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Revolation
June 18, 2009, 10:12 PM
Ok first of all I'd watch this just for the potential dialogue between the two :blink

Facts:

We don't know exactly how much stronger Ulq's 2nd release made him at all. there was no clearification.

byakuya hasn't shown all of his moves. ulq has since he is well dead any moves he didn't show will never be known now.
orihime should had rejected the "ulq dust":darn

we don't know of the full extent of byakuya's kido.

ulq can shoot nuke lances:blink

Ozehro
June 18, 2009, 10:20 PM
Byakuya's senkei was sure impressive. I mean Ichigo went from super fast
to absolute poor in a matter of seconds after being trapped inside that attack.
shirosaki as usual had to help him out. but that said Ulq has this in the bag.
and I doubt kido would have done much since the ones with higher reiatsu simply
breaks through. but regardless this would make for an awesome fight!

Revolation
June 18, 2009, 10:27 PM
Byakuya's senkei was sure impressive. I mean Ichigo went from super fast
to absolute poor in a matter of seconds after being trapped inside that attack.
shirosaki as usual had to help him out. but that said Ulq has this in the bag.
and I doubt kido would have done much since the ones with higher reiatsu simply
breaks through. but regardless this would make for an awesome fight!

yeah. check out my latest post in the fantasy fight thread. i listed some other fights i wish to see as well in there

Eddy01741
June 19, 2009, 06:13 AM
Well, the way I see it in the four arts of the shinigami (zanjutsu, kido, hand to hand, and shunpo):

Hand to Hand: We havn't seen Byakuya fight with his hands/feet/body, we have seen Ulquiorra, as he doesn't have a sword either of his resurreccion forms (well, lanza in segunda can be a sword as well as a throwing javelin). Ulquiorra was owning Ichigo in his primera etapa with just his hands, so I give it to Ulquiorra.

Shunpo/Speed: I also think Ulquiorra has this one down. Bankai Ichigo was able to match Byakuya's speed when Byakuya used massacre scene (senkei), and Bankai Ichigo with the mask was on par/slightly faster than unreleased Ulquiorra. With Ulquiorra in primera etapa, Ulqui was so fast that Ichigo relied only on his reflexes+GT in his sword to stop some of his attacks. I also have to give this one to Ulquiorra.

Kido: Well, if you count cero/lanza as kido (both reiatsu based attacks), then I'd say that Ulqui has the advantage. As his cero will blow away probably most kido by Byakuya, and then Lanza is a friggin nuke (well, his cero oscuras is also a nuke). The only place that Byakuya might have the advantage is in Bakudou, restraining kidou, like his six rod light prison (bakudou #61) or Dankuu (Bakudo 80 something, forgot the exact number). Dankuu might be able to give Byakuya some defense against ceros and possibly even lanza (though i doubt it), but I personally doubt that the six rod light prison would be able to restrain Ulquiorra for very long, as I could see him overpowering it easily in his resurreccion form. However, even if it just holds him still for a second, it's one more second Byakuya to attack. So I say it's a tossup.

Zanjutsu: Ulquiorra kind of loses his sword after resurreccion, but his lanza de relampago acts as one in segunda etapa, so I'll just count that instead. Well, even unreleased, his swordfighting can be compared to that of bankai ichigo (save for the GT of course), relying on speed mostly, but yet his sword is still plenty powerful (it held back the attacks of vizard bankai ichigo). So Ulquiorra might be able to get by with just that for the first form of Senbonzakura Kageyoshi (where Byakuya goes for a omnidirectional attack). However, if he does go to segunda etapa, and uses his lanza, not only can his lanza be thrown as a nuke, but it can be used in close range as a sword/spear. I give the advantage to Ulquiorra.

I'm sorry to say, but Ulquiorra has shown the most impressive feats of the espada other than possibly Stark (who has impressive cero abilities indeed, the chapter just came out a few hours ago). Unreleased Ulquiorra is roughly analogous to bankai ichigo, he has a normal sword, he has a kido-like attack (cero for Ulqui, GT for Ichigo), and is a speed demon. Then when you go to segunda etapa, he has a throwable nuke sword/spear, even more powerful kido-like attack, and is even faster than before. I have to give it to Ulqui.

However, that said, I still do believe that Byakuya>Hitsu and Soi Fon.

Black Lagoon
June 19, 2009, 09:53 AM
Senbonzakura can't affect Ulq cuz he's fast even Ichigo was able to dodge or/and stop it IMO

kkck
June 19, 2009, 10:06 AM
Hand to Hand: We havn't seen Byakuya fight with his hands/feet/body, we have seen Ulquiorra, as he doesn't have a sword either of his resurreccion forms (well, lanza in segunda can be a sword as well as a throwing javelin). Ulquiorra was owning Ichigo in his primera etapa with just his hands, so I give it to Ulquiorra.

Zanjutsu: Ulquiorra kind of loses his sword after resurreccion, but his lanza de relampago acts as one in segunda etapa, so I'll just count that instead. Well, even unreleased, his swordfighting can be compared to that of bankai ichigo (save for the GT of course), relying on speed mostly, but yet his sword is still plenty powerful (it held back the attacks of vizard bankai ichigo). So Ulquiorra might be able to get by with just that for the first form of Senbonzakura Kageyoshi (where Byakuya goes for a omnidirectional attack). However, if he does go to segunda etapa, and uses his lanza, not only can his lanza be thrown as a nuke, but it can be used in close range as a sword/spear. I give the advantage to Ulquiorra

Ulquiorra loses a physical sword when he releases but he still has an energy sword in his resurreccion.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/345/16/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/346/03/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/346/12/
He can use that in the same way he could use any sword. Now, whether he has (or needs) that in his segunda etapa is debatable.

Josear XIII
June 19, 2009, 10:08 AM
I think is true, he could be capable of summoning one of those light spear that he had on primera etapa since you do not lose the abilities of your previous states

Eddy01741
June 19, 2009, 10:12 AM
Ulquiorra loses a physical sword when he releases but he still has an energy sword in his resurreccion.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/345/16/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/346/03/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/346/12/
He can use that in the same way he could use any sword. Now, whether he has (or needs) that in his segunda etapa is debatable.
Oh, my bad, memory lapse (forgetting Ulqui using a energy-sword).

However, i'd rather have a throwable nuke sword/spear/javelin than a energy-based sword, as it's just more versatile, so I'll say that if he has it, he didn't need it.

Revolation
June 20, 2009, 11:12 PM
Oh, my bad, memory lapse (forgetting Ulqui using a energy-sword).

However, i'd rather have a throwable nuke sword/spear/javelin than a energy-based sword, as it's just more versatile, so I'll say that if he has it, he didn't need it.


I agree. but ulq couldn't even control it right. why couldn't he just down the enrgy since it's a energy sword and he could control it.

Razh
June 22, 2009, 04:25 AM
Ok first of all I'd watch this just for the potential dialogue between the two :blink


Lol, totally.:amuse

Normally, I'd say Ulquiorra. But after seeing how overpowered the captains have become, I'm not so sure any more. I think it would be a pretty close battle. Ulquiorra seems more powerful at the moment, but Byakuya obviously didn't show everything he has in the 3 real fights that he had. And actually, I can honestly say that the one against Ichigo was the only serious fight among those. And it was obvious he can do more.
He never used any high level Kido, and it's obvious that he can.

For now, I'd say Ulquiorra.

KisamoriAEspada
June 30, 2009, 06:11 PM
I think Ulquiorra.
Because.... Ichigo beats Byakuya.
But Ichigo cant beat Ulquiorra.
Sweet and Simple.:vbunny

JP_Russell
June 30, 2009, 06:46 PM
This goes to Ulquiorra quite easily, in my opinion. Byakuya was evidently on the way to victory against Ichigo with just his bankai after wearing him down, but once Shirosaki came out (which was basically equivalent to Visored Ichigo in strength, I'd imagine), he was clearly pretty outmatched. Yet released Ulquiorra totally outclassed Visored Ichigo in his own proficiencies, namely his speed, power, and his reiatsu-based attack (nevermind Ulquiorra's high-speed regeneration).

I say Byakuya would have to use bankai, possibly even senkei or shukei against Ulquiorra unreleased to outmatch him. But once Ulquiorra releases, he doesn't stand a chance.



Well, even unreleased, his swordfighting can be compared to that of bankai ichigo (save for the GT of course), relying on speed mostly, but yet his sword is still plenty powerful (it held back the attacks of vizard bankai ichigo).


I'm afraid you're remembering wrong on that, as well.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/344/12/
That was Ichigo's first strike after putting on his mask against him.

Darth Executor
June 30, 2009, 10:27 PM
Ulquiorra, easily. I like Byakuya ability wise. He's the most "complete" captain we've seen so far, but in terms of raw power he's completely overrated. I consider him a mid-tier captain at best, below hitsugaya and around soi fon's level.

kkck
June 30, 2009, 10:36 PM
I would say byakuya is a little above in terms of power to what you said. The guy has shown proficiency in every shinigami art and is extremely well rounded. I would say he is somewhere between kyoraku/ukitake and hitsugaya/soifon.

Eddy01741
June 30, 2009, 11:16 PM
'm afraid you're remembering wrong on that, as well.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/344/12/
That was Ichigo's first strike after putting on his mask against him.

I meant his swordfighting style, not his actual power unreleased.

Ulquiorra relies a lot on his speed as we saw, just like Ichigo, and unreleased, doesn't have anything except for his sword, and his cero, just like Ichigo just has his sword, and his GT.

JP_Russell
July 01, 2009, 01:22 AM
I meant his swordfighting style, not his actual power unreleased.

Ulquiorra relies a lot on his speed as we saw, just like Ichigo, and unreleased, doesn't have anything except for his sword, and his cero, just like Ichigo just has his sword, and his GT.

Right, but you said his sword "held back the attacks of vizard bankai Ichigo," which I was showing isn't the case, that Visored Ichigo was able to nearly break it on his first attack.

Dr.Robotnick
September 06, 2009, 01:07 PM
I say Ulquiorra
I think the same of KisamoriEspada.

If Ichigo wins Byakuya
and Ichigo wins Ulquiorra...

ULQUIORRA WINS BYAKUYA

I'ts easy no?

El Samurai Guapo
September 06, 2009, 06:48 PM
Bakudo no roku juu san: sajyou sabaku will restrain Ulquiorra, and 100 of the Senkei blades will simultaneously impale him. Byakuya FTW.

hajialibaig
September 06, 2009, 07:30 PM
Ulquiorra beats Byakuya unreleased.

Vaizard Ichigo >> Bankai Ichigo

Unreleased Ulquiorra beat Vaizard Ichigo easily the first time around

Bankai Ichigo didn't stand a chance against unreleased Grimmjow, but with his mask, he pwned Unreleased Grimmjow. That's how much of power increase the mask gives Ichigo

In short:

Byakuya == Bankai Ichigo << Unreleased Grimmjow << Masked Ichigo << Unreleased Ulquiorra ~= Stronger Masked Ichigo (after he beat Grimmjow) << Released Ulquiorra

2nd released Ulquiorra is off charts cause his reiatsu/speed was un-worldy (as commented by Ishida)

Eddy01741
September 06, 2009, 07:49 PM
Bakudo no roku juu san: sajyou sabaku will restrain Ulquiorra, and 100 of the Senkei blades will simultaneously impale him. Byakuya FTW.

How would senkei blades be more powerful than his normal tiny blades?

Big blades actually leave more openings to escape, and we all know how fast Ulquiorra is especially in R2.

Also, we don't know if he can actually use all his senkei blades at once, he just commented that he would not against Ichigo, not that he can or cannot, and not if it's actually more effective than his base form of bankai's attacks.

kkck
September 06, 2009, 08:55 PM
How would senkei blades be more powerful than his normal tiny blades?

Big blades actually leave more openings to escape, and we all know how fast Ulquiorra is especially in R2.

Also, we don't know if he can actually use all his senkei blades at once, he just commented that he would not against Ichigo, not that he can or cannot, and not if it's actually more effective than his base form of bankai's attacks.
Well, the senkei blades do have considerably more concentrated power than the individual blades. That means each of them has the capacity to deal a considerable amount of damage in comparison to a great number of mini blades attacking. I doubt they will be enough though. Ulquiorra in segunda etapa seems way too powerful IMHO.

El Samurai Guapo
September 07, 2009, 03:30 AM
How would senkei blades be more powerful than his normal tiny blades?

Big blades actually leave more openings to escape, and we all know how fast Ulquiorra is especially in R2.

Also, we don't know if he can actually use all his senkei blades at once, he just commented that he would not against Ichigo, not that he can or cannot, and not if it's actually more effective than his base form of bankai's attacks.

Umm, because the senkei blades can actually impale you like a normal Katana? The normal sakura blades seem to do little more than harass their target. You're right about the larger blades being harder to escape though, that's why I said Byakuya could bind Ulquiorra first with a Bakudo spell like sajyou sabaku. Even if it only held Ulquiorra for a second, that would be enough.

Mifune_Taichou
September 12, 2009, 10:16 AM
Bakudo no roku juu san: sajyou sabaku will restrain Ulquiorra, and 100 of the Senkei blades will simultaneously impale him. Byakuya FTW.

I'm glad I'm not the only one lol.

Id give this to Byakuya. we never saw the full extent of his powers because of how badly he was underestimating ichigo and how much he didnt want to kill Rukia.

Speedwise Id give released ulquiorra a slight edge but with Byakuya's shihou black ops technique he wont be cought out. If he can keep up with Zomari he can keep up with Ulq.

