Madara Mega Convo

[badluckartist]

I wasn't hostile :)

Sure it is. Eternal Mangekyou is just a little stronger MS which doesn't make you blind.
If he's going blind than maybe EMS isn't so eternal, only longer. If he can't use all of the techniques he used before it could be a matter of old age, or an effect of whatever he used to live so long.

I dpn't even know where all this talk about him not be able to use EMS came from. Itachi only said that Nadara is not what he used to be. Of course.
He can't be as strong as he was when he was in his prime.

It's just an idea that sprung from what Itachi said. "Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan" is a nickname given to it by the fans, if I'm not mistaken (if Itachi says that specifically, please post). The eternal part simply means that it'll never make him blind, and that it "gave birth to a new technique". That name does not mean "can never be sealed or weakened". This manga is all about sealing and forbidden jutsus and whatnot- Yondai's Shinigami jutsu, and the sealing jutsu he used on Naruto, the five part seal Orochimaru used on Naruto's seal, the five part unsealing Jiraiya used on Naruto, and as the great Jehuty mentioned, the branch family of the Hyuuga's seal.

There's absolutely no reason to not speculate here- that's what these conversations are for, unless in a debate about specific events or characters that are established. I think Madara is the ultimate foreshadowing example of the looming fact that the Sharingan is indeed not as invincible as we're being led to believe right now.

My vote goes for his attack on Konoha using the EMS's "special technique" (perhaps the one that controlled the Kyuubi in the first place?). Something about the way that Yondai sealed the Kyuubi just itches at the back of my brain as having been done on purpose as to make Madara's technique backfire and "devolve" his Sharingan somehow.

Maybe... Madara's "that technique" (wow everyone's got one these days) somehow 'links' him with the Kyuubi itself, and when Yondai sealed the Kyuubi's yin (or was it yang? damn I'm way too lazy right now to look that up : p) chakra, it also sealed away Madara's precious eyeball, leaving him with one, and only half of the powers bestowed by the EMS. Just a theory of mine.

Sorry about the long post ^^' hope somebody reads :3

[kthy0056]

I still think that Tobi can be Obito. But not that his is Obito, but Madara with Obito's body.

As already known, Tobi has more of the traits of Obito than of Madara.

He has his body looking like a cyborg. Might be because of his body was wrecked under the stones in the Grass country.

His face is covered by a mask. Maybe because his face was destroyed by rocks.

Only one eye is shown. The other one is probably missing( if he had the other eye, he would have made a two eye mask). Strangely, the missing eye is in the same socket as the one gived to Kakashi.

And his hair doesn't look at all like Madara's. How many hair style changes have you saw in Naruto.

What I said up here you already knew. But still:

The mask really shows that he hides something important from the mask. Even in the latest chapter in the cover it is said: What does Madara hides behind the mask?
Also, this Konoha - Madara fight would be a good, sentimentalistic oportunity. A fight between Madara, with the body of Obito, and Kakashi, his best friend. From the interview we learned that Kakashi will receive some importance too, second to Sasuke.

Other thing: Kishimoto was pretty obvious. We predicted Jiraya's death, we predicted that Susanoo is an ability of Itachi. The things which are obvious are always turning to be true. Since Tobi looks obviously like Obito (hey what about the name :p ), it is very easy to see that That Tobi will have Obito's body.

Other thing: Madara is interested of Sasuke and had killed the Uchiha clan with Itachi.
But why would he need another Uchiha like Sasuke? He is not using him for letting Itachi having the EMS. Why would say the hawk and snake comment then?
I believe that Madara wants Sasuke for his Sharingan. Why would he need his Sharingan? He already have EMS.
Unless... he doesn't have it. Or fully doesn't have it. If he is possesing Obito's body, which have just one eye, he doesn't have full power of EMS.
This is why Itachi is saying that Madara is an old shell. Because he doesn't have the complete EMS.
So he need to reactivate the EMS. That is why he is needing Sasuke. Or Itachi. Maybe he put them to fight in order to see who is more worthy of giving their eyes to him.
There are other things about it but I will say them in a separate thread because they are not Tobi related.
Now there are some things that are against the Tobi= Madara + Obito theory.
1.How come Madara has a new body, instead of his own body?
Answer: Well he fought with the first hokage and lost. It might be very possibile that his body was destroyed.
2.Why Obito out of all Uchihas?
A: Well his body was lost in the grass country and he could use it to walk again in normal world.
3. Obito's eye was crushed. How come Tobi has that eye?
A: Maybe when Madara possesed Obito's body, he regenerated his eye. He didn't regenerate his other eye since he didn't have it.
4. To obtain the EMS, you must kill your sibling. Sasuke is not Obito's sibling. How can he reactivate EMS then?
A: Itachi also said that you must kill your best friend in order to activate MS. But Madara and his brother and Kakashi didn't killed thei best friend and got the EMS. So maybe the " kill your sibling" is also a lie.

Summary:
Madara activated the EMS and helped forming Konoha. He fights with the first hokage and loses. His body is destroyed but his spirit remains because of the EMS.
He remains as a spirit, seeking an Uchiha host to posses.
He finally finds Obito, and posses him. With the help of Zetsu, he manages to escape from the rocks.
He uses pins to make his body normal and his sharingan is healed.But he doesn't have EMS anymore because of the host.
Atack on Konoha ( but I can't see how he summoned Kyuubi without EMS)
He manipulates Itachi, promising him great power. He is doing this in order to use the best Uchiha to reactivate his EMS. Since Sasuke has more potential than Itachi, he let both of them alive from the clan. He kills the other Uchihas, so that no new EMS users shall appear.


One more thing : Kyuubi said that Madara have the same chakra as Sasuke. This might also shows why Madara needs Uchiha to restore his EMS.

My theory might be very vague and maybe I am reviving old stuff. You can ( i am asking you) to reply to my theory. But with usefull and inteligent stuff not:
"Ohh you noob that was already discused". We need to talk the Tobi= Obito and Madara since this option is still in the poll.

[ShadowStrike]

What's behind the mask? Is he really Obito?

*madara in obito body

[Decorus]

He is unlikely to be Obito....

We don't even know if he has two eyes or only one eye under that mask for all we know he looks very bishounen with two eyes or he could be a hideous freak with a mostly melted off face. Until the mask comes off its impossible to tell.

[MChief]

Everyone are talking about about tobi= obito or tobi=madara or tobi=madara and obito. But what you would say if i tell you that there is two dudes with sharingan, mask and they look the same.
Look, first we see tobi with deidra making an idiot from kimself and after that we see the same looking man in the vallay of the end talking about sasuke, snake and hawk stuff.
Next we see tobi that is making an idiot from himself....again, and after that we see the dude that looks the same and he is saying that he is mandara and he is ordering pein what to do.
Don't you think that there is too much difference in character and acting for this two chracters to be one and the same person, not mentioning about being in two places in the same time.
Say, what do you think??

[MegaX]

Don't you think that there is too much difference in character and acting for this two chracters to be one and the same person,

No. He could have been acting the part of bumbling Tobi.


not mentioning about being in two places in the same time.
Say, what do you think??

Well we already know that he's doing some funky stuff with what we've seen from his brief fight with Naruto.

[Alexis]

I really don't see 100% proof that Tobi is Madara.

I mean, the first picture says "My power.... Uchiha Madara's Power..." That could mean that he has the same power as Madara.
No that means, without question, that he refered himself as Madara. That was just a misstranslation. All the translators here agreed that he called himself Madara and that there was no other way to interpret that sentence.

The first translators translated it as "kono Uchiha Madara" when they should have translated it as "konoUchiha Madara" which means he is refering to himself as if he were a bigshot. They would have wrote it differently if they had noticed the first time that there was no gap between "kono" and "Uchiha Madara", or understood what that meant.
With a gap it means "this" refering to something/someone. Without it it means that the person is refering to himself.


Finally, the Chapter Caption doesn't even make sense. It says he founded the clan in control of every possible scenario or something. And asks what is under the mask. Can I get someone to retranslate that, or clarify?
I believe it means that Madara founded the most omnipotent clan, capable of handling any situation. And then it asks what hides under his mask, showing a picture of Tobi.

There's no question whether or not Tobi is Madara. Or at the very least, thinks himself to be Madara. As does Itachi and Pain.

[Chidorasen]

I think he might be Madara's brother. It never said that he killed his brother. I know the manga said that Madara plucked both his eyes out, but I think either he only took the left eye or his brother took one of his eye's back when Madara was defeated at VotE by the first. Maybe Madara's other eye was damaged in the fight and that's why he didn't take both. Also the best person to pose as Madara would be his brother. It said in the manga that they were both equals. Who better to pose as Madara then his equal?

It's just kinda funny that in all of Madara's pictures he only shows his left eye while his other eye is covered by his hair. Also how Tobi talks about gaining Madara's power in 3rd person. The way he acts kinda childish and how Yamato used mokuton on him, but Tobi doesn't even react to it.

Like i said in my other post in another thread. I'm most likely wrong so don't kill me :P.
I just think the whole little brother vs little brother thing would be kinda cool.

[Iwanin]

Ok, I'm not even sure this post deserves it's own thread, nor if I'm posting it in the right place, since I hardly ever go outside the spoiler/chapter discussion threads, but...

Therein I still encounter the odd soul who insists we don't yet know if Tobi is Uchiha Madara. After He said he was. After Pain said he was. After one of the chapter covers said he was. After Itachi assured Sasuke Madara was alive.

However, despite all that, the most definitive piece of evidence, to me, may be found on the summary pages of volume 41, wherein we see "Tobi" with the caption "Uchiha Madara."

Here's the volume cover:

http://www.gamebunseki.com/Misc/cover.JPG

And here is the smoking gun:

http://www.gamebunseki.com/Misc/itsmadara.jpg

Even if you can't read kana, you can tell the first three characters on Sasuke's name, う・ち・は・(Uchiha) match the same three characters on Tobi's name.

So, the summary, written by Kishi and/or his editor for people who are new to Naruto, explains that the character is Uchiha Madara.

It doesn't get more official than this, guys. Whether or not you choose to believe it, is up to you.

[lazyboyrod]

Well I guess this was just one of those things.
Like the fourth Hokage, most of us knew he was Naruto's father since episode/chapter one but others didn't want to hear that until it wa sexplained very thuroughly.

[_ATMA]

great find glad this is finly cleared lol

[Rahan]

I hope the ones who were still in denial will finally see the light.

I was just posting about it on AS (using your post from yesterday in the spoiler thread)

[Easley]

Confirmation that Tobi is Madara, but this won't stop the Obito possession theories. I doubt Kishi could say anything to convince them until the mask is removed.

[Iwanin]

Confirmation that Tobi is Madara, but this won't stop the Obito possession theories. I doubt Kishi could say anything to convince them until the mask is removed.

Well, even if it *is* Obito being possessed, wouldn't that still technically make it Madara? Did anyone refer to the characters Orochimaru was possessing as anything other than "Orochimaru"? We even knew the name of one of them.

Did ayone ever stop refering to Sasori as "Sasori" because he was technically no more than a chakra laced brain?

People started saying "Kabuto-maru" and "Orobuto" because Orochimaru's conciousness was clearly there alongside Kabuto's own. Even if Madara's possessing someone's body, he ain't sharing the driver's seat.

In that sense, it's Madara, no matter what kind of body he's in, or whom it originally belonged to.

;)

[Easley]

Well, even if it *is* Obito being possessed, wouldn't that still technically make it Madara? Did anyone refer to the characters Orochimaru was possessing as anything other than "Orochimaru"? We even knew the name of one of them.

Did ayone ever stop refering to Sasori as "Sasori" because he was technically no more than a chakra laced brain?

People started saying "Kabuto-maru" and "Orobuto" because Orochimaru's conciousness was clearly there alongside Kabuto's own. Even if Madara's possessing someone's body, he ain't sharing the driver's seat.

In that sense, it's Madara, no matter what kind of body he's in, or whom it originally belonged to.
I agree, but this seems to be the argument that Obito theorists are using. The original theory was modified to include Madara but it's essentially the same - the one-eyed mask and name have convinced people that Obito is under there, and no amount of Madara references can sway them from that belief.

[Neuroff]

Well, even if it *is* Obito being possessed, wouldn't that still technically make it Madara? Did anyone refer to the characters Orochimaru was possessing as anything other than "Orochimaru"? We even knew the name of one of them.

Did ayone ever stop refering to Sasori as "Sasori" because he was technically no more than a chakra laced brain?

People started saying "Kabuto-maru" and "Orobuto" because Orochimaru's conciousness was clearly there alongside Kabuto's own. Even if Madara's possessing someone's body, he ain't sharing the driver's seat.

In that sense, it's Madara, no matter what kind of body he's in, or whom it originally belonged to.

;)
Haha, I've been saying this kind of stuff for a while, but nobody listens.

[Iwanin]

I agree, but this seems to be the argument that Obito theorists are using. The original theory was modified to include Madara but it's essentially the same - the one-eyed mask and name have convinced people that Obito is under there, and no amount of Madara references can sway them from that belief.

Tobis are actually birds of prey (called black kites), just like hawks.

The three Uchiha each have their identifying bird:

Sasuke: Hawk
Itachi: Crow
Madara: Black Kite

Here's their wiki entry:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Kite

Pretty bad-ass little bird, if you ask me.

[Alexis]

I agree, but this seems to be the argument that Obito theorists are using. The original theory was modified to include Madara but it's essentially the same - the one-eyed mask and name have convinced people that Obito is under there, and no amount of Madara references can sway them from that belief.
To say things like "the theory has been modified" and "no amount of Madara references can sway them from that belief" you come off as rather bitter.

I've never modified anything. I thought he might be Obito after it was revealed that he had Sharingan and was Uchiha Madara. Reason being that I couldn't picture Obito becoming a badguy. But with Madara having to extend his life somehow, and Akatsuki's tendency for different forms of body posession, it made more sense.

Three major things have fallen into place since people first brought this up.

1.) He has a Sharingan in his right eye.
2.) Tobi is in need of som form of life extention, which would give Obito a purpose to be used.
3.) Kakashi was the first one to see his Sharingan.

Rather than thinking of it as lucky, it can also be seen as pieces of the puzzle falling into place. At this point I don't think there could be any more Obito hints without actually revealing that it's him. And this is most likely intentional from Kishimoto. At least I find it very hard to believe he would overlook these things. That doesn't mean that it is Obito. But just the fact that Kishimoto is most likely doing this intentionally means that people are reacting to it the way he wants. So there's nothing wrong with that.
Believe in it or don't. Theorize on it or question it. But definitely acknowledge it.

[Decorus]

No Kishimoto is not doing this intentionally, I think Kishimoto would laugh in your face if he heard the Obito theory. Then after he spent 20 or 30 minutes rolling on the floor laughing at you he would politely ask you where you came up with this idea.

1. We don't know if Madara has one eye or two eyes.
2. How do you know he needs some form of life extension perhaps EMS gave him the secret to eternal life.
3. How does Kakashi being the first one to see his Sharingan, besides Itachi, Pein, Zetsu and Konan even matter?

Pein uses Corpses of Ninja who Jiraiya knew for his bodies.
Kakazu stole the hearts from other ninja to extend his life.
Hidan's beliefs made him Immortal.
Itachi was hardly anything more then an ordinary human being.
Sasori made himself into a puppet.

There is no real pattern in how the Akatsuki choose to extend thier lifespan. In Pein's case we aren't even sure if he is alive in the first place.

[Easley]

To say things like "the theory has been modified" and "no amount of Madara references can sway them from that belief" you come off as rather bitter.

