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alekosss_kenpachi
October 06, 2006, 01:00 AM
EDIT: Here's the originating thread for this topic. Since the topic had started to digress into kidou arts, I thought this deserved it's own thread. But here's a link back to the originating thread: http://mangahelpers.com/forum/index.php?topic=9166.0 - WL

Kidou can be very very useful..iF Aizen sent flying a captain by just using a single spell(and only a third of its destructive power was released) imagine the effect that a perfect kidou use can have!

poopoomaru
October 06, 2006, 01:34 AM
Well I mean for instance the Kidou he used Number 90 , if that was only a third of its power then at even 75% I would guess that it is an almost guranteed kill. One thing I am a little confused about is that apparently the higher the number the harder and stronger then spell? how come a pre-SS ichigo was able to completely break free from the binding spell #99 ? I would assume that would be the ulitmate spell and it even looke pretty koo , and yet Ichigo ripped through it like it was nothing before he was even close to captain level. Perhaps the flux in power from his Hollow trans was to blame but still I would have hope it would be stronger.

bax
October 06, 2006, 01:44 AM
I think so. I f you see the level of the Kidou rises prportionally to the numbers.

DesiSkull
October 06, 2006, 02:04 AM
@ poopoomaru
i think it was the Way of Binding, Number 1 Sai.. the one Rukia used on Ichigo in the first episode.

poopoomaru
October 06, 2006, 09:51 AM
No I am talking about the one Tessai used on ichigo when he was turning hollow , he called it way of binding #99 , it had the bandages and then the needles and then the giant block falling on his head

DesiSkull
October 06, 2006, 02:56 PM
oh that yeh you are right. it has bandages and then he used song 2 of that binding spell. hehe and thats my display pic. u can see when he come outta the hole with badages and needles on him.
99. 禁 kin - seal, binds the arms of the target with spiritual fabric and iron shafts.
99, part 2. 卍禁 bankin - great seal, The first song wraps the target in a strong fabric, the second song pierces it with metal blades, the final song smashes the target with an immense metal cube.

poopoomaru
October 06, 2006, 09:04 PM
My point being though how weak it seemed , maybe it was Tessai, for intstance on the hundred gate bolts the amount of needles that stab him are far below 100 , so maybe he did not do it right.

Urazz
October 06, 2006, 09:16 PM
I think it also depends on how strong your reiatsu is to effect the strength of the kidou. I think the reason why Aizen's was so strong is because he has a ton of reiatsu so it is really strong. Also, Ichigo was in the process of turning into a vaizard so he was probably at his max potential strength at that moment when Tessai was using those binding spells so he was able to overpower those binding kidou.

kobisaki
October 07, 2006, 03:53 AM
it was bakudo (way of binding) that tessai was using, while it was hadou (destruction) aizen used. those are both kidou but different class of kidou.

glasskatana
October 08, 2006, 05:51 PM
Do we even know how many Kidou there are? I always assumed there are 100 Bakudo and 100 Hadou. Also, what's the difference between Bakudo and Hadou? There seem to be some Bakudo that...well, are used to destroy, not to bind.

bakashijinsan
October 08, 2006, 08:20 PM
perhaps there are different kinds of kidou and other demon arts and for each one, there is a certain level. like [name of demon art insert here] #20 is weaker than [name of demon art insert here] #90

i can see ichigo learning this stuff to some extent but it won't be sufficient enough to cause major damage in battle since we all know ichigo is kind of dull with these kind of stuff.

poopoomaru
October 08, 2006, 10:56 PM
I dont expect Ichigo to ever learn Kidou , not that he needs to , the possibilities for variation are so great in his own that there would be no point in making him master a completely different form fighting

ttxdragon
October 11, 2006, 01:47 PM
I dont expect Ichigo to ever learn Kidou , not that he needs to , the possibilities for variation are so great in his own that there would be no point in making him master a completely different form fighting

i don't expect him learning it either, but i would be greatful if he could...
just think of yoruichis style for using kidou to heighten the physical strength.... it is certainly needed for ichigo to go against aizen, who mastered kidou nearly complete.

and it would make some more variations possible in the fighting... i would certainly love to see at least basic kidou used by ichigo...

WinterLion
October 12, 2006, 02:08 AM
More than anything I would like to see the all different kidou arts. We've only seen a few from each of the hadou and bakudou categories. And I would really like to see more of them.

As for Ichigo learning how to use kidou, imo it's highly unlikely. Ichigo just doesn't know how to control his reiryoku enough to learn kidou. Maybe Kubo will write the story later on so that he learns, but I don't really think so. Ichigo's character isn't really the type that to learn something as intricate as kidou. He's more of a smash-and-bash type.

delapaz13
February 10, 2007, 03:43 AM
the highest level of kidou(we've seen so far)is 99 Black Coffin, Part 1. Seal (禁, kin?) — Binds the arms of a target with spiritual fabric and iron shafts.
99, Part 2. Great seal (卍禁, bankin?) — This spell covers a target from head to toe with spiritual fabric (first song), stabs them with numerous metal blades (second song), and then smashes them with an immense metal cube (final song)
Incantation: First song: halting fabric (shiryū), second song: hundred linked bolts (hyakurensan), final song: great seal of 10,000 forbiddings (bankin taihō).

Used by Tessai Tsukabishi.*


note*he lives with kisuke urahara at the urahara shoten.we have yet to see a level 100 blasting (hadou) spell: the one above is a bakudo (binding spell)

alekosss_kenpachi
February 10, 2007, 12:45 PM
Is it a sure thing that the higher the number the stronger?Cause White lighting (destructive art no4) was preety strong used by byakoua.It even went through ichigo's body!!

poopoomaru
February 10, 2007, 08:54 PM
Is it a sure thing that the higher the number the stronger?Cause White lighting (destructive art no4) was preety strong used by byakoua.It even went through ichigo's body!!


yea but that was point blank, and I think Byakoua is very good with Kidou

juUnior
February 11, 2007, 06:59 AM
yea but that was point blank, and I think Byakoua is very good with Kidou


I think that we all know, that Byakuya is good at kidou. It was shown queite good how he knows when to use such magic. His all around fighter ;p
And I agree, if Aizen was capable of such devastating move kidou shown on captain, then if it was max, it was 110% sure of kill. So basically, shinigami could not to master zapnakutou, but kidou to every aspect via power, and he would also be very powerful muahaha xD

alekosss_kenpachi
February 11, 2007, 07:29 AM
A little off topic but the conclusion is that Aizen is stronger in every aspect.Reiatsu speed Kidou and Zanpakutou abilities..!And when he become a vizard or smth..everything ends.

poopoomaru
February 12, 2007, 07:17 AM
A little off topic but the conclusion is that Aizen is stronger in every aspect.Reiatsu speed Kidou and Zanpakutou abilities..!And when he become a vizard or smth..everything ends.


That is presumably the idea. He has stated that he has reached his complete physical limit in concern to all his powers. Added on top of that his Zanpakuto has the most cheaterific power ever. When he goes Vaizard he will be god-like, and considering his plans with heaven and all that, I suppose that is the very idea =P. consider what kidou like the watcher's tower one would do at full strength, he would be able to own no simply just one or two captains , but all of SS, Earth , and HC would be under his thumb. COurse all that leaves is heaven and hell.

alekosss_kenpachi
February 12, 2007, 09:51 AM
Damn again it is off topic but there is no such a thread to post it..Just HOW stronger has Ichigo have to get?It is obvious that even is his hollow form Ichigo is no match for Aizen(without the use of the hogyokou).Are we going to see some crazy upgrade soon?Otherwise i do not see any chances of Aizen lose.....

The only hope>>>>Zaraki goes bankai mode and removes his eyepatch>>>>Aizen bows by the reiatsu pressure :):)

BigBadBuu
February 13, 2007, 07:29 AM
Kidou probably works sort of like:

Spell_Power ~= Kidou_Lvl + Shinigami_Lvl - IncantationBypass_yes/no*(Kidou_Lvl / Shinigami_Lvl)

^^

Seriously!

So, If you have a powerful shinigami shooting off a low-level spell, it can still be very potent.

If the Shinigami bypasses the Incantation, then the spell losses power or fizzles based on the relationship of the shinigami's level to the spell's true level. So Byakuya doing 'White Lightning' and '6 Colour Prison' w/out the Incantation had little effect on the spells' power, whereas 'Black Sarcophagus' lost 66% of it's power when Aizen attempted the same.

-Buu

juUnior
February 13, 2007, 10:01 AM
Kidou probably works sort of like:

Spell_Power ~= Kidou_Lvl + Shinigami_Lvl - IncantationBypass_yes/no*(Kidou_Lvl / Shinigami_Lvl)


Of kors I like that idea, and probably it's like that.



So Byakuya doing 'White Lightning' and '6 Colour Prison' w/out the Incantation had little effect on the spells' power, whereas 'Black Sarcophagus' lost 66% of it's power when Aizen attempted the same.


It's true, but we don't know how the spells are powerful, or not due to that Byakuya and Aizen did this with differnet spells ;p

Maybe I'm not objective, because Byakuya is one of my favourites characters ;p

Tsukisama
April 30, 2008, 04:14 AM
This seems to be an interesting discussion; so, I'm reviving it. :p (I would suggest going through old threads to other users; there are actually a lot of gems hidden away in the old pages.)

We have seen so far seen the following kidou:

-Bakudo: 1, 4, 9, 58, 61, 75, 77, 81, 99
-Hado: 1, 4, 31, 33, 63, 90
-Unnamed healing kidou
-Shiba clan kidou (Kukaku's "blast spells" and Ganju's seppa)
-Other unnumbered kidou (hakufuku, kyomon, hanki)
-Performances of the Kidou Corps: opening the senkaimon and activating the Soukyoku (I am not sure if this was Kidou Corps' doing, but it looked like them doing it)

This leads to several questions/discussion points:

1) We really know very little about kidou as of yet. Do you think that there is only kidou spells ranging from 1-99? Is healing kidou are separate subset? Do you think that the Shiba clan's kidou is unknown by SS, and if so, how is this allowed? Do you think that it is possible to develop new kidou spells?

2) It has been noted before that Kubo has used kidou as yet another deus ex machina to get out of situations without much explanation (refer to Byakuya's convenient use of danku to block Zommari's powers). How do you feel about Kubo's vagueness on this extremely potent area of shinigami combat? Is he purposefully being vague to pull out kidou at times of his convenience, or is he really just trying to reveal each kidou spell in a meaningful way, eventually revealing them all?

3) So far, the Kidou Corps has been the only one of the three branches of the SS army (others are Gotei 13 and Covert Ops) to receive almost no attention. What do you think they do? Do you think that the mystery surrounding this group is going to lead to some sort of major development in the future?

patedecarne
April 30, 2008, 11:18 AM
Well, Tsuki, I thought that maybe the mods wouldn't like to revive past topics, but if there's no problem with this, I'll search for something interesting here in biblioteca!!

About the subject, I believe the known spells named from 1 until 99 aren't all the spells in the shinigami world, I believe these spells are the officially recognized by some law;

But I don't think that Kubo used dankuu in a convenient way, because Byakuya is powerful with spells, then I believe there's no problem to him to use level 80 so easily; and now, that the war is beginning, i'm sure we'll see some powerful spells, personally I believe that we'll see at least level 80 or above, because the warriors now are too powerful to use low spells

Raizen
April 30, 2008, 03:39 PM
We are definitely going to see some extremely high level kido. Both ukitake and Shunsui have maxed out their kido category. Also unohana too along with yama.

As for pulling kido out of nowhere, I believe that most authors do that if they see fit. When byakuya used that level 81 spell, I was not surprised at all b/c byakuya has been shown a master of kido.

What really puzzle me is what level is the spell hitsu used to protect hinamori, even matsumoto said it was a very powerful spell

Tsukisama
April 30, 2008, 04:20 PM
Well, Tsuki, I thought that maybe the mods wouldn't like to revive past topics, but if there's no problem with this, I'll search for something interesting here in biblioteca!!

About the subject, I believe the known spells named from 1 until 99 aren't all the spells in the shinigami world, I believe these spells are the officially recognized by some law;

But I don't think that Kubo used dankuu in a convenient way, because Byakuya is powerful with spells, then I believe there's no problem to him to use level 80 so easily; and now, that the war is beginning, i'm sure we'll see some powerful spells, personally I believe that we'll see at least level 80 or above, because the warriors now are too powerful to use low spells

I would say that you should use your good judgment when reviving old threads. There are quite a few good threads back there, and it would definitely be nicer IMO if users did not make threads for things when there already is one, causing thread inflation. At the same time, don't revive a dead thread with your post unless you think both that your post is something very meaningful (not just a one-liner or spam) and that your new post will generate enough discussion to warrant reviving the thread.

There is probably more kidou than spells 1-99, but whether most shinigami know them is another matter. (I could see the Kidou Corps, whose tasks I imagine include experimenting and expanding the boundaries of kidou, thus creating new spells, might know non 1-99 spells, but others I would doubt knowing many, if any at all.) I am thinking that healing is not a type of bakudo but another type of kidou entirely, and perhaps there are various spells associated with it besides the generic glowing-healing hand trick we have seen so far.

I find your notion of the 1-99 hado and bakudo spells being the officially approved spells interesting. I could definitely imagine some sort of bureaucractic committee that meets to decide which spells get official approval and which do not. That is definitely a way to explain away traditional clan spells like those of the Shiba, but it then raises the question of just how hard it is to create a new kidou spell. I would have thought that it must be some arduous process that only highly trained individuals like in the Kidou Corps could accomplish, but if others (even those of the noble clans) can create spells of their own, then the process must not required the level of specialization I imagined (probably still rather difficult but people who have not devoted their lives to kidou could come up with something).

Byakuya knowing a spell of that level is not what I was saying was convenient, but rather that a spell that could work so perfectly against an opponent's ability could introduced like that. Zommari's amor seemed very formiddable and then dankuu, a spell that just so happened to completely nullify Zommari's amor, was introduced out of thin air with no prior indication that arrancar abilities work like kidou or any prior event that would make Byakuya's sudden use of this spell seem like it was the appropriate thing to do. (There is a big difference between the author simply surprising the audience and deus ex machina when done correctly.) I just hope that there aren't any other situations where the character is in a fix and then a solve-everything kidou spell gets introduced out of nowhere under the pretense that the character knew all along about it.

As for the future role of the Kidou Corps, it really is hard to say. There has been speculation that Hachi is a member of the Kidou Corps (especially from his picture of him during the gaiden, in which some claim that the tattoo on his head is the symbol of the Kidou Corps), which might be an avenue in which to introduce this unit, but even then I don't see an ultimate purpose for it. We have always been getting info about Gotei 13, and the information about Covert Ops has usually been related to something important (like learning about Yoruichi's past and now with the introduction of "special detention"). I just wonder what if anything could the Kidou Corps add at this point. It could be just about anything given the obscurity in which they have been kept (easily opening up for another Kubo pulls-something-out-of-his-rear plot devices).

