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View Full Version : Power Level How strong are the Vizards?



Onomatopoeia
July 14, 2009, 12:19 AM
I've noticed a lot of talk in the Chapter Discussion thread about how strong the VZ's are lately, not without good reason of course since they finally appeared just a few chapters ago, and I figured why not make a thread just for that since I didn't see any other threads about it.

So then just how strong are the VZ's? Have all the VC's gained Bankai or not? And the Captain Vizards Shunsui level+ or are they weaker? Will they destroy the Espada or is it the other way around? Is Shinji Yama-ji/Aizen level or is he a lesser force?

Whatever the case try to keep discussions on the matter here.

L0ki
July 14, 2009, 01:00 AM
They won't be fodder, that's for sure. Right now I'm inclined to think that they'll have an epic battle and lose. I can't see them winning here without screwing up what little is left from the plot.

Rainl
July 14, 2009, 01:21 AM
I suspect the LT, level Vizards to be around the level of Zaraki/Byakuya. The captain level vizards around the level of Shunsui/Ukitake/Unohana, with only Shinji being slightly stronger than the three with none being at Yamamoto's/Aizen's level.

Gran Maestro
July 14, 2009, 04:36 AM
VC vizards are around Byakuya/Yoruichi level, captain vizards are slightly weaker than Shunsui (Rose a little more), Shinji is on par with or slightly stronger than Shunsui.

Their success against the espada depends on the match-ups. If Aizen fights, vizards will eventually lose. If Aizen, Gin and Tousen doesn't fight, espada (and WW) will lose.

Yans86
July 14, 2009, 07:13 AM
Lol!!WW can rape night and day all the Ukitake/Shunsui level with one hand...if these guys are on that level,this fight will last 7 panels!

-Ren Boy-
July 14, 2009, 07:22 AM
The vice captains without masks must have reached captain level presumablly the level of average captain or lower tier captain. And with the mask it should raise thm to about Average to even a highier tier captain. I would assume the VC vizards know bankai because they were surrounded by 4 captains who should know bankai. And if they wanted to get revenge, not only would they train eachother to use the mask but also to advance the shignimi side as in learning new kidou and bankai.

The captains speak for themselves because they were captains lol. All of them must be on par with Byukaya, and when masks are put on they are defo on par or stronger than shunsui

faisfa1
July 14, 2009, 07:57 AM
it was said in the last chapter that they all are captain level without the mask. so if the former leutenants are now captain level, the former captains at least be middle tier(if they were lower tier in SS) without the mask.

And let's not forget, the vizards have been doing nothing but training the last 100 years. I don't think I can say the same for SS captains.

En Yang Ji
July 14, 2009, 08:40 AM
Most of the VC vizards are likely around Byakuya's level. Hiyori's definitely weaker imo, since she got beat by Ichigo with a hollow mask and his shikai. At best I think she is low captain level. I figure Hachi was probably a strong VC before he turned into a vizard because he was able to use a level 99 bakudo without an incantion, to subdue a hollow version of Kensei.

Mashiro started being able to wear her mask for hours on end, so I doubt she had to train as many years to master her hollow powers. So Mashiro had more time to upgrade her shinigami abilities. I'm not sure about Lisa, but she looks strong so I guess she also is around Byakuya's level.

Another thing is, they can could have been VCs for a long amount of time, have haxx zanpakatou or they could be really talented. So that may have something to do with the level their currently at.

I think most of the Vizard Captains are near Shunsui's level, with Shinji being near Yamamoto and Aizen's level.

Josear XIII
July 14, 2009, 09:59 AM
You just gotta check that their only weakness is the time with the mask, Vizards are hax till now, and we dont want to see them opening holes in their chest while their skin becomes white and start to call their swords with the power of the force.

forumsforums
July 14, 2009, 10:37 AM
Most of the VC vizards are likely around Byakuya's level.

ah, but you have to remember.

the vc vaizard were vc's when byakuya was a child.

which means that they were stronger than him in the past.

so since they've gained hollow powers and have had plenty of time to train with them, then how in the world could they be equal to byakuya?

theey were greater than him in the past and have to be greater than him now.

Zatono
July 14, 2009, 10:51 AM
ah, but you have to remember.

the vc vaizard were vc's when byakuya was a child.

which means that they were stronger than him in the past.

so since they've gained hollow powers and have had plenty of time to train with them, then how in the world could they be equal to byakuya?

theey were greater than him in the past and have to be greater than him now.

Byakuya definitely had a greater potential then them though. He was doing Shunpo at that point in time. Only the past captains should be stronger then him, if the VC's are too, that'd be complete overkill. It'd be basically be having a bunch of higher level then byakuya people running around in FKT.

Hokuto-Tenki-Sho
July 14, 2009, 11:01 AM
for me all the vizard are higher then "average" captains.

Of the pack I see Hachi being a really bad ass (in "living" not hollow form he already was really though)

Kensei was tricked out when "hollificated" (making up this word :p ) but from what we know the 9th was/is a strong team and him being the captain should tell about his strength

Shinji is something apart, I believe we haven't seen his true strenght, lets not forget though that he was able to know exactly where Aizen was hiding (to much of his surprise asking "since when you knew I was here".....reply "since you were in your mother womb" LOL)

Questions marks are for me people like: Rojuro & Love.
Laid back type which we know little about.

Hiyori is something of a mystery she could be really bad ass or really soft I would go for the latter one.

Maschiro being able to keep the mask for long could be a surprise such as Lisa.

Guess we have to wait a little longer to know.

En Yang Ji
July 14, 2009, 11:06 AM
Byakuya definitely had a greater potential then them though. He was doing Shunpo at that point in time. Only the past captains should be stronger then him, if the VC's are too, that'd be complete overkill. It'd be basically be having a bunch of higher level then byakuya people running around in FKT.

- Byakuya was born with a lot of reiastu, but I'm not sure that means he has more potential than them. The vizards VC could have higher potential in certain area's.

- The reason he knew shunpo so early is probably because of Yoruichi. I think he grew faster than normal shinigami because of his reiastu and him having Yoruichi as a teacher, but the Vizards were VC before he was even in the Gotei 13.

They had a pretty big headstart on Byakuya.

poobert
July 14, 2009, 12:44 PM
I think Shinji is the consistently strongest good guy (ichi is unpredictable). When they came Yama ignored the rest and looked at Shinji with surprise.

The rest therefore I would say are weaker than Shinji. The ex captains are probably greater than or around Yama level. I don't know what hollification does to pure spiritual power, but only in that regards will they be slightly weaker or on par with yama.

The VC's are weaker than yama. When Lisa was standing over Shunsui I got the feeling that she was stronger than him. Not the same battle experience, so he would probably be the better fighter, but she is definitely stronger.

Any vizard could beat the living crap out of Byakuya. Especially considering that we have only seen them in regular vizard mode. Not even shikai...

Raizen
July 14, 2009, 03:26 PM
ah, but you have to remember.

the vc vaizard were vc's when byakuya was a child.

which means that they were stronger than him in the past.

so since they've gained hollow powers and have had plenty of time to train with them, then how in the world could they be equal to byakuya?

theey were greater than him in the past and have to be greater than him now.
THat is not how things work. Obviously byakuya has much more potential than any vizard VC given that he is royalty and he became a captain and they didn't. WHo cares if he was younger than they were/ Look at aizen, he is much younger than yama yet his strength is pretty close. Ur argument fails!!

THe VC vizards are about soifon's level. THe captain vizards are between byakuya's levcel and shunsui. ANd shinji being possibly tied with shunsui

wooticus
July 14, 2009, 04:21 PM
i really can't clearly say who strong these vaizards will really we. i don't think that al of them will be above the level of, let's say shunsui. can't really imagine hiyori beating the shit out of starrk. ;)

but i think the strenght of the vaizards lies in the synchronisation of shinigami and hollow powers. and that is some category they succeed aizen, even if aizen has already gained hollow powers, too. but it CAN'T be, that aizen perfeclty controls hollow powers after a few month, that would be absolute crap. the vaizard had 100 years to perfectly combine shinigami and hollow strength, and this is the point where the power of hybridisation lies. If you become vaizard just to use hollow powers and forget about shinigami powers than you probably won't become much more than.. yes, a hollow.

that's the reason why ichigo still has much potential left. In his neo ichigo form against ulquiorra he gained access to his full hollow powers and added the strenght of tensa zangetsu, his bankai. but i don't think this powers were synchronized.
but well, it's not that easy to describe using ichigo, because he is someone who doesn't gain any powers but strentgh and speed.

But the other vaizards may like the espada all gain some special power.

For me the fight im waiting for is the one including hacchi. he surely won't do any swordfight, but he had 100 years of time to try to combine hollow powers (cero and so on) with kidou. this just sounds fuckin awesome.
bakudou #101, black cero storm. who cares about starrk? ;)

En Yang Ji
July 14, 2009, 05:56 PM
It's too early to really tell how strong they are. I think the Vizard VC's are around Byakuya's level, because I don't think Kubo is going to make them that talented or experienced as VC's (except Hacchi). I definitely can see them being on Byakuya's level considering a couple things:

- They each might have a unique hollow ability
- They could possibly use Kido, and shunpo techniques non-vizards can't use
- They may even have a second hollow form like Ichigo, though I doubt it

monkey D luffy
July 14, 2009, 06:17 PM
i think every vc has bankai for at least 50 years now and they mastered it, or almost. i mean cmon they got urahara for crying out loud! he basiclly made ichigo achieve bankai in 3 days and i assume he couldve done the same thing for the vices. hachi probably mastered kidou with the help of tessei. all of them mastered basic vaizard mode and maybe achieved ressuraction. i bet shinji is at the very least at yama's level while the others are flactuating between kumamura (weve seen that he is quite strong i put him as a middle tier captain) to unohana but only when they release, without releasing shikai i doubt they are stronger then masked ichigo. without seeing too much i can assume that shinji is close to ichigonators level, and that its slightly above yamaji.

Tsukisama
July 14, 2009, 08:25 PM
Remember that this thread is focusing on the relative power of the vizards specifically; so be sure that your posts relate directly to that objective.

While this thread is not intended to be a ranking thread, if you do post some sort of ranking, remember that all ranking lists require sufficient explanation beyond the order of the list to remain in the thread as is the same in any other discussion thread.

drakend
July 15, 2009, 04:16 AM
Vaizards cannot be fodder, otherwise their existence would be meaningless. I think they will utterly destroy the top three arrancars, who are clearly superior to most captains with the exception, perhaps, of Aizen, Shunsui and Ukitake. Too bad Wonderweiss is there, along with other vastroode arrancars most likely, so the sides of the battle will turn in favor of Aizen again. There is a strong hint towards the existence of an hidden vastroode arrancar army: Aizen is very sure of himself, to the point he said he won't have to move a finger in order to win. He cannot have forgotten about the Vaizards, so he said that phrase taking the Vaizards into account already!!!
The only possible alternative is that Wonderweiss will own evreyone, but that's just too much insane to be true!!!

forumsforums
July 15, 2009, 01:30 PM
THat is not how things work. Obviously byakuya has much more potential than any vizard VC given that he is royalty and he became a captain and they didn't. WHo cares if he was younger than they were/ Look at aizen, he is much younger than yama yet his strength is pretty close. Ur argument fails!!

THe VC vizards are about soifon's level. THe captain vizards are between byakuya's levcel and shunsui. ANd shinji being possibly tied with shunsui

my argument most certainly does not fail.

all we haven't seen byakuya fight any really strong people. just renji, ichigo, and the 7th espada. so you can't really say how strong byakuya is anyways.

and who says that those vaizard didn't have potential? just because they weren't captain level back then? they were vc's when byakuya was a child. a CHILD.

he was not a child prodigy like gin or hitsugaya, so my argument stands.

edit: and if shinji is only as strong as shunsui then that completely defeats the purpose of these characters.

if none of them are stronger than ww or the no 1 espada then they serve no purpose. so for them to even be necessary right now some of them have to be stronger than shunsui. and ALL of the have to be stronger than byaukya and soi fon.

and to whoever said they were about soi fon's level. if that's the case then they can't even beat barragan. making they're entrance even MORE meaningless. if that's the case the best they could do is kill hallibel.

Eddy01741
July 15, 2009, 01:54 PM
Just the way I see it (completely unsubstantiated, so it's just a prediction with little or no evidence):

Ex-VC vizards are low captain level, possibly lower-mid captain level, at worst they are upper VC level (for all we know, they coulda been POS VCs back in the day like Omaeda is now)

Ex-Captain Vizards are mid-upper captain level, possibly upper, but possibly mid captain level at the same time.

To sum my opinion up:
Upper VC<=Ex-VC Vizard<=Mid Captain
Mid Captain<=Ex-Captain Vizard<=Upper Captain

kkck
July 15, 2009, 01:56 PM
This is my take:

Before getting hollow powers the former captains were at least average captain level, which is to say no weaker than the current gotei 13.

Risa fought alongside the former captains and was strong enough to not be in the way. In other words she was above the average VC level. As for mashiro, I have no comment other than that she was at least regular VC level. Hiyori seemed to be below average VC level though.

The thing with hachi is debatable but I would think even before he got his hollow powers he was much stronger than a VC and was actually closer to a captain.

The vizards bankai before hollow powers were just as haxed as any current captain bankai(throwing random chunks of heaven, nukes, trillions of blades, armored giants....).

The vizards without mask were capable of handling bankai hollow ichigo. The former captain required a mask when ichigo used cero but to be fair, he did not even release his sword.

Now, IMHO the boost a vizard gets from putting their mask on is at least as strong as the boost a hollow gets from getting it's mask removed. Considering what we have seen so far, the boost someone gets from putting on a mask has been more than considerable. Given what we have seen from ichigo, it would seem as if putting on a mask provides a boost in itself comparable to bankai. Ichigo is a newbie in comparison to the vizards, so perhaps the boost they get is even stronger.

Raizen
July 15, 2009, 04:19 PM
my argument most certainly does not fail.

all we haven't seen byakuya fight any really strong people. just renji, ichigo, and the 7th espada. so you can't really say how strong byakuya is anyways.

and who says that those vaizard didn't have potential? just because they weren't captain level back then? they were vc's when byakuya was a child. a CHILD.

he was not a child prodigy like gin or hitsugaya, so my argument stands.

edit: and if shinji is only as strong as shunsui then that completely defeats the purpose of these characters.

if none of them are stronger than ww or the no 1 espada then they serve no purpose. so for them to even be necessary right now some of them have to be stronger than shunsui. and ALL of the have to be stronger than byaukya and soi fon.

and to whoever said they were about soi fon's level. if that's the case then they can't even beat barragan. making they're entrance even MORE meaningless. if that's the case the best they could do is kill hallibel.
The argument that byakuya was a child and thus he is weaker thatn the vizards fail because
1- age is not really a factor
2- Byakuya is royalty and has SP higher than most
3- Look at aizen, he was probably a child when yama was a shinigami and yet his powers probably rivals yama

The Vc vizards are clearly inferior to most captains. First off, I doubt they even attained bankai. Remember that not everyone can attain bankai, no matter how much u train.

AS for being as strong as shunsui, shunsui is one of the strongest captains. Evne though he was cheap-shotted he is okay

forumsforums
July 15, 2009, 04:36 PM
The argument that byakuya was a child and thus he is weaker thatn the vizards fail because
1- age is not really a factor
2- Byakuya is royalty and has SP higher than most
3- Look at aizen, he was probably a child when yama was a shinigami and yet his powers probably rivals yama

The Vc vizards are clearly inferior to most captains. First off, I doubt they even attained bankai. Remember that not everyone can attain bankai, no matter how much u train.

AS for being as strong as shunsui, shunsui is one of the strongest captains. Evne though he was cheap-shotted he is okay

of age has some factor. potential is nice but it takes TIME to reach that potential.

and since when does royalty automatically mean strong? ganjyu was royalty too, but he was weak. his brother wasn't too strong either (he wasn't weak, but he wasn't TOO strong)

as far as aizen and yama go, yama has probably been at his limit for a long long time, so aizen has had a lot of time to reach the same level, however byakuya hasn't had that much time.

and besides, logically byakuya should not have more potential than they do. maybe BEFORE they gained vaizard powers he had more potential, but once they broke the boundaries their potential should have increased.

so, they should be stronger than byakuya.

and once again, if they are NOT. then they're pointless. and if they're pointless then so is ichigo and the entire focus of this series.

kkck
July 15, 2009, 04:59 PM
Ganju was weak only in comparison to anyone VC and above. He could hold his ground against seated officers as he showed when he fought yumichika(he could not really keep up with yumichika and won thanks to a trick but seeing that should be enough to suggest he is on seated officers level). Now, seeing the flashback involving him and kains death, I would say he is at most 45 years old. Not nearly enough time to reach his potential. I do want to point out ganju is remarkably strong for someone who has yet to get formal training(academy for instance).
[hr]
As for byakuya vs vizards:
Byakuya currently is one of the strongest captains(with only yama, kyoraku, ukitake and unohana being stronger). He has above average mastery of every shinigami art and has great versatility in a wide variety of attacks.

Given that, I would say byakuya COULD be stronger than the vizards as long as they do not put their masks on(we really have no idea of their actual skill). The mask, being a powerup comparable or even stronger than bankai, just changes things too much.

En Yang Ji
July 15, 2009, 05:17 PM
The argument that byakuya was a child and thus he is weaker thatn the vizards fail because
1- age is not really a factor
2- Byakuya is royalty and has SP higher than most
3- Look at aizen, he was probably a child when yama was a shinigami and yet his powers probably rivals yama

The Vc vizards are clearly inferior to most captains. First off, I doubt they even attained bankai. Remember that not everyone can attain bankai, no matter how much u train.

AS for being as strong as shunsui, shunsui is one of the strongest captains. Evne though he was cheap-shotted he is okay

- Byakuya may have had more reiastu than normal shingami, but that doesn't make him stronger than the vizard VCs. Having more reiastu just speeds up his growth a bit.

- Byakuya would have to have grown a lot faster to catch up to the vizard VC. There's no way we can say for sure if Byakuya is stronger than them. The vizard VC could of been really talented, had large reiastu and had other advantages. There's basically no info on them.

- Aizen is different. Who know's who he is and how long he's been that strong. Imo he has an extremely large potential, is very experienced and is a genius, so that would explain why he's so strong.

