Discussion Most Talented Shinobi [Archive]

zerocooldx

May 03, 2009, 07:13 PM

I think we are pretty far along in the series now, that we have encountered enough characters to sort of discuss a topic such as this. But keep in mind this topic isn't about power but rather talent. Just keep in mind that the most talented shinobi don't necessarily end up being the most powerful ones.

Now to avoid any confusion i'm going to roughly define talent as it pertains to this particular topic. Someone who possesses a high level of talent, in this case a shinobi, is an individual who is naturally gifted. What i mean by that is that this individual does numerous things at a very high level, not necessarily because of Kekkei Genkai or who they were trained by. But rather along the lines of natural ability, which really can't be pin pointed or clearly defined within a shinobi. Now obviously Kekkei Genkai, prior training and so now contribute greatly to the growth of a shinobi, but even they can only take you so far. Talent is an intangible quality that elevates a certain induvidual to uncharted territory. Thus allowing the shinobi to perform various/powerful jutsu as well as gain special abilities.

Hopefully the definition above helps to establish some sort of a plateau for this discussion. I want people to post who they believe in the most talented shinobi in the Naruto-Universe. Obviously this is a discussion meanig there is no real "right" or "wrong" answer. But at the same time please be as detailed as possible when posting your "most talented shinobi". Well "talk is cheap" so i'll start this off and maybe my example will help to better explain how this is done.
[hr]
Bio

Name: Hatake Kakashi (http://planetrenders.net/renders/albums/userpics/277038/Kakashi%20Mad%20Render~0.PNG)
Origin: Konohagure
Age: Around 29
Rank: Jounin
Family: Hatake Sakumo
Teacher: Minato Namikaze
Students: Uzumaki Naruto, Uchiha Sasuke, Haruno Sakura
Current Status: Alive

Elemental Nin-Jutsu

Water
-Water Dragon.
-Water Clone.
-Water Shark Missile.
-Water Wall.
-Water Explosion.

Lightning
-Lightning Blade.
-Lightning Clone.
-Lightning Hound.

Earth
-Earth Tracking Fang.
-Earth Flowing Wall.
-Earth Groundhog Decapitation.

Kakashi is one of the few shinobi known to "naturally" possess three elements. As well as one of the most all around "rounded" characters in the manga.

Tai-Jutsu
-Eight Inner Gates.
-Thousand Years of Pain.

Gen-Jutsu
-Illusion used on Sakura.
-Illusion used on Zabuza.
-Illusion used on Root members.

Fuin-Jutsu
-Evil Sealing Method.

Kuchiyose-Jutsu
-Eight Ninja Hounds.

Dou-Jutsu

Sharingan
-Charka Sight.
-Eye Sharpness.
-Illusion Creation.

Mangekyou Sharingan
-Kamui.

Other-Jutsu
-Chidori.
-Rasengan.
-Shadow Clone.
-Replacement.
-Transformation.

Abilities
-Keen sense of smell.
-Keen sense of hearing.
-Keen tactical mind.

Naruto states that Kakashi has senses just as sharp as Kiba as well as the mental capacity of Shukamaru. And was even nominated for the position of Rokudaime Hokage.

Reason
I picked Kakashi mainly because i think he is the most well balanced shinobi, as is demonstrated by the list above.

KnuckleheadedNinja

May 03, 2009, 08:06 PM

THM Nindo

May 03, 2009, 09:20 PM

Kakashi is a great choice.
Giving that he his good in everything.

He's great in Taijutsu, Ninjutsu, Genjutsu, Sealing, Summoning, etc.

And he has shown that he can be used in various kind of mission : stealth, research, tactic, assassination, etc.

And he also have one big advantage over others, he's got the Sharingan, one of the greatest Kekkai Genkai.

I think Kakashi is the most complete Shinobi. Not the strongest, but the most complete.

jodi

May 03, 2009, 09:29 PM

^^Some of the jutsu you listed for Kakashi are from the anime:
1. Grand Fireball (Kakashi can't use the fire element in manga)
2. Leaf Shadow Dance
3. Hidden Mist
Kakashi never use those in the manga.

Anyways, i don't think i can pick one ninja as the most talented of all. But Kakashi is definitely on my list. He is probably the most diverse and well balanced Ninja we actually know.

Kakashi uses fire skills in most, if not all, games of naruto too

I finished naruto thunderstorm for ps3 some weeks ago and he had two fire skills if I remember right

maybe we will see him using it after this arc... who knows.

Well, my vote goes for Kakashi... but I guess I would vote for Sarutobi too, he was Hokage for so long and didn't have a kekkei genkai... so I guess he was full of diferents jutsus and elements
[hr]
oh, he even had wind on a game too
I saw a lot of signatures with his finishing move that uses wind fire and water if I remember right

zerocooldx

May 03, 2009, 10:26 PM

^^Some of the jutsu you listed for Kakashi are from the anime:
1. Grand Fireball (Kakashi can't use the fire element in manga)
2. Leaf Shadow Dance
3. Hidden Mist
Kakashi never use those in the manga.

Anyways, i don't think i can pick one ninja as the most talented of all. But Kakashi is definitely on my list. He is probably the most diverse and well balanced Ninja we actually know.

The good thing about anime is that Kishimoto can expand on everything that happens. A manga can only be so long, as opposed to a 22-25 minute anime show which shows a ton of details. Now i did not include any of the jutsu that Kakashi used in either the "filler episodes" or the movies. Obviously because they don't connect to the main story line. For example the "Lightning Cat" jutsu that Kakashi used against Pain, that jutsu was never given a name in the manga. But i'm positive it will have a name in the anime. The anime chapters and manga episodes do go hand and hand, its just that the anime expands on the areas that the manga doesn't.

KnuckleheadedNinja

May 04, 2009, 12:12 AM

The good thing about anime is that Kishimoto can expand on everything that happens. A manga can only be so long, as opposed to a 22-25 minute anime show which shows a ton of details. Now i did not include any of the jutsu that Kakashi used in either the "filler episodes" or the movies. Obviously because they don't connect to the main story line. For example the "Lightning Cat" jutsu that Kakashi used against Pain, that jutsu was never given a name in the manga. But i'm positive it will have a name in the anime. The anime chapters and manga episodes do go hand and hand, its just that the anime expands on the areas that the manga doesn't.

I don't agree with that, anime and the manga don't go hand in hand. Anime make up shit that didn't happen in the manga, like those Kakashi jutsu i listed, and shouldn't be taking into account when discussing manga characters and their talent. Kishi doesn't have much to do with the Anime.

As for finding out the "Lightning Hound" name, we are going to find out in the next Databook. I'm sure the next one will come out before the Anime get to that part of the manga. The Databook is the only canon to the manga, the anime isn't. What happen in the anime doesn't really apply to the manga.

llmcduff

May 04, 2009, 12:30 AM

Hard work (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/01/opinion/01brooks.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=genius&st=cse) and determination always trump talent!

zerocooldx

May 04, 2009, 03:00 PM

I don't agree with that, anime and the manga don't go hand in hand. Anime make up shit that didn't happen in the manga, like those Kakashi jutsu i listed, and shouldn't be taking into account when discussing manga characters and their talent. Kishi doesn't have much to do with the Anime.

As for finding out the "Lightning Hound" name, we are going to find out in the next Databook. I'm sure the next one will come out before the Anime get to that part of the manga. The Databook is the only canon to the manga, the anime isn't. What happen in the anime doesn't really apply to the manga.

Like i said the anime expands on the manga, you can't expect the manga to show all the details in what? 18 or 19 pages. While the anime has 20+ minutes to better explain and further develop the story. Just reading some of the older manga chapters after watching them in the anime, it becomes very clear that the anime just develops the story more. It's not like the anime changes the story line of the manga. And yeah Kishimoto has just as much imput on the content of the anime as he does on the manga, that includes the games too. He has copyright and patten control over everything that has anything to do with the name Naruto. So its not like different people write the anime scripts, everything goes through him.

Leos~

May 04, 2009, 04:17 PM

Hard work (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/01/opinion/01brooks.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=genius&st=cse) and determination always trump talent!

Thx for the very interesting read. :D

Delbi

May 04, 2009, 05:19 PM

Weapon_X

May 04, 2009, 05:32 PM

For me it has to be Itachi. Great with speed, Genjutsu, Ninjutsu as well as Taijutsu. Great with his Sharingan, MS. He has definitely been a talented Shinobi. Itachi is an all rounder.

zerocooldx

May 04, 2009, 08:06 PM

For me it has to be Itachi. Great with speed, Genjutsu, Ninjutsu as well as Taijutsu. Great with his Sharingan, MS. He has definitely been a talented Shinobi. Itachi is an all rounder.

I don't know Itachi was waaay too Mangekyou Sharingan oriented in the series.

M3J

May 04, 2009, 11:34 PM

Kakashi or Sasuke hands down. These two have shown the most "shinobi" talent there is, and are the two most well rounded shinobi in the manga, they excell in all areas of shinobi combat and have no glaring weaknesses of any kind.

Sasuke most likely would have been beaten by Itachi had Itachi been serious though. Itachi looks to be one of the few with immense talent.
Could be the Itachi fanboy in me speaking though, since I think Itach was, is, and always will be > than Sasuke. >_<

Weapon_X

May 05, 2009, 03:54 AM

I don't know Itachi was waaay too Mangekyou Sharingan oriented in the series.

He was talented when he was young and was talented when he was 17-21. He was talented throughout.Turning a ANBU captain at the age of 13 :/ He had a great arsenal of Jutsus, he was an all rounder. Speed,strength, Taijutsu,Ninjutsu,Genjutsu as well as his MS.

Just imagine if we ever saw him fight someone seriously, he would win easily.

KnuckleheadedNinja

May 05, 2009, 04:39 AM

Like i said the anime expands on the manga, you can't expect the manga to show all the details in what? 18 or 19 pages. While the anime has 20+ minutes to better explain and further develop the story. Just reading some of the older manga chapters after watching them in the anime, it becomes very clear that the anime just develops the story more. It's not like the anime changes the story line of the manga. And yeah Kishimoto has just as much imput on the content of the anime as he does on the manga, that includes the games too. He has copyright and patten control over everything that has anything to do with the name Naruto. So its not like different people write the anime scripts, everything goes through him.

Kishi has little to no input on the content of the anime, games, or movies. The only things Kishi really have much input on are the manga itself and the Databooks.

And yeah different people do right the anime scripts. The anime scripts are written by the anime teams, not Kishi. Kishi does not write the anime script.

The anime is an adaption of the manga by Studio Pierrot and Aniplex, not an expansion of the manga by Kishi. Saying the anime expand on the manga is like saying a movie adaption of a book expand on it. The only expansion of the manga are the Databooks.

What happen in the anime is not a cannon to the manga(unless it actually happen in the manga, of course).

Destined_One

May 05, 2009, 07:24 AM

I say Minato, Itachi... why?

I know we haven't seen much of him, but one simple line says it all "he is a genius you only see once in a decade, someone like him hasn't been born in awhile"

He invented the rasengan, which took shape manipulation to its highest lvl... creating an A ranked jutsu with out the addition of an element.. (to be able to create something that advanced from scratch is definitely a compliment to his natural talent)

And Itachi, many have mentioned this before, but he developed at such an incredible pace... he was captain of the anbu at an age where most of the geniuses in this manga were barely walking up tree's... doing S ranked mission's whilst others were chasing cat's... he was sasuke's standard, and although he is extremely talented as well I think he is just edged out by his big bro...

And as for the fireball jutsu.. Im pretty sure, though not completely certain... Kakashi saying he is capable of using 3 elements (during naruto's elemental training)... which if he knew fire would contradict himself...

zerocooldx

May 05, 2009, 03:33 PM

Kishi has little to no input on the content of the anime, games, or movies. The only things Kishi really have much input on are the manga itself and the Databooks.

And yeah different people do right the anime scripts. The anime scripts are written by the anime teams, not Kishi. Kishi does not write the anime script.

The anime is an adaption of the manga by Studio Pierrot and Aniplex, not an expansion of the manga by Kishi. Saying the anime expand on the manga is like saying a movie adaption of a book expand on it. The only expansion of the manga are the Databooks.

What happen in the anime is not a cannon to the manga(unless it actually happen in the manga, of course).