IchigoSoul
May 05, 2008, 07:47 AM
Nice post^

1-99 shouldnt be the limited...If Urahara can invent something more, the kidou corps can do it too, just that they dont want to share it...Maybe its classfied as the forbidden spells.

Digital Mage
May 09, 2008, 12:31 PM
It sort of occurs to me that as the number goes up, the more complicated the spell may become. It's destructive power could be more based on the spiritual energy used.

There's 4, white lightning. All it is, is a bolt of energy, like lightning. But when Byakuya uses it, he uses a high amount of spiritual energy, giving it a highly devastating effect. Probably much moreso than a low level shinigami using 33, Shakkahou (I don't know its translation).

As such, the higher level spells, such as 99, black coffin require better control over spiritual power, which usually comes in turn with an overall higher level.

So the total devastative power relies always on the user.

Cykai
December 26, 2008, 12:01 PM
Aizen is powerful but not that powerful to justify some stupid speech being around here........

ex.
That http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/176/13/ after he used Kurohitsugi blast spell 90,and Gin asked him when did he learn that,he answered that it hadn't reached even one/third of his full potential......what does it mean for u ???

For me that there are/there were people with enough strenght/reiatsu to use the ninety to their full potential.....


really? because we haven't seen anyone do so.
aizen used a super high level hado w/o the incantation; thats why gin was so impressed. tensei used a 99 BAKUDO w/ the incantation,you see? a bakudo and hado are two differnt things; bakudo are binding spells while hado are offensive, and since hados' are much harder to pull off than bakudo... see where i'm getting at?

Yans86
December 26, 2008, 12:13 PM
If the are Hadou above 90,means that someone used them also in the past.....if he says that is nowhere close to one/third of his potencial means that there were or there are persons able to use them at full potencial......it's easy....who invented those hadou must have used them at full potencial.....don't be silly,come on!!

Andonan
December 26, 2008, 12:16 PM
I'm fairly sure Tensei could do hado high 90's with incant.....

Yans86
December 26, 2008, 03:45 PM
really? because we haven't seen anyone do so.
aizen used a super high level hado w/o the incantation; thats why gin was so impressed. tensei used a 99 BAKUDO w/ the incantation,you see? a bakudo and hado are two differnt things; bakudo are binding spells while hado are offensive, and since hados' are much harder to pull off than bakudo... see where i'm getting at?

I know very well that Hadou and Bakudo are different things,thx :-D

Of course Gin was impressed,it's not like everyone is able to use Hadou from 90 and above....and even if u can use that, is not like u can use it at full potential, if u don't have the ability to do that...do u see my point??

AIZEN himself,stated that it wasn't even at 1/3 of his potential cause it's hard to use them,but do u really think that in the story of SS there weren't even a shinigami able to use them at full power?
who invented those Hadou from 90 and above???
How can Aizen say that it wasn't a full potencial?????

Is not like he was him that invented it,he studied it somewhere(another person) or a book,and he know that a full potencial hadou 90 is 3 times stronger than his and works better than his....

Tessai able to use Hadou above 90 at full potencial?why not,is the Kidou captain.....but can u really think and say that also people like Ukitake/Kyouraku/Unohana/Old Yama aren't able to use Hadou 90/above at least like Aizen if not even better?????

Please answer me......

ryanzokuken
December 26, 2008, 05:56 PM
really? because we haven't seen anyone do so.
aizen used a super high level hado w/o the incantation; thats why gin was so impressed. tensei used a 99 BAKUDO w/ the incantation,you see? a bakudo and hado are two differnt things; bakudo are binding spells while hado are offensive, and since hados' are much harder to pull off than bakudo... see where i'm getting at?

yes, they're different, but when and where was it ever said that hado are harder to cast than bakudo?

Cykai
December 26, 2008, 06:04 PM
I know very well that Hadou and Bakudo are different things,thx :-D

Of course Gin was impressed,it's not like everyone is able to use Hadou from 90 and above....and even if u can use that, is not like u can use it at full potential, if u don't have the ability to do that...do u see my point??

AIZEN himself,stated that it wasn't even at 1/3 of his potential cause it's hard to use them,but do u really think that in the story of SS there weren't even a shinigami able to use them at full power?
who invented those Hadou from 90 and above???
How can Aizen say that it wasn't a full potencial?????

Is not like he was him that invented it,he studied it somewhere(another person) or a book,and he know that a full potencial hadou 90 is 3 times stronger than his and works better than his....

Tessai able to use Hadou above 90 at full potencial?why not,is the Kidou captain.....but can u really think and say that also people like Ukitake/Kyouraku/Unohana/Old Yama aren't able to use Hadou 90/above at least like Aizen if not even better?????

Please answer me......
can they? we've never seen them do so.

Yans86
December 26, 2008, 06:31 PM
can they? we've never seen them do so.

So Aizen is the best of the best in casting Hadou maybe only after Tessai ah haah ah aha haha hahah thx for the statement!!!!!!!Now I can see everything differently.....clap clap clap

king_crimson-
December 27, 2008, 01:28 AM
duh...i don't think the spell's power would change based on the caster's power..at best it would change by a small margin(to put it into numbers, let's say that hado #90 has a power of 10, a weak captain capable of casting it might be able to cast it only at 8...but not lower, and definitely not higher than 10)...it's a spell afterall, it should be "complete"...

as for how aizen can know that his hadou #90 was less than 1/3 as powerful as it should be, well, he knows the spell, guess he knows how powerful it is if cast normally...

and, the kidou corps should theorically be the best at using kidou...well, aizen did say that he reached the limit of his powers as a shinigami....

also, reiatsu isn't like dbz's battle level at all, 'coz in bleach you have peoples with abilities that trumps it...i mean, we all know that if tousen wasn't an ass, he would have most likely decapitated zaraki with the firts hit after going bankai....and tousen as a captain clearly had a much weaker reiatsu than kenpachi...better yet, to use an analogy with type-moon works, reiatsu can be put into numbers, thus it matters only as far as we talk about abilities than can be put into numbers(like ichigo's bankai) but it is trumped by special abilities that cannot....

darksaint124
December 27, 2008, 04:33 AM
Guess I have to say this again.
The reason why the kidou only reached 1/3 power is because Aizen used it without incantation.

With incantation it would have reached full power.

Do I have to go over the importance of, "knowing the name will bring forth more power than not knowing it?"

Forever_Melody
December 27, 2008, 07:42 AM
Guess I have to say this again.
The reason why the kidou only reached 1/3 power is because Aizen used it without incantation.

With incantation it would have reached full power.

Do I have to go over the importance of, "knowing the name will bring forth more power than not knowing it?"

The incantation is not the name. The name of the Kidou spell is still mentioned even when using incantation-less Kuidou because of what you said...

Also, Byakuya's spells without incantation seem to be just as powerful as Rukia's who DO have an incantation. Take the Rikujou Kouro Bakudou spell(Six Pillars of Light). It seems equally powerful when Byakuya or Rukia uses them.

Also note the Dankuu Bakudou spell which is stated to be able to block Hadous under the 90th level. This is a property of the Bakudou. If that were the power of it at full strength(and therefore with incantation), how come Aizen was able to block an 88th level Hadou?

Aonsaithya
December 27, 2008, 12:16 PM
I believe that (most) kidou spells scale with reiatsu. A bit like in some games, you have a spell that does X amount of damage. You may get the ring of more damage, or your character just improves, either adding a 1.1x-multiplier or some +damage to the spell.
Look at http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/142/05/
That's the 33rd destruction spell, and the explosion is insane. It may not have the intensity of a, say, Getsuga Tenshou, but it's still huge. And he skipped the incantation.
Also, Byakuya seems to like using the lightning-spell (I can't remember the name now), and even though it's something like number 4 or so, it's very potent because the user is potent as well.
The result is likely derived from experience, potential (how much reiatsu available) and incantation/skipping it.

If some average character was capable of using the Dankuu, I believe that some higher-up character could break through it with a under 90 Hadou.
I wonder whether it'd work vice versa (i.e. you could block a over 90 Hadou with the Dankuu if you are powerful enough), or whether the Dankuu spell just has a limit at blockin 90s.

Also, it would be nice to be able to assume that skipping the incantation takes away about 2/3 of the spell's power, but I don't think we can be certain of it yet.
If incantation bypass results in just 33% power released, multiply the incantation-less Soukatsui's effect ( http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/142/05/ ) by three .

Forever_Melody
December 27, 2008, 06:29 PM
Well I believe it depends on the spell. The fact that Bykauya specifically said "this spell blocks" IMO implies it's a property of the spell. Just like saying a spell has the property to inflict x condition, the condition's strength doesn't scale with power(at least in most games) since it is a property the spell inflicts.

In the same way, I believe Dankuu probably has a threshold limit as to when someone can use it. Say you need x amount of experience/proficiency/reiatsu to use it and anything under will simply not yield a spell at all rather than yield a weaker spell.

Also, am I the only one who thinks Hadou is majorly overpowered when compared to Bakudou?? :blink

I mean, a 90th level Hadou by Aizen was able to take out a Captain level Shinigami at 1/3 of its power while a 99th level Bakudou by Tessai was unable to hold Ichigo when he turned into a Shinigami/Hollow back at Urahara's shop.

Eddy01741
December 27, 2008, 07:40 PM
I wouldn't say that skipping incantation would make it 66% less powerful. ANd the power of kidou definitely depend on the power of the user (likely to a certain limit though). A shinigami academy student couldn't do a kidou nearly as strong as a shinigami captain, but I would say that the difference in power between a hadou #4 performed by byakuya and yama wouldn't be very different (since they can likely use the kidou at its fullest potential).

It was demonstrated by Renji in Momo's mini-gaiden that you can just simply be awful at kidou. And a hadou #33 from Renji would both be weak and uncontrollable, compared to Byakuya's, which was extremely powerful even without incantation.

So my theory is that lower level kidou, while able to be performed by many shinigami, it's power scales with the user so those like Byakuya can use it to its fullest potential even without incanting.

Then for higher level kidou like hadou 90. I'd say that such a powerful kidou takes some serious mastery to use, if Aizen couldn't even bring out the full potential of it (although he decided not to incant) shows how hard it is to control, and according to he himself, he is at the limit of his shinigami powers, so his kidou mastery should be very high. Likely a kidou corps captain could probably perform hadou 90 without incantation at 100% power, but for most shinigami in the 13 court protection squads, it's probably nigh impossible.

So basically, my way of seeing it for all kidou is that all kidou will scale with the kidou mastery of the user up to a certain limit. So to put this into numbers, lets take hadou #4 for example first:

We shall assume that at full potential hadou 4 will do 100 damage. Now, the following people use it (this is all hypothetical, so not exact levels):

Renji: Tries to use hadou 4 and only ends up with 15 damage

Kira: Tries to use hadou 4 and only ends up with 70 damage

Byakuya: Tries to use hadou 4 and ends up with 100 damage

Tessai: Tries to use hadou 4 and ends up with 100 damage

So basically, the way I see it is that kidou have a limit to their power, but if the limit is not reached it scales with kidou mastery of the user.

Now lets take hadou 90:

We will assume that it's full power is say... 1000 damage.

Renji: Tries to use hadou 90 and either fails, misses the target, casts it on himself, or does maybe 15 damage to the target if he manages not to do any of the things mentioned above.

Kira: Tries to use hadou 90 and might also not be able to cast it at all due to low mastery, as well as low accuracy and control, but if he manages to pull it off, he might do 70 damage with it.

Aizen: Tries to use hadou 90 (without incantation lets say) and ends up with 333 damage since he can't properly control it (at least without incanting).

Tessai: Tries to use hadou 90 and ends up with 1000 since he is a kidou corps captain and has spectacular levels of kidou mastery.


That's just my view on it.

Forever_Melody
December 27, 2008, 07:49 PM
Yeah I like Eddy's analysis ^_^

To a certain extent I'm sure a Kidou's power scales with the user, but the spell itself(in the way it is built) probably has its own limits which will be reached if the user has enough proficiency. That's why even if the best Kidou user in the world used Hadou #1, he/she wouldn't be able to match the power of a mildly skilled Hadou #33 simply because Hadou #1 has its own limitations in terns of power and abilities.

I still think Hadous seem loads more powerful than Bakudous in terms of overall performance.

Also, any idea who created Kidou and how it came to be? I mean, someone must've thought up the method to weave your reiatsu in a certain way to achieve x effect and someone must've also created the incantations. The manga doesn't state it though...

Aonsaithya
December 27, 2008, 09:25 PM
I suppose the Kidou Corps would know, I hope we get more background on them.
I hope we get more background on everything. What if Kubo focused on the story and delegated the drawing to someone else? :D

I suppose the "scales until the max potential of the spell" is the best one so far.
(If not, I want to see Yamamoto do some kidou...)

Good point about the Bakudous vs Hadous, so far the only Bakudou not shown to suck (in combat) has been Rikujoukoro (orwhatever-wordmonster)? Pretty much all the other binding spells have been broken by their targets with relative ease.

Onomatopoeia
December 27, 2008, 10:49 PM
I'd like to point out that Incantation is actually an extremely important part of the Kidou spell. Once just has to look at the Black Coffin Kidou in question to see just how important Incantation is.

Right after the spell Gin started talking to Aizen and he was impressed that he could skip the incantation. He was even surprised and this is a guy who knows full well what Aizen is capable of he even goes so far to ask him when he started to be able to do that.

The fact that Gin also said that he could now skip the spell incantation, instead of asking when he could do lvl 90 spells in general hints that Aizen could do it before however with Incantation in fact Gin isn't impressed by the lvl 90 spell but instead seems surprised at the fact that their was no incantation to that lvl 90 spell. To continue it also seems that Aizen knows full well just how powerful a full power Black Coffin is and goes so far to give it a number of 1/3rd. Thats not something that someone could know from a book where they would only describe the effects and what it does, an exact number comes from seeing it before, likely considering all things something he'd done before.

To continue the next panel also mentions that "In the 90's level spells are more difficult to handle after all", however this should be a given considering that the spells get harder over time however it would seem that level 90 spells are on a whole different level when it comes to doing it incantationless spell especially if Gin's surprise at Aizen's skipping of the incantation is considered. This isn't really surprising since I think I read somewhere that 90 Kidou spells had their own special names.

With this knowledge it seems likely that as spells continue upwards and get harder and harder to do incantationless until we get to 90 lvl spells where people like Aizen can only get it to 1/3rd of their power. Or heck it's likely that lvl 90 spells in general are near impossible to do in general.

I'm curious to see other people's opinions of this.

darksaint124
December 28, 2008, 02:33 AM
I'd like to point out that Incantation is actually an extremely important part of the Kidou spell. Once just has to look at the Black Coffin Kidou in question to see just how important Incantation is.

Right after the spell Gin started talking to Aizen and he was impressed that he could skip the incantation. He was even surprised and this is a guy who knows full well what Aizen is capable of he even goes so far to ask him when he started to be able to do that.

