against someone who uses Weapons or Rankyaku and he'd be a dead man. Zoro would split his stomach open.
Notice that Ace landed quite a few attacks on him. Had that been one of zoro's flying slashes or Kaku's Rankyaku he would've been dead.


Since when did Ace's attacks become so weak? If I remember correctly, Ace completely destroyed like 5 huge ships with one punch. Now Zoro's attacks are supposed to be way better than that?

It sounds to me like you just don't like BB's character design. That's the drawback of his fruit, he's SUPPOSED to take all the damage thrown his way. Things like dodging would be in direct conflict with his character design. It's reasonable to assume that he can take more damage than anyone else in the One Piece world. He's like the One Piece version of Rocky.

Gecko Moria
April 14, 2009, 07:13 PM
Ace left around 3 years before luffy and I heard he got his power after leaving. Now, you could argue ace hasn't mastered his fruit either but that would be as baseless as the assumption that BB hasn't master it...

It's also baseless to argue that Ace and Blackbeard have completely mastered their fruit. I assume neither of them have had their fruits for as long as some of the other powerful people in One Piece (Kizaru, Aokiji, Kuma etc.) so it is highly unlikely that they have.

An interesting point about Devil Fruits is that their abilities can nearly always be honed further. Attaining complete mastery over a Devil Fruit means they have reached the epitome of the fruit's powers, which I doubt they have considering, again, the length of time they've had it in comparison to others. Even back in Nanohana, it was shown that Ace had not even achieved the ability to automatically turn into his element yet (unlike someone like Crocodile and Kizaru), causing him (and Smoker) to be sent flying when Luffy used his Gum Gum Rocket.

Rotten The Wizard
April 14, 2009, 07:32 PM
Since when did Ace's attacks become so weak? If I remember correctly, Ace completely destroyed like 5 huge ships with one punch. Now Zoro's attacks are supposed to be way better than that?

It sounds to me like you just don't like BB's character design. That's the drawback of his fruit, he's SUPPOSED to take all the damage thrown his way. Things like dodging would be in direct conflict with his character design. It's reasonable to assume that he can take more damage than anyone else in the One Piece world. He's like the One Piece version of Rocky.
lol
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/159/18-19/
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/441/15/
Don't u see a difference in attack power?

BB sucked in ace's Larger attacks

He has no defense, thats his flaw.
I'm not claiming zoro is stronger than Ace, I'm just saying his fighting style woud've been more effective. And yes I do believe that Zoro's attacks are more damaging than ace's fire lances

RichardMNixon
April 14, 2009, 07:53 PM
lol
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/159/18-19/

http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/440/16/


Don't u see a difference in attack power?
Nope



BB sucked in ace's Larger attacks

He has no defense, thats his flaw.
I'm not claiming zoro is stronger than Ace, I'm just saying his fighting style woud've been more effective. And yes I do believe that Zoro's attacks are more damaging than ace's fire lances

So you're saying Zoro isn't stronger, but that swords can kill people and fire can't? How do you reconcile that? He doesn't need a defense, that's his strength, you just can't kill the bastard. He took hit after hit, smiling about it, and was still standing. http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/441/17/

That said, I don't think he's at Whitebeard's level just yet. http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/523/12/

Phase
April 14, 2009, 07:53 PM
lol
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/159/18-19/
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/441/15/
Don't u see a difference in attack power?


http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/440/16/
You realize that the Hiken was the very first attack that Ace tried right? It wasn't enough so it's reasonable to assume that the next attacks were more powerful. It wouldn't make any sense for Ace to go to weaker attacks if the stronger one didn't work.

He most certainly has defense, but it's completely different from every other logia. Other logia users rely on evasion for defense. BB relies on resilience for defense. He willingly takes the damage and just survives through it. It's unreasonable to think that any strawhat can deal enough damage to kill him when Ace can't even come close.

Gecko Moria
April 14, 2009, 07:54 PM
Question: In regards to Blackbeard's ability to negate the powers of Devil Fruits: Is it automatic or does he have to think about it to happen?

Phase
April 14, 2009, 07:57 PM
Question: In regards to Blackbeard's ability to negate the powers of Devil Fruits: Is it automatic or does he have to think about it to happen?

I think it works the same way as Croc's ability to dry people out, so my guess is that he has to think about it. I don't really have any evidense to support that though.

kkck
April 14, 2009, 10:37 PM
It's also baseless to argue that Ace and Blackbeard have completely mastered their fruit. I assume neither of them have had their fruits for as long as some of the other powerful people in One Piece (Kizaru, Aokiji, Kuma etc.) so it is highly unlikely that they have.

An interesting point about Devil Fruits is that their abilities can nearly always be honed further. Attaining complete mastery over a Devil Fruit means they have reached the epitome of the fruit's powers, which I doubt they have considering, again, the length of time they've had it in comparison to others. Even back in Nanohana, it was shown that Ace had not even achieved the ability to automatically turn into his element yet (unlike someone like Crocodile and Kizaru), causing him (and Smoker) to be sent flying when Luffy used his Gum Gum Rocket.

Yet when ace was shot he instinctively transformed into fire.
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/440/13/
I am willing to bet that the speed of a bullet >>>>>>> speed of luffy being thrown.

Xenos3421
April 14, 2009, 10:48 PM
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/441/02/

1. He seems to be very stationary during the fight, which is a very bad thing due to his weakness, he's a sitting duck

2. His vortex is a very very risky trick and wont really work against people his size. It worked well with ace cause ace is alot smaller so he was able to grab ace as if he were a child.

3. When his DF is activated the darkness only runs over his back which is a very bad thing singe he cant phase through attacks and he doesnt move either. He's also a huge target. There are alot of people out there who can move faster than BB can activate his vortex.

He can improve in all those areas. In my eyes BB isnt one of the strongest people in this manga since he has some major weaknesses.

Put him against someone who uses Weapons or Rankyaku and he'd be a dead man. Zoro would split his stomach open.
Notice that Ace landed quite a few attacks on him. Had that been one of zoro's flying slashes or Kaku's Rankyaku he would've been dead.

His power is very great but he's a massive sitting duck and given the fact that he cant cover his entire body with the vortex thats a MAJOR weakness.

Liberation is very cool but it would be alot better if he could utilize Liberation in his palm like Vortex

He has alot of areas to improve on.
People dont get that He'll be the most powerful villain EVENTUALLY, but he's not right now. Like luffy he has yet to master his power. That will happen gradually.

In doing that Oda just proves his genius. A villain who actually has to grow his power over the course of the manga not God-like from the get-go

Hmmm, this is one of those times i'd have to disagree with ya' man.

Like, all 3 of your points are speculations that that aren't ratified in the manga. You keep mention his "weakness" by being a "sitting duck" or not being able to cover his body with a vortex.

None of those seem like weaknesses in the fight he was in.
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/441/11/

That's just his fruit; he cannot let things pass through him.

(IMHO, letting attacks go through you like regular Logia's just make you weaker cuz you'll forget what getting hit is like.)
Secondly, the whole 2nd point begs me to ask why? Size doesn't always matter, no joke, 'member Oz?
It's possible to be smaller and stronger then your opponent in One piece.
And why would think speed has anything to do with Vortex? I don't see it.

I understand you think he's imperfect so he can gradually get buffer and buffer until he's the most powerful enemy left, but why does he need to do that when before he even had his teaser fight, Shanks reveals that he scared him and that he was a threat.

And then you find out he has the "Anti-DF" Devil fruit.

He doesn't need training, he's certainly a powerful guy! from the start he's been depicted as strong and foreshadowed so long that he just might not be the "final" enemy after all.

Is One Piece really so predictable that a mere 500 chapters deep we think we know who the big bad final boss'l be???

Gecko Moria
April 14, 2009, 11:01 PM
Yet when ace was shot he instinctively transformed into fire.
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/440/13/
I am willing to bet that the speed of a bullet >>>>>>> speed of luffy being thrown.

I said he was not able to transform automatically into fire in Nanohana. He should be able to now and during his fight against Blackbeard, since he would have trained on it as it is quite a life-savingly important ability.

Regardless, the fact that he has only relatively recently been able to achieve this is testament to how he has not completely mastered his fruit's powers. And if he hasn't, then I'm pretty certain that someone who got a fruit him i.e. Blackbeard has not mastered his fruit's power's either.

Lord Rayleigh
April 15, 2009, 04:16 AM
I said he was not able to transform automatically into fire in Nanohana. He should be able to now and during his fight against Blackbeard, since he would have trained on it as it is quite a life-savingly important ability.

We do not know if turning automatically into logia mode has something to do with training.
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/441/10/
When Ace shot BB, he was surprised even if it was a quick attack (if you look on the page, you will see that BB did not have the time to fully understand what happened) that he could be injured and thought he could transform automatically in a logia mode.
We all know BB was not able to because his DF do not allow him to BUT it seems according to Ace's reaction that Logia users can transform automatically and it has nothing to do with training.
Otherwise Ace would not have been so surprised about someone who has just eaten his DF, was not able to do - because of his lack of DF experience and mastering - to turn into it automatically.

Gecko Moria
April 15, 2009, 04:23 AM
We do not know if turning automatically into logia mode has something to do with training.
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/441/10/
When Ace shot BB, he was surprised even if it was a quick attack (if you look on the page, you will see that BB did not have the time to fully understand what happened) that he could be injured and thought he could transform automatically in a logia mode.
We all know BB was not able to because his DF do not allow him to BUT it seems according to Ace's reaction that Logia users can transform automatically and it has nothing to do with training.
Otherwise Ace would not have been so surprised about someone who has just eaten his DF, was not able to do - because of his lack of DF experience and mastering - to turn into it automatically.

What else can it be to do with other than training? We already know it's not an ability that is obtained on the first day of consuming the fruit from the Ace+Smoker+Luffy incident. Ace probably thinks Blackbeard should have been able to automatically turn into his element because that is what most relatively experienced logias are able to do.

DutchPhoenix
April 15, 2009, 04:28 AM
i wonder how blackbeard would do if he gets poisoned by maggalen

Razh
April 15, 2009, 04:36 AM
Yet when ace was shot he instinctively transformed into fire.
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/440/13/
I am willing to bet that the speed of a bullet >>>>>>> speed of luffy being thrown.

It wasn't instinctively. We may not have seen Auge pointing the gun at Ace, but he was looking right at him. He saw Auge pointing the gun at him. And, being faced with a number of dangerous enemies, was probably ready for an attack too.

The assumption that he trained his DF enough for his body to react on his own doesn't have much base. It's only a guess.


i wonder how blackbeard would do if he gets poisoned by maggalen

Why wonder? He would do like anybody else would have.

Lord Rayleigh
April 15, 2009, 04:37 AM
What else can it be to do with other than training? We already know it's not an ability that is obtained on the first day of consuming the fruit from the Ace+Smoker+Luffy incident.
I'm not fully convinced about this example as Smoker was wearing a kairouseki sword on his back.
And do you not think that Ace and Smoker are enough experienced to avoid - as you supposed it to be a failure of the both logias to prevent the damages - a surprise Luffy attack ?
This supposition about the training seems to be contradictory with your vision of this event : that both experienced logias fails at the same moment from the same attack, does it have a high probability ?


Ace probably thinks Blackbeard should have been able to automatically turn into his element because that is what most relatively experienced logias are able to do.
It depends on what his relatively experienced for you.
Of course, the logias users are not able to turn automatically (and even consciously) in logia mode the next minutes, not to say the next hour, after they eat their fruit.
The best example of it is the one in the Enies Lobby Arc (with Kaku and Kalifa) : it proves us that it need a little time for the DF users to understand what power they have and how to handle it at least.

BlackHair
April 15, 2009, 04:47 AM
@Rotten The Wizard (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1313446&postcount=23)
1. As many pointed out, BB's ability to suck everything in, makes him to a stone. He can take everything and thus he isn't supposed to move.

2. I fail to see why he can't grab and hit bigger ppl than him.

3. That is the price he has to pay for his darkness ability. It is actually a weakness, which he himself stated. I don't see how this point is supposed to prove that he hasn't masted his ability.

But you have convinced me, given the time he probably has still room to improve. I just thought that he is old, so he must have already mastered his ability, but that wouldn't affect the short time, he is with this fruit.


Even back in Nanohana, it was shown that Ace had not even achieved the ability to automatically turn into his element yet (unlike someone like Crocodile and Kizaru), causing him (and Smoker) to be sent flying when Luffy used his Gum Gum Rocket.No Ace already had the ability to automatically turn into his element. As u can see he fought Smoker in a complete fire form. Also Smoker himself, who proofed in Loguetown that he can automatically turn into his element, was crashed alongside Ace by Luffy.

My explanation, they need to be aware that get attacked, so they switch from "physical" to "automatically turn into element form".


i wonder how blackbeard would do if he gets poisoned by maggalen
Maybe he could suck the poison out of his body by the darkness, similar how he did to the fire from Ace. But poison mixes with the blood, so I'm not sure if BB can do that. It's fictional, so we have to ask Oda lol

Razh
April 15, 2009, 05:07 AM
He can grab people who are bigger than him, but it's not always a good thing. If he were to drag Kuma, for example, towards him, it would help Kuma more than it would help him.
But that's my opinion. Base on what we saw Kuma and Pacifistas are able to do.

hisoga
April 15, 2009, 08:08 AM
i dont why people alway saying that BB doesn't mastered his df right now.. if it is becoz he cant evade attak like other logia's, i think that would be stupid coz that make 'logia type fruit' = 'paramecia type fruit'.. the only different is the user master or not his df.. so one day, some people will say that mr.3 and magellan is logia df user coz they are completely master their df power someday later on.. this is why people alway having confusing about doku-doku df and another paramecia df similar to it...

can evade like others logia's user doesn't mean weak and can be kill by someone that has gun, sword or anything that are lethal.. if that how people thing, then, luffy is<<<<<<<<<<<<<<zoro..he will die instantly coz zoro will cut him half..

as we seen at the beginning of the story, people that has df power is very strong and scary bcoz all the unique and weird ability are rare in the normal world(outside grandline).. df are considered a legend... but as the story goes-later in the grandline we see that many people are posses this power and the only thing that make the person godlike is what kind of df power he/she posses-like enel..

but as we seen, as more real godlike character reveal/introduce, the story become more and more epic, we now that depending on df only like sir Croodile(he's fully mastered his df power as he stated) will only make you 'super' but not real godlike or bad ass like shank and mihawk... the real winner is back to the basic... the one that posses real skill,strength,luck,intelligent and spirit will win..and df is just a bonus...

what make me think like this is because since the beginning of the story, when oda introduce logia type df, i always ask myself why does this people -smoke,ace,etc- that are become the pirate king or king of the world.. they are invincible...

right now i begin to understand why...

that all..thanks for reading and sorry 4 the opinian and bad english..

Razh
April 15, 2009, 08:41 AM
i dont why people alway saying that BB doesn't mastered his df right now.. if it is becoz he cant evade attak like other logia's, i think that would be stupid coz that make 'logia type fruit' = 'paramecia type fruit'.. the only different is the user master or not his df.. so one day, some people will say that mr.3 and magellan is logia df user coz they are completely master their df power someday later on.. this is why people alway having confusing about doku-doku df and another paramecia df similar to it...


You can't master your devil fruit in a couple of months or more. And Blackbeard will never be able to evade attacks like other logias.
If Blackbeard has already mastered his devil fruit, than he's as good as gone, cause with what he has shown against Ace, he has no chance of becoming a Pirate King.

RichardMNixon
April 15, 2009, 09:38 AM
cause with what he has shown against Ace.

What he has shown is that he was completely unharmed (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/441/17/) by one of the strongest characters in the series. http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/486/03/

Razh
April 15, 2009, 09:52 AM
What he has shown is that he was completely unharmed (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/441/17/) by one of the strongest characters in the series. http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/486/03/

Hardly. For one thing, Blackbeard wasn't completely unharmed. Not in the version that I have read, anyway. And the pic you provided doesn't prove that he was unharmed either.
Second, Ace is hardly one of the strongest characters in the series. Well, it depends. I'd say he's among the 30 strongest or so, but that's just a rough guess. When you put in the fact that we haven't even caught a glimpse of the New World, anything is possible.

Also, don't you think that someone who wants to be a Pirate King should display a little bit more than Blackbeard has?
And do you think that Blackbeard has trained his DF usage to the highest limit?

There are still a lot of things Blackbeard could be able to do with his fruit. Like firing dark matter projectiles or making himself lighter for example.
After all, he does have an ability to release the matter that has been absorbed by him. That's not what black holes are known to do. I think he could be able to increase or decrease his own weight or mass. It would be only fair since he cannot become intangible.

Rotten The Wizard
April 15, 2009, 10:34 AM
I wont consider BB DF fully mastered until he can cover his whole body with the darkness and come up with some more convenient techniques.

Bottom line is Ace landed a ton of hits on him. Had that Been Mihawk he would be as good as dead.
Because of his weaknesses he should be able to evade and have a sound defense. He has neither.
Its a really dumb strategy to allow yourself to get hit in the chest by your opponents attacks. Some people out there only need to hit you once to kill you

case and point, thats a fact.

BlackHair
April 15, 2009, 02:21 PM
I wont consider BB DF fully mastered until he can cover his whole body with the darkness and come up with some more convenient techniques
If Blackbeard has already mastered his devil fruit, than he's as good as gone, cause with what he has shown against Ace, he has no chance of becoming a Pirate King.
I don't understand why ppl think BB went all out on Ace, that he was showing us all. Ace was clearly not strong enough, to force BB to go all out. It is about Damage lines. Those are seen if a character is losing or is getting weaker in some way. Those are defined by blood, dirt, pain etc. They can appear directly on the body of the character or just on clothes/equipment they are wearing.

Before the fight: Ace (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/440/12/) || BB (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/434/19/) After the fight : Ace || BB (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/441/19/)
Both look clean and unwounded before their fights. Right before the end, Ace is bleeding, panting and is down on the ground. Now look at BB, he is perfectly fine: not panting, no injuries and no dirt. Even though he got hit by fire. IMO Oda is clearly emphasizing that BB won the fight easily. He was forced to use his darkness ability, you can give Ace that much credit, but not more. BB didn't went all out, otherwise he would have been exhaust. So basically he wasn't showing us all of his capabilities. Which would be stupid on Oda, if he is already showing all of BB's ability, a character who will probably play major role later.

But at the same time I agree, since he isn't that long in posses of the darkness fruit, there could be still room for him to grow in that point. But on the other hand, given his age, experience on sea (serving decades under WB) and his role as the final foe of Luffy, he could be also a genius (there have been similar character in other manga, so it's not rly unlikely), who already mastered his ability. Anyway there is no way telling for sure, but at this point there are no real evidence pointing out that he hasn't mastered his fruit.

Another example on Damage Lines: Before the fight Ray||Kiz (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/512/02-03/) After the fight Ray||Kiz (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/513/11/)
If you compare Ray's coat before and after the fight, you can see that there is dirt on. Now if we compare that with Kizaru, we can safely assume, if Kiz and Ray would have fought without interpretation, Kiz mostly likely would have won. Since the dirt on Ray emphasise that he is getting weaker, means he is losing. But over all that fight was quite evenly, unlike that of BB vs Ace.

Rotten The Wizard
April 15, 2009, 02:52 PM
S I guess my your logic BB exposed his chest and took Aces fire lances for fun of it

Dice
April 15, 2009, 02:56 PM
Only because he hasn't shown more doesn't mean he can't do more.
He wanted to show has what he is capable of and didn't want to kill him and did never try to harm him seriously (until the end of the fight). He wanted to show his superioty so that maybe Ace would acknowledge it and that he would join him.

I don't think he has mastered it now, there is still room to grow I guess. But I do think that he has more up his sleeve than he has shown so far.

And being hit by a sword does not autmatically kill you (if you are fat xD)
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/33/17/

I don't know if someone said it here or if it's another thread. But I don't think that Kuma is able to repel gravity. So far he has only been able to repel matter (and pain/fatigue). But who knows...maybe he can even repel time....