I was simply making the point that Kishimoto approves everything Naruto related, which includes anime, movies, mangas, merchandise everything. Studio Pierrot, Aniplex, and such companies can only buy the rights to produce and publish Naruto related content. Which is exactly where copyrights and pattens come into play, Kishimoto reviews and approves all official Naruto content, and yes for the last time that includes the anime as well. Also your book and movie anolagy is completely backwards and it frankly makes no sense at all as it pertains to this topic. If one movie was made off of the entire Naruto series than of course it would not be an expansion, as a matter of fact it would condense the material. But we are talking about single episodes 20+ min long being made from single manga chapters 18-19 pages long, totally opposite from a book and a movie.

KnuckleheadedNinja

May 05, 2009, 11:36 PM

I was simply making the point that Kishimoto approves everything Naruto related, which includes anime, movies, mangas, merchandise everything. Studio Pierrot, Aniplex, and such companies can only buy the rights to produce and publish Naruto related content. Which is exactly where copyrights and pattens come into play, Kishimoto reviews and approves all official Naruto content, and yes for the last time that includes the anime as well. Also your book and movie anolagy is completely backwards and it frankly makes no sense at all as it pertains to this topic. If one movie was made off of the entire Naruto series than of course it would not be an expansion, as a matter of fact it would condense the material. But we are talking about single episodes 20+ min long being made from single manga chapters 18-19 pages long, totally opposite from a book and a movie.

Kishi doesn't approve everything. Yes he have a copyright to everything Naruto related, but everything does not have to be approve by him. Every anime episode doesn't go through him. The anime team have the right to make what ever they want. The anime scripts does not go through Kishi before it's made.

You would expect people to know this by now. Anime is not a cannon to the manga. Yes Kishi have a copyright to it, but he have nothing to do with the scripts and what the anime teams decide to add to the episodes.

Actually the movie analogy does make sense. A movie adaption of a book/comic is like an anime adaption of the manga. Just like in the anime, the directors of the movie usually add something to the movie that does not happen in the book/comics. Does that make what the director added true when discussing the book/comics?

If you think the analogy doesn't make sense because of it condensation of the book/comic, then take a look at a TV show(or cartoon) adaption of a book/comic. Just like the animes, the directors of a show adapted from a book/comics always add things that didn't happen in the book/comic. Yes the author of the book/comic have a copyright to all content related to the book/comic, but that doesn't make the show a cannon to the book/comic. All that matters is what actually happen in the book.

I will repeat this again, the anime is not a cannon to the manga. This much should be common knowledge.

zerocooldx

May 06, 2009, 12:06 PM

Blah Blah Blah you will figure it out eventually... -_-"

Anyways back to the topic, so who thinks Jiraiya was one of the most talented shinobi? I mean he did pretty much "invent" or "create" all of his toad jutsu, and he is one of the Legendary Sannin.

jdw

May 06, 2009, 12:35 PM

When I think of talent, many things come to mind like natural ability, etc. Sasuke, Kakashi, and some others, but primarily I think of creative jutsu inventing, and Minato and Orochimaru come to mind.

WaveBossa

May 06, 2009, 12:56 PM

The most talented ninja in the manga is either sasuke, itachi, minato, or orochimaru.

Jman, kakashi, naruto, neji, and others are talented, buy the four aforementioned ninjas have been touted as "the most talented shinobi" for what? 10 years now.

Yeah, not much of an argument there.

zerocooldx

May 06, 2009, 01:43 PM

Well being called a "genius" does not necessarily mean you are greatly talented. Being a genius refers to being able to do something at an extremely high level. Like Shikamaru's tactical ability, or Neji's mastery of the Gentle Fist, or even Orochumaru's scientific ability. Overall talent for being a Shinobi would involve being able to do various things at a high levels. As opposed to a genius who accels in a particular area.

But also giving supporting info. for your choices will only make the argument that much more valid. I mean we all know Minato was a great shinobi but we don't really know his whole "body of work" we just know tid bits. So plz try to give some credible references to whomever you choose to talk about, something similar to my example.

M3J

May 06, 2009, 08:35 PM

zerocooldx

May 06, 2009, 08:39 PM

Didn't read where it was said he did. It was shown that he wasn't as talented when he was younger though.

But he ended up being one of the Legendary Sannin as well as pretty much creating a new/unique style of jutsu. Just throwing ideas out there, oh and he did write books!!!!

Delbi

May 06, 2009, 09:24 PM

Sasuke most likely would have been beaten by Itachi had Itachi been serious though. Itachi looks to be one of the few with immense talent.
Could be the Itachi fanboy in me speaking though, since I think Itach was, is, and always will be > than Sasuke. >_<

Probably, I think Itachi is the strongest person in the manga, but he isn't the most talented shinobi, but imo, the most powerful warrior in the manga.

Raizen

May 07, 2009, 04:18 PM

Minato is definitely the most talented. Even at a young age he created multiple techniques that surpasses almost all.
His rasengan is the highest level of shape manipulation and it is a backdrop to add other elements to it to make the ultimate attack
Hiraishin- i think this is self explanatory
Death reaper Seal- one of the stronges tif not most powerful technique EVER. Capable of beating the fox, trapping it, sealing souls, etc

wildG

May 08, 2009, 09:36 AM

Death reaper Seal- one of the stronges tif not most powerful technique EVER. Capable of beating the fox, trapping it, sealing souls, etc

haha. This technique is light years away from beating the kyuubi... It can only subdue it. The only thing it needs is to perform some de-sealing seals just like orochimaru messed up a bit with and then bum! The kyuubi is back. In other words madara hasn't been beaten aswell, since hes still alive..

jdw

May 08, 2009, 09:47 AM

haha. This technique is light years away from beating the kyuubi... It can only subdue it. The only thing it needs is to perform some de-sealing seals just like orochimaru messed up a bit with and then bum! The kyuubi is back. In other words madara hasn't been beaten aswell, since hes still alive..

It can easily beat the fox.

Two people set out to kill kyuubi, one has this jutsu, other has a sword
Shinobi 1 seals kyuubi in an infant of an enemy, a child who would have been killed anyway. Shinobi 1 dies in deal with death god.
Shinobi two smothers or beheads child, kyuubi dies. The end. Or you could seal the Kyuubi in a person who is about to die of old age. Kyuubi defeated. Or you could just seal it completely in the death god and not leave any behind for your own child. The end

zerocooldx

May 08, 2009, 10:28 AM

It can easily beat the fox.

Two people set out to kill kyuubi, one has this jutsu, other has a sword
Shinobi 1 seals kyuubi in an infant of an enemy, a child who would have been killed anyway. Shinobi 1 dies in deal with death god.
Shinobi two smothers or beheads child, kyuubi dies. The end. Or you could seal the Kyuubi in a person who is about to die of old age. Kyuubi defeated. Or you could just seal it completely in the death god and not leave any behind for your own child. The end

If it was that simple than why didn't Minato just seal the Kyuubi in a dying Shinobi and then let them die or take their life?

jdw

May 08, 2009, 10:35 AM

If it was that simple than why didn't Minato just seal the Kyuubi in a dying Shinobi and then let them die or take their life?

Even if he had done that, Minato would have died because it was his jutsu. Furthermore, because he wanted to leave it behind for his son (he didn't say he was incapable of sealing it all in the death god), because a special power would be needed to defeat madara:

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/440/08/

2 reasons, straight from Yondaime himself :)

zerocooldx

May 08, 2009, 10:55 AM

Even if he had done that, Minato would have died because it was his jutsu. Furthermore, because he wanted to leave it behind for his son (he didn't say he was incapable of sealing it all in the death god), because a special power would be needed to defeat madara:

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/440/08/

2 reasons, straight from Yondaime himself :)

Yet Naruto himself said he will never rely on the Kyuubi's power...

jdw

May 08, 2009, 10:57 AM

Yet Naruto himself said he will never rely on the Kyuubi's power...

That is entirely beside the point of what his father did, why he did it, and the capability of the technique. Also, I think he will reconsider now that his father has explained the stakes and why he has Kyuubi :)

zerocooldx

May 08, 2009, 11:03 AM

jdw

May 08, 2009, 11:11 AM

First off you can't "kill" chakra, so sealing it is the only other method of stopping it. And second Sage Mode was tought to Naruto so that he would not need to use the Kyuubi. So that he would have his own power to fight with. Besides as we all saw Naruto can't even come remotly close to controlling the Kyuubi, and again he said he wont ever use that power. Mainly because all it does is cause destruction and pain, the two things Naruto wants to end, see where this is going.

We were primarily discussing "beaten," not killed, so it is appropriate to say it would be beaten by the seal, but it can also be killed so I laid it out. But anyway it was said long ago that if the host dies so does the beast. when Naruto almost died v. Kabuto, Kyuubi was crying in the darkness. Dead still means dead. It doesn't mean it can't be resurrected or something, but dead means dead. Additionally, he was taught sage mode because it is powerful and because he is thought to be the child of the prophecy, at no point did Pa say it was so that he wouldn't use Kyuubi. At the time he accepted, he wanted to avenge Jiraiya and accepted to beat Pain. He didn't say "every level up I get in life is so that I won't use kyuubi."

It is true that Naruto said before that he would not use Kyuubi, but as recent events have shown, he was willing to go completely 9-tailed until his dad stopped him. And though he said he would not go Kyuubi, it was because of the danger to those around, etc, if he can control it the reason not to use it ceases to exist. That all took place before his talk with his father, who entrusted Kyuubi to him to defeat a certain man. If you think Naruto will not use it ever again, that is fine.

That Naruto was unable to control Kyuubi in the past does not mean that he has no hope of controlling it in the future.

zerocooldx

May 08, 2009, 11:25 AM

We were primarily discussing "beaten," not killed, so it is appropriate to say it would be beaten by the seal, but it can also be killed so I laid it out. But anyway it was said long ago that if the host dies so does the beast. when Naruto almost died v. Kabuto, Kyuubi was crying in the darkness. Dead still means dead. It doesn't mean it can't be resurrected or something, but dead means dead. Additionally, he was taught sage mode because it is powerful and because he is thought to be the child of the prophecy, at no point did Pa say it was so that he wouldn't use Kyuubi.

It is true that Naruto said before that he would not use Kyuubi, but as recent events have shown, he was willing to go completely 9-tailed until his dad stopped him. And though he said he would not go Kyuubi, it was because of the danger to those around, etc, if he can control it the reason not to use it ceases to exist. That all took place before his talk with his father, who entrusted Kyuubi to him to defeat a certain man. If you think Naruto will not use it ever again, that is fine.

That Naruto was unable to control Kyuubi in the past does not mean that he has no hope of controlling it in the future.

One vs. One the Kyuubi or any other Bijuu for that fact, can't be killed, they are just large masses of chakra. Naruto did not "willingly" use the Kyuubi's power, he snapped after seeing Hinata "die". Which is exactly how he has used the Kyuubi's power almost everyother time as well, through his anger. It has nothing to do with him wanting to use that power, its more of him loosing control of his temper.

Ok i guess i'll play along, lets say Naruto decides to use the Kyuubi's power, which just causes destruction and pain. But he wants to use and control that power because it will help bring peace to the world. He will be strong enough to end all wars and all hatred and unite people. Well um isen't that what Nagato is trying to do right now? Use/control a power that causes pain and destruction to bring peace, that being the Bijuu of course. And isen't Naruto opposing him for that very same fact?

Also on topic, Minato was talented i suppose, but we never really got to see him fight, all we ever saw of him were tid bits and talk of his power. And for all we know he only posessed 4-5 jutsu, because we don't have any more info. on him. So when i say a whole "body of work" i'm talking about their entire resume.

jdw

May 08, 2009, 11:33 AM

One vs. One the Kyuubi or any other Bijuu for that fact, can't be killed, they are just large masses of chakra. Naruto did not "willingly" use the Kyuubi's power, he snapped after seeing Hinata "die". Which is exactly how he has used the Kyuubi's power almost everyother time as well, through his anger. It has nothing to do with him wanting to use that power, its more of him loosing control of his temper.

Ok i guess i'll play along, lets say Naruto decides to use the Kyuubi's power, which just causes destruction and pain. But he wants to use and control that power because it will help bring peace to the world. He will be strong enough to end all wars and all hatred and unite people. Well um isen't that what Nagato is trying to do right now? Use/control a power that causes pain and destruction to bring peace, that being the Bijuu of course. And isen't Naruto opposing him for that very same fact?