I've never modified anything. I thought he might be Obito after it was revealed that he had Sharingan and was Uchiha Madara. Reason being that I couldn't picture Obito becoming a badguy. But with Madara having to extend his life somehow, and Akatsuki's tendency for different forms of body posession, it made more sense.I'm not bitter. I'll admit that I dislike the Obito theory, especially since Madara was introduced, but also because it just doesn't make sense. It might have been feasible before Madara... after that the best reason for Obito returning was lost -- interaction with Kakashi. At least a 'bad guy' Obito could converse with him and there'd be some intense dialog, but not as a container with no mind of his own. The split personality people speak of doesn't exist. Madara talks to everyone like children because that's all they deserve (in his mind). They are beneath him - playthings to be toyed with.

I'm surprised how easily Tobi/Obito proponents accept Madara's control. They always wanted 'pure' Tobito to confront Kakashi - being a villain didn't bother them, even if it ruined KG's ending. This new theory is a watered down version of that. Not perfect but it's the next best thing (their logic, not mine). If anything, it's Obito fans who are bitter since they want him to appear no matter how illogical it would be.

[Hokuto-Tenki-Sho]

As I am the one who opened the discussion in specific 3d about Tobi's identity, would like to put some comments in this 3d as well.

First of all @Iwanin,
thanks for the "proof" you have posted about the fact that Tobi is indeed Madara. I am one of those who cannot read Japanese but nevertheless I was able to identify the first 3 characters that make the name Uchiha.
I presume that the remaining 3 make the name Madara (?).

@all the others who were quite "flaming" with their comment, dismissing other who have different opinions, almost like we were "idiots", well I could go down the same path but would like to just say that you should be a little more respectful.

Anyway I want to say that so far Kishi has been able to surprize us with thing we never though of. This is why this manga has reachead almost 400 episodes and is far from being close to its end.

If it would be so easy to predict the way things are going than it would be boring, at least for me.

[Alexis]

No Kishimoto is not doing this intentionally, I think Kishimoto would laugh in your face if he heard the Obito theory. Then after he spent 20 or 30 minutes rolling on the floor laughing at you he would politely ask you where you came up with this idea.
Is it possible for you to make posts without being so condescending, or is that the only way you can give weight to your arguments?

So Kishimoto of all people hasn't noticed all the similarities with Obito, and just about every reader on the planet has? He sure isn't avoiding it either. I very much doubt that. He would be the first one to notice how he shapes Tobi, and how pretty much every single thing about him matches up to Obito right now (that we know of) even down to his name. Tobi with jumbled letters spells Obit. And the only way to write Obit in Japanese is O-bi-to. That's not intentional? Yeah... one hell of a coincidence then.


1. We don't know if Madara has one eye or two eyes.
2. How do you know he needs some form of life extension perhaps EMS gave him the secret to eternal life.
3. How does Kakashi being the first one to see his Sharingan, besides Itachi, Pein, Zetsu and Konan even matter?

1.) Yeah we don't "know" much yet. No need to point that out though.
2.) That's also a form of life extension.
3.) Because many who thought he was Obito also thought that Madara would first reveal his Sharingan to Kakashi.

Apparently you failed to see what those three points were, because you start to point out the obvious that they may not turn out to apply to Obito.
Yeah, they may not. I never said otherwise. These aren't undisputable evidence or certainties. These are just points that have fallen into place regarding the Obito theory. Things that were predicted to happen since day one. They may turn out to have different meanings, but I didn't think I needed to point that out to anyone as it's pretty obvious. None of it is to prove that he is Obito, so there is no need to point out that there are "things we don't know yet". Everyone is aware of that.

[Decorus]

Its possible, I can be quite nice. Kishimoto has done everything except take out a 3 page ad in the New York Times proclaiming Tobi's identity to be Madara. Even in the nonexistent chance that Madara is walking around in Obito's body he would not be Obito. Obito is dead and buried, they dug him up and reburied him in Konoha or torched his body. They put his Goggles you know the ones that were buried under a ton of rubble at the monument. So obviously Konoha recovered his corpse.

Let me ask a simple question.

Why are you so obsessed with bringing back a character whose only purpose was to die to give Kakashi his sharingan?

[Alexis]

Let me ask a simple question.

Why are you so obsessed with bringing back a character whose only purpose was to die to give Kakashi his sharingan?
You can't ask about someone's theory without saying they're "obsessed" with it? That's not very original. I don't like how when it starts off with downputting remarks, it downspirals into more insults and flames.

The reason I like the idea about Obito returning? (In whatever form.)
That is mainly because I'm a believer of Kakashi's story moving towards his death. He is just about the only main character in the series without a rival, a goal or a dream. He has no personal attachments to others the same way the other main characters do.
If he is going to die, then I hope that the one he fights in the end is someone who has a personal relation to him. Someone that means something to him. To fight his old friend again, or to "set him free" from Madara, returning the favor that Obito did fort him 15 years ago, I think that would be very dramatic.

As for his goggles, he didn't even bring them into the cave. He left them outside.

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/5284/grggrqx8.jpg

An excavation doesn't seem likely because of the war situation. You don't waste manpower on excavating dead bodies while your comrades on the battlefield need support. Even going off to rescue your living friends is frowned upon. But waste time digging up dead bodies while at war? Minato obviously wouldn't allow that when they could support their comrades on the battlefield instead, who are in actual need of help.
And if Madara is using Obito's body, then I still think it is Madara's personality. I never said otherwise. I think if that's the case, part of Obito's conciousness may still be there. And while Madara does all these hanaeus acts, he might be forced to watch as it happens.

[Decorus]

Minato singlehandedly won the entire battle, the war was over at that point.

Kakashi is unlikely to die. Everyone Kakashi cares about is dead so for him forming attachments with other people is exceptionally difficult, because they will likely die on him. Naruto has no relation with Pein or Madara or any of the other Akatsuki. Do you know how tiresome and absolutely crappy writing it is for a dead character to spontanously come back from the dead in any capacity? Doing what you want would completely devalue what Obito said as he died. Obito is not gone from Kakashi, he carries him where ever he goes so bringing him back to life devalues the meaning of him giving Kakashi his eye.

Bringing back Obito in any form cheapens the entire Kakashi Gaiden arc to the point of being worthless dribble and would cheapen the entire story that gives us a rare insight into why Kakashi is the way he is.

So There is nothing to gain or improve on Kakashi by jumping the shark and bringing Obito back except to piss on Obito the character and the sacrifice he made.

I find it insulting that anyone would even suggest such an action.

[ornis]

As I am the one who opened the discussion in specific 3d about Tobi's identity, would like to put some comments in this 3d as well.

First of all @Iwanin,
thanks for the "proof" you have posted about the fact that Tobi is indeed Madara. I am one of those who cannot read Japanese but nevertheless I was able to identify the first 3 characters that make the name Uchiha.
I presume that the remaining 3 make the name Madara (?).

マダラ（真鱈）- Madara - Gadus macrocephalus (Pacific Cod)

Relevant source example: 真鱈 【まだら】 (n) (uk) Pacific cod (Gadus macrocephalus)

Route to example: Accessed Jim Breen's WWWJDIC Japanese Dictionary Server (http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/wwwjdic.html) > Selected "Search for Words in the Dictionary" > Typed Madara in space for "KEYWORD" entry > Checked adjacent box that identifies Madara as a romanized Japanese word > Selected "Begin Search" > Considered and supplied first result.

Supplementing source for validating Gadus macrocephalus' translation to Madara in (romanized) Japanese is as follows:
Biodiversity occurrence data provided by: Catalogue of Life: 2007 Annual Checklist (Accessed through GBIF Data Portal, www.gbif.net (http://www.gbif.net), 2008-03-28)

[Hokuto-Tenki-Sho]

Bringing back Obito in any form cheapens the entire Kakashi Gaiden arc to the point of being worthless dribble and would cheapen the entire story that gives us a rare insight into why Kakashi is the way he is.

So There is nothing to gain or improve on Kakashi by jumping the shark and bringing Obito back except to piss on Obito the character and the sacrifice he made.

not sure why an Obito coming back in any form would cheapen Kakashi and his story. This is you opinion but leave to others to feel differently about it.



I find it insulting that anyone would even suggest such an action.

I could say that insulting is the attitude of a person who considers his opinion the one and only truth. We should all learn to "debate" without pretending to be the chosen one.

There was only 1 person in history who brought the truth and he lived 2000+ years ago and was crucified by the Romans, and even that can be disputed based on your own faith.

[Decorus]

How can you be sure I am not god?

Kishimoto has stated Tobi is Uchiha Madara so there is only one perspective that matters His. Any other interpretation is no longer valid.

Actually according to the Christian religion quite a few people brought the truth, but that would require a theological discussion. Its also hard to argue the points that Jesus a black man lived 2,000 years ago was crucified by the Romans. Its the truth that can be argued about. Given how he was against organized religion and the accumulation of wealth it can be argued that none of the religions spawned from his belief structure actually accepted his truth.

[Black/Light]

How can you be sure I am not god?


I may not believe in a "god" but Im pretty sure she wouldn't be so uppity about people thinking Madara is in Obito's body (lmao ^_^)

And I agree with Alexis for once. (Dont have anything against Alexis, I just simply don't agree with some of his post sometimes)

[ornis]

While this involves a compelling point, I have to redirect any further debate concerning Religion to this thread. (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12300)Please note that I only boldface my hyperlinks because I prefer that they stand out in such a fashion.
[hr]
Also note that I decline to define what point I consider compelling in this discussion.

[Gold Knight]

Okay.

This WAS an interesting thread, until condescending posts centered around only one purpose: to mock people with different opinions, ruined it. Please stay civilized. If you are not able to post here without seeming to be disdainful of other people's opinions, stay out.

And yes, that is a warning; we will otherwise toss you right out of the forums if you can't act cordially. Thanks.

[Frostman]

It might be a little to late for this, the second character in ya-ma-to's name is the same as the fourth character in Tobi's name. The last character in sa-ku-ra's name is also the same as the last in tobi's.

[badluckartist]

Well, even if it *is* Obito being possessed, wouldn't that still technically make it Madara? Did anyone refer to the characters Orochimaru was possessing as anything other than "Orochimaru"? We even knew the name of one of them.

Did ayone ever stop refering to Sasori as "Sasori" because he was technically no more than a chakra laced brain?

People started saying "Kabuto-maru" and "Orobuto" because Orochimaru's conciousness was clearly there alongside Kabuto's own. Even if Madara's possessing someone's body, he ain't sharing the driver's seat.

In that sense, it's Madara, no matter what kind of body he's in, or whom it originally belonged to.

;)

We didn't call Orochimaru by any of his host's names because they weren't relevent to the story. Orochimaru's possessions resulted in a dominant takeover that completely subdued the host. His takeover was unsuccessful on Sasuke and he never even used it on Kabuto.

Sasori was still Sasori, him being a heart in a puppet's body really means absolutely nothing to the Tobi/Obito/Madara theory(ies). The puppets had no consciousness whatsoever.

I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that Tobi isn't entirely Madara 100% of the time. "He's not sharing the driver's seat"? Yeah, because he always acts like a badass villain, especially when he's goofing off and acting like a retard 90% of the time. Now why would a supreme villain such as Uchiha Madara (as cocky as those damned Uchiha get when they get power) have to act stupid when he's around his subordinates, and even when nobody of importance is looking?

[Gold Knight]

The original poster of this thread has asked the thread be closed, since it's served its purpose and the discussion wasn't very good... so - closing it.

[Nasuke]

As requested by someone in the forum, I will try to explain who I believe to be Tobi.

First of all, I will explain why Tobi is none other than Uchiha Madara. The reason is quite simple: Chapter 396 vs Chapter 386. If one takes a look at the picture of Uchiha Madara when Sasuke was caught in Tsukiyoumi, you can notice the eyelines that lie above and below his right eye. When Madara uncovered his face to Sasuke in this chapter, we saw the following picture:

http://img242.imagevenue.com/loc192/th_56557_Untitled_122_192lo.jpg

We can see that the eyelines that are there are a perfect match of what we see on Madara when he was young. Why does Madara wear a mask? Simple, to conceal his identity. He would not want many people to know that someone who was around during the founding of Konoha to be alive until now. Furthermore, he was supposedly defeated at the Valley of the End, therefore he would want that to remain the case as he would be able to act behind the shadows, as he has been until now as Akatsuki's founder.

'No, Tobi is in fact Kakashi's best friend, Uchiha Obito, and the mask and bolts prove it.'
If someone was caught in a landslide, and a boulder crushes you, then thats it. The right hand side of Obito was completely crushed under the boulder, therefore his eyes would have definitely become slurry at that point. Unless we dwelve into demonic magic here, Obito cannot possibly be alive. In addition, the so called bolts and screws are just what Tobi wears as armor. Proof that it is indeed armor is that we see him in Chapter 396 without the bolts and screws on his right, meaning that his body is in one shape and is hole.

'Okay, if he is Uchiha Madara, how did he survive from the founding of Konoha?'
While just a theory, I believe that Sakura answered that question for us in Chapter 395. Madara is able to use space-time ninjutsu to teleport himself to any location he desires, that is how he teleported 40km in an instant and got to Sasuke even than one of the fastest travellers, Zetsu. This is also how he escaped Deidera's explosion, and how he disappeared when he was talking to Pain and Konan. Sakura deduced that if he can freely use space-time ninjutsu, then that means he would be able to teleport different parts of his body, and make it look like the opponent has just passed through them. What if Madara can use this exact methodology to replace his hearts like Kakuzu? If one can survive on just replacing hearts like Kakuzu, then Madara most certainly can, and it would explain why he has survived for so long, and why he cannot be defeated using conventional attacks such as Rasengan and Gatsuga (I believe that is the name of Kiba's attack).

I believe that to be the correct explanation to Madara's survival until now. His teleportation technique is most likely the technique that was awakened with his eternal Mangekyou Sharingan. The reason I say this is because of Kakashi's MS technique, where he is able to teleport objects to other dimensions, and that is only with one transplanted eye. Imagine if you had both eyes and were a full fledged Uchiha, not only would you be able to teleport objects and body parts to other dimensions that you look at, but you can most likely teleport yourself to a dimension of your own choosing.

Thats it from my end guys! I hope you enjoyed this as much as I enjoyed typing it.

What do you guys think? :)

[IchigoSoul]

Haha true. Most likely an MS technique. That space-time ninjustu is even better than the fourth's...I think we cant deduce anything yet, Kishi loves to spring up some suprises

[Zeus-Tails]

Everyone keeps talking about Obito being gone because a rock fell on him. This is Naruto, people disappear into thin air, people travel in grounds and trees, people shed themselves. I can definitely believe someone survives a rock falling on them in this manga.

[gfire2]

if find the statement abt teleporting body parts to be stupid, but overall its a decent theory

[Umbra Wolf]

First, I've to say that you explained your theories very well and very well structured. I love to read long thoughtful theories like this one.



Madara's teleportation technique is most likely the technique that was awakened with his eternal Mangekyou Sharingan. The reason I say this is because of Kakashi's MS technique, where he is able to teleport objects to other dimensions, and that is only with one transplanted eye.
This point is a bit problematic though I totally agree with the rest of your thoughts. As far as we know Kakashi has a "simple" MS because he knew about the deteriorating eyesight which comes with the awakening of the MS but Madara has the EMS. So you shouldn't think of their eyes as equal.
But I agree that Madara's spice-/timejutsu might be the missing link between Kakashi's MS and Itachi's MS and their jutsus because Itachi didn't use something like that (except his susanoo summoning but that's debatable).

[Dice]

If it's a skill of his sharingan should there be no need to see the parts he want to teleport (since it's a dojutsu)? It's just a guess but until now every sharinganskill only worked because the exes made contact with their target and so it should be hard use a jutsu on your own head without a mirror...

Ohh I can agree with the rest you said. Although I think there could be a possibility that Obito is still alive/or survived that time (though I don't believe the Obito-theory and highly doubt it and don't want that to happen^^).

[Scias]

And you all seem to forget that Kakashi told the others about Tobi's high-level time/space-jutsu is even better than the one of the 4th Hokage. And since Yondaime neither was an Uchiha nor had the sharingan, it's very likely to expect this jutsu not to have any relationship to the sharingan.

