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neoleonhart
June 04, 2009, 03:37 PM
first off, i don't know if this is the right place to create this thread or if the nature of this thread is even allowed. i would like to apologize in advance to mangahelpers if this isn't the right place to create it or the creation of this (type of) thread is not allowed.

now as the title suggests this is a fictional (for now..... who knows!!!) battle of who would win in an all out war between these two characters. the reason i'm actually making this thread is that personally i think hitsu's "growth" in the amount of time that has passed since he was recalled from Karakura is utterly absurd. yet he has managed to beat the third espada released. the discussion about her water fueling his power is void since halibel has been shown to control ne state of water just like hitsu can control ne form of ice. and whether logic is applicable to bleach i'll leave for another thread/discussion. him being a prodigy should not be an excuse for such an absurd power up from barely being able to beat fraccion to beating the third espada released without so much as breaking a sweat.

now we have two characters who have been able to beat the no 4 and 3 espada like it was nothing. the assumption here of course is that haliboob is dead:crying. we'll just have to wait and c. shirosaki as he was manifested when ichigo got a hole blown in him was a monster in a whole new league. i mean he literally blew ulqui to pieces like he was nothing.
hitsu beat halibel like she was nothing either. and here is where it starts. hitsu beating haliboob is like saying he is stronger than shirosaki because as we all know it was ulqui who stated that the espada r ranked by power.

so who do you think would win in a battle between shirosaki as he was against ulqui going all out or hitsu who beat haliboob like she didn't even matter???

kkck
June 04, 2009, 03:46 PM
Hollow ichigo takes this IMO.... Also hitsugaya has not won against harribel IMO considering she could still break out and counterattack using the humidity he so kindly provided.

Chaoswind
June 04, 2009, 04:11 PM
Ice means nothing to Arrancars unless said Ice shatters, Grimjaw said it clearly freezing the top layer of his skin is worthless, and Hollow Ichigo II can SURE as HELL destroy the Ice kid, Hollow Ichigo II is not JUST fast as hell, but also BRUTAL, he won't give hitsugaya a second to breath or to prepare anything, so YEAH Hollow Ichigo II wins easily.

JP_Russell
June 04, 2009, 04:39 PM
Shirosaki. The only one who will ever defeat him once and for all is Ichigo himself. But when Shirosaki or any semblance of him comes out, count on him winning no matter who it is he's up against. Hitsugaya, Aizen, the devil, doesn't matter.

Eddy01741
June 04, 2009, 09:45 PM
I wholeheartedly agree with Doombot on Hitsu winning solely on fanservice. So many hitsu fans even though he's never shown us anything impressive until just the last chapter with his "ice from the heavens"....

I consider Hitsu roughly analogus to Hinata in the Naruto manga, not particularly strong, not one of the main characters (well, he's had more page time than most captains, but not nearly as much as renji, rukia, ishida, orhime, or chad), yet has a huge fanbase, the fact that Hitsu is like #1 in the popularity polls (IIRC) proves that...

Anyways, away from the Hitsu fan hating (fan hating, not hitsu hating). TBH. Nothing I've seen from hitsu has been very impressive besides POSSIBLY the ice from the heavens, we will find out how impressive the ice from the heavens is when we see if Halibel is truly defeated. Anyhow, let's see what he's done. He got played by Gin, he got raped by Aizen (moot poiint since most shinigami would too, but just saying...), couldn't beat SHawlong with limited bankai, caught a lucky break with Luppi, his shikai ice attacks were shrugged off by Yammi, and he's fought a tug of war with water/ice against Halibel, he's just lucky that he has this kind of elemental equalizer against Halibel IMHO. What has Ichigo done? He's beaten 6th espada in an all out fight, and was beating Ulquiora unreleased. Then in his super-hollow form, he completely destroyed Ulquiora when in his strongest form.

Unless I see something from Hitsugaya in the upcoming chapters that shows us beating Halibel without just using his elemental equalizer, I can wholeheartedly say that Super-Hollow Ichigo will decimate Hitsu.

magicp7
June 05, 2009, 09:30 AM
That's more than obvious. Shirosaki would rape icebox as if there is no tomorrow. Shirosaki is by far stronger than him. In fact, Hitsugaya has won just a single fight so far.

drakend
June 06, 2009, 02:58 AM
Ice means nothing to Arrancars unless said Ice shatters, Grimjaw said it clearly freezing the top layer of his skin is worthless, and Hollow Ichigo II can SURE as HELL destroy the Ice kid, Hollow Ichigo II is not JUST fast as hell, but also BRUTAL, he won't give hitsugaya a second to breath or to prepare anything, so YEAH Hollow Ichigo II wins easily.
I think Ichigonator will destroy Hitsugaya like a human can destroy an ant. I mean he just have to make a sonido and a white cero (=as powerful as a cero oscuras) from point blank and Hitsugaya is done for.
Ice mirror? No problem... Ichigonator has just to repeat the sequence. Even Hitsugaya's ice grave, the one with flowers, is useless, imho: when the flowers blossom the corpse within the grave remains lifeless. If there is fast regeneration I think the reiatsu taken out by the flowers can regenerate without limit. After the flowers blossom the ice grave breaks and Ichigonator would be free again, if he doesn't break free on his own, of course.


You people are in denial. Hitsugaua will win. Kubo can't allow him to lose.
You popularity plot device may work against other characters, but Ichigo is the main character so Kubo can't nerf him too much... and anyway Halibel is still alive, we all know that. If Halibel and Barragan are really dead then Ulquiorra should have been the second Espada, at least.

kirby800
June 06, 2009, 04:13 AM
People actually voted hitsugaya? WTH? Seems some people are blinded by their fan-boyism! Don't get me wrong i like hitsugaya but i am also a realist and it should be blatantly obvious that shirosaki (ichigonator) would win this fight.

