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Josear XIII
June 13, 2009, 11:54 AM
I think this has been talked but i need to talk it.
Ok, Since i will be wanting to go on a rant for this (just kidding) i want to clarify something about this guy.

As i have understood everyone thinks that Wabizuke can double the weight of everything it touches including any types of living beings. So in this regard a lot of people had put Kira into a high rank when it comes to shinigami without counting Captains.

But sorry i cant just go and accept this as a truth, not at least till all the odd are against mines, and the whole theory becomes cornered and if there are people who actually sides with me, it will be a good time for them to appear. Since i have my ways of analyze the facts that are in my hands. Ok here i go ready or not:

Wabizuke as i have seen being used onto several fights from were we can count. Matsumoto and Avirama, where he actually used his ability and explain it on each. I do recognize for the second one that he states that he can doubles anything it touches:


18
Abirama: ...Ngh... / ...Shit... // What's wrong...? My wing just suddenly...
Kira: Doubling the weight of anything it slices. // A second slice means double that. // And a third doubles it yet again.

19
Kira: That is the power... // ...of my zanpakutou, "Wabisuke". // When you made that charge just then... / ...I sliced almost every feather on the wing you used to attack four times. // If those wings of yours truly are "heavier than rock"... // ...then there's no way you should be able to fly now.
Abirama: Playing tricks on me, huh? That's pretty dirty... // And you call yourself a true warrior...?!
Kira: "Dirty"?

But sorry for me it does not mean there is nothing in the universe it can double its weight, the way i see it, he can only double the weight of not living things so he can double the weight of "anything" but not "Anyone's" weight.

Something can dull my theory and that is the way Avirama's wing got more weight but as i said in a lot of threads an arrancar's releases turn the sword into a cover for its whole body so is like they are wearing their sword.

And let's go waaaaaaay back! to the battle with Matsumoto, if its zampakutoh could double the weight even on Living beings, Matsumoto would have lost a long ago, since kira is good at kidoh, zanjutsu, and shunpo. SOOOOOOO how come matsu won without a scrath so kira could not even double her arm or something

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/172/12/

So what are the facts, none of them tell me that he can double weight a person. Because everyone praise Kira as if he could beat a lot of people even if they are, Hakuda, Kidoh or Hohou experts. As i see it if he could double the weight even in living beings he could beat even komamura A CAPTAIN!, he could even beat Tosuen, if he werent on bankai, A LOT OF CHARACTERS WOULD FALL TO KIRA'S FEETS IF HE COULD DOUBLE WEIGHT LIVING BEINGS CHARACTERS.

So lets start the rumble


EDIT:

TRASNLATION OF THE KIRA EXPLANATION WHICH KILLS MY LOGIC WITH ONE WORD:

ALL


20
Kira: Excellent reactions!
Rangiku: What are you...?!
Kira: Just now... // How many times did you block it? / My blade.
Rangiku: Huh?

21
Rangiku: !
Kira: Doubling the weight of all that it strikes. // A second hit redoubles that weight. / A third doubles it yet again. // And thus...

22
Kira: The opponent, unable to bear this increased weight, will inevitably... // ...prostrate themselves upon the ground... / ...thrusting their head out as though apologising. // Thus the name... // "Wabisuke". [Apologiser] // You blocked Wabisuke's strikes... / ...a total of seven times just now. // If your blade originally weighed, say, 0.8 kilograms, / then multiplied by two to the power of seven, it is now 102.4 kilograms. // Not the kind of weight... // ...that can be carried about too easily.
Rangiku: ...So what? // If I can't carry it about... // ...then I'll just have to not hold it at all! // (Gin......)

But i still wont agree with this since this is from vs matsumoto, and the first is more recent from vs Avirama

ryanzokuken
June 13, 2009, 12:41 PM
for the most part, i agree.
but as for whether he can or can't weigh a person themself down, we have no idea.

i guess it's irrelevant, because if he landed a hit on their body, it would cut them anyways. so for example, if his sword struck Matsu's arm, it should just cut it off. once removed, what's it matter if the arm is doubled in weight?

but that brings me to another question.

let's say, hypothetically, that Kira was fighting a released Grimmjow. (he'd die in one moment, i know. this is just an example used for Grimmjow's release body type.)

Grimmjow has those blades on his forearms/elbows. well, let's say they were in a melee and Kira was by some miracle actually surviving.

what would happen if Grimm blocked Kira's sword with his forearm?
how would the weight doubling work?
would it weigh down Grimmjow's entire body, since his arm is part of it?
would it weigh down his entire arm, but only his arm? (from shoulder down)
would it weigh down his arm just from, say, the elbow downwards?
etc. etc. you get my point.

basically we don't know much about Wabisuke.

Tonguen_yomom
June 13, 2009, 12:47 PM
An arrancar's blade was a part of him before he underwent the mask-removal. Becoming an arrancar only seals in that part. So it's not as if he's wearing his inanimate sword as armor; he's restoring an animate part of himself.

Still, if your "only works on non-living things" theory is correct, I wonder how that sword would work on Unohana's shikai or even Mayuri's bankai. Do those even count as living?

And you know what really confused me? In one of the movies, you see Kira striking repeatedly at a cliff to make it collapse. If he does, in fact, double the weight of anything his sword touches, shouldn't it just double the weight of the earth? :s Maybe it just applies to a certain area he touches. How specified that is may be up to debate.

Another thing to think about: can he double the weight of your arm if his sword just hits your sleeves? Or would it double the weight of the shirt or the sleeves themselves? I don't know, it's such a strange ability. It seems so overpowered at times but I need more information before I can make a real conclusion on its effectiveness.

FYI, Komamura wouldn't lose if he's smart enough to stick to his shikai and do an overhand chop. That way, when Kira blocks the attack (I'm assuming it's a fairly quick strike) he doubles it's weight, it would just crush him. :p

Josear XIII
June 13, 2009, 02:27 PM
FYI, Komamura wouldn't lose if he's smart enough to stick to his shikai and do an overhand chop. That way, when Kira blocks the attack (I'm assuming it's a fairly quick strike) he doubles it's weight, it would just crush him. :p

And here i was underestimating the Doggy captain :P XD

But the reason i was saying this is because in another thread we got to Kira's shikai and the result was this when i pointed that his shikai was that weak that if a Shinigame were skilled enough could just drop his sword and kick his ass with kidoh or Hakudo but this was the answer gave it to me.


Kira's shikai will double the weight of ANYTHING it hits. That means that if he hits any bodypart it will also get its weight doubled. That would mean not just a swordfighter would be rendered weaponless very fast but shunpo and hand to hand combat users would eventually be incapable of moving.

EDIT:

Well by the mouth of our good kira it seem ALL!!! that he touches gets double weighted even if still dont believe it.


20
Kira: Excellent reactions!
Rangiku: What are you...?!
Kira: Just now... // How many times did you block it? / My blade.
Rangiku: Huh?

21
Rangiku: !
Kira: Doubling the weight of all that it strikes. // A second hit redoubles that weight. / A third doubles it yet again. // And thus...