At least its just a guess but I doubt that it's a doujutsu that Tobi was using against the leafs.

[JaggaJack]

And you all seem to forget that Kakashi told the others about Tobi's high-level time/space-jutsu is even better than the one of the 4th Hokage. And since Yondaime neither was an Uchiha nor had the sharingan, it's very likely to expect this jutsu not to have any relationship to the sharingan.

At least its just a guess but I doubt that it's a doujutsu that Tobi was using against the leafs.

He didn't know he was Uchiha? Considering Kakashi can send objects, probably himself too, to other dimensions, why can't a real Uchiha with EMS do that?

[Scias]

He didn't know he was Uchiha? Considering Kakashi can send objects, probably himself too, to other dimensions, why can't a real Uchiha with EMS do that?

NO!
Why do so many people get me wrong xD

I said that it doesnt have to be a special ability of the sharingan. It could also be a normal ninjutsu. It's not assured yet but it looks like Yondaime could possibly do a space/time jutsu and he had no sharingan. At least it's what we know so far.

[Alexis]

If someone was caught in a landslide, and a boulder crushes you, then thats it. The right hand side of Obito was completely crushed under the boulder, therefore his eyes would have definitely become slurry at that point. Unless we dwelve into demonic magic here, Obito cannot possibly be alive.
Obito said "almost smashed", not completely crushed.
And this is a manga. Only Kishimoto could say whether Obito could be used as a host body or not. Akatsuki are comprised of many people who extend their life through using other peoples bodyparts or bodies all together. Some of which are not even technically alive. (Sasori's dolls.) So we can't say for certain that Obito couldn't have been used. It's more a question of why he would be used.

But that said, Tobi's eyelines do look simmilar to Madara, besides that second one. I think there's a higher chance that he still has his original body now. Though until I see his whole face I won't say it's for certain what lies behind that mask.

[Jehuty]

NO!
Why do so many people get me wrong xD

I said that it doesnt have to be a special ability of the sharingan. It could also be a normal ninjutsu. It's not assured yet but it looks like Yondaime could possibly do a space/time jutsu and he had no sharingan. At least it's what we know so far.
Look at the second page of the chapter. It looks like he's being sucked into his own head there.

[lazyboyrod]

Look at the second page of the chapter. It looks like he's being sucked into his own head there.

Yeah it does look like that.
But it also looks like he hit a back-flip and used his space-time jutsu just to look cool.

[Decorus]

His teleport no jutsu has nothing to do with his sharingan. You can't exactly use it to phase your body without activating your sharingan if its a sharingan doujutsu. I'm pretty sure one of the Konoha ninja like Hinata, Sakura, Kakashi or even Naruto would have noticed him turning sharingan on and off every time he phased out part of his body especially given how the mask is designed to draw a person looking at it directly into his eye.

[lazyboyrod]

His teleport no jutsu has nothing to do with his sharingan. You can't exactly use it to phase your body without activating your sharingan if its a sharingan doujutsu. I'm pretty sure one of the Konoha ninja like Hinata, Sakura, Kakashi or even Naruto would have noticed him turning sharingan on and off every time he phased out part of his body especially given how the mask is designed to draw a person looking at it directly into his eye.

It could have been on the whole time, it might just be a coincidence that Kakashi saw the sharingan at the end.

[lordHokage]

It could have been on the whole time, it might just be a coincidence that Kakashi saw the sharingan at the end.


I don't think Madara's Sharingan is on all the time, if that was the case, the late Deidara-senpai and others members would have noticed his Sharingan by now. :blink

[lazyboyrod]

I don't think Madara's Sharingan is on all the time, if that was the case, the late Deidara-senpai and others members would have noticed his Sharingan by now. :blink

No I mean all throughout his run in with Konoha!

[lordHokage]

No I mean all throughout his run in with Konoha!


Either Madara is stupid or he was overlooked Kakashi-sensei Sharingan. :blink

[Kalkojutsu]

To me there are 2 great mysteries i can't understand among Naruto fans:
the proliferation of Obito's return spoilers and Iruka's popularity rating

???

[akatsuki27]

I hope this spoiler is the real thing, long live Uchiha Obito. :occa

more like he's long dead

[bean]

To me there are 2 great mysteries i can't understand among Naruto fans:
the proliferation of Obito's return spoilers and Iruka's popularity rating

???


the iruka one I can't explain...but the obitobi one has some foundation to it...the mystery that kishi has pumped into tobi only fuels the fire that was once a candle.

[Decorus]

Kishimoto has nothing to do with Obito, its purely a thing created by fan boys.

[Kalkojutsu]

the iruka one I can't explain...but the obitobi one has some foundation to it...the mystery that kishi has pumped into tobi only fuels the fire that was once a candle.

Yeah, but now every character in the manga has called Tobi "Madara" at least one time, and there still are numberous spoilers about Obito's face behind Tobi's mask
THAT is unbelievable, unless spoiler makers quit reading Naruto a few months ago

[bean]

Kishimoto has nothing to do with Obito, its purely a thing created by fan boys.


so the one eye hole in the mask doesn't hint at obito? the name tobi, doesn't hint at obito? the full body masking doesn't hint at obito? kishi has a lot to do with that...
[hr]

Yeah, but now every character in the manga has called Tobi "Madara" at least one time, and there still are numberous spoilers about Obito's face behind Tobi's mask
THAT is unbelievable, unless spoiler makers quit reading Naruto a few months ago


he can still be madara and be someone else...i know that sounds odd, but this is naruto the manga we're talking about.

[Kalkojutsu]

he can still be madara and be someone else...i know that sounds odd, but this is naruto the manga we're talking about.
Are you saying Madara could be Obito? :blink
It would be easier to me to imagine that Kisame is Tsunade's lover Dan

[bean]

Are you saying Madara could be Obito? :blink


in a sense, yeah.

if oro ever did take over sasuke's body:

oro: hey guys, look at me, I'm oro!
anyone: but you look like sasuke...
oro: oh yeah, I forgot...let me fix that (does the face change thing)
oro: there, hey guys, look at me, I'm oro...and I got my sharingans!
anyone: ...ok...

[kigai]

Ok then im saying that madara is madara now lets wait and see XD

[bean]

you're assuming that we're saying that tobi/madara IS obito, when we're not exactly saying that...we're saying that madara is using obito's body and in a sense he is obito. We're not saying he's a dual personality of madara and obito, but madara through obito...get it?

[Kalkojutsu]

Oro- Orochimaru is a good boy
Kabuto- Com'on Orochimaru you bastard i'll kick your ass
Oro- Noooo Sempai i was just kidding

:notrust

[Huey Freeman]

:wall

I really cannot wait until we really find out who is behind that mask. It's not like Obito is the only possible human being in the Naruto ninja world to lose an eye. Not to mention the fact that we don't even know for sure if he really only has one freakin' eye. Maybe, just maybe, he keeps it covered like Kakashi because he cannot deactivate the transferred eye! Maybe the name Tobi...is just a name. Maybe, just maybe people really do die in the narutoverse after being crushed under tons of rocks. Maybe...that's all I'm saying...maybe...:noworry

[lazyboyrod]

Either Madara is stupid or he was overlooked Kakashi-sensei Sharingan. :blink

Well since he's like 130 years old Im pretty sure he's heard of Kakashi, he's like a legend i Konoha and neigboring countries, but yeah could just be stupid lol!

[Zoro-kun]

Do anyone know who Tobi is?? One of my guesses is that he is Obito (kakashi's friend) but now in the latest chapter we could see that sasuke had lost the sharingan in one of his eyes... maybe Tobi took it?

But what i really think; is that Tobi is Madara, and madara/tobi has only 1 eye because he has devoloped his sharingan so far that he only can have/only need, one eye. Maybe the same thing happend to Sasuke now?? When he beated Itachi he got the last and final form of Sharingan..?

[Shiro-kun]

I highly doubt the Tobitodra spoiler is valid
so i see no worth in debating it

[Nasuke]

Whoever made that theory up is creative, I gotta give him that. To split your soul up into chakra, now thats the thing that even the Naruto fillers didn`t cover. And I mean, as many people have said, why would the strongest Uchiha choose to occupy a boy whose half-crushed under rocks. I`m pretty sure that Obito was not the only Uchiha to die when Obito died so Im sure there were much better choices. I`m positive its a fake. ~_~

[Alexis]

Whoever made that theory up is creative, I gotta give him that. To split your soul up into chakra, now thats the thing that even the Naruto fillers didn`t cover. And I mean, as many people have said, why would the strongest Uchiha choose to occupy a boy whose half-crushed under rocks. I`m pretty sure that Obito was not the only Uchiha to die when Obito died so Im sure there were much better choices. I`m positive its a fake. ~_~
I thought the explanation was too simple though, even if it may be concidered creative. After all this time you'd expect some sort of interesting twist. Like how Itachi was after Sasuke's eyes. Just that he sent his soul out in the form of chakra seems like it wouldn't give much of a wow factor.

[Espada82]

Well if that latest spoiler is true concerning Madara taking Obito's body this board is going to be in quite an uproar.

The spoiler may be fake or not but, time will tell and the explanation given by Madara/Tobi is certainly plausible in the Naruto world given how many powerful Shinobi, primarily in Akatsuki has devised a way to become immortal. Makes sense for the leader to become immortal/steal bodies as well.

Peroanlly I was always on board with the idea of Madara/Tobi being Obito. I have not jumped into every ridiculous argument because god knows there is no scientific way to prove such a thing. Its a comic afte rall where the creator can do as he pleases and explain it away later.

Thats being said there were to many foreshadowing and clues being dropped to ignore the Tobi/Obito theory. The name similarity, the left eye only of Tobi being shown, and the latest was Kakashi spotting that Sharingan.

So continue to count me as one who to believe in that Tobi/Obito theory regardless of the veracity of this latest spoiler, until proven otherwise.

[narutokuro]

Tha's a memorial stone ... I repeat, not a grave.

I am well aware of it. This episode should be within the first 150 before sasuke leaves. Kakashi blatantly uses obito's name in front of sauske. Something like before we go train i we must stop to pay tribute to obito. When i find it i expect someone to paypal me a dollar for every skeptic! Lol.

[Shiro-kun]

I am well aware of it. This episode should be within the first 150 before sasuke leaves. Kakashi blatantly uses obito's name in front of sauske. Something like before we go train i we must stop to pay tribute to obito. When i find it i expect someone to paypal me a dollar for every skeptic! Lol.

that never happen
and
he says "most of his love ones already are dead"

[Espada82]

I was going to say just the same (just without the wrongspelling)

LOL my bad about the spelliing.

But to the Obito/Tobi idea it really is quite plausible for a number of storytelling reasons. Obviously as I said it cant be proved scientifically, nothing can in this type of fictional world.

However, consider this in addition to the clues already dropped:

Tobi/Obito theory would make the Kakashi Gaiden far more meaningful. As the Akatsuki storyline comes to a close with the final villain is a guy that was hinted at before the arc started. Nice bookends.

Also, Kishi has liked to point to the whole history repeats itself as time moves forward theme, so Kakasi having hsi best friends body "possessed" by a villian and Naruto and his attempts to prevent the same thing from happening to Sasuke would be another theme repeating itself in a way.

[Alexis]

LOL my bad about the spelliing.

But to the Obito/Tobi idea it really is quite plausible for a number of storytelling reasons. Obviously as I said it cant be proved scientifically, nothing can in this type of fictional world.

However, consider this in addition to the clues already dropped:

Tobi/Obito theory would make the Kakashi Gaiden far more meaningful. As the Akatsuki storyline comes to a close with the final villain is a guy that was hinted at before the arc started. Nice bookends.

Also, Kishi has liked to point to the whole history repeats itself as time moves forward theme, so Kakasi having hsi best friends body "possessed" by a villian and Naruto and his attempts to prevent the same thing from happening to Sasuke would be another theme repeating itself in a way.
http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/9752/dsdsdslt6.jpg
Foreshadowing!!11

[Espada82]

SO apparently although Tobi/Obito theory appeared in the latest spoiler we cant discuss it in the spoiler thread. Who knew? Only here!

Anyway, could Tobi/Madara be Obito in some fashion? Sure, we have had some hints that point ot that.

But to those who say "impossible" I say, then who/what is he? how do you explain all his little characteristics that point to a connection with Obito?

[Kalkojutsu]

I think now we can say the correct answer to the poll was "Madara"

[Decorus]

Kishimoto has even identified Tobi as Uchiha Madara by name when listing the members of the Akatsuki.

[Toby_Temple]

Tobi is Madara Uchiha all in all, mind and body. The last chapter which reveals his eye shows distinct similarities with the younger Madara Uchiha portrayed in Itachi's narration. Another evidence is Pein's acknowledgement of Tobi being Madara Uchiha.

The theory that Madara is currently possessing Obito's body is very unlikely/highly improbable due to the fact that Obito died due to being crushed by boulders and rocks. Another evidence is the survival of Obito's right sharingan. Obito offered only his left sharingan to Kakashi, then it is safe to conclude that Obito knew his right eye is no longer of any use. Another evidence is the retrieval of Obito's body. It may not be literally implied in the manga but, based on Kakashi, Rin and Obito's bond, it is very likely that those 2 opt to retrieve the dead body of their fallen comrade when it was safe to return to the site. Maybe the 4th Hokage went with them also. Another evidence is that Madara, if he could possess bodies, would logically not opt to possess a destroyed body. If Madara could possess bodies, then Itachi or any other healthy Uchiha would suffice.

Just my two cents. BOW :D

[Kusachu]

Oh, didn't you hear? Tobi is Uchiha Fuugaku now!! He decided to become emo and dye his hair black. Oh and it's just a fluke that he was dead. :D *sigh*

[lordHokage]

Oh, didn't you hear? Tobi is Uchiha Fuugaku now!! He decided to become emo and dye his hair black. Oh and it's just a fluke that he was dead. :D *sigh*


If Madara turns out to be Uchiha Fugaku, then Pein is really Namikaze Minato and Kishimoto-sama has out done himself. :blink

[KnuckleheadedNinja]

i think he does know naruto is the 4th son

[Tsukisama]

If Madara already knows this much about what has been going on in Konoha to know about the secret political conspiracy involving the Uchiha massacre, then I don't think it would be that hard to imagine he knows a little something about the guy who foiled his plan to unleash the Kyubi or the kid in which he is sealed.

Orochimaru was a member of the Akatsuki at one point, and Oro knew of Minato and probably knew about his son; so, if Madara needed to find out information on them, he could have gotten it from him, but I think that Madara probably knew Naruto's lineage before Orochimaru's involvement in Akatsuki.

[mars0103]

If Madara already knows this much about what has been going on in Konoha to know about the secret political conspiracy involving the Uchiha massacre, then I don't think it would be that hard to imagine he knows a little something about the guy who foiled his plan to unleash the Kyubi or the kid in which he is sealed.

Orochimaru was a member of the Akatsuki at one point, and Oro knew of Minato and probably knew about his son; so, if Madara needed to find out information on them, he could have gotten it from him, but I think that Madara probably knew Naruto's lineage before Orochimaru's involvement in Akatsuki.

well there are thing that are making me think:-
why was naruto picked
why naruto has a strong resistence to the kyubi
why the delay in the masscra (punishment)

I have a idea on it but but i have to go in the realms of fanfiction.

why was naruto picked - the 4th new that someone would try again to summon
why naruto has a strong resistence to the kyubi - the 4th new that his wife was the 5th offspring and this mean related to the 1st
why the delay in the masscra (punishment)- to get info on the event

[Raizen]

well there are thing that are making me think:-
why was naruto picked
why naruto has a strong resistence to the kyubi
why the delay in the masscra (punishment)

I have a idea on it but but i have to go in the realms of fanfiction.

why was naruto picked - the 4th new that someone would try again to summon
why naruto has a strong resistence to the kyubi - the 4th new that his wife was the 5th offspring and this mean related to the 1st
why the delay in the masscra (punishment)- to get info on the event
I'm sorry I don't get the wife and offspring thing.

