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R4zr
July 09, 2009, 01:51 PM
There goes again the question..we all know that bankai increases the power of shikai by 5-10 times...then just what can be stronger than Aizen's shikai, also called "The Matrix"? :D Your thoughts on this matter are welcomed.

Rotten The Wizard
July 09, 2009, 02:37 PM
Aizens Shikai is a hypnosis. His bankai however....the ability to control people? That would be the next logical stage in his theme.

Yakedo-Tenchou
July 09, 2009, 03:07 PM
I've oddly enough had this feeling for a while that what he says is his Shikai is actually his Bankai. Kanzen Saimin seems like an ability that is itself on the level of a Bankai. He can control everything the enemy sees, tastes, smells, and probably hears. And his release command seems more like Tousen's "Smash his limbs!" thing. "Shatter," which breaks his illusion. I can't think of anything better than indirectly influencing someone's actions than controlling them which seems overpowered.

And another thing, I've noticed that his Shikai doesn't transform which is extremely rare in the series. Yamamoto's turns into a blade of flames, Kyouraku's and Ukitake's split into two... Almost every Shikai except Tousen's and Komamura's transforms in some way as far as I know. And if you look at them even further, when they release their Bankais, their swords yet again don't change. Could that signify something?

-Ren Boy-
July 09, 2009, 03:31 PM
The illusions become the reality. Basically Aizen can do what ever he wants lol

En Yang Ji
July 09, 2009, 03:49 PM
I think Aizen's bankai may be like Soi fon's. His bankai's ability may be barely related to his shikai's ability.

Judau Ashta
July 09, 2009, 04:07 PM
Aizen's bankai makes him split into multiple copies. All with the same power and abilities as the original.

Would make sense since he is horribly outnumbered right now.

sindergi
July 09, 2009, 04:20 PM
Aizen's bankai makes him split into multiple copies. All with the same power and abilities as the original.

Would make sense since he is horribly outnumbered right now.

Kagebushin no Jotsu ? :p

I dont think that his Bankai is related to his shikai - i think its something total different....but of course powerful.

Dark God Zeus
July 10, 2009, 01:27 AM
I think complete control of people surpasses the line of hax. I mean, at least "complete hypnosis" does have some level of weaknesses to it, and it can be "sensed" apparantly. Also, creating tangible situations (Aka, illusions becoming reality) definetly is way too hax as well, "hey, I think I'll imagine a blackhole right now!"

1) kyokasuigetsu means something like Flower mirror Water moon. Well, a mirror reflects a flower, and the water reflects the moon. So, from this, I think a bankai could multiply physical copies of him by at least two, with all of his abilities and everything. It'd be pretty damn hard to fight three, let alone one, Aizen with his abilities.

2) Perhaps his zanpaktou's name means it reflects other things? If so, I think another possible power would be that it materializes his target's zanpaktou. This could mean if they are materialized they can't use the full extent of their abilities, or the actual spirit could turn on them (while they still maintain their abilities). If it made a bunch of sword spirits on his side that would certaintly even numbers out.

Josear XIII
July 10, 2009, 08:46 AM
I've oddly enough had this feeling for a while that what he says is his Shikai is actually his Bankai. Kanzen Saimin seems like an ability that is itself on the level of a Bankai. He can control everything the enemy sees, tastes, smells, and probably hears.

Not probably, it does affect your hearing.

TheLoneWarrior222
July 10, 2009, 05:50 PM
Aizen's Ban Kai is called "I Win". Once he releases he wins at everything, all the time, forever. Different cards, everytime, he still wins.

Obscenity
July 10, 2009, 09:00 PM
I think it'll clone not him, but his opponents, forcing them to fight themselves. It'd help explain why he never seems perturbed no mater how outnumbered he appears to be. It would be a perfect way for him to turn his enemies' strength into his own. I just wonder if the "evil twins" will have mustaches or not...

Arch!
July 10, 2009, 10:02 PM
It's hard to beat 'complete hypnosis', but I think it would be cool his bankai gave him some kind of Shang Tsung (MK II) ability to steal his opponent's power, letting him fully mimic their zanpakuto.

Keiji
July 10, 2009, 10:40 PM
I think it'll clone not him, but his opponents, forcing them to fight themselves. It'd help explain why he never seems perturbed no mater how outnumbered he appears to be. It would be a perfect way for him to turn his enemies' strength into his own. I just wonder if the "evil twins" will have mustaches or not...

Well, that ability has already been taken. Remember WAYY back with that crazy espada that Captain Kurotsuchi killed? (I believe his name was Szayel Aporro Granz if I'm not mistaken) he dispensed a liquid that made an exact clone with the same abilities and stuff. I don't think that tite would use the same ability twice, especially for a character as big as Aizen.

Anyway, I believe that his bankai does relate to his shikai. Just like everyone else's.

I.E - Captain Komamura, Kurotsuchi, Ichigo, Renji, Byakuya, Tosen, Soifon..ect

But the thing is, I don't know what could be better than 'complete hypnoses' since it is "Complete"

Its hard to take a guess at something like that..

JP_Russell
July 13, 2009, 01:42 AM
Wow. I'm not usually one who speculates about characters' unrevealed bankais unless they seem like something fairly predictable. And Aizen's is a hard one to crack, one I never would have thought I'd theorize about. But I was just thinking now, and somehow, it hit me. Maybe his bankai gives him some sort of abilities of a "god." Now, I know his shikai isn't related to that on the surface, being for purposes of deception. But it does allow him to play God, to manipulate people to do what he wants them to do in order to play into his grand scheme, so you might think of it relating in that sense. And of course, we all know Aizen pretty much has a god complex.

And when I look at all that as Aizen's theme as a character, and look at his analysis of Orihime's abilities, it makes me think of a possible scenario. What if he knew what Orihime's Shun Shun Rika's abilities were (phenomenon/event rejection/negation) not because he's just an incredible genius with amazing perceptive abilities as one might think on the surface, but because he himself is able to create phenomenons/events with the unsealed state of his zanpakuto, his bankai (I'm not sure exactly how something like that would work, and obviously it would have limitations [i.e., he couldn't just activate his bankai and decide "the enemies before me will die," and they drop dead lickety-split; it can't be overpowered in such a stupid way] just like Orihime's abilities have limitations to what and how much they can do [though obviously Aizen's bankai would be more capable than her abilities are now]).

He said that Orihime's power encroaches on God's territory. What if he meant himself as much as he meant a hypothetical "God?" He said she could overturn decisions handed down by God Himself. Again, what if he was half-referring to himself and to his power, in a twisted, amalgamative statement from both the logical (God being a hypothetical, supernatural being) and fantastic (himself being he who is and will be God) parts of his mind? What if his reason for kidnapping Orihime and doing something to her (whatever that was), was to try to keep her from becoming a threat to him, or to use her for his own ends (or both). That would be from the logical part of his mind. Then maybe in a sick, twisted way he really does even want to make her his "bride" as some have theorized. Maybe in the course of enacting his ambitions to rise to deity, along came Orihime into the picture, and on seeing her powers, he both wanted to keep her from being used against him, and wanted to make her his, as though he made the connection that it was fated for him to be with the only woman who could be at odds with and compliment his power (the power of God as he sees it) simultaneously, in the same way a woman's traits are at odds with and compliment a man's traits simultaneously. As though she was his fated, divine companion. That would be from the demented, fantastic part of his mind.

So, by this theory, his bankai would create or set in motion a phenomenon, a happening, would "make it so." And Orihime's ability directly defies his, is there for no other purpose than to "make it not so."

Obviously this is a reeeaaally loose theory, and almost as loose of a concept, but the more I think about it, the more I want it to be something along the lines of this. It'd be so fitting for a villain like Aizen. :D

Snake_Cowboy
July 13, 2009, 02:20 AM
^Very nice post. :D Great theory.

I've been thinking about the not-yet-shown Bankais aswell, but Aizen's is undoubtedly the most difficult to imagine. As others have stated, his Shikai is already so incredible, how could his Bankai possibly improve upon it? The way I see it, there are several plausible theories:

1) Aizen's Bankai creates a whole illusionary world in the mind of anyone who sees it. This certainly fits with the theme of Kyouka Suigetsu, allowing Aizen to take full control of everything his enemies experience. While I do like this theory, it seems a bit too predictable; it would basically be an upgraded hypnosis, nothing special (well, it would still be amazing, but you know what I mean). A highly powerful technique from his Shikai might be capable of doing the very same thing.

2) Making illusions a reality. Basically what JP_russel said above. I agree that it would definitely make Aizen feel like a god, but it would obviously be limited. The question is: how would it work exactly? Let's take Grimmjow's arm as an example: Orihime rejected the fact that Grimmjow's arm was gone; in this theory, Aizen would've been able to will a new arm into existence. So basically, Aizen can cause certain events to become real whereas Orihime can reject anything that happens, able to undo whatever it is that Aizen creates. (in an odd parallel, this would technically make Orihime a destroyer and Aizen a creator)

3) My personal theory: Aizen's Bankai influences fate itself. Rather than just create something from nothing, Aizen's Bankai manipulates the whole world slightly to his will. Things like chance and luck would favour Aizen, because his Bankai allows him to manipulate fate and design his own future. I think this sticks with the theme of Kyouka Suigetsu aswell, because he uses those illusions to manipulate everyone around him. It would fit with his desire to become a god, guiding the whole world to his will. This would also explain why Aizen is so incredibly arrogant and never worried: whatever happens, he can just use his Bankai to literally 'get lucky'. Of course, those abilities would still be limited, so he can't use it to take on the whole of Soul Society on his own, for example.

I personally opt for options 2 and 3.

JP_Russell
July 13, 2009, 02:51 AM
2) Making illusions a reality. Basically what JP_russel said above. I agree that it would definitely make Aizen feel like a god, but it would obviously be limited. The question is: how would it work exactly? Let's take Grimmjow's arm as an example: Orihime rejected the fact that Grimmjow's arm was gone; in this theory, Aizen would've been able to will a new arm into existence. So basically, Aizen can cause certain events to become real whereas Orihime can reject anything that happens, able to undo whatever it is that Aizen creates. (in an odd parallel, this would technically make Orihime a destroyer and Aizen a creator)

Ah, yes, that's something I thought about. I think that would have to be its most binding limitation. It could will in all but that which was already fated out of existence. Or more specifically, it could create an event that was not the reversal of a previous event. That would further emphasize him wanting Orihime to compliment his power; if he could control her somehow, he would be able to use her ability to do those things his could not.

In fact, thinking on it, of course he couldn't will out his enemies from existence, because their existence was an event all by itself. He would be deciding to overturn the decision for something to come into existence, something Orihime's Tsubaki is made to do, thus by nature Aizen would be incapable of it.

I like how you point out that Aizen would be a creator and Orihime a destroyer, I hadn't thought of it that way.

blackordus
July 13, 2009, 02:58 AM
Perhaps his bankai is about illusions that become reality.

But actually that's a good point for Orihime, maybe it was part of the plan to lock in the threats first in Hueco Mundo (Ichigo and buddies) Then take out the other threats before they had the chance too converge on them.

Arrogance
July 13, 2009, 12:50 PM
hmmm, well we already know that his shikai causes a hypnosis. And I'm trying to see how it could possibly be taken to the next level with his bankai. You figure a hypnosis of sorts can decieve or fool the mind so in thinking of that, what If Aizen could actually get into your mind with his bankai. Instead of just decieving the mind, he can go into it and mess with it. This is completely a random thought, but if this was to be the case, and he was to use it on Ichigo in the final battle, it would make for some great inner conflict. We already have Ichigo having conflicts with Shirosaki, yet if Aizen was to somehow get into his head through his bankai, it would be very interesting to see an internal interaction between Aizen, Ichigo, Shirosaki, (Zangetsu).

Weapon_X
July 13, 2009, 07:05 PM
The way I see Aizen's Bankai is similar to Itachi's Tsukiyomi.

Aizen's Shikai = Normal Genjutsu
Aizen's Bankai = Tsukiyomi

In Bankai mode he would be able to catch people in his illusions and torture them for a million days but in reality it's only 0.1 Second. :o

A bit of an overkill? :amuse

Zatono
July 13, 2009, 07:40 PM
The way I see Aizen's Bankai is similar to Itachi's Tsukiyomi.

Aizen's Shikai = Normal Genjutsu
Aizen's Bankai = Tsukiyomi

In Bankai mode he would be able to catch people in his illusions and torture them for a million days but in reality it's only 0.1 Second. :o

A bit of an overkill? :amuse

Holy crap, why not just give him Amaterasu, they're both basically OHKO's anyway...

But enough with the Naruto stuff, I'm hoping for a bankai that's completely different from his shikai, because he could of simply controlled Yama if the next step was control, and just pwn all of SS.

exacta
July 13, 2009, 08:45 PM
Holy crap, why not just give him Amaterasu, they're both basically OHKO's anyway...

But enough with the Naruto stuff, I'm hoping for a bankai that's completely different from his shikai, because he could of simply controlled Yama if the next step was control, and just pwn all of SS.

Well, I was thinking maybe his Bankai would be somewhat like Itachi's Susano'o..... like some giant entity with even more hax illusion abilities. Maybe this entity could make the illusions real, like in Reborn, or maybe it can trap the enemies mind in some parallel illusion world or something.....just speculation of course.