The fact that Gin also said that he could now skip the spell incantation, instead of asking when he could do lvl 90 spells in general hints that Aizen could do it before however with Incantation in fact Gin isn't impressed by the lvl 90 spell but instead seems surprised at the fact that their was no incantation to that lvl 90 spell. But to continue it also seems that Aizen knows full well just how powerful a full power Black Coffin is and goes so far to give it a number of 1/3rd. Thats not something that someone could know from a book where they would only describe the effects and what it does, an exact number comes from seeing it before, likely considering all things something he'd done before.

To continue the next panel also mentions that "In the 90's level spells are more difficult to handle after all", however this should be a given considering that the spells get harder over time however it would seem that level 90 spells are on a whole different level when it comes to doing it incantationless spell especially if Gin's surprise at Aizen's skipping of the incantation is considered. This isn't really surprising since I think I read somewhere that 90 Kidou spells had their own special names.

With this knowledge it seems likely that as spells continue upwards and get harder and harder to do incantationless until we get to 90 lvl spells where people like Aizen can only get it to 1/3rd of their power. Or heck it's likely that lvl 90 spells in general are near impossible to do in general.

I'm curious to see other people's opinions of this.

This is actually what I was trying to bring across.
When I said "knowing the name is different than not knowing it," I meant with the incantation.
All the info is in the chapters, I'm surprised you were the only other person to see this, although I could have worded it better.

Forever_Melody
December 28, 2008, 10:41 AM
Well I'm guessing skipping the incantation makes a Kidou harder to use properly since the incantation is probably like hand seals in the Naruto manga, something which helps you weave and mold your energy properly into the needed spell. Therefore, without this "guide", it'd probably be harder and some people would probably tone down the spell so they could still cast it. After all, you gain a significant advantage in casting a spell instantly than taking a few seconds to recite a chant.

Also, I think Hadous are significantly harder than Bakudous as we see Hachi being able to use Bakudou 99 without an incantation and it seems the Bakudou was successful. Granted that Hachi is a Kidou corps vice-captain, but still...

Eddy01741
December 28, 2008, 12:22 PM
I think when Aizen said that he only reached 1/3rd the potential of the hadou 90, that doesn't NECESSARILY mean he can do it at full power with incantation, although that is certainly a possibility. He may have seen a kidou corps member do it or maybe researched the kidou himself, who knows.

Forever_Melody
December 28, 2008, 04:16 PM
It doesn't, but at the very least it means Aizen has a rough idea of what the full power should be. Also, is it confirmed that Kidou stops at level 99? I can't find a manga reference which says it doesn't go over 100. I know it talks of Kidous beyond 90, but doesn't refer if it goes past 100...

Anyone have any opinions on Hadous vs Bakudous?

Eddy01741
December 28, 2008, 06:28 PM
Bakudous... well, all the ones we've seen so far besides dankuu (which was cited by Tessai to be an forbidden Bakudou IIRC, even though Byakuya used it later) are just binding spells, to incapacitate the target (for at least a short amount of time). I agree that simply hurting them could probably serve more use than incapacitating them in battle, although Byakuya has shown great use of the six rod prison thing when used against Renji (no incantation and all and he completely immobilized Renji for a ending strike with his Bankai). I supposed that Bakudou are good to buy time for a more powerful attack, heck, you might be able to use bakudou to give yourself time to incant for a strong hadou, then again, against a strong enough opponent, they'd probably break out of the bakudou pretty easily.

If there were more bakudou like Dankuu, which arn't for binding but rather for defense, then they wouldn't be that bad.

Exodi
December 28, 2008, 06:43 PM
Bakudous... well, all the ones we've seen so far besides dankuu (which was cited by Tessai to be an forbidden Bakudou IIRC, even though Byakuya used it later) are just binding spells, to incapacitate the target (for at least a short amount of time). I agree that simply hurting them could probably serve more use than incapacitating them in battle, although Byakuya has shown great use of the six rod prison thing when used against Renji (no incantation and all and he completely immobilized Renji for a ending strike with his Bankai). I supposed that Bakudou are good to buy time for a more powerful attack, heck, you might be able to use bakudou to give yourself time to incant for a strong hadou, then again, against a strong enough opponent, they'd probably break out of the bakudou pretty easily.

If there were more bakudou like Dankuu, which arn't for binding but rather for defense, then they wouldn't be that bad.

This is also how I view Bakudou. And I see Hadou being spells that directly do damage to the opponent, that is, the spell itself is what harms the opponent.

Forever_Melody
December 28, 2008, 07:01 PM
Bakudou are more utility spells though. Things like Bakudou #77(Tenteikuura) serve no purpose in actual battle since all that spell does is communicate to people in an area.

I'm also speaking of the difficulty of both types of spells. Aizen, a captain who has supposedly achieved his limit as a shinigami, had trouble casting an incantation-less #90 Hadou spell at full power, while Hachi, a Kidou corps vice-captain, was able to csat an incantation-less #99 Bakudou spell without much trouble.

Let's not forget the actual effect of those spells. A 1/3 Hadou#90 took out a Shinigami Captain while a Bakudou#99 could not contain Ichigo when he transformed into a hollow/shinigami.

Seems to me Bakudou is basically every other spell that didn't fit into the "direct attack" category and are not necessarily on the same level.

Gecko Moria
December 29, 2008, 04:16 AM
Kidou is hackz spells, the higher the number the more insane the move gets. Aizen's Balck Coffin attack pwned Komamura and it wasnt even at full strength, didnt take him much effort to do it either.

Raizen
December 29, 2008, 10:52 PM
I think aizen used the spell at his best and yet it still didn't reach full power. Like everyone has a limit aizen has one too. So someone who may not necessarily be stronger than aizen overall, may be able to use that spell at full power w/o the incantation, like tessai

darksaint124
December 30, 2008, 03:53 AM
Please stop speculating and go back and read the chapter.

I don't get how so many people are getting different interpretations from 1 thing.
He skipped incantation, and he admittedly said "it failed." Where does "that is the most he could do with it" come from?

Incantation is a big part of it, everyone that reads Bleach should know this. It is not a 60's level like Byakuya throws around, or 30's like Rukia does. Its in the 90's. It is stated in canon that they are harder to control and just being able to use one without incantation shows massive control of kidou.

He never said he can only get 1/3 of its potential. He said, "No, it failed. "The power of that blast did not even reach 1/3 of its full potential."

How would he know its full potential if he hasn't done it to its full potential. I seriously doubt that is something you get from watching someone do it.(Where do these ideas come from?)

Wasn't Aizen one of the most secretive shinigami during his time in SS. Who is he watching do these things?

Making up stuff does not make it fact.

Eddy01741
December 30, 2008, 01:05 PM
THe way I see it when Aizen did his hadou 90, that was the most power he could get out of it by skipping the incantation, had he incanted before, maybe he could have gotten it up to 100% power, who knows.

Tsukisama
December 30, 2008, 08:24 PM
I'm also speaking of the difficulty of both types of spells. Aizen, a captain who has supposedly achieved his limit as a shinigami, had trouble casting an incantation-less #90 Hadou spell at full power, while Hachi, a Kidou corps vice-captain, was able to csat an incantation-less #99 Bakudou spell without much trouble.

Let's not forget the actual effect of those spells. A 1/3 Hadou#90 took out a Shinigami Captain while a Bakudou#99 could not contain Ichigo when he transformed into a hollow/shinigami.

Seems to me Bakudou is basically every other spell that didn't fit into the "direct attack" category and are not necessarily on the same level.

I think that the bakudou and hadou are equally difficult to cast. Although Hachi cast Bakudou #99, he looked quite exhausted after doing so and received praise for being able to do that. So, it was not like it was a small matter that he could do that.

As for Ichigo not being contained by that spell after all three of the stages of the spell were cast, I think that is more of a testament of how strong Ichigo's hollow was. Kensei's hollow was effectively contained by the spell, which I think was done to show the hint at Ichigo's vizard nature being different and producing greater than the other vizards.

Onomatopoeia
December 30, 2008, 08:27 PM
I'd like to bring a hypothesis I have on Bakudo's in that the binding spells such as #99 or #75 or any binding spell in particular can be broken out by pure strength.

Tsukisama
December 30, 2008, 08:33 PM
I'd like to bring a hypothesis I have on Bakudo's in that the binding spells such as #99 or #75 or any binding spell in particular can be broken out by pure strength.

I would agree with that. The examples of bakudou that have been overpowered in the manga seem to support that. They are just the same as anything else made of reishi, and a strong enough force should be enough to overcome them.

Eddy01741
December 30, 2008, 08:45 PM
Well, that was kind of obvious from the start. Ichigo broke out of Rukia's Bakudou 1 in th every beginning of the manga, and he was just a human. Then Ichigo's hollow was breaking out of bakudou 99. In Hueco Mundo Aaroniero eventually broke out of RUkia's bakudou (61 IIRC), in his second hollow transformation Ichigo broke out of the bakudou Hachi originally cast (the big steel pillars thing).

Forever_Melody
December 31, 2008, 07:13 AM
Well we've had testaments of every Bakudou binding spell so far far being broken by force, but note force and strength aren't the same. Hachi states that he'd never seen any Bakudou in the 60s being broken by pure physical force, implying that it probably takes a considerable amount of reiatsu to break out of the upper level Bakudous.

I'm assuming Hadous have a similar effect in that if your reiatsu is strong enough, you can either deflect or come out unscathed from a Bakudou. After all, Kidou is a concentration of reishi in a certain manner and we've seen that Shinigami captains can deflect concentrated reishi blasts such as Ceros with their bare hands so it's very well possible.

Oh and Tsukisama, I somewhat agree wit your point, but note Aizen's Hadou 90 was specifically stated to be weaker than a full powered one, while Hachi's Bakudou 99 was not stated to be a weaker version.

Now, assuming there is a gap between the 9 levels separating them, you'd expect a 99 spell to be harder than a 90 spell in rough general terms, yet what the manga provides us seems to either put them on par if not place Hadou 90 slightly above. Unless Hachi was that much more proficient in Kidou than Aizen (which is possible considering he was a Kidou corps vice-captain), then this would imply that the higher level Hadous are harder to control than Bakudous.

Onomatopoeia
December 31, 2008, 02:09 PM
Well we've had testaments of every Bakudou binding spell so far far being broken by force, but note force and strength aren't the same. Hachi states that he'd never seen any Bakudou in the 60s being broken by pure physical force, implying that it probably takes a considerable amount of reiatsu to break out of the upper level Bakudous.

I'm assuming Hadous have a similar effect in that if your reiatsu is strong enough, you can either deflect or come out unscathed from a Bakudou. After all, Kidou is a concentration of reishi in a certain manner and we've seen that Shinigami captains can deflect concentrated reishi blasts such as Ceros with their bare hands so it's very well possible.


When did Hachi state that he'd never seen any Bakudou in the 60's being broken by physical force? Because if he stated it somewhere then that just means he's never seen someone that strong before(not really surprising).

Here we have Ichigo getting up despite the weight (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/218/15/) thats a pretty physical movement since he had to get up to it. It's also Bakudo #75(which he stated the incantation for). While I'm not denying that he had to pump himself up with Reaitsu to do it his Reaitsu was still pumping up his strength. If someone with comparable strength/greater strength say Sennin Naruto was in the same situation the same thing would happen except without the Reaitsu.

I could calc the weight of the the pillars actually...

Just need a place to download Gimp.

Eddy01741
December 31, 2008, 06:07 PM
Bleach is kinda wierd in that reiatsu can sometimes be the same as physical strength. THe reason that Kenpachi's so strong and his skin is so durable ( to take strikes from ichigo unscathed) is because of his huge uncontrollable reiatsu, not because his muscles were incredibly strong, nor because his skin was so strong.

So when I say that, i mean it in saying if Hachi had trapped say... a regular human that was a body builder (immense physical strength), I would highly doubt that the bodybuilder could escape the bakudou 75 by just using his muscles, as he has probably no reiatsu.

Forever_Melody
December 31, 2008, 06:22 PM
When did Hachi state that he'd never seen any Bakudou in the 60's being broken by physical force? Because if he stated it somewhere then that just means he's never seen someone that strong before(not really surprising).
Right here: Click me (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.08/17/)
Hachi states he's never seen physical force breaking a 60s Bakudou binding spell.


Here we have Ichigo getting up despite the weight (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/218/15/) thats a pretty physical movement since he had to get up to it. It's also Bakudo #75(which he stated the incantation for). While I'm not denying that he had to pump himself up with Reaitsu to do it his Reaitsu was still pumping up his strength. If someone with comparable strength/greater strength say Sennin Naruto was in the same situation the same thing would happen except without the Reaitsu.

As Eddy said, it's hard to distinguish what Hachi said because physical strength(due to muscles) and reiatsu induced strength might be two different things. For example, we see how easily Kenpachi can slice and break through stuff when he takes off his eyepatch due to the greater flow of reiatsu through his body(also seen as to the strength of his slashes when using Kendo), but his muscles don't actually physically become bigger.

As for hollows, it's unknown if their strength is reiatsu induced or not, hence perhaps what Hachi said.

Your idea seems quite correct, although I'd say it works both ways. It's like Kenpachi said, when two reiatsus clash, the weaker one gets hurt.

A Kidou spell is a special concentrated form of reiatsu so if it is weaker than its intended target, it will break/deflect/not be lethal. Therefore, Kidou(Hadou and Bakudou) can probably both be defeated if your reiatsu levels are strong enough.

For example, Kyouraku was able to easily deflect Chad's punches with his bare hands the first time they met because his reiatsu was stronger than the one in Chad's punches.

This also explains how people such as Kenpachi, Ukitake and Nell can deflect Cero blasts with their bare hands without significant sign of injury.

Onomatopoeia
December 31, 2008, 08:46 PM
Right here: Click me (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.08/17/)
Hachi states he's never seen physical force breaking a 60s Bakudou binding spell.



As Eddy said, it's hard to distinguish what Hachi said because physical strength(due to muscles) and reiatsu induced strength might be two different things. For example, we see how easily Kenpachi can slice and break through stuff when he takes off his eyepatch due to the greater flow of reiatsu through his body(also seen as to the strength of his slashes when using Kendo), but his muscles don't actually physically become bigger.

As for hollows, it's unknown if their strength is reiatsu induced or not, hence perhaps what Hachi said.

Your idea seems quite correct, although I'd say it works both ways. It's like Kenpachi said, when two reiatsus clash, the weaker one gets hurt.

A Kidou spell is a special concentrated form of reiatsu so if it is weaker than its intended target, it will break/deflect/not be lethal. Therefore, Kidou(Hadou and Bakudou) can probably both be defeated if your reiatsu levels are strong enough.

For example, Kyouraku was able to easily deflect Chad's punches with his bare hands the first time they met because his reiatsu was stronger than the one in Chad's punches.

