PDA

View Full Version : Fantasy Ichigo vs Barragan



drakend
May 18, 2009, 12:30 AM
Firs things first: for those who don't know Ichigonator is the form Ichigo shown in the fight against Ulquiorra... his hollow form with only primal istincts in control.
Now I would like to know your opinions about a fight between Ichigonator and Barragan!
I think Ichigonator may have the upper hand, because he has fast regeneration, which is a good counter technique to Barragan's decay field. I think it's a close fight tough, it depends on how fast is Ichigonator's fast regeneration!

Doombot
May 18, 2009, 12:48 AM
How dare you.

The Tyrant of Skulls, The Colossus of Fear, the Great Skeleton Emperor will curb stomp him. If Ulq was able to "stop" him with interference Barragan will be able to do the same without any. He was shown capable of analyzing how things works and worked out how to turn Fake KT back and would have done so if his fraccions didn't fail. He'd figure out to destroy the mask and I believe his respira would be able to decay the mask off so it would't return.

Game. Set. Match. Evil wins... why? Because Good is dumb.

Chaoswind
May 18, 2009, 12:53 AM
wha...

man, why do you do this?

Barragain Aging seems to be INSTANT, when Hollow Ichigo regeneration seems to be FAST... so a Death Breath on point blank should be able to kill Hollow Ichigo, then again, If Hollow Ichigo just uses his Cero and Sonido in a combination to dodge a Death Breath and counter with his ultra Cero then Hollow Ichigo wins...

Doombot
May 18, 2009, 12:55 AM
wha...

man, why do you do this?

Barragain Aging seems to be INSTANT, when Hollow Ichigo regeneration seems to be FAST... so a Death Breath on point blank should be able to kill Hollow Ichigo, then again, If Hollow Ichigo just uses his Cero and Sonido in a combination to dodge a Death Breath and counter with his ultra Cero then Hollow Ichigo wins...

Barragan seemed pretty fast and we don't know his other skills.. but I think he can take Ichigo with just his basic skill set. Plus Ichigo was only acting on instict and wouldn't see Respira coming.

kkck
May 18, 2009, 01:05 AM
Given what we have seen now of barragan(meaning that my opinion can change once barragan reveals more), I am inclined to believe hollow ichigo can pull it off. Close range combat is probably a bad idea for hollow ichigo so he would have to rely on his long range attacks. Hollow ichigo's cero proved to be quite deadly and cover a decent amount of ground making it quite hard to escape from. Not to mention the following explosion which as I have pointed out many (MANY) times is comparable in size to las noches. We also have yet to see what hollow ichigo's getsuga tenshou can do. Normal ichigo proved to be able to do some quite powerful GT which covered decent ground at decent speed. If ichigo's hollow form getsuga tenshou is as overpowered as his cero then I could see just a few of those taking barragan out. In any case thats just my initial impression, I am still hoping big things from barragan which could change said impression.

Edit: I hate the name ichigonator.

choke_a_beech
May 18, 2009, 01:22 AM
how bout horny ichigo?

Onomatopoeia
May 18, 2009, 01:36 AM
One problem with all of this, Hollow Ichigo is mindless, his chances to Cero off the bat are about the same as him charging Barragan's Death Aura.

One of them will lead to Mihogo's(mindless Hollow Ichigo combined until someone thinks of a better nickname) death guaranteed while the other depends on what else Barragan shows.

drakend
May 18, 2009, 01:39 AM
Edit: I hate the name ichigonator.
Well you're wrong if you call it Ichigo or Hollow Ichigo... it is a different thing!
So use an original name, at least! :D

@Onomatopeia:
Hollow Ichigo, Shirosaki, is nowhere near mindless! Don't confuse the casual reader, please!
The form Ichigo shown in his fight against Ulquiorra is based on primal istincts, a totally different kind of being.

JP_Russell
May 18, 2009, 04:05 AM
Can't really say. Both have yet to show the extent of their abilities (Barragan hasn't used black cero and he probably has other abilities/techniques while released we haven't seen [not to mention the possibility of a second release], and Neo Ichigo [I prefer Underscore's name for it over Ichigonator] never used any of Zangetsu's abilities as I'm sure it could if it needed to).

