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TitaniumChloride
May 07, 2009, 02:30 AM
This is where everyone can speculate about suspicious things they've found in the series. Who knows, one of us might be on to something! ;)

Note that the thanks on this post and the several posts immediately after this one relate to the 'Is Cross dead and who/what killed him?' question, which was once the first post. It has been moved to post #20 (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1377225&postcount=20).

List of mysteries in this thread:

Is Cross dead and who/what killed him? (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1377225#post1377225)
What is the 'hidden/reverse' side of the war? (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1342117#post1342117)
The 14th is the 3rd side (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1370647#post1370647)
Use of Crown Clown (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1391689#post1391689)
Akuma's evolution (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1391689#post1391689)
Origin of Noah (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1399720#post1399720)
Magic in comparison to Dark Matter, Noah and Innocence (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1406773#post1406773)
Is Cross a Skull or...? (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1411498#post1411498)
Cross' two Innocences + Akuma Mystery + Skulls, Earl, Cross + The Noahs + Crown Clown (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1413583#post1413583)
About Lavi and Road: Possible allies of the 14th (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1414347#post1414347)
The 'people' Allen might kill are the Noahs (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1421198#post1421198)
Status of the 14th's faction and comparison between the 14th, the Earl and the Order (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1422107#post1422107)
The Noahs crests (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1424395#post1424395)
What if Mana was the 14th and vice versa? (what if Mana was the 14th and the 14th was actually Mana) :new
The Commander in chiefs - Which side are they on, are they Innocence users and are they stronger than the Generals? (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1451613#post1451613) :new


I'll try to make sure everyone's main speculation is on the list, but if it's not here, please PM me about it. (I'm not very reliable by myself :/ )

Siberia
May 07, 2009, 06:14 AM
I think u have done a great job. up to now I believe Cross is definitely alive. Nice work!
Sorry that I couldn't be able to discuss it coz Im not really into Cross, but I really have to give u credits for ur great post

hopeandlight
May 07, 2009, 08:21 AM
yep good job
very thorough

reposted from dgreydivinity

according to number 8 cross is never seen again
so there's a big chance he has pasted away for good
it is not known when these words are said, but if one assumes Allen's saying them from sometime after the war (someone mentioned this possibility ) like here:
http://www.onemanga.com/D.Gray-Man/186/16/
http://www.onemanga.com/D.Gray-Man/186/17/
then it ensures Allen's survival after the war and readers can look forward to the future chapters, in which all these messages make sense
(its not that I don't want Cross to be alive
it just that if Cross suddenly pops up, it would be a contradiction to chapter 169, and I'd want a good explanation )
Cross will probably be a big support to Allen in memory or real form
(and even if he's not alive, he can communicate with Allen through messages recorded by Timcanpy )
I look forward to how Hoshino sensei with develop Cross as a character

cristina23
May 07, 2009, 08:31 AM
Thank you TitaniumChloride for these detailed informations it was very helpful and interesting reading. I don't have any new idea about this :( I didn't remember that in the 10.point, that is very interesting, could be that Leverrier was there, and he helped him to escape, he's definetly a bad guy, but not a murderer becourse i don't think he lied to Link about that, a copy....i don't know, i think that would be too much, but who knows....

And one more thing...i have to ask...youre a CSI fun? While reading your post i had a feeling that i am watching an episode especially in 4. 5. points, i liked them so much. :)

ca12nag3
May 07, 2009, 08:56 AM
another note to make why he is alive *i think* is that if he were dead his controle over Maria would cease to exist and she would turn back to normal. Like being a corps and the innocence would be there and they could retrieve it. Now all they found is Judgement. No Cross no Maria.

Ive got this feeling that Maria is very important to Cross. Why make her a minion/ a puppet. Why keep her in this state of undead? She was a great asset to his power. After all shes his defence and Judgement his offence.
I asume they used to work in a tag team. Like Allen = offence, Miranda = defencive. So far there are few defencive exorsists btw (justs a sidemark).

Also Cross doesnt care for anything anyone says, he was shocked by what lenalee said, that Anita said the same thing about her hair.
What he said in regard to that was interesting as well.
* i wont repeat it cause it goes better with the drawings* Better read it yourself ^^

All in all

1. Cross is alive! (thats like 90% sure to me)
2. Maria got to be either a pupil/teammember/love-interest of Cross. ( shes actuay a bit to old to be a pupil at the time) She *even with her face covered with the butterfly mask, looks at least 22*. If you take the hight and head structure and compare it with all the other mature female characters in the story.
3. Cross learned magical abilities *ancient/dark magic* from either Earl, 14th or Mana. (my bet is the 14th cause he thats Cross is carrying out the will of the 14th, Cross holds no loyalty to anyone ...exept the will of the 14th).
4 There is an alternative possibilty for Crosses behavior the last years also why he took Allen as pupil, ofcorse its said that hes simply carrying out the will of the 14th. A noah seems to be transfered when the host of the noah is still alive but knows death is imminent. Cross told Allen that hes simply chosen cause he was near, or something in that fassion. Now that means 14th was alive during the transfer. What if Mana was a noah as well. He knew the language that the music was written in. He never showed any fighting skills. Even tho its possible he laid low avoiding the attention of the Earl.
This would explain 14th & his brother thing without Mana being a regular human.
Now to the point.
What if Mana transfered his noah to Cross. This would create a loyalty from Cross towards Allen (his brother). It could also explain why Judgement rejected/turned against Cross. Cross turning into a noah. Im not sure what this means for Allen and his innocence if it would reject him. But i asume the more rare symbiont typ is more capable of functioning with a noah cause it can read the mind of its host. Equip typs just dont have that luxury.
As seen how timothy and his innocence even talk to eachother, this just cant be the case with equips.So its logical that Judgement doesnt recognize his wielder if he had changed into a noah.

pure speculation tbh ^^

Siberia
May 07, 2009, 09:05 AM
And one more thing...i have to ask...youre a CSI fun? While reading your post i had a feeling that i am watching an episode especially in 4. 5. points, i liked them so much. :)

plus Criminal minds..so we have to profile the suspect......I think TitaniumChloride has done that already :p

ca12nag3
May 07, 2009, 09:26 AM
yep good job
very thorough

reposted from dgreydivinity

according to number 8 cross is never seen again
so there's a big chance he has pasted away for good
it is not known when these words are said, but if one assumes Allen's saying them from sometime after the war (someone mentioned this possibility ) like here:
http://www.onemanga.com/D.Gray-Man/186/16/
http://www.onemanga.com/D.Gray-Man/186/17/
then it ensures Allen's survival after the war and readers can look forward to the future chapters, in which all these messages make sense
(its not that I don't want Cross to be alive
it just that if Cross suddenly pops up, it would be a contradiction to chapter 169, and I'd want a good explanation )
Cross will probably be a big support to Allen in memory or real form
(and even if he's not alive, he can communicate with Allen through messages recorded by Timcanpy )
I look forward to how Hoshino sensei with develop Cross as a character

Thos pages are about Lou Fa being angry about creating Akuma/Humans and have little to do with Cross Marian. Also Hoshino is infamous for pulling rabbits out of the hat.Few examples.

1. Cross controles Akuma! Chomesuke and 2 others.
2. Road jumps Allen and kisses him on the mouth...wonder if any tongue was involved ^^
3. Lenalees innocence evolves to crystal typ! *tbh its just another symbiont*
4. Timothy converstates with his Innocence. This means Innocence is sentient and more then just a tool.
5. Last but not least Hoshino creates Akuma/Humans!

And these are just the big rabbits, forgot to include Earls rabbit ears ^^. Anyways its not a big surprise if Cross did show up. There is no corps, no Maria or her innocence. Only Judgement. Now if he was dead the other innocence would be there too.
Or else this is a gap too. Cause in every fight there is this big scene were Maria apears out of the cascet, then he pulls Judgement. So no Maria No dead Cross.

TitaniumChloride
May 26, 2009, 09:41 AM
@cristina23,yvonnelsw: Thanks for the compliments guys. :) I have to admit that I don't watch criminal investigation shows, though I did watch a documentary on some murders once, a long time ago. That, and probably Phoenix Wright games were my influence in this area XD.

@hopeandlight: About 8 being said by Allen from future, that's like what I tried to figure out in this thread (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48496), but there's also the possibility that it's not that far into the future. It could be when he's on the run from Order for example. *shrug* I can't wait for those Cross flashbacks though, heh.

@ca12nag3: The idea I have with Maria is that Cross stores her in some kind of magical dimensional space, so technically she would 'cease to exist' if Cross died since no one else could bring her back to the real world. I don't think anyone else would be able to still retrieve her Innocence if that's the case. And there's been quite a few hints that Maria is someone very important to Cross (including the part where he shot at the Earl after he made a comment about her (http://www.onemanga.com/D.Gray-Man/130/06/)). Also, I wouldn't say Cross doesn't care about what anyone else has to say, he's probably just arrogant like that. His reaction to Lenalee when she was talking about Anita was because he was sad that she died when she tried to follow him even though he told her not to.
I'll have to get back to you on what you've said about Cross' relation to the Earl and the 14th however (once I start my next long posts on my other two ideas). It's camp-at-2ch-for-hiatus-details time!
[hr]
Ok, I'm starting part 2 now~ I'll make this one shorter because I'm really sorry about blowing your brains out with information overload.

Mystery 2: What is the 'hidden/reverse' side of the war?
...or more like which one is the hidden side Cross is referring to. Here's how many sides I think we have so far:

The Millennium Earl, Noahs and Akumas
The Black Order, Exorcists, Central and Crow (they're on the same side... for now...)
The Bookmen
The 14th
The Heart & Innocence
Something in Central? (a.k.a Those responsible for Cross' death (http://www.onemanga.com/D.Gray-Man/171/017/) and possibly one reason why the Earl didn't crush the Order in the first place... (http://www.onemanga.com/D.Gray-Man/157/13/))

My impressions about which side is the hidden one is either 5 or 6, leaving out the 14th since according to Cross, the 14th knows about it (http://read.mangashare.com/D.Gray-man/chapter-168/page003.html) (the Onemanga translation is kinda wrong) and what's the point of killing Cross for talking about his own side? Not to mention that it's highly unlikely that the 14th would have an ally in Central that would kill someone who is still on their own side (http://www.onemanga.com/D.Gray-Man/173/02/).

