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c0nflikt
June 08, 2009, 12:17 AM
Well i was reading from 540 on again when i got to 544 i read what crocodile said again, and it hit me with this information it reveals a lot about the one piece world, So long the lines of awakened zoans we pretty much know of four

Bepo (Polar bear) and the Four guardian beasts.(minotaur, koala, zebra and rhino.)

So who else is the series do you think is an awakened zoan?

Ty for correction goji.

mugen
June 08, 2009, 12:21 AM
i am pretty sure Lucci is. Lucci is just awesome!!! i mean dude utilizes his df to the fullest!!

c0nflikt
June 08, 2009, 01:03 AM
awakened zoans are always in the humanoid animal form, look at the guardian beasts and bepo, lucci transforms back and forth.

mugen
June 08, 2009, 01:50 AM
umm where does it say thats what an awakened zoan is?

c0nflikt
June 08, 2009, 03:55 AM
Crocodile talks about awakened zoans (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/544/11/)

the guardian beasts don't change form as far as we know, before crocodile mentions they are awakened zoans we didn't know what they were. I'm sure many assumed they were trained animals or some freakish experiments.

Goji
June 08, 2009, 04:52 AM
So long the lines of awakened zoans we pretty much know of four

Bepo and the three guardian beasts.
You mean five, 'cause there are four guardian beasts: minotaur, koala, zebra and rhino.


i am pretty sure Lucci is. Lucci is just awesome!!! i mean dude utilizes his df to the fullest!!
I agree that he uses his df to the fullest. But we can't say for sure he's an awakened zoan or not. Because we just don't know what the term "awakened zoan" means exactly. ^^


awakened zoans are always in the humanoid animal form, look at the guardian beasts and bepo, lucci transforms back and forth.
Well actually we don't know if they're always in that humanoid animal form... Yes, it's true we've only seen them in that form, but that doesn't mean they don't have other forms. It's very much possible that they can also use other forms.
Due to lack of information we're stuck with speculation. Which is fine by me btw. :p

Wouldn't it be cool if chopper became an awakened zoan, and when he becomes one he can use all his "point"-forms without having to use a rumble ball. Maybe if you're an awakened zoan user you can use every form possible for your specific fruit. So it could be he'll even be able to enter monster-point without much trouble. :eyeroll

Benjamin Kaito
June 08, 2009, 06:08 AM
I think Chopper is already a awakened zoan, being Monster Point is ultimate form. However, he isn't able to control himself yet..

Sachsenhesse
June 08, 2009, 06:26 AM
Monster Point is way to strong to be an awakened zoan. Also Sentomaru didnt know that a Monster Point could be possible, according to his status as bodyguard for vegapunk i think he should know awakened zoans.

Bepo as an awakened zoan seems... not right. I mean those beasts dont have any feelings and intelligence, Bepo has both.

Right know we only know those 4 awakened zoans.

Raysen_ht
June 08, 2009, 11:35 AM
I think that the term awakened zoan refers to fruit users who lost control to the respective animal of their fruit. They gain extra power/recovery, but they loose all reason and become beasts.
I dont think its an advantage...

Roarchu
June 08, 2009, 11:41 AM
i thought they were fruit users who got messed up by vegapunk

who knows

Razh
June 08, 2009, 11:48 AM
I think that the term awakened zoan refers to fruit users who lost control to the respective animal of their fruit. They gain extra power/recovery, but they loose all reason and become beasts.
I dont think its an advantage...

That's more or less exactly what I wrote a week ago in chapter discussion.

It could be a certain risk that befalls all of the zoan users. If they use it too much they could be taken over by animal instincts, more and more, until they almost lose their humanity. They retain some memories, but since they are more animals than humans now, they can't really remember everything. Those that we've seen know how to use weapons, use violence to solve problems, and play cards. Who knows how successfully. Of course, maybe they are more intelligent than they seem, but can't use that in their forms. We've seen typical animal traits on some of them. Like koala eating leaves.

At least I think so. If you can remember, Lucci had quite a lust for blood. It could have been his devil fruit influence.
I mean, it makes sense that when you become an animal, you're going to change somewhat. If you start relying on your animal side too much, you may not be able to come back.

And there's nothing to indicate that Vegapunk had anything to do with their condition, but I wouldn't dismiss it.
Although, I would hate if Vegapunk had his fingers in everything.

Goji
June 08, 2009, 12:50 PM
I think that the term awakened zoan refers to fruit users who lost control to the respective animal of their fruit. They gain extra power/recovery, but they loose all reason and become beasts.
I dont think its an advantage...
That's a very interesting idea. Could be possible. ^^


It could be a certain risk that befalls all of the zoan users. If they use it too much they could be taken over by animal instincts, more and more, until they almost lose their humanity. They retain some memories, but since they are more animals than humans now, they can't really remember everything. Those that we've seen know how to use weapons, use violence to solve problems, and play cards. Who knows how successfully. Of course, maybe they are more intelligent than they seem, but can't use that in their forms. We've seen typical animal traits on some of them. Like koala eating leaves.