Secondly I agree with drakend about the popularity thing.

De_Piere
June 06, 2009, 04:59 AM
altho i voted ichigonator, aka hollow supersaiyan 2 , i believe that if this escenario was ever publishd by kubo in a light novel away from main story using their real power lvls, kubo would kindly grow hitsugaya an inner hollow who'd transform into a hollow/sacred/ice dragon/white hair who'd eat ichigonator, because altho ichigonator is well godly, hitsugaya is fangirl service godly.

poobert
June 06, 2009, 06:58 AM
Halibel is not dead. She used a water clone Naruto style and is currently lounging behind hitsu about to use her special move Fairy Tail.

Anyway Berserk ichigo managed to sonido right past Uli. Using this Onepiece of information I believe that the Vagabond that is Hitsugaia would stand more of a chance if he stabbed himself in the heart with a Claymore and wrote his name in to the Death Note.

Also Liar Game.


The list of my favorite manga :)

Eddy01741
June 06, 2009, 10:45 AM
You popularity plot device may work against other characters, but Ichigo is the main character so Kubo can't nerf him too much... and anyway Halibel is still alive, we all know that. If Halibel and Barragan are really dead then Ulquiorra should have been the second Espada, at least.
You realize he was joking, right? He was just making fun of Hitsu's HUGE fanbase (IIRC, 1st in last popularity poll).

drakend
June 06, 2009, 11:13 AM
You realize he was joking, right? He was just making fun of Hitsu's HUGE fanbase (IIRC, 1st in last popularity poll).
No I think he was serious about the popularity-kai in Bleach. I agree with his theory to a certain degree, but not against the main character.

Eddy01741
June 06, 2009, 11:18 AM
Alright, my bad, I musta missed your comment about it not working against the main character.

Anyhow, I agree with you, Hitsu gets basically an automatic advantage in fights just due to his popularity. I voted for Ichigo anyways, in a fight w/o biases and all, I don't think Hitsu could even take on Ichigo in his vizard form, and at most he'd have a slight advantage to non-vizard mask ichigo in bankai.

En Yang Ji
July 16, 2009, 08:07 PM
Who do you guys think would win out of Bankai Ichigo and Histugaya? To me it seems like Hitsu is probably around the 5th espada's level, and the 3rd Espada was holding back a lot.

I think as far as reiastu is concerned Bankai Ichigo and Hitsugaya are on the same level with Ichigo being stronger. I think Ichigo would win because of his speed and the new way he use's Kuro Getsuga. Ichigo could just overwhelm him with him his speed and power.

-Ren Boy-
July 16, 2009, 08:31 PM
Who do you guys think would win out of Bankai Ichigo and Histugaya? To me it seems like Hitsu is probably around the 5th espada's level, and the 3rd Espada was holding back a lot.

I think as far as reiastu is concerned Bankai Ichigo and Hitsugaya are on the same level with Ichigo being stronger. I think Ichigo would win because of his speed and the new way he use's Kuro Getsuga. Ichigo could just overwhelm him with him his speed and power.

Really? the 3rd was holding back

IIRC Harribel was a gone if it was not with WW

En Yang Ji
July 16, 2009, 08:50 PM
Halibel had to be holding back most of her power, or Hitsugaya's power increase is too large, to be explained. Hitsugaya would have to have grown stronger than Ichigo and his mask, and at a faster speed than Ichigo. At the very most I see him being on a released Nnoitora's level.

Hitsu beating Halibel in her released form shouldn't be possible for him at the moment.

Mifune_Taichou
July 17, 2009, 01:03 PM
Not necessarily, he didnt win off of being stronger, he won due to his elemental advantage. And yes he did most likely win as Hallibell shouldnt have needed WW to come to her rescue if she was breaking out on her own.

btw this is Shirosaki v Hitsugaya not Ichigo v Hitsugaya. A lot of people seem to be getting confused. I like Hitsugaya and on the latest evidence id say he could take bankai Ichigo no problem and probably edge out a win against mask ichigo/ get a draw-not in the least because of how badly ichigo was raped by the 4th espada before he even went secunda etapa. Shirosaki however is another matter.

Ichigos reiatsu and abilities are incredible, he is simply too crap at using them and that gets him into all sorts of trouble. If shirosaki took over his body he would have finished grimmjow in bankai no mask-he is just THAT much better at fighting. My guess is he spends every second in Ichigos mind training. So Shirosaki v Hitsugaya-Shirosaki wins hands down as much as I dnt like that maniac and prefer Hitsugaya lol.
[hr]

Really? the 3rd was holding back

IIRC Harribel was a gone if it was not with WW

Yay finally someone understands lol
[hr]

En Yang Ji
July 17, 2009, 01:25 PM
Not necessarily, he didnt win off of being stronger, he won due to his elemental advantage. And yes he did most likely win as Hallibell shouldnt have needed WW to come to her rescue if she was breaking out on her own.

btw this is Shirosaki v Hitsugaya not Ichigo v Hitsugaya. A lot of people seem to be getting confused. I like Hitsugaya and on the latest evidence id say he could take bankai Ichigo no problem and probably edge out a win against mask ichigo/ get a draw-not in the least because of how badly ichigo was raped by the 4th espada before he even went secunda etapa. Shirosaki however is another matter.

