Madara Mega Convo

[jodi]

I think that Itachi knew that Naruto was Minato's son, as he just said it to Kakashi when he was at Konoha with Kisame... it was dubious but still quite clear for me.

So I think that Madara knows about Naruto being Minato's son.

[M3J]

True, but its only people close to Minato who knew about Naruto being his son, i even doubt that kakashi knew as well....

I think Kakashi knew as well, he was Minato's student. One of the reasons he say Naruto could surpass Yondaime, I'm guessing. For all we know, Madara could have figured it out when he saw Yondaime seal half of the chakra into Naruto.. Kushina's pregnancy would be obvious, and Naruto does look a lot like Yondaime: the hair, eyes, face, even determination. It is possible that numerous people knew this, but was instructed by Sandaime to never even utter a word of it.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/143/03/
and the next page indicates Kakashi knew about Naruto's heritage.

[Grizz]

Yeah i've totally forgotten he was kakashi's master as well....

[Yondaime Uzumaki]

what does madara have to do with naruto controling kyuubi, or even the jutsu????????

I don't know if I can make it any more simple than that. The kyuubi's chakra will be used to complete "that jutsu", as stated by Jariaya. That jutsu will be used to kill Madara. Madara doesn't seem like the stupid person. If he knew of the relationship between Naruto and Minato (and Jariaya being the link to both of them) then he must've thought about the possibility of something like that happening. Even the possiblity of Minato sealing a part of himself into his son shouldn't have escape someone with as much experience as Madara. If so, ignoring it would be setting himself up for failure. Bottomline, Madara will lose because he overlooked the relationship between Minato and Naruto. If I was Madara, I would plan accordingly. Now, not only will Naruto have an incredibly power jutsu but he also knows about Madara somewhat. He could even find out exactly who he was, if he pieced together all the information from the kyuubi, Kakashi, Minato and the scroll frog. It would make no sense to give Naruto the time needed to get strong enough to fight Madara unless you never thought he would get that strong, and that an impossibility if you know who his father is.

[THM Nindo]

Hey Guys,
I looked over the Character discussion pages, and couldn't find any Mega-Convo on Tobi/Madara.

So, here it is.

So, the first question is : Is Tobi really Madara?
And if he's Madara, is he using someone else body?

So, I put up a little poll for you to give your opinion on this endless question.

_____________

My opinion :
- Obito is dead (shown in Kakashi Gaiden)
- It can't be Danzou as they contradict themselves (Madara wants Naruto, Danzou prevent Naruto returns)
- The real Madara is most probably dead (I can't believe that Shodaime would be fooled by Madara)

I was trying to think of who it could be if it Tobi wasn't Madara, Obito or Danzou, and I start thinking about Izuna, Madara's younger brother.

They were told to both have MS, right?
And to have EMS, you need to take your brother's eyes.

What if the two brothers just exchange eyes!?
That would make it so that Madara AND his young brother would have EMS.

And since Madara should be dead by now (can you really think that Shodaime, the most renown Shinobi of all time, could be fooled by a fake death?), we can't rule out that his brother took out his identity.

I think after Madara's death, his younger brother left and became the Mizukage (he had already taken the identity of his brother by then).

Tobi could simply be the real Madara, but I think it was revealed too soon, so I think there will be some "surprise' about his real identity.
And since I don't really believe in the Danzou theory, I think the only "surprise" that would make sense is my theory about Izuna.

What do you think?

[-Ren Boy-]

Food for fought but there are two things

I have not got enough evidence but apparently in a data book it stated Izuna Uchiha(madara's bro) died in battle later on. So Obito and him are on the same boat

Also on this page it stated that http://narutocentral.com/manga.php?s=naruto&c=399&p=3 That sentence "and willingly gave me his eyes" implies that he didn't give any eyes to Izuna but it is food for fought and that is a clever idea.

http://narutocentral.com/manga.php?s=naruto&c=399&p=4 Tobi almost speaks as if his Brother gave up everything for the clan instead of Madara and bro giving up so much to make the clan better impling that Madara did not give away his eyes

Like I said Food for fought but I will still consider that Madara has some how put his soul into Obito's body and just made it his own.

EDIT@ I noticed that Izuna and Obito share the same birthday ironic. If you want to put that on the starter thread you can. Also it makes me suport this theory a a bit more

[wildG]

izuna died cause he got his eyes ripped off it was said lol...

[Destined_One]

Uno I never knew why the brothers didn't just trade eyes.. they would both fulfill the reqs for EMS no?

Madara was my vote...

[Wrave Kurotsuchi]

I am standing with the theory that Madara is using Obito's body. Everything kinda points that way. The pic of when Madara partially took off his mask, the minor view looks a lot like Obito.

[THM Nindo]

izuna died cause he got his eyes ripped off it was said lol...

Said by Madara.
He's been lying a lot, so I don't see why he would not lie about that too.

Especially if he's actually Izuna and wants to take Madara's identity.

[-Ren Boy-]

izuna died cause he got his eyes ripped off it was said lol...

Apparently in a databook he died in battle Blind

but this guy in the right bottem corner resembles izuna http://narutocentral.com/manga.php?s=naruto&c=399&p=4

[Wrave Kurotsuchi]

Here (http://narutocentral.com/manga.php?s=naruto&c=396&p=16) and here (http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/naruto/images/b/b3/Obitouchiha.png) I know those are not the best but I think you get my point.

[-Ren Boy-]

Wrave Kurotsuchi you don't understand this theory. We know whos body it is and that is obito.We are trying to discuss on who soul is in the body e.g Madara

[Wrave Kurotsuchi]

Oh in that case, I think there are two souls. Sort of a Yin and Yang thing. Madara being bad and Obito is good.

[THM Nindo]

Wrave Kurotsuchi you don't understand this theory. We know whos body it is and that is obito.We are trying to discuss on who soul is in the body e.g Madara

Actually, I think it would be a good "surprise" if it was Obito's body, but I don't it is.

Okay, I agree that we never saw Tobi's right side and that he stopped Suigestsu blade with his right arm (people think it might be a robotic arm), but that doesn't proove anything.

And, the biggest flaw of that theory is : How can it be Obito's body? When he died he was 14 years old and was shorter than Kakashi (from that time)!!!
Unless you tell me that dead bodies can grow up!?

[Darth Executor]

Here's my theory on madara:

http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46899

Summary:

I think he is madara and he survives by using advanced space-time to "link" his body parts together. This also means that he can get new body parts and patch them up to his old body when the old ones decay. The extent of the mix and match is anybody's guess. He could simply be linking his brain to a different body. Obito's is not out of the question.

One thing I'm certain of is that he's not simply madara and that kishimoto has turned his face into such a huge mystery because of that, though I would like to hear alternate theories as to why he'd make such a mystery out of what tobi looks like. For the record, I think he could plausibly be both an old madara and a banged-up obito. They are family after all so looking similar is only natural.
[hr]

Actually, I think it would be a good "surprise" if it was Obito's body, but I don't it is.

Okay, I agree that we never saw Tobi's right side and that he stopped Suigestsu blade with his right arm (people think it might be a robotic arm), but that doesn't proove anything.

And, the biggest flaw of that theory is : How can it be Obito's body? When he died he was 14 years old and was shorter than Kakashi (from that time)!!!
Unless you tell me that dead bodies can grow up!?

My theory accounts for that. His head didn't get smashed (or he'd have died instantly), so the head attached to another body could continue to age naturally, provided he picked it up in time. I've also theorized that Zetsu could be collecting and keeping bodies for him, so he could've put obito in stasis for Madara to use.

No matter what the truth is, I still don't understand why tobi's only shown with one eye. You'd think he could pick up and transplant one into his other socket during the uchiha massacre.

[wildG]

Apparently in a databook he died in battle Blind

but this guy in the right bottem corner resembles izuna http://narutocentral.com/manga.php?s=naruto&c=399&p=4

woah, i think i have missed this detail! thanks for telling me, so he actually fought while being blind? Woah thats kinda crazy l0l, insane uchihas this makes them even more interesting!

[Kusachu]

Oh good! How convenient! I was hoping there would be a madara mega convo for me post this in and POOF!! YAY!! Right at the top of the page. :XD

Anyways, I haven't read all the posts yet but just gotta ask about this.

So I was reading volume 43 by Viz and in chapter 399 on page 13 (183 in the volume) in the middle right panel, under the guy with the shadowy face it says in parentheses: (Madara). That part of Madara's story is well after Madara was believed to be dead, so I'm just wondering if that really implies that it IS Madara there with those Uchiha and what THAT would imply as far as the story goes. And this little "note" isn't in the scanlations that I have seen (like here: http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/399/13/). Put Tobi's mask on that guy. It's like 100% match. Any theories?
[hr]
I hate to say it but, from the way the timeline seems to be, if that guy in the picture IS actually somehow Madara, then it's very unlikely that Obito is anywhere in the equation because that guy seems more grown up than him and Obito died at 13, right before Kyuubi attacked.


Oh and I voted option #2. :thumbs

[Xiraiya]

Why is Obito even being considered. *slap* Where is your common sense GONE!?

Anyway, I feel like that Tobi is infact Madara, but considering how different he looked when Itachi met him, it made me wonder if perhaps it's really Izuna, he would know the history too.

[Kusachu]

Why is Obito even being considered. *slap* Where is your common sense GONE!?

Anyway, I feel like that Tobi is infact Madara, but considering how different he looked when Itachi met him, it made me wonder if perhaps it's really Izuna, he would know the history too.


BUT WHAT ABOUT THE GUY IN THE PICTURE!!!! AAAAAAAAAAAAH! IT'S MAKING ME CRAZY!!! :yelling

[Xiraiya]

BUT WHAT ABOUT THE GUY IN THE PICTURE!!!! AAAAAAAAAAAAH! IT'S MAKING ME CRAZY!!! :yelling

that guy is clearly Zetsu.

[/sarcasm]

[Kusachu]

that guy is clearly Zetsu.

[/sarcasm]Why does it say he's Madara?!? It must be him. But he's young as hell there if it is, and he's clearly not the same guy as Madara as we know him from the flashbacks. He doesn't look like Izuna either. Something smells funny. :notrust

[Kouzen]

So I was reading volume 43 by Viz and in chapter 399 on page 13 (183 in the volume) in the middle right panel, under the guy with the shadowy face it says in parentheses: (Madara). That part of Madara's story is well after Madara was believed to be dead, so I'm just wondering if that really implies that it IS Madara there with those Uchiha and what THAT would imply as far as the story goes. And this little "note" isn't in the scanlations that I have seen (like here: http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/399/13/). Put Tobi's mask on that guy. It's like 100% match. Any theories?
<hr noshade size="1">
I hate to say it but, from the way the timeline seems to be, if that guy in the picture IS actually somehow Madara, then it's very unlikely that Obito is anywhere in the equation because that guy seems more grown up than him and Obito died at 13, right before Kyuubi attacked.

First post here, so hi everyone.
And about your question, above the shadowy guy there are 3 katakana that say "Madara" like a tomb stone or a banner or something. So i guess it's just a translator's note about the katakana characters.
Hope that's help:eyeroll

[Kusachu]

First post here, so hi everyone.
And about your question, above the shadowy guy there are 3 katakana that say "Madara" like a tomb stone or a banner or something. So i guess it's just a translator's note about the katakana characters.
Hope that's help:eyeroll


Oh my god. Thank you. I couldn't get that shit for the life of me. :D

[Forever_Melody]

Actually, there was some theory somewhere I read....

It said that the real blight of the MS is that it slowly drove you crazy.. And that Tobi was in fact some random Uchiha(could be the guy in Kusachu's link) who just went kahoodles and thinks he's Madara and everything associated with it :o Hence the dual personality between Madara & Tobi.

Was a pretty funny theory to say the least lol :p

[THM Nindo]

First post here, so hi everyone.
And about your question, above the shadowy guy there are 3 katakana that say "Madara" like a tomb stone or a banner or something. So i guess it's just a translator's note about the katakana characters.
Hope that's help:eyeroll

Thanks for the info. Never saw that.
Does that mean that the tomb of Madara is in Konoha?

