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Fayte
June 11, 2009, 01:29 PM
Before the U-17 camp. Nationals skill level. (Character only)



-------------------
Unranked
-------------------

Nanjiroh
Echizen
Kabaji
Akutsu

----------------
Rank SS
----------------

1)Yukimura
2)Sanada

---------------
Rank S
---------------

3)Tezuka

---------------
Rank A
---------------

4)Atobe
5)Fuji
6)Shiraishi
7)Renji
8)Tachibana
9)Chitose
10)Kirihara
11)Kintarou
12)Yagyuu
13)Kite
14)Gin
15)Krauser
16)Niou


---------------
Rank B
---------------

17)Akutsu
18)Bunta
19)Oshitari
20)Kaidoh
21)Momo
22)Kenya
24)Rin
23)Kikumaru
25)Inui
26)Kai
27)Jackal
28)Jiro


---------------
Rank C
---------------

29)Kamio
30)Sengoku
31)Shinji
32)Ootori
33)Shishido
34)Amane
35)Hiyoshi
36)Kurobane
37)Gakuto
38)Chinen
39)Aoi
40)Tanishi
41)Mizuki
42)Koharu
43)Zaizen
44)Hitouji
45)Yuuta

---------------
Rank D
---------------

46)Saeki
47)Taka
48)Oishi
49)Richard
50)Kadowaki

---------------
Rank F
---------------

Non-regulars

Atobe the king
June 11, 2009, 01:51 PM
Singles

SS Class
Nanjiroh
Echizen
Yukimura (until we see just HOW Sanada beats him he's up there with the father son god duo)

S Class
Sanada
Tezuka
Fuji
Shiraishi
Chitose

A Class

Atobe
Kintarou
Kirihara
Renji
Tachibana
Kite
Bunta
Niou
Jackal
Yagyuu
Gin

B Class

Kaidoh
Oshitari
Sengoku
Rin
Kai
Kikumaru
Inui
Kenya
Momo

C Class

Shinij
Kamio
Gakuto
Hiyoshi
Shishido
Ootori
Kurobane
David
Saeki
Aoi
Chinen
Tanishi
Mizuki
Zaizen
Koharu
Hitouji
Akutsu
Jiro
Taka
Oishi


D Class

Yuuta
Ginka chu
etc

Doubles

SS Class
GOlden Pair

S Class
Silver Pair
Bunta n' Jackal

A Class
Any Rikkai Doubles team...
Emerald Pair
The Dunkin' Vipers:amuse
Double Lasers

B Class
The queer pair
Gakuto and Yushi
Eiji and Momo

C Class
Fuji Taka pair

D Class
Ryoma and anybody :p

Fayte
June 11, 2009, 01:58 PM
This was not meant to be a "post your own" topic...but to discuss the one I made.

Atobe the king
June 11, 2009, 02:01 PM
I see...but you came to the this conclusion on your own, a unanimous tier lists involves members of the community coming together to decide the rankings. just looking at our list you can see there are more than a few discrepancies.

Fayte
June 11, 2009, 02:03 PM
If you feel something isn't correct, speak up. If I can provide an argument to go against what people say, it wont be changed. If your argument is good where I see your point and agree, I'll change it. I'm not going to accept bias in my list.

Atobe the king
June 11, 2009, 02:05 PM
I'd rather not...especially now given my responsibilities, we'll just see what the other forum members do.

Fayte
June 11, 2009, 02:07 PM
You have read the same series as everyone else, so you are entitled to your knowledge as well. We are going by facts for this list. Not opinions. If you feel someone is misplaced, provide evidence for that by using the series.

Atobe the king
June 11, 2009, 02:11 PM
I'm not going to do that...

And on a final note..it's impossible for your list to be factual seeing as Konomi could easily come and dump on both of our lists and declare Horio the best in the series.

Sherlock Holmes
June 11, 2009, 02:37 PM
Krauser was beating the hell out of Kirihara until he used his Devil Ex Machina to turn the game around. He should be in Rank A as well, since he is at the very least better than the Kirihara that almost beat both Fuji and Ryoma.

I'd put Sanada in the same ranking as Tezuka and Fuji, though he is stronger than both of them he is just not good enough to be together with Yukimura. I would put Atobe up there with Tezuka and Fuji.

He could have even beat Sanada, hadn't Yukimura stopped the match. And remember, Yukimura always knew just how good Sanada was.

The only reason he lost to Ryoma was...Well, plot hax. It's like he has a super Rock that beats everyone(World of ice), but Tezuka and Ryoma both have the super paper that defeats the super rock(Tezuka zone)

So he is definitely S Ranked.

Also, I say we keep the list because since it will be updated with new chapters and/or member's opinions, it will be a good reference in future predictions.
With that said, this list is in no way a perfect ranking because we have to account for Popularity Power, Drama Power, Law of Training, and stuff like that. But still, it might be fun to keep this list here.

Fayte
June 11, 2009, 05:44 PM
I'm not going to do that...

And on a final note..it's impossible for your list to be factual seeing as Konomi could easily come and dump on both of our lists and declare Horio the best in the series.

No tier list is factual... Do you think Kishimoto comes up with the tier lists for the Naruto videogames? No, the experienced players do.


Krauser was beating the hell out of Kirihara until he used his Devil Ex Machina to turn the game around. He should be in Rank A as well, since he is at the very least better than the Kirihara that almost beat both Fuji and Ryoma.


You need to take the times into consideration. Krauser can do nothing against the current Kirihara, Fuji, or Echizen. Therefore, he is not in the same category.


I'd put Sanada in the same ranking as Tezuka and Fuji, though he is stronger than both of them he is just not good enough to be together with Yukimura. I would put Atobe up there with Tezuka and Fuji. He could have even beat Sanada, hadn't Yukimura stopped the match. And remember, Yukimura always knew just how good Sanada was.



Nowhere in the series does it say, nor suggest Yukimura is on another level entirely, than Sanada. This is just your opinion.

As for Atobe, Sanada was having fun by spamming Zan and laughing about it. It was hardly serious. Saying "Yukimura always knew how good Sanada was" is also your opinion. The series is unclear when Sanada told anybody about Rai and In, and when he created it. Yukimura may have not known about Sanada's Rai until after the match with Atobe. We don't know. That was Kantou Sanada against Nationals Atobe.

The list stays as is for now.

Sherlock Holmes
June 11, 2009, 06:08 PM
No tier list is factual... Do you think Kishimoto comes up with the tier lists for the Naruto videogames? No, the experienced players do.



You need to take the times into consideration. Krauser can do nothing against the current Kirihara, Fuji, or Echizen. Therefore, he is not in the same category.



Nowhere in the series does it say, nor suggest Yukimura is on another level entirely, than Sanada. This is just your opinion.

As for Atobe, Sanada was having fun by spamming Zan and laughing about it. It was hardly serious. Saying "Yukimura always knew how good Sanada was" is also your opinion. The series is unclear when Sanada told anybody about Rai and In, and when he created it. Yukimura may have not known about Sanada's Rai until after the match with Atobe. We don't know. That was Kantou Sanada against Nationals Atobe.

The list stays as is for now.
Krauser might not be able to beat the current Kirihara, but was the OLD Kirihara weaker than the currents Niou/Kite rest of your A-Ranked list?
Therefore, even if he is behind the current Kirihara, he deserves a spot in the A-Ranked list. Maybe not top A-Ranked, but hey A-ranked nonetheless.

As for evidence that Yukimura is better than Sanada and that he always knew about his techniques...

He was not once surprised during Sanada's match against Tezuka.
Also, he said himself that he could beat Sanada.

http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/00000009/00000348/11.jpg

It's not my opinion that Yukimura always knew about Sanada's techniques. It's just more probable that he did than that he didn't.

First of all, Yukimura mentioned that Sanada "sealed off" Rai and stuff. That implies that he knew about it, otherwise he would have been surprised at Sanada's "new" technique. Also, they probably played a few matches and practiced with each other. It's more probable to assume that they did than to assume they didn't.

But okay, the "sealed off" comment means Yukimura KNEW about Rai and in.
The question is "Would Sanada break the seal in order to defeat Atobe?"
One might argue that he wouldn't, because he didn't when he was facing Echizen. But against Echizen, he never expected to lose. He was fooling around a little during the match, and Echizen won with a surprise Cool Drive during a match point.

But even if we assume he didn't, Yukimura was SO SURE Sanada would lose that he stopped the match.

That means that Atobe was at the very least, on a different level from Kantou Sanada, with Rai and co sealed off. Not just Echizen-barely-manages-to-win kind of level, way above that.

And being above Kantou's Sanada automatically makes Atobe at the very least better than the rest of the A-Ranked list. So it's either Top of Rank A, or bottom of Rank S. I would personally put him on the bottom of Rank S.

So, based on that evidence, I say Krauser should go A-Rank and Atobe either to the top of A-Rank, of bottom of Rank S.

As for Yukimura being on a different level than Sanada, frankly I just never saw Sanada returning special shots the way Yukimura did, without even breaking a sweat. But since there is not enough evidence to presume he is that much better than him, and a match is coming up to provide us with that evidence, I'll drop that claim.

Atobe the king
June 11, 2009, 06:45 PM
I agree with pretty much everything you say Sherlock, but i have Atobe at the topi of my A-Rank list..maybe he should be in Low S you make a good point.

No one in the series did what Yukimura or to that extent...he was crushing Ryoma beat all the doors..and this isn't even taking into account the fact that the Guy gives you the Yips.


No tier list is factual... Do you think Kishimoto comes up with the tier lists for the Naruto videogames? No, the experienced players do.

Nice analogy...except experience players didn't come up with the list in this case, you did all by your lonesome.

Dansan1
June 11, 2009, 07:20 PM
I must say you guys are hard on poor Atobe.

He was equal to Echizen prior to POP (or do we say Echizen grew in the Kin-chan match?...not counting the final new technqiue). Echizen just physicaly outlasted him. Tennis wise they were even.

Fayte
June 11, 2009, 09:23 PM
Krauser might not be able to beat the current Kirihara, but was the OLD Kirihara weaker than the currents Niou/Kite rest of your A-Ranked list?
Therefore, even if he is behind the current Kirihara, he deserves a spot in the A-Ranked list. Maybe not top A-Ranked, but hey A-ranked nonetheless.

I doubt Krauser would be able to beat Niou or Kite. Remember, the first two matches against Nagoya in the finals were a loss on purpose. Bunta pair and Yagyuu let them win. After Kirihara won, Renji and Niou 6-1'd them, and Sanada 6-0'd the guy. Krauser was great to be able to match Kantou Kirihara, but still isn't enough for Nationals A ranks.



As for evidence that Yukimura is better than Sanada and that he always knew about his techniques...

He was not once surprised during Sanada's match against Tezuka.
Also, he said himself that he could beat Sanada.

It's not my opinion that Yukimura always knew about Sanada's techniques. It's just more probable that he did than that he didn't.