If I had to guess which would win, I'd say Neo Ichigo. Any attacks from Zangetsu he would use (be it GT or something else) would probably be catastrophic, and I tend to think Barragan wouldn't have enough in his bag of tricks to withstand a destructive onslaught of such a caliber. But again, that's just loose guesswork.

I'll post again when we've seen more of what Barragan can do.

Chaoswind
May 18, 2009, 07:23 AM
Well you're wrong if you call it Ichigo or Hollow Ichigo... it is a different thing!
So use an original name, at least! :D

@Onomatopeia:
Hollow Ichigo, Shirosaki, is nowhere near mindless! Don't confuse the casual reader, please!
The form Ichigo shown in his fight against Ulquiorra is based on primal istincts, a totally different kind of being.

You and the casual reader are wrong

Hollow Ichigo is the name of Ichigo latest transformation because... well HE WAS A FULL HOLLOW

Shirosaki is just the Hollow personality taking over, is not the same...

and there is a BIG chance that Hollow Ichigo was indeed Shirosaki, I mean for all we know, when Ichigo defeated him and sealed him in the deeps of his soul, Shirosaki could have lost all/most of his personality :P

drakend
May 18, 2009, 07:52 AM
You and the casual reader are wrong

Hollow Ichigo is the name of Ichigo latest transformation because... well HE WAS A FULL HOLLOW

You have some nerve posting this crap acting all mighty: Hollow Ichigo, or Shirosaki, was the name given to the hollow side of Ichigo, who appeared for the first time during the Ichigo vs Kenpachi fight.
Ah btw... Ichigonator isn't a full hollow because, you know, hollows DO NOT have zanpkatou, a bankai zanpaktou above all... :rolleyes:



Shirosaki is just the Hollow personality taking over, is not the same...

Is just? LOL
Without Shirosaki Ichigo's hollow side is just a wild beast, while with him he can use complex techniques and strategies.



and there is a BIG chance that Hollow Ichigo was indeed Shirosaki, I mean for all we know, when Ichigo defeated him and sealed him in the deeps of his soul, Shirosaki could have lost all/most of his personality :P
Yeah yeah... Shirosaki would say "I will help you"... :D
That wasn't Shirosaki, it was Ichigo's primal istincts, which manifested themselves in an evolved HYBRID form. If you fail to realize that it's your problem.

Chaoswind
May 18, 2009, 08:04 AM
There is where you are wrong

In the vizard training Hollow Ichigo (PRIMAL instincts outside and personality inside) was using his sword and said sword was also in Bankai.

For all we know the SAME happened this time >_>

drakend
May 18, 2009, 08:24 AM
There is where you are wrong

In the vizard training Hollow Ichigo (PRIMAL instincts outside and personality inside) was using his sword and said sword was also in Bankai.

For all we know the SAME happened this time >_>
That time WAS NOT the same... because Ichigo didn't say a single word. At that time it was just a wild hybrid hollow going onto rampage... this time Ichigo was somehow in "control", even if he wasn't able to recognize friends for foes, he had clear his primary target: to help.

Chaoswind
May 18, 2009, 08:32 AM
So you are saying that a bird that looks like a Duck, flaps its wings like a Duck, swims in the water like a duck, and is YELLOW like a Duck, is not a duck until the damn bird says *quack* -_-?

drakend
May 18, 2009, 10:26 AM
So you are saying that a bird that looks like a Duck, flaps its wings like a Duck, swims in the water like a duck, and is YELLOW like a Duck, is not a duck until the damn bird says *quack* -_-?
Too bad the hybrid hollow of vaizard training and Ichigonator look nothing alike! *quack*

no_regretsYSL
May 18, 2009, 11:33 AM
So you are saying that a bird that looks like a Duck, flaps its wings like a Duck, swims in the water like a duck, and is YELLOW like a Duck, is not a duck until the damn bird says *quack* -_-?