Goukiecan definately hurt ulquiorra and its not something that he can escape from-there is no escape. Same for senkei. Since Byakuya can control those swords telepathically and he pretty much implied he CAN make them all impale Ichigo at the same time, he just wont, i'll have to say Ulquorra would have to do something incredible to survive getting skewered by Senkei. When you add to that Byakuya's advance mastery of kidou and shuhei hakuteiken I think it will be possibly the greatest fight ever but I'd give it to Byakuya. The thing about Lanza de Relampago that makes it so underwheaming to me is that yeah its a nuke but Ulq cant aim it for shit. Hes not hitting byakuya with that thing. Ulqs beast move imho is Cero oscuras-the fight will be determined by how well byakuya can block or dodge it.

El Samurai Guapo
September 12, 2009, 01:17 PM
I'm glad I'm not the only one lol.

Id give this to Byakuya. we never saw the full extent of his powers because of how badly he was underestimating ichigo and how much he didnt want to kill Rukia.

Speedwise Id give released ulquiorra a slight edge but with Byakuya's shihou black ops technique he wont be cought out. If he can keep up with Zomari he can keep up with Ulq.

Goukiecan definately hurt ulquiorra and its not something that he can escape from-there is no escape. Same for senkei. Since Byakuya can control those swords telepathically and he pretty much implied he CAN make them all impale Ichigo at the same time, he just wont, i'll have to say Ulquorra would have to do something incredible to survive getting skewered by Senkei. When you add to that Byakuya's advance mastery of kidou and shuhei hakuteiken I think it will be possibly the greatest fight ever but I'd give it to Byakuya. The thing about Lanza de Relampago that makes it so underwheaming to me is that yeah its a nuke but Ulq cant aim it for shit. Hes not hitting byakuya with that thing. Ulqs beast move imho is Cero oscuras-the fight will be determined by how well byakuya can block or dodge it.

If I were Byakuya, the moment I saw Ulquiorra prepare a lanza del relampago, I'd use Bakudo #4: Hainawa which will send the rope of light or whatever to wrap around his arms so he can't throw it.

benelori
September 12, 2009, 05:16 PM
Ulquiorra's win IMO...i read that most people think byakuya would use kido to restrain ulq then stick his swords in him...it kinda reminds me of the hacchi vs. aizen where we talked about kido not really defeating a speedy enemy...same here IMO, segunda etapa would be too much for byakuya or his kido IMO...ishida mentioned a lake or sea or whatever of reiatsu, very dense and powerful...of course byakuya's powers were not really cleared, but depending his fighting style and bankai and ulq's ability=>ulq win

Mifune_Taichou
September 13, 2009, 05:56 AM
If I were Byakuya, the moment I saw Ulquiorra prepare a lanza del relampago, I'd use Bakudo #4: Hainawa which will send the rope of light or whatever to wrap around his arms so he can't throw it.

Lol considering how bad Ulquiorra is at using that technique still Id lol if that causes him to explode it in his hands, Renji style.

Gran Maestro
September 13, 2009, 08:40 AM
Ulquiorra beats Byakuya unreleased.

Vaizard Ichigo >> Bankai Ichigo

Unreleased Ulquiorra beat Vaizard Ichigo easily the first time around

Bankai Ichigo didn't stand a chance against unreleased Grimmjow, but with his mask, he pwned Unreleased Grimmjow. That's how much of power increase the mask gives Ichigo

In short:

Byakuya == Bankai Ichigo << Unreleased Grimmjow << Masked Ichigo << Unreleased Ulquiorra ~= Stronger Masked Ichigo (after he beat Grimmjow) << Released Ulquiorra

2nd released Ulquiorra is off charts cause his reiatsu/speed was un-worldy (as commented by Ishida)

People keep misreading Ichigo-Kenpachi and Ichigo-Byakuya fights.

Ichigo shikai lost to Kenpachi (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/110/04/) (with his eye-patch on), Ichigo bankai lost to Byakuya (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/165/16/), only after Zangetsu (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/112/04/) or Hollow Ichigo (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/166/01/) took over, Ichigo did even the field.

Because people keep missing this point, they come up with absurdities like Kenpachi > Nnoitra > Grimmjow > Bankai Ichigo > Shikai Ichigo > Kenpachi.

So no, Ulquiorra unreleased would lose miserably to Byakuya.

That being said, Kubo implied that top 4 is in a different class, so Ulquiorra R2 would probably defeat Byakuya but since Byakuya (who is on par with Kenpachi) is stronger than Nnoitra, there's no clear-cut distinction between him and Ulquiorra.

Mifune_Taichou
September 13, 2009, 09:59 AM
People keep misreading Ichigo-Kenpachi and Ichigo-Byakuya fights.

Ichigo shikai lost to Kenpachi (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/110/04/) (with his eye-patch on), Ichigo bankai lost to Byakuya (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/165/16/), only after Zangetsu (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/112/04/) or Hollow Ichigo (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/166/01/) took over, Ichigo did even the field.

Because people keep missing this point, they come up with absurdities like Kenpachi > Nnoitra > Grimmjow > Bankai Ichigo > Shikai Ichigo > Kenpachi.

So no, Ulquiorra unreleased would lose miserably to Byakuya.

That being said, Kubo implied that top 4 is in a different class, so Ulquiorra R2 would probably defeat Byakuya but since Byakuya (who is on par with Kenpachi) is stronger than Nnoitra, there's no clear-cut distinction between him and Ulquiorra.

I agree with most of that but I personally dont consider kenpachi to be on Byakuya's level. He is mosntorously strong that much is true. However Ichigo+Zangetsu beat him. That only happened because Kenpachi went easy on him.However Byakuya also went easy on him and Ichigo was 10x stronger. Yoruichi who knew hed beaten Kenpachi pretty much said he needed to get 10x times stronger to stand any chance against byakuya. I'm not saying Byakuya is 10 times stronger than Zaraki but without Bankai I dont think Zaraki can compete with Byakuya, especially in senkei.

Gran Maestro
September 13, 2009, 10:46 AM
I agree with most of that but I personally dont consider kenpachi to be on Byakuya's level.

I posted my view on the subject in relevant thread (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1566642#post1566642).

arslan
September 13, 2009, 12:42 PM
I think its pretty obvious that Ulquiorra would win. Byakuya is pretty good but he isn't exactly a power house. Ulquiorra, on the other hand, packs one hell of a punch. He would mow Byakuya down no questions asked, IMO.

Hachigeneral
September 13, 2009, 01:49 PM
Ulquiorra completely outclasses Byakuya in reiatsu, speed, and power right now. Has Byakuya ever shown to be able to be so fast and strong that Ichigo can't even launch an attack? Nah, they were more or less on par and Byakuya actually got served by Ichigo's hollow. Anyway, here is Ulquiorra simply manhandling Ichigo+Sword like he is a rag doll. When he lands a simple tail smack the ground below explodes, which is power like we have never seen prior to this, good evidence that to take that form puts Los Noches in danger.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/348/15/

Byakuya doesnt have that kind of power...not even close. R2 isn't even needed for this fight...R1 manhandles Bya who was about equal to Bankai Ichigo give or take a few hits. How is he is gonna take on an Espada that manhandles a vizard+bankai Ichigo? Byakuya's power isnt increasing as fast as Ichigo's since he is the main character, was inexperienced when he fought byakuya, and gained several power ups since then. Heheh...sounds ridiculous.

Ya know, R2 Ulq has the best power feats up until now aside from Ichigonator, so he is arguably the most destructive Espada until Yammy/Stark/Halibel tops his feats. Lanza del Rampo looked like it could blow up the entire Los Noches and Ulq wasn't afraid to use it point blank if his opponent pressured him. If that wasn't Ichigonator the whole area woulda been destroyed and Ulq can just regenerate while Byakuya can't. I suspect he didnt want to fire it close because he cared about Orihime and even showed concern for Ishida a little bit when he saved him from Ichigo.
[hr]

Ulquiorra loses a physical sword when he releases but he still has an energy sword in his resurreccion.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/345/16/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/346/03/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/346/12/
He can use that in the same way he could use any sword. Now, whether he has (or needs) that in his segunda etapa is debatable.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/352/18/

He was able to cut through Ichigonator's horn like butter in R2. The lance is basically a nuke in his hand that can be used like a sword also.

Man, Byakuya is getting stomped in the poll. Should have made this Zaraki+Byakuya vs Ulq then it mighta been a match but I'd still give it to Ulq. Like Aizen said, swatting away two pieces of dust is not much different than one. If the difference between Byakuya and Ulq is so immense then surely he can beat two Byakuyas or a Byakuya and Kenpachi (whos on the same level or slightly beneath Byakuya by most accounts).

Problem is with the power that R2 Ulq has already shown he coulda been final boss material and nobody would complain...he only lost because Ichigonator is that far above everyone else in the manga so far.

Mifune_Taichou
September 13, 2009, 02:05 PM
Ulquiorra completely outclasses Byakuya in reiatsu, speed, and power right now. Has Byakuya ever shown to be able to be so fast and strong that Ichigo can't even launch an attack? Nah, they were more or less on par and Byakuya actually got served by Ichigo's hollow. Anyway, here is Ulquiorra simply manhandling Ichigo+Sword like he is a rag doll. When he lands a simple tail smack the ground below explodes, which is power like we have never seen prior to this, good evidence that to take that form puts Los Noches in danger.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/348/15/

Byakuya doesnt have that kind of power...not even close. R2 isn't even needed for this fight...R1 manhandles Bya who was about equal to Bankai Ichigo give or take a few hits. How is he is gonna take on an Espada that manhandles a vizard+bankai Ichigo? Byakuya's power isnt increasing as fast as Ichigo's since he is the main character, was inexperienced when he fought byakuya, and gained several power ups since then. Heheh...sounds ridiculous.

Ya know, R2 Ulq has the best power feats up until now aside from Ichigonator, so he is arguably the most destructive Espada until Yammy/Stark/Halibel tops his feats. Lanza del Rampo looked like it could blow up the entire Los Noches and Ulq wasn't afraid to use it point blank if his opponent pressured him. If that wasn't Ichigonator the whole area woulda been destroyed and Ulq can just regenerate while Byakuya can't. I suspect he didnt want to fire it close because he cared about Orihime and even showed concern for Ishida a little bit when he saved him from Ichigo.
<hr noshade size="1">


http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/352/18/

He was able to cut through Ichigonator's horn like butter in R2. The lance is basically a nuke in his hand that can be used like a sword also.

Man, Byakuya is getting stomped in the poll. Should have made this Zaraki+Byakuya vs Ulq then it mighta been a match but I'd still give it to Ulq. Like Aizen said, swatting away two pieces of dust is not much different than one. If the difference between Byakuya and Ulq is so immense then surely he can beat two Byakuyas or a Byakuya and Kenpachi (whos on the same level or slightly beneath Byakuya by most accounts).

Problem is with the power that R2 Ulq has already shown he coulda been final boss material and nobody would complain...he only lost because Ichigonator is that far above everyone else in the manga so far.

Lol Ulquiorra is getting overrated heavily again I see. Dont get me wrong hes my fav espada and all but him vs Byakuya AND zaraki-surely you jest sir?

Whats confusing people is that they think Ichigos shinigami powers are at the same level as when he fought ken and byakuya. They clearly are not. Since Hichigo took over his bankai is completely useless-he's slowed down and he can barely cut anything. Its not Byakuya and Kenpachi that are crarp-its Ichigo.

Ulquiorra's secunda will just about be a good match for Byakuya. It would be a close one but I would personaly give it to byakuya because you know-100's of swords skewering you instanteniously to me is better than a nukelance that ulquiorra cant aim with.

Hachigeneral
September 13, 2009, 03:02 PM
Lol Ulquiorra is getting overrated heavily again I see. Dont get me wrong hes my fav espada and all but him vs Byakuya AND zaraki-surely you jest sir?

Vote is 35 to 6, this fight is a stomp in Ulquiorra's favor. Now while this doesnt make it official the fact that it isn't even close implies more people see there is a huge power difference between them. It is a mismatch thread, simple as that. Byakuya definitely needs an assistant to help him against a beast like R2 Ulq.


Whats confusing people is that they think Ichigos shinigami powers are at the same level as when he fought ken and byakuya. They clearly are not. Since Hichigo took over his bankai is completely useless-he's slowed down and he can barely cut anything. Its not Byakuya and Kenpachi that are crarp-its Ichigo.

Wrong. Ichigo has been portrayed as bigger, stronger, and faster ever since acquiring the hollow powers. Black Getsuga was something that Byakuya was getting destroyed by with the utmost of ease when Hichigo took over. Yet when Zangetsu was in charge Ichigo wasn't even able to use those sort of attacks. Aizen confirms that Shinigamis can only overcome their limit by coming to the other side...hollowification. Bankai Ichigo had no hollow powers to speak of which means he was much much weaker than vizard Ichigo. He was so inexperienced that his own Bankai weakened (damaged his bones/body according to Hichigo) him substantially which gave Byakuya his edge back.


Ulquiorra's secunda will just about be a good match for Byakuya. It would be a close one but I would personaly give it to byakuya because you know-100's of swords skewering you instanteniously to me is better than a nukelance that ulquiorra cant aim with.

First of all he is never shown to skewer opponents with hundreds of swords. It is not canon confirmed whether he can do this or not, while the lance is canon. Even if he could, that attack would be a poor choice if he is fighting Ulquiorra up close, it would hit them both and Ulq can take a lot more damage than Byakuya and live. Plus it seems unusable in a fight against Ulquiorra since Byakuya focusing on bringing the swords down leaves an opening for Ulq to just decapitate him like he almost did to vizard Ichigo in R1. It is canon that Byakuya had to LOOK at the sword and use his hand just to attack with one of those swords. Imagine if he wanted to bring down all of them. That would cost him his head against Ulquiorra.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/165/10/

Note him looking at the sword he wants to move first. Then he has to grip the thing just to pierce Ichigo's foot.