Ozehro
July 15, 2009, 06:35 PM
hmmmm some vaizards are awesome and some I'm not interested in.
but yeah they should be pretty good overall I guess.

Onomatopoeia
July 15, 2009, 11:47 PM
If I had to make a bet I'd say that Shinji is a bit weaker then Aizen who is in turn a bit weaker then Yama. But the rest of the VZ captains are either Shunsui level or a little less. That's just pure opinion though.

kkck
July 16, 2009, 12:42 AM
I still think aizen is stronger than the vizards though. He has actual mastery of every shinigami art, he has the intelligence, the vision, the sheer raw power(stopped ichigo's bankai with a finger and sent grimmjow to his knees with reiatsu alone) and most importantly the neverfading smile which lets you know you are about to get pawned.

forumsforums
July 16, 2009, 02:06 AM
I still think aizen is stronger than the vizards though. He has actual mastery of every shinigami art, he has the intelligence, the vision, the sheer raw power(stopped ichigo's bankai with a finger and sent grimmjow to his knees with reiatsu alone) and most importantly the neverfading smile which lets you know you are about to get pawned.

i don't like to judge aizen's power level that much. obviously he is powerful that's for sure, but exactly HOW powerful he is is hard to judge.

for instance, he did send grimmjow to his knees with reiatsu, but who's to say that his power of illusion wasn't able to amplify grimmjow's senses making it seem like much more pressure than there really was?

i'm not saying he's weak, i'm just saying, he can do so much with his illusions that he doesn't even have to be super powerful, so maybe shinji really is stronger than him now.

maybe.

Stevenh1990
July 19, 2009, 10:45 PM
How would you guys rank the vizards in power ?

Eddy01741
July 19, 2009, 11:25 PM
Dang... I was just thinking of making a topic like this....

Anyways, i'm a little short on time, so I'll keep it quick (for this post at least):

1. Shinji, while he has few incredible feats (besides his cero destroying Grimmjow's cero), he is the de facto leader of the Vizards, suggesting he is strong.
2. Kensei, IIRC, he was an older captain than rose and love (they were both commented on recently have become captains), powerful hollow in the pendulum arc.
3. Love, second most recent captain back in teh pendulum arc, plus, his bare hands impaled a menos's mask, and then proceeded to tear it apart top to bottom
4. Rose, youngest of the captains.... well, yeah, pretty much that's all he's got going for him, and the singing warping thing he did to the menos.
5. Hachi, Kidou Corps VC, did Bakudou 99 part 1 without incantation, has orihime-like barrier skills.
6. Mashiro, showed some serious power with her kicks both in pendulum and in the recently menso slaughter.
7 (tie), Lisa+Hiyori, to be honest, neither of them have impressed me too much. THey both effortlessly killed a menos, both VCs back in the day, etc.


That's my ranking for now, i'll explain more when i have the itme.

seya
July 20, 2009, 05:16 AM
One question: I wonder if Aizen can have some control over their hollow part?
He seems so confident.

Foundway
July 20, 2009, 01:12 PM
I would agree with Eddy power suggestion .
Shinji the strongest and so on.

poobert
July 20, 2009, 02:21 PM
How would you guys rank the vizards in power ?

1. Shinji - He is the boss.

2. Kensei - He seems to be the brute force of the vizard.

3. Hachi - Regardless of what people say and how he acts, he was second in command to the entire kido corps. While he is not entirely suited to the front lines, he is no doubt stronger than your average captain (even before he was vizardified). He is kind of like Tsunade.

4/5 - Rose and Love. Love would probably come out on top. Rose did not impress me much, simply because I dislike the way he handled that menos. He shouldn't have to wait for someone to come to him.

6 - Lisa - Shunsui said she was strong. I believe him.

7 - Mashiro - MASHIROOOO KICK!

8 - Hiyori - I think she is the weakest of the vizard. She seems to be the loudest and so the weakest. Plus she has no redeeming features, like mashiro who could stay in vizard form for hours straight after learning how to pull out her mask.

Boagrious
July 20, 2009, 08:19 PM
All of them should have Bankai, if they don't I'll be pissed.

Raizen
July 22, 2009, 12:27 AM
I still think aizen is stronger than the vizards though. He has actual mastery of every shinigami art, he has the intelligence, the vision, the sheer raw power(stopped ichigo's bankai with a finger and sent grimmjow to his knees with reiatsu alone) and most importantly the neverfading smile which lets you know you are about to get pawned.
THat was what I was saying. Even with the hollowfication increasing their limits, the vizards may still not be stronger than someone with just shinigami limits, like aizen, yama, shunsui, uki, unohana, etc
[hr]

All of them should have Bankai, if they don't I'll be pissed.
I don't think they are required to get bankai. Just b/c they have trained for years does not mean they will have bankai. Remember byakuya saying that only a few selected individual can even achieve bankai. Personally I don;t see any of the vizards having bankai besides the captains

benelori
October 08, 2009, 06:53 AM
Not really...though I think UR right about vizard being inferior, becuz they could've been better if hougyoku was first used on them...actually urahara tried hougyoku, so they might be the result of that...and remember, hougyoku was fresh and warm back then, I'm assuming fully awakened state...I have mixed feelings about this,so excuse me if I contradicted myself...
About aizen's statement...I don't know to whom I replied back then...but I still think it's just an insult...aizen was just provoking them that's all...
Favourite: by far kensei...that wind ability was awesome,he reminds me of rambo, probably that's why I like him...
I was very curious and I liked rose until his release...he's a bit too artistic to me(reminds me of nodame cantabile which...well...I'll just keep the bashing to myself)
So basically hiyori,hacchi,rose suck IMO...shinji...well, he's to prove himself, so I'll leave him...about love...mixed feelings...I didn't really like them in the first place, but the releases made them worst...
Lisa is a okay,mashiro,too...masks look good, the zanpaktou as well...
So my ranking is:
1.Kensei
2.Lisa
3.Mashiro
4.Shinji
5.the rest

These are just impressions,random thoughts...i'll add other stuff later as other topics about vizard will appear...in a more organized fashion of course

Raizen
October 08, 2009, 03:28 PM
most overrated characters in Bleach.
exactly, when they were introduced, everyone was like oh they are going to pwned the espadas, and look. Even with 2 against 1, starks beat them. People even say ridiculous things like all of the vizards should be close to old yama and even stronger. Hilarious. Vizards are weak, masks or not.

Even as past captains, they did nothing that impressed me. They got owned by tousen in one move. LAME

poobert
October 08, 2009, 03:30 PM
most overrated characters in Bleach.

And until a few weeks ago, rightly so. They were the next step in the evolution of shinigami. They were better than shinigami. Aizen's entire goal was to become one. They were the opposite of the mighty espada, the number 6 of which was stronger by far than Ichigo when he first appears. They had their own back story.....

How were we to know Kubo was going to make them suck?

In a few short chapters, we are back to where we were right after the SS arc :(

En Yang Ji
October 08, 2009, 03:49 PM
exactly, when they were introduced, everyone was like oh they are going to pwned the espadas, and look. Even with 2 against 1, starks beat them. People even say ridiculous things like all of the vizards should be close to old yama and even stronger. Hilarious. Vizards are weak, masks or not.

Even as past captains, they did nothing that impressed me. They got owned by tousen in one move. LAME

Starrk didn't beat them, neither of them used bankai.

kkck
October 08, 2009, 03:52 PM
exactly, when they were introduced, everyone was like oh they are going to pwned the espadas, and look. Even with 2 against 1, starks beat them. People even say ridiculous things like all of the vizards should be close to old yama and even stronger. Hilarious. Vizards are weak, masks or not.

Even as past captains, they did nothing that impressed me. They got owned by tousen in one move. LAME

We do not know if the former captains could have defeated starrk though. Love did stop starrk's cero like if they were nothing and he did not even use his mask and he did trash starrk and a good deal of kK one the mask was on. Not to mention the vizards did not use bankai. I would think at least love would be able to defeat starrk had he used bankai and mask....

Raizen
October 08, 2009, 03:54 PM
We do not know if the former captains could have defeated starrk though. Love did stop starrk's cero like if they were nothing and he did not even use his mask and he did trash starrk and a good deal of kK one the mask was on. Not to mention the vizards did not use bankai. I would think at least love would be able to defeat starrk had he used bankai and mask....
Starks being hit by love was only b/c he was distracted. That is what starks other half sd (forgot her name)
And maybe they can beat him, but starks was clearly confident that he could kill them both, so there is also that

kkck
October 08, 2009, 04:16 PM
Starks being hit by love was only b/c he was distracted. That is what starks other half sd (forgot her name)
And maybe they can beat him, but starks was clearly confident that he could kill them both, so there is also that

I don't know if starrk's show of confidence really meant that much though. I mean, clearly at that stage he had the advantage and it was the former vizards on the defensive but that does not mean he was the absolute winner. In any case, we really can't know at least until we see more of the vizards power....

Trotter
October 08, 2009, 07:05 PM
When Starrk took that hit from Love, he had no phys damage on his body other then a bump on the head, and with his mask he was able to cause quite a bit of destruction but...missed. Starrk was not only too fast for either Love or Rose to land a hit on, but the wolf attacks were crushing them easily, and Starrk was even holding back so that he didn't kill them.

Starrk. Would. Have. Won. No matter what [I doubt their bankais gave them the power to just up and destroy Starrk]

ganjabuss
October 09, 2009, 04:52 AM
i dont think vaizards are weak...they are opposite of arrancar if anything they should be stronger if not equal...as hollow cant get stronger by training,they have to fight, eat others.... losing means loss of life or get eaten, once part of them is eaten/injured severely they cant evolve anymore but shinigami with proper training can achieve bankai...injuries from fight doesn't stop them from getting stronger...5th seat or above shinigami's hollow form will be adjuchas class to begin with...

i think vaizards didn't push themselves hard enough this last 100 years...only kensei and shinji has helmet type masks...others' masks are the same old plain masks...if we see ichigo's development...it's obvious they need to fight all out and expand their power after becoming vaizards....as they had just broken shinigami-hollow barrier...ichigo obviously had advantage from being in HM and Orihime's healing...but still they had 100 years to develop their powers...when ichigo was training to lengthen mask time they had him fighting hiyori[who is most likely the weakest among them]...plus she was more like having fun with him rather than fighting[with a sealed sword]...when they needed to push him to his limit...which leads me to the conclusion of they not fighting/training hard enough...as they are friends they didn't push each other too hard[lest they are hurt badly or even killed] so that they can expand their powers...ichigo on the other hand expanded his power by fighting in real life and death situations...urahara said when ichigo was training to regain his shinigami powers that 'spirit power increases most easily when u r in danger of being terminated'..i think that's why there is so much difference in power and development...

my vaizard ranking...[without ichigo...obviously he'll come up on top by the time he gets back from HM]
1. shinji[he is obviously their leader,others surely wouldn't follow him if he wasn't the strongest]
2. kensei[he also has a helmet type mask]
3. love
4. rose
5. lisa
6. mashiro
7. hacchi[he isn't a proper fighter using zan, but he showed serious badass kido abilities, depending on opponent's type he might come up at 5]
8. hiyori[weakest, most impulsive, most annoying of them all]

Eddy01741
October 09, 2009, 12:54 PM
When Starrk took that hit from Love, he had no phys damage on his body other then a bump on the head, and with his mask he was able to cause quite a bit of destruction but...missed. Starrk was not only too fast for either Love or Rose to land a hit on, but the wolf attacks were crushing them easily, and Starrk was even holding back so that he didn't kill them.

Starrk. Would. Have. Won. No matter what [I doubt their bankais gave them the power to just up and destroy Starrk]

So your saying that two abilities that are supposed to make Rose and Love 5-10 times stronger (each) couldn't possibly tip the scales in their favor?

Please, wait to see their bankais before you write them off.

Overall though, I do agree, they were overrated and are underperforming. Hachi's the only one that's showed any skill so far, kind of mashiro as well (fura owned with one kick and all). But it looks like Kensei is getting serious, so we'll see more.

Richo
October 10, 2009, 04:37 PM
At this point in the manga Kubo has only shown us how weak and vurnarable the vizards realy are.
Some of the vizards are already criticaily injured or incapable of doing their own speciality at this time (hiyori nearly dead, mashiro beated, Hachi lost half a arm, other vizards are already exhausted). The vizards try to rely on their hollow powers first then on their shinigami powers (understandable cause they all loathe the shinigami), their own pride is holding them back.
If some of the vizards actualy realised how strong their enemies where they wouldn't be in this state and wouldnt be hated by the fans at this time. I am sad because kubo actualy downgraded the vizards to "wannabee arrancar" wich at this moment they are: a weaker version of the arrancar.
However we have yet to witness the more experienced captains among the vizards (kensei the physically strongest among the vizards, Shinji being unoffical leader and probably the all rounded captain).

So in the nxt few chapters i am expecting a make up for the vizards showing how capable they actualy are with hollow masks and the combinations they learned during the last 100 years.

Forever_Melody
October 12, 2009, 10:00 PM
I actually did find it interesting that the Vizards rely more on their hollow powers before their shinigami powers. In this sense, they are the opposite of Ichigo, who uses his shinigami powers first and uses his hollow powers if that's not enough.

I find Richo's analysis of their pride a decent explanation although Hachi still uses Kidou(albeit his own version) as his primary weapon/ I'm starting to think Kubo simply wanted to showcase the "Vizard-ness"(for lack of a better word) of the Vizard i.e. he wanted to show fighters who differed from the Shinigami, not just super-powered Shinigami.

At this point I'm also interested in the higher level Vizards. We've seen 3 captain level Vizards fight so far(excluding the hollow masks): Love, Rose & Kensei. Out of these, only Kensei went Bankai and we've yet to see how good that is(let alone what happens when he puts on the mask).

I do however agree that Kubo seems to have downplayed the Vizards a bit in the last few chapters.

zerocooldx
October 17, 2009, 11:52 PM
Honestly other than Shinji and Kensei, and possibly even Love, the rest seem to be pretty meh.

Random101
October 18, 2009, 01:42 AM
Lisa get's a pass in my book, purely because she has interaction with Shunsui, and uses a spear, which is my preferred weapon class. Not due to any actual merits of her own to say the least. Shinji, Kensei, and MAYBE Hachi after that, but beyond that the rest, save Hiyori, are the one's I'd purge. Hiyori only getting by, just barely, because she's one of the more characterized Vizards, sad as it is, and the thing with that previous captain of hers may become important.

kkck
October 18, 2009, 02:02 AM
Well, clearly as hybrids they are inferior to the arrancar and probably ichigo. That in itself takes a lot from them. It would also explain why a bunch of espada out of whom most apparently were adjuca managed to overpower the vizards.

I do want to point out they are a force to be reconned with. The 4 former captains were at the very least at the average captain level before turning into arrancar so add in incomplete hybrid powers and you got a beast. Hiyori seems to be the weakest of the vizards but she along hitsugaya and lisa held her ground against harribel so she can't be that bad. Lisa is probably just below the captain level with her mask on. Hachi is not really the fighting type(as he said) but he still has quite interesting kido. I do hope the vizards somehow improve their quality as hybrids in the future though.

Random101
October 18, 2009, 02:38 AM
Define what Arrancar, because frankly the high level Espada were getting their butts kicked by regular captains in quite a few cases. Overall combat potential, quite a few would kick the asses of at the very least most of the espada to be frank... >>

ganjabuss
October 18, 2009, 03:15 AM
i think vaizards will improve...i remember kubo saying next arc will concentrate more on the vaizards...anyway i dont think they are inferior but didn't do much to improve in last 100 years...i think once they see ichigo's development...they'll realise they can improve further...only thing i'm disappointed abt is love and rose not having helmet type mask like shinji and kensei....they were captains they should have improved more in 100 years...

aizen saying they are psuedo-arrancar doesn't mean much...he used hogyoku on hollows...didn't use on any shinigami[unless they used it on themselves]...so IMO he don't know shit about vaizards or their powers...he is just trying to provoke them...

vaizards are superior to arrancars in my opinion...shinigamis have more possibility of achieving 'second release' than arrancars[only one shown so far..ulq]...most arrancars lose their zanpukto after first release...hollows lose their chance to evolve if a part of them gets eaten or seriously injured...vaizards/shinigami's don't have that problem...
ichigonator crushed ulqs strongest attack with his bare hand...

vaizards>>>arrancars IMO
we've yet to see a vaizard ex-captain fight with full power...shinji has yet to release his zanpukto...kensei has released but we didn't see him fight...love and rose didn't fight to the end, shunsui interfered...we saw ichigo fight...he has shown arrancars are inferior...i think we should reserve judgment abt other vaizards until we see kensei vs. wonderweiss...

kkck
October 18, 2009, 03:33 AM
Define what Arrancar, because frankly the high level Espada were getting their butts kicked by regular captains in quite a few cases. Overall combat potential, quite a few would kick the asses of at the very least most of the espada to be frank... >>

Well, starrk did overpower love and rose and the two were using mask and shikai. Either of them could have had a shot at winning had they gone bankai though. I do agree in that at least the former captains would be able to defeat most espada in a direct confrontation though.

Now, I simply mentioned the vizards as hybrids were inferior to the espada and most hyogoku arrancar as hybrids. This basically means the boost the vizards get is not a great as the boost the arrancar receive from their respective hybridization process.

Forever_Melody
October 18, 2009, 10:48 PM
I don't think the Vizards are inferior in any way. The only reason they'd be inferior is because their transformation wasn't "accelerated" by Hougyouku(but I'm not quite certain if Urahara used it on them in the flashback chapters so this may actually be a moot point). If you want to compare them, compare them to "natural" arrancars like Nell or such.

I mean, Love basically created a HUGE after effect from one Shikai attack. While it is a bit clumsy(Starrk was able to evade without much trouble it seems), I don't recall ever seeing that much brute power from a Shikai before. And that's just shikai too :blink IMO, the mask seems to give a decent power boost.

I'd also say the captain class Vizards are the ones who IMO have something to show. Love, Rose, Shinji and Kensei namely are the ones to look out for.

Mifune_Taichou
February 03, 2010, 03:05 PM
I started this thread to discuss the Vaizard phenomenon.