Ichigos reiatsu and abilities are incredible, he is simply too crap at using them and that gets him into all sorts of trouble. If shirosaki took over his body he would have finished grimmjow in bankai no mask-he is just THAT much better at fighting. My guess is he spends every second in Ichigos mind training. So Shirosaki v Hitsugaya-Shirosaki wins hands down as much as I dnt like that maniac and prefer Hitsugaya lol.
<hr noshade size="1">


Yay finally someone understands lol
<hr noshade size="1">

- Halibel should be too strong for Hitsugaya to win. A couple days before his battle with Halibel he couldn't hurt the unreleased 10th espada, with his shikai. Halibel unreleased should be way too strong for Hitsugaya to hurt her.

- Halibel could do the same as Hitsugaya. Even if Hitsu uses his strongest ice attack, she should of be able to get out on her own, because of the large difference in power.

Mifune_Taichou
July 17, 2009, 01:54 PM
- Halibel should be too strong for Hitsugaya to win. A couple days before his battle with Halibel he couldn't hurt the unreleased 10th espada, with his shikai. Halibel unreleased should be way too strong for Hitsugaya to hurt her.

- Halibel could do the same as Hitsugaya. Even if Hitsu uses his strongest ice attack, she should of be able to get out on her own, because of the large difference in power.

which means there wasnt that much of a dif in power and maybe one day people will learn to live with it. Or they will shoot themselves who knows.

also i dont think using Yami as an argument is appropriate because he turned out to be the 0th espada so we dont know if the 10 actually means he was that weak unreleased or it was just a disguise. Also notice that Yami didnt try to dodge Hitsu's shikai ice attack while Hallibell was at least blocking. If she felt she could just shrug it off she would have done what Yami did. On the whole I really dont think we can say anything by using Yami

Chaoswind
July 18, 2009, 07:38 AM
>_<

So you actually believe that super GAY scream of WW was the thing that broke the Ice?

I think that Scream was more like an alarm that told Starrk, Barragan, and Halibel that the play time was over, just look at Halibel when she breaks free, she is not tired, she is not sweating, she doesn't look drained at ALL, with means Hitsugay strongest attack was completely and utterly USELESS.

Same with Barraga, Soi Fon strongest attack was COMPLETELY useless.

Hitsugaya is NOT equal or stronger than Halibel, you just saw him use his strongest attack and FAIL. yet Halibel is not even trying... I mean what she did? a couple of lame water attacks here and there, and a few SUPER lame Ceros.

All points out that she hasn't been trying... THAT or in truth she is weaker than Nnoitora... and I don't think that is the case >_>

about this thread, I said Shirosaki is a TRUE genius of combat, meanwhile Hitsugaya is a genius at whoring panels... so SHirosaki wins hands down, Heck Shirosaki could win vs Anyone in the series.

Ichigo = a tard that can't use 15% of his Hollow powers, and at best 40% of his shinigami powers.
Shirosaki = A genius that can use both Shinigami and Hollow powers at 100%.

Facts: Shirosaki got Bankai before Ichigo did, learned Gesuga before Ichigo did, improved said Gesuga, OWNED Byakuya, was the sole reason Ichigo could tie with Kenpachi, and knows Telekinesis and the ways of the Force!!!!

Mifune_Taichou
July 18, 2009, 09:01 AM
Ichigo = a tard that can't use 15% of his Hollow powers, and at best 40% of his shinigami powers.



lol I dont agree with the rest of what you said but thats just so true.

NB I still say Shirosaki would obviously beat Hitsugaya but whatever you say you cant get me to agree on the Hallibell point until KT says she could have gotten out herself. ANything anyone says on the matter before that is meaningless.

Eddy01741
July 18, 2009, 01:12 PM
Well, at this point we still don't know whether Halibel was helped by WW to escapet he obelisk, and if she was, if she could have escaped on her own. So it's unknown if the obelisk was able to trap her (although we know it wasn't able to kill her).

Anyhow, I do agree on the thing about Ichigo not being able to use his powers very well. Shirosaki can use them well, but he's just a tad crazy in the head.

THat said, being crazy doesn't prevent him from still being powerful, so I give the win to shirosaki.

Ozehro
July 22, 2009, 04:12 AM
shirosaki would cream him in a minute flat.

ewwwwwwwww!
lol anyway shirosaki definitely takes the win. the only time he was defeated
was by the 4th espada in his secret release doing a surprise move!
so yeah shirosaki is leagues ahead!

Raizen
July 22, 2009, 03:38 PM
I think people who create hitsugaya threads are just bitter that he has such a huge fan base. I think these threads are pointless. SHirosaki is clearly a beast.

Mifune_Taichou
July 23, 2009, 11:03 AM
I think people who create hitsugaya threads are just bitter that he has such a huge fan base. I think these threads are pointless. SHirosaki is clearly a beast.

Precisely, most just make the threads so they can rip on him and call him weak/crap and whine about fanservice. I made a Hitsu v Byakuya thread but I laid out a rule of no mentioning of fanservice right at the beginning and s far its been very evenly balanced and clean of idiots.

I think with a lot of them it comes down to their ego being hurt by the fact so many girls would rather drool over Hitsugaya than sleep with them lol

Random101
July 26, 2009, 01:38 AM
If we're talking Shirosaki as in Ichigo's latest powerup, than it's pretty obviously in favor of that latest and frankly most random form of Ichigo's. However, if we're talking the Shirosaki Ichigo fought in his soul, and only won against because of the factors involved in that fight (Instinct. I mean honestly, Ichigo can't beat something that can casually whack aside his Getsuuga with one hand), then it's a little closer, though ultimately comes down to how quickly the kid can make it snow, because Shirosaki is way better at using Tensa Zangetsu than Ichigo is, and the speed and the Nuke Getsuuga he can use are going to make it really hard.