22
Kira: The opponent, unable to bear this increased weight, will inevitably... // ...prostrate themselves upon the ground... / ...thrusting their head out as though apologising. // Thus the name... // "Wabisuke". [Apologiser] // You blocked Wabisuke's strikes... / ...a total of seven times just now. // If your blade originally weighed, say, 0.8 kilograms, / then multiplied by two to the power of seven, it is now 102.4 kilograms. // Not the kind of weight... // ...that can be carried about too easily.
Rangiku: ...So what? // If I can't carry it about... // ...then I'll just have to not hold it at all! // (Gin......)

Tonguen_yomom
June 13, 2009, 05:20 PM
Well, I think Kira was just making a generalization about his powers. I doubt he actually meant EVERYTHING.

Think about it: If Kira just starts waving his zanpakuto around, would the air around him get heavier? What if he (for some reason.....let's say.....it killed his mother) starts slashing at the ocean? Would that get heavier? I say no. Because you can't determine where those things end and thus he would either have to make all of it heavier (which would make him a god...well, he's already a god...you know what I mean) or make none of it heavier.

Chaoswind
June 13, 2009, 06:59 PM
I go with the area of effect in that case

Tsukisama
June 13, 2009, 11:48 PM
Well, I think Kira was just making a generalization about his powers. I doubt he actually meant EVERYTHING.

Think about it: If Kira just starts waving his zanpakuto around, would the air around him get heavier? What if he (for some reason.....let's say.....it killed his mother) starts slashing at the ocean? Would that get heavier? I say no. Because you can't determine where those things end and thus he would either have to make all of it heavier (which would make him a god...well, he's already a god...you know what I mean) or make none of it heavier.

I'm thinking that there is likely some will factor involved in this, i.e., Kira has to have the intention of striking for the object to double. This seems to be the case if you consider other special effect zanpakutou powers like Zommari's Bruheria's Amor. He shoots out his Amor spell and it does just hit the air molecules in between his target; it goes for the target.

(The most likely reason for Wabisuke not affecting the air is that Kubo hasn't put that much thought into it and has just assumed that we would accept it, but I'm trying to give an in-universe response. :amuse)

It seems perfectly understandable to me that Matsumoto could win over Kira because of the powers of her Haineko. If he did not know the nature of her zanpakutou just as she didn't know the nature of his, she could have disposed of him quickly. Matsumoto is also a lieutenant, and we shouldn't assume that she is weak. Obviously, if she defeated Kira, then she must have the skills to do so.

zerocooldx
June 14, 2009, 05:37 AM
Kira is what you would call a situational fighter, at close range he really seems almost unbeatable. But if his opponent can keep some distance between himself and Kira. Then he is just as likely to get completely dominated, like he did for first part of his fight with Avirama. But of course Wabisuke's ability is also somewhat unexplained, like how long its effect lasts? Or how far does its ability span out? All i can say is that Kubo needs to do a little bit of a better job with explaining some Zanpaktou's abilities.

conn-man
June 14, 2009, 12:49 PM
i was always under the impression that it was only metal things

Tonguen_yomom
June 14, 2009, 01:18 PM
Nah, if it were only metal things, he'd say so. Kira's not one to bluff like that. He also mentioned that thing about increasing the weight of his opponent's head until he bowed down in apology. Which gives me an idea: remember how Kira killed that bird guy? Imagine if instead of pulling the blade up, when he cradled his opponent's head in the crook of his sword, the weight doubles and the opponent cuts his own head off...that would be so cruel.....:D

Mifune_Taichou
June 14, 2009, 03:09 PM
See all this makes you wonder-wth would happen if/when he gets bankai:blink

His sword seems overpowered as hell, even though he himself isnt that good which makes it about even. I mean he is very talanted at kido and can shunpo, but if he say fought Ishida he would be booooned. He doesnt have the skills to compensate for his zanpakutoh's deficencies-in this case he'd need an epic shunpo.

As for its actuall ability id say the reason it doesnt apply to say the air around him is that it requires an element of mental activation-for example he had already struck Rangiku's sword but she didnt feel the effects until he explained his power-either there is a time delay or he can just make it happen when he wants to.

Eddy01741
June 14, 2009, 07:32 PM
Where are you getting "even though he himself isn't that good"? He's been shown to be a pretty proficient shinigami, as you said, good all around stats for zanjutsu, kido, and shunpo. Plus, he fights smart, as shown in the avirama battle.

Anyways, of course he'd get owned by Ishida. Ishida isii like the perfect counter for Kira. Ranged, non physical combat. Oh, plus Ishida has his equivelent of shunpo (the puppet legs thing that let him move even when paralyzed by Mayuri's shikai) and all. So you can't expect a guy who uses an energy bow, with all energy based arrows, who is fast, to be defeated by Kira, since then Kira's only chance would be to strike Ishida up close, but that ain't happening since Ishida is fast.

Josear XIII
June 15, 2009, 10:33 AM
Ok, you all are missing the point of this thread, KIRA' SHIKAI, im wandering what you think about the matter, but you are talking about kira in different combat situations. I just pointed those because i wanted to show the battles where he actually use Wabizuke(I Should change the Thread's name, in fact im gonna do it).

PLEASE FROM THIS POINT ONWARD LETS TALK ABOUT WABIZUKE, NOT KIRA I WANT TO CLARIFY THE POINT THAT ITS EFFECT CANT DOUBLE THE WEIGHT OF EVERYTHING, BUT JUST ANYTHING AND NOT ANYONE.



Nah, if it were only metal things, he'd say so. Kira's not one to bluff like that. He also mentioned that thing about increasing the weight of his opponent's head until he bowed down in apology. Which gives me an idea: remember how Kira killed that bird guy? Imagine if instead of pulling the blade up, when he cradled his opponent's head in the crook of his sword, the weight doubles and the opponent cuts his own head off...that would be so cruel.....:D

Kira never talked about increasing the weight of someone's head, he just explained that when the affected could not stand the great weight imposed on him it would bow down and it would look like its apologizing (coz bow oneself down is considered as an apology or surrendering signal).

For me, as a state, WABIZUKE CANT DOUBLE THE WEIGHT OF LIVING BEINGS just objects and etc

Tonguen_yomom
June 15, 2009, 02:34 PM
Kira never talked about increasing the weight of someone's head, he just explained that when the affected could not stand the great weight imposed on him it would bow down and it would look like its apologizing (coz bow oneself down is considered as an apology or surrendering signal).

I was assuming that increasing the weight of someone's head/body would be the reason he would bow down. Why else would the opponent bow his head down if Kira could only double the weight of his sword?

You know, I wonder what would happen if Kira just went crazy with his sword and started hitting something like 1000 times. That would be 2^1000, which would make it heavier than...the universe.

ryanzokuken
June 15, 2009, 07:04 PM
I was assuming that increasing the weight of someone's head/body would be the reason he would bow down. Why else would the opponent bow his head down if Kira could only double the weight of his sword?


because, you hold your sword in front of you, and when it dropped so heavily to the ground, unless you just let go of it completely, it would pull you down and forward, as if bowing.

Josear XIII
June 16, 2009, 07:29 AM
You know, I wonder what would happen if Kira just went crazy with his sword and started hitting something like 1000 times. That would be 2^1000, which would make it heavier than...the universe.