They were so ridiculously hyped up, and yet on current form (not having seen Kensei fight and the hachi fight being purely deus ex machina) They really, really massively SUCK. Let's see:

Hyori-one shotted like a tard by Gin
Love-One shotted and made to look like a fool by Aizen, after getting tossed around by Starrk, a guy who died to a shikai.
Rose-same as above but made to look like and even BIGGER fool by Aizen. Also Aizen tanked his overcompensatory shikai with no ill effects.
Lisa-utterly useless just like Hyori, but at least she got owned by Aizen and not Gin and not quite so stupidly.
Mashiro-at least she got a half decent kill in fura, and tossed WW around a lot. she seems to be the stronegest of the VC vaizards and i'm looking forward to her maybe owning someone weaker than WW with her mask AND Zan. But so far she's still been crap.

Shinji is epic enough to redeem them all, but seriously his comrades are embarassing. I reckon Ichigo and him could prolly take them on in twos and threes at this rate and we know ichigo is made of suck.

Kensei I really hope will redeem them somewhat. We shall see. What are your guys' thoughts? Why do they suck so much? Did we just overhype them?

P.S. LOL massively at the guy who said Hyori is better than Yama-stupider words have never been uttered on this forum imo.

Revolation
February 03, 2010, 03:30 PM
I started this thread to discuss the Vaizard phenomenon.

They were so ridiculously hyped up, and yet on current form (not having seen Kensei fight and the hachi fight being purely deus ex machina) They really, really massively SUCK. Let's see:

Hyori-one shotted like a tard by Gin
Love-One shotted and made to look like a fool by Aizen, after getting tossed around by Starrk, a guy who died to a shikai.
Rose-same as above but made to look like and even BIGGER fool by Aizen. Also Aizen tanked his overcompensatory shikai with no ill effects.
Lisa-utterly useless just like Hyori, but at least she got owned by Aizen and not Gin and not quite so stupidly.
Mashiro-at least she got a half decent kill in fura, and tossed WW around a lot. she seems to be the stronegest of the VC vaizards and i'm looking forward to her maybe owning someone weaker than WW with her mask AND Zan. But so far she's still been crap.

Shinji is epic enough to redeem them all, but seriously his comrades are embarassing. I reckon Ichigo and him could prolly take them on in twos and threes at this rate and we know ichigo is made of suck.

Kensei I really hope will redeem them somewhat. We shall see. What are your guys' thoughts? Why do they suck so much? Did we just overhype them?

P.S. LOL massively at the guy who said Hyori is better than Yama-stupider words have never been uttered on this forum imo.

yes overhyping is involved,

two: they are hollow related and as arceus says, kubo hates hollows

three: they aren't really plotkai-able

four: too many characters to make own
five: the are apparently arrancar wannabees, even though the espada sucked and they were supposed to be top arrancar

conn-man
February 03, 2010, 03:31 PM
i just said this in the disscusion but i'll say it here again since its more relavent. im sure that when the vizard use mask and bankai at the same time they will be a lot more dangerous, kensei should confirm this since he probably will use this combo agains wonderwiess.

your right though, love and rose are really sucking especially since it seems they just refuse to use masks against aizen!

kkck
February 03, 2010, 04:55 PM
I don't think the vizards were that much of a fail lol. Shinji is the first one to ever wipe the smug on aizen's face. He "almost" actually surprised aizen. Note he only used shikai, he didn't even use mask for that. Love without a mask made short work of starrk's guns and was actually the one who forced him to go all out. Love somehow got in the middle of that fight but he didn't do much anyways. It was thanks to them that shunsui managed to close the distance between himself and starrk which apparently helped him avoid the wolves though. In all fairness towards rose and love, their hollowification is significantly less powerful than that of an arrancar -same goes for the vizards-. Love forced starrk to go all out with just shikai and mask, most of the other captains would have at least needed bankai for such a thing. Not to mention neither love or rose used bankai against starrk which means both of them were a tad far from going all out. Personally I don't think any of the former vizard captains are overall weaker than the gotei 13 without a mask (I am saying this as a general thing, I don't actually mean they could match the top captains without a mask or with it). Their bankai and mask would probably have done more than serious damage to any of the espada ) with the exception of barragan who was rather hard to approach.

Hiyori and liza were just VC before hollowification. It makes sense they haven't tanked through anything. Using mask they would at most reach a captains most basic power level which isn't saying much these days. In all fairness, both hiyori and lisa did remarkably well fighting harribel, I honestly didn't think either of them would last long against her even when double teaming her.

benelori
February 03, 2010, 06:03 PM
I don't think they are such a big fail in their entirety...I don't like rose, though he seems pretty useless, and the VC's are VC's...expected more of lisa though, but I'll stop here since is not the spoiler thread...hiyori...whatever...
Love is good...he is powerful, but he is more like physical power rather than "true" power lol...
Shinji and Kensei are the best...
But as kkck said...the captains have their bankai, and masks...certain people's hollowfication could be weaker than Mashiro's for example...she is great as well...
But nobody mentioned hacchi...he is skilled, not that much of a failure IMO...
So I think the vizards are not fail

exacta
February 03, 2010, 08:06 PM
Love is actually somewhat impressive. His strength is pretty sick, he was able to rip a Menos in half with his hands. And he could smash away Stark's cero's with just his shikai. Shunsui can't do either of the above. Shunsui did beat Stark, but that's because he fights dirty(which is awesome), and because Stark got distracted. They probably didn't need him though, they both still had Bankais up their sleeves....

Yes, Hiyori got crapped on. Mashiro deserves credit, and so does Hacchi, for having awesome barriers and having powers that can defeat Barragan when it doesn't really seem like anybody else could defeat him. Rose has gotten crapped on a little too.

Shinji looks quite badass.
When you get down to it, Hacchi was impressive in his fight against Barragan, Love was impressive for the first half of his fight with Stark, and Lisa and Hiyori didn't get a real fight with Halibel.

Putting that aside, all that's left is their fight with Aizen. I pretty much excuse anyone who gets owned by Aizen. You got to remember that strategy is what's being used against Aizen, by themselves, all of these guys would get owned. They haven't gotten enough attention yet.....Kubo better make Love and Rose look better in the future though.They got damaged badly from Stark, so it's possible right now they can't use their masks, like Ichigo after his fight with Grimmjow. That would explain going up against Aizen without their masks, because thats the only reason that makes sense.I don't care about Hiyori, her shikai sucks. It's design looks so plain. I'm pretty sure that you could see a couple of swords looking exactly like it in Ichigo's fight with Zangetsu. It probably has no abilities either.

Kensei's still fighting.Granted, he's fighting Wonderweiss, and if Wonderweiss also turns out to be ridiculously strong,he'll likely lose, and then I won't be too hard on him either. But I would like to see him at least make the kid release.

Xerneas
February 04, 2010, 08:09 AM
No I agree with Mifune that Vizards are (almost) totally fail. Someone made the point in the current chapter discussion that their whole introduction was a waste, and really, a joke. They got so hyped: multiple double page spreads, whole chapter destroying Gillians - making non-senior Captains and VC go "OMG they are so strong!". The situation was intended to show them as saviours, given that Aizen had a big advantage at that point. But no, instead they turn out to be useless (Hiyori/Lisa) or incompetent (Love/Rose) and the same Captains that were hyping them....put them to shame. /facepalm

Having said all of that, I'm sorry, but I want Kensei to die. Arrancars have had it even worse, at least the Vizards have Shinji and Ichigo to save some pride. There is no way Kubo should introduce a Vasto Lorde, which have almost become legendary at this stage, without doing something seriously epic. Ukitake getting a hole punched in him, which will no doubt be healed, doesn't do it for me. Besides, Kensei is the one that gets everything shown off first, so he should die first.

Overall, Vizards bore me to hell. At least with Arrancar Kubo went crazy with the designs. Plus they have interesting abilities. All of the Espada except Nnoitra had interesting powers. With Vizards its the always the same crap - strength, speed, fail Ceros, blah. Ichigonator was boring because of this, he should have displayed a new Getsuga Tenshou or something. The trend seems to be changing I guess with what we saw from Kaname. His design was hideous but strangely good at the same time - better than some boring mask. And the soundwave attack was cool. I hope the likes of Gin/Aizen/whoever do the same...with prettier designs lol.

exacta
February 04, 2010, 11:32 AM
No I agree with Mifune that Vizards are (almost) totally fail. Someone made the point in the current chapter discussion that their whole introduction was a waste, and really, a joke. They got so hyped: multiple double page spreads, whole chapter destroying Gillians - making non-senior Captains and VC go "OMG they are so strong!". The situation was intended to show them as saviours, given that Aizen had a big advantage at that point. But no, instead they turn out to be useless (Hiyori/Lisa) or incompetent (Love/Rose) and the same Captains that were hyping them....put them to shame. /facepalm

Having said all of that, I'm sorry, but I want Kensei to die. Arrancars have had it even worse, at least the Vizards have Shinji and Ichigo to save some pride. There is no way Kubo should introduce a Vasto Lorde, which have almost become legendary at this stage, without doing something seriously epic. Ukitake getting a hole punched in him, which will no doubt be healed, doesn't do it for me. Besides, Kensei is the one that gets everything shown off first, so he should die first.

Overall, Vizards bore me to hell. At least with Arrancar Kubo went crazy with the designs. Plus they have interesting abilities. All of the Espada except Nnoitra had interesting powers. With Vizards its the always the same crap - strength, speed, fail Ceros, blah. Ichigonator was boring because of this, he should have displayed a new Getsuga Tenshou or something. The trend seems to be changing I guess with what we saw from Kaname. His design was hideous but strangely good at the same time - better than some boring mask. And the soundwave attack was cool. I hope the likes of Gin/Aizen/whoever do the same...with prettier designs lol.

Only captain that stole the show from them was Shunsui, and Love and Rose gave him the perfect opening anyway. That's really the Vizards only real failure. Hacchi did save Soifon's ass, and Lisa and Hiyori kinda saved Hitsu too. Getting owned by Aizen doesn't count, and the VC Vizard are obviously much stronger than the Gotei 13 VC, even though they did little. Mashiro was able to handle an unreleased Wonderweiss with just her mask, and she only lost because she overused it. Probably wouldn'tve won, but Wonderweiss one shotted Ukitake. Since people seem so hostile towards the Vizard, I'm surprised no one started saying Mashiro >Ukitake and that Ukitake is an epic fail or some other stupid crap. The Vizards do have shikai you know, not even half of them have actually used a cero.....I actually thought some of their releases were pretty interesting....

Mifune_Taichou
February 04, 2010, 12:21 PM
Only captain that stole the show from them was Shunsui, and Love and Rose gave him the perfect opening anyway. That's really the Vizards only real failure. Hacchi did save Soifon's ass, and Lisa and Hiyori kinda saved Hitsu too. Getting owned by Aizen doesn't count, and the VC Vizard are obviously much stronger than the Gotei 13 VC, even though they did little. Mashiro was able to handle an unreleased Wonderweiss with just her mask, and she only lost because she overused it. Probably wouldn'tve won, but Wonderweiss one shotted Ukitake. Since people seem so hostile towards the Vizard, I'm surprised no one started saying Mashiro >Ukitake and that Ukitake is an epic fail or some other stupid crap. The Vizards do have shikai you know, not even half of them have actually used a cero.....I actually thought some of their releases were pretty interesting....

Lol Lisa and Hyori did not save Hitsu-that's just a ridiculous statement imo. Not only had he just crushed Hallibell without getting a scratch on him and as you can see he still has plenty left in the tank, but it's folly to say two trash characters saved a much stronger character in a shounen. Based on what they have shown and off the fact that Lisa and hyori clearly do not have bankai, I am confident he could fight and defeat them both at once (the same applies to all captains, even Komammura imo).

Hachi did ok, however him doing ok consited exclusively of having the specifi asspull power required to defeat barragan-a power which was not hinted at or even logical in any way. In the way of his usual strenght, Barragan tottally dominated him. In fact the only one doing any damage to Barragan was Soi Fon, if Hachi did not have his asspull teleport ability he would have been unable to harm Barragan in the slightest.

Love and Rose may have beaten starrk in bankai, we will never know. Yes beating ceros away with an overcompensatory club is somewhat impressive, but I was more impressed by the fact shunsui tanked a direct cero to the back and it did NOTHING. Plus he had the power to take down starrk with his shikai which BOTH of them combined could not do. Teh only reason Starrk was still alive when they came was because Shunsui's sword wasn't "up for it" apparently. Plus Shunsui owned them verbally horribly-do you rememebr when he essentially said they are unfit to be captains. Oh how I agree.

Yes being owned by Aizen means nothing but they didn;t get owned-they were humiliated, made to look like complete fools. All in all, they seem horribly inept. My guess is they became captains thorugh comunicating with their sword well, achieving bankai and having sufficent reiatsu-but on this evidence their skills pale in comparison to the skills of the Gotei 13 captains we have now.

Kensei is a wildcard, he looks to be much better than the FailTwins but there is yet time for Kubo to crap on him.

Shinji is just awesomeness in human form.

Eddy01741
February 04, 2010, 04:21 PM
Some are fail, others are decent, nobody is amazing. Maybe it's just Kubo showing his pro-shinigami/anti-hollow bias.

Hiyori+Lisa pretty much fail.

Hachi won on basically a plotkai (if Kubo had explained that such a thing was possible (the transfer of respira from one being to another, and teleportation)) then it wouldn't have been so much of an asspull.

Mashiro killed Fura, better than either Lisa or Hiyori could say.

Kensei we have no idea about, he's fighting wonderweiss, whose power we do not know at this time.

Shinji, well, I'm going to avoid all this rediculous hype for shinji and just say this: I'm not that impressed. Sure, he got a cut on Aizen, then Aizen owned him. Shinji has done nothing else thus far besides in the TBTP arc where similarly, he got owned by Aizen. Can't say more till the end of this weekend due to the weekend spoiler rule.

kkck
February 04, 2010, 05:05 PM
Tessai used teleportation before though. He used it to get the former captains from an undisclosed apparently distant location of the rugokai into urahara's lab. Don't know if this counts but grimmjow also had caja negacion which basically transported ulquiorra into another dimension. Teleportation has been seen a couple of times, it just the application hachi gave it was unheard of(putting his eroding arm in contact with barragans body).

Exodi
February 04, 2010, 08:54 PM
The thing that Hacchi did against Barragan was the same thing he did against a bunch of the Menos Grandes when the Visoreds first appeared. Against Barragan he used his own arm instead of a giant Menos head, and he added teleportation, which, as kkck pointed out, is entirely possible and has been done before. So....I don't see why that is plotkai at all.


I will agree that Hiyori is pretty much complete fail in this fight. Impatience led her to her doom. I'm pretty sure she's the WORST injured out of everyone. Poor thing.

Rose and Love.....should probably go bankai or something if they want to not be owned anymore than they already have. We know they're supposed to have bankai because they were both Captains.... Maybe Kubo wants to save them for another time/arc/fight?

Lisa....I still like her, but she hasn't done anything impressive.

Mashiro killed Fura, and held her own against Wonderweiss for awhile. She gets an A for effort.

Kensei.....I wonder how his fight is going with Wonderweiss. Kensei seems to be the strongest, under Shinji. Or maybe above him.

El Samurai Guapo
February 04, 2010, 09:22 PM
Love and Rose may have beaten starrk in bankai, we will never know. Yes beating ceros away with an overcompensatory club is somewhat impressive, but I was more impressed by the fact shunsui tanked a direct cero to the back and it did NOTHING.

So what, that was just an ordinary cero. It's not like those ceros where anywhere near as strong as the spirit wolves. As a matter of fact, Starrk himself told Love and Rose that his ordinary ceros would not be able to harm guys as strong as them. So there you go.


Plus he had the power to take down starrk with his shikai which BOTH of them combined could not do. Teh only reason Starrk was still alive when they came was because Shunsui's sword wasn't "up for it" apparently.


Only because he managed to get inside Starrk's shadow while he was distracted. Just like he did against Aizen, he obviously needs his opponent to be distracted in order for that to work. I would have like to see how Shunsui, or any other captain would have dealt with those seemingly unstoppable wolves with nothing but their shikai. Genryusai-sensei is obviously an exception to this.

Rainl
February 04, 2010, 11:22 PM
I would have like to see how Shunsui, or any other captain would have dealt with those seemingly unstoppable wolves with nothing but their shikai.

Shunsui has the ability to essentially hide his presence completely within shadows. The wolves wouldn't have mattered considering Starrk wouldn't have known Shunsui's location anyway to utilize them.

He would basically be a sitting duck until Shunsui surprised him exactly how he did in the manga.

Where did you get the idea that his opponent had to be distracted for him to use them? Absolutely not. It's just it makes for a great technique when the opponent is distracted, it isn't a necessity it's a preference. That doesn't say he's incapable of doing while he's fighting his opponent, not at all.

This is aside from the fact that it's now been shown in the recent chapter that Shunsui can basically be in the shadow of any object that produces one, not just his opponents.

El Samurai Guapo
February 04, 2010, 11:52 PM
Shunsui has the ability to essentially hide his presence completely within shadows. The wolves wouldn't have mattered considering Starrk wouldn't have known Shunsui's location anyway to utilize them.

He would basically be a sitting duck until Shunsui surprised him exactly how he did in the manga.

That's not how Shunsui's shikai works, he can't just hide in any shadow and then come out of Starrk's. He has to step into Starrk's own shadow before he can use kage oni.


This is aside from the fact that it's now been shown in the recent chapter that Shunsui can basically be in the shadow of any object that produces one, not just his opponents.
No he can't, he was obviously inside Aizen's shadow.

Zehahaha
February 05, 2010, 11:07 AM
Aizen said it himself : They're a failure. So since the Flashback arc, i knew that the Vizards aren't that strong, they use the mask which boost their speed, power, and give them access to Cero, that's all... They're not the perfect hybrid, so they're pretty much in the same level as the Captains...

That's why, i've never expected anything from them... At least not something like " I'll use my Hollow power and i'll kick your damn a** with one fuckin' Cero hehaaaaaah ! "

They're Captain level, that's all, nothing much nothing less

En Yang Ji
February 05, 2010, 12:27 PM
Imo Kubo made them "fake arrancur", so he can make them stronger, "complete arrancurs" later on. The vizards are Ichigo's crew, so they are going to have to get stronger with him, to take on stronger enemies.

kkck
February 05, 2010, 01:26 PM
Aizen said it himself : They're a failure. So since the Flashback arc, i knew that the Vizards aren't that strong, they use the mask which boost their speed, power, and give them access to Cero, that's all... They're not the perfect hybrid, so they're pretty much in the same level as the Captains...