I believe you are simply confused my good sir, Vaizard Training Ichigo was a full Hollow, the newest Ichigo was a full Vaizard. Take a gander at this for further clarification: http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1286538#post1286538



Anyway I think that Ichi would win based on his power overkill. He's got distance attacks and the kind of speed that might break through Barragans Death Breath. But I suppose thats all personal speculation.

Chaoswind
May 18, 2009, 11:50 AM
No?

You sure? cause they seem very alike to me...

Maybe you should pay more attention

Lets see

http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/bleach/en/images/d/de/2416930685_f8c596e872.jpg


Hollow Ichigo in the Vizard training

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/351/02/

Hollow Ichigo vs Ulquiorra (the RAPIST version)

http://mangahelpers.com/s/juni/readonline/21753/4
A little color for the rapist version

After that would you dare to say they are NOTHING alike?

Pfff

SKIN COLOR: WHITE
HAIR: Orange (duh)
Both have Hair in their Wrist
The hands seem to have the same shape (pointy fingers) even though Vizard Hollow had bigger hands
If you look at the right eye of Vizard hollow, is pretty much the same eyes, the new version has.
and lets not forget the stripes that run around both

Actually the only differences are the lack of a tail, and the fact that the rapist version is smaller, everything else is present just that smaller and in different locations -_-

EDIT: Oh and Obviously the HORNS... would hate anyone point out how I missed those


I believe you are simply confused my good sir, Vaizard Training Ichigo was a full Hollow, the newest Ichigo was a full Vaizard. Take a gander at this for further clarification: http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1286538#post1286538



Anyway I think that Ichi would win based on his power overkill. He's got distance attacks and the kind of speed that might break through Barragans Death Breath. But I suppose thats all personal speculation.

WAIT, so just because something like that was decided in a forum that makes it canon?

What if your so called Vizard transformation is just Hollow Transformation (as Kensei was very much HOLLOW like, in the way he acted and looked), your Vizard transformation, would be nothing more than Vizards transforming into their Hollow Selfs yet still remaining in control... so there you go.

drakend
May 18, 2009, 11:53 AM
LOL the mask is totally different and the tail is absent... not to mention that the marks are totally different. Yeah they look the same. Look I'm done wasting time with you dude.

Chaoswind
May 18, 2009, 12:12 PM
LOL the mask is totally different and the tail is absent... not to mention that the marks are totally different. Yeah they look the same. Look I'm done wasting time with you dude.


Holy shit, is not like all the hollows have the same mask, also is not the first time the mask of a hollow changes when some kind of evolution happens -_-

and Vastrolords start as adjucas (with seem to be very animal like) so we can assume most Vastros HAD at some point extra arms or tails, but as far as Kubo implies, they turn out to be very human like when they reach the next step in the evolution (no tail or extra arms?)

Doombot
May 18, 2009, 12:24 PM
Listen. This poll is already over because it's a popularity contest. Without any full information on Barragan... Hollow Ichigo will win because HE beat Ulq and Barragan's limits are unknown. Hell, He only used one power. It's basically mindless vs. a guy that has shown good strategy. No one takes that into account because they think Hollow Ichigo is cooler.

The problem is you said the Hollow that killed Ulq. That hollow didn't run on Shirosaki's personality. It ran on the desire to protect Orihime. So saying it was Shirosaki is wrong.

Onomatopoeia
May 18, 2009, 02:20 PM
Well you're wrong if you call it Ichigo or Hollow Ichigo... it is a different thing!
So use an original name, at least! :D

@Onomatopeia:
Hollow Ichigo, Shirosaki, is nowhere near mindless! Don't confuse the casual reader, please!
The form Ichigo shown in his fight against Ulquiorra is based on primal instincts, a totally different kind of being.

Your basicly arguing a tomato and a tomato are different because of pronounciations people use on them.

Just because someone's mindless doesn't mean that they've lost their primal insticts it means they lose the ability to think rationally/form complex thoughts. The Hollow Ichigo we saw against Ulqui was most certainly mindless not at all like when Shirosaki is in control.