Hitsug@ya ta1ch0u
July 27, 2009, 03:47 PM
Ichigonator rapes. R2 Ulquiorra is well beyond Hitsugaya Ichigonator is overkill the guy blocked a mini-nuke with his bare hands (Lanza)

DARK
July 30, 2009, 01:51 PM
Definitely "Shirosaki"- Ichigo's hollow.
He is at least as powerful as Ichigo, if not much more powerful. The primary example being that Ichigo, in his hollow form, was able to fight and overwhelm 8 Captain and Lieutenant-ranked Vizards. He also defeated (and killed) Ulquiorra where Ichigo, even with his Vizard mask, failed. It is safe to safe Shirosaki has a much more lasting impact on his and Ichigo's combined power.

Random101
July 30, 2009, 02:42 PM
... What? He overwhelmed one and was promptly put down and pwned by the other 7, and frankly I highly doubt they needed all of them to do that. While I agree Shirosaki (Both ones we could be talking about) is stronger than Ichigo, that example doesn't really work.

Chaoswind
August 01, 2009, 04:22 PM
Lets put it like this

As a fact we know Ichigo gets a HUGE power down because his hollow gets in the way of his powers... and if you remember Ichigo Shirosaki vs Byakuya, Shirosaki was about to KILL Byakuya (I need to say that he made it look like a piece of CAKE) before Ichigo got in his way...

So I believe we have NEVER seen Shirosaki fighting at full power, so all the abilities we have seen so far are probably only a % of what he is capable to pull...

For that and Many Reasons Shirosaki wins... not only vs the Ice kid, but he kicks the arse of everyone, BUT Keigo, Keigo is too awesome for him.

Mifune_Taichou
August 01, 2009, 05:31 PM
Lets put it like this

As a fact we know Ichigo gets a HUGE power down because his hollow gets in the way of his powers... and if you remember Ichigo Shirosaki vs Byakuya, Shirosaki was about to KILL Byakuya (I need to say that he made it look like a piece of CAKE) before Ichigo got in his way...

So I believe we have NEVER seen Shirosaki fighting at full power, so all the abilities we have seen so far are probably only a % of what he is capable to pull...

For that and Many Reasons Shirosaki wins... not only vs the Ice kid, but he kicks the arse of everyone, BUT Keigo, Keigo is too awesome for him.

YES, finally someone apreciates the awesomeness of Kamina Keigo.

But seriously I'm pretty sure Shirosaki is broken in the way that he is meant to be the proper final boss so comparing him to anyone is futile-i cant think of anyone who wont be brutally curbstomped by him with the possible exception of Yamamoto.

Starzen
August 02, 2009, 04:36 AM
I believe both shirosaki and Ichigo are equal in power, in the beginning urahara mentioned that Ichigo is extremely powerful and all he lacks is control and experience, compared to the captains.

drakend
August 02, 2009, 08:35 AM
Guys it doesn't make sense to differentiate between Ichigo and Shirosaki: they're one and the same. I think Ichigo is like the Mystery of the Trinity: The Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit. Shirosaki is Ichigo without all of his costraints about not killing the enemy, to fight only to protect his nakama and so on.
If Ichigo would see one of his nakama killed I bet he could harness much more of his true power.

xXAshisogiJizoXx
August 02, 2009, 11:14 AM
the fact the even 7 people voted for hitsu is annoying. after seeing what had happened to ulqi...oh wait, hitsu is holding his own against an espada one rank higher who never seemed to be taking her fight all too seriously, that must mean he is stronger, know i see ;)

Mifune_Taichou
August 02, 2009, 12:28 PM
the fact the even 7 people voted for hitsu is annoying. after seeing what had happened to ulqi...oh wait, hitsu is holding his own against an espada one rank higher who never seemed to be taking her fight all too seriously, that must mean he is stronger, know i see ;)

You make me laugh. 1. Ulquiorra has Nothing to do with this discussion. 2. People have a right to vote how they like-who made you king of bleach truth? I voted for Shirosaki for obvious reasons but its not your place to ridicule people. And get over the Hitsu hate thing already-there's nothing to show she wasnt fighting seriously-theres just a buch of people who say that for all to hear because they cant hanlde the fact she turned out to be average. She lost the battle. Everything else is meaningless. If people take that to mean Hitsu stands a chance against Shirosaki, then thats their right even though I or you may not agree. We dont get to say their viewpoint is stupid however.

xXAshisogiJizoXx
August 02, 2009, 03:45 PM
You make me laugh. 1. Ulquiorra has Nothing to do with this discussion. 2. People have a right to vote how they like-who made you king of bleach truth? I voted for Shirosaki for obvious reasons but its not your place to ridicule people. And get over the Hitsu hate thing already-there's nothing to show she wasnt fighting seriously-theres just a buch of people who say that for all to hear because they cant hanlde the fact she turned out to be average. She lost the battle. Everything else is meaningless. If people take that to mean Hitsu stands a chance against Shirosaki, then thats their right even though I or you may not agree. We dont get to say their viewpoint is stupid however.

Right back at yuh, funny guy
1. i assume if were gonna compare the strengths of two people who have never fought, you should compare them based on the people they have fought and their relative strengths. and that creature that beat ulqiorra is a manifestation of shirosaki, one way or another
2. obviously posts are almost always opinions, so it should be assumed that what i said was as such, sorry for not blatantly saying that. i have never stated my opinions to be fact on any forum and your "king of bleach truth" comment pissed me off. also as opinions are formed more from perspective rather than intelligence, mocking another's opinion is not the same as calling them stupid. Sry if my impersonal sarcasm bothered you

Random101
August 02, 2009, 07:03 PM
Actually I heavily doubt that was a manifestation of Shirosaki, for the simple reason that Ichigo was apparently the one speaking, even if he was in no way in control of his actions. I highly doubt that if Shirosaki was in control, he would care in the least bit about Orihime.