At least I think so. If you can remember, Lucci had quite a lust for blood. It could have been his devil fruit influence.
I mean, it makes sense that when you become an animal, you're going to change somewhat. If you start relying on your animal side too much, you may not be able to come back.
If this theory is true, I wonder what Chopper would look like should he become an awakened zoan. I mean, he ate the hito hito no mi (human human fruit), so.... will he look even more human than what he looks like now in heavy point? :eyeroll

I'm curious what he would look like. But it looks like his DF has already taken over quite a bit. I mean, we don't get to see the "reindeer" side of him very much now do we? :p

Lord Rayleigh
June 08, 2009, 12:57 PM
i am pretty sure Lucci is. Lucci is just awesome!!! i mean dude utilizes his df to the fullest!!
Lucci is definitely not an awakened zoan. Lucci has very important differences with the awakened zoans. Read the following quote of myself.


I think that the term awakened zoan refers to fruit users who lost control to the respective animal of their fruit. They gain extra power/recovery, but they loose all reason and become beasts.
I dont think its an advantage...
I disagree with that idea they become totally beasts because they have some humans abilities, that a normal animal could not do and that a zoan user turned into his animal form could neither do. Just read the following quote of myself.
Nevertheless, I agree they should have lost their reason.



About the awakened zoans, if we suppose they are humans, we can say they are in the DF animal form, behaves like animal but fight/stand up like a human would do. What I mean is that in a DF animal form, the DF user walks, run like the animal would normally does : you can see that when Lucci turns into a panther to bite Luffy. He run on his four paws and could only do what a normal panther is able to do.
But with the awakened zoan, they are in the animal form and able to stand up in their animal forms, hold weapons, what Lucci for example could not do in an animal for. For that, he has to turn into the hybrid form, half-human, half-panther.

c0nflikt
June 08, 2009, 02:29 PM
I think awakened zoans are forever in their 2 legged animal form, i think bepo is so strong he mastered this and is now forever polar bear, i think the guardian beasts are zoans who were tinkered with by vegapunk and thats possibly why they don't talk.

A further experimentation towards Zoans i think is dr hogbacks attempt on that cheetah fellow i can't remember his name but i think that is what he was going for.

Lord Rayleigh
June 08, 2009, 02:37 PM
i think the guardian beasts are zoans who were tinkered with by vegapunk and thats possibly why they don't talk.
Normally you could not tinkered a DF. The only special cases done by Dr Vegapunk and that were shown were the zoans eaten by objects : Lasso, the dog or Mr 4 and Frankfood, the sword of Spandam. But as you see, for the DF power to be activated, the DF must have been eaten. I do not know how Dr Vegapunk would have managed to avoid this supreme rule among the DFs.

nota bene : the case with the PXs able to throw beams is different : this not a DF power tinkered. Dr Vegapunk only understood how the Pika Pika Fruit allows Ki Zaru to do beams and managed to find a way to allow the PX to do beams too but with their own technology.

c0nflikt
June 08, 2009, 03:34 PM
Normally you could not tinkered a DF. The only special cases done by Dr Vegapunk and that were shown were the zoans eaten by objects : Lasso, the dog or Mr 4 and Frankfood, the sword of Spandam. But as you see, for the DF power to be activated, the DF must have been eaten. I do not know how Dr Vegapunk would have managed to avoid this supreme rule among the DFs.

nota bene : the case with the PXs able to throw beams is different : this not a DF power tinkered. Dr Vegapunk only understood how the Pika Pika Fruit allows Ki Zaru to do beams and managed to find a way to allow the PX to do beams too but with their own technology.


We truly don't know how or what vegapunk can do to DF, the marines have alot of advanced technology and techniques the pirates don't, and i think most if not all of it comes from vegapunk. He most likely hears how a pirate or someone uses or has harnessed a power and trys to replicate it.

Lord Rayleigh
June 08, 2009, 03:44 PM
We truly don't know how or what vegapunk can do to DF, the marines have alot of advanced technology and techniques the pirates don't, and i think most if not all of it comes from vegapunk. He most likely hears how a pirate or someone uses or has harnessed a power and trys to replicate it.
Of course every special things concerning the DFs comes from Dr Vegapunk. That was Dr Vegapunk that allows two objects (finally named Lasso and Frankfood after they ate their respective zoan DF) to eat a DF and that was Dr Vegapunk that found a way to replicate beams similar to Ki Zaru's with technology. That is what I said in the last post :s

nota bene : it seems that an object can only eat zoan DF as there is a beast spirit or something like that in the zoan DF that allows the object to " live ". That beast spirit could be the one that might control the awakened zoans.

c0nflikt
June 08, 2009, 04:05 PM
Another purpose of this thread was for anyone to point out characters who they think were awakened zoans also, pandaman lol.

but i'm looking forward to seeing more of these characters but seeing as how DF's are already rare this will be even rarer i assume.

Splat
June 08, 2009, 05:38 PM
I think it's possible that choppers monster point turns him into an awakened zoan type. The demon guards might have been permanently locked into their awakened forms, or possibly just don't release them because of how powerful it makes them. If you look here http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/512/17/ what robin says in the top middle panel suggests to me that she knows something about choppers form, which is why i think it is awakened zoan form.