First of all, Yukimura mentioned that Sanada "sealed off" Rai and stuff. That implies that he knew about it, otherwise he would have been surprised at Sanada's "new" technique. Also, they probably played a few matches and practiced with each other. It's more probable to assume that they did than to assume they didn't.


You misread my post. I never said Yukimura never knew, I said we don't know WHEN Yukimura knew. What we DO know, is that Sanada didn't start using Rai until the Nationals started. That's how he 6-0'd everyone in the National tournament, except Tezuka. The nationals started AFTER Sanada's match with Atobe. So we still don't know when Sanada actually created the techniques, before or after Kantou. The series isn't clear. Obviously Yukimura is going to know about Rai in the finals, if he is spamming the hell out of everyone in the entire tournament. By the finals, nobody on rikkaidai should be surprised. ESPECIALLY Yukimura.

But the issue is In. We do not know when he told Yukimura about it. All we know is, it was obviously created any time before the national finals.

*Side Note*
This is entirely unrelated, but my own theory is that Sanada didn't just develop "In" for Tezuka. My mind's eye is, he created it specifically to counter Atobe's WoI after Yukimura stopped his match, and Chitose's PoGW at the same time, so they wouldn't be a problem in the Nationals. Then, it just made it easy for him when he found out Tezuka achieved PoGW. The reason why I say this is because it is unlikely Sanada created "In" years ago, when Tezuka only obtained PoGW in the semifinals. It wouldn't make sense. This isn't incorporated into my thinking on this matter, It's just my own personal theory.




The question is "Would Sanada break the seal in order to defeat Atobe?"
One might argue that he wouldn't, because he didn't when he was facing Echizen. But against Echizen, he never expected to lose. He was fooling around a little during the match, and Echizen won with a surprise Cool Drive during a match point.

But even if we assume he didn't, Yukimura was SO SURE Sanada would lose that he stopped the match.

That means that Atobe was at the very least, on a different level from Kantou Sanada, with Rai and co sealed off. Not just Echizen-barely-manages-to-win kind of level, way above that.

And being above Kantou's Sanada automatically makes Atobe at the very least better than the rest of the A-Ranked list. So it's either Top of Rank A, or bottom of Rank S. I would personally put him on the bottom of Rank S.

So, based on that evidence, I say Krauser should go A-Rank and Atobe either to the top of A-Rank, of bottom of Rank S.

As for Yukimura being on a different level than Sanada, frankly I just never saw Sanada returning special shots the way Yukimura did, without even breaking a sweat. But since there is not enough evidence to presume he is that much better than him, and a match is coming up to provide us with that evidence, I'll drop that claim.

Would he break the seal? My minds eye says he didn't have the seal. We DO know that Atobe defeated "Zan," however we don't know if Sanada would use any other of the FuuRinKaZan, and play smart. We really don't know how the match would have ended. We know if he continued spamming Zan, he would have lost. Maybe that's what Yukimura meant? We don't know.

As for Nationals Atobe being on a higher level than Kantou Sanada? I'd say so. Nationals Atobe being on the same level as Nationals Sanada? certainly not. Yukimura didn't say "Everyone except Atobe will never beat Sanada," did he.

As for Sanada not returning special shots, I think a doubled Ka wouldn't be returnable by anyone but Yukimura himself. Sanada returned that with ease. Really now, with Rai, Sanada can return anything. You can't use that as a comparison.

I want to see how you answer these first, before changes are made.

Dansan1
June 11, 2009, 09:48 PM
What about Kin being the lowest of the Shinten three? Both Chitose and Shirashi said he was better?

Sherlock Holmes
June 11, 2009, 09:49 PM
I doubt Krauser would be able to beat Niou or Kite. Remember, the first two matches against Nagoya in the finals were a loss on purpose. Bunta pair and Yagyuu let them win. After Kirihara won, Renji and Niou 6-1'd them, and Sanada 6-0'd the guy. Krauser was great to be able to match Kantou Kirihara, but still isn't enough for Nationals A ranks.



You misread my post. I never said Yukimura never knew, I said we don't know WHEN Yukimura knew. What we DO know, is that Sanada didn't start using Rai until the Nationals started. That's how he 6-0'd everyone in the National tournament, except Tezuka. The nationals started AFTER Sanada's match with Atobe. So we still don't know when Sanada actually created the techniques, before or after Kantou. The series isn't clear. Obviously Yukimura is going to know about Rai in the finals, if he is spamming the hell out of everyone in the entire tournament. By the finals, nobody on rikkaidai should be surprised. ESPECIALLY Yukimura.

But the issue is In. We do not know when he told Yukimura about it. All we know is, it was obviously created any time before the national finals.

*Side Note*
This is entirely unrelated, but my own theory is that Sanada didn't just develop "In" for Tezuka. My mind's eye is, he created it specifically to counter Atobe's WoI after Yukimura stopped his match, and Chitose's PoGW at the same time, so they wouldn't be a problem in the Nationals. Then, it just made it easy for him when he found out Tezuka achieved PoGW. The reason why I say this is because it is unlikely Sanada created "In" years ago, when Tezuka only obtained PoGW in the semifinals. It wouldn't make sense. This isn't incorporated into my thinking on this matter, It's just my own personal theory.



Would he break the seal? My minds eye says he didn't have the seal. We DO know that Atobe defeated "Zan," however we don't know if Sanada would use any other of the FuuRinKaZan, and play smart. We really don't know how the match would have ended. We know if he continued spamming Zan, he would have lost. Maybe that's what Yukimura meant? We don't know.

As for Nationals Atobe being on a higher level than Kantou Sanada? I'd say so. Nationals Atobe being on the same level as Nationals Sanada? certainly not. Yukimura didn't say "Everyone except Atobe will never beat Sanada," did he.

As for Sanada not returning special shots, I think a doubled Ka wouldn't be returnable by anyone but Yukimura himself. Sanada returned that with ease. Really now, with Rai, Sanada can return anything. You can't use that as a comparison.

I want to see how you answer these first, before changes are made.

Krauser
Krauser was not only better than Kantou's Kirihara, he was good enough to beat him until he got his power up. So he was on par with National Kirihara(pre devil mode) which accounts for the training Kirihara must have done before the nationals.

I don't know why you are bringing up the rest of Rikkai. I know they lost on purpose.

Krauser was better than Kantou Kirihara, for sure. And my point is, Kantou Kirihara is probably at the very least, in the same level as national Niou and co. Maybe not better than them, but definitely on the same level.

Krauser>>>>>>>>>>Kantou Kirihara
Kantou Kirihara<National Niou and other A ranked players

Therefore, given that he not only beat Kantou Kirihara, but absolutely DESTROYED him, I think it would be fair to put him at the very least in the A rank. As for where in the A rank, I suggest in the bottom because we haven't seen that much of him.

Yukimura knowing about the techniques
As for Rai, I don't even think he spammed it throughout the tournament. Because of this page:
http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/00000009/00000347/008-009.jpg
He sealed off his two ultimate techniques.
That means he hasn't used them until that match. I actually think he had those techniques since before Kantou. It wouldn't be much of a seal if he simply didn't waste his ultimate technique in nameless characters.
And since Yukimura compares to a technique Tezuka had all along but didn't use...Well.
Fuji more or less confirms that.
http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/00000009/00000348/07.jpg
More or less. Not enough to be 100% sure, but I'd go with 80%.
In and Rai were the two techniques "sealed off" by Sanada.

Atobe vs Sanada
First of all, we agree that National Atobe>Kantou Sanada.
Now, can we agree that Kantou Sanada>Entire A Rank?
If we can agree on that, then that's it. Atobe should be on either the top of Rank A, or bottom of Rank S.

And I don't think Yukimura meant "stop spamming your techniques Sanada. USE.SOME. FUCKING. VARIETY." when he said that Sanada would lose. Otherwise, instead of immediatly stopping the match after ONE SINGLE POINT he would have just yelled something between the lines of "Sanada. You have 6 broken techniques. Use a different one."

That, added to the fact that Atobe has a broken technique that has only one counter so far(Tezuka Zone) Shadow is not a counter since Atobe is aiming at spots his opponent can't see, instead of predicting where he is going. And if he can't see where the ball is going, he can't use his broken teleport, since he wouldn't know where to go. If you blindfolded Flash from the DC comics for example, then he could accidentally go to the Niagara falls instead of reaching the finish line. Know what I mean?

Also, Atobe has his other broken serve.

Not to say he would beat Sanada for sure. But he has a chance. And having a chance of beating Mr.BrokenMcBrokerson means he deserves the top of A Rank, or bottom of S Rank.

Fayte
June 12, 2009, 09:35 AM
Krauser
Krauser was not only better than Kantou's Kirihara, he was good enough to beat him until he got his power up. So he was on par with National Kirihara(pre devil mode) which accounts for the training Kirihara must have done before the nationals.

I don't know why you are bringing up the rest of Rikkai. I know they lost on purpose.

Krauser was better than Kantou Kirihara, for sure. And my point is, Kantou Kirihara is probably at the very least, in the same level as national Niou and co. Maybe not better than them, but definitely on the same level.

Krauser>>>>>>>>>>Kantou Kirihara
Kantou Kirihara<National Niou and other A ranked players

Therefore, given that he not only beat Kantou Kirihara, but absolutely DESTROYED him, I think it would be fair to put him at the very least in the A rank. As for where in the A rank, I suggest in the bottom because we haven't seen that much of him.


The whole idea around saying "Nationals" or "Kantou" is referring to their skill level. The Kirihara that played Krauser was actually "Kantou Kirihara," because Akaya was the last to evolve.

"Nationals Kirihara" didn't come into the picture UNTIL his match with Krauser and evolved.
"Nationals Fuji" didn't come into the picture UNTIL he played Shiraishi and evolved.
"Nationals Tezuka" didn't come into the picture UNTIL he played Chitose and evolved.

Up until those points, they were all still at Kantou level, just playing in the Nationals. So to say Krauser was winning against "Nationals Kirihara" would be wrong, because he didn't evolve until he went into his devil mode. He was winning against "Kantou Kirihara."



Yukimura knowing about the techniques
As for Rai, I don't even think he spammed it throughout the tournament. Because of this page:

He sealed off his two ultimate techniques.
That means he hasn't used them until that match. I actually think he had those techniques since before Kantou. It wouldn't be much of a seal if he simply didn't waste his ultimate technique in nameless characters.
And since Yukimura compares to a technique Tezuka had all along but didn't use...Well.
Fuji more or less confirms that.

More or less. Not enough to be 100% sure, but I'd go with 80%.
In and Rai were the two techniques "sealed off" by Sanada.


You forgot about this page, where Sanada uses Rai against the randy (singles 1) on Nagoya, and went on to win it 6-0.

http://www.onemanga.com/Prince_of_Tennis/339/03/

Rikkaidai won 5-0 in every match throughout the Nationals (except Nagoya) which suggests Sanada was raping people 6-0. If he used Rai against that Nagoya randy, he was using it the whole time.