About the logia turns automatically into their element thing: I always thought that they need to be aware that they will be hit or might be hit. They need to know that there might be a situation were they might be hit.
So I'm agreeing with Blackbea...ähm sorry I mean blackhair :D

Rotten The Wizard
April 15, 2009, 03:20 PM
Only because he hasn't shown more doesn't mean he can't do more.
He wanted to show has what he is capable of and didn't want to kill him and did never try to harm him seriously (until the end of the fight). He wanted to show his superioty so that maybe Ace would acknowledge it and that he would join him.

I don't think he has mastered it now, there is still room to grow I guess. But I do think that he has more up his sleeve than he has shown so far.

And being hit by a sword does not autmatically kill you (if you are fat xD)
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/33/17/

I don't know if someone said it here or if it's another thread. But I don't think that Kuma is able to repel gravity. So far he has only been able to repel matter (and pain/fatigue). But who knows...maybe he can even repel time....

About the logia turns automatically into their element thing: I always thought that they need to be aware that they will be hit or might be hit. They need to know that there might be a situation were they might be hit.
So I'm agreeing with Blackbea...ähm sorry I mean blackhair :D


lol bad example.
Zoro was a noob then, now he can cut steel. We're talking about the big leagues now.
I would have more respect for BB's fighting still if he used Tekkai but as of right now he has a major weakness

BlackHair
April 15, 2009, 03:35 PM
S I guess my your logic BB exposed his chest and took Aces fire lances for fun of itHe took it, coz he couldn't let that bypass like other logia. (Panel 5) (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/441/11/) In this point, I highly doubt there will be any improvement, it is the price he has to pay. Anyway fact is, Oda didn't draw any damage lines on BB, so that didn't rly hurt/weakened/affected him. Now thinking like this, yes he could have taken it out of fun..but that probably wasn't the case. About his screaming, while he was hit by Ace's fire attacks: I read that as a natural reaction, like pressing on a wound if u are slapped (real life).

My point is just, that Ace clearly wasn't on BB's fighting level. Thus he wasn't able to force all out of BB and that's why BB didn't showed us all of his ability. I mean why should you go all out, if you can be beat him with just 40% ? (just an example). Also like mentioned above, it would be dumb by Oda, if BB already revealed us everything.

About swordsman vs non swordsman fights: those discussion are always tricky. Cause Oda (as far as I can remember) never let a swordsman directly hit the opponents body right at the beginning of a fight.

Dice (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1314917&postcount=48), I mostly agree with ur post. And I'm glad that u share the same opinion like me on the auto logia thing. Also nice find with the sword-fat thing lol

Gecko Moria
April 15, 2009, 04:02 PM
I'm not fully convinced about this example as Smoker was wearing a kairouseki sword on his back.
And do you not think that Ace and Smoker are enough experienced to avoid - as you supposed it to be a failure of the both logias to prevent the damages - a surprise Luffy attack ?
This supposition about the training seems to be contradictory with your vision of this event : that both experienced logias fails at the same moment from the same attack, does it have a high probability ?


It depends on what his relatively experienced for you.
Of course, the logias users are not able to turn automatically (and even consciously) in logia mode the next minutes, not to say the next hour, after they eat their fruit.
The best example of it is the one in the Enies Lobby Arc (with Kaku and Kalifa) : it proves us that it need a little time for the DF users to understand what power they have and how to handle it at least.

Smoker is not an idiotic. He wears thick clothes and carries around the seastone-tipped weapon on his back so that the tip never comes in contact with him and nullifies his DF abilities.

Both Ace and Smoker are relatively young compared to the older generation (Whitebeard, Kizaru, Rayleigh, Kuma) and DF powers are difficult to master (especailly the logia type).

Because at that time (maybe not now) they had not yet achieved the ability to turn automatically into their element and were caught off guard they were able to be hit.

However, had they seen it coming they could have turned into their element, since they would have had time to turn. This is different to how Crocodile and Kizaru don't need to will it to happen because it happens automatically, even when they are taken by surprise.
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/510/03/
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/510/04/




No Ace already had the ability to automatically turn into his element. As u can see he fought Smoker in a complete fire form. Also Smoker himself, who proofed in Loguetown that he can automatically turn into his element, was crashed alongside Ace by Luffy.

My explanation, they need to be aware that get attacked, so they switch from "physical" to "automatically turn into element form".


Having the ability to completely turn into fire or smoke does not mean they also have the ability to automatically turn into their element without thinking about it themselves. Your explanation that they need to be aware of the attack on order for them to be able to switch form is correct for Ace and Smoker. However, people like Kizaru and Crocodile do not need to be aware, as it is an automatic response since they have reached higher levels of power with their fruits.

Rotten The Wizard
April 15, 2009, 04:10 PM
He took it, coz he couldn't let that bypass like other logia. (Panel 5) (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/441/11/) In this point, I highly doubt there will be any improvement, it is the price he has to pay. Anyway fact is, Oda didn't draw any damage lines on BB, so that didn't rly hurt/weakened/affected him. Now thinking like this, yes he could have taken it out of fun..but that probably wasn't the case. About his screaming, while he was hit by Ace's fire attacks: I read that as a natural reaction, like pressing on a wound if u are slapped (real life).


that's exactly my point. He should've figured out a way to compensate for that considering he cant evade attacks.

Are you seriously saying that you dont think BB can master his powers to the point where his whole body is covered in darkness?
Cause thats the next logical step IMO

I know he was clearly superior to ace but He's not invincible.
You say you cant see anymore improvements so that means you believe that BB right now is at the Level of an admiral? Or he's the most powerful pirate out there. Atleast thats what you're implying.

If he doesnt have any room for improvement then by all means He's already the most powerful person in the manga since he's the ultimate villain

BlackHair
April 15, 2009, 04:30 PM
I see, then there was a misunderstanding. I do think like u there is room for improvement (like said before, u guys convinced me on this). Since he isn't long in posses of his fruit, but that is only a assumption. We don't know for sure, if there is still room, maybe he already mastered it too all extent. But didn't showed us, cause Ace didn't forced him to. So we can't base that on merely his fight with Ace (this was my point).



Are you seriously saying that you dont think BB can master his powers to the point where his whole body is covered in darkness?
Cause thats the next logical step IMO
hm. I don't think so, cause that makes him intangible like other logia. But he is different, a special case. I rather expect him to be able to create sth like Chibaku Tensei (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/439/06-07/). A black hole which he could threw and create in whatever place he likes. But well u can't predict Oda :P


However, people like Kizaru and Crocodile do not need to be aware, as it is an automatic response since they have reached higher levels of power with their fruits.On what are u basing this on?

Rotten The Wizard
April 15, 2009, 04:38 PM
Covering his body with darkness wouldnt make him intangible, in a sense. In a sense it would but not like the other logia's, he still wont be able to let things pass through him.
Him covering his body in darkness would mean that Touching him would be lethal, since you would get sucked in. He can improve to a style more like Magellans, which is sound.

We know that Luffy will Master haki so BB wont be invincible

Razh
April 15, 2009, 04:46 PM
I'm more in favor of some other powers since that would make him too powerful. Drawing in stuff that is in the field of his darkness is a nice way to balance out things.

But as I wrote before I think he should be able to do something more interesting. Nobody bothered to discuss about it though.

Well, since he is darkness and can produce dark holes, why not produce dark matter projectiles? Like small dark matter comets. He can produce darkness anyway.
And since he can do stuff that black holes can't do, like release absorbed objects, maybe he can do some other interesting stuff. Like increase or decrease his own weight or mass, making himself heavier or lighter. You know, manipulate gravity in order to make himself more mobile. That would be interesting. And it would compensate a little for his inability to avoid attacks.

Gecko Moria
April 15, 2009, 05:29 PM
On what are u basing this on?

They have evidently had their fruits for a longer period of time, therefore having more experience with it.
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/510/03/
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/510/04/
Example of Kizaru being taken by surprise (i.e. not being aware) but still surviving~
And I'm certain if you take a good look through the Baroque Works saga, you can find an example of Crocodile automatically turning as well.

BlackHair
April 15, 2009, 06:05 PM
We had a similar discussion (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44418&page=16) months ago (Tenryuken, Onomatopoeia and me).

Like u said, out of surprise (out of nowhere) means if the logia user is not aware (prepared) of what is coming next. As Luffy crashed into Smoker and Ace, both were not prepared, since they were focused on each other. Now about Appo and Kizaru, I wouldn't count that as "out of nowhere". As u can see, he revealed himself from hiding and started to play music (Panel 5) (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/509/17/). In the next panels (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/509/18/) he is playing that music, Oda even focused on that for about a page, only then he hits him. Kizaru had plenty of time to "switch". It is not out of surprise, if u reveal urself and start to play music and I also don't think "switching" takes a lot of time.

Besides Kizaru was fighting those guys. He was must have been prepared to be get hit in anyway, since he was fighting more than one opponent, with different DF ability, of which he didn't had any knowledge.


They have evidently had their fruits for a longer period of time, therefore having more experience with it. I agree with u. But I think to learn switching is one of the easiest things of the logia abilitys. If we consider that Kalifa and Kaku, who just eaten their fruits before fighting the SHs, had plenty of control over their ability, especially Kaku, who could already transform into all forms of zoan.

About Croco, Im too lazy to check right now, but Im planing on re-watching the Alabasta arc, so I will pay attention to that. But atm I don't recall any events which could disprove my viewpoint.

Dice
April 15, 2009, 06:09 PM
Well you could still say that he was in "combat-mode"...ready to be hit. He couldn't see the attack coming so he couldn't react by himself but his body was still able to do it.

Just imagine that Ace saw the bullets coming and the very moment they were about to hit him he choose to let them through. Between each bullet there was a little intervall that must be to short to react. So it's reasonable that he stayed in his "let them through"-mode. And I guess for a logia it shoudn't be to difficult to stay in this mode for the time of fight.

"Why could Luffy hit him anyway if he just could stay in this mode 24/7?" you might ask. Well my answer would be that it's just to stressful to think that you could be hit every second of a day. You need some time to relax. And most of the high tier should be able to handle an attack (though this makes ambushes on logia possible).


A little bit offtopic. But maybe somebody knows the Thief-series. You could knock out your opponents with the black jack as long they didn't know you were around. As soon they were cautious because of something (a sound, a corpse) it wasn't possible to knock them out like before (if I remeber correctly).

BlackHair
April 15, 2009, 06:22 PM
I actually had pretty similar thoughts like u Dice. About switching into different modes. At this point I don't see any other logical explanation.

I forget to write that above about Kiz's statement (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/510/04/). In stephen translation Kizaru said: "Ooooh...That was a surprise..." (http://www.mangascreener.com/stephen/onepiece/chapter510.txt). I interpret that as he wasn't expecting to get blown up by just music. It is not like the crash with Ace/Smoker. He saw an attack coming, since he was right in front of his eyes.

Gecko Moria
April 15, 2009, 07:29 PM
We had a similar discussion (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44418&page=16) months ago (Tenryuken, Onomatopoeia and me).

Like u said, out of surprise (out of nowhere) means if the logia user is not aware (prepared) of what is coming next. As Luffy crashed into Smoker and Ace, both were not prepared, since they were focused on each other. Now about Appo and Kizaru, I wouldn't count that as "out of nowhere". As u can see, he revealed himself from hiding and started to play music (Panel 5) (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/509/17/). In the next panels (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/509/18/) he is playing that music, Oda even focused on that for about a page, only then he hits him. Kizaru had plenty of time to "switch". It is not out of surprise, if u reveal urself and start to play music and I also don't think "switching" takes a lot of time.

Besides Kizaru was fighting those guys. He was must have been prepared to be get hit in anyway, since he was fighting more than one opponent, with different DF ability, of which he didn't had any knowledge.

I agree with u. But I think to learn switching is one of the easiest things of the logia abilitys. If we consider that Kalifa and Kaku, who just eaten their fruits before fighting the SHs, had plenty of control over their ability, especially Kaku, who could already transform into all forms of zoan.

About Croco, Im too lazy to check right now, but Im planing on re-watching the Alabasta arc, so I will pay attention to that. But atm I don't recall any events which could disprove my viewpoint.

Kizaru didn't know the music would blow him to pieces (generally music doesn't :XD) that's why he was surprised. Any normal person would be dead after getting blown up but Kizaru isn't even though he didn't see it coming and had not already turned into his element (i.e. light).

I think the problem here is that you do not understand what I'm arguing. You think I'm saying that the logia ability to transform into their element state is extremely difficult. This is not the case. As you said above, learning to switch states is one of the easiest bits of a logia's abilities. All the logias can do it when they want to or think about it. What I'm saying is difficult is the ability to switch when they have not thought about it i.e. automatically. So even when someone launches a sneak attack on them, the attack will still unaffect them. Like the Kizaru example.

RichardMNixon
April 15, 2009, 09:26 PM
Bottom line is Ace landed a ton of hits on him. Had that Been Mihawk he would be as good as dead.

You're using this as an argument that Blackbeard is weak? He can take hits that others need to dodge, what a weakling?

And I agree with Dice, people in one piece get chopped with swords every other minute and don't immediately drop dead. Blackbeard didn't try to dodge attacks because he doesn't have to, he doesn't need to compensate, he can take it. If Mihawk can't that's Mihawk's problem.

Gecko Moria
April 15, 2009, 09:57 PM
You're using this as an argument that Blackbeard is weak? He can take hits that others need to dodge, what a weakling?

And I agree with Dice, people in one piece get chopped with swords every other minute and don't immediately drop dead. Blackbeard didn't try to dodge attacks because he doesn't have to, he doesn't need to compensate, he can take it. If Mihawk can't that's Mihawk's problem.

I agree that Blackbeard is strong and can take all sorts of attacks without much of a problem. However, Mihawk isn't "just another swordsman", he's the "greatest swordsman in the world" for a reason. Even Blackbeard won't be able to withstand many hits from him.

RichardMNixon
April 15, 2009, 10:14 PM
I agree but "won't be able to withstand many hits" is a lot different from the "Blackbeard will instantly die if within 10 feet of Mihawk" that most people are suggesting. Mihawk would be one of his toughest opponents because his strength is not based on a Devil Fruit, so he can fight Blackbeard at his full power.

Additionally, couldn't most of the arguments against Blackbeard be applied to Whitebeard? Basically what you've been saying about Enel is that if you aren't Luffy, you automatically die. You don't think Whitebeard could take Enel? Or an admiral for that matter? By your logic, all we've seen of him is having his strikes blocked by a guy with one arm. What a loser, right?

Gecko Moria
April 15, 2009, 10:25 PM
I agree but "won't be able to withstand many hits" is a lot different from the "Blackbeard will instantly die if within 10 feet of Mihawk" that most people are suggesting. Mihawk would be one of his toughest opponents because his strength is not based on a Devil Fruit, so he can fight Blackbeard at his full power.

Additionally, couldn't most of the arguments against Blackbeard be applied to Whitebeard? Basically what you've been saying about Enel is that if you aren't Luffy, you automatically die. You don't think Whitebeard could take Enel? Or an admiral for that matter? By your logic, all we've seen of him is having his strikes blocked by a guy with one arm. What a loser, right?

Yeah Blackbeard wouldn't die from one attack from Mihawk, the two of them would really have to fight it out and the outcome could go either way.

Indeed, many people would lose to Eneru because they are not able to stop themselves from being electrocuted. But characters like Whitebeard and the Admirals (among others) could fight him and not die instantly (probably defeat him). Whitebeard doesn't have his "stongest man in the world" title for nothing and we have already witnessed the power of 2 of the admirals. They wouldn't go down that easily either.

Furthermore, I do not think Eneru is an insurmountable god. The man has his flaws. For example, he seems pretty useless in melee combat (i.e. without his DF powers) and he's too arrogant, leading him to make devastating mistakes (e.g. thinking Luffy's attacks would pass through him). I was merely commenting that he would not lose to Blackbeard as easily as some people have described. Blackbeard is no god either.

RichardMNixon
April 15, 2009, 10:55 PM
No, I agree with you, especially about Enel's physical weakness. I was referring to Razh and others.

It's like we assume that Whitebeard, Shanks, and Mihawk are all incredible because Oda told us so, but for some reason we don't apply the same lens to Ace and Blackbeard. For all we know Ace could have kicked the stuffing out of Moria without using his DF; Hogback's surprise at his capture makes that seem not too far fetched. I think Blackbeard and Ace are on a different level from the Straw Hat fights we've seen so far, and those include Enel.

Rotten The Wizard
April 15, 2009, 11:19 PM
lol yea One hit from Mihawk and BB WOULD be dead.
He destroyed a Galleon effortlessly. Saying BB could withstand one of those to the chest is just pure ignorance

Gecko Moria
April 16, 2009, 03:24 AM
lol yea One hit from Mihawk and BB WOULD be dead.
He destroyed a Galleon effortlessly. Saying BB could withstand one of those to the chest is just pure ignorance

Blackbeard survived heaps of things that would have been considered fatal for most people (e.g. Ace's fire lances), so why not Mihawk's blade? Mihawk's blade is more deadly they Ace's fire attacks, but still, I can't see Blackbeard getting killed in one hit from any sword (unless it's through the head). And I'm pretty sure he wouldn't let Mihawk strike him in the chest easily either. The problem is that it's difficult to hit someone in an important area. I was assuming that a hit meant a normal hit, say, a cut on the arm not a massive stab in the chest.

However, Mihawk would have a major advantage in a battle against Blackbeard since Blackbeard relies heavily on is ability to draw people in towards himself and then smash them with his incredible strength. This would not be so effective against Mihawk, because being a swordsman Mihawk most likely prefers close combat more.

Dice
April 16, 2009, 07:09 AM
Kizaru didn't know the music would blow him to pieces (generally music doesn't :XD) that's why he was surprised. Any normal person would be dead after getting blown up but Kizaru isn't even though he didn't see it coming and had not already turned into his element (i.e. light).

I think the problem here is that you do not understand what I'm arguing. You think I'm saying that the logia ability to transform into their element state is extremely difficult. This is not the case. As you said above, learning to switch states is one of the easiest bits of a logia's abilities. All the logias can do it when they want to or think about it. What I'm saying is difficult is the ability to switch when they have not thought about it i.e. automatically. So even when someone launches a sneak attack on them, the attack will still unaffect them. Like the Kizaru example.


I agree with you that he couldn't know what attacks him (the music). But I wouldn't be quite clever to just stand around and enjoy it (though it's kinda funny ;)). The least he has to expect is that somethings gonna happen, who knows Apo just might distract him. That's something an Admiral should always consider.
And like you said "turning into their elements" should be a basic. If he only needs to think about it than he can do it during the whole fight I guess.

Ace and Smoker were hit by Luffy because they didn't know that there were actually a situation that could be harmful in any way. Additionally both of them should be able to resist some attacks.

Crocodile is different. I could imagine that he is always cautious and therefore able to turn in his element any time. But that's because he doesn't trust anybody (except himself).
Ace on the other hand seems to be a somewhat carefree person. So it makes sense that he doesn't expect an attack 24/7.

BlackHair
April 16, 2009, 08:44 AM
Kizaru didn't know the music would blow him to pieces (generally music doesn't :XD) that's why he was surprised. Any normal person would be dead after getting blown up but Kizaru isn't even though he didn't see it coming and had not already turned into his element (i.e. light). Kizaru was fighting 4-5 pirates, thus he was in "combat-mode". Consequently I believe he already had his logia switched on. About that music, Im not saying he was expecting to be attacked by music, but I believe he was expecting to be attacked in any kind of way. Though doesn't matter, since he probably was the whole time in "logia auto form" (damn we need a official word for that.. xD)

About ur second part of past, I do understand what you are saying. But I believe you are making it too complicated. I think it is more easy. Here (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/507/14/) Kizaru is attacked by a bullet, which hits his physical body, as u can the see (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/507/15/) the smoke on Kiz's neck. So even he must be aware, but in this case, he didn't bothered to switch, since those guys were too weak.