@no_regretsYSL: You used the anime as a valid source of info man. Not a good idea.

kkck
May 18, 2009, 02:24 PM
All I'm saying is there IS a difference between a full hollow and a full vaizard. The very fact that they do not look 100% the same means that they are two different forms. Thats all i'm saying. Ichigo is not a vastro lord because thats a classification of hollows not vaizards. If you still feel like debating go for the gold and reply back but before you do re-read this post and try to understand what I'm saying, not what you want me to say.

While I do think there is a difference between the recent hollow ichigo and the one that appeared in vizards training, I sincerely doubt they are an actual different specie as you are putting it(hybrid and hollow). Even if the shape was different, each of them is as much as an hybrid as the other. If you think about it, both of them used pretty much the same powers which were bankai and cero. The only difference was sonido but we don't have any evidence to actually support that the original hollow ichigo could not use it(unless you think not using the technique proves he could not).

no_regretsYSL
May 19, 2009, 08:32 AM
I specifically said "form" not species just to throw that out there, as in two different forms of the same person...Ichigo has 3 of 'em, Shinigami, full hollow and full Vaizard, why is my stance and opinion so hard to understand.

And I don't mean to make it sound like I talked to Kubo first hand...nothing any fan says is fact thats obvious.


@Onomatopoeia: Everything I used was part of the manga, I just use the anime pictures for clarification on my opinion...I see you referring to how I talk about skin color but like I said, only my opinion, and I had pretty good sources to build my "perspective".

@kkck....I read your quote on the DB movie...ouch is all i have to say after watching it myself...whew.

stevenash
May 19, 2009, 08:50 AM
We still don't know...anything..about what this new form is...I believe it's a new stage of development in Ichigo's hollow powers...not Vaizard....Hollow in Vaizard Training used Bankai, Shirosaki use Bankai, so saying this new form is Vaizard because he's holding Ichigo's bankai is kind of inapproriate.

I think the transformation in Vaizard training was also in berserk mode but it was Shirosaki and looking at it, it seems closer to Kensei's transformation (increase in muscle size and etc)...:D

kkck
May 19, 2009, 10:38 AM
I specifically said "form" not species just to throw that out there, as in two different forms of the same person...Ichigo has 3 of 'em, Shinigami, full hollow and full Vaizard, why is my stance and opinion so hard to understand.

And I don't mean to make it sound like I talked to Kubo first hand...nothing any fan says is fact thats obvious.

@kkck....I read your quote on the DB movie...ouch is all i have to say after watching it myself...whew.

Well, if you say "hollow form" and "vizard form" as if they were different things for ichigo's transformation then there is bound to be some confusion as to what you mean lol. It is as if you expect people to outright understand a concept inside your own head... At the very least you gotta see how the way you phrased things could lead to some confusion.

Now, ichigo is basically "himself" and has his own powers which is represented by either shirosaki or zangetsu. Out of those two, the one who is stronger is the one in control. Both of them are two different individuals but both of them have the same powers because they occupy the same body.

Shirosaki mentioned that when two beings occupy the same body and have the same powers, it is always the stronger one that gets to be then king. The one who is the king is also the one to define the shape of the outer body. In ichigo's case this applys rather interestingly. When ichigo is in control, he has the form of a shinigami with hollow powers. On the other hand, he takes a hollow's form with shinigami powers when his bitter half is in control(I don't really buy the primal instinc thing, if ichigo transformed into a hollow then shirosaki must have had something to do with it).

I don't really think there is such a thing as a full hollow or full vizards form for ichigo. Every form ichigo has been in so far has shown powers of both hollows and shinigamis.
Normal ichigo has shown hollow and shinigami powers(although he has shown to have limited hollow powers considering even shirosaki suggested he still does not have full control over it). Every time ichigo has turned into a hollow he has shown both, the capacity to use shinigami powers(mainly bankai) and the capacity to use hollow powers(mostly cero and high speed regeneration). It is also worth noting that when ichigo met shinji, shinji said ichigo was most definitely not a shinigami but an hybrid. I also what to point out, the previous hollow form ichigo went through behaved in pretty much the same way as the current one, with the difference being mostly in appearance and power(which is why I don't think the hollow shown in vizard training is a different one from the one shown recently).

