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View Full Version : Fantasy Kuchiki Byakuya vs Toshiro Hitsugaya



En Yang Ji
June 19, 2009, 04:00 AM
Rules and conditions:

1. Fight takes place in the air.

Edit: Is there any way to go back and add a prefix?

Josear XIII
June 19, 2009, 08:30 AM
Dude you forgot to put the poll, but wait for my answer in a few hours

Black Lagoon
June 19, 2009, 09:36 AM
Toshiro can freeze Senbonzakura but i can't see him neither as a winner nor as loser

Eddy01741
June 19, 2009, 10:14 AM
I wouldn't say that Toshiro can freeze all of senbonzakura together, I mean, when have we seen toshiro freeze a zanpakutou?

I'll think this one over and reply later.

En Yang Ji
June 19, 2009, 03:07 PM
Imo I don't think Hitsugaya can just freeze senbonzakura. I mean, if he could freeze things without even touching them, why wouldn't he have just done that to everybody :(?If Hitsugaya has to touch them to freeze them he probably take severe damage before freezing them, at least he has a really fast reaction time.

There's also senki and rikoujou koro. I think Byakuya would win.

kkck
June 19, 2009, 03:30 PM
Byakuya can easily counter the technique hitsu used against harribel with senbonsakura. He does not even need bankai for that.

Darth Executor
June 19, 2009, 04:07 PM
Hitsu, easily. Their bankais are similar, but when it comes to reasonable (I'm not including aizen's fight because aizen is way out of either of them's league) opponents:

* Hitsu nearly lost to shawlong, but that was under the limit. Once the limit was lifted it was an instant kill
* hitsu took out the 6th espada on one hit. Would've killed him if the negacion hadn't saved him. Granted, he did have time to prepare the attack but still...
* has performed better so far against the 3rd espada than byakuya did against the 7th

Byakuya
* lost to a newbie with bankai who got murdered by the 4th espada while in bankai and with good mastery of his hollow form
* lost an arm and a leg (temporarily) to the 7th espada

I think the winner is clear.

En Yang Ji
June 19, 2009, 04:25 PM
Hitsu, easily. Their bankais are similar, but when it comes to reasonable (I'm not including aizen's fight because aizen is way out of either of them's league) opponents:

* Hitsu nearly lost to shawlong, but that was under the limit. Once the limit was lifted it was an instant kill
* hitsu took out the 6th espada on one hit. Would've killed him if the negacion hadn't saved him. Granted, he did have time to prepare the attack but still...
* has performed better so far against the 3rd espada than byakuya did against the 7th

Byakuya
* lost to a newbie with bankai who got murdered by the 4th espada while in bankai and with good mastery of his hollow form
* lost an arm and a leg (temporarily) to the 7th espada

I think the winner is clear.

- Hitsu may have taken out Luppi in one hit, but Luppi didn't decide to finish him when had the advantage.

- Hitsugaya probably would have lost to Zommari

- Ichigo did lose badly to an unreleased Ulqui, but his battle is different than Hitsu's battle with Halibel. Halibel probably could murder Hitsu in close range combat, but their fighting a long range battle. Also Hitsu can defend against her attacks because he can turn her water into his ice.

- Hitsu hasn't visually damage Halibel.

kkck
June 19, 2009, 04:30 PM
Hitsu, easily. Their bankais are similar, but when it comes to reasonable (I'm not including aizen's fight because aizen is way out of either of them's league) opponents:

* Hitsu nearly lost to shawlong, but that was under the limit. Once the limit was lifted it was an instant kill
* hitsu took out the 6th espada on one hit. Would've killed him if the negacion hadn't saved him. Granted, he did have time to prepare the attack but still...
* has performed better so far against the 3rd espada than byakuya did against the 7th

Byakuya
* lost to a newbie with bankai who got murdered by the 4th espada while in bankai and with good mastery of his hollow form
* lost an arm and a leg (temporarily) to the 7th espada

I think the winner is clear.

I completely disagree on that. Byakuya didn't "win" against zomari, he owned him so bad that it can barely be considered a fight. Byakuya merely used the simplest form of his bankai to fight while hitsugaya was forced to use a technique which he claims he cannot control. of course there is a clear power difference between zomari and harribel which makes comparing both fights some murky business....

Also, hitsugaya won't have an elemental advantage against byakuya which in comparison was key to his fight with harribel. Byakuya did have a convenient bankai but its not like he needed it after he realized zomari's ability was similar to kido. I think byakuya has better kido, and speed than hitsugaya and he can use his bankai to block even the little pieces of heaven hitsugaya can so conviniently throw at him.
[hr]

- Hitsu may have taken out Luppi in one hit, but Luppi didn't decide to finish him when had the advantage.

- Hitsugaya probably would have lost to Zommari

- Ichigo did lose badly to an unreleased Ulqui, but his battle is different than Hitsu's battle with Halibel. Halibel probably could murder Hitsu in close range combat, but their fighting a long range battle. Also Hitsu can defend against her attacks because he can turn her water into his ice.

- Hitsu hasn't visually damage Halibel.

-There is no guarantee luppi could have killed hitsugaya had he continued his attack.
-Hitsugaya could have used water in a similar way byakuya used his bankai

Onomatopoeia
June 19, 2009, 04:56 PM
@Darth Executor:

Byakuya lost one of his limbs protecting Rukia and the other because it was the first time Zommari used his ability(it would have been hard to protect yourself against something like that, especially if it was the first time, can't protect yourself from something you don't know about).

And then proceeded to destroy the seventh Espada. Yeah...that would go under pretty good...

R4zr
June 19, 2009, 05:31 PM
Byakuya without a doubt. Better Kido, better speed, his bankai is strong against long-ranged fighters such as hitsugaya.

Ozehro
June 19, 2009, 09:55 PM
Hitsu, easily. Their bankais are similar, but when it comes to reasonable (I'm not including aizen's fight because aizen is way out of either of them's league) opponents:

* Hitsu nearly lost to shawlong, but that was under the limit. Once the limit was lifted it was an instant kill
* hitsu took out the 6th espada on one hit. Would've killed him if the negacion hadn't saved him. Granted, he did have time to prepare the attack but still...
* has performed better so far against the 3rd espada than byakuya did against the 7th

Byakuya
* lost to a newbie with bankai who got murdered by the 4th espada while in bankai and with good mastery of his hollow form
* lost an arm and a leg (temporarily) to the 7th espada

I think the winner is clear.

you are ignoring many aspects of each of those battles.

Luppi vs Hitsu
first Hitsu didn't simply take out luppi in one shot. he got beaten down
himself! and didn't appear for a significant amount of time.
if the difference between Hitsu and luppi are as large as you suggest then
he wouldn't have taken risks with the lives of his team mates.
Rangiku was seconds away before being punctured with needles!
the fact that Hitsu had to rely on such an elaborate technique to
deal with Luppi shows that it wasn't easy. far from it.

Then lets see Byakuya's side.

Byakuya vs Ichigo
The moment Byakuya used the true form of senbonzakura, i.e senkei
senbonzakura kageyoshi, Ichi started losing rapidly. this happened
the moment byakuya used it. and very quickly Ichigo became slower
than Byakuya eventhough senkei gives no speed increase!
so Byakuya was winning at full strength but shirosaki had to intervene.
and eventhen the man took 2 GT's and a sword strike from shirosaki
and still survived!

Byakuya vs Zommari
Zommari's abilities and Harribel's abilities are very different.
you can't fight both the same way. however the fact that zommari's
kido ability worked on Byakuya shows that there wasn;t a significant
difference in reiatsu between the two...

Hitsu vs Harribel
Hitsu was being crushed in his bankai by a sealed Harribel!
Hitsu won that fight because he had the better elemental control.
simple. that said she might still be alive...

however this is quite tought to chose from. eventhough Hitsu
had a poor performance in the past, you still can't ignore the
pwning against 3rd espada. which makes me feel they are roughly in
the same captain tier. but I'm going to go with Byakuya since
he's shown excellent kido abilities while we have seen very little from
Hitsugaya.

Mifune_Taichou
July 19, 2009, 12:10 PM
Previously I wouldnt have even considered this a contest-I would have imagined Byakuya would reduce Hitsugaya to dust( and I LIKE Hitsugaya).

But fair is fair and since the last few chapters with Hitsugaya in them and him using some new Techniques (Guncho Tsurara and Tenso Jurrin/Hyoten Hyokaso-the last one being admitedly very badass) its become more difficult to call in my oppinion. There is no doubt that without Hierro if Byakuya is caught in Hyoten Hyokaso or Sennen Hyoru hes dead. Theres also no doubt that Hitsugaya could probably freeze Senbonsakura's first form in Bankai but I cant see how he'll avoid getting scewered by Senkei. Also Byakuya seems much faster and more adept at using kidou, but Hitsugaya CAN fly and reforge his bankai..sooo ive put it to a poll.

Regardless my vote goes to Byakuya- I think his overall supperior mastery of shinigami combat and his own bankai will give him the win here. However it will be much closer now that Hitsugaya showed us that Hax finishing move he has. That makes me think that in 100 years he'll be out of Byakuya's league unless Byakuya improves.

En Yang Ji
July 19, 2009, 04:12 PM
I think Hitsugaya would put up a good fight, but lose. He probably couldn't freeze Byakuya's petals. It seems like there's only three ways he can freeze things:

1. Make contact with the sword.
2. Wait for there to be lots of moisture in the air
3. Use his ultimate move

At the beginning of the battle there wouldn't be that much moisture in the air so Hitsugaya wouldn't be able to freeze his petals. Byakuya would probably have the advantage at the beginning.

kkck
July 19, 2009, 05:01 PM
I think Hitsugaya would put up a good fight, but lose. He probably couldn't freeze Byakuya's petals. It seems like there's only three ways he can freeze things:

1. Make contact with the sword.
2. Wait for there to be lots of moisture in the air
3. Use his ultimate move

At the beginning of the battle there wouldn't be that much moisture in the air so Hitsugaya wouldn't be able to freeze his petals. Byakuya would probably have the advantage at the beginning.

hitsugaya did tell harribel he did not need to wait for the atmosphere to be filled with moisture though, he can just use his zampakuto at any time to create it.

I would think byakuya gets this one. Even if hitsugaya uses the technique he used against harribel, byakuya can just use a relatively small number of his bankai blades to shield himself. byakuya for the win.

Eddy01741
July 19, 2009, 09:53 PM
I disagree with those who said that if Hitsu gets the ice obelisk on Byakuya then it's an auto-win for him. We don't exactly know how his reiatsu compares to Hitsu's (that's generally the trend with ice, if your reiatsu is that much greater than the ice-users, you can break out of the ice). Not only do I doubt the auto-win for Hitsu if he gets the obelisk to work on Byakuya, but I doubt Byakuya would get trapped in the first place. His bankai is extremely balanced when in it's base mode (non-senkei/shukei), it serves to both attack and defend at the same time, not only that, but he's got overwhelming speed on his side, speed which Hitsugaya has not been shown to match

Then add in the kido and your beating the dead horse. The only time I remember Hitsu using kidou was when he made a barrier to protect Hinamori (the one that was hard to break from outside but easy from inside), Byakuya on the other hand has shown plenty of kidou (IIRC, Hadous: 4, 33, Bakudous: 61, 81), all of which were without incantation, all of which were plenty powerful (or in the case of bakudou 81, plenty good at blocking).

Byakuya seems like the clear winner to me.

Raizen
July 22, 2009, 03:47 PM
Byakuya is clearly the better fighter. He is skilled in all aspects of fighting and his bankai is incredible.
Hitsu would lose.

However, someone had a signature where byakuya's bankai was frozen by hitsu, does anyone know what scene is this from? But regardless, byakuya would still win

En Yang Ji
July 22, 2009, 04:16 PM
I've seen that too, I think it's from a game. Even if Hitsu could freeze Byakuya's bankai, I think he could win with just kido and his sword skills.

Darth Executor
July 22, 2009, 05:28 PM
Luppi vs Hitsu[/B]
first Hitsu didn't simply take out luppi in one shot. he got beaten down
himself!

That's the thing, he didn't get beaten down. He faked it to set up a 1 shot kill. People keep saying he got "beat down" but it's not in the manga. It shows him going down, only to later reveal what he was really up to.


Then lets see Byakuya's side.

Byakuya vs Ichigo
The moment Byakuya used the true form of senbonzakura, i.e senkei
senbonzakura kageyoshi, Ichi started losing rapidly. this happened
the moment byakuya used it. and very quickly Ichigo became slower
than Byakuya eventhough senkei gives no speed increase!
so Byakuya was winning at full strength but shirosaki had to intervene.
and eventhen the man took 2 GT's and a sword strike from shirosaki
and still survived!