Second of all, Bya's Bankai can't even keep up with fast opponents and Ulquiorra R2 outclassed Ichigo in the speed category big time. Heck, even R1 Ulquiorra had much more speed on him. His Bankai isn't keeping up with that.

Ya know, Ulquiorra was holding back so much just to teach Ichigo a lesson about feeling despair, he could have finished Ichigo in a few seconds if he wanted to judging by the power difference (bust out the lance and decap). Against Byakuya who doesn't have any personality Ulquiorra has no reason to keep him alive for the conversation. It is going to just be a one-sided murder in Ulq's favor.

Obviously I disagree about the lance thing. Making explosions roughly the size of Los Noches is more impressive than a small area being impaled by swords (IF HE CAN EVEN DO IT) since speed can dodge the swords and millions of petals for that matter but speed won't help much if he nukes the whole area.

poobert
September 13, 2009, 03:46 PM
I agree with Hachi. Until it says otherwise, Ichigo has been getting better and stronger.

Stage 1 Uli knocked the crap out of bankai masked Ichi and there is no reason he would do anything less to any of the captains minus the top 4.

After seeing Espada 1,2 and 3 do not very much, I am closer to thinking that rank 2 Uli is actually one of the stronger espada. Forget about not being able to aim his lanza thing, the blast radius is so bloody big, it is like Soi Fons bankai. Even if he misses byakuya, it doesn't really matter.

I think the problem is just that Halibel has been portrayed as weak and Stark has been faffing around, so the whole power level of the espada has slid down a huge amount, so it implies that the rest were pretty crap.

I think Byakuya would have trouble with Nnoitra let alone Uli.

Mifune_Taichou
September 13, 2009, 03:52 PM
There you(hachi) go using that word cannon in any way you think will serve your purpose. Meh it doesnt bother me anymore. Obviously you choose the bits of cannon that suit you and ignore the rest but that cant get a rise out of me like it used to.

The fact is Ichigo hasnt been portrayed as bigger and stronger he has been portayed as trash. It took all he had to beat grimmjow and Kenpachi beat Nnoitora who is stronger without too much effort. Ichigos pathetic you can agree or disagree. Many agree with me, many dont, I dont need you to.

This arc has shown us the true level of strenght of the captains of SS and that Ichigo is no where near that level without Ichigonator. It confirms what many already know, namely that Ichigo fluked the SS arc thorugh hero factor that cant hold back the Gotei 13 anymore because they arent badguys anymore.

Pfft using the poll results as justification for an argument....this isnt Ask the audience on Who wants to be a millionaire or something.
[hr]

.

I think Byakuya would have trouble with Nnoitra let alone Uli.

Not true. Kenpachi had no trouble at all with Nnoitora unless you count toying with him having trouble. After Ichigo beat Kenpachi he had to get bankai and get 10 times stronger to even stand a chance against Byakuya sooo i dont see where you are getting this from. Byakuya>Kenpachi. I dont think you'll find too many people who would dispute that.

deanmilanov
September 13, 2009, 03:54 PM
It's hard to say who would win 'cause Ulq only fought Ichigo. But as far as I remember Ulq always underestimated Ichigo until Ichigonator made quick work of him.
You could say it was because he could see the difference in power with his all-seeing eyes, but it's not like that - when Ichigo did his mask, Ulq first expirienced an attack, cracking his sword, and then found out his cero was useless (I know, it was to make fans feel good, but still). As for underestimating, if Ulq had fought seriously, Ichigo wouldn't have grabbed his sword hand and fired Getsuga in his chest.
So, without any further delay, I say: Byakua would win. Ulq wouldn't have fought seriously from the beginning and would have been rendered immobilized by a bakudo #61 - Buakua's trade mark. Then Buakya goes for his neck, ending his life.
Kuchiki is not the type to play with his prey, in Zomari's case he wanted to punish the arrogant espada.
P.S. If someone said something like that on the previous pages, sorry for repeating it. Also, I'm opened for discussions ^_^

Mifune_Taichou
September 13, 2009, 04:02 PM
It's hard to say who would win 'cause Ulq only fought Ichigo. But as far as I remember Ulq always underestimated Ichigo until Ichigonator made quick work of him.
You could say it was because he could see the difference in power with his all-seeing eyes, but it's not like that - when Ichigo did his mask, Ulq first expirienced an attack, cracking his sword, and then found out his cero was useless (I know, it was to make fans feel good, but still). As for underestimating, if Ulq had fought seriously, Ichigo wouldn't have grabbed his sword hand and fired Getsuga in his chest.
So, without any further delay, I say: Byakua would win. Ulq wouldn't have fought seriously from the beginning and would have been rendered immobilized by a bakudo #61 - Buakua's trade mark. Then Buakya goes for his neck, ending his life.
Kuchiki is not the type to play with his prey, in Zomari's case he wanted to punish the arrogant espada.
P.S. If someone said something like that on the previous pages, sorry for repeating it. Also, I'm opened for discussions ^_^

I'm glad we agree. I dunno if it will be as quick as that but i agree with the outcome. Bakudo followed by sharp, sharp death.

The only way it would be acceptable for Ulq to defeat byakuya is if it turns out that his secunda makes him better than starrk. Otherwise just no. If Hitsugaya can beat the 3rd espada, which he did, then Byakuya can beat the 4th unless secunda makes him better than the primeara. That is unless someone thinks Hitsugaya is stronger than Byakuya. And to anyone who says unreleased ulquiorra can defeat Byakuya-roflmao.

Hachigeneral
September 13, 2009, 04:42 PM
The only way it would be acceptable for Ulq to defeat byakuya is if it turns out that his secunda makes him better than starrk. Otherwise just no. If Hitsugaya can beat the 3rd espada, which he did, then Byakuya can beat the 4th unless secunda makes him better than the primeara.

Very faulty logic and ignores the fact that Hitsuguya is well-suited for fighting Halibel since he can turn her water to ice. That effectively made the fight a stalemate until he pulled his final attack. Considering his final attack would freeze anyone if it hit them I don't think that proves Byakuya is stronger than Halibel because she got frozen by Hitsuguya. What you are doing is saying because Hitsuguya beat someone that Byakuya can beat them too because they are both captains. You aren't even considering their abilities which is how the fights are decided.

Well, your logic is as plain as this,

Gin beat Ichigo, therefore Gin>Ichigo
Hitsuguya beat Gin, therefore Hitsuguya > Gin > Ichigo
Byakuya lost to Ichigo, therefore Hitsuguya > Gin > ichigo > Byakuya

You see why I came to that conclusion with your logic? Because like you I just considered who beat who without considering their abilities or lack thereof nor did I consider the specifics of the fights. ;)


The only way it would be acceptable for Ulq to defeat byakuya is if it turns out that his secunda makes him better than starrk.

BTW why is Stark the measuring bar for Ulquiorra in order to beat Byakuya? I'm not following your logic or lack of. Anyway, Halibel vs. Byakuya is an unknown right now. Barragan...it is pretty safe to say would be trouble for Byakuya unless you think Senbonzakura can't be aged or slowed down. Bya has no tools to deal with respira really and if it can hit Soifon it can hit him, considering Byakuya fights stationary with his Bankai. Barra also has no skin/flesh to cut up with Senbonzakura and has shown he can take nuclear level blasts. Goodluck damaging him with flower petal blades...

So it really doesn't matter how Ulq R2 fairs against the other Espada because the best comparison we have is him against someone Byakuya actually fought, Ichigo!

But ya know what...who is to say where R2 Ulq falls at this point without speculating? I think hes shown he is around Stark's level, anyone who says Halibel has shown to be stronger than R2 Ulq isn't going by feats, maybe when she goes all out they can say that but right now R2 Ulq has the feats atm. Halibel used a couple water attacks, shown she is as fast as Hitsuguya at least, and then got frozen, all that she has shown.

Mifune_Taichou
September 13, 2009, 04:51 PM
What I meant of course is since Hitsugaya is at the level to keep up with Hallibell's speed and has enough reiatsu so that his attacks work on her then he is at her level. And if he is on the level of the 3rd espada there is no reason why Byakuya wouldnt be on par with the 4th unless the secunda etapa actually makes ulquorra better. If he is still meant to be weaker than Hallibell in secunda then saying he will curbstomp byakuya is laughable.

Gin fought Ichigo back when Ikkaku was a problem so that cant be used.
The performance of the espada against the captains has been consistent-they;re all fodder. Ichigo just made ulq and grimmjow look good. Grimmjow is clearly trash. ulquiorra is ok only in secunda. Its a pipe dream to think his first release would get him far against any captain apart from Ichigo-its ichigo whos bad not the other way around.

Even Barragan, who is 2 ranks above Ulquiorra couldnt do more than take an arm off of Soi Fon and Hachi-each an overall average opponent.

Hachigeneral
September 13, 2009, 05:00 PM
Not true. Kenpachi had no trouble at all with Nnoitora unless you count toying with him having trouble. After Ichigo beat Kenpachi he had to get bankai and get 10 times stronger to even stand a chance against Byakuya sooo i dont see where you are getting this from. Byakuya>Kenpachi. I dont think you'll find too many people who would dispute that.

Maybe because if Noitara gets close to Byakuya with six Scythe-wielding arms he is getting hurt badly while Kenpachi can hang with that kind of damage? I don't consider Byakuya as durable as Kenpachi or Vizard Ichigo. I also don't know for sure if Byakuya has the same cutting power as Zaraki. We know Noitara's heirro is really strong, Kenpachi initially had trouble cutting it and a weakened Bankai Ichigo couldnt cut him. We don't know for sure if Byakuya can cut him to be honest, perhaps, as implied, Kenpachi could cut him because he has a load of Reiatsu? Another issue is that Byakuya's blades don't penetrate that deeply either, Zommari and Bankai Ichigo tanked the full force of it and survived and you think Noitara can't? Plus Noitara has shown great regeneration and this makes it a tough opponent for Byakuya.

Nevermind Noitara, I wonder if Byakuya can take Grimmjow released due to the speed blitz and offensive power. Can Bya tank these kind of hits?

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/282/17/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/282/18/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/282/19/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/283/02/

Heh, these pictures kind of confirm Ichigo is at a higher level, the Soul Society Ichigo would be hard pressed to survive one of those to the back yet the vizard eats a handful of them and keeps going. Ichigo got weaker? Heheh...right.

Mifune_Taichou
September 13, 2009, 05:06 PM
Maybe because if Noitara gets close to Byakuya with six Scythe-wielding arms he is getting hurt badly while Kenpachi can hang with that kind of damage? I don't consider Byakuya as durable as Kenpachi or Vizard Ichigo. I also don't know for sure if Byakuya has the same cutting power as Zaraki. We know Noitara's heirro is really strong, Kenpachi initially had trouble cutting it and a weakened Bankai Ichigo couldnt cut him. We don't know for sure if Byakuya can cut him to be honest, perhaps, as implied, Kenpachi could cut him because he has a load of Reiatsu? Another issue is that Byakuya's blades don't penetrate that deeply either, Zommari and Bankai Ichigo tanked the full force of it and survived and you think Noitara can't? Plus Noitara has shown great regeneration and this makes it a tough opponent for Byakuya.

Nevermind Noitara, I wonder if Byakuya can take Grimmjow released due to the speed blitz and offensive power. Can Bya tank these kind of hits?

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/282/17/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/282/18/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/282/19/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/283/02/

Heh, these pictures kind of confirm Ichigo is at a higher level, the Soul Society Ichigo would be hard pressed to survive one of those to the back yet the vizard eats a handful of them and keeps going. Ichigo got weaker? Heheh...right.

have you seen Ichigo move at such a speed as to create clones of himself. no. He is now slower than he was in the Byakuya fight. Thats about as cannon as it gets. Of course saying Ichigo in SS cant tank those hits is 100% speculation based on absolutely nothing but the fact it suits what you are saying. Thats a fact. Grimmjow speed blitz? Grimmjow is slower than Zomari. Byakuya can keep up with him. Grimjoww speedblitzing byakuya. heheh....right.

El Samurai Guapo
September 13, 2009, 05:09 PM
Lol considering how bad Ulquiorra is at using that technique still Id lol if that causes him to explode it in his hands, Renji style.

LOL, I thought of that too. That would have been pretty funny, wouldn't it?

By the way Mifune_Taichou, I think I'll help you out here.

Hachigeneral, you seem to be overlooking one thing here: kidou. That's what makes Byakuya so far above Ichigo. In Byakuya's fight against Ichigo, he only used kidou one time. Why would he do that, when he has access to so many binding and attack spells? The only answer is that he really didn't want to kill him. Notice how he fired that Byakurai into Ichigo's shoulder rather than his head or heart? And byakurai is only level 4 hadou. You say that Byakuya's swords are easier to dodge than lanza del relampago? Not when you're in a six rod light prison!

Byakuya went much harder on Renji than he did against Ichigo. Against Renji he actually did use more kidou (Rikujoukou and Soukatsui), and he actually did fire some sword shaped senbonzakura at him. Sure Byakuya showed Ichigo his Senkei, but what good did that do? He only fought him with one sword, he might as well have reverted to his sealed state!

Kidou makes such a huge difference it's not even funny. Look at Hachigen, he's a fat weak bastard that basically has nothing but kidou, and that alone makes him stronger than the segunda espada. Byakuya may not be at Hachi's level when it comes to kidou, but he's up there. Sure Ulquiorra has better regenerative techniques, but Byakuya has much better defense using both his Zanapatou's abilities and Kidou. Lanza del relampago and cero oscuras are is easily block-able using Danku.