About BB vs Mwk, BB can surety take at least on hit from Mwk. If u are thinking he would go down by just one hit then u are terribly underestimating him. Though I agree, at this point I can see him only in disadvantage, same with BB vs Kuma.

RichardMNixon
April 16, 2009, 09:26 AM
lol yea One hit from Mihawk and BB WOULD be dead.
He destroyed a Galleon effortlessly. Saying BB could withstand one of those to the chest is just pure ignorance

Ace's Hiken destroyed like five of them, what's your point?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngXDSARoIRs

Rotten The Wizard
April 16, 2009, 09:29 AM
^^^ He didnt land any attacks of that magnitude on BB. The ones he got off were WAY smaller

If you believe that BB can take this http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/49/13/ to the chest and survive then there's no point in me arguing my point. Assuming that BB can withstand an attack that can cut steel and survive sounds more like Fanboyism to me so I'm done with that particular matter.

BlackHair
April 16, 2009, 09:50 AM
That has nothing to do with Fanboyism. Just 'cause Mwk showed some impressive footage on material things, doesn't mean the same effect will work on character. Is actually one of those shounen manga things..

Some examples:
Luff's Gear 3 was able to crack up steel (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/403/19/), yet Lucci took one of those fists directly and survived (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/421/18-19/).
Ace's hiken took out a few ships (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/159/18-19/), yet BB survived (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/440/16/) that.
Kizaru's laser took out a mangrove (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/507/16/) and with the same laser Kuma melted on TB steel (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/485/09/), yet Zoro took one of those and survived (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/511/15/).


So just cause Mwk was able to cut that giant ship without problem, doesn't mean BB would die instantly by same technique. Now you can argue if these attacks are weaker than Mwk's but that wouldn't matter. Cause damage shown on material things wouldn't be the same on character.


^^^ He didnt land any attacks of that magnitude on BB. The ones he got off were WAY smaller
Small or big doesn't matter, 'cause both have the same heat. Ace even named that with the same name. Bigger just means, that a larger field/space would be hit and destroyed and would probably consume more energy. He used a bigger hiken to destroy a larger target (a few ship) and he used the same hiken, just smaller, to hit a smaller target (BB+crew). Nothing more.

RichardMNixon
April 16, 2009, 10:01 AM
^^^ He didnt land any attacks of that magnitude on BB. The ones he got off were WAY smaller


How about this identical attack? http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/440/16/
Or this stronger one? http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/441/18/
Blackbeard was on fire, and came out of it standing and looking just fine, are you familiar with third degree burns?

Zoro can cut steel, does that mean everyone he cuts dies? Mr. 2's swan put a clean hole in cement, surely if he got one hit on Sanji's chest then Sanji would die? Why are you giving Blackbeard a realistic human damage threshold when no one else in the manga has one?

And if Mihawk is the favorite, then how by your logic is he supposed to beat Enel or an Admiral? He'd definitely have a much harder time of it than Blackbeard. We've never seen anything from him to indicate he could even beat Crocodile.

Phase
April 16, 2009, 11:07 AM
I'm not a fan of this argument personally, but I'll bring it up anyway. BB fought Shanks and didn't die (I'm completely ignoring the fact that BB wounded Shanks here). BB did not have his DF powers at the time. Shanks fought evenly with Mihawk many times during the same era. Now that BB is much more powerful, Mihawk is supposed to one shot him? That doesn't add up at all.

The thing that makes BB special is that he can take more damage than anyone else and survive. I really don't understand where people get the idea that he can get killed so easily.

Here's another interesting point, the one of historical context. Oda likes to use the real world as a basis for his writing. Blackbeard (Teach in real life, wow), is probably the single most famous pirate this world has ever known. Laffite is also a very famous pirate captain from the same era. I personally don't know any other crew that has such a historical figure as a mere crew member. Historical context puts BB and his crew far above any other pirate crew in the manga.

Rotten The Wizard
April 16, 2009, 11:30 AM
That has nothing to do with Fanboyism. Just 'cause Mwk showed some impressive footage on material things, doesn't mean the same effect will work on character. Is actually one of those shounen manga things..

Some examples:
Luff's Gear 3 was able to crack up steel (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/403/19/), yet Lucci took one of those fists directly and survived (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/421/18-19/).
Ace's hiken took out a few ships (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/159/18-19/), yet BB survived (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/440/16/) that.
Kizaru's laser took out a mangrove (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/507/16/) and with the same laser Kuma melted on TB steel (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/485/09/), yet Zoro took one of those and survived (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/511/15/).

.
well for 1 Rob Lucci was using Tekkai
2. Not the same attack
3. Again, not the same attack


How about this identical attack? http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/440/16/
Or this stronger one? http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/441/18/
Blackbeard was on fire, and came out of it standing and looking just fine, are you familiar with third degree burns?

That wasnt a direct hit



Zoro can cut steel, does that mean everyone he cuts dies? Mr. 2's swan put a clean hole in cement, surely if he got one hit on Sanji's chest then Sanji would die? Why are you giving Blackbeard a realistic human damage threshold when no one else in the manga has one?

all those are circumstancial and the fact that BB doesnt use tekkai nor is he a cyborg makes your claim of him beign virtually intangible complete ridiculous especially after he said himself that he takes are much damage or more than a regular human



And if Mihawk is the favorite, then how by your logic is he supposed to beat Enel or an Admiral? He'd definitely have a much harder time of it than Blackbeard. We've never seen anything from him to indicate he could even beat Crocodile.
I have no idea what you're talking about here


I'm not a fan of this argument personally, but I'll bring it up anyway. BB fought Shanks and didn't die (I'm completely ignoring the fact that BB wounded Shanks here). BB did not have his DF powers at the time. Shanks fought evenly with Mihawk many times during the same era. Now that BB is much more powerful, Mihawk is supposed to one shot him? That doesn't add up at all.

Well for starters BB had a different fighting style when he fought shanks plus that was a long time ago

And I never claimed that Mihawk would one-hit-KO him. I'm simply stating that with his weakness 1 attack can kill him.
The same way one of the pacifista's lazers (the one used on Uroge) through the heart would also Kill BB.
But I guess by your logic He would survive that



The thing that makes BB special is that he can take more damage than anyone else and survive. I really don't understand where people get the idea that he can get killed so easily.

Baseless claim. We havent seen how those attacks do against other people but it wouldnt be a stretch to assume that Ussop Could've survived those attacks as well



Here's another interesting point, the one of historical context. Oda likes to use the real world as a basis for his writing. Blackbeard (Teach in real life, wow), is probably the single most famous pirate this world has ever known. Laffite is also a very famous pirate captain from the same era. I personally don't know any other crew that has such a historical figure as a mere crew member. Historical context puts BB and his crew far above any other pirate crew in the manga.

Irrelevant.

BlackHair
April 16, 2009, 11:48 AM
Im just quoting the part which is accosted to me.


well for 1 Rob Lucci was using Tekkai
2. Not the same attack
3. Again, not the same attack
Why does it matter? It was still his human body which was hit.
Yes it is. Both are named "Hiken", which means fire fist. In the manga are used different words, due to different scanlation groups. But you can check it on the anime version. Ace clearly uses in both attacks "hiken" as name for the attack. Maybe the size is different, but like explained above, it is fire, so it depends on heat not size.
He uses his laser shooting leg in both attacks..
Anyway, I believe we share the same viewpoint on "damage shown on material things don't have the same effect on character", since u didn't replied to that. So why still the discussion?

Edit: I found those clips on Youtube. He clearly uses in both version hiken!

Ace Alabasta (1:00) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngXDSARoIRs)
Ace vs BB (4:06) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nNEaxsbmJs&feature=related)

Phase
April 16, 2009, 12:04 PM
lol yea One hit from Mihawk and BB WOULD be dead.



And I never claimed that Mihawk would one-hit-KO him.


Awesome.




The same way one of the pacifista's lazers (the one used on Uroge) through the heart would also Kill BB.
But I guess by your logic He would survive that


Urouge didn't die, neither did anyone of the other handful of people who were fried by that laser. Hell, Urouge got back up to fight after he got hit. But BB would die right? Since you think he's weaker than everyone else.




Baseless claim. We havent seen how those attacks do against other people but it wouldnt be a stretch to assume that Ussop Could've survived those attacks as well


MY statements are baseless? My god, read some of your own. I agree that Usopp could probably survive those attacks. However, he wouldn't get up smiling, that's for sure.




Irrelevant.

Ignorant. Go read Oda's interviews and SBS columns and you'll realize how much he cares about his real world connections.

RichardMNixon
April 16, 2009, 02:16 PM
all those are circumstancial and the fact that BB doesnt use tekkai nor is he a cyborg makes your claim of him beign virtually intangible complete ridiculous especially after he said himself that he takes are much damage or more than a regular human.

Phase covered most of what I would have said. I'm not sure why you'd mention tekkai or cyborg here because neither of my examples involved those. I also never mentioned intangibility. He does take more damage than a regular human BECAUSE HE CAN. You have this ridiculous assumption that Blackbeard is about as tough as a noname marine and that he beat Ace because Ace's attacks are just little spring breezes to cheer you up on a cold winter day.

My comment on Enel was on a different subject and more directed at Razh, but I should think it's pretty self explanatory. If Enel or Kizaru will kill Blackbeard before the latter can reel them in, then what is Mihawk supposed to do? The same goes for Whitebeard. They would be completely helpless against Enel or Kizaru according to your logic. I'm certain Mihawk could beat Enel, which means there's information we're missing that I'm trying to account for and you're trying to avoid, at least as long as it means Blackbeard loses.

On the history note, the crew that killed the real Blackbeard reported to have shot him five times and given him twenty "dismal cuts in several parts of his body". He didn't die until they finally cut off his head.

Edit: Also, what is a "direct hit" with a gigantic blast of fire? It's not like there was some little point at the front and it only does damage if that hits him in the pupil, Blackbeard was completely engulfed in fire. He was on fire after the attack ended.

Rotten The Wizard
April 16, 2009, 09:39 PM
lol I've grown tired of this argument.

I give up, I guess BB is Currently the strongest bastard in this manga and nobody is even near the level where they can injure him. Even without tekkai or any other defensive ability...

BlackHair
April 17, 2009, 02:21 AM
You are exaggerating and missing our point. No one claims BB to be the strongest character. I still think at this very moment in sheer fighting power that WB is the strongest, but that is another story. BB is not invincible, which would be absurd. And there are many ppl in his equal fighting level.

Our point is that BB's physical endurance is extraordinary high, maybe he has even the highest in one piece. Through that he can take more hits than any other and could still survive/be fine. He proofed that while fighting Ace. U can take that as his defence ability, if u want. That's why the darkness fruit, which unlike other logia gives him a all-time phyiscal body, fits his character very well. Considering this, he can take, assuming Mwk would hit his chest with full power, at least 1hit without going down.

Like u I'm tired of this discussion. 3vs1 is.. well not fair and I dislike discussion like this. So let me apologize, if I hit ur nerve during our argument, wasn't my intention.

Gecko Moria
April 17, 2009, 05:20 AM
I agree with you that he couldn't know what attacks him (the music). But I wouldn't be quite clever to just stand around and enjoy it (though it's kinda funny ;)). The least he has to expect is that somethings gonna happen, who knows Apo just might distract him. That's something an Admiral should always consider.
And like you said "turning into their elements" should be a basic. If he only needs to think about it than he can do it during the whole fight I guess.

Ace and Smoker were hit by Luffy because they didn't know that there were actually a situation that could be harmful in any way. Additionally both of them should be able to resist some attacks.

Crocodile is different. I could imagine that he is always cautious and therefore able to turn in his element any time. But that's because he doesn't trust anybody (except himself).
Ace on the other hand seems to be a somewhat carefree person. So it makes sense that he doesn't expect an attack 24/7.


Kizaru was fighting 4-5 pirates, thus he was in "combat-mode". Consequently I believe he already had his logia switched on. About that music, Im not saying he was expecting to be attacked by music, but I believe he was expecting to be attacked in any kind of way. Though doesn't matter, since he probably was the whole time in "logia auto form" (damn we need a official word for that.. xD)

About ur second part of past, I do understand what you are saying. But I believe you are making it too complicated. I think it is more easy. Here (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/507/14/) Kizaru is attacked by a bullet, which hits his physical body, as u can the see (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/507/15/) the smoke on Kiz's neck. So even he must be aware, but in this case, he didn't bothered to switch, since those guys were too weak.

About BB vs Mwk, BB can surety take at least on hit from Mwk. If u are thinking he would go down by just one hit then u are terribly underestimating him. Though I agree, at this point I can see him only in disadvantage, same with BB vs Kuma.

I presumed that Kizaru was experienced enough with his Devil Fruit to not need to think about it to turn into his element i.e. he turns automatically. But since he was fighting against 4 captains, he might've decided to be more careful, so your theory works as well.

Take a careful look at my previous posts:

Blackbeard survived heaps of things that would have been considered fatal for most people (e.g. Ace's fire lances), so why not Mihawk's blade? Mihawk's blade is more deadly they Ace's fire attacks, but still, I can't see Blackbeard getting killed in one hit from any sword (unless it's through the head). And I'm pretty sure he wouldn't let Mihawk strike him in the chest easily either.

I do not believe Blackbeard would die in one hit from Mihawk. I merely think that Blackbeard is at a disadvantage because Mihawk, as a swordsman, would have an advantage in close combat.

PS: However, if Mihawk manages to land a critical attack on Blackbeard's chest or a a powerful hit on his neck or head, Blackbeard will die. No human being can withstand a hit like that.


lol I've grown tired of this argument.

I give up, I guess BB is Currently the strongest bastard in this manga and nobody is even near the level where they can injure him. Even without tekkai or any other defensive ability...

Are you kidding me? You are completely over-rating Blackbeard. Not only are many characters near and at his leve, but still more surpass him. lHe may be the last opponent but he still has a ways to go before being the strongest character in One Piece. What about the Admirals? The rest of the Shichibukai? (who, for many of them, we have not seen the full extent of their powers yet) What about the Yonkou?
[hr]

You are exaggerating and missing our point. No one claims BB to be the strongest character. I still think at this very moment in sheer fighting power that WB is the strongest, but that is another story. BB is not invincible, which would be absurd. And there are many ppl in his equal fighting level.

Our point is that BB's physical endurance is extraordinary high, maybe he has even the highest in one piece. Through that he can take more hits than any other and could still survive/be fine. He proofed that while fighting Ace. U can take that as his defence ability, if u want. That's why the darkness fruit, which unlike other logia gives him a all-time phyiscal body, fits his character very well. Considering this, he can take, assuming Mwk would hit his chest with full power, at least 1hit without going down.

Like u I'm tired of this discussion. 3vs1 is.. well not fair and I dislike discussion like this. So let me apologize, if I hit ur nerve during our argument, wasn't my intention.

Thank you. For God's sake: Blackbeard is not a god.
Where is the 3 vs. 1 discussion? I believe while people agree with each other, I think everyone has their own unique opinion.

RichardMNixon
April 17, 2009, 09:51 AM
Thank you. For God's sake: Blackbeard is not a god.
Where is the 3 vs. 1 discussion? I believe while people agree with each other, I think everyone has their own unique opinion.

Hahaha

Rotten, Razh, and Lord Rayleigh had been arguing with me that Blackbeard would get killed instantly by Enel or Mihawk, then Phase and Blackhair stepped in to defend BB at which point Razh and Lord Rayleigh disappeared; sent it from 3vs1 to 1vs3.

Rotten was being sarcastic. We're not saying Blackbeard could take on the Florian Triangle monster and all three admirals at once. We're saying he's got much thicker skin and a much stronger punch than you're giving him credit for, easily putting him in the top 5 or 10 powerwise in the series.

I'd agree that Whitebeard could beat him, possibly the admirals and Mihawk as well but it would only be by a hair. We haven't see much of the yonkou so I can't speak for them.

beastboy
April 17, 2009, 07:28 PM
Oh well, I think that BB isn't kenpaichi or anything else to survive a direct hit of mihawk in the chest(zoro survived because mihawk wanted him to survive), he would probably try to evade it,but those fire lances are not toy so I assume is endurance is not normal, maybe equal to zoro or higher.

But in terms of strength and fighting hability he isn't the best shihibukai, but is Akuma no Mi is the best logia, and he fought with shanks without is akuma no mi (because ace wasn't a pirate when shanks was in the village, and he is after teach since he ate them), and shanks had the both arms (I think that he is stronger now, and that was just for honor that mihawk didn't fought him but when you hold a sword with both hands the strength is doubled) so now he is at an almost admiral rank, and he will reach it when he master is DF (aokiji has his when robin was a kid)!


My conclusion is:
BB isn't a god for now, but is in is way for it.


Side Note:
I believe he will not be the last vilain, don flamingo and the dreams look a lot more plausible for the end!

ps: Sorry for the bad english, but I'm portuguese, and BTW is my first post.

Rotten The Wizard
April 18, 2009, 03:09 AM
I know this thread is about "blackbeards strength" but what do you guys think his next move is?

We know he has a master plan. THe first step was to get the DF, second was to become a shichibukai.
It looks more to me like He only became a shichibukai to take cover under the WG.
Now there has to be an alterior motive here.
I was thinking that maybe he would gather his own fleet while hinding under the WG but I dont think the WG is stupid enough to allow the shichibukai to build up their crew/fleet right under their noses.

Any theories? Im drawing blanks on this one

Gecko Moria
April 18, 2009, 04:12 AM
I know this thread is about "blackbeards strength" but what do you guys think his next move is?

We know he has a master plan. THe first step was to get the DF, second was to become a shichibukai.
It looks more to me like He only became a shichibukai to take cover under the WG.
Now there has to be an alterior motive here.
I was thinking that maybe he would gather his own fleet while hinding under the WG but I dont think the WG is stupid enough to allow the shichibukai to build up their crew/fleet right under their noses.

Any theories? Im drawing blanks on this one

Firstly, to clear up any confusion I do not think Blackbeard is weak and I would also place him in the Top 10 Most Power People in One Piece category :blink. However, I also do not think he is unbeatable like some people do >.>, characters like the Admirals (2 of them at least), Whitebeard, Kuma etc. I would place above him. It is also my opinion that Mihawk is stronger than him purely because I believe that a gigantic and deadly sword being wielded by the greatest swordsman in the world can overcome a strong man with brute strength.

The World Government is idiotic enough to allow the Shichibukai to bulid up a massive army under their eyes. For example: Crocodile and Baroque Works, Gecko Moria and the Thriller Bark's zombie army. This has been mentioned before, but it may also be that the World Government intentionally turned a blind eye if they decided it didn't seem threatening.

Dice
April 18, 2009, 09:39 AM
I always thought that Blackbeard will get more crew members and in the end he will have something like an anti strawhatcrew (though something like that isn't that unique^^). Right now he definitly has an obvious counterparty for Chopper and for Ussop.
If he gets more members I don't think that there will only be new characters. Maybe a supernova or another character we know already (if it would be a supernova than the crew of said supernova should fall someday).

RichardMNixon
April 18, 2009, 01:42 PM
I think most of his original motivation for becoming a Schichibukai is because he isn't ready yet to take Whitebeard by himself. With the WG's help now though, he might go for it and try to topple the Pirate Prince.

dRizzit
April 19, 2009, 08:11 AM
;1309598']If Blackbeard has shown all his powers I think luffy could beat him right now... he beat Ace just by punching him and punches don't affect luffy unless they are as strong as Garp's, but I'm not sure wether he has already shown everything

I thought Garp used haki when he punched Luffy? Well, havent got any facts there.

BlackHair
April 19, 2009, 10:27 AM
Beside the remaining Yonko (Shanks, Kaido, xxx), I believe no other pirate crew could stand against the WhiteBeard pirates on a equal level. So by joining the WG, BB has now backup to fight the WB. Also as now a Shichi he could aim for the throne without having the marine tailing his ass. Well, Imo its anti-shounen like sneaky method, but that teethless bastard knows how to move.