Ichigo just got his bankai and couldn't even control his hollow form (and right now at least, he's stronger than shirosaki), and still beat byakuya. despite that, ulquiorra still destroyed him while hitsu held his own against hallibel and would've probably killed her if a VL hadn't rescued her.


Byakuya vs Zommari
Zommari's abilities and Harribel's abilities are very different.

I agree but the fact remains that hallibel's stronger and byakuya barely beat zommari.


you can't fight both the same way. however the fact that zommari's
kido ability worked on Byakuya shows that there wasn;t a significant
difference in reiatsu between the two...


Except there is absolutely no indication that zommari's ability depends on the difference between reiatsu.


Hitsu vs Harribel
Hitsu was being crushed in his bankai by a sealed Harribel!
Hitsu won that fight because he had the better elemental control.
simple. that said she might still be alive...


Hitsu was not being "crushed", nor was he crushed. He beat her then she was rescued before his ability could finish her off. That puts him clearly ahead of the way overrated byakuya.


however this is quite tought to chose from. eventhough Hitsu
had a poor performance in the past,

Hitsu didn't have a poor performance in the past apart from his fight with shawlong (i'm not counting the aizen fight since aizen just points a finger and a captain level shinigami drops).


but I'm going to go with Byakuya since he's shown excellent kido abilities while we have seen very little from Hitsugaya.

Byakuya's shown that he can overpower shinigami with little experience using their bankais and only survived one battle because his insufferable personality caused his enemy to want to torment him instead of just taking him out in one go and gave him time to come up with a countermeasure.

En Yang Ji
July 22, 2009, 05:59 PM
That's the thing, he didn't get beaten down. He faked it to set up a 1 shot kill. People keep saying he got "beat down" but it's not in the manga. It shows him going down, only to later reveal what he was really up to.

Ichigo just got his bankai and couldn't even control his hollow form (and right now at least, he's stronger than shirosaki), and still beat byakuya. despite that, ulquiorra still destroyed him while hitsu held his own against hallibel and would've probably killed her if a VL hadn't rescued her.

I agree but the fact remains that hallibel's stronger and byakuya barely beat zommari.

Except there is absolutely no indication that zommari's ability depends on the difference between reiatsu.

Hitsu was not being "crushed", nor was he crushed. He beat her then she was rescued before his ability could finish her off. That puts him clearly ahead of the way overrated byakuya.

Hitsu didn't have a poor performance in the past apart from his fight with shawlong (i'm not counting the aizen fight since aizen just points a finger and a captain level shinigami drops).

Byakuya's shown that he can overpower shinigami with little experience using their bankais and only survived one battle because his insufferable personality caused his enemy to want to torment him instead of just taking him out in one go and gave him time to come up with a countermeasure.

-Hitsugaya may not of been taken out in one hit, but probably took some damage and just recovered quickly. I don't think he was faking all of it.

-Ichigo's speed was the reason he had an advantage on Byakuya. Hitsugaya probably would of had the same problems Byakuya had with Ichigo and Ichigo had with Ulquiorra. The reason Hitsu could keep up with Halibel, is mostly because it was a favorable match-up.

- Hitsu, Probably would have a harder time beating Zommari than Byakuya.

Raizen
July 22, 2009, 06:22 PM
That's the thing, he didn't get beaten down. He faked it to set up a 1 shot kill. People keep saying he got "beat down" but it's not in the manga. It shows him going down, only to later reveal what he was really up to.
I agree. Hitsu went along with luppi. He used luppi's cockiness no his advantage. That was a win for hitsu


Ichigo just got his bankai and couldn't even control his hollow form (and right now at least, he's stronger than shirosaki), and still beat byakuya. despite that, ulquiorra still destroyed him while hitsu held his own against hallibel and would've probably killed her if a VL hadn't rescued her.
Ichi didn't need to control his hollow form. His hollow form showed that him going crazy is stronger than ichi trying to use the mask. Because shirosaki has no conscience and he does not care for pain. Thus making him deadlier. I personally don't think that ichi with the hollow mask is stronger than shirosaki.
Also, byakuya in that fight was clearly not serious. He was conflicted with the promises he made to his wife and his parents. He could have used byakurai on ichi's heart instead of his shoulders.
U can't compare the 2 fights like that


I agree but the fact remains that hallibel's stronger and byakuya barely beat zommari.

Except there is absolutely no indication that zommari's ability depends on the difference between reiatsu.
Byakuya destroyed zomari. He had no chance. Zomari knew that he was fighting a captain, so if he could have controlled byakuya completely he would have done so. Furthermore, if he could control everyone as u suggest, he would be stronger than even aizen. That is why I find that zomari can only control those weaker than he is.
Also, hitsu was the perfect opponent for halibel. They could both counter each other perfectly.


Hitsu was not being "crushed", nor was he crushed. He beat her then she was rescued before his ability could finish her off. That puts him clearly ahead of the way overrated byakuya.

Hitsu didn't have a poor performance in the past apart from his fight with shawlong (i'm not counting the aizen fight since aizen just points a finger and a captain level shinigami drops).
Yes I agree, hitsu did very well against halibel. But byakuya pwned zomari


Byakuya's shown that he can overpower shinigami with little experience using their bankais and only survived one battle because his insufferable personality caused his enemy to want to torment him instead of just taking him out in one go and gave him time to come up with a countermeasure.
Byakuya toyed with renji even with bankai. He pwned the 7th espada. Even after an exhausting battle, he shuunpo while ichi can barely stand, etc
Byakuya's fight with ichi was to me one of the best fights. Ichi's bankai just took him by suprise.

Hitsu is good, but he is still a novice as shunsui implied. Byakuya is much more proficient in the shinigami arts than hitsu

Ozehro
July 22, 2009, 10:47 PM
That's the thing, he didn't get beaten down. He faked it to set up a 1 shot kill. People keep saying he got "beat down" but it's not in the manga. It shows him going down, only to later reveal what he was really up to.


So Hitsguya purposely took a time out?
he purposely let Rangiku get almost punctured by hundred of needles?
you'd think a captain would have greater incentive than that.
but yeah it's just clear that Histugaya is not that strong.
against someone like luppi, he shouldn't have had to rely on such elaborate techniques to win. so yeah very doubtful that Histugaya could defeat Byakuya.

kkck
July 22, 2009, 10:54 PM
So Hitsguya purposely took a time out?
he purposely let Rangiku get almost punctured by hundred of needles?
you'd think a captain would have greater incentive than that.
but yeah it's just clear that Histugaya is not that strong.
against someone like luppi, he shouldn't have had to rely on such elaborate techniques to win. so yeah very doubtful that Histugaya could defeat Byakuya.

Either hitsugaya purposely took a timeout to use a technique that would definitely defeat luppy or someone used the dragon balls to bring back hitsugaya from the dead. The attack luppy did on hitsugaya was obviously ineffective, or not as effective as luppi thought. The fact that hitsugaya later on appears without a scratch proves it.

Even if luppi was not among the top espada, he was still a espada. I really doubt his strength was not really enough to be sexta(that does not nesesarily mean he was as strong as grimmjow though).

Ozehro
July 22, 2009, 11:35 PM
Either hitsugaya purposely took a timeout to use a technique that would definitely defeat luppy or someone used the dragon balls to bring back hitsugaya from the dead. The attack luppy did on hitsugaya was obviously ineffective, or not as effective as luppi thought. The fact that hitsugaya later on appears without a scratch proves it.

huh? I didn't say Hitsu was dead.lol. just that he took a strong attack
and went out of action for a significant period of time.
but still it proves that Hitsugaya needed an elaborate move to deal with
luppi. if Hitsu is that strong then that shouldn't have been the case.



Even if luppi was not among the top espada, he was still a espada. I really doubt his strength was not really enough to be sexta(that does not nesesarily mean he was as strong as grimmjow though).


no idea how luppi became sexta. he was absolutely no match to grimmjow.

kkck
July 22, 2009, 11:44 PM
huh? I didn't say Hitsu was dead.lol. just that he took a strong attack
and went out of action for a significant period of time.
but still it proves that Hitsugaya needed an elaborate move to deal with
luppi. if Hitsu is that strong then that shouldn't have been the case.

no idea how luppi became sexta. he was absolutely no match to grimmjow.

We have no real way of knowing whether hitsugaya could have defeated luppy in a more direct confrontation though. All we can do is speculate. Considering hitsugaya normally refrains from using the true power of his sword since he can't control it(I do think he did that against luppi), I would think hitsugaya would win should he use it.

Also, luppi does not need to be as strong or stronger than grimmjow to be sexta. Being stronger than zomari is way more than enough.

Ozehro
July 22, 2009, 11:53 PM
We have no real way of knowing whether hitsugaya could have defeated luppy in a more direct confrontation though. All we can do is speculate. Considering hitsugaya normally refrains from using the true power of his sword since he can't control it(I do think he did that against luppi), I would think hitsugaya would win should he use it.

Also, luppi does not need to be as strong or stronger than grimmjow to be sexta. Being stronger than zomari is way more than enough.

actually it does say something about Hitsugaya.
now if he was just fighting luppi by himself. as in if there weren't any other people caught in the fight then you are right. then we can't be sure whether hitsugaya was serious or not about using true power. but in the manga there were three other people that needed help. so it doesn't make sense for us to assume that Histugaya was hesitant to use true power. heck he used one elaborate move to deal with luppi. that alone shows he wasn't hesitant.

and for him to rely on such a time consuming move shows he isn;t that powerful. and yeah you are right about the sexta. as long as luppi is stronger than 7 then that's all that matters.

juice88
July 23, 2009, 03:19 AM
i dont care what no one says i think hitsugaya got beaten by luppi for the simple fact that he didnt react in time to save his own vice captain if he was really all good and capable then he would have saved her instead of let her die

Eddy01741
July 23, 2009, 03:32 AM
Wait, what?

First of all, you should care what others think, this is a debate....

Secondly, Hitsu didn't get beaten by Luppi, he won, just under dubious circumstances

Thirdly, he didn't react in time to save his VC and he let her die? What? Last I checked, Matsumoto was alive and kicking, she was the one that fought Halibel's fraccion after all.

Freeloadersan
July 23, 2009, 06:06 AM
Wait, what?

First of all, you should care what others think, this is a debate....

Secondly, Hitsu didn't get beaten by Luppi, he won, just under dubious circumstances

Thirdly, he didn't react in time to save his VC and he let her die? What? Last I checked, Matsumoto was alive and kicking, she was the one that fought Halibel's fraccion after all.

I think he's referring to how Urahara had to save her, otherwise she'd have been impaled. Here (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/233/11/)

En Yang Ji
July 23, 2009, 06:39 AM
I think this is a picture of Hitsugaya recovering and repairing his bankai, after Luppi's attack: http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/234/14/

Mifune_Taichou
July 23, 2009, 07:03 AM
I think this is a picture of Hitsugaya recovering and repairing his bankai, after Luppi's attack: http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/234/14/

Yh that looks like it. I dont see why this had turned into another luppi discussion. fact is which cannot be disputed no matter how much anyone tries -Hitsugaya beat Luppi and didnt even get a scratch on him. Why he chose to wait and do it like that we'll never know but the fact is that being hit by all these tentacles in what must have been Luppis strongest or one of his strongest attacks did absolutely nothing to him.

Anyway you look at it he owned the 6th espada. No one is saying it would be that easy against grimmjow(even though its more than likely that if he used the full force of his bankai like he did agains Hallibell Grimmjow would be toast). Luppi was 6th-get the hell over it. He was stronger than Zommari which makes him 6th-end of discussion.

Now to the real topic-will Hitsugaya beat Byakuya-No. I think Hitsugaya is much stronger than he is given credit for but I think the same of Byakuya-the only reason he "lost" to ichigo is because he didnt take him seriously. Even after the "loss" he could shunpo and obliderate Ichigo with Kido while Ichigo couldnt stay on his feet.

The fact is Byakuya's bankai is very well suited to defend and counter the majoruty of Hitsu's moves. Add to that better kidou and shunpo and id say Byakuya is teh clear winner-I'm not dissing Hitsu-I just think Byakuya is the 4th strongest captain (not counting Unohana unti she fights).

kkck
July 23, 2009, 09:59 AM
Now to the real topic-will Hitsugaya beat Byakuya-No. I think Hitsugaya is much stronger than he is given credit for but I think the same of Byakuya-the only reason he "lost" to ichigo is because he didnt take him seriously. Even after the "loss" he could shunpo and obliderate Ichigo with Kido while Ichigo couldnt stay on his feet.

The fact is Byakuya's bankai is very well suited to defend and counter the majoruty of Hitsu's moves. Add to that better kidou and shunpo and id say Byakuya is teh clear winner-I'm not dissing Hitsu-I just think Byakuya is the 4th strongest captain (not counting Unohana unti she fights).