[Konkun]

I guess what Mars was saying is that Kushina might be the daughter of Tsunade, which means that her kid, Naruto, inherited the ability to suppress Bijuu's powers; which means Naruto is the great grandson of Shodaime.

On topic, I don't think Madara knows about Naruto's parents, unless it is yet to be revealed.

[Sharikaaria]

There's really no proof that Tsunade ever had a kid, and Kushina was a whirpool nin, not native to Konoha.

When Minato was hokage, people like Orochimaru and Madara were out of the village. So, they couldn't have known that Kushina was going to have a baby, since that kind of knowledge wasn't even widespread around Konoha. No one in the village seems to know that Naruto is the fourth's son, besides Kakashi and Tsunade (I would say sandaime and Jiraiya as well... but they're gone). If they did, they would have treated him better.

If Madara summoned the kyuubi to attack Konoha, which he probably did, he most likely did not expect Minato to seal it away. If he knew about Minato's abilities, he would have made a plan to sidestep them. Jiraiya also suspected that Minato "knew something" right before the village was attacked. Minato must have realized something last minute about the coming danger and rushed to protect everyone before he could tell anyone about what he knew. Madara was probably taken by surprise, but there is little to suggest that he knew the kyuubi was sealed in Minato's son. He probably thought it was sealed in some random newborn.

[Yondaime Uzumaki]

There's really no proof that Tsunade ever had a kid, and Kushina was a whirpool nin, not native to Konoha.

When Minato was hokage, people like Orochimaru and Madara were out of the village. So, they couldn't have known that Kushina was going to have a baby, since that kind of knowledge wasn't even widespread around Konoha. No one in the village seems to know that Naruto is the fourth's son, besides Kakashi and Tsunade (I would say sandaime and Jiraiya as well... but they're gone). If they did, they would have treated him better.

If Madara summoned the kyuubi to attack Konoha, which he probably did, he most likely did not expect Minato to seal it away. If he knew about Minato's abilities, he would have made a plan to sidestep them. Jiraiya also suspected that Minato "knew something" right before the village was attacked. Minato must have realized something last minute about the coming danger and rushed to protect everyone before he could tell anyone about what he knew. Madara was probably taken by surprise, but there is little to suggest that he knew the kyuubi was sealed in Minato's son. He probably thought it was sealed in some random newborn.

That is, more or less, what I am saying. I think that Minato decided made the ones that known about his son vow not to speak of it to keep his legacy a secret. I'm pretty sure that Minato knew that Madara sent the kyuubi and that was just a precaution. Like I said before, if I were Madara and the guy that foiled my plans the first time had a son, he would've been abducted at a very young age. Who could've stopped him??? Sandaime??? I doubt it. I just like to think that Minato was smart enough to realize that keeping his son a secret would be the best thing to do.

[Raizen]

I think during the fight with the kyubi, Minato realized something dangerous about the uchiha clan and probably tole saidame and then order their assasination.

If so Naruto and Sasuke will have some bad blood.

But anyways, I don't believe that Madara knows about the 4th son, Minato went to all this trouble to hid it that I am sure only maybe 10 ninjas know. Also if oro doesn't know, I doubt Madara knows

[lordHokage]

I think during the fight with the kyubi, Minato realized something dangerous about the uchiha clan and probably tole saidame and then order their assasination.

If so Naruto and Sasuke will have some bad blood.

But anyways, I don't believe that Madara knows about the 4th son, Minato went to all this trouble to hid it that I am sure only maybe 10 ninjas know. Also if oro doesn't know, I doubt Madara knows


Minato wanted the whole village to know that his beloved son was their hero not him but Konoha's top brass had other plans for Naruto's identity. I am quite sure that Madara knows who Naruto father is. :blink

[KnuckleheadedNinja]

I think during the fight with the kyubi, Minato realized something dangerous about the uchiha clan and probably tole saidame and then order their assasination.

If so Naruto and Sasuke will have some bad blood.

But anyways, I don't believe that Madara knows about the 4th son, Minato went to all this trouble to hid it that I am sure only maybe 10 ninjas know. Also if oro doesn't know, I doubt Madara knows

i'm sure madara know that the 4th sealed the kyuubi in his son and given the fact that he known that naruto have the kyuubi he should know that natuto is the 4th son.

[mars0103]

There's really no proof that Tsunade ever had a kid, and Kushina was a whirpool nin, not native to Konoha.

When Minato was hokage, people like Orochimaru and Madara were out of the village. So, they couldn't have known that Kushina was going to have a baby, since that kind of knowledge wasn't even widespread around Konoha. No one in the village seems to know that Naruto is the fourth's son, besides Kakashi and Tsunade (I would say sandaime and Jiraiya as well... but they're gone). If they did, they would have treated him better.

If Madara summoned the kyuubi to attack Konoha, which he probably did, he most likely did not expect Minato to seal it away. If he knew about Minato's abilities, he would have made a plan to sidestep them. Jiraiya also suspected that Minato "knew something" right before the village was attacked. Minato must have realized something last minute about the coming danger and rushed to protect everyone before he could tell anyone about what he knew. Madara was probably taken by surprise, but there is little to suggest that he knew the kyuubi was sealed in Minato's son. He probably thought it was sealed in some random newborn.

There is no proof ya but the conversation with jiraiya and tsunade make me wonder about that she cound have a child. reading in the lines.

madara has to know because he know all about the kyubii and its abilitys

[lordHokage]

I think during the fight with the kyubi, Minato realized something dangerous about the uchiha clan and probably tole saidame and then order their assasination.


Well, according to Pervy Sage, Yondy knew something about the Uchiha clan plans. I think Madara would tell Sasuke that his beloved parents were behind Kyuubi’s attack and they were planning to kill Yondy's son as well. :blink

[enmymiguel]

madara know that naruto is minato son cause they all know that minato seal the kyuubi into hes son and naruto have the kyuubi.
plus when madara send kisame and itachi to look for naruto for the first time.
itachi waz asking for the son of the 4th hokage

[lazyboyrod]

Well, according to Pervy Sage, Yondy knew something about the Uchiha clan plans. I think Madara would tell Sasuke that his beloved parents were behind Kyuubi’s attack and they were planning to kill Yondy's son as well. :blink

More like they were trying to kill the whole village I dont think they targeted naruto in particular because at the time the kyuubi was already sealed in Naruto and they most likely didn't have a way to separate the two. Anyway seeing as though Madara was the one behind the Kyuubi attack I think he must have witnessed Minato do the ritual he did to seal the Kyuubi in Naruto so im pretty sure he knows.

[Yondaime Uzumaki]

madara know that naruto is minato son cause they all know that minato seal the kyuubi into hes son and naruto have the kyuubi.
plus when madara send kisame and itachi to look for naruto for the first time.
itachi waz asking for the son of the 4th hokage

How could you possibly know that they all know that minato sealed the kyuubi into his son when it hasn't even been talked about outside of Jariaya and Tsunade???

Everyone is speculating that Madara knows all and sees all but if he did he wouldn't have gotten beaten and Minato wouldn't have sealed the Kyuubi, let's be honest. Madara doesn't know everything and he doesn't see everything, even Itachi caught him by surprise and he would've been dead if it wasn't for the techniques that he kept a secret from Itachi.

There is really nothing that suggests that Madara knows about Minato's son, and vice versa.

[KnuckleheadedNinja]

How could you possibly know that they all know that minato sealed the kyuubi into his son when it hasn't even been talked about outside of Jariaya and Tsunade???

Everyone is speculating that Madara knows all and sees all but if he did he wouldn't have gotten beaten and Minato wouldn't have sealed the Kyuubi, let's be honest. Madara doesn't know everything and he doesn't see everything, even Itachi caught him by surprise and he would've been dead if it wasn't for the techniques that he kept a secret from Itachi.

There is really nothing that suggests that Madara knows about Minato's son, and vice versa.

given the fact that the kyuubi is madara pet, he should know the where about of it.

[Black/Light]

How could you possibly know that they all know that minato sealed the kyuubi into his son when it hasn't even been talked about outside of Jariaya and Tsunade???

Everyone is speculating that Madara knows all and sees all but if he did he wouldn't have gotten beaten and Minato wouldn't have sealed the Kyuubi, let's be honest. Madara doesn't know everything and he doesn't see everything, even Itachi caught him by surprise and he would've been dead if it wasn't for the techniques that he kept a secret from Itachi.

There is really nothing that suggests that Madara knows about Minato's son, and vice versa.

I think he knows, just like I think Itachi was refering to Naruto being the 4th's son when he him self would have no reason of knowing this. (Other than MD )

This guy has been looking at the leaf for years. . . he is one of 4 living people who know why Itachi killed his clan and appearantly the 4th had reason to believe that someone was behind the 9 tails attack so I do think MD kept a eye on that event as well. (As in, he may or maynot have been there when it and the sealing happened)

He knows how the leaf was formed and tons of other things. . .I see no reason why he wouldn't know this. In fact, I think he is going to get around to telling Sas this once he starts talking about Kyb attack.

[AnimeHERO]

I'LL add my 2 cents i think Madara diddent know that Naruto was Minato's son. This is becase Minato had Naruto in a secluded location during the ritual in which he transferd Kyuubi into Naruto. To support what iv said There couldent have been an informant that told Madara because the Kyuubi was seald into Naruto right after he was born Data Book II and Leaf Ninja's site support this. So that pretty much rules out him haveing been born in a hospital as some have suggested or for him to have been born for awhile and not right away when it was seald. Let's face it there were no informant's for the simple reason there were no people outside of a select few that knew about Naruto being Minato's son. Those people being Jiraiya, Tsunade, Sandaime, And Kakashi. Now some arguments have been Made that Oro was the informant they would be wrong hell Oro was long gone from the village and diddent even know about Minato's Sealing Method. It's my opinion that no one outside those i mentiond knew about Naruto's Lineage. Just go back from the first chapter on up untill he starts getting recognised. The people of Konoha only knew Naruto as the Kyuubi orphan and nothing more.

[Alexis]

I always figured that Madara knew about Naruto's lineage, but now I'm not so sure.
Itachi knew that Naruto had the Kyuubi inside him, so I don't see any other importance in hiding Naruto's identity than that.
Being Minato's son isn't what matters, but being the bearer of the Kyuubi is what's important, and what needs to be concealed. If Madara knew this, then whether or not he knew that Naruto is Minato's son seems irrelevant.

[KnuckleheadedNinja]

Itachi knew that Naruto had the Kyuubi inside him, so I don't see any other importance in hiding Naruto's identity than that.
Being Minato's son isn't what matters, but being the bearer of the Kyuubi is what's important, and what needs to be concealed. If Madara knew this, then whether or not he knew that Naruto is Minato's son seems irrelevant.

this a thread about if madara know that naruto is minato's son so it seem relevant to me.

[Jaime F.]

Well I don't want to make any assumptions, but it wouldn't surprise me if Madara new who Naruto is. The Kyuubi was sealed the same night Madara attacked the leaf village with the Kyuubi. Madara must know the Kyuubi was sealed in someone by the fouth, so I don't think it would be to hard for Madara to figure things out.

[Alexis]

this a thread about if madara know that naruto is minato's son so it seem relevant to me.
Well I was talking about story wise. And I think the topic creator made that post under the assumption that Naruto's identity was hidden because it would reveal the fact that he has the kyuubi, which is something Madara knows. And if that's what's important, then yeah, it seems irrelevant whether or not Madara knows that Naruto is Minato's son when he already knows what's important.

Not that the obvious resemblance in looks and the fact that he has the kyuubi wouldn't give it away.
Itachi called it The Fourths legacy, so if the kid that he sealed it into looks much like him, well I wouldn't be surprised if he could put two and two together.

[KnuckleheadedNinja]

Well I was talking about story wise. And I think the topic creator made that post under the assumption that Naruto's identity was hidden because it would reveal the fact that he has the kyuubi, which is something Madara knows. And if that's what's important, then yeah, it seems irrelevant whether or not Madara knows that Naruto is Minato's son when he already knows what's important.

Not that the obvious resemblance in looks and the fact that he has the kyuubi wouldn't give it away.

sorry about the misunderstanding then.

[barril]

I think that it depends on what really happened between Madara and Yondaime. If Yondaime was aware of Madara's plan to summon kyubi / destroy Konoha and if Madara knew that Yondaime was on to him I'd say the probability of Madara knowing that Naruto is Minato's son rises.

If not then Madara doesn't know about Naruto being the 4th's son.

I personally think that Madara does not know about it, but he did knew of Minato being on to him. What makes me believe that Madara doesn't know about it are Yond's actions towards Naruto (the sealing of the kyubi, the fact that he chose to give Kushina(sp?) clan name to him, etc). Why would he go to such lengths if not to conceal from everyone that he was his father? And doing so, protecting him from Madara.

[Yondaime Uzumaki]

Itachi knew that Naruto had the Kyuubi inside him, so I don't see any other importance in hiding Naruto's identity than that.
Being Minato's son isn't what matters, but being the bearer of the Kyuubi is what's important, and what needs to be concealed. If Madara knew this, then whether or not he knew that Naruto is Minato's son seems irrelevant.

No, Itachi said "the 4th's legacy" which either mean Naruto as his son or the kyuubi that Minato seled into Naruto. Kishi did that purposely. Yes, we all know that Naruto is Minato's son but that doesn't that Itachi knew that. Besides, Itachi was after the kyuubi, not Naruto.

After reading all of these post, I'm about 75% sure that Minato's intentions were to keep Naruto's lineage a secret. "barril's" post just reminded me of why I started this thread. When Jariaya was talking to the toad with naruto's key, they spoke briefly about Minato. Both Jariaya and the toad was wondering why Minato sealed the kyuubi into his own son. I think I know why. Because no one would expect him to seal the kyuubi into his own son, which would be the perfect way to hide Naruto's lineage. I doubt that they were collecting the bijuu at that time, otherwise Madara wouldn't put the kyuubi in the position to be captured by using it to attack Konoha. I'm sure that the village doesn't know because someone would have spoken on it by now. Even though their not supposed to speak about the kyuubi, they still speak about it. Also, Mizuki probably wouldn't have forgotten to mention that if he knew about it in the first chapter.

[DemonDays]

Just a random thought here.
But if Madara really is possessing Obito's body, then maybe when he goes into 'Tobi is a good boy mode', it's Obitos personality coming through....in a warped kind of way...

[nat]

No, Itachi said "the 4th's legacy" which either mean Naruto as his son or the kyuubi that Minato seled into Naruto. Kishi did that purposely. Yes, we all know that Naruto is Minato's son but that doesn't that Itachi knew that. Besides, Itachi was after the kyuubi, not Naruto.

After reading all of these post, I'm about 75% sure that Minato's intentions were to keep Naruto's lineage a secret. "barril's" post just reminded me of why I started this thread. When Jariaya was talking to the toad with naruto's key, they spoke briefly about Minato. Both Jariaya and the toad was wondering why Minato sealed the kyuubi into his own son. I think I know why. Because no one would expect him to seal the kyuubi into his own son, which would be the perfect way to hide Naruto's lineage. I doubt that they were collecting the bijuu at that time, otherwise Madara wouldn't put the kyuubi in the position to be captured by using it to attack Konoha. I'm sure that the village doesn't know because someone would have spoken on it by now. Even though their not supposed to speak about the kyuubi, they still speak about it. Also, Mizuki probably wouldn't have forgotten to mention that if he knew about it in the first chapter.


it would be kinda clever from the 4th to hid the identity of his son or at least aske that he remain unknown, but the similarities between them and the fact that the hokage was expecting a kid who vanished mysteriously will most likely get people wondering...i think that it is not a secret everyone knows about it except the younger generation (like the kyuubi secret when they were kids) and they don't talk about it. since they hated naruto, they wouldn't have wanted to recognize him as the forth's son. which means that madara, the all knowing, definately would have guessed it.

