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Lord Rayleigh
May 03, 2009, 09:07 AM
As Akainu said, we should discuss about the Vice-Admirals in a defined topic.
Can a moderator hide the poll before answering ?
The results of this poll are hidden until there's further request from the thread starter.
The results of the poll are now publicized, again by request from the thread starter.


From what we know of the V-A, by their position, their are just under the Admiral's position, by the name of their rank, their are the ones supposed to take an Admiral position if one of the Admirals had to fall/retire (#).
We do not know how many Vice-Admirals there are in the Marine but from what we have seen of the East Blue, they were no V-A in charge of a town. And Logue Town - which is for me the most important one of East Blue - was " just " guarded by a Colonel in terms of rank.
So, I think there is no V-A who are in charge of a land in East Blue and by the same way in West/South/North Blue.
Thus, the V-A come only in the 4 seas when it is necessary as Garp did with Colonel Morgan. Moreover, if Garp - THE hero of the marine - came himself in East Blue to take Colonel Morgan, I think they were not a lot of V-A available for the job ; he must have been chosen because he was the one (only one ?) knowing a lot of East Blue as he had family there.
From the number of V-A that have been revealed, we know they were at least 6-7 at the Ohara Buster Call time (the 5 of the Buster Call, Haguar D. Sauro (http://www.volonte-d.com/perso/images/sauro.jpg) and Garp who I think was already a V-A at this time).
From what we have seen of active V-A, there are Garp, John Giant (http://www.volonte-d.com/perso/images/giant.jpg),Tsuru (http://www.volonte-d.com/perso/images/tsuru.jpg), Komil (http://www.volonte-d.com/perso/images/komil.jpg), and the 5 ones of the Enies Lobby Buster Call, and maybe this one (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/531/02/).
I think we can suppose that their are a V-A for each marine camp : what I mean by marine camp is a G- base of the marine. For example, Komil is the V-A responsible of the G-2 base.
So, they are at least 9 active V-A at the actual time and I think a bit more because of the number of G-x bases. But there are not too many V-A because V-A is a super important rank (#). Another proof would be that 2 of the 5 V-A shown in the past became Admirals : this ratio (1/3 or 2/7, it depends if you count Garp or not) is inclined to prove that there are not too much V-A in the marine. Others would be that the V-A in charge of the transport of Boa Hancock was an already known one Momonga (http://www.volonte-d.com/perso/images/momonga.jpg), a V-A responsible for Ace transport to MHQ is already known : it is Onigumo (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/539/15/). So, not a lot V-A in the marine because a V-A rank is an elite rank.
From what we have seen of the V-A fighting, the V-A Kuzan (future Ao Kiji) was a monster, V-A Haguar D. Sauro was a monster too, V-A Garp is a monster, V-A Momonga beat without trouble and quickly a Sea King of the Calm Belt and strained Boa Hancock's powers. We have not seen others abilities of a V-A if we do not count the commandment.
Moreover, Ivankov who has been revealed to be a monster too has acknowledged the strenght of the V-A here (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/540/14/).
And to finish I quote myself :
Vice-Admirals must be super strong because they are prepared to suffer a WB attack while they transport Ace to MHQ. It is something unbelievable : the equivalent of a Buster Call is supposed to handle WB attack on the sea. I mean they are supposed to transport Ace to MHQ and one of the VA said himself to be ready to fight against WB on the way to MHQ.
And the one (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/531/02/) I suppose to be an V-A is leading the team that has been sent by the MHQ to capture Luffy after they learnt he invaded ID. So, he is thought to be able to capture Luffy whereas they know they had already underestimated Luffy who beat 2 Shichis and Lucci. So, they really think this guy can beat him. And if he is not a V-A, it would mean a less rank would be able to beat Luffy, so the V-A in all the cases are supposed to be better than supernovae (plus Luffy is known by the Marine to be one of the best supernovae and the grandson of Garp).


As a conclusion, I would say that a lot of people are underestimating the V-A and that they are by definition and by facts a part of the elite force of the Marine (with the Admirals).
So, the V-A are globally better than supernovae and must be at the level of silver medalists (the captain pirates under the Yonkou).

Roarchu
May 03, 2009, 10:52 AM
I don't think rank = strength

Mihawk and Shanks are about the same, but one is Shichi and one is Yonkou

There are ppl/merman/etc of different levels among ranks

and what's a silver medalist? i don't remember, can u give one example of who is one?

And buster call summons 5 VA's, but in the Luffy vs Lucci battle the badass guy was still Lucci. Garp wasn't there tho, i'm not sure how strong he is, but there are just ppl who are more badass than others
[hr]
so according to the Luffy vs Lucci fight Lucci should be at Supernova level right? The VA's didn't seem like all that next to him.
[hr]
look how one of the VA's's talking about how Lucci is freakin badass

http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/422/03/

Lord Rayleigh
May 03, 2009, 11:20 AM
I don't think rank = strength
There are ppl/merman/etc of different levels among ranks

The rank of a marine does not necessary mean he is stronger than the ones under him by rank, and less strong that the ones above him : you are right : it depends on your experience, missions, strenght etc ...
But I think, at a certain level, experience/missions are not enough to be promoted.
For me, to be promoted to V-A, the position just under Admiral, you need to be really strong because you are supposed to be the ones that will cover for Admirals.
And I think everybody will agree that to be promoted to Admiral, you need to be the stronger of the V-A and of course, you already have experience/missions but it seems normal as you were already a V-A.
So, I just think it works in the same manner to be promoted to V-A : you need to be strong and have others abilities like tactic, experience because you join the " school ", the stock for Admirals : the next Admiral must be an ex-V-A. It means the V-A are the elites of the marine that are supposed to complete the Admirals. So, the V-A gather strenght, experience, missions : there are the best of the non Admirals marines.


Mihawk and Shanks are about the same, but one is Shichi and one is Yonkou
I was just talking about Marine ranks and especially V-A, not about pirates. And Mihawks is a Shichi and cannot be a Yonkou first because he has decided to stop being an outlaw pirate.
And we do not really know if Mihawks is as strong as Shanks.


and what's a silver medalist? i don't remember, can u give one example of who is one?
The silver medalist are the pirates that are just under the Yonkou who can be assimilated to the gold medalist. They seem to not really like Yonkou, especially WB, because he is someone that they cannot beat. In terms of strenght, they are supposed to be the pirates just under the Yonkou.


And buster call summons 5 VA's, but in the Luffy vs Lucci battle the badass guy was still Lucci. Garp wasn't there tho, i'm not sure how strong he is, but there are just ppl who are more badass than others
None of the 5 V-A fought, they have to give orders to all the marines that were on their warship. There are of course V-A stronger than others but to be accepted in the V-A category, you must be able to be called for any urgent and very important mission, so, you have to be able to manage the missions in all the cases : the WG and the MHQ must be confident in the abilities of the ones they sent in that kind of mission : it is why there are V-A at the head of this missions because they believe in their capacities.
It is why you are supposed to be strong globally. Tsuru seems to be the only one V-A who do not look strong : it is because she is only working at Mariejoa : she does not move to fight, to travel, to do missions, she only gives orders. This seems to be the only exception to the V-A, the only one who is not posted on MHQ as the others.

Qc_stryder
May 03, 2009, 01:08 PM
VAs need to be strong since they will succeed the admirals, who are the marines strongest fighters, the elite force.

Onomatopoeia
May 03, 2009, 02:05 PM
Its more then likely that they're always three possible Admiral replacements among the VA ranks. Its extremely unlikely that all VA's can be Admirals, meaning not all are beasts. Case and Point Jaguar getting owned by Future Admiral Aokijii.

Qc_stryder
May 03, 2009, 03:11 PM
he got owned cuz he was trying to save robin. we dont know how strong he really was, but aokiji was stronger than him. but hes an exeption...

beastboy
May 03, 2009, 03:18 PM
Well I voted supernova lvl, because if they're just below admirals most be super strong, but there are VA and VA, if Lelouch was a marine, sure he would be promoted to VA just because he can beat an numerous group just with 5 random people.

PS:I've got an Idea, maybe the 3 admirals are almost invincible cause the counter of the logia isa logia of other admiral, like akainu logia > kizaru logia> aokiji > akainu!
It makes sense, so just haki users can beat them!

Onomatopoeia
May 03, 2009, 04:00 PM
he got owned cuz he was trying to save robin. we dont know how strong he really was, but aokiji was stronger than him. but hes an exeption...

Aokiji went on to be a future admiral and its obvious that the level of strength between the two was ridiculous.

I still don't see why we should assume that all VA's can go on to be admirals. Some are on Garp level and some aren't. Some are uber strong and could wipe out Luffy+Crew and some can't.

Just read Nico Robin's past again. Saul was so awesome.

Lord Rayleigh
May 03, 2009, 04:11 PM
For me, the VA at the supernovae level is totally nonsense. A supernovae is just a pirate that has more than a 100 millions bounty and has never been in the New World. Luffy was already a supernovae after the Alabasta Arc, without his gears.
And even in the last chapters - so, with Luffy at his current level - the MHQ has decided to send only one VA (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/531/02/) with marines troops to capture Luffy whereas the MHQ know Luffy had many times been underestimated and that he had beaten 2 Shichis and Sengoku knows he is Garp's grandson and maybe Dragon'son.
Does it not proove that a VA is supposed to be better than a supernovae ?
Moreover, Lucci was already supposed to deal with ease with the 100 millions supernovae Luffy ; they know what Luffy did to him in Enies Lobby (a old arc now) and they only send one VA after Luffy in ID which is invaded for the first time of his history. It means they are sure a VA is enough to capture Luffy without problem.

The idea that a VA is strong works with the fact that some VA (like Garp) can be near Admiral level (by near, I mean able to fight with them and not be beaten in some seconds like it happened with the supernovae). It is because VA and Admirals are both the elites of the marine. It explains too why Ivankov talked about Shichis, Admirals AND VA when he was referring to the monsters that will be in MHQ. For Ivankov, the 300 millions supernovae Luffy was not enough to go in a place where the invited people were at this level.
Ivankov only knew from what he has seen in newpapers and the pieces of information he got : for him a supernovae at a 300m bounty is not enough to fight people who have the strenght of VA.

Plus, from all what we have seen of the VA in action, they are terribly strong and in the story line, none of the VA has ever been beaten, which is the same with the Admirals. Why do you think Oda has never let them fight in a " death " match with the SH ? Because this is a level that Luffy would be able to reach much later.

It is why seeing the VA only at a supernovae level is for me absurd. If there were only at a supernovae level, the difficulty for the WB pirates in the on-coming war would only be to beat the Shichis and the Admiral : 9 people to beat. Would it be really impossible for the WB pirates to do that ?
For sure, it would not be as the WB pirates must be full of people better and at supernovae level.
From what I read, people often say that WB will for sure die in the WG-WB war. Does it not seem contradictory to see the VA at a supernovae level and think nevertheless that the issue of the war is obvious. People assume globally that the MHQ will be unbeatable with such a postulate : this is totally illogical.

I think people are just overestimating supernovae because Luffy is a supernovae and they thought Luffy should be able to beat a VA soon. They assimilate and generalize the supernovae to Luffy case who is unique among the pirates.

Qc_stryder
May 03, 2009, 04:16 PM
Aokiji went on to be a future admiral and its obvious that the level of strength between the two was ridiculous.

I still don't see why we should assume that all VA's can go on to be admirals. Some are on Garp level and some aren't. Some are uber strong and could wipe out Luffy+Crew and some can't.

Just read Nico Robin's past again. Saul was so awesome.

ofcourse not all VA can become admirals.but if you talk (or write:p) like that, the to whom those this poll shouldbe adressed? the strongest VA or the weakest? we cant say the average (well, we can but...) cuz we dont know what is the average

Organizized
May 03, 2009, 04:37 PM
It's really hard to compare strength in One Piece. I chose silver medalist level because I don't think the average VA can take on Shanks or WB. However, that's the average VA. I'm sure there are a few very close to admiral level (the ones who in due time are going to take admiral rank), just like Aokiji and Akainu were when they were still VA (they wouldn't have advanced if they weren't already as strong as they are). That's the problem with these kind of questions; all vice-admirals can not be equally strong.

Of course, we have the same problem with all of the options in the poll. When it comes to the Yonkou, Whitebeard is the owner of the title "The Strongest Man In The World", while Kaidou is said to have fought evenly against Moria (I still don't believe this is quite correct, but it was stated) who in his turn was beaten by Luffy, a Supernova.

Still, I like to think a mid-tier Vice Admiral can take on and beat a mid-tier supernova, while they have to let the admirals take on the yonkou if there's gonna be a one-on-one fight.

Lord Rayleigh
May 03, 2009, 04:39 PM
ofcourse not all VA can become admirals.but if you talk (or write:p) like that, the to whom those this poll shouldbe adressed? the strongest VA or the weakest? we cant say the average (well, we can but...) cuz we dont know what is the average
I think they are not too many gap among the VA and only a few exceptions. They are all Vice-Admiral and all recognized by the marine troops as such. I think they are all able to fight a certain time with an Admiral and I think that physically, the VA are able to fight seriously with Admirals but one of the differences come to the fact that Admirals have in plus their logia power who do the difference.
It means Admirals gather VA's level + logia power. It is the upgrade they have. It is why someone like Garp, able to deal with Rayleigh, himself able to deal with Kizaru, is not an Admiral. For example what happened with Morgan, injuring Garp because he was not concentrated at all, will never happened with the Admirals. We have already seen Kizaru being touched by attacks that he did not see : the Apoo attack would have mean the lost of Kizaru's arm if he had not been a logia user. This is the advantage of the Admiral among the category of the elite marines.
Nevertheless, I have to admit that for me, Garp is a unique one and the manga has confirmed it : he is the only one who has a unique friendship with Sengoku and is so relaxed with the superiors, the one who is with the headmaster of the MHQ. It is why he must be about to fight seriously against an admiral with his logia powers.
So, they are only some exceptions among the VA (Garp, the ex Kuzan) but with the rest of the VA, they all should be at similar levels. And from what we have seen of them, they are supposed to be fucking strong and the MHQ is totally confident in their capacities.

Qc_stryder
May 03, 2009, 05:08 PM
ya but judging strengh in one piece is almost imposible because of the DFs and logias. 1 could easily beat 2 while 2 can easily beat 3 who can easily beat 1. so one person beating another who is considered strong doesnt make him strong as he could be beaten by a weaker person. but ofcourse this concept doesnt apply to every case

Onomatopoeia
May 03, 2009, 05:10 PM
For me, the VA at the supernovae level is totally nonsense. A supernovae is just a pirate that has more than a 100 millions bounty and has never been in the New World. Luffy was already a supernovae after the Alabasta Arc, without his gears.
And even in the last chapters - so, with Luffy at his current level - the MHQ has decided to send only one VA (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/531/02/) with marines troops to capture Luffy whereas the MHQ know Luffy had many times been underestimated and that he had beaten 2 Shichis and Sengoku knows he is Garp's grandson and maybe Dragon'son.
Does it not proove that a VA is supposed to be better than a supernovae ?
Moreover, Lucci was already supposed to deal with ease with the 100 millions supernovae Luffy ; they know what Luffy did to him in Enies Lobby (a old arc now) and they only send one VA after Luffy in ID which is invaded for the first time of his history. It means they are sure a VA is enough to capture Luffy without problem.


We don't even know if he's a VA. Its pure speculation on your part he could be an RA just as well as a VA(unless I'm missing something). He was also quite quickly told off by Sadi chan and most importantly it's in no way (possible)VA vs Luffy.

It is (Possible) VA+ Impel Down vs Luffy.

Oh and all the marines on these ships (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/531/05/)

Lord Rayleigh
May 03, 2009, 05:19 PM
We don't even know if he's a VA. Its pure speculation on your part he could be an RA just as well as a VA(unless I'm missing something). He was also quite quickly told off by Sadi chan and most importantly it's in no way (possible)VA vs Luffy.

It is (Possible) VA+ Impel Down vs Luffy.

Oh and all the marines on these ships (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/531/05/)

He looks like an Admiral with his suit, his stripes and his special marine helmet : he has the VA appearance.
But in all the cases, he is in charge of capturing Luffy and the marines we see at the entrance were the only ones supposed to enter ID and he was the only special guy among them.
If he was a Rear Admiral, it would be worst : a RA too would be supposed to deal without problem with supernovae. From the power of the RA, we know totally nothing.
And the MHQ sent him to deal with Luffy alone, not with the ID forces who were supposed to be not enough : it is why Sadi explained they would find their way in ID.
And the MHQ considered the ID forces were not enough to deal with this situation whereas they thought a VA would be. It prooves that by sending this guy, they did not underestimate Luffy as they were more underestimating ID forces. For them, ID alone were not enough to deal with Luffy and whereas the help of the LVL 5.5, ID would have been really enough. But they could not have guessed that a LVL 5.5 existed when they underestimated ID forces.

Roarchu
May 03, 2009, 05:21 PM
Weren't Shanks and Mihawk rivals who would always tie or something like that?

anyway, so would Ace be at Silver medalist level? I kno he's not a captain, but he's right hand man to a Yonkou so mby? Mnm i think Ace could handle an admiral

Well, I think once Luffy learns Haki, he'll even be able to beat Kizaru

Lord Rayleigh
May 03, 2009, 05:34 PM
Weren't Shanks and Mihawk rivals who would always tie or something like that?
We do not know about the current strenght of Shanks and Mihawks but we know they used to be swordman rivals.


anyway, so would Ace be at Silver medalist level? I kno he's not a captain, but he's right hand man to a Yonkou so mby? Mnm i think Ace could handle an admiral
Ace is not the right hand of a Yonkou, he is a commander of the fleet of WB. We do not know if WB has kept his old crew - the ones of the Gol D Roger time - who should be a little old and very strong. Indeed, WB, for the moment, is the current oldest pirate, so, his original crew should be old but we have not seen old people yet. I hope an appearance of his original crew later on the manga : so, I hope, they are not retired/died and WB has only a new generation crew.
Ace is not either a silver medalist by definition. And I do not think he would be able to beat a silver medalist as the silver medalist are normally the ones in strenght under the Yonkou themselves and are pirate captains.


Well, I think once Luffy learns Haki, he'll even be able to beat Kizaru
I do not agree with that. Kizaru is able to move at the light speed. None of the supernovae have been able to understand what happened when Kizaru kicked them away. Luffy must be able to follow this speed too : there is not only a problem of intangibility.
Against Garp, Sanji, Franky and Chopper who had experienced the Soru, did not understand either the speed of Garp who managed to punch Luffy.

amizou
May 03, 2009, 09:27 PM
we already saw a supernova who was a RA so i think the level of a supenova is the level of a RA and i think his bounty was 260million so a close one to luffy, from this point we can assume that a supernova is equal to a RA and a VA is equal to a silver medalist and not too far from an Admiral coz an Admiral is still not equal to a yonkou, if so why the WG has to be afraid from this war against WB and they have 3 people who are neerly his level of strength.

For the level between the VA, surely they are not equal but also they are not too far from each other, momonga didnt got owned by hancock, the attack she did against him was a fruit user attack that have to work on anyone who thinks she is beautifull so this attack will work on every man and with his experience he just managed to avoid it, also he was kiling sea kings from the calm belt (the difference from a normal sea king and a calm belt's sea king is enormous) with bare hands and maybe he is the weakest one between all the VA and also he looks the youngest one too. for the people who said they didnt fight against luffy in enyes lobby, its just coz they were sent to destroy eniess lobby and they didnt thing that a supernova with 100million bounty could win against Lucci.

Last point, the only exeptionel one between VA is Garp who i think that he is stronger than an Admiral, when he said i lost some of my force becoz he is old its just what any old man will say, he is just like WB and still in the marines doing his job so i dont think even if he lost some of his force he is weaker than an Admiral, but maybe he doesnt want to be an Admiral coz of his attitude, and in all the marine force i think Garp and Songoku are the only ones who can fight equally to Whitebeard.

one last point is that shishibukays are the ones who their forces are not equal, the marines just need them to intimidate rookies, and the only one i can see aqual to VA level are Mihawk and Blackbeard, Mihawk use to cross swords with shanks but i think shanks is must stronger, Mihwak is known as the strongest swordsman but in the begining of one piece when he asked luffy about his goal which is to be the pirate king he said thats much more difficult than becoming the best swordsman and dont forget that shanks became a yonkou with only one arm and remenber how shanks smiled and said to the first commoner of whitebeard "would you join my crew" it shows the difference of force between the 2 of them. I think i was explaining too much but the point is a VA is at the level of a silver medalist and luffy is still far from that level

kkck
May 03, 2009, 10:26 PM
I for one would rather face kizaru than garp lol.
We have never seen a VA fight at this point so it is kinda hard to imagine how strong they are. Even if they aren't such a big deal, there seem to be quite a few of them so just the numbers would make them a threat to anyone...

beastboy
May 04, 2009, 01:27 PM
WELL, I voted SN but of course I wasn't saying that they're at the level of a low class SN, I was saying that they're at luffy's/kidd's level!!
But there are VA and VA's, the one that was talking about lucci as if he was a god of corse is weaker than Lucci.
Garp is far stronger than luffy, he wasn't giving 1/10 of is strength, because he wanted is grand-son to escape, and he launched cannon balls at higher speed than a cannon, and in the end launched a gigant cannon ball as if it was a baloon!

Qc_stryder
May 04, 2009, 01:40 PM
we know Garp is physicly strong but we dont know how fighting strong he is.

amizou
May 06, 2009, 07:09 PM
if he can do what he did with cannon balls and throwing that giant ball so its obvious he is very strong, and he must be strong in fights too, and he can use haki, remenber when he punched luffy and luffy felt the pain even he is rubber, he called it the punch of love i think, but i'm sure it was haki so he can fight with logia type and damage them, its not gonna surprise me if maybe he would have been an Admiral in the past and when it said he cornored the king pirate many times before, its just to show how strong he is and not like some people said maybe he just chased him but didnt fought him, sometimes when Oda show us few hints to understand we dont have to try and change its meaning same thing for WB when Oda presented him as the strongest guy in the world and not he was the strongest guy but now he is very old, and for VA its obvious too that 3 of them at least must be super strong and neer to Admiral level coz they will be the ones who will take that position if one of them has to retire or die or whatever happen to him and beside those 3 VA there is also Garp so half of them are super strong

Roarchu
May 07, 2009, 03:10 PM
hey idk if thiss been discussed before but does Garp know Rokushiki?

he taught Coby soru right? so he knows it? he can use shigan and all those things?

bittman
May 09, 2009, 09:27 AM
It's possible Roarzan. I also doubt an entire school of martial arts teaching is confined to a set of special non-existent agents.

Well, my vote went towards the Silver Medalists, because that's the closest thing there I can see.

Rookie - far too low, I'm assuming this meant Luffy pre-grand line? If someone with 30mil beri bounty is equal to a VA, then Shanks is ambidextrous.

Yonkou - Too high, since I rate them equal with the 3 Admirals.

Supernova - My vote almost went here, though I'm pretty sure most Supernovas would run from most Vice Admirals. The higher Supernovas (law, luffy and kid) are probably closer to where I would rate VA though.

Silver Medalists - I already count those with approx 300mil bounty at this level. That said, I'm sure Crocodile is a "silver medalist", and he was only revise-rated at 160mil. It's a pretty broad term, but so would be the strength of a VA. Garp is probably near Yonkou level, though most others are probably low-mid-tier Shichibukai level (so, Jimbei/Moria).

Just have to wait for Smoker to be a VA now...

kkck
May 10, 2009, 03:10 AM
I don't see any reason why any current VA would not be as strong or even stronger than any member of the monster trio although I do not see them being stronger than the three of them together. The way ivankov talked about them made it seem as if they were in another league...