On the history note, the crew that killed the real Blackbeard reported to have shot him five times and given him twenty "dismal cuts in several parts of his body". He didn't die until they finally cut off his head.
Didn't know that. Learned sth new lol



;1309598']If Blackbeard has shown all his powers I think luffy could beat him right now... he beat Ace just by punching him and punches don't affect luffy unless they are as strong as Garp's, but I'm not sure wether he has already shown everythingI thought Garp used haki when he punched Luffy? Well, havent got any facts there.
BB's fruit is way superior than Haki. Otherwise his logia fruit with a all time physical body is meaningless.

Rotten The Wizard
April 19, 2009, 10:54 AM
BB's fruit is way superior than Haki. Otherwise his logia fruit with a all time physical body is meaningless.

lol
Thats a false claim. Even though we dont even know that much about haki yet. But from where I'm sitting Haki is a better weapon.

BB's fruit is better for mass destruction. When it comes down to fights Haki is clearly a better weapon, with BB's fruit its like going after a musquito with a bazooka

BlackHair
April 19, 2009, 11:11 AM
Well BB's fruit can cancel DF completely. While haki can only neutralize intangibility (logia phyiscal body, para physical body (rubber etc)). On both cases u have to touch the opponent.

About haki's next movement prediction, well it will only help fighting equal or weaker opponents, but not superior. Though even with prediction, it won't help fighting some1 who can use gravity.

Anyway, beside those groupings (kings haki etc), I think we already have good a clear picture of haki. Correct me if Im wrong here. I think the purpose of haki is a) to fight df user as a non df user and b) tu burst ur own strengths.

kkck
April 19, 2009, 08:14 PM
The movement prediction ability haki apparently gives you (sharingan knockoff anyone?) would probably be cancelled when you fight someone with haki or with a similar prediction ability though. For instance I doubt the recent WB vs Shanks incident carried on infinitely because WB and shanks were able to predict what the other was gonna do....

Rotten The Wizard
April 19, 2009, 10:11 PM
and Given the fact that BB's DF is just that a DF. Meaning put seastone handcuffs on him and he's your bitch,or push him overboard, or use seastone weapons

And going by observation on Rayleigh, Haki users can break out of those(seastone handcuffs), that's why Kizaru was bitching and moaning about Rayleigh intervening

RichardMNixon
April 19, 2009, 10:51 PM
(sharingan knockoff anyone?)

Which would then just have been a mantra knockoff. It's hardly a unique enough power to claim it was stolen anyhow.

I don't think we know enough about haki or the yami yami no mi to objectively compare them. I would hope that the DF can do something haki can't though, otherwise it would be pretty lame.

Gecko Moria
April 20, 2009, 02:46 AM
and Given the fact that BB's DF is just that a DF. Meaning put seastone handcuffs on him and he's your bitch,or push him overboard, or use seastone weapons

And going by observation on Rayleigh, Haki users can break out of those(seastone handcuffs), that's why Kizaru was bitching and moaning about Rayleigh intervening

Blackbeard would not be completely useless without his DF powers. You're forgetting about his tremendous strength. He might even be able to break out of the seastone handcuffs. And although seastone weapons may nullify his DF abilities, we know that he is still experienced in melee combat (from his battle with Shanks). Blackbeard doesn't really use his DF powers for defence (one of the reasons being he can't let attacks pass through him) and because he has superhuman strength, seastone weapons are not that great of a deal to him. However, if you can puss him into the sea, he is finished (his DF power does not allow him the power of flight, unlike many other logias).



I don't think we know enough about haki or the yami yami no mi to objectively compare them. I would hope that the DF can do something haki can't though, otherwise it would be pretty lame.

The Yami Yami No Mi can already do things Hakican not do. For example, the ability to draw things in, control gravity etc.

BlackHair
April 20, 2009, 07:39 AM
And going by observation on Rayleigh, Haki users can break out of those(seastone handcuffs), that's why Kizaru was bitching and moaning about Rayleigh interveningKiz was bitching coz Ray stepped in while he was dealing with the SHs. and what do u mean by handcuffed, Ray etc? Didn't get that part.

Yes DF has a common weakness, but I thought we were comparing haki with the darkness fruit. Anyway I still think BB's fruit is better than haki, since gravity is such a huge weapon.


Blackbeard would not be completely useless without his DF powers. You're forgetting about his tremendous strength. He might even be able to break out of the seastone handcuffs. [..]
Apart from nullifying the DF ability, it also draws away the human strengths. For example, as Luffy touched the cage in Rainbase, Alabasta he couldn't even stand. So I don't think BB could fight back. But on the other hand, Robin was able to walk with her handcuffs, so Im not sure on this lol

Just noticed we are stepping into "haki" discussion.

Phase
April 20, 2009, 09:50 AM
and Given the fact that BB's DF is just that a DF. Meaning put seastone handcuffs on him and he's your bitch,or push him overboard, or use seastone weapons

And going by observation on Rayleigh, Haki users can break out of those(seastone handcuffs), that's why Kizaru was bitching and moaning about Rayleigh intervening

Even if this is true (and I have no idea what makes you think that it is), I get the impression that Rayleigh isn't a DF user himself. I could be wrong, but that's the impression that I get since he wasn't doing anything abnormal against Kizaru. It's not like he was in a position to be holding back.

There's a point to what I just said actually. Seastone WEAKENS people with DF powers. Therefore, someone without DF powers to begin with would be much more capable of breaking themselves free than someone with DF powers. Since BB has DF powers, I would assume that seastone handcuffs would weaken him to the point where he'd be unable to break free (assuming he'd even be able to in the first place).

Dice
April 20, 2009, 02:41 PM
I'm really curious if there is a limit of the things he can suck in (if there is one it's still quite much he can suck in). Just imagine him sucking in sea water en masse.

And while he won't be able to do a thing if you throw him into the sea he' still quite strong in a seafight since he can easily rip a ship apart.

Gecko Moria
April 20, 2009, 06:41 PM
I'm really curious if there is a limit of the things he can suck in (if there is one it's still quite much he can suck in). Just imagine him sucking in sea water en masse.

And while he won't be able to do a thing if you throw him into the sea he' still quite strong in a seafight since he can easily rip a ship apart.

Hew can easily rip a ship apart but he still needs something to stand on afterwards (otherwise he'll drown since he can't swim).

As to the limit of things he can suck in, I don't think there is any. Black holes absorb everything, even light and since his power is parallel to that of a black hole the reasoning should be the same.

However, his power to draw things in can be exploited to his opponenets advantage. For example, here: http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/441/14/. Ace fired his fire lances at Blackbeard and he was forced to shut off his power to draw things in by closing his hand. Even so, he still wasn't fast enough to dodge the attack.

bittman
April 20, 2009, 07:03 PM
Well I'm a bit of a die-hard Blackbeard fan, so anything you hear from me will just be promoting him as the final boss, etc.

Though like all topics that talk about a character's strength when we really have not seen the true extent of it, this will all be 90% hypothetical.

But yeah, any point I have I said in the "Who is the final villain?" topic with my essay post. Too lazy to pull up a link atm =P

Gecko Moria
April 23, 2009, 05:44 AM
Well I'm a bit of a die-hard Blackbeard fan, so anything you hear from me will just be promoting him as the final boss, etc.

Though like all topics that talk about a character's strength when we really have not seen the true extent of it, this will all be 90% hypothetical.

But yeah, any point I have I said in the "Who is the final villain?" topic with my essay post. Too lazy to pull up a link atm =P

There's nothing wrong with a bit of sensible hypothesizing, it promotes discussion. And I think Blackbeard will be the last opponent as well.

A new discussion point: What is your opinion of the role Blackbeard is going to play in this up-coming war? Other than the obvious: "he's going to fight in it" :s

ofir271
April 23, 2009, 08:14 AM
BB gravity power is the strongest in OP.nothing can beat it bassicly - thats his nature.
he has his agenda dreams and great crew as well.this make him the perfect oponent to luffy
he will probably get stronger in the new world while beating some of the supernovas before meeting luffy for a/the big battle.

with all that he can be defeated by a strong fast fighter that dosnt rely on DF powers like zoro or hawk, but that will be like avoiding the battle agaist his DF powers and its not oda/luffy style.

my guess is that,when the battle come,luffy will come to him face to face and even at the face of that nothing his life force will and hacki would not be touched,and bb power will be useless.

beastboy
April 23, 2009, 06:00 PM
Well, smoker>>> BB
BB use gravity on smoker
smoker stays in the hand of BB with out is DF.
By doing this BB touches the kairoseki sword
smoker is smoke again and bit BB in the head, and son't take the sword of is head.
BB enneable to move would be a deth man.

HAHAHAH
just a joke but is plausble

bittman
April 28, 2009, 08:22 PM
Beastboy, not to rain on your parade, but everything is subject to gravity. A natural Black Hole is able to even suck in light, and smoke is far more substantial than light.

So no, not plausible.

Dice
April 29, 2009, 04:34 AM
Just now there came another idea into my mind. Since BB's logia is so special and has the power of the devil itself (BB said something like that) couldn't it be possible that seastone doesn't effect this fruit. Then there were no possible way to keep him imprisoned aslong as he is alive. This could be another reason why he choose this fruit.
But that's just a crazy idea without any real base^^

Lord Rayleigh
April 29, 2009, 08:33 AM
Beastboy, not to rain on your parade, but everything is subject to gravity. A natural Black Hole is able to even suck in light, and smoke is far more substantial than light.

So no, not plausible.
I think you did not understand what he meant. His plan is linked to the fact Smoker has a kairouseki sword. He supposed that Smoker would be attracted to BB because of his gravity power and then use his kairouseki sword to stop BB's power even if it stops his ones too : indeed as the BB's DF already prevent him from using his DF, he should prevent both of them to use their DF powers with the karouseki sword.
By this strategy, he would beat him with the sword like if it was a non DF users'fight.
Theorically, it works.

beastboy
April 29, 2009, 09:21 AM
@bittman
If he could suck light couldn't he suck fire Oo.
BB doesn't control gravity it self.
If he could do that he would just increase de gravity until ace die, simple as that.
And is Black Hole isn't quick to do and he as to release evrithing before use is DF, it sounds like a defence break.
And don't you really think that he can use BH for defence, cause if he could he would use it in the batle with ace.
You're overstimating BB a lot.

edit: lorde rayleigh said what I was trying to say in my previous post!


ps: BB sucks a lot (he sucked an entire village)

braindamage351
April 30, 2009, 02:45 PM
Blackbeard is close to invincible.

1. If you use a weapon, he sucks the weapon away
2. If you use a devil fruit power, he sucks the DF power away
3. If you use martial arts, you have to fight a giant superhumanly strong haki-using brawler that could scar a yonkou, all with your feet off the ground

The only way to beat Blackbeard is if you can outbrawl him. And seeing as how everyone uses DF and weapons, only Luffy will be able to manage that.

Dalyup!
April 30, 2009, 03:55 PM
It doesn't mention anywhere that Blackbeard has haki nor has it even been implied, I don't think. If he did have haki what would be the point of him getting a DF that nullifies other DFs when haki already does that?

Also, Blackbeard's awesome. I hope he kills Whitebeard in the upcoming battle.

bittman
May 04, 2009, 11:09 PM
@ Dalyup: Because Haki is not a solution to the problem, it's just a tool. A carpenter's favourite tool may be a circular saw, but he's not going to throw away his hammer and nails. A Boxer may have an outstanding left hook, but he's not going to only throw left hooks.

But yeah, Blackbeard having haki is just a hypothesis, he may not.

@ beastboy: well, perhaps his power will grow? Luffy didn't exactly start at Gear 2, but I digress because I've never seen a villain grow (because we've never seen Luffy beat a villain that's been built up beyond their introductory arc yet).

But yeah, I probably overestimated Blackbeard a little, but the general point is unless what he sucks in actually damages him (in which case he just got hit by 50 tons of broken village), he should be able to suck anything, without exception.

That said, I still wonder what he did with Ace's spirit bomb...

beastboy
May 06, 2009, 02:58 PM
Well villains never grow cause they're beaten in max 2 weeks, but BB had enough time to do it, and what we see from is power was a little few of the real gravity.
If he could control gravity he would just destroy the universe with a finger, and he would be able to increase the mass of the things (>mass=>>gravity, no mass no gravity, no higger mass no higger gravity) so he could use is power as miss valentine ^^!


If he can do all that and he just doesn't needed he is awessom other wise miss valentine can actually kill him, no mass no gravity^^)

BlackHair
May 28, 2009, 12:47 PM
Regarding the great endless forbidden WB vs BB discussions. I wanted to roll back that topic, since I just recently noticed sth, which I believe is the decisive argument. I seriously wish to have noticed that sooner xD.

Anyway, Whitebeard (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/234/12-13/) and Bleackbeard (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/234/18-19/) were introduced in chapter 234 (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/234/01/), with WB labelled as the strongest man. At that time he was the strongest simply coz of that infobox saying he is. Now we all expect BB to be the the final villain, thus he must become at some point stronger than WB.

As he was introduced in that chapter, he already had his devil fruit yet he wasn't labelled as the strongest. My conclusion is that he just recently ate the darkness fruit, hence he hasn't mastered it completely. Therefore he had still his way to go.

I have always supported the idea that Oda is letting his antagonist growing, just like Luffy the protagonist. Since we don't see him fighting like the protagonist, we can't really tell if he got stronger or not. But there are small changes in his appearances over the different arcs.

At Jaya (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/234/18-19/) -> at Banaro Island (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/434/19/) -> at Impel Down (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/542/04-05/). As u can see on BB, there is a change in his clothes over the arcs. I believe these are defining his growth in fighting power. Since other like Kuma, Flamingo, WB, Shanks etc didn't had any changes. I believe this way Oda is displaying the development in his fighting power.

Now considering this I believe since now it came to the great war, WB and BB are equal or BB slightly weaker. After the war, he will be stronger. So that said, it's not like WB's infobox was a lie. It was just telling the present fact, not the future.


Anyway, Im the only one seeing the change of clothes as kind of sign of his grow in battle power? btw refrained from starting a new thread, since it is an old topic. Just wanted to post it xD

Sachsenhesse
May 28, 2009, 01:10 PM
Jeah everytime we saw him, he became more "pirate". I personally think that Oda wants to show on Blackbeard how pirates really were, on the other side luffy represents the romance in pirateering. He loves adventure and dont cares about the whole word, BB does really care about the world and his position, also he goes straight without leting things in his way.

beastboy
May 28, 2009, 01:45 PM
hahahahhahahahahahaahahahhahahahaahahahahahhahahhahahhhhahhahhahhahahhahahhahahhahhahahhahha

sorry for the hahahah's but you make me laugh..
Did BB cut the sky when joking with ace... yes cause WB wasn't serious, BB would need to crack ace's neck with one finger to be stronger than a man that cuts the sky cam'on man, you're joking right, since I think that WB wasn't using haki, and that he would do an half of the damages on the sky I think that he wouldn't move if BB attacks with kuro uzo.. and if ACE had time to attack, WB would cut him in an half..

BlackHair
May 28, 2009, 02:16 PM
I put BB equal to WB or a bit weaker. Only after his victory over WB, I would call him stronger!
The clash of Shanks and WB cut the sky in half. It's not like WB did all alone. Even if, it has no meaning.
Damage shown on material things wouldn't necessarily be the same on character
Some examples:
Luff's Gear 3 was able to crack up steel (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/403/19/), yet Lucci took one of those fists directly and survived (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/421/18-19/).
Ace's hiken took out a few ships (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/159/18-19/), yet BB survived (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/440/16/) that.
Kizaru's laser took out a mangrove (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/507/16/) and with the same laser Kuma melted on TB steel (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/485/09/), yet Zoro took one of those and survived (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/511/15/).

Enel was able to destroy a island which Luffy still can't. Yet he beat him down.

beastboy
May 28, 2009, 02:54 PM
well lucci has something called TEKKAI, that makes is skin stronger than steel.
If lucci can make a skin stronger than steel, BB should be able to create one stronger than wood.
And again, if lucci and kaku can, why zoro can't, he doesn't call it tekkai, but he is a lot faster, in this week ep he was running at the same speed as luffy in gear 2, and he doesn't sayed soru...
4- he could destroy an Island with the help of a gigantic gold made ship, with some crazy things, and yet he took a lot of time to charge it up, and the island don't end up destroyed( at least not until the white sea)



At Jaya -> at Banaro Island -> at Impel Down. As u can see on BB, there is a change in his clothes over the arcs. I believe these are defining his growth in fighting power. Since other like Kuma, Flamingo, WB, Shanks etc didn't had any changes. I believe this way Oda is displaying the development in his fighting power.

OOMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMGGGGGGG

Damage lines is plausible (not to much but is plausible) but changing cloths makes you stronger is hust stuuuuupppiiiiiiiid, shanks didn't changed is clothes but in an SBS ODA ANSWERED that he is stronger than 10 years before, and the same for sanji, that is always with the same clothes exept in special events (maybe the tie changes).

Lord Rayleigh
May 28, 2009, 02:57 PM
At Jaya (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/234/18-19/) -> at Banaro Island (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/434/19/) -> at Impel Down (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/542/04-05/). As u can see on BB, there is a change in his clothes over the arcs. I believe these are defining his growth in fighting power. Since other like Kuma, Flamingo, WB, Shanks etc didn't had any changes. I believe this way Oda is displaying the development in his fighting power.
Anyway, Im the only one seeing the change of clothes as kind of sign of his grow in battle power? btw refrained from starting a new thread, since it is an old topic. Just wanted to post it xD
I agree that it is linked. If you notice some changes, you must have seen the most important one : BB have obtained the two-horned hat at the Shichibukai summit. But what is more interesting is that BB wears the two-hornet hat like Napoléon did : parallel to the shoulders instead of perpendicular.
Napoléon becomes general in the french republican army, then first consul on November 9, 1999 : after the coup d'état. The next step was to become Emperor on May 11, 1804.
Is it a parallel with BB that became pirate in the WB fleet and then Shichibukai ? What is the next step he talked about ?

beastboy
May 28, 2009, 03:01 PM
OH the hat thing I think is plausible, but changing closes makes you strong, I change clothes everyday, am I stronger than luffy......

Razh
May 28, 2009, 03:05 PM
OH the hat thing I think is plausible, but changing closes makes you strong, I change clothes everyday, am I stronger than luffy......

Oh please, cut the crap. He meant to say that Oda was showing Blackbeard's growth with the changes of his outfit.

Personally, I don't think Blackbeard is any stronger now than he was when he was fighting Ace. Maybe a little. There hasn't really been that much time.

JC123
May 28, 2009, 03:06 PM
well lucci has something called TEKKAI, that makes is skin stronger than steel.
If lucci can make a skin stronger than steel, BB should be able to create one stronger than wood
Lucci was a government agent. Why in the world would BB have something to be similar to Rokushiki just for the sake of argument? He's a brawler. He's BIG! More than likely, he can take a LOT of punishment without any interference from Marines. He has no structure.

Regarding changing clothes. The SHs HAVE changed clothes. Usopp was bandaged for the longest because of his fight with Mr. 4. They had winter clothes and summer clothes. Regardless, they have gotten stronger.


OOMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMGGGGGGG

Damage lines is plausible (not to much but is plausible) but changing cloths makes you stronger is hust stuuuuupppiiiiiiiid, shanks didn't changed is clothes but in an SBS ODA ANSWERED that he is stronger than 10 years before, and the same for sanji, that is always with the same clothes exept in special events (maybe the tie changes).
We haven't seen BB but he looks a helluva lot more regal than he did before. Something changed. His ability to control his power? His ability to take damage? I unno but damn if that wasn't a good way to show that something IS different with him.