It would be very possible XD but it would be worst since each strike doubles the double that it was inflicted, so in the first strike it would be the double of that and so on....

Now that makes me wonder, if kira have to sustain with his reiryoku the effect or there is a limit of how much he can hit, also, can he strike multiple targets that are apart form each other? like i hit a shinigami sword here and the other hollow sword there and the two gets the effect.

Ozehro
June 16, 2009, 07:50 AM
If I understand right effectiveness of kido depends on reiatsu just
like with sword fighting. the one with high reiatsu cuts through,
in otherwords the one with high reiatsu breaks through kido.
so I don't think kira's sword trick will work on everyone, especially not the
captains.

Josear XIII
June 16, 2009, 08:19 AM
I know what you mean, and that is true.

but yet again my wonders are if people support if wabizuke can or not work in living beings. At a time a lot of people support kira as one of the best VC since he owns a supposedly Haxed Shikai, stating that it can double the weight of everything including living beings. If so, i wish they would tell me the reasons behind this.

For now i care not if he can cut or not, wabizuke hits, and instantaneously something gets its weight doubled. Thats a fact. Now, Can it double the weight of a person?

I highly discourage this fact since it would be something even better than most of shikai or bankai, so i stick to the effect that it only can double the weight of palpable and nonliving objects.

THM Nindo
June 16, 2009, 11:01 AM
I always disliked that sword, because his power is too damn strong.
Seriously, you could give that sword to Hanataro and he would jump to Vice-Captain because of its power.

Simply, Kira is not good, his sword does everything for him.
He just has to avoid being hit, and give one or two hit on his opponent.

Even more a Hax than Soi Fong's Suzumebachi. :darn

Aikidoka
June 16, 2009, 01:48 PM
Wabisuke isn't "Hax", Kira's opponents are just stupid.

Avirama had Kira cornered. All he had to do was keep shooting those feathers, throw a Cero here and there. Not walk over to Kira, stand there, and look to see if he's dead.

A lot of the Bleach villains are like this. When Barragan released he should've just breathed a few times. Not chase Omaeda around when he knew Soi Fon was preparing some sort of trump card.

Halibel. Fail. She just stood there and let herself be frozen.

Say Kira went up against that 7th division 4th seat that fought Uryu back in SS. All the guy has to do is release, throw a bunch of blades at Kira. Sooner or later one of them will hit Kira, he'll be hurt. Repeat.

You might argue that Kira never tells an opponent his weapon power so they could be tricked, but is going in and fighting close combat even necessary? If you have long-range attacks, just use them and play it safe. That's what any smart opponent would do, and against those, Kira wouldn't stand a chance.

Wabisuke's power is not unfair or cheap. There are so many weaknesses you could exploit against it. It's just that bad writing and Shonen villains make Wabisuke out to be cheap. That's all.

Josear XIII
June 16, 2009, 03:53 PM
NOT KIRA NOOOO i dont care about kira, Wabizuke is what this thread is about, now im suffering what other users suffers when people got away of their thread, i should make this a Poll thread dammit!


Wabisuke's power is not unfair or cheap. There are so many weaknesses you could exploit against it. It's just that bad writing and Shonen villains make Wabisuke out to be cheap. That's all.

Exactly in this point im interested but what about what you think of wabizuke, it can double the weight of anything or just the weight of non-living palpable objects?

kkck
June 16, 2009, 04:12 PM
NOT KIRA NOOOO i dont care about kira, Wabizuke is what this thread is about, now im suffering what other users suffers when people got away of their thread, i should make this a Poll thread dammit!



Exactly in this point im interested but what about what you think of wabizuke, it can double the weight of anything or just the weight of non-living palpable objects?

I think wabsuke can doubke the weight of ANYTHING it touches as long as it can be touched(so not air or liquids here). For gasses and liquids, it might just work as on the molecules and partcles it touches directly but that would be a longshot and overall useless.

Also, is it really worth it to dscuss wabisuke and not kira? A zampakuto is only as good as the guy wh uses it so leaving kra out of this is like leaving out half of wabisuke....

Tsukisama
June 16, 2009, 04:24 PM
Also, is it really worth it to dscuss wabisuke and not kira? A zampakuto is only as good as the guy wh uses it so leaving kra out of this is like leaving out half of wabisuke....

I think it is a useful discussion. Zanpakutou mechanics are an interesting subject worth some debate. The thread is about Wabisuke, and that is worth something. I suppose it wouldn't hurt for discussion of Kira should use Wabisuke in battle to included, but the main focus of this thread should remain on the sword and not the shinigami.

Concerning the asked question about this zanpakutou, I think your analysis of its functions is pretty good. Avirama's wings were subject to Kira's effect, and clearly Avirama was alive at the time. So, it works on living things.

It doesn't seem to work on the surrounding medium (i.e., air, etc.), but if it does, it probably just affects the individual molecules, which are unbounded in gases and loosely bonded together in liquids.

Josear XIII
June 16, 2009, 04:54 PM
But yet again, avirama was in released state and i count a arrancar release as a arrancar covered into his zanpakutoh so i dont see avirama's wings as a living part of avirama but as it zanpakutoh itself, or his power sealed.

And it leaps the hole between matsumoto vs kira, where matsu never suffered the effects of wabizuke on her body but in her sword only, we saw matsumoto leave the battle area without a scratch so if wabizuke were able to weight matsumoto then she should not have won so what about that, he was near enough and he is a good well balanced shinigami (not talking about the battle itself but the fact that it was nearly impossible that kira could not get close enough to land at least one hit on matsu) Thats why i think there is no reason of why wabizuke double th weight of living beings

kkck
June 16, 2009, 05:01 PM
But yet again, avirama was in released state and i count a arrancar release as a arrancar covered into his zanpakutoh so i dont see avirama's wings as a living part of avirama but as it zanpakutoh itself, or his power sealed.

And it leaps the hole between matsumoto vs kira, where matsu never suffered the effects of wabizuke on her body but in her sword only, we saw matsumoto leave the battle area without a scratch so if wabizuke were able to weight matsumoto then she should not have won so what about that, he was near enough and he is a good well balanced shinigami (not talking about the battle itself but the fact that it was nearly impossible that kira could not get close enough to land at least one hit on matsu) Thats why i think there is no reason of why wabizuke double th weight of living beings

Well, matsumoto´s zampakuto is a different object from matsumoto so there is no reason for matsumoto to be affected. Now, if you think the cover an arrancars gains from resurreccion is not alive, then that´s just your opinion, but I think they are very well alive. I also want to note that only abirama´s wings got heavier, not the entire body. I guess that shows ho strict wabzuke is on its effect, seeming as it not affects connected objects but just the part of the whole that it hs drectly.

Tsukisama
June 16, 2009, 05:04 PM
But yet again, avirama was in released state and i count a arrancar release as a arrancar covered into his zanpakutoh so i dont see avirama's wings as a living part of avirama but as it zanpakutoh itself, or his power sealed.

A hollow's resurrecion reverts the arrancar back to its original form (or at least that is how it was originally explained). Thus, the form in which we saw Avirama was Avirama. It wasn't something separate but an actual part of him. Beyond that, even some shinigami's zanpakutou seem to have living releases like Unohana's shikai and Mayuri's bankai.