This also explains how people such as Kenpachi, Ukitake and Nell can deflect Cero blasts with their bare hands without significant sign of injury.

Doesn't that statement really end the argument right their? The fact that he says strength shows that it was done by a purely physical source. Not only that but he says "I've never seen a level 60 Bakudo broken by physical strength alone" he didn't say I've never seen a Bakudo broken by Pure Physical strength which would be very different.. What it means is that he's never seen that much strength before.

Everytime a Bakudo has been broken it has been broken by someone it was done with motions, if reaitsu was what mattered then the Bakudo wouldn't even affect the person. It defintely takes strength to break a Bakudo. Even human Ichigo did it which means that it has to be strength.

However I would assume that the easist assumption is that pure strength of the same level can break through a Bakudo.

Eddy01741
December 31, 2008, 10:11 PM
Please, define "physical strength" and "pure physical strength", because by the wording, they seem the exact same.

Here is how i see it:

Kensei's hollow broke out of t he bakudou by using his physical strength which was AMPLIFIED by his huge reiatsu (because face it, a "hollowized" shinigami has even more strength than the shinigami himself).

Ichigo broke out of it with the strength he had PLUS the little reiatsu he had as a human. Humans can still have reiatsu, tatsuki is the best example of this. She can see hollow and shinigami, but doesn't have any powers, and she also survived Yammi's soul sucking power. Had Rukia used bakudou #1 on even the strongest human alive, I would doubt that he could escape it unless he had some reiatsu himself.

Onomatopoeia
December 31, 2008, 10:48 PM
Please, define "physical strength" and "pure physical strength", because by the wording, they seem the exact same.
They are I just use them interchangeably.



Here is how i see it:

Kensei's hollow broke out of t he bakudou by using his physical strength which was AMPLIFIED by his huge reiatsu (because face it, a "hollowized" shinigami has even more strength than the shinigami himself).

Ichigo broke out of it with the strength he had PLUS the little reiatsu he had as a human. Humans can still have reiatsu, tatsuki is the best example of this. She can see hollow and shinigami, but doesn't have any powers, and she also survived Yammi's soul sucking power. Had Rukia used bakudou #1 on even the strongest human alive, I would doubt that he could escape it unless he had some reiatsu himself.
But what reason do we have to believe that Reaitsu is needed? Someone with enough strength should be able to break out of it easy. Reaitsu probablly amplifies strength but someone who has a ton of strength without Reaitsu shouldn't even need Reaitsu. I mean lets put Luffy or Naruto in the same situation both have showcased amazing strength feats that should be able to allow them break out of Bakudo. Or even put someone like Superman who has Planet-Lifting feats but no Reaitsu he should be able to break out in his sleep considering that strength is needed.

Hachi even said that he'd never seen anyone break out of a lvl 60 Bakudo with "physical strength." He didn't even mention Reaitsu.

Every time a Bakudo has been broken out of a physical movement was done, sure they probably used reaitsu to amplify their strength but theirs no reason to believe that it wasn't at the end of the day broken out by strength.

If Reaitsu was needed then the physical movement wouldn't be needed. And people who had strong enough Reaitsu would just auto bust out.

kkck
January 01, 2009, 11:55 AM
I guess strenth in bleach is sort of like strenth in DBZ. The greater the spirit energy is the greater the strenth, speed, stamina and other factors are. Of course, I dont think this is absolute, things like fighting stile, body built or personality could lead to diferences in speed, stamina or other aspects even between people with equal amounts of reiatsu.

As for the hachi thing; I believe that "strenth" in bleach is closely related to the amount of reiatsu used at any time, so I think that ichigo broke that kido by turning reiatsu into strenth.

darksaint124
January 01, 2009, 11:48 PM
I guess strenth in bleach is sort of like strenth in DBZ. The greater the spirit energy is the greater the strenth, speed, stamina and other factors are. Of course, I dont think this is absolute, things like fighting stile, body built or personality could lead to diferences in speed, stamina or other aspects even between people with equal amounts of reiatsu.

As for the hachi thing; I believe that "strenth" in bleach is closely related to the amount of reiatsu used at any time, so I think that ichigo broke that kido by turning reiatsu into strenth.

Because Ichigo found out how to control his reiatsu?

Oh, wait. I don't think he has.

Eddy01741
January 02, 2009, 12:20 AM
He doesn't know how to control his reiatsu, but it is DEFINITELY emotion based from what we have seen. When he is fearful of being hurt by others and has no resolve, he has weaker reiatsu and so forth. He can't control or sense reiatsu like most shinigami can (save for Kenpachi of course).

HOWEVER, he still had some reiatsu when Rukia first binded him, since he could see hollows and spirits (dead people not yet sent to the SS) beforehand, and the simple fact that he could even see Rukia.

darksaint124
January 02, 2009, 10:41 AM
He doesn't know how to control his reiatsu, but it is DEFINITELY emotion based from what we have seen. When he is fearful of being hurt by others and has no resolve, he has weaker reiatsu and so forth. He can't control or sense reiatsu like most shinigami can (save for Kenpachi of course).

HOWEVER, he still had some reiatsu when Rukia first binded him, since he could see hollows and spirits (dead people not yet sent to the SS) beforehand, and the simple fact that he could even see Rukia.

That is called "spiritual awareness."

Different from reiatsu.

kkck
January 02, 2009, 10:55 AM
Because Ichigo found out how to control his reiatsu?

Oh, wait. I don't think he has.

I smell a tad of sarcasm.:p

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/82/12/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/241/02/

Ichigo CAN control his reiatsu, he simply is no good at it.

badluckartist
January 02, 2009, 11:19 AM
Where is it said that hado are much harder to pull of than bakudo? I don't remember the two being explained at all, much less differentiated in difficulty.

Eddy01741
January 02, 2009, 12:21 PM
That is called "spiritual awareness."

Different from reiatsu.
"Spiritual Awareness"=having a little bit of what they call "Spiritual Pressure" when translated into english and the ability to see spirits. SOme of Ichigo's friends have it because his massive reiatsu leaks out and affects them, hence why Keigo could see Ikkaku fighting the arrancar and why Tatsuki could see hollows. Same reason why Tatsuki didn't get killed immediately by Yammi's soul sucking power, since she had some reiatsu left.

Forever_Melody
January 02, 2009, 01:12 PM
If Reaitsu was needed then the physical movement wouldn't be needed. And people who had strong enough Reaitsu would just auto bust out.
Well I'm willing to agree that some form of physical is involved since there is a movement, but I also want to note that reiatsu is involved as it plays a factor in the strength in Bleach. As someone said, if someone was really really muscular, he might not be able to break out of a Bakudou if he lacked the strength, while someone less beef, but had reiatsu backing up his strength could break out since the boost would give him/her enough strength to accomplish that feat.

Also, I fail to see why we're arguing this exact point. Kidou or any other type of thing can be dealt with physical strength(by your definition of it at least)...

We see people deflecting swords and blasts with their bare hands. We see people breaking out of binding spells with their bare hands as well.

I fail to see why your point only applies to Bakudous...


Where is it said that hado are much harder to pull of than bakudo? I don't remember the two being explained at all, much less differentiated in difficulty.
It isn't. It's just an idea we're putting out judging by what the manga has shown us. An incantation-less Hadou 90 was cast by Aizen and was commented to be 1/3 of its power while an incantation-less Bakudou 99 was cast by Hachi and its power was not commented upon being actually weaker.

Therefore extrapolating that Hachi and Aizen are somewhat on similar levels in terms of Kidou (I'm only saying this because Aizen was said tor each his Shinigami limit so he must be pretty good at Kidou), it could be assumed that Bakudou is easier to control than Hadou.

Eddy01741
January 02, 2009, 02:31 PM
I would probably have to say that Hachi is better at kidou than Aizen since he is a kidou corps vice-captain and all. However, Aizen has used some of the most powerful kidou in the manga so far from the 13 court squads (dankuu, hadou 90), so he should be pretty good.

Forever_Melody
January 02, 2009, 03:54 PM
Well like I said, I'm only assuming they're on comparable levels since they can both use 90th level Kidous and Aizen was said to reach his Shinigami limit so he must've also maxed the Kidou department.

Also, take note of the actual strength of the spells. A 90th level Hadou at 1/3 of its strength was able to submit a Shinigami Captain while a 99th level Bakudou(cast by Tessai) with incantation wasn't able to hold Ichigo. I'm Assuming Ichigo should be at captain level and even if he was that much higher, the fact taht the spell Aizen used was 9 levels lower than the one Tessai used, incantation-less AND at 1/3 of its power should make up for that difference between Ichigo and Komamura.

Eddy01741
January 02, 2009, 06:50 PM
I think shinigami limit is "to each his own".

For example, I think Kenpachi would have a very low shinigami limit for kidou, same with Renji, they probably have no talent in it. Although those two probably have pretty high Zanjetsu (mastery of Zanpakutou) limits. Byakuya on the other hand would probably have pretty high limits in all categories, possibly save for hand-hand combat.

I too am mystified by the bakudou 99 though, it is possible that Tessai didn't want to hurt Ichigo and didn't put much oomph into the bakudou 99, however, I don't think Bakudou can hurt people at all, it seems to only be able to bind them. Who knows... Hachi used an incantation-less Bakudou 99 on a hollow Kensei (so a captain level shinigami that had it's hollow released, aka, stronger than captain level reiatsu), and it seemed to bind him pretty well (heck, it was still holding him when Tessai transported the battleground back to Urahara's laboratory IIRC).

Maybe Ichigo just has a talent for breaking out of Bakudou lol, he broke out bakudou 1 while human, broke out of 99 as a hollowified human/shinigami, broke out of the steel pillars one while a hollow too.

Forever_Melody
January 02, 2009, 08:25 PM
Well just to correct, I think Bakudou can harm you as Tessai stated he'd have to finish Ichigo off(because they thought he'd become a hollow) and then he started using the 3 songs of "Kin".

Also note some of the Bakudou spells probably carry some type of damaging factor, even if damage isn't their primary function. For example, I'm pretty sure Bakudou 75(the steel pillars) could harm anyone who isn't strong enough to withstand their weight.

I mean, Bakudou is basically any other spell which isn't a direct damage type. Spells such as Dankuu(shield), Tenteikuura(communication) or the like aren't binding in any way, yet are part of the "binding arts".

Eddy01741
January 02, 2009, 09:02 PM
Yeah, I guess that is possible, i think being impaled by a bunch of daggers in bakudou 99 must hurt a lil bit lol.

Forever_Melody
January 02, 2009, 09:18 PM
Not to mention being stabbed in the mid-section by pillars of light(Bakudou 61 (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/142/10/)) or being impaled by spears of reiatsu(Bakudou 61 (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/324/13/)) doesn't seem too pleasant either lol :p

Tsukisama
January 06, 2009, 03:02 AM
While I can understand your argument, Forever_Melody, I think that you are possibly extrapolating too much.

While Aizen says that he has reached his limit (actually, I'll have to re-check some translations of this, as I recall seeing it translated as he was approaching his limits, which would be supported by his data book stats not all being perfect in each category), there is some ambiguity as to what exactly that means. In the data book, we see that Kubo has a stat specificially for kidou, but what exactly does that mean?

Kidou is supposed to an area of shinigami combat, and none of the other three areas seem to relate to just one stat specifically. Even though Aizen has a 100 score in that stat, suggesting that he has reached his greatest peak in that stat, perhaps there are differences between the physiological and technical proficiency with kidou.

For clarification, let me relate this to some of the other areas of shinigami combat. Hakuda requires physical strength, but the techniques also rely (presumably) on knowledge on the mechanics of the technique like real-life martial arts to be used most effectively. Similarly, while speed is important in houho, it takes more than just being fast to implement the techniques. Perhaps this kidou limit/stat might be like a sort of spiritual muscle, and beyond that, one's proficiency with kidou would come from technical knowledge.

If that is the case, then Aizen's spell not being cast as effectively as Hachi's might seem more acceptable. Given that Kidou Corps is specifically devoted to the use of kidou, it would be plausible that the members of the Kidou Corps have more training and a greater technical understanding of kidou (comparable to how one might expect the members of Covert Ops to be more skilled at hakuda or houho).

Another possible consequence of differentiating one's kidou proficiency into having a physiological component and an acquired component is that Aizen simply does not possess "kidou muscle" capacity that Hachi has, which would mean that even if Aizen was as knowledgeable concerning the mechanics of kidou as Hachi, lieutenant of the Kidou Corps, he would still be at a disadvantage to Hachi.

I could see either or both possible consequences being reasonable explanations for the difference in power between the spells. Thus, I think it is a bit hasty to start implying that bakudou must be weaker than hadou when we don't yet know much about the workings of kidou. To me, it would be more probable that the difference lies in the users rather than the types of kidou (but without any further information, any theory is plausible).

Forever_Melody
January 06, 2009, 11:02 AM
But then the argument of actual strength of Bakudou vs Hadou(because you were more replying to my argument of ease of control) holds even more. Even assuming Aizen was less proficient, his Kidou spell(90th level Hadou) was able to destroy a captain while Tessai(according to logic should be much more proficient) used a 99th level Bakudou(9 levels higher) and could not contain Ichigo.

Of course, Ichigo is probably stronger than Komamura, but according to logic, the higher level of the Kidou(99 vs 90) and the higher proficiency of the user(Tessai vs Aizen) should more than make up for this. Add in the fact that Aizen's Kidou was 33% of its actual power while Tessai's was not commented on being actually weaker seem to prove that Bakudous are easier to break out of than Hadous in terms of brute power.

I'm not going to outright say Bakudou is weaker than Hadou, but there seems to be a difference. It is explainable after all. Hadou is really the destructive art while Bakudou is the bindings arts, which contain every other spell that aren't direct damage. Unlike in hadou, Bakudou numbers probably indicate difficulty of spells more than actual power. This is probably the case with hadou as well, but since they're all damage spells, one can assume the more difficult the spell, the higher the damage(if we're talking about a same user here).

Eddy01741
January 06, 2009, 02:58 PM
Another thing Tsukisama, I don't think that there is a set limit for all shinigami. So while a shinigami like Aizen might have a very high limit (aka, high potential power), just some seatless shinigami might have very low limits.

Basically, I think every shinigami has his/her own limit, so Renji and Kenpachi will both have a very low kidou limit (so maybe like 10 at most), but high zanjetsu limits, while maybe Tessai would be the opposite.

All i'm saying is that Aizen doesn't need to have 100 in every stat for him to have reached his limit.

Raizen
January 06, 2009, 03:29 PM
Another thing Tsukisama, I don't think that there is a set limit for all shinigami. So while a shinigami like Aizen might have a very high limit (aka, high potential power), just some seatless shinigami might have very low limits.

Basically, I think every shinigami has his/her own limit, so Renji and Kenpachi will both have a very low kidou limit (so maybe like 10 at most), but high zanjetsu limits, while maybe Tessai would be the opposite.