I have my doubts about ichigo actually winning that fight lol. Ichigo at the end could not even stand while byakuya simply shunpoed away.... Byakuya had his "You broke my sword excuse" but couldn't he have used some kido or at least kick ichigo(seriously, if he has the strength to use shunpo he could at least kick ichigo....)?


Given what we have seen, I still think byakuya wins this. Byakuya has better overall skills IMHO and his own bankai could apparently defend him from the chunks of heaven hitsugaya can throw at him.

Josear XIII
July 23, 2009, 10:19 AM
WOW im impressed i though people would go with hitsugaya on this one, even though i rather see byakuya winning in the set conditions that the battle is proposed, hitsu would have more advantage and possibilities of winning than byakuya

Mifune_Taichou
July 23, 2009, 10:27 AM
I have my doubts about ichigo actually winning that fight lol. Ichigo at the end could not even stand while byakuya simply shunpoed away.... Byakuya had his "You broke my sword excuse" but couldn't he have used some kido or at least kick ichigo(seriously, if he has the strength to use shunpo he could at least kick ichigo....)?


Given what we have seen, I still think byakuya wins this. Byakuya has better overall skills IMHO and his own bankai could apparently defend him from the chunks of heaven hitsugaya can throw at him.

I agree with pretty much everything you said. Most improtantly

Ichigo did NOT beat Byakuya lol

Josear XIII
July 24, 2009, 09:40 AM
True Ichigo never in his life would have beat byakuya, Shirosaki did

Raizen
July 24, 2009, 02:27 PM
I agree with pretty much everything you said. Most improtantly

Ichigo did NOT beat Byakuya lol
I too don't think ichi beat byakuya. People have stated taht ichi beat byakuya dn ichi lost to grim so grim is stroner than byakuya, which I don't believe at all. But that is another discussion. Byakuya was clearly conflicted in taht fight which affected his performance. He was clearly beating ichi until hollow ichi appeared. Hollow ichi even said that ichi was strugglinh against byakuya's SP. Which means byakuya's SP is really powerful

Now hitsu is good and he looked totally cool when he calm after halibel attacked, but he can't beat byakuya

kkck
July 24, 2009, 03:03 PM
I too don't think ichi beat byakuya. People have stated taht ichi beat byakuya dn ichi lost to grim so grim is stroner than byakuya, which I don't believe at all. But that is another discussion. Byakuya was clearly conflicted in taht fight which affected his performance. He was clearly beating ichi until hollow ichi appeared. Hollow ichi even said that ichi was strugglinh against byakuya's SP. Which means byakuya's SP is really powerful

Now hitsu is good and he looked totally cool when he calm after halibel attacked, but he can't beat byakuya

When did he say that? That was a mistranslation, what hollow ichigo actually said was that ichigo's own bankai was crushing his bones...

Random101
July 26, 2009, 12:40 AM
I'm bored, so I decided to try my hand out at these match ups.

Frankly speaking, to say who would in one of these fights for sure would come down to opinion, and who is behind the writing the scenario for any one of these fights. While one person could beat another in one situation, that may not be the case in another. And frankly if one person quite simply has no way of beating that other one, if the plot demands it the other one can theoretically win. Thus given this, my verdicts will pretty much all come down to a probability, with my determined winner being the one who has the greater chance.

And uh, honestly this fight depends on a lot. No doubt most of the people here are correct. Byakuya is ahead of Hitsugaya in a lot of areas stat wise, even ignoring the canon stats. Speed Byakuya should theoretically be faster, though the databook stats seem to place them close to each other, power Byakuya obviously has the edge, and the less said about experience the better. Ultimately though this fight comes down to one important factor, already mentioned in this thread: Can Hitsugaya freeze and thus immobilize large chunks of Byakuya's bankai?

Shikai only honestly speaking Hitsugaya has the edge, no question. While others may disagree, to be honest the sheer amount of ice Hitsugaya can use in his shikai effortlessly trumps the volume Byakuya's petals in that state (Same can be said of Matsumoto's ash, but frankly I think Kubo screwed the pooch on that one). Bankai though this number increases dramatically, to the point where it's quite simply overwhelming. If Hitsugaya can freeze them though, he gains a significantly greater chance of winning, but if they can break out easily, he's pretty screwed in this scenario.

To be short, I'm inclined to believe yes he can, if only because Ichigo can bat said blades away easily, and despite Byakuya sending them all at him at full force, they all were thrown back so far that it easily allowed for a massive opening for him to shift behind the guy. I mean if there were a bit more of a resistance from them, some inclination that the task was hard due to the power of the individual petals (Rather than the sheer number as actually indicated in that scene, which was compensated for by Ichigo's bankai speed), I'd be inclined to say no, but honestly if they can be thrown that far with a swing of the blade, fast as it may have been, that seems to imply the 'force' each petal gives in its motion isn't all that strong (Which is to say the strength of the bankai is not the power from each individual petal, but instead the sheer number and the range and great number of angles he can focus them through), and being completely frozen over should theoretically be enough to stop it using Hitsugaya's bankai, where the freezing capabilities should by all means be significantly stronger than his shikai (One could even argue the shikai case too, but for the sake of simplicity, let's assume the stages come more or less at roughly the same time)

Notably this is my opinion though, and thus my final verdict will be altered accordingly for both scenarios. And it's not like there's no scope of strength for the ice's hold either that allows for some argument this way, as dude did manage to freeze Luppi's arms to the point where they couldn't budge at all before using the 1000 year ice prison, without the guy even noticing. Provided he freezes individual chunks of the petals rather than a massive amount of the whole thing, he should be able to whittle it down little by little, assuming this assumption is correct.

In terms of Byakuya's bankai offense vs. Hitsugaya's bankai's defense, I'd have to say that while Hitsugaya stands a much better chance of getting off minimally scathed from a direct attack than Renji (Who got owned, but could still get up) or Ichigo (Who got hurt bad, but shrugged it off), as both have no defensive capabilities to speak of, he won't get off completely undamaged due to tiny holes in the defense of his wings, and thereby getting hit repeatedly is going to screw him over bad. Hence in the case where Hitsugaya's Ice cannot freeze large chunks of Byakuya's bankai, he's frankly screwed, and a victory is only possible if Byakuya get's cocky, or suffers from Plot induced stupidity.

In regards to the case where the battle evolves and makes Byakuya use the second form of his bankai... frankly Hitsugaya has the edge. Shocking as it may be, I can honestly say thatthe second form of Byakuya's bankai completely and utterly sucks for battle purposes. I mean really, the thing is basically him using one, or in the odd case two versions of his shikai, with obviously added killing potential. If Ichigo hadn't started slowing down then, Byakuya should have by all means been completely and utterly OWNED when he went to that state. Sure you can argue that said increase in killing potential will make it far easier to cut through the wings, but since he outright says he won't force all the swords to attack at once, this isn't going to make much difference, as Hitsugaya can still go ranged. Sure dude still has kido to use, but frankly even ignoring Hitsugaya's own Kido capabilities, which he's annoyingly never used in battle despite Kubo giving them both the same stats in that area, I'd still put considerable edge on the kid's own speed (Incantation less may be faster, but you still have to announce the name which gives prior warning, particularly to those who know which spell is which and such, and frankly it only works on Ichigo and Renji in their cases because Ichigo couldn't move at all when he actually pulled it out, and Renji's bankai is rather slow comparatively (Particularly since Byakuya immobilized it with another kido at that point) and large (Explain how that previous kido managed to do so)) and defenses there. Sure you could argue the case, but considering the rarity of actually seeing kido in battle, even from someone who actually uses it like Byakuya, in favor of shunpo and the zanpakuto abilities, I'm inclined to believe those are considerably more useful in an actual fight.

In regards to the last form, obviously Byakuya makes up for his strange choice of combat with the previous version, but the problem with this one is it's also close ranged. If pulled, I have no doubt if it connects Hitsugaya is considerably screwed, but his ranged capabilities make me think connecting the hit is going to be the thing, particularly since if he's actually going to pull it (Like hell Byakuya's going to pull this thing early if he can avoid it), he'd be considerably weakened by that point. Provided it doesn't end in a final clash like so many Bleach fights do (The why's the thing though, as Hitsugaya's close range move, Ryuusenka should be by all means weaker than his other two end all killer moves, which are ranged), could go either way, depending on how long it took to get to this point.

Naturally, Hitsugaya's time limit (provided that's what it is) also factors in. Problem is canon is rather wishy washy with how long this takes, especially given how continuity with those things is all over the place. Honestly given how long the Harribel fight was, and he was a little over half gone by the time that ended before Wonderwiess showed up, I'd say it depends in all honesty. He seemed to lose them considerably faster in the fight with the fraccion, but given he was under a limiter that can be argued.

And naturally personality can be argued into this as well. While both are a little prone to arrogance, frankly Byakuya is considerably moreso. I'm sorry, when a dude destroys some pillar with his shikai that can take the destructive force of a million Zanpakuto right in front of you, and you still consider them trash unworthy of your Bankai, in all honesty there's something wrong with you. Thus while both are pretty clever, I'd have to give the edge for rational and collected tactics to Hitsugaya simply because of that.

Overall verdict:

Both Sealed stage: 30/70 for Byakuya, because the dude's got it where it counts.

Shikai Stage: 60/40 for Hitsugaya, because Byakuya's shikai is considerably lacking, but his other attributes can make a difference here depending on how he uses them.

Bankai stage (Byakuya's first stage): 60/40 for Hitsugaya in the case that the Ice can immobilize a good chunk of his bankai, as if he keeps at it he could make Byakuya's offensive AND defensive considerably weaker. However with Kido and the remainder of his bankai Byakuya could conceivably also free some of the frozen petals if he plays smart, thus Hitsugaya's edge isn't as great as it could possibly be.

However in the case where the petals can easily, or at least semi easily, break out of the ice, 10/90 to 5/95 for Byakuya, as only an act of god (ie: Kubo or whoever is writing this scenario) or incredibly (and neigh illogical) good fortune that allows him to use his most potent attacks in this fight to considerable effect could keep the kid from being completely overwhelmed as the battle presses on.

Bankai Stage (Byakuya's second form): 70/30 Hitsugaya, and I'd personally say more if I wasn't sure how effective Kido could be in this round. Frankly I don't see why it would even reach this point honestly. Depending how long the battle's gone on at this point, Hitsugaya could pull either of his prison final moves here and stand a good chance of ending it if Byakuya doesn't revert or upgrade in time, particularly if standard SHONEN SHOCK sets in. Time limit also factors in here, though like I said earlier, we don't know how long it takes for the petals anyway, and the Harribel fight outright shows a very considerable amount of time.

Bankai stage (Byakuya's third form): 50/50 (40/60 Byakuya if the fact that it's shonen and freaking Bleach factors in, as final clashes are ALL TOO COMMON IN THIS SERIES, giving Byakuya the edge if said scenario is more likely to come in). Ultimately it comes down to whether or not Hitsugaya can stop the guy at range before he's skewered, which means it depends on how wounded he was in the previous rounds (Which actually could be possible given Byakuya's stats are comparatively lower in his HP or 'health' than in his other stats). While I could see 1000 year prison being broken out of in this stage, the 100 Flower burial could possibly end him here, as the thing to worry about isn't giant pillars of ice that are large and easily cut through, it's a freaking ton of fast and tiny snowflake instant freeze ice bombs of all things, and without any defense to speak of in this state, that's worrisome. It depends on calm and collected tactics here in the end, which is why Hitsugaya isn't as screwed as he frankly should be.

Edit: Ugh, forgot that stupid move of Hitsugaya's, that Ice Projector image thing, for lack of anything to call it. If he uses it here, that also gives him a good chance of victory, though he could just as easily use it in the earlier rounds too depending on what happens. I refuse to change the odds for this though, as I utterly loathe this move for both the stupid writing trick that was used to create false tension that chapter, and frankly the fact that it has not been explained at all, leaving all too many to call it an Ice mirror of all things. I mean really, I know the spoilers said that before the chapter was released, but frankly the thing hasn't even had enough of an explanation to actually call it as such.

Final verdict: Impossible to call without more canon information, and thus falls to my opinion, which, as it's opinion, can be contested. Too much depends on the first bankai stage to accurately call who would win in this case, in which case whether or not the ice has the edge over the petals will call it. Similarly it would also depend at which point it ends too, as stage three ultimately depends on how weak Byakuya is at that point and if Hitsugaya keeps ranged two of bankai is slanted towards Hitsugaya, while stage 1 can go either way depending on the logic for it.

I'll tentatively put 55/45 odds on Hitsugaya in the case where the ice has the edge over the petals, and 20/80 odds on Byakuya in the case where the reverse is true, because in that case there's a good chance it'll stay in the first bankai stage provided it being both BLEACH and SHONEN doesn't factor in to the battle (if not than the odds are the same as those in the first bankai stage in that scenario). So really it comes down to my opinion. Contest that as you will, but ultimately I think that this is a rather fair assessment given the facts currently given in canon.