And it leaps the hole between matsumoto vs kira, where matsu never suffered the effects of wabizuke on her body but in her sword only, we saw matsumoto leave the battle area without a scratch so if wabizuke were able to weight matsumoto then she should not have won so what about that, he was near enough and he is a good well balanced shinigami (not talking about the battle itself but the fact that it was nearly impossible that kira could not get close enough to land at least one hit on matsu) Thats why i think there is no reason of why wabizuke double th weight of living beings

This comes down to the nature of the fight and the fighters themselves. There is no reason to suggest that Matsumoto could not have won the fight on her own skill. All that can be analyzed is the effects of the zanpakutou in question. Wabisuke requires physical contact, and if Matsumoto never got hit by Kira (and she didn't seem to have any injuries on her person), then she didn't get hit and she won (which she did).

If you really want to get into a discussion of the combatants (about which you have already established this thread is not), then you would have to take into account Matsumoto's fighting style. She is not a close-range fighter due to the nature of her zanpakutou. After Kira explained his zanpakutou, she seemed fairly confident that she could counter given the nature of zanpakutou. She has experience too, and she should be capable enough to keep her distance IMO, but again we are getting away from the discussion of the zanpakutou.

Josear XIII
June 16, 2009, 06:48 PM
i get your point, i stated those fighting points as a fair example of what you have said about how good is matsumoto in fights so we could get to the point where Wabizuke was useless because it couldnt double weight living being, from which matsumoto gained her confidence. remember she smiled because her zampakutoh would not get affected after shikai, not because she was stronger or something. (personaly i find matsumoto as one of the weakest VC in the whole series)

Thats the point i want to make, the confidence shown by matsumoto is from someone who gained the knowledge of wabizuke being useless on her zanpakutoh the only thing he could double weight.

We are stating then that Wabizuke, could have beat not just avirama, but Po, the Ballerina guy, and even tigres topes, no one could beat Wabizuke in the hands of a well trained shinigami, which make it HAX and thats why this thread started. because i dont think its that haxed, I dont really think the meaning behind wabizuke is to double weight everything because, GOD SAVE US if kubo was thinking that, what kind of opponent could face wabizuke.

Of course we will never know till kubo decide to give a clearer example of this or he states it. So i just want to know if everyone agrees on the fact that Wabizuke can double weight everything that cross into its path.

Tsukisama
June 16, 2009, 09:29 PM
@Josear XIII It seems the problem you have is in believing how "hax" Wabisuke is. Well, there are plenty of hax abilities in Bleach, and the only reason that the fights in Bleach ever work when one of the combatants has a hax ability is specifically because Kubo always matches the hax ability with a counter for it.

For Kira's fights, he fought Avirama, who can fly and fight from long-distance. If he could fight at close-range against Avirama, Kira could make short work of him, and that is exactly what happened.

For another example, Zommari's Amor was so hax that it would have given him the upperhand against majority of opponents in Bleach. How did Kubo counter this unbelievably hax ability? He did it by matching him against a fighter who could attack with too many objects for Zommari to control: Byakuya. Had Zommari faced Kenpachi or someone else in HM, Zommari would have won due to the nature of his hax ability, but obviously that did not occur.

Another example would be Soi Fon's shikai. It kills in two strikes. That is incredibly hax. Who have all of Soi Fon's opponents been? They have all been opponents that she couldn't catch and thus could not rely on her hax ability (with the exception of Ggio Vega, but she in the end was just testing the power of the arrancar :eyeroll).

I could go on with these hax abilities and counters (Szayel's hax abilities countered by Mayuri's depraved genius, Halibel's control of all water that would have seemed a lot more hax had it not been for Hitsugaya's equally hax dominance of ice/water, etc.), but the picture is clear. Although in theory these hax powers could dominate a lot of powerful opponents given the right circumstances, Kubo is not going to devote much (if any) page time for a battle where the hax ability guaranteed victory. Thus, Kira didn't face any of the other fraccion except the one that might actually pose him a problem.

Ozehro
June 16, 2009, 10:44 PM
A hollow's resurrecion reverts the arrancar back to its original form (or at least that is how it was originally explained). Thus, the form in which we saw Avirama was Avirama. It wasn't something separate but an actual part of him. Beyond that, even some shinigami's zanpakutou seem to have living releases like Unohana's shikai and Mayuri's bankai.
...............


correction an arrancar's released form is it's true hybrid state.
it's not going back to it's hollow form otherwise we would have seen grimmjow become a full panther. instead he became a hybrid creature...

anyway again Wabisuke is kido based so until kira has strong reiatsu
I doubt he can influence captains an espada with it. as for whether it effects living things..I'm not sure. technically zanpakutou isn't metal and
is formed from the reiatsu/reishi of a living shinigami... so I guess that means
wabisuke can increase the weight of things made of reiatsu/reishi. but
I doubt it would work on non reiatsu/reishi material... my basis is that wabisuke
is kido based thus it manipulates reiatsu/reishi. (material made of rei something) lol.

BleachOD
June 16, 2009, 11:43 PM
I am with you dawg! Kira has the most useless zanpakuto ever. (Matsu's is tied) He has to always face Steele opponents or his ass it out. Arrancars do wear their powers. That's the only difference they have with Shinigami. They combine with their sword and they change forms. It's obvious to me that is the so they can better fight and still be different. Shingami sword change
Avirama was metal. Kira won only because he was metal.

If Kira could double the weight of anything Matsu wouldn't have won. He has to get METAL opponents or he's fail. That's why I think he and Matsu have the suckiest ones ever!

kkck
June 17, 2009, 07:56 AM
I am with you dawg! Kira has the most useless zanpakuto ever. (Matsu's is tied) He has to always face Steele opponents or his ass it out. Arrancars do wear their powers. That's the only difference they have with Shinigami. They combine with their sword and they change forms. It's obvious to me that is the so they can better fight and still be different. Shingami sword change
Avirama was metal. Kira won only because he was metal.

If Kira could double the weight of anything Matsu wouldn't have won. He has to get METAL opponents or he's fail. That's why I think he and Matsu have the suckiest ones ever!

Proof that a resurreccion limb is very well alive:
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/258/11/

BleachOD
June 17, 2009, 09:55 AM
Proof that a resurreccion limb is very well alive:
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/258/11/

Dude your zanpaktou is alive.

Doesn't Hitsu wear his the same way when he wears that ugly ass bankai. With Chicken Feet....

So how is that any different? Um why are you showing me that?

I don't get it...:blink

kkck
June 17, 2009, 10:38 AM
Dude your zanpaktou is alive.

Doesn't Hitsu wear his the same way when he wears that ugly ass bankai. With Chicken Feet....

So how is that any different? Um why are you showing me that?

I don't get it...:blink

How can you say its the same? A resurreccion returns the an arrancar to his original hollow form, while what hitsu does is get himself covered in ice. I can't even begin to imagine how the two can be even remotely similar. Now, another translation(can be found in MH):

Frame 2
Chiru: We can only return that appearance to human form when we return our powers to sword form.
Changing our appearance without returning it to sword form is like cutting off your own arm.
The point of this is that the limbs you gain from using resurreccion are as real and alive as the ones you had before releasing. When arrancar release, they gain actual body parts. Again, I cannot even begin to imagine how this is even remotely similar to what hitsugaya does, its preposterous.