Also on topic, Minato was talented i suppose, but we never really got to see him fight, all he ever saw of him were tid bits and talk of his power. And for all we know he only posessed 4-5 jutsu, because we don't have any more info. on him. So when i say a whole "body of work" i'm talking about their entire resume.

Yes, he snapped at first, but later he was about to willingly and consciously remove the final seal. The same "embodiment" of Naruto had a lucid convo with his father.

Now, as for the bijuu being unable to be killed one v. one, you may be right and I am willing to accept it. Care to share the panels with me?

To bring this back on topic of talent, like you said, I firmly believe that Yondaime's jutsu is capable of beating the Kyuubi. I also believe it is capable of putting the Kyuubi into a state where it can be killed fairly easily. That, to me, shows a lot of talent. I think Naruto will have the talent to use the Kyuubi, like Bee is able to use hachibi, and like Yugito was able to use nibi. I do not think that he is destined to lead to destruction if he uses the Kyuubi. I think recent events have shown him that he can embrace the thought of using Kyuubi but he must be mentally strong and use power responsibly.

The Flash

May 08, 2009, 11:53 AM

Even if he had done that, Minato would have died because it was his jutsu. Furthermore, because he wanted to leave it behind for his son (he didn't say he was incapable of sealing it all in the death god), because a special power would be needed to defeat madara:

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/440/08/

2 reasons, straight from Yondaime himself :)

Another reason why people should pay more attention to the manga :sarc

Raizen

May 08, 2009, 03:43 PM

zerocooldx

May 08, 2009, 04:07 PM

How did it not beat teh fox?? It captured and sealed it away. Minato only split the chakra of the fox b.c he was saving it for his son so his son could accomplish something. Minato did beat teh fox with that

Seeing as the Kyuubi is "alive", whether that was by Minato's grace or not he did manage to suppress it's power. Also as Minato said Madara was even ahead (suppress) of him with his plan of attack and what not. Plus being able to suppress, or better yet control a Bijuu goes way back to Hashirama and Madara. I think we can all agree that controlling something is far more difficult then sealing it away and leaving it. And Hashirama somehow had several Bijuu under his control, which is crazy to even think about. He also did beat Madara, he didn't kill him but he did win. I still consider Hashirama the "strongest" Konoha shinobi, which is just my own opinion.

Raizen

May 08, 2009, 04:16 PM

There is a difference between fighting a beast than just controlling it with a special gift. I like to see either madara or the 1st fight the 9-tails without controlling it
[hr]
And the 1st can;t be the strongest b.c the 3rd is already stated as being stronger than him. That means the 3rd is even more god like than ever

zerocooldx

May 08, 2009, 04:21 PM

There is a difference between fighting a beast than just controlling it with a special gift. I like to see either madara or the 1st fight the 9-tails without controlling it
<hr noshade size="1">
And the 1st can;t be the strongest b.c the 3rd is already stated as being stronger than him. That means the 3rd is even more god like than ever

You have to possess and master a high level of power in order to control something. Also i highly doubt Madara or Hashirama accidently stumbled on to the power to control Bijuu. They didn't just wake up one day and have a new power, i'm sure they both fought numerous Bijuu. It takes great power to control great power. I don't remember Sarutobi saying he was stronger than Hashirama, but like i said it's just my oppinion based off of what we know of Hashirama.

jdw

May 08, 2009, 04:21 PM

Seeing as the Kyuubi is "alive", whether that was by Minato's grace or not he did manage to suppress it's power. Also as Minato said Madara was even ahead (suppress) of him with his plan of attack and what not. Plus being able to suppress, or better yet control a Bijuu goes way back to Hashirama and Madara. I think we can all agree that controlling something is far more difficult then sealing it away and leaving it. And Hashirama somehow had several Bijuu under his control, which is crazy to even think about. He also did beat Madara, he didn't kill him but he did win. I still consider Hashirama the "strongest" Konoha shinobi, which is just my own opinion.

Being alive doesn't mean it wasn't beaten. Every fight doesn't have to result in a kill for a win. At the end of the VOTE fight between Sasuke and Naruto, Sasuke had won but he let naruto live.

Controlling something is harder than sealing it? Not in every case. Here I think it is harder to develop a jutsu that costs your life (you have to hope it works because it isn't like you get a bunch of test tries) to seal a beast than it is to use a genetic gift to control the same beast.

zerocooldx

May 08, 2009, 04:26 PM

Being alive doesn't mean it wasn't beaten. Every fight doesn't have to result in a kill for a win. At the end of the VOTE fight between Sasuke and Naruto, Sasuke had won but he let naruto live.

Controlling something is harder than sealing it? Not in every case. Here I think it is harder to develop a jutsu that costs your life (you have to hope it works because it isn't like you get a bunch of test tries) to seal a beast than it is to use a genetic gift to control the same beast.

Well a lot more people can seal Bijuu than control them. Thats why all of the nine Bijuu were sealed away within humans. If it was easy to control them than there would be no need for the sealing jutsu. Unlike in Hashirama's time, where he had no need to seal them regardless of having a gift or not, he was just that superior even 80+ years after his death.

Raizen

May 08, 2009, 04:26 PM

You have to possess and master a high level of power in order to control something. Also i highly doubt Madara or Hashirama accidently stumbled on to the power to control Bijuu. They didn't just wake up one day and have a new power, i'm sure they both fought numerous Bijuu. It takes great power to control great power. I don't remember Sarutobi saying he was stronger than Hashirama, but like i said it's just my oppinion based off of what we know of Hashirama.
Both madara and the 1st were born with the power to control bijuu. So not that special
Minato dind't have that luxury and still he managed to beat the fox

AS for the strength of the 3rd, he is stated to be the strongest hokage in both the manga and the DB

zerocooldx

May 08, 2009, 04:31 PM

Both madara and the 1st were born with the power to control bijuu. So not that special
Minato dind't have that luxury and still he managed to beat the fox

AS for the strength of the 3rd, he is stated to be the strongest hokage in both the manga and the DB

Minato was said to be the strongest, and also what good is a power if you can't develop it? Not all Uchiha's could control the Bijuu, only the strongest could, just like only the strongest shinobi can do certain things. Look at Naruto he has no natural gift yet he can do things other shinobi can't, even ones with gifts.

jdw

May 08, 2009, 04:34 PM

Well a lot more people can seal Bijuu than control them. Thats why all of the nine Bijuu were sealed away within humans. If it was easy to control them than there would be no need for the sealing jutsu. Unlike in Hashirama's time, where he had no need to seal them regardless of having a gift or not, he was just that superior even 80+ years after his death.

I agree that it isn't easy for everyday nins to control the Kyuubi. However, a genetic gift of the sharingan removes that difficulty. So, for ordinary people it may be harder to control than to seal, but for uchihas who have the genetic gift, controlling may be as easy or easier than sealing.

zerocooldx

May 08, 2009, 04:37 PM

I agree that it isn't easy for everyday nins to control the Kyuubi. However, a genetic gift of the sharingan removes that difficulty. So, for ordinary people it may be harder to control than to seal, but for uchihas who have the genetic gift, controlling may be as easy or easier than sealing.

True, but the overall view of Sealing vs. Controlling i would have to say control would be a little bit harder. On a level playing field of course, with gifts and what not aside.

Raizen

May 11, 2009, 04:01 PM

Minato was said to be the strongest, and also what good is a power if you can't develop it? Not all Uchiha's could control the Bijuu, only the strongest could, just like only the strongest shinobi can do certain things. Look at Naruto he has no natural gift yet he can do things other shinobi can't, even ones with gifts.
I don't get what ur point is.

I merely counter ur argument that "b.c the 1st and madara can control the 9-tails while Minato died sealing it means they are stronger than him" wrong

zerocooldx

May 11, 2009, 07:10 PM

I don't get what ur point is.

I merely counter ur argument that "b.c the 1st and madara can control the 9-tails while Minato died sealing it means they are stronger than him" wrong

Guess you missed the part where i said that it was my personal opinion, and also Minato himself tells Naruto that Madara basically played him. Minato says Madara saw through everything that he tried to do, which i'm guessing involved a lot more than just Minato sealing the Kyuubi. But just saying, Minato lost to the Kyuubi while Hashirama beat both the Kyuubi and Madara, now granted Hashirama had help but its not like Madara was alone either.

jodi

May 11, 2009, 07:13 PM

Minato was said to be the strongest, and also what good is a power if you can't develop it? Not all Uchiha's could control the Bijuu, only the strongest could, just like only the strongest shinobi can do certain things. Look at Naruto he has no natural gift yet he can do things other shinobi can't, even ones with gifts.

he had a gift when he was born
unlimited stamina and chakra is very good, don't u think?

imagine a kakashi-type with that sort of gift.

zerocooldx

May 11, 2009, 07:18 PM

he had a gift when he was born
unlimited stamina and chakra is very good, don't u think?

imagine a kakashi-type with that sort of gift.

Everyone has some type of a special gift, Shikamaru's intelligence, Sakura's strength, Shino's bug ability, Neji/Hinata Byakugan. Now granted some of those are blood line traits but again what good is any gift is you can't master it. But if just having special gifts alone was that important than the Uchiha clan could technically rule the shinobi world.

jdw

May 11, 2009, 07:28 PM

Everyone has some type of a special gift, Shikamaru's intelligence, Sakura's strength, Shino's bug ability, Neji/Hinata Byakugan. Now granted some of those are blood line traits but again what good is any gift is you can't master it. But if just having special gifts alone was that important than the Uchiha clan could technically rule the shinobi world.

Ten Ten? What is her gift?

Having a special gift would not mean uchiha would just rule the world, but it would give them a leg up on those who lacks gifts. Those without gifts may be able to win based on numbers in some cases. Still, there may be others with gifts who could oppose them :)

zerocooldx

May 11, 2009, 07:32 PM

Ten Ten? What is her gift?

Long rage combat? But don't look at me it's not my fault Kishimito decided to only focus on like what 5 or 6 characters in Shippuden.

I'm just saying no matter what kind of a gift you have if you don't explore or master it, its not as big of a weapon as people make it out to be.

Forever_Melody

May 12, 2009, 01:06 PM

There is a saying, "nobody's good at everything, but everybody's good at something" so yes, even Iruka and Tenten must have SOME kind of redeeming quality, even if those qualities are not combat related(ex: maybe Tenten is a good cook for all I care lol :p).

As for talented, it's hard to define... In this manga talent is highly correlated with strength, which in real life, it is, but less so. Many talented people are very successful, but some work on luck, hard work and other things.

If I had to rank talent on being a shinobi, I suppose I'd pick...
- Itachi: I mean, he's basically been described as the epitome of a genius so no rela need to add to that.
- Minato: see the above. He's had just about loads of hype at being really good at being a ninja.
- Kakashi: while at adult form he may not be of the same caliber as the above two, his progression as a youth showed talent as well and the ability to both incorporate and use a gift that is not innately his is quite the achievement. He even did what even Itachi thought he couldn't do i.e. achieve the MS.

Raizen

May 13, 2009, 01:54 PM

Guess you missed the part where i said that it was my personal opinion, and also Minato himself tells Naruto that Madara basically played him. Minato says Madara saw through everything that he tried to do, which i'm guessing involved a lot more than just Minato sealing the Kyuubi. But just saying, Minato lost to the Kyuubi while Hashirama beat both the Kyuubi and Madara, now granted Hashirama had help but its not like Madara was alone either.
I think u interpreted that wrong. that is not what he meant. Here is what pat and i think
http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1331345&postcount=156

Also, u seem to keep comparing their feats with the 9-tails as a measurement. but the thing is they both approached it 2 different ways. Minato didn't have an innate skills that allowed him to tame the beast, He actually had to fight it. madara and the 1st didn't beat the 9-tails technically b/c they didn't fight it.

zerocooldx

May 13, 2009, 02:45 PM

I think u interpreted that wrong. that is not what he meant. Here is what pat and i think
http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1331345&postcount=156

Also, u seem to keep comparing their feats with the 9-tails as a measurement. but the thing is they both approached it 2 different ways. Minato didn't have an innate skills that allowed him to tame the beast, He actually had to fight it. madara and the 1st didn't beat the 9-tails technically b/c they didn't fight it.