Then I guess it would be easy to verify if he's still alive. Just open the grave :p

But, we are lacking info on his battle against Shodaime.
Did Shodaime bring back the corpse to put him in his grave?
Did he really just left him here, thinking that he was dead?

Serioulsy, I have serious doubt that the Shodaime, the greatest ninja of all time, could be fool this easily by Madara playing dead.
That's part of the reason why I think Tobi is not the real Madara.

And Kishi is good with the surprise... He already said that he was Madara...
Then, why does he keep his mask? Why is Kishi still hiding this chararacter's face?
Nope... there's something fishy here... Tobi is not Madara.

My opinion : It's Izuna. (Even the Databook lied before)

[bgx]

I think Kakashi knew as well, he was Minato's student. One of the reasons he say Naruto could surpass Yondaime, I'm guessing. For all we know, Madara could have figured it out when he saw Yondaime seal half of the chakra into Naruto.. Kushina's pregnancy would be obvious, and Naruto does look a lot like Yondaime: the hair, eyes, face, even determination. It is possible that numerous people knew this, but was instructed by Sandaime to never even utter a word of it.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/143/03/
and the next page indicates Kakashi knew about Naruto's heritage.

ITS NOT SURE whether Kakashi knows that Naruto is 4ths son. Logically he should know, but it was never stated in manga. Kakashi compares Naruto to 4th but never use word son. Its the same as Naruto was comparing himself to 4th but he got the news 300chapters later. They sub-conciously link themselfs.

Same goes for 4th's inheritance that u have mentioned. Its not clear he knew it before J-man told him that. He could wonder about it but we have never seen it.

Also it would be strange if Madara didn't know, i guess he knows, why u ask?
Well Kishi-Sama is making next big villain ----> Madara, he made him to overshadow Minato. He is hyping Madara by using ultimate best character (Minato aka 4th). Its quite a circle, same went by Kakashi losing to Itachi, then Sandaime losing to Orochimaru then Jiraiya losing to Pain :))) Now we have Minato losing to Madara. All this to show us him as perfect evil. But i guess the story will repeat; )

[Kouzen]

I don't really think that is a tombstone tho. It's look like it was carved on stone so the first thing i think about was a tomb stone lol, it could be a sign like "Madara's shrine", "Madara's bedroom", etc. Naruto got a bridge named after him, why not Madara. Maybe it's just there to show that those Uchihas were following Madara's way.

And i kinda like the "Tobi=random uchiha gone mad due to MS" thing. The Uchihas have been shown to be kinda.. unstable (or even outright mentally challenged in the case of Sasuke...). The Sharingan's power always strike me as being dark and demonic in nature. As its power increase, it corrupted the user and lead to horrible act. Kyubi's comment about the cursed chakra also support this in someway. It may make a good twist for the story.

[THM Nindo]

I don't really think that is a tombstone tho. It's look like it was carved on stone so the first thing i think about was a tomb stone lol, it could be a sign like "Madara's shrine", "Madara's bedroom", etc. Naruto got a bridge named after him, why not Madara. Maybe it's just there to show that those Uchihas were following Madara's way.

And i kinda like the "Tobi=random uchiha gone mad due to MS" thing. The Uchihas have been shown to be kinda.. unstable (or even outright mentally challenged in the case of Sasuke...). The Sharingan's power always strike me as being dark and demonic in nature. As its power increase, it corrupted the user and lead to horrible act. Kyubi's comment about the cursed chakra also support this in someway. It may make a good twist for the story.


Hmmm... yeah, but now that Pain is beaten, there's no much more villains and there's high change that Tobi/Madara is the big boss..

So, I doubt he's just a random nins that think he's Madara.
In anyway, he must be really strong since no one can touch him and Nagato was under his orders.

And the only Uchihas that we were told about and that were strong are Madara and Izuna.

[M3J]

Why is Obito even being considered. *slap* Where is your common sense GONE!?

Anyway, I feel like that Tobi is infact Madara, but considering how different he looked when Itachi met him, it made me wonder if perhaps it's really Izuna, he would know the history too.
Only difference I saw was the hair and the mask.


Thanks for the info. Never saw that.
Does that mean that the tomb of Madara is in Konoha?

Then I guess it would be easy to verify if he's still alive. Just open the grave :p

But, we are lacking info on his battle against Shodaime.
Did Shodaime bring back the corpse to put him in his grave?
Did he really just left him here, thinking that he was dead?

Serioulsy, I have serious doubt that the Shodaime, the greatest ninja of all time, could be fool this easily by Madara playing dead.
That's part of the reason why I think Tobi is not the real Madara.

And Kishi is good with the surprise... He already said that he was Madara...
Then, why does he keep his mask? Why is Kishi still hiding this chararacter's face?
Nope... there's something fishy here... Tobi is not Madara.

My opinion : It's Izuna. (Even the Databook lied before)

He could be hiding the character's face to give Madara that sense of mystery, and with mystery is assumed great power, in most cases anyway. We saw some part of Madara's face, though.

I think Madara's left eye is mainly the eye that's fucked up. In the flashback when he met Itachi and now, his left eye has been covered. It could indicate some problems with that eye, hence the need for bijuu. And as much as I'm against this theory, Tobi does remind me of Obito.

[M3J]

Minato would tell Kakashi though, he would trust his former student, and even ask him to help protect Naruto, if not become his teacher.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/143/07/ -- Jiraiya states that Akatsuki could be looking for new jutsu; Fourth's inheritance could be Rasengan, Hiraishin, or even Fuuin Shikin (soz if I spelled that wrong), but Kakashi knew it was Naruto or thought it was Naruto first.

Minato didn't lose to Madara, he was fighting the Kyuubi, not Madara.

[Yondaime Uzumaki]

Minato didn't lose to Madara, he was fighting the Kyuubi, not Madara.

Nah, he lost to Madara. Madara was controlling the kyuubi and the kyuubi was used as a weapon for Madara. Any way you look at it, he lost to Madara. One could even say that Minato would still be alive had Madara not been there. Minato said that Madara saw through everything he did, implying that he used other jutsu before using the Dead Consuming Seal.

[PitchBlack857]

Nah, he lost to Madara. Madara was controlling the kyuubi and the kyuubi was used as a weapon for Madara. Any way you look at it, he lost to Madara. One could even say that Minato would still be alive had Madara not been there. Minato said that Madara saw through everything he did, implying that he used other jutsu before using the Dead Consuming Seal.

I see what your saying Minato's Dead and Madara isn't, but Minato sealed the strongest force in the world up and saved the village from destruction. That's a win in my opinion.

And I do think Madara knows who Naruto's papa is, he often refers to him as Naruto Uzamaki instead just kyubii. He probably don't give a fuck though cause he's a Uchiah and he believe he's bloodline is the strongest. Only others who I think know are Sarutobi and his Teammates,Danzo,Kakashi,Yamato,Pervy and Tsunade.

[M3J]

Nah, he lost to Madara. Madara was controlling the kyuubi and the kyuubi was used as a weapon for Madara. Any way you look at it, he lost to Madara. One could even say that Minato would still be alive had Madara not been there. Minato said that Madara saw through everything he did, implying that he used other jutsu before using the Dead Consuming Seal.

He was fighting Kyuubi though, not Madara. Madara just saw through Minato and controlled the Kyuubi, he didn't get into the fight himself. From what it looks like, only Minato knew who this as no one else has mentioned this, other than Jiraiya.
Would he really be alive? Maybe Kyuubi couldn't be easily killed either way, hence Minato needing to use the seal. I dunno though. but he probably wouldn't have sealed the other half of the chakra in Naruto cuz he wouldn't have known about Madara.

[-Ren Boy-]

It is coinscience that Obito who is the body, and Izuna share the same birthday :p

[Forever_Melody]

Hmm if it is Izuna though, how the heck did Izuna survive? >.>

I mean, if he's in Obito's body(whose right eye got crushed, but Tobi is shown using only his right eye), how did that happen? Another Oro? :o

[Kusachu]

Hmm if it is Izuna though, how the heck did Izuna survive? >.>

I mean, if he's in Obito's body(whose right eye got crushed, but Tobi is shown using only his right eye), how did that happen? Another Oro? :o


Yeah, but there's no way that his eye actually got "crushed" because if his eye was crushed his skull and probably brain would have been crushed with it and he would have died instantly, not been awake and talking. I think that side of his face got damaged, but not crushed.

But then, I don't hold much hope that Obito is Madara though. But then, it would seem that ANYTHING can happen. ;) All I know is, I DO think that Madara is someone else physically than "Madara", because if his eyes were "eternal" then they never shut off right? Or maybe that's just conjecture...but what's up with Tobi's other eye though? Is it gone? Or is it just on all the time and he doesn't want anyone to see it??

The whole thing is annoying and I hope when the truth comes out it isn't dumb. :darn

[Yondaime Uzumaki]

I see what your saying Minato's Dead and Madara isn't, but Minato sealed the strongest force in the world up and saved the village from destruction. That's a win in my opinion.

And I do think Madara knows who Naruto's papa is, he often refers to him as Naruto Uzamaki instead just kyubii. He probably don't give a fuck though cause he's a Uchiah and he believe he's bloodline is the strongest. Only others who I think know are Sarutobi and his Teammates,Danzo,Kakashi,Yamato,Pervy and Tsunade.

Minato sealing the kyuubi by giving his own life is a win? If the kyuubi was fighting alone, it still wouldn't necessarily be a win. It's a kamikaze mission, no one wins. Granted, he died one of the most honorable deaths that one can die, but Madara and the kyuubi is still alive. Minato may have ruined Madara's plans but he did not win against Madara or the kyuubi.


He was fighting Kyuubi though, not Madara. Madara just saw through Minato and controlled the Kyuubi, he didn't get into the fight himself. From what it looks like, only Minato knew who this as no one else has mentioned this, other than Jiraiya.
Would he really be alive? Maybe Kyuubi couldn't be easily killed either way, hence Minato needing to use the seal. I dunno though. but he probably wouldn't have sealed the other half of the chakra in Naruto cuz he wouldn't have known about Madara.

You just contradicted yourself. You say that Minato was fighting the kyuubi and not Madara yet you also say that Madara saw through Minato's jutsu and controlled the kyuubi. He did get into the fight just by controlling the kyuubi. He didn't have to use his physical body to fight, puppet users don't really use their physical bodies either. Actually, that's a pretty good description of what happened, the kyuubi was used as a puppet. In other words, Madara was directly involved in that fight and he was directly responsible for the fall of Minato and the sealing of the kyuubi into Naruto.

[Belisar]

Does Madara Know That Naruto Is Minato's son???
of course he does because madara is minato's..........father! http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff286/nfforums/wuut.png

[M3J]

You just contradicted yourself. You say that Minato was fighting the kyuubi and not Madara yet you also say that Madara saw through Minato's jutsu and controlled the kyuubi. He did get into the fight just by controlling the kyuubi. He didn't have to use his physical body to fight, puppet users don't really use their physical bodies either. Actually, that's a pretty good description of what happened, the kyuubi was used as a puppet. In other words, Madara was directly involved in that fight and he was directly responsible for the fall of Minato and the sealing of the kyuubi into Naruto.

I consider physical fighting to be fight, but I think I'd agree with you. He had to appear somewhere, if Minato saw who was controlling the Kyuubi. I wonder if anyone else knows about this or not though.
But I think Madara might know Naruto's Minato's son. Orochimaru and Itachi were in Akatsuki, and Madara could see the resemblance and find out why the Kyuubi was sealed in Naruto. He could guess based on the info he has.

[Yondaime Uzumaki]

I consider physical fighting to be fight, but I think I'd agree with you. He had to appear somewhere, if Minato saw who was controlling the Kyuubi. I wonder if anyone else knows about this or not though.
But I think Madara might know Naruto's Minato's son. Orochimaru and Itachi were in Akatsuki, and Madara could see the resemblance and find out why the Kyuubi was sealed in Naruto. He could guess based on the info he has.

I don't think that Madara knows simply because Naruto was given his mother's last name for this reason. I also still think Naruto's mother is alive but fled the country for the same reason. Minato himself said that the Sandaime probably kept Naruto in the dark because of Minato's enemies. While the Sandaime probably didn't know about Madara, I think that it's safe to say that Madara can be considered as one of those enemies. In other words, the secrecy surrounding Naruto's lineage is supposed to kept Madara in the dark as well.