I've said this a thousand times, Kurosaki Ichigo is not a captain level shinigami.

Mifune_Taichou
September 13, 2009, 05:13 PM
LOL, I thought of that too. That would have been pretty funny, wouldn't it?

lolage yh. It would be nice comic relief because ulq is too serious.

Byakuya would be like"yhhh come back when you can use your owm power without killing yourself". Shunpos away

Hachigeneral
September 13, 2009, 05:18 PM
Even Barragan, who is 2 ranks above Ulquiorra couldnt do more than take an arm off of Soi Fon and Hachi-each an overall average opponent.

Soi Fon is captain level yet Barragan had her beat easily until Hachi interferred. Consider his abilities against Byakuyas. Do you see a way for Byakuya to fight him effectively? Barragan is a NUKE eater and a skeleton surrounded by a decaying aura. Senbonzakura ain't denting that, melee is suicide, and he ages Byakuya's kidou. Based on what they have shown Byakuya has no counter but to stay away and watch like Soifon had to do.

Gotta realize Barragan was messing around the whole time too. His serious attack got her arm then he farted around chasing Omaeda and standing in front of Hachi's walls. He was written to be stupid precisely because he was that strong.


What I meant of course is since Hitsugaya is at the level to keep up with Hallibell's speed and has enough reiatsu so that his attacks work on her then he is at her level. And if he is on the level of the 3rd espada there is no reason why Byakuya wouldnt be on par with the 4th unless the secunda etapa actually makes ulquorra better. If he is still meant to be weaker than Hallibell in secunda then saying he will curbstomp byakuya is laughable.

Halibel's power is clearly in the water attacks from what we can tell so far. She was able to fire streams of water that covered a large portion of the town but had them frozen. It is because he counters her abilities so well that she looks like fodder.

I've seen nothing that says she is as fast as R2 Ulq, as strong as him, or that she has as much reiatsu. I'm going to give you some straight talk. Realize Ulq R2 was shattering the area around him just by landing and blitzing Ichigo. Acknowledge Ulq R2 had reitsu that was described as a heavy black ocean coming down. Come to terms with the fact that Ulq R2 had nuclear blasts the size of Hueco Mundo which is its own world in itself. His feats are just up there right behind Ichigonator's. Byakuya doesnt have the feats to hang with these boys, sorry.

jaymizzo
September 13, 2009, 05:23 PM
What I meant of course is since Hitsugaya is at the level to keep up with Hallibell's speed and has enough reiatsu so that his attacks work on her then he is at her level. And if he is on the level of the 3rd espada there is no reason why Byakuya wouldnt be on par with the 4th unless the secunda etapa actually makes ulquorra better. If he is still meant to be weaker than Hallibell in secunda then saying he will curbstomp byakuya is laughable.

Gin fought Ichigo back when Ikkaku was a problem so that cant be used.
The performance of the espada against the captains has been consistent-they;re all fodder. Ichigo just made ulq and grimmjow look good. Grimmjow is clearly trash. ulquiorra is ok only in secunda. Its a pipe dream to think his first release would get him far against any captain apart from Ichigo-its ichigo whos bad not the other way around.

Even Barragan, who is 2 ranks above Ulquiorra couldnt do more than take an arm off of Soi Fon and Hachi-each an overall average opponent.

:facepalm
Seriously, Are u saying tht byakuya is on par with Halibel or ulqi? or any of the top 4? lmao...

Ulquiorra would destroy byakuya...
i mean unreleased ulqi was almst killing ichigo who is > byakuya

R1 Ulquiorra was able to manhandle ichigo without a sweat
R2 was overkill untill ichigonator showd up...

Fact is, Byakuya NEVER beat ichigo, coz beating ichigo also means beating his hollow side (if it appears).. and we all saw how easily Byakuya was walkd on..
Ulquiorrs wouldnt need to go as far as R1.. he could just do what he did to ichigo (when he raised hi power level coz ichigo got cocky)

Anyway... its clear tht Byakuya would die :tem

Mifune_Taichou
September 13, 2009, 05:33 PM
Soi Fon is captain level yet Barragan had her beat easily until Hachi interferred. Consider his abilities against Byakuyas. Do you see a way for Byakuya to fight him effectively? Barragan is a NUKE eater and a skeleton surrounded by a decaying aura. Senbonzakura ain't denting that, melee is suicide, and he ages Byakuya's kidou. Based on what they have shown Byakuya has no counter but to stay away and watch like Soifon had to do.

Gotta realize Barragan was messing around the whole time too. His serious attack got her arm then he farted around chasing Omaeda and standing in front of Hachi's walls. He was written to be stupid precisely because he was that strong.



Halibel's power is clearly in the water attacks from what we can tell so far. She was able to fire streams of water that covered a large portion of the town but had them frozen. It is because he counters her abilities so well that she looks like fodder.

I've seen nothing that says she is as fast as R2 Ulq, as strong as him, or that she has as much reiatsu. I'm going to give you some straight talk. Realize Ulq R2 was shattering the area around him just by landing and blitzing Ichigo. Acknowledge Ulq R2 had reitsu that was described as a heavy black ocean coming down. Come to terms with the fact that Ulq R2 had nuclear blasts the size of Hueco Mundo which is its own world in itself. His feats are just up there right behind Ichigonator's. Byakuya doesnt have the feats to hang with these boys, sorry.

Ulq R2's feats are precisly why I am saying this:

If R2 is better than hallibell then he may be able to beat Byakuya. If however despite how they LOOK his "feats" dont make him stronger than her and he is still at level 4 then he cant be stronger than byakuya. How about i give YOU some straighttalk. If Hitsugaya was much weaker than Hallibell it doesnt matter if he is the right element-he wouldnt be able to counter her attacks. Can Rukia do it-no. He can do it because in terms of reiatsu they are at the same level. Byakuya is at least at Hitsu's level in terms of reaitsu, which means he is also at least equal to the 3rd Espada. To say that Ulq is stronger than him is speculation until we get confirmation that R2 realy does make him stronger. DOnt forget Ulquiorra outright said he is weaker than the top 3.

You see fighting isnt all about raw power. Look at the Barragan fight- he is much stronger that both his opponent yet in the end he lost to tactics. It was a fluke but it happened not because they were stronger but because they outmaneuvered him. Lanza de relampago is awesome but Ulquiorra can hardly hit the side of a barn with that thing let alone Byakuya. Byakuya's powers are about skill and precision. WIth Ulquiorra's innacurate attacks he is at a disadvantage. His only shot is spamming cero oscuras and hoping he hits.
[hr]

:facepalm
Seriously, Are u saying tht byakuya is on par with Halibel or ulqi? or any of the top 4? lmao...

Ulquiorra would destroy byakuya...
i mean unreleased ulqi was almst killing ichigo who is > byakuya

R1 Ulquiorra was able to manhandle ichigo without a sweat
R2 was overkill untill ichigonator showd up...

Fact is, Byakuya NEVER beat ichigo, coz beating ichigo also means beating his hollow side (if it appears).. and we all saw how easily Byakuya was walkd on..
Ulquiorrs wouldnt need to go as far as R1.. he could just do what he did to ichigo (when he raised hi power level coz ichigo got cocky)

Anyway... its clear tht Byakuya would die :tem

No not really. Ichigo isnt a scale to anything. He struggled against Grimmjow yet Kenpachi crushed Nnoitora. Ichigo beat Kenpachi in shikai without a mask-are you saying Ichigo in shikai without a mask can beat nnoitora(or anyone for that matter)? Now whos saying funny things?

He certainly cant beat Kenpachi again. The Grimmjow and Nnoitora fight established that Kenpachi is stronger than Vaizard Ichigo right now-he just got let off in the SS arc.

The same Ichigo who beat Kenpachi in shikai needed bankai to stand a chance against byakuya and still got crushed even though he was being underestimated at every turn. At the end of the fight Ichigo was wasted and Byakuya could shunpo. if he wanted Ichigo dead he could have just wasted him with kido-Berrykun was down for the count. Byakuya didnt want him dead-he didnt actually want to kill Rukia lol.

jaymizzo
September 13, 2009, 05:34 PM
Ulq R2's feats are precisly why I am saying this:

If R2 is better than hallibell then he may be able to beat Byakuya.


Kinda rude, but i stopd reading at tht point...
R2 MAY be able.. lmao soo ur tryna say byakuya is at ichigonators level? :facepalm

Dude.. get over it, u see it and we see it. Ulquiorra would destroy byakuya.. i mean comeon dude, petals harming ulquiorra? i mean fully powerd ichigo with getsuga couldnt do shit to ulquiorra, and getsuga tenshou messd with byakuya.. lol to a point he had to dodge it.

i would really like to see byakuya take GT to the face :D
And dude, dont delude urself by saying byakuya can scrath ulquiorra.. :facepalm

and btw, i dunno if u know this, but inexperienced ichigo still beat byakuya

Hachigeneral
September 13, 2009, 05:36 PM
have you seen Ichigo move at such a speed as to create clones of himself. no. He is now slower than he was in the Byakuya fight.

Ichigo never created clones since they never attacked Byakuya like Zommari's clones were doing. Zommari's "clone trick" and yes he called it a trick was made using Sonido which is different from what Ichigo is doing here. All I'm going to say is it is different, no way to tell if it is faster or not, but common sense is that Zommari is faster than the Ichigo hundreds of chapters ago.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/163/13/

Again, these are not clones but afterimages and yes there were a lot of them. The difference is that clones have shown they can attack but I never saw Ichigo's after image hurt anyone.

Unfortunately all arguments using these as some amazing speed feat fail to acknowledge one overwhelming fact that crushes this. Perspective. Byakuya saw afterimages because he couldn't keep up at the time. He WAS slower than Ichigo and clearly never fought such a fast opponent. Pretend this wasn't seen through Byakuya's eyes and instead someone stronger. For example, if it was Aizen who is at a higher level in Byakuya's place, Ichigo may look slow to him. Do you really think those tricks would confuse Aizen? He may not even see after images against that level of speed.

Now back to R2 Ulq. I personally consider this a better speed feat because there were no after images shown. The attack was so fast that there was no time to show them. Looked like he was preparing to meet head on, then, without even an exclamation point or an afterimage he gets plowed from the side. ;)

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/348/13/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/348/14/

jaymizzo
September 13, 2009, 05:40 PM
Ulq R2's feats are precisly why I am saying this:




No not really. Ichigo isnt a scale to anything. He struggled against Grimmjow yet Kenpachi crushed Nnoitora. Ichigo beat Kenpachi in shikai without a mask-are you saying Ichigo in shikai without a mask can beat nnoitora(or anyone for that matter)? Now whos saying funny things?

He certainly cant beat Kenpachi again. The Grimmjow and Nnoitora fight established that Kenpachi is stronger than Vaizard Ichigo right now-he just got let off in the SS arc.

The same Ichigo who beat Kenpachi in shikai needed bankai to stand a chance against byakuya and still got crushed even though he was being underestimated at every turn. At the end of the fight Ichigo was wasted and Byakuya could shunpo. if he wanted Ichigo dead he could have just wasted him with kido-Berrykun was down for the count. Byakuya didnt want him dead-he didnt actually want to kill Rukia lol.


Bold no1: read tht a couple of times..

Bold no2: Really? Mask + bankai ichigo cant kill kenpachi.. :facepalm .. haaaah u reachd a hole new level of dilusion

Bold no3: Ur point exactly? Byakuya wouldnt be able to beat ichigo even if he trained another million years... As we all know, Ichigonator is just a power of ichigo tht only runs on HIS instincts, so byakuya killing ichigo will onl result in his humiliation... lol

As i said, Unexperienced ichigo walkd over Byakuya ( u doo know hichigo/shirosaki is ichigo right :p )

Mifune_Taichou
September 13, 2009, 05:44 PM
Bold no1: read tht a couple of times..

Bold no2: Really? Mask + bankai ichigo cant kill kenpachi.. :facepalm .. haaaah u reachd a hole new level of dilusion

Bold no3: Ur point exactly? Byakuya wouldnt be able to beat ichigo even if he trained another million years... As we all know, Ichigonator is just a power of ichigo tht only runs on HIS instincts, so byakuya killing ichigo will onl result in his humiliation... lol

As i said, Unexperienced ichigo walkd over Byakuya ( u doo know hichigo/shirosaki is ichigo right :p )

ME reach a whole new level of dillsuion. Ok lets see. Ichigo in Bankai + mask barely, just barely beat Grimmjow. Kenpachi easily beat Nnoitora-an espada stronger than him. yh sure I'm the one who is dreaming here.

jaymizzo
September 13, 2009, 05:51 PM
ME reach a whole new level of dillsuion. Ok lets see. Ichigo in Bankai + mask barely, just barely beat Grimmjow. Kenpachi easily beat Nnoitora-an espada stronger than him. yh sure I'm the one who is dreaming here.