Personal note:

Long elongated words as well as baseless arguments do tend to annoy people. Careful that someone not retaliate by taking them the wrong way. ;)

beastboy
May 28, 2009, 03:11 PM
oh so robin or nami are stronger than BB cause they changed clothes more times.......
[hr]
Ok I asked 6 peoples to read BlackHair post and the 6 said IS HE STUPID OR WHAT
and did not use baseless arguments BlackHair did, were ae the bases to tell that chars grow up when they change clothes.

JC123
May 28, 2009, 03:17 PM
Nami got better with the climatact. Robin is already pretty strong. And she's an archaeologist for goodness sakes. She's not really interested in fighting overtly.

Not defending the fact that with the time frame BB could have gotten stronger. You're kinda just saying he's dumb for noticing a difference. But now this argument's getting to "No he isn't" "Yes he IS" territory.

Look, believe that he's not or is stronger. His clothes have changed marking a difference in something regarding BB and his character. It's not just the clothes. He looked like a henchman in Jaya. He looked like a boss in Janaro. Now, he looks like the captain of his own ship. Whether that signifies a change in his personality or something is up to Oda to decide. I just thought it was a good post showing his reasoning.

Onomatopoeia
May 28, 2009, 03:31 PM
@Blackhair: Your argument is interesting but at the same time their isn't anyway to back it up. At the same time the premise of your argument is guaranteed to be right though. 

Because quite simply BB will get stronger over time that's a given. His power will only increase. And as time goes by he'll also get new clothes.

At the same time that doesn't guarantee that the clothes are some sort of marker since after all they're are plenty of reasons to explain why someone would put on new clothes.

Simply put as time goes on he'll get new clothes and as time goes on he'll also steadily get stronger. But to state they're related based on this is a fallacy of some sort(Post Hoc maybe?).

After all even Oda draws people with new clothing if they are important enough or (all the SH's, Shanks, BB, heck even Hachi)

His grandeur has changed with his clothes which possibly shows his ascent to the Shichi but their isn't a gurantee that a relation exists between power.

Lord Rayleigh
May 28, 2009, 03:34 PM
Oh please, cut the crap. He meant to say that Oda was showing Blackbeard's growth with the changes of his outfit.

Personally, I don't think Blackbeard is any stronger now than he was when he was fighting Ace. Maybe a little. There hasn't really been that much time.

Anyway, it shows that BB is more powerful - not necessarily stronger in terms of fighting skills - but it is an indicator of his growth in the OP universe. Moreover, the development of the appearance amounts to the recognition of someone's power. BB has now being recognized at the strenght of a Shichibukai. And it is for me a kind of upgrade that must be recognized.
PS : for Razh, between Ace's defeat and the Shichibukai summit (the time for the change of the appearance), I would think of an interval of 3 weeks. An important time in the manga.
PS2 : You can see these kinds of change too as important. BB saw a new Luffy in the Chapter 444 with a development of ambition/strenght. I think the more can be said about BB that is now leading his second step in his plan.

Razh
May 28, 2009, 03:37 PM
I always thought of Blackbeard's change of attire as a sort of a countdown to the moment when he will stop pretending and announce his real goal to everyone.

That said, I don't think his attire is going to change that much any more. General appearance, I mean.

braindamage351
May 28, 2009, 03:42 PM
Blackbeard got a "pirate king" uniform once he joined the shichibukai. That's the only difference. His strength doesn't seem to be changing. I have to admit that he's definitely more limited than I thought, he seems to have an almost pathological inability to avoid attacks the first time he sees them. He's pretty specialized to fight logias.



well lucci has something called TEKKAI, that makes is skin stronger than steel.
If lucci can make a skin stronger than steel, BB should be able to create one stronger than wood

The latest chapter makes it clear more than anything that we were all seriously underestimating Luffy and Lucci's speed and hand-to-hand skill relative to the rest of the world. The main difference seems to be destructive power, special abilities, and haki. In terms of raw speed and skill, those two may be among the best in the world. I don't expect Blackbeard to be able to match CP9's techniques at all.

beastboy
May 28, 2009, 04:39 PM
yeah, but wood isn't as hard as steel, I think that dstro boats with fire is easy, just loock at merry he went down in a metter of minutes, and he wasn't break in an half.
Anyway I would say thanks to Onomatopeia but I don't see any button .

bittman
May 28, 2009, 06:14 PM
Firstly, way to flame Blackhair beastboy. Either you're immature, or immature with all that. Think about what you post before you post.

Blackhair has a point, obviously he didn't get it across to you that well.

Like Razh said (and I thanked him for), I also believe Blackbeard's evolution of appearance is leading up to him building himself up as a major threat. When we first saw him, that dirty stubble could hardly be called a beard, I can grow something more in 2 weeks. Yet recently we have a beard and his clothing is becoming steadily more in the image of a proper pirate.

A pirate that steals and cheats, but believes in dreams and enjoys power. That is the image Blackbeard is becoming, much more than any other pirate we've seen.

Image is everything in manga, if someone's image changes there is usually a reason. For instance, Moria is now sporting head bandages 24/7, you think Oda just said one day "you know what...bandages!" and added them? In the same way, Oda didn't just say "oh a tricorne! Let's add that."

BlackHair
May 28, 2009, 07:24 PM
After reading all ur posts it seemed my view was just narrowed and not big enough for the whole picture.
JC123 summarized it perfectly, far better than I ever could:

His clothes have changed marking a difference in something regarding BB and his character. It's not just the clothes. He looked like a henchman in Jaya. He looked like a boss in Janaro. Now, he looks like the captain of his own ship. All in all I believe the new outfits marks the development of his character. Such as fighting power, closing in to his goal etc. That's at least my view, but just as Ono stated without any solid proofs.

Furthermore I believe it is not only limited to outfits. Extern changes, such as wounds, scars etc are also marking development or any kind of change. For example Smokers newly gained scar. But Actually I wasn't including every character in the one piece world, just those who have plot importance. While the SHs as the protagonists might be a different case. Since they have a daily appearance.

Anyway my whole post was actually only to explain the WB vs BB fight. That WB's title, the strongest man is valid, until there is a power-up of any character shown. Basically a addition to my past BB vs WB posts. I never read his title as an title given by the one piece world, but rather as a fact given by Oda himself. Since so far there wasn't any infoboxes containing void information.

@beastboy: Just stop comparing wood with steel for gods sake. Are u unable to understand how retarded that is? Tekkai hardens ur body like steel (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/348/05/), it's not that they become steel. Which is absurd for every known reason. If Lucci is hit with tear gas (Magallan), would it have any effects on him? Yes it would. Now would it have any on steel? Clearly not. Same with fire (Ace) and other elements.

Also about Shanks, he changed his trousers lol. Pre (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/1/46/) -> After (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/434/06/). In his case it may define: becoming Yonko, loosing arm etc.

Anyway, thx all (yes all) for reading my post and giving even thoughts to it.

zerocooldx
May 29, 2009, 11:40 AM
Blackbeard is every Devil Fruit users Kryptonite. His Darkness power pretty much just "sucks" things in, which obviously includes Devil Fruit powers. But if the opponent is not a Devil Fruit user then Backbeard is screwed. I'm not saying that an "aveage" person could beat him but if a failry strong non fruit user comes along he could take down Blackbeard. But on the other hand Blackbeard can render almost any Devil Fruit using opponent powerless for a certain amount of time. And apparently he seems to have good knowledge of Haki, now whether that means he himself can use it is still up in the air. But he can really be a big wildcard in the entire series.

braindamage351
May 29, 2009, 01:57 PM
The problem is, Blackbeard is specialized to beat admirals, when he should be specialized to beat the yonkou. It doesn't make sense right now.

BlackHair
May 29, 2009, 02:42 PM
Blackbeard is every Devil Fruit users Kryptonite.

I wouldn't describe his darkness fruit as kryptonite. Kryptonite weakens you to that extent that you are unable to move and depending on how long you are exposed to it, you might even die. If there would be a Kryptonite in the series, then it is seastone.

Also I wouldn't say every devil fruit, but rather mostly logia. Since they are not really used to get hit, so they can be seen as more "fragile". Zoan and Paramerca are used to get hit, so depending on their ability it might not have such an huge advantage.


The problem is, Blackbeard is specialized to beat admirals, when he should be specialized to beat the yonkou. It doesn't make sense right now. Admirals are on a different level than ordinary logia (Enel, Croco, Ace). If u read Kizaru vs Rayleigh, u know what Im talking about. Since those guys are used to fight strong pirate with the ability to use haki. Thus they have experiences to get hit physically.

Anyway he isn't specialized to fight anyone. He is just insanely strong. The Op world is filled with different df ability users, there is no such df power which is superior to everyone. For example Kuma and Enel, they are able to teleport. Thus they could easily tp behind his back to avoid Vortex.. just a example of what Im talking about.

zerocooldx
May 30, 2009, 02:09 AM
Blackbeard is very unique, both power and personality wise. And he looks as if he will play a major role in the story.

Underpowered
May 31, 2009, 06:38 AM
About BBs weakness (dunno if it has been mentioned)...
Its described that he cant let attacks pass through him, but I think thats not very exact. I think he just can't disintegrate his body, but eventually absorb incoming attack with black holes.
This is a pretty baseless idea btw...

zerocooldx
May 31, 2009, 07:10 AM
About BBs weakness (dunno if it has been mentioned)...
Its described that he cant let attacks pass through him, but I think thats not very exact. I think he just can't disintegrate his body, but eventually absorb incoming attack with black holes.
This is a pretty baseless idea btw...

Bleackbeard is the only Logia that can be physically hurt through normal methods. Which is a sacrafice for him posessing the ability to temporarily disable Devil Fruit powers. So in the end it balances itself out.

Onomatopoeia
May 31, 2009, 11:26 AM
We all know BB doesn't take damage like a normal person, right?

In fact BB once stated that he takes more damage then he would normally because his powers suck everything up.

Well up until now I've always thought that the difference was minor but now I'm not so sure. Perhaps the multiplier for the amount of damage BB takes is actually quite high?

Lord Rayleigh
May 31, 2009, 02:11 PM
About BBs weakness (dunno if it has been mentioned)...
Its described that he cant let attacks pass through him, but I think thats not very exact. I think he just can't disintegrate his body, but eventually absorb incoming attack with black holes.
This is a pretty baseless idea btw...
He cannot let attacks pass through him, that is sure. Nevertheless, he can indeed avoid attacks by using his dark power. He just have to put his dark matter ahead.

zerocooldx
June 01, 2009, 01:23 PM
I wouldn't describe his darkness fruit as kryptonite. Kryptonite weakens you to that extent that you are unable to move and depending on how long you are exposed to it, you might even die. If there would be a Kryptonite in the series, then it is seastone.

I didn't really mean the Kryptonite remark to be taken literally. All i was saying is that Blackbeard takes away all of the Devil Fruit users strenghts/powers. And since Blackbeard's darkness "disables" a Devil Fruits users powers, then Zoan's should temporarily revert back to their normal form. Much like Luffy lost his rubber abilities for a short time when he encountered Blackbeards darkness.

wildgunz89
October 25, 2009, 11:16 PM
been reading this forum didnt know if anyone noticed that bb might of died because of magellans poison o.o does that mean magellan>bb>ace? not for aginst his strength just wanted to add fuel to the fire =)

bittman
October 26, 2009, 06:21 PM
Well yeah, Magellan > 99% of character's we've seen in One Piece so far. Even Whitebeard, who would undoubtedly smash Magellan into pieces, would be just as powerless if he was hit with the poison as every other human being. It's a bit of an absolute power really, though the true enemy in a battle against Magellan is time.

But this is not about Magellan...

I still put BB almost dying to Magellan down to two and a half things. Firstly, Magellan never used his final poison which is basically akin to instant death. Secondly, Blackbeard and crew underestimated Magellan's strength and were unable to react until it was too late. Secondly and a half (or alternatively), Blackbeard and crew allowed themselves to take the hit to have Magellan pass by whilst Shiryuu obtained an antidote thus giving them more free time to explore/search Impel Down.

I'd like to believe Magellan > BB because that means BB definitely has room to grow, however I really don't think we've seen the true strength of his hairy chest. Surely Shanks doesn't fear Blackbeard because he can punch hard enough to almost break the neck of a scrawny logia. And that scar didn't come from a punch...unless he's Wolverine in disguise...

RichardMNixon
October 27, 2009, 01:16 AM
As far as Magellan is concerned it would appear that Blackbeard's greatest power is that fate he's always on about.

Razh
October 27, 2009, 03:44 AM
Surely Shanks doesn't fear Blackbeard because he can punch hard enough to almost break the neck of a scrawny logia. And that scar didn't come from a punch...unless he's Wolverine in disguise...

He doesn't have to be Wolverine to scratch someone with his nails. That's probably the origin of Shanks' scar. Either that or a fork. Fork is stupid.

ZenoArmani
October 27, 2009, 06:47 AM
Characters with extremely strong offensive powers with longer reach than Magellan could probably take him, and Marco might be able to withstand his poisons. I'm not sure about how logia element forms would work.

Blackbeard has seemed pretty calculating thus far, so I can't see him being uninformed about Magellan, and he does have the maybe foremost poisons expert in the world in his crew, so they likely prepared themselves with heavy antidotes in advance, pretended to be defeated so Magellan wouldn't try other poisons than the ones he uses normally, and then took a lot of more antidotes and went on to do whatever they were in the prison to do, beyond getting Shiryuu.

If he wants to be the new Gold Rogers, then freeing all the prisoners at the bottom floor as really powerful new crew members would be a great start. (Was the required bounty for the final level ever stated? 200,000000+ Beri or even higher? Was the okama king/queen originally at the bottom before setting up the bar?)

Razh
October 27, 2009, 07:27 AM
Shiryuu gave them the antidotes. At least in the version that I read.

RichardMNixon
October 27, 2009, 10:08 AM
Blackbeard has seemed pretty calculating thus far, so I can't see him being uninformed about Magellan,

Calculating, yes, careful no. He's as reckless and lucky as Luffy, and he likes it that way. Also note that he thought Shiryuu was Magellan, so he couldn't have been too informed.

Poneglyph420
October 27, 2009, 01:10 PM
BB is powerful, powerful enough to beat Ace...who I don't consider a a scrawny logia. If the only guy we can find who can stop him so far is Magellan... well well. No one up til now could have handled Magellan any better.

That being said his strength is like that of the other Shichibukai. He's not as much of a threat as a Yonkou or Admiral. BB is kind of the hidden factor..
He has kept himself secreted away and used stealth. BB is deserving of his given status, but by no means is a god among pirates or anything.....

beastboy
October 28, 2009, 07:52 PM
BB=Luffy IMO

And I think he taked Ace off.. cause in the moment of is defeat he used some really dirty trick.. like having the sniper shoot a kairoseki bullet!!
[hr]
Or he draw a kairoseki Fork (does you use to eat) to Ace.. while he was destrected with that huge ball!

Tengu24
October 29, 2009, 02:03 PM
Shanks stated that BB gave him that scar, and shanks wasnt holding back!... BB wasnt even using his DF..only that statement and getting away fine, easy ranks him in the top 10 strongest pirates in one piece

Razh
October 29, 2009, 02:32 PM
Shanks stated that BB gave him that scar, and shanks wasnt holding back!... BB wasnt even using his DF..only that statement and getting away fine, easy ranks him in the top 10 strongest pirates in one piece

I'm not saying Blackbeard is weak, but the scar that he gave to Shanks doesn't prove much. And it wasn't even much of a wound. A superficial scratch over the eye. It's easy to leave a scar in that area.

Look at how many opponents managed to wound Luffy hundreds of chapters before. Does that make that opponents equal to Luffy now? No.
Repeat, I'm not saying Blackbeard is weak, but I don't like the logic behind that last sentence. Something that happened 20 years ago is not a definite proof of someone's strength today.

chess4
October 29, 2009, 02:45 PM
shanks thinks that BB is enough of a threat to warn WB that he may come for his head one day. if shanks didnt think that BB could actually do it, then he wouldnt have warned him.

Lord Rayleigh
October 29, 2009, 02:48 PM
Shanks stated that BB gave him that scar, and shanks wasnt holding back!... BB wasnt even using his DF..only that statement and getting away fine, easy ranks him in the top 10 strongest pirates in one piece
Do not forget that the Shanks you talk about here was not a Yonkou (and thus not one of the 10 strongest pirates) as he got that scar before he met Luffy.
It happened probably when Shanks was a Gold Roger's nakama and thus an apprentice. It could be between Roger's execution and the meeting with Luffy but I don't think so.
To confirm that, we need to see the picture when he asked Buggy to become his nakama, that was just after Roger died : if he has a scar, it means he got it before Roger died and thus very likely before the crew disbanded.

RichardMNixon
October 29, 2009, 02:54 PM
His face is covered; perhaps intentionally? The way Akainu's face was hidden by his hat?

http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/434/10/

Lord Rayleigh
October 29, 2009, 02:58 PM
So, we cannot know if BB injured him when he was an apprentice or if he did when he was a pirate captain. The only thing that is sure is that it happened before he met Luffy (and thus before he came back to the GL for the second time and become a Yonkou).

RichardMNixon
October 29, 2009, 07:28 PM
We don't know that he wasn't a Yonkou when me met Luffy though. Do we know how many years between Shanks leaving and Luffy leaving? Was Shanks there after Ace left? If that's the case I think it'd be safe to assume he was already a Yonkou.

Razh
October 29, 2009, 07:36 PM
We don't know that he wasn't a Yonkou when me met Luffy though. Do we know how many years between Shanks leaving and Luffy leaving? Was Shanks there after Ace left? If that's the case I think it'd be safe to assume he was already a Yonkou.

Shanks and Luffy didn't meet again after he lost his hand. And I think I remember that Ace went 3 years before Luffy. As we know, Ace and Shanks met probably during the first year of Ace's adventure.

Poneglyph420
October 29, 2009, 09:54 PM
Yes BB Scarred Shanks the Yonkou, when he had two arms..
For sure BB is powerful, his weakness is his arogance.
For sure he will rise to be one of the biggest threats on the sea...

But BB is still establishing himself, we need to see his next move..

Lord Rayleigh
October 30, 2009, 06:13 PM
We don't know that he wasn't a Yonkou when me met Luffy though. Do we know how many years between Shanks leaving and Luffy leaving? Was Shanks there after Ace left? If that's the case I think it'd be safe to assume he was already a Yonkou.
Rayleigh said that Shanks and him met in the Shabondy Archipelago and that Shanks was making a new start (captain of his own crew) - the link (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/506/17/) - : that means he was not a Yonkou as he was said to start a new piracy. Besides, Shanks also said to Rayleigh he has met someone that reminds him Roger and he had lost his SH and his arm. So, he met Rayleigh there after he met Luffy, and thus he was not a Yonkou when he was at Fushia Town with Luffy.
And you also have an indication of time : there at least 10 years between Shanks leaving and Luffy leaving as Shanks met Rayleigh on Shabondy Archipelago about ten years ago according to the Dark King. And when Luffy met Shanks, Luffy did not know Ace yet : when he met Ace and Dadan, Luffy already had his scar.

Bugzee
October 31, 2009, 08:23 PM
BB is extremely powerful, the knowledge and experiences he picked up all that time under WB is important to his success right now with his intentions/goals!

I do believe he will soon become on a Yonkou level! Hes DF is just on another level, it truly suits him as well lol! BB also analyses and remembers his enemy's traits/developments as well!!! Like when he unexpectedly realised he underestimated Luffy's strength. E.g. in Impel Down!

Poneglyph420
October 31, 2009, 11:16 PM
Sure he seems to have gained a lot of strength while on WB's crew. And prob. got an insane amount of info too. But BB seems to really depend on fate, which is romantic but risky... Like in Impel Down when Magellan owned the BB crew.

But he's overconfident I bet Shanks could own BB.
It will take him time to be Yonkou level..

I'm hoping he won't show up for some time..