The only reason I like this theory is I just think it'd be real cool if Aizen Bankai's was a summoning kind of sorts like Mayuri's or Komamura's, and summons some big angelic looking entity. Or maybe some kind of moon god, since it would go with his Zanpakuto. I would really like that, but again this is loose speculation...

Yans86
August 29, 2009, 01:49 AM
Right now,I think grasped Kyouka Suigetsu weak point:
Everytime Aizen's attack a person during the illusion......the illusion shatters(kinda like touching Tousen's sword) but valid also for kido attack.That's why he always use a 1-hit-ko...and that's why anyone is surprised when they get hitted and sees Aizen close to them while the illusione fade/disappear.

Another point of Kyouka Suigetsu,is that the illusion is a "picture"....Aizen stop his targets last "picture image" or his own "pictured image"(from the moment he cast the spell) and modify it like on "photoshop" or using it like an afterimage that u sense be true.
Keeping that:

1)he can let Gin and Tousen slaughter everyone until he attacks himself.(U'll keep seeing them on his sides while they r not)

2)He can move freely close to any enemy unnoticed,slice them with one hit,making the illusion shatter.

NOTICE:u never see him move from his place during the illusion...while actually he is really moving.
QUESTION:Why can't he move his image in different direction during the illusion?it would be really deceiving...
Probably he doesn't need to,but I think he can't at all.
NOTICE: when u attack his illusion it can appear that u hit him,as well as he take the attack heads on ecc...ecc....but he never moves....and actually even the surroundings never moves...as he stated he can make appear those surrounding differents but IMO it can't make appear NEW surroundings...

I think the only way to counterattack Kyouka Suigetsu are:

_take a hit and counter hit(problem is that Aizen's slash and kidou are so powerful that one hit,if is not a KO,is huge damage for sure)....Guess only Ichigonator with Hyper-regeneration can do it...

_be ready to counterattack him from behind(Shunsui's move) the moment he attacks someone,cause in that moment the illusion shatters.
(U most be as experienced and cold blooded as Shunsui and SoiFon to lose the focus due to fear or surprise of your friend falling...lose a split second against Aizen and even attacking from behind won't do it..)



As Aizen stated,KyoukaSuigetsu controls the 5 senses making u "MISINTERPRET"....which means that he can't create new images,he can only modify what u see,which is a huge difference.
ex.
He can show u "a dragon out of a fly"......and I dare say....he can't make that dragon appear like there are 5 dragons....

If my interpretation is good,even having multiply enemies in front of him,as long as he has someon on his side to kill them during the illusion,he won't have to much problem.

Question is,how can u isolate him from Tousen and Gin while he is casting the illusion??
U can't find those 2 under Aizen's illusion,but u CAN win against Aizen if he doesn't have backups to use...

It's a circle really harsh to break,the trick would be kill Gin and tousen before he can cast the illusion,but they r both captain level,so they split second they defend if taken by surprise,the illusion would be on.(REMEMBER that if u have bankai,u can use shikai without command)...

For a certain extent IMO Aizen and Tousen can SWITCH their position using Kyouka or Tousen's bankai.Cause Aizen has more powerful attacks to use against STRONGEST OPPONENTS like a Kenpachi....

I think that's also the reason why Tousen is so useful for him....
Gin is a killing machine so is ok :-P

Of course,even by passing those two,u'll have to face Aizen's bankai and his huge spiritual power...but we know that there are people that r close to him on this matter...

Mifune_Taichou
August 29, 2009, 08:51 AM
dude that is an AWESOME theory. I think you're spot on right. Now that I look over it-this is sooo true. Man well done.

Zatono
August 29, 2009, 09:58 AM
Hmm. I like it, but how do you know he's not choosing to shatter the illusion, because he likes how all the characters go "WUT!?!" after getting OHKO'd.

Also, with the 1HKO thing, he probably does that too because there's no reason to just slash them to let them live.

It's a good idea though, seeing that we really haven't seen anything that could help us get an idea of how to win against it, except not seeing it in the first place.

Gran Maestro
August 29, 2009, 10:03 AM
Right now,I think grasped Kyouka Suigetsu weak point:
Everytime Aizen's attack a person during the illusion......the illusion shatters(kinda like touching Tousen's sword) but valid also for kido attack.That's why he always use a 1-hit-ko...and that's why anyone is surprised when they get hitted and sees Aizen close to them while the illusione fade/disappear.

Didn't Komamura see the real Aizen (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/176/10/) before Aizen attacked him? :blink

Aizen's strategy is simple and effective. He switches places with a fake when he's out of his opponent's sight like during an explosion (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/170/16/) or a blow (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/176/08/). When the opponent focuses on the fake Aizen, the real Aizen finishes the defenseless opponent.


Another point of Kyouka Suigetsu,is that the illusion is a "picture"....Aizen stop his targets last "picture image" or his own "pictured image"(from the moment he cast the spell) and modify it like on "photoshop" or using it like an afterimage that u sense be true.

We need more information about this new ability. For example the way Aizen stands (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/371/08/) makes it obvious that Aizen is making an illusion, does he have to move that way? What if somebody attacks him or his illusion?


1)he can let Gin and Tousen slaughter everyone until he attacks himself.(U'll keep seeing them on his sides while they r not)

2)He can move freely close to any enemy unnoticed,slice them with one hit,making the illusion shatter.

The big question is: Why didn't Aizen, Gin and Tousen try to kill all captains in SS, for example during a captain meeting? What deterred Aizen from doing so?


NOTICE:u never see him move from his place during the illusion...while actually he is really moving.
QUESTION:Why can't he move his image in different direction during the illusion?it would be really deceiving...

Because, for example, if he makes Gin look like himself and if Gin doesn't move, neither does fake Aizen.


NOTICE: when u attack his illusion it can appear that u hit him,as well as he take the attack heads on ecc...ecc....but he never moves....and actually even the surroundings never moves...as he stated he can make appear those surrounding differents but IMO it can't make appear NEW surroundings...

What does "surrounding never moves" mean? :blink

If he creates his illusion by using an immobile object or unmoving person, his illusion will not move too but for example, if he uses a fly to create an illusion of himself, you will see him moving.


I think the only way to counterattack Kyouka Suigetsu are:

_take a hit and counter hit(problem is that Aizen's slash and kidou are so powerful that one hit,if is not a KO,is huge damage for sure)....Guess only Ichigonator with Hyper-regeneration can do it...

_be ready to counterattack him from behind(Shunsui's move) the moment he attacks someone,cause in that moment the illusion shatters.
(U most be as experienced and cold blooded as Shunsui and SoiFon to lose the focus due to fear or surprise of your friend falling...lose a split second against Aizen and even attacking from behind won't do it..)

IMO there are other ways:

a) Use Mind's Eye (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/147/14/). I don't think Kubo mentioned the concept just for comic relief. There may be characters who have enhanced sixth sense and can counter Aizen's abilities to some extent.

b) If you take a hit, take it Kenpachi style (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/147/11/). Avoid life-threatening injuries and then counterattack.

c) Send your allies away and make an area attack to damage Aizen and his illusions at the same time.

d) Don't stay still and be an easy target, try to shoot Aizen from a distance. (Stark style) Once you make sure it's real Aizen, try stronger attacks.

e) Use one of Urahara's cool gadgets to make Aizen's ability useless.

kkck
August 29, 2009, 10:32 AM
You are forgetting other uses kyoka suigetsu has had though:

1.- Aizen created a fake body. There is debete on whether the body was an illusion on thing air or whether it was put on kyoka suigetsu.

2.- Aizen made gin look like himself to attack komamura.

3.- Aizen made himself look invisible to shinji's eyes. Of course, shinji apparently saw through this one.

4.- Finally the more recent one, make it seem as if nothing has happened for barragan.

5.- He made a random guy look like himself. The guy followed shinji around in SS and now one ever noticed.


Now, this is what I gather from this:

The sword requires the enemy to see it's release. This means the illusion is not something that is cast on things but rather it is something that is done over the one seeing the release. IMHO aizen can really make the target see and feel anything he wants in the way he wants it. It is not just something which he casts over foreing objects....

Lets consider the situation involving barragan and the guy who followed shinji around SS for a month. Kyoka suigetsu made everyone not just see stuff but also hear and feel them. This means kyoka suigetsu in itself is not limited to illusions. I am reasonably sure aizen could make you hear anything without actually having to make you see stuff.

Yans86
August 29, 2009, 10:44 AM
I'll answer everything!
the first point.....Koma says: Aizen was just standing next to Tousen.....PAST SENTENCE(it's just a recall of 3 seconds before)when the attack didn't start....the illusion shattered after/during Aizen started to cast the black coffin.....at that moment for the surprise it was to late for Koma to defend.....

2nd point: u can't see him while there's the illusion.U can attack the illusion but his power will give u the feeling that the illusion defended.
If they were able to attack him while the illusion is casted is another matter that no one ever done till now :-P That's why he is so mighty...

3rd point:why did he need to?is the same as asking why didn't he get promoted to RG with such a powerful ability and all...he is the stronger and still didnt get promoted...probably his own agenda wasn't to kill everyone....

4th point:attention here. The illusion/afterimage of himself doesn't move...the transfigured person/object does move even with his apparence....(pendulum arc) and possibly object transfigured to take his corpse appearance.

All your points to counter his attack are totally valid!!!!
but as u know Aizen is superfast and superstrong so to counter his powerful attack and his speed with just your mind eye would be reallly realy really difficult...
The Kenpachi style...is only Kenpachi's...and AIzen won't play around like Tousen...
The Stark style is possible only to Stark...but good counters on that way would be OldYama's fire,Hitsu's ice if he can make Icy rain,thousands or huge ceros spread all around the ambient(Stark)....unfortunately u should know his ability before,analyze it and counter it....problem is that u would not have the time...one black coffin,one good slash and u'll be over!

Urahara is the best and we know it!I would not be surprised if his performance with the gigai against yammi was prepared to fight Aizen!!!!
he is superstrong and probably he would not need such a technique in normal situation,nbut surely he did some preparation to counter Kyoukasuigetsu and I think that was it...:-D



@KKCK
3- That is obvious,he made it like he wasn't there,but u can easily guess that at the time he wasn't as strong as he is now.....

4-As u see Barragan still see scene at is was when they arrived.Both Gin and Tousen "afterimage/illusion" as well as the hollow's one didn't move from their spot...

kkck
August 29, 2009, 10:54 AM
I am not sure of what you are telling me lol. Are you countering my description of how aizen used his power?

Yans86
August 29, 2009, 10:59 AM
I'm sorry,my english is not perfect.

AIzen just transfigured himself like he wasn't there.but at the time he wasn't enough strong to trick someone like Shinji...

From the moment he casted KyoukaSuigetsu on Barragan,Barragan could only see the scene he was watching before.The "afterimage" of Gin,tousen and the hollows didn't move at all in front of him....

Gran Maestro
August 29, 2009, 11:37 AM
I'll answer everything!
the first point.....Koma says: Aizen was just standing next to Tousen.....PAST SENTENCE(it's just a recall of 3 seconds before)when the attack didn't start....the illusion shattered after/during Aizen started to cast the black coffin.....at that moment for the surprise it was to late for Koma to defend.....

2nd point: u can't see him while there's the illusion.U can attack the illusion but his power will give u the feeling that the illusion defended.
If they were able to attack him while the illusion is casted is another matter that no one ever done till now :-P That's why he is so mighty...

I'm confused. :blink If you can't see real Aizen while there's the illusion and since Komamura saw real Aizen before Aizen attacked him, doesn't it mean that the illusion shattered before Aizen attacked him?


3rd point:why did he need to?is the same as asking why didn't he get promoted to RG with such a powerful ability and all...he is the stronger and still didnt get promoted...probably his own agenda wasn't to kill everyone....

We don't know under what circumstances a captain gets promoted to RG, he probably wasn't patient enough to wait until his time comes.

Killing all captains (the captains who opposed him in FKT and HM) would make everything considerably easier for Aizen. He didn't attempt to kill these same captains while they're unaware of his abilities, there must be a reason for that, a reason which IMO is directly the answer of the question "How to defeat Aizen's shikai".


4th point:attention here. The illusion/afterimage of himself doesn't move...the transfigured person/object does move even with his apparence....(pendulum arc) and possibly object transfigured to take his corpse appearance.

I guess we agree on that. :)


All your points to counter his attack are totally valid!!!!
but as u know Aizen is superfast and superstrong so to counter his powerful attack and his speed with just your mind eye would be reallly realy really difficult...
The Kenpachi style...is only Kenpachi's...and AIzen won't play around like Tousen...
The Stark style is possible only to Stark...but good counters on that way would be OldYama's fire,Hitsu's ice if he can make Icy rain,thousands or huge ceros spread all around the ambient(Stark)....unfortunately u should know his ability before,analyze it and counter it....problem is that u would not have the time...one black coffin,one good slash and u'll be over!

I think Yamaji has the best chance to defeat Aizen, by using his fire for both defense and attack. The problem is he can unintentionally damage his own men, I don't think he'll attack Aizen unless he absolutely has to.


Urahara is the best and we know it!I would not be surprised if his performance with the gigai against yammi was prepared to fight Aizen!!!!
he is superstrong and probably he would not need such a technique in normal situation,nbut surely he did some preparation to counter Kyoukasuigetsu and I think that was it...:-D

Yep, I expect some surprise from Urahara.