For giggles, my vote will go tenatively go to Hitsugaya, due in part because I personally would give the edge to the ice, and also because I don't generally follow the crowd anyway given I actually try to apply logic to shonen, when the two rarely mix. Especially in battles. :P

Though in all honesty, even in that scenario the battle would be close, considerably closer than if the reverse were true.

Now to see which one of these match ups tickles my fancy next...

Mifune_Taichou
July 26, 2009, 01:45 PM
I'm bored, so I decided to try my hand out at these match ups.

Frankly speaking, to say who would in one of these fights for sure would come down to opinion, and who is behind the writing the scenario for any one of these fights. While one person could beat another in one situation, that may not be the case in another. And frankly if one person quite simply has no way of beating that other one, if the plot demands it the other one can theoretically win. Thus given this, my verdicts will pretty much all come down to a probability, with my determined winner being the one who has the greater chance.

And uh, honestly this fight depends on a lot. No doubt most of the people here are correct. Byakuya is ahead of Hitsugaya in a lot of areas stat wise, even ignoring the canon stats. Speed Byakuya should theoretically be faster, though the databook stats seem to place them close to each other, power Byakuya obviously has the edge, and the less said about experience the better. Ultimately though this fight comes down to one important factor, already mentioned in this thread: Can Hitsugaya freeze and thus immobilize large chunks of Byakuya's bankai?

Shikai only honestly speaking Hitsugaya has the edge, no question. While others may disagree, to be honest the sheer amount of ice Hitsugaya can use in his shikai effortlessly trumps the volume Byakuya's petals in that state (Same can be said of Matsumoto's ash, but frankly I think Kubo screwed the pooch on that one). Bankai though this number increases dramatically, to the point where it's quite simply overwhelming. If Hitsugaya can freeze them though, he gains a significantly greater chance of winning, but if they can break out easily, he's pretty screwed in this scenario.

To be short, I'm inclined to believe yes he can, if only because Ichigo can bat said blades away easily, and despite Byakuya sending them all at him at full force, they all were thrown back so far that it easily allowed for a massive opening for him to shift behind the guy. I mean if there were a bit more of a resistance from them, some inclination that the task was hard due to the power of the individual petals (Rather than the sheer number as actually indicated in that scene, which was compensated for by Ichigo's bankai speed), I'd be inclined to say no, but honestly if they can be thrown that far with a swing of the blade, fast as it may have been, that seems to imply the 'force' each petal gives in its motion isn't all that strong (Which is to say the strength of the bankai is not the power from each individual petal, but instead the sheer number and the range and great number of angles he can focus them through), and being completely frozen over should theoretically be enough to stop it using Hitsugaya's bankai, where the freezing capabilities should by all means be significantly stronger than his shikai (One could even argue the shikai case too, but for the sake of simplicity, let's assume the stages come more or less at roughly the same time)

Notably this is my opinion though, and thus my final verdict will be altered accordingly for both scenarios. And it's not like there's no scope of strength for the ice's hold either that allows for some argument this way, as dude did manage to freeze Luppi's arms to the point where they couldn't budge at all before using the 1000 year ice prison, without the guy even noticing. Provided he freezes individual chunks of the petals rather than a massive amount of the whole thing, he should be able to whittle it down little by little, assuming this assumption is correct.

In terms of Byakuya's bankai offense vs. Hitsugaya's bankai's defense, I'd have to say that while Hitsugaya stands a much better chance of getting off minimally scathed from a direct attack than Renji (Who got owned, but could still get up) or Ichigo (Who got hurt bad, but shrugged it off), as both have no defensive capabilities to speak of, he won't get off completely undamaged due to tiny holes in the defense of his wings, and thereby getting hit repeatedly is going to screw him over bad. Hence in the case where Hitsugaya's Ice cannot freeze large chunks of Byakuya's bankai, he's frankly screwed, and a victory is only possible if Byakuya get's cocky, or suffers from Plot induced stupidity.

In regards to the case where the battle evolves and makes Byakuya use the second form of his bankai... frankly Hitsugaya has the edge. Shocking as it may be, I can honestly say thatthe second form of Byakuya's bankai completely and utterly sucks for battle purposes. I mean really, the thing is basically him using one, or in the odd case two versions of his shikai, with obviously added killing potential. If Ichigo hadn't started slowing down then, Byakuya should have by all means been completely and utterly OWNED when he went to that state. Sure you can argue that said increase in killing potential will make it far easier to cut through the wings, but since he outright says he won't force all the swords to attack at once, this isn't going to make much difference, as Hitsugaya can still go ranged. Sure dude still has kido to use, but frankly even ignoring Hitsugaya's own Kido capabilities, which he's annoyingly never used in battle despite Kubo giving them both the same stats in that area, I'd still put considerable edge on the kid's own speed (Incantation less may be faster, but you still have to announce the name which gives prior warning, particularly to those who know which spell is which and such, and frankly it only works on Ichigo and Renji in their cases because Ichigo couldn't move at all when he actually pulled it out, and Renji's bankai is rather slow comparatively (Particularly since Byakuya immobilized it with another kido at that point) and large (Explain how that previous kido managed to do so)) and defenses there. Sure you could argue the case, but considering the rarity of actually seeing kido in battle, even from someone who actually uses it like Byakuya, in favor of shunpo and the zanpakuto abilities, I'm inclined to believe those are considerably more useful in an actual fight.

In regards to the last form, obviously Byakuya makes up for his strange choice of combat with the previous version, but the problem with this one is it's also close ranged. If pulled, I have no doubt if it connects Hitsugaya is considerably screwed, but his ranged capabilities make me think connecting the hit is going to be the thing, particularly since if he's actually going to pull it (Like hell Byakuya's going to pull this thing early if he can avoid it), he'd be considerably weakened by that point. Provided it doesn't end in a final clash like so many Bleach fights do (The why's the thing though, as Hitsugaya's close range move, Ryuusenka should be by all means weaker than his other two end all killer moves, which are ranged), could go either way, depending on how long it took to get to this point.

Naturally, Hitsugaya's time limit (provided that's what it is) also factors in. Problem is canon is rather wishy washy with how long this takes, especially given how continuity with those things is all over the place. Honestly given how long the Harribel fight was, and he was a little over half gone by the time that ended before Wonderwiess showed up, I'd say it depends in all honesty. He seemed to lose them considerably faster in the fight with the fraccion, but given he was under a limiter that can be argued.

And naturally personality can be argued into this as well. While both are a little prone to arrogance, frankly Byakuya is considerably moreso. I'm sorry, when a dude destroys some pillar with his shikai that can take the destructive force of a million Zanpakuto right in front of you, and you still consider them trash unworthy of your Bankai, in all honesty there's something wrong with you. Thus while both are pretty clever, I'd have to give the edge for rational and collected tactics to Hitsugaya simply because of that.

Overall verdict:

Both Sealed stage: 30/70 for Byakuya, because the dude's got it where it counts.

Shikai Stage: 60/40 for Hitsugaya, because Byakuya's shikai is considerably lacking, but his other attributes can make a difference here depending on how he uses them.

Bankai stage (Byakuya's first stage): 60/40 for Hitsugaya in the case that the Ice can immobilize a good chunk of his bankai, as if he keeps at it he could make Byakuya's offensive AND defensive considerably weaker. However with Kido and the remainder of his bankai Byakuya could conceivably also free some of the frozen petals if he plays smart, thus Hitsugaya's edge isn't as great as it could possibly be.

However in the case where the petals can easily, or at least semi easily, break out of the ice, 10/90 to 5/95 for Byakuya, as only an act of god (ie: Kubo or whoever is writing this scenario) or incredibly (and neigh illogical) good fortune that allows him to use his most potent attacks in this fight to considerable effect could keep the kid from being completely overwhelmed as the battle presses on.

Bankai Stage (Byakuya's second form): 70/30 Hitsugaya, and I'd personally say more if I wasn't sure how effective Kido could be in this round. Frankly I don't see why it would even reach this point honestly. Depending how long the battle's gone on at this point, Hitsugaya could pull either of his prison final moves here and stand a good chance of ending it if Byakuya doesn't revert or upgrade in time, particularly if standard SHONEN SHOCK sets in. Time limit also factors in here, though like I said earlier, we don't know how long it takes for the petals anyway, and the Harribel fight outright shows a very considerable amount of time.

Bankai stage (Byakuya's third form): 50/50 (40/60 Byakuya if the fact that it's shonen and freaking Bleach factors in, as final clashes are ALL TOO COMMON IN THIS SERIES, giving Byakuya the edge if said scenario is more likely to come in). Ultimately it comes down to whether or not Hitsugaya can stop the guy at range before he's skewered, which means it depends on how wounded he was in the previous rounds (Which actually could be possible given Byakuya's stats are comparatively lower in his HP or 'health' than in his other stats). While I could see 1000 year prison being broken out of in this stage, the 100 Flower burial could possibly end him here, as the thing to worry about isn't giant pillars of ice that are large and easily cut through, it's a freaking ton of fast and tiny snowflake instant freeze ice bombs of all things, and without any defense to speak of in this state, that's worrisome. It depends on calm and collected tactics here in the end, which is why Hitsugaya isn't as screwed as he frankly should be.

Edit: Ugh, forgot that stupid move of Hitsugaya's, that Ice Projector image thing, for lack of anything to call it. If he uses it here, that also gives him a good chance of victory, though he could just as easily use it in the earlier rounds too depending on what happens. I refuse to change the odds for this though, as I utterly loathe this move for both the stupid writing trick that was used to create false tension that chapter, and frankly the fact that it has not been explained at all, leaving all too many to call it an Ice mirror of all things. I mean really, I know the spoilers said that before the chapter was released, but frankly the thing hasn't even had enough of an explanation to actually call it as such.

Final verdict: Impossible to call without more canon information, and thus falls to my opinion, which, as it's opinion, can be contested. Too much depends on the first bankai stage to accurately call who would win in this case, in which case whether or not the ice has the edge over the petals will call it. Similarly it would also depend at which point it ends too, as stage three ultimately depends on how weak Byakuya is at that point and if Hitsugaya keeps ranged two of bankai is slanted towards Hitsugaya, while stage 1 can go either way depending on the logic for it.

I'll tentatively put 55/45 odds on Hitsugaya in the case where the ice has the edge over the petals, and 20/80 odds on Byakuya in the case where the reverse is true, because in that case there's a good chance it'll stay in the first bankai stage provided it being both BLEACH and SHONEN doesn't factor in to the battle (if not than the odds are the same as those in the first bankai stage in that scenario). So really it comes down to my opinion. Contest that as you will, but ultimately I think that this is a rather fair assessment given the facts currently given in canon.

For giggles, my vote will go tenatively go to Hitsugaya, due in part because I personally would give the edge to the ice, and also because I don't generally follow the crowd anyway given I actually try to apply logic to shonen, when the two rarely mix. Especially in battles. :P

Though in all honesty, even in that scenario the battle would be close, considerably closer than if the reverse were true.

Now to see which one of these match ups tickles my fancy next...

Wow that was really, really in depth. awesome post lol. I think thats pretty much take care of all the possibilities. The only thing Id say about the probabilities is that I think you are underestimating Senkei (byakuya's 2nd form). He only didnt make all the swords skewer Ichigo because he had sword he would kill him with his own hand. That doesnt mean he wouldnt just do that to anyone else.

Random101
July 26, 2009, 06:08 PM
Byakuya's exact words were "Don't worry, these thousand swords will not strike you altogether. I swore that this 'Senkei' (http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/000107302/12.jpg) would only be shown to the person I wished to slay personally (http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/000107302/13.jpg)." While in theory he should be able to simply have them do that, his intentions clearly show that he simply doesn't if it ever gets used at all. I personally say what the hell in the case that it is capable of that (They certainly shift to his hand fast enough when he summoned one to his hand to stab Ichigo's foot), but because of this choice of his, in all honesty, the form sucks big time in comparison.

Mifune_Taichou
July 27, 2009, 08:55 AM
Byakuya's exact words were "Don't worry, these thousand swords will not strike you altogether. I swore that this 'Senkei' (http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/000107302/12.jpg) would only be shown to the person I wished to slay personally (http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/000107302/13.jpg)." While in theory he should be able to simply have them do that, his intentions clearly show that he simply doesn't if it ever gets used at all. I personally say what the hell in the case that it is capable of that (They certainly shift to his hand fast enough when he summoned one to his hand to stab Ichigo's foot), but because of this choice of his, in all honesty, the form sucks big time in comparison.