We all know that Naruto isn't the sharper tool in the shed as far as common sense goes, but even Naruto would be able to figure it out if Madara could. We tend to look at it differently because we are on the outside looking in. In a real-life scenario, it would never cross our minds that Naruto and Minato were related. If that's the case, why would Madara think any differently. I'm sure it wouldn't even cross Madara's mind, considering the the entire village treated Naruto like shit since birth. Doesn't seem worthy of the Hokage's son if you ask me.

[M3J]

It doesn't mean it's not possible for Madara to find out, he could know who was Minato's lover and know about her getting pregnant with Naruto. Some details of the secret could be leaked for all we know.
Madara is one of those enemies, regardless of knowing Naruto's heritage or not. He's been Naruto's enemy since he had the Kyuubi sealed in him. I'm not sure if he had direct enmity or hatred towards Minato though.

Minato had to tell Naruto, otherwise he had no inkling whatsoever about his parents, or father at least. Itachi most likely knew about Naruto and his heritage, Madara probably did too, either by being told or by figuring it out. Madara is definitely far more intelligent than Naruto. It would cross some minds; Minato sealed Kyuubi in Naruto and he looks very similar to Minato, even has personality of Kushina, Minato's known lover (probably not known to others?). Many people who care would think about this, wonder what's going on. Madara would, at least. "Why seal Kyuubi in a baby when it could be killed? What if the baby uses the power for evil purpose, why would the hokage trust someone so easily like that?" The village didn't care to think about that, they hated the Kyuubi and wanted it dead. And Sandaime made it so there was no mention of the Kyuubi, especially Naruto, and thus they didn't know his heritage. Konohamaru was treated special because he was related to the Sandaime, who was still alive, and his clan name was loved and respected. I don't think a lot knew about Uzumaki, and they hated the Kyuubi, and Yondaime wasn't alive for them to suck up to him via Naruto.

I have a feeling that there's something missing in my post, or that I blundered and it makes no sense. If so, please point it out so I can rectify. >_<

[Yondaime Uzumaki]

It doesn't mean it's not possible for Madara to find out, he could know who was Minato's lover and know about her getting pregnant with Naruto. Some details of the secret could be leaked for all we know.
Madara is one of those enemies, regardless of knowing Naruto's heritage or not. He's been Naruto's enemy since he had the Kyuubi sealed in him. I'm not sure if he had direct enmity or hatred towards Minato though.

Minato had to tell Naruto, otherwise he had no inkling whatsoever about his parents, or father at least. Itachi most likely knew about Naruto and his heritage, Madara probably did too, either by being told or by figuring it out. Madara is definitely far more intelligent than Naruto. It would cross some minds; Minato sealed Kyuubi in Naruto and he looks very similar to Minato, even has personality of Kushina, Minato's known lover (probably not known to others?). Many people who care would think about this, wonder what's going on. Madara would, at least. "Why seal Kyuubi in a baby when it could be killed? What if the baby uses the power for evil purpose, why would the hokage trust someone so easily like that?" The village didn't care to think about that, they hated the Kyuubi and wanted it dead. And Sandaime made it so there was no mention of the Kyuubi, especially Naruto, and thus they didn't know his heritage. Konohamaru was treated special because he was related to the Sandaime, who was still alive, and his clan name was loved and respected. I don't think a lot knew about Uzumaki, and they hated the Kyuubi, and Yondaime wasn't alive for them to suck up to him via Naruto.

I have a feeling that there's something missing in my post, or that I blundered and it makes no sense. If so, please point it out so I can rectify. >_<

I don't know why everyone thinks that Itachi knew about Minato being Naruto's father. He was only four when Naruto was born. If you mean the "fourth's inheritance", I'm pretty sure he meant the kyuubi, especially since they were after the kyuubi and not Naruto(as Jariaya stated). You can take his words however you want, but I believe that he meant the kyuubi and not "the son of Minato".

You keep saying that Madara could've found known or found out about Kushina Uzumaki but you're not looking at it the way I am. What importance would Kushina be to him? There has to be a reason for him to actually care about Minato's lover. Would he be researching someone of no importance to him for fun? That's like Pain caring who Hinata(or Sakura) is. He didn't because it made no difference to him either way. And add to that the fact that she wasn't even from Konoha, I doubt he knew or knows of her. She's not there and no one that knows of her can speak about her, under the previous Hokage's orders. So you mean to tell me that Madara will have Konoha shinobi interrogated for information that he has no clue about? There has to be a basis for an interrogation. You have to know what you're looking for. If he has no clue about Kushina, he can't interrogate someone about her.

To simplify this entire long ass comment, Madara had no reason to care who Kushina was. Obviously, that doesn't apply now, but back then he had no reason to care about Kushina.

[M3J]

I don't know why everyone thinks that Itachi knew about Minato being Naruto's father. He was only four when Naruto was born. If you mean the "fourth's inheritance", I'm pretty sure he meant the kyuubi, especially since they were after the kyuubi and not Naruto(as Jariaya stated). You can take his words however you want, but I believe that he meant the kyuubi and not "the son of Minato".
He could have been told this. For all we know, he may have been told this because of him joining Akatsuki, whether to protect Naruto or to capture Naruto. He wouldn't state it like that if he was talking about Kyuubi, but different people interpret different things.


You keep saying that Madara could've found known or found out about Kushina Uzumaki but you're not looking at it the way I am. What importance would Kushina be to him? There has to be a reason for him to actually care about Minato's lover. Would he be researching someone of no importance to him for fun? That's like Pain caring who Hinata(or Sakura) is. He didn't because it made no difference to him either way. And add to that the fact that she wasn't even from Konoha, I doubt he knew or knows of her. She's not there and no one that knows of her can speak about her, under the previous Hokage's orders. So you mean to tell me that Madara will have Konoha shinobi interrogated for information that he has no clue about? There has to be a basis for an interrogation. You have to know what you're looking for. If he has no clue about Kushina, he can't interrogate someone about her.
Kushina could be a way of getting to Minato. She could have been one of the strongest Konoha ninja. Madara could be looking into Kushina to make sure she's not a threat or that great a threat, he'd assume the lover of one of the strongest nin is strong herself. Pain didn't care because he knew he could beat Hinata with a simple Shinra Tensei. Kushina's power, we don't know yet, but the databook suggests she's very strong to have survived war.
Sandaime made that rule after the Kyuubi incident, not long before. It could be possible. He could be asking about anyone potentially protecting Naruto, someone who cares about him. He could be trying to make sure he's adequately prepared to capture Naruto.


To simplify this entire long ass comment, Madara had no reason to care who Kushina was. Obviously, that doesn't apply now, but back then he had no reason to care about Kushina.

Says who? We dunno about Kushina, what her role was at that time. We assume, use "probably" and "might". Kushina could have also been a threat to Madara or Akatsuki that needed to be taken out in a way or another.

[PitchBlack857]

Minato sealing the kyuubi by giving his own life is a win? If the kyuubi was fighting alone, it still wouldn't necessarily be a win. It's a kamikaze mission, no one wins. Granted, he died one of the most honorable deaths that one can die, but Madara and the kyuubi is still alive. Minato may have ruined Madara's plans but he did not win against Madara or the kyuubi.


It's all how you look at it really, I feel Minato is a winner because he saved the village and took the enemy's(Madara's) greatest weapon and gave it to his son/village. He's a hero , the guy is like Tupac,Kurt Cobain,Marvin Gaye,Jimmy Hendricks or James Dean, basically he's a legend that died in his prime.

Madara for all the gangsta shit he does is remembered for getting his ass beat by the Hirashama for the crown. And in the future will be remembered for losing again to either Sasuke or Naruto.

[Necro-melo]

I'm 90% possitive that Madara is just Madara , the 10% is for him being in another body (but not obito nor danzou)

About that Izuna=Madara stuff, It would indeed be a great surprise , but..like Melody said, how would he have survived?His brother took his eyes, so he couldn't get far, unless he re-stole Madara's eye somehow >.> He also didn't look to be able to act like the Madara we know, he seems more good than him, I doubt he would be as manipulative , or want wars and such.( but who know maybe with time he changed)

Why does this Tobito theorie still exist >< it's so fishy , there is just too many flaws in it..Like someone else said above , how could a dead body grow up? >.> (even if he would have 'revived' the body or something ,its still fishy )
why the hell would Madara pick obito while he could have just bother to take an intact uchiha's body? Also obito's right side of his body should be in a very very bad shape (think about it) and when we saw half of Madara's face he looked normal, exept for those weird lines. One last thing, if you look the two closely they don't have the same eye's shape.

Same goes with the danzou=Madara, just look at them (physically), they are just 2 different persons, but with similliar ideals nothing else

[M3J]

Madara can teleport though, so he could be teleporting to Konoha and from Konoha.

[THM Nindo]

I'm 90% possitive that Madara is just Madara , the 10% is for him being in another body (but not obito nor danzou)

About that Izuna=Madara stuff, It would indeed be a great surprise , but..like Melody said, how would he have survived?His brother took his eyes, so he couldn't get far, unless he re-stole Madara's eye somehow >.> He also didn't look to be able to act like the Madara we know, he seems more good than him, I doubt he would be as manipulative , or want wars and such.( but who know maybe with time he changed)

Why does this Tobito theorie still exist >< it's so fishy , there is just too many flaws in it..Like someone else said above , how could a dead body grow up? >.> (even if he would have 'revived' the body or something ,its still fishy )
why the hell would Madara pick obito while he could have just bother to take an intact uchiha's body? Also obito's right side of his body should be in a very very bad shape (think about it) and when we saw half of Madara's face he looked normal, exept for those weird lines. One last thing, if you look the two closely they don't have the same eye's shape.

Same goes with the danzou=Madara, just look at them (physically), they are just 2 different persons, but with similliar ideals nothing else

I agree with you that Tobi/Madara is more than likely only Madara, but I want to believe that there's a twist in his identity. That would make it better. :p

As for Izuna, as I said earlier, the only time we heard about his story is when Tobi told Sasuke. He could be lying to him (especially if he's Izuna and he wants to make him believe he's Madara, he would obviously pretend to be dead).
And I think there's a huge plot-hole about the Uchiha Brothers...
Madara and Izuna both had MS, so they could simply exchange eyes and both have EMS.
So, I want to believe in this theory, because it would also cover up for this huge plot-hole from Kishi.

As for the other theories...
Danzou - He's doing the opposite of what Tobi wants... so I doubt it's him.
Obito's body being used - Well, the one thing that can support this is the fact the we haven't seen half of Tobi body (the part that was crushed) and also the fact that Obito was never confirmed dead (he just disappeared under rocks...)
It would be a great twist to have Obito being Tobi, but it's not likely :p:p

[M3J]

Madara wanted to be hokage, what's to say he still doesn't want to be hokage? He could come in the form of Danzou, many theories spring out from this one.

They probably thought Madara's eyes were sealed and unusable, hence Izuna not taking Madara's eyes.

[Forever_Melody]

One thing that bothers me is that Danzou managed to sneak into the Hokage's office while everyone had their back turned and killed the toad without anyone noticing... I mean, he's crippled for Pete's sake yet he was able to pull all that off without anyone noticing. Something smells from Danzou.... Either that or he was always in the room and he has UBER stealth skills >.>

Anyways, I'm interested as well as to why Madara only shows one of his eyes. Is anything wrong with the other one?

[Halfmetal-lich]

Another point that we may want to consider is that the fact that Kakeshi is indeed alive. While this could point to the fact that Kakeshi is going to be Hokage, ((The Chapter where Naruto's parents are revealed does indeed have Tsunade saying that Kakeshi is an obvious choice, as does the recent spoilers) It may also mean that Obito and Tobi may still have a connection.

I think we need to withhold judgment until we see that mask come fully off, but I wouldn't count Obito out of the running yet, now that Kakeshi is alive and well.

[M3J]

I doubt anyone other than Minato, Rin, and Kakashi knew where Obito's body was. And Tobi's tall, Obito wasn't that tall yet.

[Halfmetal-lich]

Everybody can have a growth spurt.

and it's a manga...there is no point in trying to get logic out of anything.