Hashirama had to fight the Kyuubi while it was under Madara's control. And he beat both of them, didn't kill them but he won. And i'm pretty sure Madara had to have some type of a conflict with the Kyuubi. I highly doubt that he just walked up to the Kyuubi and bam! he had control over it. Also Hashirama and Minato both fought the Kyuubi, Hashirama won against it while Minato sealed half of it away. Hashirama had a gift, just like Minato posessed the Flying Thinder God jutsu, which apparently made him into the strongest shinobi ever. And i'm pretty sure that being seen as one of the strongest shinobi ever is probably better than any gift. And besides it's not like Hashirama controlled Madara himself while they fought, he had to fight Madara straight up. In Minato's case we know nothing of the Reaper Death Seal that he used, because the Kyuubi is still around, and apparently so is a part of him somehow. So i'm sure we will eventually find out exactly what happened in the battle between Minato and the Kyuubi. But untill then, all we know is that Hashirama and Madara were the only individuals who ever fought/conquered the Kyuubi.

Oathencrantz

May 13, 2009, 05:06 PM

jdw

May 13, 2009, 05:18 PM

One of the most talented ninja I would say is Neji, simply because he learned some of his clans most devastating techniques by himself. We should take into consideration that he didn't have access to the same resources as the main house members.

That is quite impressive. Hinata's dad was quite surprised with his development:
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/101/08/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/101/06/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/101/09/

That said, he needs a real level up. All that talent and no techniques to use :(

zerocooldx

May 13, 2009, 05:44 PM

Neji is more of a genius rather than someone who is talented. Because hes just good, or great, at Tai-Jutsu. While talented shinobi are far more versatile and can adapt to various different fighting styles, like Kakashi or Itachi and etc. But if we were talking about genius shinobi, then Neji would be at the top of my list, so i know where you are coming from. And yes Kishimoto needs to seriously lay off of developing the same five to six characters and include the others. <.<

segua

May 14, 2009, 12:53 AM

Kabuto is certainly a skilled ninja even Orochimaru praised Kabuto's skills. He sure has great medical ninjutsu that rivals Tsunade. I loved the part where Tsunade messed up his body's coordination but Kabuto soon re-learned how to use around 80% of his body. That is talent right there.

Honorable mention to Chiyo. She was an outstanding women. She is probably one of the best multi-tasking person I've seen so far. Taking on Sasori's 100 puppets is no small feat considering that Sasori took over a country with those puppents. Not only that, Chiyo was perhaps the only person shown thus far to bring back the dead. She even said she was able to or had the ability to even brink puppets like Sasori back to life.

Franckie

May 14, 2009, 06:37 PM

- Itachi: I mean, he's basically been described as the epitome of a genius so no rela need to add to that.

I'm not too sure on this. It is true that an Academy Instructor stated that Itachi was the greatest genius the Academy ever had, and that was before Itachi activated the Sharingan. DB also stated we only saw a "mere glimpse of his potential". So, where's those non-super Sharingan skills of his? I mean, during Sasuke vs Itachi, what we got was some shuriken tossing, a few fireballs, and evasion (that failed). I'm starting to think everyone around Itachi - including us, the readers - are victims of genjutsu tampering.

zerocooldx

May 14, 2009, 07:15 PM

I'm not too sure on this. It is true that an Academy Instructor stated that Itachi was the greatest genius the Academy ever had, and that was before Itachi activated the Sharingan. DB also stated we only saw a "mere glimpse of his potential". So, where's those non-super Sharingan skills of his? I mean, during Sasuke vs Itachi, what we got was some shuriken tossing, a few fireballs, and evasion (that failed). I'm starting to think everyone around Itachi - including us, the readers - are victims of genjutsu tampering.

Yeah, for the most part Itachi was a Sharingan Gen-Jutsu type of a Shinobi, but more specifically a Mangekyou Sharingan using/abusing "whore". But hey i don't see anything wrong with that, if it works then stick to it.

M3J

May 14, 2009, 07:15 PM

zerocooldx

May 14, 2009, 07:19 PM

We've seen him fight seriously only once, and we've seen him fight around two to three times total. One serious fight isn't enough to judge. Sharingan seems to help him accomplish his tasks easier, taking out Kakashi, tiring Sasuke, getting Narutuo/Deidara in genjutsu for insta-win...

I don't think we have seen Itachi fight seriously, but even if we had it would have mainly been Mangekyou Sharingan usage. But again this topic is not about power or being very good at a certain aspect of fighting, its more about that overall body of work of a Shinobi.

M3J

May 14, 2009, 09:32 PM

zerocooldx

May 14, 2009, 10:22 PM

Okay, serious enough, then. But he is one of the most talented, he was even ANBU captain around the age of 12, BEFORE he got his Mangekyou, I should assume. He became known as one of the greatest genius at a young age, unlocked Sharingan at young age, graduated from the academy at young age, etc. It's unfair to say Mangekyou helps him out when it wasn't so before he executed Uchiha. He probably uses Mangekyou to get the job done quicker or because it's very reliable.
Has any ninja ever transferred a part of their power to another? Was sick and nearly blind and still able to compete on nearly equal level with another genius Sharingan user? Even Madara didn't dare break his deal with Itachi, and he attacked Konoha/Shodaime, even Kakashi was taken out fairly quickly, though it is due to Mangekyou, but Itachi did have an upper hand.

I agree that Itachi was the greatest genius in the entire series, but from what we have seen for the most part its just been various Gen-Jutus, Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu, and Susanoo. And from a talent stand point i really can't say Itachi posessed all these other various jutsu because we haven't seen many of them. We saw one or two fire style jutsu, and i think we saw one or two water style jutsu but thats all. He had great accomplishment, but once again Itachi was more of a genius (meaning he excelled in a certain area) rather than being a Kakashi, Jiraiya, Orochimaru, Sasori or even Kakuzu. Whom all could fight on almost any battle field and fight using almost any stype of combat, and possessed a variety of jutsu styles as well.

Madara is not in his "original" body, meaning he does not have his Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan, and he may be suffering from side effects of being in a different body ah la Orochimaru. We also don't know what Harishama did to Madara, but we do know that he beat him and everyone thought Madara was dead, so the damage that Madara took must have been massive. So to just jump to the conclusion that Madara is very weak may be somewhat premature. Now granted while Itachi was dying he still somehow managed to keep not just Madara, but all of Akatsuki away from Konoha. So we have to give Itachi a lot of credit as well, but on the power transfer thing Chiyo gave up her life to save Gaara, so that was a pretty powerfull jutsu. But it really is a shame that we never got to see Itachi fight a serious battle.

M3J

May 14, 2009, 10:47 PM

Itachi hated fighting though, so he could have been trying to end the fights really quickly. Not sure if he opted to make it as painless as possible though, and he wouldn't look like the type to be hit by Naruto's Rasengan so easily in Rescue Gaara arc. There could have been a reason why Itachi mainly abused his Mangekyou and genjutsu since just genjutsu doesn't make one as respected as Itachi.
Oh? I thought he was, and that his Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan needed to be "recharged", so to speak. Was it stated that they saw his body though? For all we know, his body could have disappeared somehow and thus assumed to be dead.
That was a jutsu Chiyo did, I don't think Itachi used it as a jutsu. I could be wrong though. And she exchanged her life, not powers. :s

Delbi

May 14, 2009, 11:17 PM

I don't think we have seen Itachi fight seriously, but even if we had it would have mainly been Mangekyou Sharingan usage. But again this topic is not about power or being very good at a certain aspect of fighting, its more about that overall body of work of a Shinobi.

Powerwise, Itachi would seem to be the best, especially if he never unleashed his full potential.

The most talented shinobi however, is without a doubt Kakashi. The guy mastered, and make no mistake about it, mastered a bloodline that wasn't his own. He created the ever so powerful Chidori, and has demonstrated amazing skill in every ninja art. He is the epitome of what a ninja should be, and if he dies, damn Kishi.

zerocooldx

May 15, 2009, 12:20 PM

Powerwise, Itachi would seem to be the best, especially if he never unleashed his full potential.

The most talented shinobi however, is without a doubt Kakashi. The guy mastered, and make no mistake about it, mastered a bloodline that wasn't his own. He created the ever so powerful Chidori, and has demonstrated amazing skill in every ninja art. He is the epitome of what a ninja should be, and if he dies, damn Kishi.

True, but i really want to know what Kakashi's Mangekyou Sharingan power was called. Technically it is suppose to be Amaterasu, but i think he could only "warp" things. Kind of like what Sasuke did to save Karin from his own Amaterasu flames. So it could be that Kakashi just managed to master that one power before he died. But ya Kakashi was definately a freak with everythng he managed to do.

jdw

May 15, 2009, 12:33 PM

True, but i really want to know what Kakashi's Mangekyou Sharingan power was called. Technically it is suppose to be Amaterasu, but i think he could only "warp" things. Kind of like what Sasuke did to save Karin from his own Amaterasu flames. So it could be that Kakashi just managed to master that one power before he died. But ya Kakashi was definately a freak with everythng he managed to do.

His power is called Kamui.

zerocooldx

May 15, 2009, 01:16 PM

His power is called Kamui.

Yeah i've heard of the Gods/Creators Authority power, but what i meant by the other post was that i don't remember seeing Kakashi himself call it that. Unless the translations were off again like with Madara's Mizukage thing. <.< And i don't like looking through the Data Books, it just takes away from the Manga experience, well for me anyways. To me thats the biggest draw back of Naruto, too many things aren't clarely defined in the Manga when its released, so Kishi goes back and edits/adds things.

jdw

May 15, 2009, 01:32 PM

Yeah i've heard of the Gods/Creators Authority power, but what i meant by the other post was that i don't remember seeing Kakashi himself call it that. Unless the translations were off again like with Madara's Mizukage thing. <.< And i don't like looking through the Data Books, it just takes away from the Manga experience, well for me anyways. To me thats the biggest draw back of Naruto, too many things aren't clarely defined in the Manga when its released, so Kishi goes back and edits/adds things.

Well, I could see how it could interfere with enjoyment of the manga in some respects but the names of jutsus probably not so much, especially once you have seen it used anyway. Due to current events, Kakashi may not ever get a chance to say the word "kamui" while using it within the panels of the manga.

Raizen

May 21, 2009, 05:10 PM

Hashirama had to fight the Kyuubi while it was under Madara's control. And he beat both of them, didn't kill them but he won. And i'm pretty sure Madara had to have some type of a conflict with the Kyuubi. I highly doubt that he just walked up to the Kyuubi and bam! he had control over it. Also Hashirama and Minato both fought the Kyuubi, Hashirama won against it while Minato sealed half of it away. Hashirama had a gift, just like Minato posessed the Flying Thinder God jutsu, which apparently made him into the strongest shinobi ever. And i'm pretty sure that being seen as one of the strongest shinobi ever is probably better than any gift. And besides it's not like Hashirama controlled Madara himself while they fought, he had to fight Madara straight up. In Minato's case we know nothing of the Reaper Death Seal that he used, because the Kyuubi is still around, and apparently so is a part of him somehow. So i'm sure we will eventually find out exactly what happened in the battle between Minato and the Kyuubi. But untill then, all we know is that Hashirama and Madara were the only individuals who ever fought/conquered the Kyuubi.
Dude ur logic is really bad
1- Minato sealed only half of it b.c he wanted to give the otehr half to his son to use, not b/c he couldn't seal it
2- How is having hiraishin the same as having a KG?? minato created hiraishin while Mokuton and sahringan is in ur blood
3-Yes, teh 1st fought madara and the 9-tails, but he also had bijuu under his control. Minato also fought against both of tehm
4- The sharingan is stated to be able to tame teh 9-tails like a pet. So yeah it takes no effort at all.

zerocooldx

May 22, 2009, 12:49 AM

Dude ur logic is really bad
1- Minato sealed only half of it b.c he wanted to give the otehr half to his son to use, not b/c he couldn't seal it
2- How is having hiraishin the same as having a KG?? minato created hiraishin while Mokuton and sahringan is in ur blood
3-Yes, teh 1st fought madara and the 9-tails, but he also had bijuu under his control. Minato also fought against both of tehm
4- The sharingan is stated to be able to tame teh 9-tails like a pet. So yeah it takes no effort at all.