Regardless of how arrogant or pround Byakuya is, since his Senkei can do that I cant imagine that he'll allow himself to be frozen to the core by Hitsugaya rather than use his power to its full potential and skewer him like a chicken on spit roast lol

studiokid
July 27, 2009, 11:42 AM
Its hard to make a poll for a guy on a website that hates they guy, but to me I can see each of them defeating each other, so much possibilities these two are really close together IMHO, Byakuya's usage of kidou seems to edge out Hitsu but who is to say Hitsu won't use kidou when he's fighting him.

P.s Why do you guys keep making polls and vs threads for a guy who is said to be "last-Tier" against guys who are top and mid tier.

Raizen
July 27, 2009, 12:52 PM
When did he say that? That was a mistranslation, what hollow ichigo actually said was that ichigo's own bankai was crushing his bones...
Here
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/166/05/

kkck
July 27, 2009, 01:42 PM
Here
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/166/05/

Well, as I pointed out, that was a mistranslation.
Here is the correct translation by cnet:
[QUOTE=cnet128;1438999]HollowIchigo: You're gettin' so screwed-up by the reiatsu from your bankai... // ...it's jarring every last bone in your body!! // So pathetic... // You just watch. // I'll show you... // ...how a bankai... // ...is meant to be used!!!

Mifune_Taichou
July 27, 2009, 02:26 PM
Its hard to make a poll for a guy on a website that hates they guy, but to me I can see each of them defeating each other, so much possibilities these two are really close together IMHO, Byakuya's usage of kidou seems to edge out Hitsu but who is to say Hitsu won't use kidou when he's fighting him.

P.s Why do you guys keep making polls and vs threads for a guy who is said to be "last-Tier" against guys who are top and mid tier.

there is one simple answer to that-so they can have more opportunities to rip on the guy. He is clearly not last tier and is much stronger than hes given credit for but as you said this website seems to house the largest concentration of people that hate him that I have ever seen.

I started a Byakuya v Hitsu thread myself, which got merged into this one but when i did I laid out rules against referring to fankai, fandom etc. Not surprisingly very few people posted-seems if they arent allowed to say stupid baseless thing to vent their irrational hatred they cant say anything really justified.

Hitsug@ya ta1ch0u
July 27, 2009, 03:25 PM
I too don't think ichi beat byakuya. People have stated taht ichi beat byakuya dn ichi lost to grim so grim is stroner than byakuya, which I don't believe at all. But that is another discussion. Byakuya was clearly conflicted in taht fight which affected his performance. He was clearly beating ichi until hollow ichi appeared. Hollow ichi even said that ichi was strugglinh against byakuya's SP. Which means byakuya's SP is really powerful

Now hitsu is good and he looked totally cool when he calm after halibel attacked, but he can't beat byakuya
:facepalm
That is utter nonsense. Have you forgotten http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/163/02/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/163/17/
At this time if Ichigo was a ruthless combatant he would have decapitated Byakuya or ran his blade through his throat. Harribel is well above Bankai...hell Bankai Vaizard Ichigo in terms of speed. Hitsugaya lasted alot better against Harribel than Ichigo did against R1 Ulquiorra who Harribel is superior to. Byakuya who couldn't even react to BANKAI Ichigo, would be utterly blitzed by Hitsugaya, who can not only react to but keep up with the Third Espada. Without Bankai he was clearly not phased by RELEASED Harribel coming after him.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/367/06/
Hitsugaya likely has some Kidou, he simply doesn't display it because its not his perfered method of combat. In fact in Bleach: Fade To Black (A Movie Kubo had a hand in if I'm not mistaken) Hitsugaya displayed this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqQy81sgkpc
Also about Hitsugaya being able to freeze Senbonzakura. I see no reason why not, he's frozen several Arrancar's Hierro. Senbonzakura has zero durability feats except perhaps being shattered bare handedly by Shirosaki.

En Yang Ji
July 27, 2009, 03:34 PM
- Hitsugaya's and Ichigo's battle probably shouldn't be compared in that way. Hitsugaya wasn't able to react to Halibel in close range combat and she doesn't use sonido. Ulquiorra on the other hand uses sonido all the time and fought Ichigo in close range combat.

- Even if Hitsugaya can freeze Senbonzakura, it's possible he can broke the petals out, using force.

Random101
July 27, 2009, 03:41 PM
Regardless of how arrogant or pround Byakuya is, since his Senkei can do that I cant imagine that he'll allow himself to be frozen to the core by Hitsugaya rather than use his power to its full potential and skewer him like a chicken on spit roast lol
Ah, but that in itself is the problem. Unless we actually see he can have loads of them attack him, we can't really make the assumption. At best what we do know is that they can easily be summoned to his hand. Granted we saw swords against Renji, but those were hardly the same thing as they had no form, and if Renji could shatter them with his bare hands in that extremely bloodied state, a feat which took Hichigo to achieve, you know there's a difference in power.

And secondly, you are underestimating Byakuya's pride there. He went straight to this form after Ichigo managed to make an opening and strike at him with a bankai that was clearly superior to his own capabilities. Like I said, had Ichigo not started slowing down then, he'd have been screwed. Thing is though, there was really no reason for him to know that in the first place, not until it started happening, and yet despite knowing the guy was faster than he could easily perceive, the first thing he told him was still that he wouldn't have all of them attack him at once.


Hitsugaya's and Ichigo's battle probably shouldn't be compared in that way. Hitsugaya wasn't able to react to Halibel in close range combat and she doesn't use sonido. Ulquiorra on the other hand uses sonido all the time and fought Ichigo in close range combat.

- Even if Hitsugaya can freeze Senbonzakura, it's possible he can broke the petals out, using force.
Which part was this? Even before she released, he was able to keep up. Was getting batted around a hell of a lot more for some reason, yes, but he was successfully able to block the blows that were coming at him. Unless you mean that one part where she attacked him when he went bankai, but that in itself is arguable. A smart move on Harribel's part, if she took advantage of his 'transformation sequence' a feat which is exceedingly rare to say the least.

Also I took that into account, which is why there are two ratings for the first stage, both of which taking into account both sides of that possibility. I'm inclined to believe that Byakuya's Bankai's strength doesn't lie in the force of each individual blade though, for reasons I explained earlier, hence they wouldn't be able to break out. Though that comes down to my own inferring what I see in the manga, and thus could easily be contested, which is why I took both scenarios into account.

Naturally though even in that case, Byakuya could still probably use kido and the unfrozen blades to theoretically free them, but every time he does that his focus drifts from attacking the kid, which is why in theory Hitsugaya would have an edge in that scenario.

Yans86
July 27, 2009, 03:41 PM
Well...I'll answer as any other guys around here would answer u:

Bleach anime/movie aren't cannon....
Halibel was holding back,but anyway Ulquiorra style of fight rely overall on speed,swordmanship and energy blast while Halibel rely on agility and KidoBase attack(water)....does says that u can't compare them in speed....
The only one that displayed such a speed is Stark.
Aaroniero showed something interesting in terms of speed(in close combat).....but besides his selfclaimed faster espada,I would have liked to see him fight open air...

Hitsu is a genious,Byakuya is smart and has more experience....
Senbonzankura 0 durability?we don't know at what speed Hitsu can freeze things so is difficult to judge.....

This fight is really difficult to judge and that's why there were long argument posted by other users.....j

And well,Ichigo case is different,from Byakuya's fight(the moment the hollow took over),till the end of Gj's fight,his ability to use bankai fluctuated a lot cause hindered from his hollow!
Not talking that he is even less mature then hitsu in using his bankai power.....and if u consider that his bankai works giving him more speed,just mastering it would put him in another league,but this is not the case for the moment....

Hitsug@ya ta1ch0u
July 27, 2009, 03:45 PM
- Hitsugaya's and Ichigo's battle probably shouldn't be compared in that way. Hitsugaya wasn't able to react to Halibel in close range combat and she doesn't use sonido. Ulquiorra on the other hand uses sonido all the time and fought Ichigo in close range combat.
Nonsense, Hitsugaya was obviously testing the waters with Unreleased Harribel. Hitsugaya is more than capable of reacting two and almost blitzing released Harribel.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/356/05/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/356/05/
Not to mention being able to react to Harribel's attack fast enough to replace himself with a clone, something even Kisuke admits is hard.

- Even if Hitsugaya can freeze Senbonzakura, it's possible he can broke the petals out, using force.
Doubtful. Harribel the Tricera couldn't break Hitsugaya's Ice prison without assistance from WW. Byakuya's Senbonzakura was shattered by Ichigo's blade, Shirosaki's hand, oh and I forgot RENJI brushed them aside.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/143/21/

kkck
July 27, 2009, 03:50 PM
It denpends, if hitsugaya does not use what he used against gin, I would think even byakuyas shikai could rip the water dragon and hitsu's bankai to shreds. Even if he uses the power he used against gin, there is a good chance senbonsakura can just break apart the dragon before it reaches byakuya. Whether it would freeze is debatable though.

Random101
July 27, 2009, 03:56 PM
Byakuya's shikai in itself sucks when taken to captain, perhaps even vice captain level fights, so I'm heavily inclined to disagree. Also Hitsugaya used his shikai on Gin, so I'm not sure what you mean. Unless you think there's some difference in strength of the ice between when he's using Tenso Jurin in shikai, which may not be the case.

kkck
July 27, 2009, 03:58 PM
Why do you think it sucks? To be perfectly fair it has yet to be used in a battle lol(technically it was about to rip ichigo to a thousand little shreads but yoruichi saved him).

Yans86
July 27, 2009, 04:01 PM
To freeze Senbonzakura while in movement is quite impossible....if he manage to freeze Senkei,or his sword before releasing as Yoruichi did,then it would be another story,but that's not the case......

Anyway I think that in a few time Hitsu wll be able to use moves similar to senbonzakura........so I'm pretty sure that even if he doesn't win now,he will be able in few years :-P

Hitsug@ya ta1ch0u
July 27, 2009, 04:04 PM
It denpends, if hitsugaya does not use what he used against gin, I would think even byakuyas shikai could rip the water dragon and hitsu's bankai to shreds. Even if he uses the power he used against gin, there is a good chance senbonsakura can just break apart the dragon before it reaches byakuya. Whether it would freeze is debatable though.

Are you kidding
Hitsugaya's Ice dragon sent Harribel flying back and has been shown to be able to freeze Captains on Gin's level. Renji's Bankai easily dodged it, and Hitsugaya can spam the dragon. Hell in the Anime he sent 8 or 9 dragons to attack Harribel. Byakuya's Shikai has absolutely zero feats, it was blown away by base GT, and it failed to kill even Ganji and you think it will breach Hitsugaya's ice which has tanked a released Arrancar's attack. :blink
Byakuya's attack come across to me as rather weak. His Bankai's Gokei Senbonzakura failed to kill Zommarri, Senbonzakura was blown away by an injured Renji, and failed to kill him. It was easily parried by Ichigo without Black Getsuga. This was in Hueco Muendo and SS where Byakuya should be much more powerful than in the Real World. In the real world Harribel was utterly blitzed by a half power Hyoten Hyakkaso a full powered one in HM or SS would be more than enough for Byakuya.:amuse

kkck
July 27, 2009, 04:05 PM
Once hitsugaya fully develops his power to the point where he is capable of using them freely even in bankai, he will be overkill.... Esentially a young yamamoto capable of throwing chunks of sky at you. Anyways, for the time being byakuya takes this.

Random101
July 27, 2009, 04:05 PM
Why do you think it sucks? To be perfectly fair it has yet to be used in a battle lol(technically it was about to rip ichigo to a thousand little shreads but yoruichi saved him).
He used it against Renji, it did nothing (Though he thought it did), did nothing against Ichigo too, though granted the grand reveal of Getsuuga was more to blame. The problem is the volume of petals in his shikai is so exceedingly minor that against anyone but mooks it should be worthless. Remember that people pulling captain levels can survive direct hits with his bankai and keep fighting (To what extent depends though), and his bankai is so insanely more massive in volume that by simple association his shikai is worthless.

Frankly in a shikai fight I see Hitsugaya effortlessly freezing all the petals and effectively taking them out of the fight. Doesn't matter if they can break out with force, the volume of petals is so small that a few ice spams should make that a non-issue. Granted that in itself is my personal verdict on the matter, though it goes without saying that the volume of Ice Hitsugaya's shikai can summon with one strike is vastly superior to anything Byakuya's can pull (Edit: In Shikai obviously).


To freeze Senbonzakura while in movement is quite impossible....if he manage to freeze Senkei,or his sword before releasing as Yoruichi did,then it would be another story,but that's not the case......
If the thing can be blocked in motion, all of it, and thrown back that far, it can be frozen. The question is whether or not it can break out, which depends on your arguement.

Yans86
July 27, 2009, 04:09 PM
Hell in the Anime he sent 8 or 9 dragons to attack Harribel.