BlackHair
May 10, 2009, 07:54 AM
I also rate the VA (average) on top supernova lvl (= kid, law, luffy) and equal to the SHs. I don't how to rate the silver medallists. Average VA means the buster call Vice Admirals not the calibre of Garp, Saulo or the future Admiral lvl (Kuzan, Sakasaki).

Though maybe offtopic, I would like to say sth about the fighting lvl of Yonko and Admiral: Since Gecko said with the help of Oz he would have won the battle with Kaido and seeing him defeated by the SHs+Lola's crew, I expect that Kaido as one of the Yonko on nearest fighting lvl to the VA/SHs. I know the battle was offpanel, but Im just talking about theory. Therefore I'm putting the Admirals as the highest fighting group in the OP universe.

OdaForPresident
May 10, 2009, 12:59 PM
For me its silver medalist level. The fifth strongest guy in the Marines (after the admirals and Sengoku) has to be a VA and the fifth strongest in the new world is a silver medalist. What bugs me is that we've never seen one fight. We've seen Garp do his thing and we had some short snapshot but never a full on battle.

Furthermore, when comparing the marine power structure to the Jonkou. It would be logical that the four strongest men in the marines would match the four strongest in the new world (not saying exact match, just similar levels). Then the people below those two quartets, VA's and silver medalists, should also be quite similar in strength.

BlackHair
May 10, 2009, 01:35 PM
Well, I think once Luffy learns Haki, he'll even be able to beat Kizaru


I do not agree with that. Kizaru is able to move at the light speed. None of the supernovae have been able to understand what happened when Kizaru kicked them away. Luffy must be able to follow this speed too : there is not only a problem of intangibility.
Against Garp, Sanji, Franky and Chopper who had experienced the Soru, did not understand either the speed of Garp who managed to punch Luffy.
I agree with Roarzan. Intangibility can be bypassed with haki, so lets say Luffy has mastered haki. Rayleigh seems to be physically weaker (without haki) than Luffy or lets say physically less fitter (without haki) than Luffy yet he was able to fight Kizaru in close ranch pretty much equal. Luffy as a fellow close ranch fighter shouldn't have any problem fighting him as long Kiz doesn't use his light sword. Anyway my point is, Kizaru even being light, he can't use his speed in close ranch, otherwise he would have kicked Ray away. His speed is only handy in long ranch battles. Remember he used it on Appo, who was far away but not on Ray who was close.

btw I have also similar post, maybe with better explanation (2nd part only) (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1312194&postcount=2)


For me its silver medalist level. The fifth strongest guy in the Marines (after the admirals and Sengoku) has to be a VA and the fifth strongest in the new world is a silver medalist. What bugs me is that we've never seen one fight. We've seen Garp do his thing and we had some short snapshot but never a full on battle. I actually would put Garp equal to the Admirals or better equal to Rayleigh, who was shown just a little weaker than Kizaru. I agree with ur rating for the silver medallists and have no objection to that.

About ur second part, I also agree with that, though if we take Garp and Dragon into consideration we would have 5 ppl on each side.

OdaForPresident
May 10, 2009, 04:25 PM
Yeah Dragon is probably Admiral or Yonkou level, but he's not on either side. At least I don't think he's an ally of any Yonkou.

I don't think Garp is equal to the admirals though, in the past, most definitely yes, now, i'm not so sure. He got old and the admirals got stronger.

bittman
May 10, 2009, 06:44 PM
Yeah I'd agree with that Garp analysis. In his day he might have been an admiral candidate, but nowdays he has aged probably just enough to be still close to admiral strength, but not equal to.

kkck
May 10, 2009, 11:04 PM
Whoever made those rankings should be ashamed of himself, each of them is unbelievably ambiguous and tells extremely little about the actual strength of the individual. A supernova is whoever makes it to the end of the first half of the GL, a silver medallist is whoever loses to roger, WB or another yonkou and the yonkou is whoever manages to control a part of the sea. A rookie is someone who just starts, yet all the supernovas are considered rookies. I would vote other meaning I don't believe any of the presented options has a value.

beastboy
May 11, 2009, 11:47 AM
kkck, I think that youŕe correct, it was better to use personages, like +/- luff power, +/-shanks power +/- aokiji power. etc.

BlackHair
May 11, 2009, 12:52 PM
We are only using the ranking to measure roughly the VA lvl. Though the ratings may be too rough, we have still the option to vote and to describe our decision by a post. Which is common in a forum lol. I don't see a reason to bash this thread.


Rockis are those who are new at the grand line, basically inexperienced and expected weak.
Supernova are rockies who made it to the Red Line, thus they have several fighting experience and are considered stronger than ordinary rockies, who at the same time are also expected to have a chance in the new world.
Silver-medallist - well I would put them somewhere between the (top-)supernova and the last tier lvl.
Yonko and Admiral are in my opinion the top tier lvl in the OP universe.


Of course everything is vague and not-canon, since we haven't seen any average VA in action.

amizou
May 11, 2009, 02:47 PM
Yeah I'd agree with that Garp analysis. In his day he might have been an admiral candidate, but nowdays he has aged probably just enough to be still close to admiral strength, but not equal to.

Dont tell me that Garp is called the hero of the marines just because he is good looking or whatver else, he is the hero of the marines because he cornered Gold D Roger and when it said he cornered him is just to show how strong he is and not just someone from marines is chasing a pirate and the pirate has to flee even if the marine is weaker than him (its not a game so each time a pirate see a marine he has to flee) Roger flee because he knows how strong Garp is and he is well knowen around the world more than the Admirals, if an Admiral were equal to a yonkoo, so why gathere all the marines for just one yankoo, why Grap said the marines cannot take on 2 legends at the same time, maybe Garp has weakened a bit but he still i think stronger than an Admiral if u say not so why Sangokou is the boss and he is same age as Garp, and not one of those Admirals is the boss, if you talk about experience, they look enough old to have experience, WB is the strongest man in the world and he is old some people said maybe because he still a pirate so he didnt loose a lot of power, it goes the same for Garp, the only thing is that Garp is not someone responsible, and we saw this a lot of times

Naisho
May 11, 2009, 10:06 PM
Garp cornered Roger?. He never can catch him. He never can take down him. Cornered in this case equal followed. After 22 gears Rogers crew member easily holds in control Admiral and logia user moreover.

bittman
May 11, 2009, 11:10 PM
@ amizou: It appears you've probably underestimated the admirals, overestimated the Yonkou and further overestimated Garp.

Firstly: we're back on the argument of why there are 6 Shichibukai and 3 admirals required to take on 1 Yonkou. Let me say, this is not just 1 Yonkou, this is THE Yonkou. The man with a crew of something like 1600, protector of ravaged islands across the world, a living legend and the one man believed to be closest to being the pirate king. Whitebeard is beyond the average "Yonkou" in the same way Mihawk is beyond the average Shichibukai. I also go with the idea that the WG is just not taking any chances, battles are unpredictable, they took a very minor chance with the Strawhats in Enies Lobby, and look what happened.

Secondly: Garps "capture" of Roger is now a bit vague, especially given Rayleigh's comment that he gave himself up before he would die.

Third: Garp is many things, but stronger than an admiral? I doubt that. Garp could probably tie with an admiral just as Rayleigh tied with Kizaru, but I'm sure if it had become an all out battle Kizaru would have defeated Rayleigh, the same could be said for Garp. Rayleigh may be "out of practice", but old age means you are beyond your prime, and it's inevitable that the previous generation will be surpassed by the current, that is the law of all shonen mangas.

Even if Garp is highly fit, he is beyond his earlier level of strength. If the decrease is as minimal as you believe, Garp should have taken out 3 of the Yonkou with ease.

goldb
May 12, 2009, 04:29 AM
@bittman: I agree with your post and you've basically pulled the words outta my mouth and typed it :p. People keep wondering why the Marines are gathering all their superstars to take on one Pirate crew? reasons? as bittman correctly said the Marines aren't looking to take any chances; they want Whitebeard taken out so they can show the pirate world that they are still a force to be reckoned with. second of all WB is not just a Yonkou he's the Yonkou; despite his age and I would be correct to guess that he's past his prime but still probably the strongest man in the world as stated, but he has a humoungous crew, the Yellow Grand File stated he had he had a crew of 1,600 and 16 divisions so...are you still wondering?

About Garp, bittman explained this best so read his post. One thing though, I'm still questioning whether or not he was an Admiral before or has only always been Vice, there's still a lot of things about him and other characters that we're judging that we aint found out yet.

Something about the Vice Admirals...( I've heard it mentioned before, so I'm just trying to clear it up)

So far apart from the individual Vices that were introduced( Garp, Tsuru and John Giant, Comil) all the rest we have seen were present at the Buster Call in Enies Lobby. until further notice, that is as we know. In Impel Down we have seen 2 Vice Admirals; Momonga (http://read.mangashare.com/One-Piece/chapter-526/page003.html)who Accompanied Hancock to Ace's cell and Onigumo (http://read.mangashare.com/One-Piece/chapter-539/page014.html); who Ace was handed over to (http://read.mangashare.com/One-Piece/chapter-540/page012.html) by Magellan.

amizou
May 12, 2009, 08:37 PM
@bittman and goldb: i agree about your explanation, i am not sure whether Garp is stronger or not, it may be stronger and it may be not because there is arguments which showed he is weaker than an Admiral and others shows he is stronger, i'm just trying to explain that we still dont know yet, because songoku is the chief Admiral and he has neerly the same age as Garp, And when WB talked with shanks he talked about them as powerfull people, i just see that Garp could have been the chief Admiral or an Admiral if he were more responsible.

lets try to see it tahis way:
in the past Garp = WB = Roger (i mean they were nearly equal because if roger has to flee from Garp he surely knows that he will have problems fighting him even if he is a bit stronger)
in the present Garp = WB both of them become old and both of them still on the sea, while WB is the strongest man untill now and Garp still close to his level.
i dont think than one Admiral could be a match for WB so an Admiral can not be a match for Garp.
Ralyech stoped an Admiral and people saying that the Admiral could win if they continued the fight but from what i saw, ralyech had a small advantage and was thinking to hold him and help the others and Kizaru was angry because he looked down to him, and dont forget that ralyech wasn't un the job since Roger died so he must lost more of his power than WB or Garp have lost.

the point is that we have 9 vice admirals, at least 3 of them has to be equal or very close to Admiral level so they can succeed them + Garp so 4 of them are super powerfull i dont know about the others but i think they are pretty strong too

goldb
May 13, 2009, 05:32 AM
...i just see that Garp could have been the chief Admiral or an Admiral if he were more responsible.


you know I've also pointed this out in the past; we'll just have to wait and see what Oda explains about Garp and Sengoku cos from what WB says (http://read.mangashare.com/One-Piece/chapter-434/page008.html) to Shanks about Garp and others makes it seem as if Garp was top dog back in the day and until proven otherwise and knowing how irresponsible his family is, i would say he would be an Admiral or something if it wasn't for is lack of responsibility.


....Ralyech stoped an Admiral and people saying that the Admiral could win if they continued the fight but from what i saw, ralyech had a small advantage and was thinking to hold him and help the others and Kizaru was angry because he looked down to him, and dont forget that ralyech wasn't un the job since Roger died so he must lost more of his power than WB or Garp have lost.

Remember this (http://read.mangashare.com/One-Piece/chapter-501/page003.html)

Lord Rayleigh
May 30, 2009, 12:38 PM
Lucci is stronger than most of the admirals. That at least is obvious.
Sorry, but this is not obvious. From what we have seen of the V-A, it is not possible to have such a radical point of view. Even a R-A, the rank under the V-A, has become a supernovae you know.


If each vice-admiral were that strong, than the number of pirates in the sea would be declining instead of growing.
A quote of myself to help my future explanation.

From the number of V-A that has been revealed, we know they were at least 6-7 at the Ohara Buster Call time (the 5 of the Buster Call, Haguar D. Sauro (http://www.volonte-d.com/perso/images/sauro.jpg) and Garp who I think was already a V-A at this time).
From what we have seen of active V-A, there are Garp, John Giant (http://www.volonte-d.com/perso/images/giant.jpg),Tsuru (http://www.volonte-d.com/perso/images/tsuru.jpg), Komil (http://www.volonte-d.com/perso/images/komil.jpg), and the 5 ones of the Enies Lobby Buster Call, and maybe this one (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/531/02/).So, they are at least 9 active V-A at the actual time
For the moment, it does not make a high number of V-A. Just 3 times more than the Admirals. It is not contradictory to see the number of pirates growing with that, knowing what Gol D. Roger did at his execution. Moreover, Tsuru and Komil are resident in they marine base : Tsuru stays in Mariejoa and Komil in the G-2 base.


Don't take Lucci lightly. Even Kuma and the Buster Call Vice Admiral were speaking highly of him. I would put Lucci equal to any average VA.
Ao Kiji take the SH lightly whereas it was not even a famous crew yet ; moreover, Ao Kiji is an admiral, does that mean he is less strong than the SH ? And he is still totally at a different level from the level of our heroes that became really stronger than they were after the Alabasta Arc. Recognizing someone'strenght does not mean you are less strong.

BlackHair
May 30, 2009, 02:18 PM
Ao Kiji take the SH lightly whereas it was not even a famous crew yet ; moreover, Ao Kiji is an admiral, does that mean he is less strong than the SH ? And he is still totally at a different level from the level of our heroes that became really stronger than they were after the Alabasta Arc. Recognizing someone'strenght does not mean you are less strong.I don't understand in what context you are talking about.

AoKiji was seeing the SHs as a threat for the WG (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/320/02/). While Kuma was highly speaking of him in term of fighting power (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/474/14/) (Panel5). Same with Vice Admiral Dobberman (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/422/04/) (Panel 5). There is a difference in being dangerous as in threat and being dangerous as in fighting power (strong).

Razh
May 30, 2009, 03:36 PM
Sorry, but this is not obvious. From what we have seen of the V-A, it is not possible to have such a radical point of view. Even a R-A, the rank under the V-A, has become a supernovae you know.

Drake is one man, not a rule. Same goes for Smoker. Not every captain was as strong as him. Besides, Drake he has a nasty zoan devil fruit. Majority of admirals don't have devil fruits. Well, I think that they don't, but it's probably true. They are obviously strong and experienced fighters.

But I don't understand how someone can underestimate Lucci that much. It's almost like he was some opponent from East Blue. In manga timeline, it couldn't have been more than a few weeks.

Kuma obviously thinks highly of Rob Lucci. And Lucci is obviously stronger than those 5 admirals that were at Enies Lobby.
So what, Momonga killed a sea king. Big deal. So did T-Bone. Lucci's DF empowered Rankyaku cuts through steel.

There is no admiral level of strength. Some are stronger and some are weaker. Their primary mission is to command, not to engage in battles personally. That's why some of them may excel at strategic thinking for example, but are weak in battle.
In this type of manga, any one of them can probably fight, but I'll be damned to hell if Lucci isn't stronger than most of them.
The strongest CP9 member in history. Since when did CP9 become such a joke?

Lord Rayleigh
May 30, 2009, 04:47 PM
AoKiji was seeing the SHs as a threat for the WG (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/320/02/).
Not only in term of threat but in fighting power too. If I add this panel (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/320/03/), it will proove that. Here, it is obvious the growth he talked is in term of fighting power. Indeed, the first bounty has been given as a consequence of the fights which happened in East Blue. Moreover, the fact that Ao Kiji uses the words " fighting pirates ", " prey " should definitely confirm that.


While Kuma was highly speaking of him in term of fighting power (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/474/14/) (Panel5). Same with Vice Admiral Dobberman (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/422/04/) (Panel 5). There is a difference in being dangerous as in threat and being dangerous as in fighting power (strong).
I agree it was about fighting power. First, I think I can say you will agree that Kuma is stronger than Lucci. So, there is a first conclusion to that :
Recognizing someone'strenght does not mean you are less strong.
The V-A in the manga only said that with Lucci'strenght, there was no need for the marines to interfere between CP9 and SHs. That does not mean he was afraid of such a power, or something like that, which would seem to proove a V-A is less strong than Lucci. So, we cannot conclude anything from that except that Lucci was strong.



Drake is one man, not a rule. Same goes for Smoker. Not every captain was as strong as him. Besides, Drake he has a nasty zoan devil fruit. Majority of admirals don't have devil fruits. Well, I think that they don't, but it's probably true. They are obviously strong and experienced fighters.
I recognize Smoker is an exception for a captain rank : Smoker should have a better rank. But here, we talked about vice-admiral rank, that means a rank that must be recognized, just under the admiral. The fact that some marines are not as recognized as they should be, does not mean that the vice-admirals do not deserve their rank. I think we could admit that there is more possibility for a marine to have a rank worse than it should be for his fighting level, than a vice-admiral that does not fit with his position. The only weak vice-admiral could be Tsuru, as she is only giving orders from Mariejoa and not doing missions, what all the others vice-admirals do.


But I don't understand how someone can underestimate Lucci that much. It's almost like he was some opponent from East Blue. In manga timeline, it couldn't have been more than a few weeks.
I do not underestimate Lucci, I know he is pretty strong, the better agent of the CP9's history. I have seen how he fights but I think the Vice-Admirals are strong people, just under the admirals. I think the marines rely a lot on the vice-admirals to protect the stability of the world. The admirals are not enough to fight against the strong opponents of the WG : they cannot be everywhere as they are just three and cannot deal with all the problems. For me, the vice-admirals are the guys hidden behind the admirals'shadows.


Kuma obviously thinks highly of Rob Lucci. And Lucci is obviously stronger than those 5 admirals that were at Enies Lobby.
So what, Momonga killed a sea king. Big deal. So did T-Bone. Lucci's DF empowered Rankyaku cuts through steel.
Obviously stronger, not ; see what I answer to blackhair in this same post, above. And Kuma thinks highly of all the SHs - remember the sentence in the one he evoked Dragon - , and I do not think all the SHs are able to beat the 5 vice-admirals you are talking about.
A lot of people can do these things as you said, but some can do better. Among these guys, I think you could not said that Momonga has shown all his abilities/potential whereas T-Bone used his better attack against Zoro. That is the difference between them : for T-Bone, it was his best level, whereas for Momonga it is the minimum he can do. We have seen the better of Lucci, let's wait for the better of a vice-admiral, which has never been done yet.


There is no admiral level of strength. Some are stronger and some are weaker. Their primary mission is to command, not to engage in battles personally. That's why some of them may excel at strategic thinking for example, but are weak in battle.
In this type of manga, any one of them can probably fight, but I'll be damned to hell if Lucci isn't stronger than most of them.
The strongest CP9 member in history. Since when did CP9 become such a joke?
The vice-admirals are the elite of the marine, just under the admiral position. I think only the best of the marines can integrate these army corps. And by best, the strenght is taken into account.
I think your postulate about strong vice-admirals and weak ones is based on what you have seen with the other ranks of the marines and maybe on the reality of our world.
Morgan is useless whereas Smoker is strong. But as I have already said, it is a comparaison among the captains.
I think a vice-admiral rank is not deserved for everyone, whereas a captain rank shoud more be. After all, Morgan was only promoted captain because he was supposed to have captured/beat a 16 million bounty. The weak vice-admiral could be Tsuru - I repeat myself again - because she just works to organize the marine army, and she is the only one that does that.
Do not forget either that the OP universe is a wild world where every marine must be strong to protect the world (balance) : I quote John Giant :p but I totally agree. So, among the marine organization, managing to climb to vice-admiral rank is unbelievable, and something that must be based on missions with an ideology that fits of sorts with the marine elite corp. This is definitely not the same thing in our world : in the missions, the elite corp of officiers are not in the field.

Razh
May 30, 2009, 04:57 PM
The problem is, you are guessing too much. Your argument about difference in the real world doesn't stand, because Oda draws inspiration from the real world.
If WG had so many strong people under it, which is to say that majority of vice-admirals is around the level of a Shichibukai, then there would be no need to maintain World Balance.

Lord Rayleigh
May 30, 2009, 05:28 PM
The problem is, you are guessing too much. Your argument about difference in the real world doesn't stand, because Oda draws inspiration from the real world.
Of course, every mangaka draws inspiration from the real world, and especially from the of the society. But that does not mean everything always works in the same manner. This is why a manga can be at a very distant degree of reality.


If WG had so many strong people under it, which is to say that majority of vice-admirals is around the level of a Shichibukai, then there would be no need to maintain World Balance.
You must not forget that the world balance is not working only with the three great powers. Without the ones under them, the stability of the world would not work either : the threats for the world are not only the Yonkous.
As there is a strong global stability - thanks to the under ones - from now on, the stability of the OP universe can only be disturb by the strongests among the strongests, the three great powers that are, by definition, the only ones with the power to modify the world stability of the under ones.
So, the marines under the admirals are the ones that have created and work for the strong global stability and the three great powers are the ones that maintain their own stability between them to not disturb the global one as their are super strong. That means, without the under ones, the world stability that the three powers are supposed to maintain would not even exist.
That is how I have understood the principe of the three great powers and the world balance. The three greats powers (Admirals, Shichibukais, Yonkous) counteract themselves to not disturb the global stability and intervene sometimes when there is a great threat that the under ones cannot deal with.

BlackHair
May 30, 2009, 07:06 PM
Not only in term of threat but in fighting power too. If I add this panel (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/320/03/), it will proove that. Here, it is obvious the growth he talked is in term of fighting power. Indeed, the first bounty has been given as a consequence of the fights which happened in East Blue. Moreover, the fact that Ao Kiji uses the words " fighting pirates ", " prey " should definitely confirm that. AoKiji was talking about the future threat (http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/6518/12074123.jpg) they will represent, not that at the moment. Reading the later events, which are EL, SA, defeating 2 Shichi and ID, it is clear that AoKiji was right.

Also just to make my point clear. I put Lucci equal to the average VA not above or below.

I would put Lucci equal to any average VA.


Anyway, claims such as putting Lucci below (Lord Rayleigh), equal (Blackhair) or above (Razh) the VA is baseless to begin with. We don't have any actual facts to support our view. At this moment it is just baseless claims based on our opinion, nothing more. There is no need for a long discussion. That said I won't post anymore regarding this matter. I have no intention to be rude or anything, it is just I don't see a future in this matter, hence just wasted time. I hope u understand my decision :)

Lord Rayleigh
May 31, 2009, 05:45 AM
AoKiji was talking about the future threat (http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/6518/12074123.jpg) they will represent, not that at the moment. Reading the later events, which are EL, SA, defeating 2 Shichi and ID, it is clear that AoKiji was right.
I quote the words of Ao Kiji of the picture : " In the time bewteen the issuing of the first bounty on a member of your party to the present time, your growth, so to say, has been quite extraordinary " (*)
He talks about fighting power and from that notice, he concludes " I am concerned with the future holds once your growth tired of your prey and search for a new game ".
From that (*), he sees them as a future threat but it is because he noticed their fighting power has grown.



Also just to make my point clear. I put Lucci equal to the average VA not above or below.
I knew :D



Anyway, claims such as putting Lucci below (Lord Rayleigh), equal (Blackhair) or above (Razh) the VA is baseless to begin with. We don't have any actual facts to support our view. At this moment it is just baseless claims based on our opinion, nothing more. There is no need for a long discussion. That said I won't post anymore regarding this matter. I have no intention to be rude or anything, it is just I don't see a future in this matter, hence just wasted time. I hope u understand my decision :)
Right. Let's wait.
But I have some facts to support my view, I did not begin to think like that from nothing. I made my point of view with what I have seen of some vice-admirals (Ao Kiji, Sauro, Garp even if they are elite among the V-A), the fact that the marine is an organization based on strenght, and the fact that the MHQ send only a V-A (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/531/02/) (I doubt he is inferior to a V-A : it would be worse for Razh and you) and his troops to capture Luffy in ID whereas they know he had beaten 2 Shichi and Lucci.
Anyway, I am sure Luffy and the SH will have to fight a V-A later.