That's why, i've never expected anything from them... At least not something like " I'll use my Hollow power and i'll kick your damn a** with one fuckin' Cero hehaaaaaah ! "

They're Captain level, that's all, nothing much nothing less

While I do think the vizards are not nearly as advanced as aizen's arrancars I do think the vizards are being a tad underestimated. IMHO the vizards without hollow powers already are in the same league as the current gotei 13 (obviously just the former captains and this being a general statement). Even if their hollowification is not that powerful in comparison to the arrancar, it has still shown to be useful to say the least. Love forced starrk to go all out with just shikai and mask. This is just my opinion but without the mask odds are he would have needed at least bankai for such a thing-as would be the case for any captain except the top 3-4). Mashiro did spectacularly against WW (even though WW is kind of a wildacard of varying random power). Still, the difference in power between using and not using the mask is evident in that fight.

Richo
February 05, 2010, 01:39 PM
Aizen said it himself : They're a failure. So since the Flashback arc, i knew that the Vizards aren't that strong, they use the mask which boost their speed, power, and give them access to Cero, that's all... They're not the perfect hybrid, so they're pretty much in the same level as the Captains...

That's why, i've never expected anything from them... At least not something like " I'll use my Hollow power and i'll kick your damn a** with one fuckin' Cero hehaaaaaah ! "

They're Captain level, that's all, nothing much nothing less

this makes alot of sense. No vizard untill now has shown to be able to transform in a "hollow form" like tousen has shown us. All the vizard have shown us untill now is that they use their hollow masks and augment them with their shinigami powers, they have made clear the hate shinigami previously. Tousen was the first one to be shown that has been transformed fully with the use of hougyoku (with the intention of making a hybrid). Tousen has shown us multiply stages of hollow transformations the first being the hollow mask and the second being a full transformation wich besides Tousen only and ichigo performed (at this point).
Ichigo has shown us 2 stages of hollow transformation at this point where 1 of the 2 will be used quite soon as ichigo his next step into developing his vizard powers.

The vizards are all very strong, they not show so strong due to their enemy (its Aizen come on!?). They are all probably stronger then most other captain even with their hollow powers.
Also recently a "perfect" hybrid got killed by a Captain and a exhausted VC.

Finaly we must keep in mind that the transformation into a vizard/arrancar was said to have unlimited potential. All who have undergone this process grew strong with time and I believe the hougyoku isnt something that makes a perfect hybrid. It will probably give the potential for attaining this nothing more.

Xerneas
February 05, 2010, 01:52 PM
The Hogyoku completely destroys the barrier between Shinigami/Hollow. If thats not hybrid perfection, then I don't know what is. Ichigo is just "special" or whatever because he's the main character. The Vizards will never advance because they were infected by some unknown virus and when the Hogyoku was used it only seemed to stabalize their condition and nothing else. I'm not sure it did even that, cause Urahara said he failed.

Even though they've been generally incompetent, I wouldn't write off Love and Rose completely yet. The former was rather impressive against Starrk, all things considered and Rose...well yeah he's been pathetic. But there must be a reason Kubo is going through so much trouble to hide their Ban Kai's right? If they were true trash like Komamura, he would have shown those off already.

Raizen
February 05, 2010, 03:15 PM
this makes alot of sense. No vizard untill now has shown to be able to transform in a "hollow form" like tousen has shown us. All the vizard have shown us untill now is that they use their hollow masks and augment them with their shinigami powers, they have made clear the hate shinigami previously. Tousen was the first one to be shown that has been transformed fully with the use of hougyoku (with the intention of making a hybrid). Tousen has shown us multiply stages of hollow transformations the first being the hollow mask and the second being a full transformation wich besides Tousen only and ichigo performed (at this point).
Ichigo has shown us 2 stages of hollow transformation at this point where 1 of the 2 will be used quite soon as ichigo his next step into developing his vizard powers.

The vizards are all very strong, they not show so strong due to their enemy (its Aizen come on!?). They are all probably stronger then most other captain even with their hollow powers.
Also recently a "perfect" hybrid got killed by a Captain and a exhausted VC.

Finaly we must keep in mind that the transformation into a vizard/arrancar was said to have unlimited potential. All who have undergone this process grew strong with time and I believe the hougyoku isnt something that makes a perfect hybrid. It will probably give the potential for attaining this nothing more.
What exactly have they shown that made them stronger than any of the current captains?
Love and Rose got owned completely and they weren't even in a shape as bad as soifon. So far they have a track record as bad as komamura. All through the starks vs shunsui fight, starks kept sommenting on how strong shunsui was. Yet, not once did he state the strength of the vizards, even after fighting 2 of them at a time. He was even confident that he could finish them. Rose and Love are fail.

The vizards so far were all pathetic aside from shinji and maybe hacchi (not commenting kensei since we have not seen him fight). Before they attained hollow powers, the vizards were all low class captains IMO. They all got taken out w/ a single attack by tousen. How pathetic

kkck
February 05, 2010, 03:32 PM
I don't think the tousen thing shows weakness in the least. The vizards took a surprise attack from a bankai from someone who is supposed to be an ally. Not to mention the person in question is very well within the boundaries of the captain level. Not everyone can tank through that like kempachi can....

Raizen
February 05, 2010, 03:47 PM
I don't think the tousen thing shows weakness in the least. The vizards took a surprise attack from a bankai from someone who is supposed to be an ally. Not to mention the person in question is very well within the boundaries of the captain level. Not everyone can tank through that like kempachi can....
Tousen's bankai as far as i can see doesn't make him stronger, it just gives him the element of surprise through the darkness. What i was focusing on was how they got knocked out by 1 attack.
Byakuya took damage against ichi and still took an attack from gin and wasn't on te ground dead.
Shunsui took a blank shot cero from the top espada and it did nothing to him
those are just some examples of true vulnerability

kkck
February 05, 2010, 04:06 PM
Tousen's bankai as far as i can see doesn't make him stronger, it just gives him the element of surprise through the darkness. What i was focusing on was how they got knocked out by 1 attack.
Byakuya took damage against ichi and still took an attack from gin and wasn't on te ground dead.
Shunsui took a blank shot cero from the top espada and it did nothing to him
those are just some examples of true vulnerability

Element of surprise?darkness? Isn't that kind of an understatement? Besides, they were already considerably beating up from fighting kensei which added to the damage. I also don't think it matters how many attacks they took. They were caught in one of the more haxed abilities around and tousen dealt reasonably deep wounds against captains who have not been pointed out to be particularly resistant to injuries (as was kempachi). The blank cero didn't do much damage either-it is not meaningless though-. Even starrk admitted it wouldn't do much damage to this very people.

En Yang Ji
February 05, 2010, 06:20 PM
- The fact that the vizards could even hold their own against Starrk shows their strong. Shunsui beating Starrk shikai, and Starrk saying he can beat both of them doesn't mean their weak.

- Shunsui's win against Starrk, with his shikai is conditional. If Starrk decided to use a different weapon, wasn't cheap shot'ed by Shunsui when Love and Rose fighting him, and Shunsui didn't get the right game, the whole battle would of been a lot different.

- Starrk thinking he can beat the both Love and Rose doesn't mean anything, except he was confident. There are a lot of other people in the manga who were confident they would win and they lost. Love dismissed what Starrk said as soon as he said it.

Raizen
February 05, 2010, 06:41 PM
Element of surprise?darkness? Isn't that kind of an understatement? Besides, they were already considerably beating up from fighting kensei which added to the damage. I also don't think it matters how many attacks they took. They were caught in one of the more haxed abilities around and tousen dealt reasonably deep wounds against captains who have not been pointed out to be particularly resistant to injuries (as was kempachi). The blank cero didn't do much damage either-it is not meaningless though-. Even starrk admitted it wouldn't do much damage to this very people.
Again, all that that happened to them was that they were stabbed. Compare tousen's stab to a stab from gin's shikai. Which do u think is more deadly? Obviously the latter. Yet, byakuya, even after a full battle w/ ichi was still able to move and hold himself up. Rose and Love got owned by simple slashes.
___________
As for rose and love holding their own against starks. it was 2 against 1 and they both released and had their masks. Even then, they weren't able to get a hit on starks when he was serious. The only hit they got in was when he was distracted.

There is a lot of if and stuff. Truth is, in the end, shunsui's strength allowed him to defeat starks in shikai then after that he slammed rose and love for being incompetent. Starks had his hands in his pockets for heaven's sake. He was even ready for a killing blow

poopoomaru
February 05, 2010, 07:19 PM
I think that we have to keep in perspective that I don't think as a whole, all the members of the Vizards were Captain Level to begin with. Of those who were Captains before their hollowfication, it was explicitly stated that they were mostly new Captains.

Think about it, the only Vizards who have really been able to hold their own so far have been Shinji, Love, and Kensei. I am not going to count Hacchi because frankly I thought his "win" against Barragan was cheap, for reasons I won't discuss here. The three who were originally Captains, and who weren't brand new Captains like Rose. They are the only ones who we can definitely say are even on the tier of Captain originally. Of those three, Kensei hasn't done much fighting as much as just shown us single panel demonstrations. Love held his own pretty well against Starrk. Shinji has been fighting Aizen himself.

All the other members of the Vizards besides those four were Lieutenants. Now it has already been established just how much of a power gap exists between Lieutenants and Captains, so with their hollows powers, the most we could hope for would be at the most Low-Low Medium Captain level. So against the Espada, the only ones we can really be reasonable to say they would fare well against would be the four who were Captains, and of those four only three of whom we have no reason to discount a stellar performance.

With that in mind, I don't think we have seen anything surprising from them. Shunsui performed on the same level as Love even with Hollow powers because Shunsui is on the very high end of the Captain spectrum. But Love has shown far more competence then say Hitsugaya, Soifon, or Ukitake.

kkck
February 05, 2010, 07:53 PM
Again, all that that happened to them was that they were stabbed. Compare tousen's stab to a stab from gin's shikai. Which do u think is more deadly? Obviously the latter. Yet, byakuya, even after a full battle w/ ichi was still able to move and hold himself up. Rose and Love got owned by simple slashes.
___________
As for rose and love holding their own against starks. it was 2 against 1 and they both released and had their masks. Even then, they weren't able to get a hit on starks when he was serious. The only hit they got in was when he was distracted.

There is a lot of if and stuff. Truth is, in the end, shunsui's strength allowed him to defeat starks in shikai then after that he slammed rose and love for being incompetent. Starks had his hands in his pockets for heaven's sake. He was even ready for a killing blow

Isn't a stab just a stab though? I mean, gin's stab has the potential to be deeper than one of tousen but I don't think there is anything else to it. Are you saying gins stab has some sort of effect to it? Not sure what you mean here. As for the wounds you are comparing, I don't think it is appropriate to do so. Who is to say the wounds the vizards got from tousen when caught in his bankai were not deeper than the ones byakuya got?

Eddy01741
February 05, 2010, 08:03 PM
Well, if you think about it, Tousen's sword was coated with this hollowification "virus", so Tousen didn't have to deal a mortal blow to defeat the current vizards, he could have nicked them with nothing deeper than a paper cut and they would have started hollowifying. So I don't see Tousen defeating them as something too significant.

That said, their performance vs. Aizen and Espadas is significant, and so far, I'm not really impressed, nobody actually beat their enemy besides Hachi on basically a plotkai.

kkck
February 05, 2010, 08:23 PM
Well, if you think about it, Tousen's sword was coated with this hollowification "virus", so Tousen didn't have to deal a mortal blow to defeat the current vizards, he could have nicked them with nothing deeper than a paper cut and they would have started hollowifying. So I don't see Tousen defeating them as something too significant.

That said, their performance vs. Aizen and Espadas is significant, and so far, I'm not really impressed, nobody actually beat their enemy besides Hachi on basically a plotkai.

Well, whether tousen was actually the one who administered what triggered the hollowification is debatable. DId he even slash shinji? I am pretty sure shinji's wound was caused by hiyori and hiyori never really got in contact with tousen. I agree in that whatever triggered the transformation could have had an effect on the vizards.

Eddy01741
February 05, 2010, 08:27 PM
Yeah, who knows, some kind of contagious virus, but Tousen slashed all but Shinji, and some of them weren't even anywhere near mortal blows (look at the hits that Ichigo, Kenpachi and Byakuya have tanked during the SS arc), but, hollowification kicks in, and they're done.

All i'm saying is that Tousen OHKOing almost all the vizards isn't really saying (at least to me) that the vizards are weak. The vizards' performance vs. Aizen and co. is the evidence that is telling me that they're for the most part fairly weak.

DARK
March 01, 2010, 04:48 PM
Most likely the Vizard are around or near Captain-level. The Vizard that were formerly Lieutenants/Vice-Captains are probably stronger than the current Lieutenants. Not only do these Vizards have Hollow abilities/masks but they also have over 110+ years worth of experience outside the Soul Society. For all we know, they could have been training all this time.
Meanwhile, the Captain-level Vizard are near or slightly stronger than the average Captain-ranked Shinigami. We can't compare the strength of the current Captains and the Vizard Captains since they were both equally defeated by Aizen, but I believe that the Vizard are slightly stronger than the Captains (except for the experienced ones such as Kyoraku and Yama obviously).

kkck
March 01, 2010, 05:04 PM
Well, we did see hiyori and liza fight on even ground along with hitsugaya along harribel. Even if 3 on 1, without at least approaching the base captain level with shikai and mask, there is no way they would have actually been useful in that fight. I would think liza and hiyori would utterly TRASH any of the VC at this point.

As for the former captains, I think they are severely underestimated. Without masks I doubt they are any inferior to any of the captains. Love was easily able to deal with shunsui's guns without mask or bankai, just shikai. Their bankai should be no less extreme than any of the other captains so I would think their bankai + mask would be considerably overpowered.

Raizen
March 01, 2010, 07:06 PM
Well, we did see hiyori and liza fight on even ground along with hitsugaya along harribel. Even if 3 on 1, without at least approaching the base captain level with shikai and mask, there is no way they would have actually been useful in that fight. I would think liza and hiyori would utterly TRASH any of the VC at this point.

As for the former captains, I think they are severely underestimated. Without masks I doubt they are any inferior to any of the captains. Love was easily able to deal with shunsui's guns without mask or bankai, just shikai. Their bankai should be no less extreme than any of the other captains so I would think their bankai + mask would be considerably overpowered.
I think u overestimate the whole situation where the ceros were blocked by the big fat club.
It only repelled them b/c the club was big enough to cover and protect love. there was nothing special about that. That does nothing in showing his strengths. Also note that he got a direct hit starkks and starks barely flinched, meaning he didn't even show a sign of injury

THM Nindo
March 01, 2010, 07:24 PM
THe VC vizards are about soifon's level. THe captain vizards are between byakuya's levcel and shunsui. ANd shinji being possibly tied with shunsui

This is pretty much what I think too!

I wonder if they can upgrade and become even more powerful (kinda like Ichigo became Ichigonator)...

kkck
March 01, 2010, 07:33 PM
I think u overestimate the whole situation where the ceros were blocked by the big fat club.
It only repelled them b/c the club was big enough to cover and protect love. there was nothing special about that. That does nothing in showing his strengths. Also note that he got a direct hit starkks and starks barely flinched, meaning he didn't even show a sign of injury

Perhaps the club was very well suited to take energy attacks like that but I still think it was fairly impressive he took on several of starrk's ceros without even flinching. As for the damage that was taken, I don't think it was as small as you suggest. Granted he didn't seem hurt but overall it was love who forced starrk all out.

Saint Markus
March 01, 2010, 07:49 PM
strong enough to keep the story progressing, that's about it.

Raizen
March 01, 2010, 08:57 PM
This is pretty much what I think too!

I wonder if they can upgrade and become even more powerful (kinda like Ichigo became Ichigonator)...
After what has happened, I changed my mind. Soifon would own any of the VC vizards EASILY.

I think the VC vizards are probably a bit stronger than ikkaku but would lose to ANY captain, komamura included

I think teh captain vizards are stronger than koma and perhaps around MAYBE soifon't level, but that is it. Shinji is teh only vizard captain that i think is strong and maybe kensei. Kensei maybe Ken/byakuya's level. Shinji is stronger but lower than shunsui's level
[hr]

Perhaps the club was very well suited to take energy attacks like that but I still think it was fairly impressive he took on several of starrk's ceros without even flinching. As for the damage that was taken, I don't think it was as small as you suggest. Granted he didn't seem hurt but overall it was love who forced starrk all out.
LOL, what do u mean flinching? It was his club that did the work. It merely repelled them. It was not like he tanked the cero with his body. he had the perfect counter for the clubs, that is all

Starkks took a full attack and wasn't even fazed. I wouldn't say they forced him to go all out. He just wanted to hurry and finish it

THM Nindo
March 01, 2010, 09:33 PM
After what has happened, I changed my mind. Soifon would own any of the VC vizards EASILY.

I think the VC vizards are probably a bit stronger than ikkaku but would lose to ANY captain, komamura included

I think teh captain vizards are stronger than koma and perhaps around MAYBE soifon't level, but that is it. Shinji is teh only vizard captain that i think is strong and maybe kensei. Kensei maybe Ken/byakuya's level. Shinji is stronger but lower than shunsui's level
<hr noshade size="1">

LOL, what do u mean flinching? It was his club that did the work. It merely repelled them. It was not like he tanked the cero with his body. he had the perfect counter for the clubs, that is all

Starkks took a full attack and wasn't even fazed. I wouldn't say they forced him to go all out. He just wanted to hurry and finish it

I still think that VC Vizards are captain level.
Sure, Kubo didn't do a great job at showing it, but if you think about it, they were all taken down by Aizen, Gin and WW, the three biggest villain seen so far.

And even thought they were beaten pretty easily... the Vizard captain and the Gotei Captain didn't manage to do much more...