Ok boy,as we can see u r a beginner.
If u start to bring out the anime then no one will give u credit!
And as far as we know,Byakuya not only underestimated Ichigo,but when he understood his way of thinkin he never tought of killin him....

Also u can't compare their shikai cause they would fight in bankai,and still even there to predict the outcome is far from easy....

Hitsug@ya ta1ch0u
July 27, 2009, 04:11 PM
Once hitsugaya fully develops his power to the point where he is capable of using them freely even in bankai, he will be overkill.... Esentially a young yamamoto capable of throwing chunks of sky at you. Anyways, for the time being byakuya takes this.

Here's the thing if Hitsugaya doesn't have to worry about killing his compatriots he is a force to be reckoned with. If he used Tenso Jurin against Luppi he wouldn't have been able to control his power and would have killed Matsumoto and the others. So he had to wait for the water to gather in the atmosphere. If he is unrestricted as he was against Gin he'd beat Byakuya.
Look what an unrestricted Hitsugaya did just drawing his sword. http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/170/16/
:o

Yans86
July 27, 2009, 04:14 PM
Here's the thing if Hitsugaya doesn't have to worry about killing his compatriots he is a force to be reckoned with. If he used Tenso Jurin against Luppi he wouldn't have been able to control his power and would have killed Matsumoto and the others. So he had to wait for the water to gather in the atmosphere. If he is unrestricted as he was against Gin he'd beat Byakuya.
Look what an unrestricted Hitsugaya did just drawing his sword. http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/170/16/
:o

If Byakuya use Snenbonzakura berserk mode,do u think that the outcome would be different?
And the image states nothing,Ulquiorra smashed Ichigo's head against a tower making it crumble.....is Ichigo head as strong as HItsu shikai?no :-P

Random101
July 27, 2009, 04:17 PM
Also u can't compare their shikai cause they would fight in bankai,and still even there to predict the outcome is far from easy....
This I agree with. Frankly ever since Ichigo vs. Byakuya, or frankly before that with Renji, shikai's in general, save the supremely broken ones, were pretty much made obsolete.

En Yang Ji
July 27, 2009, 04:49 PM
Nonsense, Hitsugaya was obviously testing the waters with Unreleased Harribel. Hitsugaya is more than capable of reacting two and almost blitzing released Harribel.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/356/05/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/356/05/
Not to mention being able to react to Harribel's attack fast enough to replace himself with a clone, something even Kisuke admits is hard.

Doubtful. Harribel the Tricera couldn't break Hitsugaya's Ice prison without assistance from WW. Byakuya's Senbonzakura was shattered by Ichigo's blade, Shirosaki's hand, oh and I forgot RENJI brushed them aside.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/143/21/

- In this picture Halibel was suprised and was just reacting: http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/356/05/.
If she attacked normally, she could do the same thing she did to the ice clone. It seems like Hitsu doesn't thinks he can compete with Halibel at close range: http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/357/17/

- Your might be right about Byakuya not being able to break his petals out of Hitsugaya's ultimate attack, but I was referring to a scenario where he decides to freeze them with regular ice. Byakuya could just shunpo away from Hitsu's ultimate move.

Mifune_Taichou
July 27, 2009, 05:02 PM
To freeze Senbonzakura while in movement is quite impossible....if he manage to freeze Senkei,or his sword before releasing as Yoruichi did,then it would be another story,but that's not the case......

Anyway I think that in a few time Hitsu wll be able to use moves similar to senbonzakura........so I'm pretty sure that even if he doesn't win now,he will be able in few years :-P

Thats the thing I am a Hitsugaya AND a Byakuya fan so this isnt biased in any way-I really dont think hitsugaya can overcome Byakuya now, though in time, he should be able to an then some as he is supposed to be the new Yama.

They are different fighters. I see Byakuya more as the champion warrior, the one who takes on the opposition's best one on one and beats them-senkei kind of reflects that. I think his close combat skills and experience should be far supperior.

Hitsugaya on the other hand is a strategist. I see him as the commander figure and his powers, when strong enough when he is older are the type that would allow him to hold down several opponents or do damage to many enemies-Imagine for example if he uses Tenso Jurrin on a bunch of arrancar when he has reached his potential

Random101
July 27, 2009, 07:14 PM
- In this picture Halibel was suprised and was just reacting: http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/356/05/.
If she attacked normally, she could do the same thing she did to the ice clone. It seems like Hitsu doesn't thinks he can compete with Halibel at close range: http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/357/17/

- Your might be right about Byakuya not being able to break his petals out of Hitsugaya's ultimate attack, but I was referring to a scenario where he decides to freeze them with regular ice. Byakuya could just shunpo away from Hitsu's ultimate move.
Arguable on both fronts. The 'slash' thing seems to be an attribute that's only granted upon a sudden powerboost. When the limitors were released on Hitsugaya, Renji, and Matsumoto, all three of them pulled something similar from a distance before defeating the fraccion with a technique of theirs. I don't know why it works like that, but that's Bleach for you. You'll note she never tries the same trick again, despite knowing that he can't save himself like that again.

As for shunpoing away, first off the thing is pretty fast in itself (Harribel couldn't even use Hierviendo fast enough), and secondly it appears to surround and frankly track the target. It appears to work similar to Byakuya's own Bankai, except it's little mini bombs that once one hits, it's significantly harder to dodge the rest. While I could conceivably seeing him dodge it, it would have to depend on the circumstances.

Frankly blocking it with his own bankai is much smarter, provided he isn't in one of his final forms. Because frankly in the first stage of his Bankai, Byakuya rarely moves, even when about to be stabbed from behind. He didn't shunpo away then either, despite Ichigo managing to get a line out signaling that he was there (Then again, Talking is apparently a Free Action).

Ozehro
July 28, 2009, 07:30 AM
Nonsense, Hitsugaya was obviously testing the waters with Unreleased Harribel. Hitsugaya is more than capable of reacting two and almost blitzing released Harribel.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/356/05/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/356/05/
Not to mention being able to react to Harribel's attack fast enough to replace himself with a clone, something even Kisuke admits is hard.

Doubtful. Harribel the Tricera couldn't break Hitsugaya's Ice prison without assistance from WW. Byakuya's Senbonzakura was shattered by Ichigo's blade, Shirosaki's hand, oh and I forgot RENJI brushed them aside.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/143/21/

that was the wrong interpretation. Hitsugaya most likely created that ice
clone while Harribel was releasing. because for that duration her sight was covered. so it makes sense that Hitsu who is a genius prepared for
a never before seen release with an emergency move. so yeah Hitsugaya doesn't have blitz speed. remember luppi?

Raizen
July 28, 2009, 03:49 PM
Hitsu is not a good close combat fighter, that is why he kept his distance against the melee halibel.

Hitsu's ice dragon to me won't be able to keep up with byakuya. We can see byakuya shooting off kido to disrupt hitsu and then bankai him. Byakuya's bankai is deadly, no joke. Hitsu is strong. I like him. But currently byakuya is the more experienced fighter

Hitsug@ya ta1ch0u
July 28, 2009, 05:32 PM
If Byakuya use Snenbonzakura berserk mode,do u think that the outcome would be different?
And the image states nothing,Ulquiorra smashed Ichigo's head against a tower making it crumble.....is Ichigo head as strong as HItsu shikai?no :-P

Tell me on Sougyou Hill What prey tell was Kuchiki holding back for, he was going all out till the very end. And if Ichigo had control of his hollow powers then he would have dominated Byakuya. In every fight Hitsugaya has been in except against Aizen he has had comrades around him. Against Gin: Hinamori even then he won that battle.
Against Aizen: Pwnd but not before casually unleashing a building buster WITHOUT SHIKAI, just drawing his sword busted the building.
Against Shawlong: Matsumoto, and he had a limiter, after the limit was released, even on the BRINK OF DEATH he one shotted Shawlong. Byakuya couldn't even kill Renji with his Bankai's attack.
Against Luppi: His advanced force, so he couldn't use Tenso Jurin, not to mention if he did use Tenso Jurin he would endanger not only his Shinigami companions but everyone in Karakura town.
Against Harribel: He had to wait for his power to reduce to half to use Tenso Jurin, otherwise he'd fear he'd kill everyone at Karakura town. Let me break that down. Tenso Jurin at full power in Shikai spread 7 miles...7 miles!
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/132/02/
Now this is in SS where the Reshi particles are alot stronger than in the real world.
Tenso Jurin in Bankai, made Stark crap his pants, and at full power has the potential to destroy FKT.
What attack does Byakuya have that can beat something with an effective Radius of 7 square miles. Even in HM where the Reshi particles are strongest Kuchiki never displayed anything on par with Tenso Jurin

Random101
July 28, 2009, 05:35 PM
We don't know if his power is reduced to half when the petals are gone. Unlike Ikkaku (Who does it in reverse), there was no noted change in Hitsugaya's spiritual pressure, and then he had like two petals left.

Eddy01741
July 28, 2009, 09:07 PM
I don't see where people are getting this whole "Hitsu beat Gin in their skirmish" thing.

Hitsu used his shikai to trap Gin whom had not used shikai yet, and then Gin uses shikai ONCE, and then the following ensues:

-HItsugaya is forced to dodge a point blank extending sword/spear, losing his tactical advantage
-Gin is no longer trapped (although his arm was still iced for whatever reason)
-Gin could somewhat reasonably not make the blame of killing HInamori on him, he coulda just said he was fending off against Hitsugaya, and Hitsugaya dodged his extending sword/spear, which just so happened to be pointed straight at Momo as well (we obviously know he did it on purpose though)


Basically, had Matsumoto not arrived, Momo would have died and guess who wouldn't take the fall, Gin. Hitsugaya was the aggressor in the fight, as he did start it, he in fact also knocked Hinamori unconcious, all Gin would have to say in front of central 46 was he was practicing self-defense, and a stray sword strike just happened to hit Momo and kill her.

How do people not see how much Gin just played Hitsu there?

Hitsug@ya ta1ch0u
July 28, 2009, 10:50 PM
I don't see where people are getting this whole "Hitsu beat Gin in their skirmish" thing.
One had an arm encased in ice and possibly useless for the rest of the fight if it continued, the other had a scratch on the forehead. Also Hitsugaya still had Gin trapped at the end of their duel.


Hitsu used his shikai to trap Gin whom had not used shikai yet, and then Gin uses shikai ONCE, and then the following ensues:
Accept Gin's Shikai didn't really help him much

-HItsugaya is forced to dodge a point blank extending sword/spear, losing his tactical advantage
How exactly, the only thing Shinsou would have done would be to kill Momo, thus sending Hitsugaya into a berserk rage destroying a large part of the Sereitei. If Momo died, we'd have an uncontrollable Tenso Jurin with Gin as the target.

-Gin is no longer trapped (although his arm was still iced for whatever reason)
Why was he no longer trapped. Hitsugaya only released him AFTER their duel was finished

-Gin could somewhat reasonably not make the blame of killing HInamori on him, he coulda just said he was fending off against Hitsugaya, and Hitsugaya dodged his extending sword/spear, which just so happened to be pointed straight at Momo as well (we obviously know he did it on purpose though)
Your point. Irrelevant statement


Basically, had Matsumoto not arrived, Momo would have died and guess who wouldn't take the fall, Gin. Hitsugaya was the aggressor in the fight, as he did start it, he in fact also knocked Hinamori unconcious, all Gin would have to say in front of central 46 was he was practicing self-defense, and a stray sword strike just happened to hit Momo and kill her.

The Central 46 that was obliterated right? Besides Captains can kill other Captains with reason, if a Lieutenant is caught in it too bad. I doubt any serious punishment would be inflicted on a Captain for killing a VC by accident, or even killing a fellow Captain in a skirmish.
Kenpachi killed a captain for his title and got promoted for it.

How do people not see how much Gin just played Hitsu there?

He got his arm encased in Ice. If he had killed Hinamori he would have been in deep shit. Out of all of the Captains in the Gotei 13 none have the potential of Hitsugaya. When a kid who can't fully control his powers goes berserk not only Gin but a big chunk of the Sereitei would be destroyed.

Random101
July 28, 2009, 11:20 PM
I don't see where people are getting this whole "Hitsu beat Gin in their skirmish" thing.

Hitsu used his shikai to trap Gin whom had not used shikai yet, and then Gin uses shikai ONCE, and then the following ensues:

-HItsugaya is forced to dodge a point blank extending sword/spear, losing his tactical advantage
-Gin is no longer trapped (although his arm was still iced for whatever reason)
-Gin could somewhat reasonably not make the blame of killing HInamori on him, he coulda just said he was fending off against Hitsugaya, and Hitsugaya dodged his extending sword/spear, which just so happened to be pointed straight at Momo as well (we obviously know he did it on purpose though)


Basically, had Matsumoto not arrived, Momo would have died and guess who wouldn't take the fall, Gin. Hitsugaya was the aggressor in the fight, as he did start it, he in fact also knocked Hinamori unconcious, all Gin would have to say in front of central 46 was he was practicing self-defense, and a stray sword strike just happened to hit Momo and kill her.