About the Heart & Innocence being the hidden side:
It's pretty clear that the Heart of Innocence (and all Innocence as well I guess) has it's own agenda (http://www.onemanga.com/D.Gray-Man/158/06/) and that it is clearly against the Earl, though we are not certain whether it's because it wants to kill him like the 14th does or something else. And seeing how the Earl implies that if the Order finds something out the Heart will know as well, it's possible that the Heart is already located in the Order or Central.

That also suggests that the Heart could be the 'something at Central' that killed Cross. However, Bookman's reaction sheds some doubt to that, because if he knows that the hidden side is the Heart, Bookman would know where the Heart actually is (at Central) and would make us question why is he keeping this information secret. However, I don't think anyone is supposed to know where the Heart is at this point in the story, so the Heart being the hidden side is the most unlikely option here.

About the 'something in Central' being the hidden side:
This one is tough to figure out. By killing Cross, an important force to win the war against the Earl, it is clear that the goals of the Order and Central are irrelevant to this mysterious party. However, to say that this mysterious side is affiliated with the Earl doesn't seem quite right either because the Earl is not a 'hidden side', though I could be reading this wrong and that Cross was referring to a part of Central that is secretly working for the Earl. But if there is such a thing, why didn't the Earl know about the Akuma Egg parts in Central's posession and the production of half-Akuma? (http://www.onemanga.com/D.Gray-Man/183/05/) Based on this one fact, I can say that this group is not with the Earl, though the Earl might know about it. Others who are confirmed to know of this hidden side seem to be those with the 14th and Bookman himself, but how do they know?

I'm afraid this is all I can come up about this 'something in Central'. Well, there's one more possibility that it's just an unknown side to Central, though how they possess the power to kill a General so quickly is beyond me (adds Grand Generals to the possibility @_@ Yeah, I'm obsessed with trying to find out who these people with no Innocences but have more authority than Komui and the Generals are)


A word of caution about these theories of mine though: It's completely based on the fact that it is the 'hidden side' that killed Cross. If it's actually someone else, this is all for nothing.

Ugh, I'm kinda sleepy now and I don't think I've got all my points down, but what are your thoughts on this guys?

[hr]

On another note, thinking of this added another possibility to Cross' attacker: If they were a Noah, they wouldn't have left Judgement behind too since they aim to destroy Innocence as well, though in this case their priority maybe to just get Cross (though why take away his corpse? Hmmm)
I'll need to append this later. Sleep now zZZZ

ca12nag3
May 26, 2009, 11:59 AM
Hmm the hidden side in the war. Basicaly it could still be under development, so that even Hoshino doesnt know yet how she is going to equip & man this side.
She did introduce a lot of characters to both sides to fill up vacant spots and or create the room for another faction.

Added Exorsists : Timothy, Chaoji.
3rd Exorsists : 5 in total if im right.
Ádded numerous scientists and Adminestrators.

Added Noah: Cyril.
Reenforced Skulls.
And the Earl already has loads of Akuma
Also not forget to mention all the Colaborators that sell souls. Doctors, Nurses & Priests.

Tbh i find it that both sides are getting a little crowded.
So it might happen that from both sides people will break off and join the 14th who have hidden there till his resurection sorta.

As far as the suposed death of Cross and/or Jasdebi im not convinced they are dead.
No corps no death, adding to that Hevlaska only said Cross is no longer Judgements host/acomodator. So that does not directly suport his death. Also there was no crying over Jasdebi like with Skin so i asume they are still alive as well.

The events that took place are rather simple in nature
After the fight with Crory Jasdebi colapsed backwords and i asume they fell thrue a portal to another dimention, like room wise with Roads powers etc.

As for Cross Marian he had a visitor, that visitor caused something or perhaps asked questions, Cross gets shot.
Either by the visitor or to me most likely that Judgement shot him.
After that all that remains is Judgement and Crosses mask cracked and covered in blood.

A little more about this visit he had and the loss of his Judgement. And also linking this with Suman.

Suman gave away information to Tyki in exchange for his life this resulted in him being attacked by his innocence. As his innocence is parasitic its even more dangerous cause it attacks him from within, thus creating a fallen one.
His betrayal made this happen.

Now what if this visitor is/was a enemy/traitor and Cross gave information to the other side. Unknowing that the person hes talking to is not who he/she claims to be. Just like what Lulubell did, or maybe it was her. For instance in the form of the inspector.
His Judgement would turn on Cross being as crude as innocence can be and unforgiving just like with Suman. Only Judgement is equip typ so it dont make him a fallen one.

Still it doesnt say if hes dead or alive, knowing Hoshino she will bring him back. Either flashbacks or in real. He must have been a close friend to the 14th.

(Another sugestion, what if Mana was a Noah as well. And that Cross was Manas Noah new host?) It would not explain the visitor but it might explain why Judgement turned on him.
Also would it not explain the phrase that Allen might have to kill a loved one?
So the visitor might be Road or even the Earl collecting a new Noah. Just like when they came for Skin.
Anyways in some twisted way you might have 2 Noah/exorsists. Allen/14th & Cross/Mana.
I believe that its Allens innocence that keeps the Noah in check that it wont totaly take over.
Or perhaps Cross didnt join the Earl but ran to hide. But then there still is the visitor.

I like to believe that Road is not actualy on the Earls side eventualy. All elements are there to make the bad girl turn good. She seems to love the main good guy in some weird way. And she did not kill any of his friends tho im sure she could have without even trying.
So if she was the one that visited Cross to awaken Manas Noah and if she joined the 14ths side as well it would make sence.

That would explain the visitor, why Judgement fired on Cross, ( he did make his weapon ready to fire so he did recognize the visitor as a threat), also it would suport bookmans thought that Cross ran and that hes in hiding and wont return and that he didnt join the Earl.

Anyways its my thoughts about the subject and i did take all thats said in the story and put it in this theory.

cristina23
May 26, 2009, 03:52 PM
I always thought that the third side is Cross and the 14th, and later some surprise characters who helped them from background for exemple Road from noah's and Komui from the order (don't ask me why these two are so suspicios for me :) )
Cross knows too mutch, and not just about the third side, don't forget the orders secret researche's, and probably a lot of other dirty things so he could have a lot of enemy.
-For the central, if they just recently found out that Cross isn't on there side, and this is just one motive, they could have many other.
-That the noah's wouldn't let there the innocent it's a very good point, so noah's out?!
Oh i almost forgot.......an angry women?-we are talking about Cross so it's not impossible :)))
ca12nag3's theory is very interesting, it's a little bit drastic, but i like it.

ca12nag3
May 26, 2009, 06:43 PM
Well why i put Mana into this theory is that for 1 Mana & 14th are brother, maybe like Cyril and Tyki. Both Noahs.
Also clearly from Skin Borics story he made sure that when he turned Noah that all of his past was dead. And showing in the Noah family is that everything is artificial. Nobody is related in the real way.
So its very plausible that all relations are Noah wise.
So the real Tyki and Cyril arnt brothers but their Noahs are, same way goes for Mana and the 14th.
Would also work this way for the Road & Allen love thingy.

If 14th was able to transfer to Allen it might be possible that Mana transfered to Cross. Cross knew Allen was going to be the 14th. Also Cross took over Allen imidiatly. He could have been there for an transfer of the Noah. Specialy cause Cross knew the importance of Mana for the 14th and the cause. If anything Cross is devoted to its the cause of winning the war. And everyone knows he doesnt play by the rules. Maria is a good example of that.
Another + point for a Noah-Cross would be that a fatal headinjury would not kill him, nor would the loss of large quantities of blood.Noah are near immortal. Only innocence can kill them.

Well thats basicaly all the suport i can think off for a Cross-noah.

TitaniumChloride
May 27, 2009, 01:35 AM
My reply to cristina23 is in the middle of this btw.


Hmm the hidden side in the war. Basicaly it could still be under development, so that even Hoshino doesnt know yet how she is going to equip & man this side.
She did introduce a lot of characters to both sides to fill up vacant spots and or create the room for another faction.

Tbh i find it that both sides are getting a little crowded.
So it might happen that from both sides people will break off and join the 14th who have hidden there till his resurection sorta.

To me it seems more like Hoshino is just leveling out both sides. If she had left the number of Exorcists (which would only be 13 in number excluding Cross) the same as before, it really doesn't look like they'd have a chance against the Earl's army of Akuma (too many to count) and the 12 Noahs (that's excluding Skinn Boric). The number of capable forces against the Earl so far only totals to 19 at the moment, which is still a small number...

The Order is an organization comprised of many departments and would need tons of people to do various jobs. (There's the Science Division, Finder division, Medical division, Communication division and some others) so after the loss of the ones from the attack, they would need to replace manpower in order to continue to function effectively by shifting members from other branches around, so it's not like they have more scientists than before. It's just that some of them getting more of the screen time than they used to. There's not quite enough characters to fully populate another faction yet, if you count only characters that have already made appearances. (And the number of characters so far is nothing near Naruto, Bleach or One Piece, which gave them plenty of opportunities for more factions, but not really)


As far as the suposed death of Cross and/or Jasdebi im not convinced they are dead.
No corps no death, adding to that Hevlaska only said Cross is no longer Judgements host/acomodator. So that does not directly suport his death. Also there was no crying over Jasdebi like with Skin so i asume they are still alive as well.

The events that took place are rather simple in nature
After the fight with Crory Jasdebi colapsed backwords and i asume they fell thrue a portal to another dimention, like room wise with Roads powers etc.

Jasdevi is still alive according to the fan book, so no need to worry there. And what you've said about Cross was only one of the factors that was mentioned in the first post.


As for Cross Marian he had a visitor, that visitor caused something or perhaps asked questions, Cross gets shot.
Either by the visitor or to me most likely that Judgement shot him.
After that all that remains is Judgement and Crosses mask cracked and covered in blood.

A little more about this visit he had and the loss of his Judgement. And also linking this with Suman.

Suman gave away information to Tyki in exchange for his life this resulted in him being attacked by his innocence. As his innocence is parasitic its even more dangerous cause it attacks him from within, thus creating a fallen one.
His betrayal made this happen.

Now what if this visitor is/was a enemy/traitor and Cross gave information to the other side. Unknowing that the person hes talking to is not who he/she claims to be. Just like what Lulubell did, or maybe it was her. For instance in the form of the inspector.
His Judgement would turn on Cross being as crude as innocence can be and unforgiving just like with Suman. Only Judgement is equip typ so it dont make him a fallen one.

Wouldn't Judgement have tried to kill Cross earlier when he first joined with the 14th anyway? And I thought this whole business about Innocence turning on their accomadators was only if they willingly and intentionally betrayed the Innocence, not if information was divulged by accident.