Did u read ur own statement :eyeroll

and It was shown tht ichigo was basicly toying with girmjoow. when Orihime started her kurosaki kun stuff, ichigo messd grimjow up with quater of a mask left :D

ohh.. incase u cbb reading ur statement.. this is what it basicly says, since ichigo beat kenpachi with shikai, and kenpachi beat noitorra, doesnt tht mean ichigo is stronger than noitora :D

re-read :D

Gran Maestro
September 13, 2009, 05:58 PM
ohh.. incase u cbb reading ur statement.. this is what it basicly says, since ichigo beat kenpachi with shikai, and kenpachi beat noitorra, doesnt tht mean ichigo is stronger than noitora :D

Read this post (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1566492#post1566492). ;)

Hachigeneral
September 13, 2009, 06:06 PM
and It was shown tht ichigo was basicly toying with girmjoow. when Orihime started her kurosaki kun stuff, ichigo messd grimjow up with quater of a mask left

Gotta agree. Plus vizard Ichigo was beating Grimmjow until he saved Orihime by tanking FIVE grimmjow missiles with his...back. Grimmjow acknowledges this here.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/283/01/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/283/02/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/283/03/

How many can Byakuya take in the back and live? Zero or one? ;)

benelori
September 13, 2009, 06:18 PM
Ichigo never created clones since they never attacked Byakuya like Zommari's clones were doing. Zommari's "clone trick" and yes he called it a trick was made using Sonido which is different from what Ichigo is doing here. All I'm going to say is it is different, no way to tell if it is faster or not, but common sense is that Zommari is faster than the Ichigo hundreds of chapters ago.


I think Zommari did quasi-clones which are fake-clones, they did attack byakuya, but the clones never really landed a hit, so by the definition of quasi clones, I think it's similar to ichigo's.

Hachigeneral
September 13, 2009, 06:39 PM
I think Zommari did quasi-clones which are fake-clones, they did attack byakuya, but the clones never really landed a hit, so by the definition of quasi clones, I think it's similar to ichigo's.

Nah, the clones of Zommari were able to participate in battle or at least appear to be participating. It appears they stabbed him from both angles in these panels. When they were blasted and slashed they showed blood and wounds which implies they are temporarily physical at least.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/299/13/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/299/17/

That is why I call Ichigo's "clones" afterimages and consider them different. He just never showed that degree of control over them like Zommari...the ability to manifest them and make them fight. Ichigo's afterimages were more like a side effect of his bankai speed that Byakuya was perceiving while Zommari was able to use actual clones due to his trick with Sonido to create copies of himself temporarily. Ichigo's couldnt fight obviously they were just blurs of where he was...
[hr]

To say that Ulq is stronger than him is speculation until we get confirmation that R2 realy does make him stronger. DOnt forget Ulquiorra outright said he is weaker than the top 3.

Back to topic. No, Ulquiorra did not say he was weaker.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/271/17/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/271/19/

He is just talking about the # on his chest clearly. Even if he said it outright that he is weaker, it doesn't count R2 since he implied he hid it. He wanted Ichigo to feel despair, we know this, his aspect of death is despair too.

Look at Ulquiorra closely and note his motives. One of the chapters was even called "the Antagonizer" which confirms Ulquiorra is trying to crack Ichigo mentally, not necessary destroy him physically. He isn't a fighter out to prove his strength, he gets pleasure by making his opponents feel despair. If Byakuya doesn't show he can be antagonized like Ichigo then "The Antagonizer" will just go R2 and break Byakuya into pieces for good.

It is a mismatch man...it doesn't matter how Ulq fairs to the other Espada, all that we know is that he is among the strongest characters right now and has the feats and power on his end of the argument. Byakuya just has the pink.

kkck
September 13, 2009, 07:05 PM
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/352/18/

He was able to cut through Ichigonator's horn like butter in R2. The lance is basically a nuke in his hand that can be used like a sword also.

Man, Byakuya is getting stomped in the poll. Should have made this Zaraki+Byakuya vs Ulq then it mighta been a match but I'd still give it to Ulq. Like Aizen said, swatting away two pieces of dust is not much different than one. If the difference between Byakuya and Ulq is so immense then surely he can beat two Byakuyas or a Byakuya and Kenpachi (whos on the same level or slightly beneath Byakuya by most accounts).

Problem is with the power that R2 Ulq has already shown he coulda been final boss material and nobody would complain...he only lost because Ichigonator is that far above everyone else in the manga so far.
I forgot about that post lol.... in some other thread I did comment on ulquiorra being capable of using lanza del relampago as a sword though(obviously after I wrote the post you quoted and noticing that he actually could use it that way).

Gran Maestro
September 13, 2009, 07:19 PM
Simulating a fight in our mind and deriving conclusions from it doesn't necessarily give correct results. If the fight hadn't happened, who would have thought Kenpachi had the slightest chance against Tousen's bankai? Unfortunately it all comes to these simulations when we try to promote our opinions.

Ichigo is NOT a measuring stick for anyone. For all we know, he can even defeat his strongest enemy Aizen because he's the main protagonist. Main protagonists are destined to defeat all opposition, eventually.

Kenpachi has defeated Nnoitra and people still argue Grimmjow (Nnoitra's inferior) can defeat Byakuya. Does Byakuya stink (compared to Kenpachi), because this is the impression I get from some of the arguments.

Every person who ignores Zangetsu or Hollow Ichigo's roles in Ichigo's victories (or draws) against Byakuya and Kenpachi should solve this paradox before attempting to use it as a basis for any argument:

Kenpachi > Nnoitra > Grimmjow > Bankai Ichigo > Shikai Ichigo > Kenpachi

Unless somebody argues Kenpachi is much stronger than himself (which is absurd), he/she must consider that shikai/bankai Ichigo may not be stronger than Kenpachi/Byakuya, this is why Kubo saved Ichigo by using Zangetsu and Hollow Ichigo as plot devices.

Now that we established bankai Ichigo may not be stronger than Byakuya, there's no way to reliably compare Ulquiorra with Byakuya. Ulquiorra's LDR may look impressive but so is Kenpachi's kendo (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/312/03/). "Ulquiorra impressed me more, therefore he is stronger" is not a valid argument, it's only an opinion. It may be the right opinion but it's still an opinion, not a fact.

Here's my 2 cents (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1548366#post1548366) about why Ulquiorra R2 is weaker than Stark, adding it up with my above opinion gives "Yes, Byakuya stands a chance against Ulquiorra."

Hachigeneral
September 13, 2009, 07:25 PM
I forgot about that post lol.... in some other thread I did comment on ulquiorra being capable of using lanza del relampago as a sword though(obviously after I wrote the post you quoted and noticing that he actually could use it that way).

I know how it is man. People quote ya before you can correct yourself. Had it happen to me, I was just confirming it for the rest of the doubters before you could. Didn't mean to steal your thunder.

Well, it seems you agree that this is a stomp at least. Ya know, I just don't get how people think R2 Ulquiorra is some kind of toy...he's a monster.

Well yeah, Ichigonator did make him his chew toy but he would do that to anyone. At least Ulquiorra had the courage to keep fighting despite being outpowered. I could see Byakuya running away since he wet his pants when Hichigo came out the first time.

TheChosenOne
September 13, 2009, 07:33 PM
ME reach a whole new level of dillsuion. Ok lets see. Ichigo in Bankai + mask barely, just barely beat Grimmjow. Kenpachi easily beat Nnoitora-an espada stronger than him. yh sure I'm the one who is dreaming here.

That isn't really a good comparison since there are no set powerscales for espada vs shinigami fight. :)

Just cuz Kenpachi defeated Nnoi doesn't make him stronger than Ichigo, it simply makes him stronger than Nnoitora. Each of the espada has different skills and abilities that make them different from each other. Put Kenpachi in the same situation as Byakuya and everything changes since Kenpachi doesn't have the abilities to fight an opponent like Zommari. Byakuya was able to defeat Zommari due to Kido knowledge and him having a bankai which gave him greater numbers. Grimmjow fought differently than Nnoi, he had much greater speed (on par with Ichigo) and different attacks, which made him a troublesome enemy for Ichigo. :)

Hachigeneral
September 13, 2009, 07:42 PM
Here's my 2 cents about why Ulquiorra R2 is weaker than Stark, adding it up with my above opinion gives "Yes, Byakuya stands a chance against Ulquiorra."

And you gotta be stronger than Stark to beat Byakuya? That is some funny stuff. Byakuya hasn't even beaten Noitara/Grimmjow/Ulq/Halibel/Barragan and we really don't know how he would counter some of them (Barragan's respira). Just because Hitsuguya fights evenly with Halibel doesn't mean Byakuya is at or above #3. It is just Hitsuguya's abilities keeping him in the fight. Hitsu may have very well lost to Zommari for all we know.


Ulquiorra was probably most loyal among all espada, if his R2 made him stronger than Harribel (let alone Stark), doesn't it mean that he betrayed Aizen by hiding such an important piece of information?

Loyalty could be a front or just a means to receive better treatment by Aizen. I don't think any Espada want to end up getting reaitsu pwned by Aizen or having their limbs hacked off by Tousen. Well, R2...Aizen didn't know about it so the point is moot. It was the betrayal that Aizen didn't see if anything. Since Espada apparently kill or get rid of each other to move up Ulquiorra may have been hiding that release for his own survival. If Noitara decides to try to move up again and doesn't account for R2 Ulquiorra then he will get the surprise of his life. It is just good strategy man.

Ulquiorra may not want to be #1-3 because he knows Aizen will use him against the captains in FKT on the front lines and he may end up a casualty like Barragan. Clearly Ulq has a stronger interest in Ichigo/Orihime and most likely preferred to hang back and mess with them. The higher ranked you are, the more Aizen uses you in battle...which is why he took the top 1-3.


We know that Mindless Ichigo (aka Ichigonator) is much stronger than Ulquiorra R2. If Ulquiorra is much stronger than Stark, doesn't it mean that Mindless Ichigo (MI) is quite probably the strongest being in Bleach? Will MI be Ichigo's final transformation, will Bleach end soon?

I'd say Ichigonator proved he is one of the strongest at the moment. It really doesn't matter how strong Ichigonator is since it can't be controlled. It was just a way to save Ichigo from R2 Ulq's overwhelming power. R2 Ulq is not confirmed stronger than Halibel, Barragan, Stark, or Yammy. It is up for the viewer to decide where they put him. Clearly most people think quite highly of Ulquiorra's power judging by this Byakuya stomp thread.

Gran Maestro
September 13, 2009, 08:16 PM
And you gotta be stronger than Stark to beat Byakuya? That is some funny stuff. Byakuya hasn't even beaten Noitara/Grimmjow/Ulq/Halibel/Barragan and we really don't know how he would counter some of them (Barragan's respira). Just because Hitsuguya fights evenly with Halibel doesn't mean Byakuya is at or above #3. It is just Hitsuguya's abilities keeping him in the fight. Hitsu may have very well lost to Zommari for all we know.

I mentioned Stark because it's hard to show your point while some people think Ulquiorra is even stronger than Stark.

And Nnoitra may have lost to Zommari as well but Nnoitra is #5 and Zommari is #7, this is why I say we shouldn't trust our simulations too much. It's all up to Kubo, for example he can say Yamaji's fire can burn Barragan and his respira before Barragan can extinguish it and we can't rule against him. IMO Kubo never lets Barragan defeat Aizen if he thinks Barragan is much weaker than Aizen. (Protagonists may be the exceptions to this rule but this is another story.)


Since Espada apparently kill or get rid of each other to move up Ulquiorra may have been hiding that release for his own survival. If Noitara decides to try to move up again and doesn't account for R2 Ulquiorra then he will get the surprise of his life. It is just good strategy man. Ulquiorra may not want to be #1-3 because he knows Aizen will use him against the captains. Clearly Ulq has a strong interest in Ichigo/Orihime and most likely preferred to hang back and mess with them.

Ulquiorra was already #4 before he met Ichigo/Orihime and if he had shown his R2, he would have intimidated likes of Nnoitra, which IMO is a better strategy. Not to mention, hiding your abilities from your superiors is kinda betrayal, Aizen might have used him more efficiently, had he known Ulquiorra had R2. There is also the possibility that Aizen knew Ulquiorra's R2 but Ulquiorra didn't know Aizen knew that.

Hachigeneral
September 13, 2009, 08:42 PM
Ulquiorra was already #4 before he met Ichigo/Orihime and if he had shown his R2, he would have intimidated likes of Nnoitra, which IMO is a better strategy. Not to mention, hiding your abilities from your superiors is kinda betrayal, Aizen might have used him more efficiently, had he known Ulquiorra had R2. There is also the possibility that Aizen knew Ulquiorra's R2 but Ulquiorra didn't know Aizen knew that.

Nah, because remember, Noitara doesn't have to be stronger than you to get rid of you. He just has to know how strong you are and get his helper (Szayel) to make up the difference with a plan. Nel was way stronger than Noit but with the plan they used it didn't matter, Noitara still took her out. Now if they have the perfect plan ready for R1 Ulquiorra and they don't know about R2 Ulquiorra chances are their plan is going to fail due to the greater power and the nuclear lance. So in a sense Ulquiorra protects himself by hiding it.

It isn't betrayal because Aizen didn't know about it though. Ulquiorra BELIEVED Aizen didn't see aka know about it, so in his mind he wasn't betraying Aizen. It is more of something he did for his own motives which we can only speculate on. Now, he may very well been planning to overthrow Aizen and use that R2 as his trump card but there is no evidence of that. He may have also acquired R2 recently and never got around to telling Aizen about it with all the chaos going on.

Either way, it looked like a huge powerup and makes his #4 position debatable.

Gran Maestro
September 14, 2009, 04:25 AM
Either way, it looked like a huge powerup and makes his #4 position debatable.

Ulquiorra R1 curbstomped Ichigo, Ulquiorra R2 also curbstomped Ichigo, Mindless Ichigo curbstomped Ulquiorra R2, Mindless Ichigo would have curbstomped Ulquiorra R1. Sure, there is a power-up but we have no reference point to accurately measure the extent of Ulquiorra's power-up. Ulquiorra's R2 is his ability, for all we know it's not a common arrancar trait like shinigami's bankai, so IMO we shouldn't consider it as a bankai-level power-up until Kubo confirms it.