Frankly much more likely, that thing was a monstrosity Orihime created. It's the only explanation that really isn't complete BS, and would frankly be the one thing of importance the girl actually did. He was in the rejection barrier after all before he turned into it, and the most likely conclusion is that in her "SAVE US KUROSAKI" breakdown she quite simply rejected the fact that Ichigo was weaker than Ulquilorra. Which took hold in the simplest way possible, through the hollow form, to disastrous results.

If we're talking Shirosaki himself, frankly Ichigo's inner persona is the most obvious avatar, particularly since, save that one time with Byakuya, we haven't really seen him in control of any of Ichigo's hollow transformations. Meaning Bankai Ichigo with far, FAR more skill is the only powers he's revealed thus far. Naturally that in itself likely still gives him the edge, because Ichigo has gotten so bad with that form that his bankai itself is apparently obsolete in addition to shikai, but not so much that it's a 100% pwnage.

xXAshisogiJizoXx
August 02, 2009, 07:22 PM
@random101
i dont mean that shirosaki was in control, its just that shirosaki represents ichi's hollow side, and whatever ulqi fought was clearly hollow, so while it was most likely very indirectly, shirosaki's power/influence was definitely involved

Random101
August 02, 2009, 08:18 PM
Power probably, though again you can argue it. None of his influence though, that was made very clear. Again, this boils down to if we literally mean Shirosaki, or just Ichigo's Hollow Form thing. Frankly if we're talking 'Shirosaki' though, it should literally be him. Not that thing if the actual personality has never been shown in control of it.

xXAshisogiJizoXx
August 02, 2009, 09:06 PM
Power probably, though again you can argue it. None of his influence though, that was made very clear. Again, this boils down to if we literally mean Shirosaki, or just Ichigo's Hollow Form thing. Frankly if we're talking 'Shirosaki' though, it should literally be him. Not that thing if the actual personality has never been shown in control of it.

i mostly agree with you, its just i see that mindless hollow form as shirosaki's power, which is what i meant by influence, not the personality of shirosaki in control. as you said, this is all debatable, until kubo gives an explanation as to what exactly happened to ichi during the ulqi fight. but i liked that theory of orihime causing it unknowingly though in your previous post

ryanzokuken
August 02, 2009, 09:49 PM
You make me laugh. 1. Ulquiorra has Nothing to do with this discussion. 2. People have a right to vote how they like-who made you king of bleach truth? I voted for Shirosaki for obvious reasons but its not your place to ridicule people. And get over the Hitsu hate thing already-there's nothing to show she wasnt fighting seriously-theres just a buch of people who say that for all to hear because they cant hanlde the fact she turned out to be average. She lost the battle. Everything else is meaningless. If people take that to mean Hitsu stands a chance against Shirosaki, then thats their right even though I or you may not agree. We dont get to say their viewpoint is stupid however.

wrong. as wrong as the people saying that Ulq won the fight against Ichigo because he caused him to revert back to normal.


anyways, Shirosaki.
you could make a thread for Shirosaki vs Anybody and i'd probably still vote Shirosaki 9 times out of 10.

Aizen and Yama might be able to beat him. that's about it, as i see it.

and to those saying Ichigo and Shirosaki are one and the same, no they're not. Shirosaki and Zangetsu are one and the same.

Random101
August 02, 2009, 11:11 PM
Uh, until it's proven that she could escape on her own, with the current evidence we have, arguable as it is with lack of anything definite either way, that's pretty much an accurate statement. The one who is left incapable of fighting without aid from another party effectively loses the battle, and unless further evidence proves contrary, the most likely conclusion that could be made from what was shown is that she couldn't escape until Wonderwiess's scream most likely broke her out.

You can argue that conclusion of course, mostly based on technicalities and assumptions, but to outright call it wrong would require evidence that hasn't been revealed in the manga as of yet.

ryanzokuken
August 03, 2009, 01:11 AM
Uh, until it's proven that she could escape on her own, with the current evidence we have, arguable as it is with lack of anything definite either way, that's pretty much an accurate statement. The one who is left incapable of fighting without aid from another party effectively loses the battle, and unless further evidence proves contrary, the most likely conclusion that could be made from what was shown is that she couldn't escape until Wonderwiess's scream most likely broke her out.

You can argue that conclusion of course, mostly based on technicalities and assumptions, but to outright call it wrong would require evidence that hasn't been revealed in the manga as of yet.

neither Halibel nor Hitsugaya is dead or even seriously injured, and the fight is still going on.
therefore, there has yet to be any defeat or a victor.
there's no comparing opinions about it. that's just how it is.

there are really no ifs, ands, or buts about it. except those that come from a biased point of view.

Random101
August 03, 2009, 01:23 AM
You don't have to kill the other opponent to win. You just have to remove their capability to fight further, which was in essence what happened, provided something revealed later doesn't change anything. Hence why people can claim victories over sealed or otherwise completely immobilized opponents. Granted it's a bit more unconventional (And always does leave the possibility of them escaping later for plot purposes), but it fits the criteria. There are no if ands or buts about that, because if that's your criteria for a victor, than very few characters in this series have actually won any fights.

Their fight effectively ended when she got trapped, and the only reason she got out was due to outside help. Unless she actually had the capability to escape herself, which if she didn't within that rather large time frame appears unlikely (Though not completely impossible, though again unless new information is revealed in later chapters it can't be easily argued), he has effectively proven to have the capability to defeat her in a one on one fight (And thus theoretically more capability than Ichigo's mask form who lost to Ulqulorra's first stage, which wasn't all that strong in itself (Just had that black cero, which apparently any released espada can do), though who can beat who doesn't necessarily mean anything). Plot just got in the way. Unless something new comes up later, you can't claim it's outright wrong with the information we currently have leaning more in the opposite direction.