How do people not see how much Gin just played Hitsu there?
Considering Gin's Shikai is, in essence, a single attack (and not even a particularly good one), that's not all that surprising. I mean really, do you realize how short that thing was? Anime extended it with that swordplay scene (In which Hitsugaya still had the edge anyway), but in essence it was pretty much just that one bit in the manga.

I mean basically, summed up, Hitsugaya throws Ice, Ichimaru dodges, he throws some more, Ichimaru blocks (or dodges again, hard to tell (http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/000106982/07.jpg)), Hitsugaya uses the cover from that clash to trap him and put him in a position where he's good as dead, Ichimaru (while for the first time opening his eyes) uses shikai, Hitsugaya dodges it, while still in good position to cut Ichimaru in half (I'm serious look at that again (http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/000106982/11.jpg), though that first one makes it hard to tell, in the second to last panel he was still standing from that dodge, he didn't lose his tactical advantage at all), and Ichimaru is still trapped (http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/000106982/13.jpg) (Chain is still there) and can't easily do anything in his position.

That's three passes between the two of them, and that last pass Ichimaru would be in a tight spot. Frankly, if Hinamori hadn't been there, the guy would have been in a really bad position. In fact, had Hinamori gotten killed, we now have Uberpissed Hitsugaya, and Gin still trapped, his sword already extended meaning he can't easily block what's to come.

In essence no one really won that fight, but Hitsugaya clearly had the edge, and as of that ending it's REALLY hard to argue Gin wasn't serious right there. Granted Gin played dirty, and it's hard to say he was serious before using his shikai but right then is hard to argue, yet it was still dodged while leaving the kid in a good position to counter.

En Yang Ji
July 29, 2009, 12:17 AM
- Gin probably wasn't all that serious. It seems like Ichimaru was purposely giving Hitsugaya time to dodge, because he wanted to kill Hinamori. If Gin wanted to, he could of released his zanpakatou without announing it. Had Gin not said anything, Hitsugaya may not of been able to barely dodge it like he did in this pic: http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/132/11/

- Gin knew that Aizen didn't want to kill Hinamori himself, so he probably decided to do it for him.

Random101
July 29, 2009, 12:32 AM
If the thing's a fraction of an inch from his eye in an instant, that's not giving him time to dodge, that's a near hit at an intentionally fatal blow. Oh sure it headed for Hinamori right after... but first thing it went for was an attempt at the kids skull.

And while I agree that he probably wasn't completely serious before using his shikai (as he mainly dodged the two times previously, though I stress again how short this was), given that his usage of it granted one of the few times we've ever seen him open his eyes, it's a VERY hard case to argue that he wasn't serious right there.

DARK
July 30, 2009, 01:46 PM
Byakuya. Hitsugaya is inexperienced and tends to be rash in battle. Byakuya also had high-leveled Kidou on his side; when was the last time Hitsugaya has ever used Kidou?

Random101
July 30, 2009, 02:32 PM
Back when he used that door thing. Though really, how often is kido used in fights. You'd think someone with the proficiency of Byakuya would use it a hell of a lot more often, rather than sparingly in his fights.

Also while I don't disagree with you, Byakuya himself is pretty rash to the point of stupidity at times, the entire vow he made about his Senkei being the prime example, as well as thinking he wouldn't even need bankai to take Ichigo after seeing him take out the arc, when his own shikai is rather sub par for anyone other than mooks.

DARK
July 30, 2009, 02:39 PM
Back when he used that door thing. Though really, how often is kido used in fights. You'd think someone with the proficiency of Byakuya would use it a hell of a lot more often, rather than sparingly in his fights.

Also while I don't disagree with you, Byakuya himself is pretty rash to the point of stupidity at times, the entire vow he made about his Senkei being the prime example, as well as thinking he wouldn't even need bankai to take Ichigo after seeing him take out the arc, when his own shikai is rather sub par for anyone other than mooks.

I was talking about offensive or binding Kido in battle. Byakuya uses Kido as a method of battle where he feels that using his zanpakuto is unncessary.
Byakuya is very rash when it came to willingly stab himself to prevent Zommari from controlling himself. Byakuya probably showed Ichigo his Senkei because he respected his opponent. In addition, he said that they did not have that much spiritual power left, and was overpowered by the hollow. Most of the time, however, Byakuya is rather reserved in combat and is not quick to use his zanpakuto. The most primary example being his fight(s) with Renji, where he only used Bankai as a last resort and it was only to show Renji his Bankai. The difference of their power.
Hitsugaya is much more willing to use his Bankai in combat (which is why he does use it a lot more often in the series, especially the anime filler arcs).

Random101
July 30, 2009, 02:50 PM
I agree that he uses offensive more, but generally he uses Kido while or after using his Zanpakuto. Dude uses it sporadically.

Also wrong thing dude. I'm talking about his vow discussed earlier, where he won't have the thousand blades of Senkei attack his opponent, only showing it to one he wanted to slay personally. That's rashness, particularly against Ichigo, who was many times faster than him. Had he not started slowing down, he'd have been screwed right there.

Also while Hitsugaya has used it more times (Frankly due to being the main captain in the mini arc then along with extenuating circumstances)... Note that Shikai's, save the broken ones, have become pretty much obsolete since the middle of the Soul Society arc. Hell, Byakuya didn't even USE his shikai at all in the fight against Zommari, skipping straight to Bankai. Dude doesn't use it as a last resort, he's simply too proud too unless he either has to, or wants to carve fear into the other guy's heart. Which in itself would kinda count against him.

DARK
July 30, 2009, 06:50 PM
I agree that he uses offensive more, but generally he uses Kido while or after using his Zanpakuto. Dude uses it sporadically.

Also wrong thing dude. I'm talking about his vow discussed earlier, where he won't have the thousand blades of Senkei attack his opponent, only showing it to one he wanted to slay personally. That's rashness, particularly against Ichigo, who was many times faster than him. Had he not started slowing down, he'd have been screwed right there.

Also while Hitsugaya has used it more times (Frankly due to being the main captain in the mini arc then along with extenuating circumstances)... Note that Shikai's, save the broken ones, have become pretty much obsolete since the middle of the Soul Society arc. Hell, Byakuya didn't even USE his shikai at all in the fight against Zommari, skipping straight to Bankai. Dude doesn't use it as a last resort, he's simply too proud too unless he either has to, or wants to carve fear into the other guy's heart. Which in itself would kinda count against him.

Yes, but that was of a matter of respect and a desire to kill. You can say that it is "rash" to do so, but he doesn't use the same damn attack every time. Byakuya improvises with the battle. He can use Senkei for offensive in one battle, Senkei as a shield in the next, and Gokei in the one afterwards. Hitsugaya just swings around his sword and create icicles.

Let's see- out of all of the current Captains who have the ability to use Bankai, only 6 of them have used it- Soifon (although she hated it), Byakuya, Komamura, Tosen, Hitsugaya, and Kurotsuchi. If people felt that their Shikai were "obsolete," then all of the Captains would have just used Bankai immediately at the start of the battle. Besides, Bankai is taxing on the user and that they really cannot use it for extended periods of time.

Random101
July 30, 2009, 09:30 PM
No, reread what he said. Senkei will only be shown to the one who he wished to slay personally (I linked it earlier). He's not going to be using it any other way, despite it being stronger than the previous states, including Goukei. Meaning in essence he's going to be using a supped up version of his shikai as opposed to attacking with a mass amount of blades. That comment of his is a massive damper on any theory to the contrary. And subsequently shows just how much his pride can get in the way (Provided he can do that of course).

Also note that not all the captains have fought since that arc. Note instead the captains that fought in this one. Excluding the oldest of captains and the traitors (Who naturally can afford to use shikai), the only ones who know bankai and yet have used shikai since Byakuya's fight with Ichigo have been Hitsugaya, who barely used it for long in any of the two times since then against Yammi or Harribel, Soifon, whose is broken and thus exempted, Renji, who was forced to as he was weak in the Soul Society arc after his fight with Byakuya and subsequently couldn't use his bankai against Number Eight (Both times they pretty much did diddly squat), and Ichigo, who did it to make a point, but even then couldn't do crap with it.

Note Byakuya, Mayuri, and Komamura have all faught since then, and in their fights their shikai's didn't even come out, they actually DID skip straight to bankai (As did Hitsugaya in two instances). Hell, Ichigo's been doing that himself, in some cases skipping straight to the mask a few times. Granted you can argue Komamura since his fight was pretty much the same as Hitsugaya's against Luppi, getting seemingly pwned and then turning around and pwning, but Byakuya's and Mayuri's were actually fights, and Mayuri's shikai is pretty broken in itself. I mean really, even if you take into account the mook battles with the VCs this is pretty sad. Particularly snce the people we're talking about are mooks.

Mifune_Taichou
August 02, 2009, 01:54 PM
This is something which could be relevant in a fight between these two-in a fight in SS, Hitsugaya would be able to fly while Byakuya cant do what they do in the real world. That could actually give him a real edge-Just be out of range and rain down ice attacks.

benelori
August 08, 2009, 12:48 PM
This is something which could be relevant in a fight between these two-in a fight in SS, Hitsugaya would be able to fly while Byakuya cant do what they do in the real world. That could actually give him a real edge-Just be out of range and rain down ice attacks.


Actually flying is unimportant, when they can shunpo in air, and even if flying would be an advantage, senbonzakura is pretty much long range attack, i always compare it to gaara's sand

L5Death
August 15, 2009, 01:13 PM
... I don't usually post (like, ever), buuuuut, since the manga I've held to be my all time favorite over the years, has, I feel, been utterly ruined by several recent events, namely the Hitsu-Halibel fight, I guess I'll actually share my opinion on it... So yeah, anyway, it's pretty obvious Bya should be way out of Hitsu's league, yet I didn't think twice about voting for the nasty little punk. Why? Well, it's more a matter of people's incessant tendency to attempt to explain Bleach as if it's a logical, well-done, LEGITIMATE story regardless of the countless and CLEARLY poor decisions Kubo has made with this manga lately. Especially with Hitsugaya (and Kenpachi, really), in which case it's been for longer than the last arc. I mean, c'mon, Hitsu is a CAPTAIN, a child prodigy... didn't he always seem a little TOO weak to fit this description (until now, of course)... why didn't Kubo just let him win against Luppi, or beat Shawlong WITHOUT the limit (maybe not OWN, but beat)... it really wouldn't have been much of a stretch, considering Grimmjow vs. Luppi and Shawlong's status (come to think of it why did it have to happen like that anyway? Either Luppi could have put up somewhat of a fight, or been explicitly stated as weaker, right?) But really, none of that was a huge deal at all, and Bleach was still quite enjoyable, even pretty believable (note I did NOT say realistic, just to prevent misinterpretation...). But this same Hitsugaya putting up such a battle against the THIRD Espada (yes I know, water and ice, but that was just another poor choice for Kubo, IMO, considering the inherent anticlimactic-ness of it, especially being such a major battle)? Possible, I say, but WITH significant training. So
WHY the bleeping !%#@ did Kubo not mention ANY kind of training AT ALL, and still follow through with the battle like that!!? Could he not have Halibel say "You are the same shinigami that fought [insert every Arrancar he'd fought to that point], are you not?" Hitsu say something like "I am... However, I have grown much stronger the time since then, Arrancar... prepare yourself" This is so obvious I'm VERY surprised that for one, I have not seen one person mention this on any of the forums I lurk on, and two, freaking KUBO couldn't come up with THAT, let alone anything creative, for ****'s sake. /rant So yeah, definitely Hitsuphail would win at this point, but at least now you all know how much I've been wangsting over this.

Random101
August 15, 2009, 01:54 PM
Actually that's a common misconception, Hitsugaya did beat Luppi. As a matter of fact he owned Luppi so bad that not only did he knock him out of his released state, Aizen later made fun of how wounded he was in the process. Granted he didn't get to finish him off, Grimmjaw got that honor in his wounded state, and similarly that was hardly a fight, as Hitsugaya faked a dive, came back completely unwounded from it after preparing his finisher and effectively ended it, but it was a victory none the less.

I will agree said fight against the third espada was not only thoroughly unimpressive but WTF inducing as well given Ulquilorra effectively incapitating if not outright defeating Vizard Ichigo. Though I've ALWAYS said the power scale makes a hell of a lot more sense if you just ignore all of Ichigo's fights, which would certainly hold true here too. Kenpachi and Hitsugaya's victories certainly make a lot more sense because of it.