Yans86
August 29, 2009, 12:47 PM
I'm sorry,my english is not perfect.

AIzen just transfigured himself like he wasn't there.but at the time he wasn't enough strong to trick someone like Shinji...

From the moment he casted KyoukaSuigetsu on Barragan,Barragan could only see the scene he was watching before.The "afterimage" of Gin,tousen and the hollows didn't move at all in front of him....
[hr]
The moment Aizen was under Koma's belly,he was already spiritually speaking,starting to use Black coffin...Koma was surprised to see him there,but he was so fast that Koma had just a brief moment to realize that the one he saw a split second before was an illusion :-P.In fact Koma's talks using THE PAST,and the panels are more like a recalling/flashback...
If Koma said: how can he be here while he is there,then we would have two Aizen image,but I don't think is the case...

About the RG,is argument that everyone discussed....not only about Aizen,but also about people like OldYama,Shunsui,Ukitake,Yoruichi and Unohana!!!!question is....was Mifune Taichou stronger then all of these guys??????
As we know the strongest shinigami in history is oldYama,and I guess that in the last 2000 years there were others promotion to RG...
How comes that Shunsui and Ukitake didn't get promoted too???

We totally agree on the counter,and yep...Old Yama would burn everyone to death :-P

And well,I guess that fighting all the captains at once,alongside all the shinigami in seireitei would have made the trick discovered before he could pwn everyone!
It's only a guess,but in this moment he is trying to weaken as much as he can the enemies army so the moment he will step in,they will be too tired to analyze or perform the types of counter we talked about.....
Maybe that's also the reason why OldYama sealed him in the fire cage.To get rid of the others back up before getting him....

Revolation
August 29, 2009, 01:31 PM
Wair, I have a question about what you said.
When Aizen had his corpse doll revealed to Unohana and Isane for the first time:

http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/000107372/08.jpg

Was kyoka suigetsu already released then. I mean both isane AND UNOHANA are seeing the corpse doll.

Now Isane then says he showed his shikai to the leutinants, so that explains why isane saw the corpse doll, but the reason unohana saw it is because why? After all she seems to be figuring it out. aizen seemed to had been promoted because of shinji's absense.

then aizen does this:
http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/000107372/09.jpg

What, he releases? Wasn't he already released? how could he show the corpse doll otherwise? Is this what gets unohana under control as agian she just realizes it, but then how did she even see the corpse doll before?
You would think that isane would be the person to see the doll and unohana would just see the sword.

Then the sword appears
http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/000107372/10.jpg

I'm utterly confused at this point. i mean the corpse doll. everyone who saw it after hinamori screamed clearly saw it, not to mention what happened afterwards. what exactly happened to the one they took down from the wall. everyone in squad 4 had to see that. does that mean aizen basically showed everyone his shikai before or is it another reason.

i need to get this cleared up.

Also you mentioned aizen can't change surroundings, but didn't he say he can change a swamp into a field of flowers in the eyes of the hypnotised. we need more info before making final conclusions but....we also have the fake aizen that followed shinji around.








Another thing is that notice that when aizen went to barragon, he still had his glasses on and the messy hair. he pulled off most of his stuff while he was still a soul society captian. this is once again proved in the much forgoton dordonii panel
http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/000108252/01.jpg
those were pre-houyoku arrancars aizeren already was in control of las noches before he defected

unusualangel
August 29, 2009, 01:59 PM
1 way: Tousen finally finds the true light, realizes and goes back to Gotei, released his bankai against Aizen, and cutting Aizen.

Since Tousen is blind, closing your eyes or avoiding the sight of Aizen or his sword (sharinggan?) would do or with the use of obstruction. (and that is, if your senses are as good as Tousen's) no one will ever fall under an optical illusion while their eyes are closed. (dream)

for the part where Aizen made a fake copy of himself, IMO that might be his bankai already where his illusion materializes. pray.

Yans86
August 30, 2009, 08:40 AM
@REVOLATION
I think that Kyouka Suigetsu was shattered the moment he stabbed Hinamori...
Second time he used it was to PWN Hitsugaya.....
And as u said all the VC were already under it.
About Unohana....well it can be really simple:

1)In the last 100 years she has healed people while Aizen was fighting someone under SS orders...(UNOHANA GETS AFFECTED)

2)Unohana gets affected during Aizen's promotion...(after pendulum arc).As we know one of the way to get promoted is having a test with captain commander and other 3 captains....

What happened back then? Kensei,Love,Shinji,Rose,Urahara and Yoruichi defected/were exiliated.So we had 6 Captains spot free.
VC doesn't get promoted to experience.....look at Old Yama Vc...he could have beomce captain in another division if he was strong....
SO,with this situation.....Aizen's test would be taken by:
Old Yama alongside Unohana+Kuchiki Ginrei(death)+ One between Shunsui and Ukitake....
Which means that in the worst case Ukitake is the opnly one still not affected...

But,easily speakings.....not one back then has seen Aizen's substitute in his real form
besides Aizen was missing/experimenting for one month.....so there's a probability that Unohana was already affected!!!
In the end Aizen was there for more then 100 years!!!it would be silly to think that Unohana never seen at least 1 times his kyoukaSuigetsu.....even if he made her believe it was another ability....


The corpse doll is easy explained....is the same thing that happened in the gaiden!he just casted an illusion/transfigurred another corpse or an object in his appearance....
In front of Unohana he did the same trick but with his sword :-P

And yep,Aizen can't change surroundings....he can make them appear different,but he can't change/create them!!!
Ex.
One tree=can be transfigurred in any object/image he wants,but he can't make appear 4 trees from that one...

Swamp=Field of flowers is the same thing,he just changed your perception,but u won't see the field of flowers and 10 meters above another field of flowers and 30 meters above another fields of flowers......

As he said he make misinterpret the object...he doesn't create the object....(Maybe that would be his bankai)...

And well,about Barragan timeline is easy explained too,even if is more of a conjencture based on some fact.
IMO Aizen didn't start the conquer of HM before 40/50 years.
As many readers have noticed,both Tousen and Gin has a captain Haori and Gin was appointed as captains the same period as Byakuya.(40/50 years ago from Rukia's flashback).....
Which means that if Aizen went to HM around that time,he had 40/50 years(till the obtaining of Hogyouku) to build Las Noches,develop his pre-espada...seek VL ecc...ecc.....ecc....

kkck
August 30, 2009, 10:51 AM
I disagree on the part about the illusion breaking when aizen attacks. Not only it does not make sense but it would also create a HUGE plot hole. Aizen was a captain for over 40 years before the manga events and it was implied he had already placed everyone in SS under the effects of his illusion over 100 years ago(that's how he made everyone see a random guy look like him for a month and got over 100 witnesses for the hollowification case). If the illusion breaks every time aizen uses his swords, he would have had to place everyone in SS under the effect of his illusion several times.

Arrogance
August 30, 2009, 02:12 PM
I disagree on the part about the illusion breaking when aizen attacks. Not only it does not make sense but it would also create a HUGE plot hole. Aizen was a captain for over 40 years before the manga events and it was implied he had already placed everyone in SS under the effects of his illusion over 100 years ago(that's how he made everyone see a random guy look like him for a month and got over 100 witnesses for the hollowification case). If the illusion breaks every time aizen uses his swords, he would have had to place everyone in SS under the effect of his illusion several times.
Yea I agree with this. Aizen is so strong and hyped that having that be his weekness just ruins his ability. It just doesn't make sense to me. You also need to think of it from the combat side. Even though Aizen doesn't normally utilize his shikai for combat, you need to remember the use to a zanpaktou is really combat. It wouldn't make sense for him to get someone under absolute hypnosis in a battle only for it to go away once he would attack, that would just defeat the whole purpose of it.

benelori
August 30, 2009, 05:17 PM
There goes again the question..we all know that bankai increases the power of shikai by 5-10 times...then just what can be stronger than Aizen's shikai, also called "The Matrix"? :D Your thoughts on this matter are welcomed.

I don't think aizen has bankai.I said it before his captain exam was his only chance to catch even yama in his illusion. We know he caught shunsui 100 years ago,also other captains as well. So he has no bankai,which allowed him to concentrate improving other skills, like the 4 basic shinigami abilities he mentioned

Arrogance
August 31, 2009, 12:19 AM
I don't think aizen has bankai.I said it before his captain exam was his only chance to catch even yama in his illusion. We know he caught shunsui 100 years ago,also other captains as well. So he has no bankai,which allowed him to concentrate improving other skills, like the 4 basic shinigami abilities he mentioned
I dunno, see like you said though he has claimed to have maxed out his Shinigami abilities, so I would think that that means he has bankai too. As well he wanted the Hogyoku in order for himself to take his abilities to a new level since he claims to have perfected all the areas of shinigami combat. He wants to become a hybrid in order to reach that next step. Thing is if he didn't have a bankai then wouldnt that mean that that would be the next and most reasonable step to gaining new powers? Why go all out to become a hybrid if you didn't have bankai yet. It just doesn't add up for me to see his motives be what they if he hasn't reach bankai yet with his zanpaktou.

Yans86
August 31, 2009, 08:01 AM
@KKCK

I'll give u really simple answer for that,of course I couldn't overlook such a problem :-P

Pendulum arc:
While that guy assumed his appearance,where was Aizen?
In rukongai experimenting hollowification with Tousen and Gin which were both able to take on any kind of threats below captain level at ease.
As we have seen,only strong shinigami became "weak hollow"(the one defeated by Kensei).
Normal people disappeared.
So Aizen wouldn't need to fight.And anyway,I think he came back to his division during the night cause having Gin and Tousen disappear for a whole month too would be strange.....if he didn't do the same trick on others two guy.
And even doing that wouldn't change much what I say :-P

SS arc:
Aizen made another corps/object assume his appearance.
Where was he during that time??
Hiding in chambers 46,studying information on Hogyouku and stuff like that!Aka he didn't need to fight/use his sword.
As Unohana said:it was the best place to hide,and from the looks of it,while he faked that chambers 46 giving orthers,not even OldYama knew that Aizen was there.(Not saying that Gin was around to control the situation :-P)
Unohana(one of the best captains) went on the place cause he noticed something odd about the corpse...(this after days of studying).

Now....the illusion IMO can shatter for a slight moment or for few seconds before it can be casted again.But we all know that Aizen doesn't play like Tousen,and he will always go(effectively),with a one-hit-ko!THAT's FACT :-P
Even if it is a brief moment,u would be so heavily injured that those 2 seconds would not be enough to defend against anothe of his attacks,cause we all know how powerful he is in all shinigami arts!!!

@ARROGANCE
From the combat aspect in part I just answered.(and this concern more the 1 vs 1)
But i want give u something more....
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/171/11/
Beside the "water flowing speech...." is interesting the part where Isane say this to us:"....confuse the enemy to fight among themselves"...
That's a power that Aizen shikai can perform easily!he won't need to lift a finger,using his words,since till now no one was able to break his illusion.
So fighting multiple opponents,giving them the image that u see your friend as an enemy...would be enough to do the job,and the moment he shatter kyoukasuigetsu u would be so heavily injured that it become a joke for him to finish the job!!!

Let's imagine this in the actual fight....vizards and shinigami attacking each other,thinking they r Aizen and co while those guys are covered(invisible) from the illusion....what would happen???
Vizards and shinigami would heavily injured among themselves,and Gin/Tousen/Halibel/Stark/WW(invisible) would have easy time to back/stab-cero them...while Aizen just smirk in the corner :-P

In the end,having the illusion shatter for brief moment during the fights won't be a problem if u can't see throught it by yourself!u owuld be dead before realizing and questioning yourself...WTF is going on?!
And saying "have the illusion shatter wouldn't fit the purpose of the combat" doesn't fit really with these answers...in the end SOiFon has a bankai that can use once every 3 days normally :-P.

@R4ZR
My little idea about his bankai would be....http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/177/10/ http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/177/11/ http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/177/15/.
If his shikai can control people senses.....
His bankai can control/nullify/blank people mind,making them act like puppets.
Obviously the effectiveness should go according to his opponent power!!!

benelori
August 31, 2009, 11:23 AM
I dunno, see like you said though he has claimed to have maxed out his Shinigami abilities, so I would think that that means he has bankai too. As well he wanted the Hogyoku in order for himself to take his abilities to a new level since he claims to have perfected all the areas of shinigami combat. He wants to become a hybrid in order to reach that next step. Thing is if he didn't have a bankai then wouldnt that mean that that would be the next and most reasonable step to gaining new powers? Why go all out to become a hybrid if you didn't have bankai yet. It just doesn't add up for me to see his motives be what they if he hasn't reach bankai yet with his zanpaktou.