Atobe vs Sanada
First of all, we agree that National Atobe>Kantou Sanada.
Now, can we agree that Kantou Sanada>Entire A Rank?
If we can agree on that, then that's it. Atobe should be on either the top of Rank A, or bottom of Rank S.

That, is logic I will accept.
*Atobe's rank updated*



And I don't think Yukimura meant "stop spamming your techniques Sanada. USE.SOME. FUCKING. VARIETY." when he said that Sanada would lose. Otherwise, instead of immediatly stopping the match after ONE SINGLE POINT he would have just yelled something between the lines of "Sanada. You have 6 broken techniques. Use a different one."



As for what Yukimura meant, we will never know. I personally think the best answer is that Yukimura knows Sanada is stubborn, and he would have lost because of it. (IE: spamming 1 move)

I can't base my answers around an opinion, though

Neru
June 12, 2009, 11:03 AM
http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/2012/267v.jpg
Obviously, Kintarou>Shiraishi/Chitose

But I did like to hear your reason for his placement below them though.

Fayte
June 12, 2009, 03:09 PM
Kintarou isn't placed above them because it isn't obvious. We have no idea how a match between them would end up. We are about to though, when the Kintarou/Chitose match comes up. Then we will see how the two match up against each other.

Sherlock Holmes
June 12, 2009, 03:20 PM
Now that we solved Atobe's problem, let's move on to Krauser:

Krauser was MUCH better than Kantou Kirihara. Would you say Kantou Kirihara was on the same level as National Niou/rest of the Rank A?
If if Kantou Kirihara wasn't on the same level as the rest of the Rank A list, he definitely wouldn't lose 6-0 to them. He would at least get 6-3, or 6-4.
And Krauser was DESTROYING Kantou Kirihara 5-0. So it's safe to assume that even if Krauser is not THAT strong, he could in the very least, put up a decent fight against the other A Ranked players.

Fayte
June 12, 2009, 05:50 PM
Alright, list updated. I do believe this is more accurate now.

**
Kirihara moved to rank 6
Shiraishi moved to rank 7
Kintarou moved to rank 8
Renji moved to rank 9
Chitose moved to rank 10
Krauser moved to rank 15
Niou moved to rank 16
**

Atobe the king
June 12, 2009, 06:24 PM
I just noticed this but wtf is Akutsu doing up so high on your list...

Ravsieg
June 12, 2009, 08:27 PM
Count with a list from me after I get some sleep.

Fayte
June 12, 2009, 09:14 PM
I just noticed this but wtf is Akutsu doing up so high on your list...

Because I think he could beat everyone on the list below him in a singles match?

We can't assume he sucks because he lost to plothax Echizen. The only other match he played, he won 6-0. So I'm preparing for what we will all inevitably see in U-17.

Atobe the king
June 12, 2009, 09:26 PM
And you say there's no bias in this list eh? weren't you going on about the fact that this list is based off of facts and not opinions? And yet Akutsu is above the likes of Kaidoh or Inui

Why the hell is Oishi in D class...

He lost to Echizen, normal echizen, a non muga echizen who simply outsmarted him using tactics. Using only his Twist serve, Drive a and Drive B

This was a pre-Hyotei match, Echizen didn't become god until the quarterfinals of the nationals.

Sherlock Holmes
June 12, 2009, 09:26 PM
Because I think he could beat everyone on the list below him in a singles match?

We can't assume he sucks because he lost to plothax Echizen. The only other match he played, he won 6-0. So I'm preparing for what we will all inevitably see in U-17.

Because you think?
What happened to the evidence you so proudly spoke of?

Lol same time post with the same conclusion.

Fayte
June 12, 2009, 09:35 PM
Alright, If you guys will cry about it, he goes unranked.

Dansan1
June 13, 2009, 02:22 AM
I think it is obvious with Kin-chan since Konomi stated (via both Chitose and Shiraishi's mouth) that he was the strongest on the team. We don't have to bother trying to guess about hypothetical match ups.

Bowser
June 13, 2009, 05:42 AM
Wouldn't Tachibana be better than Chitose because Tachibana held back? Although I can see why you put Chitose above him though.

David beat Hiyoshi and another 99 odd pre regulars...
Taka beat David and Kurobane with Momo...and would it be fair to say Higa Chuu > Rokkaku?

JyAZ
June 14, 2009, 08:38 PM
From what we've seen of Sengoku, we have no idea how much he's improved his loss to Nationals. Because of this, I believe that Momo and Kamio should both be above him. In the story, Sengoku is praised of being Yamabuki's best player, but we the audience have seen him lose both times he's played. I think that this should give us the impression that the players that beat him are better.

Also, I don't believe that waiting to see a match between two people truly show who's better 100% of the time. I will say that it's the most direct way, but there are certain times when there's a rock-paper-scissors type of thing.

KuwabaraTheMan
June 15, 2009, 11:40 AM
Yeah, Momoshiro and Kamio should both definitely be above Sengoku. Furthermore, Momoshiro should probably be right next to Oshitari in skill. It was pretty clear that they were mostly on even ground, with Oshitari thinking that Momoshiro might have won if he pulled out all the stops one point sooner.

Yuuta should be in mid-C rank, too. It was said that he stomped Saeki in a Singles match, so there's no reason he shouldn't be above him.

javimgol
June 15, 2009, 04:03 PM
UNRANKED
1)Nanjiro
2)Ryoma

RANK SS
3)Yukimira
4)Tezuka
5)Sanada
6)Fuji

RANK S
7)Atobe
8)Shiraishi
9)Chitose
10)Kintaroh

RANK A
11)Tachibana
12)Kirihara
13)Gin
14)Niou
15)Renji

RANK B
16)Yagyyu
17)Akutsu
18)Bunta
19)Oshitari
20)Inui
21)Kaidoh
22)Kabaji
23)Jackal
24)Kite


RANK C
25)Sengoku
26)Tanishi
27)Hiyoshi
28)Kikumaru
29)Oishi
30)Kawamura
31)Shishido
32)Momoshiro
33)Shinji
34)Kenya
35)Kamio
36)Koharu
37)Aoi
38)Saeki
39)Kai
40)Jirou
41)Davide
42)Amane


RANK D
43)Ootori
44)Chinen
45)Mizuki
46)Hitouji
47)Richard
48)Kadowaki
49)Gakutoh
50)Itsuki

Bowser
June 21, 2009, 07:02 AM
Fuji above Atobe? Chitose above Kintarou? Chitose above Tachibana? Kirihata and Niou above Renji?

javimgol
June 22, 2009, 08:21 AM
Fuji above Atobe? Chitose above Kintarou? Chitose above Tachibana? Kirihata and Niou above Renji?
Fuji's Finals is of course better.How the hell could Kintaroh counter Chitose's Saiki? Renji lost VS Inui, with the help of Kirihara they defeated Inui and Kaidoh, so Kirihara is better. And Nioh was the chosen to play Single in the final, so we must suppose is the third best single player of Rikkai

Atobe the king
June 22, 2009, 08:59 AM
Because everyone in Shitenhouji agrees that Kinatro is the best on their team..and Kintaro is on the color spread

DavenSodan
June 22, 2009, 09:07 AM
And how can Chitose beat him with Saiki? Hm... he could say "Hey, I need 2000 shots to win the rally"... his body wouldnt make it to win a whole Tiebreak.

Atobe the king
June 22, 2009, 09:46 AM
And how can Chitose beat him with Saiki? Hm... he could say "Hey, I need 2000 shots to win the rally"... his body wouldnt make it to win a whole Tiebreak.

Thats the big weakness of Saiki...sure you know how many shots it would take but what if you cant handle it?

javimgol
June 22, 2009, 11:26 AM
Thats the big weakness of Saiki...sure you know how many shots it would take but what if you cant handle it?
Maybe you are right...but we have seen in the manga that Saiki only can be defeated with close eyes (Fuji), a better prediction (Tezuka), or touchless (Yukimira)

Bowser
June 22, 2009, 11:31 AM
Renji lost VS Inui, with the help of Kirihara they defeated Inui and Kaidoh, so Kirihara is better. And Nioh was the chosen to play Single in the final, so we must suppose is the third best single player of Rikkai

Fair enough on Kirihara (besides we know hes gonna win...but he isnt better until probably after the nationals) and just because Niou played the second singles in the finals, doesn't mean hes better than Renji.

Atobe the king
June 22, 2009, 11:36 AM
Fair enough on Kirihara (besides we know hes gonna win...but he isnt better until probably after the nationals) and just because Niou played the second singles in the finals, doesn't mean hes better than Renji.

Yea, Rikkai is known for mixing up their line up, even Sanada has played doubles

Fayte
June 22, 2009, 12:26 PM
That was so funny when Sanada and Renji played doubles against Shinji and Kamio and won 6-0.

But it was said that Sanada and Renji played as if it were a singles match.

javimgol
June 23, 2009, 03:04 AM
Rikkai can mix because the have 8 National level players, only the can do it.
And why Nioh is for me better than Kirihara,Renji and co.?
Because Tezuka or Shiraishi are better than them, and 90% copy of Tezuka (even TPhantom!!!!), with the only exception of the Z-S-Serve can defeat him. Yukimira says in that match that only Sanada and him could defeat that Nioh (well, he didn´t count with Hoshi Hanabi, of course)

Atobe the king
June 23, 2009, 07:37 AM
8 national level players doesn't mean they can only do it.

Seigaku can do it too, Hyotie can do it, Shitenhouji HAS done

Pretty much every team mixes up their line up, they just aren't as varied as Rikkai.

Fayte
June 23, 2009, 10:55 AM
Rikkai can mix because the have 8 National level players, only the can do it.
And why Nioh is for me better than Kirihara,Renji and co.?
Because Tezuka or Shiraishi are better than them, and 90% copy of Tezuka (even TPhantom!!!!), with the only exception of the Z-S-Serve can defeat him. Yukimira says in that match that only Sanada and him could defeat that Nioh (well, he didn´t count with Hoshi Hanabi, of course)

Niou isn't on Renji's level. Renji was the third best since year 1.

Bowser
June 23, 2009, 12:15 PM
Yukimira says in that match that only Sanada and him could defeat that Nioh

Evidence :D? Maybe I don't read properly...I scan it and thats it.

Atobe the king
June 23, 2009, 12:25 PM
I sure as hell don't remember them saying that.

javimgol
June 23, 2009, 12:33 PM
Maybe appeared in the anime, well I'm not sure,maybe isn´t stated.
Renji's year 1 and 2 and maybe Tokyo is better than Nioh, of course.
But Yukimira, when he sees his match VS Fuji, says that he has never seen an illusion as good as this http://www.onemanga.com/Prince_of_Tennis/361/02/
I think it's his evolution since Kantoh, all the characters evolved and his evolution was being even a better swindler.
And how could Renji defeat 90% Tezuka or Shiraishi (and maybe 90% Sanada, Yukimira, Fuji,Ryoma,Atobe...)?