[lazyboyrod]

Just a random thought here.
But if Madara really is possessing Obito's body, then maybe when he goes into 'Tobi is a good boy mode', it's Obitos personality coming through....in a warped kind of way...

I realy dont know, He refers to himself as Madara, but the Madara that we see in the flashbacks doesnt seem to be such a happy go lucky kind of guy, he seems to be stern and serious, there is definately something going on with Madara but what I dont know.

[Yondaime Uzumaki]

it would be kinda clever from the 4th to hid the identity of his son or at least aske that he remain unknown, but the similarities between them and the fact that the hokage was expecting a kid who vanished mysteriously will most likely get people wondering...i think that it is not a secret everyone knows about it except the younger generation (like the kyuubi secret when they were kids) and they don't talk about it. since they hated naruto, they wouldn't have wanted to recognize him as the forth's son. which means that madara, the all knowing, definately would have guessed it.

See, we look at the situation completely different. You think that the villagers don't want to recognize Naruto as Minato's son because they hate Naruto and I think that they hate Naruto because thhey don't know Minato is his father. There would at least be mixed feelings about Naruto because of his father, but there seemed to be only hatred towards him, with the exception of Hinata. Just the fact that everyone was surprised that Naruto beat Kiba and Neji should say something. If I knew that he was the son of the 4th Hokage, I would not be surprised if he beat Kiba or Neji, Kakashi and Sandaime didn't seem too surprised.

Also, the fact that the 4th Hokage looks like Naruto only makes since to us because we know that Minato is Naruto's father. Yes, a lot of us predicted it but let me break it down for you. If you lived in a city and the mayor of that city looked like your best friend, would you automatically think that the mayor was his father? Probably not.

[KnuckleheadedNinja]

i have to agree with yondaime uzumaki, if the villager knew that naruto is the son of the 4th hokage i doubt they will even come close to treating him as bad as they did.

[nat]

What i meant to say, is that the villagers regarded him a monster, so even if he was the reincarnation of the 4th they would still hate/fear him. When it comes to hate and fear people don't think straight (like sasuke), that 's why the the 3rd was sad that konoha didn't see naruto as they should,a hero.

Besides ,why would itachi say that he came for the forth's "legacy" when he came to konoha?

He might have referred to the fact that the 4th sealed kyuubi in him. But at this point it remains a matter of speculation and opinions. For me I think they know who naruto's father was, and I respect your opinions that they don't.

So, unless the manga states otherwise we don't really know.

[Yondaime Uzumaki]

What i meant to say, is that the villagers regarded him a monster, so even if he was the reincarnation of the 4th they would still hate/fear him. When it comes to hate and fear people don't think straight (like sasuke), that 's why the the 3rd was sad that konoha didn't see naruto as they should,a hero.

Besides ,why would itachi say that he came for the forth's "legacy" when he came to konoha?

He might have referred to the fact that the 4th sealed kyuubi in him. But at this point it remains a matter of speculation and opinions. For me I think they know who naruto's father was, and I respect your opinions that they don't.

So, unless the manga states otherwise we don't really know.

Exactly. It's just a matter of opinion or speculation. If it was able to be proved then there wouldn't even be a reason to make a thread about it.

[nat]

Speculation is great, and discussion is what we are here for. But that doesn't mean you have to be aggressive towards people who don't share your opinion.

Having said that, i will go back to the question. Does madara know? probably, yes. the guy is the arch villain with a network of minions and spies (who maybe managed to infiltrate konoha to teach itachi). If he can't discover a secret like that, then he might not be that clever.

We were also told that rain has in impressive sysetm of security, and usually with that you need eyes and ears in other nations to give you feedback on their movements, the general mood and their secrets. If jiraiya had access to akatsuki, why wouldn't madara have access to konoha's secrets? (madara is older and more experienced than jiriaya by 2 generations.)

[Yondaime Uzumaki]

Speculation is great, and discussion is what we are here for. But that doesn't mean you have to be aggressive towards people who don't share your opinion.


Aggressive? I hate when people say that. If you took my post as agressive then that's because that is the way you read it, not the way I wrote it. I agree with you though.

[nat]

Ok, then i apologize. i must have read it wrong.

Just one question.
What importance is it to madara if naruto is the son of the 4th?
I don't see it changing any of his plans, he wants the kyuubi and nothing will stand in his way.

[Raizen]

The thing is if he knew that naruto is the 4th's son and posses the 9-tails, why didn't he attack the village w/ akatsuki after the 3rd died. That would have been the perfect chance with akatsuki at full power and the leaf in a weakened state.

In the end I think only a few individuals know about naruto: 3rd, 5th, kakashi, J-man, danzou, elders

[Yondaime Uzumaki]

Ok, then i apologize. i must have read it wrong.

Just one question.
What importance is it to madara if naruto is the son of the 4th?
I don't see it changing any of his plans, he wants the kyuubi and nothing will stand in his way.

The story is always better when the main "villian" doesn't know about a very important aspect of the characters' life, and being Minato's son would probably be the most important.

[nat]

hmmm,true.....

Let's just hope he doesn't update his plan and get a computer. Then he will discover the identity by hacking into konoha's archives....or MH,lol.

[bean]

I say he knows simply because he seems to know a lot he shouldn't...didn't he kind of hint at it? and itachi knew, right? so I'm assuming he told madara...

[Baron Hugenstein]

he probably has a computer, i mean if pain's eyes are "closed circuit tv", and zetzu is a security/video camera/plant disguise/two opinions at the same time person:darn.
actually i think zetzu is the internet guy for madara. think about it, he can be anywhere quickly and report/get stuff

---------------------------------------------
if madara seems to know about the uchiha history, and even the secret deals that were done in the past, then i wouldnt be surprised if he knew where the 9-tails was, i.e naruto.
he already lost his lovable pet to the fourth, and i think he also fought with him, and if what itachi said is true, that madara lost at the hands of the fourth... so i guess madara knows what exactly happened to the kyuubi and that naruto is the fourth's son.

[barril]

he probably has a computer, i mean if pain's eyes are "closed circuit tv", and zetzu is a security/video camera/plant disguise/two opinions at the same time person:darn.
actually i think zetzu is the internet guy for madara. think about it, he can be anywhere quickly and report/get stuff

---------------------------------------------
if madara seems to know about the uchiha history, and even the secret deals that were done in the past, then i wouldnt be surprised if he knew where the 9-tails was, i.e naruto.
he already lost his lovable pet to the fourth, and i think he also fought with him, and if what itachi said is true, that madara lost at the hands of the fourth... so i guess madara knows what exactly happened to the kyuubi and that naruto is the fourth's son.

That's it! Zetsu is google!!!!

Anyway, Madara knowing that the Kyubi is inside Naruto doesn't mean he knows who Naruto is.

If the villagers didn't know who Naruto's father was (at least they didn't seem to know) I don't see why Madara would know about that fact. Although I do agree that Madara is a recourseful guy. It would be cooler if he does not know about Minato being Narutos father.

[Baron Hugenstein]

That's it! Zetsu is google!!!!

Anyway, Madara knowing that the Kyubi is inside Naruto doesn't mean he knows who Naruto is.

If the villagers didn't know who Naruto's father was (at least they didn't seem to know) I don't see why Madara would know about that fact. Although I do agree that Madara is a recourseful guy. It would be cooler if he does not know about Minato being Narutos father.

true, the villagers dont know the ID about naruto's parents.
but im basing this post and the one before it on the fact that madara seems to know everything about the uchiha history especially after him leaving the clan and itachi's deals/actions with danzou and sandaime, which are supposed to be top secret(not even tsunade or J-man know about that truth)
if madara is able to know all that, then he should also know that naruto's father is the fourth.

[Raizen]

true, the villagers dont know the ID about naruto's parents.
but im basing this post and the one before it on the fact that madara seems to know everything about the uchiha history especially after him leaving the clan and itachi's deals/actions with danzou and sandaime, which are supposed to be top secret(not even tsunade or J-man know about that truth)
if madara is able to know all that, then he should also know that naruto's father is the fourth.
Maybe he has a spy, Danzou???. :oO
But maybe the spy does not know about the 4th and his son

[Baron Hugenstein]

Maybe he has a spy, Danzou???. :oO
But maybe the spy does not know about the 4th and his son

maybe the spy is madara himself......if orochimaru was able to blend in konoha as a sound teacher/jounin(for a little while anyway)
and madara is way older than him + plus more experience......
where was "tobi" before sasori was killed???? :blink

in chapter 400, madara says that itachi asked him to help kill the clan and he agreed, but how does madara able to kill clan members without being sighted or at least mentioned??
anyways i stand by what i said, madara should know who naruto's father is.

[wildG]

lol well madara was in a weakend state indeed after his defeat by shodai

1st. why would madara care about anyone else than shodai^^ he seems really careless to me
2nd. i think that if he wanted he could lunch an attack to konoha whenever he wants since the 2nd hokage and totally destroy it
3rd. i doupt he was behind the attack of kyuubi when minato sealed it and if he was he was probably going on easy/warming up mode till yondaime sealed it but i really doupt he went over there he was probably monitoring it by a huge distance
4th. if he wasn't stabbed by shodai i am sure that after his lose he would become even more powerfull due to gaining experience fighting the strongest ninja at that time who was shodai and sligthly after madara ^^ not to mention he was younger than shodai so with his full strength he would probably smash the village lead by nidaime

[ZeRO_]

it wouldn't matter to madara if naruto was minato's son or not

[Yondaime Uzumaki]

it wouldn't matter to madara if naruto was minato's son or not

How do you figure that???
Remember, he was the one that warned Pein about Naruto. If Minato was strong enough to stop the nine tails, I don't think that Madara would underestimate someone with the potential with the potential to be even stronger than Minato. As strong as he is, he seems like a pretty cautious person. It wouldn't make any sense not to worry about something like that.

[Raizen]

Even if he does know that naruto is minato's son, which I don't think he does, he is too infatuated with sasuke to care.

M: What? The 9-tails is sealed in the son of the guy who defeated me 16 yrs ago? I am going to ...
S: Honey, I am getting lonely..
M: hahaha. Coming dear. Oh wait what was I thinking?
S: I am growing cold.
M: Fuck it! Coming BABY!! Daddy is going to bring it home hahaha :blink

[godofthesunn]

What significance does it make if mandara knows that hes is the 4ths son.. He still wants that bijuu..

[Raizen]

What significance does it make if mandara knows that hes is the 4ths son.. He still wants that bijuu..
The thread is NOT what difference does it make if he is minato's son, it is DOES he know??

[PitchBlack857]

Yea Madara know the deal with Naruto's lineage, He's one of the few people in Akatsuki that refers to by name. Plus Naruto being the 4th's son was the worst kept secret in manga for so long, First time I saw Minato I knew he was Naruto's pop. smh at people in the village not tellin that kid who his daddy is.

[Nin-Kaizen]

The third Hokage said that everyone knew that Naruto has the Nine Tails in it. But the Parents dont say that to her kids because it was not allowed to talk about it.
And so i think its with Minato everyone (who is old enough) know about that but its not allowed to talk about that because it would to dangerous for Naruto.

[seya]

Madara's quite a storyteller, I'd like to know what you think is true or a lie.


I can’t believe that the Uchiha were plotting a coup. It doesn’t make any sense if we consider how the clan was depicted (wealthy, respected, head of the police force).
In the animes (official versions,French and american) , it’s been stated that the clan was decreasing in number . So I think they were struggling to keep their status .Their meetings had to do with their position in the village. Itachi’s father told him he was the pipe connecting the clan and the village because as the future head of the clan, he had to demonstrate power and become respected , he was the token of their power. If the clan was decreasing in number , they were still to be feared.

[elmo11]

i think everything he's said is more or less the truth, of course take it with a pinch of salt of course, im more interested in seeing wat he has to gain by telling sasuke all of this. i think that the way madara has explained it, it makes a lot of sense readin it over. :)

[nat]

I believe what he said about the Uchiha history, how they betrayed him and so on. The part with the Uchihas being under-dogs to the Senju clan sounds believable also.

But about the EMS and his brother offering his eyes, I think that is where he twisted some of the facts. Same thing with Sasuke's father, he didn't strike me as the successful plotting type.

About Itachi, I want to believe it. Because storywise it would be make sense.
We didn't know much of Ita's story, we only saw hints here and there. So having it told by Madara in such an explicit way seems like Kishimoto telling us a bit of the truth.

[azure21]

More or less, it was probably true, the story about Itachi. IIRC, Itachi avoids confrontation with Konohas as much as possible. And if can't, he would only use a fraction of his capabilities. Or at least pulls out in the middle.

[seya]

i think everything he's said is more or less the truth, of course take it with a pinch of salt of course, im more interested in seeing wat he has to gain by telling sasuke all of this. i think that the way madara has explained it, it makes a lot of sense readin it over. :)

Don't you have any doubts about some parts?
I can't even believe the Itachi's part was all true . I can only believe in the disease , that he wanted sasuke's protection,as well as the protection of the village, that he really loved sasuke.

[Rahan]

I don't believe the Akatsuki part. Itachi joined before the massacre.
I don't believe the discrimination (kids were thinking the Uchihas were awesome. That's not how kids thinks about people segregated and ghettoized)
I dont' believe his brother gave up willingly his eyes.
I don't believe he has nothing to with the Kyuubi attack.

I believe he is an old bitter to have lost his clan to his enemy and who wants revenge. He intends to use Sasuke either to have a freebie to Naruto, to create a civil war or to separate Naruto from his village where he is too protected (if Sasuke is caught attacking Konoha, it will be impossible for Tsunade to redeem him and he'll be judged a criminal, which will piss off immensely Naruto)

[KnuckleheadedNinja]

i believe that madara was lieing about the kyuubi attack been a natural disaster.

[quick_al]

i believe that madara was lieing about the kyuubi attack been a natural disaster.

i agree but more or less i think that madara is telling the truth because it makes sense, it explains a lot but at the same time we known that madara has been spying on sasuke for a while so he could be making up a story that suits his needs to get sasuke on his side..

[Mammago]

I think it's all true. He may have plans for Sasuke, but he didn't tell Sasuke anything that would bring him over to his side. If he was going to lie he would have told Sasuke something to make Sasuke more sympathetic to himself. Not Itachi.

[Stop]

If he is lying he might be telling a bit of truth with most of it being lies to confuse sasuke
But I think hes telling the truth

[Baron Hugenstein]

I don't believe the Akatsuki part. Itachi joined before the massacre.
I don't believe the discrimination (kids were thinking the Uchihas were awesome. That's not how kids thinks about people segregated and ghettoized)

All the discrimination happened in secret, i.e the surveillance by anbu and the segregation.
What the public saw was different than what the clan members saw.
If the public knew that is a possiblity of a civil war/rebellion there would have be mass chaos and hysteria....especially by the uchiha who were the law enforcers at the time.


I dont' believe his brother gave up willingly his eyes.
I don't believe he has nothing to with the Kyuubi attack.

I dont really believe that his brother just gave his eyes up.
But at that time and even after konoha was formed, the uchiha pride was dominate in each clan member...as we have seen in the sasuke's flashbacks.
so maybe, seeing that one of the two strongest uchiha was dying and the chances of uchiha victory over senju was weakening....he gave up his eyes as a trial to see if madara regains his eyesight.

also, Madara had something to do with the Kyuubi attack.


I believe he is an old bitter to have lost his clan to his enemy and who wants revenge. He intends to use Sasuke either to have a freebie to Naruto, to create a civil war or to separate Naruto from his village where he is too protected (if Sasuke is caught attacking Konoha, it will be impossible for Tsunade to redeem him and he'll be judged a criminal, which will piss off immensely Naruto)
i agree with you, and IMO he is doing it in a way such that Sasuke will decide on his own to attack konoha....without any persuasion from Madara
as to leave no strings attached

[Rahan]

All the discrimination happened in secret, i.e the surveillance by anbu and the segregation.
What the public saw was different than what the clan members saw.
If the public knew that is a possiblity of a civil war/rebellion there would have be mass chaos and hysteria....especially by the uchiha who were the law enforcers at the time.