Ok lets see...

A jutsu is a jutsu no matter where it comes from, it's all about the training behind it. If the Sharingan can tame the Bijuu w/o any effort then i'm pretty sure the Uchihas could have ruled the entire Shinobi World. I mean according to what your saying any Uchiha can controll any Bijuu "just like that". Each jutsu requires training and mastery over it, regardless if you create it, learn it, or have it passed down through blood line. It's all about the training thats put into it, what good is a power if you don't know how to use it? Or if you can't use it at a high level? If training and hard work didn't matter then Konoha would be using Yamato to capture and tame all of the Bijuu, and he would be the strongest Konoha Shinobi right? I mean i'm just going off of your logic so based off of that Shinobi just need blood line powers and "bam!" they posess insane power w/o any effort. And also uumm Minato never fought against Madara or Harishama, he just fought against the Kyuubi.

jdw

May 22, 2009, 12:55 AM

Minato never fought against Madara or Harishama, he just fought against the Kyuubi.

You may be right, but when Minato recounted the events of that time, he said that Madara saw through everything he did. That suggests some type of interaction. I can't say it was a fight, but I doubt he was talking about minor things. Also, saying it would take a special power to beat madara suggests he experienced Madara's power to some extent to know what it would take to beat him. If they had no interaction with respect to his power, how could he come to the conclusion? He could have been guessing but that seems less likely. That's my opinion anyway.

zerocooldx

May 22, 2009, 01:05 AM

You may be right, but when Minato recounted the events of that time, he said that Madara saw through everything he did. That suggests some type of interaction. I can't say it was a fight, but I doubt he was talking about minor things. Also, saying it would take a special power to beat madara suggests he experienced Madara's power to some extent to know what it would take to beat him. If they had no interaction with respect to his power, how could he come to the conclusion? He could have been guessing but that seems less likely. That's my opinion anyway.

True, but Jiraiya also suspected that Madara was behind the attack on Konoha. As far as we know Minato did not directly fight against Madara but i'm sure down the line we will learn more details of their battle. Also Hidan was a pretty interesting shinobi, not really talented but very unique. He really was an immortal which makes me think as to why Orochimaru didn't go for him? Or better yet why not Kakuzu, Kakuzu was a pretty talented shinobi, even though he stole hearts and powers, he was very strong. So if Orochimaru was really looking for immortality or longevity Hidan and Kakuzu would have been perfect for him.

Raizen

May 26, 2009, 07:22 PM

Ok lets see...
A jutsu is a jutsu no matter where it comes from, it's all about the training behind it. If the Sharingan can tame the Bijuu w/o any effort then i'm pretty sure the Uchihas could have ruled the entire Shinobi World. I mean according to what your saying any Uchiha can controll any Bijuu "just like that". Each jutsu requires training and mastery over it, regardless if you create it, learn it, or have it passed down through blood line. It's all about the training thats put into it, what good is a power if you don't know how to use it? Or if you can't use it at a high level? If training and hard work didn't matter then Konoha would be using Yamato to capture and tame all of the Bijuu, and he would be the strongest Konoha Shinobi right? I mean i'm just going off of your logic so based off of that Shinobi just need blood line powers and "bam!" they posess insane power w/o any effort. And also uumm Minato never fought against Madara or Harishama, he just fought against the Kyuubi.
1- I never said all sharingan can tame the 9-tails, only the MS can and we all know the MS is extremely rare. Read my post
2- Of course u have to learn how to use ur powers. Why is that even up for discussion?? That is pretty blatant
3- Yamato's bijuu supressing powers aren't even close to the 1st so no he can't go around just rounding them up. I know u were being sarcastic, or at least I hope u were, b.c that was really bad logic
4- I didn't say minato fought against the 1st, when I said both I meant Madara and teh 9-tails. From Minato's statement, it is clear he encountered madara and I doubt madara would let Minato seal his pet so easily.
5- Furthermore, u are straying away from what I was countering. U said Madara and the 1st MUST be stronger than Minato b.c they can tame the 9-tails while Minato had to fight him which is illogical and untrue

zerocooldx

May 27, 2009, 01:44 AM

1- I never said all sharingan can tame the 9-tails, only the MS can and we all know the MS is extremely rare. Read my post
2- Of course u have to learn how to use ur powers. Why is that even up for discussion?? That is pretty blatant
3- Yamato's bijuu supressing powers aren't even close to the 1st so no he can't go around just rounding them up. I know u were being sarcastic, or at least I hope u were, b.c that was really bad logic
4- I didn't say minato fought against the 1st, when I said both I meant Madara and teh 9-tails. From Minato's statement, it is clear he encountered madara and I doubt madara would let Minato seal his pet so easily.
5- Furthermore, u are straying away from what I was countering. U said Madara and the 1st MUST be stronger than Minato b.c they can tame the 9-tails while Minato had to fight him which is illogical and untrue

1. The MS as we have seen, can be obtained my almost any Uchiha, at least anyone who really wants that power. All you need to do is kill the closest person to you or your best friend.

2. Contradicting yourself somewhat there, or at least to that point of what was implied in your previous posts.

3. Well once again some contradiction going on here as well, for the most part you really seemed to be jumping on the "Gifts are everything" bandwagon. At least in your prior posts.

4. We don't know that Minato directly fought Madara, he never said anything that resembled batteling Madara himself, so we can just speculate on that.

Well if point number 5 is the underlying theme of this discussion then maybe you should go back and read my post. Because i pretty clearly said that In my opinion Shodaime and Madara were stronger than Minato. I even said that Minato was apparently seen as the strongest Shinobi in Konoha's history. It was just my opinion, so it really should not be taken as seriously as it has been, especially since i said it was just my own opinion.

Forever_Melody

May 27, 2009, 09:51 AM

Well for the record, Minato's "best shinobi ever produced by Konoha" does not include Madara, Hashirama or Tobirama as they were not produced by Konoha, but were already accomplished shinobi when they founded it. SO if we're using him as a comparison basis, we can use that title on a basis of other shinobis trained in Konoha.

Other than that though, it's hard t say. Talent & "genius" in Naruto is based off early development. Past a certain age, genius is more or less a free ballgame as to how strong you become. For example take Minato, Kakashi, Orochimaru, Itachi etc. These people were all called "genius" at a young age, but really the manga emphasizes their prodigal early development when talking of their genius. Example: Itachi's genius is often associated with his early age feats as ANBU(same with Kakashi).

Sachsenhesse

May 30, 2009, 09:51 AM

zerocooldx

May 30, 2009, 10:38 AM

haha wtf...

sasuke as the most talented? that brat had only luck, same goes for kakashi or do you really think without the sharingan he would be so strong? he got some talent, but not the biggest, the same with itachi just imagine itachi without his sharingan and he is an ordinary foddernin

the most talented ist without a doubt hiruzen sarutobi, he mastered the way of the shinobi flawless and that without anything other then his intellect and talent

for example, imagine that he would become a sharingan, he would be the overmonster in the entire narutoverse

Well the funny thing is that anyone can be "great" or "talented" when you add the oh so famous "what if". But the reality is that Sasuke, Itachi and Kakashi do posess the Sharingan and Hiruzen does not, end of story. Also we never really got to learn a whole lot about Hiruzen before he died. We saw him fight once, but you are more then welcome to bring forth some much more detailed information to support your claim.

The_Drunk

May 30, 2009, 11:19 AM

The more I think about this thread the more I debate internally with myself. The question posed is Who is the Most Talented Shinobi? I've read through most of the comments regarding this subject and the more I read through them the more I realize that everyone has there own special talents, but the one that people shy away from is Naruto.

Naruto: We all know Naruto was created by Kishi as the slacker who has the potential to defeat anyone but is dumber than a pile of bricks. (IN OTHER WORDS NO TALENT JUST POTENTIAL) Arguments can be made that if people surrounding him had not coached him... He WOULD BE DEAD!!! Everything he's learned is because people around him have helped him develop new jutsu's which can be seen in the eyes of many as UNTALENTED. I had to see the Naruto world from an outside crystal ball and view it as an overall accomplishments just because everyone has different times of reaching their peak. Some shinobi's show their talents at different times or have help from others to reach there peak. For example... Itachi had the help of Madara to help him reach his full potential at a young age. Kakashi could have never became the copy ninja without the help of the sharingan that was given to him from Obito. Minato had J-man to coach him at a young age and we all know that everyone that J-man has trained has become some of the most powerful shinobi in Naruto (Minato, Pain, and Naruto) J-man was trained by the 3 hokage.... Sasuke had Oro to help him develop... because Sasuke had talent, but just like Naruto he needed someone to help him train and develop his talents. So if you look at the overall picture.. everyone was coached by someone and everyone one of these shinobi's had someone to help them on the way. It's hard to point at one individual shinobi as the most talented because everyone has there own talents. Shikamaru is the smartest we've seen.. so his talent outshines everyone else in the category of brains. Tsunade talent is medical and she outshines everyone else in the category of medical ninjitsu. Kakashi's talent is the ability to copy jutsu's and he is the most talented in that ability. It is only when you put talent against talent that you can truly see who's talents are better. When you see it like that..... then Naruto should be at the top of everyone's list, not just because it's his show, but because his talents are far greater than than any other shinobi. His talents include:::: The largest amounts of chakra. The most unpredictable. The most adaptable. The most powerful arsenal of jutsus ( Yes I said it he has Rasengan, Super Rasengan, Wind Rasengan, Sage, 9 tails, summons). The talent that people don't take into consideration is his talent to have people believe in him and become his friend. (Kabuto, Pain, ect....). When you take all of this into consideration then you realize that when you put Naruto's talents all together and you put them up against any shinobi then you realize that he has the ability to defeat any shinobi in the manga because he is so talented. It is Naruto's talents that make him the strongest shinobi in the manga.

Sachsenhesse

May 30, 2009, 11:20 AM

No problem. ;)

Lets take on Kakashi first... he developed Chidori right? (which someone here stated as a point) So... he developed it without the sharingan and chidori without is sharingan is what? A crap. He would have died without Minato back him up, because of this jutsu. Then what we know, whats are his jutsus only by pure talent (sharingan is not really his talent)... suiton, raiton, doton and dogkuchiyose, average taijutsu. Nothing special to be truth, three elements are his best point.

Sasuke. His talent is the Sharingan and yet it was more then once stated he was more talented then itachi. so lets see what did he aquired by himself only using his talent... really good use of his bloodline, various jutsus based on chidori, really good taijutsu, ninjutsu and genjutsu.

But this has Sarutobi too. :) Remind, we only seen him in a weakened state. His Taijutsu was more then average, even with a bo he was really dangerous in close combat. Then it was said he knows all the jutsus in konoha, we dont know how many he could use of them, but the fact that he once saw minatos technique with the demon god and then copied it without having the sharingan, is something which is truly great. Also that the two former Hokages had trust him as he were a kid shows his talent.

He fought two hokages and orochimaru, an kagelevel shinobi in an weakened state and rescued so the entire village of konoha. Without any presents from others, he did all achieve by himself. That is talent on its greatest!

poobert

May 30, 2009, 11:48 AM

Sachsenhesse

May 30, 2009, 12:01 PM

The fourth was talented in everything. He is like the third, Kakashi and Itachi only better. He can do every type of jutsu and is a well rounded Shinobi.

And how proof you that minato was able to do every type of jutsu and was a well rounded shinobi? ^^

poobert

May 30, 2009, 12:06 PM

And how proof you that minato was able to do every type of jutsu and was a well rounded shinobi? ^^

If this is sarcasm know it doesn't come out well in forums.

He made the rasengan. He had the ultimate ability in chakra manipulation. He had the best space time jutsu, his taijutsu was seen in the kakashi gaiden to be awesome. His sealing jutsu was second to none. He created the death god jutsu, he could actually face the 9 tails.

Granted we have not seen his genjutsu, but from the ultimate hype he has, it is doubtful that he was not ace in that too.

*edit* btw I am not talking about being able to use every elemental jutsu. Only nagato can do that.

roma

May 30, 2009, 01:00 PM

This way we can get rid of no talent (naruto) and partial talent (shikamaru) to look at the best shinobi.

Ouch! really... how can you call naruto a "no talent"? :blink granted most here agree that naruto isn't the most talented but to say he's a "no talent" seems just too... degrading (can't think of a better term at the moment).