Besides, if Judgement was the one who tried to kill Cross, why did the body disappear? And there's also Bookman's reaction to Cross' disappearance (http://read.mangashare.com/D.Gray-man/chapter-171/page008.html), which strongly hints that Cross is being targeted by something, which could be the hidden side according to my previous post.



(Another sugestion, what if Mana was a Noah as well. And that Cross was Manas Noah new host?) It would not explain the visitor but it might explain why Judgement turned on him.
Also would it not explain the phrase that Allen might have to kill a loved one?
So the visitor might be Road or even the Earl collecting a new Noah. Just like when they came for Skin.
Anyways in some twisted way you might have 2 Noah/exorsists. Allen/14th & Cross/Mana.
I believe that its Allens innocence that keeps the Noah in check that it wont totaly take over.
Or perhaps Cross didnt join the Earl but ran to hide. But then there still is the visitor.

Mana is not a Noah or else the Earl would have taken him too (he was supposed to be with the 14th when he died (http://read.mangashare.com/D.Gray-man/chapter-166/page011.html)). And from the Earl's and the other Noah's reaction to the 14th (http://read.mangashare.com/D.Gray-man/chapter-158/page008.html), I doubt if any other Noah turned traitor as well. I'll talk more about this at the end of this post.

Btw, the whole point in moving to the new Headquarters and using the Ark as transportation was to keep the Earl from knowing their location. I doubt the Earl currently knows where it is. Road can't just waltz in there with her door if she doesn't know where it is either. The main reason the Earl knows where their old one was could be because it had been the same one for 100 years.

Even if you count the fact that the Earl could make an Ark gate at the Asian headquarters, that place is still built like a maze so it would be pretty easy to seal it off and move out through their own Ark gate. (How the Level 3 found it in the first place is beyond me)


I like to believe that Road is not actualy on the Earls side eventualy. All elements are there to make the bad girl turn good. She seems to love the main good guy in some weird way. And she did not kill any of his friends tho im sure she could have without even trying.
So if she was the one that visited Cross to awaken Manas Noah and if she joined the 14ths side as well it would make sence.

There was a note in the fan book about Lavi commenting on Road's fairness when he was trapped in her dreamworld: Not only did she make sure no harm come to him physically, but she also kept her end of the bargain to allow the Exorcists to use her door to escape the Ark (though where it leads might not be so fair).

Note that to Road, her 'family' is special to her (http://read.mangashare.com/D.Gray-man/chapter-118/page013.html) so I don't think she would easily change sides unless the other Noahs do the same. She also seems to like the Earl a lot too because he's the only one besides Allen that she'd kiss (http://read.mangashare.com/D.Gray-man/chapter-110/page013.html).

As for her coming to visit Cross, I repeat what I said earlier about the Earl and co. not knowing where the new Headquarter is. Also, why put the guards to sleep instead of killing them off or something.


That would explain the visitor, why Judgement fired on Cross, ( he did make his weapon ready to fire so he did recognize the visitor as a threat), also it would suport bookmans thought that Cross ran and that hes in hiding and wont return and that he didnt join the Earl.

Anyways its my thoughts about the subject and i did take all thats said in the story and put it in this theory.

Again, I stand by the fact that neither the Earl nor the Noah was the visitor (they don't know where the new HQ is) and the fact that Judgement did not shoot Cross because he turned traitor (else why not kill him when he joined the 14th).

And about Bookman, I don't think he knows the details of Cross' murder (because Leverrier, Komui and the Generals are keeping it secret to not alarm everyone else (http://read.mangashare.com/D.Gray-man/chapter-171/page009.html)) though he surmised that the man is no longer with them according to the rumors of Cross returning to Central and from the dangerous information Cross revealed that night.



I always thought that the third side is Cross and the 14th, and later some surprise characters who helped them from background for exemple Road from noah's and Komui from the order (don't ask me why these two are so suspicios for me :) )
Cross knows too mutch, and not just about the third side, don't forget the orders secret researche's, and probably a lot of other dirty things so he could have a lot of enemy.
-For the central, if they just recently found out that Cross isn't on there side, and this is just one motive, they could have many other.
-That the noah's wouldn't let there the innocent it's a very good point, so noah's out?!
Oh i almost forgot.......an angry women?-we are talking about Cross so it's not impossible :)))
ca12nag3's theory is very interesting, it's a little bit drastic, but i like it.

The thing is though, Cross had already just divulged what he knows of the 14th Noah to Central so there's no point killing him to keep his mouth shut about that one. Central already managed to find out some information on their own. The 14th isn't the 'hidden' side to this war anymore because the important people (Central) have already known about him.

Central should have known by now that Cross wasn't really on their side, though you're right about there possibly being other motives. Maybe Bookman was knew it was Central all along... But why wait to kill him until after he talks to Allen is also another weird point.

Hahaha! XD You may be right about Cross being killed by a woman.

Actually, the 17th manga volume also has an omake that says Cross was killed because of his debts. (A joke obviously)


Well why i put Mana into this theory is that for 1 Mana & 14th are brother, maybe like Cyril and Tyki. Both Noahs.
Also clearly from Skin Borics story he made sure that when he turned Noah that all of his past was dead. And showing in the Noah family is that everything is artificial. Nobody is related in the real way.
So its very plausible that all relations are Noah wise.
So the real Tyki and Cyril arnt brothers but their Noahs are, same way goes for Mana and the 14th.
Would also work this way for the Road & Allen love thingy.

If 14th was able to transfer to Allen it might be possible that Mana transfered to Cross. Cross knew Allen was going to be the 14th. Also Cross took over Allen imidiatly. He could have been there for an transfer of the Noah. Specialy cause Cross knew the importance of Mana for the 14th and the cause. If anything Cross is devoted to its the cause of winning the war. And everyone knows he doesnt play by the rules. Maria is a good example of that.
Another + point for a Noah-Cross would be that a fatal headinjury would not kill him, nor would the loss of large quantities of blood.Noah are near immortal. Only innocence can kill them.

Well thats basicaly all the suport i can think off for a Cross-noah.
Mana was related to the 14th by blood and looking at this picture (http://read.mangashare.com/D.Gray-man/chapter-166/page011.html), they could even be twins. They're not like Tyki and Sheryl/Cyril who are only related as family because they are Noah. But then, the 14th isn't quite a Noah like the others because

he wasn't supposed to exist at all - the fanbook says that he was an irregular in the Noah family that is made only out of 13 members (even the Earl doesn't know how he came to exist)
his shadow is different (http://read.mangashare.com/D.Gray-man/chapter-138/page005.html) from the smiling one Skinn (http://read.mangashare.com/D.Gray-man/chapter-096/page011.html) and Tyki (http://read.mangashare.com/D.Gray-man/chapter-184/page014.html) saw.


Since they're twins and seem very close, it could be that the 14th didn't kill Mana like Skinn killed those that knew him. Maybe not all Noah kill those they knew (Tyki could have known those orphans from before as an example)

Even if Mana is a Noah as you say, I doubt Cross actually went near Mana during the whole time he was monitoring him, which would be problematic if Mana were to try and transfer his memories to Cross. (Cross only approached Allen after the boy killed the Akuma after all and if he was keeping close to Mana in a distance that would allow Noah memories to be transferred, Cross would have been close enough to stop whatever killed Mana)

Erm, I don't really get what you're trying to say by the "Also Cross took over Allen imidiatly" part, but there's no way Cross is a Noah. Another proof would be when he and the Earl met again (http://read.mangashare.com/D.Gray-man/chapter-130/page006.html). They're conversation doesn't seem to suggest Cross is a Noah at all and the 'So it was you' comment later was when the Earl thought he was the one who carried the will of the 14th, or maybe he connected Cross with something the 14th did.

ca12nag3
May 27, 2009, 08:24 AM
Ive retyped over 3 times now to respond to whatyour saying but ill just leave it at it i dont want to get angry or in a fight.

andrewsungchehau
May 28, 2009, 12:08 AM
Is Cyril a Noah?? Why I ask this is because I haven't had any memory that mentioned Cyril is a Noah. I don't think I even seen his Noah side yet. Just because Tyki is a Noah doesn't mean Cyril is a Noah because they are brother. Maybe like 14th and Mana where 14th is a Noah while Mana is a human.

Siberia
May 28, 2009, 12:25 AM
Is Cyril a Noah?? Why I ask this is because I haven't had any memory that mentioned Cyril is a Noah. I don't think I even seen his Noah side yet. Just because Tyki is a Noah doesn't mean Cyril is a Noah because they are brother. Maybe like 14th and Mana where 14th is a Noah while Mana is a human.

Cyril / Sherrill (?)is a Noah confirmed by ch. 158 (http://www.onemanga.com/D.Gray-Man/158/01/)
It says " a new noah appears" n I think it refers to Cyril/ Sherrill (?)

andrewsungchehau
May 28, 2009, 02:13 AM
Cyril / Sherrill (?)is a Noah confirmed by ch. 158 (http://www.onemanga.com/D.Gray-Man/158/01/)
It says " a new noah appears" n I think it refers to Cyril/ Sherrill (?)

Thanks. I guess I miss that part.

ca12nag3
May 28, 2009, 09:05 AM
There has been a lot of coverage of this subject the last months and i felt like putting it all in 1 topic so other topics dont go to far off topic. And also cause i feel like it deserves its own spot.

What is the 3rd side actualy? The 14th was the extra member of the Noah family and he still haunts the Earls mind. He is somehow still alive inside Allen. What took place inside the Noah family isnt realy clear. Clues are dropped here and there but the ones that might know Earl ofcorse and perhaps Road Camalot dont say to much. They dont even say his name.

What is the 14ths connection to the Order? He had close contact with Cross Marian for sure and the Order got a big pile of info about him. Also Cross Marian is able to controle Akuma, temporarily. And he posseses Ancient Magical abilities, same as the Earl has.Who might have tought him?

Mana is for sure the 14ths brother, human or Noah doesnt matter to much as they were very close and Mana lost it when the 14th died, acording to Cross.
Allen seems to be destined to be the new 14th raised and tought by 2 men with great secrets and great knowledge Mana and Cross.

The 3rd side stands and falls with the 14th without him there is no 3rd faction. Whats his agenda? And who does he want to save/destroy? To me it seems like he holds no loyalty to either the Earl or the Order. The biggest clue is that he rigged the Ark and had a secret room on board to overwrite the controles of anyone else. I dont see any logic in destroying its mobility since the Noah thats Earl & Road can travel dimentions thrue portals. They dont need a mobile base.
On the other hand if the 14th knew he would die/need to be reborn, if he wanted to gain controle of the Ark he needs to be able to find it. So that makes it easier.