Franckie
October 31, 2009, 11:29 PM
There're still people who don't think BB isn't top-tier? He has some of the best feats in the manga. He became a Shichibukai with a 0 bounty (they're suppose to scare pirates you know), outfought a Yonkou, defeated 2 of WB's Commandeers, and ate a DF of the "strongest" type, yet unique even amongst them. He's also the leading candidate for final villain, which places him at the very top in terms of powerscaling. Sure, Magellan one-shotted him, but who else in the manga could survive such an overpowered technique? The only people who could survive would be logias such as Smoker and Enel, and they're nowhere near the top of the food chain.

Poneglyph420
November 01, 2009, 12:46 AM
No doubt BB is one of the ten deadliest pirates alive and will soon be aiming for WB's head most likely....
And I do think BB will be a major enemy, perhaps the last on the road to Raftel..
He does have the nastiest DF yet and defeated 2 of WB's commanders.
He Scarred Shank's eye, if he had a missing eye then I'd be scared...

Of course he's powerful, but due to that he needs other weakness' like his overconfidence to balance him.

He needs time to assemble a full crew find a suitable ship and take the steps needed to take anyone but WB right now. If he were to do so now i'd be surprised. But no doubt he has the power. I'm still confident however of any of the Yonkou Shanks could best handle BB. IF he were to come for WB in his current state yeah it would be bad for WB. Bad as in dead.

otto345
January 06, 2010, 01:15 AM
Everybody is assuming BB will be a yonkou... he needs to prove himself... he is still unknown though he was a WB crewmate, he doesn't have a name yet probably defeating a yonkou will earn him one though.
Its funny but didn't shanks who is a Yonkou get his scars from blackbeard and that was before blackbeard got his Yami Yami no Mi devil fruit. Blackbeard is already Yonkou level. Mark my words he will be the final enemy luffy has to defeat for him to become the pirate king.

Rosebullet Teacher
January 06, 2010, 06:58 AM
Jus before he murked Ace Blackbeard pretty much said hes got his rise planned, now you might say he was just referring to catching Luffy for the Shichibukai title but i dont think so i cant wait to see his hairy chested self again this cat is gonna bleed men
FuS

iKeno
January 06, 2010, 07:00 AM
Its funny but didn't shanks who is a Yonkou get his scars from blackbeard and that was before blackbeard got his Yami Yami no Mi devil fruit. Blackbeard is already Yonkou level. Mark my words he will be the final enemy luffy has to defeat for him to become the pirate king.
So you're saying Blackbeard is as strong as Whitebeard, Shanks, Kaidou and the other one? I highly doubt that.
If he was already Yonkou level + his devil fruit don't you think he would of already made his move into the new world and not 'plan' his way to the becoming the pirate king? Blackbeard gave Shanks the scar like what over 10 years ago? You would assume Shanks would have gotten a hell of a lot powerful than that.
He doesn't have much of a crew, it took him a while to defeat ace, he was hit by luffy and if you're saying he is yonkou level then he should have evaded it even if he wasn't expecting it.
My conclusion is that he's around Luffy's power level, maybe even a little stronger.

otto345
January 06, 2010, 07:54 AM
So you're saying Blackbeard is as strong as Whitebeard, Shanks, Kaidou and the other one? I highly doubt that.
If he was already Yonkou level + his devil fruit don't you think he would of already made his move into the new world and not 'plan' his way to the becoming the pirate king? Blackbeard gave Shanks the scar like what over 10 years ago? You would assume Shanks would have gotten a hell of a lot powerful than that.
He doesn't have much of a crew, it took him a while to defeat ace, he was hit by luffy and if you're saying he is yonkou level then he should have evaded it even if he wasn't expecting it.
My conclusion is that he's around Luffy's power level, maybe even a little stronger.

IM pretty sure the Yonkou are not strong just because of the person leading them, they are strong because of the crew they have. Even Shanks told Whitebeard to be wary of him, why would he go to Whitebeard personally and tell him that Ace should not fight Blackbeard, obviously Shanks knew Blackbeard was a threat. Blackbeard was only waiting for the right time to make his move. And honestly Blackbeard is luffy's level come on , seriously if it wasn't for Jimbei who stopped luffy, luffy would have been murdered.

frontaLobotomy
January 06, 2010, 10:49 AM
Blackbeard is probably on a par with the Yonkou right now, in terms of strength and experience. He shouldn't be compared with rookies so often, as he's been a Pirate for a long time, and has managed to scar one of the most powerful characters revealed in the series. Not just anywhere either, but over his eye for all to see.

chess4
January 06, 2010, 12:21 PM
Blackbeard is probably on a par with the Yonkou right now, in terms of strength and experience. He shouldn't be compared with rookies so often, as he's been a Pirate for a long time, and has managed to scar one of the most powerful characters revealed in the series. Not just anywhere either, but over his eye for all to see.

yes blackbeard is hella strong, but the the reason have their title(well at least the 2 we have seen) is not only because of their individual strength, but the crews they have. if the Blackbeard pirates were to face the red hairs or the WB pirates they would get crushed, if just by the sheer number alone, and if im correct BB hasnt made any allies.

RichardMNixon
January 06, 2010, 12:48 PM
yes blackbeard is hella strong, but the the reason have their title(well at least the 2 we have seen) is not only because of their individual strength, but the crews they have.

I do feel the need to point this out because it's thrown around like gospel. Nowhere has Oda stated "Yeah, the Yonkou are cool and all but its really their great crew that makes them so strong." Somewhere along the line, fans just decided that Yonkou crews were what make the Yonkou so great. I agree that their crews are strong and to be feared, but to insist that their crew is the main component to their reputation (and chess4 didn't say it that strongly but others have) does a disservice to their individual power.

chess4
January 06, 2010, 01:07 PM
I do feel the need to point this out because it's thrown around like gospel. Nowhere has Oda stated "Yeah, the Yonkou are cool and all but its really their great crew that makes them so strong." Somewhere along the line, fans just decided that Yonkou crews were what make the Yonkou so great. I agree that their crews are strong and to be feared, but to insist that their crew is the main component to their reputation (and chess4 didn't say it that strongly but others have) does a disservice to their individual power.

lets take WB. WB is an animal and considered the strongest man alive, but what truly makes him fearsome is his crew, and his ability to have FORTY THREE pirate captains and their crews to follow him into battle angainst the WG for 1 young hot headed pirate.
yonkou means 4 kings and i my opinion is a king is only as strong as his kingdom. if a kingdom is strong therefore the king is. this is how i think it is with the yonkou.

Zatono
January 06, 2010, 03:31 PM
So I've got a question. Well, a few questions. If Blackbeard is supposedly on Yonkou level, where's that place Magellan? Hell, where's that place the admirals? Are the admirals stronger then the Yonkou then? Could BB beat Kizaru? What about Mihawk? Can BB now wreck Mihawk because of all this fan hyping?

Who cares if he scarred Shanks? We don't have the details of what was going on during that fight. For all we know, Shanks was battling the whole damn ship back then, and BB caught him off guard and managed to scrape his skin, barely.
[hr]


yonkou means 4 kings and i my opinion is a king is only as strong as his kingdom. if a kingdom is strong therefore the king is. this is how i think it is with the yonkou.

So, I guess that whole, WB at his prime was evenly matched with Gol D Roger is null and void, huh? Obviously it was the power of his gigantic crew that allowed him to be evenly matched. /sarcasm in case people can't tell.

chess4
January 06, 2010, 04:42 PM
So I've got a question. Well, a few questions. If Blackbeard is supposedly on Yonkou level, where's that place Magellan? Hell, where's that place the admirals? Are the admirals stronger then the Yonkou then? Could BB beat Kizaru? What about Mihawk? Can BB now wreck Mihawk because of all this fan hyping?

Who cares if he scarred Shanks? We don't have the details of what was going on during that fight. For all we know, Shanks was battling the whole damn ship back then, and BB caught him off guard and managed to scrape his skin, barely.
<hr noshade size="1">


So, I guess that whole, WB at his prime was evenly matched with Gol D Roger is null and void, huh? Obviously it was the power of his gigantic crew that allowed him to be evenly matched. /sarcasm in case people can't tell.
i never said he wasnt strong, im saying that the reason he is so feared is because of his crew and his pull in the new world.

also shiryuu said that the BB's were careless against magellan. also remember when mr 3 stopped magellans poison. that doesnt mean mr 3 is stronger than him. crocodile said u never know how powers will match up.

i think BB is one of the strongest people in one piece. he has the ability to stop logia users from using their power when he touches them. BB just got his fruit not to long ago(one piece time) and he still was a dawg.

you are absolutely right about he and shanks scuffle, but shanks wouldnt tell WB if he didnt think BB was a serious threat. he even said that BB mite come for WB's title. by shanks saying that, lets me know that BB is forreal.

either way, whatever BB is planing we will see before this arc is over

Poneglyph420
January 06, 2010, 09:47 PM
BB is indeed powerful enough to stand up against Ace, and at one point Shanks..sure.

At this point BB has experience and a nasty DF no doubt. Up til now he really hasn't fought a truly fair fight. He had the element of surprise on Ace and Magellan had it on him. By no means is he as strong as the two Yonkou we know of.. But top 10 for sure IMO. I hate him, but love to hate him....

Tengu24
January 07, 2010, 07:04 AM
I wonder if rayleigh can take BB down, what do you guys think? I think he can, I even think Rayleigh Really is on yonkou lvl in terms of strength..

vagabond87
January 07, 2010, 07:57 AM
I wonder if rayleigh can take BB down, what do you guys think? I think he can, I even think Rayleigh Really is on yonkou lvl in terms of strength..

Yes he can... Rayleight can handle Kizaru so Blackbeard is nothing compering to him. Magellan owned BB in seconds and he is weaker than Kizaru. Rayleight is eqal to Kizaru but dont have stamina like him.

Poneglyph420
January 07, 2010, 03:41 PM
Yes he can... Rayleight can handle Kizaru so Blackbeard is nothing compering to him. Magellan owned BB in seconds and he is weaker than Kizaru. Rayleight is eqal to Kizaru but dont have stamina like him.


I'd suspect that Rayleigh could handle BB as it stands.. but based on that fuzzy logic...

Kizaru was clearly more than Rayleigh could handle..at best he kept Kizaru at bay from the SH. He at no point seemed to be "beating" Kizaru..
Also BB is kinda overly bold and simple minded (like Luffy)..
When it comes to Magellan, He had the element of surprise on BB so as far as a fight to gauge power level by...doesn't seem to work IMO..

However based on the power of Rayleigh's haki seem in the auction house and his ability to rip off time bomb collars, his haki is no joke. Also up to know seems like he has no DF, making him even better suited to fighting someone with DF nullifying powers.

That would be a great fight.

Black Lagoon
January 07, 2010, 04:01 PM
Yes he can... Rayleight can handle Kizaru so Blackbeard is nothing compering to him. Magellan owned BB in seconds and he is weaker than Kizaru. Rayleight is eqal to Kizaru but dont have stamina like him.

BlackBeard was owned by Magellan because his stupid personality underestimated Magellan.

Foxdie
January 08, 2010, 04:30 PM
BlackBeard was owned by Magellan because his stupid personality underestimated Magellan.

Exactly .. I'm with you in this ..
I think BB will become the strongest man after WB's death ..

- He is the one who killed (4th captain of WB's crew) without a DF even.
- He is the one who won in front of Shanks & lift him with a Scar without a DF 10 years ago (or sometime before that .. I don't remember).
- He is the one who won in front of Ace (Oda didn't drew the full fight between them).

In my opinion, his strength depends on 3 things ..
1- His DF ability.
2- His plans, & all you know that he always talk about them.
3- I think BB has the Houshoku Haki (the Royal Haki) or the Haki ability in general & he is a good user for it because how he can fight Shanks & kill Thatchi (4th captain) without it?! :oh
O0

LeKuaSimi
January 09, 2010, 06:16 AM
talking about shitguy, he is only immune to his own poison due to his df right? If BB touches him, he would get poisoned. And the longer BB holds him, the more damage he will take.

Another thing to note is that Shiryyu, considered to be equal to Magellan, became BB's subordinate.

Razh
January 09, 2010, 12:33 PM
talking about shitguy, he is only immune to his own poison due to his df right? If BB touches him, he would get poisoned. And the longer BB holds him, the more damage he will take.

Another thing to note is that Shiryyu, considered to be equal to Magellan, became BB's subordinate.

Magellan obviously isn't immune to his poison, just developed a high resistance. If he were immune he wouldn't be spending most of his life in the toilet.
Also, Blackbeard would have to be immune to poison in order to pull out that trick of yours since he would receive more and more poison as long as he held Magellan. He would just negate Magellan's ability to use poison, not the poison that is already out.

I fail to see your point about Shiryuu. Zoro is following Luffy and there isn't that much difference between them. I also can't imagine how Shiryuu would fare better than anyone else against Magellan. He would probably run rather than fight him.

Magellan is constantly soaked with poison when he fights. Anyone who touches him just shortens the battle and time starts working for Magellan. And there are also ranged attacks like hydras, balls and mist. Let's not forget the corroding poison either. Blackbeard would need a lot of luck to beat him even if he knew what to expect. It wouldn't be like with Ace. Magellan only needs one attack to land and we've seen how good Blackbeard is in avoiding attacks. -_-;

Fox666
January 09, 2010, 04:42 PM
I fail to see your point about Shiryuu. Zoro is following Luffy and there isn't that much difference between them. I also can't imagine how Shiryuu would fare better than anyone else against Magellan. He would probably run rather than fight him.

Magellan is constantly soaked with poison when he fights. Anyone who touches him just shortens the battle and time starts working for Magellan. And there are also ranged attacks like hydras, balls and mist. Let's not forget the corroding poison either. Blackbeard would need a lot of luck to beat him even if he knew what to expect. It wouldn't be like with Ace. Magellan only needs one attack to land and we've seen how good Blackbeard is in avoiding attacks. -_-;Well, it was implied that Blackbeard is superior to Magellan, even if it hard to understand how he would beat Magellan.

It was implied by Shiryu, Magellan equal, being a subordinate to a "man of that caliber" and Shiryu commenting that Blackbeard underestimated Magellan.


And we don't know the extend of Blackbeard powers. We don't know if the gravity can block attacks or attack at distance, the battle with Ace didn't show much. Blackbeard is always picked under guard because he is really idiot, but that doesn't mean his Devil Fruit is limited. How does he survived that ultimate attack of Ace (the giant fire ball)? Surviving Magellan poison shall not be very different...


Edit: great, "Automerged Doublepost" deleted my entirely other message...

Razh
January 09, 2010, 05:20 PM
And we don't know the extend of Blackbeard powers. We don't know if the gravity can block attacks or attack at distance, the battle with Ace didn't show much. Blackbeard is always picked under guard because he is really idiot, but that doesn't mean his Devil Fruit is limited. How does he survived that ultimate attack of Ace (the giant fire ball)? Surviving Magellan poison shall not be very different...


Giant fire ball? That was probably sucked in by the black hole. Poison is different. If Blackbeard gets hit with it, the battle is over. We've seen how fast it acts. So far, in every fight against someone strong Blackbeard was hurt. Apart from sucking stuff in with darkness, there are no defensive abilities so far. Sucking in poison or other shit could work, but Blackbeard would have to have a perfect timing and would constantly have to be on the move. Just go back to first fight between Luffy and Magellan and check out Magellan's arsenal. It's just overwhelming. Nobody but logias has much chance against Magellan and that the reason I think he won't be coming out of Impel Down that fast.

It's the same as with Enel. He had to go somewhere far. If he went to sea there would be few people that could stop him.
[hr]


It was implied by Shiryu, Magellan equal, being a subordinate to a "man of that caliber" and Shiryu commenting that Blackbeard underestimated Magellan.


There's too much weight put on Shiryuu being "equal" to Magellan. Yeah, they had comparable strength right? Who do you think would have an advantage if they fought? One of them is a swordsman and the other spams various poison without end. Maybe Shiryuu could kill Magellan, but he would die pretty soon after.

Are you saying that Shiryuu saying to Blackbeard that he underestimated Magellan means that Blackbeard is supposed to be stronger? It just means that Blackbeard expected to beat him without much trouble. And he was wrong as we've seen.
A "man of that caliber"? It doesn't have to mean strength. What about leadership, guts? Are people drawn to Luffy because of his strength?

Fox666
January 09, 2010, 08:40 PM
Giant fire ball? That was probably sucked in by the black hole. Poison is different.Take two guys. Throw sulfuric acid at one. Use a blowtorch at the other. It's not that different.

There's too much weight put on Shiryuu being "equal" to Magellan. Yeah, they had comparable strength right? Who do you think would have an advantage if they fought? One of them is a swordsman and the other spams various poison without end. Maybe Shiryuu could kill Magellan, but he would die pretty soon after.

Are you saying that Shiryuu saying to Blackbeard that he underestimated Magellan means that Blackbeard is supposed to be stronger? It just means that Blackbeard expected to beat him without much trouble. And he was wrong as we've seen.
A "man of that caliber"? It doesn't have to mean strength. What about leadership, guts? Are people drawn to Luffy because of his strength?If it was only one thing, I would agree. But it's not...


[hr]


I have read some people saying that Haki makes Yami Yami no Mi useless. But here are the conclusion I come:

Blackbeard was one of Whitebeard pirates at Gold Roger times. And fought hard with Shanks. Based on that he should be one of the greatest specialists in Haki of the series. And he shouldn't be looking for Yami Yami no Mi for nothing.

And about the differences beetween the two:

Haki natures allows it to hit Logias because it destabilize the opponent, making him loosing control over his forms. And in the case of Luffy, like Rokushiki techniques Haki has penetration aspect.

Yami Yami no Mi is different, as it removes the Devil Fruit power. If you remember Blackbeard description, it works for Paramecia or Zoan. The Yami Yami no Mi sucks the "waves" of Devil Fruits.

Example of pratical use that differs Yami Yami no Mi from Haki: Sentoumaru vs Chopper - Haki doesn't give enough power to beat monster Chopper. Yami Yami no Mi would otherwise take Chopper backs to the quadrupede reindeer form.

And we don't know the extend of Yami Yami no Mi power.

Can Blackbeard use it at long range? Can he change the direction of attacks? Can he use gravity at an itensity which would make it looks like Blackbeard materialized a black sword?

And more important: can Blackbeard nullify Haki? Since "nothing escapes gravity". If Luffy starts to use Haki as an comventional attack, that would makes Blackbeard his ultimate enemy.

Razh
January 10, 2010, 05:39 AM
Take two guys. Throw sulfuric acid at one. Use a blowtorch at the other. It's not that different.

It appears you didn't understand what I meant.

Was Entei the only attack Ace used on Blackbeard or did he burn him at least 3 times before that? In case of Ace, fire didn't leave a lasting effect on Blackbeard. He was burned and the fire was extinguished or absorbed.

Poison poisons people. It enters the blood and then shit happens. I just don't understand why I have to explain all this when you perfectly know it yourself.

Gats
January 10, 2010, 07:43 AM
BB strength is a little hard to evaluate. His power is quite strange, he is at the same time so powerful but also weak in a way. He is far from invincible.

Potentially I see very well Robin breaking his neck in 2s with her power, despite his dark power...do you think that his entire body can cancel a DF power ? Maybe her arms wouldn't go out of his body because it's a DF power.

Fox666
January 10, 2010, 08:27 PM
Some notes:

- Blackbeard seems to be able to turn back Logia users without touching them. Touching seals the power completely, all defenses and attacks.

- Blackbeard "stored" some guards from Impel Down. So the gravity also works with dimensions (which makes sense for gravity). What's the extend of this ability?

It appears you didn't understand what I meant.

Was Entei the only attack Ace used on Blackbeard or did he burn him at least 3 times before that? In case of Ace, fire didn't leave a lasting effect on Blackbeard. He was burned and the fire was extinguished or absorbed.