Fayte
June 23, 2009, 04:37 PM
And how could Renji defeat 90% Tezuka or Shiraishi (and maybe 90% Sanada, Yukimira, Fuji,Ryoma,Atobe...)?

I have no idea what this means.

Bowser
June 23, 2009, 05:22 PM
So Niou is better than Renji and Yagyuu is better than both of them AND Tezuka, Sanada etc in your opinion? Unless you are saying, "No, Niou is better than Renji, but Renji is better than Yagyuu?" Oh wait, Yagyuu beat Niou did he not? Does that ultimately make him better? Okay, maybe you can't judge them like that, but why didnt Niou use his illusion then?

Fayte
June 23, 2009, 05:29 PM
Niou is NOT better than Renji. If he was, he would have been one of the three demons of Rikkai instead. It is clear who runs the show.

1) Yukimura
2) Sanada
3) Renji
4) Kirihara
5) Yagyuu
6) Niou
7) Bunta
8) Jackal

Sherlock Holmes
June 23, 2009, 05:35 PM
As much as I love Niou, he is not better than Renji.

Could he beat Renji in a match? Maybe. He's the magnificent bastard from hell. He tricks everyone, and maybe Renji would be unable to use data tennis against his tricks.(Yagyuu could only read him because they are, from what I gather, best friends and spend enough time together for him to notice his habits)

He is the kind of character that gets stronger in a certain match(e.g, vs fuji) but his strenght level isn't constant it keeps floating around. Which is why, even if he defeated say, Renji, he would still be worse than him.

Atobe the king
June 23, 2009, 05:50 PM
He could definitely best Renji...probably 7-5 or a tough breaker. Inui can't get data on Nioh and Nioh tends to mock Renji satirically (Our strategist sure is scary) He could become Sanada and spam forest...bu buy Renji

Hmm...over 901 post on a forum for a monthly manga..gofuckingfigure huh lol?

Sherlock Holmes
June 23, 2009, 06:06 PM
LOL, actually if the manga was weekly we wouldn't discuss it as much as we do.

I mean, in the old pot forum we barely discussed it. Just predicted new chapters and joked about how DBZian it was getting.

We'll have over NINE THOUSAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAND posts in no time.

I wonder what's going to happen when we run out of topics though. Maybe we could start a POT rpg. I'm the coolest GM ever.

Example of Sherlock Holmes being a gm.

-----Player 1------
Ryoma runs towards the ball, and uses a drive B. He is careful to aim in a spot where Sanada can't return.

----Player 2------
Sanada uses Rai to get to the ball, and then uses Fuu to return it as fast as he can.

----GM Sherlock Holmes----
*Caham*
Rock falls. Everyone dies.

Player 1: WHERE DID THE ROCK COME FROM?
Player 2: WE WERE IN A TENNIS COURT FOR GOD'S SAKE!

GM Sherlock Holmes: DO NOT ARGUE WITH THE GAMEMASTER.

Atobe the king
June 23, 2009, 06:18 PM
Lol that was funny Sherlock, but try to stay on topic ;)

Sherlock Holmes
June 23, 2009, 06:25 PM
Right. On topic.
Hmm...How strong is Oshitari for real? He sucks at Doubles, but he won against Plot-Haxed Momoshiro so I guess that counts for something. And he won against Mr.IHaveaSpecialAbilityThatIOnlyUseInCertainMatchesAndForgetThatIHaveItInOthers by going all out on him, he didn't even bother with following a plan. Which is awesome.

KuwabaraTheMan
June 23, 2009, 06:29 PM
Oshitari is supposed to be the second best guy on Hyoutei, since he is their genius player.

I'd rank both him and Momoshiro around the same level, which would be around Top 20 or so. Both of them have the nasty habit of never going all out until late in their matches, though. Which makes them hard to judge.

Sherlock Holmes
June 23, 2009, 06:31 PM
Oshitari is supposed to be the second best guy on Hyoutei, since he is their genius player.

I'd rank both him and Momoshiro around the same level, which would be around Top 20 or so.

Momo-ICANREADYOU-shiro yeah, top 20. Momo-ISPAMJACKKNIFEEVENTHOUGHITNEVERWORKS-shiro, I'd put him way, way, way, WAY bellow that.

Atobe the king
June 23, 2009, 06:31 PM
I always say, if Hyotei had a vice captain it would be Yushi, no one else is good enough.

Sherlock Holmes
June 23, 2009, 06:32 PM
I always say, if Hyotei had a vice captain it would be Yushi, no one else is good enough.

Vice captains are not defined by how good they are. Seigaku's vice captain is Oishi, remember?

KuwabaraTheMan
June 23, 2009, 06:39 PM
Momo-ICANREADYOU-shiro yeah, top 20. Momo-ISPAMJACKKNIFEEVENTHOUGHITNEVERWORKS-shiro, I'd put him way, way, way, WAY bellow that.

Well, obviously when you rank players you look at them at their best. Hopefully the current developments in the series are leading to Momoshiro developing his skills more and no longer spamming Jack Knife like nobody's business.

Atobe the king
June 23, 2009, 06:42 PM
Vice captains are not defined by how good they are. Seigaku's vice captain is Oishi, remember?

Yea but he's a doubles specialist, and in that regard he is excellent.

Thats said Yushi just seems like Vice captain material.

JyAZ
June 23, 2009, 07:41 PM
Yea but he's a doubles specialist, and in that regard he is excellent.

Thats said Yushi just seems like Vice captain material.

Captain and Vice-Captain status aren't always for the best players. Look at Rokkaku.

Atobe the king
June 23, 2009, 07:45 PM
Captain and Vice-Captain status aren't always for the best players. Look at Rokkaku.

Yes but Hyoteis set up is the traditional power ladder, as is Rikkai.

Fayte
June 23, 2009, 09:27 PM
Don't forget what happened with Gakuto. Oshitari sent him home blindfolded on a unicycle. My personal opinion, Oshitari is made for singles.

JyAZ
June 23, 2009, 09:46 PM
Yes but Hyoteis set up is the traditional power ladder, as is Rikkai.

I agree I supposed based on Hyotei's reputation of being a ladder. I think it's an 90% chance that Oshitari is Hyotei's second best player. The other 10% goes to Jirou and Kabaji. Kabaji is a beast of his own as we've seen, and we haven't seen much of Jirou. He was toyed with by Fuji, but only filler can show us that Oshitari would do much better.

javimgol
June 24, 2009, 03:19 AM
I think Kabaji could beat Oshitari. If he can imitate his shots, he's much more stronger, I think.
And for been vicecaptain you have to be charismatic. You have to be able to substitute the captain if he's injured. I think Oishi and specially Sanada did it pretty well. Oshitari is very popular, so I think it's a good option, although Shishido would be also good.
The vicecaptain should be a leader. And one thing, who are the vicecaptains of Fudoumine and Shitenhouji?

KuwabaraTheMan
June 24, 2009, 03:24 AM
I think Kabaji could beat Oshitari. If he can imitate his shots, he's much more stronger, I think.
And for been vicecaptain you have to be charismatic. You have to be able to substitute the captain if he's injured. I think Oishi and specially Sanada did it pretty well. Oshitari is very popular, so I think it's a good option, although Shishido would be also good.
The vicecaptain should be a leader. And one thing, who are the vicecaptains of Fudoumine and Shitenhouji?

Kamio for Fudoumine. Shitenhouji's Vice-Captain is that dude who never played. I'm blanking on his name right now.

Sherlock Holmes
June 24, 2009, 02:54 PM
Don't forget what happened with Gakuto. Oshitari sent him home blindfolded on a unicycle. My personal opinion, Oshitari is made for singles.

Love the way you put it.

Yeah, I think Oshitari is maybe at fuji's level right now. Okay, maybe not at his level, but close.

I mean, Gakuto took 5 games against Inui and Kaidoh.

Sure it was part of their plan, but they wouldn't even NEED a plan if he was that weak.

And in only a 7 point tiebreak? His stamina problem is gone. And yet, Oshitari just rapes him like that.

Plus, Oshitari played a good match against Atobe in the Ova.
He is probably going to surprise us in his next matches.

Atobe the king
June 24, 2009, 03:28 PM
You can't use the ova as an argument (no matter how awesome) because it's filler in this case.

I'd put Oshitari between the fujis..better than Pre Shiraishi Fuji but worse than Post Shiraishi Fuji

JyAZ
June 24, 2009, 03:45 PM
You can't use the ova as an argument (no matter how awesome) because it's filler in this case.

I'd put Oshitari between the fujis..better than Pre Shiraishi Fuji but worse than Post Shiraishi Fuji

I don't know. That's admitting that Momo is also better than Pre-semifinals Fuji. He lost to Oshitari, but you have to admit that it was a close match.

javimgol
June 24, 2009, 03:50 PM
You can't use the ova as an argument (no matter how awesome) because it's filler in this case.

I'd put Oshitari between the fujis..better than Pre Shiraishi Fuji but worse than Post Shiraishi Fuji
Better than Pre Shiraishi Fuji???? Are you OK?
Fuji had 4 counters, a good serve and can play perfectly with eyes closed (VS Kirihara). Oshitari had a good serve.
IMAO, that match didn´t raise Momo's level (for me, the true baggage of Seigaku, i'm a bit hard, I know), but to put Oshitari in his place: a good and maybe very good player, just that. I think he is far of the level of Shiraishi, Chitose, Kirihara,Renji,Nioh,Yagyyu...

Atobe the king
June 24, 2009, 03:51 PM
Not really, had Yushi stopped screwing around he would have won earlier, he had the ability to close off Momo's nature skills if Im correct...

Don't remember though, i refuse to read that match until i read the volume itself next month when Viz releases it.


Better than Pre Shiraishi Fuji???? Are you OK?
Fuji had 4 counters, a good serve and can play perfectly with eyes closed (VS Kirihara). Oshitari had a good serve.
IMAO, that match didn´t raise Momo's level (for me, the true baggage of Seigaku, i'm a bit hard, I know), but to put Oshitari in his place: a good and maybe very good player, just that. I think he is far of the level of Shiraishi, Chitose, Kirihara,Renji,Nioh,Yagyyu..

Pre Shiriashi fuji was nothing special, pretty much the same Kanto fuji with a 4th counter.

No one knows what Yushi is capable of, and Fujis cut serve is nothing special, Shiriashi owned the crap out of it.

Oshitari wouldn't have too much trouble with the triple counters he already knows how Higuma Otoshi works, Tachibana, Kirihara, Shiriashi, Hirakoba and Nioh returned them handily, even pre Akutsu echizen found his own way around Higuma otoshi

Sherlock Holmes
June 24, 2009, 04:03 PM
You can't use the ova as an argument (no matter how awesome) because it's filler in this case.