The_Drunk

June 02, 2009, 10:17 AM

The Sharingan is just a tool. Kakashi is supremely talented in being able to use the sharingan in the way he does. Even Itachi commented on this fact. Heck he even managed an MS figuring out the requirements without being told. He was a jounin before he even got the sharingan.

The third was talented, but he also had a lot of time to work up his power. The Sanin are the same. Itachi had all of 20 odd years becoming an anbu captain and completely trumping Oro.

The fourth was talented in everything. He is like the third, Kakashi and Itachi only better. He can do every type of jutsu and is a well rounded Shinobi.

The most talented shinobi are the ones that can do all shinobi arts with ease. Sasuke is pretty talented in this regards too, but Naruto is not. (despite naruto being way better than Sasuke, he is not as talented). Neji has talent, but only in one aspect of his power. Jiraya had no talent in genjutsu but Oro had talent in all of it so Oro>Jiraya (despite Jiraya being better imo).

This way we can get rid of no talent (naruto) and partial talent (shikamaru) to look at the best shinobi.

4th, Itachi, 3rd, Sasuke, Kakashi, probably the 1st and 2nd hokages too, Oro, madara. They are all talented in ninjutsu, taijutsu, genjutsu, space time jutsu and not just one or a few of them but all of them (dunno about the 2nd).

My conclusion is that the 4th had the most all round talent.

So basically what your saying is who knows the most Jutsu's. That's how you justifying the most talented. I don't agree with it, but lets take you pick the 4th Hokage. From what I understand we know very little about the 4th Hokage only that he knew some powerful jutsu's. We've only seen only what 4 or 5 of his jutsu's. Oro has shown us the most jutsu's out of all the shinobi's in the Naruto series so that should have been your pick.
[hr]

Ouch! really... how can you call naruto a "no talent"? :blink granted most here agree that naruto isn't the most talented but to say he's a "no talent" seems just too... degrading (can't think of a better term at the moment).
I know what you mean.... Naruto even created a jutsu that Minato could not even create. If that's not talent then I don't know what talent is. Your comparing a 30ish years of learning jutsu's to 15 years of learning jutsu's. In half the time he's already surpassed Minato. Wow. Naruto is so underrated it's not even funny.
[hr]

If this is sarcasm know it doesn't come out well in forums.

He made the rasengan. He had the ultimate ability in chakra manipulation. He had the best space time jutsu, his taijutsu was seen in the kakashi gaiden to be awesome. His sealing jutsu was second to none. He created the death god jutsu, he could actually face the 9 tails.

Granted we have not seen his genjutsu, but from the ultimate hype he has, it is doubtful that he was not ace in that too.

*edit* btw I am not talking about being able to use every elemental jutsu. Only nagato can do that.

Correction he doesn't know Space time jutsu.. that's Madara.

Starzen

June 02, 2009, 11:23 AM

summoning is space time jutsu.

zerocooldx

June 02, 2009, 11:33 AM

Well i think it's pretty clear that Minato had two different "speed" type jutsu. One being his insanely fast Shunshin jutsu, which he used to save Kakashi with and then kill the single Iwagakure Shinobi. And the other jutsu of course was Minato's Hiraishin, which was a space/time jutsu he used with his special kunai. Which he used to kill all of those other Iwagakure Shinobi, as well as when he saved Kakashi and Rin.

Raizen

June 02, 2009, 05:07 PM

1. The MS as we have seen, can be obtained my almost any Uchiha, at least anyone who really wants that power. All you need to do is kill the closest person to you or your best friend.

2. Contradicting yourself somewhat there, or at least to that point of what was implied in your previous posts.

3. Well once again some contradiction going on here as well, for the most part you really seemed to be jumping on the "Gifts are everything" bandwagon. At least in your prior posts.

4. We don't know that Minato directly fought Madara, he never said anything that resembled batteling Madara himself, so we can just speculate on that.

Well if point number 5 is the underlying theme of this discussion then maybe you should go back and read my post. Because i pretty clearly said that In my opinion Shodaime and Madara were stronger than Minato. I even said that Minato was apparently seen as the strongest Shinobi in Konoha's history. It was just my opinion, so it really should not be taken as seriously as it has been, especially since i said it was just my own opinion.
1. As we have seen the sharingan only appears in a few individual. Only the strongest has a chance to attain that power.
2. I don't know what to say about the other posts b/c it doesn't make any sense. how did i contradict myself?? u compared minato's hiraishin to a KG which is completely preposterous. Minato created that technique out of hard skills, KG are techniques passed through blood, there is no need for creation or thinking.
3- As for who is the strongest in all of konoha's history, that would be the 3rd hokage. He is considered the strongest hokage. How much stronger i she to the 1st or the 4th, not much IMO. I think all are extremely strong, perhaps the strogest in teh whole manga

zerocooldx

June 03, 2009, 03:52 AM

1. As we have seen the sharingan only appears in a few individual. Only the strongest has a chance to attain that power.
2. I don't know what to say about the other posts b/c it doesn't make any sense. how did i contradict myself?? u compared minato's hiraishin to a KG which is completely preposterous. Minato created that technique out of hard skills, KG are techniques passed through blood, there is no need for creation or thinking.
3- As for who is the strongest in all of konoha's history, that would be the 3rd hokage. He is considered the strongest hokage. How much stronger i she to the 1st or the 4th, not much IMO. I think all are extremely strong, perhaps the strogest in teh whole manga

No, it was either said or implied that Minato was Konoha's strongest Shinobi. While Hiruzen was just know as the professor because of his vast knowledge. But both of them were products of Konoha, as opposed to Harishama and Madara who created Konoha. So there is a big difference there.

Forever_Melody

June 03, 2009, 10:54 AM

There are statements by various characters alluding to various things. At the end of the day it depends on personal interpretation.

Sandaime was called the strongest Hokage by the manga(link (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/94/13/)) and the databook refers to him as "history's strongest Hokage". Also, Orochimaru says that he was once "the God of shinobi"(link (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/121/03/)).

Minato is commented on being "the best shinobi Konoha ever produced" and Jiraiya also comments that his talent is only seen once every decade(link (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/367/11/)). There are other allusions to Minato being great as well that I can't recall right now such as the "flee on sight" thingy during Kakashi Gaiden.

zerocooldx

June 03, 2009, 11:32 AM

Minto was pretty much feared (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/240/11/) throughout the shinobi world. And at certain times characters, i think even Hiruzen said said it, "If only the fourth were still alive..." or something along those lines. Which obviously just goes to show how strong he really was. But we obviously never saw Hiruzen in his prime, and when Mianto died he was indeed in his prime. So its tough to compare the two of them, but i don't know if both of them were produced by Konoha.

We saw that Nidaime and Shodaime were Hiruzen's teachers so, maybe Hiruzen began his training before Konoha was created. Harishama and/or Madara died like what 80-90 years ago. And Hiruzen was what somewhere between 60-70 yeard old when he died. And from the looks of it Harishama was at least is his 20's when he, along with Madara who looked to be younger, founed Konoha. My math isen't all that great but maybe Hiruzen was around 10-15 years old when Konoha was founded.

Forever_Melody

June 03, 2009, 12:19 PM

zerocooldx

June 03, 2009, 01:41 PM

One thing I notice is that Minato is more praised for his genius/talent than his strength sometimes. I mean, don't get me wrong, he's mad strong as implied by that link you gave zero, but Jiraiya underlines his talent as something rare, not just his strength. Also note Kakashi compares Naruto to Minato's achievements(which are directly a result of his talent) when speaking of "surpassing the 4th". Also "greatest shinobi" doesn't equal "strongest shinobi". Minato could've been great in more ways than strength: his dedication, his talent, his abilities as a leader etc.

Oh and random comment, Hashirama and Tobirama(idk why people always call him Nidaime but they switched Shodaime to Hashirama lol :p) were commented on having died young.

Which is another thing that really irritates me, that of course being Harishama's and Tobirama's deaths. We know nothing of them, except that they indeed did die at a rather young age. Which in itself brings up a ton of questions about their lives. I really hope that someone will end up re-telling Konoha's history in greater detail. And the only person that can accurately do that is probably one of Konoha's elders or Madara himself.

Raizen

June 03, 2009, 07:12 PM

No, it was either said or implied that Minato was Konoha's strongest Shinobi. While Hiruzen was just know as the professor because of his vast knowledge. But both of them were products of Konoha, as opposed to Harishama and Madara who created Konoha. So there is a big difference there.
The Databook and the manga stated the 3rd was the strongst hokage.
But then again kakashi stated that the 4th is unsurpassed lol

IMO Minato is not far behind the 3rd at all. He is considered the greatest by many. If he didn't die I am sure he would have been the strongest
[hr]

Which is another thing that really irritates me, that of course being Harishama's and Tobirama's deaths. We know nothing of them, except that they indeed did die at a rather young age. Which in itself brings up a ton of questions about their lives. I really hope that someone will end up re-telling Konoha's history in greater detail. And the only person that can accurately do that is probably one of Konoha's elders or Madara himself.
I thought I read somewhere that they died fighting in wars and such. As strong as they are, if u go up against countless enemies, pretty soon ur going to become tired. So they died protecting their village

segua

June 04, 2009, 05:03 PM

The reason why Yondaime could of been consider great might've been tied to the fact that it was Yondaime that sealed up the Kyuubi. Due to the fact that the Kyuubi is renown as the bijuu which has the most chakra, Minato defeating Kyuubi is a testament to Minato's prowess as a ninja.

Now personally, I think the only ninja that has more talent than Minato was his wife Kushina.

Now if Yondaime's sealing of the Kyuubi is a testament of Minato's greatness, I would have to say that Madara is much more talented than Yondaime. And above Madara, I would have to say that Hashirama was much more talented than Madara. Whereas Madara was able to summon and control the Kyuubi, Hashirama was able to control a handful of bijuus under his powers.

Even in a time of warring states, Hashirama was at the pinnacle of the ninja world. Even Madara acknowledged this fact. Even to this day, Madara still acknowledges Hashirama's strength and that of the Senju clan.

Even to this day, Hashirama's skill set is very unique that its' second to none.

zerocooldx

June 05, 2009, 03:18 AM

Raizen

June 05, 2009, 07:38 PM

I want to know why Hiruzen didn't use the Reaper Death Seal on the Kyuubi and let Minato live and protect Konoha?
Maybe he was not strong enough. or it could also be the fact that he only knows the beginner's version of it.
When the 3rd used it on oro, he gave up his soul and he trapped all souls caught within the shinigami. Minato on the other not only split the 9-tails with the technique, he sealed the captured soul in his son instead of in the shinigami. Moreover, he also somehow escaped the requirement of fully sealing himself in the shinigami b/c he was able to appear within naruto

M3J

June 05, 2009, 07:59 PM

I want to know why Hiruzen didn't use the Reaper Death Seal on the Kyuubi and let Minato live and protect Konoha?

Minato does have a choice in this, he probably had a plan, and it could be possible Hiruzen wasn't exactly sure what. And would Minato really let someone else die when he could be just as capable of stopping the Kyuubi?

zerocooldx

June 06, 2009, 03:52 AM

Minato does have a choice in this, he probably had a plan, and it could be possible Hiruzen wasn't exactly sure what. And would Minato really let someone else die when he could be just as capable of stopping the Kyuubi?

Well if he sealed the Kyuubi to protect Konoha, then i'm pretty sure Minato staying alive would have eliminated any threat to Konoha. As opposed to Hiruzen, who already stepped down as Hokage prior to Minato's death. And i think we still have to find out if the Bijuu can be killed in their release forms. And maybe the Reaper Deal Seal does have different abilities, but Hiruzen didn't really alude to his Reaper Death Seal (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/122/13/) being different than Minato's. This is similar to Nagato not saving Yahiko when he died, so i guess its up to Kishimoto to clear things up.