Well to achieve bankai U need to suppress to materialized form of UR zanpaktou, which means IMO defeating it in a challenge:combat, quiz anything...So defeating a zanpaktou who controls UR senses i think it's impossible even for aizen himself, so maybe he needs to be a hybrid in order to obtain bankai...somehow... i really don't know what else to say.
If he has bankai then there will be a limit to it, as there is for his hikai as well, just nobody knows

kkck
August 31, 2009, 01:31 PM
@KKCK

I'll give u really simple answer for that,of course I couldn't overlook such a problem :-P

Pendulum arc:
While that guy assumed his appearance,where was Aizen?
In rukongai experimenting hollowification with Tousen and Gin which were both able to take on any kind of threats below captain level at ease.
As we have seen,only strong shinigami became "weak hollow"(the one defeated by Kensei).
Normal people disappeared.
So Aizen wouldn't need to fight.And anyway,I think he came back to his division during the night cause having Gin and Tousen disappear for a whole month too would be strange.....if he didn't do the same trick on others two guy.
And even doing that wouldn't change much what I say :-P

SS arc:
Aizen made another corps/object assume his appearance.
Where was he during that time??
Hiding in chambers 46,studying information on Hogyouku and stuff like that!Aka he didn't need to fight/use his sword.
As Unohana said:it was the best place to hide,and from the looks of it,while he faked that chambers 46 giving orthers,not even OldYama knew that Aizen was there.(Not saying that Gin was around to control the situation :-P)
Unohana(one of the best captains) went on the place cause he noticed something odd about the corpse...(this after days of studying).

Now....the illusion IMO can shatter for a slight moment or for few seconds before it can be casted again.But we all know that Aizen doesn't play like Tousen,and he will always go(effectively),with a one-hit-ko!THAT's FACT :-P
Even if it is a brief moment,u would be so heavily injured that those 2 seconds would not be enough to defend against anothe of his attacks,cause we all know how powerful he is in all shinigami arts!!!

You did not answer to the whole issue though. You merely attempted to explain 3 moments in the storyline but neglected the rest of the 100 years since the story started.

The illusion made by aizen is placed the moment someone sees the release of kyoka suigetsu and the illusion breaks after aizen yet again releases his zampakuto. Aizen was for god knows how long a VC and then for at the very least 40 years a captain. As a VC and captain, aizen has to undertake a number of dangerous missions. If aizen has been on the battlefront for over 110 years, I would find it extremely weird that he never used his zampakuto. If aizen was a VC and a captain, he is bound to use his sword, and according to your theory he would have had to place EVERYONE(without exception or margin of error) under the effects of his sword who knows how many times. I know we are talking about aizen but if he used his sword 1 every ten years, we are talking about the guy putting everyone in SS under his illusion over 11 times by now.

The way I see it, the zampakuto works by affecting the target, not by putting an illusion over stuff. Once aizen has someone with his influence, he can make him see, feel, hear, smell and taste whatever he likes. The simplest explanation and covers every possible plothole.

Yans86
September 01, 2009, 10:30 AM
I don't really see the reasoning of your last answer...

It's fact that after the first time u see KyoukaSuigetsu,every time Aizen release his shikai,every person that has seen it at least once,goes under the illusion!!!

If u read the second part of my post,u will notice that I explained how it would work in battle...

And as one of the best guys around here,u should simply imagine that everytimes Aizen went to battle.....even in time of crisis,both the shinigami part as well as the enemies part would be under his illusion!!!
And what did he say to the VC???" make the enemies fight among themselves..."
Why give them such an information knowning that all their captains knows something different???
This would not make sense at all,he probably said the same thing to the others too(Captain and low level shinigami)....and his shikai can easily perform such a trick ie he can make a person appear like another one...

QUESTION...what kind of crisis can u see?
Beside the FACT that from the beginning Gin was on his side....beside IMO 99% the fact that I see him becoming captain after the vizards demise....what threat could he have to fight using KS full throttle for enough time to make the other shinigamies understand the trick?Besides the fact that the shinigami would see their enemies confused(after what Aizen said about his shikai)...how much do u think is going to take them to beat any kind of threat???

The biggest threat they can have in SS if fight some adjucha....one VL randomly coming there to get slaughtered?!Not saying that in the last 40/50 years he had controls over hollows in HM...

Do u think he would need KS to beat an adjucha??

Last thing....notice that Matsumoto(VC)....din't know about Kira(VC) shikai....Omaeda never seen Soifon bankai.....so as u see even higher-ups are quite secretive on their powers...and who's more secretive and deceiving then Aizen???

Gran Maestro
September 01, 2009, 02:29 PM
IMO Aizen's illusion doesn't break once he attacks someone. He was about to attack Shinji (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.1/020/) in TBTP while his fake was walking around (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.09/02/) in Seireitei. It would have been an awkward moment if Aizen's fake had suddenly turned into somebody else while other people were around.

kkck
September 01, 2009, 04:52 PM
I don't really see the reasoning of your last answer...

It's fact that after the first time u see KyoukaSuigetsu,every time Aizen release his shikai,every person that has seen it at least once,goes under the illusion!!!

If u read the second part of my post,u will notice that I explained how it would work in battle...

And as one of the best guys around here,u should simply imagine that everytimes Aizen went to battle.....even in time of crisis,both the shinigami part as well as the enemies part would be under his illusion!!!
And what did he say to the VC???" make the enemies fight among themselves..."
Why give them such an information knowning that all their captains knows something different???
This would not make sense at all,he probably said the same thing to the others too(Captain and low level shinigami)....and his shikai can easily perform such a trick ie he can make a person appear like another one...

QUESTION...what kind of crisis can u see?
Beside the FACT that from the beginning Gin was on his side....beside IMO 99% the fact that I see him becoming captain after the vizards demise....what threat could he have to fight using KS full throttle for enough time to make the other shinigamies understand the trick?Besides the fact that the shinigami would see their enemies confused(after what Aizen said about his shikai)...how much do u think is going to take them to beat any kind of threat???

The biggest threat they can have in SS if fight some adjucha....one VL randomly coming there to get slaughtered?!Not saying that in the last 40/50 years he had controls over hollows in HM...

Do u think he would need KS to beat an adjucha??

Last thing....notice that Matsumoto(VC)....din't know about Kira(VC) shikai....Omaeda never seen Soifon bankai.....so as u see even higher-ups are quite secretive on their powers...and who's more secretive and deceiving then Aizen???

I kinda missed the point of your post, not sure of what you mean.... I will try to answer as best i can though.

Aizen told isane kotetsu(and to everyone else) that kyoka suigetsu was a water type zampakuto which created illusions by distorting the light around.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/171/11/
As you can see, that was an outright lie, regardless of the name, the sword by no means distorts light nor it is of the water type. Aizen could have used his sword in a way in which it would appear he was causing a illusion of that kind which would in turn allow him to use his zampakuto as he pleases. Of course that would imply aizen's illusion does not break when he attacks, quite the contrary, he would make everyone see something slightly different from what is really going on.

Now, why would you assume aizen is the only threat the gotei 13 had ever had? Just because we have yet to hear of another large scale threat does not mean there has yet to be one. Quite frankly, we do not know all of the functions the shinigami have, we only know the generic "protect the humans from hollows" and a more specifically "protecting the king". Also, just consider the number of captain death which have been implied over the years(some of them could be promoted to the royal guard or retired altogether). A relatively large amounts of captains have been said to die. Kyoraku even mentioned he, ukitake, unohana and yama were the only ones remaining from the guard 200 years ago from now. I doubt aizen is responsible for every death of every captain over the last 200 years lol.

Yans86
September 02, 2009, 08:37 AM
About the speech with Isane Kotetsu,the main topic wasn't the water-based zanpakotou ecc.....ecc.....
The most important point is the ".....make the enemies fight against each others......" which is a power that Kyouka SUigetsu can display beside all that waterblabblering.....
And as I said in the post,I never said that having the illusion shatterring matter is something DEFINITIVE,just TEMPORARY,and that's the moment where I see a possibility of a counter attack against Aizen shikai.....deceive-hit-deceive-hit-deceive-hit....


In a situation like inDaPendulum or in FakingHIs Death,that would be dangerous(that's why he always was in no needing to fight situation)....but in a fight would become really difficult to overcome or notice!
If he fights alongs the shinigami against army of hollows/quincy/everything u want.....the enemies would be confused(misinterpreting each others),the friends would just see them confused or fightin each other....
Even the brief moment where Aizen slash someone,the enemis would be confused trying to figure out what the Fuck happened...and in that moment they would be slaughtered by the shinigami before anyone notice what really happened......

Now,well,OldYama,Kyouraku,Ukitake and Unohana were from the original guard of 2000years before,not 200hundreds....

And well,I don't understand what r u thinking.....
As we know,no one ever knew(from his holder) KyoukaSuigetsu real power,not saying discover his power or even possibly go close to beat it....
Aizen deceived SS for more then 100years,I provided u with FACT that even between VCaptains(kira-Matsu),and even between a VC/seated officers and their own Captains there's not necessarily a knowledge of each other sword(SoiFon-Omaeda,Ikkaku/Yumi-Kenpachi) and u r surprised that Aizen(THE MASTER OF ILLUSION) didn't let anyone discover his real sword power or his weakness??!!!!come on man.....

kkck
September 02, 2009, 12:53 PM
Where did you get 2000 years lol? The academy was founded by yama 2000 years ago and ukitake and kyoraku were the first graduates from the academy to become captains. That means those two could have become captains at any time between the founding of the academy and 100 years prior to the gaiden. Now kyoraku and ukitake mentioned in the gainden they along wiht unohana and yamamoto were the only remaining members of the guard from 100 years ago. Nothing about that tells us exactly for how long anyone has been a captain, it only tells us kyoraku, ukitake and unohana have been around for over 200 years.

Where did I say I was surprised no one discovered aizens true power? Hell, I even gave an explanation for such a thing to be plausible. Quite frankly, I have no idea of what you are trying to say nor how it relates to what I have posted.

Yans86
September 02, 2009, 01:42 PM
And it is called....."Shinigami accademy".....where the shinigamies were instructed to become ones!
My english is not perfect,but saying that they could have graduated between those 2000years and 200 years ago,as logical as it can be,is totally silly to think that between all the shinigami that graduated from there,the first two to became captain took more then100/200 years from its foundation!!!!

Beside that,I really don't understand what did u want to take out making all this fuss on this point!!since all my speech was basically on Aizen's shikai,my theory,and how that works according to the story and viceversa!
I also proved FACT to u that doesn't exist a "REAL KNOWLEDGE" about the others shinigami zanpakotou,and only few let the others show their power)and just few trusted people.
And u kept on saying to me,that such a weakness(brief shatter moment of the llusion),would easily be discovered and beaten while we r talking about the guy that fooled the SS for more then 100 years!!!!

As we we both said,KyoukaSuigetsu affect the target,but the target are both shinigami and enemies in all their missions!that's why he wouldn't be discovered.....and again,Aizen would give to enemies false image to make them fight between themselves,.Even if he fought alongside other shinigamies,those ones would only see the enemies fight among themselves.The brief moment they ilusion would shatter,the enemies would be so confused and injured that it would take 1 split second to whipe them out.

I don't know where do u want to arrive,maybe we made some little confusion on the last post.I would be glad if u can repost me even in private your doubt,to keep having our exchanging :-D!!!

kkck
September 02, 2009, 03:17 PM
I think I know where exactly things went array in out discussion lol. It's about this part:


I also proved FACT to u that doesn't exist a "REAL KNOWLEDGE" about the others shinigami zanpakotou,and only few let the others show their power)and just few trusted people.
And u kept on saying to me,that such a weakness(brief shatter moment of the llusion),would easily be discovered and beaten while we r talking about the guy that fooled the SS for more then 100 years!!!!
You misunderstood what I meant when I wrote about that. My point on the weakness on aizen's power was not that other captains would find out the weakness to his power, you completely missed that. My point was that the weakness you suggested would create a number of plot holes and in it could have repercussions on aizen. What I am going to say next has absolutely nothing to do with whether other shinigami do or do not know about the power of kyoka suigetsu BTW.

Aizen has been a VC and captain for god knows how long. During that time, perhaps even before that, he spent a given amount of time making sure everyone in SS sees the release of his sword therefore putting them under it's influence. This is what allowed aizen to fool everyone when the vizard gaiden occured and when he faked his death. My first point was that if everytime aizen used his sword the illusion broke, he would have to put everyone in SS under his illusion again. IMHO there are other dangerous missions shinigami's of all levels must undertake so even for aizen not being able to use his zampakuto is something of a limitation.

Now take a look at this:
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.1/020/
In this scene aizen was about to kill the vizards with his own sword. At the same time there was a lookalike parading around SS in order to make everyone think aizen never left sereitei. Now if using kyoka suigetsu to attack would cause the illusion to disappear, even for only a moment, would it not have been counterproductive to do it while the lookalike was still in Sereitei? If the illusion was dispelled when attacking, someone could have noticed that "aizen" was not really aizen or at least that there was something unusual about him in that moment. That is what I tried to say before, and it has nothing to do with the knowledge people have on aizen's zampakuto.

Broody
September 02, 2009, 06:28 PM
Now take a look at this:
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.1/020/
In this scene aizen was about to kill the vizards with his own sword. At the same time there was a lookalike parading around SS in order to make everyone think aizen never left sereitei. Now if using kyoka suigetsu to attack would cause the illusion to disappear, even for only a moment, would it not have been counterproductive to do it while the lookalike was still in Sereitei? If the illusion was dispelled when attacking, someone could have noticed that "aizen" was not really aizen or at least that there was something unusual about him in that moment. That is what I tried to say before, and it has nothing to do with the knowledge people have on aizen's zampakuto.