Starzen
August 03, 2009, 02:35 AM
so you are saying that harribel has nothing left to show us and that she gave it her all in that fight.

Random101
August 03, 2009, 02:50 AM
No, it's obvious that there's more otherwise plot wouldn't have demanded that she escape. After all, just because Ikkaku had a bankai doesn't somehow mean Ichigo beating him magically doesn't count, plot just struck then to power him up. Shocking as it is, it IS entirely possible for a person to be defeated before they can use their trump card, or show all their powers, rare as it may be in shonen. Hell, we've even had a few arrancar before that were defeated and outright killed BEFORE they could show their releases, though granted those were mooks.

drakend
August 03, 2009, 05:35 AM
and to those saying Ichigo and Shirosaki are one and the same, no they're not. Shirosaki and Zangetsu are one and the same.
Ichigo is a like the the Trinity: there are three entities, yet it's only one. Ichigo's soul is human, shinigami and hollow at the same time: Ichigo is just the avatar of the human part of his soul, while zangetsu is the avatar of the shinigami side and shirosaki the one of his hollow powers.

Mifune_Taichou
August 03, 2009, 07:16 AM
You don't have to kill the other opponent to win. You just have to remove their capability to fight further, which was in essence what happened, provided something revealed later doesn't change anything. Hence why people can claim victories over sealed or otherwise completely immobilized opponents. Granted it's a bit more unconventional (And always does leave the possibility of them escaping later for plot purposes), but it fits the criteria. There are no if ands or buts about that, because if that's your criteria for a victor, than very few characters in this series have actually won any fights.

Their fight effectively ended when she got trapped, and the only reason she got out was due to outside help. Unless she actually had the capability to escape herself, which if she didn't within that rather large time frame appears unlikely (Though not completely impossible, though again unless new information is revealed in later chapters it can't be easily argued), he has effectively proven to have the capability to defeat her in a one on one fight (And thus theoretically more capability than Ichigo's mask form who lost to Ulqulorra's first stage, which wasn't all that strong in itself (Just had that black cero, which apparently any released espada can do), though who can beat who doesn't necessarily mean anything). Plot just got in the way. Unless something new comes up later, you can't claim it's outright wrong with the information we currently have leaning more in the opposite direction.


precisely, personally I see this as two fights-Hallibell vs Hitsugaya which until, as you said we get more info, Hitsugaya won on the small but significanttechnicality that he rendered his opponent incapable of fighting. The second fight is now-Hallibell vs those 3 which obviously Hallibell will lose again.

@starzen-Its perfectly possible she has another technique to show us, however that doesnt mean she didnt lose that fight-she got trapped before she could use it so whether she has it doesnt suddenly make her not lose. Just like Ikkaku had bankai when he fough Ichigo and Pow and lost both times without using it, that doesnt make his loss any less real. You can specultae of course that he would have won both fights, but we cant know because he didnt, just like she didnt. Naturally, more information could be releases which could effectively say that Hallibell was just chilling in there and is much much more powerful but we havent had anything like that yet so I'm sorry but ryanzozouken, there are plenty of ifs and buts.

Personally I'm finding it strange i'm arguing with you since I think Shirosaki>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Hitsugaya. The reason for that is because Ichigo has the potential to be much better than Hitsugaya but isnt using it right, unlike shirosaki who uses all the power at his disposal in the best way. One way or another, Ichigo, in bankai, with his mask on got completely destroyed by Ulquiorra's first release, which IS weaker than Hallibell as Aizen has definately seen that one. At the same time, An espada who is stronger than Ulquiorra's first release is yet to land a hit on Hitsugaya. What that shows us is that whether its due to power, experience or sheer plothole/kai Hitsugaya>Ichigo right now. However when Shirosaki came out he completely destroyed Ulquiorra's second form which is arguably much stronger than Hallibell so in my eyes as I said:

Shirosaki>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Hitsugaya and Ichigo.

drakend
August 03, 2009, 08:45 AM
Mifune what you say is right as of now, but I think it's important to point out one thing: Ichigo is so much inferior to Shirosaki because he lacks the istinct to kill and the lust for battle, which is essential to use hollow powers. I have a theory about why Ichigo's shinigami powers got downgraded somehow since SS arc: not harnessing the full extent of his hollow powers damage even the harnessing of his full shinigami powers? Why? Because they're the same thing really, because Ichigo is not a shinigami nor a hollow, but we differentiate them for our convenience of speaking.
It's somewhat like when you put too much load only on certain parts of a machine, while the others are relatively unused: at the beginning the performance of the machine is good, but after a while it starts getting lower and lowers, affecting even the unused parts. I think what I called "Ichigonator" is Ichigo driven by his istincts, able to harness his full power in a balanced way. Ichigonator is already within Ichigo's grasp, he only has to use much more istinct than he's doing now: as suggested his inner Kenpachi he doesn't need to use the istinct to kill, even the istinct to protect is fine. Too much fine, seeing what happened in his fight against Ulquiorra! :D