Poison poisons people. It enters the blood and then shit happens. I just don't understand why I have to explain all this when you perfectly know it yourself.What I am trying to say is that Ace's final attack should pulverize the opponents. if Blackbeard survived it, there may be a way to handle the poison.

Dr. Vegapunk
January 10, 2010, 08:45 PM
Its funny but didn't shanks who is a Yonkou get his scars from blackbeard and that was before blackbeard got his Yami Yami no Mi devil fruit. Blackbeard is already Yonkou level. Mark my words he will be the final enemy luffy has to defeat for him to become the pirate king.

Didnt that happen like a long time ago, it sure as hell didnt happen recently.

Lord Rayleigh
January 11, 2010, 05:52 PM
What I am trying to say is that Ace's final attack should pulverize the opponents. if Blackbeard survived it, there may be a way to handle the poison.
BB's body is not protected by his DF power, unlike others logia users : there is definitely no way for him to handle the poison because of that.
About the fact he survived Ace's fire, Razh had said it several times : Ace's Entei had been absorbed into BB's darkness. That seems pretty obvious knowing the fact darkness absorbs everything.
Anyway, the same could be done with Magellan's poison : BB just needs to absorbe it BUT if he get touched by it, he will get injured.


I have to think that BB will beat Magellan. BB is still in ID and Oda said clearly that this incident is not finished yet. That means something had to happen for ID. As Magellan and the ID guards will have to face BB again, BB will get his re-match (like Luffy had against some opponents) and this time he'll beat Magellan thanks to his powers : he will protect himself from the poison, will cancel Magellan's powers and beat him.
He will do the same he did against Ace : he blocked Ace's fire attacks with darkness, canceled Ace's DF powers by catching him, hit him and absorbed him into darkness. He will just do the same fight against Magellan and his poisons.

LeKuaSimi
January 13, 2010, 06:14 AM
Did BB absorb the fire, or did he absorb the air around it thus extinguishing the fire? I am not sure if the same can be done to poison.

LongLiveOnePiece
January 16, 2010, 07:33 PM
hello guys.. i Think BB wil be the last villain of OP so he has to be uber strong:P. ..till now we know that he has been at Whitebeard's crew for more than 22 years ( chapter 0 ) so he is strong.as well Ace told him to become the 2nd division commander telling him that he is an old timer and obviously Ace recognizes his strength..to continue he killed Thatch, commiting the worst crime in a pirate ship..However, WB asked Ace not to go.he was a bit afraid a bit uneasy about that,so it means he knew he is powerful,,of course there is the fact that he beat Ace.fruit or no fruit,its part of him afterall..finally, he has even fought with shanks himself although we dont know the details..so o conclude he is powerful.way too powerful. and i think the same can be said for his crew-Shirryu vs Zoro will be hell of a battle:P
[hr]

BB strength is a little hard to evaluate. His power is quite strange, he is at the same time so powerful but also weak in a way. He is far from invincible.

Potentially I see very well Robin breaking his neck in 2s with her power, despite his dark power...do you think that his entire body can cancel a DF power ? Maybe her arms wouldn't go out of his body because it's a DF power.

what you say about robin may come true as a matter of fact.but in BB's case i think his physical power is far beyond robins DF.he wouldn't bother for some arms.he was WB's nakama for so long afterall.my opinion though :P
[hr]


Also, Blackbeard's awesome. I hope he kills Whitebeard in the upcoming battle.

although i love BB as an ultra powerful villain and character i dont want WB to die http://mangahelpers.com/forums/images/smilies/frown.jpg .we are speaking for the most powerful man alive ( oda only knows for how much more :P ) and the best DF.i dont say quake is the most powerful( it may be though.but it pawnsssssss.it kicks asses.it's so "beautiful"

kkck
January 17, 2010, 02:47 AM
I don't think BB would have that much trouble defeating magellan. What stops him from creating a huge mass of darkness and absorb magellan and every ounce of poison he can throw? There isn't even a thing magellan could do about it. At most magellan could pull of a double kill but that is it IMHO.

Razh
January 17, 2010, 09:57 AM
I don't think BB would have that much trouble defeating magellan. What stops him from creating a huge mass of darkness and absorb magellan and every ounce of poison he can throw? There isn't even a thing magellan could do about it. At most magellan could pull of a double kill but that is it IMHO.

So now you're saying that Blackbeard can defeat anyone in One Piece. Battles don't go that way. Otherwise the fights would be much shorter.

kkck
January 17, 2010, 11:16 AM
So now you're saying that Blackbeard can defeat anyone in One Piece. Battles don't go that way. Otherwise the fights would be much shorter.

That's barely an argument against what I said lol. Seriously, what exactly stops BB from creating a huge mass of darkness and absorbing magellan and evert ounce of poison he can throw? It's not like we haven't seen BB creating huge masses of darkness of absorbing people for later release, he could as easily just leave them there for a long time and let the starve. 3 days without water is more than enough. I guess there could be more limitations to BB fruit but right now we have no idea of any which would stop BB from just creating darkness and absorbing people for a few days. Here is what I am talking about.
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/542/06/
Why would it be different for BB to absorb magellan from absorbing that battleship along with the crew? Truth is the only way to avoid BB absorption would be to fly in a superman kinda way (not like a bird who relies of physics and stuff lol)

Razh
January 17, 2010, 12:41 PM
That's barely an argument against what I said lol. Seriously, what exactly stops BB from creating a huge mass of darkness and absorbing magellan and evert ounce of poison he can throw?

Plot does.
Sure, he could to that theoretically. But if he can do it that easily then there isn't anyone in One Piece who he can't beat. The gravity of black holes absorbs everything.

Blackbeard has shown that he's not really good at avoiding attacks. Even if he does try to pull in Magellan straight away, it's no guarantee that he'll escape unharmed. Magellan has versatile attacks. And if he knows what Blackbeard's power is, he won't be caught off guard.

I'd say Blackbeard should avoid that fight at all costs.

kkck
January 17, 2010, 04:30 PM
Plot does.
Sure, he could to that theoretically. But if he can do it that easily then there isn't anyone in One Piece who he can't beat. The gravity of black holes absorbs everything.

Blackbeard has shown that he's not really good at avoiding attacks. Even if he does try to pull in Magellan straight away, it's no guarantee that he'll escape unharmed. Magellan has versatile attacks. And if he knows what Blackbeard's power is, he won't be caught off guard.

I'd say Blackbeard should avoid that fight at all costs.

Then maybe that is the reason for which he sat behind in WB ship for decades, just waiting for this miracle all powerful fruit right? Even if he is not particularly good at avoiding attacks (and his fruit apparently makes it worst) once he activates it he can rampage to his liking while trashing and absorbing anyone. There might be a few problems with BB character when using the fruit but potentially he could get out of a fight by just absorbing people.

Omnion_1990
January 18, 2010, 01:38 PM
So, we cannot know if BB injured him when he was an apprentice or if he did when he was a pirate captain. The only thing that is sure is that it happened before he met Luffy (and thus before he came back to the GL for the second time and become a Yonkou).

over here before rogers death hes seen without it:

http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/565.5/04/

but what is cringing is over here its hidden:

http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/565.5/14/

so he may have got it then ^. but well never know.

All i know is that blackbeard WILL be MAD strong against Logia types, just how he has shown with ace. for god knows the length they never/ barely (if with haki) been hit in their life times with their logia powers which negate psychical attacks. after that long a hit by a man of blackbeards strength would, albeit not fatally harm someone, but SHOCK them enough for blackbeard to do srs damage to them.

as of yet i doubt anyone can avoid his dark attraction and since this is a relatively "new" ability he will only get more used to it an grow stronger.

but still i think the fact that this semi-logia power he has, has a HUGE weakness. if he fights someone like garp, someone who is mad fast and strong, he will be fuxxed. key to beating blackbeard is hitting him quicker than he can "activate" he darkness ability since physical attack hit him.

louizosr
January 23, 2010, 07:14 AM
a)i think luffy's speed and agility by gear second will be difficult to catch by bb's vortex,u have seen it he's fast
b)i dont think the one piece creator will give bb haki because he's a villan and he's sneaky
c)god eneru is pretty damn good no matter what luffy says(dont forget he can electrify his heart and revive and he wasnt defeated easily by luffy's stong punches and he has mantra)he's strong admit it
d)i dont want luffy to defeat bb..i want ace(he's my favorite and i want him have revenge but i do think that it will be mugiwara crew vs bb's crew)
e)i want to see knew moves from luffy,maggelan,ace,bb and i want to see luffy's crew and his reaction

LeKuaSimi
January 23, 2010, 10:39 AM
Even light cannot run from a black hole...What's more of infinite gravity?

And villians can have haki, fyi.

Schabrak
January 23, 2010, 10:40 AM
a)i think luffy's speed and agility by gear second will be difficult to catch by bb's vortex,u have seen it he's fast
b)i dont think the one piece creator will give bb haki because he's a villan and he's sneaky
c)god eneru is pretty damn good no matter what luffy says(dont forget he can electrify his heart and revive and he wasnt defeated easily by luffy's stong punches and he has mantra)he's strong admit it
d)i dont want luffy to defeat bb..i want ace(he's my favorite and i want him have revenge but i do think that it will be mugiwara crew vs bb's crew)
e)i want to see knew moves from luffy,maggelan,ace,bb and i want to see luffy's crew and his reaction
a) and he still cought him in ID without any effort, I'm not saying that Luffy could not get away, but escaping is not the goal in a fight.^^
b) name is Oda... and Teach seems to get companions/nakama just as easily as Luffy, just that his way of doing things is way darker/worse, they still have the same ambitions and dreams. Nonetheless, him having haki would'nt change his fighting style anyway, as his df power has the same effect, just more badass. Thus his power is much more effective against logia, than on the other fruits. We still have to see him fighting a zoan user. The admirals all have haki, so are they good guys now?
c) Enel may was just blabbering there. As if a logia would have heart problems... he can just switch to element form. His only pluis is he would never die of a heart stroke. If someone were to smash his heart in human form, he would damaged anyway
d) Odacchi does'nt care about single persons mind, ok he does but only in the SBS^^. Luffy did show that his willpower will let him come a long way and his revenge was interrupted by Jinbei, so he still has a fight to finish.
e) who does'nt? XD

kkck
January 24, 2010, 02:33 AM
a)i think luffy's speed and agility by gear second will be difficult to catch by bb's vortex,u have seen it he's fast
b)i dont think the one piece creator will give bb haki because he's a villan and he's sneaky
c)god eneru is pretty damn good no matter what luffy says(dont forget he can electrify his heart and revive and he wasnt defeated easily by luffy's stong punches and he has mantra)he's strong admit it
d)i dont want luffy to defeat bb..i want ace(he's my favorite and i want him have revenge but i do think that it will be mugiwara crew vs bb's crew)
e)i want to see knew moves from luffy,maggelan,ace,bb and i want to see luffy's crew and his reaction

I don't think luffy's speed would be able to save him from BB gravity. Luffy is fast but BB gravity covers far too much ground. Ace seems to be fairly fast without his fruit, probably more so than luffy (thats just my opinion ATM though) and he was still caught.

BB was one of the first people to ever talk about haki. He seems fairly knowledgeable about it. I doubt he knows about it but lacks the capacity to use it. He also was capable of hurting shanks before having his DF, I would think he has something which would allow him to have more than decent hand to hand combat.

beastboy
January 24, 2010, 06:31 AM
I don't think luffy's speed would be able to save him from BB gravity. Luffy is fast but BB gravity covers far too much ground. Ace seems to be fairly fast without his fruit, probably more so than luffy (thats just my opinion ATM though) and he was still caught.

BB was one of the first people to ever talk about haki. He seems fairly knowledgeable about it. I doubt he knows about it but lacks the capacity to use it. He also was capable of hurting shanks before having his DF, I would think he has something which would allow him to have more than decent hand to hand combat.

http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/544

If BB s that overpowr, and can create a mass of gravity, why didn't he create one of those to dodge luffy punch... I'd say that if it wasn't for Jinbei, BB would have a really tough time...
Its pretty obvious BB is weak against fisicall fighters... and Luffy is his perfect counter...
Stretches is arms behind... BB does Kurouso (at a greater distance, the one you saw there was close range), Luffy's arms start coming fowrword fast, and Luffy him self is going forword, it ends up a short ranged bazooka, with 2x speed..

bittman
January 24, 2010, 07:30 AM
Let's review the only battle of Blackbeard we've seen to date: He took 2 hits from a fire logia before getting an attack in.

Blackbeard is most likely a tank-like character, Luffy has always been an agility character. Review any of Luffy's battles, and he dodges even the most skilled opponent's attacks. Review Blackbeard's (brief) battles, and I'm yet to see him dodge a thing.

That's not to discredit Luffy. His rubber punches are ridiculously fast, and I don't think Blackbeard is top tier yet enough to block them with ease or take them without damage.

I still find this thread strange. It's far too hard to rate Blackbeard, he's still completely unpredictable and, as Shanks and Jimbei have mentioned, was always an "unknown quantity".

Blackbeard is still more hype than hard evidence.

chess4
January 24, 2010, 10:40 AM
BB is a beast, but we really dont know how strong he is. either way he will be a big player in the new world. i cant wait until he recruits the 3 super pirates on level 3

ScratchmenApoo
February 02, 2010, 08:03 AM
Blackbeard is probably gaining allies for his plan to succeed. He knows that even though his darkness fruit is the 'strongest of them all' , he cannot succeed without other nakama. For other people to join him, there must be a good motive. Probably what he is aiming for (all following is my own personal belief) is world domination by finding ancient weapons like Pluton and use fear as a reason for people to follow him. If he indeed went to Impel Down to find more of those herendous pirates, they will join him because they got thrown into jail for wanting something similar themselves. Now if Blackbeard asks them to join and rule the world, they'll agree for sure.

Maybe it's something close to this.. Blackbeard knows that one of the prisoners in Impel Down knows the secrets to a weapon like Pluton and gets him/her to join and reveal information in exchange of escape.
See, Blackbeard can't do everything himself. He needs all the allies he can get.

And the battle against Luffy isn't that easy. If Luffy has the speed and Blackbeard can't catch up, he will surely be knocked out eventually because for how long can you keep taking hits. Maybe he is a tank character, but everyone has a limit.

LeKuaSimi
February 02, 2010, 08:34 AM
Well, BB can create a mass of darkness, which would be able to absorb Luffy. That attack is called blackhole. Now when Luffy used bazooka on BB, BB did not dodge not attempt to negate the damage with his df. It is just his style.


a) and he still cought him in ID without any effort, I'm not saying that Luffy could not get away, but escaping is not the goal in a fight.^^
b) name is Oda... and Teach seems to get companions/nakama just as easily as Luffy, just that his way of doing things is way darker/worse, they still have the same ambitions and dreams. Nonetheless, him having haki would'nt change his fighting style anyway, as his df power has the same effect, just more badass. Thus his power is much more effective against logia, than on the other fruits. We still have to see him fighting a zoan user. The admirals all have haki, so are they good guys now?
c) Enel may was just blabbering there. As if a logia would have heart problems... he can just switch to element form. His only pluis is he would never die of a heart stroke. If someone were to smash his heart in human form, he would damaged anyway
d) Odacchi does'nt care about single persons mind, ok he does but only in the SBS^^. Luffy did show that his willpower will let him come a long way and his revenge was interrupted by Jinbei, so he still has a fight to finish.
e) who does'nt? XD

c)Wiper' skate has seastone.

ScratchmenApoo
February 02, 2010, 11:52 AM
Now when Luffy used bazooka on BB, BB did not dodge not attempt to negate the damage with his df. It is just his style.

I disagree. Blackbeard had never fought Luffy before nor had he an idea of his powers. He underestimated Luffy. Luffy's Second Gear attacks are extremely fast and Blackbead had no time to think. Now as Luffy went for the second attack, Blackbeard already had full awareness of the situation and acted accordingly.
That's Blackbeard's only weakness, he is too confident in his strength.
Also if someone has a fast unexpected attack (as proven by Magellan too) Blackbeard can do absolutely nothing about it and is forced to take a direct hit. Luffy's Jet Bazooka is his strongest attack (maybe Jet Gatling if he lands 100% of the hits for a long period of time) and Blackbeard recovered quite fast, so the only attack I can think of actually surprising in both speed and strength is the 200 million volt by Enel.

Fox666
February 02, 2010, 12:59 PM
Seriously, Blackbeard weakness is that he keep talking while in battle. ALL his battles he did that and ended up being attacked.

senewe
February 03, 2010, 08:40 PM
He is STRONG
seriously, he fought SHANKS without his yami-yami fruit...
and i think he posses haki. how can he tied up with shanks without it (and DF)

RichardMNixon
February 03, 2010, 11:10 PM
Plot armor is definitely his greatest asset. The way that he seems to KNOW he has plot armor though is what I think makes him so incredible as a character, and why I feel justified in including it in his strength as opposed to whining about it. http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/549/03/

bittman
March 23, 2010, 08:57 PM
There's like ten Blackbeard threads, but I figured my idea best fit into here:

Now that we've been introduced to Blackbeard's ability to, not only "wield" two devil fruits, but also steal them from the previous owner upon death, many have been asking how it was possible.

That's not what I've been thinking about however. My wonder is: did Teach kill Thatch BEFORE or AFTER Thatch completely claimed it by eating it? We've always assumed that Teach killed Thatch in order to steal the Devil Fruit from him to eat himself. However, consider this:

If all Teach needed to do was "steal" the fruit from Thatch, would it not be as simple as overpowering him, or even just sneaking by him, nicking the fruit and then moving on? Where in all of this did Thatch need to die? Now that we've seen how Blackbeard needed a dead Whitebeard in order to obtain his quake fruit, is it possible that Thatch also ate the fruit and thus Blackbeard was forced to kill him in order to claim the fruit's power for himself.

I also wonder whether his "logia" intangibility is actually due to the fruit, or due to how he claimed it? If he has room for two devil fruits, especially if he's not the original owner of either, then perhaps the intangibility is that his body is unable to fully assimilate with only one fruit?

Just some thoughts on Thatch and the 2 DF's. We actually may never find out anymore about Thatch being killed by Blackbeard in the end. It might just continue as an assumed fact that Blackbeard best Thatch in combat and stole the uneaten Yami Yami no Mi from him with no further light ever shed on the event or battle.

Fox666
March 23, 2010, 09:29 PM
Yes, Blackbeard is not the most gentle guy, but we know he still had respect for Whitebeard and Ace. It's hard to believe that he would kill the commander for nothing.

WinningDays
March 23, 2010, 11:22 PM
If all Teach needed to do was "steal" the fruit from Thatch, would it not be as simple as overpowering him, or even just sneaking by him, nicking the fruit and then moving on? Where in all of this did Thatch need to die? Now that we've seen how Blackbeard needed a dead Whitebeard in order to obtain his quake fruit, is it possible that Thatch also ate the fruit and thus Blackbeard was forced to kill him in order to claim the fruit's power for himself.

Just some thoughts on Thatch and the 2 DF's. We actually may never find out anymore about Thatch being killed by Blackbeard in the end. It might just continue as an assumed fact that Blackbeard best Thatch in combat and stole the uneaten Yami Yami no Mi from him with no further light ever shed on the event or battle.
I wondered why BB killed Tatch... and when he got the Gura Gura power he hid himself away which doesn't make much sense if he just used the Yami Yami power, so it would make sense that he has some other ability which allows him to take devil fruit powers... But it's also strange that he has a power like that in the first place, no one else has it or has ever heard of it, and it makes BB seem more powerful than necessary...

I think BB might tell the secret himself one day since he seems to like boasting about his powers... but he's not really in that kind of situation at the moment and the WB pirates are not in a position to ask either... well, it might come up in an SBS....
[hr]
I also think that the Yami Yami fruit can't be that powerful because it failed at least once before... If BB already knew what it looked like and it's powers then that means it was on the Devil Fruit Encyclopedia, which probably means someone else had it and died... So it is beatable... of course, the previous owner might've of died from old age or drowning but who knows... There should be some kind of fatal weakness though... but BB seems really confident in it so maybe he can overcome it or maybe he really thinks he's invincible....

omgeggman
April 05, 2010, 09:56 PM
I think Zoro would be more effective aginst BB.