Thats all for the 1st part of my post ^^

Siberia
May 29, 2009, 09:12 PM
I would try to come up with more ideas but for the time being , I would guess the players in the third side war should be the central, the crows and the 14th.

Come and support ur first post

riki
May 31, 2009, 07:42 PM
I'm going to merge this thread with this thread (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48819) since they are similar.

Change the thread title to better reflect the discussions. ^^

TitaniumChloride
June 01, 2009, 12:28 AM
This post was originally the first post.
[hr]
I've been seeing mentions of Cross in the recent discussions and it was kind of a pain to find them all, so I made this for everyone who wants to speculate. Also, I wanted to share some of my guesses which are pretty much tl;dr (e.g. 'too long; didn't read' = very long winded stuff)

Mystery 1: Is Cross dead and who/what killed him?

List of observations -

Cross was still awake on the night/morning of the attack with Judgment on the floor nearby [page 12, chap 168 (http://www.onemanga.com/D.Gray-Man/168/12/)]
The perpetrator knocked on the door (http://www.onemanga.com/D.Gray-Man/168/14/) several times
Cross picked up his gun (http://www.onemanga.com/D.Gray-Man/168/14/)and then there was one 'click' (http://www.onemanga.com/D.Gray-Man/168/15/) or 'BANG' (http://read.mangashare.com/D.Gray-man/chapter-168/page015.html) sound, depending on the translation (so either it's Judgment or a different gun)
From the blood splatter on the middle window, he was attacked front on while standing upright before falling back against the window to his right [page 17, chap 168 (http://www.onemanga.com/D.Gray-Man/168/17/)]
The blood splatter on the window could suggest that the 'bullet' went clean through his head, but neither did it break through the window nor was it found on the scene [page 17, chap 168 -same page as above (http://www.onemanga.com/D.Gray-Man/168/17/)]
Besides the window and the floor under it, there was no other trace of blood anywhere else [page 3, chap 169 (http://www.onemanga.com/D.Gray-Man/169/03/)] and it was all confirmed to be Cross' (http://www.onemanga.com/D.Gray-Man/171/011/)
The curtain to Cross' left was torn [page 17, chap 168 again (http://www.onemanga.com/D.Gray-Man/168/17/)]
An ominous line appeared on the chapter title of chapter 169: "That was the last anyone saw of Marian Cross" (http://www.onemanga.com/D.Gray-Man/169/06/)
The guards outside his room were put to sleep without noticing anything amiss (http://www.onemanga.com/D.Gray-Man/169/01/) (until they opened the door of course)
According to what they were saying after waking up (http://www.onemanga.com/D.Gray-Man/169/01/), Leverier (or someone that was acting as him) might have been visiting Cross before they fell asleep
Cross' body disappears; the bent frames and lack of glass falling in (http://www.onemanga.com/D.Gray-Man/169/05/)indicate that someone from inside the room broke out
Besides Judgment (http://www.onemanga.com/D.Gray-Man/169/05/), the only thing left behind was Cross' mask (http://www.onemanga.com/D.Gray-Man/171/013/), which was used to determine that he was shot on the right side of his head (http://www.onemanga.com/D.Gray-Man/171/011/)
The amount of blood loss at the scene coupled with the wound mentioned above strongly suggest that Cross is dead (http://www.onemanga.com/D.Gray-Man/171/011/)
Judgment does not acknowledge Cross as it's accomadator (http://www.onemanga.com/D.Gray-Man/171/011/) from then on
Timcanpy is unable to track Cross (http://www.onemanga.com/D.Gray-Man/170/11/) beyond the location where he 'died'
Cross suspected enough before hand to leave (http://www.onemanga.com/D.Gray-Man/167/10/) a 'final' message [1st part (http://www.onemanga.com/D.Gray-Man/173/02/), 2nd part (http://www.onemanga.com/D.Gray-Man/173/03/)] in Timcanpy
Though according to Allen (http://www.onemanga.com/D.Gray-Man/173/05/), Cross wasn't the kind of guy to leave a message like that
Leverier himself admits that he wasn't the one behind the attack [page 16, chap 171 (http://www.onemanga.com/D.Gray-Man/171/016/)]
However, he was fairly certain that Central was involved (http://www.onemanga.com/D.Gray-Man/171/017/)


Points that support the 'Cross is dead' theory: 5, 8, 13, 14 (debatable, see 'Odd Points' below), 15, 16

Points that support the 'Cross is not dead' theory: 9, 11, 14 (debatable, see 'Odd Points' below), 17

Points that hints towards the identity of the one who attacked Cross:
(I.e, why I can't believe theories about Cross setting this whole thing up)

2 - It's strange to knock before killing someone, though I guess there would be less of a struggle...
3, 5 - The attacker seems to also wield a gun
4, 6, 11 - To be able to shoot Cross in his face and not suffer any retaliation before that and then jump out of the ??th floor window with a corpse and vanishing without a trace should be a pretty big hint as to how crazy dangerous they might be
9 - The attacker can put people to sleep somehow...
10- ...and maybe even copy appearances like a certain Noah. This is just a guess though as it's hard to tell how far apart the visit and the attack was.
11, 12- Since Judgement was left behind though, it highly discounts the possibility of the attacker being a Noah (don't they destroy Innocence as well?) and if the goal was to simply kill Cross, why take the body as well? (Or Cross might have still been alive and escaped by then)
18, 19 - Definitely someone from Central


After all that, I still can't really convince myself whether he's dead or not (unless some of you can help tip me over the edge) but I'm really holding out that he's alive. I mean, he shares the same birthday as 'The Boy Who Lived' for crying out loud! (31st of July - Hmm, same as Nevile Longbottom too come to think of that ._.)

My thoughts on 'who did it' however... I'm actually leaning towards one of the Grand Generals. For some odd reason, they're listed under the Exorcists section of the fan book, but don't fit the total of Innocence users. Lulubell's definitely not good enough to pull that stunt off (see third point of list about attacker)

Odd Points -

7- It's the only sure sign of a struggle in the entire scene but there's nothing I can think of that can make sense of this. Anyone?
8- A very literal translation of this line would be "After this day, Cross Marian's figure is seen by no one", which makes it possible that Cross will appear under a different appearance and maybe with a different name or something. Unfortunately, that's just me being really optimistic since the word 'figure' there is usually attached to the subject so it's just 'Cross Marian' like in the scanlation :(
12- Does anyone else think it's kind of suspicious how well placed the mask is or am I just paranoid? It's possible that the attacker was the one who left it there leave more proof to how dead Cross should be.
14- Thanks to ca12nag3 in this post (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1337366&postcount=64), it's been brought to my attention that death of the accommodator does not necessarily mean that the Innocence will no longer accept them. Maria is a corpse after all and if she can still use Innocence... well, magic could be involved in this as well as how hers is a Parasite type, but it's an interesting factor. It's also very likely that she'll turn up sometime later in the manga.


Woah! Ok, I've still got two more things to bring up, but I'll post them later. This one alone already took me a few hours. (I have way too much free time...)

Next up is 'What is the 'hidden/reverse' side of the war?' and then 'What's Cross' connection to the 14th and Mana? (And the Earl?)'

Siberia
June 09, 2009, 10:52 AM
I have thought of two more mysteries.
●The use of Crown Clown
●Akuma's evolution

For the use of Crown Clown, Allen has already said it can slash/kill/eliminate Noah (http://www.onemanga.com/D.Gray-Man/117/14/). But from what we have seen from Tikki (http://www.onemanga.com/D.Gray-Man/124/01/) and the 14th (http://www.onemanga.com/D.Gray-Man/182/11/)'s case, it did't work at all. On the contrary, the Noah inside has been awaken n even became stronger.
(i)crown clown can release Noah's power instead of destroying them, so its sort of useless to Noah.
(ii)If Crown Clown is the God's left hand (http://www.onemanga.com/D.Gray-Man/184/003/) to salvage the sins n it destroyed Akuma so that they can be released from hatred, then how can it save Noah?
(iii) what does the earl's sword (http://www.onemanga.com/D.Gray-Man/117/08/) represent? (don't tell me it's the god's right hand)

For Akuma's evolution, we have seen lv1 to lv 4. They are considered as killing machines which are fused with souls. But when it evolves into a higher level, it looks more human. In ch.182, we can see blood from the scene of level 4's death (http://www.onemanga.com/D.Gray-Man/182/17/) but not just an explosion. so Allen n Kanda were not destroying a machine but killing a life(?).
(i) will lv 5 appear in the future?
(ii) what does the Earl try to hide from the evolution of Akuma (http://www.onemanga.com/D.Gray-Man/158/06/).
(iii)what will be the final form of Akuma>>(human?)
(iv)can Noah control the crows /half akuma?
(iv)starting from level 4, they don't even need the egg to create lv 4 (http://www.onemanga.com/D.Gray-Man/145/05/). so lv 4 is evolved from lv1,2,3?

the forum is almost dead which is quite usual during hiatus. But its kinda meaningless to keep making posts in a few threads. See if we can discuss something deeper

ca12nag3
June 09, 2009, 12:28 PM
Well to be honnest about the Noah/Crown Clown my bet is that noahs never were evil untill the earl took over? Or something like that. So they might be evil now but as they were not evil to begin with the innocence doesnt have the desired effect.

Another possibility might be that Allens innocence is contaminated with noah essence/dark matter.
So as the innocence might be bonded with the 14th it might not see the noah as enemies. Also note that noah have absolute controle over Akuma. Like telling them to selfdestruct and they do. So a noah contamination might not effect the innocence from destroying akuma. Also why it looks like Earls sword might be the effect of the 14th bonding with the innocence.

3rd Option might be that Allen still not fully understands his innocence so asumes he knows how it works but it doesnt. So his innocence cannot and will never destroy noahs, on the other hand it did totaly damage Tyki as he was and everyone knows innocence cant hurt humans *Allen threw his sword thrue Lavi without hurting him*. So what did Allen hurt? Unless he did hurt the noah and perhaps so much that Tyki went uncontious and his noah took full controle.

GinRei
June 10, 2009, 07:35 PM
(iv)starting from level 4, they don't even need the egg to create lv 4 (http://www.onemanga.com/D.Gray-Man/145/05/). so lv 4 is evolved from lv1,2,3?