All i'm saying is that Aizen doesn't need to have 100 in every stat for him to have reached his limit.
The limit means their personal limit, not the max power that can be generated concerning everyone.

Fors example, both aizen and yama has hit the max w/ kido. While aizen can't do a full power level 90 spell w/o the incantation, yama can. It depends on the user and their experience. While they both have reached 100 max, the skils are still differentiable accross each shinigami

Forever_Melody
January 06, 2009, 06:32 PM
Yes, the limit is a personal thing, but from what we've seen, Aizen is a pretty skilled Kidou user so his Kidou limit must be quite high. Therefore, I was assuming he might(key word 'might') be on par with members of the Kidou corps, whom we have no confirmation have reached their limi(i.e. maybe Tessai and Hachi can still improve Kidou wise).

Raizen
January 06, 2009, 07:17 PM
Yes, the limit is a personal thing, but from what we've seen, Aizen is a pretty skilled Kidou user so his Kidou limit must be quite high. Therefore, I was assuming he might(key word 'might') be on par with members of the Kidou corps, whom we have no confirmation have reached their limi(i.e. maybe Tessai and Hachi can still improve Kidou wise).
Aizen hasn't really impressed me with his kido. We have seen him use 2, the black coffin and the danku. But then again danku is only a level 80 spell and byakuya was able to cast it perfectly too.

Aizen is at best profficient at kido, not a master like some others. IMO, once byakuya max out his kido, he is stronger than aizen in that area, but he has yet to. In fact he is at 80 I believe

Forever_Melody
January 06, 2009, 07:54 PM
Well I never said he was the best, but he has a certain proficiency at Kidou, I don't think anyone will deny this. Therefore, a proficient user at his peak is still something. I'm not saying Aizen is the best. I still think Hachi and Tessai are better than him and I actually use that fact to argue my point in my previous posts.

Tsukisama
January 09, 2009, 12:25 AM
But then the argument of actual strength of Bakudou vs Hadou(because you were more replying to my argument of ease of control) holds even more. Even assuming Aizen was less proficient, his Kidou spell(90th level Hadou) was able to destroy a captain while Tessai(according to logic should be much more proficient) used a 99th level Bakudou(9 levels higher) and could not contain Ichigo.

Of course, Ichigo is probably stronger than Komamura, but according to logic, the higher level of the Kidou(99 vs 90) and the higher proficiency of the user(Tessai vs Aizen) should more than make up for this. Add in the fact that Aizen's Kidou was 33% of its actual power while Tessai's was not commented on being actually weaker seem to prove that Bakudous are easier to break out of than Hadous in terms of brute power.

I'm not going to outright say Bakudou is weaker than Hadou, but there seems to be a difference. It is explainable after all. Hadou is really the destructive art while Bakudou is the bindings arts, which contain every other spell that aren't direct damage. Unlike in hadou, Bakudou numbers probably indicate difficulty of spells more than actual power. This is probably the case with hadou as well, but since they're all damage spells, one can assume the more difficult the spell, the higher the damage(if we're talking about a same user here).

I think where you go with the argument in your last paragraph is what makes the biggest difference and what I see as one of (if the) major err in your argument.

The two types of kidou do different things. Hadou deals direct damage, while bakudou has various other effects. I don't see how you can effectively compare an attack like Hadou 90 and a containment spell like Bakudou 99.

All that was said about Aizen's spell was that it worked at only a third of its capacity. There are too many unknown variables to make a comparison. We have already discussed to some degree the differences of the spell-casters. Beyond that there is the differences in the targets. Like you said, I think Ichigo is more than likely stronger than Komamura, but we don't necessarily know if Komamura would have died if the spell was cast at full strength.

The two spells would demand different things from the target to overcome. Bakudou 99 places constraints on the user, and thus it should take some demostration of force to overcome it. Hadou 90 is an attack, and thus to "overcome" it, you would need to be able to endure it. This would be spiritual endurance than a form of overpowering brute force to overcome.

Like you say in your last paragraph, there is a difference between the two demon arts, and it is those differences that make comparisons of power between the two inappropriate. If we were shown Hadou 77, one would not try to compare the level of power between it and Bakudou 77 (the telepathic binding spell), because it would not make sense to do that.

Levels of hadou likely do have some relation to the destructive power (although there could be other reasons like the complexity of spell). Bakudou don't all do one thing like hadou (which all just attack in various ways), but the power generated by the spell (output power) might still be a factor. (Other factors that might impact the level of the spells would be the spiritual power needed to generate the spell {or input power} and the difficulty of manipulating reishi and whatever else to achieve the spell {or spell complexity}.)

So, I don't see using Aizen's hadou and the examples of Bakudou 99 that we have seen thus far as being good examples of relative strength of hadou and bakudou. The two do completely different things and should not really be compared without some direct characterization on the two kidou types from the manga.


Another thing Tsukisama, I don't think that there is a set limit for all shinigami. So while a shinigami like Aizen might have a very high limit (aka, high potential power), just some seatless shinigami might have very low limits.

Basically, I think every shinigami has his/her own limit, so Renji and Kenpachi will both have a very low kidou limit (so maybe like 10 at most), but high zanjetsu limits, while maybe Tessai would be the opposite.

All i'm saying is that Aizen doesn't need to have 100 in every stat for him to have reached his limit.

Actually, like Raizen said, I have been referring to limits as being personalized and not universal, although I would imagine that there may be some ultimate level reachable just by the nature of being a shinigami as I don't think that any shinigami is likely to ever possess infinite potential in a certain area.

Forever_Melody
January 09, 2009, 11:04 AM
Well both Hadou and Bakudou seem to require reiatsu "defeat". I say this because Kidou is merely a certain form of reishi/reiatsu cast in a certain way right? Well Kenpachi's explanation therefore still holds. When reiatsus clash, the weaker one gets hurt/defeated.

Therefore, that explains how stronger opponents can "defeat" or break out of binding spells and how some destructive spells probably have little effect on some targets. If we were to compare Hadou blasts to say Cero(since both are concentrated reiatsu blasts, but of different form/complexity), we've seen captains like Kenpachi and Ukitake being able to repel these blasts with their mere hands. Therefore, we can assume the same law applies. Kenpachi has a naturally humongous amount of reiatsu leaking from his body, therefore he was able to repel the Cero & Ukitake probably has enough proficiency to concentrate enough reiatsu in his hand to repel the Cero.

In the same way, I believe that if someone fired a certain Hadou at Kenpachi, if Kenpachi was strong enough, he could deflect it in the same way.

Of course, this is under the assumption that Cero & Haodu blasts are of the same nature, but I don't see why they wouldn't be(at least in the respect that both are made from reiatsu and are of the blast form).

ryanzokuken
January 15, 2009, 03:19 AM
regarding the comparison between hado and bakudo...

what about danku?

a bakudo that can block any kido lower than level 90.


i.e. Aizen's danku blocking Tessai's hado 88. (don't remember the name. something to do with lightning and dragon)

the argument of Aizen's hado 90 hurting a captain a little bit (honestly, he was fine a moment later when he stood up to shout at Tousen, just a little bloodied up. he was even ok enough to refuse medical treatment.) versus Tessai's bakudo 99 failing to restrain Ichigo, made for the point that hados are more powerful than bakudos, is nullified as of the incident in which danku stopped the lightning dragon blast.

also, as a credit to bakudo 99:no, it wasn't able to restrain Ichigo in that particular instance. it was, however, successful in restraining Kensei, a hollowified captain in full hollow form, whose power i would place FAR beyond the power Ichigo had at the time of said failure to restrain.




Guess I have to say this again.
The reason why the kidou only reached 1/3 power is because Aizen used it without incantation.

With incantation it would have reached full power.

Do I have to go over the importance of, "knowing the name will bring forth more power than not knowing it?"

Aizen stated that the kido was only at about 1/3 of it's destructive power because he had not yet mastered it. so it wasn't just because he didn't say the incantation.

Forever_Melody
January 15, 2009, 02:03 PM
Well I'm not going to argue it much, I'm just saying that Bakudous aren't necessarily ranked in power like Hadous are, but by complexity of the spell itself.

Also, your reference makes little sense because then you're arguing that Tessai, Hachi's superior in Kidou, cannot restrain Ichigo, who was weaker then Kensei >.> So what does that imply if not that Ichigo is stronger than Kensei? That Tessai messed up? :blink

ryanzokuken
January 15, 2009, 06:49 PM
it implies that either

A: kidos aren't necessarily consistent in each usage with their power, as in, their power may vary depending on just how hard the caster is trying.

like Ichigo's GT. it's the same attack every time, but sometimes it's small and easily deflected, and others it's massive and overwhelming.

B: Tessai, in his many years in the living world, has "gotten out of shape" and lost power.

or C: Kubo just made a mistake.

there's no possible way that Ichigo, upon breaking Tessai's bakudo 99, was more powerful than any of the now-vaizards while in full hollow form. least of all one who was already captain level before hybridization.

Eddy01741
January 15, 2009, 08:33 PM
Perhaps Tessai was not using his full power in the bakudou to not hurt ichigo, being stabbed with daggers all around hurts still I would imagine.

Anyways, I would ocnsider Dankuu one of the more useful bakudou, it blocks all hadou lower than 90 and it can be sustained as shown by byakuya (he kept blocking "amor" over and over), so it's like a big shield to almost all hadou, taking away the opponent's ability to use hadou except for those of the highest levels.

Forever_Melody
January 15, 2009, 10:47 PM
One thing does not add in to the fact that Tessai wasn't trying on Ichigo. When Ichigo started to transform, Tessai even said he'd have to eliminate Ichigo, so I'm assuming at that time, he WAS trying to hurt Ichigo, yet he still failed to restrain Ichigo. At that time, Tessai even displayed a more advanced form of "Kin" with the implementation of the 3 songs, something Hachi's Bakudou 99 did not resort to.

ryan, Hachi was also in the real world, same as Tessai so their situation is the same as far as we know. You also have to note that when Ichigo escaped Bakudou 99, he was in this hybrid state of Shinigami/Hollow so he had both types of powers supplementing him. Ichigo's brute power was always commented to be high and Uryuu explained it was like a water hose(or something like that) and that it only appeared in its full at some times. Even Ulquiorra notes this. Therefore, it wouldn't be out of the question that for that one second, that one moment that Ichigo transformed into both a hollow and a shinigami at the same time(creating the first "true" hybrid), that his true potential and reiatsu were released, a potential Ichigo himself may not yet have reached again.

darksaint124
January 16, 2009, 12:11 PM
Aizen stated that the kido was only at about 1/3 of it's destructive power because he had not yet mastered it. so it wasn't just because he didn't say the incantation.

This is a false statement. No one said anything about not mastering it. I don't know where you are getting your info from but, http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/176/13/

Forever_Melody
January 16, 2009, 12:23 PM
The source of why the spell was at 33% power is not explicitly stated in the manga.

The whole discussion regarding that line seems to imply the spell failed due to Aizen's skipping of the incantation rather than a lack of mastery. Gin notes that it's impressive that Aizenc an use a Hadou 90 without an incantation and then Aizen notes that it only reached 1/3 power after which Gin comments that Kidou in the 90s are harder to control. This whole conversation implies that Aizen had trouble controlling his spell when he skipped the incantation and therefore it did not reach full power.

Gecko Moria
January 18, 2009, 07:38 PM
The source of why the spell was at 33% power is not explicitly stated in the manga.

The whole discussion regarding that line seems to imply the spell failed due to Aizen's skipping of the incantation rather than a lack of mastery. Gin notes that it's impressive that Aizenc an use a Hadou 90 without an incantation and then Aizen notes that it only reached 1/3 power after which Gin comments that Kidou in the 90s are harder to control. This whole conversation implies that Aizen had trouble controlling his spell when he skipped the incantation and therefore it did not reach full power.

Wonder why he didnt use the incantation. He definitely shouldve know that a kidou spell at 1/3 of its strength could not kill a captain.

Exodi
January 18, 2009, 07:41 PM
He probably just wanted to try it out and see the results. Aizen probably thought it would work out better than it did.

Forever_Melody
January 18, 2009, 08:39 PM
Yeah, Aizen seemed somewhat disappointed, so I'm guesing he was just "trying it out". Remember that using incantations takes time and concentration. Each of these increase as the level of the Kidou increases to a level 90 Hadou would probably require some time and concentration to properly perform.

ryanzokuken
January 19, 2009, 09:35 AM
This is a false statement. No one said anything about not mastering it. I don't know where you are getting your info from but, http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/176/13/

my bad. i was thinking of the anime. there have been several instances of things i remember from the anime that weren't actually said or seen in the manga. (i.e. most of the Gin vs Hitsu fight):p

emanresu
February 22, 2009, 06:34 AM
Please stop speculating and go back and read the chapter.

I don't get how so many people are getting different interpretations from 1 thing.
He skipped incantation, and he admittedly said "it failed." Where does "that is the most he could do with it" come from?

Incantation is a big part of it, everyone that reads Bleach should know this. It is not a 60's level like Byakuya throws around, or 30's like Rukia does. Its in the 90's. It is stated in canon that they are harder to control and just being able to use one without incantation shows massive control of kidou.

He never said he can only get 1/3 of its potential. He said, "No, it failed. "The power of that blast did not even reach 1/3 of its full potential."

How would he know its full potential if he hasn't done it to its full potential. I seriously doubt that is something you get from watching someone do it.(Where do these ideas come from?)

Wasn't Aizen one of the most secretive shinigami during his time in SS. Who is he watching do these things?

Making up stuff does not make it fact.

Seems like he had done hadou no. 90 with chant at full strength. thats why he was able to tell the power difference.

cнασs      
June 24, 2009, 11:44 AM
Well this theory comes from the Bleach episode 212, Bleach Manga chapter -98. We can see Tessai fire off a Hado 88 at Aizen, Gin, and Tousen. Aizen clearly stops it using Bakudo 81 Dankun(which negates any kido #89 and below) but after that Aizen, Gin, and Tousen are gone. It's like they disappeared, but Urahara keeps looking on..then is interrupted by Shinji because his Hollowfication keeps progressing and getting worse. Then Tessai and him chat and then Tessai says he will use the Forbidden techniques which is he froze time and transported space. At that time Aizen's Shikai was powerful enough to fool Shinji for a whole month. What my theory is that Aizen used his Shikai to hide himself, Gin, and Tousen from Urahara and Tessai to see what they would do. Aizen, if he was there still, saw Tessai preform the forbidden techniques...and then clearly the Central 46 was even going punish Tessai for it. So do you think Aizen could know these forbidden spells? I think he would need a long time to train, seeing as he had trouble releasing 1/3 of Hado #90's power back in the SS arc. What I'm saying is, I think he knows the spells...maybe he's not perfected them.
Your thoughts? Sorry for the long post :(

Gecko Moria
June 24, 2009, 07:56 PM
Does Aizen know the forbidden spells...hmmm
Aizen's commited basically every atrocious act in the Shinigami book, even using captains and vice-captains as guinea pigs for his *forbidden* hollowfication experiment to surpass the limits of Shinigami power. Therefore, I'd say it's very likely that he knows the forbidden spells. After all, he aims to reach the pinnacle of power, he can't achieve that by being like everyone else.