Mifune_Taichou
August 03, 2009, 09:34 AM
Mifune what you say is right as of now, but I think it's important to point out one thing: Ichigo is so much inferior to Shirosaki because he lacks the istinct to kill and the lust for battle, which is essential to use hollow powers. I have a theory about why Ichigo's shinigami powers got downgraded somehow since SS arc: not harnessing the full extent of his hollow powers damage even the harnessing of his full shinigami powers? Why? Because they're the same thing really, because Ichigo is not a shinigami nor a hollow, but we differentiate them for our convenience of speaking.
It's somewhat like when you put too much load only on certain parts of a machine, while the others are relatively unused: at the beginning the performance of the machine is good, but after a while it starts getting lower and lowers, affecting even the unused parts. I think what I called "Ichigonator" is Ichigo driven by his istincts, able to harness his full power in a balanced way. Ichigonator is already within Ichigo's grasp, he only has to use much more istinct than he's doing now: as suggested his inner Kenpachi he doesn't need to use the istinct to kill, even the istinct to protect is fine. Too much fine, seeing what happened in his fight against Ulquiorra! :D

I think you are probably exactly right. I'm sure Ichigo can be this awesome its just as you said he doesnt have the proper insticnt to use his powers 100%. if he did, then that would probably be ichigonator and if he can summon that at will then i'd imagine he would easily be at least 2nd strongest after Yamamoto. Id love to see ichigonator vs Starrk.

xXAshisogiJizoXx
August 03, 2009, 10:58 AM
yeah, people can be beaten before they use their most powerful ability, but when we ask who would win a fight in these threads, arent we asking who is stronger, and if so, wouldnt it be more practical to compare the full potential of their capabilities, and not assume they get beaten before using their trump? ikkaku vs pow is a great example. ikkaku did lose, unquestionably, but if there was an ikkaku vs pow thread (maybe there is idk :s), i would assume they are fighting at full power and assume ikkaku would use his bankai and thus be able to beat pow, IMO. So yeah, harribel did "lose" to hitsu for that battle, but that doesnt mean he is more powerful yet (and in my opinion not even close) but im pretty sure she could have gotten out over time, and if hitsu tried to smash it, that would just release her from her prison.

Random101
August 03, 2009, 03:04 PM
Theoretically yes, we should ask who is stronger, but in this particular case the important thing is not that, but instead that Hitsugaya has a move capable of defeating (Unless again, something new is revealed later) the third espada once it connects, which means theoretically it should defeat anyone weaker than her provided it hits. While this doesn't remotely say Hitsugaya is > Shirosaki (Though again, we need to define just what Shirosaki we mean first, as I'm severely inclined to say that Ichinator is not Shirosaki in the slightest (Though obviously his powers)), the circumstances around such a fight become a tad more questionable when we take that particular move into account. Hell, the fact that it managed to get shocked looks from both Starrk and Harribel, both of whom are laid back and emotionless in general (respectively), says a lot in itself.

Besides, I was less arguing that case and more saying we can't outright discount that as a victory unless more information is revealed.

drakend
August 03, 2009, 04:18 PM
While this doesn't remotely say Hitsugaya is > Shirosaki (Though again, we need to define just what Shirosaki we mean first, as I'm severely inclined to say that Ichinator is not Shirosaki in the slightest (Though obviously his powers)), the circumstances around such a fight become a tad more questionable when we take that particular move into account. Hell, the fact that it managed to get shocked looks from both Starrk and Harribel, both of whom are laid back and emotionless in general (respectively), says a lot in itself.
I think Ichigo's hollow different lookings reflect Ichigo's internal spiritual balance. This is just like the transformation from Zangetsu to Shirosaki: they're the same thing, just with a different spiritual balance.
Ichigonator can be considered as a much more balanced version of Ichigo's spiritual powers... and it isn't the ultimate one, most likely.
If what I think is true then this is where Ichigo greatly differes from vaizards: they have their hollow and it stays the same, well separated from the shinigami counter parts. Ichigo's hollow doesn't exist: it exists an hybrid human, shinigami and hollow soul, which is all the things at the same time. It keeps evolving becoming more and more balanced, thus changing its internal and external appearance. The key to control all this soul power is istinct.



Besides, I was less arguing that case and more saying we can't outright discount that as a victory unless more information is revealed.
I think bankai Ichigo and Hitsugaya would tie, but with the standard hollow mask Ichigo would gain the upper hand, even if it wouldn't be a royal ownage imho.
If we talk about Ichigonator well... it isn't even a fight: it would be a massacre! :D
Ichigonator treated like a kiddo Ulquiorra secunda etapa, who is far stronger than Halibel imho, while Hitsugaya didn't even manage to kill Halibel with his strongest move. This point is object of debate, because some say Halibel was freed by Wonderweiss' scream: well it may be, but there is no evidence in supporting this theory or not. It may just have been a war scream, which said to all espada to hurry up and put a close to their own fights. A thing is sure: Halibel doesn't look injuried or worn out in the slightest, so I don't think those ice roses had this big of an impact.
Last chapter Hitsugaya made a fool out of himself saying "I want to fight Aizen!"... loooool
If this happens I hope Aizen will chop him in half for good... :D

Random101
August 03, 2009, 04:34 PM
Actually there is. It started cracking from the very edge and splintered inwards towards the core. Normal logic states that if Harribel did it, it would be reversed (or at the very least the first cracks would be inside the massive thing as opposed to the outright edge, as I can't fathom how it would start cracking from the edge itself if she did it). Not enough to say for sure of course because manga, particularly shonen, have been known to screw over logic but there's still more evidence leaning that way than in the other direction.

Also people don't seem to grasp the concept of freezing to death and how little that appears outwardly (Though I will say it does indeed appear that she took no damage, just the problem is that the logic behind it states that the longer that she'll be in there, the more damage taken). Example being Luppi, who didn't look all that injured, yet Aizen outright stated he'd been owned, despite not being in there for long.