Well, have we seen any other Akuma evolve before? The only one I can remember is the Mirror Akuma, but that was only in the anime. He was already at level 2 in the manga when Allen and Kanda arrived. For all we know, the egg merely creates the Akuma body used for level 1s, and after that it's all about getting experience.

andrewsungchehau
June 10, 2009, 10:26 PM
Well, have we seen any other Akuma evolve before? The only one I can remember is the Mirror Akuma, but that was only in the anime. He was already at level 2 in the manga when Allen and Kanda arrived. For all we know, the egg merely creates the Akuma body used for level 1s, and after that it's all about getting experience.

Before Allen,Kanda and Toma arrived, the Akuma 1.5 killed one of the finder and evolve to level 2 in the manga. Forgot which chapter(Shame of me), but it should be around chapter 9-10 if I'm not mistaken.

earthforge
June 11, 2009, 08:42 PM
ca12nag3: I disagree with the second possibility - his Innocence (I think) was condemning him for being the host of the 14th in chapter 184. That's what the dream was conveying - there was a large cross that was speaking and talking about the left hand of God, not Allen, saving the souls of akuma. I doubt it's influenced by the 14th. In fact, I think it's pissed with the presence of the 14th.

I think the sword can injure the Noah but only slightly, which further provokes the Noah into an instinctual action. Crown Clown simply is not effective enough against the Noah as of this time. I also think that the Noahs ally themselves with the Earl only to 'get back' at the God that they hate. It may be a revenge scenario where they just won't forgive and form a truce. So they continue to sacrifice themselves for the Earl so they can destroy that God.

Something that struck me about the Noah - if they are separate from normal humans, why do they're memories manifest in normal humans? They talk about genes, but that would have to originate from a virus or being introduced into the normal gene pool. So if that's the case, what's with they're grudge?

addenza
June 11, 2009, 09:23 PM
Something that struck me about the Noah - if they are separate from normal humans, why do they're memories manifest in normal humans? They talk about genes, but that would have to originate from a virus or being introduced into the normal gene pool. So if that's the case, what's with they're grudge?

About that... I believe that Noahs are still human (just that they are a bit harder to kill than the normal ones - that's what Tyki said when he gave Allen and the other exorcists the key to get out of the Ark, right?). And maybe all humans are born with the Noah genes, but only 13 (or 14?) out of the whole human population have the genes awaken. Their grudge against humans... Maybe it's something like what Lavi had believed about humans previously. That humans are stupid and useless because they start wars and cause suffering (or something like that? I can't really remember).

Siberia
June 12, 2009, 01:16 AM
@ca12nag3
I agree Noahs are fallen after the Earl took the lead.
I think thats why the 14th left them (but the 14th is a sin (http://www.onemanga.com/D.Gray-Man/184/003/) , isn't he?)

@GinRei, andrewsungchehau
if evey akuma is evolved from lv 1, that would make senses if the Earl merely needs a new egg to create lv 1 and let them evolve into lv2,3,4 and even 5. Thanks for reminders.

@earthforge
if the Crown Clown can slightly hurt Noah, then Allen really needs to get a stronger weapon. (perhaps he would use the 14th's power). Regarding the origin of Noah, they were lost sheeps n they might wanna get back to the God. Probably the Earl tricked them into the fall and they became the tools of the Earl. Thanks for your opinions

ca12nag3
June 12, 2009, 07:06 AM
About the 14th being a sin i dont realy get that. Could you explain a bit? Cause there is no mentioning of what noah he actualy is, all the Earl said he is an extra member and tbh the Earl lies cause the 14th got powers beyond the normal noahs he can for 1 controle the original ark and only earl + Road can do that, said by the Earl himself.

The Noah dont represent sins btw. Tyki has the noah of pleasure. Jasdero has bonds. And Road got dreams. Id rather call them (state of minds). Perhaps and this is realy far off subject.

The combined noahs form THE Noah but maybe it was impossible to put all that power in 1 human thus its spread out over 14 individuals. Even now you see that if for instance Tyki loses contiousness hes overwhelmed and overpowered by the noah. Stil i see no link with sins/evil in the name * pleasure* perhaps Earl has done something to the noah to make them evil.
Like when Road said Skin Boric is the most strong yet *forgot the words but tunnelvisioned* noah. He enrages so easy cause he is the noah of hate. So basicaly i asume he as a noah under evil is so enraged he can hardly controle it.

I think that concludes my theory about the noah. They could well be *good* or even neutral as a faction but are used by the Earl. Just that its unclear how it came to pass.
What dont match is this and thats why Earl and noah are not the same.
Earl tries to take over the earth with his akuma in the past > God introduces the innocence to combat him> result is the flood or w/e you may call it> God saves the clan of noah.
After this it gets messy and i bet somewhere Earl took controle of the noahs. Earl also pre-dates the noah.

Siberia
June 12, 2009, 08:08 AM
@ca12nag3
From ch.184, I guess "the host for the 14th could be without the sin?" would say the 14th is a sin.
Allen himself was innocent until he became a host for the 14th.

ca12nag3
June 12, 2009, 11:35 AM
hmm well the noah might have commited a sin by allieing themselves with the Earl/ betray God. But to go as far as saying noah= sin, i think is incorrect but i cant tell for sure ^^

earthforge
June 12, 2009, 09:11 PM
Actually, I was recently considered the origin of Noah. Perhaps the Earl intentionally divided the original Noah into thirteen elements, hoping to eliminate a uniting factor where Noah could come together and figure out the Truth. Then we get the 14th, an unknown and unexpected Noah. Maybe he unites the bunch?

I think the sin was committed by the original Noah and spread to all facets of his personality. Probably a disagreement about methods, and then Noah hated being wrong. The Earl manipulates discord, perhaps he destroyed that relationship? I doubt both sides will forgive.

addenza: I agree completely and utterly.

ca12nag3
June 13, 2009, 06:42 AM
Well the way Road talked about God in the beginning reflects what Earl says about God. So either by teaching or indoctrination or manipulation shes parroting him. There is just to few source to make up what a noah is. After all you got 2 conversations with Road, Skins *birth* and a lot of Tyki. Also that the pure noah that awakens from Tyki looks evil to the core is weird. Cause well.... does God save evil things??? You see even Earl citates the Biblical retelling of noah and the ark. So if these noah are the descendants of noah then why are they so evil in pure form? Also it wouldnt match with the peacefull look the original ark has.

shinobi
June 13, 2009, 06:58 AM
I would like to know what was the original Noah's role in the events that happened long ago, was he fighting with the Earl from the start? we know that the Earl who seems to be also human fought the maker of innocence 7000 years ago and lost, but as a result the earth was destroyed by the 3 days of darkness which is also Noah's great flood, so where was Noah here? he also made the noah's ark and died and for some reason his memories were divided to 14 humans holding what so called noah's genes, and they're all pissed off on the exorcists and innocence and wish to erase humanity.

ca12nag3
June 13, 2009, 08:23 AM
Well what if the Earl invaded the ark? Took the noah under controle and only the 14th escaped. Just an idea tho ^^

TitaniumChloride
June 17, 2009, 10:19 AM
Requested question:

What is "magic" earl and cross marian uses? How is it different than dark matter akuma and noah uses or the innocence exorcists uses? What is the nature of it? and etc
[hr]
There's not much revealed about this magic used by Cross, the Skulls and the Earl but there were some odd things about it: this magic is vastly stronger than Innocence: "Such art can be removed only by other sorcerors... Innocence is no use at all!" (http://www.onemanga.com/D.Gray-Man/127/03/) and "A sorcerous barrier cannot be penetrated from within." (http://www.onemanga.com/D.Gray-Man/183/02/)

There's also the possibility that it's this same magic that is used to make Akuma Eggs. Which means that Dark Matter could be made from magic. Since Innocence predates Akumas by a few thousand years, it's very likely, so I guess Magic > Dark matter.

Wait, here's something confusing: (Magic > Innocence) while (Noah = Innocence) so (Magic > Noah) as well!?

Anyone care to take a crack at this? @@ It's looking like the Earl pwns everyone.

ketorin
June 17, 2009, 07:56 PM
concerning the cross thing (sorry if someone has said this) if cross is still alive the mangaka might show us him, cause it only says he was never seen again, by that i am assuming that no one in the order has seen him since, so it might show him again

ca12nag3
June 19, 2009, 03:52 AM
Well... it could just be bad translation as well. Anyways i myself do believe hes alive aswell. ;)

Van's
June 19, 2009, 10:13 AM
Could someone tell me if Cross is a skull? o.o
because of that time when he was in ark and so.. =S

signrain
June 19, 2009, 04:00 PM
I think Cross is half skull. We don't know his age.

ketorin
June 19, 2009, 06:40 PM
i think he is a skull but he got his freedom back like maybe the innocence did something or the 14th was able to give him his freedom just like he can give the akuma freedom from the earl

TitaniumChloride
June 19, 2009, 06:59 PM
Well... it could just be bad translation as well. Anyways i myself do believe hes alive aswell. ;)
What do you mean by 'it could just be bad translation'?