[segua]

^^I think he know too. But i wonder where/how he get all his info about Konoha. I don't think Itachi would have told him of the things he knew that he shouldn't really know.

Itachi wouldn't tell Sasori and Deidara who Naruto was until Pain ordered Itachi to. Even then, Itachi gave scant details. Itachi is such a good guy at heart. He doesn't want to betray his fellow Konoha ninjas and hurt other people.

Seeing how Madara is so keen on things, I'm sure Madara would even know down to the very second Naruto was born. Maybe Madara has it all recorded in his memory.

[porkupine]

I've not seen anyone else suggest this, so I thought I'd ask what people thought.

Reasons for:
1. everyone thought he had been killed by Shodai Hokage at the Valley of the End;
2. as he said to Zetsu, the Rinne Tensei (ressurrection jutsu) was meant for him;
3. people phase through him, like a ghost; and
4. we've not seen him do much, indicating he's not capable of much.

Reasons against:
1. he stopped Suigetsu's sword with his arm;
2. he was burnable by Sasuke's Amaterasu;

If Suigetsu's sword has chakra, like perhaps the Samehada does, him being a chakra-ghost still makes sense.

So, I'm guessing this: he was actually killed by Shodai Hokage, but continued to exist as some sort of chakra ghost, most probably thanks to the Sharingan (since everything unexplainable in Narutoverse comes down to doujutsu).

What do you think? Feel free to correct me if I made any mistakes.

[AkatsukiNoTobi]

He also kicked Naruto in the face. If he was a "chakra ghost" then Sasuke and Kakashi would be able to tell with the sharingan, since it can see chakra as colors.

[Darth Executor]

2. as he said to Zetsu, the Rinne Tensei (ressurrection jutsu) was meant for him;



Yes but not him personally. One of the translation had "for my sake". Maybe he was planning a mass resurrection for some sort of army.

[porkupine]

AkatsukiNoTobi: Sasuke/Itachi would be able to see his chakra ghost, not that he didn't have a body to go with it. I'm not sure that opposes my idea.

Darth Executor: "for my sake" doesn't exclude resurrecting himself. It might admit other possibilities, sure, but again it doesn't really oppose my idea.

Him kicking Naruto is Naruto is a good counter, though. He clearly can interact with people. His lack of personal activity could simply be down to him wanting to keep his existence secret. It seems that very few people know that Madara is alive.
[hr]

And nope, he is not a ghost

And you think this why?

[Boagrious]

AkatsukiNoTobi: Sasuke/Itachi would be able to see his chakra ghost, not that he didn't have a body to go with it. I'm not sure that opposes my idea.

Darth Executor: "for my sake" doesn't exclude resurrecting himself. It might admit other possibilities, sure, but again it doesn't really oppose my idea.

Him kicking Naruto is Naruto is a good counter, though. He clearly can interact with people. His lack of personal activity could simply be down to him wanting to keep his existence secret. It seems that very few people know that Madara is alive.
<hr noshade size="1">


And you think this why?

''ghosts'' are spiritual entities with no physical properties, and he already showed us that he can touch by kicking Naruto in the face:p, so he is physical. Also if he was a ghost, why dodge and attack. :blink

[Jspot]

Madara refers to himself as alive in thought, so unless he was lying to himself, he isn't dead:

http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-397/page010.html

[porkupine]

Why're take everything so literally?

Imagine it like this: he has no body; just this chakra mirage of his body when he was alive. And he can use jutsu to interact solid objects, or he's a poltergeist.

It's tenuous, I know, but the resurrection thing for me really sells it. Why would he need a resurrection jutsu unless he's dead?

[Poisok2]

Why're take everything so literally?

Imagine it like this: he has no body; just this chakra mirage of his body when he was alive. And he can use jutsu to interact solid objects, or he's a poltergeist.

It's tenuous, I know, but the resurrection thing for me really sells it. Why would he need a resurrection jutsu unless he's dead?

He could be afraid someone killed him. Pain would be able to ressurect him if that happened. What's more, if he wanted Pain to ressurrect him because he was a ghost, why hasn't Pain done that already? Why would Madara-Tobi want to remain as a ghost and then be ressurrected later?

[porkupine]

From the way Madara put it, the Rinne Tensei was going to kill him no matter when he used it, so perhaps he was waiting for Pain to be near death.

As for suggesting it's because he's afraid someone might kill him: that's a valid alternative, sure, but it doesn't dispute my suggestion.

[Jspot]

Why shouldn't I take it literally? Unless it is a translation error, Madara clearly thinks to himself that were it not for secrets he's kept he would be dead, which means he is currently not dead, which means he is not a "ghost", as you have put it.

[Black Lagoon]

Nah, he's normal, remember Itachi's gift (Sasuke, after seeing Madara's sharingan)

[porkupine]

I've made a suggestion which takes that into account, black lagoon: like a chakra ghost, but no physical body, and more-or-less uses jutsu to interact with the world much like a poltergeist -- think Patrick Swayzee in Ghost, for example, who was able to interact with physical things in a manner akin to that of chakra.

And the distinction between being dead and being a ghost should be sufficient for Madara to think of himself as alive. And, in any case, he's not gonna go round telling everyone that he's dead now, is he?

I'm not convinced by my own argument, but I think it's a genuine possibility.

[Jspot]

And, in any case, he's not gonna go round telling everyone that he's dead now, is he?

The problem with your statement here is that, as I said in my original response to you, Madara doesn't say he's alive out loud, he thinks it to himself, which is why I said that unless Madara was lying to himself with his own, inward thoughts, then we can take that thought to be truth.


And the distinction between being dead and being a ghost should be sufficient for Madara to think of himself as alive.
That doesn't make sense. You can't be a ghost without having died.

A ghost is not a living being, and a "chakra ghost" wouldn't meet the definition of "ghost" anyway, if you were asserting that his chakra somehow still existed in the mortal world.

Madara is alive in some shape or form, and as we know, those forms can get pretty damned crazy, including a sentient, thinking heart like Sasori's, despite not having a brain, etc.

We don't know much about Madara, but we know that he, as he is now, is not dead.

[patedecarne]

What happened with Madara in the past is unknown, BUt I'm sure he's not a ghost. I can't remember which chapter, but Madara was saying that after his fight with Hashirama, people thought that he was dead, in we could even see a flashback with the shadow of Madara with bows, blades around his body.

How he survived, though, is the big problem. Of course there' some method behind it, but I'm sure he's not a ghost.

[Askia32]

What happened with Madara in the past is unknown, BUt I'm sure he's not a ghost. I can't remember which chapter, but Madara was saying that after his fight with Hashirama, people thought that he was dead, in we could even see a flashback with the shadow of Madara with bows, blades around his body.

How he survived, though, is the big problem. Of course there' some method behind it, but I'm sure he's not a ghost.

Yes, Madara is a ghost, and OMG he's right behind you!!! Watch out!!!!

Seriously, he's not a ghost.
Ghost can't do this (http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-404/page012.html)

[shiia96]

He could be that guy in the last panel.Maybe He can transport his body:notrust(its the wrinkles)

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/457/18-19/
(btw thats a really good pic of gaara.heh)


Madara isn't a ghost.:facepalm But it would be funny to see him with a ghost tail.lol...But you never know...

[porkupine]

That doesn't make sense. You can't be a ghost without having died.
... and I'm saying maybe he did die at the hands of ichidaime in the sense that his body died and he continued `life' as a chakra ghost. So it makes sense.

Him stopping Suigetsu's sword is hefty opposition to the idea, as I mentioned in the first post, but I also mentioned there a possible explanation: if, like Samehada, the giant beheader sword has chakra then he might be able to interact with it.

As I said, I'm not staunchly behind my idea or anything, but some of it seems to fit.

[lionrider]

pain was stealing all of the tailed beast to create the ultimate jutsu.

True that was the intention of pain.. But who really was pulling the strings.. It was madara dude.. never did say madara about his plans.. so lets say its presumption on the side of pain.. its his view..

and besides bijuus are more than enough a nuke.. for a country.. agree??
[hr]

Pain said that he would do this in chapter 374:

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/374/12/

(Third panel)

Yeah its says so.. but already the bijuu is more like a nuke.. besides he was not the true leader.. so i doubt.. if that was the plan also of madara..

[Askia32]

... and I'm saying maybe he did die at the hands of ichidaime in the sense that his body died and he continued `life' as a chakra ghost. So it makes sense.

Him stopping Suigetsu's sword is hefty opposition to the idea, as I mentioned in the first post, but I also mentioned there a possible explanation: if, like Samehada, the giant beheader sword has chakra then he might be able to interact with it.

As I said, I'm not staunchly behind my idea or anything, but some of it seems to fit.

Woops, didn't read your first post.

Well, here's another one for you, he kicks Naruto (http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-383/page001.html)....

[degm]

well i think that maybe madara has some kind of transfer body jutsu like orochimaru but in this case it may have something to do with the sharingan or maybe with the rinne tensei but i´m not really so sure about it, but i´m totally sure he´s not a chakra ghost cause sasuke or itachi could have seen it with their sharingan and madara can be touched/burned so he has a body.
about sasuke passing though his boby, well it maybe some sort of jutsu or something like that.

[Jspot]

Using hypothetical evidence to support a hypothetical possibility, neither of which we are ever given any reason to suspect, is not cause for you to "stand behind" your theory. Your theory has no basis. I'm not trying to shoot you down, but seriously, you have absolutely no evidence to support the claim. It is nothing but an idea, and for some reason you're clinging to it despite the counter-evidence that suggests otherwise.

When you deal with hypothetical evidence like "well this could somehow do this which leads to this being possible", you wind up with incredibly stupid ideas that people continuously say are possible simply because there has never been a specific statement to say otherwise.

This is very similar to how people were convinced that Yondaime was the Akatsuki Leader based solely upon the silhouette of Pain's hair. Absolutely no reason to suspect such a thing, but because nothing specifically says, "The Fourth is not the Akatsuki Leader", they went ahead with it anyway.

That's not how you give credibility to an idea. Stand behind it all you like, but you can't deny that there is no evidence to support it.

[Nicholas.Sama]

True that was the intention of pain.. But who really was pulling the strings.. It was madara dude.. never did say madara about his plans.. so lets say its presumption on the side of pain.. its his view..

and besides bijuus are more than enough a nuke.. for a country.. agree??
<hr noshade size="1">


Yeah its says so.. but already the bijuu is more like a nuke.. besides he was not the true leader.. so i doubt.. if that was the plan also of madara..

pain my have been a tool, but the fact that it was his plan does not change
he was the founder after all, maybe his plans complemented Madara's
that leads to my next question
Nagato founded Akatsuki. So how did Madara become the leader? Did he kick Pains ass?:tem

[demons_halo]

my question is: why did madara present himself as tobi? why did he hide his true identity inside of akatsuki? :S half of akatsuki knew who he was already?!?! konan, nagato, zetsu, itachi and eventually kisame

[Zibi234]

my question is: why did madara present himself as tobi? why did he hide his true identity inside of akatsuki? :S half of akatsuki knew who he was already?!?! konan, nagato, zetsu, itachi and eventually kisame

Think about it a little...... simply to hide his identity from outside world.... if people knew that Madara is alive than all countries would attack Akatsuki much earlier.....and that wouldnt help in Madaras plans..... if he hides himself as Tobi and pretends not to be much strong..... than he wouldnt be pin-pointed as the first to kill from all aka's..... peopel would think lets first kll the strong ones and the aka leader than we can kill the rest.....

Simply as Tobi it's much more easier to move and make plans for future...since people know that madara died and are at ease and their guard is down.... right now naruto, kakshi and danzou knows that madara is alive so they will try to do soemthing about it...

[heiky0711]

Nagato founded Akatsuki. So how did Madara become the leader? Did he kick Pains ass?:tem

Madara founded the organization, according to Itachi:
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/386/11/

and he deceived every Akatsuki members except Itachi I presumed. http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/404/01/

[Parth]

pain my have been a tool, but the fact that it was his plan does not change
he was the founder after all, maybe his plans complemented Madara's
that leads to my next question
Nagato founded Akatsuki. So how did Madara become the leader? Did he kick Pains ass?:tem

pains never lost a batle as said by konan somewhere around jiraiyas fight

[kkck]

I think pein could take madara in a fight but in the end madara was the one pulling the strings.... Kinda disappointing, I had hoped at least they were equal..