Josear XIII
June 25, 2009, 09:21 AM
Well... he did knew that tessai used forbidden spells, because there is no way in hell aizen saw him use it, and therefore he was accused of using it at the next morning, so its very likely

TheCracker
June 25, 2009, 02:10 PM
That is Aizen, I would be surprised if he didn't know them
I don't mean he can use them, just that he surely knows of their existence, even their incantations

About Aizens strenght, well I would just say hes a genious, maybe from a noble family, maybe not, but I doubt hes something special besides being just damn good in plotting

ryanzokuken
June 29, 2009, 04:04 AM
i'm sure he knows at least some forbidden ones. he's been shown to have powerful kido, as well as be able to cast high level kido such as the black coffin.

and obviously, words like "forbidden" mean nothing to him. :p

kkck
June 29, 2009, 12:19 PM
Aizen certainly is not bounded by morality and stupidity so he should be doing quite well in the forbidden department.

-Ren Boy-
June 29, 2009, 06:02 PM
It is wierd because like Tessai was found out for doing a Forbidden spell, but there was no body around to "snitch" on him. Maybe if Tessai used a forbidden spell it showed up on Central 46's screen informing them of the forbidden spell he used

And if that is a truth statement, which none of us know. It would be impossible for Aizen to know a forbidden spell, without getting found out by central 46

Unless his hax ablilties were initiated but, no VC is allowed in Central 46 so how would he have got them in the illusion

BTW. Does Tousen know forbidden spells, because he teleported renji and rukia to the mountain?

kkck
June 29, 2009, 06:57 PM
We do not know if that was a forbidden spell though.

Gecko Moria
June 29, 2009, 11:54 PM
BTW. Does Tousen know forbidden spells, because he teleported renji and rukia to the mountain?

I think that was just normal kido, Tousen seems to be quite the expert in that field.

Eddy01741
June 30, 2009, 03:06 AM
Whatever it was, it definitely wasn't the same as the spell tessai used to transport the vizards back to Urahara's lab.

Tessai's forbidden spell basically teleported the whole field that the vizards were in back to the lab, as you could see, the terrain and landscape were present in Urahara's lab, we don't see such a thing when Tousen brings Renji and RUkia back to the execution grounds.

Anyhow, how exactly does Tousen seem to be an expert? The only kidou he did was the one to burn Grimmjow's arm, so therefore by him using kidou once, Tousen=Kidou expert?

Razh
June 30, 2009, 03:34 AM
Anyhow, how exactly does Tousen seem to be an expert? The only kidou he did was the one to burn Grimmjow's arm, so therefore by him using kidou once, Tousen=Kidou expert?

No, he can probably just use those 2 he has shown.:notrust

Really man, this is Bleach. The captains that are shown using Kido easily are Kido experts. Even if you disregard the fact that he is in league with Aizen who can use highest level Kido without much trouble and the fact that his Kido and Intellect stats have the highest score.

Eddy01741
June 30, 2009, 04:18 AM
Databook only indicates how close to the limits each captain is.

Anyways, I don't see your point, so Tousen has used one hadou, that means he's a kidou expert? it wasn't even a very high leveled one (somewhere in the 60s IIRC). IMHO, I'd consider Byakuya's feats in kidou to be more impressive than Tousen's, he's used the following w/o incantation, white lightning, six rod light prison, and dankuu. Dankuu is bakudou 81 IIRC.

The only people that I would consider Kidou experts so far one actual evidence, not just assumptions, or databook stats, are:

Aizen: Dankuu without incantation, black coffin w/o incantation (even though it was only 1/3rd as powerful as it could have been).

Hachi: Bakudou 99, no incantation, strong enough to hold down hollow-form Kensei.

Tessai: Hadou 88, no incantation, also bakudou 99 (albeit with incantation) while in a gigai.

Razh
June 30, 2009, 05:30 AM
Databook only indicates how close to the limits each captain is.

Anyways, I don't see your point, so Tousen has used one hadou, that means he's a kidou expert? it wasn't even a very high leveled one (somewhere in the 60s IIRC). IMHO, I'd consider Byakuya's feats in kidou to be more impressive than Tousen's, he's used the following w/o incantation, white lightning, six rod light prison, and dankuu. Dankuu is bakudou 81 IIRC.

The only people that I would consider Kidou experts so far one actual evidence, not just assumptions, or databook stats, are:

Aizen: Dankuu without incantation, black coffin w/o incantation (even though it was only 1/3rd as powerful as it could have been).

Hachi: Bakudou 99, no incantation, strong enough to hold down hollow-form Kensei.

Tessai: Hadou 88, no incantation, also bakudou 99 (albeit with incantation) while in a gigai.

You just fail to see the whole picture.
Tousen is obviously very talented, otherwise he wouldn't be a captain. He was able to achieve Bankai while he was still a seated officer without anyone noticing. When a person like that has Kido and Intellect potential at 90% you can be sure that he rocks in Kido.
The fact that his strenght, offensive ability and defense are less developed also points to what he has been working on more.

If you don't see my point, it's your loss.

Eddy01741
June 30, 2009, 06:11 AM
You just fail to see the whole picture.


What whole picture is there? We are arguing how competent Tousen is at Kidou, there is no whole picture. He is at 90% of his kidou potential (we don't know his limit BTW), and he has used one hadou in the 50s. I don't see what whole picture your pointing at.


Tousen is obviously very talented, otherwise he wouldn't be a captain. He was able to achieve Bankai while he was still a seated officer without anyone noticing. When a person like that has Kido and Intellect potential at 90% you can be sure that he rocks in Kido.
The fact that his strenght, offensive ability and defense are less developed also points to what he has been working on more.


He is talented, but so is every captain.

What does intellect have to do with kidou ability? Like I said, this is a discussion about Kidou, not Tousen, I fail to see how Intellect has anything to do with Kidou.

90% potential, so do we know his limit? That's like saying Renji is at 100% of his kidou limit (just an example, not neccesarily true), yet his kidou still sucks, he just has no potential in Kidou. Until we know his actual limit, we can't judge how powerful his kidou is. Tell me, what's bigger, 90% of 50, or 80% of 100? I'm not saying that Tousen is the 50 in this example, but that he could be. But we don't know since we've only seen him use one kidou spell, and not a very high level one at that.

Your making so many assumptions... So his offense, defense, and strength are lower than his kidou in the databook, and that means he's worked on it less? Maybe his limits in offense, defense, and strength are just higher, and therefore it takes longer to reach those limits. And even if he has been working on it more, how does that automatically mean he is a kidou expert?



If you don't see my point, it's your loss.

So if I don't see your biased opinion, it's my loss?

I'm sorry, but that's just hilarious.

Just because you believe Tousen to be powerful in kidou based on one 50s level hadou and the databook doesn't mean that I have to.


Bottom Line:

You think Tousen is a kidou expert.

I think that Tousen has not shown himself to be a kidou expert. In other words, I am not saying that he is or is not a kidou expert, but instead that Tousen hasn't shown us enough for me to consider him a kidou expert. If we see him pull out a 80s level bakudou or hadou in an upcoming fight without incantaion, I will consider him a kidou expert, but for now, all we have is that he used a 50s level hadou once, and that he is at 90% of his shinigami limit for kidou.

Razh
June 30, 2009, 08:08 AM
What whole picture is there? We are arguing how competent Tousen is at Kidou, there is no whole picture.

Well, I said you didn't see it didn't I? ;)


What does intellect have to do with kidou ability? Like I said, this is a discussion about Kidou, not Tousen, I fail to see how Intellect has anything to do with Kidou.

90% potential, so do we know his limit? That's like saying Renji is at 100% of his kidou limit (just an example, not neccesarily true), yet his kidou still sucks, he just has no potential in Kidou. Until we know his actual limit, we can't judge how powerful his kidou is. Tell me, what's bigger, 90% of 50, or 80% of 100? I'm not saying that Tousen is the 50 in this example, but that he could be. But we don't know since we've only seen him use one kidou spell, and not a very high level one at that.

Your making so many assumptions... So his offense, defense, and strength are lower than his kidou in the databook, and that means he's worked on it less? Maybe his limits in offense, defense, and strength are just higher, and therefore it takes longer to reach those limits. And even if he has been working on it more, how does that automatically mean he is a kidou expert?

Intellect has a lot to do with person's ability to learn Kidou. You think Jidanbou could cast a high level Kidou? Give me a break.

And yeah, it may be an assumption to claim that Tousen is a Kidou expert but it's based on manga facts. And it's not really a brainer either.


So if I don't see your biased opinion, it's my loss?

It's not biased opinion. I don't even like Tousen. I read Bleach, saw the stats and came to the conclusion that Tousen is expert at Kidou. I already explained why I think so.
And yeah, I'm sad that some people need to see everything black on white to realize something simple as that.

Eddy01741
June 30, 2009, 08:37 AM
Wow, I don't like to be personal, especially when debating something of little matter like manga, but uh, way to be condescending much?

So I'll keep the personal things aside, no reason to hold grudges over manga, or else it'll be like the uchiha vs. non-uchiha wars we have at the naruto forum.

Anyhow:

How does intellect have to do with learning Kidou?

Oh, so I need intellect to memorize the incantations or something? I mean, seriously, weak argument. Unless Kubo gives us a direct correlation between intellect and kidou, I don't see it. Intellect helps in battle overall, like making a battle strategy and capitlizing on the opponents weaknesses, but to learn kidou? Doubtful.

Also, Jidanbou couldn't possibly do kidou since 1. he hasn't shown to have any reiatsu, 2. he isn't a shinigami. Bad example.


it may be an assumption to claim that Tousen is a Kidou expert
Alright, then I have proven my point to you. Nothing more to say.



but it's based on manga facts
*Sigh*, because databook is manga facts? Until we see the shinigami limit of Tousen in terms of kidou, you can't say how powerful he is in kidou.

The ONLY thing you can interpret from the databook stats for Tousen in kidou is that his power in Kidou can only improve by another 10% of his maximum potential, too bad we don't know his maximum potential.

The only other piece of evidence... he used a 50s level hadou, so impressive when others are using hadou 88 and 90 without incantation, 81 and 99 without incantation, etc.


It's not biased opinion.

It is a biased opinion. Everything you say is about Tousen being a kidou expert is a biased opinion until Kubo comes out and literally mentions that Tousen is a kidou expert in the manga (IE, he has Aizen comment on how Tousen is an expert in kidou or something). Just because you think that 90% of some unknown kidou limit and the fact that Tousen used a 50s level hadou means he's an expert, is just a biased opinion.


I already explained why I think so.

ALright, that's great, you think he's an expert, i'm quite fine with that, if you say something like "in my opinion", or "I think".


I'm sad that some people need to see everything black on white to realize something simple as that.

So your... sad that you can't force your opinion on others?

There isn't a black and white here. It's all shades of gray.




Bottom Line: I'm fine with the fact that you think he's an expert, but going around claiming your right, and that people like me, are wrong, is completely rediculous. Especially when all we know about Tousen's kidou is that he's reached 90% potential (of an unknown limit), and that he can pull off at least a 50s level hadou without incantation.

Shades of gray, everywhere.

Razh
June 30, 2009, 08:52 AM
Oh, so I need intellect to memorize the incantations or something? I mean, seriously, weak argument. Unless Kubo gives us a direct correlation between intellect and kidou, I don't see it. Intellect helps in battle overall, like making a battle strategy and capitlizing on the opponents weaknesses, but to learn kidou? Doubtful.

Also, Jidanbou couldn't possibly do kidou since 1. he hasn't shown to have any reiatsu, 2. he isn't a shinigami. Bad example.


You know, I did take you seriously before this. But seeing how you think that any moron can become a Kidou expert it's pointless to discuss further.
You really need Kubo to tell you that there's correlation between Kidou and intellect?:(

It can be Jidanbou or anyone with his intellect. It doesn't really matter that he's not a Shinigami. I just gave example of the stupidest person I could remember.

Eddy01741
June 30, 2009, 08:56 AM
Please, give me one example of Kidou being related to Intellect before you start taking things personal.

Last I recalled, Kidou are attacks (or restrainers) made by the user's reiatsu. Do I need to be smart to control my reiatsu well?

Are you therefore saying that Renji is a dumbass?

Gecko Moria
July 06, 2009, 03:20 AM
Anyhow, how exactly does Tousen seem to be an expert? The only kidou he did was the one to burn Grimmjow's arm, so therefore by him using kidou once, Tousen=Kidou expert?

When Aizen makes his way to Karakura Town, he asks Tousen to make the portal. Why does he not ask Gin to do it or just make it himself? Tousen is obviously skilled at kido.


Please, give me one example of Kidou being related to Intellect before you start taking things personal.

Last I recalled, Kidou are attacks (or restrainers) made by the user's reiatsu. Do I need to be smart to control my reiatsu well?

Are you therefore saying that Renji is a dumbass?

Characters that are strong with kido do seem to be intellectually superior (Byakuya, Aizen etc.) when compared to characters who are not so skilled at kido (Omaeda, Renji etc.) on average. You need to be intelligent to use your reiatsu well, controlling your reiatsu is more related to practice and experience.

Eddy01741
July 06, 2009, 03:44 AM
When Aizen makes his way to Karakura Town, he asks Tousen to make the portal. Why does he not ask Gin to do it or just make it himself? Tousen is obviously skilled at kido.




And where is this told to us? For all we know, Aizen's just a lazy bastard that makes his underlings do things for him. Tousen is pretty much the lowest ranking of the three, Aizen being the leader, and Gin being the right hand man. Although it is possible that Tousen did it because he was skilled with kidou, I highly doubt Aizen couldn't be able to make one himself, he's had pretty impressive kidou feats (incantation-less Dankuu and incantation-less (albeit slightly weak) hadou 90).


Characters that are strong with kido do seem to be intellectually superior (Byakuya, Aizen etc.) when compared to characters who are not so skilled at kido (Omaeda, Renji etc.) on average. You need to be intelligent to use your reiatsu well, controlling your reiatsu is more related to practice and experience.

True, that the characters that are stronger tend to be better with kidou, I give you that pooint. It is true that you must be intelligent to use reiatsu well, but as you pointed out, control is more related to practice and experience, which leads me to believe that an intelligent shinigami may use kidou wisely, but he may not have stronger kidou than that of a less intelligent shinigami, he'll just use it better.

Gecko Moria
July 06, 2009, 04:21 AM
And where is this told to us? For all we know, Aizen's just a lazy bastard that makes his underlings do things for him. Tousen is pretty much the lowest ranking of the three, Aizen being the leader, and Gin being the right hand man. Although it is possible that Tousen did it because he was skilled with kidou, I highly doubt Aizen couldn't be able to make one himself, he's had pretty impressive kidou feats (incantation-less Dankuu and incantation-less (albeit slightly weak) hadou 90).