BetaRuler
June 08, 2009, 06:53 PM
I always thought Bepo was a bear's head put on a human body by Law...

As for awakened... The dormant power inside Zoan's, that can be unlocked, it looks to me that it gives them a mutated form of their animal, and enhances them greatly.
An increased metabolism maybe? I mean they get superior speed, healing, size, and strength, maybe even superior senses like sight, hearing and smell. Summing the results up reminds me of the same effects the assassins from the "eye of michael" from Trigun maximum would get.

But for those new to attempting to use this awakened form it seems tiring, or at least to Chopper, if that is his awakened form, also, it might be a form he should be trying to reach without the use of those pills to force it open, I get this feeling that he should try to learn to use his fruit without relying the rumble balls, because I don't see any other Zoan users relying on them and their pretty in tune with their zoans, or Chopper might learn to make a new type of ball that'll work better with the help of the tribal medicines where he currently is...

c0nflikt
June 08, 2009, 07:09 PM
I always thought Bepo was a bear's head put on a human body by Law...

As for awakened... The dormant power inside Zoan's, that can be unlocked, it looks to me that it gives them a mutated form of their animal, and enhances them greatly.
An increased metabolism maybe? I mean they get superior speed, healing, size, and strength, maybe even superior senses like sight, hearing and smell. Summing the results up reminds me of the same effects the assassins from the "eye of michael" from Trigun maximum would get.

But for those new to attempting to use this awakened form it seems tiring, or at least to Chopper, if that is his awakened form, also, it might be a form he should be trying to reach without the use of those pills to force it open, I get this feeling that he should try to learn to use his fruit without relying the rumble balls, because I don't see any other Zoan users relying on them and their pretty in tune with their zoans, or Chopper might learn to make a new type of ball that'll work better with the help of the tribal medicines where he currently is...

Your theory about bepo is interesting but don't you think if that was true they wouldn't hide what was under his jump suit?

And about the guardian beasts i believe they were experimented upon untill they achieved the form but they are stuck in it, and this could possibly foreshadow choppers obtaining the same form, what crocodile says about the form leads me to believe that chopper monster point is that form also.

Razh
June 09, 2009, 05:20 AM
I think it's possible that choppers monster point turns him into an awakened zoan type. The demon guards might have been permanently locked into their awakened forms, or possibly just don't release them because of how powerful it makes them. If you look here http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/512/17/ what robin says in the top middle panel suggests to me that she knows something about choppers form, which is why i think it is awakened zoan form.

Chopper's monter point doesn't have anything to do with awakened zoans. If he were an awakened zoan, he would look more like human than like an animal.

Robin's statement implies that somebody told her about how Chopper transformed on Enies Lobby. Maybe Franky, maybe somebody else.
She probably wanted to say that she heard about it, but she never actually saw it, or could have imagined the size of it.

toxun
June 09, 2009, 07:59 AM
It possible Vegapunk manage to invent a method to modify DF gen far beyond Chopper did with his own body, just like he created Kuma & it's borgs far advanced beyond Franky. By the way, was it had something to do with their drizzling nose :D

Akainu
June 09, 2009, 09:29 AM
Well monster point and the awakend forms do have something in common:
the way their fingers/hands look like!

Chopper though can only hold this state for ... 30 minutes was it? The awakend zoans on the other hand seem to constantly stay in their form not changing the slightest! I mean that brings a huge conclusion imo.
Chopper has to force himself/his DF to get into that state with Rumbleballs. Forcing leads to a short, uncontrolled time that maybe also is many times bigger than it would normally be.
I don't know how these guards came to be awakend zoans though and whether or not it's technically possible for them to change back - if there is no way to do so it's not suitable for a Chopper powerup.

The point of Choppers fruit being the hito hito no mi was already raised too.
I also think that the result should be more humanlike, but maybe there is something else to it. 3 possibilities I have in mind currently: * Oda wants to show the 'real human nature' which is pretty violent, * what I wrote above that it is all the energy used at once, * a conflict between the 'human' DF spirit and the 'beast' he actually is which results in this mess and potentially could be solved where he is now and thus my favorite atm.

I'm awfully sorry that it got so Chopper-centric :-x but it may be a good hint as to what those awakend forms are.

c0nflikt
June 09, 2009, 10:29 AM
@ Akainu This is kinda off topic but throughout the series i think Oda has be hinting at the power ups the straw hats are going to get, now with the awakened zoans, Rayleigh for zoro, franky with the pacifistas (Not him turning into one, but his own similar creation or advancement), and sanji with the okama's (ITs glaringly obvious hes going to learn okama kenpo or something better).

And although choppers not around atm i think this recent bit about awakened zoans is pointing to the potential chopper can harness monster point and its not just some dangerous uncontrollable ability.