[M3J]

Madara pulling the string doesn't mean they're not equal in terms of power, or Nagato isn't superior. It could be Madara is smarter, and Nagato's goal coincides with Madara's plan. Madara's good at manipulating people, he could have manipulated Pain to listen to him.

[Mangakotlar]

In my opinion the only way pain would only follow Madara if madara's secret was that he was, inf fact Rikadou Sensei, or stole his genes and has his power. Could be in the undrawn eye.
[hr]

even shinra tensei or preta pain's absorbing ability are very difficult to do and would take a lot of time to create these

but pain has done

at the age of 10, Nagato has "a countless number of jutsu of any type" (databook III), no wonder if he is now able to use space-time ninjutsu. "any type" means literally "any type"

Minato hasn't the Rinnegan. These eyes are the most powerful doujutsu that allows the user to use all the type of chakra (all the element and spatial recomposition) and all the jutsus in the world. Be a genius like Minato is very different from have the rinnegan in terms of creating or using jutsus

and again, Madara didn't show anything that can hurt Pain

And it seemed that Pain was quite smart himself. He was also a good leader. But he fought like a revolutionary, while madara fought like a general.

[M3J]

Madara could have manipulated Pain to follow him.

[kkck]

There is something that has been bothering me for quite some time now and I want to comment on it here.

Some time ago the manga started dealing with the war subject and quite a few things about the nature of the relationship between the great nations where revealed. What I gathered was that the means to currently avoid war was for each nation to keep a stable amount of power with each other. This means that at all times every nation must have a set amount of power and an increase or decrease of said military/economic power for any of the great nations could result in war. Basically if a nation grows too large or too small it can choose to conveniently start a war to make the other nations even out. For instance, if a nation grows to large, it could choose to attack another for the sake of power or become a target of the nations which are not developing as fast.

Now, according to a few things pein said, it would seem as if one of the greatest assets that help maintain the village's amount of power is the jinchuiriki. This seems logical considering that a jinchuiriki who can control his biju could potentially have access to monstrous amounts of raw power and jutsu to back it up as seen with gaara's biju, the 4-6-8 tailed naruto, and killerbee. Basically a biju is a creature who could decimate thousands of ninja's with just one blow as is the case with the hachibi and almost happened with the leaf when the kyubi attacked.

What I find extremely weird is that even though this system exists(or existed courtesy of akatsuki), konoha for a very large period of time did not have a biju. Kishi has revealed the origins of every jinchuiriki and we know the only one konoha ever had was naruto considering the biju were handed over to other villages to maintain the balance of power. It would seem as if after the period of shodai hokage was over, konoha simply did not have a jinchuiriki. Later on came madara and minato, and konoha, which already was the strongest nation, acquired a jinchuiriki.

Now, given what we know, it would seem as if the balance of power of power was stable before the kyubi attack. But IF the balance of power was stable before konoha acquired a jinchuiriki, logically speaking, it should be completely shifted once konoha acquired a biju which incidentally is the strongest of all.

Now, it has been repeatedly stated madara was the one responsible for the attack of the village 16 years ago. Mifune in the most recent chapter also mentions the leader of akatsuki has read the times and acted accordingly. This two things lead me to believe madara has been toying to his liking with the balance of power between each country. What's more, if that's the case there is a very real chance that the kyubi attack had exactly the result intended; to give konoha a biju and completely upset the balance of powers by placing konoha on top of the ninja world. Doing such a thing would naturally bring a further lack of trust between nations and trigger a war. Later on removing the biju would cause further problems specially if konoha keeps its biju while the other nations have none.

If the acquisition of a biju for konoha was really that big of a deal, then many other manga events would make sense. For instance, the attack of the sand to konoha. It was revealed the sand attacked konoha because many missions it was supposed to have were given to the leaf village. This could have been caused because of the increased power konoha got. It was also mentioned the cloud village for some reason started collecting weapons and jutsu. An example of this would be the hyuha incident. Maybe this was triggered by the fact that konoha had mere years earlier finally acquired an incredibly powerful biju and getting a powerful KG would help even things out.

Another interesting thing could be how the ichiha incident affected the grand scheme of things. Konoha went from having 2 out of 3 doojutsu to just having one. We also know madara wanted the uchiha dead for his own purposes. Maybe removing an entire huge clan would somehow affect the balance of power in a way which would be beneficial to madara. It is very well known that the sharingan can control biju so removing it from the village could very well result in yet another shift in the balance of power in favor of everyone but konoha. In a way it would make the jinchuiriki more effecting against konoha considering one of the only known methods to completely control biju essentially disappears. It significantly increases the effectiveness of biju against konoha plus the significant reduction in military power. In a way, it allows gives other villages the opportunity to target konoha(which could also bring us back to the sand-leaf war incident).

As my analysis shows, the balance of power between nations has been essentially toyed with and manipulated by madara. What's more, the fact that konoha acquired a jinchuiriki could have been the trigger to every major event between the great nations for the last 16 years. In a way, naruto and the kyubi were used by madara to move the nations how he pleased.

I apologize for making this so long. it kinda just happened lol

[Boagrious]

Madara could have manipulated Pain to follow him.

I believe that's what happened, and Danzou was part of it as well. He killed his best friend because of him and motivated by rage and revenge he decided to go and join. Though, it appeared as if Pain and Madara were together from the start cause Madara needed Pain's abilities, so that turns things around a bit

[vintagemistakes]

Interesting read.

The primary question that popped into my head while reading this is what if Shodai sealed the Kyuubi away in a pot, shrine, or something instead of human. Since not only could he control the Kyuubi, but also because a Sharingan user was able to... Konoha decided that they didn't need to sacrifice a person(Jinchuuriki) to gain that power when they already possessed the ability to use it as a weapon?

Either way, the idea that the balance of power was disturbed is an interesting observation. So many times, we tend to look at this story in tiny snippets instead of taking a step or two back and looking at the whole.

[kkck]

It is possible shodai tried something like that but I still have my doubts about it. It is a posibility shodai did seal the kyubi elsewhere rather than on a human host but I still have my doubts. It was implied that even shodai could not completely control the kyubi which is why I would think he did not have it at all. It was also mentioned that in the past madara could 'summon" the kyubi which I would find weird if it was already sealed by hashirama.

The idea of the balance of power is not something I just randomly made up though. The concept has been brought up quite a few times in the manga(maybe not under that name) so I just elaborated on what has been shown and implied(mostly by pein). The situation also has similarities to WWI where there was a similar balance of power and things eventually simply exploded in everyones faces.

[VashisLeet]

ok here is my theory...I say mandara is a ghost...and please read it makes sense...a little:oh

sauske's chidori (a ninjutsu) went right through tobi, but the black fire was burning him, and barely stopped it. so only magic like sharingn techs can affect him, this actually affect him.

Also, Everyone just goes through tobi and he can super teleport. Ever mister plot armor sharingan couldn't figure out how he was doing it.

But, there were times where we saw him touch things...explanaition below

We have met every member of akatsuki...and none of them could make doppelgangers like the fake itachi and kisame (not even pain he was a 1 man army)

So the only 1 that leaves left is tobi. Is possible that when ever we see tobi physically interact at a location it is jsut a doppelganger.

Him being a ghost would also explain why he was pissed off that nagato wasted his phoenix down on konoha...he needed it to regain his body to enact his plans...by doing something to make him all powerful...

not really sure what the plan is actually, but i think my idea is actually plausible, what do u all think. :D

[poobert]

Well, it was stated that only 4 people could control a beast, so it seems unlikely that the beasts were given just as they are, rather than sealed away (like shukaku in his pot). imo the 9tails was in madara's possession for most of the time too.

I also thought that a mutually assured destruction thing might occur. If one country sets their tailed beast against another and vice versa. However, some of the tailed beasts are not all they are cracked up to be. Some require a host to be even slightly affective, and considering only 4 people could ever control a beast, most of them will not be very efficient fighting machines.

Finally, there is another problem. The strongest beasts were given to the strongest villages. The 8 tails, which is supremely powerful and the 9 tails, which is even better, were given to two of the strongest villages. ie those that did not need much more power.

This way I think that the beasts were not given as an ultimate balancing of power, rather as to prevent one country having a monopoly. After all, there were still wars after the beasts were divided.

[Nath Uchiha]

Interesting read. What what I tihnk is wierd is if the Jinchuriki (sp) are that important why Naruto never had any special training to become strong, he had to learn it on his own. And neither did Garra for that effect, although there is a good reason for that....he did generally kill quiet a few people :P

So I tihnk it probally has something to do with the peace time, from what we know every Jinchuriki has been trained apart from Naruto and Garra. However, this is probally because judging from their ages when they became one they were in hectic times

[Kinmagan Gil]

ok here is my theory...I say mandara is a ghost...and please read it makes sense...a little:oh

sauske's chidori (a ninjutsu) went right through tobi, but the black fire was burning him, and barely stopped it. so only magic like sharingn techs can affect him, this actually affect him.

Also, Everyone just goes through tobi and he can super teleport. Ever mister plot armor sharingan couldn't figure out how he was doing it.

But, there were times where we saw him touch things...explanaition below

We have met every member of akatsuki...and none of them could make doppelgangers like the fake itachi and kisame (not even pain he was a 1 man army)

So the only 1 that leaves left is tobi. Is possible that when ever we see tobi physically interact at a location it is jsut a doppelganger.

Him being a ghost would also explain why he was pissed off that nagato wasted his phoenix down on konoha...he needed it to regain his body to enact his plans...by doing something to make him all powerful...

not really sure what the plan is actually, but i think my idea is actually plausible, what do u all think. :D

Anything is possible. He could very well be a spirit. He has very ghostlike abilities, yes, and he seems obsessed with regaining whatever it is he lost, which may be a physical body. The only holes are that he stopped Suigetsu's sword, and ghosts aren't blocking swords these days!

[porkupine]

It is nothing but an idea, and for some reason you're clinging to it despite the counter-evidence that suggests otherwise.
Did you even read any of my posts? I've repeatedly said that it's just an idea, and I'm not staunchly behind it. Furthermore, your suggestion that there is no evidence for it is wrong:

1. It's widely-regarded as fact that he died at the hands of the first hokage.
2. People phase through him as if he isn't there.

So: he apparently died, but he exists now and people phase through him. It's evidence. There is also evidence against too, but the counter-claims be argued away fairly easily too. Furthermore, Kishi has shown himself time and again to be in-bed with cliches, and ghosts are the biggest fiction cliche of all time.

I acknowledge that it's not the best idea ever, but you just insulted the manner in which I argue, and that's not fair game.

[kkck]

For one thing, as I noted in my initial post, it would appear konoha did not have a jinchuiriki until minato caught the kyubi(this is highly debatable but out of lack of evidence I am going to asume konoha did not have one until proven otherwise or sufficient evidence appears). Using a biju also takes time, jutsu and skills. I konoha did not have the kyubi before, it would make sense no one really knows how to train a jinchuiriki. The number of jinchuiriki has never been more than 9 at a time and the power of a biju is extremely hard to control. It is also very possible the method to use such a power is left for each jinchuiriki to find out. Note when danzou mentioned the people who could truly control biju he did not mention most of the jinchuiriki, just a couple of them.

[Franckie]

Several problems exist to your theory:

1: Konoha was already considered the "strongest" village before they even got a jinchuuriki. When they finally got a jinchuuriki, it took sixteen years for said jinchuuriki to become an actual threat against the real elite of this series.

2: Too much risk. Sealing the Kyuubi into a human means Madara no longer has control over his greatest asset, Kyuubi. He also had no guarantee that Naruto would live long enough for Akatsuki to remove the Kyuubi from within him.

3: Madara is Sasuke-centric villain 3.0. In other words, Madara's concern with Sasuke and Konoha borders obsession, meaning he's not too concerned with other matters to attend to.