I'll say this :
VC Vizard = Low-captain tier
Captain Vizards = Mid-High captain tier
Shinji = High captain tier

kkck
March 01, 2010, 10:47 PM
Personally, I think the former VC vizards would utterly trash any of the VC or seated officers. It would be so bad it is not even funny. IMHO the former VC with shikai and mask have the base power regular captains have without shikai or bankai. That is quite something though.

zerocooldx
March 01, 2010, 11:26 PM
Kensei getting owned by an Arrancar whose soul design and purpose was to counter Yamamoto's power is so full of fail thats it's unbelievable. This is getting beyond pathetic now...

exacta
March 01, 2010, 11:47 PM
Yeah, who knows, some kind of contagious virus, but Tousen slashed all but Shinji, and some of them weren't even anywhere near mortal blows (look at the hits that Ichigo, Kenpachi and Byakuya have tanked during the SS arc), but, hollowification kicks in, and they're done.

All i'm saying is that Tousen OHKOing almost all the vizards isn't really saying (at least to me) that the vizards are weak. The vizards' performance vs. Aizen and co. is the evidence that is telling me that they're for the most part fairly weak.

Well, as far as there performance goes, Hacchi beat Barragan. Love overpowered Stark for a bit, then Stark started winning, then Shunsui cheated.And Lisa and Hiyori with the help of Hitsu in shikai were on par with Halibel til Aizen killed them.And Mashiro was able to handle Wonderweiss pretty well, and he one shot Ukitake. Shinji looks like he's above alot of the captains in Gotei 13.

Shunsui didn't overpower Stark, so I don't consider that a reason to think of Love and Rose as weak.Hacchi deserves props. If Lisa and Hiyori weren't ex-VCs and were captains instead I wouldn't give them any credit, but they definitely are stronger than all VCs.

Aside from that, yeah, Aizen owned them...uhhh he kinda owned everybody else too though.......so....

Anyway, I definitely wouldn't say Gotei 13> Vizards.Although, in a clash between the two, Gotei 13 would win, due to outnumbering them, not to mention Yamamoto.
[hr]

Kensei getting owned by an Arrancar whose soul design and purpose was to counter Yamamoto's power is so full of fail thats it's unbelievable. This is getting beyond pathetic now...

Wonderweiss one shot Ukitake. Kensei did better than him. Besides, an arrancar designed to counter Yamamoto isn't exactly a negative quality....

Besides, Wonderweiss was confirmed to be in the same class as an Espada when he appeared in Karakura.

kkck
March 02, 2010, 12:33 AM
Mashiro did better than ukitake.

zerocooldx
March 02, 2010, 12:43 AM
Being beaten by a fire extinguisher, when your ability has nothing to do with fire, is just sad. Because as Aizen clearly stated (http://mangastream.com/read/bleach/393-59/18) WW's only purpose is to negate, fire, Ryuujin Jakka. WW's doesn't even have normal Arrancar abilities, yet he owned a Bankai using Kensei. Sad...:facepalm

kkck
March 02, 2010, 12:51 AM
Didn't someone already said that?

We have no idea of whether kensei was actually owned. He certainly is not fighting WW anymore but overall we don't have much reason to suggest kensei was just defeated -he might have though-. Also, WW seems to be capable of more than just negating fire considering he freed harribel from the ice and probably had something to do with yama's fire cage being undone -I have my doubts about a creature like furar who got taken out by a single kick would be capable of undoing an attack from yama- and made mashiro's cero disappear with just a scream. Not to mention he showed some insane speed when he one shotted ukitake and has been shown to use bala. Even if WW was modified solely for the purpose of defeating ryujin jakka he must still have some insane power if he is meant to take on good old yama. He should not be taken lightly and being defeated by him is by no means a sign of weakness in any way.

zerocooldx
March 02, 2010, 01:05 AM
Didn't someone already said that?

We have no idea of whether kensei was actually owned. He certainly is not fighting WW anymore but overall we don't have much reason to suggest kensei was just defeated -he might have though-. Also, WW seems to be capable of more than just negating fire considering he freed harribel from the ice and probably had something to do with yama's fire cage being undone -I have my doubts about a creature like furar who got taken out by a single kick would be capable of undoing an attack from yama- and made mashiro's cero disappear with just a scream. Not to mention he showed some insane speed when he one shotted ukitake and has been shown to use bala. Even if WW was modified solely for the purpose of defeating ryujin jakka he must still have some insane power if he is meant to take on good old yama. He should not be taken lightly and being defeated by him is by no means a sign of weakness in any way.

Of course Kensi was beaten. What other reason would he have for allowing WW to just up leave their battle? Also like i stated Aizen said it himself that WW has but only one ability. All of the rest were thrown away. That means no cero, bala, nagacion, hierro, sonido etc. all of the abilities that Arrancar have WW doesn't have. He only has one ability, which is to negate Ryuujin Jakka. For crying out loud WW is so specialized that he doesn't even seem to have a fully functioning brain. Yet after being stripped away of all of his abilities and given an extremely specific ability he somehow ends up being insanely strong against anyone he faces? That logic seems to be failing rather miserably. Thats like having a sword thats being used as an arrow. Yet the sword would be just as effective, if not more so, then the arrow at doing what he arrow is suppose to do.

kkck
March 02, 2010, 03:31 AM
WW does have bala, he already showed it against urahara. He does have sonido otherwise captain tuberculosis would still be around. You made it sound as if WW was a paraplegic who can only blow a candle lol. I think you might have taken the whole thing to quite an extreme... The way you are putting it WW shouldn't be alive since he also gave up his hearts ability to beat and his normal breathing capacities.

AlB
March 02, 2010, 04:48 AM
I think that vizards are stronger than every gotei 13 captain and leutenant except for good oldies (yama, unohana - not sure about her, but if kyoraku prefers to be burned away buy yama's bankai than get on her bad side... :P lol) and nanao since we are clueless about her abilities.
vizards have a lot more xp than soifon, byakuya (even mashiro can defeat him with her superkicks) and komamura. hitsugaya wasn't even born for all we know when they all were leutenants and captains. kurotsuchi's tricks are nasty but remember ishida vs mayuri? speed was key to ishida's victory and we know that no vizard has any problem with that. zaraki is a powerhouse but then again - he lacks experience compared to vizards.
+ I believe that vizard leutenants have a bankai (espacially hachi, the guy is a powerhouse). guys had 100 years to train for it, if they had any problem materializing soul slayers urahara might have saved the day with his 3-day program. the fact that they didn't use bankais in FKT doesn't mean that they haven't achieved it!! (rememberthat shinji, kyoraku, rose, love never used one) I think vizards are tremendously strong, so what if rose and love were a bit battered by starK? the only thing that was damaged were their clothes and love had a bit of blood on his mouth, he could have just bitten his lips. lisa and hyoiri clearly weren't going all out on hallibel (why go all out if there's 3 vs 1 lol)
shinji would have murdered kyoraku, yes he would!! his sakanade was just wicked. the only reason aizen was able to adjust to the effects was because he is Aizen-oosama, a genius, brainiac. I don't even want to think what shinji's bankai would be.

so it is my sincere opinion that if there was a war between vizards and gotei 13 (without yama of course), gotei would be soooo screwed. yes I said that I believe that unohana is stronger than vizards but don't forget shinji!!! he will mess up her senses while others will overwhelm her.

oh, I completely forgot about ichigo, he is a vizards so I would say that his hichigonator mode makes vizard team 10 times more powerfull

Snake_Cowboy
March 02, 2010, 06:56 AM
I think the Vizards did pretty well. They weren't as strong as some of us might have been hoping, but they were definitely powerful. And it's not a shame to get owned by Aizen: Aizen has just humiliated every captain/vice-captain that was still around.

I also think that the Vizard vice-captains are approaching captain-level with their Hollow powers.

Finally, I agree that Wonderweiss should not be underestimated. Aizen may have created him for the sole purpose of stopping Ryuujin Jakka, but that doesn't mean he can only blow out flames: it only means that stopping Ryuujin Jakka is the only real purpose Aizen wants him to fulfil. There are too many hints to his powers that indicate that he's capable of cancelling out many things and I'm willing to bet that that is exactly what he did to Kensei, hence him probably getting owned, even with his Bankai.

Also, Wonderweiss just sent Yamamoto crashing to the ground with ease. I don't think anyone could just toss the captain-commander around. This incredible strength, coupled with the speed he showcased when attacking Urahara and Ukitake, shows that Wonderweiss is minimally on the level of the higher-ranking Espada. Personally, I suspect he's the strongest Arrancar we've seen yet, which would make it no shame for Kensei to have been beaten.

Xerneas
March 02, 2010, 08:48 AM
Meh. Nothing has swayed me from my original opinions posted earlier in the topic. Vizards are crappy, at least compared to what we were expecting. Just like the Espada. And Ichigo isn't a Vizard. That term is just to describe their faction. According to Aizen/Kubo lately, proper hybrids are all called Arrancar, regardless of their origin. Thats why this is the Arrancar Arc. And um, its obvious WW is a lot stronger than Starrk. I don't know why some people are talking like there is any doubt. It was obvious from the moment he showed up.
[hr]
Oh yeah, forgot to mention that in spite of their poor track record, I seriously doubt Kubo disgraced Kensei like that. We will get to see him fight. I don't think WW just decided to release and went over to Yama/Aizen. Kensei probably forced him to release and then got OHKO for his troubles.

zerocooldx
March 02, 2010, 12:22 PM
WW does have bala, he already showed it against urahara. He does have sonido otherwise captain tuberculosis would still be around. You made it sound as if WW was a paraplegic who can only blow a candle lol. I think you might have taken the whole thing to quite an extreme... The way you are putting it WW shouldn't be alive since he also gave up his hearts ability to beat and his normal breathing capacities.

Aizen was the one that said that he threw away (http://mangastream.com/read/bleach/393-59/18) all of WW's abilities and give him only one. Those aren't my words. So either that statement applies to WW overall or just when he resurrects.

kkck
March 02, 2010, 12:41 PM
Aizen was the one that said that he threw away (http://mangastream.com/read/bleach/393-59/18) all of WW's abilities and give him only one. Those aren't my words. So either that statement applies to WW overall or just when he resurrects.

So we are going to just through away the fact that we have seen the guy do all that stuff? I think he was talking about WW release rather than absiolutely everything about him. Even then, considering we have seen him make a few attacks disappear I would think he can still use his ability to some extent with others considering everything though.

ThaGreatOne
March 04, 2010, 01:53 AM
Viazards have underperformed and are letdowns just like the espada. The only won to score a major defeat was Hachi.
-Lisa and Hiyori teamed up with Godsugaya and couldn't beat Horribel
-Hiyori: gets sliced in half by gin
-Mashiro: was supposed to be able to hold her mask for hours but it cracks early and got knocked out by ONE punch from an Unreleased WW. Also note her kick projectile (w/mask) got snuffed by WW before she lost
-Shinji: was my favorite out of the group but got outsmarted by Aizen twice then kubo had him crying like a bitch for ichigo to arrive
-Kensei: kubo hasn't revealed what happened to him
-Love and Rose: teamed up and couldn't beat Stark then had Shunsui dispatch stark

Nothing they have done has been that impressive except for hachi's kido and being able to keep hyori alive after being slashed in half

Random101
March 04, 2010, 11:05 AM
-Lisa and Hiyori teamed up with Godsugaya and couldn't beat Horribel
This one simply suffers from lack of time. If Aizen jumped in and killed Barragon instantly like he did Harribel it would have ended just as quickly. Perhaps moreso depending on whether or not Barragon's bone form has another glaring weakness we don't know about allowing him to end it in one slash rather than two. Frankly that the fight was laid back enough that Hitsugaya was comfortable enough to just use shikai, despite that being all too easy for Harribel to counter, says a lot. Granted she might have pwned anyway, but it's hard to tell given Aizen went and interrupted the fight before it got off the ground... >>

AlB
March 04, 2010, 01:07 PM
Viazards have underperformed and are letdowns just like the espada. The only won to score a major defeat was Hachi.
-Lisa and Hiyori teamed up with Godsugaya and couldn't beat Horribel
-Hiyori: gets sliced in half by gin
-Mashiro: was supposed to be able to hold her mask for hours but it cracks early and got knocked out by ONE punch from an Unreleased WW. Also note her kick projectile (w/mask) got snuffed by WW before she lost
-Shinji: was my favorite out of the group but got outsmarted by Aizen twice then kubo had him crying like a bitch for ichigo to arrive
-Kensei: kubo hasn't revealed what happened to him
-Love and Rose: teamed up and couldn't beat Stark then had Shunsui dispatch stark

Nothing they have done has been that impressive except for hachi's kido and being able to keep hyori alive after being slashed in half

team chibi defeating hallibel was a matter of time, aizen interfered

hiyori - yeah she is a fail. should have listened to shinji

mashiro - her mask was canceled by ww's scream + unreleased ww
nearly pwned urahara and most certainly DID PWN UKITAKE. nothing shameful in being defeated by him

shinji - since when being outsmarted by aizen makes you a failure?! lol
but yeah crying for ichigo was not nice but then again, I want to see your mental state
when your friend, comrade gets bifurcated

shunsui defeated stark thnx to sneak attack with a shadow. you think it is easy to go against 200 + year old death god with a HOLE (NOT HOLLOW) IN YOUR CHEST?! Love +Rose served as distractions in shunsui's scenario I don't think anything wrong here. as I already said, the only thing damaged on them was their clothes

ThaGreatOne
March 09, 2010, 09:11 PM
team chibi defeating hallibel was a matter of time, aizen interfered

hiyori - yeah she is a fail. should have listened to shinji

mashiro - her mask was canceled by ww's scream + unreleased ww
nearly pwned urahara and most certainly DID PWN UKITAKE. nothing shameful in being defeated by him

shinji - since when being outsmarted by aizen makes you a failure?! lol
but yeah crying for ichigo was not nice but then again, I want to see your mental state
when your friend, comrade gets bifurcated

shunsui defeated stark thnx to sneak attack with a shadow. you think it is easy to go against 200 + year old death god with a HOLE (NOT HOLLOW) IN YOUR CHEST?! Love +Rose served as distractions in shunsui's scenario I don't think anything wrong here. as I already said, the only thing damaged on them was their clothes

But they didn't so as it stands the viazards who teamed up against hallibel did nothing.

Urahara did not get pwned though. Almost doesn't count when he didn't take any significant damage. Plus Ukitake got owned from behind, Mashiro was pwned face-to-face after her failure of a mask

When you act all badass as soon as you show up and then yo are reduced to a crying sob then it's pitiful. Shinji also saw he comrades get slashed up by tousen and about to turn into hollows. Just shows the weakness of the group

The attacks of love and rose did nothing major against Stark while Shunsui's did. Say what you will but shunsui used a shadow then used another game face-to-face to beat stark.

You can make all the excuses you want but for all the hype these viazard had the ONLY one to defeat someone....matter of fact the only one who is still standing is Hachi and he's the only viazard to defeat an enemy. Thats a fact and if they are supposed to be powerhouses then how is the one whose not even a straight up fighter the only one to win?

kkck
March 09, 2010, 09:16 PM
How was ukitake hurt from the back lol? He was looking at WW face and died a second after. He simply and blatantly could not keep up.

Raizen
March 09, 2010, 09:26 PM
How was ukitake hurt from the back lol? He was looking at WW face and died a second after. He simply and blatantly could not keep up.
Yea, but he was also stated to take things easy on children. So him not putting up his guard could also be an excuse. Though I am still angry at him.

I am more than certain he will redeem himself

poopoomaru
March 11, 2010, 07:57 AM
I am considering an idea I'd like to throw out and see what a combined analysis might have to say about it. What if the Vizards might have actually been closer in power to each other then we assumed? I know I was under the impression that the Captain Class members were significantly more powerful then the Vice-Captains, but maybe that isn't true.

The biggest thought that makes me consider this is simply Mask duration. Every single Vice-Captain based Vizard, even Hachigen, has shown significantly longer periods of Hollowfication. In this sense, perhaps the powers of the Vizard become more balanced in that the Vice Captain Vizards get to enjoy their significant power boost for much longer periods and with better control, while the Captain Class Vizards have to rely more on their own power and then strategically use their Hollow powers to boost specific attacks.

This would actually lead some credence to what Aizen has been saying about them being of a poor quality. We have no significant reason, beyond assumption, to assume that any of the Captain Class members can hold their masks for any significant amount of time at all. Hiyori was the one who was training and mocking Ichigo for not being able to hold his mask for long periods, and illustrated holding her mask for long periods of time. Mashiro was the other to have a long mask duration. When Shinji fought Grimmjow, the portion where he wore his mask didn't last any longer then maybe a minute.

It would rationalize a lot about why the Vizards have been so lack luster really. The Captain Class Vizards never really spammed their Masks, which would have given them the logical proportional increase in power to destroy their enemies, because they weren't capable of it. The Vice Captain Vizards were able to spam their masks, however the logical proportional increase in power only allowed them to keep up with Captain level enemies.

Now, all this is forgetting about Bankai. Which is a logic hole not only in this idea, but also in the story itself. No one seems to want to use bankai. One possibility though is that perhaps the Captain Class Vizards aren't capable of using their masks in conjunction with their bankai. This hearkens back to Aizen's claim at their poor quality again. In that case, it might be more advantageous for them to simply choose the more convenient of two power boosts for any given situation. Not all bankai are just more powerful versions of their shikai abilities or just power boosts. There is also the possible stigma they might have with using their shinigami abilities as they are not too big of fans of them.

AlB
March 11, 2010, 08:12 AM
1.But they didn't so as it stands the viazards who teamed up against hallibel did nothing.

2.Plus Ukitake got owned from behind, Mashiro was pwned face-to-face after her failure of a mask

3.When you act all badass as soon as you show up and then yo are reduced to a crying sob then it's pitiful.
4.Shinji also saw he comrades get slashed up by tousen and about to turn into hollows.

5.The attacks of love and rose did nothing major against Stark while Shunsui's did. Say what you will but shunsui used a shadow then used another game face-to-face to beat stark.

6.how is the one whose not even a straight up fighter the only one to win?