Madara clearly stated the Uchiha were ghettoized in a corner of the village and if the Uchiha had been ghettoized, it would not be a secret, because it's IMPOSSIBLE to ghettoize a whole clan and keep their reputation intact in the village. (village would wonder why they are ghettoized and rumors would fly)
Also, we might also question why the Uchihas would keep quiet about the segregation / deportation / ghettoization and do their police work like if nothing happened and why the lambda villagers would accept to be policed by people who got deported for some unknown reason.

[Stop]

Madara clearly stated the Uchiha were ghettoized in a corner of the village and if the Uchiha had been ghettoized, it would not be a secret, because it's IMPOSSIBLE to ghettoize a whole clan and keep their reputation intact in the village. (village would wonder why they are ghettoized and rumors would fly)
Also, we might also question why the Uchihas would keep quiet about the segregation / deportation / ghettoization and do their police work like if nothing happened and why the lambda villagers would accept to be policed by people who got deported for some unknown reason.


No I think they already were in one corner because they were a CLAN just like hyugas are in one area of the village.

nvm I was rereading nvm

[Rahan]

No I think they already were in one corner because they were a CLAN just like hyugas are in one area of the village.

Madara clearly stated they were FORCED to live in a corner of the village because of the suspicions of Danzou and the elders.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/399/16/

How can you do that in the secret with the victims keeping quiet, no one in the village suspecting anything and the victims keeping their reputation.
Answer : you can't. Either Madara lies or Kishi sucks. There is no other alternative here.

[seya]

I totally agree with Rahan , segregation isn't something you do in secret, it's either imposed by law or exist de facto because of social or cultural cleavages.

is the word segregation really used in the manga or is it a mistranslation?
[hr]


I dont really believe that his brother just gave his eyes up.
But at that time and even after konoha was formed, the uchiha pride was dominate in each clan member...as we have seen in the sasuke's flashbacks.
so maybe, seeing that one of the two strongest uchiha was dying and the chances of uchiha victory over senju was weakening....he gave up his eyes as a trial to see if madara regains his eyesight.also, Madara had something to do with the Kyuubi attack.


Madara admitted that the rest of the clan accused him of stealing his brother's eyes. They felt their leader was a butcher , a madman, and they end up rejected him when chance came , joining senju , creating a new village.
we can also assume that he had been a self imposed leader, no one could have opposed him in the clan.( just reread Itachi account of Madara's past)
[hr]
what if madara is after the 2 advisers and danzo because they know how he was defeated by the 1st. Think about it they are the only one left who knew the 1st.

[mannenntihnmo]

Madara clearly stated they were FORCED to live in a corner of the village because of the suspicions of Danzou and the elders.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/399/16/

How can you do that in the secret with the victims keeping quiet, no one in the village suspecting anything and the victims keeping their reputation.
Answer : you can't. Either Madara lies or Kishi sucks. There is no other alternative here.
i think there is another alternative: madara isn't really lying, but modifying the truth, like politicians like to do it. perhaps they got this piece of land as a present, which even would have heightened their standard of living if their earlier home was smaller and poorer, but madara only saw the aspect, that the clan now lives in one corner.
it's similar for this thing with his brother: maybe it was something like half-willingly, like when a soccer-coach gives up his job, cause he knows he will probably be fired anyway
but what i don't understand, is that madara prefers to take revenge on the clan than to attack konoha (i mean, he has to have a grudge against konoha, not against his clan). yeah, okay, perhaps he's too weak to attack konoha all alone, but he knows about the plans of the uchihas, so he could join them (because eventually, they plan, what he always wanted to do).

[seya]

maybe he can't care less of the village, he only wanted revenge on his clan. His talk is full of resentment for the uchihas,calling them dogs, using words like betrayal, eye for eye. he hates them.
the village is now a pb because they are disturbing his plans.

[lagif]

I personally don't believe someone (even Danzou) would give an order to slaughter everyone in clan, including children and women. And I don't see why would Madara try to revenge on his clan in such a sucking way, because they wasn't the same clan he left. It was completely another generation. And I still hate Itachi wor what he's done.
I also don't believe it wasn't Madara who was responsible for Nine-tailed appearance 15 years ago.
Then again we should wait and see.

[Baron Hugenstein]

Madara clearly stated the Uchiha were ghettoized in a corner of the village and if the Uchiha had been ghettoized, it would not be a secret, because it's IMPOSSIBLE to ghettoize a whole clan and keep their reputation intact in the village. (village would wonder why they are ghettoized and rumors would fly)
Also, we might also question why the Uchihas would keep quiet about the segregation / deportation / ghettoization and do their police work like if nothing happened and why the lambda villagers would accept to be policed by people who got deported for some unknown reason.

Not really, at that time, Konoha's security was the most important to the elders
so it makes sense if they ghettoized the uchiha and gave a false reason for that.......as we have seen in sasuke's flashbacks, the kids, who are practically walking recorders of what their parents say and think, said that the uchiha were noble and strong...not traitors or rebels.

And since they are the police, they hold a position of power and control over the public, so they cant really go out and strike especially when there might a possibility of an attack from other villages if the order in konoha drops.
so they have limited options in which to react to their segregation.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------


Madara admitted that the rest of the clan accused him of stealing his brother's eyes. They felt their leader was a butcher , a madman, and they end up rejected him when chance came , joining senju , creating a new village.
we can also assume that he had been a self imposed leader, no one could have opposed him in the clan.( just reread Itachi account of Madara's past)
.

Yes, they did say that...and we can assume he was a self imposed leader, on the account that he was the only one who had ems.

but before Konoha was formed, when the Uchiha were hired into action, they went against Senju and other strong clans...so a powerful, sly and smart leader was needed for them to stay alive and survive.
if Madara didnt have the EMS, he wouldn't have able to fight Hashirama on near equal levels, and Konoha would have been somewhat different.

Plus, after Konoha was formed, the Uchiha members said what they said about Madara because they felt that the time of war and survival was over.. but when the Second Hokage gave them the position of police, some Uchiha understood what Madara was talking about. (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/399/13/)
So from Madara's point of view, they made an error in judgment.

[khar2]

does madara know, who cares, i doesnt make any differences since minato is dead, but i just doesnt understand bitterness people kept for naruto during years, especially if they knew that he is 4th's son, son of a hero who saved them from kyubi and sacrified himself and his son in the process, and where the heck is naruto's mother, maybe she is reason they didnt like naruto

[wildG]

i think that madara knows where his pet is or how to find it ^^ and i am sure that the pet will do everything to get madara extract him of naruto and support him in a world war^^ madara has already revenged the uchihas now i find him a lil bit bored i think that a small word wide ninja world would wake him up bit

and i don't think that he really even cares if naruto is yondaime's son as he doesn't care about the 3rd 2nd, 4th and 5th hokage he only cared about shodai while shodai was the one he admired yet the one who has beaten him

[kaizokumarcee]

What is the relevance in Madara knowing whether Naruto is Minato's son???

[Nin-Kaizen]

thats a weakpoint Madara can tell things about his father and so gets naruto pherhaps in anger

[Marq]

does madara know, who cares, i doesnt make any differences since minato is dead, but i just doesnt understand bitterness people kept for naruto during years, especially if they knew that he is 4th's son, son of a hero who saved them from kyubi and sacrified himself and his son in the process, and where the heck is naruto's mother, maybe she is reason they didnt like naruto

really? the bitterness? People are fragile. Last time I checked Gaara's dad was hokage, and they still treat Gaara like shit. I"m pretty sure if everyone knew naruto's father was the hokage, they would still treat him like shit because of the fear itself. And peronally there is no valuable info even if Madara knows that Naruto is Minato's son really. He's going after the Bijuu, not naruto himself.

[kaizokumarcee]

thats a weakpoint Madara can tell things about his father and so gets naruto pherhaps in anger

Just because he told Sasuke about some past relevant to him, that does not mean that's all he can do. Tell enemies stories until they are on their knees. :p . Just kidding.

Well, maybe Madara knows about Minato and Naruto since he has been keeping in touch with Konoha every now and then. Maybe. But if he knows, then what? I'm guessing most people in Konoha knows that fact.

[THETRUTH.com]

really? the bitterness? People are fragile. Last time I checked Gaara's dad was hokage, and they still treat Gaara like shit. I"m pretty sure if everyone knew naruto's father was the hokage, they would still treat him like shit because of the fear itself. And peronally there is no valuable info even if Madara knows that Naruto is Minato's son really. He's going after the Bijuu, not naruto himself.


Gaara's father being Kazekage is a bad logic point since he ordered the murder of his own son to be done by his uncle. "The fish rots from the head" as the saying goes.

I dont think Madara knows. How would he I dont think many people know, so he would have to find out from one of them. It seems plausible that the Hokage's family would be under regular Anbu protection. The Hokage's circle doesnt seem to be very big. But the circle would most likely be filled with high-level shinobi. So, many of them could have been killed during the Kyuubi attack a situation that calls for such high-level shinobi. We are taking about shinobis, a secretive bunch for sure, I dont think that the Hokage's personal life is a public matter. That too would probably depend on Minato himself and how secretive he felt he needed to be to protect those close to him.

I do think it matters it like it not mattering that you are Micheal Jordan's son and you play basketball. :)

[quick_al]

I personally don't believe someone (even Danzou) would give an order to slaughter everyone in clan, including children and women. And I don't see why would Madara try to revenge on his clan in such a sucking way, because they wasn't the same clan he left. It was completely another generation. And I still hate Itachi wor what he's done.
I also don't believe it wasn't Madara who was responsible for Nine-tailed appearance 15 years ago.
Then again we should wait and see.

i think it was because of what j-man said when he was talking to the frog that the fourth knew that something was up, and that the nine-tailes attack was the result of summoning by madra

[Jammin]

I believe the core of Madara's story is true. A lot of the parts where he talks about himself sound like either half-truths or outright lies though. The parts seem the most false to me are....

1)How he got his brothers eyes. His brother was dead in his flashback and last time i checked losing your eyes isn't fatal. So I think there is definitely more to that story than he said.

2)The Kyuubi attack being an act of nature. He had every reason to lie about sending the kyuubi to attack the village and i think thats just what he did. The Kyuubi's attack on konoha which resulted in the death of the 4th as well as driving a wedge between the Uchiha clan and the village. Which if Madara is to be believed ultimately led to their destruction, giving him his revenge. All that is just way to convenient for him and I don't believe for a second that it was all just some lucky coincidence.

[kazuma_uzumaki]

Probably half and half

some things seemed true some didnt
like some said before, I doubt madara's bro gave up his eyes, I don't entirely believe konoha sent itachi to kill everyone, then beg not to kill his brother, etc.

[segua]

It seems like Madara is manipulating Sasuke quite well. For one, Madara's skills at hiding his hatred for Senju is poor. Madara is just trying to incite Sasuke to attack Konoha and then what?

[kkck]

I think that in general the story was true, but was told from resented madara's point of view so certain things were could be interpreted diferently if someone like danzo or sarutobi told the story. For example if sarutobi had told the story he would have probably said that uchiha were welcomed into konoha, but they were powerhumgry and werent satisfied with their position within the village, which lead the village leaders to destrust uchiha.
I think the only lie within the story is about kyubii's second attack. If madara admited that he was the one who summuned kyubii 16 years ago, then the clans murder was madara's fault because he was the one who caused the village to blame kyubii on uchiha. On the other hand if madara wasnt the one who summoned kyubii the clan died because konoha made a mistake, so it's konoha's fault that uchiiha died pointlessly.
I know madara helped itachi in order to get his revenge so I think sasuke thinks he can use madara and then kill him.

[CTG05]

I think Madara's story was pretty much true, the only part I don't buy is that the kyubii attacked the village on its own. Jiraiya said he believed it was him, and Itatchi than confirmed it with his story. Madara is supposed to be the final villain, if the rest of his story is true than him not being behind the kyubii attack just makes him seem like some misunderstood hero, which i highly doubt is the case.

[lazyboyrod]

I think he really did summon the Kyuubi, I dont see how that was an accident

[Forever_Melody]

Although I believe the core of Madara's story to be true, some stuff puzzle me a bit. The parts that don't agree with Itachi's side of the story too I guess I'm questioning
- The way Madara got his eyes obviously is a bit iffy for me.
- The Kyuubi attack on Konoha 16 years ago(which eeventually led to the Uchiha massacre)
- The circumstances of the massacre themselves. I'd like to know Madara's role in that. How did Itachi "find" him exactly?

Those are the main ones out of my head I guess.

[Lynxie]

The best lies are when parts of it are true.
It also could be that Madara tells the truth from what he knows, but how does he know so much, when he wasn't supposed to be in Konoha?
A spy, or he was in Konoha, but hiding as someone else?

Anyway I believe he or his spy created the fear. Telling other Uchiha lies to doubt Konoha. But I also think he somehow created fear within Konoha. Maybe tell someone like Danzou that the Uchiha were planning something.
If he was feeding both sides lies, then he would created fear on both sides, which actually results that his lies became truth...

I don't think that Madara summoned Kyuubi, I think Yondaime did that, or got help from someone to do that. Sealing Kyuubi in his new born son, of course it is shounen, but it is just to much "luck".
Kyuubi comes, Naruto gets born on the same moment, Yondaime figures out quickly he has to seal it in his son.
No I don't believe that, Yondaime did that probably with help, maybe with help from an Uchiha.

Jiraiya said Yondaime knew something. I think Yondaime knew Madara was alive, maybe someone told him, or he figured it out himself. He probably also had an idea what Madara wanted to do.
We know Madara wants Kyuubi, so I guess Yondaime knew that, and created a plan to make it harder for Madara.
I don't think many people knew this, the chance Madara hears of it, would probably ruin Yondaime's plan.

Also I believe the massacre is a little different. I think Madara is the person who created that idea.

Madara seems the kind of person that likes to manipulate people around him, while himself being in the shadow, acting innocent. This also fits Tobi's character.

So I do think Madara tells the truth, about most things, only he let the most important things out of it.

Anyway maybe I am totally wrong. I wouldn't mind that, I like it when Kishi surprises me.

[seya]

Why would yondaime summon kuybi knowing that he couldn't control it? At best , he could have stopped it for good with the help of the death demon, but he chose to seal it in naruto for some reason. That reason might be unreasonable as the frog implied.In fact he left a door open for Madara instead of clearing the danger.
Why seal kyubi instead of getting rid of it for good?

Besides it was too risky for the village and remember yondaime wasn't ready when kuibi attacked the village. So your theory doesn't work.

[Lynxie]

Why would yondaime summon kuybi knowing that he couldn't control it?

He didn't want to control it, he wanted to seal it within his son.


At best , he could have stopped it for good with the help of the death demon.

Maybe, but he didn't, why?


but he chose to seal it in naruto for some reason.

And what is that reason?

If it was just to get rid of Kyuubi, what I thought for a long time, then I was ok with the Madara summoning, that seems to me the most logic thing.

The problem I have with this is it is more then just sealing Kyuubi. Minato thought a way how Naruto could use Kyuubi's power, with this "key" thing.

Minato's idea goes much futher then just seal the Kyuubi. Which gives him a reason to summon it.


That reason might be unreasonable as the frog implied.

Yeah, true, so why did Minato do that?!
Can you just accept Minato did that without a good reason?

Only more reason for me to believe he needed Kyuubi's power.

He needed Kyuubi's power for something more dangerous, that only a power like Kyuubi was able to go against. Else his reason to seal it in Naruto is unreasonable.

Else Jiraiya's speech about that Minato did it with a reason, doesn't make much sense.

Because it is also Jiraiya's speech that make me think about this theory. Minato wanted to use Kyuubi power because he knew something.

For Jiraiya that is the only logical explanation why he would have sealed it within Naruto.
I just take that idea 1 step further and say he somehow summoned it. (with help, or whatever) For that same reason.