BlackHair
May 31, 2009, 04:07 PM
But I have some facts to support my view [..]No u don't have facts and that's my point. You are guessing too much, like we all.

Anyway, we have no proof or whatsoever that this guy is an VA. The marine fleet outside where sent by the WG to protect the prison from WB's attack, not to capture Luffy! Knowing WB might come, a Vice Admiral probably wouldn't attend to a mere 300M-man hunting. So I personally doubt that this guy is a VA.

Also even if he was a Vice-Admiral, I don't see how this would support ur theory. It's not like he went alone after Luffy, he had several marines with him. So how exactly puts that the VA above Lucci?

Just like I said, we don't have facts :D

Sachsenhesse
May 31, 2009, 06:09 PM
What a discussion.

I would say Luccis strength is the strength of a Vize-Admiral. That rank is so... screwed up. I mean we seen 2 marines in that rank "fighting". Garp what he showed after enies lobby and Kuzan back on Ohara. Garp would kick Luccis ass like nothing, and kuzan is now an admiral...

You cant really draw a line between admiral and vizeadiral, these are all monsters, but between the vizes i think there is a really big gap from strongest to weakest.

amizou
May 31, 2009, 10:09 PM
its true that it maybe a gap between the strongest till the weakest but if u say VA r weaker than shishibukai, luffy already beat 2 of them and a Rare VA is a super nova like luffy so its obvious a VA must be stronger, also the WG send a VA to protect ID or to capture luffy it means they r really strong becoz protecting ID from WB is not that simple or escorting Ace from ID to the execution place is not that simple because they know WB should attack at any moment but they only send a VA to bring him and not an Admiral so they know that he can fulfill his duty even with a WB attack and dont forget that 3 of the VA are going to be promoted to Admirals so they must have neerly the same level, with all this facts we can conclude that at least 5 from the 9 VA are super strong the rest maybe they r luffy level or even weaker but it stills 5 of them are monsters

Onomatopoeia
May 31, 2009, 11:29 PM
Right. Let's wait.
But I have some facts to support my view, I did not begin to think like that from nothing. I made my point of view with what I have seen of some vice-admirals (Ao Kiji, Sauro, Garp even if they are elite among the V-A), the fact that the marine is an organization based on strenght, and the fact that the MHQ send only a V-A (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/531/02/) (I doubt he is inferior to a V-A : it would be worse for Razh and you) and his troops to capture Luffy in ID whereas they know he had beaten 2 Shichi and Lucci.
Anyway, I am sure Luffy and the SH will have to fight a V-A later.
Yes they sent a VA as BACKUP for ID, this is based off of the fact that the VA didn't argue with Sadi chan, however, if he was given orders to enter into ID with the marines and himself and to capture Luffy by themselves then he would argue with Sadi. Simply because his orders would contradict her orders.

But he didn't because his orders likely stated that he would enter ID as backup(if it is even a VA). Which basicly means that the WG was paranoid and decided to send more backup to ID because they didn't want the same thing to happen again like in EL.

Which means just because they sent a possible VA doesn't mean that they expected him to take on Luffy by himself but as backup.

See that's a perfectly plausible second opinion on the matter.

JC123
May 31, 2009, 11:39 PM
For the love of Mike people...

This is honestly like saying the CIA and the military have the same ranks. No, they don't, they have their own ranking systems.

Fukurou gave us an impression of Lucci's strength which is acknowledged by the Marines as a VERY strong person. But VA level? Even Colonel Smoker got stronger. But comparing the two is really difficult since it just isn't going to happen, where a VA and a government operative are going to fight. Though, given the fact that Lucci DID defeat a VA already, it's going to be good to see what happens there.

Onomatopoeia
May 31, 2009, 11:43 PM
For the love of Mike people...

This is honestly like saying the CIA and the military have the same ranks. No, they don't, they have their own ranking systems.

Fukurou gave us an impression of Lucci's strength which is acknowledged by the Marines as a VERY strong person. But VA level? Even Colonel Smoker got stronger. But comparing the two is really difficult since it just isn't going to happen, where a VA and a government operative are going to fight. Though, given the fact that Lucci DID defeat a VA already, it's going to be good to see what happens there.

I'm not sure I follow. Did I miss something?

Lord Rayleigh
June 01, 2009, 04:58 AM
Anyway, we have no proof or whatsoever that this guy is an VA. The marine fleet outside where sent by the WG to protect the prison from WB's attack, not to capture Luffy! Knowing WB might come, a Vice Admiral probably wouldn't attend to a mere 300M-man hunting. So I personally doubt that this guy is a VA.
That is the right, the marine fleet outside is here to protect the prison before the " escort team " arrives. Just a precision for everyone, we must not confuse the " escort team ", which is the equivalent of a buster call that must bring Ace to MHQ and this marine fleet, that was around ID to protect it from a possible attack : there are not the same fleet.
From his appearance, we can say that this guy belongs to the admiral officers (which is constitued of the 3 Admirals, the vice-admirals, the rear-admirals etc ...). The marine fleet around ID is here to protect ID from whatever attack that may come, a WB attack or not. As Luffy went to ID and there is a riot, the marine fleet decided to send one of his admiral officers to deal with Luffy. This admiral officer leads marine troops and is supposed to beat Luffy with his marines. I think we must agree about that.


Also even if he was a Vice-Admiral, I don't see how this would support ur theory. It's not like he went alone after Luffy, he had several marines with him. So how exactly puts that the VA above Lucci?
Everybody know Luffy beat Lucci. So, the admiral officer think he is able to do with his marines better than Lucci : you should agree with that postulate.
During the EL attack, marines officiers attack the SHs (except Luffy that was still fighting Lucci) and they did not manage to beat them. It was said in the manga they were 200 Captains and Commanders. From what I saw with this admiral officer, he does not lead a marine team of Captains/Commanders but a marine team with various ranks (a lot of non officers, maybe sergents) and he is supposed to do against a normal Luffy what thousands of colonel could not have done against tired SHs (Zoro, Nami, Sanji, Franky had just beaten their CP9 opponent, Robin had been beaten by Spandam, only Usopp was in a good state). I think the marine team if we do not count the admiral officer is less strong than this army of colonel ; nevertheless, it is supposed to capture Luffy. So, I think we can say that the main strenght in that admiral officier team is the admiral officer itself. So, an admiral officer thought he is enough with some marines that are not that strong to beat Luffy whereas he should know what Luffy already managed to do (Lucci and 2 Shichibukai, the PX). Anyway, as I said he knows that Luffy's level is better than Lucci's, it was spread all over the world with newspapers. So, this marine officer must be pretty strong. If he is not a V-A, it means a R-A or some less high rank is supposed to be better than Luffy. That is my point.


Just like I said, we don't have facts :D
Not direct facts but I used indirect facts to make a reasoning as you can see above.

dtyk
June 01, 2009, 05:59 AM
Speaking of which, why did the VA's not take part in capturing Luffy in Enies Lobby?

Giving "Lucci is there to deal with Luffy, and we do our job" seems like a flawed excuse.

After Lucci's fall, why didn't the VA personally come to intervene? (At least the "stronger" VA's?)

Lord Rayleigh
June 01, 2009, 08:43 AM
Speaking of which, why did the VA's not take part in capturing Luffy in Enies Lobby?
First of all, because Luffy and Lucci was already fighting. As the V-A said, Lucci was supposed to be enough to deal with Luffy because he was recognized as a viable strenght of the WG. Moreover, if the marines had interfered, they would have suffered the damages of the fight. And do not forget that the Buster Call was supposed to destroy all EL to kill all the pirates and the rebels that invaded it, not to directly go into the battle. So, the V-As, leading the Buster Call had to give orders to destroy cleanly EL : as you see here (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/426/04/) for example, there was a strategy improvised to achieve.


Giving "Lucci is there to deal with Luffy, and we do our job" seems like a flawed excuse.
Excuse-me but this is exactly what the V-A said himself : Rob Lucci is enough to deal with SH Luffy, we do not need to intervene. Otherwise, it is obvious they would have intervened with Luffy.


After Lucci's fall, why didn't the VA personally come to intervene? (At least the "stronger" VA's?)
They decided to interefere when they learn Rob Lucci lost. They had a fire power that can destroy an island, and that was enough to destroy all of the SHs. So, they decided to use it.
Indeed, when they destroyed the first prop where Luffy was with Lucci, Luffy was supposed to die but Robin saved her at the last time with her power ; when they destroyed the bridge of hesitation on the one all the SHs were, it was supposed to kill all of them but they survived because they went on the Merry-Go. In this two cases, they avoid the attacks by a narrow margin and with luck ; so, the V-A were not supposed to interfere themselves to kill them.
After that, the V-A could not have interfered because of what Sanji had done, which has something to do with the flow, the stream of the water inside the EL archipelago.

zelllogan
June 01, 2009, 09:44 AM
How can you ask a question as "At what level do you think V-A are ?" when there are people as different as Garp, Tsuru, Momonga and the 4 other useless ones in EL ?

For what we saw, to become a vice-admiral, all you need is being experimented, being a leadership figure. Strenght was never shown as a requirement to become a VC. I don't think that Tsuru is one hell of a fighter.

kkck
June 01, 2009, 10:48 AM
We have never seen a VA fight though(except when garp beated luffy up). There could be some variation to their strength but for all we know they could actually be comparable to admirals(garp could be...). In any case I would expect each of them to at the very least be comparable to lucci(as a minimum...)

Razh
June 01, 2009, 11:52 AM
So, you're saying Lucci is just as strong as the weakest vice admiral? Because that doesn't make any sense. CP9 agents are trained to take part in the most dangerous of missions and they are able to use techniques which most people can only dream of doing. Lucci is the strongest CP9 agent in the history of CP9.

Anyway, I'll stick to my opinion that Lucci is stronger than most of the admirals.

kkck
June 01, 2009, 12:07 PM
So, you're saying Lucci is just as strong as the weakest vice admiral? Because that doesn't make any sense. CP9 agents are trained to take part in the most dangerous of missions and they are able to use techniques which most people can only dream of doing. Lucci is the strongest CP9 agent in the history of CP9.

Anyway, I'll stick to my opinion that Lucci is stronger than most of the admirals.

CP9 might be trained to do insanely dangerous missions but VA are the marines third(or second) most powerful force and asset. Individual ranks are pretty much meaningless but I do think the VA as a whole should be seen at the very least like that. Ivankow was a level 5 prisoner and revolutionary, yet he appeared respectful and even fearful of the VA strength. Thats gotta mean something IMO.

BlackHair
June 01, 2009, 12:18 PM
So, this marine officer must be pretty strong. If he is not a V-A, it means a R-A or some less high rank is supposed to be better than Luffy. That is my point.There is a flaw in your logic: As Ono (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1377188&postcount=51) already said, they were sent as a BACKUP. He probably must have though he would fight Luffy, alongside the impel down force. So you don't really have to be stronger than Luffy if u would fight him with the advantage in manpower. Not to mention u still have no proof that this guy is VA or RA.

Anyway we still haven't seen a VA in action, like mentioned several times now. The only one was Saulo. Garp and Kuzan were far from serious. Also those two are a special case. The one is now a admiral and the other a acknowledge legend.



For what we saw, to become a vice-admiral, all you need is being experimented, being a leadership figure. Strenght was never shown as a requirement to become a VC. I don't think that Tsuru is one hell of a fighter.OP is a shounen (elements: fighting, power) manga. The Marine is a force of WG which represents power. So plz stop comparing it with real life logic. Smoker himself used power (Panel 3) (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/212/16/) to describe the higher ranks. Though I agree, he didn't mentioned it as the only requirement. In Tsuru's case, she was introduced as a tactician (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/234/02/). While for example the Buster Call VA were not. We have no reason to believe that the VA are pushover or only commanding figures.

My last point in this post is regarding CP9. They may have been a assassin group, but as far as we know they only operated in the first half of the grand line. While we have all reason to believe that the VA mostly operate in the NW, where a higher fighting level is required.

kkck
June 01, 2009, 12:40 PM
I did noy put the VA in lucci's league, I suggested they should be at the very least at that level. That would imply the VA should be stronger than lucci.....

BlackHair
June 01, 2009, 12:50 PM
I did noy put the VA in lucci's league, I suggested they should be at the very least at that level. That would imply the VA should be stronger than lucci.....I see, sry I misread ur posts. I guess I have a different opinion. :D

Razh
June 01, 2009, 01:34 PM
OP is a shounen (elements: fighting, power) manga. The Marine is a force of WG which represents power. So plz stop comparing it with real life logic. Smoker himself used power (Panel 3) (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/212/16/) to describe the higher ranks. Though I agree, he didn't mentioned it as the only requirement.


Smoker said that some of them are as strong as him. He didn't really describe anything.

Also, we can't avoid comparing it with real life logic. This may be a shonen, but it has a nice dose of reality in it. So it's probably not a stretch to assume that some admirals are good tacticians but not so good in close combat. Some of them may be swordsmen, some of them may be brawlers and some of them could just carry a gun. A lot of them probably don't even fight that much.

That's why I believe that Lucci who is a highly trained killer, has zoan and is a Rokushiki master, is stronger than most of the admirals, but I agree that there are probably vice-admirals who are stronger than him.

Also, kkck, you may assume that CP9 doesn't operate in New World, but we don't know that.
I assume that WG's number one secret police division operates in the entire world.

Lord Rayleigh
June 01, 2009, 02:30 PM
There is a flaw in your logic: As Ono (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1377188&postcount=51) already said, they were sent as a BACKUP. He probably must have though he would fight Luffy, alongside the impel down force. So you don't really have to be stronger than Luffy if u would fight him with the advantage in manpower. Not to mention u still have no proof that this guy is VA or RA.
He clearly said him and his marines will defeat SH Luffy upon the name of MHQ. The " we " was totally obvious : it is him and his marines : " we move into the goal [...] ", the ID troops already are in ID.
And the " upon the name of MHQ " closes the discussion : they will defeat Luffy upon the name of MHQ, alone, and the ID troops fight upon the name of ID, alone.
Moreover, Sadi explained herself they will not find their way in ID : that means again they were supposed to hunt for Luffy alone. I think that should conclude the backup idea.
Even if we do not know his rank, we know he is not an admiral and that he is convinced to be able to defeat our heroe with the marine troops. As I already said, he is probably the only recognized fighter in these troops (see my old post) and I mean by strong at a level that could be recognized by someone like Inazuma or eventually at a level able to deal with supernovae easily.


How can you ask a question as "At what level do you think V-A are ?" when there are people as different as Garp, Tsuru, Momonga and the 4 other useless ones in EL ?
You do not really know the abilities of the 5 V-A that were leading the Buster Call but from what I have seen, only two person managed to escape Boa's power : Luffy probably with the fact he is caoutchouc and cannot turn into rock because of his DF, and Momonga only by himself ; a power of someone that has been recognized as really strong by Sengoku himself. So, I think Momonga is strong.
And you said useless because they did not fight directly but as I already said they nearly managed to kill the SHs with the fire power. Who could have predicted that a boat that theorically cannot float would have sail to EL and saved by himself the SHs ? After that, the V-A did not have an opportunity to fight against the SHs because Sanji had done something with the stream/current of the water on the EL archipelago : that is why the Buster Call did not hunt for the SHs pirates.


Strenght was never shown as a requirement to become a VC. I don't think that Tsuru is one hell of a fighter.
It is normal that Tsuru does not seem a fighter as she is the one giving orders from Mariejoa with Sengoku : she does not do missions whereas all the others V-A shown do. And it seems normal that the only ones giving orders to the marines are high rank ; so, it is fine that they gave Tsuru a V-A rank. But you cannot compare her with the V-A that are sailing on the seas.


Smoker said that some of them are as strong as him. He didn't really describe anything.
Well, that means that they are people as strong as Smoker, who himself should be around the level of Ace from what we have seen during the Alabasta Arc.

Razh
June 01, 2009, 02:38 PM
Well, that means that they are people as strong as Smoker, who himself should be around the level of Ace from what we have seen during the Alabasta Arc.

Again, it's not they, it's some of them.

kkck
June 01, 2009, 02:39 PM
Also, kkck, you may assume that CP9 doesn't operate in New World, but we don't know that.
I assume that WG's number one secret police division operates in the entire world.
What are you talking about? When did I ever said anything about that? I have no idea of what your point is, I never mentioned anything about as to where the CP9 jurisdiction is(if anything it should be wherever they are needed....).

Lord Rayleigh
June 01, 2009, 02:45 PM
Again, it's not they, it's some of them.
Indeed but it was what I meant.

braindamage351
June 01, 2009, 02:53 PM
The vice admirals are probably generally on par with the supernovas, with some being closer to admiral level (since there's a limit of 3). Garp would rapestomp Lucci, and Smoker is basically a low-end shichibukai (he's not vice admiral, but I seriously doubt any of them are much stronger than him). The admirals aren't just logias, they're super logias. Think about it, if one admiral can pwn all 11 supernovas, it would be ridiculous if vice admirals weren't on par with at least one supernova.

Lord Rayleigh
June 01, 2009, 03:20 PM
Think about it, if one admiral can pwn all 11 supernovas, it would be ridiculous if vice admirals weren't on par with at least one supernova.
You made a good point here. I would add a V-A must be able to defeat without trouble a supernovae.

When Oda said there was a large number of silver-medalists all over the world (especially the NW I think), how the marine would deal with all the pirates if the admirals are " focused " on yonkous, and the V-A - the second strongest rank in the marine - have difficulty to beat a supernovae, a middle-level among the pirates ?
We must be realistic. There must be some level between the supernovae level and the yonkou level - and especially around the silver-medalists - among the marines : that is for me, the V-A. Otherwise, the marine would be useless with so little strong fighters.
Moreover, as Rayleigh said, the NW is getting each day crazier : so, the marine must be able to withstand all the different kinds of pirates with all the different kinds of ranks.
If the V-A are around supernovae, the military strenght of the marine would nearly only be based on the admirals because the V-A - and by consequence, the other inferior ranks - would not be a viable military strenght ; that is pure nonsense for me. The admirals cannot solve all the important problems. It is unthinkable in the OP universe : just look at the speech of John Giant.

kkck
June 01, 2009, 03:36 PM
The vice admirals are probably generally on par with the supernovas, with some being closer to admiral level (since there's a limit of 3). Garp would rapestomp Lucci, and Smoker is basically a low-end shichibukai (he's not vice admiral, but I seriously doubt any of them are much stronger than him). The admirals aren't just logias, they're super logias. Think about it, if one admiral can pwn all 11 supernovas, it would be ridiculous if vice admirals weren't on par with at least one supernova.

MMmnnnn I am inclined to believe the VA should be stronger. Logically speaking a supernova is merely a rookie pirate. IMO it would not make sense that the marines second greatest asset after the admirals have the fighting capacity of mere rookies. How would the marines handle non-rookie pirates(not to mention what would be a silver medallist or a yonkou) if the top marines are just on the level of rookoes?

Razh
June 01, 2009, 04:38 PM
What are you talking about? When did I ever said anything about that? I have no idea of what your point is, I never mentioned anything about as to where the CP9 jurisdiction is(if anything it should be wherever they are needed....).

Editing posts are we?

Either that or i was hallucinating. I distinctly remember you saying that CP9 maybe only have missions in the first half of Grand Line and that maybe some vice-admirals who have to work in New World just have to be stronger.

Now, did you edit your post or did I hallucinate?

kkck
June 01, 2009, 04:41 PM
Editing posts are we?

Either that or i was hallucinating. I distinctly remember you saying that CP9 maybe only have missions in the first half of Grand Line and that maybe some vice-admirals who have to work in New World just have to be stronger.

Now, did you edit your post or did I hallucinate?

I assure you I never said such a thing and I did not edit my post. You either mistook my post or were hallucinating.

edit: When you edit a post, there usually is a comment on the lower side of the post stating when exactly the post was editted(as you can see in this one). As you can see there is no such comment in my previous posts.

BlackHair
June 01, 2009, 05:27 PM
He clearly said him and his marines will defeat SH Luffy upon the name of MHQ. The " we " was totally obvious : it is him and his marines : " we move into the goal [...] ", the ID troops already are in ID.
And the " upon the name of MHQ " closes the discussion : they will defeat Luffy upon the name of MHQ, alone, and the ID troops fight upon the name of ID, alone.
Moreover, Sadi explained herself they will not find their way in ID : that means again they were supposed to hunt for Luffy alone. I think that should conclude the backup idea.
Even if we do not know his rank, we know he is not an admiral and that he is convinced to be able to defeat our heroe with the marine troops. As I already said, he is probably the only recognized fighter in these troops (see my old post) and I mean by strong at a level that could be recognized by someone like Inazuma or eventually at a level able to deal with supernovae easily.You keep assuming without seeing the other side of possibility's. Sadi clearly said "help (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/531/03/)". Help usually mean a cooperation.

Anyway, that is completely irrelevant to begin with. All your these is based on the simple fact that he wanted go after Luffy, knowing that he is the one who defeated Lucci. Thus you are putting him above Luffy, aren't you? By a simple example, I will try to make u understand how weak you argument is: This idiot (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/507/14/) wanted to kill Kizaru. Does that mean he is stronger than Kizaru?

And I repeat, we have no proof that the guy is a VA or even a RA.. so you arguments are baseless.


I assume that WG's number one secret police division operates in the entire world.I believe since the great age of piracy, the WG has less control in the NW. That's why they also wanted the ancient weapon to regain supreme control over the NW. And lets face it, CP9 beside the top three are weak. Thus I believe they had less to cero operations in the NW. <- Just assumption without facts.

btw the one who said NW CP9 VA etc was me, not kkck. I guess there was a misunderstanding.

Organizized
June 01, 2009, 05:30 PM
I don't believe that where on the board the different pieces are placed have anything to do with the strength. All of the Shichibukai first appeared earlier than the New World, Mihawk even way back in East Blue.

I also have to add, and you will have to excuse me if I am repeating already said stuff, that most likely you don't, under certain circumstances, need any spectacular strength to become Vice Admiral at all. My example would be Vice Admiral Tsuru. She's just an old woman, does not look very strong at all, and since she's called the 'great tactician', that is most likely her biggest feat, not physical strength. She also seems to be pretty close to Sengoku, similarly to Garp, so I don't think Rank=Strength at all, even at VA level. She could be an only exception, though.

BlackHair
June 01, 2009, 05:53 PM
Smoker said that some of them are as strong as him. He didn't really describe anything.My point was rather that the marine is a organisation based on power. The higher your rank is, the higher you combat capabilities are. Of course there are probably some exception, similar to the bounty system. But in most cases (not saying in all) rank represents power (like a higher bounty does on prates/outlaws). This sort of a comparison can't be made with the real world.


I don't believe that where on the board the different pieces are placed have anything to do with the strength. All of the Shichibukai first appeared earlier than the New World, Mihawk even way back in East Blue.
Mwk appeared in the east blue, but he is probably mostly luring around the NW. CP9 however are shown in the first half of the grand line (EL). Also they (Lucci) spend five years on Water 7, if u think about it, it is rly a long time.

My point is actually that you will grow differently based on your environment. Best example would be Shanks and Buggy. Both once trannies on Rogers ship, the one is a now mighty pirate while the other is just fart. The difference in them is the sea they are sailing on.



My example would be Vice Admiral Tsuru. She's just an old woman, does not look very strong at all, and since she's called the 'great tactician', that is most likely her biggest featTsuru is a special case. She was introduced as a tactician while so far the other not. Unless there is no definition in like Tsuru, I just have to think of the VA highly.