ganjabuss
May 19, 2009, 11:07 AM
guys just becoz the latest transformation said to orihime 'i'll help u'....
we cant rule out it was shirosaki...in vaizard training when ichigo defeated shirosaki....ichigo turned shirosaki to kurosaki.....that means shirosaki is now ichigo's horse...also in this transformation the black tatoo type star around the hole...i think repesents ichigo is king...
so it could indeed be shirosaki but running on ichigo's instinct to protect orihime....
actually i find this possibility most likely...ichigo's last concious thought was to protect orihime...didn't think abt ishida...ichigonator destroyed ulq...almost killed ishida when he interfered...didnt call orihime by her name..refered her as you...
my take is it is indeed shirosaki but he has to obey ichigo's wishes/instincts as he is horse now...that's why he was completely out of charecter this time...and ichigo didn't remember shit afterwards..

kkck
May 19, 2009, 12:44 PM
I don´t get why the tatoo can represent such a thing. IMO the tatoo is purely decorational. Not to mention similar markins appeared on ichigo´s previous hollow form.

ganjabuss
May 19, 2009, 01:23 PM
I don´t get why the tatoo can represent such a thing. IMO the tatoo is purely decorational. Not to mention similar markins appeared on ichigo´s previous hollow form.

there was nothing around the hole on the hollow form at vaizard training...
i'm not talking abt the markings on the body....
i'm talking abt the black star like markings around the hole...if those are purely decorational then i'm G.W. BUSH

dude we are disscussing things here...when u come to disscuss u should atleast have an open mind...after reading ur replies i feel like i've been conversing with graffities on a wall...:mad

kkck
May 19, 2009, 01:32 PM
there was nothing around the hole on the hollow form at vaizard training...
i'm not talking abt the markings on the body....
i'm talking abt the black star like markings around the hole...if those are purely decorational then i'm G.W. BUSH

dude we are disscussing things here...when u come to disscuss u should atleast have an open mind...after reading ur replies i feel like i've been conversing with graffities on a wall...:mad

Well george, I know you are talking about the marking around the hole. I just don´t get why would they be anything other than decoration. If you believe something and post about it, you should provide reasons for it, how else would you expect people to agree with you? WHat you did is sort of like saying that I believe the one in control at that moment was zangetsu because ichigo did not have a tail and not posting any reasons for it(I do NOT believe that, I am just trying to make a point)

ganjabuss
May 19, 2009, 02:21 PM
Well george, I know you are talking about the marking around the hole. I just don´t get why would they be anything other than decoration. If you believe something and post about it, you should provide reasons for it, how else would you expect people to agree with you? WHat you did is sort of like saying that I believe the one in control at that moment was zangetsu because ichigo did not have a tail and not posting any reasons for it(I do NOT believe that, I am just trying to make a point)

i agree with u when u say zangetsu/shirosaki was in control...but not the shirosaki we knew who only cared for killing...this time it was different..as he wanted to help orihime...and ichigo wanted to protect her in that state[with a hole on his chest]

as for the markings around the hole...i believe it's the sign of ichigo's control[atleast instictive]...reasons...
1. the hollow form at vaizard training didn't have any markings around the hole...

2.all the markings of ichigo's hollow forms[including mask] was dark red[taking from anime/color pages] except the markings around the hole of ichigonator..the markings around the hole was black

3.black is ichigo's color contrasting shirosaki's white...

4.those markings around the hole is very similar to zommari's 'love' marks... as those marks represented his control over the things it was on...
that's why i think ichigo had control[instinctive] over that form

5.compare the form at vaizard training and the form at hueco mundo...
there are some obvious difference..as the one at vaizard training was adjuchas class and the one at HM was VL class..only thing out of the ordinary was the markings around the hole...and marking color is different than what it should be[black instead of dark red]..