I think Cross is half skull. We don't know his age.

i think he is a skull but he got his freedom back like maybe the innocence did something or the 14th was able to give him his freedom just like he can give the akuma freedom from the earl

I'm thinking Cross probably isn't a Skull because a) he kinda suggested that he was better at magic than them (http://www.onemanga.com/D.Gray-Man/127/04/) b) he's compatible with Innocence (I doubt that Innocence would choose a creation of the Earl's)

My current speculation is that Cross is another immortal sorcerer like the Earl except he takes on different identities and shapes throughout the ages. Maybe he's taken on another form, which is why no one sees 'Cross Marian' again (http://www.onemanga.com/D.Gray-Man/169/06/). Also, Cross and the Earl talk like they've known each other for a very (http://www.onemanga.com/D.Gray-Man/130/05/) long time (http://www.onemanga.com/D.Gray-Man/130/06/).

ca12nag3
June 19, 2009, 08:03 PM
What i ment with bad translation is not that the translators do bad but a lot of things in languages depend on interpertation * if i typed that right lol *. the translation says, indeed. That's the last they have seen of him. said in english that doesnt even come close to someone being dead.
More like someone got kidnapped or ran or just disapeared. But it never ever meens someone is dead.
You can ofcorse argue with me all you want but thats the fact about that typical sentence, now i dont know what the direct words in japanese meen so perhaps it could meen in japanese indeed that someone had passed away/or died.
Then it could be seen as someone died.

ketorin
June 19, 2009, 09:25 PM
My current speculation is that Cross is another immortal sorcerer like the Earl except he takes on different identities and shapes throughout the ages. Maybe he's taken on another form, which is why no one sees 'Cross Marian' again (http://www.onemanga.com/D.Gray-Man/169/06/). Also, Cross and the Earl talk like they've known each other for a very (http://www.onemanga.com/D.Gray-Man/130/05/) long time (http://www.onemanga.com/D.Gray-Man/130/06/).

yeah that is true ( :sweat need to reread dgm)

i just remembered here is another unsolved mystery, who is this guy http://www.mangafox.com/manga/d_gray_man/c137/15.html cause they said that he inherited part of the 14th's will (question cross inherited his will to, right?)

and what happened to maria? if Judgement isn't his innocence anymore what about maria?

and about the person Allen will have to kill when he turns into the 14th, who do you think it is? (one option could have been that he killed cross (though i would not like this option))

TitaniumChloride
June 19, 2009, 10:31 PM
What i ment with bad translation is not that the translators do bad but a lot of things in languages depend on interpertation * if i typed that right lol *. the translation says, indeed. That's the last they have seen of him. said in english that doesnt even come close to someone being dead.
More like someone got kidnapped or ran or just disapeared. But it never ever meens someone is dead.
You can ofcorse argue with me all you want but thats the fact about that typical sentence, now i dont know what the direct words in japanese meen so perhaps it could meen in japanese indeed that someone had passed away/or died.
Then it could be seen as someone died.
Thanks for clarifying. I was just wondering whether I missed a different meaning from that message.

yeah that is true ( :sweat need to reread dgm)

i just remembered here is another unsolved mystery, who is this guy http://www.mangafox.com/manga/d_gray_man/c137/15.html cause they said that he inherited part of the 14th's will (question cross inherited his will to, right?)

and what happened to maria? if Judgement isn't his innocence anymore what about maria?

and about the person Allen will have to kill when he turns into the 14th, who do you think it is? (one option could have been that he killed cross (though i would not like this option))
Thank you for bringing that mysterious old guy up! I almost forgot about him... That guy is someone who's carrying on the 14th's 'dying wish' (this word is more accurate than just the word 'will'), like Cross. There's no way to figure out who he is yet though. :/

I think Maria is still in a magical dimension (kinda like the one the Ark almsot disappeared into). She's just... not existing in the real world. I think.

As for possible candidates for who might be the important person Allen might have to kill... it's really hard to say (there's a quite a few important people in his life now). The only thing I'm leaning towards atm is that person is more likely to be a male (I think the word 人間 used to imply 'men' rather than 'men and women') but I could just be reading into the Japanese words too much, so nope, I've got nothing real to contribute. ><

ca12nag3
June 20, 2009, 06:14 AM
There are a few examples of info were indeed Cross seems to be more and more exepted to do things out of the ordinary.

His using of ancient magic wich he refers to as the same as Earls. Against the skulls and when he said he could dispell the barrier over the akuma egg but lacked the time to complete it.
His ability to controle Akuma, wich is not inherrit to any of his innocence skills. So must be the ancient magic again.
His 2nd innocence is actualy a dead exorsist that he controles, gross tbh.Its taboo by the order but they let him? Strange. And i must asume its the same magic again.
Also when he spoke briefly with with Tyki, he knew straight away that Tyki lost conciousness and his noah had taken over controle also that it would embarrace his answesters or something.
Anyways it implies that he either knows the noah for a long long time or heard this from the 14th but that seems unlikely. Kinda dull if the 14th would tell Marian that its shamefull if noah lose conciousness lol.
And finaly he pulled back Allen from the fight with Earl in the ark cause you cant fight the Earl with anger. So bad thoughts render you helpless vs the earl? Well it seems Earl was sensing Allens state of mind and was happy about what he saw.

So much is still not clarified its hard to believe Marian would be dead. And tbh hes a cool character ;)

destinyv
June 21, 2009, 03:28 PM
Lol, i m a new fan of D. Gray Man, i just watched the anime, but i read from wiki that Marian Cross loses his Weapon, Judgement, so i decided to read up on it...

Here's My Theory

Marian Cross has two Innocences Grave of Maria and Judgement although we know that Judgement is not responding to Cross anymore, the 2nd Innocences is still a msytery, unless they reveal the 2nd Innocences then I would believe that Cross is dead but If i m not wrong, an Innocence would only loses his responses thru its Host's Will, therefore Cross might have broke his connection with his Innocence for another plot, as we all know that Cross works behind the shadow.

However, to me, Cross is something who wield unbelievable knowledge and power for a member of the Order, and who also probably fought the Earl before. His ancient magic ability is still a msytery, and wouldn't it be a possibility that his magic ability has some healing properties like Kanda's incredible healing ability.

What is interesting is, When Cross was "murdered" as For a General which such power, I doubt a gun would take him down...unless the Person who attempted to kill him was also using an innocence.

For me, I think Cross has a darker secret into everything then probably even the Order doesn't know...Although, it still doesn't make sense that a person can possess two Innocences at once...he probably lost the ability to control the 2nd Innoncence, Judgement, While his Main Innocence is Grave of Maria.

The Only thing stuck onto my believes that Cross isn't dead would be this

1. His Ancient Magic (It still not clear about the true potential of it)
2. Grave of Maria
3. His wierd sense of Hatred to the Order drove him to create such a plan
4. The 14th Noah
5. The Earl
6. Allen Walker
7. A Darker Secret

However, Marian Cross is too great of a Character to be killed off in the story, his death would create a hella of a plot twist, just to solve the secrets he knew...


Akuma Msytery

Base on the Anime itself, The 4th Class Akuma was actually born from a BUNCH of 3rd Class Akuma forming into the large funny looking demon.

The theory on why the Earl needs the Egg is that beacuse Akuma are actually not weapons, they are a form of being, When the 4th Class was born, it was form from the bodys of 3rd Class Akuma into a pregnant fallen angel, from where he hatched, it seem surprizing as 4th Class Akuma holds Child-Like thoughts and speaking, it seems the akuma are "reborn" everytime they evolve. My Theory is that the Egg had nothing to do with the Akuma, it has to do with the Ark, the reason why the Earl wanted the Egg was for data containing inside the Egg. At Episode 92~93, General Cross was stopping the Egg from disappear and Allen was able to revive the Egg.

The Reason Behind the Egg, wasn't for the Akuma, but the Data which contain something about it or the Earl find it a waste of time to recreate another Egg and just wanted to steal 1.

Anyway the 4th Class, seems to only be able to be form by the bodies and of 3rd Class Akuma, from Episode 100. However it wierd as to why the skeleton of the 4th Class toke another form... which was completely different from the Akuma machine which the Earl implants into Class One Akumas.


Skulls, Earl, Cross
Oh right, General Cross isn't One of the Skulls as, In the Episode which he saves Allen from falling down, the Skulls which he was wearing merge back into the Mask, The theory of General Cross mask, is that it is able to form into different masks according to his Will, However the Skulls were only scientist, and they were unable to use Magic, mention when General Cross tried to break the Egg, as they were talking about Earl's Magic. However the biggest Msytery would be How is Cross able to wield Magic like Earl?


The Noahs\
lol, This is the part I do not get, The Noah are origins from "Noah" from the ark, however It curious on why do they possess Stigmas which in blibical terms only people related to Jesus would. Another would be, When LenaLee obtain the "crystal" type Innocence her legs also form a Stigma. the 14 Noahs, in my theory, are the 14 different Sins which Noah escaped from. As in the Bible, God destoryed the world beacuse of Man's Sin and Noah was the only saved. So it kinda contradicting as Noah were saved from Man's Sin, yet the "Noahs" contain the Sins.


Crown Clown
Allen Walker's Crown Clown sword, is said to remove Noah from the person possessing it, However, there could be a misunderstanding in Allen's side. The Crown Clown was said to be one of God, which is the oppsite of the Earl, as it seem the Earl had met the Crown Clown somewhere before, from the Picture in Episode 75 when Allen saves Lenalee.

However Noah are God's People and Allen Sword is also part of God, So my theory is that Allen Sword is only able to slay Akuma, however Using the Sword to "remove" Noah is to actually release a cach. which Sealed the Noah Power inside of the Noah Bearers.

ca12nag3
June 22, 2009, 07:24 AM
L well for anyone who wants to discuss this 1 particular issue how about this.

About Lavi.
He always saw himself as some sort of rogue player in a game were he could stand at the sideline and not get involved too much.
When Allen rushed in to fight Tyki Road stoped Lavi from involving and started a game with him, to cut it short eventualy Lavi found Road and his self or perhaps his restrained Bookman self got destroyed in the proces.

About Road.
I wonder why really, why Road did this cause she made him actualy a lot stronger and more determined to fight on the good side as a strong ally of Allen. Perhaps she wanted this?
Another thing is Road let Tyki go on and assault him so badly and she wondered if Allen could do it? Do what? Unleash his innocence or his noah perhaps?

So i wonder if these 2 might become the 14ths strongest allies...

destinyv
June 24, 2009, 02:36 AM
I think ROad was wandering if Allen is able to withstand Tyki attacks, I mean when Allen is fighting Tyki, he only had Edge, he hasn't unleash Clown Sword...

ca12nag3
June 24, 2009, 01:37 PM
Hmm it wasnt like that it was more generaly ment like if he can do it, actualy beat Tyki while no exorsist can. Road was certain Allen would win and thats why she was wondering. Or perhaps thinking that she was wrong. Makes me wonder why she would let Tyki fight him knowing Tyki would be defeated unless she aint on their side after all.

hopeandlight
June 25, 2009, 06:15 PM
yeah that is true ( :sweat need to reread dgm)

i just remembered here is another unsolved mystery, who is this guy http://www.mangafox.com/manga/d_gray_man/c137/15.html cause they said that he inherited part of the 14th's will (question cross inherited his will to, right?)

and what happened to maria? if Judgement isn't his innocence anymore what about maria?

and about the person Allen will have to kill when he turns into the 14th, who do you think it is? (one option could have been that he killed cross (though i would not like this option))

I didn't notice that.
I hope Allen gets to meet him.