1. tired of proving my point on this, whatever :notrust
2. so did stark. yes, shunsui got him from behind!! it's not easy to kick around with the hole in your chest. + mashiro's mask was canceled by ww's scream. oh and ukitake was actually watching WW, and he still got OMFGPWNED
disclaimer: there's nothing wrong with attacking from behind: it's a war goddamit
3.what reaction would you have if your friend got befurcated before your eyes? (god save you and allyour friends)
4.didn't get what you are reffering to
5.neither did stark's attacks cause any major damage to love and rose (torn clothes and a drop of blood IS NOT A TYPE OF DAMAGE TO DOOM THEM LOSERS)
6. whaaa??! if a kido master isn't the fighter then who the hell is?!?!?!?


btw, you talk about defeating stark as if it is easy. lol the guy is the 1st espada! shunsui beat him with shikai yeah, but that's because of the uniqueness of his shikai. his clothes complemented his color game and therefore allowed him to win pretty easily. plus, shunsui is one of the oldest and strongest captains!! he's been captain for 200 years!! he's completely different league, generation, etc.

and if stark's clothing was all white he would have killed shunsui
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/374/12/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/374/13/

stark shouldn't have released LOL :D

Primecut
March 11, 2010, 09:28 AM
They are only slightly better than when they were back in soul society. The extra hollow power hasnt been a gamebreaker from what we have seen. For example, Mashiro with hollow powers makes her near captain level briefly (by how she was fighting Wonderweis) however she runs out of power too quick so a regular captain would still stomp her in the long run. I mean, do you guys really think a vice captain can hang with Wonderweis when he one shot Ukitake? Maybe she can KO a vice captain before she runs out of power I guess but I still think it is absurd...

Anyway, the other vizards dont even seem to use the hollow powers in battle most of the time meaning there are risks. Shinji is not a moron, he woulda busted out the mask against Aizen if it woulda made a big difference. Thus it just doesnt make much difference whether they are vizards or shinigamis. A stronger shinigami would still stomp a weaker shinigami even if you give the weaker shinigami a mask....always. Maybe it beefs up vice captains though but the captain levels still look around captain levels.

ThaGreatOne
March 24, 2010, 02:02 PM
1. tired of proving my point on this, whatever :notrust
2. so did stark. yes, shunsui got him from behind!! it's not easy to kick around with the hole in your chest. + mashiro's mask was canceled by ww's scream. oh and ukitake was actually watching WW, and he still got OMFGPWNED
disclaimer: there's nothing wrong with attacking from behind: it's a war goddamit
3.what reaction would you have if your friend got befurcated before your eyes? (god save you and allyour friends)
4.didn't get what you are reffering to
5.neither did stark's attacks cause any major damage to love and rose (torn clothes and a drop of blood IS NOT A TYPE OF DAMAGE TO DOOM THEM LOSERS)
6. whaaa??! if a kido master isn't the fighter then who the hell is?!?!?!?


btw, you talk about defeating stark as if it is easy. lol the guy is the 1st espada! shunsui beat him with shikai yeah, but that's because of the uniqueness of his shikai. his clothes complemented his color game and therefore allowed him to win pretty easily. plus, shunsui is one of the oldest and strongest captains!! he's been captain for 200 years!! he's completely different league, generation, etc.

and if stark's clothing was all white he would have killed shunsui
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/374/12/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/374/13/

stark shouldn't have released LOL :D

Two viazards couldn't beat stark but Shinsui could he is better bottom line. He got the job done while the viazard duo could not. Let's talk about results and not hype and shoulda woulda coulda. Ukitake got stabbed from behind but you can have that. Kensei and mashiro couldn't beat WW but yamamoto did. Like I said compare the results. The only person to win was hachi and he had help from a captain. GODsugaya at least had hallibel trapped.

When the viazard showed up they were OVERRATED!! I remember people talking about how all of them were stronger than the captains and people were even claiming they were stronger than yamamoto!!

Bottom line Viazards = Overhyped and Overrated.
You can keep saying they are really strong and all that jazz but look at the expectations then look at what happened? In the end the viazards really had almost no effect on the battle while at least one captain did damage to Aizen and proved he was stronger than ALL the viazards and unohana is still left. You don't have much evidence to prove the viazard are just so dominant so you might as well stop

El Samurai Guapo
March 24, 2010, 06:18 PM
Two viazards couldn't beat stark but Shinsui could he is better bottom line.

Perhaps you're reading a different manga because what I saw was Shunsui interrupting a fight that was still ongoing. For you to say that the vizards could not beat Starrk is nothing more than speculation on your part.


Bottom line Viazards = Overhyped and Overrated.

Well I say the same about the so-called "elder captains" (Unohana, Kyouraku, Ukitake), I think they're all overrated and overhyped. Some people thought they'd actually be close to Aizen's level, while we saw how Shunsui dropped against Aizen as quickly as any other captain.


In the end the viazards really had almost no effect on the battle

I think you're wrong about that. Would Barragan have died if the Hachi did not show up? Nope

Would Shunsui have been able to creep up and get into Starrk's shadow if Starrk was not busy fighting Love & Rose? Probably not. Especially if you consider the fact that WW would have probably joined in the fight since Kensei and Mashiro would not have been there to occupy him.

Would Toushirou have been able to continue fighting Harribel without the help of Lisa and Hiyori? Who knows.

The vizards did indeed help the gotei 13 quite a bit, whether you like or not, vizard hater.

En Yang Ji
August 05, 2010, 06:34 PM
I'm not sure if they all have resurrections, like Tousen did, but I think that they should at least have evolved hollow forms. Theoretically all they would have to do to obtain more power is let their hollows take over. They could become like kensei did in the TBTP arc.

I'm starting to think the vizards can resurrect. Remember when Ichigo turned into a hollow? It looked strikingly similar to his resurrected state. If that's the same thing as Ichigo's resurrected state, than Kensei's hollow form is probably the same thing or at least very similar to his resurrection.

I think the only thing that's necessary for the vizards to resurrect is complete mastery of their inner hollow. The reason they probably have time limits and can't resurrect at the moment is because they still haven't completely subjugated their inner hollows

- Shinji noted that training hollow powers takes an very, very long time, even for Ichigo. It took Ichigo 1-2 months to be able to hold his mask 11 s, and he has a extremely fast fast growth rate (albeit he was able to extend that time dramatically during his fight with GJ). Imagine how long it took the vizards.

It seems they still haven't reached the level Ichigo was at during his fight with GJ; they still have really short time limits. Since their Ichigo group like Shinji said and their going to be fighting stronger enemies, I think their going to have an intense training session (that or Urahara uses HG on them). Somehow I believe their going to obtain resurrections.

Hystzen
August 05, 2010, 06:40 PM
apart from mashiro who always been able to hold her mask for 13 hours without training..i dont think they have a resurrection coz IMO that be silly having characters that ment be shinigamis turning into monster ...why i hope ichigo doesnt get the ability turn into perfect hollow form just to fight Aizen on par...be stupid and so far from the Bleach roots...but then again it has gone far from its roots

El Samurai Guapo
August 05, 2010, 07:01 PM
apart from mashiro who always been able to hold her mask for 13 hours without training..i dont think they have a resurrection coz IMO that be silly having characters that ment be shinigamis turning into monster ...why i hope ichigo doesnt get the ability turn into perfect hollow form just to fight Aizen on par...be stupid and so far from the Bleach roots...but then again it has gone far from its roots

I agree, I'm opposed to the idea of the vaizards having resurreccions because it would be seriously lame for them to turn into some ugly-ass insect or w/e like Kaname.

The masks by themselves are the epitome of cool; plus I think bankai with mask on is the ideal balance between hollow and shinigami. Res would be leaning too much in favor of the hollow side. The mask alone already grants access to hollow techniques like cero, so I'm sure things like a bala or sonido are doable with the mask as well.

That being said, I'm sure the vaizards are capable of a full hollow transformation like Ichigo. Contrary to popular belief, they're no different than Ichigo. They all have an inner-hollow inside of them, the only difference is that they have far more control over it.

kkck
August 05, 2010, 07:39 PM
I'm not sure if they all have resurrections, like Tousen did, but I think that they should at least have evolved hollow forms. Theoretically all they would have to do to obtain more power is let their hollows take over. They could become like kensei did in the TBTP arc.

I'm starting to think the vizards can resurrect. Remember when Ichigo turned into a hollow? It looked strikingly similar to his resurrected state. If that's the same thing as Ichigo's resurrected state, than Kensei's hollow form is probably the same thing or at least very similar to his resurrection.

I don't think it'd be so simple for a vizard to advance. The vizards are not particularly advanced hybrids. In that sense they are very limited in many aspects. There is a reason aizen called them arrancar copies and whatnot.

Jackk
August 07, 2010, 04:27 PM
I don't think it'd be so simple for a vizard to advance. The vizards are not particularly advanced hybrids. In that sense they are very limited in many aspects. There is a reason aizen called them arrancar copies and whatnot.

Simple to advance? probably not. Nevertheless, they are not incomplete hybrids. Aizen called them something along the lines of "arrancar copies" but it is perfectly arguable that he was just making fun of them, and doing it merely as provocation... even Komaura tells Ichigo that that is Aizen's specialty: to provoke his enemies etc.

The Vaizards were failed experiments when Aizen tried pure hollowfication on them, but Urahara's Hokyoku fixed them, and made them complete/perfect Vaizards, Aizen says this himself.

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-414-page-8.html

Furthermore, the Vaizards clearly have more control of their vaizard powers... we've seen them use ceros, and Hachi even made some new techniques that he came up with after he got his hollow powers. They also use it more efficiently, in my opinion. The Vaizards have been training with their hollow powers for around 100 years after all. In addition, truth is... we really haven't seen a whole lot from them. I don't want them to have a "monster" transformation like Tousen, but it would not be impossible... maybe even a transformation like "Ichigonator" which can still use Bankai, unlike Tousen which seemed to not be able to use Bankai sense he didn't have his sword anymore... who knows... if they don't have any sort of hollow transformation beyond mask, perhaps they may still be "capable" of achieving it eventually.

We still don't know a lot about the vaizards, in regards to their full powers, that is all I'm saying... so it wouldn't be impossible for them to be "capable" of having the same or similar hybrid powers as Tousen or Ichigo, either now or eventually... speculation? definitely, but it's not impossible given that we have not seen much from the Vaizards's hollow powers yet. We have only seen some of them use mask + Shikai so far... I'm pretty positive that they should at least be able to use mask + Bankai too. Anything more, I don't see it impossible either, but who knows...

Like others have said, the Vaizards have an inner hollow too, so why not?

As for the main question of this thread... I believe that the Vaizards are actually very strong. I feel that they tend to be seriously underrated by some people here. They got beaten by Aizen but so were the Gotei 13 Captains... and none of the Vaizards went all out either (Shinji didn't even use Shikai + Mask, and I'm sure he can since Love and Rose can)...and I'm sure that we didn't even see the full capabilities of the their shikais, and we didn't even see their Bankais, with possibly Kensei as the exception but we didn't even see him fight.

I think Kubo is definitely saving their powers for later, and I think we will at least see them use Bankai + Mask, along with whatever other abilities they may have that they have not shown yet.

Nicholas.Sama
August 07, 2010, 04:53 PM
That being said, I'm sure the vaizards are capable of a full hollow transformation like Ichigo. Contrary to popular belief, they're no different than Ichigo. They all have an inner-hollow inside of them, the only difference is that they have far more control over it.


The difference between Ichigo and the Vizards is that his hollow and his zanpakuto are one and the same. As far as I can tell the Vizards' hollows are separate entities all together. I think that's a huge difference. Thus, Aizen refers to them as failures.

Jackk
August 07, 2010, 05:22 PM
The difference between Ichigo and the Vizards is that his hollow and his zanpakuto are one and the same. As far as I can tell the Vizards' hollows are separate entities all together. I think that's a huge difference. Thus, Aizen refers to them as failures.

We have not seen the Vaizards interacting with their inner hollows, what you're saying is mere speculation. Others can also speculate that the Vaizards inner hollows are also capable of being one with their Zanpakutos. And as I stated in my previous post, Aizen was only making fun of the Vaizards as a mere tactic of provocation. Shinji undertood this and told Hayori to calm down, but she didn't listen... and then you know what happened after that...

Aizen then later explained to Isshin that the Vaizards were fail experiments at first when Aizen used his substance to induce hollowfication on them; however, thanks to Urahara and his Hokyoku... the Vaizards were "fixed" and made into perfect Vaizards.

ryanzokuken
August 07, 2010, 06:03 PM
We have not seen the Vaizards interacting with their inner hollows, what you're saying is mere speculation. Others can also speculate that the Vaizards inner hollows are also capable of being one with their Zanpakutos. And as I stated in my previous post, Aizen was only making fun of the Vaizards as a mere tactic of provocation. Shinji undertood this and told Hayori to calm down, but she didn't listen... and then you know what happened after that...

Aizen then later explained to Isshin that the Vaizards were fail experiments at first when Aizen used his substance to induce hollowfication on them; however, thanks to Urahara and his Hokyoku... the Vaizards were "fixed" and made into perfect Vaizards.

the vaizards aren't the same as Ichigo. Ichigo became a shinigami and a hollow at the exact same point. his hollow and zanpakuto are one, as was already said. this should be clear by now.

El Samurai Guapo
August 07, 2010, 07:13 PM
the vaizards aren't the same as Ichigo. Ichigo became a shinigami and a hollow at the exact same point. his hollow and zanpakuto are one, as was already said. this should be clear by now.

Actually the origins of Ichigo's hollow aren't totally clear. His hollow could have also been born out of the desire to save Rukia. Just like how Orihime and Chad's powers came about; it was all the doing of the hogyouku. The vaizards were made into complete hybrids by the Hogyouku because it was Kisuke's wish for them to be saved.

As for the vaizards hollow and zanpakutou being two separate entities, like Jackk said above, that's pure speculation. In fact, I'm pretty sure the opposite is true. Remember it was the vaizards that taught Ichigo exactly how to supress his hollow, which means they all had to go through the same thing themselves. Also, their masks seem to work exactly the same way as Ichigo's does - except for the fact that they have more control over them.

I think bottom line is that nobody wants to concede that the vaizards' masks give them as big of a boost as Ichigo's mask does. Everyone knows Ichigo literally gets a almost Super Saiyajin type power boost from putting his mask on. It's fairly obvious that if the vaizards who are former captains get as big of a boost from hollowfying as Ichigo that there would be no way for anyone to argue that the Gotei 13 captains are stronger...

...that's why the tactic of many posters on this forum is to use that line from Aizen where he calls the vaizards failed/incomplete arrancar. This is despite that fact that it's obvious Aizen was attempting to provoke them so that they'd rush at him and get cut down. Am I the only one that's noticed that Aizen has a fetish for doing this? Aizen loves to say or do things that he knows will infuriate his opponents, wait for them to come to him, give them a non-fatal wound, and then give them some BS lecture about why they are incapable of defeating him, or why they failed, etc. I'm pretty sure Komamura Sajin even pointed this out to Ichigo. Shinji also tried to warn Hiyori about this but obviously she’s a stubborn idiot that doesn’t listen.

I actually think the best example of how the vaizards gain a extraordinary boost from hollowfication is Mashiro vs. Wonderweiss; Mashiro's performance against Wonderweiss is probably the best example of how a vaizard's mask gives at least as much of a power increase as Ichigo's mask does. While Mashiro had the mask on, she was knocking WW all over FKT Dragon Ball style. Without it, she got punched in the face before she could evem do anything. Now people will argue that she did not inflict any damage on WW while she had the mask on anyway, but that’s beside the point. Could Mashiro, a mere VC , have been capable of kicking so hard that an arrancar of WW’s level would be flung halfway across town without her mask? Hell no, what do you think would happen if Isane or Nanao or Momo tried that shit, they’d get knocked out the f out in two seconds just like Mashiro did without her mask. Seriously, without the mask, WW probably wouldn't have even budged an inch after being punched or kicked by Mashiro (or any other VC level character really). Mashiro was probably moving too fast for WW to react while she had the mask on - which is why WW couldn't pull off a counter attack until the mask came off. Another thing to note is that WW was capable of high speed regeneration, and we know from Ulquiorra that an arrancar does not have to be released to use it.

ryanzokuken
August 07, 2010, 07:27 PM
Actually the origins of Ichigo's hollow aren't totally clear. His hollow could have also been born out of the desire to save Rukia. Just like how Orihime and Chad's powers came about; it was all the doing of the hogyouku. The vaizards were made into complete hybrids by the Hogyouku because it was Kisuke's wish for them to be saved.

As for the vaizards not hollow and zanpakutou being two separate entities, like Jackk said above, that's pure speculation. In fact, I'm pretty sure the opposite is true. Remember it was the vaizards that taught Ichigo exactly how to supress his hollow, which means they all had to go through the same thing themselves. Also, their masks seem to work exactly the same way as Ichigo's does - except for the fact that they have more control over them.

I think bottom line is that nobody wants to concede that the vaizards' masks give them as big of a boost as Ichigo's mask does. Everyone knows Ichigo literally gets a almost Super Saiyajin type power boost from putting his mask on. It's fairly obvious that if the vaizards who are former captains get as big of a boost from hollowfying as Ichigo that there would be no way for anyone to argue that the Gotei 13 captains are stronger...

...that's why the tactic of many posters on this forum is to use that line from Aizen where he calls the vaizards failed/incomplete arrancar. This is despite that fact that it's obvious Aizen was attempting to provoke them so that they'd rush at him and get cut down. Am I the only one that's noticed that Aizen has a fetish for doing this? Aizen loves to say or do things that he knows will infuriate his opponents, wait for them to come to him, give them a non-fatal wound, and then give them some BS lecture about why they are incapable of defeating him, or why they failed, etc. I'm pretty sure Komamura Sajin even pointed this out to Ichigo. Shinji also tried to warn Hiyori about this but obviously she’s a stubborn idiot that doesn’t listen.

I actually think the best example of how the vaizards gain a extraordinary boost from hollowfication is Mashiro vs. Wonderweiss; Mashiro's performance against Wonderweiss is probably the best example of how a vaizard's mask gives at least as much of a power increase as Ichigo's mask does. While Mashiro had the mask on, she was knocking WW all over FKT Dragon Ball style. Without it, she got punched in the face before she could evem do anything. Now people will argue that she did not inflict any damage on WW while she had the mask on anyway, but that’s beside the point. Could Mashiro, a mere VC , have been capable of kicking so hard that an arrancar of WW’s level would be flung halfway across town without her mask? Hell no, what do you think would happen if Isane or Nanao or Momo tried that shit, they’d get knocked out the f out in two seconds just like Mashiro did without her mask. Seriously, without the mask, WW probably wouldn't have even budged an inch after being punched or kicked by Mashiro (or any other VC level character really). Mashiro was probably moving too fast for WW to react while she had the mask on - which is why WW couldn't pull off a counter attack until the mask came off. Another thing to note is that WW was capable of high speed regeneration, and we know from Ulquiorra that an arrancar does not have to be released to use it.