Aizen would probably be able to perform the technique himself, but instead Tousen was asked to do it. Perhaps this shows he has faith in Tousen's kido ability in this area?


True, that the characters that are stronger tend to be better with kidou, I give you that pooint. It is true that you must be intelligent to use reiatsu well, but as you pointed out, control is more related to practice and experience, which leads me to believe that an intelligent shinigami may use kidou wisely, but he may not have stronger kidou than that of a less intelligent shinigami, he'll just use it better.

Why, thank you. Intelligent shinigami are more likely to have stronger kido than those less intelligent. More intelligent shinigami will be able to learn higher levels of kido better and gain absolute control of the power which makes them more formidable. Those less intelligent would either not be able to perform the kido, or perform it badly and perhaps hurt themselves in the process. Using kido well is a greater advantage than learning stronger kido and having it backfire. For example, Byakuya, who IMO is one of the more intelligent shinigami, has been shown to use all sorts of lower kido to subdue and injure his opponents.

Arrogance
July 18, 2009, 03:09 AM
So for the last day I've been having a heated discussion with people of Kido spells and incantation. Putting all that aside I want to get down to the bottom of this matter and have tried to find the original source of this data I found. I first found this information on bleach wiki: http://bleach.wikia.com/wiki/Kid%C5%8D#cite_note-1. This page states: "Eishohaki: a technique that releases Kidō without a spirit chant. While it decreases the time needed to release the Kidō, it drastically weakens the spell". Now when looking into that statment, I have found that the auther has sited this specific statement to Bleach Official Character Book Souls, page 257. Through some more research I have discovered that that page is filled with a bunch of key terms and supposedly this term Eishohaki. So in an attempt to find the original info in this databook, I searched the internet for english translations only to find nothing :(. So I was wondering if anyone had any idea on what I could do to help retrieve this information cause all I want to do is get to the bottom of this matter cause I don't like arguing over it with anyone. So any help in finding a translation of that databook would be greatly appreciated even though things seem slim right now. lol. I dunno, through all my searches it seemed that no one was willing to translate the whole book because everyone was just interested in the captain's stats, so while those were being translated everything else was discarded. O well, lol.

Mifune_Taichou
July 18, 2009, 10:37 AM
So for the last day I've been having a heated discussion with people of Kido spells and incantation. Putting all that aside I want to get down to the bottom of this matter and have tried to find the original source of this data I found. I first found this information on bleach wiki: http://bleach.wikia.com/wiki/Kid%C5%8D#cite_note-1. This page states: "Eishohaki: a technique that releases Kidō without a spirit chant. While it decreases the time needed to release the Kidō, it drastically weakens the spell". Now when looking into that statment, I have found that the auther has sited this specific statement to Bleach Official Character Book Souls, page 257. Through some more research I have discovered that that page is filled with a bunch of key terms and supposedly this term Eishohaki. So in an attempt to find the original info in this databook, I searched the internet for english translations only to find nothing :(. So I was wondering if anyone had any idea on what I could do to help retrieve this information cause all I want to do is get to the bottom of this matter cause I don't like arguing over it with anyone. So any help in finding a translation of that databook would be greatly appreciated even though things seem slim right now. lol. I dunno, through all my searches it seemed that no one was willing to translate the whole book because everyone was just interested in the captain's stats, so while those were being translated everything else was discarded. O well, lol.

I dont know where you can find the english version but if you can find the japanese it might be easier to find a japanese person/someone good at japanese to translate it for you. Heck if you find it and email it to me i'd give it a crack as I speak some japanese but I'm no expert.

Arrogance
July 18, 2009, 11:18 AM
I dont know where you can find the english version but if you can find the japanese it might be easier to find a japanese person/someone good at japanese to translate it for you. Heck if you find it and email it to me i'd give it a crack as I speak some japanese but I'm no expert.
Yea, I spent a good 3 hours searching the internet and the best I can find is a Japanese Raw. :( lol. I just want to argue over it anymore, I found some information that might just end the whole thing so I just wanna actually get my hands on it, lol. Yet it just so happens to be the hardest thing on earth to find, and I'm not in the mood to buy it just for the point if an argument, lol. W.e if and when I find something out I'll post back here with results.

kkck
July 18, 2009, 11:33 AM
If you have a raw you could just ask a translator here for help. Of course you would actually need the few pages with the information and send it to him(I guess that could be a problem lol). There actually are a few translators here who would have no problem in helping out.

Forever_Melody
November 01, 2009, 09:04 AM
Could someone provide me with a quote(or a link if it exists) to the volume release(i.e. not a WSJ scanlation) of chapters 177 and 266 please?

I'd basically like to know if the following is a mistranslation or an error and if it is an error, how it got fixed(if at all) in the final manga volume release.

In chapter 177, Kukaku uses Hadou #63 and labels it Raikouhou(link (http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-177/page012.html)); however in chapter 266, Rukia uses Souren Soukatsui and also labels it Hadou #63(link (http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-266/page016.html)).

The anime "corrected" this apparently by naming Souren Soukatsui Hadou #73(thanks to El Samurai Guapo for pointing it out :tem) so I'm just wondering if a correction was done in the final manga volume release and if it matches the anime's correction.

Thank you :)

juUnior
November 01, 2009, 01:47 PM
Looking at the kanjis it looks the same as "63" in both cases:
http://mangahelpers.com/downloads/read-online/611/64?t=1257100904
http://mangahelpers.com/downloads/read-online/592/196
So it seems it wasn't corrected <but I may be wrong, pure observation xd>

Forever_Melody
November 01, 2009, 10:26 PM
Hmm well this certainly makes it difficult to use in a manga discussion considering anime can't be used as a cited source :/

Well, I suppose the "actual" Hadou #63 will be the first one introduced i.e. Raikouhou and Souren Soukatsui will be rank-less for the time being(it is after all only a double shot of Soukatsui)

kkck
November 01, 2009, 10:54 PM
Can't there be more than one kido with the same number though? I was always under the impression that the number of each kido was merely the level of dificulty of each spell. If that truly is the case, then it would be reasonable for more than one spell to have the same number.

Forever_Melody
November 01, 2009, 10:59 PM
Well Kubo never really provided much of a detailed explanation for Kidou so it's a bit of a toss up really.

Yes, numbers represent complexity, but can you really have 2 spells which you can concretely assess are 100% equal in terms of complexity when their nature is different? I mean, complexity is a bit relative anyways when you think about it no? That's like asking me whether my math test or my history test was harder. Not only is that difficult to assess because they are of a different nature, but it's also harder because as a person, I might be inclined to have an affinity for one over the other.

Another thing that randomly just popped into my head, was it ever confirmed that Kidous stop at 99? I recall Gin mentioning the special rank of spells above 90, but did he say Kidou stopped at level 99?

kkck
November 01, 2009, 11:38 PM
Well Kubo never really provided much of a detailed explanation for Kidou so it's a bit of a toss up really.

Yes, numbers represent complexity, but can you really have 2 spells which you can concretely assess are 100% equal in terms of complexity when their nature is different? I mean, complexity is a bit relative anyways when you think about it no? That's like asking me whether my math test or my history test was harder. Not only is that difficult to assess because they are of a different nature, but it's also harder because as a person, I might be inclined to have an affinity for one over the other.

Another thing that randomly just popped into my head, was it ever confirmed that Kidous stop at 99? I recall Gin mentioning the special rank of spells above 90, but did he say Kidou stopped at level 99?

I don't think the number says nearly as much as what you would suggest lol. I always though about differently numbered kido as several classes of the same progression. Kinda like how you have math, algebra, pre-calculus, calculus I, calculus II, calculus III and so on. You start with basic things and move on to the more complex in an orderly manner. As you might know by experience moving on to the higher levels of math gets increasingly difficult and more complex. Also you would have people who either are talented or simply they are not(take rukia vs renji). Of course there might be different natures and varieties of kido but a sequence as the one I mentioned before would explain the numbering pretty much the same. Anyways, that is just my take on it, the manga might actually reveal something completely different in the future. I do think there are some sort of standards when saying a spell is of a given level though.

The manga has never confirmed such a thing but I am unsure of whether the databook mentioned anything about it. Only thing I can say about that is that we have never seen a kido above the 99th level. As a final note I want to mention that renji called byakuya's level 33 spell a "mid level" kido. If such a low number spell can be considered "mid level" I really don't know what a 99th level spell would be. It's kinda hard to see anything above it....

Forever_Melody
November 02, 2009, 12:02 AM
I don't think the number says nearly as much as what you would suggest lol. I always though about differently numbered kido as several classes of the same progression. Kinda like how you have math, algebra, pre-calculus, calculus I, calculus II, calculus III and so on. You start with basic things and move on to the more complex in an orderly manner. As you might know by experience moving on to the higher levels of math gets increasingly difficult and more complex. Also you would have people who either are talented or simply they are not(take rukia vs renji). Of course there might be different natures and varieties of kido but a sequence as the one I mentioned before would explain the numbering pretty much the same. Anyways, that is just my take on it, the manga might actually reveal something completely different in the future. I do think there are some sort of standards when saying a spell is of a given level though.
Your logic does make sense although I'd argue that some may find Linear Algebra harder than Calculus or say Differential Equation or Statistics. Tiers show a given level of complexity, but personal affinity can also be a factor in math.

This logic could apply to Kidou I suppose as certain people choose to use certain spells rather than others(so perhaps they have an affinity towards those). For example, most of(if not all of) Rukia's Hadous so far were blast spells in the form of fire attacks(notable Soukatsui and Souren Soukatsui) so perhaps it is simpler for her to produce a fire based Hadou spell(which would be odd considering the ice nature of her reiatsu/Zanpakuto)

Also, just because you can learn a spell of complexity #63 doesn't mean you necessarily can produce all 62 spells under it for example so I'm not sure it's a linear progression.


The manga has never confirmed such a thing but I am unsure of whether the databook mentioned anything about it. Only thing I can say about that is that we have never seen a kido above the 99th level. As a final note I want to mention that renji called byakuya's level 33 spell a "mid level" kido. If such a low number spell can be considered "mid level" I really don't know what a 99th level spell would be. It's kinda hard to see anything above it....

Well that's true, "Kin" was the highest level Kidou we've seen(although arguably Tessai used "Bankin" so it seems that the 99th level Bakudou has more than one form).

Well I do agree that 99 levels is enough, but I was wondering if there was actual reference to the fact that there are only 99. I mean, leaving it open means Kubo can decide to add Bakudou #666 if he desires in the future lol :p

kkck
November 02, 2009, 12:24 AM
I wasn't talking about "linear algebra", quite frankly I am not even sure you can call that math lol.... I was talking about the good old fashion a + b = c(plain algebra lol).....

Also, just because you can learn a spell of complexity #63 doesn't mean you necessarily can produce all 62 spells under it for example so I'm not sure it's a linear progression.
I agree with that but on the other had odds are you at least need the knowledge to perform a level 62 spell if you want to perform a level 63 one. You can probably just skip a few levels once you get a certain degree of skill. I doubt shinigami's learn kido by doing them 1 level at a time(it would not be that unreasonable though considering how long shinigami's live lol).

juUnior
November 02, 2009, 08:03 AM
Can't there be more than one kido with the same number though? I was always under the impression that the number of each kido was merely the level of dificulty of each spell. If that truly is the case, then it would be reasonable for more than one spell to have the same number.
That's the best explanation to it besides Kubo's failure - I always want to see the bright side of life of mangaka <:p> so I'm sticking with that explanation, hyhy ^^

Forever_Melody
November 02, 2009, 10:52 AM
I wasn't talking about "linear algebra", quite frankly I am not even sure you can call that math lol.... I was talking about the good old fashion a + b = c(plain algebra lol).....
Advanced Linear Algebra is probably one of the hardest math classes and Math in general stems far away from simple a+b. The most difficult Math is arguably analytical Math and boy does it ever go away from a+b(talk about infinite dimensions and stuff). Anyhow, there's no point in talking about Math, but my point was that even within your example, there are affinities at play. I could be really good at algebra and literally suck at statistics(I know, because I am :p).


I agree with that but on the other had odds are you at least need the knowledge to perform a level 62 spell if you want to perform a level 63 one. You can probably just skip a few levels once you get a certain degree of skill. I doubt shinigami's learn kido by doing them 1 level at a time(it would not be that unreasonable though considering how long shinigami's live lol).

Well that really depends how the learning curve between the levels of Kidou go. It's not like the knowledge used to create Hadou #62 is present within the following levels. Perhaps spells of similar nature share knowledge bases like Hadou #31, Hadou #33 and Hadou #63 which are all fireball type Hados.

Probably the most basic Hadous(like #1) are present within most spells(or at least most spells which are projectiles), but I'm not certain the knowledge within each Hadou contains the knowledge of a subsequent Hadou. As you said, it's a complexity level, not a pre-requisite linear learning curve. I doubt it's written "you must know Hadou #43 to perform Hadou #44). Sure, chances are if you can perform #44 that you can also do #43 since it's less complicated, but IMO it's no guarantee if they are different in nature.

Just as I can perform an advanced math class in one branch of math does not guarantee I can excel at a more basic class of another math branch(assuming it wasn't a pre-requisite of the advanced class I did).

Revolation
August 10, 2010, 09:49 PM
Personally, I think kidou has not been used to it's full potential in bleach. I mean i understand exactly why and i'll get to that later.

Though as we know, kidou has 100 spells in offensive and defensive kidou. My theory is that some group or somebody made the spells and they eventually became standardized so that everyone was taught these basic spells at the academy as if they were like multiplication tables or whatnot. and the ones who excel learn higher kidou.

the reason i say these spells became standardized is because i've always thought of kidou as crayons, and it's up to you to decide what you draw on the paper and what "colors" you use on the paper.

this is further shown with hinamori in the fight with harribel's fracciom. utilizing kidou spells closer to their true intent, but not to thier full potential.

Another reason i say a group or somebody made the kidou spells is that it's possible to make your own kidou. this has been shown with both urahara and hacchi. not only that, but kidou can be used in more than spells and has it's own energy feel. this is shown with shunkou, used by yoruichi and soi fon, and hacchi's barriers. then theres forbidden spells and healing kidou

the effect of teaching the kidou spells in standardized form has a similar effect to standardized education in real life. A lack or breathing room and a lack or creativity as a result. Now shinigami are going around just drawing squares with monotone colors, when they could be drawing masterpieces with multiple colors(still using analogies and metaphors here)

Although I understand somebody could argue if kidou becomes too developed an art during the plot of bleach it would be a naruto clone and that they should just leave "the legendary kidou users" to a story from the past or some legend or something like that and thats farthest from the truth.

almost all shounen mangas have some kind of high speed movement, and they all have their different explanations, however vague or complex. in order to not be compared to something like naruto, all one has to do is either keep it vague as kubo has done with kidou so far, or make it his own which would make it a unique concept to bleach.(although who cares right, because everything is still compared to dbz. ~_~)

Meh, anyway, I think hinamori was in a better mental state when she fought the fraccion as she was able to fight good, but then this getting stabbed by hitsu(which i had a AHA! moment when that happened in the manga because i read a similar scene in a fanfiction with aizen involved and everything. i guess this makes aizen predictable after all) might finish off her mental state for sure. hopefully she gets gets unconscious and then after some iminent nightmares, get off of aizen and back to kidou ownage.

kkck
August 11, 2010, 12:13 AM
First of all, I doubt there are 100 spells in defensive and offensive kido. The impression I had was simply that the number represented the level of difficulty of a spell. That would mean there could be several spells with the same number (granted we have not seen 2 spells with the same number yet). Still, it'd be a tad weird that a thousand year old society is limited to 198 spells (kido so far just goes as high as level 99, not 100).