I think Yans86 is trying to say that the illusion shatters only for the target who gets hit by Aizen. I do see a point to his theory and I think it's a very probable one.

P.S: - This is my first post here, I have been following the threads for quite some time now but was too lazy to actually create an account. Here's to having a great time with you guys.

benelori
September 02, 2009, 06:36 PM
I think Yans86 is trying to say that the illusion shatters only for the target who gets hit by Aizen. I do see a point to his theory and I think it's a very probable one.

P.S: - This is my first post here, I have been following the threads for quite some time now but was too lazy to actually create an account. Here's to having a great time with you guys.

U can't take it not to join after a while right? welcome... as we've seen people attacked by him noticed the illusion( hitsu, komamura) so it could be. But why attack if he can use others to attack(see aizen vs barragan). Of course against weak people he can handle things, but against the entire gotei, he might use this tactic.I think is foulproof, so the question: why creating espada?
Maybe just testing hougyoku to see how can he transorm himself into a hybrid like ichigo, or the espada's deaths will make up for the population of karakura, thus he can create the ouken?

Broody
September 02, 2009, 06:47 PM
U can't take it not to join after a while right? welcome... as we've seen people attacked by him noticed the illusion( hitsu, komamura) so it could be. But why attack if he can use others to attack(see aizen vs barragan). Of course against weak people he can handle things, but against the entire gotei, he might use this tactic.I think is foulproof, so the question: why creating espada?


If you are just about as obsessed with the idea of being a king as Aizen, you probably won't be content with having just two people and an endless number of mindless hollows roaming around the place.

Thanks a bunch, benelori, I appreciate this warm reception. Couldn't have you guys hogging all the fun, could I ?

DARK
September 02, 2009, 06:49 PM
Well to achieve bankai U need to suppress to materialized form of UR zanpaktou, which means IMO defeating it in a challenge:combat, quiz anything...So defeating a zanpaktou who controls UR senses i think it's impossible even for aizen himself, so maybe he needs to be a hybrid in order to obtain bankai...somehow... i really don't know what else to say.
If he has bankai then there will be a limit to it, as there is for his hikai as well, just nobody knows

Aizen just probably took it down by using his intelligence, cunning, and MASSIVE spirit power. Assuming that Grimmjow was just taken down by his reiatsu alone (and he wasn't even serious), no telling how Aizen can be if he actually he is serious. I believe Aizen has a Bankai, but his Shikai (aside from the weakness of having to directly look at it) is as potent as a Bankai.

benelori
September 05, 2009, 04:05 PM
If you are just about as obsessed with the idea of being a king as Aizen, you probably won't be content with having just two people and an endless number of mindless hollows roaming around the place.

Thanks a bunch, benelori, I appreciate this warm reception. Couldn't have you guys hogging all the fun, could I ?

I think aizen is doing most things becuz he is bored...so having espada might be an experiment for him...who knows he's just like madara, powerful and a manipulative bastard. A liked a while how aizen had done things, but this eternal hiding, manipulation and overconfidence is pissing me off. I said it on another thread, i miss the courage,direct approach and the sense of humor in both mangas. So i've had enough with aizen, too

Genezis
September 05, 2009, 04:43 PM
I believe Aizen's bankai is that he is able to glimpse into the future because he seems to know everything before it happens

After_Image
September 07, 2009, 02:13 AM
What if he can make clones of himself with his bankai!!! That would be a slaughter of the gotei 13 IMO if that were true. Hehehe that probably would be overkill.

Arctigor
September 07, 2009, 06:56 AM
I think Aizen's bankai is like itachi's tsukuyomi. It traps u in an other dimension where he can kill however he wants.

drakend
October 02, 2009, 03:04 PM
Until not long ago I thought Aizen's move was invincible, with no flaws. Well I think I may have found one, which is its very strong point: it affects all of the five senses of someone. Normally nobody has any chance against it, but if there is a shikai (or a bankai) which can locate people by itself, without relying on any of the five senses then Kyouka Suigetsu would become useless.
Such an hypotetical shinigami with this kind of power could locate Aizen evreywhere no matter what he does, Kyouka Suigetsu included.
Let's discuss about this!

kkck
October 02, 2009, 03:14 PM
Couldn't kyoka suigetsu make the shinigami in question misinterpret what his zampakuto is saying though? At least I think it is well within aizen's possibilities to do that.

Such a sword would work only as long as aizen does not figure it's power. The other main issue here is that the user never really breaks out of the illusion meaning that even if for a while the user will not be fooled regarding aizen's location, aizen could still make the user see things that are not there such as a wall, house and whatnot. Being capable of knowing where aizen is without being able to see the fighting ground properly would definitely be a problem. Also, just knowing where aizen is would probably not be enough. You can know where aizen is but without seeing him properly you will not be fighting him for long.

The way I see it, to defeat kyoka suigetsu you need to actually somehow break out of the illusion, not just know where aizen is. In that sense, what you need would be a zampakuto that can somehow either break out of illusions or see the truth of any situation.......

Kuranzyan
October 02, 2009, 03:21 PM
Actually, beating the crankjack out of Aizen in Shikai doesn't even require the victims to rely on their senses, but just swing their swords around like madmen. You're bound to hit him just once, but you'll look extremely stupid for the effort.

Unless of course, you're Kenpachi. He WRITES the book of rules.

kkck
October 02, 2009, 03:28 PM
I doubt such a reckless move would work against aizen lol. That plan would work only under two assumptions:

1.- You have enough raw power to hurt aizen even when recklessly swinging your sword.'

2.- Aizen for some reason comes close AND lowers his guard to a random swing of your sword.

The way I see it, this is not gonna work. Aizen could just go black coffin on you..... and be done with it. The way I see it, kyoka suigetsu will ultimately be defeated by someone actually randomly releasing himself from the illusion through sheer will power or whatnot lol....

Josear XIII
October 02, 2009, 04:44 PM
i think Drakend theory is very possible since shikai and bankai are capable of doing things by their own and not by the command of their master in case of the newest shikai around (Shunsui) he does not pick the game his sword does, so if it were and attack like a guided missile that follows heat or certain reiatsu or even the reiatsu the sword want to hurt, it is by much very possible, since aizen would be using the effect on the shinigami, and we dont know if the Kyoka Suigetsu work on the sword spirit

patedecarne
October 02, 2009, 06:45 PM
Hum, this could be possible, but given the few remaining Bankais, it's most likely they'll need to rely on another method.

And if there's something that can't be fooled by KS, that is the sixth sense. The sixth sense is invincible against these things, and depending of Aizen's true opponent(I'm assuming he'll be Ichigo) the hollow instincts plus the sixth sense will render Kyouka Suigetsu as useless.

kkck
October 02, 2009, 06:51 PM
I think kyoka suigetsu will finally be defeated once ichigo uses his determination and breaks out of the illusion. Basically ichigo will do to aizen what he did to kempachi and renji. Once that happens, the real fight against aizen will begin(since there technically is no fight if aizen uses the illusions on you)

drakend
October 03, 2009, 12:29 AM
Couldn't kyoka suigetsu make the shinigami in question misinterpret what his zampakuto is saying though? At least I think it is well within aizen's possibilities to do that.
Well that's speculation. I mean we know as a fact that kyouka suigetsu affects the five sense: we don't know if it has any effect on shikai or bankai. It hasn't even been hinted that Aizen's shikai has such an effect: I think we have no reason to assume kyouka suigetsu interferes with a shinigami and his sword. As far as we know it could be its very limit evreyone is looking for. A shikai being able to locate things would be quite a problem for Aizen: this doesn't change the fact the user must be very strong in order to take down him. It useless if you locate him and then you get owned anyway... :D


I doubt such a reckless move would work against aizen lol. That plan would work only under two assumptions:

Spamming around someone's bankai, like getsuga tensho, could be used as a way to locate Aizen, then moving near him using shunpo (or sonido...) and doing a white cero from point blank. Anyway I don't think Aizen would just stand there doing nothing, the guy has got insane speed...




And if there's something that can't be fooled by KS, that is the sixth sense. The sixth sense is invincible against these things, and depending of Aizen's true opponent(I'm assuming he'll be Ichigo) the hollow instincts plus the sixth sense will render Kyouka Suigetsu as useless.
We had no hint of the existence of the sixth sense in Bleach, especially as a way to defy kyouka suigetsu.
Regarding the will power... I think the enemies Aizen owned had plenty of will power in killing him, yet they got tricked by Aizen's illusion and defeated.

kkck
October 03, 2009, 02:48 AM
Well that's speculation. I mean we know as a fact that kyouka suigetsu affects the five sense: we don't know if it has any effect on shikai or bankai. It hasn't even been hinted that Aizen's shikai has such an effect: I think we have no reason to assume kyouka suigetsu interferes with a shinigami and his sword. As far as we know it could be its very limit evreyone is looking for. A shikai being able to locate things would be quite a problem for Aizen: this doesn't change the fact the user must be very strong in order to take down him. It useless if you locate him and then you get owned anyway...

I didn't say aizen has to affect the zampakuto though. I said aizen has to make the shinigami in question misunderstand the information given by his zampakuto. In that sense, aizen does not have to do anything to the zampakuto of the enemy.

As for the bolded part; somehow countering the illusion does not mean you are a step closer to defeating aizen. It merely means aizen might have to try fighting seriously which by all means is not a good thing. Without defeating the illusion any fight is easy for aizen. In a way just getting past the illusion means there is a fight(and not just aizen cutting enemies who are practically incapable of defending).

drakend
October 03, 2009, 03:50 AM
I didn't say aizen has to affect the zampakuto though. I said aizen has to make the shinigami in question misunderstand the information given by his zampakuto. In that sense, aizen does not have to do anything to the zampakuto of the enemy.
Well the link between a shinigami and his own zanpaktou is at the soul level, to the point that a zanpaktou is the manifestation of a shinigami's soul power. I don't think this kind of link relies on the standard five human senses, so kyouka suigetsu shouldn't have any influence on it.



As for the bolded part; somehow countering the illusion does not mean you are a step closer to defeating aizen. It merely means aizen might have to try fighting seriously which by all means is not a good thing. Without defeating the illusion any fight is easy for aizen. In a way just getting past the illusion means there is a fight(and not just aizen cutting enemies who are practically incapable of defending).
Well Aizen is insanely strong, that's a given, but I think it's better having one chance over a million than no chance at all, don't you agree?

deanmilanov
October 03, 2009, 04:11 AM
Aizen said it himself that Unohana was able to feel something was slightly off with the body he left behind, so he hypnosis is not all that perfect. A way to defeat Aizen is to seal hiz zanpakto in a way similar to how #8 espada sealed renji's bankai, be it using bakudo, or with some technical invention. Other possibility is someone with multiple personalitites, who can switch easily, like Ichigo and Hichigo, i.e. Ichigo is fighting, gets hypnotized, Hichigo goes out, Aizen's confused, seals his sword to redo the release, meanwhile they switch again... This could not be possible though, since people who can use Bankai can release their swords without calling their names, thus making hard for ichigo to time the switch. Surely Kubo will come up with a good way, though.

drakend
October 03, 2009, 04:43 AM
Aizen said it himself that Unohana was able to feel something was slightly off with the body he left behind, so he hypnosis is not all that perfect. A way to defeat Aizen is to seal hiz zanpakto in a way similar to how #8 espada sealed renji's bankai, be it using bakudo, or with some technical invention.

Something which worked for Renji won't work for Aizen, most likely... in Bleach difference in reiatsu play a huge role, to the point that Inoue's powers get nullified or greatly reduced by Ulquiorra's reiatsu, just to make an example.



Other possibility is someone with multiple personalitites, who can switch easily, like Ichigo and Hichigo, i.e. Ichigo is fighting, gets hypnotized, Hichigo goes out, Aizen's confused, seals his sword to redo the release, meanwhile they switch again... This could not be possible though, since people who can use Bankai can release their swords without calling their names, thus making hard for ichigo to time the switch. Surely Kubo will come up with a good way, though.
Aizenìs hyposis work on both shinigami and hollow alike, as Harribel's demise shows. Not to mention and Ichigo and Shirosaki are the same, so if one is hypnotized the other should be, unless there is some unknown hollow skill which dispells the hypnosis.

Gran Maestro
October 03, 2009, 04:47 AM
We had no hint of the existence of the sixth sense in Bleach, especially as a way to defy kyouka suigetsu.

Actually we have a hint, the mind's eye (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/147/14/) thing.

Aizen's powers are similar to Mandrake the Magician (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandrake_the_Magician), and a well-known way to bypass Mandrake's hypnotic technique was to look at him by means of a video camera. I won't be surprised if Urahara comes with a pair of glasses (like the ones in Mission Impossible) that function as a video camera.

poobert
October 03, 2009, 05:08 AM
How about the peskis thing that Uliquora used to detect ichigo. You could detect roughly were Aizen is if he came close and then could swing at him.

deanmilanov
October 03, 2009, 05:11 AM
@ drakend
About the reiatsu: Orihime did it in the end, about a minute after she complained, and I think Kubo had her say that just to justify how strong Ulq was. Who knows...
About Ichigo & Hichigo, I guess I couldn't make myself clear. I'm not saying Hichigo can't be hypnotized, I'm saying that his mind is not connected to Ichigo's. They share experience (both learned bankai at the same time), but don't suffer same consequences from battle, meaning when Ichigo passed out vs Buyakuya or vs Hiory, Hichigo came out. So if Ichigo can learn to switch at will with Hichigo (who is not affected by the illusion) about who's in control of the body, he stands a chance. Also Hichigo seem to be better/stronger/faster/less sensitive to pain, so he'll be a better opponent for Aizen.

drakend
October 03, 2009, 05:59 AM
Actually we have a hint, the mind's eye (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/147/14/) thing.