I'd put Oshitari between the fujis..better than Pre Shiraishi Fuji but worse than Post Shiraishi Fuji

Wasn't the ova based on Volume 40.5?

Well, as for Oshitari vs Pre Shiraishi fuji....Let's see.

Tsubame Gaeshi=Oshitari is a genius, so he can just refrain from hitting topspins. Not something anyone can do, but again, OSHITARI IS A GENIUS.

Higuma Otoshi=Both of them have it.

Hakugei=The most useless counter in my opinion. I mean, "Instead of making it hard to return, I'll make the ball come to my court, therefore making it easier to return! As expected of me, Fuji, the prodigy." Sure, it could be useful as a surprise, but since everyone in the court always yells "THERE IT IS!" when he uses it, then the surprise element is kind of gone. Also, Fuji ALWAYS makes a pose after hitting a counter.

Kagerou Zutsumi=Yeah. It anulates the spin of the ball. Good for countering broken techniques, but useless on its own.


So it comes down to who is better at pure tennis. And Oshitari OUTPLAYED MOMO. No tricks or special techniques. He just outplayed him. And while Momo sucks in front of all the broken techniques, he is very good in just pure tennis. And Oshitari outplayed him.

So yeah, I'd put Oshitari(specially considering he is Hyotei's Fuji. Genius. Higuma Otoshi user. Never plays seriously. Sucks playing doubles, is great at singles.) on the same level as pre Shiraishi fuji.

Fuji=One level above Kaidoh and Inui.
Kaidoh and Inui=Same level as Gakuto.
Oshitari=One level above Gakuto.

Doing that math, the result is simple lol.

javimgol
June 24, 2009, 04:05 PM
Not really, had Yushi stopped screwing around he would have won earlier, he had the ability to close off Momo's nature skills if Im correct...

Don't remember though, i refuse to read that match until i read the volume itself next month when Viz releases it.



Pre Shiriashi fuji was nothing special, pretty much the same Kanto fuji with a 4th counter.

No one knows what Yushi is capable of, and Fujis cut serve is nothing special, Shiriashi owned the crap out of it.

Oshitari wouldn't have too much trouble with the triple counters he already knows how Higuma Otoshi works, Tachibana, Kirihara, Shiriashi, Hirakoba and Nioh returned them handily, even pre Akutsu echizen found his own way around Higuma otoshi

Do you think Oshitari is better than Kirihara? I'm sure not. Fuji won him blinded. Do you think is better than Kanto's Tezuka?Because after that match Ryuzaki said he was at his level.
Oshitari lost VS Momo and Kikumaru (well, his partner was Gakutoh, a cancer), too. I think that Momo-Oshitari match was the way to make close the Seigaku-Hyotei QF. Fuji didn´t play that match because, in theory, he was going to be in D1 with Kawamura(where Silver Pair would have destroyed them), but last minute Oishi's recuperation changed that.

KuwabaraTheMan
June 24, 2009, 04:15 PM
Not really, had Yushi stopped screwing around he would have won earlier, he had the ability to close off Momo's nature skills if Im correct...

Don't remember though, i refuse to read that match until i read the volume itself next month when Viz releases it.

No, Momoshiro would have won if he had stopped screwing around earlier. Oshitari thought that he had read through Momo's ability, but then he realized that Momo had been hiding his true strength even during that.

Oshitari's last shot was a fluke shot (by his own admission), and it was pretty clear that if Momo went all out one point sooner he would have won.

I think both Momo and Oshitari are at least close to Fuji's level around that point in the series. Not quite at it, but close. Of course, then Fuji evolved a huge amount during his last two matches.

javimgol
June 24, 2009, 04:39 PM
Kaidoh and Inui=Same level as Gakuto.

Please, don´t put on the same levl two awesome players with that cancer called Mukahi Gakutoh

JyAZ
June 24, 2009, 04:41 PM
Tsubame Gaeshi=Oshitari is a genius, so he can just refrain from hitting topspins. Not something anyone can do, but again, OSHITARI IS A GENIUS.

You're ignoring the fact that we all know what Fuji does when the opponent stops hitting top spins.

Fayte
June 24, 2009, 04:43 PM
Do you think Oshitari is better than Kirihara? I'm sure not. Fuji won him blinded.

Fuji would have lost, had he not been blind. He even said it himself.

Sherlock Holmes
June 24, 2009, 04:46 PM
Please, don´t put on the same levl two awesome players with that cancer called Mukahi Gakutoh

Let me try this again:

Kaidoh and Inui=Same level as a Gakuto with no stamina problems.


You're ignoring the fact that we all know what Fuji does when the opponent stops hitting top spins.

Not really. When the opponent stops hitting top spins, Fuji used to hit the Tsubame Gaeshi anyway, though it was slightly weaker than the usual shot.

But nowdays, if the opponents stops hitting top spins, Fuji pulls a new counter out of nowhere.

Bowser
June 24, 2009, 04:53 PM
Oshitari had a good serve.

I'm pretty sure he has a normal serve to me.

And Hyoutei has NO vice-captain.


But nowdays, if the opponents stops hitting top spins, Fuji pulls a new counter out of nowhere.

he forces them to hit cord balls doesn't he? or is it just anime im confusing manga with?

Kaidoh would own Gakuto if it was singles IMO.



that match didn´t raise Momo's level (for me, the true baggage of Seigaku

Definately not, Momo a baggage? How many important matches has he won for Seigaku? Kawa was on his last year and only had sheer power (which is useless in U17 since u had Gin) but compared to Momo, who has a sharpened insight, some good baseline shots and smash, with kaidoh's sets and his ability to trick the opponent + determination (okay, so does Kawamura but that match, as everybody agreed, was just total crap)

Sherlock Holmes
June 24, 2009, 05:03 PM
he forces them to hit cord balls doesn't he? or is it just anime im confusing manga with?

Kaidoh would own Gakuto if it was singles IMO.

What I meant is "every time Fuji has a problem, he creates a new counter."
Seriously. He is losing against Shiraishi? COUNTER TIME.
He is losing against Niou? COUNTER TIME.
He can't find the remote controller? COUNTER TIME.

But what I mean about Gakuto is that as much of a cancer as he is, he is a beast when he has no stamina problems. And he had no problems whatsoever against Oshitari because it was just a tiebreak, not a full game. And Oshitari still not only won, but won 7-0. Which means that Gakuto with no stamina problems(who was better than Kantou Kikumaru) is MUCH worse than Oshitari. Which means Oshitari is really really good.

My logic goes like this:

Gakuto sucks.
Why? Because of his stamina problem.
Therefore, Gakuto without stamina problem= awesome.

Gakuto vs Oshitari had no stamina problem.
Awesome Gakuto vs Oshitari= Oshitari won 7-0.

That means that Oshitari is really, really good.

javimgol
June 24, 2009, 05:04 PM
I'm pretty sure he has a normal serve to me.

And Hyoutei has NO vice-captain.


he forces them to hit cord balls doesn't he? or is it just anime im confusing manga with?

Kaidoh would own Gakuto if it was singles IMO.



Definately not, Momo a baggage? How many important matches has he won for Seigaku? Kawa was on his last year and only had sheer power (which is useless in U17 since u had Gin) but compared to Momo, who has a sharpened insight, some good baseline shots and smash, with kaidoh's sets and his ability to trick the opponent + determination (okay, so does Kawamura but that match, as everybody agreed, was just total crap)

I prefer the most powerful player that someone whith insight, but smaller than Atobe's, Snakes but worse than Kaido's, strong but less than Kawamura, smashes but worse than Atobe's, tricks but less than Nioh..
But it's just an opinion. I'm not subjective because I really love the character of Kawamura (maybe because being only strong is the same team as IDESTROYPHYSICLAWSINEVERYMATCH like Fuji,Tezuka,Ryoma,Kimumaru...)

Sherlock Holmes
June 24, 2009, 05:10 PM
I prefer the most powerful player that someone whith insight, but smaller than Atobe's, Snakes but worse than Kaido's, strong but less than Kawamura, smashes but worse than Atobe's, tricks but less than Nioh..
But it's just an opinion. I'm not subjective because I really love the character of Kawamura (maybe because being only strong is the same team as IDESTROYPHYSICLAWSINEVERYMATCH like Fuji,Tezuka,Ryoma,Kimumaru...)

Momo shouldn't be compared to Atobe. If anything, his trickery should be compared with Niou.

Fayte
June 24, 2009, 05:12 PM
IDESTROYPHYSICLAWSINEVERYMATCH like Fuji,Tezuka,Ryoma,Kimumaru...)

Who the hell is that?

Atobe the king
June 24, 2009, 05:12 PM
I prefer the most powerful player that someone whith insight, but smaller than Atobe's, Snakes but worse than Kaido's, strong but less than Kawamura, smashes but worse than Atobe's, tricks but less than Nioh..
But it's just an opinion. I'm not subjective because I really love the character of Kawamura (maybe because being only strong is the same team as IDESTROYPHYSICLAWSINEVERYMATCH like Fuji,Tezuka,Ryoma,Kimumaru...)


If you admit that your not being objective your point is moot, what has Kawamura done for Seigaku?

yea thats right...aside from win a few doubles matches and the biggest bullshit win of the series?nothing

You honestly think Kawamura's power beats all of momo's skills? riiight

What has Momo done for Seigaku? Beat Sengoku with a cramped legged. Become an accomplished doubles player, and the one who got the ball rolling on Ryoma's memory revival.

Momo is infinitely more useful than Taka. Zaizen was spot on about extra baggage.

He even lost his spot to Echizen and became a reserve player back in the prefectural tournament.

javimgol
June 24, 2009, 05:16 PM
If you admit that your not being objective your point is moot, what has Kawamura done for Seigaku?

yea thats right...aside from win a few doubles matches and the biggest bullshit win of the series?nothing

You honestly think Kawamura's power beats all of momo's skills? riiight

What has Momo done for Seigaku? Beat Sengoku with a cramped legged. Become an accomplished doubles player, and the one who got the ball rolling on Ryoma's memory revival.

Momo is infinitely more useful than Taka. Zaizen was spot on about extra baggage.

He even lost his spot to Echizen and became a reserve player back in the prefectural tournament.
Kawamura it´s the most powerful player of Japan, so please a bit of respect (I'm laughing while I'm writing this, it really sounds funny so great words to someone like Kawamura)

Atobe the king
June 24, 2009, 05:20 PM
Gin is the most powerful player.

Technically yes Kawamura is the best since he took all those Hadokyou's and Gin couldn't handle one.

But in the manga the final Hadokyou barely surpassed Gins 40 something level Hadokyou (some on feel free to correct me on this because i freakin hate that match).

Gin, aside from Kirihara is the closest in the series to actually KILLING someone.

This is why Kawamura is not on the color spread >_>

JyAZ
June 24, 2009, 05:20 PM
My logic goes like this:

Gakuto sucks.
Why? Because of his stamina problem.
Therefore, Gakuto without stamina problem= awesome.