Tsukisama
June 17, 2009, 11:33 AM
correction an arrancar's released form is it's true hybrid state.
it's not going back to it's hollow form otherwise we would have seen grimmjow become a full panther. instead he became a hybrid creature...

I am sorry if the wording was unclear, but I am referring to the explanation of an arrancar's ressurrection given here (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/204/10/) and punctuated here (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/204/11/). Arrancar seal their powers within their zanpakutou. When they release, they resume their true form (by "original" I meant "unsealed"). This is their true and original form, as they have evolved from regular hollow into arrancar. Grimmjow didn't become a full panther because he has evolved past that stage. His true form is his released form and no longer the panther form he had as a mere menos grande.

We have no reason to suspect also that kidou-based zanpakutou powers do not affect the real world. When Rukia used her Tsugi no Mai (the first dance technique of her shikai) in the real world against D-roy, the air and ground froze. It wasn't a world filled with reishi. So, Wabisuke's powers should not be thought as limited to affecting only reishi.

Josear XIII
June 17, 2009, 12:08 PM
This is their true and original form, as they have evolved from regular hollow into arrancar. Grimmjow didn't become a full panther because he has evolved past that stage. His true form is his released form and no longer the panther form he had as a mere menos grande.

Correction, a menos grande is a gillian, Grimmjow's last form as a hollow was an adjucha. Which make true the hybridian state theory.

But now in the matter grimmjow in those pages was talking in a simbolic way since was the first time a resurrection was presented to public. The more accurate explanation was the one given by Thunder witch in the same link that KKCK gave:


Proof that a resurreccion limb is very well alive:
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/258/11/


But its not that their limbs are alive, she didnt said that, as you can figure, she is stating that the hollow itself all the living form is in the arrancar the other additions are the powers and abilities sealed in the sword, it really reminds to the captain of 3rd division in the fillers, in bankai state (not saying that is the same) But as thunder witch says, it may affect them directly but its not like that is part of the like flesh with flesh. At least thats what i think

kkck
June 17, 2009, 12:16 PM
Correction, a menos grande is a gillian, Grimmjow's last form as a hollow was an adjucha. Which make true the hybridian state theory.

Menos grande refers to all kinds of menos. Gillian,a djuca and vasto lorde are menos grande.



But its not that their limbs are alive, she didnt said that, as you can figure, she is stating that the hollow itself all the living form is in the arrancar the other additions are the powers and abilities sealed in the sword, it really reminds to the captain of 3rd division in the fillers, in bankai state (not saying that is the same) But as thunder witch says, it may affect them directly but its not like that is part of the like flesh with flesh. At least thats what i think

Ok, she did not specificaly said they were alive, she said ripping them of is the same as ripping of your own arm. How is that different. Unless you consider yourself to be alive but nor the parts you are made of, what you are saying makes no sense.

Tsukisama
June 17, 2009, 12:17 PM
Correction, a menos grande is a gillian, Grimmjow's last form as a hollow was an adjucha.


But now in the matter grimmjow in those pages was talking in a simbolic way since was the first time a resurrection was presented to public. The more accurate explanation was the one given by Thunder witch in the same link that KKCK gave:




But its not that their limbs are alive, she didnt said that, as you can figure, she is stating that the hollow itself all the living form is in the arrancar the other additions are the powers and abilities sealed in the sword, it really reminds to the captain of 3rd division in the fillers, in bankai state (not saying that is the same) But as thunder witch says, it may affect them directly but its not like that is part of the like flesh with flesh. At least thats what i think

I don't like saying "correction" because it sounds rather snarky, but I am correct in what I said concerning menos grande. Menos grande is a classification of hollow. Gillian is a type of menos, just as adjuchas and vasto lorde.

Secondly, what Cirruci said does not contradict what Edorad told Ikkaku. In fact, she said the same things. Both said that resurrecion unseals an arrancar's hollow powers, returning them to their true/unsealed form. Arrancar's released bodies are their bodies, not some exterior weapon separate from their actual bodies. Attacking their bodies in released form is still attacking their physical bodies. There is no distinction.

Josear XIII
June 17, 2009, 01:19 PM
Menos grande refers to all kinds of menos. Gillian,a djuca and vasto lorde are menos grande.

As far as i knew Menos grande was the only to Gillian menos as a pun joke because their are gigantic, The name that ground them all is "Menos", but the term "Menos Grande" is used to point Gillian class menos


Ok, she did not specificaly said they were alive, she said ripping them of is the same as ripping of your own arm. How is that different. Unless you consider yourself to be alive but nor the parts you are made of, what you are saying makes no sense.

As i said before, it can affect them directly but it doesnt mean is physically part of them, what im saying makes sense, but just if we look at it symbolically because a person who has something precious to himself or herself if you take it from him/her is like ripping a part of 'em. Like a medallion that your grandma gave you or something like those. Sorry for using this punny example but i had to. And as you said she stated "is the same as ripping of your own arm" i find this sentence as a comparison of the way it can affect them and not as if she was saying that you would be hurt because of it.

Sorry if i hardly explain myself, English is just my second language and i even in spanish i find hard to put all i want to say in a simple sentence.



I don't like saying "correction" because it sounds rather snarky, but I am correct in what I said concerning menos grande. Menos grande is a classification of hollow. Gillian is a type of menos, just as adjuchas and vasto lorde.

Sorry, it was not my intention.

I will say the same told KKCk The name that ground them all is "Menos", but the term "Menos Grande" is used to point Gillian class menos.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/48/08/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/48/09/

rukia is pointing this hollow as "menos grande" but she states that menos is a hollow born from what we know.

-Wikipedia: States the whole class as just Menos
-Bleach wiki (sorry if you dont trust entirely this source): States that Gillian class are Also called menos grande.
http://bleach.wikia.com/wiki/Hollow




Secondly, what Cirruci said does not contradict what Edorad told Ikkaku. In fact, she said the same things. Both said that resurrecion unseals an arrancar's hollow powers, returning them to their true/unsealed form. Arrancar's released bodies are their bodies, not some exterior weapon separate from their actual bodies. Attacking their bodies in released form is still attacking their physical bodies. There is no distinction.

I did not said that Cirruci contradicted Edorad i just said that Grimmjow and edorad say the same but just in a more simbolic way. Because the resurreccion bring the essence of the offensive powers and abilities that they used to have as Hollows. (In some way we look like we are going WAAAAY of the thread but in another way of seeing it this is for the sake of the thread XD What do you think)

kkck
June 17, 2009, 08:07 PM
As i said before, it can affect them directly but it doesnt mean is physically part of them, what im saying makes sense, but just if we look at it symbolically because a person who has something precious to himself or herself if you take it from him/her is like ripping a part of 'em. Like a medallion that your grandma gave you or something like those. Sorry for using this punny example but i had to. And as you said she stated "is the same as ripping of your own arm" i find this sentence as a comparison of the way it can affect them and not as if she was saying that you would be hurt because of it.