In fact he left a door open for Madara instead of clearing the danger.


So you believe summoning Kyuubi and control it is harder then getting your hands on a Jinchuuriki.

That could be true, I have no idea.
But when you have the Kyuubi sealed within Naruto, it is easier for a village to watch over it, then waiting till the day that Madara, or someone else will summon it.


Also it was Minato's wish that Naruto learned to use this power within Kyuubi, why else create a "key"?
So I say Minato's plan goes to deep to be created on the moment Kyuubi attacked.



Why seal kyubi instead of getting rid of it for good?

Yes that is the question I try to anwser.
Getting rid of it for good make much more sense, still Minato wanted to use it power.
So I only see 2 options:
1. Minato knew he couldn't get rid of it, so sealed it.
2. Minato didn't want to get rid of it, and sealed it.

Option 1 seems the most logical to me, if Kyuubi was summoned by Madara or someone else. Still he thought a way for Naruto to use it's power which I find strange in the situation he was in.

Village attack, wife pregnant. Need to get rid of Kyuubi, then decide lets seal it, and then think why not give Naruto a way to use it. On the same time figure out how to seal something like Kyuubi, and find a way to let Naruto use it's power...

Damn if this is true then Minato really is something.
Ah it is shounen, so I know it is very possible.


Besides it was too risky for the village and remember yondaime wasn't ready when kuibi attacked the village. So your theory doesn't work.

Yes the risk of the village is probably the biggest hole in my theory.
This gives me the idea that Minato had help, but that help probably wasn't strong enough.

Which also brings me to your second point, that Yondaime wasn't ready.

He needed the baby, but you can not force it out, also it must be a new born to work, so he had not the luxery to first get baby and then summon, probably.
And I don't believe Minato summoned it actually himself, I think someone else did it for him.
But it could, He summoned kyuubi, go get baby, the moment he wasn't there, then comeback with baby.
He probably left one of his special kunai's at the place, so he could go back in a flash.


Anyway...
I could be wrong (and I am probably wrong :)), and I do hope Kishi write something that is good and I didn't expect, I love to be surprised.
I probably think much to far in this, this is shounen after all.

[gfire2]

am i the only one that believes everything??

i thinking that madara told the whole truth and nothing but the truth. madara prolli has his suspicions to who summoned the kyuubi but doesnt have proof or ani1 to point the finger to so he assumed it was natural disaster even though he prolli has his doubts

[seya]

So you believe summoning Kyuubi and control it is harder then getting your hands on a Jinchuuriki.

That could be true, I have no idea.
But when you have the Kyuubi sealed within Naruto, it is easier for a village to watch over it, then waiting till the day that Madara, or someone else will summon it.

Getting rid of it for good make much more sense, still Minato wanted to use it power.
So I only see 2 options:
1. Minato knew he couldn't get rid of it, so sealed it.
2. Minato didn't want to get rid of it, and sealed it.
.

Yes I think that controling kyubi is almost impossible and i think that sharigan was meant for this.However Madara is said to be the only one able to control it.
As for summoning it , i suppose it requires a lot of power and knownledge. But no information was given on that.
A Jinchuuriki is supposed to help controlling the beast, however it was said that even this method wasn't a success, remember the sand village wanted to kill gaara because of their lack of control over him. The old woman said that it was an old practice and a failure.From what we know so far ,only gaara is about naruto's age.Maybe the practice was abandonned for sometime.
I assume that gaara became a junchuuriken after naruto, because they considered that konoha was trying to use one of the beast as a weapon.( I might be wrong it depends on gaara's age.)

I don't think that konoha expected anyone to come after kuybi, not until Itachi and kisame came to the village.

For the second point, I agree with your 2 options.let's wait and see.

[Black Thought]

Hmm. I think Madara is telling the truth, but maybe twisted a few things to get Sasuke onto his side, but for the most part his story is true. Only thing I believe there's lying going on is his brother gave him his eyes. There's something fishy about it and why is Madara pushing Itachi's eyes onto Sasuke so much? And why didn't the Younger Brother of Madara go blind? Maybe Sasuke won't either? There must be a trick... Hmm. Kishimoto is quite formidable.

[seya]

This new chap raises my hope high again that the uchihas are innocent , that Madara only lied to get sasuke on his side.

zestu is saying that no one would have told (sasuke) the truth about itachi , which means that Madara didn’t either. Madara confirmed that Itachi took the truth to his grave. itachi only cared about sasuke’s safety that Madara wouldn’t get his hands on him , he didn’t care about the truth . So whatever madara said was a lie to manipulate sasuke into an alliance .Thus the discourse about both groups being weak and have the same goals ect....

why didn’t he attack konoha while Itachi was alive?
Maybe he tricked Itachi into joining aka , he threatened him to wipe out the village and proved his power by killing the clan . So Itachi chose to join to protect the village and sasuke.The deal he offered itachi was that AKA wouldn't attack the village nor sasuke in exhange itachi would help aka. Sasuke is in this position right now.
madara didn't trust Itachi , he won't trust sasuke either.Hasn't he threatened him already? He 's the type of person who trusts noone but himself.
Madara ‘s aim from the start is revenge on the clan and Konoha.

[Starzen]

madara told the truth and itachi just threatend madara and akatsuki.

[Forever_Melody]

Madara ‘s aim from the start is revenge on the clan and Konoha.

Well I'm not 100% sure of that. Despite an imminent attack on Konoha now, Tobi still claims their first goal is the capture of the remaining 2 Bijyuus. If he was capturing Bjyuus in order to attack Konoha, then it would pointless seeing as an attack is already going to take place and he(Madara) seems confident that ti could work.

[lazyboyrod]

Judging by the recent chapter (404) Madara reported to Zetsu that he finaly got Sasuke, the way he said that was as if he needed Sasuke, therefore I believe he would say anything it took to get Sasuke on his side, so basically Im not taking anything he said so far for fact until the story developes a little bit more.

[KnuckleheadedNinja]

Judging by the recent chapter (404) Madara reported to Zetsu that he finaly got Sasuke, the way he said that was as if he needed Sasuke, therefore I believe he would say anything it took to get Sasuke on his side, so basically Im not taking anything he said so far for fact until the story developes a little bit more.

i wonder why sasuke is so important to hhis plan

[seya]

It has to do with sharigan and the tailed beasts ,kuybi to be accurate. I wonder if he wants kuybi back or if he wants to summon something else by gathering the chakra of the nine beasts.
Anyway, sasuke is just a replacement to Itachi.

[lazyboyrod]

It has to do with sharigan and the tailed beasts ,kuybi to be accurate. I wonder if he wants kuybi back or if he wants to summon something else by gathering the chakra of the nine beasts.
Anyway, sasuke is just a replacement to Itachi.

I think it's more than that, I think Madara needs Sasuke's eyes.

[KnuckleheadedNinja]

I think it's more than that, I think Madara needs Sasuke's eyes.

i doubt that because if he need sasuke eyes he could have just poke it out when sasuke was knock out after fighting itachi.

[seya]

I think it's more than that, I think Madara needs Sasuke's eyes.


You may be right,it has to do with sasuke's eyes. It explains why Itachi focused his story on the eye thing (madara stealing his brother's eyes, he and sasuke being a spare to each other,etc).It would explain why madara left sasuke alive , his eyes were indeed itachi's spare eyes. But Itachi was sick ,so madara had to find a way of getting sasuke on his side which Itachi tried his best to prevent.

If my theory is right, he will push sasuke to develop his eyes ( EMS?)by taking itachi's eyes. Yet he isn't pushing sasuke, he might be manipulating him until he asks for them.

Everything Itachi said during his fight with sasuke is relevant, he portrayed madara has a power driven,heartless man who killed his brother to get stronger.He is also weaker today , he implied he could do anything to get that power back, and it has to do with the eyes.

The hole in my theory : i don't know what itachi wants sasuke to do: to take or not to take his eyes?

[Chris_Swe]

Even though it was stated some time ago that Tobi is Madara it does not exclude that he might also be "other" people. I believe that Madara is also Danzou, and my arguments are:

1) They look very similar; same hair, eyebrows, eye-shape, lines along the eyes (madara eye seen in chap 396 and 7).

2) Danzou has his right eye covered and left out. Madara has his left covered and the right out.

3) So far they have tried very hard not to show to much of madara's face. There is no reason for that unless we would recognize it.

i.e. Madara is someone we know. Could be Tobi, but not very likely. I think the person most likely to be Madara/Obito is Danzou.

[Sa-sori]

Kisame saw his whole face and recognized him. All of it and Kisame's never met Danzou.

[Chris_Swe]

And how do we know that?
It has not been stated in the manga that they have not met.

Kisame also said though that he is the Mizukage, which is the strangest thing. Cause how can danzou be both kage in a different village and also high advisor in the other.

I don't really know, but since madara was very good at space/time ninjutsu (stated by kakashi) he can probably move very rapidly (could fly to as we saw).

Another thing is that earlier it was stated in the manga that the anbu root (konoha) which were trained under Danzou used the same system as they used in the mizu village.

[Jehuty]

And how do we know that?
It has not been stated in the manga that they have not met.

Kisame also said though that he is the Mizukage, which is the strangest thing. Cause how can danzou be both kage in a different village and also high advisor in the other.

I don't really know, but since madara was very good at space/time ninjutsu (stated by kakashi) he can probably move very rapidly (could fly to as we saw).

Another thing is that earlier it was stated in the manga that the anbu root (konoha) which were trained under Danzou used the same system as they used in the mizu village.
There's gotta be a reason Madara hasn't shown his face yet... every time we "see" it, it's hidden. With Sasuke, Itachi's Amaterasu blasted him away, and it was offscreen for Kisame. There's gotta be something hidden there - Danzou, Obito, something to make this guy more interesting than just being a geezer.

[kyubisharingan]

i believe that madara was lieing about the kyuubi attack been a natural disaster.

agreed. Even Jiraiya had his suspicions about that. Everything else seems true

[lazyboyrod]

There is alot of mystery shrowded around Madara, he is one weird bastard, but we will find out soon.

[lazyboyrod]

What do you guys think Madara's true intentions are?
He says he wants revenge on Konoha, but is that the whole truth?
Here (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/404/17/) Madara shows great intrest with Sasuke and the departing of Itachi. Why does he really need Sasuke (who is considerably weaker than him) to fulfill his goals? My opinion is that he needs Sasuke's special eyes or something to that effect.
What do you think?

[JutsuMasterr]

tobi said in chapter 404 the most in important thing whas to make sasuke mine maybe , thats why itachi gave sasuke protection maybe tobi is about to steal sasuke`s sharingan , now his sharingan is very experienced thanks to itachi

[lazyboyrod]

I dont necessarily think his Sharingan is experienced, Itachi just implanted Amaterasu in it when Sasuke sees Madara's Sharingan. But Madara does need Sasuke for some reason.

[gfire2]

well itachi did say madara was a shell of his former self so maybe he doesnt have the ms to control the kyuubi so he needed sasuke for that.

but maybe they mite pull off another star wars thing "sasuke i am ur father"

[wildG]

i wonder why sasuke is so important to hhis plan

he probably lose one of he eyes and he can no longer control the kyuubi its crystal clear for me that he wantshim to control the kyuubi plus that madara is a fanatic uchiha and would like to revive it too as long as they listen to him tho^^

[lazyboyrod]

i doubt that because if he need sasuke eyes he could have just poke it out when sasuke was knock out after fighting itachi.

Well maybe he needs them to be EMS.

[JutsuMasterr]

100% Madara

[Jammin]

Two possible explanations come to mind for me.

1) Madara is after Sasuke's eyes. I can think of two possible reasons for this.
There is some problem with Madara's EMS so he needs a replacement.

Maybe he wants an even more powerful sharingan. If stealing they eyes of another MS user gives you the EMS, maybe stealing the eyes of another EMS user gives you something even more special.:amuse


2) He wants Sasuke's body;), much like Orochimaru. The most likely reason for this would be their is something wrong with his body. The first hokage killed him once, after all. That had to leave a mark.:D

Both these theories have the same problem. Why is he waiting:s, he could just take what he wants from Sasuke now. The only thing i can come up with to answer this is maybe he needs, or wants, all Bijuu's power for the process.

It could be he needs their power to awaken an even more powerful sharingan or maybe he just wants to combine Madara's mind, Sasuke's body, and all 9 Bijuu's and make himself a god. With the information available i can only guess.:p

[quick_al]

well based on the last chapter i do not think madara told the whole truth, he lied, he is lieing about who he really is, and now this chapter has put a new little on this whole thing about his true reasons

[Lelo]

I believe Madara is bending the truth but in a way to make Sasuke want to attack Konoha. He is trying to sucker Sasuke with the truth, telling how Itachi was such a good boy, how it was all Konohas fault the Uchihas were murdered, not putting any blame on anyone else, and Sasuke is so confused right now he doesnt know what to think

[seya]

It could be he needs their power to awaken an even more powerful sharingan or maybe he just wants to combine Madara's mind, Sasuke's body, and all 9 Bijuu's and make himself a god. With the information available i can only guess.:p

I agree. Immortality is a running theme in the manga , many aka members (Oro included) have reached a form of immortality through different ways.Madara said that his strong chakra had kept him alive so I guess he has perfected his method and it requires the bijuus' chakras.
To think of it, only Itachi ,kisame ,maybe Konan seem human.
Anyway I think that he needs sasuke for that purpose.I'm also convinced that he has no intention of sharing the bijuus.

Pain stated aka's goals twice:they want a warfare. He hasn't been presented as a liar. So I take it for granted.
But i think the 2 men have opposite views:
-pain wants war to impose peace.
-madara needs a neverending warfare

I guess that he has convinced Pain that they will create a new weapon that will destroy the world as they know it .They might destroy the ninvillages, redefine the countries, cause anarchy and chaos.And then they might impose their laws.
In short recreate Madara's world before the alliance with the senju, he wants to relive his past all over again , he 's simply erasing his one mistake :the alliance with the senju.

[bigtymer32]

this is a tuff one but i'm go towards he wants all the bijuu's power so he can be god like and i think he wants to have sasuke as his right hand man till he decides he wants his body and takes his eyes.

[jiro]

Something really bothering me...

Why did he massacre all uchiha? because they were planning a coup?

it doesn't really make sense. even if the konoha ordered him to.
Kill all? even the innocent? the elders? the children?
Not all of them deserve to die.. Right!?

[lazyboyrod]

@ jiro:
I guess he felt that they all would some day feel the same resentment and try to take over the leaf, so long as they kept having their secret meetings, however Sasuke didnt know yet, thats why Itachi tried to keep it that way by brainwashing him and trying to keep him away from Madara.

[Jammin]

Something really bothering me...

Why did he massacre all uchiha? because they were planning a coup?

it doesn't really make sense. even if the konoha ordered him to.
Kill all? even the innocent? the elders? the children?
Not all of them deserve to die.. Right!?A good question.

It would make sense that they would want to eliminate the Uchiha clan completely. After all, that fierce pride they all seem to have had would make reprisals from the survivors a certainty. Just like what happened with Sasuke.

Though it wouldn't surprise me if there was some deeper reasoning behind the leaders of Konoha deciding to completely annihilate the Uchiha clan. Perhaps something to do with the final secret of the sharingan that Itachi mentioned, or maybe something to do with the nature and origin of the sharingan itself.

[Baron Hugenstein]

Something really bothering me...

Why did he massacre all uchiha? because they were planning a coup?

it doesn't really make sense. even if the konoha ordered him to.
Kill all? even the innocent? the elders? the children?
Not all of them deserve to die.. Right!?

If Madara was right about Itachi wanting peace(which i doubt he lied about that , because he has to give a general background about Itachi's real personality), then it would make sense that Itachi chose the greater good over the "name and honor" of his clan. He had to kill them all because if he did not, they would relocate to another village/place, revive their strength and attack Konoha again which would lead to another war.