So does anyone think there have been other awakened zoans in the series but we didn't know they were DF users at the time?

and do you think bepo is truly an awakened zoan. (i do)

Finale
June 09, 2009, 12:16 PM
Chopper's monster point attacks friend and foe. The Demon Beast guards are obviously aware of whom to attack. If Chopper learns how to harness monster point it would be a great asset to the SHs. It's also possible that Chopper's awakened form will be very powerful yet not as strong as Monster Point. Look at the Demon Guards that got manhandled by Luffy and company. Do you think they could one-hit KO monster point Chopper?

zerocooldx
June 09, 2009, 12:52 PM
It possible Vegapunk manage to invent a method to modify DF gen far beyond Chopper did with his own body, just like he created Kuma & it's borgs far advanced beyond Franky. By the way, was it had something to do with their drizzling nose :D

Well seeing as Kuma is a Devil Fruit using Cyborg, who was modified by Vegapunk i think its safe to say that Vegapunk can modify Devil Fruits at least to a certain degree.

ANBU4U
June 09, 2009, 12:58 PM
Chopper's monster point attacks friend and foe. The Demon Beast guards are obviously aware of whom to attack. If Chopper learns how to harness monster point it would be a great asset to the SHs. It's also possible that Chopper's awakened form will be very powerful yet not as strong as Monster Point. Look at the Demon Guards that got manhandled by Luffy and company. Do you think they could one-hit KO monster point Chopper?

I actually DO think Luffy, Iva, Crocodile, and Jimbei could combo-one hit Monster Point Chopper. I dont think hed stay down any longer than the Demon guards though...maybe less, because monster point seems to be an even more unstable form (ie draining of life energy) but still I think those four could put him away pretty easily.

Even Sentomaru seemed more annoyed my Chopper than worried.
[hr]

Well seeing as Kuma is a Devil Fruit using Cyborg, who was modified by Vegapunk i think its safe to say that Vegapunk can modify Devil Fruits at least to a certain degree.

Why?

Weve seen him manipulate the human body, replicate DF abilities, and transfer their abilities to inanimate objects.....all manipulations of how where DF's work, not HOW.

the only being thats ever manipulated how a DF works is Chopper, and the more we learn about the DF the less impressive that achievement is, as its seeems that to a large degree Zoans already possessed the ability to vary the state of their transformations with enough training.

zerocooldx
June 09, 2009, 01:14 PM
I actually DO think Luffy, Iva, Crocodile, and Jimbei could combo-one hit Monster Point Chopper. I dont think hed stay down any longer than the Demon guards though...maybe less, because monster point seems to be an even more unstable form (ie draining of life energy) but still I think those four could put him away pretty easily.

Even Sentomaru seemed more annoyed my Chopper than worried.
<hr noshade size="1">


Why?

Weve seen him manipulate the human body, replicate DF abilities, and transfer their abilities to inanimate objects.....all manipulations of how where DF's work, not HOW.

the only being thats ever manipulated how a DF works is Chopper, and the more we learn about the DF the less impressive that achievement is, as its seeems that to a large degree Zoans already possessed the ability to vary the state of their transformations with enough training.

Well i'm basing that off of the simple fact that Vegapunk is most likely one of the most brilliant minds in the world of One Piece. And Chopper is a Kid doctor, talented but he still learning and has a ways to go. So if Chopper, a doctor, can "manipulate" a Devil Fruit i'm willing to bet that Vegapunk, a scientist can as well. Especially if he is capable of allowing a Cyborg to have full use of a Devil Fruit as well as replicate other Devil Fruit powers.

Lord Rayleigh
June 09, 2009, 01:22 PM
Well seeing as Kuma is a Devil Fruit using Cyborg, who was modified by Vegapunk i think its safe to say that Vegapunk can modify Devil Fruits at least to a certain degree.
The cyborg is not an object, he is an human. So, it seems more possible that the cyborg ate the fruit and controls it than the fruit controls the cyborg because as a cyborg is living, he is supposed to have his own mind.
Nevertheless, the normal cyborgs (the PXs) do not seem to have a normal mind.
But there is also the problem that I do not even see why a paramecia would have a " spirit " able to control an object for example.
Indeed, I do not think a paramecia DF has got the same spirit than a zoan. From the story, it seems obvious the zoan DFs have a the spirit : that is what is controlling Lasso and Frankfood, the gun of Mr 4 and the sword of Spandam as the objects does not have a mind. I imagine that the zoan have the spirit of the power they represent (the beast), but a paramecia having the spirit of the power they represent ? I am not really sure of that because what they represent do not have normally a spirit whereas a normal beast have a spirit.
So, as it seems strange to see a paramecia controling an object, it seems stranger to see a paramecia controling a living body. But that is just based on the fact I think the zoan have the spirit of the power they represent.

Xenos3421
June 09, 2009, 04:10 PM
I just thought of something- in regards to what or who the Awakened Zoans are-

I believe that they're simply the animals that they're fruits were named after...
like Minotauros was a bull, who was feed the bull bull fruit and Koala-buddy ate the koala koala no mi and so forth and so on-

I remember and old sbs question about what would happen if a human ate chopper's human-o-mi hahaha bad pun... Anyway the answer was that the human would be "enlightened".