Storywise I don't think Mindless Ichigo is the last power-up Ichigo will ever get in Bleach, but overrating Ulquiorra R2, by extension, overrates Mindless Ichigo and makes him almost invincible. Unless Kubo is planning to end Bleach soon, such a power-up doesn't make sense. Yes, Ulquiorra's #4 position is debatable but IMO considering him to be a #4 avoids unnecessary confusion.

jaymizzo
September 14, 2009, 01:17 PM
Sooo Many people Overpower Byakuya ( well the 8 few ).. Show us Evidence that Byakuya is the slightest bit stronger than Ulquiorra..

I mean.. Saying Byakuya beat ichigo = him beating hichigo who is AN IMBODIMENT OF ICHIGOS POWER VIA INSTINCT people talk about hichigo/shirosaki/zangetsu as if they were separate beings...

Ichigo Beat Ulquiorra.. Say wat u want, but thts a fact.. and Ichigo beat Byakuya, and kenpachi..(Zangetsu = ichigos power)

So before tryna compare byakuya to ulquiorra, try and think of the level of oponnent he fought.. and the abillities, and if he can go agaisnt someone who is arguably the strongest espada behind stark (IMO and a lot of ppl, R2 is atleast on par with stark released..)



P.S: a little reminder.. Ichigonator & Shirosaki are Ichigo running on pure instinct or protect mode.. Zangetsu is Ichigos sword hence ichigos power..
Saying Someone beat ichigo means they beat all those guyz, and ulquiorra at the start did :D
[hr]

Ulquiorra R1 curbstomped Ichigo, Ulquiorra R2 also curbstomped Ichigo, Mindless Ichigo curbstomped Ulquiorra R2, Mindless Ichigo would have curbstomped Ulquiorra R1. Sure, there is a power-up but we have no reference point to accurately measure the extent of Ulquiorra's power-up. Ulquiorra's R2 is his ability, for all we know it's not a common arrancar trait like shinigami's bankai, so IMO we shouldn't consider it as a bankai-level power-up until Kubo confirms it.

Storywise I don't think Mindless Ichigo is the last power-up Ichigo will ever get in Bleach, but overrating Ulquiorra R2, by extension, overrates Mindless Ichigo and makes him almost invincible. Unless Kubo is planning to end Bleach soon, such a power-up doesn't make sense. Yes, Ulquiorra's #4 position is debatable but IMO considering him to be a #4 avoids unnecessary confusion.

Dint you see the difference in levels of curbstomping going on in that fight,
Unreleased Ulquiorra = Curbstomp lvl 1
Released Ulquiorra = Curbstomp lvl 3
Segunda Ulquiorra = Curbstomp lvl 6
Ichigonator = Curbstomp lvl 10 :P

We didnt overrate ichigo, coz we went by evidence, he curbstomped ulquiorra @ the highest lvl (lvl 10) without going on steroids or breaking a sweat...

Unless Ichigonator is uncontrollable, i would continue viewing him as Almost invincible (unless u cut his horn during cero)
but im sure shinji and the others, i.e Aizen, urahara, ishhin etc are monsters at tht level too.. soo maybe kubo is hinting something

Gran Maestro
September 14, 2009, 05:13 PM
Dint you see the difference in levels of curbstomping going on in that fight,
Unreleased Ulquiorra = Curbstomp lvl 1
Released Ulquiorra = Curbstomp lvl 3
Segunda Ulquiorra = Curbstomp lvl 6
Ichigonator = Curbstomp lvl 10 :P

We didnt overrate ichigo, coz we went by evidence, he curbstomped ulquiorra @ the highest lvl (lvl 10) without going on steroids or breaking a sweat...

So your evidence is "Segunda Ulquiorra = Curbstomp lvl 6" and you want people to show you evidence. Ok, here's your evidence "Byakuya = Curbstomp lvl 7", I've seen it in Zommari fight, therefore he is stronger than Ulquiorra. :D

The fact is we can't compare Byakuya with Ulquiorra reliably, Byakuya most likely is stronger than Nnoitra, therefore he is either stronger than Ulquiorra or he is somewhere between Ulquiorra and Nnoitra. Since top 4 is on another level, I believe Ulquiorra R2 is stronger than Byakuya but this is my personal opinion, I can't show any evidence, neither can you. ;)

Hachigeneral
September 14, 2009, 05:42 PM
The fact is we can't compare Byakuya with Ulquiorra reliably, Byakuya most likely is stronger than Nnoitra, therefore he is either stronger than Ulquiorra or he is somewhere between Ulquiorra and Nnoitra. Since top 4 is on another level, I believe Ulquiorra R2 is stronger than Byakuya but this is my personal opinion, I can't show any evidence, neither can you.

Even if Byakuya was stronger than Noit....man....Noitara isn't even close to R2 Ulq and many including myself believe he is far below even R1 Ulq. Beating Noitara is like beating one of Ulq's fraccions if he had one because Ulq is just that much more powerful. Lets not forget Noitara couldn't even kill off a wounded Grimmjow and wounded Ichigo and got humiliated by Nel before Zaraki came and put him out of is misery quite easily. I guess Byakuya was just a bump that Ichigo flattened out hundreds of chapters ago unfortunately. Ulq was just a bigger and stronger villain. Heh, to imply otherwise is to deny the feats and go against the golden rule that villains generally get stronger as the story progresses, not weaker.

The irony of this thread is that the poll doesn't even say R2 Ulq and Byakuya is getting stomped that badly. Though many believe that unreleased Ulq would wreck Byakuya anyway... ;)

Gran Maestro
September 14, 2009, 06:02 PM
Even if Byakuya was stronger than Noit....man....Noitara isn't even close to R2 Ulq and many including myself believe he is far below even R1 Ulq. Beating Noitara is like beating one of Ulq's fraccions if he had one because Ulq is just that much more powerful. Byakuya was just a bump that Ichigo flattened out hundreds of chapters ago unfortunately.


Every person who ignores Zangetsu or Hollow Ichigo's roles in Ichigo's victories (or draws) against Byakuya and Kenpachi should solve this paradox before attempting to use it as a basis for any argument:

Kenpachi > Nnoitra > Grimmjow > Bankai Ichigo > Shikai Ichigo > Kenpachi

Unless somebody argues Kenpachi is much stronger than himself (which is absurd), he/she must consider that shikai/bankai Ichigo may not be stronger than Kenpachi/Byakuya, this is why Kubo saved Ichigo by using Zangetsu and Hollow Ichigo as plot devices.

Ichigo is not a valid reference point for any comparison. :eyeroll
[hr]

Heh, to imply otherwise is to deny the feats and go against the golden rule that villains generally get stronger as the story progresses, not weaker.

The villains generally get stronger in a story arc, Byakuya was the final boss in SS arc, Ulquiorra is a boss in HM arc. ;)


The irony of this thread is that the poll doesn't even say R2 Ulq and Byakuya is getting stomped that badly. Though many believe that unreleased Ulq would wreck Byakuya anyway... ;)

If I make a poll "Character X vs Character Y" and if Character X overwhelms Character Y in number of votes, do you accept Character X is stronger? I have a couple of good ideas. :D

jaymizzo
September 15, 2009, 02:41 AM
So your evidence is "Segunda Ulquiorra = Curbstomp lvl 6" and you want people to show you evidence. Ok, here's your evidence "Byakuya = Curbstomp lvl 7", I've seen it in Zommari fight, therefore he is stronger than Ulquiorra. :D

The fact is we can't compare Byakuya with Ulquiorra reliably, Byakuya most likely is stronger than Nnoitra, therefore he is either stronger than Ulquiorra or he is somewhere between Ulquiorra and Nnoitra. Since top 4 is on another level, I believe Ulquiorra R2 is stronger than Byakuya but this is my personal opinion, I can't show any evidence, neither can you. ;)

dude take a joke -.-
[hr]

So your evidence is "Segunda Ulquiorra = Curbstomp lvl 6" and you want people to show you evidence. Ok, here's your evidence "Byakuya = Curbstomp lvl 7", I've seen it in Zommari fight, therefore he is stronger than Ulquiorra. :D

The fact is we can't compare Byakuya with Ulquiorra reliably, Byakuya most likely is stronger than Nnoitra, therefore he is either stronger than Ulquiorra or he is somewhere between Ulquiorra and Nnoitra. Since top 4 is on another level, I believe Ulquiorra R2 is stronger than Byakuya but this is my personal opinion, I can't show any evidence, neither can you. ;)

I can, since most of u say byakuya beat ichigo (which he did not, coz technically ichigo beat him) and ulquiorra in al stages curbstompd ichigo to a level tht ichigo had to rely on pure instincts..

If we use ichigo as a measuring bar or w/e Ulquiorra would win.. If we note the power diff btn noitorra - ulquiorra.. it is evident tht he is waaaaaay more powerfull..
So Byakuya looses..

Gran Maestro
September 15, 2009, 03:51 AM
I can, since most of u say byakuya beat ichigo (which he did not, coz technically ichigo beat him)

Ichigo technically beat Ulquiorra as well. Ichigo can & will technically beat everybody because he is the main protagonist.


and ulquiorra in al stages curbstompd ichigo to a level tht ichigo had to rely on pure instincts..

Ichigo loses, Ichigo gets outside (ok, inside :) ) help, Ichigo wins, do you see a pattern? Ichigo got help from his strongest form this time but this form was an overkill compared to his other forms, so we still have no reference point.


If we use ichigo as a measuring bar or w/e Ulquiorra would win.. If we note the power diff btn noitorra - ulquiorra.. it is evident tht he is waaaaaay more powerfull..

Guys, please do not make me repeat myself, Ichigo is not a valid reference point for any comparison:


Every person who ignores Zangetsu or Hollow Ichigo's roles in Ichigo's victories (or draws) against Byakuya and Kenpachi should solve this paradox before attempting to use it as a basis for any argument:

Kenpachi > Nnoitra > Grimmjow > Bankai Ichigo > Shikai Ichigo > Kenpachi

Unless somebody argues Kenpachi is much stronger than himself (which is absurd), he/she must consider that shikai/bankai Ichigo may not be stronger than Kenpachi/Byakuya, this is why Kubo saved Ichigo by using Zangetsu and Hollow Ichigo as plot devices.

Mifune_Taichou
September 15, 2009, 08:12 AM
Ichigo technically beat Ulquiorra as well. Ichigo can & will technically beat everybody because he is the main protagonist.



Ichigo loses, Ichigo gets outside (ok, inside :) ) help, Ichigo wins, do you see a pattern? Ichigo got help from his strongest form this time but this form was an overkill compared to his other forms, so we still have no reference point.



Guys, please do not make me repeat myself, Ichigo is not a valid reference point for any comparison:

That last bit was very good. If you use Ichigo as reference you come up with retarded things like this:

Shikai Ichigo> Kenpachi>Nnoitora>Grimmjow(so why then did ichigo need bankai and a mask huh?)>Bankai ichigo>Byakuya.

If you use Ichigo as ref it would appear that Ichigo in shikai is stronger thanen he is in bankai as well as stronger than Byakuya in bankai(and nnoitora and grimmjow). clearly a load of bull.

beastboy
September 15, 2009, 11:33 AM
well, don't count ichigo's battle, other wise kenpaichi would be totally beaten by Nnoitra, I will put it step by step:

SPEED: Unreleased Ulqui is pretty fast, but byakuya is on pair with yoruichi, and is after image technique could be usefull, agains second etapa, I've to say that second etapa ulquiorra and shirosaki were the more overpowered guys in the manga, but byakuya is smarter than ulquiorra, so he could just use a barrier bakudo and then lauch an throwable kidou, and then senbonzakura kageyoshi, I don't think senbonzakura is faster than ulqui but if he used senkei to defend himself, I guess no one would break through it, and then he could do a surprise atack, I voted Byakuya but My guess is DRAW

Lunatic Scream
September 15, 2009, 12:34 PM
Not even a competition. Ulquiorra seemed to have more raw power than Halibel and Barragan at his peak. Ichigo and Byakuya are (roughly) parallel in strength, and Ichigo got curb stomped even without Ulquiorra's second release. It's not a matter of skill or ability, it's really just a matter of pure reiatsu in this one.

Mifune_Taichou
September 15, 2009, 03:21 PM
Not even a competition. Ulquiorra seemed to have more raw power than Halibel and Barragan at his peak. Ichigo and Byakuya are (roughly) parallel in strength, and Ichigo got curb stomped even without Ulquiorra's second release. It's not a matter of skill or ability, it's really just a matter of pure reiatsu in this one.

I would have to say thats wrong. Skill matters a lot. Hallibell is meant to have more reiatsu than Hitsugaya but he whipped her sorry fish ass because he was more skilled.

Also Ulquiorra having more reiatsu or distructive power than Hallibell and Barragan is not confirmed, so its speculation not fact.

kkck
September 15, 2009, 04:39 PM
I would have to say thats wrong. Skill matters a lot. Hallibell is meant to have more reiatsu than Hitsugaya but he whipped her sorry fish ass because he was more skilled.

Also Ulquiorra having more reiatsu or distructive power than Hallibell and Barragan is not confirmed, so its speculation not fact.

I don't think skill is the proper word. If anything I would say the reason for which hitsugaya managed to corner harribel is the nature of his power. We know harribel is superior to harribel in terms of raw power and physical prowess and I see no reason for either one to be superior in terms of skill or overall technique. Hitsugaya simply had a power which gave him an inherent advantage over harribel(which seems to be ice that won't melt).

Mifune_Taichou
September 16, 2009, 03:59 PM
I don't think skill is the proper word. If anything I would say the reason for which hitsugaya managed to corner harribel is the nature of his power. We know harribel is superior to harribel in terms of raw power and physical prowess and I see no reason for either one to be superior in terms of skill or overall technique. Hitsugaya simply had a power which gave him an inherent advantage over harribel(which seems to be ice that won't melt).