Interesting read. What what I tihnk is wierd is if the Jinchuriki (sp) are that important why Naruto never had any special training to become strong, he had to learn it on his own. And neither did Garra for that effect, although there is a good reason for that....he did generally kill quiet a few people :P

So I tihnk it probally has something to do with the peace time, from what we know every Jinchuriki has been trained apart from Naruto and Garra. However, this is probally because judging from their ages when they became one they were in hectic times

Gaara was trained by his father and Naruto was trained by the Academy. It's just that Naruto's training was vastly inferior to what Gaara and the other jinchuuriki would have received.

[street_san]

Really interesting theory. But just like Frankie said: Konoha was already the strongest nation.

Madara said that the 2 strongest clan were Senju and Uchiha...and they were the one who built Konoha. Plus, they had 2 of the 4 people who were able to control all the bijuus. The 1st and Madara.

I think that if they had kept one for themself...this could've been a major problem do to their superiority. The balance of power as u said wouldn't be equal. Konoha would've been too strong for the rest of the nations. And so, giving all the bijuus to others was a good thing. And plus, with the 1st Hokage and Madara in town, if any country tried to attack konoha with a bijuu...they would be ready to strike back.

But...when the 1st died and Madara left, they lost a great amount of power. The two people who were able to control those monsters weren't in the country no more. Even though it is only two people...the balance of power completly change. Konoha was now vulnerable against a Bijuu attack. Unless someone manage to seal it away or to control the Bijuu.

And this is what happen. The 4th was able to seal it away...and by doing that, he saved Konoha but gave to Konoha a huge amount of power, re-organizing the balance of power. Come to think of it...Madara did a pretty good thing by attacking Konoha with the Nine-Tail xD.

[Boagrious]

Have anyone noticed that we didn't know who the 1st Hokage give the 9-tailed beast to or if he ever had control of that beast. The necklace is proof that he did have control over the 9-tailed beast and Konoha may have kept it. The reason for saying this is because the 1st Hokage's necklace was handed down through the family.

I believe that the 9-tailed beast was lost after the fight with the 1st Hokage and Madara. If not then, it might have been stolen from Konoha when the 2nd Hokage was in power. So how Madara got his hand on it. I thing the 9-tailed beast was sealed in a ninja. That ninja was being controlled by Madara and he forced the jinjuuriki to transform.

Remember that Jiraiya mentioned that when Naruto transformed with the 5 tailes, the charka started to consume his body and if it continued Naruto will be killed as a result. Jiraiya then created the surpress seal. So, as a result of the forced transformation by Madara, the jinjuuriki was consumed when all 9 tailes came out. The fox remembered the sinister charka which was Madara's because of all the hate he had for Konoha.

So Madara was looking for a way to get back at Konoha even more now after the 4th Hokage sealed part of the 9-tailed beast into his own son, Naruto. Madara was angry with the Uchiha clan for ignoring him and calling him a mad-man and trouble maker. Madara already had the Mangekyou Sharingan when he fought the 1st Hokage. Madara was already an immortal when he fought the 1st Hokage and that is why he is alive today.

Itachi went searching for Madara and asked him to help eliminate the Uchiha clan. With Madara's power he could have done it on his own. Maybe, he already had the makings of Akatsuki going on and wanted Itachi to join. I think that the Elders already knew that Madara was still alive. Jiraiya thought so and I think he is the one that informed the 3rd Hokage and the in turn the elders.

Madara is a very complex character in the Naruto story! Damn!

[kkck]

Several problems exist to your theory:

1: Konoha was already considered the "strongest" village before they even got a jinchuuriki. When they finally got a jinchuuriki, it took sixteen years for said jinchuuriki to become an actual threat against the real elite of this series.

2: Too much risk. Sealing the Kyuubi into a human means Madara no longer has control over his greatest asset, Kyuubi. He also had no guarantee that Naruto would live long enough for Akatsuki to remove the Kyuubi from within him.

3: Madara is Sasuke-centric villain 3.0. In other words, Madara's concern with Sasuke and Konoha borders obsession, meaning he's not too concerned with other matters to attend to.



Gaara was trained by his father and Naruto was trained by the Academy. It's just that Naruto's training was vastly inferior to what Gaara and the other jinchuuriki would have received.

1.- I don't think that really conflicts with the theory though. Even though it will take time for konoha to fully develop the host, fact is that they didn't use to have one and moments later they had one. Not to mention most jinchuiriki seemed to be rather young when naruto became a host(killerb was a kid, gaara wasn't born and given the artbook most host were either kids or baby's when naruto became a host). As you mentioned, konoha was already the strongest before the host, getting one is bound to create tension which would only increase in the long run(even today, the slight mention of a country finally developing nuclear bombs or acquiring a couple causes extreme tension).

2.- I did mention madara could have had something to gain from it though. If madara really did plan for such a thing(he could have thought both destroying konoha or giving them a host worked for his plans of throwing of the balance of power), he had everything to gain from giving konoha a host. Not to mention he already had a powerful organization ready to capture them all. The tension created by konoha's acquisition of the host could very well make it easier for other nations to increase their fear of war. That in itself would be enough reason for other nations to hire akatsuki.

3.- Madara is not a sasuke-centric or konoha-centric villain. He has use for him but as shown recently he is very well willing to kill him should he betray him. Also, madara has been behind akatsuki, was at some point behind the leadership in the mist village, he manipulated pein who in turn had control over amekagure. He has had more than influential control over many villages. Even mifune stated akatsuki has read the times and acted accordingly, which is why the kages are where they are now.

[Thabor]

Its an interesting theory, but I think it's lacking in a couple areas..

First, Madara wouldn't need to strengthen Konoha to unbalance things. Causing damage to the village would have been more likely to lead to war than making them stronger. Making them stronger hurts the balance, but it also would make the other villages less willing to confront them.

Second, lives were lost.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/1/01/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/1/22/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/1/31/

Iruka's parents, and probably many others were killed before the Kyubi was sealed. The fourth was killed as a result of the sealing. So it wasn't a simple gain in power. It might even have been a crippling loss in power if it weren't compensated by the gain of a Jinchuuriki.

We already know that just the loss the Hokage and a few other nin was a larger enough shift that Konoha had to be concerned with maintaining a show of strength or risk getting attacked.


So I'd have to say that the implication that Madara intended Konoha to gain a Jinchuuriki it probably just giving him too much credit.


It was interesting re-reading some of the first chapter.. I don't think I realized before that information on the Reaper Death Seal, and unsealing the fox are recorded in the scroll from the first episode...

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/1/39/

That actually could add some weight to Mizuki's actions.. We know he associated with Orochimaru. And Orochimaru was still potentially associated with Akatsuki and Madara at that time. It would be interesting if Madara wanted the scroll to learn more about the seal so he properly remove the Kyubi. As things stand, with its power split he may need Naruto to recover the other half of its power before Madara's goal can be realized.

[kkck]

Mizuke associated with oro?? I am pretty sure that was non cannon filler lol.

The thing about the unbalanced powers is the type of tension they cause. if konoha got stronger, then konoha gets leverage on other nations plus in the eyes of others an attack becomes more plausible. In a way it also causes konoha to become a target of other nations though considering they will be looking for ways to shift the power back and become stronger. If konoha gets weaker, it is much more likely to become a target, which esentially drives konoha to look for more power. Basically if a nation gets stronger, others feel like targets while if it gets weaker it becomes a target for other nations. The hyuga incident and the konoha vs sand/sound war would be a good example of those tensions. When the sand got weaker, it formed an alliance with the sound to destroy konoha. When konoha got stronger, kumo took every possible mean to try an acquire new techniques, in this case a KG.

What would also be relevant is how the loss of the villagers compares with the acquisition of a jinchuiriki. The material damage caused by the fox can be repaired with time, and also the monetary cost. In military terms a jinchuiriki, specially the 9tails, is a walking nuke which can decimate extremely large areas in minutes or even seconds(chakra balls). In that sense, I would think konoha got militarily stronger after the acquisition of the biju(it is true naruto can't control the power of his biju but in the eyes of other nations konoha did acquired a walking sentient nuke).

[Franckie]

1.- I don't think that really conflicts with the theory though. Even though it will take time for konoha to fully develop the host, fact is that they didn't use to have one and moments later they had one. Not to mention most jinchuiriki seemed to be rather young when naruto became a host(killerb was a kid, gaara wasn't born and given the artbook most host were either kids or baby's when naruto became a host). As you mentioned, konoha was already the strongest before the host, getting one is bound to create tension which would only increase in the long run(even today, the slight mention of a country finally developing nuclear bombs or acquiring a couple causes extreme tension).

It conflicts a great deal with your theory. Konoha is the epicenter of power, yet they lacked a jinchuuriki for many years. Furthermore, when they finally got their hands on a jinchuuriki, that jinchuuriki was useless for 16 years. Konoha, for years, had been handling countries quite well, in your own terms, who possessed the bomb.


2.- I did mention madara could have had something to gain from it though. If madara really did plan for such a thing(he could have thought both destroying konoha or giving them a host worked for his plans of throwing of the balance of power), he had everything to gain from giving konoha a host. Not to mention he already had a powerful organization ready to capture them all. The tension created by konoha's acquisition of the host could very well make it easier for other nations to increase their fear of war. That in itself would be enough reason for other nations to hire akatsuki.

Like I said - It's too much of a gamble. Madara is not prescient. He had no guarantee that Naruto would be alive and well when it came to collect bijuu, especially with Naruto's strength only now being worth mentioning. It also doesn't make any sense for Madara to give Konoha such an asset. Ridding himself of his Kyuubi-controlling power would greatly depower Madara. Furthermore, one of Madara's key goals is Konoha's total annihalation. Giving Konoha such an asset could potentially backfire on him.


3.- Madara is not a sasuke-centric or konoha-centric villain. He has use for him but as shown recently he is very well willing to kill him should he betray him. Also, madara has been behind akatsuki, was at some point behind the leadership in the mist village, he manipulated pein who in turn had control over amekagure. He has had more than influential control over many villages. Even mifune stated akatsuki has read the times and acted accordingly, which is why the kages are where they are now.

How is Madara not a Sasuke-centric villain? The first word out of his mouth dealt with Sasuke. The reason Madara joined Akatsuki under the Tobi guise was to locate, observe, and acquire Sasuke. Kakashi, Itachi, Kyuubi, and Madara himself have made comparisons between the two characters. Madara also doesn't care how Akatsuki is now lost most of its members since he finally has Sasuke on his side. Furthermore, why did Madara let Naruto out of his grasp without hesitation? It's because Sasuke was in a pinch. Lastly, Madara has done nothing thus far except milk off of Sasuke's plotline.

How is Madara not a Konoha-centric villain? He originates from Konoha. He's attacked Konoha twice before. He helped Itachi wipe out one of Konoha's strongest assets, the Uchiha Clan, for revenge. After Itachi's death, Madara told Zetsu that he can finally move on towards targeting Konoha. Oh, and several characters have stated that he'll attack the village (again!) in the near future.

Control over Akatsuki? It turns out the organization was cofounded, and nobody knew about Madara for years. As far as the other members were concerned, Pein was the head-honcho, especially with the fact Pein can boast of "invincibility" while Madara could not. Also, Madara only became recently active in order to ensure Sasuke's revelence to current events. Control over Pein? What control? Pein had no fear of the man. There's also no reason to believe Madara to be stronger than him since both characters possess virtually the same identical hype. The only reason the two had yet to betray each other is because both characters were still useful to each other. Control over the Mist Village? The Godaime Mizukage shows disdain for the practices for her predecessors, and it's questionable if Madara is still active in the village.


Its an interesting theory, but I think it's lacking in a couple areas..

First, Madara wouldn't need to strengthen Konoha to unbalance things. Causing damage to the village would have been more likely to lead to war than making them stronger. Making them stronger hurts the balance, but it also would make the other villages less willing to confront them.

Second, lives were lost.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/1/01/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/1/22/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/1/31/

Iruka's parents, and probably many others were killed before the Kyubi was sealed. The fourth was killed as a result of the sealing. So it wasn't a simple gain in power. It might even have been a crippling loss in power if it weren't compensated by the gain of a Jinchuuriki.

We already know that just the loss the Hokage and a few other nin was a larger enough shift that Konoha had to be concerned with maintaining a show of strength or risk getting attacked.