YES there are some weaker VA while other are stronger, obviously. But roughly most should be around Luccis lvl. That's my exceptions and my current opinion unless Im proven otherwise with the manga.

Raysen_ht
June 01, 2009, 08:14 PM
Since we havent seen a VA fight, my opinion is based on the equilibrium that that 3 powers should have... I´d like to point out, that the 3 powers are the Yonkous, the Shishibukai and Marine Headquarters http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/432/07/ (not the WG, which imo is MH+Shishi+CP´s+whateverelse_ODA_comes_up_with).

((v)-weaker (^)-stronger)

Stronger VA (ex: Garp) --- Close (v) to Admiral --- Close (v) to avarage Yonkou (ex: Shanks) --- Close (v) to strong Shishi (ex: Mihawk)

Avarage VA (Saulo) --- close (^) to avarage Shishi (Boa) --- close (v) to weak Yonkou (Kaidou) --- close (^) to silver medalist

Weak VA (Buster call EL) --- close (^) strong supernova (Kidd) --- close (v) than weak Shishi (Moria)

WB is stronger than everybody.

IMO, that´s the only way to keep things balanced


BTW... I think its time to let us see the poll results...

JC123
June 01, 2009, 10:24 PM
I'm not sure I follow. Did I miss something?

The cover story. He beat one of the Captains (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/521/01/). I got it wrong. My bad.

braindamage351
June 01, 2009, 10:57 PM
I think the most realistic leveling is:

Yonkou > Admiral > Shichibukai > Vice-Admiral > Supernova

The key is that this is on average. Garp is actually presumably stronger than many shichibukai. But I think the thing we really need to keep in mind is that despite Luffy beating two shichibukai, he's not even on their level. He just somehow manages to BS his way through battles. Vice admirals cannot be on par with shichibukai overall, otherwise the Marines would blow the shichibukai away.

BlackHair
June 02, 2009, 02:23 AM
Now since when is a Yonko stronger than a Admiral?! I thought that they would be rather equal, since that would be the high tier lvl in OP. And Yes, Mwk would be one of them.

About the equilibrium, I believe: MHQ = Shichi +(crew) = Yonko (+crew). But that is again offtopic.

edit:
BTW... I think its time to let us see the poll results...
I agree

Razh
June 02, 2009, 09:22 AM
btw the one who said NW CP9 VA etc was me, not kkck. I guess there was a misunderstanding.

Yes, there was. That's what happens when you do a lot of stuff at once.

It appears I was hallucinating after all, eh kkck? :p
Sorry mate.

The poll doesn't make much sense, though, since there are a lot of vice-admirals and they vary in strength.

kkck
June 02, 2009, 10:14 AM
Thats ok, it happens lol.... I still think the VA are getting the same treatment as the anbu in naruto and the espada in bleach(being called fodder for no good reason). The VA should be a force not comparable just to fodder pirates as the supernovas(rookies are always fodder no matter how you see it) but also to those pirates who have the strength to stand up to the shichibukai(not just crocodile when trying his best not to kill you and moria refusing to fight properly) and the yonkou. Seriously, the VA are a force that in strength should be right under the admirals, they lead buster calls and are suppose to have a huge number of marines under them. How can they possibly be in the same tier as a supernova, a rookie. IMO it stands to reason a VA should be fairly above the level of a rookie. Maybe not garp strong(who can probably give an admiral a run for his money) but strong enough to handle big dudes around....

Lord Rayleigh
June 02, 2009, 11:29 AM
You keep assuming without seeing the other side of possibility's. Sadi clearly said "help (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/531/03/)". Help usually mean a cooperation.
Help does not usually mean cooperation. Cooperation means that the both parties help each other. But here only one party is supposed to help the other from what I saw/heard.


Anyway, that is completely irrelevant to begin with. All your these is based on the simple fact that he wanted go after Luffy, knowing that he is the one who defeated Lucci. Thus you are putting him above Luffy, aren't you? By a simple example, I will try to make u understand how weak you argument is: This idiot (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/507/14/) wanted to kill Kizaru. Does that mean he is stronger than Kizaru?
Your counter-argument is useless. As you said, this one is an " idiot ". I think the admiral officer is not that kind of guy and truly can know the level difference among the famous people and if he is able to fight against Luffy or not. He is a admiral officer not a pathetic out-law.


And I repeat, we have no proof that the guy is a VA or even a RA.. so you arguments are baseless.
It just show that another marine admiral officer seems to be hell strong ; another to add to the list.

Razh
June 02, 2009, 12:53 PM
You can answer him in french on PM. Right here, I expect for posts to be written in english, so I can understand them.
What happens if I start writing croatian?

Imitorar
June 02, 2009, 12:58 PM
Posts are not allowed to be written in languages other than English, except in the International Resort sub-forum. If you wish to respond to a member in a shared non-English language, use a PM. If you are making your post public to everyone else, you must make it in English.

Zellogan, please edit an English translation into your post, or the post will have to be deleted.

zelllogan
June 02, 2009, 01:23 PM
Yeah yeah, ok I get it sowwwwwwwwwwyyyyy. That post was really annoying to do in english :).

The basic idea of my post was that all posts Lord Rayleigh was posting were examples for which counter-examples existed leading to a meaningless conversation.

Sure, strenght seems to be one of the characterics that help to have an high rank in the marine. But Lord Rayleigh seems to be completely oblivious to the fact that there are people not that strong with an high rank.

So, there are no possible answers to the question of this thread other than "Various"

Lord Rayleigh
June 02, 2009, 01:46 PM
I would have liked to explain myself in french too : I am well better with reasonings in my own language, I do not meet the problems I have
here with the use of rhetoric. But I will answer in french and hope the others will understand from my answer what you told me. I think it is possible :p.


T'es très têtu qd même. Tu as des contre-exemples de vice-amiraux ou d'autres cadres de la marines qui sont faibles. Tu n'as aucune globalité pour appuyer ta thèse. A partir du moment où tu pars d'un "la plupart" et pas d'un "tous", ton hypothèse peut se faire contrée par l'absurde facilement.
For the moment, there is no counter-examples of weak V-As, this is only a statement you made : we have never seen even one tangible proof of a V-A weak in terms of strenght. Nevertheless, there are only viable examples of strong V-As, such as Saulo, Garp, Kuzan. About all the others V-A known, there are no tangible proofs about their strenght, only deductions from how they behave, act, think, talk, look like etc ...
So, for the moment, with a harsh strictness, the idea of weak admirals should be banished from meticulous knowledges. Nevertheless, as we are here to discuss about that, everyone is allowed to talk about possible weak admirals even if there is no strict examples to endorse this point of view. So, when you are saying in french that my point of view has not at least a viable postulate as they are many counter-arguments from weak V-As and weak marines, I find your notice totally inadmissible. To repeat myself, not even one tangible proof of even one weak V-A and proofs about weak marines are not acceptable in a discussion about the V-A strenght.
I have indeed no viable proof that all the V-As are strong : thank you to make me notice that ... this is what has created this discussion. Then, you are saying my thesis is irrecevable because of that. That is one of the principle of a thesis to be based on postulates. And among my postulates, I have all the viable examples that support my thesis.
So please let me express myself knowing that if it was an extremist discussion - with the only viable examples - it would intervene on my behalf. Moreover, I have myself let the opponents to my thesis explain their point of view, and try to answer to them when I found it false with reasonings based on postulates that are only coming from personal point of view, which is after all normal as it are answer to points of view.
Now, I hope we can continue in an open-minded dialogue.


Certes, la force semble être le moyen le plus sur d'atteindre des plus hauts rangs dans la marine mais ce n'est pas le seul élément à prendre en compte. Les 5 vice-amiraux de EL sont d'un niveau probablement (certainement) inférieur à luffy, lucci et autres. La façon dont un de ceux-ci parlait de lucci le plaçait sur un pied d'estal. Momonga, a eu un mal fou a soutenir la technique de base de Hancock, le fait qu'il ait battu un monstre des mers ne prouve rien ... Mister 3 a bien été capable d'immobiliser un géant de 100 millions de berry. A coté de ça,Tsuru est présentée comme une tacticienne. Personne ne voit cette grand-mère combattre. Tout ce que tu as pour appuyer ton point de vue sont des exemples pour lesquels il y a des contre-exemples.
As you said, what you think about the 5 V-A of the Buster Call are only supposition. You think, from the words of one of the 5 V-A that they are weak. As I already explain before, we cannot deduce from the concerned V-A that he is weak because he recognized Lucci'strenght and thought he would be enough to deal with Luffy ; this is not meticulous. From the facts, Momonga managed to endure Boa Hancock attack and I think what he done was the only possible way. So, he passed this test : Boa Hancock failed to turn him into stone.
As I already talked about what I thought about Tsuru : she is not a V-A working on the field unlikely all the others V-A that had been seen. She stays in Mariejoa and only give orders, decides of the marine policy to deal with pirates, out-laws. Just see my old post.

BlackHair
June 02, 2009, 03:56 PM
I will stop quoting, since I think we are losing focus on the actual topic. Also I have no intention in a heated debate.

Just cause he wanted to assist the ID force in the man, it is not said that he is stronger than Luffy. If he really was stronger, then he would have gone alone. But he had man with him. Not to mention this character wasn't even hyped like the other VA. Just compare to Magallan, he went alone after Luffy while he sent his troops elsewhere to search.

VA and strong fighter would have their pride. This one has clearly not the "strong" aura around him.

Lord Rayleigh
June 02, 2009, 04:20 PM
Just cause he wanted to assist the ID force in the man, it is not said that he is stronger than Luffy. If he really was stronger, then he would have gone alone. But he had man with him. Not to mention this character wasn't even hyped like the other VA. Just compare to Magallan, he went alone after Luffy while he sent his troops elsewhere to search.
VA and strong fighter would have their pride. This one has clearly not the "strong" aura around him.
I agree in almost everything in this post. This admiral officer is definitely not as good as someone like Garp or Ao Kiji or Ki Zaru, people who who finish the job alone. For example, Garp did not ask for help from the marines when he tried to capture - kill would be more appropriated - the SH crew ; Ao Kiji and Ki Zaru fight alone. That is why this admiral officer is not a special admiral officer, like people in this discussion already said. This admiral officer looks like more an average admiral officer, not a power house. So, I agree with the facts that among the marine ranks, there are people exceptionally strong and we cannot compare in this discussion the V-A with Garp for example ; as, I agree with the facts the admiral officer - and so do the V-As - decided to make an use of his troops.
But travelling with troops does not mean you will not fight only by yourself, that may happened.
For me, that does not mean the admiral officer - and so, the average V-A in some similar reasoning - is not strong because he went with marines troops.
Indeed, I think we can assume if his troops would have been defeated/useless, he would have decided to fight in a " mano a mano " against Luffy. After all, as you talked about Magellan, this one went with troops to LVL 4 to meet BB crew and the Crazy Team plus their okama army and he fought after alone. But the difference I think with this admiral officer is that Magellan would fight as soon as possible alone against the ennemy, whereas the admiral officer would try to use his troops against the ennemy.
But as an admiral officer, he has more responsabilities than the other marines, and he must fight for his camp, if his troops are beaten. For example, even if his troops had been turned into stone, Momonga continued the mission, not knowing if his troops would be able to survive to that. That is a part of the duty of a high-rank that do missions for MHQ. And so, that leads the possibility that an admiral officer must finish his mission alone if his troops are not able to participate to it anymore. That is why I think the admiral officers, and especially the V-As - even if they do not have the same strenght among them : that is obvious that some must be better than others - must be strong to finish the missions whatever happens.
That is also why MHQ can be confident in their troops when they command them to do difficult missions, such as to convey the most important current prisoner, Ace, from ID to MHQ whereas they know WB can attack them during the travel, and the stake of the success of this mission.

Razh
June 02, 2009, 04:27 PM
For example, even if his troops had been turned into stone, Momonga continued the mission, not knowing if his troops would be able to survive to that. That is a part of the duty of a high-rank that do missions for MHQ. And so, that leads the possibility that an admiral officer must finish his mission alone if his troops are not able to participate to it anymore.

Momonga had no choice but to stay there and wait for Hancock. One man is hardly enough to sail a battleship.
And of course, Hancock is the only one who could have restored his men to normal.
Also, his mission was not to fight anyone. He had to get Hancock to come to Marineford. It turned out he had to kill a sea king, but that's hardly something special at this point in One Piece.

beastboy
June 02, 2009, 04:43 PM
Sorry but I will start a bit off topic but is needed.

Remember the jaya arc, they were arguing cause if shanks and WB met and cooperate with each other the equilibrium of the world would be ruined.
So by that I have to conclude that,
ONE yonkou (+ crew)(at least the WB and shanks) = WG= Shichibukai (- crew)
So there are 4 yonkous that compete with each other for treasures and lands, and "compete" with WG for "freedom", Since there are only 3 admirals, the highest strengs behind an admiral has to be able to take at least 5 of the top 10, since the 3 admirals would keep with the YONKOU and the other four.

So I would change my vote to SILVER MEDALIST, the weakest one should be able to take "the nami" of the SHANKS crew...
__________
If you do not understand I will make it easy to understand


Shanks crew + WB crew + Kaidou crew + unknown yonkou crew = yonkous


Every yonkow crew has equal power to the World Govern


yonkou = 3 admirals, x vice admirals, x rear admiral, x comodores, x captains,...
(...)


1 yonkou crew = 7 shichibukais


So 3 admirals < 1 yonkou crew

3 admirals + vice admirals< yonkou crew.

How would they keep a war if a vice admiral couldn't fight agains the top crew members of WB or shanks.
___________________________

Now you ask, if thats true why do the marines need the shichi's in the upcoming war.
Answer: Cause they can't lose all their forces, cause their still 3 other yonkous.

Q: Is WB crew stupid to fight 2 of the greatest forces just by his own.
A: NO, just that WB crew is stronger than a normal crew, and he has to save on of his sons, how would he live if he let them kill ace..

Lord Rayleigh
June 02, 2009, 04:51 PM
Momonga had no choice but to stay there and wait for Hancock. One man is hardly enough to sail a battleship.
And of course, Hancock is the only one who could have restored his men to normal.
Also, his mission was not to fight anyone. He had to get Hancock to come to Marineford. It turned out he had to kill a sea king, but that's hardly something special at this point in One Piece.
He was supposed to pick up Boa Hancock with his marine troops as soon they would arrive near the Kuja kingdom. The fact that Hancock refused was not really predicted. He decided by himself to wait for her a little more time after she beat his troops. The fact that he did not fight against a strong opponent here does not destroy the idea that the admiral officers must be able to deal with the matter themselves during their missions.
So, whatever, what do you think about the idea that the admiral officers must have the duty to finish their mission only by themselves if their troops cannot do the missions ? That was the most interesting point of my post.

The analysis of this sort of idea is what can put forward this discussion. After all, the aim of this topic is to come near the best level of reality about the strenght of the V-As, not to slow the discussion with notices that are supposed to destroy a theory. And to reassess examples is not a way to show counter-examples to a theory.

Razh
June 02, 2009, 04:56 PM
@beatboy: Yeeees, because Yonkou and WG made pacts that their men will be equal in strength at all times.

I hope you didn't waste too much time on that equation.
[hr]


So, whatever, what do you think about the idea that the admiral officers must have the duty to finish their mission only by themselves if their troops cannot do the missions ? That was the most interesting point of my post.

That idea is based on one example. Momonga had no choice but to wait for Hancock. All his men were turned to stone and he's obviously in no condition to sail a battleship alone.
I think it depends on the vice-admiral himself. Whether he feels like he can accomplish mission and risk it, or whether he will withdraw and face the possible consequences.

Maybe it was interesting to you. It's just a theoretical rule of conduct. Certainly not something that could indicate vice-admiral level of strength, whatever that may be. How's that for an analysis?

beastboy
June 02, 2009, 05:15 PM
just 5 mins razh

I know they didn't make any pact, and is strengs isn't equaled but, is better to discuss is strength by the equilibrium of the world than by "how fast they kill big fishes"

Lord Rayleigh
June 02, 2009, 05:19 PM
__________
If you do not understand I will make it easy to understand


Shanks crew + WB crew + Kaidou crew + unknown yonkou crew = yonkous


Every yonkow crew has equal power to the World Govern


yonkou = 3 admirals, x vice admirals, x rear admiral, x comodores, x captains,...
(...)


1 yonkou crew = 7 shichibukais


So 3 admirals < 1 yonkou crew

3 admirals + vice admirals< yonkou crew.

How would they keep a war if a vice admiral couldn't fight agains the top crew members of WB or shanks.


If I got it well, this was a reasoning ad absurdio with the fighting power of the different groups of the OP universe ? Interesting.
One of the postulates of that reasoning was the idea that a Yonkou crew is at a similar level to the WG's marine strenght.

I will try to do a similar one with yours but it would not be a reasoning ad absurdio, only a reasoning based on an equation.

So, the postulate is a Yonkou crew = marine organization (*)
<==> WB crew = marine organization
<==> WB crew = 3 Admirals + the rest of the marine organization
<==> the rest of marine organization = WB crew - 3 Admirals.

I see the gap between WB crew and the 3 Admirals really important. I decided to name this gap X : WB crew - 3 Admirals = X.
People should agree that the war between WB crew and the 3 Admirals would be obvious. That means from the postulate that the gap between the WB crew and the 3 Admirals according to the postulate is really important.
so X is still a very important fighting power.
<==> rest of marine organization = X
<==> the V-As, the R-As, commanders, captains, sergents etc... = X.
<==> the V-As, the R-As, commanders, captains, sergents etc... are a very important strenght of the marine organization.

That is the conclusion of this postulate : WB crew = marine organization, with the idea that the WB crew vs the 3 Admirals would be a easy war for the WB pirates. That is also a reasoning that think that we can make a unit of fighting power to count the fighting power of the people.

You do not need to use the Shichibukai in that reasoning with a postulate. But you could add as the Shichibukai > 0 = no fighting power
We obtain WB crew < marine organization + Shichibukai. That would be why the WG thinks he will win this war. But this out of the reasoning. And this parenthesis need only the postulate (*) to work.

The next step is to support or destroy the postulate.

BlackHair
June 02, 2009, 05:22 PM
The equilibrium is messed up. No matter how you try to explain that, there are always some parts which don't really fit in. So trying to measure the VA abilities based on the 3 powers is just a worthless effort.

Also beastyboy, you are putting the Yonko way too high. If a single pirate crew would be equal to the WG, then they would have been wiped out by now. So your whole post is flawed.

btw a Admiral should be able to fight a Yonko Captain on par.

Lord Rayleigh
June 02, 2009, 05:36 PM
That idea is based on one example.
That is an idea that is born from a point of view. When you do a dissertation/essay, you often use a current event to add the problematic/main idea that you will try to answer/proove in the next steps.
Here this was a way to introduce my idea. Even if you find this way not appropriated, remains the idea.


Maybe it was interesting to you. It's just a theoretical rule of conduct. Certainly not something that could indicate vice-admiral level of strength, whatever that may be. How's that for an analysis?
Analysis are based on postulates, you must not forget that. I think the postulate about the admiral officers that must be able to finish the missions if their marines are beaten can be of an use in this discussion. Indeed, for me, this postulate can be at the origin of various analysis that fit with the problematic of this discussion.
Do not you think too ?


About the " equation idea ", I just use the same postulate than beastboy. I do not really know what to think about this postulate. I just wanted to help him in his reasoning.

Razh
June 02, 2009, 06:02 PM
Analysis are based on postulates, you must not forget that. I think the postulate about the admiral officers that must be able to finish the missions if their marines are beaten can be of an use in this discussion. Indeed, for me, this postulate can be at the origin of various analysis that fit with the problematic of this discussion.
Do not you think too ?

Maybe it could have been of use if there was anything to indicate such rule.
I already said what I thought about it before.

And frankly, not much can add to this discussion until we see at least 2 or 3 more admirals in battle. Preferably of lower importance.

beastboy
June 03, 2009, 09:57 AM
oh yeah, I wanted to say marine force, my fault.

Black Hair, at least shanks and WB are at the level of the marine-force.

Rayleagh, I just did some math and shichibukais are really 0 so solution {ø} in the equation :S, so we can take them out.
_______________

About the strength of the VA:

We can assume that in shanks crew almost everyone as super nova power, or at least bounty, and they're about 50 pirates, if the marines 2nd power force weren't better than a super nova how would they be able to even compete against shanks crew.

They have to be in a very high level or instead of that there are 500 vice admirals.
I would prefer to see 10 really strong guys (being saul a weak vice admiral, and tsuuru like shikamaru), and garp would be just a regular VA.

In the buster call there was a VA talking of lucci as a hero, but you can be very strong, like WB and comment to you're subordinates that are assisting a fight between shanks and mihawk "we don't have to do nothing, once in the past shanks...." so that isn't a statement that VA's are weak, just that they thought luffy was weaker than lucci, cause lucci is not a regular person, he (like luffy) is able to destroy an army of marines while eating a chicken wing, and he was talking to those marines that would be beaten ....
so in my mind yonkous>Admirals>vice admirals>rear admirals>supernovas

kkck
June 03, 2009, 11:01 AM
Actually considering ennies lobby arc and diez drake, it would seem as if the current, probably stronger, supernovas should be on similar in overall power to rear admirals who are a level lower than VA....

Razh
June 03, 2009, 11:12 AM
Actually considering ennies lobby arc and diez drake, it would seem as if the current, probably stronger, supernovas should be on similar in overall power to rear admirals who are a level lower than VA....

What kind of reasoning is that?

I'll just mention Smoker who is probably stronger than a lot of vice-admirals.

BlackHair
June 03, 2009, 11:33 AM
Also plz don't put the SN in a equal basket. Luffy would beat the crap out of Capone xD


Black Hair, at least shanks and WB are at the level of the marine-force.I don't wane go offotpic with the three powers, so just to let u know. I disagree with you.

kkck
June 03, 2009, 12:50 PM
What kind of reasoning is that?

I'll just mention Smoker who is probably stronger than a lot of vice-admirals.

For one thing, smoker isn't nesesarily even close to a VA. We have no idea if any of them can actually hurt logias.

Also, I meant that as a general rule, not an absolute which should be applied to every VA,RA and supernova....

beastboy
June 03, 2009, 04:19 PM
Black Hair I don't wanna get off topic but how will the war even be a war if WB doesn't win against the marine force, cause they have the shichibukai there to.


Razh, OMFG, you saw that a roockie in shanks crew has 100.000.000 of bounty, they're are at least 20 of those guys in his crew, how would the Marines stand a chance against shanks if a VA wasn't(AT LEAST) stronger than luffy-kid-law TOGETHER.
And do not forget X-Drake, the person who make a pacifista fly away with easy, thing that the wing guy needed to go to his other form, and was only a rear admiral.
So a rear admiral is at Top super nova level, and a VA is at an whole diferente level.

kkck
June 03, 2009, 04:31 PM
Whitebeard has 16 divisions and each of the commanders from each one could be comparable or stronger than ace, who was already a monster. The really tough cookies there could be as strong as admirals, those with no particular positions could still be a lot stronger than any strawhat or even supernova(considering how insignificant the old lady and ivankov have suggested luffy would be in the war, this is very likely). Anything less than that would make it stupid for the WG to actually have to gather every asset they have for the war. On the other hand, in turn that means that the strong dudes in the WG have to be able to cope with the strong ones in WB crew. If the ones who follow the admirals are as petty and insignificant as luffy then the WG is screwed IMO.

