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TravisAxel
May 10, 2009, 08:35 PM
Im pretty sure Zommari was full of himself when he mentioned he was the fastest espada, like Nnoitora said he had the hardest hierro. What do you guys think?

Doombot
May 10, 2009, 10:06 PM
Im pretty sure Zommari was full of himself when he mentioned he was the fastest espada, like Nnoitora said he had the hardest hierro. What do you guys think?

There is no current proof to show which one of them is faster. So atm.. The jury is out until move proof is shown.

Forever_Melody
May 10, 2009, 10:19 PM
Well the fact that they are self-made claims does make them somewhat iffy(ex: Nnoitora saying eh is the strongest Espada).

However, we don't really have much reason to believe they were lying either in these cases.

I mean, no other Arrancar has shown Sonido so fast it can produce after-images so Zommari may still have the fastest Sonido in that aspect. But mind you, the after-image thingy is through repeated and consecutive use of Sonido so perhaps in a singular step of Sonido, there may be someone who can outpace him.

As for Nnoitora, it depends I guess. I always assumed Ulquiora was the one with the tough skin since he always blocked attacks with his hands, but there isn't much reason to doubt Nnoitora that much. He took 2 ceros onto himself and was mostly in good condition.

Weapon_X
May 11, 2009, 06:22 AM
Well I definitely agree that Zommari's Sonido isn't fast as Stark or Barragan. He literally looked like he teleported himself to capture Orihime in the blink of an eye. He did this right infront of Kenpachi and Ichigo, and returned her to Aizen within an instant. If it is teleportation then that would be faster than images.

Zommari isn't definitely faster then that. Zommari only states that he is the fastest because he may not have seen other Espada's abilities. After all the top ranked Espadas wouldn't want to show their abilities.

As for Nnoitra's Hierro, I don't think it was stronger then Ulqy's when Ulqy released. Even when he didn't release, he was able to fight Ichigo in hollow form and sustain no injuries. The fact that Ulqy took a direct Tensa Zangetsu and merely just got a cut on his chest shows that his Hierro bests Nnoitra's.

And I'm sure that the top 3 Espada have a better Hierro then Ulqy and Nnoitra. As the rank increases, so does their power. It just makes plain sense. Aizen is the one who ranked them and he would know who is the strongest and who is the weakest, comapring all sorts of abilities and which one weighs out the other one. :)

Forever_Melody
May 11, 2009, 06:44 AM
Well the rank is based off overall power rather than every singular ability. I mean, it'd be a false statement to say "Espada 3 is superior to Espada 4 in every single aspect". I mean, some Espadas have abilities others don't so it becomes a moot point concerning those...

I mean, it's an easy argument to say that since a character hasn't seen others, he can't comment. I mean, maybe Ulquiorra isn't the only Espada with a second release because the others have been hiding it as well. Or maybe Yammi doesn't know that other Espada can change their rank when they release. It's kinda of an iffy argument in that sense :s You need other supporting claims to make these assumptions because then probably you could rebuttal half the manga like that lol :p

However, you go by what is seen. For example, I think it's a perfectly valid statement to say that Grimmjow might be faster than Nnoitora despite Nnoitora being 1 rank above. Nnoitora hasn't shown nor had comments about his speed while Grimmjow did(not to mention Grimmjow fought with a speed fighter like Ichigo while Nnoitora fought a juggernaut like Kenpachi).

Or say I think it'd be valid to say Szayel is smarter than Nnoitora(I might even say he's shown smarts that so far surpass most Espada we've seen).

However, when speaking of Zommari I agree that the difference in rank between him and even Ulquiorra makes it enough to say that his statement becomes null. However, like I said, perhaps his after image Sonido is a special technique and way to use Sonido that he and only he uses.

As for Hierro, well no other Espada really made much use of their Hierro except Ulquiorra and Nnoitora so it's hard to judge.

Weapon_X
May 11, 2009, 09:24 AM
Well the rank is based off overall power rather than every singular ability. I mean, it'd be a false statement to say "Espada 3 is superior to Espada 4 in every single aspect". I mean, some Espadas have abilities others don't so it becomes a moot point concerning those...