Cross tells Allen he must kill 人間 precious to him
人間= human
Allen loves human in general
the Noah are also human, which I forgot until I reread earlier chapters
as the 14th he may love his Noah bretheren very much
as the 14th Allen will be more powerful and unlock some dark secret that shows him why the Noahs got to be killed. Road say the Noah are "sacrificial lambs", so they must be something more than the Earl's henchmen.
so the Noahs could be the precious humans he must kill

ca12nag3
June 26, 2009, 07:36 AM
I think the 14th and his faction are a totaly seperate side in this war with its own agenda. In some cases it includes parts of the Orders ways but in general they dont care for the Order or the pope.
With the death of the 14th the entire faction colapsed and the *i presume* survivors fled into hiding or joined the other 2 factions. The earls and the Orders.

Why? well the old man fled to the Order and Cross Marian seemed to be 1 of his followers. As the Earl killed the 14th i dont think the others including Marian and Mana just stood by and did nothing.
But against the Earls power not even the 14th could make a difference. So i bet they all fled.

On the Earls side the only one that was alive during this part of events was Road. The other Noah were simply not awakend thus dont know about this. So the only available Noah for the 14th was Road. And seemingly she has this affection for Allen it might be that shes actualy responding to the 14th and not the Allen.

Those Lambs could simply meen no more then that Earl has no regard for anyones life and hed put the noah in line of fire if need be and simply let them die for the greater good. Thats no different from the Orders way of things cause they send their exorsists out to do or die in the same fashion.

Perhaps thats were the 14th was different after all. Cause i dont see Cross Marian to be evil or stupid. He would never follow a fool to his doom unless he thought it to be the right way and worth dieing for.

So the real big question in the manga to me is whats the connection between Cross Marian and the 14th. Also what if the 14th realy is some sort of savior to mankind and the Order are just a bunch of blinded fools fighting a war for wrong reasons and with bad methods.

hopeandlight
June 26, 2009, 03:22 PM
ca12nag3 thanks for your response

I think the 14th and his faction are a totaly seperate side in this war with its own agenda. In some cases it includes parts of the Orders ways but in general they dont care for the Order or the pope.
With the death of the 14th the entire faction colapsed and the *i presume* survivors fled into hiding or joined the other 2 factions. The earls and the Orders.

Why? well the old man fled to the Order and Cross Marian seemed to be 1 of his followers. As the Earl killed the 14th i dont think the others including Marian and Mana just stood by and did nothing.
But against the Earls power not even the 14th could make a difference. So i bet they all fled.

On the Earls side the only one that was alive during this part of events was Road. The other Noah were simply not awakend thus dont know about this. So the only available Noah for the 14th was Road. And seemingly she has this affection for Allen it might be that shes actualy responding to the 14th and not the Allen.

Those Lambs could simply meen no more then that Earl has no regard for anyones life and hed put the noah in line of fire if need be and simply let them die for the greater good. Thats no different from the Orders way of things cause they send their exorsists out to do or die in the same fashion.

Perhaps thats were the 14th was different after all. Cause i dont see Cross Marian to be evil or stupid. He would never follow a fool to his doom unless he thought it to be the right way and worth dieing for.

So the real big question in the manga to me is whats the connection between Cross Marian and the 14th. Also what if the 14th realy is some sort of savior to mankind and the Order are just a bunch of blinded fools fighting a war for wrong reasons and with bad methods.

which reminds of a lot of stories like , " The Tower of Druga anime" , where the heros who know how to save the people are few, and the majority don't follow along until the end
the hero struggles for the greater good, but is often not recognized
in DBZ, Gohan is not known by the public as the one who defeated Cell
in Tower of Druuga's 1st season, the emperor takes the credit for slaying the demon, even though it was thanks to Jil and his friends

the 14th operated in the shadows and suffers the distrust of both sides of the war, but perhaps was working for the good of the world

Hadn't thought about that, but it seems that way. I would hope most of the 14th followers went to the Order's side if they did join either of the two groups, since the Order seems to lean more towards the survival of the humans and societies currently in place

the Earl and Order are pretty similar in their way of getting things done
which reminds me of the World Wars and how some soldiers didn't know why they were killing each other
maybe Hoshino will show some despairing moments in which Allen( why kill Noahs ), Lenalee, Kanda.. ponder their existence
I was thinking maybe the Noahs dark matter gets sacrificed to create new souls the new society, but maybe the Noahs are just the H-bombs and the Akuma are planes, tanks, and everything else and the Earl just doesn't want to use them yet

and yeah Cross isn't the type to just follow or do stuff for anyone, he's probably got he's own set of rules for justice

ca12nag3
June 27, 2009, 06:52 PM
Well as the 14th is known for his betrayal also notice the chrest in his music works, and then the noah wear the same symbol under their shoes. Check this out ^^

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r87/Ca12nag3/sealcolect.jpg

Those are Roads and Tyki's shoes ...well more acurate the bottom of their shoes.... Why would anyone wear a symbol on the bottom of their shoes.... --_--

TitaniumChloride
June 28, 2009, 10:47 AM
The symbols seem to be incorporated into the Noah's clothing like a brand's symbol (e.g Gucci with 'G' on everthing, Louis Vuitton with 'LV'). The 14th's symbol can also be seen on Mana's buttons [top panel (http://www.onemanga.com/D.Gray-Man/135/DGM_135_pg15/)].

I'm guessing that each Noah has a slightly different symbol but it's hard to make out the shoe ones. The 'shield' symbols also give me the feeling that the Noahs are kind of like 'royalty' somehow. I wonder if these were made in Sheryl's country.

ca12nag3
June 28, 2009, 11:08 AM
Well its just odd to have it on the bottom of your shoe. Also there went some detail in putting it there so its on purpose. (forgot about Manas buttons)

It is a family chrest and seeming that Mana wears it he might actualy be a noah?

TitaniumChloride
June 28, 2009, 08:27 PM
It could also have belonged the 14th but Mana held onto it somehow.

Actually, the fact that the coat still fit Mana (http://mangahelpers.com/downloads/read-online/7754/167?t=1246238790) back then despite him being the 'older' brother could mean two things:

Mana and the 14th are twins. (Their body shape seems to be about the same (http://mangahelpers.com/downloads/read-online/6491/99) so maybe identical twins?)
The death of the 14th may not have been too long since Mana and Allen's meeting. (Around a year maybe. Also, the condition of the coat (http://mangahelpers.com/downloads/read-online/7754/129) isn't too bad considering his nomadic lifestyle)

hopeandlight
June 28, 2009, 10:24 PM
It could also have belonged the 14th but Mana held onto it somehow.

Actually, the fact that the coat still fit Mana (http://mangahelpers.com/downloads/read-online/7754/167?t=1246238790) back then despite him being the 'older' brother could mean two things:

Mana and the 14th are twins. (Their body shape seems to be about the same (http://mangahelpers.com/downloads/read-online/6491/99) so maybe identical twins?)
The death of the 14th may not have been too long since Mana and Allen's meeting. (Around a year maybe. Also, the condition of the coat (http://mangahelpers.com/downloads/read-online/7754/129) isn't too bad considering his nomadic lifestyle)


or maybe mana and 14th were just the same size as they grew up
my dad wore my uncle's clothing
they were the same size, even though my dad's two year younger

ca12nag3
June 29, 2009, 05:58 AM
Well even tho this might be a regular explanation. Remember Tyki? He could switch apearance + clothing with magical powers. Even tho his true noah ability is to pass thrue all matter. A good link with DBZ is that Piccolo was able to just pop up clothing ( for Gohan & himself ).
So i asume all noah got training in ancient magic that includes change clothing and make objects.

Still the 14th never had such a coat or a hat for instance and Mana does. Manas clothing styl is way more similar to Tyki. It could be possible 14th had such a coat just that i dont see one in any image.
When it realy is 14ths coat its just simple but if its realy Manas why have the coat of arms/ chrest of the noah family unless your one of them too...

ketorin
July 02, 2009, 03:53 PM
It could also have belonged the 14th but Mana held onto it somehow.

Actually, the fact that the coat still fit Mana (http://mangahelpers.com/downloads/read-online/7754/167?t=1246238790) back then despite him being the 'older' brother could mean two things:

Mana and the 14th are twins. (Their body shape seems to be about the same (http://mangahelpers.com/downloads/read-online/6491/99) so maybe identical twins?)
The death of the 14th may not have been too long since Mana and Allen's meeting. (Around a year maybe. Also, the condition of the coat (http://mangahelpers.com/downloads/read-online/7754/129) isn't too bad considering his nomadic lifestyle)


just for the heck of it, what if Mana was the 14th and the 14th was actually Mana

ca12nag3
July 02, 2009, 06:27 PM
that would make cross a liar unless he thinks of death differently. As if the noah inside died and the host lived on.

Anyways 14th+Mana were depicted as 2 persons i doubt they are 1 and the same.

shinobi
July 05, 2009, 09:17 AM
just for the heck of it, what if Mana was the 14th and the 14th was actually Mana

I can't see this happing, it means that Allen is Mana And Mana is Allen since Allen is hosting the 14th... Anyway I don't think Cross was lying, maybe hiding some important stuff and details but not lying all the way, according to him they're two different people...

Siberia
July 12, 2009, 12:07 PM
OMG, u guys discuss too many mysteries n I really need to catch up.

● Commander in chief
btw, besides the general, there are 5 commander in chief (http://www.onemanga.com/D.Gray-Man/6/15/) , the boss of Black order.
1. whose side are they on? the black order's or the central's?
2. Do they have innocence? Are they stronger than the general?

1. I guess they are on the black order's side since they are wearing the black order's uniform.(?), btw, I have too little information about them n its hard to tell but guess.

2. They are in a level higher than the general n I guess they used to be the general n got promoted(?). (but they didn't involve in battles with lv 4 lol, where the hell were they at that time?)

TitaniumChloride
July 13, 2009, 09:48 AM
● Commander in chief
btw, besides the general, there are 5 commander in chief (http://www.onemanga.com/D.Gray-Man/6/15/) , the boss of Black order.
1. whose side are they on? the black order's or the central's?
2. Do they have innocence? Are they stronger than the general?

1. I guess they are on the black order's side since they are wearing the black order's uniform.(?), btw, I have too little information about them n its hard to tell but guess.

2. They are in a level higher than the general n I guess they used to be the general n got promoted(?). (but they didn't involve in battles with lv 4 lol, where the hell were they at that time?)

My opinion is that:

1. The Generalissimos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalissimo) (Grand Generals, Commander in chief, etc... @_@ there's way too many weird translations to keep up with so I'm using the term that the DGM Japanese wiki entry lead to) are with Central.