Gakuto vs Oshitari had no stamina problem.
Awesome Gakuto vs Oshitari= Oshitari won 7-0.

That means that Oshitari is really, really good.

Gakuto is mainly a doubles player. Oshitari was introduced as a doubles player, but he strayed away from it I guess. Oishi is arguably the best doubles player, but he got destroyed by Kikumaru. So is Kikumaru godly, too?

Like I said before, no matter what your opinion about the character is, he had a VERY close match with Momo. Oshitari even admits it.

http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/00000009/00000278/01.jpg

You argue that Oshitari was holding back, but so was Momo. They are on the same level.

EDIT:
Technically yes Kawamura is the best since he took all those Hadokyou's and Gin couldn't handle one.

But in the manga the final Hadokyou barely surpassed Gins 40 something level Hadokyou (some on feel free to correct me on this because i freakin hate that match).

I believe you're right. In the manga, Kawamura's final shot wasn't stronger than level 108, but it in the anime it was. Gin's arm got messed up because he tried to use the Hadoukyuu cancel move but the shot wasn't a true Hadoukyuu because Kawamura hit the ball with the frame of his racket instead of the gut. You can see it in the anime, too, but they don't mention anything about it. And shouldn't Kintarou be the best power player? I'm confused.

javimgol
June 24, 2009, 05:24 PM
Gin is the most powerful player.

Technically yes Kawamura is the best since he took all those Hadokyou's and Gin couldn't handle one.

But in the manga the final Hadokyou barely surpassed Gins 40 something level Hadokyou (some on feel free to correct me on this because i freakin hate that match).

Gin, aside from Kirihara is the closest in the series to actually KILLING someone.

This is why Kawamura is not on the color spread >_>
IMO, the most powerful player is Kintaroh, not Gin. Gin is the second, I was kidding. Both are in the color spread XD But I loved that poor Kawamura had a GLORY AND EPIC moment.

Atobe the king
June 24, 2009, 05:30 PM
Kintaro has a more powerful shot but he isn't the most powerful in my opinion.

He probably has the most stamina in the entire series, calling him the most powerful can mean many things.

JyAZ
June 24, 2009, 05:35 PM
Kintaro has a more powerful shot but he isn't the most powerful in my opinion.

He probably has the most stamina in the entire series, calling him the most powerful can mean many things.

That's maybe what I was thinking. He might not have general power, but the form of that one crazy move can maybe output enough power to surpass Gin. Because it's such a strange movement, Kintarou is probably able to put his whole body into the shot in a strange enough way to make it a super mega wild power whatever.

Atobe the king
June 24, 2009, 05:39 PM
That shot is supposedly more powerful than Gins strongest Hadokyou..but Yukimura returned it easily.

JyAZ
June 24, 2009, 05:40 PM
That shot is supposedly more powerful than Gins strongest Hadokyou..but Yukimura returned it easily.

I've learned that you don't have to be a power player to have power. ESPECIALLY in the games. I guess it's more like you're a power player if that's the only thing you have or it's your main style of play. I mean, SH2 gives Tezuka an S and Kawamura an SS?

Atobe the king
June 24, 2009, 05:44 PM
That games stat system is silly, they have Tezuka's base stats so high above everyone it's ridiculous. he's like S or SS in everything.

Ravsieg
July 15, 2009, 07:24 PM
If I'm not mistaken, on SH2 Tezuka has a couple of S and the rest is A.

On FTST everyone's stats are pulled down, maybe to make room for the main mode custom stat developing. And he's A on everything.

Actually, SS on FTST are only possible through training on the Form the Team mode. There are few default S's other than Nanjiro. If I recall it right, Echizen and Fuji have it at Technique, Akutsu at Speed, Kawamura and Kabaji at Power and that's it.

Atobe the king
July 15, 2009, 07:53 PM
Yukimura also had a base stat of S in power...ironic since..you know he never tries to overpower anyone.

Ravsieg
July 15, 2009, 07:57 PM
Yeah. He was put in the game years before his playing style was actually revealed. And it went all wrong.

Sherlock Holmes
July 20, 2009, 01:41 AM
30)Shinij
31)Kamio
Given their recent match, they should switch positions.


32)Gakuto
33)Hiyoshi
Considering that Gakuto was absolutely raped by Oshitari, he should drop a few spots. At the very least, it's clear that he sucks at singles enough for him to be behind Ootori.

34)Shishido
35)Ootori
Switch positions, and be above Hiyoshi, both of them.

32)Ootori
33)Shishido
34)Hiyoshi
35)Gakuto
The next chapter should tell us Hiyoshi's exact position though, so never mind that. Just switch Ootori and Shishido.

49) Richard should be cut from the list due to his recent death.
So yeah, those would be my alterations on the list given the recent chapters. Fayte, can you agree with them?

Fayte
July 20, 2009, 11:03 PM
30)Shinij
31)Kamio
Given their recent match, they should switch positions.


32)Gakuto
33)Hiyoshi
Considering that Gakuto was absolutely raped by Oshitari, he should drop a few spots. At the very least, it's clear that he sucks at singles enough for him to be behind Ootori.

34)Shishido
35)Ootori
Switch positions, and be above Hiyoshi, both of them.

32)Ootori
33)Shishido
34)Hiyoshi
35)Gakuto
The next chapter should tell us Hiyoshi's exact position though, so never mind that. Just switch Ootori and Shishido.

49) Richard should be cut from the list due to his recent death.
So yeah, those would be my alterations on the list given the recent chapters. Fayte, can you agree with them?

Done.

KuwabaraTheMan
July 21, 2009, 01:24 AM
Some other thoughts on character placement.



29)Sengoku
30)Kamio

Kamio beat Sengoku, so shouldn't he be above him?


34)Hiyoshi
38)David

Hiyoshi was mentioned as being among the 100 Hyoutei pre-regulars that David owned.



36)Saeki
46)Yuuta

Yuuta beat Saeki in a match (this was mentioned back during the St. Rudolph match)

Atobe the king
July 21, 2009, 08:12 AM
All of Hinata fans corrections are true, David did pwn Hiyoshi and Yuuta has beaten Saeki.

Fayte
July 21, 2009, 09:13 AM
Remember, I made that list very fast. I did it so you guys can look it over and make corrections. Updated for Hinata fan. Also, I put Fuji and Atobe at the top of rank A instead. I honestly don't believe they can be in the same category as Tezuka as of yet.

Ravsieg
July 21, 2009, 09:35 AM
Here comes Sengoku getting in discussion. I'd rather not plough myself in here because we all know what.

javimgol
July 21, 2009, 10:37 AM
Before the U-17 camp. Nationals skill level. (Character only)



-------------------


---------------
Rank S
---------------

3)Tezuka

---------------
Rank A
---------------

4)Atobe
5)Fuji
6)Kirihara
7)Kintarou
8)Shiraishi
9)Renji
10)Tachibana
11)Chitose
12)Yagyuu
13)Kite
14)Gin
15)Krauser
16)Niou

---------------




I can´t understands this order. How can be Kirihara better than Shiraishi, Chitose and, most of all, Kintarou?
Renji better than Tachibana or Chitose?
Yagyyu so much better than Nioh???

First of all, I wouldn´t put Tezuka in a different Rank. Put him Rank SS or A, but he isn´t a world apart. Or even better, put Yukimira just above Echizens, and in Rank S would be Tezuka and Sanada, Sanada first if you want.

And for me, the order of Rank A should be (with Tezuka being the third of Rank SS, or second of Rank S):
Fuji (he can counter anything. ANYTHING)
Atobe
Kintaroh
Shiraishi
Tachibana
Chitose
Kirihara
Gin (I think you need more strength to send a guy fair away the court than crucifying)
Krauser
Renji
Nioh (just one match isn´t enough for me to be under Yaggyu)
Yagyyu

Bowser
July 21, 2009, 01:27 PM
Fuji (he can counter anything. ANYTHING)
Atobe
Kintaroh
Shiraishi
Tachibana
Chitose
Kirihara
Gin (I think you need more strength to send a guy fair away the court than crucifying)
Krauser
Renji
Nioh (just one match isn´t enough for me to be under Yaggyu)
Yagyyu

If this is at National, no. Whether Fuji is better than Atobe...well...possibly with Fuji playing on par with a fake one...and Atobe not being able to surpass him. Kin above Shiraishi seems alright, Tachibana over Chitose yes, but thats only if Chitose didn't injure his freaking eye. Kirihara above Gin...hmm...I cant think of any technique out of my head that Kirihara could do to beat Gin...Hadoukyuu!! Renji is still a target for Kirihara, he is one of the three demons, thus should be above Kirihara as of now, but not until we see enough of him. Nioh is above Yagyuu before U17 camp possibly.


---
Why is Kabajii unranked :D? the two echizens are probably like SSS as far as Im concerned. Kintarou was playing on par with an Non-Ten'i Muhō No Kiwami Echizen, and that Echizen beat Atobe, but hasn't surpassed Tezuka yet - surely this is enough reason to possibly put Kintarou above Atobe?

Atobe the king
July 21, 2009, 04:01 PM
Kintaro has no real way of beating world of ice...

Sherlock Holmes
July 21, 2009, 04:18 PM
Sanada being SS seems like an exaggeration. I think you should drop him to S.
No, better yet.
Move Tezuka up to SS, and move Fuji/Atobe to Rank S. That sounds fair, since both Atobe and Fuji would rape the entire rank A.
As for Kintarou's rank, I say we wait a little for his match against Chitose to update his ranking. Saying that Echizen>Atobe and Kintarou=Echizen doesn't equal to Kintarou>Atobe. I don't know how anyone besides (maybe) Sanada, Yukimura, Echizen , Tezuka and Fuji could counter it.

I don't see how Kintarou could.

As for Fuji being above Tezuka, definitely not. He was being pwned by Niou's copy of Tezuka that was only around 80% of his power, and only won because Niou couldn't finish him off with the zero shiki serves.

As for Gin>Krauser, I disagree. Yeah Gin has more power, but Krauser has more technique. How precise do you have to be to control the way a person falls?

And saying that power>technique woul be like saying that Taka>Momo

Fayte
July 21, 2009, 04:40 PM
Sanada being SS seems like an exaggeration. I think you should drop him to S.
No, better yet.
Move Tezuka up to SS, and move Fuji/Atobe to Rank S. That sounds fair, since both Atobe and Fuji would rape the entire rank A.
As for Kintarou's rank, I say we wait a little for his match against Chitose to update his ranking. Saying that Echizen>Atobe and Kintarou=Echizen doesn't equal to Kintarou>Atobe. I don't know how anyone besides (maybe) Sanada, Yukimura, Echizen , Tezuka and Fuji could counter it.

I don't see how Kintarou could.

As for Fuji being above Tezuka, definitely not. He was being pwned by Niou's copy of Tezuka that was only around 80% of his power, and only won because Niou couldn't finish him off with the zero shiki serves.