So, in the reverse, If a bull ate a bull fruit what could that mean?
I think that it would give them an "evolved" form; taking on a cartoonish bipedal form and features allowing them to be the best bull or whatever ever!

deffkryz
June 09, 2009, 04:19 PM
Another purpose of this thread was for anyone to point out characters who they think were awakened zoans also, pandaman lol.

but i'm looking forward to seeing more of these characters but seeing as how DF's are already rare this will be even rarer i assume.

Actually, there's no point in discussing this right now since we only know that Awakened Zoans are incredibly strong, have overwhelming stamina and recover pretty fast from a K.O. - and that there are four of them in Impel Down posting as guardians.

The time should be right once we have seen some real other AZ or Oda explains how Zoan powers work - beyond their usual transformation abilities...

But we can determine: None of the CP9 agents has had awakened zoan powers. Why? Well, they have super-human powers through rokushiki and life feed and used their DF powers simply to boost their fighting skills. Furthermore, they were all K.O.ed and did not recover that fast as the ID Guardians did. Minotauros took a Jet Bazooka, was sent flying and came back in an instant! Lucci took one of them as well and was able to resume his - but he used Tekkai to block it, a rokushiki technique.

c0nflikt
June 09, 2009, 04:28 PM
Actually, there's no point in discussing this right now since we only know that Awakened Zoans are incredibly strong, have overwhelming stamina and recover pretty fast from a K.O. - and that there are four of them in Impel Down posting as guardians.

The time should be right once we have seen some real other AZ or Oda explains how Zoan powers work - beyond their usual transformation abilities...

But we can determine: None of the CP9 agents has had awakened zoan powers. Why? Well, they have super-human powers through rokushiki and life feed and used their DF powers simply to boost their fighting skills. Furthermore, they were all K.O.ed and did not recover that fast as the ID Guardians did. Minotauros took a Jet Bazooka, was sent flying and came back in an instant! Lucci took one of them as well and was able to resume his - but he used Tekkai to block it, a rokushiki technique.

theres always the possibility that there may have been a two legged animal humanoid character someone may have spotted that we could never explain before.

deffkryz
June 09, 2009, 05:03 PM
And you really think a forum's discussion participants can theorize over this and make it canon? Most not-quite-human creatures are own species - Pandaman is an example and so will Bepo be... (I phantasize on different Hito hito no mi models so Bepo might end up being a DF user)

Come on - unless Oda doesn't give an explanation to this (and he will!) this was nothing more than mere namedropping to say that the Guards are incredibly strong... and we had a lot of this in the recent arc.

Lord Rayleigh
June 09, 2009, 05:07 PM
Actually, there's no point in discussing this right now since we only know that Awakened Zoans are incredibly strong, have overwhelming stamina and recover pretty fast from a K.O. - and that there are four of them in Impel Down posting as guardians.
What an extremist kind of epistemology ! Do you not consider that we can find thanks to things that were not directly said by the manga, but shown among the pages - I mean by the drawings - undeniable truths ? For example, with the awakened zoans, they are constantly in the animal form of the zoan but they are nevertheless able to stand up, walk, run, hold weapons, like an hybrid form or a human form will do. Normally, the animal form can only move like the animal does.
Besides, we can thanks to logic find out abductions, do you not think ?

deffkryz
June 10, 2009, 04:26 AM
What an extremist kind of epistemology ! Do you not consider that we can find thanks to things that were not directly said by the manga, but shown among the pages - I mean by the drawings - undeniable truths ? For example, with the awakened zoans, they are constantly in the animal form of the zoan but they are nevertheless able to stand up, walk, run, hold weapons, like an hybrid form or a human form will do. Normally, the animal form can only move like the animal does.
Besides, we can thanks to logic find out abductions, do you not think ?

Unless no one is able bring up one of those undeniable truths I keep my position since Oda surprised me within the last 500 chapters way to often and proved that "fan-made facts" are never certain unless you create your own world. You may call it the "anti-fake encyclopedist slow-poke syndrome" since I've read the hell lot of fakes or "myths" as One Piece Wikia calls them (anyone of the German readers know "Goob", "El Draco" or "Silver Monk"?), that in fact have their sources in forums. That's how the Dragonball AF story started...

Fact:


The term "Awakened Zoan" ... well "覚醒" (http://mangahelpers.com/downloads/read-online/31432/11) (kakusei - awaken) linked to Zoan DF powers ... is new!
It's the first time we have seen such beasts/Zoan ability users that look like those Guardians AFAIR.


Before Crocodile stated that they are Zoan users, they were called "mutants" like the manticore, weren't they?

Show me some other figure in a manga panel that has the same design characteristics and stats, and then we can see if it's an undeniable truth.

Talking about Monster Chop should be fine - he is incredibly strong, has had empty eyes, and overwhelming stamina. This may be Chopper's awakened stadium on a yet uncontrolled level - uncontrolled because it's forced through three RBs.

But asking for discussions on whether or not:


any other Zoan user (Lucci, Jyabura, Funkfried, Dalton, Kaku, Pell, Chaka, Pierre, Marigold, Sandersonia, Rassuu, Miss Merry Christmas) was awaken or -
there's some "monster" in the past chapter that might be a Zoan user in his/her awakened state.


That's nothing but pointless guessing.