While I do agree Masked Ichigo would logically get the edge there, and Bankai Ichigo is close (Though I'd say weaker by a smidgen honestly, because frankly his Bankai has not only slowed down lately, but proven obsolete whereas other bankai's haven't, which is REALLY sad since he hasn't been able to use it to win a single fight as of yet), and of course Ichinator just pwns, the problem is that still doesn't define what we mean by Shirosaki. Because if it's the Shirosaki in Ichigo's soul that only could preform Bankai (With a skill significantly greater than Ichigo could pull) at max, the matchup is a lot closer (Although I still give the edge to Shirosaki, as it's blatantly obvious that he's the superior fighter).

Because really, the one with the most consciousness within Ichinator was pretty obviously Ichigo, so calling that as Shirosaki seems wrong to be honest. The parameters of this matchup need to be more defined for an outright verdict given the nature of Shirosaki being largely undefined itself.

Boagrious
August 03, 2009, 09:45 PM
Ichigonator will be back and kick some ass! Obviously Shirosaki owns

Mifune_Taichou
August 04, 2009, 08:27 AM
Actually there is. It started cracking from the very edge and splintered inwards towards the core. Normal logic states that if Harribel did it, it would be reversed (or at the very least the first cracks would be inside the massive thing as opposed to the outright edge, as I can't fathom how it would start cracking from the edge itself if she did it). Not enough to say for sure of course because manga, particularly shonen, have been known to screw over logic but there's still more evidence leaning that way than in the other direction.

Also people don't seem to grasp the concept of freezing to death and how little that appears outwardly (Though I will say it does indeed appear that she took no damage, just the problem is that the logic behind it states that the longer that she'll be in there, the more damage taken). Example being Luppi, who didn't look all that injured, yet Aizen outright stated he'd been owned, despite not being in there for long.

While I do agree Masked Ichigo would logically get the edge there, and Bankai Ichigo is close (Though I'd say weaker by a smidgen honestly, because frankly his Bankai has not only slowed down lately, but proven obsolete whereas other bankai's haven't, which is REALLY sad since he hasn't been able to use it to win a single fight as of yet), and of course Ichinator just pwns, the problem is that still doesn't define what we mean by Shirosaki. Because if it's the Shirosaki in Ichigo's soul that only could preform Bankai (With a skill significantly greater than Ichigo could pull) at max, the matchup is a lot closer (Although I still give the edge to Shirosaki, as it's blatantly obvious that he's the superior fighter).

Because really, the one with the most consciousness within Ichinator was pretty obviously Ichigo, so calling that as Shirosaki seems wrong to be honest. The parameters of this matchup need to be more defined for an outright verdict given the nature of Shirosaki being largely undefined itself.

i agree with that except the bit where Masked ichigo>Hitsugaya because Masked Ichigo was destoryed by Ulquiorra's first form and tbh Ulqui didnt even look like he was trying-it was something in the say of stepping on an insect. Kind of like what Ichogonator did to him later.
Hitsugaya on the other hand was at least on par with Hallibell and as you pointed out there is more evidence to say he'd trapped her than not.

I think masked Ichigo has the potential to be better but he ISNT right now on this evidence. On the other hand i'd say even the shirosaki in Ichigo's mind, BANKAI only and no hollow powers would still beat Hitsugaya and even Ulqui's first form as well.

weaksauce
August 04, 2009, 10:02 AM
Laughable. Hitsugaya solo's with his coolness.

His alarmingly threatening reiatsu irradiating from his icy-cool aura would put shirosaki to his knees in an instant.

Wouldn't even be fair.

Random101
August 04, 2009, 04:05 PM
i agree with that except the bit where Masked ichigo>Hitsugaya because Masked Ichigo was destoryed by Ulquiorra's first form and tbh Ulqui didnt even look like he was trying-it was something in the say of stepping on an insect. Kind of like what Ichogonator did to him later.
Hitsugaya on the other hand was at least on par with Hallibell and as you pointed out there is more evidence to say he'd trapped her than not.

I think masked Ichigo has the potential to be better but he ISNT right now on this evidence. On the other hand i'd say even the shirosaki in Ichigo's mind, BANKAI only and no hollow powers would still beat Hitsugaya and even Ulqui's first form as well.
While you indeed have a point (And frankly Ulquilorra's first form was completely unimpressive, using a move that he outright stated all released espada can do yet haven't (Similar to Grand Rey) to defeat him), I say that on the principle that what little remains of Ichigo's speed ever since his Bankai got nerfed, in addition to the boosted power of his Getsuuga would make things very difficult for him. Unlike with Harribel, Hitsugaya can't easily repel or block such moves, and when you have crap like that getting fired from a speedy opponent from all kinds of directions things are bound to be difficult for you.

Hence I'd have to say an edge would likely go to masked Ichigo in that particular case. By edge of course I mean the odds would be somewhere along the lines of 70-30 to 60-40, given even with that he could still put up a fight (And Hitsugaya is actually capable of dodging attacks, shocker there), it's just Ichigo's moveset, limited as it is, would prove difficult with his own.

I'd say just bankai too given the only boost from the mask appears to be potency of the Getsuuga, but frankly not only is his Getsuuga so weak in that state it can literally be cut through with a hand for crying out loud, and can barely scratch an opponent's Hierro (Let alone the actual blade itself), but his speed has been nerfed to the point where it's practically nonexistent.

Hence why if we're talking the Shirosaki in Ichigo's soul, I'd have to say given how completely superior he is, he'd have an edge there too, for the simple reason that his Getsuuga is so much more potent than Ichigo's.

Mifune_Taichou
August 04, 2009, 06:34 PM
I tottaly agree there (The shirosaki comments). Given how badly he destroyed ichigo in the mind world, if shirosaki suddenly took over i would imagine he would be able to beat most people in bleach just with bankai by using it to its max. I think he'd need the mask and hollow powers only for peoplr like Starrk, Aizen, WW ,Urahara, shunsui or Yama