Ehi dude you have quite the impressive memory... you remembered a very specific phrase from a chapter of quite some years ago! :D
Anyway this mind's eye thing will be crucial in the future for defeating Aizen's illusions. Which doesn't mean automatic victory, but the beginning of the actual battle.


@ drakend
So if Ichigo can learn to switch at will with Hichigo (who is not affected by the illusion) about who's in control of the body, he stands a chance. Also Hichigo seem to be better/stronger/faster/less sensitive to pain, so he'll be a better opponent for Aizen.
Mmm I think the same more or less... but I think that Ichigo, rather than switching, should "absorb" Shirosaki somehow, becoming more like him. That could allow Ichigo to fully harness Shirosaki's powers.

Josear XIII
October 03, 2009, 08:15 AM
are we discussing about ways to defeat kyoka suigetsu or who in bleach could beat him i got lost because i really though it was just how to defeat Kyoka suigetsu and not assumptions that leads to nowhere, like looking out for the remaining bankai ans so on...

drakend
October 03, 2009, 09:25 AM
are we discussing about ways to defeat kyoka suigetsu or who in bleach could beat him i got lost because i really though it was just how to defeat Kyoka suigetsu and not assumptions that leads to nowhere, like looking out for the remaining bankai ans so on...
We're talking about how to defeat Kyoka Suigetsu. Which doesn't mean how to defeat Aizen, which is an entirely different issue imho. Defeating Aizen's shikai only means to start a real fight with him, who is on par with Yamamoto, at least.

Josear XIII
October 03, 2009, 10:13 AM
AHHH ok well i already gave my idea out, i just got confused because i was just saw a lot of, CIhigo will breack it yama will blah blah blah, Shunsui will bla bla bla.

Mifune_Taichou
October 03, 2009, 10:27 AM
Couldn't kyoka suigetsu make the shinigami in question misinterpret what his zampakuto is saying though? At least I think it is well within aizen's possibilities to do that.

Such a sword would work only as long as aizen does not figure it's power. The other main issue here is that the user never really breaks out of the illusion meaning that even if for a while the user will not be fooled regarding aizen's location, aizen could still make the user see things that are not there such as a wall, house and whatnot. Being capable of knowing where aizen is without being able to see the fighting ground properly would definitely be a problem. Also, just knowing where aizen is would probably not be enough. You can know where aizen is but without seeing him properly you will not be fighting him for long.

The way I see it, to defeat kyoka suigetsu you need to actually somehow break out of the illusion, not just know where aizen is. In that sense, what you need would be a zampakuto that can somehow either break out of illusions or see the truth of any situation.......

I think one of the only ways to possibly break free of Kyokasuigetsu is something that happened in Soul Eater (filler but still). In SE there was a character called the Kishin who basically had Kyokasuigetsu powers as well as others. He made this elaborate illusion around the protagonists but the best out of the three (imo) who could fire out his soul's wavelenght(reiatsu) thorugh his arm actually released so much of it he completely destroyed the illusion. This would probably be the only way to break free. Which is probably how Ichigo will do it

drakend
October 03, 2009, 10:31 AM
This would probably be the only way to break free. Which is probably how Ichigo will do it
Well the idea of the "localizing shikai" isn't a bad one imho, anyway your one won't ever be used in Bleach. Why? Because evreyone would say Kubo made a copypasta and is unoriginal... :D

benelori
October 03, 2009, 02:53 PM
Good stuff...I think aizen's shikai has flaws though...unohana spotted a problem with the body, even komamura spotted aizen dissapearing but he didn't react quick enough and aizen trapped him in that black box...aizen said to shinji he would've spotted the fake aizen lurking behind him if shinji would've acted as a normal captain...and aizen also said that even if the illusion is spotted, it's too late becuz he got U...what if it's not to late... so considering that flaws can be found without shikai, then a tracing zanpaktou or something like others before me mentioned just makes more easier to deal with aizen...
But aizen has bankai or so it seems(personally I doubt he has), so that would be a problem...shunsui's shikai influences the opponents as shunsui by limiting or raising attack power(or other stuff we didn't see yet)...so I doubt aizen's godhood or it's zanpaktous's perfectness...yama,unohana etc. were captains long before aizen...that must mean something...
Also there's urahara a bright shinigami, whose invention was stolen by aizen...i'm sure urahara can create something that can negate to some degree the powers of kyoka suigetsu

conn-man
October 03, 2009, 03:20 PM
also there was this little moment that kyoraku had with the double of aizens
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.09/02/
so now we have unohana and kyoraku who have both seen somthing or some kind of flaw in perfect hypnosis.

this tell me that at some point someone will find a way around it, and that will pressure aizen into using another form of attacking.

Saint Markus
October 03, 2009, 06:14 PM
well, yeah of course it's not "invincible". i mean, gin and tousen alone could fight aizen fairly, doesn't mean they would win. aizen's real power, i think, doesn't revolve around his zanpakuto's ability, but that ability is a factor mainly towards his defenses. i think urahara could fight aizen though, he uses actual intelligence before power when fighting opponents.

Yans86
October 04, 2009, 10:45 AM
Until not long ago I thought Aizen's move was invincible, with no flaws. Well I think I may have found one, which is its very strong point: it affects all of the five senses of someone. Normally nobody has any chance against it, but if there is a shikai (or a bankai) which can locate people by itself, without relying on any of the five senses then Kyouka Suigetsu would become useless.
Such an hypotetical shinigami with this kind of power could locate Aizen evreywhere no matter what he does, Kyouka Suigetsu included.


I don't know why....but while reading it I thought about.......Gin's shinsou!!!!!

I still stick with my idea of Aizen's illusion breaking(for brief moment), when his zanpakotou touch an opponent o when he cast a kidou.And well I think that is getting closer to this with the last chapter:

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/376/02/ CUT
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/376/03/ ILLUSION
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/376/04/ Aizen's zanpakotou pierce and the illusion shatters....

As we pointed out Kenpachi's method,slashing randomly and stuff like that would not do the job.

The mind's eye can be a good trick but it has too much flaw IMO.
1)Beside Tousen,even if dumb...I think that the only 2 able to use it are Gin and OldYama.At least to counter a couple of hits coming.
2)Aizen speed and power is so "mighty",that going out of your usual sword fighting style to get him won't do any good.
3)The time u "close" your eyes u will still have other 4 sense deceived,which means that beside"feelin his reiatsu's move",u should be able to do it while being attacked,while having several people leaking reiatsu at full power too....(it would become a reiatsu mist + confused 4 sense + attempting to focus on your objective)....something impossible if Aizen want u death in 3 split seconds....

Using the mind eye can be effective if u can fight using it,at a superior lvl then captain level.
1 VS 1,would be more effective against Tousen,because while having all your senses erased it would be easier to focus only on him.

Question is:
Aizen using kyouka suigetsu while Gin and Tousen start backstabbing everyone.....how would they notice and how much time would it take to counter them and Aizen???
They would probably end up dead before even knowing what happened in the same way ithey get hollowified in the gaiden...

En Yang Ji
October 04, 2009, 02:39 PM
Imo several people can break out of Aizen's illusions:


- I think Shinji, Urahara, and Unohana can compete with Aizen when he's only using his shikai. Even though Aizen said his complete hypnosis is flawless, there are ways of getting around that:

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.1/009/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/171/17/

If Shinji watched Aizen intently, maybe he could fight Aizen on a equal level before he's uses his bankai.

- It might not show that well in the manga, but it seems like Shinji ripped through an illusion caused by Aizen's shikai: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzVWncHQx48

- I think this is how Ichigo is going to beat Aizen, by noticing more and more things that are off with Aizen's illusions and by improving his concentration in battle.

Yans86
October 04, 2009, 03:14 PM
I got several problems with Unohana and Shinji,which is TIME!!!!!!

Unohana noticed "something ODD",it's not like she broke or see through kyouka suigetsu,and this only because she spent the longest time on inspectioning it!!!in a fight u r not goin to inspection ecc....ecc....and still Unohana failed cause she thought that it was a corpse doll......

About Shinji....well,noticing something odd in your VC,notice that it has been replaced is still a whole lot different then seeing through the illusion and fight back!

About the gaiden,well,we still don't know if it was an illusion or a kido(the same Hinamor used to conceal herself).Problem is that happening was at the beginning of the Gaiden....Azien growth stronger later,and even more stronger in this 100 years so accomplish such a thing won't be that easy again,overall if he charges at u at full power :-P

zerocooldx
October 04, 2009, 11:55 PM
Well from what i can tell Zanpakuto have one of the following types of abilities/techniques.

1. Physical- Such as Hozukimaru and Gegetsuburi. Where only the "physical" abilities of the Zanpakuto are used.

2. Reiatsu- Such as Zangetsu and Katen Kyokotsu. Where the abilities of the Zanpakuto depend on the reiatsu usage and manipulation.

3. Kido- Such as Ruriro Kujaku and Tobiume. Where the Zanpakuto are able to use Kido based abilities.

4. Elemental- Such as Ryujin Jakka and Tachikaze. Where the Zanpakuto is able to create and use elementally based abilities.

Now after seeing Aizen's Kyoka Suigetsu i believe that it is very similar to Kyoraku's Katen Kyokotsu. In the sense that both use the reiatsu of their Zanpakutos in order to basically "force" people to do things. Such was the case was when Aizen uses Kyoka Suigetsu and "forces" his illusion upon anyone he wants to. Now Katen Kyokotsu acts on verbal commands and gives both sides a "fair" opportunity. While Kyoka Suigetsu only seems to act upon Aizen's will and does do without alerting anyone else. But both manipulate individuals by the use of their reiatsu. Thus the reason that i believe that Kyoka Suigetsu is reiatsu based.

kkck
October 05, 2009, 12:39 AM
I always thought it was assumed kyoka suigetsu was a kido type zampakuto lol. The way I see it, there are two kinds of zampakuto. The first type is kido and the second one is the melee type. The kido type zampakuto is the one that has some sort of supernatural special ability and the melee type zampakuto is the one that relies on direct physical combat and it's shape.

Seeing the incident involving unohana, it would seem as if the illusions created by aizen are not 100% perfect. In that sense it should be possible to notice imperfections in whatever illusion aizen is creating. That should be quite hard though, borderline impossible. Unohana is supposed to know quite a bit about the human body, yet she did not notice aizen's fake body was an illusion, she merely thought it was fake. Given that, I would think noticing the illusion would only be possible under extremely specific circumstances. Given the unohana thing and what aizen told shinji about him not noticing aizen had been replaced for a month, it would seem the illusion is limited to what aizen knows and what the one under the illusion knows. Logically aizen should not be able to create a fake body that goes beyond of what he knows of it and he should not be able to create an illusion which can act and respond to every conceivable situation on it's own(hence why he used the illusion on someone rather than just leave behind a random illusion).

Now, that should be quite some trouble. If the limitations of the illusion are what aizen knows and what others know, then the fact that aizen is the one creating the illusion is quite troublesome(the current consensus is that aizen knows 101% of everything). Of course, the previous does not mean you can break from the illusion, it only means there is a 0.00001% you can figure out there is an illusion(should you know more about the subject matter of the illusion than aizen).

I think at some point someone will just break out of the illusion through sheer willpower or determination.... there will be nothing special to it when it finally happens.

Jamil2009
October 05, 2009, 07:21 AM
Couldn't kyoka suigetsu make the shinigami in question misinterpret what his zampakuto is saying though? At least I think it is well within aizen's possibilities to do that.

Such a sword would work only as long as aizen does not figure it's power. The other main issue here is that the user never really breaks out of the illusion meaning that even if for a while the user will not be fooled regarding aizen's location, aizen could still make the user see things that are not there such as a wall, house and whatnot. Being capable of knowing where aizen is without being able to see the fighting ground properly would definitely be a problem. Also, just knowing where aizen is would probably not be enough. You can know where aizen is but without seeing him properly you will not be fighting him for long.

The way I see it, to defeat kyoka suigetsu you need to actually somehow break out of the illusion, not just know where aizen is. In that sense, what you need would be a zampakuto that can somehow either break out of illusions or see the truth of any situation.......

I recently reached the same idea. Only a zanpakutoh that can show the truth in any situation would have a chance against Aizen. But I doubt victory would be certain still as the wielder of such a zanpakutoh would then have to face Aizen's crushing reiatsu and sharp combat skills...

The only other option for Aizen's downfall (and I've been thinking about this for a looooong time) is Tousen. If Tousen truly walks the path of least blood-shed he might currently be doing an insider job, biding his time, waiting for the right moment to mutiny and strike Aizen dead. Sounds crazy? Yes. But he is the only person who can take Aizen out as it is. Like the first option, however, he would have to face Aizen's prowess...