So I'd have to say that the implication that Madara intended Konoha to gain a Jinchuuriki it probably just giving him too much credit.


It was interesting re-reading some of the first chapter.. I don't think I realized before that information on the Reaper Death Seal, and unsealing the fox are recorded in the scroll from the first episode...

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/1/39/

That actually could add some weight to Mizuki's actions.. We know he associated with Orochimaru. And Orochimaru was still potentially associated with Akatsuki and Madara at that time. It would be interesting if Madara wanted the scroll to learn more about the seal so he properly remove the Kyubi. As things stand, with its power split he may need Naruto to recover the other half of its power before Madara's goal can be realized.
There's another problem with the OP's theory. You would have to assume that Madara was originally planned at the very beginning of the series, which is clearly not the case. The villain who was originally intended to be Naruto's archnemesis was Orochimaru. If Kishi had anyone in mind about being originally responsible for the Kyuubi attack, it would have been Oro.

[Thabor]

Mizuke associated with oro?? I am pretty sure that was non cannon filler lol.

Whoops.. You're right. Sorry, hard to keep everything straight sometimes since I've watched all the anime as well as reading the entire manga.



The thing about the unbalanced powers is the type of tension they cause. if konoha got stronger, then konoha gets leverage on other nations plus in the eyes of others an attack becomes more plausible. In a way it also causes konoha to become a target of other nations though considering they will be looking for ways to shift the power back and become stronger. If konoha gets weaker, it is much more likely to become a target, which esentially drives konoha to look for more power. Basically if a nation gets stronger, others feel like targets while if it gets weaker it becomes a target for other nations. The hyuga incident and the konoha vs sand/sound war would be a good example of those tensions. When the sand got weaker, it formed an alliance with the sound to destroy konoha. When konoha got stronger, kumo took every possible mean to try an acquire new techniques, in this case a KG.

Some amount of that is inevitable anyway. Balances of that sort are never perfect, and different factions will always be seeking an advantage. The Chuunin exam was intended as an outlet for the mild shifts by allowing the villages to deal damage to each other in a controlled way without repercussions.



What would also be relevant is how the loss of the villagers compares with the acquisition of a jinchuiriki. The material damage caused by the fox can be repaired with time, and also the monetary cost. In military terms a jinchuiriki, specially the 9tails, is a walking nuke which can decimate extremely large areas in minutes or even seconds(chakra balls). In that sense, I would think konoha got militarily stronger after the acquisition of the biju(it is true naruto can't control the power of his biju but in the eyes of other nations konoha did acquired a walking sentient nuke).

I consider it to be a loss. Yondaime was more valuable than the Kyubi. If Madara hadn't been involved he would probably still be alive. Even looking at it without knowing about Madara you would consider them at least a draw. And then pile the other losses on top of that.

Still I can see how others might value things differently.

[ameya730]

awesome post man this puts the whole story of the manga in a better prespective

i think that after the fight between the first hokage and madara the kyubbi was sealed and the seal was guarded by the uchiha clan because after the first hokage the only ones who could control the kyubbi were the uchiha hence once the kyubbi attacked konoha 16 years ago the suspicion was pointed towards uchiha

that was probably why konoha was considered so powerful because the other nations knew that they had the strongest bijuu sealed up and not only could they release it anytime they wanted but they could also control it because they had the sharingan

madara somehow managed to release the kyubbi but the 4th hokage screwed up madara's plans by sealing the kyubbi in naruto because of which he could no longer control it

i guess then madara decided to eliminate the uchiha so that he could be the only one to control the kyubbi once it was extracted from naruto and to do so formed the akatsuki

[kkck]

It conflicts a great deal with your theory. Konoha is the epicenter of power, yet they lacked a jinchuuriki for many years. Furthermore, when they finally got their hands on a jinchuuriki, that jinchuuriki was useless for 16 years. Konoha, for years, had been handling countries quite well, in your own terms, who possessed the bomb.
I still would think just getting the jinchuiriki could create tension between nations. If konoha could already handle the other nations without a jinchuiriki, then other nations were mere years away from losing the only leverage they had with konoha. They probably also knew that a jinchuiriki does not have to be old to use the power of the biju. Just look at gaara, just by falling sleep he could let the full power of his biju out(although without control). To use such a power the sand simply had to make gaara fall sleep in the correct place(which they intended to do). I just can't believe konoha would get a host and the response from other nations will be "no biggie, there is no guarantee he will live or that he will be able to control the power of the freaking 9tails". If anything the appropiate response should be "crap, konoha has a brand new weapon of war. And the got the ninetails at that, out measly 1-8 tailed bitches can't compare(this part is exaggeration but I think you get my point)".




Like I said - It's too much of a gamble. Madara is not prescient. He had no guarantee that Naruto would be alive and well when it came to collect bijuu, especially with Naruto's strength only now being worth mentioning. It also doesn't make any sense for Madara to give Konoha such an asset. Ridding himself of his Kyuubi-controlling power would greatly depower Madara. Furthermore, one of Madara's key goals is Konoha's total annihalation. Giving Konoha such an asset could potentially backfire on him.
The plan had it's risk, that is true but it is not enough to say madara would not try it. He already has been stated to be a monster in many ways and his foresight is something that has been appreciated even by the kages. If madara felt he had something to gain from doing what he did, I see no reason for him not to do it. It is possible madara initially intended to destroy konoha with the kyubi on the second and is merely doing the best he can with what resulted after his failure though. I do find it a little simplistic that madara just jumped into konoha with the fox though.




How is Madara not a Sasuke-centric villain? The first word out of his mouth dealt with Sasuke. The reason Madara joined Akatsuki under the Tobi guise was to locate, observe, and acquire Sasuke. Kakashi, Itachi, Kyuubi, and Madara himself have made comparisons between the two characters. Madara also doesn't care how Akatsuki is now lost most of its members since he finally has Sasuke on his side. Furthermore, why did Madara let Naruto out of his grasp without hesitation? It's because Sasuke was in a pinch. Lastly, Madara has done nothing thus far except milk off of Sasuke's plotline.

How is Madara not a Konoha-centric villain? He originates from Konoha. He's attacked Konoha twice before. He helped Itachi wipe out one of Konoha's strongest assets, the Uchiha Clan, for revenge. After Itachi's death, Madara told Zetsu that he can finally move on towards targeting Konoha. Oh, and several characters have stated that he'll attack the village (again!) in the near future.

Control over Akatsuki? It turns out the organization was cofounded, and nobody knew about Madara for years. As far as the other members were concerned, Pein was the head-honcho, especially with the fact Pein can boast of "invincibility" while Madara could not. Also, Madara only became recently active in order to ensure Sasuke's revelence to current events. Control over Pein? What control? Pein had no fear of the man. There's also no reason to believe Madara to be stronger than him since both characters possess virtually the same identical hype. The only reason the two had yet to betray each other is because both characters were still useful to each other. Control over the Mist Village? The Godaime Mizukage shows disdain for the practices for her predecessors, and it's questionable if Madara is still active in the village.


There's another problem with the OP's theory. You would have to assume that Madara was originally planned at the very beginning of the series, which is clearly not the case. The villain who was originally intended to be Naruto's archnemesis was Orochimaru. If Kishi had anyone in mind about being originally responsible for the Kyuubi attack, it would have been Oro.

Madara was clearly the one pulling the strings though. Madara has even been seen ordering pein around; remember he was the guy who ORDERED pein to capture the kyubi and that failure will not be tolerated. What the other members knew or didn't know of madara was not important, as long as pein listened to madara, madara had complete control over akatsuki.

Even if madara's objective is exclusively the destruction of konoha, I would think that saying he is konoha centric is overly simplifying things. One way or the other the guy has been leading the world in the direction he thought was fitting by manipulating other nations.

It is possible madara no longer has control over the most, but at this point it is a fact that he had complete control over it for god knows how long.

We have no way of knowing when exactly madara was concieved, that is true. If my theory is correct though, it would not change anything given that kishi could just attribute him certain things and be done with it.

[Franckie]

I still would think just getting the jinchuiriki could create tension between nations. If konoha could already handle the other nations without a jinchuiriki, then other nations were mere years away from losing the only leverage they had with konoha. They probably also knew that a jinchuiriki does not have to be old to use the power of the biju. Just look at gaara, just by falling sleep he could let the full power of his biju out(although without control). To use such a power the sand simply had to make gaara fall sleep in the correct place(which they intended to do). I just can't believe konoha would get a host and the response from other nations will be "no biggie, there is no guarantee he will live or that he will be able to control the power of the freaking 9tails". If anything the appropiate response should be "crap, konoha has a brand new weapon of war. And the got the ninetails at that, out measly 1-8 tailed bitches can't compare(this part is exaggeration but I think you get my point)".

Jinchuuriki have existed as long as Konoha has been around, yet Konoha is still top-dog despite the fact that it's only now they have a jinchuuriki. Obviously the bijuu were simply one of many mitigating factors which determine the balance of power.

When the other villages would have learned about Naruto, they would go "No biggie, he's a joke". That fact wouldn't change even if Naruto could fully unleash the Kyuubi. Bijuu are too stupid to make effective use of their power, and countries had developed various means to ensnare them.

Madara also took no action to inform the other villages about Naruto's existance. Sunagakure? Chiyo expressed shock to learning about Naruto being the Kyuubi jinchuuriki. Kumogakure? Same thing. That's at least two villages that had no knowledge about Naruto's secret.


The plan had it's risk, that is true but it is not enough to say madara would not try it. He already has been stated to be a monster in many ways and his foresight is something that has been appreciated even by the kages. If madara felt he had something to gain from doing what he did, I see no reason for him not to do it. It is possible madara initially intended to destroy konoha with the kyubi on the second and is merely doing the best he can with what resulted after his failure though. I do find it a little simplistic that madara just jumped into konoha with the fox though.

It's too risky. Madara also never did anything to ensure Naruto's safety. Also, if it was Madara's intention to give Konoha such a valuable asset, why would he tolerate Naruto being a weakling for sixteen straight years?

Also, if it's Madara's interest to shift the balance of power even more so into Konoha's favor, why would he help Itachi wipe out one of Konoha's "strongest" assets, the Uchiha Clan? That's counter-productive.


Madara was clearly the one pulling the strings though. Madara has even been seen ordering pein around; remember he was the guy who ORDERED pein to capture the kyubi and that failure will not be tolerated. What the other members knew or didn't know of madara was not important, as long as pein listened to madara, madara had complete control over akatsuki.

Each member of Akatsuki ally with each other for the sole purpose of advancing their own personal agenda. In each member's eyes, their "comrades" are nothing more than mere pawns to advance their own agenda. Members also have a habit of leaving the organization with little care for the consequences. Oro, Konan, and Sasuke all ditched the organization when they no longer found it useful without a moment's hesitation.

Sure, Madara told Pein to capture the Kyuubi. You're forgetting one important fact though: It's Pein's decision to follow the "order" or not. Also, if the members were forced to choose between following Pein and following Madara, who would they choose?

Answer: The additional members will ally with the person who has a higher probability of enabling said member to accomplish their own agenda, and that person would be Pein. Pein's DB profile elaborates as to why the discourteous, self-centered, arrogant missing-nin listen when Pein speaks. Besides his vast charisma, he can boast of "invincibility". The members have also worked with him for years. These are traits which Madara lacks.


Even if madara's objective is exclusively the destruction of konoha, I would think that saying he is konoha centric is overly simplifying things. One way or the other the guy has been leading the world in the direction he thought was fitting by manipulating other nations.

Saying Madara is not a Konoha-centric villain when one of his exclusive goals happens to be the destruction of Konoha is a vast understatement.

He hasn't done anything in regards to leading the world into instability. 7 of the 9 bijuu were caught and sealed while under Pein's watch. Pein also takes credit for the capture of the bijuu in the short conversation he had with Tsunade. In regards to Madara, he had a chance to destabilize things with the Hachibi, and we all know how that went. Also, all 5 Kages now know about Madara's existance.


It is possible madara no longer has control over the most, but at this point it is a fact that he had complete control over it for god knows how long.
Madara has no great leadership ability. The only thing Madara has been shown to possess is great battle prowess. He and his brother stumbled upon the Mangekyou Sharingan, an incredible power-up, and led the clan in following suit. Oh, sure, Madara is an incredible shinobi and could likely catapult any organization be it team, clan or village to the top...