Razh
June 03, 2009, 04:45 PM
Razh, OMFG, you saw that a roockie in shanks crew has 100.000.000 of bounty, they're are at least 20 of those guys in his crew, how would the Marines stand a chance against shanks if a VA wasn't(AT LEAST) stronger than luffy-kid-law TOGETHER.

Marines are a unified organization while as Yonkou are not in one. That's the reason why WG wants to keep everything balanced, without causing some great war with huge losses. Well, until now anyway.
Commanders aren't supposed to fight in the first lines, and we've seen that there are a lot of strong Marines even in lower ranks.

I'd say one Yonkou crew/fleet couldn't win against the whole WG might, but if they were unified, WG would be history.

BlackHair
June 03, 2009, 06:03 PM
Black Hair I don't wanna get off topic but how will the war even be a war if WB doesn't win against the marine force, cause they have the shichibukai there to.

We have the MHQ confirming of other pirates (Panel 2) (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/523/12/)

We have Iva saying that Dragon might attack (Panel 2) (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/539/12/) as well

We have Shanks (Panel 3) (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/533/03/) backing up WB, with stopping Kaido

Just want to say that WB is not coming alone. And plz read this post (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1139603&postcount=134) and this page of Jimbei describing WB (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/529/04/).

Regarding the equilibrium, the revolution army and the countless outlaws not included. It is the great age of piracy after all. All those has the MHQ to face, thus they are overburdened. That's why the Shichi are appointed.

Benjamin Kaito
June 03, 2009, 06:17 PM
Though, i doubt that the revolutionaries will back up WB. They can jump in, but they would do it for their own business.

Raysen_ht
June 10, 2009, 04:56 PM
Are we ever going to see the poll results??

Imitorar
June 10, 2009, 07:31 PM
You know what, I was gonna leave it to the thread opener, but if this many people are clamoring for it, I'm just going to make the poll show the results.

EDIT: And now I've changed it back, because apparently Lord Rayleigh asked that the poll results be hidden when he made the thread. If you want the results to be publicized, PM Lord Rayleigh and ask him to either change the options himself (if he can, I don't remember if thread openers can do it or not) or to ask a moderator to publicize the poll results.

EDIT 2: And since Lord Rayleigh just asked me to publicize the results of the poll, that's what I've done.

RichardMNixon
June 11, 2009, 05:16 PM
Actually I'm hoping that Akainu isn't a strong fighter, but just a brilliant and merciless dark justice type guy. He'd be the one at Marineford with a seastone knife in Ace's back in case things go south.

It's definitely hard to say, I'm actually becoming less convinced that Garp is some sort of paragon, he might be only in the upper levels. Look how strong Drake is, he kicked a Pacifista better than Sanji and he's only a rear admiral. I don't think they're as dangerous as Magellan though, so I might expect some of the other Straw hats will fight VAs while Luffy inevitably fights an admiral.

scarletcrimson
June 12, 2009, 06:28 AM
Actually I'm hoping that Akainu isn't a strong fighter, but just a brilliant and merciless dark justice type guy. He'd be the one at Marineford with a seastone knife in Ace's back in case things go south.

It's definitely hard to say, I'm actually becoming less convinced that Garp is some sort of paragon, he might be only in the upper levels. Look how strong Drake is, he kicked a Pacifista better than Sanji and he's only a rear admiral. I don't think they're as dangerous as Magellan though, so I might expect some of the other Straw hats will fight VAs while Luffy inevitably fights an admiral.


i still think garp was holding back just for the few times he actually did something, just to show that hes actually willing to go after his grandson but he knows it wouldnt kill him

I agree with Rayleigh in that the power is not equal to rank, look at smoker hes badass as only a captain(commodore now) and then there is the drake thing (although he might not have had zoan powers as a rear admiral)

Magellan should at least be on VA- level since hes in command of impel down and has to handel all those badass pirates

The whole balance of power is slightly ambiguous but imo if it came down to just VA + A vs WB crew it would be about even

RichardMNixon
June 12, 2009, 10:46 AM
Magellan should at least be on VA- level since hes in command of impel down and has to handel all those badass pirates


The way I see it, Magellan has to be stronger than Crocodile, Jimbei, and Hancock or else they could have just taken him down. If he's in the top half of the Schichibukai or even above them all, he's got to also be stronger than the majority vice admirals, or else why even bother having the Schichi?

Honestly I'd guess that most vice admirals are at Hannibal/Guard Beast level.

Lord Rayleigh
June 28, 2009, 05:35 PM
Finally, it seems that this admiral officer (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/531/02/) is a rear-admiral and not a vice-admiral. It is based on what Jimbei said (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/548/05/) in the last chapter : all the vice-admirals must be in MHQ ready for battle. So, I guess the admiral officers leading the remaining battleships are all rear-admirals. At least one (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/548/04/) of them is a rear-admiral. Personally, I admit they are rear-admirals.

Gecko Moria
June 28, 2009, 10:35 PM
Actually I'm hoping that Akainu isn't a strong fighter, but just a brilliant and merciless dark justice type guy. He'd be the one at Marineford with a seastone knife in Ace's back in case things go south.

It's definitely hard to say, I'm actually becoming less convinced that Garp is some sort of paragon, he might be only in the upper levels. Look how strong Drake is, he kicked a Pacifista better than Sanji and he's only a rear admiral. I don't think they're as dangerous as Magellan though, so I might expect some of the other Straw hats will fight VAs while Luffy inevitably fights an admiral.

Judging by what we've seen from the Admirals so far, Akainu is probably a strong fighter. The 3 Admirals are dubbed the World Government's "Ultimate Attack Force" being the 3 strongest individual fighters under the WG. From what we've seen Akainu is surely going to be evil and ruthless and following the pattern he'd be a he'd have a logia power with something to do with the colour red.


The way I see it, Magellan has to be stronger than Crocodile, Jimbei, and Hancock or else they could have just taken him down. If he's in the top half of the Schichibukai or even above them all, he's got to also be stronger than the majority vice admirals, or else why even bother having the Schichi?

Honestly I'd guess that most vice admirals are at Hannibal/Guard Beast level.

Magellan may be stronger than one of Crocodile, Boa or Jinbei but definitely not all of them. No fact it's possible he's not stronger than any of them. The main reason Luffy, Jinbei and Crocodile etc. were runnng away from is because time was of the essence and they couldn't waste time engaging with in a full on fight because more and more marines were gathering outside and Ace's execution was drawing nearer. Jinbei, Crocodile and Luffy together could have easily taken him down. If he could beat all 3 of them, he would be an Admiral. But, Magellan is probably stronger than the majority of the Vice Admirals.

There is no doubt that the Vice Admirals are powerful (though some of them probably just worked their way up slowly by showing commitment to "Justice"). Remember, Aokiji (and Akainu) were Vice Admirals at one point and it's obvious how strong they are. IMO the VA's are above Supernova-level and below Shichibukai-level.

kkck
June 28, 2009, 11:07 PM
IMHO it would be absurd if the VA were on par with the supernovas. The VA, following the chain of command we have been given, should be the second most powerful asset in the WG. They should be strong enough for them to actually make a difference in a fight against yonkou, shichibukai and in the current war. Just being able to make such a difference is WAY above the level of any rookie AKA supernova.

Seriously, lets take a look at a few examples of strong marines which should be below admiral level(smoker will be ignored for obvious reasons). T-bone was very strong and he was just a captain. Hina toyed with mr 2 in the coverstory. Seriously, mr 2 was the third strongest in BW and the guy who pushed sanji to his limits yet hina took him out almost instantly. Thats quite strong IMO. Obviously ranks don't mean everything but still, the VA should be insanely strong, I would not be surprised if a VA could toy with someone such as rob lucci or even luffy.

braindamage351
June 29, 2009, 01:17 PM
Jinbei, Crocodile and Luffy together could have easily taken him down. If he could beat all 3 of them, he would be an Admiral. But, Magellan is probably stronger than the majority of the Vice Admirals.

Not really. Jimbei was on land (where he's just a high-level martial artist, probably weaker than Iva), Crocodile is weak to liquids, and Luffy fights with his hands. Magellan would take all of them out sooner or later. People underestimate how good Luffy is at dodging, the other high-level guys seem to actually be slower than him even in base mode (despite being stronger). One splash of poison and it's over. Outside of Impel Down, or with Hancock there (she could potentially solo Magellan at this point, we have no idea what level she's actually on), it's a different story. But those three in that situation could easily just lose.



There is no doubt that the Vice Admirals are powerful (though some of them probably just worked their way up slowly by showing commitment to "Justice"). Remember, Aokiji (and Akainu) were Vice Admirals at one point and it's obvious how strong they are. IMO the VA's are above Supernova-level and below Shichibukai-level.

Yeah, it's pretty much common sense that the Vice Admirals are stronger than supernovas but weaker than shichibukai. After all, Drake is only a rear admiral and he's one of the top supernovas. The strongest vice admirals can be on the level of shichibukai or even admirals (although I don't think we'll see that outside of flashbacks), but on average they're in between. I'm sure Luffy can beat most of them, though, since he's the pinnacle of supernova level himself.

Oh, and I really don't think that's an option in the poll. "Silver medalist" really refers to guys like Crocodile and Moria, IE shichibukai. The supernovas are still too weak to have even challenged Whitebeard yet.

chess4
June 29, 2009, 01:27 PM
garp is a vice admiral and he is a monster

BlindMunkey
June 30, 2009, 12:35 AM
garp is deff. stronger than average VA. hes said to corner gold d roger several times. same for smokers. his rank doesnt represents his strength. the fact that there only can be only 3 admirals [ i hope im right about that] is another thing. the level of power is probably consistantly growing between admirals and vice admirals. anyways imo VA level of strength is too far of supernovas.

jmq07
June 30, 2009, 04:48 AM
imo, garp is stronger than admirals... i'm referring to Aokiji's statement when he met Luffy and company the first time before EL arc... He says that his (Luffy's) grandpa made him do something he didn't want a long time ago or something, i could not remember too well. I think imo that was VA Kuzan being promoted to Admiral because Garp doesn't seemly want to and made him do it instead. I mean it's a pain in the ass responsibility and considering Aokiji's lazy justice motto, that Admiral promotion should be something he won't want to volunteer for, so to speak. IMO, Garp being able to corner Roger in the past speaks volumes about his strength.

But topicwise, I think other VA's aside from Garp are strong enough to withstand a battle with the Shichibukai and possibly win it if their abilities are at a advantage over the latters (i.e. Shuu's rust DF against swordsmen but im not implying he can beat Mihawk though but only as an example). All in all, I think 1 VA = 1 Silver Medalist = 1 Shichibukai but only in general terms in speaking of fighting abilities... There are fights though that would exempt from the general rule of stalemate.
[hr]
Regarding the coming war, i even think that it would be Garp against WB because 1 of the Admirals decided to take hime on but cannot withstand the power of the 'ruler of the seas'.

Razh
June 30, 2009, 05:26 AM
If each vice-admiral was as strong as Shichibukai then there wouldn't be much purpose of calling Shichibukai one of the 3 great powers.
I think the majority of vice-admirals is around Supernova strength. That would be kinda center value. There are of course, weaker and stronger ones. Battle potential wise.

Smoker and Hina who are of lower ranks are not an indicator that vice-admirals are a lot stronger. Smoker said it himself that there are some people who are as strong as him but have a lot higher position than him.

jmq07
July 01, 2009, 12:09 AM
hmmm... i guess i concluded quite crudely... well i guess Razh is right about the Shichibukai being stronger than VAs.
I still dont think that Supernova level is good enough for the rough estimate of their abilites though... Anyway, differences of opinion are nice to have in a discussion. Let's just put VA level to be at VA level.. hehe
Anyway if Marines would be compared to a pirate crew, VAs gotta be division heads like the ones WB does, isn't it? Oh well maybe VA = SN = SM as an estimate would be more feasible than my previous conclusion. Until proven otherwise I think I'm gonna stand by it. But i still place the exemption on Garp though. IMO, he's really tough. At least Admiral level or par with Sengoku, Roger and WB.

kkck
August 15, 2009, 11:52 AM
I think the previous chapter speaks wonders of the strength of the VA. The VA were actually matched against WB 14 division commanders, people who actually are at the peak of the NW. If the VA weren't at least that powerful, the war would essentially be over in WB favor IMO.

Poneglyph420
August 15, 2009, 08:49 PM
Of course since the Shichibukai comprise 1/3 of the world power structure, they would be stronger tan the VA. Also like previous posts I think the VA must be as strong as the WB division commanders. Indeed they are the ones sent on a buster call and would inherit an admiral position if one was to fall. They are beyond Supernovae level by far, but one on one would get pwned by a Shichibukai or Yonkou.

Any Ideas on the Zoan VA???
It's not Doberman right???

Lord Rayleigh
August 15, 2009, 09:18 PM
Any Ideas on the Zoan VA???
It's not Doberman right???
If you talk about the one with a lot of swords hold by special " hands ", his name is Onigumo.

Drmke
August 15, 2009, 09:24 PM
Of course since the Shichibukai comprise 1/3 of the world power structure, they would be stronger tan the VA. Also like previous posts I think the VA must be as strong as the WB division commanders. Indeed they are the ones sent on a buster call and would inherit an admiral position if one was to fall. They are beyond Supernovae level by far, but one on one would get pwned by a Shichibukai or Yonkou.

I think that would depend on the Shichibukai. Like I think pretty much all the Vice Admirals would have to strength to beat Crocodile or the dude from Thriller Bark (name escapes me). Both beaten by Luffy who is at Supernova level essentially.

Even if the Shichibukai are 1/3 of the world power structure, the Marines are also part of that. The Vice Admirals are part of the Marines so whose to say that even though there are 3 parts to the power structure, that one part is not vastly stronger than the other?

Gecko Moria
August 16, 2009, 03:34 PM
Any Ideas on the Zoan VA???
It's not Doberman right???


If you talk about the one with a lot of swords hold by special " hands ", his name is Onigumo.

It seems many of the Vice-Admirals hold Zoan DF powers. Onigumo's "hands" share properties to those of a spider (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/553/10-11/). In addition, the last part of his name "gumo" translates to spider in Japanese.

Poneglyph420
August 16, 2009, 03:40 PM
If you talk about the one with a lot of swords hold by special " hands ", his name is Onigumo.

Actually the guy behind him, we still have no proof Onigumo (Demon Spider)
is Zoan...

And individually we can't say if one VA is stronger than one Shichibukai. But Since the Marines and Shichibukai counter the Yonkou we can assume the Shichibukai collectively are more powerful than the VA.

beastboy
August 16, 2009, 03:47 PM
the gay behind demon spider (onigumo hehehe, I think it can be translated like this) might be garp, I mean he has beard and looks like a dog (remember garp's mask, and garp's ship...)

Lord Rayleigh
August 17, 2009, 08:44 AM
Actually the guy behind him, we still have no proof Onigumo (Demon Spider)
is Zoan...
That's what I said " if you talk ". But I see it was the man behind.
We cannot say he is a zoan either. As you see, his body is not totally in a dog appeal, a part is normal and the rest not : something we could not explain for the moment. If Onigumo has a Spider DF, that is the same with him : a part of his body is in spider, whereas the rest is normal.
We only knew 3 parts of Zoan : animal form, hybrid form (a complete mix of all the body with the animal and normal form) and normal form.
There are also special uses of these 3 forms with the Rumble Ball but Chopper never had a part of him in animal form and a part in human form.

RichardMNixon
August 19, 2009, 10:01 PM
I think there's a good amount of play amongst the VA's. Consider that someone only one rank down is a supernova upon his defection, so there's got to be some others that were recent rear admirals. There's also a few who are near admiral rank and might be called to replace one.

All in all I think there's a few in there Luffy or Zoro could take, maybe even Sanji, and certainly a few that are still out of their league.

sh4dx
September 06, 2009, 08:11 AM
I think that would depend on the Shichibukai. Like I think pretty much all the Vice Admirals would have to strength to beat Crocodile or the dude from Thriller Bark (name escapes me). Both beaten by Luffy who is at Supernova level essentially.

Even if the Shichibukai are 1/3 of the world power structure, the Marines are also part of that. The Vice Admirals are part of the Marines so whose to say that even though there are 3 parts to the power structure, that one part is not vastly stronger than the other?

man you are totaly mistaken i think.there is no way a VA can win against croc or moria.there is no way for them to be in the 1/3 great powers if it's like this..


shall i say about dofla humilliates them even inside mariejoa ?or boa with a simple attack made momonga kneel in front of her ? or the guy at buster call that all he did was talking about lucci like he's even stronger than the VA ranks(http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/422/04/ http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/422/05/ ).and last now against oars..if it was the SH crew they could have easily bring him down(if he isn't a zombie like oz,no luffy's shadow,no moria)and the 9 VA squad didn't make even a move..

2 shich playing around with them like nothing..(ok dofla playing around with a 13th d.commander of wb as well!)

a VA talking about lucci like he is much superior from them.

they could at least take out oars,i mean they were 9 VA and yet they did NOTHING.i'm sure,that the SH can easily wipe him out (you saw how much struggle they done on oz zombie, so it's obvious that against a oars who is normal they could win "easily" against him.

i would like the VA been around pacifista level,i mean that 1 or 2 VA can take out all the SH crew even with difficulty, but instead it looks like 1VA = luffy or zoro until now.

i insist,until now the VA(except of garp of course) doing NOTHING but just take great poses and momonga kills a sea king,nothing special..Oda HAS to give them some glorious fights its not right for the 2nd strongest soldiers of the marines being around like fodders.

Franckie
September 06, 2009, 12:58 PM
It's hard to say somewhat. They're the third highest ranking in the MHQ in addition to being used as fodder to show-off people such as Hancock (Shichibukai) and Whitebeard (Yonkou), people who are/almost top-tier. Furthermore, from what Saul, Aokiji, and Garp, and from what they've shown, they're strong enough to beat any of the SHs - specifically Luffy, Zoro, and Sanji - in a fight. Ranking them as mid-high tier fighters would be most appropriate.

RichardMNixon
September 06, 2009, 04:12 PM
One problem I just noticed with this poll is that one of the current leaders is "Silver Medalist level." We have ZERO idea what that even means. The only thing we've seen "silver medalists" do is get hyped up as being awesome, then get their shit rocked by Magellan and Iva. Going by that I might put them below Supernova level...

sh4dx
September 08, 2009, 04:06 AM
you are right,we don't know anything about SM, and still i believe that there must be more choices about the VA's strength, at least pacifista level.i think that if we have Yonkou/SB/MHQ then the VA's are around supernovas level, until now at least.i believe that zoro or luffy CAN handle one on one fight withe the VA's(except garp ofc),And something that doesn't make sense is that MHQ send 5 VA to take ace from ID to marineford(and they don't knew if wb will go at ID or at marineford)and now we saw wb to take out a giant VA with 2 hits..

kkck
December 12, 2009, 02:31 PM
Ok, I think 48 hours have passed since the chapter release but I will write in spoiler tags anyways(at least according to the duscussion thread).

Ok, we just saw s small part of the VA powers and it seems they simply are in another league. Granted luffy was tired but he did have the hormones iva gave him which should allow him to go on for over a day. Seeing this I think it is more than clear the VA are in a different league in comparison to the SN(AKA the worthless rookies lol).

Razh
December 12, 2009, 03:07 PM
Do you really think Luffy couldn't beat any of those two one on one?
Cause I saw a gang-up. They didn't show much more than best CP9 members and Luffy has supposedly beaten the best Rokushiki user.

Dice
December 12, 2009, 03:21 PM
But it would not be an easy win against any of them. I'm glad that we saw that they are no push-over. Though one on one Luffy would have probably won against those two.
And nice to see that there are other rokushiki user except the CP9.

zagorka
December 12, 2009, 03:27 PM
I think Vice Admirals are for the most part are equal to the SB, but again it's hard to gauge strength in this manga. I don't even like saying something as absolute as I just did, but for the purpose of discussion I did. I mean, what if Momonga and a few others are stronger than other Vice Admirals?

I've been thinking that when a Buster Call is enacted, the WG orders out roughly 5-6 Vice Admirals. This is probably because all of them together equal the strength of an Admiral, more or less.

Now I'm sure Luffy could hold his own against one for a good amount of time until he would lose eventually. This is because of the knowledge of Haki the VA's most likely hae. But Luffy has hard time with people like Smoker, and Sentoumaru whom are of lower rank. So I'm not too sure, how to gauge their strength at this point.

Finale
December 12, 2009, 03:36 PM
Do you really think Luffy couldn't beat any of those two one on one?
Cause I saw a gang-up. They didn't show much more than best CP9 members and Luffy has supposedly beaten the best Rokushiki user.

And lets not forget that Luffy has been in near constant battle ( facing shichi and admirals) since ID while the VA have had time to rest for the war with WB.

zagorka
December 12, 2009, 05:14 PM
But also remember, that Luffy needed his crew's help and the help of others to defeat Moria and a Pacifista. He could not defeat them alone.

Shiro-kun
December 12, 2009, 05:40 PM
Since the only Vice Admirals that have been defeated in the whitebeard war have only been giants, and agaisnt Whitebeard (a guy regarded as the strongest man alive) for that matter.

Its hard to judge how powerful the Vice Admirals may be, There could be members just for commanding or strategic reasons (like that commodore that got pwned by Arlong crew a long long time ago ...because of his rank doesnt mean he is more powerful than Smoker who at the time was just a captain..) while there could very power members that yet to fight (Garp is a given , and Momonga showed us a little of what he can do ). So it be hard the gauge the level of the Vice Admirals as of now since we seen so little of them besides The Giant VA's they are just giving poses before they were going to fight , giving orders to lower ranking marines and defeated some fodder pirates (Tsuru).

MAX_COLA_POWER!
December 12, 2009, 06:02 PM
It's easy to confuse that the fact that Momonga and Dalmatian big guy knew some Rokushiki moves, that they may be in another league. I personally think that they are. Some people might think that because Rob Lucci mastered all six powers of the Rokushiki, thus being able to use the ultimate Rokushiki move, Rokuougan, that he is the ultimate master of said martial art, that no one can compare to him. Now we know that Rokushiki is not just a Cipher Pol fighting style, but one required for high ranking Marine and World Government oficials. It would be interesting to see if all 5 members of the Gorosei were masters of one of each style, thus the scarring. So in laymen's terms, the Vice Admirals can be defeated, but what has been said is true, Luffy has been battle worn during the whole war, and for all we know, the healing hormones may have stopped working. Luffy's power, is in his friends, although having made new friends along his journey, the 8 people in his crew are the ones he fights the best with. That's why I hope that a certain Mero Mero maiden joins him in the future, so that not just him, but his entire crew, will have a piece of knowledge of how strong the world, the new world, is.

Jiggy-Ninja
December 12, 2009, 08:02 PM
The Vice-Admirals in One Piece aren't really "vices" in the same sense as the Vice-Captains in Bleach, Vice-Warden Hannybal in Impel Down, or Vice President....uh.....how pathetic is it that I'm a native U.S. citizen and don't even know the Vice President's name >.< Isn't it Joe Biden?

In the Bleach and Hannybal cases, their titles (taichou and shochou, respectively) are prefixed by the word 副 (fuku), which roughly means "assistant". The "vice" prefix in their name has a root in the Japanese.

Vice-Admirals, however, are different. The rank of Admiral is called taishou, and the Vice-Admiral rank is called not fuku-taishou, but chuujou. This is fitting the pattern that Oda laid out in an SBS detailing the Marine's ranking system.

The thing with rankings though is that they don't necessarily overlap between different languages. All the English titles on the Marines (http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/Marines) page of the One Piece wiki, like Admiral, Ensign, Private, Master Chief Petty Officer, and Commodore are not literal translations. They are, at best, approximations used to represent One Piece's Marine ranking order by using the rankings of English-speaking military systems.