Sorry if i hardly explain myself, English is just my second language and i even in spanish i find hard to put all i want to say in a simple sentence.

Pero si las partes que se ganan por una resurreccion no son verdaderamente una parte del cuerpo del arrancar, entonces la analogia que cirucci uso es simple y llanamente una estupides porque no tendria nada que ver con la realidad. En todo caso, si te niegas a creer o empiezas a distorcionar cosas que fuentes confiables en la serie dicen, realmente no hay nada que pueda hacer. Ya es cosa tuya. Realmente no hay un motivo para asumir que lo que dicen los arrancar sobre la resurreccion es simbolica....El espanol es mi primer idioma tambien....

menos grande refers to menos in general, it has never been said menos grande refers specifically to gillian. The term menos grande isn't really used much anyways so I doubt this is much of a deal anyways....

Something I found very interesting about wabizuke is its reversed blade. At first I did not get it but after seeing it used against abirama I felt the purpose of it was too cruel. It is still kinda inconvenient though, a sword than can only cut to decapitate has more limited uses. I think it would be better if the sword had a double blade...

Forever_Melody
June 17, 2009, 09:05 PM
Actually Menos is the general term used for Gillian, Adjuchas and Vasto Lorde. Menos Grande was only used to describe a Gillian(i.e. those the one that attacked Hueco Mundo) so I wouldn't really bother with such semantics.

Random observation, but I always assuemd Wabisuke doubled the weight of everything it touched. In that sense, when Kira put his blade under Abirama's neck, it doubled the weight of his head, making it so he'd kill himself(falling on the sharp edge of the blade). I found that cooler than the idea that Kira just yanked the head off :blink

kkck
June 17, 2009, 09:33 PM
Actually Menos is the general term used for Gillian, Adjuchas and Vasto Lorde. Menos Grande was only used to describe a Gillian(i.e. those the one that attacked Hueco Mundo) so I wouldn't really bother with such semantics.

Random observation, but I always assuemd Wabisuke doubled the weight of everything it touched. In that sense, when Kira put his blade under Abirama's neck, it doubled the weight of his head, making it so he'd kill himself(falling on the sharp edge of the blade). I found that cooler than the idea that Kira just yanked the head off :blink

Interesting idea, I had not thought of that. Or maybe even keeping constant contact with the sword just keep increasing the weight of the head indefinitely. Thats way too cruel (and cool) for kira lol.

Forever_Melody
June 17, 2009, 09:47 PM
Hmm if it kept contact I think it'd be a bit overpowered lol :p I'm guessing initial contact does something, but after it doesn't do anything anymore, hence the need ot repeatedly strike. If not, Kira could've simply kept his blade a few seconds on each of Abirama's wings rather than strike them 4 times each.

Tonguen_yomom
June 17, 2009, 09:47 PM
Actually Menos is the general term used for Gillian, Adjuchas and Vasto Lorde. Menos Grande was only used to describe a Gillian(i.e. those the one that attacked Hueco Mundo) so I wouldn't really bother with such semantics.

Random observation, but I always assuemd Wabisuke doubled the weight of everything it touched. In that sense, when Kira put his blade under Abirama's neck, it doubled the weight of his head, making it so he'd kill himself(falling on the sharp edge of the blade). I found that cooler than the idea that Kira just yanked the head off :blink

First page, tenth post. :tem I guess we have the same twisted imagination. :D

Maybe that doubling effect only applies to the dull side? After all, what's the point of doubling something's weight if he can already cut it?

Ozehro
June 17, 2009, 10:24 PM
I am sorry if the wording was unclear, but I am referring to the explanation of an arrancar's ressurrection given here (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/204/10/) and punctuated here (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/204/11/). Arrancar seal their powers within their zanpakutou. When they release, they resume their true form (by "original" I meant "unsealed"). This is their true and original form, as they have evolved from regular hollow into arrancar. Grimmjow didn't become a full panther because he has evolved past that stage. His true form is his released form and no longer the panther form he had as a mere menos grande.

We have no reason to suspect also that kidou-based zanpakutou powers do not affect the real world. When Rukia used her Tsugi no Mai (the first dance technique of her shikai) in the real world against D-roy, the air and ground froze. It wasn't a world filled with reishi. So, Wabisuke's powers should not be thought as limited to affecting only reishi.

your link just supported me... it said it takes them to their
true form! now what could that mean? could it mean their hollow form
or their actual hybrid form? I'm gonna go with the later since that
makes more sense. when an arrancar releases he goes to his true hybrid
form. :darn you using the original form is more ambiguous.
but I agree once resureccion is their unsealed form. all the energy stored
in their zanpakutou is released..

besides none of that matters. Kira's blade is kido based thus it can manipulate reiatsu,
and since everything in hollows is made of reiatsu, his trick should work.
but with kido it seems quite obvious that if the opponent has stronger reiatsu
than the spell has very little effect.

kkck
June 17, 2009, 10:35 PM
your link just supported me... it said it takes them to their
true form! now what could that mean? could it mean their hollow form
or their actual hybrid form? I'm gonna go with the later since that
makes more sense. when an arrancar releases he goes to his true hybrid
form. :darn you using the original form is more ambiguous.
but I agree once resureccion is their unsealed form. all the energy stored
in their zanpakutou is released..

besides none of that matters. Kira's blade is kido based thus it can manipulate reiatsu,
and since everything in hollows is made of reiatsu, his trick should work.
but with kido it seems quite obvious that if the opponent has stronger reiatsu
than the spell has very little effect.
IMHO an arrancar is as much as an hybrid before resurreccion as he is after it. I could see the guys changing form after releasing, but changing specie sounds a little too much(not specie per say but you get my drift).

Ozehro
June 17, 2009, 11:26 PM
IMHO an arrancar is as much as an hybrid before resurreccion as he is after it. I could see the guys changing form after releasing, but changing specie sounds a little too much(not specie per say but you get my drift).

ofcourse. what I meant is that resureccion is their true hybrid form.
but yeah arrancar are hybrids sealed or not. its that when they are
sealed they are not using a large chunk of their power..

Josear XIII
June 18, 2009, 08:30 AM
Pero si las partes que se ganan por una resurreccion no son verdaderamente una parte del cuerpo del arrancar, entonces la analogia que cirucci uso es simple y llanamente una estupides porque no tendria nada que ver con la realidad. En todo caso, si te niegas a creer o empiezas a distorcionar cosas que fuentes confiables en la serie dicen, realmente no hay nada que pueda hacer. Ya es cosa tuya. Realmente no hay un motivo para asumir que lo que dicen los arrancar sobre la resurreccion es simbolica....El espanol es mi primer idioma tambien....[QUOTE=kkck;1407653]

HAHAHAHAHAHHAHA DIOS, me asombran he impactan tanto estas coincidencias del destino, quien diria que hablases español :P me deje llevar por la banderita, el otro dia encontre una francesa que hablaba español tb. En serio se me hace dificil explicar mis ideas, aun en mi primer idioma XD

Ok lo que pasa esque si recuerdas que estaba ayudando al sujeto aquel con lo del foro hemos teorizado tanto que hemos sacado lo que ya te habia dicho antes en el tema del foro, que son los rellenos para los plotholes. Por esto es que muchas de las cosas que dicen en la serie parecen expresar toda una idea, nunca las tomo con todo el sentido literal de lo que la oracion expresa ya que de por si puede haber un oculto que puede ser aclarado, puedo apostar a que si le plantearamos esto a Kubo tite, el tardaria poco mas de un rato antes de respondernos. No es que las altere sino que busco llenar el vacio que creo que existe alli (no voy a decir que hay un vacio real por que no conozco a kubo ni nada, aunque si conozco a alguien que lo conoce pero claro el no quiere comunicarme con el T-T)

[QUOTE=kkck;1407653]menos grande refers to menos in general, it has never been said menos grande refers specifically to gillian. The term menos grande isn't really used much anyways so I doubt this is much of a deal anyways....