....his hollow was born in Urahara's shattered shaft, just like his shinigami powers because he escaped just as his chain was devoured completely.

he came out with a zanpakuto and a mask.

the vaizards were shinigami who got "hollowified" by Aizen.

En Yang Ji
August 07, 2010, 07:36 PM
There's also Lisa's and Hiyori's perfomance against Harribel. I doubt they could preform so well without masks.

kkck
August 07, 2010, 08:00 PM
....his hollow was born in Urahara's shattered shaft, just like his shinigami powers because he escaped just as his chain was devoured completely.

he came out with a zanpakuto and a mask.

the vaizards were shinigami who got "hollowified" by Aizen.

Neither shinigami or hollow powers were born or created during ichigo's training with urahara.
http://www.cloudmanga.com/Bleach/63/8/
Rukia's shinigami power awakened ichigo's own. In that sense, if ichigo's powers were merely awakened by that of rukia, then logically he must have had them all along. Given ishin, ichigo most likely had his powers from the moment he was born and that includes hollow powers. Nothing urahara did gave ichigo power, everything urahara did merely helped wake up ichigo's power or helped develop it.

Nicholas.Sama
August 07, 2010, 09:02 PM
If the rest of the Vizards were just like Ichigo, then Aizen wouldn't care about Ichigo so much.
Urahara used the Hogyoku and wished that all they had was mask.(If Aizen was correct in his analysis).

El Samurai Guapo
August 07, 2010, 09:25 PM
There's also Lisa's and Hiyori's perfomance against Harribel. I doubt they could preform so well without masks.

This is also true. Even though the fight was 3 on 1, they didn't even release their shikai until the very end, right before Aizen stepped in and finished her off...and don't forget we're talking about the released third espada here. She was ranked much higher (and probably much stronger) than arrancars like Zommari, Nnoitora, Grimmjow, Szayel - all of whom gave their respective captain level opponents a run for their money. The fact that Lisa even approached Harribel alone - and sealed - says one of two things: either she's incredibly stupid, or she was confident that she could take her on. I don't see Lisa as being stupid...Hiyori maybe, but Lisa no.

I'm still interested in seeing what kind of shikai abilities Lisa and Hiyori have because, provided that they're decent enough, I believe they could have taken the 3rd espada out themselves, or even individually. I especially want to see more of kubikiri orochi (http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs51/f/2009/267/0/5/Kubikiri_Orochi__Hiyori_Shikai_by_BK_209.jpg). That cero hiyori shot out of her mouth seemed pretty devastating as well. If it's anything like Shinji's cero then we know it's got to be seriously overpowered.

In retrospect, I feel that I should state here that I personally declare that Shinji's cero was the most impressive we've seen so far in bleach; the thing basically one-shotted grimmjow. What makes Shinji's cero seem so devastating though, is the fact that Grimmjow minimized the damage by firing his own cero at the last minute - yet he still got messed up badly. Shinji was obviously toying with Grimmjow up until the point where he said “sorry arrancar you seem strong so I can’t take it easy on you” and then fired the cero.

Seriously what other cero have we seen that has done more damage? As Random 101 has pointed out in other threads, Ichigonator’s cero, while massive in size, couldn’t even destroy Ulquiorra with a direct shot to the head from inches away. Ulquiorra's cero oscuras had to be shot at Ichigo point-blank to the chest to kill him. Starrk’s ceros did nothing but slightly singe Shunsui’s clothing. Shinji’s cero, even while being minimized by Grimmjow’s own cero, was more impressive IMO. That was pretty quick thinking on Grimmjow's part by the way. I think he was a more intelligent fighter than some realize (like how he trapped Ulquiorra with caja negacion rather than fighting him).

Now of course there have been other ranged attacks in bleach that seemed to be even more powerful. Jakuho Raikoben would be one; maybe lanza del relampago and hadou 88 from Tessai as well. But as far as ceros go, my vote goes to Shinji's.


If the rest of the Vizards were just like Ichigo, then Aizen wouldn't care about Ichigo so much.
Urahara used the Hogyoku and wished that all they had was mask.(If Aizen was correct in his analysis).

I don't think it's Ichigo's hollowfication that Aizen is interested in. It's not his hollow that makes him special, it's the fact that he's half shinigami/half human (whatever that means), or perhaps some other reason yet to be revealed.

Revolation
August 07, 2010, 09:30 PM
Neither shinigami or hollow powers were born or created during ichigo's training with urahara.
http://www.cloudmanga.com/Bleach/63/8/
Rukia's shinigami power awakened ichigo's own. In that sense, if ichigo's powers were merely awakened by that of rukia, then logically he must have had them all along. Given ishin, ichigo most likely had his powers from the moment he was born and that includes hollow powers. Nothing urahara did gave ichigo power, everything urahara did merely helped wake up ichigo's power or helped develop it.

you've been saying this for the past year but i still don't really understand how he was born with hollow powers. i mean, byakuya skewers soul chain and soul sleep, but that was the power rukia gave to him, but he had his own inner shinigami power inside of him(suprisingly nobody questioned that back then) well then we know what happened next, ichigo in plus form. shattered shaft, chain of fate.........eroded.........white mask shoot out when chain of fate eroded, just like the bounded spirit at the hospital(though don kanonji sped that up)

so whats up with this born with hollow powers. does the shattered shaft and chain of fate eroding and a hollow mask coming out mean anything at all?

i mean it even showed his inner world breaking down signifying his hollow transormation(which goes back to my theory of how hollows don't have inner worlds because they don't have hearts and why arrancar ressurecions are different than bankais).

luckily, he found his shinigami powers.

hajialibaig
August 07, 2010, 10:22 PM
Seeing how the Vizards are a product of failed hollowfication experiment, it is highly unlikely that they have a resurrection like the one Tousen had. Also, most of the Vaizards have serious mask time limitations (~around 3 minutes) - with the exception of Mashiro who can hold it for more than 3 minutes..but not much longer though, in a serious fight. I'd imagine the vice-captain level vizards have shikai releases only too...anyway, with the above notes I'd say:

vice captain level vizards: komamura level ~ byakuya level range
captain vaizards: Ichigo ~ Shunsui level range

ryanzokuken
August 07, 2010, 11:52 PM
Neither shinigami or hollow powers were born or created during ichigo's training with urahara.
http://www.cloudmanga.com/Bleach/63/8/
Rukia's shinigami power awakened ichigo's own. In that sense, if ichigo's powers were merely awakened by that of rukia, then logically he must have had them all along. Given ishin, ichigo most likely had his powers from the moment he was born and that includes hollow powers. Nothing urahara did gave ichigo power, everything urahara did merely helped wake up ichigo's power or helped develop it.

Rukia transfered her power to Ichigo. Byakuya removed it.

Urahara got his OWN power to awaken.
otherwise...wtf was that training for? :eyeroll
he just had fun watching Ichigo suffer in the shattered shaft?
that was the first appearance of his mask, because that's when he became a hollow. his chain devoured itself. Urahara said when this happened, he would become a hollow and they would have to kill him.
if he escaped the hole before then, he would gain his shinigami powers.

the two things happened at once.
how are people still not understanding this?

yea, Ichigo's daddy is a shinigami. but Ichigo is a living, breathing human, and he has to leave his human body and enter soul form in order to use shinigami abilities. being a shinigami didn't just transfer to him in his human body's genetics... :oh

Nicholas.Sama
August 08, 2010, 12:03 AM
Also, there is no reason in hell for us to not have seen their Resurreccions by this point. Bankai is one thing. But a release on top of that? Only so much stupidity is believable.

Kaiten
August 08, 2010, 02:49 PM
I think bottom line is that nobody wants to concede that the vaizards' masks give them as big of a boost as Ichigo's mask does. Everyone knows Ichigo literally gets a almost Super Saiyajin type power boost from putting his mask on. It's fairly obvious that if the vaizards who are former captains get as big of a boost from hollowfying as Ichigo that there would be no way for anyone to argue that the Gotei 13 captains are stronger...

...that's why the tactic of many posters on this forum is to use that line from Aizen where he calls the vaizards failed/incomplete arrancar. This is despite that fact that it's obvious Aizen was attempting to provoke them so that they'd rush at him and get cut down. Am I the only one that's noticed that Aizen has a fetish for doing this? Aizen loves to say or do things that he knows will infuriate his opponents, wait for them to come to him, give them a non-fatal wound, and then give them some BS lecture about why they are incapable of defeating him, or why they failed, etc. I'm pretty sure Komamura Sajin even pointed this out to Ichigo. Shinji also tried to warn Hiyori about this but obviously she’s a stubborn idiot that doesn’t listen.

I actually think the best example of how the vaizards gain a extraordinary boost from hollowfication is Mashiro vs. Wonderweiss; Mashiro's performance against Wonderweiss is probably the best example of how a vaizard's mask gives at least as much of a power increase as Ichigo's mask does. While Mashiro had the mask on, she was knocking WW all over FKT Dragon Ball style. Without it, she got punched in the face before she could evem do anything. Now people will argue that she did not inflict any damage on WW while she had the mask on anyway, but that’s beside the point. Could Mashiro, a mere VC , have been capable of kicking so hard that an arrancar of WW’s level would be flung halfway across town without her mask? Hell no, what do you think would happen if Isane or Nanao or Momo tried that shit, they’d get knocked out the f out in two seconds just like Mashiro did without her mask. Seriously, without the mask, WW probably wouldn't have even budged an inch after being punched or kicked by Mashiro (or any other VC level character really). Mashiro was probably moving too fast for WW to react while she had the mask on - which is why WW couldn't pull off a counter attack until the mask came off. Another thing to note is that WW was capable of high speed regeneration, and we know from Ulquiorra that an arrancar does not have to be released to use it.

There is no doubt the masks were supposed to give them a power boost. But it mattered very little in the story. The only vaizard who had any success were Hachi, who was unmasked anyway, and Mashiro. For the others the mask made little to know difference in the outcome, all were either pwn'ed or had fought to little effect.


If the rest of the Vizards were just like Ichigo, then Aizen wouldn't care about Ichigo so much.
Urahara used the Hogyoku and wished that all they had was mask.(If Aizen was correct in his analysis).

Aizen cares about Ichigo because he is a natural hybrid. His father is a shinigami, his mother is human making him the best suited character to transcend the limits of shinigami. Aizen stated at the end of SS that his goal was to find a power that we came to know Ichigo possessed innately. The Vaizard and Espada were experiments to create artificial Ichigo, basically.

El Samurai Guapo
August 08, 2010, 03:09 PM
There is no doubt the masks were supposed to give them a power boost. But it mattered very little in the story. The only vaizard who had any success were Hachi, who was unmasked anyway, and Mashiro. For the others the mask made little to know difference in the outcome, all were either pwn'ed or had fought to little effect.

Well the story is not over yet though, is it? Do you really believe that there was no reason behind the vaizards not revealing their bankais? Their roles in bleach are obviously not over yet. Some people speak as if all the characters already had their final battles and bleach was on the verge of ending.

Jackk
August 08, 2010, 04:21 PM
My take on Ichigo's case as a Vaizard/hybrid is this:

Rukia is fighting a hollow, gets careless but is still not defeated;however, Ichigo gets in the way, Rukia gets in front of Ichigo to save him, and then Rukia is wounded by the hollow.

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-1-page-38.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-1-page-39.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-1-page-40.html

Then, because of the above, Rukia says that she's no longer able to fight the hollow, and asks Ichigo if he wants to save his family. Ichigo tells her to tell him the way to do it, to which Rukia responds that he must become a shinigami.

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-1-page-41.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-1-page-42.html

Rukia said she meant to give only half of her powers to Ichigo, but the transfer give it all to Ichigo.

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-1-page-51.html

Leaving the above aside for a moment....

Yes, we then know that when Ichigo first tried to fight Byakuya in the world of the living, Byakuya attacked Ichigo in a way that caused him to lose the shinigami powers that were given to him by Rukia. Urahara then rescued him, afterwards took him to his underground arena and cut Ichigo's soul chain. Urahara said that Ichigo was going to have to go and awaken his own shinigami powers now, and that if he didn't do it in time, that he would become a hollow since his soul chain was cut etc. In other words, by the time his soul chain was completely gone, he would either emerge as a hollow or a shinigami.

Ichigo's time was almost over and he was turning into a hollow, but at the last moment, he found his Zanpakutou and awakened his true/own shinigami powers (that he most likely had dormant within him, due to his father being a shinigami), and so Ichigo emerged as a shinigami but with a mask. I believe that Ichigo did acquire his hollow powers right there, and emerged as a shinigami/hollow hybrid. Ichigo's shinigami was just the dominant side back then, until his hollow side started causing him troubles and manifesting more in the soul society and subsequent arks.

Nevertheless, lets now go back to how Rukia's powers were given in full to Ichigo, instead of only half, which is what Rukia said was what she meant to do, that is, to only give half of her powers and not all of it.

We learned from Aizen that the true power of the Hogyoku is not to break the barrier between shinigami and hollow, but rather, to basically make the deepest or true desires of an individual, come true.

Aizen says that the hollowfication that the Viazards underwent, while simultaneously being an experiment in pure hollowfication, it was also done to confirm the power of the Hougyoku. (Aizen must have had some knowledge of Urahara's experiments;however, the Hougyouku was still in Kisuke's position at the time) Then, again, because of Kisuke's interventation and the ability of the Hougyoku, the vaizards became complete/perfect vaizards. Aizen had that theory, and thus sent Rukia to side of Ichigo. Then, we find out that the reason for why Rukia's full power was transfered to Ichigo, instead of only half of her power, was because Rukia had not been rescued from the pain of killing Kaien Shiba. In other words, deep inside of her... she wished to stop being a shinigami, and the Hougyoku granted that wish and gave all her power to Ichigo.

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-414-page-8.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-414-page-9.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-414-page-6.html

Now to connect all that information, and further tying it to the discussion of the Vaizards. I believe that the Hougyoku definitely had a lot of influence in various events that happened in this manga's storyline. Perhaps saying that the Hougyoku was responsible for creating Ichigo's hollow is really stretching it since the Hougyoku was now in Soul Society with Rukia, when Ichigo was in the world of the living with Urahara trying to get his own dormant shinigami powers... unless you actually believe that Ichigo already had hollow powers before Urahara broke his soul chain, which I honestly don't believe. I think he got them simultaneously as he acquired his own dormant shinigami powers. He emerged as a shinigami with a mask etc.

Nevertheless, the Hougyoku was the one responsible for giving Rukia's full powers to Ichigo initially because that was Rukia's deepest desire. We also know that the Hougyoku was responsible for giving Chad and Orihime their powers because they cursed their own powerlessness from the bottom of their hearts. Even though we learned in the beginning that their powers were influenced/created from ichigo's reiatsu's/spiritual pressure influence on them... the Hougyoku still played a role as well in Chad and Orihime's powers. Then last but not least, the Hougyoku played the role of "fixing" the Vaizards from being Aizen's failed experiements, and made them complete/perfect Vaizards, which was due to Urahara's deepest desire to fix them into perfect Vaizards.

The Houkyoku recently understood Aizen's heart and desires and look how it has increased his power and transformed him into this other "perfect" being.

My point is: if we know how incredible the things that the Houkyouku can do are, and then we know that even though the Vaizards were failed experiments at first, but were actually "fixed" into "perfect Vaizards" with the help of the Hougyoku, then it is not impossible to assume that the Vaizards's inner hollows can also be one with their zanpakutou. They were artificially created, unlike Ichigo; however, the Vaizards were fixed by the Hougyoku and were said to be perfect after that. Therefore, I am only saying that I do not see it as impossible for them to be "capable" of achieving something more.

Admittedly, I honestly just want them to do Bankai + Mask(which I'm positive in that they can do it since we know that they can do Shikai + Mask), because I think that a "beast" form like Tousen's wouldn't look cool, but that's my opinion. Either way, the Hougyuku fixed them... I don't think it's really accurate to still call them "failed experiments" ...regardless of whether or not they can do a hollow transformation beyond the Mask, but who know....

Additionally, the reason why Aizen was more interested in Ichigo from the day he was born, at least from what we know so far, is because Ichigo is a shinigami, and a human, and now also a hollow hybrid. (he's basically all three, AND he has demonstrated to have an incredible growth rate, unlike other normal shinigamis that take longer to achieve certain tasks etc.) According to Aizen, Ichigo possessed the finest raw materials needed to carry out his research, and therefore helped him grow.

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-410-page-6.html

And again, going back to the main question of this thread, I still believe that the Vaizards are actually very strong and, clearly, they have yet to show everything they can do. I'm pretty confident in that Kubo still has things planned for them in the future of this manga. We'll see what happens...

Kaiten
August 08, 2010, 08:09 PM
Well the story is not over yet though, is it? Do you really believe that there was no reason behind the vaizards not revealing their bankais? Their roles in bleach are obviously not over yet. Some people speak as if all the characters already had their final battles and bleach was on the verge of ending.

I hope so. I always liked Shiori and Shinji, I may be alone in this but she was the highlight of TGTP to me. I'd be more confident if I knew where the hell the story was going at the moment. I hope they're involved in whatever is after deicide.

kkck
August 08, 2010, 09:16 PM
Wonder if hiyori and lisa have bankai.... timewise and reiatsu there really is not reason for them not to have it considering they were VCs 100 years ago. If the vizards are to have a part in the future arcs I think it'd make more sense if they do have it since they already have revealed their shikais.

Jackk
August 08, 2010, 09:35 PM
Wonder if hiyori and lisa have bankai.... timewise and reiatsu there really is not reason for them not to have it considering they were VCs 100 years ago. If the vizards are to have a part in the future arcs I think it'd make more sense if they do have it since they already have revealed their shikais.

I've wondered this too... like you say it would make more sense for the VC vaizards to have Bankai by now, after 100 years etc. specially if they're to be more involved in future arcs.