In summary, Vice-Admiral is just a normal rank below Admiral. They are no more "second in line" for an admiral rank than Smoker (currently a junshou[/u], iirc) is second in line for a [i]shoushou spot.

Notice: From here on, Garp will be counted as an Admiral, which is the rank he would have if he didn't refuse promotion for whatever his personal reasons may be.

Also, I don't think that there are 3 Admiral slots that always have to be filled, no more or less like with the Shichibukai. I think it's that those who are worthy and have the appropriate power, leadership, maturity, experience, etc are promoted regardless of the number. It just so happens that in the Marines right now, aside from the Fleet Admiral himself, there are only 4 people who deserve that rank.

As for the argument that their alt names fit with some story or something (too lazy to look it up now, I vaguely remember something like that), remember that OP is a story, and that means that everything about it is contrived to fit the vision that the author has. Notice that each Admiral's power fits with the color. (Blue > Ice, Yellow > Light, Red > Magma). It could be that the names are decided on by whatever color and animal best describes the person. Oda could have first come up with the scheme that the Admirals would be given color-animal code names that described them, and then contrived the current 3 Admirals to fit that story.

Brook, for instance might be called "Shirouma" (White Horse) or Zoro "Midorizame" (Green Shark) if they ever became Admirals.

As for my opinion of their power level, I think "silver medalist" is the closest. Being only the 3rd highest rank, with 5 people ranked higher, it would be outrageous to think that they are the same level as the Yonkou, who are portrayed to be be ungodly powerful. And from what we've seen of Whitebeard, if the other 3 Yonkou are even close to that level, even the Admirals would have a tough time keeping up with them.

And putting them at the same level as rookies is just stupid. All the VA's are at/past middle age, and are far more experienced that rookies. It's only sensible that they'll be far more powerful than mere rookies too.

Supernova is a bit trickier. The supernovas are really just rookie pirates that have made an exceptionally large name for themselves. They're pretty strong, but even Luffy, one of the top Supernovas, is getting tossed around like a rag doll in the Whitebeard war. IMO, the Vice-Admirals are higher than that.

RichardMNixon
December 12, 2009, 08:25 PM
Smoker and even more so Sentoumaru are special cases. Smoker isn't a higher rank because he doesn't really care. Sentoumaru is captain of the science unit; I think it's a big mistake to translate that as a captain rank in the marines. Rather I think the science unit is an independent entity also subordinate to the WG. Consider that the 200 people the SHs beat the crap out of on the Bridge of Hesitation were all captains. Also note Sentoumaru's statement that he has nothing against pirates, that doesn't sound like something a marine would say.

I think Luffy would beat a typical VA but it would be tougher than say Hannyabal, Blueno, or the Snake sisters. Might be able to take on two in his peak condition but I think he'd need a few days of sleep and meals after.

They seemed to hold Lucci in almost reverence, so I don't think they could be much stronger if stronger at all.

Razh
December 12, 2009, 10:01 PM
Yeah, that's what I was saying. I think that most of vice-admirals are somewhere around Lucci's strength, probably weaker.
I didn't see anything more impressive with two vice-admirals.

kkck
December 12, 2009, 10:30 PM
I can't imagine the VA being at lucci's level, it is simply far too weak for the scale of combat present here. I mean, lucci is roughly about the same strength of luffy and ever since the kid got to the war he has been easily thrown around like a rag doll. Anyone who matters has implied luffy is far too weak and young to be there. Ivankov even implied the VA where all beasts far superior to luffy here:
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/540/14/

The VA are people who in the current war actually matter and have the potential to make a difference. Luffy (and by extension anyone of his level) on the other hand is no different from the many nameless pirates over there. Unless lucci somehow grew 10 times stronger I just don't see a VA being of his level. There is a chance one of the weaker VA might actually have a little trouble defeating him though. If lucci really had been of the VA and luffy defeated him in a direct phisical confrontation, people would not be telling him to step out and that he is far out of his league. Luffy defeating moria and crocodile only because he got lucky(crocodile did easily beat him twice and luffy technically never fought moria 1 on 1 long enough to actually say the guy was weak). It's not like those two VA easily outclassed luffy in his normal state, they completely outclassed a gear two luffy under vigor hormones.

Jiggy-Ninja
December 13, 2009, 12:52 AM
Luffy was heavily fatigued from the battle, so much that he could barely even activate Gear Second before getting Shigan'ed by that Dalmatian guy. He's getting seriously worn out from the constant fighting.

Don't forget that he got kicked by Kizaru twice (I don't care if he's rubber, a lightspeed kick is going to hurt like hell), stabbed by Aokiji, took Smoker's Seastone jutte right in the face/neck area twice, and had to fight for his life against Mihawk.

I don't think that Luffy is quite at Vice-Admiral level yet, but he isn't as far off as you imply. The main thing Luffy lacks right now is the ability to hurt Logias, which is why he keeps getting his ass handed to him by Smoker and the Admirals. He literally can't touch them.

Fully fed, rested, and healed, I have no doubt that Luffy could fight on par with any Vice-Admiral in the Marines, barring maybe Garp, who's at or above Admiral power anyway. And with even a rudimentary control over his Haoushoku Haki, he could probably tan Smoker's ass and pose at least a serious threat to the Admirals, even though he still might not be able to win yet.

RichardMNixon
December 13, 2009, 02:12 AM
I can't imagine the VA being at lucci's level, it is simply far too weak for the scale of combat present here. I mean, lucci is roughly about the same strength of luffy and ever since the kid got to the war he has been easily thrown around like a rag doll. Anyone who matters has implied luffy is far too weak and young to be there. Ivankov even implied the VA where all beasts far superior to luffy here:
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/540/14/

The VA are people who in the current war actually matter and have the potential to make a difference. Luffy (and by extension anyone of his level) on the other hand is no different from the many nameless pirates over there. Unless lucci somehow grew 10 times stronger I just don't see a VA being of his level. There is a chance one of the weaker VA might actually have a little trouble defeating him though. If lucci really had been of the VA and luffy defeated him in a direct phisical confrontation, people would not be telling him to step out and that he is far out of his league. Luffy defeating moria and crocodile only because he got lucky(crocodile did easily beat him twice and luffy technically never fought moria 1 on 1 long enough to actually say the guy was weak). It's not like those two VA easily outclassed luffy in his normal state, they completely outclassed a gear two luffy under vigor hormones.

This and the next page suggested to me that Lucci was a good bit stronger than Doberman: http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/422/04/

No, Luffy isn't a huge deal in the war and he can't take on Kizaru, but 15 Luffy's would be a big deal and Momonga can't take on Joz either.

Luffy is a helluva lot stronger than most of the people there (look at Mr. 1 owning WB's fodder); he's just not strong enough to be at the center of attention on the platform with the admirals.

Poneglyph420
December 13, 2009, 02:31 AM
Up until now Luffy has succeeded based on his sheer will of force.. He beat Croc, Enel, Moria all based on the fact he had the unending will they did not. Of course there are other factors in play here but Luffy cannot be at VA level IMO. I don't think that the VA's are all equally powerful, but they would equate to the WB commanders/Shichibukai IMO. Luffy has destiny on his side, that's why he's still even alive, his skill to attract faithful nakama, even from the most unlikely candidates. To be on VA level Luffy will have to be able to control his power and harness the Haki within. His brazen nature won't fade, but even the foresight when Mihawk was gonna chop his arm off shows development.

Jiggy, the Admirals names are from Momotaro.

kkck
December 13, 2009, 03:03 AM
This and the next page suggested to me that Lucci was a good bit stronger than Doberman: http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/422/04/

No, Luffy isn't a huge deal in the war and he can't take on Kizaru, but 15 Luffy's would be a big deal and Momonga can't take on Joz either.

Luffy is a helluva lot stronger than most of the people there (look at Mr. 1 owning WB's fodder); he's just not strong enough to be at the center of attention on the platform with the admirals.

Not sure how that gave you the impression that lucci was stronger than dobberman lol. I mean, luffy is also acknowledge as strong but only in specific contexts. In this case they jusy assumed lucci would be enough to deal with a rookie pirate crew. Had a more notorious pirate crew been there the VA would have acted instead of letting lucci do the dirty work.

Even if luffy is stronger than most of the fodder around there(which by no means is an accomplishment at this point), his main problem is that this battle will be decided by the actions of very few. In that sense, it barely makes a difference whether a great deal of marines and pirates are actually there. At most this fodder is a diversion from the big shots or simply handles weapons capable of much higher destruction that themselves. Luffy simply does not have the capacities to make that big of a difference in this war. I honestly doubt men of luffy's caliber are even somewhat rare in this battle or even if the NW crews. Quite frankly any admiral, most shichibukai, a bunch of the VA, the WB commanders or anyone who will actually play a part in who will win this war could easily take 1, 10 or 100 luffy's. And it is not because luffy cannot hurt logias, even if he could the odds of him taking on an admiral are slim to cero. This are the forces that will play a part in who wins this war:

The grand admiral sengoku. Big shot around, he by himself will make a huge difference.

the 3 admirals. The greatest marine attack force. They could fight toe to toe with any big shot around.

The 9 vice admirals. Greatest asset only below the admirals. Each of them is a marine veteran with decades of experience(chapter 0). Each of them has it in them to make a huge difference in the war. IMHO each of this easily has the strength to match a shichibukai or a WB commander. Garp should be considered to be on par or above admirals.

Shichibukai. Their title speaks for itself. Each of them is a massive asset to say the least and the absence of just 1 makes a huge difference. I think people tend to underestimate them because luffy got lucky though(I have my doubts about luffy even being capable of defeating crocodile if there was to be a rematch lol).

Anyone below this is fodder regarding the marines. There are a few individuals worth mentioning but I still get the impression their job is to reduce the number of fodder around.

The rear admirals. Seeing drake, I get the impression that at most luffy is comparable to this but he might be slightly above. While strong in the less extreme circles, they no longer have the capacity to make an individual difference.

Pacifista: over 20 of them, each of them capable of taking on a shichibukai IMHO. They attack at great range and deal insane damage. They basically even the odds against the overwhelming number of strong pirates around.

Commodores and captains. Strong little fodders at most. They reduce the amount of fodder around at best. Only ones worth mentioning are smoker and hina(she is not that big of a deal though). Smoker is only worth mentioning because of his fruit though.

Anyone below this is not even worth mentioning.

As for the pirates:

WB. grand strategist and alledged strongest man.

The WB commanders. Their levels seem to vary but as a whole they could take on the admirals, VA and shichibukai. Each of them has it in him to make a huge difference in the current war and has fame as being at the top of the pirating world.

NW captains along with their main fighters. A number of this should be capable of making a difference on the war. IMHO most of them should be capable of fighting with shichibukai, VA or admirals(not necessarily win but at least pose a threat). Then we have a number of strong crew members. The ones that are right after the captains should be very strong too.

Then there are the remaining crew members of WB and the NW pirates. They probably have plenty of crew members capable of matching anyone below the vice admiral rank. Men of luffy's strength are not rare at all within this ranks IMHO but I do think they are stronger than a decent portion of the fodder around.

I honestly do not see how someone who is considered a rookie could have so much of a shred of a shot against a marines like the VA. All of them seem to have been marines for incredibly long times. They aren't rookies who might make names for themselves, they are very powerful, very experience marines who already have made big names for themselves. This guys, being right below the admirals, should be capable of handling the big shots around. The way I see it, they should be perfectly capable of leading attacks against powerful pirate crews, they are people who ANY pirate should respect and fear.

Luffy is only the strongest of the rookies but nothing more. He got lucky against crocodile(the guy did not cut luffy's head of properly as he should have) and he didn't actually fight moria one on one(he has taken a number of powerful hits and continues fighting as if nothing happened and his little oz jr thing proved how much firepower he actually has when he means it). Seriously, the only thing for which we have actually noticed luffy so far is that he recklessly threw himself exactly to where the strong guys around are(admirals, VA, shichibukai...). Had he actually listened to what people who matter have to say about the matter(WB, admirals, shichibukai, VA, jimbei, ivankov**yes, he matters far more than luffy could ever hope to even dream at this point**, or the WB commanders) he would be far back in the front lines defeating nameless marines with guns (since they actually aren't strong) and probably a few named but worthless fodder captains and commodores(hina, smoker, or the skeleton sword guy). Actually smoker could be a valuable asset(as in capable of making a difference in the war) due to his fruit but at this point it is a tad questionable.

RichardMNixon
December 13, 2009, 10:43 AM
Had a more notorious pirate crew been there the VA would have acted instead of letting lucci do the dirty work.

The 9 vice admirals. Greatest asset only below the admirals. Each of them is a marine veteran with decades of experience(chapter 0). Each of them has it in them to make a huge difference in the war. IMHO each of this easily has the strength to match a shichibukai or a WB commander. Garp should be considered to be on par or above admirals.

Shichibukai. Their title speaks for itself. Each of them is a massive asset to say the least and the absence of just 1 makes a huge difference. I think people tend to underestimate them because luffy got lucky though(I have my doubts about luffy even being capable of defeating crocodile if there was to be a rematch lol).

So when Lucci lost, the VAs didn't see fit to intervene? Nor when the captains were being torn apart on the bridge of hesitation?

There are a good deal more than 9 VAs, there's nine in this picture alone: http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/553/10-11/. If each could match a Shichibuakai, it would greatly reduce the significance of the latter.

You have no basis for saying Luffy just "got lucky." He was fighting Croc in the freaking desert where he's at his strongest. He smacked him down again recently when he tried to go after Whitebeard. They definitely fought with him as an equal as they rampaged through ID, he has a Shichibukai equivalent bounty, and he's responsible for humiliating TWO government strongholds. All he needs to do is win at Marineford and he has the Triple Crown of Piracy.

kkck
December 13, 2009, 01:05 PM
So when Lucci lost, the VAs didn't see fit to intervene? Nor when the captains were being torn apart on the bridge of hesitation?

There are a good deal more than 9 VAs, there's nine in this picture alone: http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/553/10-11/. If each could match a Shichibuakai, it would greatly reduce the significance of the latter.

You have no basis for saying Luffy just "got lucky." He was fighting Croc in the freaking desert where he's at his strongest. He smacked him down again recently when he tried to go after Whitebeard. They definitely fought with him as an equal as they rampaged through ID, he has a Shichibukai equivalent bounty, and he's responsible for humiliating TWO government strongholds. All he needs to do is win at Marineford and he has the Triple Crown of Piracy.

The strawhat pirates escaped shortly afterwards lucci was defeated. Not to mention they were leading the buster call at the time. I doubt they even had time for such a thing.

I thought it was said there were only 9 VA, I guess I will have to look into that. I still think the third main force after the admirals should be something to be considered, not something a mere rookie like luffy should be capable of fighting.

And how wasn't luffy lucky? Wasn't he only saved because nico robin got him out of the sand? Didn't he live the second time because a water shot of his miraculously fell on him after crocodile trashed him? And it is true crocodile is at his best when there is sand but it is also true he can turn any area into a small desert very fast using his power. And what about when he stopped crocodile from attacking WB? He merely sucker punched him while in gear second. I do think luffy will somehow take a part in taking down marineford but I doubt he will do so by taking out anyone who matters. IMHO he will simply be the one to free ace from the sea cuffs.

frontaLobotomy
December 13, 2009, 01:17 PM
Some VAs will be more powerful than others, while those who maybe aren't as strong will compensate with superior strategy and/or charisma. Aside from Garp, I would say the Buster Call VAs will be the strongest of them.
For the sake of the poll, I'll put them at Supernova level. As X-Drake was a Rear Admiral, it seems reasonable to put them there.

kkck
December 13, 2009, 01:19 PM
yet, drake is considered a rookie lol.

Lord Rayleigh
December 13, 2009, 01:38 PM
I thought it was said there were only 9 VA, I guess I will have to look into that. I still think the third main force after the admirals should be something to be considered, not something a mere rookie like luffy should be capable of fighting.

I agree with you about the VAs, they must and they HAVE to be strong.

And I help you about the number of VA. I began to do it after I did the same with the new world captains following WB.
It means we have currently at least 15 VAs in the marine, as Saulo is dead and others are not confirmed.


The Vice-Admirals
http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/7392/listeva.jpg

beastboy
December 13, 2009, 01:56 PM
hi is a pirate roockie, cause he is a recent pirate, I didn't get why the hell must roockies be weaker than the rest, after all, rookie =/= weak.. rookie means, new in something..
Inexperient.. thing that the Supernvae are (most of then) but by no means it means WEAK.. after all, Buggy isn't a roockie and he is weaker than Luffy.

so stop assuming that people are weak cause they are newbies...
There are people who lived a long life in the grind line, as pirates, and they're no where near Luffy's level...
So calling some one a Super Novae isn't saying they're newbies who must not enter in the grown up's fights... it means that they're too strong when compared with the time they've fight.... xD
Just remember, Luffy hasn't been in the grind line for more than 1 year.. and beat the crap out of crocodile... and don't say it was luck, it was destiny, remember black beard's words "there is no luck in destiny!"...


So the VA's are man, strong enough to be marines second strongest force, they're all old as hell (older than shanks at least), and they've more political influence, but over all, more power, than the rest of the marines, except the admirals, and Sengoku!

Three of them are strong enough to be admirals, when the actuals retire..
Admirals are monster, and so must be Vice Admirals.. just something vice admirals did:

-Saul destroyed 6 battle ships as if they were toys....
-Kuzan, froze him in an instant
-Momonga did a nice and clean cut at a sea monster
-Two giants got pwnd by WB
-Two vice admirals pwnd an half death Luffy!

So, at least 3 VA's (-garp) are stronger than Luffy, period)
Any VA can pwn luffy as a toy, nor an admiral can, but they can easily kill Luffy in this state..
If Luffy came to this war with all his crew with him, to cheer him up, after eating one of Sanji's best dishs, and with is health absolutly fine, he would put a good fight against a VA.. and would do a pretty battle against kizaru, but would loose bad, cause he can't even touch him...


C'mon... Luffy is weak when compared with big shots like admirals, yonkous, and yonkous best fighters... but luffy isn't the weakest character of the show....

He would be an important card, if he was in perfect conditions, so stop downgrading him...

:darn

kkck
December 13, 2009, 02:42 PM
When I say luffy is a rookie and therefore weak, I don't mean it in a global scale. I just mean that in comparison to people who matter. Obviously the supernova are far stronger than an average pirate crew. Thing is, right now the comparison is not against a normal pirate crew of fodder marines such as captains. The supernova have to surpass or at least eventually take after the previous generation. That said, those who the supernova have to match up too are not normal pirates but shichibukai, admirals, VA, yonkou and the NW famous pirate crews. Now, compared to ANY of them, the supernova are still less than fodder. When compared to them, the supernova are worthless little small rookies way in over their head.

I just can't see the VA being something luffy could deal with. It is very cleat at this point WB in his weakened state could go against anyone around, the commanders can match shichibukai no problem, then there should be plenty of crewmembers of some decent strength. Then we have the NW pirates. The captains should be beasts comparable to WB commanders and shichibukai. Then there should also be a few members who can be comparable to that too. And what would the WG have? Under the assumption that the VA are as weak as implied here(around luffy's level), you have to fight a force as massive as that with 3 admirals, sengoku and a few VA who are above the rookie level. The pacifista would make a difference but not nearly enough to deal with such a force. The VA are a force which even iva is shown to fear (and he was able to kick around the real kuma and even implied the the guy used to fear him). The VA must nesesarily be a force capable of dealing with shichibukai, WB commanders and NW pirate captains otherwise they are esentially screwed. QUite frankly I don't think things would have gone so differently for luffy if the guy had been 100%. It's not like he was that weakened since he was under the influence of iva's adrenaline hormones. I mean, the VA easily dealt with the kid when he was is gear two for crying out loud. IMHO at least the VA who specialize in combat should be very well capable of holding their ground against a top enemy provided said enemy is not WB or comparable to him.

RichardMNixon
December 13, 2009, 03:15 PM
Now, compared to ANY of them, the supernova are still less than fodder. When compared to them, the supernova are worthless little small rookies way in over their head.
The captains should be beasts comparable to WB commanders and shichibukai. Then there should also be a few members who can be comparable to that too.

I mean, the VA easily dealt with the kid when he was is gear two for crying out loud.

Except some of the the Supernovas did better against the Pacifista than the New World crews did. The new world guys were getting their shit rocked. The only reason the SN didn't make it to the new world was because Luffy hit a tenryuubito. Otherwise they'd be getting their ships coated and be on their way.

No, they didn't deal with him in gear 2. They fought him for a bit, he tried to go to gear 2, and he got shigan'd while he was doing so.

beastboy
December 13, 2009, 05:17 PM
Well... the only problem I'm seeing in your equation is that you are overstimating the New World crews...
Some crews, like Doma, Squardo etc might be something, but the majority of them are just weaklings who managed to get to the other side... if you look at it, if you're a bit stronger and smarte than buggy you make it to the new world with no problem...
Not with a big bounty, but you reach it...

So in my opinion, the new world is much more dangerous than the grind line because of the big aliances and groups that were formed there...

RichardMNixon
December 13, 2009, 05:38 PM
And how wasn't luffy lucky? Wasn't he only saved because nico robin got him out of the sand? Didn't he live the second time because a water shot of his miraculously fell on him after crocodile trashed him? And it is true crocodile is at his best when there is sand but it is also true he can turn any area into a small desert very fast using his power.

And when Luffy beat him to a pulp underground? How did he get lucky there?

Jiggy-Ninja
December 13, 2009, 11:56 PM
Except some of the the Supernovas did better against the Pacifista than the New World crews did. The new world guys were getting their shit rocked. The only reason the SN didn't make it to the new world was because Luffy hit a tenryuubito. Otherwise they'd be getting their ships coated and be on their way.

No, they didn't deal with him in gear 2. They fought him for a bit, he tried to go to gear 2, and he got shigan'd while he was doing so.
There's at least a couple dozen Pacifista at the Headquarters right now (assuming they weren't sunk by Akainu). On top of that they were all advancing together in a line, and the pirate's movements were restricted by the gigantic walls of ice, so they couldn't flank or get behind the PXes. The only option was to attack the PXes head on, and to do that you have to get past literally a wall of lasers. Furthermore, the PXes attacked from the rear, when all the strong guys were heading forward towards Ace.

On the Shabondy Archipelago, the rookies fought at most against one PX at a time, and basically had total freedom of movement to attack the PX at any angle. One "person" is much, much easier to fight than two, especially when you have multiple people on your side. One person can distract and draw attention, while the other attacks from a blind side. One person can't cover all sides of themselves.

At the Headquarters, the PXes weren't scattered in random 1-on-1 fights. They were moving together in a formation. The terrain around them, the formation of the pirates, the location they showed up, and the formation that they used were all carefully chosen and/or manipulated in order to make the PXes into an unstoppable wall of firepower. This is very different from Shabondy where the was only a single PX fighting at a time (which means there are no formations you can use), and there was no real control over terrain or the enemy's formation prior to the battle.

In summary, the situations at Shabondy and HQ are far too different, tactically speaking, to really compare them.

To expand on your Gear second comment too, don't forget that Luffy was seriously fatigued from all the fighting and injuries before that too. He was only just barely able to activate Gear Second.

Fox666
December 14, 2009, 07:34 PM
I think you guys are over-estimating Vice-admirals or New World captains.

Only a fewer vice-admirals are tough foes compared to Luffy. This is Garp, who refused the position of Admiral.