I dont really think that Hitsugaya having an elemental advantage is a valid argument at all. Ice turns to water and water to ice. They are equal. The only reason he won could be because he had a better control over his power(hence skill) or his powers were simply greater. surely you see that controlling ice couldnt possibly give him an advantage-its two sides of the same coin. That makes no sense at all. The only explanation is that hed mastered his powers to a degree that allowed him to hit her with a move she couldnt block or counter.

btw where are people getting this thing about her being better in terms of strenght speed and close quarters skill? In the manga(and not anime which had more) I dont remember seeing anything that indicated a gap in their skills apart from when hitsugaya was distracted due to Hinamori. I could be wrong but if I am I would apreciate it if someone showed me a page to prove it because i dont remember that. I think people are still under the impression that she managed to cut him when she released which of course she didnt-he outmaneuvered her then as well. Fact if if she was above his level at all she would have landed one good hit which she hasnt been able to do. She was too busy mouthing off.

What this all leads up to is skill. When it comes to Ulquiorra v Byakuya I firmly believe that Byakuya's mastery is supperior. When Byakuya and Ichigo fought sword to sword in senkei Byakuya was levels above him. When Ichigo fought sword to sword with Ulquiorra he was at least his equal. Arrancar in general, apart from Starrk, seem to rely exclusively on explosive speed and power to overwhealm opponents. When confronted with the experienced and skilled captains they have invariably failed. Barragan being an exception here-his ability was such that he was virtually invulnerable to anything but energy attacks or what Hachi did. It was a bad match for Soi Fon but if she had fought any other espada (apart from starrk) she would most likely curbstomp them.

beastboy
October 11, 2009, 04:30 PM
Just to say that:
Ulqui said that even if Ichigo bit him, he would have to fight 3 stronger guys!!
So Ulqui<harribel<barragan<stark!!

And to be sincere I don't think byakuya fighted seriously against ichigo.. cause he wasn't at is best meantaly!!
And a strong mind makes a strong body!!

~@mifune
Hell yeah.. Hitsu can control water but harri could control Ice.. so they were equal in terms of power.. but arrancar are shinigami wannabes.. ahaha

faisfa1
October 12, 2009, 09:18 AM
After the ichi ulqui fight i thought there is no way that byakuya beats ulqui. However, after watching how the battles turned out on earth, i don't think it's a stretch for byakuya to be stronger than ulqui. If soifon and hitsu could fight with 2&3 and shunsui could defeat #1 with just shikai, certain byakuya could hold his own against #4

Ozehro
October 16, 2009, 02:06 AM
..Ulqui said that even if Ichigo bit him, he would have to fight 3 stronger guys!! So Ulqui<harribel<barragan<stark!!

How do you know he wasn't referring to his first release.
because official with what Aizen has seen, he is the 4th strongest.
but Aizen hasn't seen the second release.

beastboy
October 16, 2009, 12:00 PM
Just imagine.. You're fighting against me.. I'm the strongest.. but instead of saying that I'm the strongest I say:
You'll have to fight against 3 stronger fighters than me..

And Wait now... damn week end rulle... but if you've seen that last page you know what I'm talking about!!

Ozehro
October 16, 2009, 07:45 PM
Just imagine.. You're fighting against me.. I'm the strongest.. but instead of saying that I'm the strongest I say:
You'll have to fight against 3 stronger fighters than me..

And Wait now... damn week end rulle... but if you've seen that last page you know what I'm talking about!!

ahhh but you have take in to account that Ulquiorra has kept his
release a secret. He out right said not even Aizen has seen it.
So after showing Ichigo the number 4 tattoo, it would be strange and
out of character, if Ulquiorra started to lecture Ichigo about how he's
actually the strongest.

Ulquiorra: I'm the strongest espada.
Ichigo: Oh really? then what's with the number 4 tattoo?
Ulquiorra:Oh that doesn't mean a thing because Aizen hasn't seen
my strongest form..
Ichigo:-_- sure Ulquiorra...whatever you say...

/end failed attempt at humour.lol.

Ulquiorra simply had no obligation to reveal a secret to an unknown
shinigami, when he didn't even disclose it to his boss.

Random101
October 16, 2009, 07:51 PM
Not seeing does not equal keeping it a secret. Not seeing it just means not seeing it. Given they don't walk around released, and even Ulquiorra's base release is forbidden under the dome, where Aizen likes to hang, there'd be damn good reason not to have seen it. Not nearly enough information to call anything. Similarly that same logic kinda screws you over, as he DID reveal said information to Ichigo, despite his already winning by and far.

Ozehro
October 16, 2009, 08:00 PM
Not seeing does not equal keeping it a secret. Not seeing it just means not seeing it. Given they don't walk around released, and even Ulquiorra's base release is forbidden under the dome, where Aizen likes to hang, there'd be damn good reason not to have seen it. Not nearly enough information to call anything. Similarly that same logic kinda screws you over, as he DID reveal said information to Ichigo, despite his already winning by and far.

lol how do you know something without observation?
are you saying Aizen is omniscient? He had to send two espada
just to check whether Ichigo is a threat. Then he had to view
Ulquiorra's data on Orihime to figure out what sort of ability it was.
Aizen is a genius but not omniscient. The second time revealing
his secret was most likely out of his frustrations. It seems Ulquiorra
was breaking apart by his frustrations with Ichigo.

Random101
October 16, 2009, 08:03 PM
Aizen doesn't have to be Omniscient. He just has to know about it. Nothing is saying he doesn't know. Nothing is saying he does. You don't have a case to argue that either way without more information.

Similarly, he certainly seemed to know a hell of a lot of odd things about Ichigo that he did not see, like his Hollowification for instance, despite not seeing the fight with Byakuya.

Ozehro
October 16, 2009, 08:07 PM
The case currently favours the stance that he doesn't know.
because it was said he hasn't seen it. when info get's released that he did
know then the stance will change.

Random101
October 16, 2009, 08:13 PM
It favors no stance, hence the point. Not REMOTELY a solid enough case for you to build anything with that. It's certainly a possibility, but without more information, you can't remotely call it canon. Particularly since Aizen already has a habit for knowing things he hasn't, nor could possibly, have seen.

Such as Urahara experimenting with, say, HOLLOWIFICATION perhaps?

Ozehro
October 16, 2009, 08:19 PM
That's because it was revealed that he has been accessing restricted
documents via some library or something. It was revealed that he
had been studying the royal key and it's creation.

and contrary to your view, evidence as of now simply stands in favour
that he doesn't know. why? because he hasn't seen it. Nothing to suggest
otherwise. I mean yes possibilities are endless, but the possibility of
him not knowing is currently favoured. When more info comes the stance can
change.

Random101
October 16, 2009, 08:20 PM
Uh, no, I'm talking about back in the turn back the pendulum arc. PRIOR to those records being made. He outright said he'd thought as such since the moment he saw him.

Ozehro
October 16, 2009, 08:21 PM
So what? we are talking about actual evidence, and for the case whether
or not Aizen knows about S.E.
currently the evidence favours that Aizen doesn't know for he hasn't seen it.
simple as that. There's no other evidence given in regards to S.E and Aizen.

niblack89
October 17, 2009, 10:53 AM
Who ever said that Byakuya could even light a candle to Ulquiorra is very much miss informed I'm sure Byakuya has gotten stronger since Ichigo. But so has Ichigo's Bankai.

The facts still remain that Grimjow greatly out matched Ichigos Bankai (In speed and power) and I'm sure that his spiritual pressure weakness was gone around that time.

Ulquiorra who was faster and stronger than Grimjow unreleased not by that much it seems. Ichigo just Bankai was almost on par with Ulquiorra when before he wasn't.

Now my whole point. Now like I said Byakuya may have gotten stronger but I'm sure that if so he wouldn't have gotten stronger that Ichigo's Bankai. Byakuya would defiantly need Bankai for Ulquiorra sealed. when sealed come on. If Ichigo can defeat his Bankai while only in Bankai. Than Imagine with his mask on. Mask on He could just I mean just barely keep up to released Ulquiorra and there power was wasn't even a match. He can take a full powered masked Black Getsuga tensho and wasn't even phased. Byakuya wouldn't even have known of a second release.

I believe that Byakuya is up there stronger than Soifon and Hitsugata. He is part of a high ranked clan so power comes natural and he is a genius who learn flash moves from Yourchi but he can not win this match.

beastboy
October 17, 2009, 03:56 PM
WoW.. Soifon and Hitsu could match the 2 and 3 espada, but byakuya wich is stronger than Soifon and Hitsu couldn't "light a candle to ulquiorra"!!

You don't realy make sense!!

ps: I know that Ulqui has a 2nd realease but I haven't seen him live and colours.. just drawed...
So Aizen could have seen that release through that eye power of Ulqui... but he didn't see it live and colours..

niblack89
October 17, 2009, 09:02 PM
WoW.. Soifon and Hitsu could match the 2 and 3 espada, but byakuya wich is stronger than Soifon and Hitsu couldn't "light a candle to ulquiorra"!!

You don't realy make sense!!

ps: I know that Ulqui has a 2nd realease but I haven't seen him live and colours.. just drawed...
So Aizen could have seen that release through that eye power of Ulqui... but he didn't see it live and colours..

Soifon and Hitsuguya could match there Espada their attacks failed they both thought they defeated their Espada but they weren't even scratched here (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/364/11/) and here (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/364/12/). As proven Byakuya's bankai is useless if he can't keep up with his enemy's speed. Hell I'd say unmasked Ichigo and Byakuya are the same level and Masked Ichigo couldn't light a candle to Ulquiorra.

Even if he could Ulquiorra has another release form. Saying Byakuya can beat Ulquiorra is saying in like a year and a half Byakuya evolved into a god and in another year he will become greater than yamamotto then I can't imagin 100 years.

ganjabuss
October 18, 2009, 03:32 AM
byakuya will win if he fights in bankai first stage...will lose if he uses senkei or 3rd stage.....he has to damage ulq massively like he did zommari....surrounding him completely...even zommari was alive after taking so many hits...ulq has regeneration...so if byakuya can damage ulq's internal organs in the beginning...he'll win...otherwise he'll lose coz of power difference...and speed...

and i dont think ulq's quote abt 3 stronger than him holds much value after he showed seguanta[which other 3 didn't have and aizen didn't see it]...he was obviously trying to make ichigo lose hope...

KnuckleheadedNinja
October 24, 2009, 07:25 PM
Byakua is my fav character. But Ulquiorra was something else, i think he is clear stronger than Byakua. And if you ask me i think he was the strongest Espada.

El Samurai Guapo
October 24, 2009, 08:18 PM
I actually believe that Byakuya would be one of the best captains to defeat Ulquiorra. Ulquirra was pretty fast, and had some devastating ranged attacks, but Byakuya has the same and much more.

As far a speed goes, Byakuya is not only one of the best shinigami at using shunpo, but he also had learned some onmitsukido techniques from Yoruichi (such as the one he used to escape from Zommari's Gemelos Sonido). More importantly though, Byakuya has Ulquiorra outclassed when it comes to ranged attacks. Not only does his Bankai have multiple forms that can attack from a long distance, but he also has very powerful hadou spells. A simple byakurai or soukatsui from Byakuya is enormous, even without an incantation.

Sure Ulquiorra has got some pretty nasty long ranged attacks of his own like cero oscuras and lanza del relampago, but Byakuya has bakudou for this. If danku can block a Hiryuu Gekizoku Shinten Raiho, then it can stop Ulquiorra's attacks, no doubt.

All in all I say Byakuya wins 9/10 times, just by using his kidou alone. I've yet too see anyone break out of a rikujou kouro or sajyou sabaku instantly, so by simply binding Ulquiorra with either of those then hitting him with a full incantation byakurai (which coming form Byakuya would be HUGE) Ulquiorra would be destroyed. Although Ulquiorra can regenerate his limbs and outer parts, his organs and brain cannot be restored, which results in Ulquiorra dying.

Then of course there's senkei, and although some people here say he can't do this, he (Byakuya) implied that he could, and it is pretty obvious that the reason for the thousand or so floating swords is that they can be simultaneously sent to skewer an enemy at will. Otherwise, what is the purpose of them being there? A decoration? Come on!

Random101
October 24, 2009, 08:43 PM
Byakurai is way too weak for a massive kill. A precise shot to the heart or other important organ MAYBE, but recall it's only a level 4 spell. Now hitting with a real heavy hitter at least past the 60s, now you got something to argue there.

Raizen
October 28, 2009, 02:41 PM
Who ever said that Byakuya could even light a candle to Ulquiorra is very much miss informed I'm sure Byakuya has gotten stronger since Ichigo. But so has Ichigo's Bankai.

The facts still remain that Grimjow greatly out matched Ichigos Bankai (In speed and power) and I'm sure that his spiritual pressure weakness was gone around that time.

Ulquiorra who was faster and stronger than Grimjow unreleased not by that much it seems. Ichigo just Bankai was almost on par with Ulquiorra when before he wasn't.

Now my whole point. Now like I said Byakuya may have gotten stronger but I'm sure that if so he wouldn't have gotten stronger that Ichigo's Bankai. Byakuya would defiantly need Bankai for Ulquiorra sealed. when sealed come on. If Ichigo can defeat his Bankai while only in Bankai. Than Imagine with his mask on. Mask on He could just I mean just barely keep up to released Ulquiorra and there power was wasn't even a match. He can take a full powered masked Black Getsuga tensho and wasn't even phased. Byakuya wouldn't even have known of a second release.