Lord Rayleigh
June 10, 2009, 12:44 PM
Unless no one is able bring up one of those undeniable truths I keep my position
Did you mean " Unless one is able ? Because I never thought no one is able to bring up one of those undeniable truths.
Anyway, I think that thanks to the drawing, you can find undeniable truth or at least nearly undeniable. For example, Oda has never said that when Luffy uses Gear 2, he is always sweating that " smoke ". But we all know that it is always what happens because of the drawings.
So, as I said, we can base our reasonings on drawings and sometimes find undeniable truths with them. But do not imagine I think we can always find nearly undeniable truths, that does not work for everything.
To repeat my last example, the animal form of a classical zoan (not an awakened) can only do what a normal animal can do. That is deduction coming from my logic and the drawings. I think it is nearly undeniable too.


Fact:


The term "Awakened Zoan" ... well "覚醒" (http://mangahelpers.com/downloads/read-online/31432/11) (kakusei - awaken) linked to Zoan DF powers ... is new!
It's the first time we have seen such beasts/Zoan ability users that look like those Guardians AFAIR.


Before Crocodile stated that they are Zoan users, they were called "mutants" like the manticore, weren't they?

Show me some other figure in a manga panel that has the same design characteristics and stats, and then we can see if it's an undeniable truth.
If they have the same characteristics and stats with the same design, it will mean it is not an undeniable truth with my example about the awakened zoans. So, it is illogic that I show you that.
Anyway, you must consider the fact that it may be not possible with other cases to show you that kind of things because it may not exist. That would mean, they are unique.

nota bene : And about an undeniable truth, it is also easy to said everything is not undeniable : you just have to use relativism. That is why I used nearly before, to prevent that from relativist reactions.

Do you notice they were in animal forms, not in hybrid form or the human appearance ? I think it is undeniable.
Then, I explained the difference with the normal zoans, animals but saying some things they could do in that animal form and that the normal zoans cannot do in their animal form, and neither for the animals. I think it is undeniable too.
Besides, it is a postulate that do not work with design, as the postulate is based on properties of the awakened zoans. By definition, the awakened zoans (can) have a different physic form as they (can) have different zoans - I use " (can) " here because for the moment, we do not know if each DF is unique but anyway, this postulate works with several awakened zoans with different design -
I can give you the same animal of each awakened zoan to show you that they cannot do that. I cannot show you other animal form.



Talking about Monster Chop should be fine - he is incredibly strong, has had empty eyes, and overwhelming stamina. This may be Chopper's awakened stadium on a yet uncontrolled level - uncontrolled because it's forced through three RBs.
Your example is a guessing like the following examples are.
nota bene : each theory has the right to be said. And if they are false, they will be destroyed. Only abductions would survive, even if people are subjectively inclined to think some abductions are not possible (by definition abductions are possible solutions/" truths ".
So, abductions are useful. Besides, with the time, the number of abductions reduces because new conditions are revealed/discovered : that is based on the fact science converges on the long range to truth (that is what legitimates the logic of invention).
Anyway, we are not here to discuss if we trust or not the general heuristic (also named the logic of discovery). So, I stop myself here in that explanation of the utility of " discussion on guessings ".



But asking for discussions on whether or not:


any other Zoan user (Lucci, Jyabura, Funkfried, Dalton, Kaku, Pell, Chaka, Pierre, Marigold, Sandersonia, Rassuu, Miss Merry Christmas) was awaken or -
there's some "monster" in the past chapter that might be a Zoan user in his/her awakened state.


That's nothing but pointless guessing.
Of course, that is guessing because this is not undeniable (and I think not even here abductions). As I said not each reasoning can be undeniable.
And personally, I never thought they were awakened zoans.
I tried to find undeniable properties for the awakened zoans. Nevertheless, it would be better, that is truth, to see them as an abduction too (even if I do no think you can find other abductions here that are different from this one)
When I thought some people said wrong things about some zoans being awakened zoans, I explain how, with these properties, it must be impossible. And I said it was possible that Bepo was an awakened zoansas it was compatible with these properties.

Finale
June 10, 2009, 02:28 PM
I actually DO think Luffy, Iva, Crocodile, and Jimbei could combo-one hit Monster Point Chopper. I dont think hed stay down any longer than the Demon guards though...maybe less, because monster point seems to be an even more unstable form (ie draining of life energy) but still I think those four could put him away pretty easily.

Even Sentomaru seemed more annoyed my Chopper than worried.
<hr noshade size="1">

Luffy, Croc, and Jimbei each took one guard each. I wasn't talking about a team attack. We won't know for sure about Sentomaru for who knows how long. Until we see Monster Point actually take damage and feel it we can't be sure.

c0nflikt
June 10, 2009, 04:44 PM
All i'm saying is we have 4 examples of characteristics of Awakened zoans for sure, before now there could have been similar character that went unexplained that we could understand now. But as of now we can only speculate on Bepo and Chopper.

deffkryz
June 10, 2009, 04:45 PM
Did you mean " Unless one is able ? Because I never thought no one is able to bring up one of those undeniable truths.