Jackk
August 11, 2010, 02:17 AM
We do know that there is:

Bakudō (縛道, "Way of Binding") - basically defensive.

Hadō (破道, "Way of Destruction") - basically offensive.

Healing Kido/spells. - basically healing...

Maybe those 198 kido spells are the "official" ones? (the ones with numbers)

We know that there are other Forbidden Kido spells like the ones Tessai used.

Then there's the new Kido that Hachi came up with himself.

Revolation
August 11, 2010, 10:09 AM
First of all, I doubt there are 100 spells in defensive and offensive kido. The impression I had was simply that the number represented the level of difficulty of a spell. That would mean there could be several spells with the same number (granted we have not seen 2 spells with the same number yet). Still, it'd be a tad weird that a thousand year old society is limited to 198 spells (kido so far just goes as high as level 99, not 100).

Thanks for your contribution. I like to see others opinions. Thats a good theory you have there.

there is that hado 33 sokatsui spell and then a couple levels later there a hado 73 soren sokatsui spell that just shoots multiple sokatsui at once although each individual blast is stronger. i thought it was kind of weird.
does it take less energy to shoot that second spell than it does to shoot multiple of the first once sperately, or is it just a time issue? and i understand the strength of the spells and of the difference between the spells depends on the user.

Exodi
August 11, 2010, 10:37 AM
As for Soukatsui and Soren Soukatsui, I always thought the latter was just a bigger, more powerful version than the former.

I also think that Soukatsui isn't the only "lower level" spell with a bigger version. I don't really have any proof of this, but it is an idea I like to play around with. Not to say that every "higher level" kidou is a more powerful version of a "lower level" kidou. I think it might only apply to some, with Soukatsui as one example.

kkck
August 11, 2010, 11:30 AM
I recall there are also the flame attacks used every now and then.... I recall red flame, blue flame and urahara used a yellow something flame... Actually, they are consecutive spells according to number:
31.- Shakkahō (shot of red fire)
32.- Ōkasen (yellow fire flash)
33.- Sōkatsui (blue fire crash down)

It is interesting those 3 consecutive spells have a common theme.... Perhaps there is something to the idea that there are 99 standar bakudo and hado which are ranked according to dificulty. That would mean there are other spells which are simply not ranked nor standard though. I still do doubt the limit of kido is 198 spells though, there should be a lot more than that.

It'd also be interesting if the spells preceding soren sokatsui are enhanced versions of shukkako and okasen. It'd be worth seeing in the manga....

Revolation
August 11, 2010, 11:47 AM
I recall there are also the flame attacks used every now and then.... I recall red flame, blue flame and urahara used a yellow something flame... Actually, they are consecutive spells according to number:
31.- Shakkahō (shot of red fire)
32.- Ōkasen (yellow fire flash)
33.- Sōkatsui (blue fire crash down)

It is interesting those 3 consecutive spells have a common theme.... Perhaps there is something to the idea that there are 99 standar bakudo and hado which are ranked according to dificulty. That would mean there are other spells which are simply not ranked nor standard though. I still do doubt the limit of kido is 198 spells though, there should be a lot more than that.

It'd also be interesting if the spells preceding soren sokatsui are enhanced versions of shukkako and okasen. It'd be worth seeing in the manga....

I'm still wondering what happened to the kidou corps? now you know what i mean by kubo keeping kidou vague.

and my theory of the colors of the fire in the increasing kidou has to do with the color of different fires and the wavelengths and frequency of colors in real life and the temperature associated with both of those things in real life.

CitrusHour
August 11, 2010, 04:04 PM
I always got the impression that Kido was the way in which shinigami shaped their own reiatsu to gain magical effects. The incantation powers spells up by 'shaping' them, the actual effect becoming more than just random structure by bringing the effects of the spell into stronger connotation by including a description to bring to mind, i.e. Hado 63 - Thunder Roar Cannon "The sound of warring spears fills the empty castle!".

Higher Kido would then simply be the effects that are more difficult to shape without an incantation as their effects are more difficult to replicate without a description. Compare the difficulty in shaping between a 'black coffin' and a bolt of lightning.

Kido masters therefore would simply be people who could shape their reiatsu with more control.

I think that's the reason though that Hollows have Cero's instead. Hollows were first described as the untamed 'instinct' inside, so they wouldn't be able to shape their own reiatsu into anything apart from random beams of destruction.

Kaiten
August 11, 2010, 10:21 PM
I wonder if kido's lack of development has more to do with the purpose it serves. During the substitute arc hollows were described as humans unable to cross over to the afterlife; bound by regret, grief, fear, etc. Rukia assured Ichigo that when a hollow was destroyed by a shinigami's zanpakutou it's soul would be cleansed, able to cross to the afterlife, and absolved of the sins committed while a hollow. No mention was ever made of kidou, also introduced during the Substitute arc. Staying consistent with this no hollow has been destroyed by kidou. High level kidou's have been used to weaken, immobilize, and confuse but never to defeat. The highest level kidou have yet to be used against a hollow, instead all of been used in shinigami versus shinigami combat. My feeling is that the lack of development is deliberate, zanpakutou were meant to be the primary weapon from the start. Kubo may feel that expanding on kidou would shift the focus to super powers at the expense of the story.

As for Kidou Corps, my theory is they are more of a support squad than a front line fighting squad. Say a herd of Gillian need to be defeated by a squad of lower seats led by a single captain. A kidou corps member would use kidou to bind a number of Gillian permitting the weaker shinigami to more easily defeat the menos.

kkck
August 11, 2010, 10:30 PM
Well, yeah, zampakuto and their various stages of release were meant to be the characters main weapon. Even if kido is more developed though, I don't think it'd shift attention from zampakuto though. Even with what little we know about kido, we know for a fact that it is extremely hard to use in battle. The only way for kido to be vaguely useful in battle is that you can use it without an incantation since saying incantation takes far too long. Not to mention people capable of mastering kido to a degree where it could successfully replace shikai (let along bankai) are extremely rare. To replace a shikai at least high level kido would be required and replacing bankai with kido would require at least level 90th kido without incantation. One way or another, proficient kido users are just absurdly rare, it is too difficult a skill to acquire in order to use it in a way where it could replace a zampakuto.

The Newbie.
August 11, 2010, 10:44 PM
I wonder if kido's lack of development has more to do with the purpose it serves. During the substitute arc hollows were described as humans unable to cross over to the afterlife; bound by regret, grief, fear, etc. Rukia assured Ichigo that when a hollow was destroyed by a shinigami's zanpakutou it's soul would be cleansed, able to cross to the afterlife, and absolved of the sins committed while a hollow. No mention was ever made of kidou, also introduced during the Substitute arc. Staying consistent with this no hollow has been destroyed by kidou. High level kidou's have been used to weaken, immobilize, and confuse but never to defeat. The highest level kidou have yet to be used against a hollow, instead all of been used in shinigami versus shinigami combat. My feeling is that the lack of development is deliberate, zanpakutou were meant to be the primary weapon from the start. Kubo may feel that expanding on kidou would shift the focus to super powers at the expense of the story.

As for Kidou Corps, my theory is they are more of a support squad than a front line fighting squad. Say a herd of Gillian need to be defeated by a squad of lower seats led by a single captain. A kidou corps member would use kidou to bind a number of Gillian permitting the weaker shinigami to more easily defeat the menos.

It may be to not take all the attention away, maybe it is not that used because without experience it backfires pretty badly. For what I remember kido is the raw reiatsu compressed into clean techniques and blasts, not mastering it means that it could explode in the face. Although people like Renji use their lack of skill for their own advantage (You know what?! I suck at kidou! And let's see who gets blown up first! HADOU #LOL: LEEROY JENKINS! *Kaboom*), but it is not something that everyone uses that easily.

On the other side, people who master it tend to have the upper hand or bring up a very strong trick that may only be destroyed by either another hadou or blocked with a bakudou.
-Byakuya (And followed by Rukia) normally mix both in battle to keep the enemy in place.
-Soifon (Hinamori too) trap enemies in bakudoes to inscrease the chance to succeed in the next attack.
-Urahara mixes kidou with his experiments or attacks.
-Favorite is Hachigen who uses barriers and forbidden spells to defeat enemies, oh, and favorite, defeated a hollowfied Kensei that was giving trouble to the other 5 vizards.
-Tessai used a complete #99 bakudou in chapter 60. >.>

Tough, all those mentioned above excelled in combat, people like Renji, Ichigo or Mayuri use more their abilities in combat because they don't have time to learn dangerous spells, already have a special poison or excelled in other areas of combat and was allowed to graduate without fully learning one area.

I would like to see future development to kidou though, like showing what is capable of doing a top spell, from what we have already seen they can be pretty much broken strong if the person is skilled.

Kaiten
August 12, 2010, 12:20 AM
Taking attention away isn't what I really meant. Action series with to many different powers usually fall apart. Between shikai, bankai, and all the (more detailed) kidou, Bleach would be one of those series with a million useless powers no one could remember.

Revolation
August 12, 2010, 08:56 AM
I always got the impression that Kido was the way in which shinigami shaped their own reiatsu to gain magical effects. The incantation powers spells up by 'shaping' them, the actual effect becoming more than just random structure by bringing the effects of the spell into stronger connotation by including a description to bring to mind, i.e. Hado 63 - Thunder Roar Cannon "The sound of warring spears fills the empty castle!".

Higher Kido would then simply be the effects that are more difficult to shape without an incantation as their effects are more difficult to replicate without a description. Compare the difficulty in shaping between a 'black coffin' and a bolt of lightning.

Kido masters therefore would simply be people who could shape their reiatsu with more control.

I think that's the reason though that Hollows have Cero's instead. Hollows were first described as the untamed 'instinct' inside, so they wouldn't be able to shape their own reiatsu into anything apart from random beams of destruction.

This is the way I also saw it. I think rukia also said something similar like this about kidou shaping your reitsu.

anyway, this brings me back to whoever standardized the kidou spells. now people are just shaping thier reitsu in the same way instead of being creative and making their own kidou. hacchi, urahara, and yoruichi and soi fon are exceptions.

also agree with kkck's take on how kubo can develop kidou but still keep zanpaktous as the main weapon.

juUnior
August 15, 2010, 09:17 AM
Kaiten.Sama <xd> I agree on your approach. Still, there's one "but" in here: without losing hope to Kubo, it was also said that only through zanpakutou the soul could be cleaned <or sth like that> - that's why, like you said, are only for weakening. I think shinigamis are NOT ALLOWED to kill hollows using any other means than zanpakutou.

Though if there wasn't any saying with zanpakutou and I come up with it, I'm all deeply sorry and I'm mistaken :p

jiraiyanindo
August 16, 2010, 02:01 PM
Thats a good point and i never thought of it that way but you may be right. Hollows are souls that have been corrupted, in a matter of speaking so the shinigami's responsibility is to destroy the hollow with a zanpakuto in order to release that soul and purify it. On top of that, I like kido and wish it was used more throughout the manga but I'm debating if kidou has the power to kill an hollow. Most of the kidou we see used are restraining kidou or barriers. Until recently, we havent really seen much insanely destructive kidou. With that being said, I believe that there are kidou which can kill hollows but I wonder why it isnt used?

conn-man
August 16, 2010, 03:18 PM
well since this is kido discussion i want to include healing kido. we still really know nothing about how it works, what its limitations are, or if it has spell numbers/levels of difficulty.

i think it is a form of regeneration and not like a spirit form of surgery. for example matsumoto had that whole piece pulled out of her, we never saw what happened to it but idont think kira went and got it and started reatatching all the nerves, veins, etc. i would bet that he regenerated everything that was taken out, that would also help explain how soifon, hiyori and ukitake might be healed.

also we had the third seat of squad 4 say that orihimes abilities are astonishing, he didnt seem to think they where extremly exotic or impossible.

Tsukisama
February 24, 2011, 01:08 PM
Tessai may have been seen as unarmed,yet maybe he had used a Kidou enhancing his strength.;)

I think that is a bit of a stretch. Thus far kidou has never been used to augment physical strength. Hakuda, on the other hand, is an area of shinigami combat focused around unarmed strikes that involve focusing your reiatsu.

Kidou is related to the other areas of shinigami combat through the manipulation of spirit energy and pressure, but there are distinctions amongst them that define what they are.

g0dzax
February 24, 2011, 01:20 PM
I see your point.But still,Shunkou combines Kidou with Hakuda,right?If this is the case,I'm sure Tessai knows other Kidou similar to this one.Maybe one that augments his muscle power,maybe one that makes your bones strong as steel.It's plausible:).

Edit: You got me here:eyeroll.Indeed,Tessai wouldn't need a spell,he is quite muscular.

Tsukisama
February 24, 2011, 01:24 PM
The thing that Tessai did was very similar to Yamamoto's Ikkotsu, except Tessai's attack was an open palm thrust. Both attacks are more simple viewed as hakuda.

Plus, Tessai isn't Hachigen. :amuse Tessai is a big, muscular guy. I don't think he should need beef up his muscles with a spell.

kkck
February 24, 2011, 02:06 PM
Isn't it bakudo and hado? What is hakuda?

Gran Maestro
February 24, 2011, 03:24 PM
Isn't it bakudo and hado? What is hakuda?

Hakuda (http://bleach.wikia.com/wiki/Hakuda) is hand-to-hand combat.

g0dzax
April 10, 2011, 02:54 AM
I'm thinking about the kido used by Urahara to seal Aizen.I think it's actually a variation of the Kurohitsugi,though it seems unlikely.Kurohitsugi had on top of it(the top where it ends)many spikes,and the kido used by Urahara was also formed by spikes.Just a guess,tough.

Also,maybe it's possible for Urahara's kido to be included in the Bakudo section of Kido.

kkck
April 10, 2011, 10:49 AM
The kido that sealed aizen was definitely a bakudo. Bakudo means "way of binding" and hado means "way of destruction". In that sense the kido that urahara used to seal aizen could not be anything but a bakudo as it did exactly what the bakudo definition implies. The spells only have a circumstantial resemblance through the spikes, I doubt they have anything in common in the least.