Like BB said he can absorb fire. But once Zoro slashes him he can't "absorb" the slash.

St Michael
April 06, 2010, 03:44 AM
Actually , according to him , he can.

http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/441/11/

Lord Rayleigh
April 06, 2010, 03:55 AM
I think he did not mean slash like a distant attack like Mihawks' again Whitebeard. I bet he meant a cutting attack like Whitebeard's on Blackbeard.

Razh
April 06, 2010, 05:30 AM
Actually , according to him , he can.

http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/441/11/

How bout reading the panel after that one in which he continues to explain how he can't let the attacks pass through him like other logias can. He takes damage like anyone else, maybe even more. No dodging slashes for Blackbeard.

As for Thatch matter, I don't think Blackbeard had waited for him to eat the fruit first. He probably went after the fruit pretty soon after he spotted it (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/440/17/).
I don't even think that Blacbkeard bested Thatch in a battle or something like that. They were on Moby Dick. The battle between two members would draw attention, and I doubt it that Blackbeard could have escaped after that.
I don't know what's so weird about Blackbeard killing Thatch. It's not for "no reason". He has been planning shit for 2 decades at the least. He wasn't going to risk being caught after getting his hands on the fruit that he's been searching for for 20 years.
A dead Thatch is a Thatch that can't warn anyone about Blackbeard's betrayal. He probably hid his body so he can get away far enough before anyone realizes what had occurred,

kangclaw
April 06, 2010, 01:21 PM
Yeah that make sense, he joined WB's crew for a specific reason.

anaskr
May 23, 2010, 10:28 AM
i wanted to know is Blackbeard's ability of making a DF to loose his abilities the same when haki is used to fight against a logia???!!

Look at rayleigh when he used his haki kizaru was just a normal person and lost his power!!! if you tell me that he could not run away because even rayleigh has some power but as far as i know there is nothing faster than light so kizaru could have just run away!! i wouldn buy that because i feel haki makes a logia impossible to use his DF!!

Schabrak
May 23, 2010, 11:02 AM
As Kizaru fought with his light sword, no, he was able to use his powers, even when fighting Rayleight.

Omnion_1990
May 23, 2010, 11:30 AM
i wanted to know is Blackbeard's ability of making a DF to loose his abilities the same when haki is used to fight against a logia???!!

Look at rayleigh when he used his haki kizaru was just a normal person and lost his power!!! if you tell me that he could not run away because even rayleigh has some power but as far as i know there is nothing faster than light so kizaru could have just run away!! i wouldn buy that because i feel haki makes a logia impossible to use his DF!!

No, haki is "ambition". i will "stop" someone, i will "cut them". As rayleigh did. I think the emperor haki is the final ultimate form of haki. Haki doesnt remove the other ability of the df user, as shown by rayleigh vs kizaru, is gives the person the "ambition" to do SOMETHING to the df user, bypassing their df abilties. bypassing something is NOT the same as removing it, which is what blackbeards ability does.


http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/512/08/


http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/544/06/

^if he had the quake quake fruit then and smashed it into luffy he wouldve died.

however haki will let you slice/ cut a logia but if the user also uses his own ambition then you wont cut him but they wont do sheet to you.
prime example of this are whitebeard hitting kizaru and aoikiji.

examples of haki negation are when marco and vista "cut" akainu, akainu didnt get damaged BUT vistas swords never got melted away by his molten abilities, like others did.


http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/574/07/

the only SOLID proof i have that haki is used in this way is akainu mentioning "Haki users" and when shanks stopped akainu coby did the bubble thing/ response to an overwhelming haki.

Now the scary thing about blackbeard ability is it COMPLETELY removes someone ability therefore even if they use haki you can still slice the f*** out of them. this is a HAX ability, now i think when whitebeard mashed an earthquake in akainus face akainu used haki to keep his head in "molten" form not to get hit by whitebeards haki, but whitebeards being superior it didnt damage but was buffered.

Now imagine taking away the logia aspect of akainu and getting smashed in the head with an earthquake... akainu only survived because his head was made out of magma. his brain/ skull wont survive a quake.

blackbeard has become god, he doesnt need haki. i think thats the reason he searched for this. blackbeard, does not have haki therefore he found the turn around - removing df users abilities then the power to smash them whilst they are "Human".

Im interested about what marco said about his body being "unusual". Could he be a cyborg? the biggest part of blackbeard strength is his cunningness though.

Lord Rayleigh
May 23, 2010, 01:56 PM
Haki does not prevent people from using their DF powers.

Remember when Rayleigh save Zoro (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/511/18-19/), light is spreading everywhere after Kizaru was kicked.
When Shanks save Coby (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/579/14-15/), he managed to block Akainu's MAGMA arm.
When Garp holds Luffy (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/582/16/) and injures him, Luffy is still stretching.
And there is also when Marco and Vista cut Akainu with Haki, Akainu still uses his magma powers.

Actually, Haki is something that somehow manages SOMETIMES to injure DF users.

anaskr
May 23, 2010, 03:14 PM
F*** man how is it possible for someone to kill blackbeard??

i guess he has the power to take one more DF sooner or later he will be doing that !! and as u said about the marco thing, what is blackbeard actually that stupid idiot!!

hmmmm.... i bet ODA is going to give his favorite a slow death where he wont be able to control himself once he acquires the new DF!! Zehahahahaha :D

OQO
May 30, 2010, 11:02 AM
I think Zoro would be more effective aginst BB.

Like BB said he can absorb fire. But once Zoro slashes him he can't "absorb" the slash.

Right! I find BB's powers a little bit stupid... maybe he can absorb even a deep slash, but if he receives a death blow he shouldn't be able to absorb anything anymore! Or else it would mean that he is able to trick death, and he would be invincible against every power no matter which one!! So a well aimed shot to the head should be the solution to BB's existence. :eyeroll

Lord Rayleigh
May 30, 2010, 03:45 PM
Right! I find BB's powers a little bit stupid... maybe he can absorb even a deep slash, but if he receives a death blow he shouldn't be able to absorb anything anymore! Or else it would mean that he is able to trick death, and he would be invincible against every power no matter which one!! So a well aimed shot to the head should be the solution to BB's existence. :eyeroll
So the majority of the DF's powers are stupid ? A lot of DF users would die from a shot to the head.

chess4
May 30, 2010, 04:26 PM
i cant help but to think that BB is going to get another fruit. i know its been said a bunch, but we all know how oda likes to to drop subtle hints, and if you look at all the jolly rogers they mirror their captains. BB's flag has 3 heads and i think oda did that on purpose to say he will get another fruit. since he has a logia and a paremecia, so maybe he will get a zoan fruit.

Lord Rayleigh
May 30, 2010, 05:53 PM
i cant help but to think that BB is going to get another fruit. i know its been said a bunch, but we all know how oda likes to to drop subtle hints, and if you look at all the jolly rogers they mirror their captains. BB's flag has 3 heads and i think oda did that on purpose to say he will get another fruit. since he has a logia and a paremecia, so maybe he will get a zoan fruit.
And he may already have a zoan : we still don't know why he hid under his darkness blanket when he stole WB's DF.

OQO
May 31, 2010, 03:42 AM
So the majority of the DF's powers are stupid ? A lot of DF users would die from a shot to the head.

Exactly. If it's just this simple to get rid of them, you can't say it's a useful power. Logia's users are the deal! 'Cause you need a greater power to rule them. With others DF's users it depends on the specific gained power. With some, like BB's one, if you are smart enough they're not a problem at all. BB's power would be more efficient if it could repel things, like Pain's (Naruto ndr).

ZZPallando
May 31, 2010, 04:29 AM
So the majority of the DF's powers are stupid ? A lot of DF users would die from a shot to the head.

... and WB was not one of them! ^^


Anyway, it's indeed possible BB already has a zoan... I like the idea of a mythical zoan "Black Tortoise" which would make the user's body very resilient and "give" him two more "bodies" (the snake and the turtle) and for each part the user could eat a DF.
His original self having eaten a zoan, he could only take two more...

But somehow this theory is unlikely since Marco (and the others) would know why his body is special, and would have been suprised when he took the Darkness DF, not the Quake fruit...

chess4
May 31, 2010, 09:27 AM
... and WB was not one of them! ^^


Anyway, it's indeed possible BB already has a zoan... I like the idea of a mythical zoan "Black Tortoise" which would make the user's body very resilient and "give" him two more "bodies" (the snake and the turtle) and for each part the user could eat a DF.
His original self having eaten a zoan, he could only take two more...

But somehow this theory is unlikely since Marco (and the others) would know why his body is special, and would have been suprised when he took the Darkness DF, not the Quake fruit...

i dont think he has a zoan fruit yet, i think he will get one down the road though

OdaForPresident
May 31, 2010, 02:56 PM
I do think blackbeard has a mythical zoan, the cerberus type. That would also explain his pirate flag, with the three skulls.

http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/235/10/

So then he would have three heads and three devil fruits. Then he'd also have Zoan, Logia and Paramecia type fruits.

chess4
May 31, 2010, 03:02 PM
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/577/16-17/

look at what marco said..............he suggested that teach had an abnormal body, not that he had another devil fruit, but a cerebus fruit would make sense.

Dasbones
May 31, 2010, 04:47 PM
I think Blackbeard is a very interesting character, his appearance is a stark contrast to both his power, and personality. he's the very example of a scheming villain (although I can't say he is very evil, the WG is vastly more sinister than any pirate could be.), but he happens to be housed in a brutish thug's body.

Odd theory of how he was able to consume more than one devil fruit: Since the majority of his mass is his gut, I think being able to eat more than one devil fruit has something to do with your body's ability to digest more than one, since they taste horrible and may have adverse effects on your health if mixed with another. Maybe eating more than one is like poison, so building up an impossibly resistant digestive system would allow you to consume more than one fruit.

Also, since his Fruit controls gravity, and since not even light can escape that, perhaps he was able to consume the 'power' (since Kuma is able to 'reflect' concepts like pain, which have no physical form) of whitebeard's devil fruit through that same gravity, thus not actually having to eat the fruit. This would also explain the reason for the large tarp that had to be thrown over, assuming he needs a larger shadow to produce a stronger force of gravity. I deduced that from seeing most all of his darkness protruding from his back (again assuming a light source would be shining towards him).

Honestly I prefer the Cerberus/Chimera theory, but I just wanted to throw that out there.

zagorka
June 01, 2010, 09:18 AM
I don't think it has anything to do with his gut being so big. Other characters have huge bodies as well. It doesn't mean the same thing applies for them, does it?

I think the Cerberus-fruit theory fits nicely so far. By it being some ancient zoan type fruit would explain why Blackbeard hasn't shown his other two heads. If Blackbeard didn't eat a Cerberus fruit, and was born like that by some birth-defect, then I'd buy that as well. Either way, it's the most plausible theory I've heard so far.

But I agree with you. Blackbeard is an amazing character. He has gained two of the most troublesome powers in the manga by far. Not that he's invincible, but I just love how Oda made him into such an overbearing character that Luffy must overcome at some point. Not even Roger had an opponent as dangerous as him (as far as we know).

Dasbones
June 01, 2010, 07:23 PM
I don't think it has anything to do with his gut being so big. Other characters have huge bodies as well. It doesn't mean the same thing applies for them, does it?

well perhaps I've been generalizing, but Marco and Jimbei did comment about his strange body, so it may not have something to do with his gut, its more likely that he trained himself to handle two fruits. Again, I still prefer the Cerberus/Chimera theory

Bugzee
June 04, 2010, 01:59 AM
It’s going to be interesting what he does now. I wonder where or what Island/region BB will decide to use for the sole purpose of “training” and “testing” out his new powers on? XD

First a logia ability, now a deadly paracemia power….mmm. I wonder what’s next? :P

goldb
June 04, 2010, 04:27 AM
He's probably off to the New World already. There's no point of him sticking around the Grandline where there are plenty of Marines who would want to go after him.

I think once the story gets back to the present, we'll start hearing a lot in the papers about BB skirmishes and fights, among other things.

Truefan21
June 18, 2010, 01:03 AM
he probably can take on an admiral with the help of his crew now

Dasbones
June 18, 2010, 01:38 AM
If he got his head out of his ass if he fights them and doesn't monologue, he could take all three of them. (not at the same time of course)

One thing about Blackbeard having the Quake fruit is that he can never use it effectively as Whitebeard did. Not because of any lack of skill or experience with it, it's operation seems straight forward; it's more related with the amount of physical strength he needs to create a shockwave. Whenever Whitebeard used his power, he seemed to use a considerable amount of strength to create the shockwave, and I think it's safe to say that Whitebeard was leagues ahead of Blackbeard (let alone anyone else ever) in terms of physical strength. This of course does not make Blackbeard any less dangerous, it just means he isn't as Hax as he's played out to be (especially since he's slow and likes to yap alot).

Truefan21
June 19, 2010, 12:53 AM
interesting point but BB seems have insane physical strength as well
of course not greater than WB as you said

Dasbones
June 19, 2010, 04:56 PM
http://img-c.onemanga.com/mangas/00000002/000296532/12-13.jpg

I just noticed when they took the tarp off of Blackbeard and Whitebeard, white smoke was coming off from his back, and was contained under the tarp, and his clothes seem to have turned white, and fading back to their original color. Judging by that, I don't think he used the Yami Yami no Mi to steal Whitebeard's power, it must be something else...

Did anyone else notice this?

Schabrak
June 20, 2010, 09:30 AM
Nah his cape is still black, and his shirt was always white.^^ The darker pieces are likely just the shadow of his arm or some spilt blood.

Seems more like some hot steam coming of his body or just some wrinkles from the ligthed blanket.

Fox666
June 20, 2010, 11:11 AM
In One Piece there is always steam coming out... :p And once the war started Marineford was always comered by smoke and explosion

Deo_df
June 21, 2010, 04:20 AM
I always just thought that the power of the Yami Yami fruit of blackbeard allows him to send things to a parallel dimension. As such he can retrieve things from the same dimension. That whole line regards zoro luffy and nami where she goes thats the guy from inside and zoro and luffy say its not him? I think that indicates that they switch dimensions. So there are two different identical blackbeards, one with whitebeards power the other with blackbeards power. Its also when people say Teach or should I say blackbeard, indicates to me that they may know there are two blackbeards, one called teach the other blackbeard. dont know, but it seems plausible...right???

OdaForPresident
June 22, 2010, 03:46 AM
two blackbeards doesn't make any sense to me. especially because blackbeard is shown using both the yami yami no mi and the gura gura no mi at the same time.

Dasbones
July 03, 2010, 01:27 AM
I think they meant he was schizophrenic, since his personality does seem to change dramatically from time to time. Such as when he was acting rather silly in the bar when he first met Luffy, then he started acting like the 'normal' Blackbeard, but when he is in combat his brow furrows and his eyes darken, making him seem evil and maniacal. Of course, there are many characters that have varied personalities, so its a stretch to say that just because Teach has been commented by both Zoro and Luffy as a 'they' that would make him schizophrenic, since many characters act like that... sorta.

I'm wondering how Blackbeard would handle a true Mano-e-Mano fight against Luffy, since Luffy (along with most everyone) is infinitely faster than him, and much more Agile. Hell without his ability to drag people in his grasp, I'd say he'd be pretty much next to hopeless in a fight with a fast opponent like Luffy. It's tough to imagine since we haven't seen what he is really capable of, and what his physical prowess extends to, since he's only shown impossible feats of endurance, and... well I wouldn't say strength, since he hasn't shown anything amazing outside of smacking Ace around (since Ace isn't that big of a dude).

Alien81
July 04, 2010, 03:05 PM
I have already said imo, his the strongest character known yet so far, but a lot people didn't agree, so i said then if i was to consider the character whose closes to the strongest now would be BB imo.

He now has two of the most dangerous DF's.

Yami Yami No Mi = Hax
Quake Power = strongest

What make's BB overly not impressive at first, is that his too over confident, and always understimate his opponent's for some reason.

if he could actually respect and not understimate his opponents, then am sure most ppl will see exactly how good he is.

P.S

His the strongest imo, but it doesn;t mean his invincible, or can't be beating.

OdaForPresident
July 05, 2010, 04:34 AM
I also think he's the strongest out there.

He's got two of the most dangerous powers and he's got a lot of combat experience. Don't forget that he's also the one who gave Shanks that scar on his face.

His powers are set up so that Luffy has a chance against him. He himself has to absorb all attacks while at the same time disabling any fruit power used against him. So any fight will turn out as a raw power vs raw power slug fest. Luffy always has a chance in that sort of battle.

St Michael
July 07, 2010, 02:35 AM
His powers are set up so that Luffy has a chance against him. He himself has to absorb all attacks while at the same time disabling any fruit power used against him. So any fight will turn out as a raw power vs raw power slug fest. Luffy always has a chance in that sort of battle.


Have you forgot the Gura power ?

If he holds Luffy with his (let's say) left hand (as he did in ID) and quakes him with his right , Luffy is done for.

Even without touching him , I doubt a rubber body would help Luffy against a quake.

OdaForPresident
July 08, 2010, 02:33 PM
If its just a quake, then yes, luffy has a chance for sure. The rubber will just bend, not break. But if he holds him with the darkness power and then hits him with a quake. Then I agree, Luffy wouldn't make it.

Dasbones
July 08, 2010, 09:35 PM
Well if the Quakes are backed up with Haki, I don't think that Luffy can withstand that, but strictly speaking; The quake attacks are basically just vibrations, Luffy will just wiggle and make noise, haha :P

Bloodwinter
July 09, 2010, 04:27 PM
Blackbeard at this point I would have to say is definitely rising to the top. I wouldn't say he's the most powerful man in the world, but he has a lot under his belt to prove his strength.

Let's start with the fact that he was one of the Whitebeard pirates for decades. He was at the earliest shown in Chapter 0, when Shiki came aboard the ship speaking of his plan to Whitebeard. Which means he's had two decades to learn from Whitebeard and train himself physically. If he was planning things from that far back, it would only make sense that he was working out most of the other parts of his plan. 20 years is a lot of time to formulate a plan, especially with the freedom granted by being a Whitebeard Pirate. He was nominated to be the 2nd Division Commander, which he gave to Ace to stay as low as possible. This already is evidence of his battle prowess. During this time he had fought with a Yonkou, Shanks, and was able to give him 3 deep scars; not just physically, but mentally. Then at the end of his run as a member of the Whitebeard Pirates was able to battle with Thatch, Fourth Division Commander of the Whitebeard Pirates and kill him with no lasting scars of his own. (Note: This was before he had the power of the Devil Fruit mind you)

After he had left, Whitebeard himself was against having people go after Teach because he felt very uneasy about the situation. When Whitebeard himself doesn't feel strongly about something to the point of worry that is a terrible omen. Two Yonkou fear his intentions and the outcome of what he's going to do, if that isn't enough of a sign I don't know what is. He was able to demolish all of Drum Kingdom to the point of causing the Governing forces to leave entirely. He was also looking for a way to get into the Shichibukai, which meant he was confident in his abilities enough to hunt high profile criminals and subdue them.

Most notably is the application of his devil fruit and his defeat of Ace, which makes two Commanders of the Strongest Man in the World's fleet he defeated. Ace was a very big pirate across the seas and fought with many of the series strongest characters, causing a very big commotion throughout the World Government. He was also going to be one of the Shichibukai at a very young age, probably the youngest in the series, shortly after setting out to sea. Defeating him was nothing short of incredible in terms of strength.

The way he is now with both the powers of the Yami Yami no Mi and Gura Gura no Mi, his power is absolutely nothing to laugh over. Is he the strongest person in the series? I wouldn't necessarily say that, but he's up there. With time he'll definitely be one of them, which has been stated at least once during the series.