No I meant "Unless someone is able..."


Anyway, I think that thanks to the drawing, you can find undeniable truth or at least nearly undeniable. For example, Oda has never said that when Luffy uses Gear 2, he is always sweating that " smoke ". But we all know that it is always what happens because of the drawings.

See? He can't sweat that much - he'd dry out... :notrust (off topic)


Do you notice they were in animal forms, not in hybrid form or the human appearance ? I think it is undeniable.

Chopper and Lucci showed us the animal form of zoan transformation. Those guardians did not - it's another state in which they released the full power of their abilities.


Your example is a guessing like the following examples are.

Hence may...


nota bene : each theory has the right to be said. And if they are false, they will be destroyed.

Wrong: Theories are false until they're proven - the ones spreading theories have to prove them, and that's how discussions work. Or at least they should.


And I said it was possible that Bepo was an awakened zoansas it was compatible with these properties.

Comparing the drawing style, Bepo is way too far away from how the guardians look like. Let's start... well, with Bepo's size.

You have seen Bruno's costume (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/343/02/) in Chapter 343? So - comparing the drawings Bepo seems to me nothing more than a guy wearing such a costume - if I was guessing... Or do you remember Gaimon's animals?

Comparing to Apoo and Pandaman, I would even guess Bepo is a polarbear-human... an own "race" such as pandamen seem to be... There's even a pandawoman on Amazon Lily...

Since we have seen many incredible living things, you don't think it's much less likely Bepo's an awakened zoan? I don't even expect him to be a DF user at all. He never shifted his shape, he never produced liquids, he never attracted or repelled things...

scarletcrimson
June 12, 2009, 07:51 AM
I dont know about the bepo thing becuase i dont what evidence in the manga points to him being awakened or a zoan user for that matter

Regarding the four demon guards that are awakened zoans, just the term seems to define zoan users that have achieved thier full abilities or lost to thier instinct in their animal fruits, thus it seems more likely that they were once people and cannot go back. But of course this is speculation and Oda hasnt revealed it to us so far

Chopper is special in that he is an animal that ate a human zoan fruit and that he uses rumble balls to achieve that monster chopper form. If monster chopper is indeed his awakened form, then it could very well mean that it takes some sort of medicinal or technical prowess to push DF users into awakened form, this of course implies Vegapunk had a hand in the four guards awakening. This would be cooler than the theory that they reached it through their own means of overuse of thier animal side. However this could mean that chopper cant go monster on his own and would have to rely on rumble balls.
Of course this could all be a moot point since chopper is unique and that we dont know specifically wat awakened means

BlindMunkey
June 14, 2009, 03:03 AM
I just thought of something- in regards to what or who the Awakened Zoans are-

I believe that they're simply the animals that they're fruits were named after...
like Minotauros was a bull, who was feed the bull bull fruit and Koala-buddy ate the koala koala no mi and so forth and so on-

I remember and old sbs question about what would happen if a human ate chopper's human-o-mi hahaha bad pun... Anyway the answer was that the human would be "enlightened".

So, in the reverse, If a bull ate a bull fruit what could that mean?
I think that it would give them an "evolved" form; taking on a cartoonish bipedal form and features allowing them to be the best bull or whatever ever!

i think thts possible. and assuming awakened zoans form is only wht animal or person original was. like chopper is reindeer. so his awaken zoans form will be based on that but not the DF fruit he ate? which is human human. tht would support his monster point.

i wonder if vegapunk have eaten some sorta DF which makes him so gifted. i would love to know the reason behind vegapunk being so damn good of a scientist.
awaken zoans definitely h as vegapunk written all over it

c0nflikt
June 16, 2009, 01:26 PM
i think thts possible. and assuming awakened zoans form is only wht animal or person original was. like chopper is reindeer. so his awaken zoans form will be based on that but not the DF fruit he ate? which is human human. tht would support his monster point.

i wonder if vegapunk have eaten some sorta DF which makes him so gifted. i would love to know the reason behind vegapunk being so damn good of a scientist.
awaken zoans definitely h as vegapunk written all over it

I think your onto something about Vegapunks DF he probably ate a variant of the human human df cause like oda said in the SBS if a human ate the human fruit he'd be enlightened.

But i think choppers monster point is an awakened cause how else would his two forms combine in awakened, comparing chopper to the guardians they have animal fur and features mixed with strong humanoid features and large form. Choppers awakened would be backwards his basic form is a reindeer so he has strong animal features mixed with strong humanoid form and a large body. Combined with his remarkable intelligence.

if this paragraph at all makes sense.

Razh
June 16, 2009, 03:27 PM
But i think choppers monster point is an awakened cause how else would his two forms combine in awakened, comparing chopper to the guardians they have animal fur and features mixed with strong humanoid features and large form. Choppers awakened would be backwards his basic form is a reindeer so he has strong animal features mixed with strong humanoid form and a large body. Combined with his remarkable intelligence.