In this part im 100% sure that the series says that menos grande is for a Gillian and not for the whole class of menos

Eddy01741
June 18, 2009, 12:47 PM
Well, I don't have the actual chapter to back it up, and don't have the time to look for it now. But since i reread pretty much all of bleach yestarday, I remember clearly what it said.

Hitsugaya states that most times when saying menos grande, they are referring to gillian.

That does not take away from the fact however, that Adjuchas and VL are also menos grande.

Menos=Shortened way of saying Menos Grande. Menos Grande refers to Gillian, Adjuchas, and VL, but is often used as a colloquial term for Gillian.

Chaoswind
June 18, 2009, 04:11 PM
Ways Menos have been Called


Gillian = Menos Grande
Adjucas = Adjuca
Vastrolord = Vastrolord

The only menos class that has EVER been called Menos Grande are the GIllians, and as an interesting FACT they are the only BIG Menos...

Menos is most likely the class, and neither Adjucas nor Vastros have ever been called anything else than Adjuca and Vastro... is possible to assume that Menos Hollows is the Class, and Gillian, Adjuca and Vastro are the subclasses of Menos...

To be fair at this point BOTH ways of calling them could be correct, but most of the evidence seems to point that Menos Grande are only the Gillian Class menos.

Nevertheless is pointless to argue when neither side has enough evidence, but that doesn't change the fact that one side has more evidence than the other.

Eddy01741
June 18, 2009, 11:35 PM
http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/000107632/15.jpg

See what Hitsu says: "In Soul Society, these are the "Menos" that are generally referred to in textbooks."

Hitsu says Menos, not Menos Grande there. Menos is often a colloquial term for Gillian, but they actual encompass Gillian, Adjuchas, and VL. And Menos is just a shortened way of saying Menos Grande.

Plus, when have we seen any reference to a hollow using the full term Menos Grande, IIRC, two times. When Ichigo fought that Gillian back in the KT arc days, and when Aizen used negaccion to escape SS. I'd say that Menos=Menos Grande, and Menos=Colloquial term for Gillian, but that it also encompasses Adjuchas and VL.

Josear XIII
June 19, 2009, 07:35 AM
Welll if its the coloquial form why does every site of info about belach, including wikipedia, refer to em as Menos and note menos Grande, pointing after, that they are colloquially called Menos. in wikipedia they not even mention the "Grande". And Ok wikipedia is not god, i know that but i did knew that Shinigami read about em in text book because i even used chapter 48 to illustrate:

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/48/08/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/48/09/

She point directly that that Great hollow she has only seen it in textbook, "the Great Hollow, Menos Grande" she is only referring to the gillian, coz before saying that line, she speaked of the Menos class alone, She would have said something like

Menos Grande, ara blablablabla....

But instead she first name the class and then she does the statement that point gillians as menos grande

Eddy01741
June 19, 2009, 11:47 AM
Thank you for citing my own example (when Ichigo fought the gillian back in KT days). What other evidence do you have to suggest that Menos Grande isn't the same as Menos?

The way I see it.

Menos Grande/Menos is a colloquial term for Gillian.
Menos is a shortened and therefore colloquial term for Menos Grande.

Plus, I don't see why this argument is even important. This all started when you disagreed with Kkck about Menos vs. Menos Grande. We have seen minimal evidence to suggest it, (we havn't seen a character say menos grande in a while anyways, you'd expect Kubo to bring it up more if it was actually relevant).

In conclusion:

Menos is colloquial for Gillian, Menos could or could not be colloquial for Menos Grande, you don't think it is, I do think it is. Not enough evidence to determine which opinion is right, end of argument.

Also, this is also just pretty unimportant to the manga itself. I could care less if Menos Grande=Gillian, or whether Menos=Menos Grande.

This discussion is getting off-topic on this menos thing; so, I am not going to further it by posting myself. Any further discussion on this should be taken to another thread. I will, however, offer one last opinion on the matter.

I agree with Eddy. There has never been made in the manga an explicit distinction between 'menos' and 'menos grande.' The term 'menos grande' has only been used in the beginning of the manga, at which point the only menos that were seen were gillian. Any fan-made source like a wiki (especially Bleach wiki) is subject to the interpretation of the reader. The correct thing a wiki can and should point out that the term 'menos grande' has only ever been seen used to refer to a gillian-class menos, but there is no explicit differentiation made between the two terms. What is more likely (and a simpler explanation) IMO that the term is just being shortened to 'menos' for facility of speech, but there is no proof either way on the matter, and given how minute this detail is, it likely won't be addressed unless Kubo decides to focus on it in a data book or is asked in an interview.

Sorry, Eddy, for hijacking you post :sweatdrop

Onomatopoeia
June 19, 2009, 11:56 AM
Erm...I haven't read through the whole thread but what exactly does this have to do with Wabisuke?

If you want to argue this why don't you make another thread all-together?

juice88
June 19, 2009, 12:02 PM
back on topic with the thread wabisuke according to kira can double living things weight as well because thats why he says it means to bow down because whoever he cuts will eventually bow down and then he can decapitate them if it didnt make living things bow down it would be no point of it being shaped that way

Josear XIII
June 19, 2009, 12:15 PM
But as i see it it just can double the weight of non living palpable things not whoever but whatever, since all that he have reached had been non living things


Erm...I haven't read through the whole thread but what exactly does this have to do with Wabisuke?

If you want to argue this why don't you make another thread all-together?

That happens when you dont read the whole thread n.nU

@ Eddy

true enough, it does not matter at all in bleach but is important to stay clear on points, i didnt replicate your example, its question of logics in the manner of speaking, you can say something and by the logic of a persons, it can be twisted in a lot of way or well in a few. But we'll leave like that since i agree with you in the first part. But i stay in my points

Eddy01741
June 19, 2009, 12:55 PM
Erm...I haven't read through the whole thread but what exactly does this have to do with Wabisuke?

If you want to argue this why don't you make another thread all-together?
Well, I don't really want to argue, not a very important topic to argue about...

Anyhow, this is just the usual tangetial discussion, just like at the bleach spoiler thread. One person makes an opinion, backs it up with stuff we've seen before (eg. in a Halibel vs. Ichigonator thread, somebody uses the Hitsu vs. Halibel fight to gauge Halibel's power), then somebody else disagree's with that person's opinion on their "evidence" (to continue the last example, somebody else doesn't agree with how the first person thinks of the Hitsu vs. Halibel fight, and starts a counter-argument), and then there you go, tangent.