En Yang Ji
August 15, 2009, 03:27 PM
Hitsugaya did take damage from Luppi's attack: http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/234/14/

Luppi probably did have the power to kill Hitsugaya. If Hitsugaya didn't take damage from Luppi's attack and was unphased he would have no reason to fake a dive. Even though it might not of been easy, he could of just beat Luppi.

Also Luppi said this: http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/236/17/
He probably wouldn't have said that if there was a significant difference in power.

I think Hitsugaya was on the 5th espada's level during his fight with Halibel. There was a significant difference in power between her and Hitsu. Unreleased she was probably way stronger than Hitsu.

El Samurai Guapo
August 15, 2009, 03:34 PM
I will agree said fight against the third espada was not only thoroughly unimpressive but WTF inducing as well given Ulquilorra effectively incapitating if not outright defeating Vizard Ichigo. Though I've ALWAYS said the power scale makes a hell of a lot more sense if you just ignore all of Ichigo's fights, which would certainly hold true here too. Kenpachi and Hitsugaya's victories certainly make a lot more sense because of it.

It does make sense, and it's really not that hard. People just have to accept the fact that Ichigo is not at captain level, and that all the fights in SS were obviously handed to him.

Even the fight against Renji. Renji could have easily used that move he used against Aizen (where Zabimaru has to be broken) to finish Ichigo off, but he instead approached him and asked him to save Rukia.

The problem with Bleach is not any of these "unexplained powerups" that people like to rant about, it's the fact that this manga has such a pathetic and weak kuso-gaki as the main character....especially when there's so many other badass characters in the manga that are 234083057293483x more fit to lead the story. I hate Ichigo, and I hate Ulquiorra even more for not finishing that lowly piece of garbage off.

Random101
August 15, 2009, 03:59 PM
Hitsugaya did take damage from Luppi's attack: http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/234/14/

Luppi probably did have the power to kill Hitsugaya. If Hitsugaya didn't take damage from Luppi's attack and was unphased he would have no reason to fake a dive. Even though it might not of been easy, he could of just beat Luppi.

Also Luppi said this: http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/236/17/
He probably wouldn't have said that if there was a significant difference in power.

I think Hitsugaya was on the 5th espada's level during his fight with Halibel. There was a significant difference in power between her and Hitsu. Unreleased she was probably way stronger than Hitsu.
Where there do you see damage? I mean it seriously. Not a scratch on him, no visible wounds at all, all he's doing is inclining is head, likely focusing on something like we know he was doing. Hell, the ice around him even looks solid. I mean really, that's no evidence at all, and in fact only supports the fact that he's doing what he said he did, fake a dive to power up and take him out in one blow.

Also Luppi's line effectively means nothing. People say crap like that all the freaking time, and it's especially true for the weaker ones. Particularly Yammi, though granted he got a stupid plot based powerup that gives his words a tad more bite.

En Yang Ji
August 15, 2009, 09:58 PM
I made a really long post, but my cousin changed the website before I posted it :(

- Imo Hitsu wasn't concentrating on anything in this pic: http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/234/14/ He probably wasn't collecting moisture for his attack because he hadn't reformed his bankai yet. I doubt he was focusing on reforming his bankai, because he doesn't need to concentrate for that: http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/358/17/

- If Hitsu didn't take damage from Luppi's attack's he wouldn't need to hide. If one Luppi's strongest attacks couldn't hurt him Hitsu could of just killed him.

- Luppi said that after attacking Hitsu and taking his attack.

Random101
August 15, 2009, 10:28 PM
And how do you see a non reformed bankai right there? From what little is shown, there's nothing to reform. In fact when he fell it was pretty much intact as is (abet with small chunks hit off), so there's logically speaking little to reform. You'd have a case if it actually showed anything, but as it stands you're kinda seeing things that really aren't there.

Similarly Hitsugaya outright said he needed time to set up the attack, so that right there tells you why he faked the dive. I mean really that's just common sense, they gave you all the facts right there.

Finally after getting hit by the attack he was apparently wounded enough for Aizen to make fun of him as compared to when Hitsugaya came back he had not a wound on him (Which again you've failed to disprove at all) so your last bit means, again, nothing. People just say those things. Had he said something along the lines of implying he had a stronger attack or form, then you'd have a point with that line of thought, but as it stands you're grasping at straws dude.

Nothing from that image implies he took any significant damage from that attack, partly because it's small as is, but mostly because there's no damage shown at all. Had there been some blood or something then you could claim it, but as it stands he doesn't even have a speck of dirt or grim on him on his return (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/234/23/) to imply even minimal wounds.

Edit: Further what there implies that was Luppi's strongest attack? An attack by all 8 arms is his best? Really? When he can make spikes come out of them? Or how about a cero or something. I mean really. Similarly provided he couldn't use something stronger, which we already know, Hitsugaya certainly didn't know that. In a choice between ending a fight instantly or risking a drawn out battle on the unknown with a moderately high ranked espada when they had to release the limit on mooks, that's clearly the smarter decision right there.

InnerHollow
August 20, 2009, 03:35 PM
My question concerning this match up would involve their Shikais and Bankais. Would Hitsu's Hy┼Źrinmaru be able to freeze the Senbonzakura's petals and cancel them out? That would be interesting to see.
I think in once of the fillers a bount enemy used the wind to cancel out the petals.

Random101
August 20, 2009, 04:26 PM
That's more or less what would define whether or not Hitsugaya has a chance or is thoroughly screwed. Not enough information in canon to confirm either way, though I'd be inclined to believe he can based on what little we do know and have seen in regards to both of them.

El Samurai Guapo
August 20, 2009, 05:19 PM
That's more or less what would define whether or not Hitsugaya has a chance or is thoroughly screwed. Not enough information in canon to confirm either way, though I'd be inclined to believe he can based on what little we do know and have seen in regards to both of them.

I would believe so too. Those sakura objects are material objects, and so far we haven't seen anything that Shiro-chan can't freeze.

I think the real question here is: How good is Hitsugaya at using Kidou?
I know the databooks say he has a high score in Kidou, but we've yet to see him use any.

If Shiro-chan is on par with Byakuya in regards to Kidou, then I would give this match to him. If not, I'd say Byakuya would win. Bakudou no 61: Rikujou kourou would probably prevent Shiro-chan from being able to escape or freeze Senbonzakura.

kitten320
December 16, 2009, 06:07 PM
Byakuya.... he has more experience, he is faster... Hitsugaya freezing Senbonzakura? Can you really see him freezing thousand of blades at once?
Covering by wings? His wings don't cover him fully so he has a lot of openings.
Hitsugaya's mega attack? He would be dead before having chance to do it.

Raizen
December 22, 2009, 04:17 PM
Hitsu has used kido b4 when he put a barrier around momo. That barrier was sd to be high level

kitten320
December 22, 2009, 05:20 PM
Well it still doesn't show how good and most importantly fast he is with it.

Trotter
December 22, 2009, 05:31 PM
Kido are useless once Hitsugaya goes Bankai. His ice would most likely overpower and freeze the kido. The petals would probably be frozen too. Hitsugaya is far too deadly in close range combat for something like the White Sword to be used so I give this to Hitsugaya.

kitten320
December 22, 2009, 10:48 PM
Hitsu can't freeze thousand of petals at once from every side.

Random101
December 23, 2009, 12:21 AM
Yeah he can. You see the amount of ice he can create at once in shikai alone? The real question is whether or not the petals will stay frozen or will be able to break out, which is up for grabs and falls down to individual opinion.

exacta
December 23, 2009, 01:38 AM
Hitsugaya did take damage from Luppi's attack: http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/234/14/

Luppi probably did have the power to kill Hitsugaya. If Hitsugaya didn't take damage from Luppi's attack and was unphased he would have no reason to fake a dive. Even though it might not of been easy, he could of just beat Luppi.

Also Luppi said this: http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/236/17/
He probably wouldn't have said that if there was a significant difference in power.

I think Hitsugaya was on the 5th espada's level during his fight with Halibel. There was a significant difference in power between her and Hitsu. Unreleased she was probably way stronger than Hitsu.

People always overlook how Luppi would've owned Hitsugaya if he actually followed through instead of just ignoring his opponent afterwards. Luppi was actually strong, too bad Grimmjow blasted his upper torso away, would've been nice to see them fight one more time......

I suppose Hitsu could freeze all of Byakuya's petals. But, Byakuya could probably melt the ice pretty easily with Soukatsui....I think Byakuya's mastery of kido would win it for him. Granted, Hyoten Hyakasso is pretty broken, but, again, Soukatsui. Plus, his Bankai probably has more petals than Hyoten Hyakasso's ice flowers lol. Even against an opponent who can counter Byakuya's powers, his zanpakuto is still incredibly dangerous as long as Hitsugaya can't completely stop him from attacking with it. If Byakuya wasn't pretty capable without his zanpakuto, Hitsu might win it because his powers may be able to counter it. But he is, so I give it to Byakuya. Yeah, Soukatsui would definitely melt all that ice lol.....
[hr]

Hitsu has used kido b4 when he put a barrier around momo. That barrier was sd to be high level

That barrier was very easy to break from the inside, he even said it himself, although Hitsu used that particular barrier intentionally being fully aware of that fact, so I suppose he could use some decent kido.

Random101
December 23, 2009, 03:29 AM
Soukatsui being able to melt it would also be up for grabs given not only is there no basis whatsoever for a clash, the attack doesn't appear to have much heat involved in it. This is of course ignoring filler in which Hyourinmaru freezes freaking fire, as filler is filler of course, but yeah heat didn't seem like that big an issue with that attack given those who take it, even defense wise really don't 'burn' or even notice it at all. Whether or not you buy it would fall to opinion. BLAST it open sure, but melt I would save for Yamamoto's fire, given this is supposed to be the strongest ice type. >>

Fox666
December 23, 2009, 04:23 AM
C'mon guys, you can't be serious, this is a piece of cake for Toshiro!

Ishigo didn't had any special ability for most of time he owned Byakuya. It was just speed.

Now, Ichigo speed was nothing against the unreleased form of Grimmjow. His hollow form also was quite useless against Ulquiorra. But Toshiro dodged quite easy against Hannibel.

Starkk looked like he was teleporting in the eyes of Ichigo, Barragan also appeared from nowere behind Soifon for what I remember. Toshiro otherwise matched Hannibal speed.

For all I can say, if Ichigo could place his sword two times in Byakuya neck and dodge the petals, it would be just a piece of cake for Hitsugaya.

Random101
December 23, 2009, 04:29 AM
That's assuming the power levels remained constant. Ichigo alone heavily implies that isn't the case because he's been utter trash of late even with his new form boost.

Raizen
December 24, 2009, 04:54 PM
@exacta The barrier hitsu used was easy to break from the inside but also stated to be extremely difficult to break from the outside

As for can hitsu freeze teh petals, perhaps he can. I saw in one animation that he did freeze byakuya's petals, i think it was for a game or something lol.

I think hitsu is quite powerful but byakuya is skilled too. TO tell u the truth this battle can go either way. Hitsu really impressed me in the halibel fight.

Sinedd
December 28, 2009, 05:34 AM
That's assuming the power levels remained constant. Ichigo alone heavily implies that isn't the case because he's been utter trash of late even with his new form boost.

Yes, but Mr. Kurosaki is very special since he is the main character. Wouldn't a main character with a constant power level be kind of boring?

Random101
December 28, 2009, 03:50 PM
No, it'd cause less of a headache. Especially when the entire scale only makes sense when you ignore him.

Actually let me correct that. A main character who advances is preferable. Here we have a strong main character who, after gaining new forms and greater levels of power now appears far weaker than people he previously matched or was on a similar level to in his lesser forms.

Ozehro
July 04, 2010, 05:24 AM
I would love to see this fight happen in the manga.
but for the moment we'll just have to imagine this fight.lol.
Let's see now, Byakuya is incredibly agile,so he will be able to dodge
most of the direction based ice attacks. although he would face
serious difficult in trying to use his ranged particle attacks, since they
could be frozen in to chunks of ice by Hitsugaya. He would have to
go in to angel mode and focus on sword strikes. where as Hitsugaya
may have slow attacks but has hottenhyakusho, which seems to
cover a massive area, thus making speed somewhat irrelevant.

I would say that Byakuya will eventually win after much difficulty.

Random101
July 04, 2010, 02:34 PM
There's already one of these a while back.

Edit: This one: http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50259

Merged threads

ninjabot
July 28, 2014, 07:42 PM
Nah.

A lot of Random101's post assumes that Byakuya wouldn't opt to blow apart the ice that was freezing his zanpakuto together by using a Soukatsui or Byakurai. Hitsugaya also has no attacks that can freeze the entirety of Byakuya's petals in one blow even if they are all in one collective, aside from his most powerful attack, which requires an absurd amount of charge time to eventually prepare.