As for Gin>Krauser, I disagree. Yeah Gin has more power, but Krauser has more technique. How precise do you have to be to control the way a person falls?

And saying that power>technique woul be like saying that Taka>Momo

Sanada being SS is an exaggeration? are you kidding me right now?

The gap between Sanada and Tezuka is blatant.
As is the gap between Tezuka and Fuji.

There is no way Krauser is doing anything against Gin. Taka won by a fluke.

Atobe the king
July 21, 2009, 07:55 PM
I agree with Sherlock that Sanada isn't leaps and bounds ahead of Tezuka, i still believe they are roughly equal, things wouldn't be the same if they played again.

I also agree that Krauser probably has more technique than Gin..better footwork too since it was implied he was faster than Kirihara who's speed is comparable to echizens.

Fayte
July 22, 2009, 09:45 AM
Tezuka could not return Rai one single time. Sanada is on another level.

As for Krauser, he certainly does not have what it takes to return Gin's hadoukyuus, if he got owned by Kirihara's power shots. Footwork means nothing in PoT, unless your name is Kamio, Sanada, Kikumaru, Kenya etc.

Atobe the king
July 22, 2009, 10:19 AM
Tezuka could not return Rai one single time.

The point was that he didn't have to. :eyeroll

When did footwork become a part of Sanada's repertoire? And of course footwork matters.

Fayte
July 22, 2009, 01:53 PM
The point was that he didn't have to. :eyeroll

When did footwork become a part of Sanada's repertoire? And of course footwork matters.

When? Zan? Rai? You can't teleport without having footwork. And of course it matters in real life. But in PoT, I would say not. Gin would destroy Kamio. It doesn't matter how fast you are if you can't hit the ball over the net.

javimgol
July 22, 2009, 01:59 PM
Do you think Ranks A could beat Oni? Maybe he was kidding with Momo and he is really better.
If not, I think Shiraishi, Nioh and cia could beat him with no much problems, he's just strength, and Momo broke his racket in the end....

Sherlock Holmes
July 22, 2009, 02:33 PM
Hell, Momo himself could beat him if he knew what to expect. He hurt his wrists because he was caught off guard.

Then he instantly realized he couldn't win and tried pulling a Niou on the guy.
He failed, but still Momo did really well the way he was hurt. If he went all I-can-read-you for the entire match I think he could win.(Which is probably how he is going to beat him later)

Sanada doesn't have footwork. He goddamn teleports himself to wherever he wants.

The yips happen when you can think that no matter what you do, you can't beat someone.
Can we agree on that?

Sanada got the yips.
Can we agree on that?

Sanada is therefore much weaker than Yukimura(for now. Who knows after the black aura)
Can we agree on that?

If he is that much weaker than Yukimura, then him being in the same ranking as him IS an exaggeration.
So, we could drop Sanada to level S, or move Tezuka to SS, and Atobe/Fuji to S(because frankly, they got no competition within the Rank A)

Ravsieg
July 22, 2009, 04:48 PM
I agree with all these changes, Sherlock.

Now YES, I'll do my OWN tier-list before looking at this thread's not to get biased. Then I'll (or we, depends if you're willing to do it) compare them and talk about it.

Fayte
July 22, 2009, 06:04 PM
The yips happen when you can think that no matter what you do, you can't beat someone.
Can we agree on that?



Here is where you are wrong. That is not the yips. Kintarou was the only person who described what actually happened. He said "No matter how you hit the ball, that guy will always return it." and he went on to say that you get the image of Yukimura always returning the ball.

That is entirely different than getting an image of not being able to win a match against someone.

Yukimura is NOT on a different level than Sanada. They are even without the Yips, Yukimura is obviously better when yips in use, Sanada is obviously better with the black aura. What is there not to understand?


Now YES, I'll do my OWN tier-list before looking at this thread's not to get biased. Then I'll (or we, depends if you're willing to do it) compare them and talk about it.

Unnecessary. It is already created.

My list is different from what people expect BECAUSE it isn't noobed up with bias. I have made many changes based on request with ease, because the change is correct. However, I will not bring a character up or down simply because you like them or dislike them.

Ravsieg
July 22, 2009, 06:22 PM
I'm putting my favorite characters pretty lowly. I suck at being biased anyway. But I'll do my own list regardless.
[hr]

Yukimura is NOT on a different level than Sanada. They are even without the Yips, Yukimura is obviously better when yips in use, Sanada is obviously better with the black aura. What is there not to understand?

The difference is that Yukimura can control using yips, and he uses it all the time. As for Sanada it seems obvious he can't control the black aura, and he only used it ONCE ever. Yukimura wins largely on here.
If Sanada can put his black aura to constant and controlled use, he might go over Yukimura. But that's not the case right now. It worked for him in ONE point out of a total 8 as it is now, so it's definitely not going to make him Yukimura level.

Sherlock Holmes
July 22, 2009, 07:01 PM
Fayte, how do the yips work then in your opinion?

Also, what is this of "obviously" better than Yukimura? We know NOTHING about the black aura. We only saw one shot of it, and Yukimura was caught off guard.

Sanada was a dead man walking, and suddenly he hits a shot even better than Rai. Of course he couldn't return it. Who knows, maybe he could return it if he was prepared for it.

There is no evidence that Yukimura, once prepared for it couldn't return the black aura.

So assuming Sanada is at the same level as Yukimura based on something the manga hasn't elaborated on is not fair.

So, drop Sanada a rank, and if the black aura turns out to be something that really makes Sanada that much better(remember, we don't have FACTS about the black aura yet, only speculation. It could be an aura that makes its user make tastier pizzas for all that we know) then move him up. But until then, either drop him or up Tezuka to his level.

Sanada's match with Tezuka was NOT a Sanada ownage fest. It was Sanada breaking his legs spamming rai because he HAD to spam rai to beat Tezuka. If Sanada didn't win the match at that exact moment, it could have gone either way.

Tezuka and Sanada are on the same level. Yukimura is in a whole new level.

Fayte
July 22, 2009, 09:45 PM
Also, what is this of "obviously" better than Yukimura? We know NOTHING about the black aura. We only saw one shot of it, and Yukimura was caught off guard.

Sanada was a dead man walking, and suddenly he hits a shot even better than Rai. Of course he couldn't return it. Who knows, maybe he could return it if he was prepared for it.

There is no evidence that Yukimura, once prepared for it couldn't return the black aura.

So assuming Sanada is at the same level as Yukimura based on something the manga hasn't elaborated on is not fair.


I'll tell you the evidence. Yukimura crapping his pants is the evidence. If he could in any way return it, he wouldn't have been scared. Sanada reached a level that Yukimura couldn't comprehend at that moment. That is why the narration said that there was a deep fear inside Yukimura. Don't take things out of context just because you like Yukimura.




spamming rai because he HAD to spam rai to beat Tezuka.

He did? Because he won without it. He didn't start gaining the lead again until he STOPPED using it, remember?


Fayte, how do the yips work then in your opinion?

I already mentioned this in my post above. Though this isn't my "opinion," this is the fact of the series.


That is not the yips. Kintarou was the only person who described what actually happened. He said "No matter how you hit the ball, that guy will always return it." and he went on to say that you get the image of Yukimura always returning the ball.

That is entirely different than getting an image of not being able to win a match against someone.

Sherlock Holmes
July 22, 2009, 10:40 PM
So basically you are saying the yips work like this:
"Oh it's not that I can't win against him, I just can't score any points because he hits everything back"?

You know, those two are kind of the same thing.

Yukimura might have been scared, he might have been surprised. Maybe it was the technique that his long lost evil twin brother used against him once that is entirely useless but still, seeing it was a surprise. That is not evidence.

You can interpret his reaction as surprise. Don't deny that this is a possibility. Maybe he was just surprised. Sure, he ended the match quickly. But why? For all that we know, maybe the technique(while still returnable by Yukimura) created some unbelievable amount of stress to Sanada and he had to end the match quickly to save him.

Can you deny that it's possible that Yukimura could very well return Sanada's black aura?

Look, I'm not saying the opposite either. I'm just saying that UNTIL WE GET EVIDENCE, THEN WE CAN'T PRETEND THAT WE UNDERSTAND IT.

So until the technique is explained to us, no Sanada being close to Yukimura.

Remember the reason Tezuka was using Tezuka Phantom? Because he couldn't return Rai.

If Sanada hadn't spammed Rai in the first place, he wouldn't have broken the Tezuka Zone, he wouldn't have raped Tezuka down to 5-0(I believe it was 4-0) or anything.

Sanada had no choice but to use everything he had against Tezuka. Then when it was clear that Tezuka's trump card was better than his(Phantom vs Rai) he used Inn, not to win the battle of technique, but the endurance battle.

Sanada won by fucking up Tezuka's arm.(Nothing wrong with that. He and Atobe are part of the "destroy Tezuka's arm" club)
But the fact is, their techniques were the same level. Tezuka's happened to have the bigger drawback, which Sanada took advantage of(which is a good strategy) to win.

You don't go in battles of endurance against people on a lower level than you. You just crush them.

Rai<Phantom. If it's a matter of techniques, Tezuka is better. Of course, while Rai is a double edged sword, Phantom is a freaking double edged sword with no handle that is dripping poison. Which is why Sanada won.

Endurance, not technique. Remember, his plan was to make Tezuka keep using Tezuka Phantom until his arm broke down. The whole significance of giving up the head-on battle was that he couldn't beat Tezuka with just technique, and had to do so in a battle of enduance, which he accomplished.

Atobe the king
July 22, 2009, 11:11 PM
Again i agree with you Sherlock...just a few corrections

Ka was used to beat the zone
Sanada was up 4-0
He used Rin after Rai failed not In

Aside from that we're in agreement.

Sherlock Holmes
July 23, 2009, 12:08 AM
Right, he used Ka. My mistake, I thought Ka was the super smash one. I always get those two mixed up.

Atobe the king
July 23, 2009, 12:45 AM
Ka is the super smash one..but he can use it as a FH or a BH if he so chooses.

DavenSodan
July 23, 2009, 01:53 AM
I agree on the part that Yuki, as it is now, has to be one rank above all of them, because we know next to nothing about Sanadas black aura. The panel shows Yuki standing still and unprepared http://www.onemanga.com/New_Prince_of_Tennis/9/05/ then suddendly some ball out of nowhere (remember the serve bypassed Sanada) almost hit his head, blowing off his brace. Who wouldnt be shocked? Then it is said that "for a moment a Yuki could not believe what he saw" - "a sudden fear crossed his mind", so he might have been afraid of this black aura for a few seconds. But after that he does look like he is over it http://www.onemanga.com/New_Prince_of_Tennis/9/11/ imo.