Happens all the time around here.

Anyways, @Juice88, Wabisuke wouldn't neccesarily have to hit living things to make the enemy bow down. Let's just assume that a Zanpakutou is not a living thing (even though tehcnically, it is the physical manifestation of the shinigami's soul, so it is living), if the zanpakutou is struck enough, the user of the zanpakutou cannot bear the weight, and they bow down, both physically and metaphorically. Physically as being the weight will make them let the sword fall weight them to the ground, forcing themselves to bend over/kneel down, or otherwise just let the sword go. Metaphorically as in it makes the enemy surrender as they no longer have a weapon to use.

Anyhow, I'll wait for further evidence (if Kubo gives us any, for all we know, after the winter war, the manga will be over, and Kira has already served his part in defeating Avirama) before judging what exactly Wabisuke does affect, as well as if it effects those stronger than him (like, if he were to fight Zaraki, would his doubling effect do anything to Zaraki).

Josear XIII
June 26, 2009, 10:10 AM
Well the thread cooled down but still i will bring some points into this again, i was talking to someone about this and in the end i came assuming this.

Wabizuke can only double weight palpable unanimated things no matter what they are, as i was saying before. This fact for me will never change. but i accepted that if the thing that got hit itself is part of the body of the affected it can double weight the person itself, what do i mean? let me explain:

-Wabizuke can hit someones nail, hair, or even bones, and get 'em double weighted. because they are part of the person but not are living beings themselves.

-Wabizuke can't hit flesh that belongs to a living being and get it weighted.

So for me that explain the fact that with abirama kira hit the plumes, plumes in a bird are the same as nails and bones, The belong and form part of the bird but they are not alive, do not take this statement literally you know what i mean -_-

kkck
June 26, 2009, 10:24 AM
But why exactly do you think it can't double the weight of living things? Even if you ignore the fact that abirama's wings were alive, all you get is that there is no evidence to support or negate your claim.

Josear XIII
June 26, 2009, 10:53 AM
Kira did pointed that he specifically hit his plumes not the parts pointed into this image as 1, 2, 3, 6 and 7 That have flesh but just the plumes which not:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/66/Underwing.svg

What im saying here is that if for example wabizuke were to wound you in the abdominal area (we know nobody wants to get hit with something of that shape) its safe to assume you will not gain more weight if he do not reach any bone.

So if he make just a cut in your arm, it will not get double weighted if he does not reach bones, as bones are part of the body but not a living part of it.

PS: Kkck did you get my pm?

kkck
June 26, 2009, 11:03 AM
Well, abirama did say that what got doubled weight was his wing though, ir at least that's what the translations here at MH say(also you see abirama not being able to hold the weight of his wings).

I did get the private message, its just that ATM I do not plan on posting on other forums. This one is already quite time consuming in a way lol. Sorry about not answering your message, I completely forgot to do it lol.

Josear XIII
June 27, 2009, 07:50 AM
Sorry for the late response, i dont own a pc and since MH was out for a time i couldnt reply yesterday.

Ok now on the thread again, he did say that he couldnt carry the weight of a wing, but thats because, the feathers are attached to it, But Kira himself (translations here, i dont read another place if its not from Cnet) said that he hit almost all the feathers of one of his wings at least 4 times, so they wouldnt go after that saying, i ca carry the weight of my feathers thata are attached to my wings, you gotta resume, saying wings but he did pointed that he only hit almost all the feathers in his wing

I'm searching here for a weakness into the effect, by proving that he cant weight parts that are itself alive, example if kira were to fight with an opponent which body was a jelly(like those crappy monster into rpg) he could never make even one part of 'em be double weighted but if it has spikes or something like that, he could double weight em.

Offtopic: do not worry i dont want you to join and be an instant member and the whole forum isnt even for thread of discussion but a game itself, and with just your opinion on the matter would be awesome, because you are very accurate in your critics, i know you must be in other forums, so i will really appreciate that you at least read the rules and check the forum skeleton to get your points, if you can post it in there, the adm will be very glad, i will tell him to not mind you as a frequent Member. There is no pressure to join or anything ^^ we are very aware of users situations

Eddy01741
June 27, 2009, 08:02 AM
Are you saying that Kira hit EVERY feather 4 times? I find that a hard feat to believe.... just look at how many feathers Avirama has...

EDIT: After reading the cnet translation that you referred to, I'm not sure what to believe...

I mean, I trust Cnet's translation, but... so many feathers, each with 4 strikes....

Josear XIII
June 27, 2009, 10:34 AM
Hey we can't blame kira for being too good at zanjutsu. I myself find hard to believe it, but i do know that cnet translations are accurate, and i have witnessed several times when he has pointed as a note things like "it really says this and this but i rather go with that" etc etc and lets remember that laws of time are not being applied into world of manga, that 2 or 1 panel showing the impact could be like 10 seconds or more, enough time for kira to hit it 4 times.

Like 1 strike while the wing was falling, and the other 3 when he was rising, because the wings are heavy so is a slow movement even if he can carry them Kira's wabizuke is like a feather in his hands against the weight of those wings.

I think there is plenty of time to land those hits, yet he says almost every feather which is hard to believe, but this is Bleach

kkck
June 27, 2009, 02:05 PM
It is true the c-net translation says it was the feathers which got heavier but for some reason all the other translations said it was the wing.....

Anyways, if we assume the c-net translation is the correct one, it would not make sense that kira actually hit every feather 4 times. Look at this image:
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/323/19/
In the image you can see one of kira's hits. There you can see that the sword came in contact with a considerable number of feathers with each hit, that would explain how he hit so many with just 4 hits.

Chaoswind
June 28, 2009, 12:26 AM
Coming from the deeps of hell just to point the obvious

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/323/19/

the translation there says wings, but only one of them was heavy >_>

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/323/17/

so is accurate to say that cnet translation is probably right, Kira hit the feathers not the wing itself, with in turn becomes evidence that his power doesn't work on everything...

even now is too early to judge, but even though Kira said wabisuke doubles the weight of all things, he seems to have only used it on his opponents weapons... with is a counter argument on itself...


This does in fact makes wabisuke less threatening, because he would had no chance fighting a naked enemy (Naked Arrancar rapes Kira in a Yaoi doujin?). :oh


Hey, we should make threads like this for all the swords that have gotten AT least a bit of attention (and are hax) because this discussion turned out to be pretty productive :tem


Shall we go with Yumichika next? or maybe Aizen shikai?

anyway is too late, so if I come back and no one has done them, I will take my time to do it :)

Eddy01741
June 28, 2009, 05:44 AM
Yeah, I do find it unusual that Avirama falls on his side rather than just falling down, suggesting that only one or two of the wings was absurdly heavy for him to fall like that.

Anyhow, what other hax shikai have gotten attention that we havn't discusssed? HIsagi's has already been discussed recently. I bet Aizen's has been discussed sometime before, perhaps it's just Yumi's now.

Josear XIII
June 29, 2009, 01:02 PM
well aside the clear points that chaos has done, i will not put in doubt cnet translation, being a man who actually is living in japan and studying languages, :P and his translation are my favs because he is as literal as posible without losing the meaning of the sentence