Freeloadersan
October 29, 2009, 12:22 PM
I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but after reading a post in the fight section it got me thinking. Could Orihime reject the "Ritual of Hypnosis" event from people who have been afflicted by KS? Then everyone would have to be re-hypnotized.

kkck
October 29, 2009, 05:32 PM
I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but after reading a post in the fight section it got me thinking. Could Orihime reject the "Ritual of Hypnosis" event from people who have been afflicted by KS? Then everyone would have to be re-hypnotized.

The illusion seems to be placed on someone rather than on a given area so I would think orahime indeed could reject the hypnotic effect on a specific person. I had never really thought of that lol. It seems orihime and her goldly power can do just about anything....

drakend
October 30, 2009, 12:26 PM
The illusion seems to be placed on someone rather than on a given area so I would think orahime indeed could reject the hypnotic effect on a specific person. I had never really thought of that lol. It seems orihime and her goldly power can do just about anything....
No.
Orihime has huge problems in rejecting events created by people with reiatsu stronger than hers.
I hope so because some costraints are needed on Orihime's powers in order to make Bleach a bit more belieavable than it currently is. I mean as far as we know Orihime can reject Aizen's existence and ending the manga in a chapter: that's quite lame imho.

kkck
October 30, 2009, 12:52 PM
No.
Orihime has huge problems in rejecting events created by people with reiatsu stronger than hers.
I hope so because some costraints are needed on Orihime's powers in order to make Bleach a bit more belieavable than it currently is. I mean as far as we know Orihime can reject Aizen's existence and ending the manga in a chapter: that's quite lame imho.

She does seem to have problem with strong reiatsus but that in turn seems to be compensated by giving it more time. Even if orihime's powers are godlike, her character stops her from using them at their full potential. Even if she does get a chance to erradicate aizen, odds are she won't be able to bring herself to do it. Orihime is her very own cage in a way. I would doubt the illusion requires large amounts of reaitsu though(and to some extent it seems orihime has problems with arrancar reiatsu rather than reiatsu in general).

drakend
November 07, 2009, 02:49 AM
She does seem to have problem with strong reiatsus but that in turn seems to be compensated by giving it more time. Even if orihime's powers are godlike, her character stops her from using them at their full potential. Even if she does get a chance to erradicate aizen, odds are she won't be able to bring herself to do it. Orihime is her very own cage in a way. I would doubt the illusion requires large amounts of reaitsu though(and to some extent it seems orihime has problems with arrancar reiatsu rather than reiatsu in general).
Well be it time or reiatsu level, I just want some costraints on her power, costraints indipendent from her will possibly.
As of now Orihime has been a walking plotkai and that's quite annoying: leaving the power levels inconsistency issue aside, I don't want to read 30 chapters just to discover they have been rejected by Inoue... :rolleyes:
[hr]
I have a very interesting question for minna-san: in this chapter in was CLEARLY IMPLIED that evreyone in SS was doomed to begin with, Yamamoto included.
If that's the case why does Aizen took the long way in order to reach the King's throne? Why didn't he slaughter all of SS at the end of SS arc and having Yamamoto saying the location of the already existing Royal Key?
Why does Aizen need Espada and Vastroodes? Something doesn't sum up imho: Aizen has been certified to be a one-man-army in this chapter. We already knew that, but now it has been stated clearly in the manga, so we must take that into account. I have the suspect that Aizen didn't consider SS his true enemy and the Espada his true soldiers to begin with: they're just stepping stones towards the Royal Dimension.
I hope that's the case, otherwise it would be the biggest plothole in manga history!

kkck
November 07, 2009, 03:12 AM
I also made a comment of the sort in the past. At first it seemed as if aizen was researching hollow powers for himself, yet it was later showed he used his research to create an army. Even 100 years ago aizen already had everyone in SS under his spell. He could have taken his time to kill all the 13 captains and no one would notice until it was too late. Doing that would have enabled him to get the information regarding the key at his own leisure without nothing to stop him. Yet in spite of being able to do that he chose to create a new army of incredibly powerful fighters. It is still within the realm of possibilities aizen will at some point also get himself hollow powers.

I mean, just aizen, gin and tousen represented roughly 25% of SS forces before defecting(technically aizen would have represented more but that is besides the point).... There is no real reasonable reason for aizen to go as far as he did. I mean, so far it seems as if he has done everything he has done for nothing more than his own amusement(and more importantly, for the readers amusement.... could aizen be kubo lol). Aizen has shown pleasure along with gin in seeing petty small insignificant people such as the gotei 13 captains, ichigo, urahara struggle against whatever he sets in their way but even then it seems a little too much to go this far for the sake of amusement. If going this far for the sake of amusement is going to far and aizen did not really need the espada to defeat SS, then it stands to reason the espada from the start were to served an entirely different purpose from what initially appeared to be the case. It is plausible the espada where meant to fight the royal guard from the start but I do really have my doubts about the RG being all that stronger than the gotei 13 itself. I would think they are roughly equal. And technically, mifune was already under the effect of aizens illusion before she got promoted(No reason to believe she wasn't) so one of the RG is already useless lol.

drakend
November 07, 2009, 10:34 AM
kkck I agree with most of what you've written, but there is a big difference between what you posted in the past and now: there is evidence now to support that Aizen >>>>> evreyone else put together. Now people theories about Aizen needing help because he wasn't powerful enough have gone in the dustbin forever. I think Aizen is making a giant real life experiments and he's analyzing the results in order to move on with his plan. A partial failure doesn't mean Aizen is risking to lose the war for the simple fact that he can kill evreyone on his own anyway. I think he's using the results of these battles in order to made the vastroode arrancar in the best possible way and to hybridize himself at the end. Aizen's true enemy is the Royal Guard and the Spirit King, not Gotei 13 or Vaizards, who are just pawns in his big plan.
If this isn't like this then Bleach is basically a huge plot hole... :D
[hr]

This scenario portrays Aizen as a complete idiot, it doesn't make sense at all.
I see where you're coming from, but if Aizen considers Gotei 13 and Espada just as stepping stones then it makes sense. He's testing hybridization in order to reach the method with the purest result: in this sense it has all been a testing to Aizen since one hundred years ago!



So how exactly should we interpret Unohana's words? She certainly has a plan to use Ichigo in this war as a valuable asset and makes sure Ichigo understands the direness of the situation.

There is no way of interpreting Unohana's words: they're too clear to be metaphorical. No one is able to stand against Aizen right now, not even Yamamoto. Note that she didn't mention the Royal Guards in her "doomed list", so I think they're Aizen's true enemy, besides the Spirit King of course.



Since Aizen can't avoid Ichigo like he does to other captains, his only choice will be to face and kill him. SS will make sure that Ichigo will survive until he gets strong enough to end the Aizen threat once and for all.

Aizen just has to show his shikai to Ichigo and the war is all over, according to Unohana. I don't think it's so difficult for Aizen to find an opening in Ichigo to show his shikai... but he won't even need it to crush Ichigo right now.
Let's not forget that Aizen is the strongest captain after Yamamoto, without including his shikai's abilities of course.
Besides Unohana doesn't know evreything anyway, like the existence of Kurosaki Isshin, just to make an example... but that unknown factor is counter balanced by Aizen's BANKAI.
(Yeah the dude is supposed to have a bankai...)



Aizen is undefeatable = Huge plot hole in Bleach that can't be covered. It renders SS and arrancar arcs meaningless. I have the power to kill them all but I'm resorting to nonsensical trickery to accomplish my goals! Aizen's abilities have weaknesses, get ready to see them exploited. ;)
No they haven't, at least not for Unohana, who should be quite much more informed than us... :D
The fact Aizen took such a long route can be explain in two ways imho:
1) the living test theory, the one I posted before, in order to clash against the RG.
2) just to not get bored of having a flawless victory: Bleach would have been a kind of one-shor manga! LOL

1) is the most logical one and I support it, but the 2) is more funny imho. I noticed that Aizen is amused by Ichigo's actions and growth rate, so what Unohana calls "Ichigo's best advantage" in his upcoming confrontation agaist Aizen may very well be all a planned thing by Aizen. Why? To not doom a potential worth opponent with his hypnosis to begin with...

Gran Maestro
November 07, 2009, 11:56 AM
@ drakend:

We have a paradox here:

Unohana thinks that once Aizen hypnotizes you, there's no defense and he can certainly kill you without much effort. Even Gotei 13, Urahara team and vizards cannot stop him.

Aizen thinks that even if he hypnotizes somebody, it doesn't secure a victory and he may lose. Why else would he think that he would definitely lose to combined power of all espada even though they were under his spell and helpless?

Aizen is certainly more knowledgeable than Unohana about his own powers, so it leaves us three options:

1) Unohana is wrong.

2) We misinterpret Unohana.

3) Kubo gives us false information to confuse us. He made Aizen lie/behave unreasonably, and Unohana is right. According to my criteria, he has never done that before but if it turns out to be correct, it will be an insult to our intelligence.

I don't want to think about option 3, so if we aren't misinterpreting Unohana, she is wrong. I posted my own interpretation about Unohana's words before and it doesn't necessarily contradict what Unohana told us.

Hear me, Kubo: If Aizen is really undefeatable, I want to see him wipe the floor with all his enemies. I want to see him humiliate Yamamoto. If you won't do that, don't make your characters talk nonsense. Ichigo is no match for him right now so if he retreats, it will be counter-evidence to his supposed invincibility. Mark my words, he'll retreat because he doesn't have the power to move forward. ;)

drakend
November 07, 2009, 01:37 PM
@ drakend:
Aizen thinks that even if he hypnotizes somebody, it doesn't secure a victory and he may lose. Why else would he think that he would definitely lose to combined power of all espada even though they were under his spell and helpless?

He states he's more powerful than ALL of the Espada combined together... read here (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/376/02/).

Gran Maestro
November 07, 2009, 01:49 PM
He states he's more powerful than ALL of the Espada combined together... read here (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/376/02/).

But at one point he thought he couldn't defeat them all. Read the detailed explanation here (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1664163#post1664163). ;)

kkck
November 07, 2009, 02:16 PM
kkck I agree with most of what you've written, but there is a big difference between what you posted in the past and now: there is evidence now to support that Aizen >>>>> evreyone else put together. Now people theories about Aizen needing help because he wasn't powerful enough have gone in the dustbin forever. I think Aizen is making a giant real life experiments and he's analyzing the results in order to move on with his plan. A partial failure doesn't mean Aizen is risking to lose the war for the simple fact that he can kill evreyone on his own anyway. I think he's using the results of these battles in order to made the vastroode arrancar in the best possible way and to hybridize himself at the end. Aizen's true enemy is the Royal Guard and the Spirit King, not Gotei 13 or Vaizards, who are just pawns in his big plan.
If this isn't like this then Bleach is basically a huge plot hole...

Of course there is a difference in what I wrote lol. We have vastly different circumstances now. In the past it really didn't make sense for aizen to be stronger than anyone in SS(even though all of us at some point wondered why aizen didn't use the illusion to make himself invisible and murder each captain and shinigami in SS at his own time) while now it makes no sense that he isn't stronger than everyone in SS. My prediction for the last chapters of this arc(which in all fairness could be 2 volumes LOL) is that ichigo is going to get his chance to shine, then aizen is gonna say something like "You have fulfilled my expectations; just as expected; this experiment was a failure" and he is gonna walk away like nothing ever happened.

niblack89
November 07, 2009, 08:47 PM
I think Aizen's bankai would be that he can manipulate everyone who his shekai was used against. His shekai gives him the ability to of complete hypnoses but they never said how many people. I believe his bankai would give him complete hypnoses of everyone. Everyone would be Aizen's slave. That's why I think that's why Aizen never shows fear. No one can beat him there all his slaves. Even Yammimotto.

drakend
November 08, 2009, 06:21 AM
I think Aizen's bankai would be that he can manipulate everyone who his shekai was used against. His shekai gives him the ability to of complete hypnoses but they never said how many people. I believe his bankai would give him complete hypnoses of everyone. Everyone would be Aizen's slave. That's why I think that's why Aizen never shows fear. No one can beat him there all his slaves. Even Yammimotto.
Yes it has been said: evreyone who has been exposed to it, basically evreyone known to the current manga plot line, with the exception of Ichigo's gang and Ichigo himself. Unohana makes a list too... anyway the Royal Guards and Isshin has been excluded I think, for the simple fact she isn't aware of their existence or their involvement in the current war.
Regarding Aizen's bankai ability... I think what you described it's done by his shikai already: if you can control the five person's sense then he's your slave basically. You can make him/her believe he's doing something while he/she is doing something entirely different. For example: Aizen may make Yamamoto believing he's killing enemies, while he's slaughtering his captains.... :D
I still think Aizen is abnormally strong btw, even for a final evil boss imho. A dude who can take down the entire known Bleachverse (so excluding the Royal Dimension) on his own cannot be just "a random prodigy". He can own evrey known character in Bleach with his ludicrously powerful shikai (SHIKAI!!!) and/or with his unbelieavable skills anyway.
Who the fuck is Aizen? :D

My personal speculation based on nothing: he's the fallen Spirit King, casted away because he was too evil or something.

Yans86
November 08, 2009, 09:10 AM
The complete control thingy of Aizen's bankai is just over here.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/177/15/
We have seen people under "complete hypnosis",but no one of them was mind controlled to do things....and we dont know if there are kidou that can...so...