So why is Chopper a lot bigger than them? And why doesn't he look more human?
If you think about it, his hybrid form makes more sense as an awakened zoan than Monster Point.
Awakened zoans are humans who act more like animals. So Chopper's awakened form should make him act more like human than like animal.
Oh wait, he already acts more like human than like an animal.:)

c0nflikt
June 16, 2009, 03:57 PM
So why is Chopper a lot bigger than them? And why doesn't he look more human?
If you think about it, his hybrid form makes more sense as an awakened zoan than Monster Point.
Awakened zoans are humans who act more like animals. So Chopper's awakened form should make him act more like human than like animal.
Oh wait, he already acts more like human than like an animal.:)

Theres alot of missing pieces to this puzzle like how the human fruit is different used on animals, and how that makes choppers awakened form different, I think hes bigger cause of the combination of his animal origin and human fruit.

BlindMunkey
June 17, 2009, 01:29 AM
Theres alot of missing pieces to this puzzle like how the human fruit is different used on animals, and how that makes choppers awakened form different, I think hes bigger cause of the combination of his animal origin and human fruit.

we do not know how vegapunk made it happen the awakened form but it surely is different from choppers rumble ball. so maybe that is the key point here. being the method is different making choppers awakend form different.
ofc vegapunk version of awakend form much for stable comparing to choppers. maybe in future chopper will better himself at monster point.
edit: this mini arc each character of SH pirates gonna have is bound to help each of them one way or another. so maybe it will long way helpin chopper have better self control in monster point.

Razh
June 17, 2009, 03:26 AM
we do not know how vegapunk made it happen the awakened form...

We don't even know if Vegapunk has anything to do with it at all. It would be nice if people stopped saying it as a fact.

BlindMunkey
June 17, 2009, 08:52 PM
We don't even know if Vegapunk has anything to do with it at all. It would be nice if people stopped saying it as a fact.

neither way u cant prove me wrong. so it shouldn't matter if i say or people say it as a fact. besides we just speculating here hoping being right.

ps. i do believe vegapunk had his hand in it still! [i could be wrong and i have no problem with that] until then i believe what i said up there

Lord Rayleigh
June 18, 2009, 12:38 PM
We have no proofs that it is Dr Vegapunk that had done that. That is not the fact as Razh said.

Nevertheless, as they are the awakened zoans of ID and as ID is a WG's organization, it seems really possible that he did that. It would explain why ID obtained 4 awakened zoans : because that would have be done on purpose.

Has Vegapunk been officially involved in Frankfood or Funk Freed (sword of Spandam) and Lasso (gun of Mr 4) ?

Razh
June 18, 2009, 12:46 PM
I think he only discovered a method of fusing zoans with inanimate objects. It doesn't mean that he made Lasoo for example. I don't know how Mr.4 would have gotten his hands on it then.

Speaking of zoans, if I'm right and they are zoan users who lost themselves to animal instincts than they can either be locked up in jail or used to keep other prisoners in order.

Lord Rayleigh
June 18, 2009, 01:03 PM
I don't know how Mr.4 would have gotten his hands on it then.
If it was Dr Vegapunk that created Lasso, Mr.4 should have gotten it through Crocodile as he was a Shichibukai (I do not see another possible link between Mr.4 and Dr Vegapunk).

BlindMunkey
June 18, 2009, 09:44 PM
If it was Dr Vegapunk that created Lasso, Mr.4 should have gotten it through Crocodile as he was a Shichibukai (I do not see another possible link between Mr.4 and Dr Vegapunk).

the fact that crocodile knew about the awakened zoan and had his agents using lasso is another thing i would like to keep in mind. marine or vegapunk might have just given it out for any number of reason and mostly because crocodile was shichibukai at that time. since we know it was vegapunk who discovered a way for non-living things to consume DF.. make everything inbetween irrelevant to the point how and where and when Mr.4 got lasso dog gun. i wonder if ODA will clear it up in future

Razh
June 19, 2009, 02:50 AM
Well, seeing how Mr.4 was practically useless without Lasso, I kinda doubt it that it was Crocodile who happily provided him with it.

IceBorg
June 19, 2009, 06:19 PM
I don't think Vegapunk created the awakened Zoans because of this page http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/512/16/

Its possible that Moster Chopper has something to do with the awakened Zoans but Sentoumaru was suprised when he saw Moster Chopper(like he saw a thing like that for the first time) and he is Vegapunk bodyguard so he should know about Vegapunks experiences.

Im sorry if this theory was already said but i didn't read the thread fully.

BlindMunkey
June 19, 2009, 10:06 PM
I don't think Vegapunk created the awakened Zoans because of this page http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/512/16/

Its possible that Moster Chopper has something to do with the awakened Zoans but Sentoumaru was suprised when he saw Moster Chopper(like he saw a thing like that for the first time) and he is Vegapunk bodyguard so he should know about Vegapunks experiences.

Im sorry if this theory was already said but i didn't read the thread fully.

just from being vegapunkz bodyguard doesnt mean he should know about vegapunks experiments. besides we all know how much of secret keeper sentoumaru is. lol imo he doesnt know
[hr]

Well, seeing how Mr.4 was practically useless without Lasso, I kinda doubt it that it was Crocodile who happily provided him with it.

most likely crocodile recruited him like that. i think u probably said something along that thought.