Also remember that Yuki was really leading 5-0 when playing against Echizen before he went PoP plot-hax (thats where Konomi screwed up). And in the last game Yuki got used to the speed of PoP (altough I know there is no real PoP ;) ). So I just dont think that the black aura is something better than PoP (even though you, Fayte, will surley telling everyone now that it is) and that Yuki wouldnt handle it at all.

javimgol
July 23, 2009, 08:03 AM
Also remember that Yuki was really leading 5-0 when playing against Echizen before he went PoP plot-hax (thats where Konomi screwed up). And in the last game Yuki got used to the speed of PoP (altough I know there is no real PoP ;) ). So I just dont think that the black aura is something better than PoP (even though you, Fayte, will surley telling everyone now that it is) and that Yuki wouldnt handle it at all.

That is the definitive proof of how far is Yukimira from Sanada. PoP is definitively the best of Prince of Tennis and, in the end, Yukimira counter it. Maybe, if the match would have been longer, Yukimira would have won. I think that Konomi tried to tell us that message when Yukimira returned the Samurai Drive.
Sanada isn´t in that level, of course.

Atobe the king
July 23, 2009, 08:29 AM
I agree on the part that Yuki, as it is now, has to be one rank above all of them, because we know next to nothing about Sanadas black aura. The panel shows Yuki standing still and unprepared http://www.onemanga.com/New_Prince_of_Tennis/9/05/ then suddendly some ball out of nowhere (remember the serve bypassed Sanada) almost hit his head, blowing off his brace. Who wouldnt be shocked? Then it is said that "for a moment a Yuki could not believe what he saw" - "a sudden fear crossed his mind", so he might have been afraid of this black aura for a few seconds. But after that he does look like he is over it http://www.onemanga.com/New_Prince_of_Tennis/9/11/ imo.

Also remember that Yuki was really leading 5-0 when playing against Echizen before he went PoP plot-hax (thats where Konomi screwed up). And in the last game Yuki got used to the speed of PoP (altough I know there is no real PoP ;) ). So I just dont think that the black aura is something better than PoP (even though you, Fayte, will surley telling everyone now that it is) and that Yuki wouldnt handle it at all.

No..he was up 4-0..

okay

echizen serves first yuki breaks

1-0

Yuki serves 2-0

Echizen serves 3-0

Yuki Serves 4-0

Then Echizen got PoP while serving at 4-0

There is definitely a PoP..it exists..even if it is just Euphoria his shots got faster and stronger.

Ravsieg
July 23, 2009, 09:19 AM
Sigh. Really, I'll make my own tier-list and guide myself from it. One list that is biased enough to have Sanada very close to Yukimura can't really fit for me.

uchihaj
July 23, 2009, 09:43 AM
I also believe that Sanada and Yukimura can't be in the same class. Didn't Sanada stay in the black aura state for the rest of the game? I don't think it could have only been for one point. He got one game after achieving that aura, and I doubt if it happened without it activated. Yuki got serious and won.

I think Sanada should be S above Tezuka. I also think that Tachibana and Renji should switch. I got the idea that Tachibana actually broke through Saiki on his last shot so Renji's data in my opinion would make him fall short to that (and Inui beat him before fair and square). Plus the series has always made it seem as if Tezuka has some crazy acknowledgment for Tachibana, and that isn't the case with many. I think it could be his true strength that Tezuka can see, like he could see in Fuji and Echizen...

Mostly I like the list, but I think that the genius of Shitenhouji, Zaizen should be rank B. Becuase Kenya was told not to get in his way of the match, and they replaced Kenya in the doubles to go with the two stronger players. Otherwise they would have put Chitose in Zaizen's spot. Kenya said himself that the strong players should be the ones playing...

Ravsieg
July 23, 2009, 01:34 PM
But then you get Kenya picked for this camp while Zaizen isn't, so it's even.

Fayte
July 23, 2009, 02:38 PM
That is the definitive proof of how far is Yukimira from Sanada. PoP is definitively the best of Prince of Tennis and, in the end, Yukimira counter it. Maybe, if the match would have been longer, Yukimira would have won. I think that Konomi tried to tell us that message when Yukimira returned the Samurai Drive.
Sanada isn´t in that level, of course.

What on EARTH are you talking about? Just because Yukimura returned a couple of shots by Echizen in PoP you are saying he WOULD have won? LOL. Yukimura is great, and was Echizen's last opponent. Konomi HAD to make the match worth watching. What fun would it be if Echizen just raped Yukimura by hitting every single shot passed him and won? Konomi does things to please the fans, and THAT is how you miscalculate because you try putting those little things (which will never be seen again) that Konomi adds, into your argument and try to prove something that was never there to begin with.

The point was that Echizen got PoP! WOO AWESOME YA! not that Yukimura returned a couple balls. Impressive? yes. Needed for the fans to enjoy? I'd say so. Relevant to anything? no.



So I just dont think that the black aura is something better than PoP (even though you, Fayte, will surley telling everyone now that it is) and that Yuki wouldnt handle it at all.

When have I said that the black aura was better than PoP? Who gives a crap if Yukimura "was starting to get used to the speed" of Echizen's ball? He returned it and Echizen crushed him anyway. Big deal. The emphasis of that match was on Echizen, not Yukimura.

uchihaj
July 23, 2009, 03:10 PM
But then you get Kenya picked for this camp while Zaizen isn't, so it's even.

Good point... I don't think he has to be above Kenya, but I still think he is B ranked...

DavenSodan
July 23, 2009, 03:15 PM
What on EARTH are you talking about? Just because Yukimura returned a couple of shots by Echizen in PoP you are saying he WOULD have won? LOL. Yukimura is great, and was Echizen's last opponent. Konomi HAD to make the match worth watching. What fun would it be if Echizen just raped Yukimura by hitting every single shot passed him and won? Konomi does things to please the fans, and THAT is how you miscalculate because you try putting those little things (which will never be seen again) that Konomi adds, into your argument and try to prove something that was never there to begin with.

Err, that is the same as me saying that Sanada just got that black aura thing because Konomi did not want Yuki to beat him down 7-0 ... Of course Konomi HAD to make this match worth watching too... what fun would it be if Sanada just got the yips and ended up doing nothing at all? If there is no point in Yuki adjusting to the speed of PoP which could be even faster than the eye can possible see, then Sanadas black aura thing is just as pointless because he lost anyway, period. You were saying once that IF Yuki and Sanada played a whole set then Sanada would have won because of the black aura... it is the same as javimgol saying that Yuki could have won against Echizen if the played best of three... he COULD! Subjective!! His opinion! Burn that into your head.


When have I said that the black aura was better than PoP?

You didnt, directly at least. I just assume that if Yukimura can get used to PoP (altough a little too late), he can return whatever is trown at him if he gets a little time.

Sherlock Holmes
July 23, 2009, 03:51 PM
Fayte, the whole forum(with the exception of you) believes that Sanada is not on the same level as Yukimura. Don't you think this warrants a drop on his rank?

I mean, it's not like your vote is more important than ours.

Bowser
July 23, 2009, 04:30 PM
Of course Konomi HAD to make this match worth watching too... what fun would it be if Sanada just got the yips and ended up doing nothing at all?

Okay, despite having the same opinion as most the forum, I have to disagree with this one, at least part of it. I agree it had to be worth seeing, but the other reason, was that there had to be a reason for Sanada to stay and he is one of the main character so there had to be improvement.


it is the same as javimgol saying that Yuki could have won against Echizen if the played best of three... he COULD!
Could he have? That would ruin the significance of POP. Besides, Yuki was still struggling anyway. I don't think he would've won.

Fayte
July 23, 2009, 05:28 PM
Err, that is the same as me saying that Sanada just got that black aura thing because Konomi did not want Yuki to beat him down 7-0 ... Of course Konomi HAD to make this match worth watching too... what fun would it be if Sanada just got the yips and ended up doing nothing at all? If there is no point in Yuki adjusting to the speed of PoP which could be even faster than the eye can possible see, then Sanadas black aura thing is just as pointless because he lost anyway, period. You were saying once that IF Yuki and Sanada played a whole set then Sanada would have won because of the black aura... it is the same as javimgol saying that Yuki could have won against Echizen if the played best of three... he COULD! Subjective!! His opinion! Burn that into your head.

You didnt, directly at least. I just assume that if Yukimura can get used to PoP (altough a little too late), he can return whatever is trown at him if he gets a little time.

No, it isn't the same. Yukimura hitting back a single shot is not comparable to Sanada being in a new state of being. As I said, one will never be seen again, the other is needed for the story. The story will not change because Yukimura hit back a split in half ball, however the story WILL change because of Sanada's new aura.

And a match between two minor characters (Sanada vs Yukimura) is NOT the SAME as a minor character (Yukimura) vs a MAJOR character (Echizen) let alone the main character.

Yukimura and Echizen could have played 100 sets, and Echizen would have won every time. Sanada and Yukimura could have played an actual game, and the direction of the match would be in Sanada's favor. Why? because Yukimura is at his limit, and Sanada is still evolving. THAT is what is being said. And, don't give me "Their hasn't been anyone to make Yukimura evolve" because Echizen is all over your face. Yukimura is at his limit, and I personally believe he will be taken out of the series because of it.

Ravsieg
July 23, 2009, 07:27 PM
Fayte, the whole forum(with the exception of you) believes that Sanada is not on the same level as Yukimura. Don't you think this warrants a drop on his rank?

I mean, it's not like your vote is more important than ours.

He's noticed it for sure by now anyway.. but it's not going to change, and thus I just can't really give much credit to the tierlist when there's serious bias right at the top even if the remaining is fine.

Fayte
July 23, 2009, 09:33 PM
I'm being bias by going by facts? Wow what backwards logic! You are all crying over something so retarded. Who cares? You all fail to prove me wrong, so move on to something else please.

Sherlock Holmes
July 23, 2009, 09:56 PM
No Fayte. You are biased because you think your opinion is more important than everyone else's.

Everyone thinks Yukimura>>>Sanada.
You don't. One would think that since the majority of people agree with one thing, then we would change the list to reflect that.

Why is your vote more important than everyone else's?


We are not failing to prove you wrong.You keep saying "I AM RIGHT I HAVE TEH FACTS!!!11" but no one here is convinced.

We are not the ones supposed to convince you. YOU are the one supposed to convince us. The list should reflect what the community as a whole believes, not what YOU believe.

Atobe the king
July 23, 2009, 10:00 PM
I'm being bias by going by facts? Wow what backwards logic! You are all crying over something so retarded. Who cares? You all fail to prove me wrong, so move on to something else please.

I'm pretty sure i warned you about these antagonistic condescending posts.

Your own rule was you wont accept bias in your little list, and that we should prove you wrong, every other suggestion is fine but when it comes to Sanada (Gasp your favorite character) you become defensive. Everyone gave their reasons why this particular part of the list should be changed but since it involves Sanada you'll have no part of it :eyeroll

Perhaps i should misuse or abuse my power and edit the list to mine and the others liking :eyeroll.

Better yet since there's nothing left to discuss and you're obviously are solid in your resolve I'm locking the topic.

If someone else is interested in making a more open list then be my guest.