Franckie

June 06, 2009, 12:16 PM

I want to know why Hiruzen didn't use the Reaper Death Seal on the Kyuubi and let Minato live and protect Konoha?
We don't even know if Sarutobi was in town at the time. When the Kyuubi attacked Konoha sixteen years ago, it was within a year after the conclusion of the Third Great Shinobi War. The 3 Sannin had also already left Konoha with no one knowing where they were at the time. Konoha was vulnerable, and sending the Kyuubi against the village would not only further weaken it, but ensure increased paranoia the higher-ups had against the Uchiha Clan.

zerocooldx

June 06, 2009, 12:39 PM

We don't even know if Sarutobi was in town at the time. When the Kyuubi attacked Konoha sixteen years ago, it was within a year after the conclusion of the Third Great Shinobi War. The 3 Sannin had also already left Konoha with no one knowing where they were at the time. Konoha was vulnerable, and sending the Kyuubi against the village would not only further weaken it, but ensure increased paranoia the higher-ups had against the Uchiha Clan.

Where would Hiruzen be? On vacation? Also i don't remember the Sannin being gone from Konoha at that time, because if that were the case then how did Jiraiya get Naruto's unsealing "key"? Maybe i'm wrong but i'll need someone to put the pieces of the puzzle together for me, if indeed all of that is true.

jdw

June 06, 2009, 12:48 PM

Where would Hiruzen be? On vacation? Also i don't remember the Sannin being gone from Konoha at that time, because if that were the case then how did Jiraiya get Naruto's unsealing "key"? Maybe i'm wrong but i'll need someone to put the pieces of the puzzle together for me, if indeed all of that is true.

The key could have been retrieved from the toads, considering the key is a toad, and Yondaime was riding on a toad when he encountered Kyuubi, thus he had a contract with the toads.

zerocooldx

June 06, 2009, 12:53 PM

The key could have been retrieved from the toads, considering the key is a toad, and Yondaime was riding on a toad when he encountered Kyuubi, thus he had a contract with the toads.

That could have happened, but can someone link me to something where it says the Sannin and Hiruzen where not around when the Kyuubi attacked?

M3J

June 06, 2009, 02:19 PM

Well if he sealed the Kyuubi to protect Konoha, then i'm pretty sure Minato staying alive would have eliminated any threat to Konoha. As opposed to Hiruzen, who already stepped down as Hokage prior to Minato's death. And i think we still have to find out if the Bijuu can be killed in their release forms. And maybe the Reaper Deal Seal does have different abilities, but Hiruzen didn't really alude to his Reaper Death Seal (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/122/13/) being different than Minato's. This is similar to Nagato not saving Yahiko when he died, so i guess its up to Kishimoto to clear things up.

It could be Minato had different plans and couldn't tell Hiruzen or Hiruzen didn't know wtf to do. Minato wouldn't have risked someone else's life, and he thought Konoha would be in good hands with Hiruzen or the next hokage.
Hiruzen didn't know or doesn't know how Minato's Reaper Death Seal looks like, he's going by with what Minato told him.

Raizen

June 10, 2009, 07:58 PM

That could have happened, but can someone link me to something where it says the Sannin and Hiruzen where not around when the Kyuubi attacked?
It is all speculations really.
oro left after not being chosen for hokage.
J-man left to explore teh world or chase after oro
Tsunade left b/c she was tired
As for the 3rd. i doubt he left the village

zerocooldx

June 11, 2009, 03:14 AM

It is all speculations really.
oro left after not being chosen for hokage.
J-man left to explore teh world or chase after oro
Tsunade left b/c she was tired
As for the 3rd. i doubt he left the village

But we don't exactly know when the Sannin left. Because when Jiraiya trained Nagato, Yahiko and Konan Tsunade and Orochimaru went back to Konoha. And Orochimaro left after Minato was chosen Hokage so i'm sure he left prior to the Kyuubi attack. But Minato was only Hokage for maybe a little over a year before he died. Also Jiraiya looked to have come back to Konoha while Kushina was pregnant with Naruto. Which again was only a few months prior to the Kyuubi attack. And we know for sure that Hiruzen was around Konoha that time. But when it comes to Tsunade we don't know when she left.

M3J

June 11, 2009, 09:54 AM

zerocooldx

June 11, 2009, 10:28 AM

According to Kakashi's flashback, she left around the time Naruto was born, soon before or after his birth. Kakashi looks young and pre-ANBU. He was around 15 when Naruto was born? And he became a jounin at twelve, sooo it could be between 12 to 15 (Kakashi's age when Tsunade left). Just a speculation though.

Well Kakashi is 29-30 years old right now, and Naruto is around 15-16 so Kakashi was 13-14 when he became a Jounin. But ya there is like no information about the Kyuubi attack except that Minato sealed it within Naruto.

zerocooldx

October 01, 2009, 06:35 PM

I'm still sticking to Kakashi. Even though a lot of new shinobi have been introduced with very unique abilities. But as always all opinions are welcome.

En Yang Ji

July 16, 2010, 01:28 AM

The sharingan allows the user to counter nin, tai and genjutsu. Sarutobi's prowess stems from his ability to counter all types of jutsu in Konoha. By mastering the sharingan Itachi could do something similar, he could counter nin, tai, and genjutsu. For this reason, just by activating a 3 tomoe sharingan, the user is able to reach another level of power. Just by having the sharingan Uchiha have a head start on their peers.

The sharingans ability to copy can increase growth even further. Things like body movements, and the mechanics of a jutsu, no matter what type of jutsu it is, can be copied and memorized by the user. This allowed Sasuke to use Lee’s taijutsu and gain a lot of speed really quickly. Since the sharingan allowed the Sasuke to become so skilled in taijutsu so quickly, he didn’t have to spend so much time training in that area. He had more time to train in other areas. IMO this is why Sasuke is so strong. Sasuke didn’t have to train that much to become skilled in taijutsu or genjutsu because of the sharingan and Sasuke was already very skilled in ninjutsu.

Sasuke was able to become a jack of all trades, highly skilled in all areas. Becoming as skilled as Sasuke is in taijutsu and genjutsu would normally take a lot of time. Another important point is most shinobi highly skilled in taijutsu and genjutsu specialize in one of those areas and likely spend most of their time training in their specialty. Sasuke’s talented, but he wouldn’t be able to reach the level he’s at, so quickly, without the sharingan.

Sarutobi implied Orochimaru has more talent than him (http://www.urakai.com/ndb3/052-053.png) and Orochimaru said that his own genius paled in comparision to Saske's ability when he was at that age. Sasuke said Oro was a genius to the norm, but he couldn’t even come close to surpassing the Uchiha. All of this implies (as far as growth rate is concerned): Sarutobi > Orochimaru > Sasuke. IMO Itachi’s talent is greater than or equal to Sasuke’s.

Itachi is the genius elite of the uchiha clan. If Sasuke was able to get to the level of the 5 kages at 15, than imagine what Itachi could do at 21. Considering what I wrote above, it would make sense if Itachi was a good deal stronger than what he has shown.

GyoMasta

July 16, 2010, 11:19 AM

For the most talented I would go for Itachi. This one is the embodiment of genius or prodigy. He's been considered and ackowledge as the most gifted and strongest of Uchiha (only Madara/Tobi competing for the strongest one though) even before the uchiha Massacre.

His rise in the ninja hierarchy is also quite impressive as he became genin at 7 (Kakashi at 5), chuunin at 10 (Kakashi at 6, I know) and just 6 months later entered the ANBU and became ANBU Captain at 13 (whilev Kakashi became Jounin at 12-13). Itachi's too immense talent and intelligence that gave him power beyond imagination for someone of his age (more than any recorded other said geniuses at his age of 10 to 13) was such that it clearly became a curse as we know the story. It is because of his dangerous talent, even by Uchiha's genius standards that something as nonesense-like as asking a child the wipe out the Uchiha Clan, the strongest clan, became something conceivable while it shouldn't be even dreamable (I'm not putting more sauce on the meat that there already is).

He clearly demonstrated an impressive level of skills in every shinobi area quite soon that was enough to even defeat Shunshin no Shisui and dominate the the Uchiha Clan in few hours. And notice how after defeating them there's not a single scratch on him: you need more than just possess the Sharinagn or MS do achieve such level so fast. And see how effortlessly he defeated Orochimaru, I doubt that there ever have been that much Kage-level 13-year-old shinobi in the Ninja World's history.

And Itachi's speed: at twelve was already such that not even Sharingan from the Keimu Butai could even manage to see him moving and ended on the floor before his taijutsu; he was that skilled and fast even when fight the whole Uchiha Clan (I know Tobi helped him, but still) he ended up with nothing near as a scratch; when he was 18 he was still moving so fast that not even Sharingan Kakashi could see his moves (even if Kakashi's Sharingan isn't as keen as an Uchiha's) but Kakashi's Sharingan could see a 5th-gate-opened Rock Lee move as fast as he was moving, clearly suggesting that Itachi was faster than Rock Lee's best speed at 12-13 year-old without using Chakra Gate Openings.

Itachi is all brute talent and brain. he even used a MS moves that even Tobi/Madara didn't know about: TenshaFuuin Amaterasu, which can alter a Sharingan that didn't already evolved to MS so that it can release Amaterasu the way it did. Obviously Itachi didn't learn that one from the secret tablet. And Tobi, who fought Yondaime, considered Itachi as threat for him and clearly they didn't fought (except maybe in training but that's not what I talking about) to the point of not touching Konoha for years because of Itachi (not saying Itachi was necessarily more powerful but talent/skilled enough).

The ease at which Itachi defeats or outsmart greatly skilled opponent even when he's just playing with them contributes to why I consider Itachi the most talented ninja. He doesn't need a doujutsu to be uber, as he's deadly skilled in all shinobi arts,but his profficiency with his eyes allowed him to be one of the rare MS Uchiha who were also using Susano'o and the only one so far who teached Tobi something about that doujutsu he masters so well.

For his faster-than-a-speeding-bullet progression in all ninja arts, hierarchy, power, superspeed and brain, and his victory over the strongest clan and Oro I choose Itachi as the most talent shinobi.
_________________________________

I'd also say Minato.
And Sasori, who defeated Sandaime kazekage, at, for what i observed, around 15 year-old, also is among the most talent, but let's focus on Itachi.

THM Nindo

July 16, 2010, 03:11 PM

Best round-up shinobi is Itachi...
He was good in everything :
- Taijutsu
- Ninjutsu
- Genjutsu
- Seal
- Stamina (before illness)
- Special technique (MS)

But, I'm still not sure he would be able to defeat someone like Minato...
Especially now that I've seen him in action...

I'll have to say it's a fight between Itachi and Minato...
(Of course, giving that Sasuke and Naruto will surpass them on day, it will be a fight between those two...)

DanielKnoT

July 16, 2010, 03:45 PM

The most talented should be Minato Namikaze...

Someone that just born with a Magical Dojutsu that give them Many powers-ups is not necessarily being talented.. For example Itachi, Sasuke, Nagato... What they did to get those powers?

Dont get me wrong, am not saying that this guys are not talented but if we take Minato, someone that is a Genius (Jiraiya said it), that created every jutsu that he owns and perfected others, for example the S/T Jutsus, extremly intelligent, and many others features that probably will be appearing later in the Manga..

hibar90

July 17, 2010, 02:56 AM

What is talent? As mentioned in OP, it's natural ability that you get from the day you are born. I would go further to add that it's the maximum potential of a character. It's a random pick in a deck of a card played by god. He'll give something extra while leaving somethings below average. Hey! That's why we are all unique no? This talent usually can be improved in real life. Some have it easier than others.

For example the likes of Sasuke, oro and Kakashi was given the gift of intelligence and natural instinct. They know many jutsu and when/where to use them fully. On the draw back like Kakashi he's chakra reserve was lower. And we know there are those with higher reserve than oro and sasuke.

Yes some are born into a clan with KG (a gift/talent). But they still produced losers like hinata and obito. It does not guarantee your success. Itachi was born with high instinct and other talent as well as being an uchiha. Yondaime became a legend just for being born like Ussain Bolt (speed is also talent/natural gift that you can hone).

We can compare it to real life example. In basketball IMHO the greatest gift/talent is your height. You can only try to get taller, but really it's a mystery how people would get taller than another. In narutoverse the greatest gift/talent IMHO is chakra reserve.

So the most talented shinobi is no doubt naruto. With those with huge reserve Yondaime speed(hiraishin) and Itachi all roundness can be obtained in time. And naruto in a week achieved something yondaime could not do. Naruto growth is limitless. If shodaime is alive along with kakashi/sandaime, Orochimaru and tobirama to personally train naruto, he can reach a wall that cannot be surpassed by any others. Even if Itachi/Minato/Sasuke was given the opportunity they can't top KB training. Things that should be achieved in 500 years can be done in 50 years.

demons_halo

July 17, 2010, 08:25 AM

hibar90

July 17, 2010, 09:13 AM

maybe minato had his own kekki genkai. how would you know?