[aznhotbod]

Madara said whatever to manipulate Sasuke into joining him. Let's see, Madara, Zetsu, Kisame, Pain, Konan. That's 5 left now that Akatsuki was taken out, mainly by Konoha. He desperately needed the power boost. And Sasuke was hailed to have better eyes than Itachi, as evidenced later by his Atomic MS. He's filled the truth with manipulative suggestions to get Sasuke and his posse to attack Konoha.

[KnuckleheadedNinja]

Something really bothering me...

Why did he massacre all uchiha? because they were planning a coup?

it doesn't really make sense. even if the konoha ordered him to.
Kill all? even the innocent? the elders? the children?
Not all of them deserve to die.. Right!?

I think it more like this: if you going to eliminate a majority of them you might as well eliminate all of them. If you leave some alive they will only hold a grudge toward Konoha and in the future they themself might plan a coup and try to destory konoha.

[aznhotbod]

What you don't kill will eventually come back to bite you in the ass, or something like that in an old Chinese adage.

[seya]

If some of the Uchiha were planning a coup, they would have been arrested with the help of other members of the clan,for sure. A majority would have stood by konoha,just like itachi supposidely did.

No, you don't order a genocide because a few people are rebelling! a genocide is what happened ,they wipe out the sharigan gene.
The question is who favors the crime? Konoha or Madara?
[hr]

What you don't kill will eventually come back to bite you in the ass, or something like that in an old Chinese adage.

I don't think konoha kill people out of fear. It 's not a village of cowards.

[KnuckleheadedNinja]

If some of the Uchiha were planning a coup, they would have been arrested with the help of other members of the clan,for sure. A majority would have stood by konoha,just like itachi supposidely did.

No, you don't order a genocide because a few people are rebelling! a genocide is what happened ,they wipe out the sharigan gene.
The question is who favors the crime? Konoha or Madara?


Like you said you don't order a genocide because a few people are rebelling which means a majority of the Uchihas were rebelling. If a majority stood by konoha like itachi then the genocide won't have been ordered and itachi most like would have done it.

[seya]

The majority ? what makes you think they were a majority?

I assume that most of the uchiha were children and women. Itachi said that they were declining in number.
Besides being an uchiha doesn't mean that you develop a sharigan.
in short, they weren't that powerful to stage a coup.

Then again, nothing justifies a genocide ,certainly not the fear of revenge from the survivors.

[jiro]

ditto:
nothing justifies a genocide ,certainly not the fear of revenge from the survivors.

i believed some truths about madara's story, and i think theres another reason for the genocide. something about the uchiha thingie and the future of konoha.

must be something more about the sharingan thing

[NAti]

I am prety sure its danzou, Itachi theoricaly did everything to protect sasuke from danzou, and in the end when tobi show up itachi final shot hit tobi.

if tobi show is real face to sasuke why did kubo hide it from us when he show is face to Kisame. After a big secret revealed its useless to hide did anymore.

we know for sure that is not the one who he tells us he is.

[ace138]

If it was Danzou how could he get out of the village undetected. He has Anbu constently watching him. Itachi found Madara outside of the village not in it. Itachi even threatened Danzou not to touch Saskue. Itachi has dealt with both, he would know. He even stated that Tobi was Madara. So they can't be the same people. Danzou may be a warhawk but i don't think he would ever betray his village.

[Lelo]

Something really bothering me...

Why did he massacre all uchiha? because they were planning a coup?

it doesn't really make sense. even if the konoha ordered him to.
Kill all? even the innocent? the elders? the children?
Not all of them deserve to die.. Right!?

what I dont unerstand is if Madara wanted to take over Konoha, and so did all the Uchihas, counldnt Madara have gone to the Uchihas and tell them about Konohas plans and help the Uchihas in their coup

[CTG05]

what I dont unerstand is if Madara wanted to take over Konoha, and so did all the Uchihas, counldnt Madara have gone to the Uchihas and tell them about Konohas plans and help the Uchihas in their coup Sure he could've done that, but Madara also had a grudge against the Uchiha for abandoning him after the treaty was made. Plus I think his plan is more along the line of destroy konoha rather than take it over.

[walkie]

what I dont unerstand is if Madara wanted to take over Konoha, and so did all the Uchihas, counldnt Madara have gone to the Uchihas and tell them about Konohas plans and help the Uchihas in their coup

also didnt madara said he helped itachi during wiping out the clan..that doesnt sounds like a man who is gonna warn them about konohas plan

[Lelo]

Sure he could've done that, but Madara also had a grudge against the Uchiha for abandoning him after the treaty was made. Plus I think his plan is more along the line of destroy konoha rather than take it over.

but if he let the Uchihas carry out their plan to coup but the Uchihas failed and where killed in action, wouldn't that be a great opening for Madsra to come finish off Konoha. Even if the Uchihas suceeded, they still would have lost a lot of shinobis and been really weak, that would also be a good opening for Madara to finish them off. It just would of been less work for Madara.

[lazyboyrod]

I think Madara would have said whatever it takes to get Sasuke on his team, so everyting he said is a possible lie.

[KnuckleheadedNinja]

[QUOTE=seya;911953]The majority ? what makes you think they were a majority?
Because i'm sure itachi wouldn't have kill all his clan if only a few of them were trying to destory konoha.


I assume that most of the uchiha were children and women. Itachi said that they were declining in number.
What make you think that most of the uchiha were children and women? Base on itachi saying that they were declining in number we can assume that they were declining because there was only a few women or children because they weren't reproducing enough.


Besides being an uchiha doesn't mean that you develop a sharigan.
in short, they weren't that powerful to stage a coup.
who said you need the sharingan to be powerful. Just because you don't have the sharingan doesn't mean you can't be powerful.


Then again, nothing justifies a genocide ,certainly not the fear of revenge from the survivors.
It is not an unjustifiy genocide when you destory the people that want to destory you. It Destory or be Destory.

[Lelo]

I think Madara would have said whatever it takes to get Sasuke on his team, so everyting he said is a possible lie.

but why did Kishi have Madara tell that story for a few chapters if its not true. It would be a watse, so most of it has to be true but which parts are, I have no clue

[Muuugen]

The only reason madara wants sasuke and not itachi (even though sasuke has more potential), is that he WANT itachi but can't have him since he is on the good side...so it was probably a part of their deal or something (for madara to help itachi massacre uchiha clan and so on)....and since sasuke is a "white clear paper" as itachi said sasuke can be coloured, in this case it was black or "madara colour"..only reason that seems logical.

[Jammin]

but why did Kishi have Madara tell that story for a few chapters if its not true. It would be a watse, so most of it has to be true but which parts are, I have no clueWell he showed Sasuke vs Itachi play out twice in genjutsu before showing the actual fight. He also gave at least a chapters worth of explaining Danzou's true goal was to join Orochimaru and conquer Konoha, we all know how that turned out. So it wouldn't really be anything new or even unusual.

[Lelo]

^ true, I never know what to expect. Thats what I like about this Manga

[seya]

[QUOTE]
Because i'm sure itachi wouldn't have kill all his clan if only a few of them were trying to destory konoha.


What make you think that most of the uchiha were children and women? Base on itachi saying that they were declining in number we can assume that they were declining because there was only a few women or children because they weren't reproducing enough.


who said you need the sharingan to be powerful. Just because you don't have the sharingan doesn't mean you can't be powerful.


It is not an unjustifiy genocide when you destory the people that want to destory you. It Destory or be Destory.

I don't think that Itachi helped wiping out the clan for the reasons given by madara.


I really think that women and children outnumbered men, it's a natural ratio .True, it's not the real world but a fictional ninja village where men are more likely to meet an early death than women and children .Death of young men can result in a decline in births.

True but sharigan was their asset.

I'm sorry I can't accept your last argument.

[lazyboyrod]

I think Madara lied about everything

[lazyboyrod]

The only reason madara wants sasuke and not itachi (even though sasuke has more potential), is that he WANT itachi but can't have him since he is on the good side...so it was probably a part of their deal or something (for madara to help itachi massacre uchiha clan and so on)....and since sasuke is a "white clear paper" as itachi said sasuke can be coloured, in this case it was black or "madara colour"..only reason that seems logical.

I dont think so, if he wanted Itachi he could have gotten him when he was young, he wants Sasuke for a specific reason, and he knows Sasuke's eyes are special.

[KnuckleheadedNinja]

[QUOTE=KnuckleheadedNinja;912773]

I'm sorry I can't accept your last argument.

you don't have to accept it, that just the way things are.

alSo reread this page, it also show why the uchiha have to be stop:
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/400/07/

[seya]

I've reread the page but from the start I've chosen to believe that Madara is lying about the Uchihas.I'll change my point of view when someone else confirms his version of the story.Anyone who's not part of aka. Besides zetsu has stated that Itachi took the truth to his grave and nobody in aka would tell it to sasuke ,so the truth hasn't come out yet.There will be other chaps about Itachi and we 'll find out about the uchihas.

[seya]

Or Itachi was dying, sasuke is only his replacement. However Sasuke's growth is getting interesting to Madara.

[whiteHanzo]

madara says he's right and that means itachi+jiraiya are wrong

how could madara is right? so that sasuke thinks he's 'right'........errr, okay
how could itachi is wrong? so that sasuke thinks he's 'wrong'.......errr, okay

but why do jiraiya is wrong?
is it so that the frog seal would think he's wrong?
this is a very hard question, especially to those uchihas? :D:D:D

[The Adamant Dragon]

Its No Use Speculating About this subject. You'll never find an Answer... The only one Who got Answers is Kishimoto. So We just have to wait. Patience is the key... Patience

All Will be revealed when They tell Naruto the truth about his past and parents. Its sure that it was meant that Naruto will one day Unlock the key and Grasp his true and new power ( 'Cause We all know that He have a great amount of Chakra that he uses to keep the Kyubbi at bay AND is Able to Make a Thousand KB O.o ). Now Imagine Getting the complete hold of his chakras when he get the key.

But What I hope is that Yondaime Placed a message for naruto to discover when he Unlocks it. ( Father and son moment That would be EPIC).

[Muuugen]

@lazboyrod

UI think you've missunderstood the term "gotten itachi/sasuke".

when I said that madara couldn't get itachi, I meant that Itachi NEVER really was on the madara/bad side, he was always on konoha/sasuke side....which is the good side.
In other words madara couldn't manipulate itachi to his side like he did with sasuke.
just look at the comment madara said in the last page of chapter 1404..."so much for not touching konoha" and "NOW nothing stands in my way"..notice the "NOW", which means something did stand in his way and that was itachi and his feelings/reasonings.

[Forever_Melody]

Madara doesn't seem to want to make his plans very clear. Seems to me it can't just be something involving Konoha since Sasuke & Akatsuki are basically planning an attack on Konoha so if he simply wanted the village destroyed, he wouldn't be that far from his goal, yet despite the attack, he states capturing the 2 last Bijyuus are their top priority.

This means if he wants Sasuke that badly(and indirectly Naruto for being the 9 tails Jinchuuriki), then it probably has something to do with his plans with the Bijyuus. Maybe he's trying to achieve a Bijyuu controlling power like Moukuton since so far, MS(and EMS) have only been confirmed to control Kyuubi.

[lazyboyrod]

@lazboyrod

UI think you've missunderstood the term "gotten itachi/sasuke".

when I said that madara couldn't get itachi, I meant that Itachi NEVER really was on the madara/bad side, he was always on konoha/sasuke side....which is the good side.
In other words madara couldn't manipulate itachi to his side like he did with sasuke.
just look at the comment madara said in the last page of chapter 1404..."so much for not touching konoha" and "NOW nothing stands in my way"..notice the "NOW", which means something did stand in his way and that was itachi and his feelings/reasonings.

Well either way he couldnt get Itachi, so his goal now is Sasuke.

[lazyboyrod]

I dont think Kishi would let Jiraiya go out with false accuasations (or however you spell that word) since he thought Madara did it.

[Boagrious]

I dont think Kishi would let Jiraiya go out with false accuasations (or however you spell that word) since he thought Madara did it.

I agree. Kishi wouldn't put Jiraya in that spot this late in the story.

[x-nymphetamine-x]

someone already said this, but part of his motivation could be to obtain sasuke's body.
i mean, surely an uchiha so great doesn't want to be in a one-eyed body. so pal around and then take sasuke's the same way i still think he took obito's.

it still doesn't explain why he would've have taken itachi's, or left uchihas alive so he could just walk down the streets and pick one.

we've heard from orochimaru before that sasuke's eyes were better in quality, so that may have something to do with the body-taking idea... and apparently itachi had some kind of disease.

it's still a bit to early for me to make a for-sure decision about his motives, though.
madara's a tricky person, very confusing. had us all screaming obito and just burst out "i is madara!"

[KnuckleheadedNinja]

I dont think Kishi would let Jiraiya go out with false accuasations (or however you spell that word) since he thought Madara did it.

i agree, Kishi shouldn't let the coolest character go out like that.

[Finale]

Since its been established that Madara is the Mizukage I've been wondering if he is the one responsible for the Hidden Mist's former practice of pitting students against each other. This was practiced among the uchiha clan. But then that begs the question how long has Madara been the Mizukage?

[lazyboyrod]

I asked myself this question also, is he the current mizukage?, how long has he been in office, many questions, but yeah if he has been the mizukage for a while that would explain their brutal ways however I dont see the point since the do not have sharingan there is noting to gain from killing each other.

[KnuckleheadedNinja]

I think he is probably responsible for that practice. He probably become the Mizukage like 1-5 years after he got defeat by shodai

[lazyboyrod]

^^ Well I understand the uses for that practice within the Uchiha but not for non-Uchiha people, some might argue that he is trying to only have the best of the best but, why not have the best, and the second best and third best, that would be for the best in case of anything like a war.

[KnuckleheadedNinja]

^^ Well I understand the uses for that practice within the Uchiha but not for non-Uchiha people, some might argue that he is trying to only have the best of the best but, why not have the best, and the second best and third best, that would be for the best in case of anything like a war.

what do you mean not for non-Uchiah people? The Mist ninja weren't uchiha and they use the practice.

[lazyboyrod]

Because for the Uchiha it is actually for a caue (MS, and EMS) which makes the fighter infinately stronger, however the people of the mist were not Uchiha so they were just killing each other off just to find out who was strongest.

[KnuckleheadedNinja]

Because for the Uchiha it is actually for a caue (MS, and EMS) which makes the fighter infinately stronger, however the people of the mist were not Uchiha so they were just killing each other off just to find out who was strongest.

Now i get what you saying, but the propose of that partice for the Mist wasn't to gain a power-up but to eliminate the weak.

[lazyboyrod]

Now i get what you saying, but the propose of that partice for the Mist wasn't to gain a power-up but to eliminate the weak.

I see, I guess their goal was power in quality not quantity.

[wildG]

I see, I guess their goal was power in quality not quantity.

yeah just like uchihas....


and Madara reminds me of a Spartan leader where people thrown the children which were borned weak to a river beleiving that this way the god of river will take their souls and reborn them in another stronger body

[gfire2]

was that amergarkru (how ever u spell it) the one that gave the sannin title to jiraiya and co.. the mizukage

or could some1 explain the diff

[lazyboyrod]

was that amergarkru (how ever u spell it) the one that gave the sannin title to jiraiya and co.. the mizukage

or could some1 explain the diff

You mean Hanzou, he was a leader, and no he was not the mizukage

[gfire2]

You mean Hanzou, he was a leader, and no he was not the mizukage

o i see kinda like danzou, but it makes zabuza and kisame look like idiots for tryin to assassinate madara

[KnuckleheadedNinja]

o i see kinda like danzou, but it makes zabuza and kisame look like idiots for tryin to assassinate madara

Not really, Hanzou is from the Rain village and Madara is the Mizukage(Mist village).

[Razh]

They didn't try to assasinate Mizukage, but the feudal lord, as far as I remeber. There's a big difference.