Don't you guys remember the Vice-admirals commenting about Luffy and Lucci battle? It was something like "If that Lucci, the one who killed the 500 foes back them, we can't do absolutely nothing"

The New World captains are tough. But they are FOLLOWERS. What makes the Yonkou big is they being capable of gathering guys like Marco as subordinates. Because in the pirate world, a strong guy would not accept to follow orders. That is why I say that Eustass Kidd is best than those guys.

If I would measure the bounties of all pirates and marines (as a hipotesis) based only in POWER I would say it would be something like this:

Eleven Supernovas: 100-300 million
New World Captains: 100-300 million
Yonkou: 500-600 million
Whitebeard commanders: 50-400 million
Shichibukai (current bounties are out-dated): 400-500 million

Admirals: 500 million (I am counting Garp as an Admiral)
Vice-admirals: 250 million
Rear-admiral: 200 million

Lord Rayleigh
December 15, 2009, 04:03 PM
I think you guys are over-estimating Vice-admirals or New World captains.
[...]
Don't you guys remember the Vice-admirals commenting about Luffy and Lucci battle? It was something like "If that Lucci, the one who killed the 500 foes back them, we can't do absolutely nothing"
" We can't do absolutely nothing " ?!
Of course, they can have : we've just seen how one of them, Momonga, that was at Enies Lobby, was able to use the CP9 art. The real meaning was obviously we do not have to do anything (as Lucci is already there, taking care of that).

Besides, they were not supposed to fight against Lucci, but Luffy...

kkck
August 01, 2010, 05:38 PM
I think the previous chapter gave us a pretty good insight on just how powerful the vice admirals are. Them being capable of using haki can be a big deal. Not only they would be able to hurt fruit users and get past any special bodily ability but also they would be able to increase the strength of their attacks. Clearly the are a monumentally powerful force, the best among them should easily be capable of fighting other strong people such as admirals or commanders. I don't think any of them would be weaker than a pacifista.

Lord Rayleigh
August 01, 2010, 06:20 PM
The marine doctor stated that all the Vice-Admirals were very aware of Haki and could use it. The most important thing he said is that the Haki normally develops through fighting or training.

So we can conclude that :

there really is some kind of Vice-Admiral level
the Kuja Haki is considered special because it develops faster/easier than classical Haki which develops after long time of fighting and training
classical Haki can somehow be used to rate people since it is the result of a fighting and training experience
Supernovae are far from Vice-Admiral level since they are not aware of Haki

Fox666
August 01, 2010, 06:37 PM
We can't tell yet which character know or not Haki. Hacchi, Arlong's crewmate, knew it back in Shabondy when Rayleigh appeared.

Probably a lot of character around know it, but are not like Shanks that is over-flowing with Haki and it's something you will clearly notice. Probably the Shichibukai pirates know how to use it like vice-admirals does, even we not realising it during Crocodile, Moria or Kuma battles...

Kaiser Will
August 01, 2010, 10:42 PM
The marine doctor stated that all the Vice-Admirals were very aware of Haki and could use it. The most important thing he said is that the Haki normally develops through fighting or training.

So we can conclude that :

there really is some kind of Vice-Admiral level
the Kuja Haki is considered special because it develops faster/easier than classical Haki which develops after long time of fighting and training
classical Haki can somehow be used to rate people since it is the result of a fighting and training experience
Supernovae are far from Vice-Admiral level since they are not aware of Haki


I agree with almost everything that you said, but the last one I don't.
Even thought the fact that you are aware of haki, this doesn't mean anything if the person you are fighting is physically stronger than you.
Example 01 (http://www.mangareader.net/103-2627-5/one-piece/chapter-520.html), exemple 2 (http://www.mangareader.net/103-2627-7/one-piece/chapter-520.html), and 3 (http://www.mangareader.net/103-2627-8/one-piece/chapter-520.html).
And more, Luffy who doesn't know anything of haki knocked out several Kuja warriors in his burst.

Roarchu
August 02, 2010, 12:52 AM
The marine doctor stated that all the Vice-Admirals were very aware of Haki and could use it. The most important thing he said is that the Haki normally develops through fighting or training.

So we can conclude that :


the Kuja Haki is considered special because it develops faster/easier than classical Haki which develops after long time of fighting and training



wait, how can we conclude that one?

Kuja's live their whole lives as warriors so it's not "faster" or "easier" right?

bittman
August 02, 2010, 01:08 AM
I agree with almost everything that you said, but the last one I don't.
Even thought the fact that you are aware of haki, this doesn't mean anything if the person you are fighting is physically stronger than you.
Example 1 (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/520/05/), exemple 2 (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/520/07/), and 3 (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/520/08/).
And more, Luffy who doesn't know anything of haki knocked out several Kuja warriors in his burst.

Lord Rayleigh made a specific note that Kuja haki develops at a much lower "level" in even common level soldiers, whilst other haki users are generally those who have discovered it at a much later stage in life and battle.

However, the point is still somewhat incorrect. Ace was aware, though without control, of haki in his flashback as a 10 year old kid. At this stage, he was only just able to overcome BlueJam with the assistance of Dadan.

That said, I am of the group who rate VA above SN. And I do think Oda is trying to set a "general" level for the VA's probably somewhere around the level of a WB division commander (so above a Supernova) by throwing out that line on haki.

P.S. This took me 2 hours to type because I'm at work haha

elitefox
August 02, 2010, 01:18 AM
I personally think it will be a range...

maybe from supernova up to close to admiral level, Garp obviously is admiral level and thus is an exception.

Lord Rayleigh
August 02, 2010, 05:15 AM
I agree with almost everything that you said, but the last one I don't.
Even thought the fact that you are aware of haki, this doesn't mean anything if the person you are fighting is physically stronger than you.
Example 1 (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/520/05/), exemple 2 (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/520/07/), and 3 (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/520/08/).
And more, Luffy who doesn't know anything of haki knocked out several Kuja warriors in his burst.
I can't see your links since OM has nearly come to an end. Anyway, what I meant was aware of their Haki - that is to say control it - and not only know that it exists. I think with the statement of the marine Doctor that (developed/mastered) classical Haki has become some indicator of strenght since it is a consequence of a fighting and training experience.


wait, how can we conclude that one?
Kuja's live their whole lives as warriors so it's not "faster" or "easier" right?
Every Kuja warrior and Kuja pirate can use Haki. It was shown that it was a very common thing in Amazon Lily to the point that Margaret was surprised that Luffy - who is only seventeen - was not aware of Haki.

On the contrary, the marine Doctor implies that a few number of marine officers - who had a long time of experience in the Navy - know Haki even though each marine trains and fights. Coby getting some kind of Haki at his age was also said to be an exception in the classical process to develop Haki. So I cannot believe that all the young Kuja people controlling their Haki are all exceptions without any reason behind it - Kuja Haki being different from the Vice-Admirals'Haki.

Besides, Smoker recognized when he was hit by Hancock that it was the Kuja Haki, which must imply that there are different kinds of Haki.

vagabond87
August 02, 2010, 05:28 AM
Besides, Smoker recognized when he was hit by Hancock that it was the Kuja Haki, which must imply that there are different kinds of Haki.

I think that Smoker "recognized" Hancocks haki as Kuja because he only know that Hancock is Amazon Queen from Kuja. He said something like "so that must be Kuja haki" because of that I think that he didnt have any contact with it earlier. Boa have kings haki and probably only thanks to it she was able to hit Smoker when he wasnt solid. In my opinion no other type of haki can do that. As we seen in war when Marco and Vista attacked Akainu his neck was cut very deep but he regenerated only saying that haki users are pain in the ass-they are doing some damage to him but less several than its visible. Maby Kings haki is giving 100% damage from attacks to logia users?

kkck
August 02, 2010, 09:33 AM
I don't get the impression smoker actually recognized haki..... My impression was that he kinda assumed it was there. It was sort of "holy crap, she was able to hit me! Is this haki?".

PS: ONEMANGA IS GONE! THE HORROR!

Ero-Sanji
August 02, 2010, 10:00 AM
The marine doctor stated that all the Vice-Admirals were very aware of Haki and could use it. The most important thing he said is that the Haki normally develops through fighting or training.

So we can conclude that :

there really is some kind of Vice-Admiral level
the Kuja Haki is considered special because it develops faster/easier than classical Haki which develops after long time of fighting and training
classical Haki can somehow be used to rate people since it is the result of a fighting and training experience
Supernovae are far from Vice-Admiral level since they are not aware of Haki


First of all I'm sure that I heard of the Kuja Haki being special but could someone remind me of where it was stated besides the comment from Smoker.

Anyway,
The doctor didn't say that it developed through training or fighting but that it appeared after it. How to further improve ones Haki is not known by now. E.g WB improved his Haki on the battle field from not being able to solidify Aokiji and Akainu to totally dominate the latter. That however was through emotion and we know that emotion is a great trigger.

Before Ace's death
http://read.mangashare.com/One-Piece/chapter-567/page007.html

After Ace's death
http://read.mangashare.com/One-Piece/chapter-575/page006.html

So, I don't think the level of ones Haki is good for rating, at all.

Is there a Vice-Admiral level? I don't think so. It's probably like the Shichibukai. Some being very strong while others are lacking behind. Either way they are a major force of power individually as well as a unit.

EDIT:

I don't get the impression smoker actually recognized haki..... My impression was that he kinda assumed it was there. It was sort of "holy crap, she was able to hit me! Is this haki?".

http://read.mangashare.com/One-Piece/chapter-559/page013.html
From this translation it seems he knew what it was but that he hadn't experienced or seen it before. Interestingly he speaks as if Kuja's Haki was different to the regular Haki.

Kaiser Will
August 02, 2010, 10:13 AM
Lord Rayleigh made a specific note that Kuja haki develops at a much lower "level" in even common level soldiers, whilst other haki users are generally those who have discovered it at a much later stage in life and battle.

However, the point is still somewhat incorrect. Ace was aware, though without control, of haki in his flashback as a 10 year old kid. At this stage, he was only just able to overcome BlueJam with the assistance of Dadan.

That said, I am of the group who rate VA above SN. And I do think Oda is trying to set a "general" level for the VA's probably somewhere around the level of a WB division commander (so above a Supernova) by throwing out that line on haki.

P.S. This took me 2 hours to type because I'm at work haha

I think that SN and VA is equally rated, well, not all of them, but you can say that there's one or others that have a higher level, for me 3 in SN (Kid, Luffy and Hawkins) that can manage to beat one, and since I don't know all the VA I can't tell very well, but the 5 VA that lead the Buster Cal seem pretty strong.
I mean, Luffy can manage to defeat one of them, thought he will be pretty exausted, and severely injured, since they can use the CP9 techniques, which are a pain in the... for the counterparty.
And you can see the images now that with this will clarify what I had on mind.
About the low level Kuja, I'm just taking this as a comparance so you can see the difference in power (Luffy beating the Gorgon sisters btw!).


I can't see your links since OM has nearly come to an end. Anyway, what I meant was aware of their Haki - that is to say control it - and not only know that it exists. I think with the statement of the marine Doctor that (developed/mastered) classical Haki has become some indicator of strenght since it is a consequence of a fighting and training experience.


Every Kuja warrior and Kuja pirate can use Haki. It was shown that it was a very common thing in Amazon Lily to the point that Margaret was surprised that Luffy - who is only seventeen - was not aware of Haki.

On the contrary, the marine Doctor implies that a few number of marine officers - who had a long time of experience in the Navy - know Haki even though each marine trains and fights. Coby getting some kind of Haki at his age was also said to be an exception in the classical process to develop Haki. So I cannot believe that all the young Kuja people controlling their Haki are all exceptions without any reason behind it - Kuja Haki being different from the Vice-Admirals'Haki.

Besides, Smoker recognized when he was hit by Hancock that it was the Kuja Haki, which must imply that there are different kinds of Haki.

New links to what I was referring to.
Yes, I know that the Kuja Haki must have something different, which btw is the source of my evidence, in which even if aware/mastered it's mean nothing if your oponent is physically stronger than you.
So my conclusion jumps to if one of the SN were stronger than a VA, he will be defeated no matter the fact that he can control haki.

Wisshard
August 02, 2010, 10:31 AM
During the War at Marinford, the Vice-Admirals fought Whitebeard's Commanders (except Jozu and Marco (unless you count Onigumo cuffing Marco)) and seemingly were pretty equal with them. Like others here, I don't feel that there is a Vice-Admiral "level" (similar to how Shichibuka vary from one another). But I feel the weakest of them should be at least as strong as the Supernovas and the stongest rivaling the higher echelon of the Shichibukai.

If all of them were of Silver Medalist tier, the Shichibukai's importance would lessen (which they already are, seing Akainu treating Jinbei with such contempt) but a few of the VA's could very well be on pair with the stronger Shichibukai's.

Lord Rayleigh
August 02, 2010, 10:59 AM
Anyway,
The doctor didn't say that it developed through training or fighting but that it appeared after it. How to further improve ones Haki is not known by now. E.g WB improved his Haki on the battle field from not being able to solidify Aokiji and Akainu to totally dominate the latter. That however was through emotion and we know that emotion is a great trigger.

Before Ace's death
http://read.mangashare.com/One-Piece/chapter-567/page007.html

After Ace's death
http://read.mangashare.com/One-Piece/chapter-575/page006.html

So, I don't think the level of ones Haki is good for rating, at all.

I think you misunderstood me. I said that Haki is some kind indicator of strenght. I've never thought that people's level could be compared with their Haki's level, like the Douriki.

I think that people's level can be compared with the Haki question - have they awoken/gotten Haki yet ? - since Haki is the result of training and fighting experience. The fact that they are Haki users or people who got Haki inside them - like Luffy - means that these people are above a certain level of strenght since strenght is - like Haki - the result of fights and trainings.


Is there a Vice-Admiral level? I don't think so. It's probably like the Shichibukai. Some being very strong while others are lacking behind. Either way they are a major force of power individually as well as a unit.
There is definitely a Vice-Admiral level since all Vice-Admirals have awoken and can control their Haki. A Vice-Admiral level does not mean that Vice-Admirals have the same strenght. It just means that under a certain strenght level, there won't be any Vice-Admiral. That's the meaning of a level ;)

Wolf D. Arius
August 02, 2010, 11:14 AM
i dont think you can use haki as an indicator for strength, some are born with a strong haki and some just dont. Yes, Haki "could" be learned, i think Zoro is a good example of that, in alabasta he felt the presence of the stones and the plants > i think this is haki aswell. But look at Aisa for example, she was born with it, has no fighting power at all and still she can feel everybody through "Mantra" (which was explained by now as a form of haki by the marine doc)

if i must discribe haki, it would be a level of heavy unconcious concentration / instinct, which can be improved and used by learning to follow and surpress your instincts, and using them combined with your conciousness.

Ero-Sanji
August 02, 2010, 11:54 AM
I think you misunderstood me. I said that Haki is some kind indicator of strenght. I've never thought that people's level could be compared with their Haki's level, like the Douriki.

Okey, sorry for misunderstanding I'm sure you can understand the uncertainty of this sentence: "classical Haki can somehow be used to rate people since it is the result of a fighting and training experience":p



I think that people's level can be compared with the Haki question - have they awoken/gotten Haki yet ? - since Haki is the result of training and fighting experience. The fact that they are Haki users or people who got Haki inside them - like Luffy - means that these people are above a certain level of strenght since strenght is - like Haki - the result of fights and trainings.

Yeah, the question however is what certain level of strength and does it apply for all of them? Remember some Kujas fainted while other didn't. I personally think that it is too early for such a statement since Haki seems to be so personal. I mean even the way to achieve it is different for some.


There is definitely a Vice-Admiral level since all Vice-Admirals have awoken and can control their Haki. A Vice-Admiral level does not mean that Vice-Admirals have the same strenght. It just means that under a certain strenght level, there won't be any Vice-Admiral. That's the meaning of a level ;)

I do get it, but I still can't really agree:darn
A level also means that on a certain degree it will stop and evolve into another level. The Kujas also have excellent control over theirs but they are still not menacing machines. The thing is we still know too little about the Haki.

Known powers of Haki;

1. Amplifying
2. Intimidation
3. Prediction
4. Negating
5. Listening

There haven't been a single character being able to do all of them yet and the chances of a Vice-Admiral being able to only one of them are really high and most likely, imo.

Lord Rayleigh
August 02, 2010, 12:20 PM
Okey, sorry for misunderstanding I'm sure you can understand the uncertainty of this sentence: "classical Haki can somehow be used to rate people since it is the result of a fighting and training experience":p
Of course, I understood that it could be misunderstood :amuse - by the way that's why I said " somehow ".


Yeah, the question however is what certain level of strength and does it apply for all of them? Remember some Kujas fainted while other didn't. I personally think that it is too early for such a statement since Haki seems to be so personal. I mean even the way to achieve it is different for some.
The idea is that classical Haki normally only appears after you've reached a certain level of strenght - that's the fighting and training experience the doctor talked about. And it'd mean that all the people who did not have any Haki experience are under a certain level of strenght and can be rated underneath classical Haki users.

Anyway, in Luffy case, this indicator should not work since he is a what I'd call a Haki rookie. And in the case of Kuja Haki, it's different since almost anyone can get it without an important fighting and training experience.

Fox666
August 04, 2010, 10:26 AM
A level also means that on a certain degree it will stop and evolve into another level. The Kujas also have excellent control over theirs but they are still not menacing machines. The thing is we still know too little about the Haki.

Known powers of Haki;

1. Amplifying
2. Intimidation
3. Prediction
4. Negating
5. Listening

There haven't been a single character being able to do all of them yet and the chances of a Vice-Admiral being able to only one of them are really high and most likely, imo.Well, we need to think about who else know Haki.

Probably Haki is used by a range of individuals. Shichibukai, Admirals, half of the Rear Admirals, half of the Whitebeard commanders, half of the Supernovas, etc.

Does anyone think it's not probably for Crocodile being an experient Haki user?

kkck
August 04, 2010, 10:29 AM
^I'd actually expect all of the commanders to be capable of using haki. The commanders were shown as people who have little or nothing to fear from people like shichibukai or admirals, I doubt they would not be capable of using it.

Fox666
August 04, 2010, 11:18 AM
Well, the Supernova except for Bonnet and Capone were not afraid of Kizaru. So it's no surprise of the Whitebeard commander also not being afraid.

But the commanders strength probably varies a lot. I would speculate that most of them range from marine commander to marine vice-admiral level.

kkck
August 04, 2010, 06:49 PM
Well, the Supernova except for Bonnet and Capone were not afraid of Kizaru. So it's no surprise of the Whitebeard commander also not being afraid.

But the commanders strength probably varies a lot. I would speculate that most of them range from marine commander to marine vice-admiral level.

All of the supernova were fleeing SA, they were dead scared of the admiral....

Fox666
August 04, 2010, 09:04 PM
Apoo, Drake and Hawkins were curious of facing the admiral, and they choose not to run from the island like Bonney and Capone. While Kidd and Law were leaving the island, they weren't really "scared"...

kkck
August 05, 2010, 12:05 AM
Apoo was curious but in turn he did a textbook hit and run. Running is not what someone not scared does. Drake and hawkins on the other hand did not have much of a choice. They fought because they had no other choice.

Uriel
August 05, 2010, 10:32 AM
Apoo was smart. If you see the level of an admiral and you've common sense to measure your enemy against you, you freaking run at Supernova level.

Zmsp
August 06, 2010, 10:24 AM
Well, sticking to the subject,since I couldn't possibly read all the theories posted so far,I think most people stick to much to the idea that a V.A has to be the next obvious choice for an admiral,in case one of the current admirals dies or retires.. Being a V.A means you're at the top of the Marines ranks, being only inferior in strenght to the admirals. Still,it's only obvious to think that in case of the death of an admiral,the strongest V.A will take his seat,wich I find wrong. They're necessarily strong enough to outrank every other marine,but that doesn't mean any V.A is strong enough to be an admiral.. There has been no reference to a tradition of 3 active admirals in the marines,so I think that other than a necessary promotion because of a pre-established hierarchy, both the admiral and V.A posts are given according to the strenght of the marine.

Still, ranking a V.A as a supernova, silvermedalist or Yonkou is unnecessary, they all got that post because they earned it,still, there's no reason to think they're equals, there might be V.As stronger than silvermedalists, V.As weaker than supernovas and even V.As equal to admirals,such as Garp, the only thing we know is that they all have control over their haki,wich puts them right at the top of the charts,since we can assume they can fight Logias, that's the beauty of it, in OP,there's no padronized levels of strenght according to the rank one holds, so it's a hard poll..

zelllogan
October 25, 2010, 02:29 PM
Thanks Zmsp.

I really want to emphasize this part:
here has been no reference to a tradition of 3 active admirals in the marines.

There are 7 shishibukais, 4 Yonkous but only 3 admirals. What have in common the extremely strong VA we have seen so far: they were proposed an admiral rank (Garp, Sakazuki & Kuzan).

We must not forget that we are in the golden era of piracy. Which means that potentially strong would-be marines actually becomes pirates (Luffy is a possible example). Plus, if marine were so strong, why did they need to associate themselves with shishibukais ?

All remaining VA are old ... way past their prime. So, can you be fired from the VA position because you're not as strong as earlier ? Do you seriously think that Tsuru is still one hell of a fighter ?

It could be interesting to list everything we know about VA (& I remove Garp from the lot as He was offered the admiral rank):
- VA is the first rank after Admiral
- They know "soru" (we're not sure they know the complete rokushiki)
- They are experienced & trained
- They know "Haki" ... but we don't know to which extent
- VA Lacroix was easily beaten by Oars Jr (only anime, don't remember ?)
- VA Ronse was easily beaten by WhiteBeard
- VA John Giant was easily beaten by WhiteBeard
- VA Tsuru did beat easily some weaklings
- VA Onigumo manage to put handcuffs to Marco when this one was off-guard & busy fighting Kizaru.
- VA Momonga had to stab himself in front of Hancock
- VA Momonga hit Luffy with a sword & didn't manage to kill him or wound him seriously enough to stop him
- VA Momonga was stopped by Do Flamingo
- Some VA have a devil fruit (tsuru, Onigumo ...)

Some opinions:
- VA didn't do anything worth remembering during Enies Lobby arc (Onigumo only did a comment about how strong lucci was ...)
- VA didn't do anything worth remembering during marine ford arc (Onigumo's handcuffs & that's it)
- The marine who did the strongest impression & was not an amiral : Magellan (not a VA)

My conclusion: if there are very strong VA, we didn't see them yet.

Edit: I don't want to do a conversation again about VA, so this will be my last post about VA. I just wanted to put some facts & give my opinion

chess4
October 25, 2010, 03:13 PM
Excluding garp we don't know how string the VA's are. I'm sure their strength is varies. I'm interested in seeing VA strawberry and the other Vice admiral with the cigar in his mouth. I'm sure their are a couple that could go toe to toe withan admiral for a lilttle while. I'm sur they will play a much bigger role in the New world. Oda couldn't show everyones strngth at the marineford batlle.

beastboy
October 26, 2010, 04:03 PM
When the Vice Admirals are broght into a discussion I can't help but amuse my self with this comments xD.

"Smoker could deal with all the VA's in the Marine Ford Arc" C'mon do you really mean it?
You don't have to base in any of the fights VA's had... they didn't shine against "WB" but again, who would? Its like judging my strength by going against the world heavy weight boxing champion.... >.>
Besides that the VA did nothing (that matters), Momonga could kill a Calm Belt sea king... I think those or in the same level as the animals Rayleagh said Luffy couldn't kill, and Momonga defeated him quite easily. In the war they didn't something "shocking" but they did well and survived pretty much without a scratch.

But if you use your head you'll know.
VA's are the marine main mobile force.
Admirals have to be standby. That can be seen when the Gorosei freak out when they discover Aokiji has left, or when Garp doesn't want to get promoted because he would lose his freedom.