Maybe because so far there is no evidence that he has? Lol

Anyway Minato is gifted in a different way than those born in elite clan. He's born with high reaction speed.

En Yang Ji

August 02, 2010, 03:22 PM

How powerful most of the really talented ninja become seems to be very dependant on their environment.

Minato learned summoning jutsu from Jiraiya and his powerful fuuinjutsu from Kuushina. The Flying Thunder God Jutsu seems to use fuuinjutsu to create the shiki rite.

Kakashi learned his mindset from Minato and Obito. Also the 1000 jutsu he obtained and MS came from the sharingan Obito gave him.

Kabuto was rescued and raised by the chief medic nin. Also he spent a lot of time with Orochimaru so they might explain his manipulation skills.

Sasuke's Chidori and Chidori variants came from Kakashi. His shuriken skills came copying his brothers training. Oro probably taught him his skills with the sword. Also he has his sharingan based skills.

Orochimaru probably decided to learn snake-related jutsu and finding the white snake. He decided to learn kinjutsu after his parents died.

It seems like a lot of how powerful they became was more because of their environment than their talent.

Roflkopt3r

August 09, 2010, 04:35 PM

Here come some theories:

Haku. Who knows what he might've been able to become. How old was he when he died? 12 at the most. Yet the famous Zabuza said that Haku was stronger than himself already. Also he has incredible precision and speed.
Kakashi's comment on his first appearance was "There are ninjas younger than you and yet stronger than me in this world." Ok, he didn't have true evidence to evaluate Haku's power, but that's a remarkable thing to say.
Also he was able to use his Kekke Genkai to create his very own skills at this young age. That's remarkable.

Namikaze Minato. He perfected space-time-jutsu and might've been the first one for this. He invented Rasengan (The creation of such a thing should be way more difficult than learning and using it!)

Uzumaki Kushina. Ok, we don't have much information about her, but Naruto sets his goals to be "a greater badass than his father and a stronger ninja than his mother." To explicity notice her as an idol of ninja strength, maybe even above his father, her incredible fuin jutsu... she might've been incredible.

Hatake Sakumo. All we know that he must've been incredible and is said to have been far above the Sannin. Yet it seems he had no Kekke Genkai. That's quite rare in these upper leagues of ninjas in my opinion.

Hatake Kakashi. Dunno how old he was in Kakashi's Gaiden, but he was young, a jounin and just invented an incredible technique on his own. Ok, he had his flaws and had to be rescued by Minato against a quite ordinary ninja. Might be the least brillant guy in here, but he still has his achievements which call him a genius. Such as unlocking a form of Mangekyou Sharingan with a jutsu not even Sasuke or Itachi had, without beeing an Uchiha.

Uchiha Itachi. ANBU squad leader at the age of 13... Whatthehell?
Also, he seemed to have been way stronger than Sasuke until now...
http://manga.naruto-tv.com/naruto/488/17
"It's perfect... I can feel Itachi's power. I can feel myself getting stronger!"
That's nothing Sasuke would say if there wasn't a noticable difference between Itachi and Sasuke!

I'ld rank their talents in approximately this order:
Haku & Itachi > Sakumo > Minato > Kushina > Kakashi.

Oathencrantz

August 09, 2010, 05:13 PM

stephen80

August 10, 2010, 03:06 PM

Itachi, cuz is at least as talented as minato + he got the sharingan

Vespir

August 14, 2010, 06:20 PM

definitely sasuke and kakashi. sasuke's mastered his sharingan i believe and kakashi, even without being an uchiha blood, he achieved mangekyou.

Silvers Rayleigh

August 14, 2010, 06:27 PM

i will go with naruto and sasuke, they are only 16 and can solo
99% of the ninja we have seeing thus far.

elitefox

August 16, 2010, 04:35 AM

i will go with naruto and sasuke, they are only 16 and can solo
99% of the ninja we have seeing thus far.

Lol I thought I will be the only one who believes that Naruto is very talented. :darn

Well, first Kakashi didn't pay much attention to Naruto. second, Naruto has no training ground unlike sasuke at the beginning... Look at him, he is a street child and no future at all if not being taken into school. He didn't have anything at all. and then comes the scroll which a 7 year old kid understands wtf? and mastered it in 7 days or less to actually use it in battle. I think he is almost no read no write to ninjas but what happens when someone help him grow, he grows. It is just like that no one believe him except for the few... well I guess no one wants to teach a stree brat.

Everyone was ahead of Naruto and now he is few or more levels than any other ninja just because someone taught, train, advise and believe him. If that happened on the start of the manga, he might be a god of the world now.

I place Naruto on top as well as Itachi, Pain and Minato.

Why Pain, all jutsus are yours, what would you choose? he chose the 6 pains very carefully and come up with almost a counter to all ninjas in the series and he was only trained for 3 years lol.

Why Itachi, he's bad ass in every way lol I think no one will disagree
his mind is like MInato, think ahead far far away. He is so fast that the sharingan can't even see? He fucks up every ninja out there.

Why Minato? At jounin level, even how many they are, they are not advice but ordered to run once they saw the yellow flash how bad ass is that? And with the current arc, I think most will agree he is one hell of ninja that uses S/T jutsu to the max.

It is sad that pain, itachi and minato died at a very young age :s:(:oh

hibar90

August 16, 2010, 05:37 AM

Lol I thought I will be the only one who believes that Naruto is very talented. :darn

Well, first Kakashi didn't pay much attention to Naruto. second, Naruto has no training ground unlike sasuke at the beginning... Look at him, he is a street child and no future at all if not being taken into school. He didn't have anything at all. and then comes the scroll which a 7 year old kid understands wtf? and mastered it in 7 days or less to actually use it in battle. I think he is almost no read no write to ninjas but what happens when someone help him grow, he grows. It is just like that no one believe him except for the few... well I guess no one wants to teach a stree brat.

Everyone was ahead of Naruto and now he is few or more levels than any other ninja just because someone taught, train, advise and believe him. If that happened on the start of the manga, he might be a god of the world now.

I agree 100% with you. Maybe with EMS you can copy "most" jutsu out there. But with huge chakra pool, naruto accomplished the impossible, fusing rasengan (highest shape chakra) with highest mastery of elemental wind chakra. You can't copy such jutsu without years training your affinity. The eye can probably copy it after training for years first.

However, it's only been a solution of his after time skip. So it's not actually the personal training, but more of his character/plot development. Jiraiya trained him for 3 years personally. Yet, his growth compared to even sakura was minim. Learning KB in "one" night is still a wonder to me, that hasn't been explained properly. Kakashi didn't train naruto because it's not time yet. He train sasuke to help his student. And the one needing help most that time was sasuke. So he doesn't rely on CS. I think if it was naruto he would have figure out a different method to help him. I'm sure kakashi would have taught naruto rasengan, if kishi thought of it before. So with personal training, it doesn't really matter. He will grow when it's the right time to grow.

jiraiyanindo

August 16, 2010, 01:51 PM

I would say haku cus he could do hand seals with only one hand and at the point in the story when they met haku, sasuke was amazed and frustrated that there were people younger than him who were more powerful than him. I think given haku's young age and what he could already do at that age, esp being a hunter nin, that if he had made it to 16 or even 20 he would be a beast. But who know, maybe not.

PainJiraiya

May 25, 2011, 01:00 PM

Every Rin'negan user(so that includes, Rikudou, Madara, Nagato). They have unlimited potential, can learn every technique they wish to, and the Rin'negan makes it easier for them to master the said technique. You can say that the Rin'negan grants them that cheap way of learning jutsus, but let me ask you - Isn't the Rin'negan part of them? Thats like saying: "Shikamaru is weak, and can't do shit... it was just his intellect that defeated Hidan" :D

vanyar

June 01, 2011, 03:13 PM

Hiruzen Sarutobi, hands down the most talented shinobi, has no Dojutsu, Kekkai Genkai, Hiden or special abilities yet was the strongest of the Hokage.

ChelaTHEBEST

June 01, 2011, 05:35 PM

2nd Hokage
- Invented the most powerful jutsu (ET)
- Was the first to use Space time jutsu (It is not known whether Madara could use his during his fight with hashirama)
- Was a pretty damn skilled sensor
- Skilled water jutsu specialist.
- No KG

THM Nindo

June 01, 2011, 10:27 PM

We really should get a definition for "talented".

In any case, I think that the (aside from eventually Naruto and Sasuke that will become the strongest in the end), the two most impressive shinobi so far are Minato and Itachi.
I have seen no one that were so strong that no one would even think of facing them.

- Minato had a "flee on sight" order issue for every shinobi that would see him.
- Everyone that talks about him is only praising how he was the best shinobi they ever saw.
- In the end, no one defeated him. He sacrificed himself to save Naruto.

- Itachi was so strong that he was able to force Danzou and the Elders to follow his order of leaving Sasuke alive.
- He was also so strong than not even Tobi was willing to risk fighting him.
- In the end, even dying, no one was matching his strenght. He died mainly because of a disease and let his brother kill him.

I think it's fitting that they are the two strongest, since, at this point, they might be the only one left that Naruto and Sasuke respectively need to surpass.
Once they will have surpass them, they will truly be the two strongest shinobi of the world.

kelv015

June 06, 2011, 11:14 PM

Hmmm, I'd go with Minato, Itachi, Haku, Kakashi & Naruto in no exact order.
- Minato was simply a beast. He created the rasengan and the Thunder God Technique (albeit with the help of Kushina and the Uzumaki's seal, but still very impressive). He had natural incredible speed and reflexes combined with his intellect. I can't imagine how strong he would be if he had decided to continue living instead of using Shiki Fuujin...heck, what if he would have put the Kyuubi on himself for a little boost? Minato had endless potential, and virtually everyone has admitted it in some way or another (Sarutobi, J-Man, Kakashi, Madara & even Raikage).

- Itachi: He became the leader of a freaking Anbu unit when he was 13...13! He was quite possibly as smart as Minato, maybe even smarter (seeing how he could plan so far ahead). And, as great as Orochimaru was to his own degree, Itachi made Oro look like a clueless 12 year old. Then add his Sharingan/MS Powers and the Totsuka Sword and Yata Mirror (and however in hell he managed to get his hands on them) to his ''resumé''. Plus the fact that Madara agreed to lay his hands off Konoha just to keep Itachi on his side and try to avoid a fight with him.

- Haku: At 15 years old, that kid was supposedly stronger than Kakashi & Zabuza. He was able to EASILY handle both Naruto & Sasuke and even then he wasn't going all out. He was able to make seals with one hand, had great control and ability over his Kekkei Genkai. And he had great durability (taking a chakra blast from Kyuubi Naruto and then a straight up punch to the face with no real side-effects), she had great precision and awareness.

- Kakashi: Became a chunin at 6 years old and Jonin at 13. Has intelligence very similar to that of Itachi & Minato. He is simply put the best ALL-AROUND Ninja. He excels in every category a ninja has (except maybe Stamina but that's only due to the Sharingan). He's currently the only Hokage candidate if there were something to happen to Tsunade. Has great speed and the ability to analize every situation and think up of a counter. Plus, even without being an Uchiha he somehow managed to awaken the MS in his eyes, that is also quite impressive.

- Naruto: When he puts his mind into it, he can be really incredible. In a day he perfect the Kage Bunshin technique, in couple of days he grasped the basics of the rasengan and in a week he mastered it. After that he was able to not only learn Sage Mode quicker than J-Man, but to master it to a degree that was unprecedented. Then, he was able to do something Kakashi nor Minato (maybe because he didn't have the time since his dead was so unexpected but nvm), he was able to add his element to the rasengan. Then add his never expected and always amusing tactics during battle. Take off Naruto's plot induced ''stupidity'' and give him a parent or two during his childhood and you would have a beast never before seen in this manga (either way, he is currently bound to reach that level so...).

Honorable Mentions to: Shikamaru, Sarutobi & Nagato (not Pein, Nagato had the ability to learn every jutsu ever created...a real waste we never got to see what his real body in action).