6.now compare actions of both forms...only thing out of the ordinary was ichigonator wanted to help orihime....

u should see the connection between the markings around the hole and ichigo being the king/controller...if u still cant..i pity u

p.s. i'm not goerge..

stevenash
May 20, 2009, 07:50 AM
I don't know...I mean Ulq has markings on his holes too right....but it was never implied that the markings are something else...you could assume that's a sign....but it may not be...:D

Onomatopoeia
May 20, 2009, 02:11 PM
4.those markings around the hole is very similar to zommari's 'love' marks... as those marks represented his control over the things it was on...
that's why i think ichigo had control[instinctive] over that form
Really?

Ichigo's marks by the hole (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/350/06-07/) vs Zommari's Love Marks (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/301/01/)
I really don't see the connection(unless I'm thinking of the wrong marks here).

One shows a sun with with 8 wavy lines all coming out of it. Exact same sizes all of them, parellal, colored black etc.

The markings around Ichigo's hollow hole only number 4 and are only focused towards the top side, nor are they of similar sizes ,or wavy. Though they are black and parallel and their is a circle in the middle.

It seems like your stretching to make a connection between the two based on a few physical appearences compared to just as many if not more differences. Especially since all of Hollow Ichigo's actions disagree with you to some extent.

If anything the Ichigo that was seen with VZ's is more like this new Hollow Ichigo then Zommari's love marks are like the markings near Ichigo's chest.

kkck
May 20, 2009, 02:31 PM
i agree with u when u say zangetsu/shirosaki was in control...but not the shirosaki we knew who only cared for killing...this time it was different..as he wanted to help orihime...and ichigo wanted to protect her in that state[with a hole on his chest]

as for the markings around the hole...i believe it's the sign of ichigo's control[atleast instictive]...reasons...
1. the hollow form at vaizard training didn't have any markings around the hole...

2.all the markings of ichigo's hollow forms[including mask] was dark red[taking from anime/color pages] except the markings around the hole of ichigonator..the markings around the hole was black

3.black is ichigo's color contrasting shirosaki's white...

4.those markings around the hole is very similar to zommari's 'love' marks... as those marks represented his control over the things it was on...
that's why i think ichigo had control[instinctive] over that form

5.compare the form at vaizard training and the form at hueco mundo...
there are some obvious difference..as the one at vaizard training was adjuchas class and the one at HM was VL class..only thing out of the ordinary was the markings around the hole...and marking color is different than what it should be[black instead of dark red]..

6.now compare actions of both forms...only thing out of the ordinary was ichigonator wanted to help orihime....

u should see the connection between the markings around the hole and ichigo being the king/controller...if u still cant..i pity u

p.s. i'm not goerge..

First, don't get all self righteous with me:p

Ok, now I know were you are coming from but I still think you are looking way too deep into the tatoo thing. For one thing, as the guy above posted, the tatoo's are nothing alike. The only thing they have in common is the circle in the center but I don't think that is enough to find a connection between two completely unrelated characters.

Also, the actions of both forms were actually remarkably similar. Both of them just performed random acts of destruction without any regard for their surroundings. The only difference between the forms what that in the most recent one, a part of ichigo's subconscious was still managing a word or two, but other than that, the hollow form was in control.

Doombot
June 06, 2009, 12:34 PM
We're going to have to revisit this after Barragan's fights are over.

Ozehro
June 12, 2009, 03:48 AM
ok I hate plotkai style power ups.
so I'm hoping that Ichigo never ever gets more of these boosts.
and in order for that to happen ichigonator must be one fucking power house!
why? because then Ichigo can unlock this new power and be a proper hero
for once. if ichigonator isn't that powerful then that means he's going to get
his ass beaten once again only for a new hidden power to come and save him!

so I'm hoping that Ichigonator could destroy barragan.

that said can ichigonator instant regen? if he could then why couldn't he
regen his broken horn? it seems the ichigonator can't instant regen but
can heal ichigo after leaving... confusing stuff.
but then this could mean ichigonator has no defense against Barragans
decaying breath! so he has to fight him using long range moves.
but ichigonator's cero is not an instant cero like Ulquiorras!!
so Barragan could possibly evade it...hmmm.

that said Ichigonator probably has much more moves we haven't seen...
but from what we saw Ichigonator might actually lose to Barragan!!! :eek:
this is nuts because I think Ulq can defeat baragan!!