So if the Marines main mobile force was together weaker than a PX (even being Kuma, PX-0 is not that far away from another PX) then I would say something is wrong.
Now if you think that all the admirals were once Vice Admirals, then when the Admirals die, another vice admiral will take its place. Is there any of you who think Aokiji/Kizaru/Akainu would lose against PX-0?
Then why do you think ALL THE VICE ADMIRALS would lose against PX-0...
Give me a break... its almost certain one of those guys was promoted to admiral >.>

This post fits into this discussion as well... so I felt like posting it here too!
BTW if its possible I'd like to change my vote to silver medalist level.

@zelll
OMFG I've never seen such a biased way of showing facts... You would be awesome as a tabloid journalist.

"- VA Momonga hit Luffy with a sword & didn't manage to kill him or wound him seriously enough to stop him"
I laughed, then we know about Aokiji:
-Managed to freeze the staw hats but they were easily unfrozen by a rookie doctor.
-Managed to freeze WB but it was pretty much noneffective.
-Froze a Giant Wave, whats so big, its simply freezing water, my freezer can do that...

Kizaru:
-Well he did kick around in shabondy but his kikcs weren't eneough to stop the SuperNovae
-He pierced Luffy through his chest with a laser but even so, he couldn't stop him...

And I guess I can stop the Sarcasm.

Lord Rayleigh
October 27, 2010, 06:49 PM
"- VA Momonga hit Luffy with a sword & didn't manage to kill him or wound him seriously enough to stop him"
I laughed, then we know about Aokiji:
-Managed to freeze the staw hats but they were easily unfrozen by a rookie doctor.
-Managed to freeze WB but it was pretty much noneffective.
-Froze a Giant Wave, whats so big, its simply freezing water, my freezer can do that...

Kizaru:
-Well he did kick around in shabondy but his kikcs weren't eneough to stop the SuperNovae
-He pierced Luffy through his chest with a laser but even so, he couldn't stop him...

And I guess I can stop the Sarcasm.

You could add several other examples to show how stupid their argument is :
Admiral Aokiji cut Luffy with an ice sword but didn't manage to kill him
Admiral Kizaru's kicks at speed light didn't even K.O Luffy
Admiral Kizaru's piercing lasers didn't kill Hawkins.
Admiral Akainu's magma punch didn't kill Jinbei nor Luffy
Fleet Admiral Sengoku's punch didn't even K.O. Luffy
Fleet Admiral Sengoku's blast didn't even K.O. any the Blackbeard Pirates.

kkck
October 27, 2010, 07:33 PM
^I guess we have conclusive, indisputable and moronproof evidence that not only VA are worthless fodder not worthy of the frames they have been in but also the admirals and the surpreme admiral too. How luffy was not made the pirate king by the fact that he was born is beyond me.

Lord Rayleigh
October 27, 2010, 07:42 PM
^I guess we have conclusive, indisputable and moronproof evidence that not only VA are worthless fodder not worthy of the frames they have been in but also the admirals and the surpreme admiral too. How luffy was not made the pirate king by the fact that he was born is beyond me.
If you didn't get it, what was said in the two posts before yours was sarcastic.

Fox666
October 27, 2010, 08:41 PM
It could be interesting to list everything we know about VA (& I remove Garp from the lot as He was offered the admiral rank):
- VA is the first rank after Admiral
- They know "soru" (we're not sure they know the complete rokushiki)
- They are experienced & trained
- They know "Haki" ... but we don't know to which extent
- VA Lacroix was easily beaten by Oars Jr (only anime, don't remember ?)
- VA Ronse was easily beaten by WhiteBeard
- VA John Giant was easily beaten by WhiteBeard
- VA Tsuru did beat easily some weaklings
- VA Onigumo manage to put handcuffs to Marco when this one was off-guard & busy fighting Kizaru.
- VA Momonga had to stab himself in front of Hancock
- VA Momonga hit Luffy with a sword & didn't manage to kill him or wound him seriously enough to stop him
- VA Momonga was stopped by Do Flamingo
- Some VA have a devil fruit (tsuru, Onigumo ...)You forgot when Doflamingo humilhated 4 Vice-Admirals (2 confirmed) in Mariejoya...

MonsterEnvy
October 27, 2010, 10:50 PM
You forgot when Doflamingo humilhated 4 Vice-Admirals (2 confirmed) in Mariejoya...

did the same thing to 2 white beard commanders 1 of them being Jozu a close to Admiral level fighter no one has been shown to be free from Doflamingo's power but Croc Im guessing because he's a logia

kkck
October 28, 2010, 12:03 AM
not to mention doflamingo caught the VAs in question off guard while in a meeting. We also have to consider we have no clue as to how strong doflamingo is and what we actually think we know about his fruit are mere assumptions at this point. What doflamingo did to the VAs is by no means a humiliation nor it shows in any plausible scenario or universe that they are weak.

beastboy
October 28, 2010, 03:19 AM
Oh Yeah, Dofla toyed with marines V.A.... the V.A's are weak....
Wait, he toys with everyone that is not a Logia...
Its Dofla that is overpowered not the VA's that are weak...
Besides who would expect to be attacked in a meeting in the middle of Mariejoa?

That only proves they are weaker than Sengoku... I mean Sengoku just said STOP and Dofla stopped :)!

Deo_df
October 29, 2010, 01:56 AM
Well drake didn't make VA he was the rank below and is now 2nd tier supernova, doesn't know haki as was pawned by kizaru (that said most people are pawned by kizaru). In terms of strength I think each VA could take out a pasifista, but nowhere near as easily as sanji and zoro can atm.

Jdapenao
November 07, 2010, 05:32 PM
Isnt more easy to say that it also depends on the Vice admiral itself, some of them would be closer to admiral level, as others would be way lower in power.

The most powerful Vice admiral has to be Garp, but he isnt as strong as he used to be, as he stated himself, he wasnt scared to go against Akainu and had to be suppresed by Sengoku.

Its the same thing with the Shichibukai, some are stronger than others, with Doflamingo, Kuma and Mihawk being the strongest of them IMO.

Comparing a title against another is not going to give precise information about the levels, cause all of them seems to be in different powers scales, is more useful to compared them individually.

MonsterEnvy
November 07, 2010, 08:45 PM
not to mention doflamingo caught the VAs in question off guard while in a meeting. We also have to consider we have no clue as to how strong doflamingo is and what we actually think we know about his fruit are mere assumptions at this point. What doflamingo did to the VAs is by no means a humiliation nor it shows in any plausible scenario or universe that they are weak.

hell we don't even know if Doflamingo powers come from a DF for all we know he could just have really strong mental powers

bittman
November 09, 2010, 12:36 AM
Isnt more easy to say that it also depends on the Vice admiral itself, some of them would be closer to admiral level, as others would be way lower in power.

The most powerful Vice admiral has to be Garp, but he isnt as strong as he used to be, as he stated himself, he wasnt scared to go against Akainu and had to be suppresed by Sengoku.

Its the same thing with the Shichibukai, some are stronger than others, with Doflamingo, Kuma and Mihawk being the strongest of them IMO.

Comparing a title against another is not going to give precise information about the levels, cause all of them seems to be in different popowers scales, is more useful to compared them individually.

Oh. My. God.

Someone understands power levels!? *collapses onto ground with tears rolling down cheeks*

And yeah, the only comparison that you should do with Doflamingo to anything that breathes is to rate him higher, but mind you I am a fan of pretty-in-pink-feathers. Doflamingo is above probably all Vice Admirals we've seen (this is where I'm meant to say "except Garp"...buuuuut...) and is pretty hard to rate in general.

Him and Kizaru are hard to rate because they emotionally give nothing away, meaning that to rate them we'd have to see them actually lose...

Anyway, on topic: exactly with Jdapenao. There are possibly Vice Admirals even Luffy can beat, but there are probably Vice Admirals even Luffy can't beat. Like any military system, fighting prowess only goes so far. Tsuru, for example, I doubt could defeat Luffy, but as an intelligence operative or strategist she may be second to none. Leadership counts for a lot in military structures, I doubt Kong is stronger than Sengoku or the three admirals given his age, for example.

And on Drake: Though a once-Rear Admiral, it's hard to know exactly how long ago he was indeed one. Also, Drake does not appear to be the type going around murdering civilians and I always considered him as one of the more important and powerful Supernovas though Kidd + Law seem to invoke fangasms. Still, anyone willing to pick a fight in the new world with Kaidou must rate his chances, so for all we know Drake's strength (pre-timeskip) could be, for all we know, indicative of lower tier vice admirals.

BlackHair
November 09, 2010, 03:31 AM
no one has been shown to be free from Doflamingo's power but Croc Im guessing because he's a logiaI don't remember Croco to ever been in Flamingo's palm of powers.

I agree with Jdapenao (http://mangahelpers.com/forum/member.php?u=135360). There is some sort of ranking within the VA, Shichibukai etc. Just cause they share the same rank doesn't make them all equals. On a example based on Bleach, I believe the primera espada would have no trouble beating the living shit out of nr9, yet that doesn't strip nr9's titel as a espada.

Aikidoka
November 16, 2010, 02:25 AM
VA is a rank, not a level of strength. Garp, who's as strong as the Admirals and Sengoku, is only a VA, while Smoker is only a Commodore, yet clearly up there in strength level. That said, I think most VAs (based on the requirements that you have to know Haki) can fall into a certain power range. It's just that, being a rank, it has more exceptions and outliers than most.

sh4dx
April 16, 2011, 03:42 PM
guys honestly the VA so far seem to be around luffy/zoro level pro TS.
Sure they are the second strongest military force under the admirals but yet most of them have done nothing except of Onigumo who handcuffed marco.
Maybe Oda is planning to show their strenght at the NW but considering that luffy before timeskip defeated enemies like croc,lucci,moria and enel(ok that was just because he was his natural element) even if we say he lost 2 matches against croc or that he had help against moria(that i think it's the same from moria's side because he had the help of oars/oz zombie so until he got the 1000 shadows and going crazy there wasn't a clear one on one and then he got beaten) the VA are nowhere near as seen from the meeting on marijoa with dofla toying around with the VA or momonga stabbed himself to avoid petrifying from hancock wich i am sure a really strong character wouldn't do it.
Even Oda said about the 3 great power etc etc.. and i see many believe that the VA are around shichibukai level(though it's clear that it isn't any specific level because some of them are stronger than the other) which i think it's ridiculous because there would be no point to have them if 2-3 VA are stronger lets say moria who is clearly the weakest.
Some of them sure seems like beasts like yamakaji,onigumo and garp is on his own league(even if he retired) but nowhere near the strenght of the strongest shichi maybe they can have a good fight OR even win only against moria.
My point is that if pre timeskip luffy had the power even with some help as some of you said to match up against some shichi,( lucci who was clearly very powerful villain it was clearly 1on1), i will be VERY VERY disapointed if in the new world Oda will start to throw more than 2-3 VA that can match up against the monster trio..I think it would ruin the whole "2 years training" if suddenly ex. momonga, shows up and give luffy or most likely zoro(both swordsman) a hard time.

Uriel
April 16, 2011, 04:00 PM
did the same thing to 2 white beard commanders 1 of them being Jozu a close to Admiral level fighter no one has been shown to be free from Doflamingo's power but Croc Im guessing because he's a logia
(Completely offtopic) Hm. That brings to me that if Luffy fought with Doflamingo because his skins stretches it wouldn't have that much effect.

sh4dx
April 16, 2011, 04:13 PM
(Completely offtopic) Hm. That brings to me that if Luffy fought with Doflamingo because his skins stretches it wouldn't have that much effect.

i think it's not so hard to understand that Oda decided to not "cut" croc head just to give them (dofla-croc) a little fighting scene.i believe that dofla most likely has CoA but Oda didn't want him to really "hurt/kill" croc who is a logia,ok that is just me and it's not confirmed that dofla has haki but it's like we say that mihawk don't posses haki (which is dumb) just because he didn't cut jozu as many said but Oda some chapters later did the same with Mr.1 when Mihawk first didn't cut him because he wanted to cut luffy but then cut him with his second slash and it's clear as he says "Daz Bones i assume" and hurt him

Uriel
April 16, 2011, 07:25 PM
i think it's not so hard to understand that Oda decided to not "cut" croc head just to give them (dofla-croc) a little fighting scene.i believe that dofla most likely has CoA but Oda didn't want him to really "hurt/kill" croc who is a logia,ok that is just me and it's not confirmed that dofla has haki but it's like we say that mihawk don't posses haki (which is dumb) just because he didn't cut jozu as many said but Oda some chapters later did the same with Mr.1 when Mihawk first didn't cut him because he wanted to cut luffy but then cut him with his second slash and it's clear as he says "Daz Bones i assume" and hurt him
I think we were discussing in the Haki thread about what could happens if there is two Haki users, the hypothesis lead me to think that the strongest Haki will have the effect desired. In this case, I assume Luffy will have the strongest will to not allow Doflamingo CoA affect him.

xeteboi
April 23, 2011, 01:49 AM
did the same thing to 2 white beard commanders 1 of them being Jozu a close to Admiral level fighter no one has been shown to be free from Doflamingo's power but Croc Im guessing because he's a logia

We didnt see that he manipulted Croc, all we saw is he is beheaded just like what he did to Oars cutting its one leg so we are not sure that he cant manipulate some logias..

Jorge D. Dragon
April 26, 2011, 11:50 PM
I actually can't understand why someone insist on trying to downgrade Vice Admirals according to some illogical reasons. Of course they aren't as strong as current Admirals, but if there is a need they should feel that position and I believe that actually even now only Luffy can beat Vice Admiral and the fight would be tough just like Luffy against Lucci or maybe a bit easier.
At least two Vice Admirals are confirmed to be Rokushiki users (I actually believe that all of them have quite a decent level of Rokushiki), all of them are confirmed Haki users and it's a requirement for them to know to use it to be able to become Vice Admiral. Also as I understand, some of them have DFs and some of them are also good swordsmen.
Also, take in consideration that might not have impressed readers with flashy moves as Admirals did, but only one of them was taken out. And it was John Giant who was taken out by WhiteBeard himself!
Also about Momonga stabbing his hand to protect himself from becoming a stone statue... Why it's a display of him being weak? Actually he was the first (exept for Luffy) to overcome Hancock's DF's power. We never saw any of other strong people overcoming her Df, so unless it would be shown that he didn't do anything special we should consider it a rather good feat.

kkck
April 27, 2011, 06:24 AM
I also think it is a feat on momonga's part, a mark of experience as boa said. seriously, boa's ability relies on taking advantage of lust.... Just thinking to yourself something like "she is cute" is enough for her ability to work. Momonga was not in the heat of battle, he did not have other things distracting him, he actually overcame his own lust. Heck, IMO it would not even be strange if boa was stronger than luffy is right now so what happened to momonga is by no means something to be ashamed off. The manga has made several implications of how stupidly strong the vice admirals should be to varying degrees. We should not expect them to be on par with admirals but an scenario where they could actually hold their ground is not too unrealistic for a few of them IMO. I do think a haki and rokushiki combination would be brutal too.

sh4dx
April 27, 2011, 06:55 AM
it doesn't matter if it was experience,the fact is that none of the strong chars will do something like that to avoid hancock's power.If you think that someone like dofla mihawk shanks admirals etc etc ever fight against hancock there is no way to do something like stab themselfes to avoid her power it's common sense.
Also it's common sense that a PRE TS luffy fought and won against 2 shichi and lucci,i don't count enel, so it makes NO SENSE for the VA to be stronger than croc or even moria who is a lazy and clearly the weakest shichi, after 2 years of training.I have said it again i think at most Oda will make 2-3 VA to be able to stand against the MT,not a fight to the death but a good fight.For the others i just believe he will show them fighting the other SH just to show us how franky,chopper etc etc have improved during these 2 years

Jorge D. Dragon
April 27, 2011, 09:09 AM
sh4dx
Actually it's only your opinion that noone of the strong characters will do better than Momonga, cause it was never shown that anyone could overcome Hancock's ability. Unless we will be shown that there are other people aside from Momonga who can overcome her ability we can say that he acted good.

Also why do you actually believe that Shichibukais as Moria or Croc or someone like Lucci are stronger than Vice Admirals?

sh4dx
April 27, 2011, 09:31 AM
sh4dx
Actually it's only your opinion that noone of the strong characters will do better than Momonga, cause it was never shown that anyone could overcome Hancock's ability. Unless we will be shown that there are other people aside from Momonga who can overcome her ability we can say that he acted good.

Also why do you actually believe that Shichibukais as Moria or Croc or someone like Lucci are stronger than Vice Admirals?

Because Oda said about the 3 great power,so it is not hard to understand that if the VA where around the shichibukai power(although it's not a certain level and some are stronger than the others) there would be no point to have them it's common sense i think.Also the fact tha hancock made momonga stab himself,or that Dofla played with the VA at the meeting of Marijoa are more than enough

Jorge D. Dragon
April 27, 2011, 10:08 AM
sh4dx
About Doflamingo... everyone can be caught offguard and it's not confirmed that those guys were Vice Admirals. Maybe one of them at best.
About Momonga... I'm tired of explaining that everyone that cares about women and their sexiness will be caught in Hancock's ability, so it's not a bad thing to stab his arm to avoid it. For now he is the only one who could evade her ability. Unless you give me any other person who cares about women and who did better than Momonga I totally won't agree with your point.
3 great powers... So if he said that 3 Admirals are the ultimate power of the Navy others are useless?:)
Also about Shichibukai... The majority of them don't impress me in any way. Mihawk, Doflamingo and Boa are good, even though I'd put Boa a bit lower, but others... Jimbei is a beast in the water, but on the land I don't think he is that great against serious fighters, at least he didn't show that in the War. Moria is useless as we know, Kuma is good, but now without his mind... he isn't as good as he was before. Crocodile is good until anyone spits water on him, cause in close combat even Arabasta Arc Luffy beat him.
Actually before time skip Luffy barely managed to defeat Lucci and Vice Admirals are actually the better versions of Lucci in Rokushiki, they also have. Only one of them was taken in the War and he was taken by WB himself and that's a proof of their strength.

sh4dx
April 27, 2011, 10:19 AM
sh4dx
About Doflamingo... everyone can be caught offguard and it's not confirmed that those guys were Vice Admirals. Maybe one of them at best.
About Momonga... I'm tired of explaining that everyone that cares about women and their sexiness will be caught in Hancock's ability, so it's not a bad thing to stab his arm to avoid it. For now he is the only one who could evade her ability. Unless you give me any other person who cares about women and who did better than Momonga I totally won't agree with your point.
3 great powers... So if he said that 3 Admirals are the ultimate power of the Navy others are useless?:)
Also about Shichibukai... The majority of them don't impress me in any way. Mihawk, Doflamingo and Boa are good, even though I'd put Boa a bit lower, but others... Jimbei is a beast in the water, but on the land I don't think he is that great against serious fighters, at least he didn't show that in the War. Moria is useless as we know, Kuma is good, but now without his mind... he isn't as good as he was before. Crocodile is good until anyone spits water on him, cause in close combat even Arabasta Arc Luffy beat him.
Actually before time skip Luffy barely managed to defeat Lucci and Vice Admirals are actually the better versions of Lucci in Rokushiki, they also have. Only one of them was taken in the War and he was taken by WB himself and that's a proof of their strength.

i never said they are useless.But try to understand it's common sense.2 years ago a rookie like luffy fought against 2 shichi and now after 2 years of training he would have problem fighting some VA?It would pretty much ruin the whole timeskip it's simple as that.Anyway there is no point to argue over this time(oda) will tell.And doesn't matter about croc weakness because not everybody knows it and even if the VA are haki users it doesn't really matter because we have already saw marco/vista(confirmed haki users) attacking Akainu and he didn't hurt even a bit

Jorge D. Dragon
April 27, 2011, 10:23 AM
It's just our view on power levels is a bit different, cause I don't think that we can call Vice Admirals as just "some". 10 years ago Akainu, Kizaru and Ao Kiji were "just some Vice Admirals" and practically all of the current Vice Admirals were with them 10 years ago. So it's obvious that these guys are pretty damn strong. They just don't have Logias, but they are still damn strong.

sh4dx
April 27, 2011, 10:40 AM
It's just our view on power levels is a bit different, cause I don't think that we can call Vice Admirals as just "some". 10 years ago Akainu, Kizaru and Ao Kiji were "just some Vice Admirals" and practically all of the current Vice Admirals were with them 10 years ago. So it's obvious that these guys are pretty damn strong. They just don't have Logias, but they are still damn strong.

well this is called plot device my friend just like with sengoku being admiral back then and garp don't accepting the rank of Admiral.It has nothing to do with the logia power, i didn't say anything like this.With your logic, how are we so sure that the current VA were also VA back then, maybe they were rear admirals,commodore or whatever you can't know for sure.

My point is easy as that

2 years before luffy beat 2 shichi
Oda said about the 3 great power
shichi > VA
2 years of training and luffy will have a hard time against the VA ? It would be ridiculous and bad writing from Oda and i am sure that in any case the VA would fight with the SH crew for example franky chopper etc, but with the MT not even a chance that there would be more than 2-3 VA that can stand against them

Jorge D. Dragon
April 27, 2011, 10:55 AM
Garp is the only exeption of one who is considerably stronger than his current rank.

About Logia it was my point to show, why Admirals are called the ultimate power.

Actually it was shown in 0 chapter that was drawn for the film Strong World. Plenty of them were shown in Vice Admirals and Admirals meeting with Fleet Admiral Kong, so we can assume that they were all the same rank. Of course not all of them were Vice Admirals back then, but still plenty of them were.


P.S. I'm not trying to argue just to have an arguement, but still I believe that we should wait and see if the Vice Admrilas will be taken out by Mugivaras or not. I actually believe that for now only Luffy can take out Vice Admiral, but I agree that only can Oda show us if that's true or not.:)

sh4dx
April 27, 2011, 11:06 AM
momonga and yamakaji are "plenty of them"? because it didn't have someone else except of them.And as you said we "can assume" so we don't know for sure their rank back then.If you think that all of the marines back then got promoted it makes more sense that most of the current VA held smaller ranks back then such as rear admirals or commodore etc etc.

Jorge D. Dragon
April 27, 2011, 11:39 AM
Chizuru was also there. Actually we can assume that 6 of the current Vice Admirals were Vice Admirals back then, cause only 4 quited being Vice Admirals for obvious reasons ( 3 of them were promoted to Admirals and Jaguar D. Soul was confined by Ao Kiji). All of them are about the same age, exept for Garp and Chizuru and maybe Dolmatin (it's difficult to descifer his age, cause he wears something like Garp weared in the begining of the series) and also Haki isn't developed in one or two years (with the exeption of Luffy), so it's more logical that most of them were Vice Admirals back then.

sh4dx
April 30, 2011, 03:43 PM
i am talking about the current VA.Leave the 3 current admirals,garp,sengoku out only momonga and yamakaji were shown.And with common logic if everyone back there got promoted then most of the current VA back then held lower ranks.
[hr]

Chizuru was also there. Actually we can assume that 6 of the current Vice Admirals were Vice Admirals back then, cause only 4 quited being Vice Admirals for obvious reasons ( 3 of them were promoted to Admirals and Jaguar D. Soul was confined by Ao Kiji). All of them are about the same age, exept for Garp and Chizuru and maybe Dolmatin (it's difficult to descifer his age, cause he wears something like Garp weared in the begining of the series) and also Haki isn't developed in one or two years (with the exeption of Luffy), so it's more logical that most of them were Vice Admirals back then.

well as you see i was right about most of the CURRENT VA held lower ranks as seen here Strawberry was a Rear Admiral at FT incident, and i think the same goes for almost all of them