Though they have absolute authority over the Black Order (they're only superceded by the Pope and Central seems to be on equal footing with them), there's nothing to suggest that they were ever in Black Order HQ at all; even the cloaked figures that were there when Allen first met Hevlaska were only projections of them (that's in the fanbook somwhere, I think). There's also that time when there was a meeting (http://www.onemanga.com/D.Gray-Man/135/DGM_135_pg16/) held by Leverrier, the Heads of the Black Order branches and the Generals but none of the 5 were even present.

So yeah, with their almost non-existant contact with the Order, it's safer to say that they're on Central's side.

2. They're most likely not Innocence compatible users but are strong in some way.

I'd like to point out the way they talked to Allen (http://www.onemanga.com/D.Gray-Man/6/15/): E.g. "Yet again, I have gotten my hands on a god." In my opinion, talking this way makes me think that either they don't actually wield Innocences themselves and admire its power from afar, they're fanatics of all things holy, or if they do have (had?) Innocence, they've gone a bit funny in the head.

And there's also the counter in the fanbook that said there were only 14 Exorcists remaining (during the aftermath of the Level 4 attack). This number is only enough to account for the Exorcists and the Generals (though Hoshino might have not counted the Generalissimo on purpose).

As for how strong they could be, I've only got two guesses depending on what they could be:

They're Elite Crows. - Someone has to reign in any rougue Generals. The main problem with this is that the Crow faction seem to be under Central's authority.
They're badass normals (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BadassNormal) loyal to the Pope. - So these people might not have Innocence, but they've proven themselves incredibly capable one way or another and the Pope believes them to be worthy of leading his Exorcist army.

Siberia
July 13, 2009, 09:57 AM
@TitaniumChloride
thanks for ur reminder! I think I have missed so many things n u remind me of the Pope! By all means, the Pope knows about Allen=the 14th n he's the boss of the central. (the Pope.....the Pope....would he be a new noah but it would be too similar to Fullmetal Alchemist lol)

TitaniumChloride
September 15, 2009, 06:58 AM
I just want to bring up the Earl's hit list (http://www.onemanga.com/D.Gray-Man/43/10/) from a long time ago. The only person that we do know of on the list is Allen (http://www.onemanga.com/D.Gray-Man/55/10/).

My guess is that this is a list of those who were around when the 14th was killed and were possible hosts. There's also the question of why did the Earl for 8 year at least before having Tyki do the assasinations. What do you guys think?

shinobi
September 15, 2009, 09:04 AM
@Titanium:

didn't Tyki kill many exorcists like Suman and others, as well as trying to kill Allen?! I thought this was a list of the exorcists who were killed by Tyki, Kloud and Sokaru's student....

If not, then Tyki is so damn late with his assignment and Earl wont let it go without good scolding lolz!!

TitaniumChloride
September 15, 2009, 09:26 AM
Ah! I didn't think of that! But then why were there still so many names (http://www.onemanga.com/D.Gray-Man/56/03/) in the cell after those other Exorcists and Suman was killed?

I should have put that up earlier but I forgot about it. Sorry. ><

Edit: The link leads to the right page now.
Edit 2: Maybe he got rid of the others after he was done with Allen actually. Hmm...

shinobi
September 15, 2009, 09:59 AM
I think the exorcists were killed before Suman and Allen, when Tyki attacked Suman's cell and killed his team members Suman was scared and told him about the other teams' destination, and Komui reported the death of all the other exorcists to Linalee before Suman's death, so my guess Allen was the last one... but do the name get erased from that card by the death of the person?! I mean I don't remember that the existence of a name in this card means that the person is still alive or that he's dead...

TitaniumChloride
September 15, 2009, 10:23 AM
:facepalm Sorry, I've been an idiot for asking. The Earl himself said that the people on the list are "connected to that traitorous Noah (http://www.onemanga.com/D.Gray-Man/86/11/)." The page said Cross was on the list too and I totally missed that before.

Thank you very much for your answers though! If it wasn't for this, I'd think you'd be right. Someone had to kill all those Suman had betrayed and I've never thought about that at all. Again, thanks! :tem

shinobi
September 15, 2009, 10:41 AM
lolz @ me!! :D I was going in circles thinking it was the exorcists!! :facepalm I forgot about that... and about other stuff and details too :darn I don't know if it's because of the hiatus but I feel like I need to reread some chapters!!..

btw, now that you mentioned all this, this seems to be a long list of names of people that were connected to the 14th!!

ca12nag3
September 15, 2009, 03:39 PM
:facepalm Sorry, I've been an idiot for asking. The Earl himself said that the people on the list are "connected to that traitorous Noah (http://www.onemanga.com/D.Gray-Man/86/11/)." The page said Cross was on the list too and I totally missed that before.

Thank you very much for your answers though! If it wasn't for this, I'd think you'd be right. Someone had to kill all those Suman had betrayed and I've never thought about that at all. Again, thanks! :tem

Well its not that Tykki only killed people connected to the 14th, i asume that he had 2 targets the list of exorcists and the special card for Allen. So his 14th card was Allen. Dabidi & Jasdero had Cross. Skin had Tiedoll, Kanda refered to him as the one after his General.
So i asume the exorsists in common were listed and the special ones were Allen + generals?

TitaniumChloride
September 15, 2009, 09:29 PM
So you're saying that Daisya and Sokaro's team that Tyki was assigned to kill are from 'the first job' while the 14th related people, Cross (even though he's also assigned to Jasdebi for being a General) and Allen are the 'second job'? [Earl handing out tyki's orders (http://www.onemanga.com/D.Gray-Man/43/10/)] That sounds about right.

ca12nag3
September 16, 2009, 06:24 AM
Well yes Tyki was the only one killing many exorcists, as told people missing bodyparts (Tykis skill of going thrue any matter). So its him that did all those killings.
Jasdebi had Cross as 14th related target.
Tyki had Allen Walker.
And i asume Skin Bolic had Tiedoll but its never said anywere if hes related to the 14th, if so then all the generals are?

addenza
September 16, 2009, 06:41 AM
Nope, the generals were thought to have a higher possibility of being the Heart, so the Earl wanted them killed, they aren't all related to the 14th. The Earl assigned the different Noahs to different generals, e.g. Skinn to Tiedoll. Jasdevi were assigned to Cross because he was a general, and then Cross was on Tyki's list because he was related to the 14th somehow. But I wonder how the Earl found out that Cross was related to the 14th. ><

O.o I always thought that Tyki killed all those exorcists just because he happened to bump into them on the way to look for his targets.

TitaniumChloride
September 16, 2009, 06:53 AM
Edit: You beat me to it Addenza! XD

Actually, only 3 of the 6 Exorcists killed had their organs taken out (http://www.onemanga.com/D.Gray-Man/44/12/). Since Tyki's the only one that does that, I'm assuming that another Noah was also going after Exorcists.

When the Earl started targetting Generals specifically (http://www.onemanga.com/D.Gray-Man/30/02/) in order to draw out the Heart ("That's why I attacked the Generals in spite of the sacrifices" (http://www.onemanga.com/D.Gray-Man/158/06/)), he assigned individual Noahs to go after them. We know that:

Skinn Boric's target is Tiedoll
Jasdevi's target is Cross
One unknown Noah's target is Sokaro
Another Noah's target is Klaud


Apparently Tyki isn't a part of the General hunt himself but Cross is still one of those on the hitlist so he has to go after him. [Jasdevi talks about Tyki's job (http://www.onemanga.com/D.Gray-Man/77/15/)] I think this scene also proves that Jasdevi was only after Cross as a General, not as a person related to the 14th.

Come to think of it, were those other Noahs (e.g. Sheryl, Mercima, etc.) already awakened around the time the Noahs had their first manga appearance (http://www.onemanga.com/D.Gray-Man/18/18/)? What were the new Noahs doing before chapter 187 anyway??? :blink (And Lulubell too. She's pretty useful so I'm now wondering what had she been doing before the attack on the Order).

ca12nag3
September 16, 2009, 08:37 AM
Well from http://www.onemanga.com/D.Gray-Man/187/35/
You see Lullubell showing up at Clouds location so she could be her target.
The noah asigned to Tiedoll is dead, so Fiddler could be standing in there as you see his pupil Chaoji and Lavi calls Marie.
And Tryde shows up for Sokalo so he could be his target. With Jasdebi's target missing they are free to help out.
Only on the 14th squad the noah realy send overpower.
The group is Allen, Kanda 3 3rds and Link. And they send 4 noah of wich 3 on Allen 1 on Kanda. Its almost 1 on 1, and seeing those 3rd are no match. Link wont do any better then the 3rds, its basicaly 4 noah for 2 exorsists.
As with the other groups.
Fiddler faces off vs 4 ( if Tiedoll is there 5) exorsists.
Lullubell faces 3 exorsists and a 3rd.
Tryde and Jasdebi face 3 exorsists and a 3rd.

Does this mean Tryde and Jasdebi are considerd weak as noah?
And Fiddler must be realy strong if he faces the bookman and Tiedolls boys.
The strongest team must be Tykki,Sheryl and Mercym cause they are send after Allen. Pure overkill ^^

TitaniumChloride
September 16, 2009, 08:58 AM
Oooh, that could be it. Good thinking!

The pair up between Tryde and Jasdevi vs the Exorcists seems fair. One of them is Sokalo after all and Miranda's Time Record would be good support. Krory's also gotten a lot stronger since the Ark arc and we haven't really seen him in action yet. So 3 Noahs sounds like a good enough match.

It's Lulubell's fight that seems a bit one sided. One Noah vs a Crystal type and a General (plus one newbie Exorcist that won't be of much use since his power lvl is a Lvl 2 Akuma's at best. It'd be interesting to see what happens when he tries to posess a Noah... which is probably not a good idea since the Noah genes could devour his soul or something.)

Fiddler vs the Bookmen and Tiedoll's 2 desciples... Hmm... I have to admit that Bookman and Lavi aren't really that strong at all but Lavi still has more seals to unlock. Chaoji might actually be decent in this fight and Marie should be OK in battle again if he's there. These people are like the average level for Exorcists. :/ It looks like an even battle.

But yeah, Allen's group is definitely overkill. Wisely might join them after he's done too.

MSofAofCOCA
March 25, 2010, 09:38 PM
i don't know if this has been mentioned before (i'll too lazy to go through 6 pages) but in one of the chapters around the time central starts questioning/stalking allen, leverrier/link said that they found some old guy that had info about mana and his brother.....or something like that....personally, i think the old guy is the man that beat up allen the dog (Casimo-i think....), but.......why/how does he know all that about the brothers? or did he only know that they were brothers?