I believe that Byakuya is up there stronger than Soifon and Hitsugata. He is part of a high ranked clan so power comes natural and he is a genius who learn flash moves from Yourchi but he can not win this match.
The only reason ichigo got the advantage against byakuya in SS was b/c his speed was the perfect counter to byakuya. But the moment byakuya got serious, ichigo got screwed and needed his hollow's help. Ichi won only due to his hollow, the same way it was during the ulqui fight.

Furthermore, you cannot compare feats like that. I will use Gran's post

Every person who ignores Zangetsu or Hollow Ichigo's roles in Ichigo's victories (or draws) against Byakuya and Kenpachi should solve this paradox before attempting to use it as a basis for any argument:

Kenpachi > Nnoitra > Grimmjow > Bankai Ichigo > Shikai Ichigo > Kenpachi

Unless somebody argues Kenpachi is much stronger than himself (which is absurd), he/she must consider that shikai/bankai Ichigo may not be stronger than Kenpachi/Byakuya, this is why Kubo saved Ichigo by using Zangetsu and Hollow Ichigo as plot devices.

As seen here, using ichi's battles as a measuring point will only mess up the power level in bleach. Ichi has been said to have fluctuating SP. He can be as low as weakling s like chad to stronger than most espadas. How his level is has to do with many factors and factors that we can't distinguish
[hr]

Byakurai is way too weak for a massive kill. A precise shot to the heart or other important organ MAYBE, but recall it's only a level 4 spell. Now hitting with a real heavy hitter at least past the 60s, now you got something to argue there.
The level just demonstrate how difficult it is to perform. A skilled hado user (like byakuya) can use a level 4 byakurai stronger than a low level kido user using a level 99 bakudo.

El Samurai Guapo
October 28, 2009, 07:48 PM
The only reason ichigo got the advantage against byakuya in SS was b/c his speed was the perfect counter to byakuya. But the moment byakuya got serious, ichigo got screwed and needed his hollow's help. Ichi won only due to his hollow, the same way it was during the ulqui fight.

Furthermore, you cannot compare feats like that. I will use Gran's post


As seen here, using ichi's battles as a measuring point will only mess up the power level in bleach. Ichi has been said to have fluctuating SP. He can be as low as weakling s like chad to stronger than most espadas. How his level is has to do with many factors and factors that we can't distinguish
<hr noshade size="1">

The level just demonstrate how difficult it is to perform. A skilled hado user (like byakuya) can use a level 4 byakurai stronger than a low level kido user using a level 99 bakudo.

I'd just like to add to Raizen's post by saying that the fight between Byakuya and Ichigo ended in a draw. To whoever believes Ichigo won, sure Byakuya told Ichigo that he won, but come off it, if it was really a fight to the death rather than shunpo-ing away Byakuya would have finished Ichigo off with a hadou.

About Ichigo's speed being the perfect counter to senbonzakura kageyoshi - it is not. Speed is a non-issue. Remember what Byakuya did to Renji? He binded him in with bakudou 61, and then used his bankai while Renji couldn't move. Byakuya could have easily done the same to Ichigo.

Random101
October 28, 2009, 08:52 PM
The level just demonstrate how difficult it is to perform. A skilled hado user (like byakuya) can use a level 4 byakurai stronger than a low level kido user using a level 99 bakudo.
Well duh. The thing is it's still a level 4, a level 4 that even at it's most potent is just a concentrated beam of lightning forwards. You aren't going to get, say Flying Dragon Thunder Roar Canon (Man that is a mouthful, and I'm not sure I got it all), that level 82 kido level output from that.

Forever_Melody
October 28, 2009, 09:40 PM
Well duh. The thing is it's still a level 4, a level 4 that even at it's most potent is just a concentrated beam of lightning forwards. You aren't going to get, say Flying Dragon Thunder Roar Canon (Man that is a mouthful, and I'm not sure I got it all), that level 82 kido level output from that.

Profiency greatly affects the output of a Kidou. I wouldn't necessarily say that Hadou#4 can beat Hadou#99, but a proficient Kidou user can make a lower spell equal/surpass the strength of a higher spell made by a less proficient user. A 90 level gap is a bit large I admit, but something like a 30 level gap has been shown to us in the manga.

For example, Rukia used Hadou #63(with incantation) here (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/266/16/) and we see the destruction level here (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/266/17/). Now compare the destructive blast with Byakuya's Hadou #33(without incantation) used here (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/379/20/). Byakuya's spell, while still being 30 levels lower, provides a greater amount of destructive force than Rukia's(considering how BIG Yammi is in his Ressurecion, a blast which can equal him in size is HUGE).

While your example of Byakurai is correct considering Byakurai is a concentrated blast(and therefore its destructive scope is limited), I have to agree with Raizen that Byakuya's mastery of it can make it a deadly asset.

Raizen
October 28, 2009, 10:54 PM
Well duh. The thing is it's still a level 4, a level 4 that even at it's most potent is just a concentrated beam of lightning forwards. You aren't going to get, say Flying Dragon Thunder Roar Canon (Man that is a mouthful, and I'm not sure I got it all), that level 82 kido level output from that.
Saying it is equal or stronger than a level 99 was a bit of a stretch, I admit. But my point is that the power of the kido is based on the user casting it. Byakuya's byakurai is a concentrated attack. The attack is focused in place so the attack is more deadly. Here it easily pierced ichigo
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/165/12/

El Samurai Guapo
October 28, 2009, 11:19 PM
Saying it is equal or stronger than a level 99 was a bit of a stretch, I admit. But my point is that the power of the kido is based on the user casting it. Byakuya's byakurai is a concentrated attack. The attack is focused in place so the attack is more deadly. Here it easily pierced ichigo
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/165/12/

Also note that the byakurai he used against Ichigo was without the incantation. I originally said that Byakuya could kill Ulquiorra by shooting him with a byakurai with the incantation. I will say though that the byakurai looked way more powerful and impressive in the anime. In the manga it simply looks like a thin little line.


For example, Rukia used Hadou #63(with incantation) here and we see the destruction level here. Now compare the destructive blast with Byakuya's Hadou #33(without incantation) used here. Byakuya's spell, while still being 30 levels lower, provides a greater amount of destructive force than Rukia's(considering how BIG Yammi is in his Ressurecion, a blast which can equal him in size is HUGE).

I thought souren soukatsui was hadou no 73 not 63. That's what Rukia says in the anime anyway.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuGq9IzP5dI

I know the text is in spanish but you can clearly hear she says hadou no nana juu san (73). So...which is correct? That particular translation of the manga or the anime?

By the way, Byakuya also used hadou 33 on Renji and it was also way bigger than Rukia's souren soukatsui.

Random101
October 28, 2009, 11:24 PM
Saying it is equal or stronger than a level 99 was a bit of a stretch, I admit. But my point is that the power of the kido is based on the user casting it. Byakuya's byakurai is a concentrated attack. The attack is focused in place so the attack is more deadly. Here it easily pierced ichigo
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/165/12/
Yes, it's a concentrated attack, that was my point. The original post I responded to said/implied that with incantation it would be huge, which goes against what that attack is, quite simply a concentrated beam of lightning. As such you aren't going to get a mass blast on the level of say ceros with it, nor can you really get an outright kill unless you hit a vital area with it. Hence my point.

Raizen
October 28, 2009, 11:47 PM
Byakurai to me is the same is the death beam from DBZ.
It doesn't need to be big. It is sharp enough to pierce just about anything

Forever_Melody
October 29, 2009, 09:19 AM
Also note that the byakurai he used against Ichigo was without the incantation. I originally said that Byakuya could kill Ulquiorra by shooting him with a byakurai with the incantation. I will say though that the byakurai looked way more powerful and impressive in the anime. In the manga it simply looks like a thin little line.



I thought souren soukatsui was hadou no 73 not 63. That's what Rukia says in the anime anyway.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuGq9IzP5dI

I know the text is in spanish but you can clearly hear she says hadou no nana juu san (73). So...which is correct? That particular translation of the manga or the anime?

By the way, Byakuya also used hadou 33 on Renji and it was also way bigger than Rukia's souren soukatsui.

I think it's an anime mistake because according to all the amnga chapters I've read(including the onemanga and mangafox versions) and according to both translations we have here on MH(link (http://mangahelpers.com/t/winterlion/releases/2781) and link (http://mangahelpers.com/t/molokidan/releases/8755)), Rukia clearly names her Hadou #63.


Yes, it's a concentrated attack, that was my point. The original post I responded to said/implied that with incantation it would be huge, which goes against what that attack is, quite simply a concentrated beam of lightning. As such you aren't going to get a mass blast on the level of say ceros with it, nor can you really get an outright kill unless you hit a vital area with it. Hence my point.

Well I understand your point, but that doesn't make it any less deadly, especially in the hands of someone like Byakuya who can fire it in an instant. Bleach gets caught up in big flashy attacks, but pinpoint precision attacks can also kill just as easily.

El Samurai Guapo
October 29, 2009, 04:29 PM
I think it's an anime mistake because according to all the amnga chapters I've read(including the onemanga and mangafox versions) and according to both translations we have here on MH(link (http://mangahelpers.com/t/winterlion/releases/2781) and link (http://mangahelpers.com/t/molokidan/releases/8755)), Rukia clearly names her Hadou #63.


That's interesting, who would have thought that the anime producers would have screwed up like that. Either way, 63 or 73 that's still a pretty high level spell with incantation, and Byakuya's simple #33 soukatsui easily trumps Rukia's, even without an incantation.

The power of Kidou is definitely more about who is casting it rather than the level of the spell. Perhaps a Hiryuu Gekizoku Shinten Raiho from Byakuya would be smaller than Tessai's for instance, that's why he sticks to using lower numbered kidou which for him are already powerful enough.

Tygulopk
October 29, 2009, 05:31 PM
Ulquiorra
If not only for the fact that 1st release Ulquiorra stomped masked Ichigo, and an unreleased Ulquiorra is about on par with Ichigo's bankai.
Plus, we don't exactly know how much Segunda Etapa increases Ulquiorra's power.

And to the people who say Ulquiorra could be fried by a Byakurai, really? There's definatly some Byakuya fanboyism there.
A incantationless Byakurai only shot a small hole into Ichigo, and that was when his body was weakened from bankai. If Byakuya can pull off an incantation hadou 88+, then we'll think about a one-shot kill.

El Samurai Guapo
October 29, 2009, 06:44 PM
And to the people who say Ulquiorra could be fried by a Byakurai, really? There's definatly some Byakuya fanboyism there.

Byakuya fanboyism? Lol, well looking at the picture you have on your sig it isn't hard to guess which character you're a fanboy of.


A incantationless Byakurai only shot a small hole into Ichigo, and that was when his body was weakened from bankai. If Byakuya can pull off an incantation hadou 88+, then we'll think about a one-shot kill.

So what if it is a small beam, all Byakuya has to do is aim it at his opponents head and destroy their brain with it. Proof that Byakuya did not want to kill Ichigo when they fought, otherwise he would have shot him through the head or heart (not the shoulder).

Tygulopk
October 30, 2009, 12:04 AM
Byakuya fanboyism? Lol, well looking at the picture you have on your sig it isn't hard to guess which character you're a fanboy of.

Just because its in my sig doesn't mean I'm a fanboy of Ulquiorra



So what if it is a small beam, all Byakuya has to do is aim it at his opponents head and destroy their brain with it. Proof that Byakuya did not want to kill Ichigo when they fought, otherwise he would have shot him through the head or heart (not the shoulder).
I'll give you that one.
Although if Byakuya didn't want to kill Ichigo w/ Byakurai, why did he try to kill him MOMENTS AFTER?

El Samurai Guapo
October 30, 2009, 12:30 AM
Just because its in my sig doesn't mean I'm a fanboy of Ulquiorra


I'll give you that one.
Although if Byakuya didn't want to kill Ichigo w/ Byakurai, why did he try to kill him MOMENTS AFTER?

That is a good question. I personally don't believe that he (Byakuya) would have killed Ichigo. If he was going to kill him, he would have done it quickly, not slowly lifting up his sword in front of Ichigo and talking for a minute before bringing it down on him. My guess is he was just planning on cutting him across the chest or something to incapacitate him.

Or maybe Byakuya did plan on killing Ichigo, but he wanted to do it with his own blade rather than simply defeating Ichigo with kidou.

Forever_Melody
October 30, 2009, 09:49 AM
Byakuya is a haughty person by nature. I mean, the very fact that he didn't use his Senkei to outright tear Ichigo apart is proof to that. He most likely only wanted to kill Ichigo with a blade(in the style of an execution) rather than kill him by other means. To him, it'd probably carry a more symbolic meaning. It's the same with Zommari really: he ended up killing Zommari with his blade and the mention of "pride" rather than with his Bankai(as he originally intended to like with Ichigo).

Honestly, I think Byakuya could win against Ulquiorra.

Byakuya has definitely proven himself to be fast using Shunpo and even Onmitsukidou so Ulquiorra speed, while being difficult to match, shouldn't be impossibly problematic either. While Ichigo's Bankai did end up trumping Byakuya's Bankai in speed, Byakuya himself never really engaged Ichigo's full powered Bankai in the speed game so we can't compare who's actually faster(to be fair Byakuya was able to follow Ichigo on sight without that much issue, his Bankai was simply unable to catch him).

As for attack power, Ulquiorra's greatest asset is regeneration and arguably, Ichigo's only power pre-Ichigonator mode was Getsuga Tenshou. Byakuya has a far wider range of attack methods than Ichigo.

Defensively, I believe that Dankuu could hold some of Ulquiorra's attacks save maybe Lanzado. And even if they didn't hold, the wall would still provide a blow protection against the impact of the blasts.