I mean, it's an easy argument to say that since a character hasn't seen others, he can't comment. I mean, maybe Ulquiorra isn't the only Espada with a second release because the others have been hiding it as well. Or maybe Yammi doesn't know that other Espada can change their rank when they release. It's kinda of an iffy argument in that sense :s You need other supporting claims to make these assumptions because then probably you could rebuttal half the manga like that lol :p

However, you go by what is seen. For example, I think it's a perfectly valid statement to say that Grimmjow might be faster than Nnoitora despite Nnoitora being 1 rank above. Nnoitora hasn't shown nor had comments about his speed while Grimmjow did(not to mention Grimmjow fought with a speed fighter like Ichigo while Nnoitora fought a juggernaut like Kenpachi).

Or say I think it'd be valid to say Szayel is smarter than Nnoitora(I might even say he's shown smarts that so far surpass most Espada we've seen).

However, when speaking of Zommari I agree that the difference in rank between him and even Ulquiorra makes it enough to say that his statement becomes null. However, like I said, perhaps his after image Sonido is a special technique and way to use Sonido that he and only he uses.

As for Hierro, well no other Espada really made much use of their Hierro except Ulquiorra and Nnoitora so it's hard to judge.

No, I don't think so. Every Espada who is higher then anyone else must have done something to reach their rank. Aizen was the guy who was testing them who is the strongest and who is the weakest. And even IF Nnoitra's Hierro or Zommari's Sonido is superior then others, still those factors wouldn't even matter if they faced Espadas who are above them. What useful is Nnoitra's Hierro if Barragan can age people by just touching them? Just look at Grimmjow, he is 6th whilst Ulqy is 4th and Grimmjow had sense and use Negacion to trap him, he would have been dead if he kept fighting Ulqy.

Nnoitra's Hierro is strong, yes but the Espada who are above him have stronger Hierro. We can't judge the top 3 because we haven't seen it. I'll explain the rest.

Grimmjow's Heirro was strong, Grimmjow was able to grab Ichigo's Bankai sword and block with his arms and fists without receiving any damage at all, though Ichigo's Getsuga Tenshō attack was strong enough to leave a scar. AND when he released, his Hierro was even stronger. He was hit by a pointblank Getsuga Tenshō from Ichigo Kurosaki in his Vizard state and received no visible damage.

Then you have Nnoitra. To be honest his Hierro wasn't all that. The former 3rd Espada Nel Tu in her adult form cut through his chest with no visible difficulty, and again this shows that rank matters as well. Also when he released, his Hierro didn't become stronger it was just the same.Whilst with Ulqy and Grimmjow, their Hierro become stronger when they release.

Now you have Ulqy. He was able to fight Ichigo in hollow form without sustaining any injuries. He took a direct slash from Tensa Zangetsu and just got a scratch across his chest, while Yammy (when he was 10) lost a arm, and again rank comes into this as well. And when Ulqy releases, his Hierro is even stronger as Ichigo's most strongest attacks don't have any effect on him until Ichigo turns into the Ichigonator.

We can't judge the top 3 Espada's Hierro because we haven't seen it yet.

Now to Zommari's speed. Do you seriously think it beats Stark's speed when he caught Orihime right in front of Kenpachi's and Ichigo's eyes and returned her to Aizen in what seemed like a nano second.

Look at these pages of his speed.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/313/14/He appears
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/313/15/ As Kenpachi and ichigo are about to strike
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/313/16/ Bottom panel. Returned to Aizen in an instant. Just look at Ichigo and Kenpachi's faces, totally shocked.
Now, you seriosuly think that is slower then Zommari? And this was just in his unreleased state, it didn't even look like he was trying. Just imagine when he is trying and when he is in released state.

So Zommari saying that he is the fastest Sonido user and Nnoitra saying he has the hardest Hierro is wrong. As the rank increases so does their power.