I don't think we have actually seen everything they can do with their shikais though, specially Lisa and Hiyori. Those two only released shikai for a moment but didn't really get a chance to show off any abilities that they might have with them... since Aizen intervened and attacked Hallibel himself.

The captain vaizards must definitely have Bankai.

As for the Vice captain vaizards at this point, who knows... but I sure hope they do !

It has been 100 years etc for the VC vaizards to train. and we know that people like Ikkaku and Renji were able to achieve bankai, granted I'm not trying to downplay Ikkaku or Renji, but I also don't really see the VC vaizards as weaklings. Therefore, I do see the possibility of them having Bankai by now. I guess we'll find out eventually...

El Samurai Guapo
August 08, 2010, 11:05 PM
Wonder if hiyori and lisa have bankai.... timewise and reiatsu there really is not reason for them not to have it considering they were VCs 100 years ago. If the vizards are to have a part in the future arcs I think it'd make more sense if they do have it since they already have revealed their shikais.

That is unless they focused more on developing their hollow powers over the course of the 100 years...

...either way, like Jackk said, we've yet to see them in action with their shikai. This situation with Hiyori and Lisa is the same as it is for Kensei and his bankai (we saw the releases but we didn't get to see any of it in action). I'm pretty sure they'd be pretty dangerous to future opponents while fighting with shikai + mask; they're probably around the captain level while in the aforementioned state. In Mashiro and Hachi's cases, we've yet to even witness them fight with their zanpakutous at all, while do know that both of them have a zanpakutou as well since they've both been pictured holding one at one point or another.

I kind of get the feeling that the quality of the VCs during the TBTP era was higher than what it is now. Yeah, this is just a hunch, but looking at the pictures from the new data book at shows the other former VCs, they all look more powerful than the current ones. Lisa's strength was praised by Shunsui, while I've yet to hear a word of Nanao's prowess in combat. Then again, there is Mashiro...she doesn't seem like she was any better as a VC than the likes of Rangiku, Isane, or Momo.

kkck
August 08, 2010, 11:36 PM
I don't think developing their hollow powers would be something so absurdly time consuming that they can't find some spare time in a span of 100 years to develop bankai.... seems a tad exagerated in that sense.

Not sure if the VCs during TBPA were better than the current ones but I don't think the level the current VCs have is what the gotei 13 would normally expect from them. Over the past 100 years aizen has been cautiously taking out captains and VCs (mainly the vizards though)... Who knows if there have been other victims of that caliber. What would have happened if aizen didn't start doing that? Odds are most of the vizards would have kept their positions. But in turn, were would komamura, tousen, gin or soifon be? Since the captain positions they currently have wouldn't have opened in that scenario, logically they couldn't have become captains. In that sense, at most they'd be high ranking seated officers or VCs in their divisions. That would mean there would be several captain level shinigami in each division which is certainly not true right now in the manga. I get the impression aizen's influence has kinda reduced the overall level of the gotei 13.

Nicholas.Sama
August 09, 2010, 12:26 AM
I get the impression aizen's influence has kinda reduced the overall level of the gotei 13.
Well, until his betrayal, not really.

Byakuya is the strongest 6th squad captain ever.
Hitsugaya is a genius
Mayuri is a genius
Soifon was singled out by Yoruichi because of her talent.
Kenpachi killed the Kenpachi before him in one swing.
Komamura, well, he's Komamura.

Then you have the senior captains...
I personally find the current Gotei 13 superior to their TBTP counterparts.

El Samurai Guapo
August 09, 2010, 12:36 AM
Well, until his betrayal, not really.

Byakuya is the strongest 6th squad captain ever.
Hitsugaya is a genius
Mayuri is a genius
Soifon was singled out by Yoruichi because of her talent.
Kenpachi killed the Kenpachi before him in one swing.
Komamura, well, he's Komamura.

Then you have the senior captains...
I personally find the current Gotei 13 superior to their TBTP counterparts.

Byakuya was said to be the strongest of the Kuchiki clan, not the strongest 6th squad captain ever. You're assuming the 6th division has always been held be a Kuchiki.

Histsugaya is a genius, but at this point it's not possible to say he's better than the previous 10th division captain (since he don't know it was as of yet).

Mayuri is a genius too, but let's face it, Kisuke is better in every way.

Ditto for Soi fon and Yoruichi.

Yeah, the new kenpachi is better, I'll give you that one.

Komamura is good, but I don't think he's better than Love.

I'd take Kensei over Kaname too.

The senior captains haven't changed, so they obviously don't count.
Overall I'd say the captains from back then were better.

DEATHBOTT
August 09, 2010, 12:56 AM
I don't think developing their hollow powers would be something so absurdly time consuming that they can't find some spare time in a span of 100 years to develop bankai.... seems a tad exagerated in that sense.

Not sure if the VCs during TBPA were better than the current ones but I don't think the level the current VCs have is what the gotei 13 would normally expect from them. Over the past 100 years aizen has been cautiously taking out captains and VCs (mainly the vizards though)... Who knows if there have been other victims of that caliber. What would have happened if aizen didn't start doing that? Odds are most of the vizards would have kept their positions. But in turn, were would komamura, tousen, gin or soifon be? Since the captain positions they currently have wouldn't have opened in that scenario, logically they couldn't have become captains. In that sense, at most they'd be high ranking seated officers or VCs in their divisions. That would mean there would be several captain level shinigami in each division which is certainly not true right now in the manga. I get the impression aizen's influence has kinda reduced the overall level of the gotei 13.

i presume they would have been promoted to the royal guard. if not i think there would be alot more captain level characters around seeming as shimigami live for long periods of time.

as for the vcs haveing bankai i hope so they atleast showed the amount of prowess hitsu shows when he fights with shikai. i would think if he had charged ww like mashiro unreleased he would have got whomped too.
[hr]

Byakuya was said to be the strongest of the Kuchiki clan, not the strongest 6th squad captain ever. You're assuming the 6th division has always been held be a Kuchiki.

Histsugaya is a genius, but at this point it's not possible to say he's better than the previous 10th division captain (since he don't know it was as of yet).

Mayuri is a genius too, but let's face it, Kisuke is better in every way.

Ditto for Soi fon and Yoruichi.

Yeah, the new kenpachi is better, I'll give you that one.

Komamura is good, but I don't think he's better than Love.

I'd take Kensei over Kaname too.

The senior captains haven't changed, so they obviously don't count.
Overall I'd say the captains from back then were better.

i dont know about kensei being stronger than kaname purely on a shimigami level, kaname's bankai is pretty deadly. i would wait untill you see kensies bankai until you make that desision. also gin beats rose and aizan obviously beats shinji. if you take aizan out though i agree with you old g13 is better.

El Samurai Guapo
August 09, 2010, 01:42 AM
i dont know about kensei being stronger than kaname purely on a shimigami level, kaname's bankai is pretty deadly. i would wait untill you see kensies bankai until you make that desision. also gin beats rose and aizan obviously beats shinji. if you take aizan out though i agree with you old g13 is better.

Well, just like you said I should wait on declaring Kensei stronger than Kaname, I'll say the same about Rose and Gin. Wait until you see Rose's bankai before you say "gin beats rose."

Jackk
August 09, 2010, 01:52 AM
Well, just like you said I should wait on declaring Kensei stronger than Kaname, I'll say the same about Rose and Gin. Wait until you see Rose's bankai before you say "gin beats rose."

lol that's a good point.

I guess we have to wait to see on Kensei's Bankai, and also to see if he can put Mask on top of Bankai, which I think he should be able to... in order to make a more proper comparison with Tousen. And the same would apply for Rose Vs Gin, I think we have definitely seen more from Gin at this point than we have seen from Rose. Sure Gin's Zanpakutou can be deadly, specially in Bankai, but we don't know if there's more to Rose's shikai yet (more sonatas etc.), and we have no idea what Rose's Bankai is, and if he can add Mask to his Bankai, which he probably can. In addition, Rose is older than Gin right? Rose is probably more experience too if that's the case, but yeah... we'll see...

Nicholas.Sama
August 09, 2010, 01:53 AM
Byakuya was said to be the strongest of the Kuchiki clan, not the strongest 6th squad captain ever. You're assuming the 6th division has always been held be a Kuchiki.

Histsugaya is a genius, but at this point it's not possible to say he's better than the previous 10th division captain (since he don't know it was as of yet).

Mayuri is a genius too, but let's face it, Kisuke is better in every way.

Ditto for Soi fon and Yoruichi.

Yeah, the new kenpachi is better, I'll give you that one.

Komamura is good, but I don't think he's better than Love.

I'd take Kensei over Kaname too.

The senior captains haven't changed, so they obviously don't count.
Overall I'd say the captains from back then were better.

Well if we include Aizen, Gin, and Tousen, then current SS would be unstoppable.
Byakuya is still stronger than Ginrei
That's about it in pure advantages.

Without Aizen and Co. SS is significantly weaker.

conn-man
August 09, 2010, 02:13 AM
God, I can't wait to see the vizard captains use bankai and mask at the same time, I have a feeling that it will completly change peoples opinions about them. I think that it will make them stronger than any espada release was, especially shinji, the guys respected by yamamoto after all.

DEATHBOTT
August 09, 2010, 04:16 AM
lol that's a good point.

I guess we have to wait to see on Kensei's Bankai, and also to see if he can put Mask on top of Bankai, which I think he should be able to... in order to make a more proper comparison with Tousen. And the same would apply for Rose Vs Gin, I think we have definitely seen more from Gin at this point than we have seen from Rose. Sure Gin's Zanpakutou can be deadly, specially in Bankai, but we don't know if there's more to Rose's shikai yet (more sonatas etc.), and we have no idea what Rose's Bankai is, and if he can add Mask to his Bankai, which he probably can. In addition, Rose is older than Gin right? Rose is probably more experience too if that's the case, but yeah... we'll see...

i agree probably should wait before we compare kensei/tousen and rose/gin but they should really be compared purely on their shimigami powers (no hollow masks/ressurecions) if we are comparing the old g13 to the new g13.

Hystzen
August 09, 2010, 05:23 AM
yea but according to some people on this forum...ukitake,shunsui,unohana are better than everyone else coz of how long they been shinigami...if it true it should transfer to vizards to they dont seem lazy...so if by this logic most of them surpass the current g13 captains..without mask

AlB
August 12, 2010, 02:59 PM
i dont know about kensei being stronger than kaname purely on a shimigami level, kaname's bankai is pretty deadly. i would wait untill you see kensies bankai until you make that desision. also gin beats rose and aizan obviously beats shinji. if you take aizan out though i agree with you old g13 is better.

forget Tousen's bankai, his Shikai is enough to pwn any char in the vicinity! the guy uses some kinda audio vibrations to contuse opponents, that's the most epic ability in the entire bleach (apart from Kyoka Suigetsu, Sakanade and Katen Kyokotsu) why the hell did he use only once on a wounded Ishida?? we've not seen him use it again!!! yet if he tried using it on Yama they wouldn't even need WW!!! stupid kubo! how can a high reiatsu level save you if you get a concussion in the middle of a full-fledged battle? I swear, if kubo has used that ability more wisely kaname would demonate entire fucking world lol

as for Rose and Gin I'd say that Shikai-wise Rose beats Gin, but since we haven't seen his bankai we can't say for sure.

most of all I hate when people call Rose because he lost a round to Stark. you have to understand that Wolves were the best counter for kinshara one would think of. then again he lost just a round not battle.

ryanzokuken
August 12, 2010, 04:33 PM
forget Tousen's bankai, his Shikai is enough to pwn any char in the vicinity! the guy uses some kinda audio vibrations to contuse opponents, that's the most epic ability in the entire bleach (apart from Kyoka Suigetsu, Sakanade and Katen Kyokotsu) why the hell did he use only once on a wounded Ishida?? we've not seen him use it again!!! yet if he tried using it on Yama they wouldn't even need WW!!! stupid kubo! how can a high reiatsu level save you if you get a concussion in the middle of a full-fledged battle? I swear, if kubo has used that ability more wisely kaname would demonate entire fucking world lol

as for Rose and Gin I'd say that Shikai-wise Rose beats Gin, but since we haven't seen his bankai we can't say for sure.

most of all I hate when people call Rose because he lost a round to Stark. you have to understand that Wolves were the best counter for kinshara one would think of. then again he lost just a round not battle.

....loltwut?

as you said, he knocked a wounded Ishida out. i'm positive that it wouldn't have the same effect on everybody. like everything else in Bleach, it's probably reiatsu-based, and people of decent reiatsu wouldn't just drop upon hearing it. i doubt even most VC's would be instantly incapacitated by that technique alone.

Tengetsu91
August 12, 2010, 04:40 PM
I think that the inner hollows might have an evolution of some kind. It's only a hunch but if you think about it we've seen 2 times that Hichigo has taken him over completely. One was when he was training to control his inner hollow. The way he looked had an adjouchas feel to it. Like the way Grand Fisher looked really, really big......and bulky. Then the second time when Hichigo took over was right after Ichigo was killed by Ulquiourra. At that point maybe Hichigo assumed a form similar to a Vasto Lordes. I'm not saying he released or anything like that. Just that Hichigo evolved. Cause when we see Hichigo again he has a mask of his own this time, albeit having reversed color scheme.

AlB
August 13, 2010, 09:00 AM
....loltwut?

as you said, he knocked a wounded Ishida out. i'm positive that it wouldn't have the same effect on everybody. like everything else in Bleach, it's probably reiatsu-based, and people of decent reiatsu wouldn't just drop upon hearing it. i doubt even most VC's would be instantly incapacitated by that technique alone.

oh well, maybe I just got too carried away :p :D

but then again: it doesn't matter how strong is your reiatsu if your ear-drums are blown off

Crystal Black
August 15, 2010, 06:15 PM
They seem strong but the only one who stands out to me is Shinji. His shikai is Top 5 and he seems to be good at kido aswell. I would go as far as to say he is around Shunsui and Ukitake level.

CBlitz
August 15, 2010, 06:17 PM
for people who trained for a hundred years after being exiled from SS, they aren't particularly strong or awesome. They're fairly disappointing actually, it didn't really matter if they showed up against Aizen or not. Like he said, just more flies to swat away

En Yang Ji
August 15, 2010, 06:31 PM
- I think as far as reiastu is concerned, they're either on par with or higher than Shunsui & Ukitake. Love & Rose were able to take several blows from the wolves. With mask on they definitely have higher reiastu. As far as overall skill is concerned, I think Love and Rose are below Shunsui and Ukitake. I haven't seen enough of Shinji or Kensei to judge them.

Xsoteria
August 16, 2010, 02:18 AM
I always had the feeling that Shinji is a powerhouse. I remember scraps and pieces of Shinji, stuff like, tearing up the illusion to reveal Aizen back in TBTP, or blocking hollow Mashiro's kicks with one hand seemingly effortless.

It could be the anime, I can't remember if that was in the manga though.

ryanzokuken
August 16, 2010, 03:59 AM
I always had the feeling that Shinji is a powerhouse. I remember scraps and pieces of Shinji, stuff like, tearing up the illusion to reveal Aizen back in TBTP, or blocking hollow Mashiro's kicks with one hand seemingly effortless.

It could be the anime, I can't remember if that was in the manga though.

i think he is very strong, all things considered. but he seemed to have fought like an idiot in FKT.

blabbed too much about his shikai, although i can see how revealing *some* of what it reverses could help the illusion confuse the opponent more.

also totally neglected his mask. and no bankai, obviously.

with just his sealed sword, he's just another captain level fighter.
i want to see more of him with his mask, his shikai, and his bankai.
he's my favorite, after all.

jiraiyanindo
August 16, 2010, 02:26 PM
the vizards are stronger than the average captains but fall below the exceptional four: shunsui, ukitake, unohana, and yama. I think the captains were amazed by their strength which would seem to imply that they are above the likes of hitsugaya and co. But they obviously arent close to godzen level.

AlB
August 17, 2010, 08:25 AM
the vizards are stronger than the average captains but fall below the exceptional four: shunsui, ukitake, unohana, and yama. I think the captains were amazed by their strength which would seem to imply that they are above the likes of hitsugaya and co. But they obviously arent close to godzen level.

bellow Yama - definitely
bellow Unohana - how the hell can you know? have you seen her do anything
bellow Ukitake - bellow Ukitake? The Ukitake who's feat so far was playing around with Lillynette? The Ukitake who couldn't even follow WW's movements? while all others had no problem with following kid's movements? (Mashiro, Kensei, Urahara)
bellow Shunsui - debatable and I have debated enough on Shunsui vs Shinji and Shunsui/Uki vs Love/Rose threads so I'm not gonna fall into details I'll just say that if it comes to one-on-one battles I believe only Shinji and Hachi (maybe Kensei too) will be able to take on Shunsui.

ryanzokuken
August 17, 2010, 08:36 AM
bellow Yama - definitely
bellow Unohana - how the hell can you know? have you seen her do anything
bellow Ukitake - bellow Ukitake? The Ukitake who's feat so far was playing around with Lillynette? The Ukitake who couldn't even follow WW's movements? while all others had no problem with following kid's movements? (Mashiro, Kensei, Urahara)
bellow Shunsui - debatable and I have debated enough on Shunsui vs Shinji and Shunsui/Uki vs Love/Rose threads so I'm not gonna fall into details I'll just say that if it comes to one-on-one battles I believe only Shinji and Hachi (maybe Kensei too) will be able to take on Shunsui.

in Ukitake's defense, WW is powerful, but he's mentally retarded. he doesn't know how to fight with skill or control his power. even against Mashiro, his "level" fluctuated heavily. unreleased, sometimes he's not very dangerous, sometimes he'll knock your block off.

whether he has really displayed his power or not, the pile of implications regarding Ukitake's power and experience should be enough.
before showing up in FKT, Urahara hadn't done much to prove himself either, but we knew he was awesome anyways. i think it's the same deal.

i'm not going to say Ukitake or Shunsui are stronger than Shinji, because we don't know enough to do so.

slicc
August 17, 2010, 02:15 PM
I feel that personally above captain level but obviously below Aizen and Ichigo's levels.

I figure that if they actually had progressed as Vizards the way Ichigo progressed, and go thru the same training and kind of battles that Aizen supposedly orchestrated for Ichigo's growth and fully embrace their Hollow/fication. They would be able to stand in the same plane as Ichigo fighting-wise.