Gran Maestro
November 08, 2009, 11:54 AM
One thing I wanna ask is that doesn't Aizen have to use his reiatsu to keep the illusion going? I mean is it like the fire cage that yam-jii created which didn't need reiatsu to go on burning, cause it looks like he doesn't have to use his reiatsu much to use his illusions like other shikai abilities do. And even if he needs to he doesn't have to constantly keep using it to continously power up his Shikai illusions

IMO he uses spiritual energy when he uses his zanpakuto to create an illusion but after then, no more spiritual energy is necessary and the illusion stays forever. (Of course unless Aizen deactivates the illusion or something happens to him/his zanpakuto)

Forever_Melody
November 08, 2009, 11:33 PM
What bothers me is why Kyouka Suigetsu doesn't need to be active for Aizen to use his powers. The only reason I can think of is that Aizen is constantly released(as the released Kyouka Suigetsu doesn't physically look different from its sealed version).

The illusion is Kyouka Suigetsu's power, not Aizen's and while the illusion is permanent, you'd think he'd need the Zanpakuto's powers to further manipulate the illusions themselves.

I mean, that's like Soifon's Shikai; her marks can be permanent if Soifon wishes it(according to Soi Fon herself), but she still needs her Suzumebachi to be released in order to both inflict the mark and apply further use of it(i.e. the second "killing" blow).

So I'd parallel Aizen's "ritual" to Soi Fon's initial "poke" and further manipulation of the illusions to Soi Fon's second strike(i/e/ further use of the mark). While both initial abilities(the ritual and the infliction of the mark) need the Zanpakuto to be released, they can persist indefinitely. However, further use of the powers(illusions & the marks) IMO should require the Zanpakuto to be released if we parallel Suzumebachi to Kyouka Suigetsu(considering both have an element of "indefinite" on them).

Gran Maestro
November 09, 2009, 04:54 AM
What bothers me is why Kyouka Suigetsu doesn't need to be active for Aizen to use his powers. The only reason I can think of is that Aizen is constantly released(as the released Kyouka Suigetsu doesn't physically look different from its sealed version).

It's possible that Aizen is constantly released. Here (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/376/02/) Aizen sheathes his sword but he is still an illusion.

Gecko Moria
November 09, 2009, 06:33 PM
He states he's more powerful than ALL of the Espada combined together... read here (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/376/02/).

The translation of that certain speech by Aizen differs greatly throughout the scanlations. The fact that you linked to a SleepyFans scanlation on OneManga doesn't help in the authenticity of your theory either. For example, in the much higher quality M7 scanlation, that bubble was translated as this (http://mangahelpers.com/s/maximum7/readonline/56839/4?t=1257809355).

Forever_Melody
November 10, 2009, 08:52 AM
It's possible that Aizen is constantly released. Here (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/376/02/) Aizen sheathes his sword but he is still an illusion.

Well that's the only idea I can think of. Perhaps the "Shatter" command isn't a release command so much as it's a command to activate a power(i.e. the ritual). It's kinda like Urahara's Benihime; it has a release command("Awaken") and an attack command("Nake" which I forgot if its cry or sing)..

crimsonlink310
November 12, 2010, 09:50 PM
What do you guys think Aizen's bankai was? What were its abilities?

The only ones to have known about the Bankai besides Aizen is the 3 captains who tested him for Bankai mastery if he chose that route or Aizen most likely got the personal recommendation from 6 captains and had 3 out of the 7 left agree to his promotion. Of course there is still the question of when Aizen became a captain due to SS losing a bunch of captains during TBTP.

In order to top the "Complete Hypnosis" of it's Shikai form, Bankai most likely lets Aizen make his Illusions become reality for his enemies. However I think because Bankais take up lots of energy, Aizen doesn't use it as he can't afford to maintain that much power all at once along with his barriers and kido attacks. Yes Aizen has plenty of power but maintaining an Illusions for a time period must burn up tons of energy.

So discuss and share your thoughts on Aizen's Bankai. Please try to follow all the rules and no spamming.

Richo
November 13, 2010, 12:49 AM
I think Aizen's bankai may be like Soi fon's. His bankai's ability may be barely related to his shikai's ability.

actualy soi fon her shikai and bankai are related and its indeed a power up of her shikai. Her shikai needs to hit the same target twice to kill a target where as mostly her bankai would kill a opponent instantly, this is semi-confirmed when she says she can only use it once every 2 days at max (probably due huge amount of reiatsu focused in the attack).

We dont need to theorize about aizen his bankai anymore for now, as the hougyouku seemed to have removed aizen his zanpaktou which was the next step in his evolution.

El Samurai Guapo
November 13, 2010, 01:33 AM
Kubo purposely removed Kyouka Suigetsu from the storyline because it was too overpowered. We're never going to see a bankai from Aizen cause kanzen saimin it's pretty much unsurpassable. Kubo himself obviously figured this out eventually which is why he went with the 'Aizen merges with the hogyouku' route.

Grekaosangel
November 13, 2010, 05:06 AM
What do you guys think Aizen's bankai was? What were its abilities?

The only ones to have known about the Bankai besides Aizen is the 3 captains who tested him for Bankai mastery if he chose that route or Aizen most likely got the personal recommendation from 6 captains and had 3 out of the 7 left agree to his promotion. Of course there is still the question of when Aizen became a captain due to SS losing a bunch of captains during TBTP.

In order to top the "Complete Hypnosis" of it's Shikai form, Bankai most likely lets Aizen make his Illusions become reality for his enemies. However I think because Bankais take up lots of energy, Aizen doesn't use it as he can't afford to maintain that much power all at once along with his barriers and kido attacks. Yes Aizen has plenty of power but maintaining an Illusions for a time period must burn up tons of energy.

So discuss and share your thoughts on Aizen's Bankai. Please try to follow all the rules and no spamming.

I don't think for even one second (unless proven otherwise) that Aizen ever had a Bankai. His raw power and intellect, combined with one hax shikai, literally paved the way for him to do all he did. There's absolutely no evidence to say he has a Bankai.

He's never talked about it. No one else has talked about it. And in all honesty, I think he made an illusion of a Bankai to become a captain.

crimsonlink310
November 13, 2010, 12:14 PM
Well I think Kubo should just say that Kyoka Suigetsu is a permanent Bankai release like Ichigo's permanent Shikai release zanpaktou.

That way it turns out that Aizen was always in Bankai and then Kyoka Suigetsu wouldn't seem as powerful.

I noticed that all the Zanpaktou that have Getsu in their name are really powerful.

Bowser
November 13, 2010, 12:40 PM
If Bankai ever existed, I would've thought it had something to do with messing around with peoples memories/mind control or something. Or he could've shown off his shikai, and made bankai up or something.

Xerneas
November 14, 2010, 12:23 PM
Aizen has a Ban Kai. We know that because he released KS twice in FKT without any action (once against Hallibel and then against Hitsugaya and co.) You can't do that unless you dominated your zanpakutou and learned final release. And we will see it I expect. Why? Cause he's still in the story. Unfortunately. He's coming back. And when we see it we'll laugh at how he obsessed after stupid transcendent crap. I was extremely let down by Kubo when Aizen had a complete mental collapse and didn't use it against Ichigo. I hate him but that should have been his trump card to make the fight closer.

I seriously doubt Kubo didn't come up with a power, years and years after designing Aizen's character. He's not that terrible. Common sense dictates that after coming up with KS base power and making it so strong, the very next thing you would do is work out the final stage. Surely he has those Ban Kai of SS Arc people in storage for ages....

Its probably some mass hallucination power where everyone is trapped in a dream state. They could be going about their daily lives completely oblivious to the fact that everything is fake (matrix thing).

On a related note, its so obvious that Kubo is gonna bring back Aizen on the side of good. Ugh. He'll still be evil like Mayuri but be working with the heroes. First that ridiculous speech by Ichigo on his solitude blah blah - so laughable - even worse is that some people fell for Kubo's nonsense and sympathized with that fool. He really needs to quit with the pretentious, would-be poetic chapters. Gin's story, if you can even call it that, was just as bad.

Secondly, Aizen's new look. Its quite significant so I'm surprised no one else mentioned it. You guys realize he's wearing all-black now? In the Eastern world, black is the colour of good and white is the colour of evil and death. After he revealed himself as the main villain, Aizen wore all-white and so did all his minions. White is also the dominant colour on Hollows, who were the antagonists from the very beginning, although they're not exactly evil altogether. Then all his transformations were white, especially Butterflaizen. The Quincy were/are also the antagonists to the "good guys" and the world order and they wear all-white too so its been a huge theme all along. Ichigo on the other hand wears all-black. His transformations are all-black too, with the Mugetsu being the most exaggerated. By Kubo's logic that was ultimate good. The regular Shinigami aka good guy uniform is black too. So bondage Aizen = good guy Aizen. -_-;

landundersea
February 08, 2011, 03:11 PM
regarding aizen's bankai, sorry if sth similar has been posted before, i was thinking what made hinamori stand up during the fkt fight and go up there with all the other captains and get herself stabbed??

i don't think that was simply ks's basic ability, what sort of illusion created by sth controling your senses could convince a semi-unconscious girl to stand up and go participate in a fight? imo, it was either her doing as aizen said for no real reason (she knows he is the enemy and even if she still admires the guy i doubt she would do sth like that on her own free will), or aizen used another ability maybe his bankai on her.

on a sidenote, the only reason aizen would not know how to go bankai would be if the illusion-type zanpakutos do not have the usual mechanism of shikai/ bankai. or his at least.

Exodi
February 09, 2011, 12:08 PM
Secondly, Aizen's new look. Its quite significant so I'm surprised no one else mentioned it. You guys realize he's wearing all-black now? In the Eastern world, black is the colour of good and white is the colour of evil and death. After he revealed himself as the main villain, Aizen wore all-white and so did all his minions. White is also the dominant colour on Hollows, who were the antagonists from the very beginning, although they're not exactly evil altogether. Then all his transformations were white, especially Butterflaizen. The Quincy were/are also the antagonists to the "good guys" and the world order and they wear all-white too so its been a huge theme all along. Ichigo on the other hand wears all-black. His transformations are all-black too, with the Mugetsu being the most exaggerated. By Kubo's logic that was ultimate good. The regular Shinigami aka good guy uniform is black too. So bondage Aizen = good guy Aizen. -_-;

I think it means more that he was defeated by good, rather than he became good. When we saw him in the Central 46 chamber he was still an arrogant douche. Maybe eventually he'll change.

Xerneas
February 09, 2011, 12:15 PM
Yeah but look at Mayuri. He's probably the most demented person in the series and is on the good side. I just can't see Aizen as a villain again cause he got beat so bad. Only his hardcore fans would want him back but his villain aura got completely shattered. You can't take a guy like that seriously, and he'd just be heading for a second round of embarrassment in the end anyway. I think he will help Ichigo at some point even though he's still a nutcase.

He may also be used as a scapegoat to set up the final villain. So far the Hogyoku has proven to be indestructible (Mugetsu didn't even leave a scratch on that thing). Kubo can use its destruction to show the King's godly power.

luffyg2
February 12, 2011, 03:59 AM
The illusions become the reality. Basically Aizen can do what ever he wants lol

This is probably the most logical follow up to his power... instead of it just being an illusion it becomes reality

AlB
April 17, 2011, 04:15 PM
What do you guys think Aizen's bankai was? What were its abilities?

The only ones to have known about the Bankai besides Aizen is the 3 captains who tested him for Bankai mastery if he chose that route or Aizen most likely got the personal recommendation from 6 captains and had 3 out of the 7 left agree to his promotion. Of course there is still the question of when Aizen became a captain due to SS losing a bunch of captains during TBTP.

In order to top the "Complete Hypnosis" of it's Shikai form, Bankai most likely lets Aizen make his Illusions become reality for his enemies. However I think because Bankais take up lots of energy, Aizen doesn't use it as he can't afford to maintain that much power all at once along with his barriers and kido attacks. Yes Aizen has plenty of power but maintaining an Illusions for a time period must burn up tons of energy.

So discuss and share your thoughts on Aizen's Bankai. Please try to follow all the rules and no spamming.

If that was the case Aizen would have gone Bankai on Yamamoto's and FGT Ichigo's assess and turn them into little kids or something for a minute to simply behead them lol

Sharaku
May 27, 2011, 10:17 PM
The fact that the Hogyoku phased his Zanpakuto out of exsistance was a way out of giving Aizen something stronger than Kanzen Saimin. But since we're speculating, I began having thoughts that during his final fight with Ichigo, Aizen would use his Bankai as his last resort, which would be some sort of dome like projection (similar to Tosen's Bankai) that would trap his target in an endless illusion that would leave the target in a state of extreme shock leaving him/her helpless to a killing blow.

Boris999
May 28, 2011, 02:42 PM
Its probably some mass hallucination power where everyone is trapped in a dream state. They could be going about their daily lives completely oblivious to the fact that everything is fake (matrix thing).

Can so see it now.... Aizen's defeat, Final Tecnique, current Arc.... All one big illusion. Ichigo wakes up to a blown up town and finds the world in chaos and Aizen as spirit king, ascended thanks to that magic box he has in his chest.

xD The ultimate Aizen 'I was always in control muhahah' Scenario.

I'm sorry, I'm laughing now.