Also regarding the Szayel thing. Smartness is just his only ability. We haven't even seen him use Cero, and he is an Espada. He just relies on traps. He just prefers to taunt and torture his enemies with his intellect. <.<

Yans86
May 11, 2009, 10:01 AM
Zommari is so fast that he can do the same move as Ichigonator against Ulquiorra ssj2 :-D

Chaoswind
May 11, 2009, 10:38 AM
Zomari was SHIT, so I don't think he was the fastest.

Nnoitora is arguable, since he took a doble zero and still managed to be alive

Remember Black Gesuga is very much like a Zero, so we can assume the Black Gesuga is like a Zero, all strong hollows can use Zero, BUT all Zeros don't have the same power.

Nnoitora took a Doble Zero, that must have been a little weaker than the Gran Rey Zero, Gesuga energy is very much like a zero, but the concentration, speed and range are different, I am one that believes that If Ichigo fired a Zero his Zero would be stronger than his Gesuga (it has been stated that Zeros are slow, BUT POWERFULL, that is why no one likes to get hit by one).

So yeah, I do agree that Nnoitora STILL seems to have the strongest Hierro (at least unreleased), he took a Doble Zero and was still there, however, whenever anyone else looks at a Zero they seem to prefer to dodge than to get hit by that thing.

Ulquiorra WAS getting damaged by Ichigo attacks, is just that he regenerated very quickly, is like trying to kill an enemy that heals 500 HP every second, when your attacks varelly do 512 of damage.

Anyway, Nnoitora self claim of having the strongest Hierro (unreleased) is still right until someone else recives a similar attack and has little injuries.

Forever_Melody
May 12, 2009, 05:07 AM
@WeaponX:
That's what I was saying -_-; Espadas are ranked based on overall ability, not specifics. Specific abilities might vary within the Espada themselves.

For example, you can't argue the Espada above is better in all aspects than the one below because:
- rank is based on overall ability so specifics may be disregarded when judging overall(random example: Yammi may punch stronger than Szayel, but Szayel's other abilities make him a higher rank on base)
- some Espadas have special abilities which obviously can't be "better" on higher Espadas(ex: I doubt Stark has a better "aging" power than Barragan...in fact I doubt Stark has an aging power at all)

Conclusion:
Yes, I believe Zommari's statement was false.

Yes, Nnoitora's statement is also doubtful, but so far has proven itself to at least hold better than Zommari's.

No, I don't think Espadas can be based off of simple abilities. It's overall strength which determines Espada level, not every.
Ex: An Espada A has grades of 8/10, 7/10, 3/10 in his abilities. This gives him an average of 6/10. An Espada B has grades of 6/10, 6/10 and 9/10. This gives him an average of 7/10. So based on overall abilities Espada B would get the higher rank, but you can see Espada A has 2 abilities where he outclasses Espada B. Espada B is still considered overall stronger, but in some specific given areas Espada A can shine more.

I think a similar logic applies to Aizen's Espada although obviously to a more complicated level.

stevenash
May 12, 2009, 06:25 AM
I believe that Zommari and Noittra statements are more about efficient use than final results...meaning that they are the best at using sonido and hierro (meaning they can use it to their full potential)...for example in Kidou....a person that can use full power of a 80 lvl kido could probably beat someone with a 99 lvl kidou that is not at full power....For example....using sonido increases your speed...so I see there's a possibility that his sonido increases his speed tenfold....while Stark's sonido only increase his speed five times....but end result....still Stark's faster than Zommari....

On the other hand...we don't know whether Stark actually uses sonido to get Orihime...he could probably have a light speed move only he has (like probably it's his hollow abilities...)....I'm saying this...as Halibel was seen the be closest to Ichigo and Orihime during Grimmjow fight and maybe still during Kenpachi's fight...but Aizen doesn't ask her to get Orihime...probably due to Starks ability...

And when Zommari's release....he doesn't have legs....or at lest very short ones...:D...so maybe that slowed him down...:D

First Supervillain
May 13, 2009, 01:34 PM
Well I definitely agree that Zommari's Sonido isn't fast as Stark or Barragan. He literally looked like he teleported himself to capture Orihime in the blink of an eye. He did this right infront of Kenpachi and Ichigo, and returned her to Aizen within an instant. If it is teleportation then that would be faster than images.

Zommari isn't definitely faster then that. Zommari only states that he is the fastest because he may not have seen other Espada's abilities. After all the top ranked Espadas wouldn't want to show their abilities.

As for Nnoitra's Hierro, I don't think it was stronger then Ulqy's when Ulqy released. Even when he didn't release, he was able to fight Ichigo in hollow form and sustain no injuries. The fact that Ulqy took a direct Tensa Zangetsu and merely just got a cut on his chest shows that his Hierro bests Nnoitra's.

And I'm sure that the top 3 Espada have a better Hierro then Ulqy and Nnoitra. As the rank increases, so does their power. It just makes plain sense. Aizen is the one who ranked them and he would know who is the strongest and who is the weakest, comapring all sorts of abilities and which one weighs out the other one. :)

Stark? Maybe but Barragan used time dilation to suprise Soi Fon - its not Sonido so it does not falsify Zommari's claim.

Weapon_X
May 14, 2009, 06:16 PM
Stark? Maybe but Barragan used time dilation to suprise Soi Fon - its not Sonido so it does not falsify Zommari's claim.

Yes, time dilation meaning that he reduces the speed of any target that comes near him making their efforts to attack useless against him as he has sufficient enough time to counter them. This doesn't mean that he is FASTER then them, he is making them SLOWER so he is able to match their speed or be faster then them.

And why are you surprised by Stark? He has shown the fastest speed in the manga, capturing Orihime and bringing her to Aizen instantly. Stark's maybe Sonido, but Barragan's is time dilation. So Barragan could make Stark SLOWER then he is by doing this. But if he didn't then Stark would be faster then Barragan,that's how Barragan's ability works.

Aikidoka
May 14, 2009, 09:28 PM
Well I definitely agree that Zommari's Sonido isn't fast as Stark or Barragan.
How do we know Barragan used Sonido? From what I can tell, he used the time dilation thing on himself to make everything around him move slower, whereas he moves with "normal" speed (relative to him), making it seem like he was fast.

And why would Zommari or Nnoitra be consciously lying? Maybe they just think they're the fastest/strongest. It's not like all the Espada go around to each other showing off all their abilities so everyone else can compare. Maybe out of the others's speed that Zommari's seen, it's true that he's the fastest out of them, and it's just that he hasn't seen Stark actually fight before.

EDIT: Oops, people got to that time thing before I did.

faisfa1
May 14, 2009, 10:21 PM
how do we know that Stark used Sonido... maybe teleportation is one of his powers

Weapon_X
May 15, 2009, 08:37 AM
How do we know Barragan used Sonido? From what I can tell, he used the time dilation thing on himself to make everything around him move slower, whereas he moves with "normal" speed (relative to him), making it seem like he was fast.

And why would Zommari or Nnoitra be consciously lying? Maybe they just think they're the fastest/strongest. It's not like all the Espada go around to each other showing off all their abilities so everyone else can compare. Maybe out of the others's speed that Zommari's seen, it's true that he's the fastest out of them, and it's just that he hasn't seen Stark actually fight before.

EDIT: Oops, people got to that time thing before I did.

Yes, I made a mistake. He did use time dilation. As I explained in the other post.

Exactly, why lie when you haven't seen it? Zommari was just full of himself, when he hasn't seen Stark faster then him. It would have been okay if he had said "I have one of the fastest Sonido" . Why would they be lying? To scare their enemies, and he was just a character who was full of himself. Same thing with Nnoitra, to scare his enemies. And Ulqy said he is the only one who has a second release, we don't know if he is telling the truth or not. It may even bee that the top 3 Espads may have a second release as well.
[hr]

how do we know that Stark used Sonido... maybe teleportation is one of his powers

How do we know that Stark didn't use teleportation and used an advanced version of Sonido? It may even be teleportation but currently we have to say it's Sonido.