...but he has shown nothing in the ways of keeping it there. The Uchiha Clan that he rose from obscurity? He'd driven them to the point where they sick of warfare and the death of their kin. Kirigakure? An isolated island of murderers most of whom we know of as renegades and traitors. Have we actually met one shinobi loyal to Kirigakure? Sure, Kisame seems loyal to Madara, but you'll notice that when "Tobi" died, Kisame was the only one kept in the dark.

Madara is an excellent warlord and fighter, but has no concept of how to exist outside of conflict.


We have no way of knowing when exactly madara was concieved, that is true. If my theory is correct though, it would not change anything given that kishi could just attribute him certain things and be done with it.
Kishimoto: "Giving away Madara's greatest asset to the village he loathes, making no attempt to inform the other villages about Naruto's existance, taking no steps to ensure Naruto's safety, and doing nothing about the fact Naruto was a total wimp for 16 years is all part of some elaborate plan for Madara to make the other villages subordinate to the village he plans on eradicating."

The only thing I can say about this is, "Yay for making your manga make sense!"

[hanayuri]

he;s not a ghost but maybe a genjutsu type of jutsu where his real body is elsewhere hiding.

[dumbboy]

Do any of you guys think that Madara has the power to influence mind like those of Uchiha Shinshui? It would definitely make a whole lot of sense to the plot and explain many things. 4th Mizukage being controlled, how he get Pain and Sasuke to do his bidding..etc

[kkck]

Do any of you guys think that Madara has the power to influence mind like those of Uchiha Shinshui? It would definitely make a whole lot of sense to the plot and explain many things. 4th Mizukage being controlled, how he get Pain and Sasuke to do his bidding..etc

I would think someone as madara has such a power considering the mastery he has been implied to have with the sharingan. Also, note this:

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/15/12-13/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/26/14/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/26/15/

The technique danzo used seems to be the same kakashi used on zabuza in the past.

[DEATHBOTT]

tobi can teleport and probably knows the truth about nagato (cripple) so he could teleport behind him and stab him in the back.

[Franckie]

I've gone back through previous chapters and I'm completely dumbfounded for the reason(s) behind the Pein-Madara alliance. Sure, both Pein and Madara shared an interest in collecting bijuu and destroying Konoha, but I don't see how Madara gaining Sasuke's Sharinguns would have helped Pein develop the kinjutsu he so badly wanted to create (screw the faggotry that is the scene where Nagato converts, it's a blatant usage of deus ex machina). Considering Pein's ability to utilize any jutsu, he would have had his own means of controlling a bijuu's power, meaning the Sharingan's ability to control bijuu isn't needed. Furthermore, Pein doesn't need Madara's help to acquire bijuu. Pein provided the bijuu statue, developed the extraction jutsu, and 7 of the 9 bijuu were caught under his watch. Madara's "great" contribution to the Akatsuki storyline is persuading Sasuke to ally with the organization... Only to have Sasuke change his mind...

I'm also wondering the exact point behind Madara's character. Thus far, he hasn't done anything except milk off of Sasuke's plotline and act as nothing more than a plot device to ensure Sasuke's relevency to the current storyline. I'm hoping Kishi does something about this problem here eventually in order to make a half-decent attempt to hide the fact that Madara was retroactively written into the story.


Madara could have manipulated Pain to follow him.
Madara didn't manipulate anyone. Both characters allied with each other since they shared similar interests. This is a trait of Akatsuki that is repeatedly emphasized such as Pein's conversation with Hidan in chapter 329.

[DEATHBOTT]

I've gone back through previous chapters and I'm completely dumbfounded for the reason(s) behind the Pein-Madara alliance. Sure, both Pein and Madara shared an interest in collecting bijuu and destroying Konoha, but I don't see how Madara gaining Sasuke's Sharinguns would have helped Pein develop the kinjutsu he so badly wanted to create (screw the faggotry that is the scene where Nagato converts, it's a blatant usage of deus ex machina). Considering Pein's ability to utilize any jutsu, he would have had his own means of controlling a bijuu's power, meaning the Sharingan's ability to control bijuu isn't needed. Furthermore, Pein doesn't need Madara's help to acquire bijuu. Pein provided the bijuu statue, developed the extraction jutsu, and 7 of the 9 bijuu were caught under his watch. Madara's "great" contribution to the Akatsuki storyline is persuading Sasuke to ally with the organization... Only to have Sasuke change his mind...

I'm also wondering the exact point behind Madara's character. Thus far, he hasn't done anything except milk off of Sasuke's plotline and act as nothing more than a plot device to ensure Sasuke's relevency to the current storyline. I'm hoping Kishi does something about this problem here eventually in order to make a half-decent attempt to hide the fact that Madara was retroactively written into the story.


Madara didn't manipulate anyone. Both characters allied with each other since they shared similar interests. This is a trait of Akatsuki that is repeatedly emphasized such as Pein's conversation with Hidan in chapter 329.

i think that tobis actions behind the scenes of the akatsuki have not fully been explored and his relationship with nagato will be revealed in time including who was the top dog and if they were working togather or tobi was just controlling nagato.

[thornofcarrion]

My opinion, I don't think Nagato was controlled by Madara. Their relationship was based on mutual benefits. We know how Nagato had the world peace vision, Madara must have manipulated him to believe that cooperating with him, Nagato can achieve his goals. I fail to believe Nagato joined him or followed him because he was weaker than him. He may have been but we can't say it for sure.

[Franckie]

i think that tobis actions behind the scenes of the akatsuki have not fully been explored and his relationship with nagato will be revealed in time including who was the top dog and if they were working togather or tobi was just controlling nagato.

I don't see how "Tobi was just controlling Nagato" holds up considering how Pein did everything out of his own free will.

[kkck]

I don't see how "Tobi was just controlling Nagato" holds up considering how Pein did everything out of his own free will.

Controllng is ot the right word for it. The proper word would be manipulating. Nagato was being manipulated by madara to his own ends. That much should be certain by now.

[Weapon_X]

I think pein could take madara in a fight but in the end madara was the one pulling the strings.... Kinda disappointing, I had hoped at least they were equal..

What makes you so sure that Pain could have taken Madara in a fight? What has Pain got in his arsenal that could take Madara on? As far as I know, and it's a manga fact, Madara can't be touched by anyone.
[hr]

I've gone back through previous chapters and I'm completely dumbfounded for the reason(s) behind the Pein-Madara alliance. Sure, both Pein and Madara shared an interest in collecting bijuu and destroying Konoha, but I don't see how Madara gaining Sasuke's Sharinguns would have helped Pein develop the kinjutsu he so badly wanted to create (screw the faggotry that is the scene where Nagato converts, it's a blatant usage of deus ex machina). Considering Pein's ability to utilize any jutsu, he would have had his own means of controlling a bijuu's power, meaning the Sharingan's ability to control bijuu isn't needed. Furthermore, Pein doesn't need Madara's help to acquire bijuu. Pein provided the bijuu statue, developed the extraction jutsu, and 7 of the 9 bijuu were caught under his watch. Madara's "great" contribution to the Akatsuki storyline is persuading Sasuke to ally with the organization... Only to have Sasuke change his mind...

I'm also wondering the exact point behind Madara's character. Thus far, he hasn't done anything except milk off of Sasuke's plotline and act as nothing more than a plot device to ensure Sasuke's relevency to the current storyline. I'm hoping Kishi does something about this problem here eventually in order to make a half-decent attempt to hide the fact that Madara was retroactively written into the story.


Madara didn't manipulate anyone. Both characters allied with each other since they shared similar interests. This is a trait of Akatsuki that is repeatedly emphasized such as Pein's conversation with Hidan in chapter 329.

It doesn't matter. Madara was the true leader, he was the boss. He was higher then Negato, simple as. Madara was the one giving orders to him, I didn't see Negato giving orders to Madara about capturing any Biju. Why do all the work when your pawns and subordinates will do it for you? To Madara, everyone is a pawn to him at the end of the day...he uses them for his own gain. Other Akatsuki members didn't know they were being manipulated, Madara had them used as pawns all along. As long as he gets the Biju, Sasori,Deidara,Hidan,Kakazu,Itachi,Negato, Konan don't matter to him. He got rid of Itachi through other means, sure he could have gotten rid of any of them if he wanted to but that would be pointless. He made sure that both sides get the damage, his own men die as well as the opposing side is also damaged. That's how Madara deals.

He never had a relationship with Negato. Negato was always a pawn to him to use the Gedo Mazo.

[kkck]

What makes you so sure that Pain could have taken Madara in a fight? What has Pain got in his arsenal that could take Madara on? As far as I know, and it's a manga fact, Madara can't be touched by anyone.

How about several nuke-like techniques and practically no blind spots given that he has 6-7 pairs of eyes? Not to mention nagata can fght at all ranges perfectly. Also, when I said that I was talking about the six bodies, not the real one.

[Weapon_X]

How about several nuke-like techniques and practically no blind spots given that he has 6-7 pairs of eyes? Not to mention nagata can fght at all ranges perfectly. Also, when I said that I was talking about the six bodies, not the real one.

It doesn't matter if he has the Rin'negan. Madara cannot be touched whatsoever. Every sneak attack which has been pulled on him as failed and been humiliated by the pimp. Amaterasu,Chidori,Sasuke trying to slice him,Rasengan, whatever, nothing can touch him. And he does this effortlessly, don't think that this is only Madara's ability. He has fooled everyone by using this one ability. This ability may seem like an S-rank ability to everyone but to Madara it's like a D-rank to him.

No one in the manga is able to match up to Madara.

[DEATHBOTT]

but madara could just teleport to where the real nagato is and stab him in the face. it doesnt matter if the six paths could beat him, which i dont think they could, as long as he can teleport the real nagato is in his reach.

[M3J]

I've gone back through previous chapters and I'm completely dumbfounded for the reason(s) behind the Pein-Madara alliance. Sure, both Pein and Madara shared an interest in collecting bijuu and destroying Konoha, but I don't see how Madara gaining Sasuke's Sharinguns would have helped Pein develop the kinjutsu he so badly wanted to create (screw the faggotry that is the scene where Nagato converts, it's a blatant usage of deus ex machina). Considering Pein's ability to utilize any jutsu, he would have had his own means of controlling a bijuu's power, meaning the Sharingan's ability to control bijuu isn't needed. Furthermore, Pein doesn't need Madara's help to acquire bijuu. Pein provided the bijuu statue, developed the extraction jutsu, and 7 of the 9 bijuu were caught under his watch. Madara's "great" contribution to the Akatsuki storyline is persuading Sasuke to ally with the organization... Only to have Sasuke change his mind...

I'm also wondering the exact point behind Madara's character. Thus far, he hasn't done anything except milk off of Sasuke's plotline and act as nothing more than a plot device to ensure Sasuke's relevency to the current storyline. I'm hoping Kishi does something about this problem here eventually in order to make a half-decent attempt to hide the fact that Madara was retroactively written into the story.


Madara didn't manipulate anyone. Both characters allied with each other since they shared similar interests. This is a trait of Akatsuki that is repeatedly emphasized such as Pein's conversation with Hidan in chapter 329.

Madara used Pain's loss to get him to work for him. Madara probably told him about how to get peace and how to use bijuu to his advantage. Madara wanted Pain's Gedo Mazo and ability to resurrect, as well as power. I think saying Rinnegan would be shorter.

[Jammin]

Nagato was just a guy Madara manipulated. Nagato had abilities Madara wanted so he probably tempted him with the idea of creating that kinjutsu and a path to achieving his dream, something i very much doubt Madara ever intended to do.

Nagato had amazing powers but he was also a dying man. He wanted to create a cycle of destruction that, in his view, was for the betterment of mankind. His power was substantial but, as Naruto proved, he was not all powerful. Nothing he could do would have achieved the stability he wanted after his death. Madara took advantage of that used it to make Nagato little more than a pawn.:amuse

Could Madara have killed Pain? I don't see why not, as DEATHBOTT pointed out, Madara could probably just teleport in and stab Nagato through heart then be gone before the body hit the ground. :oh

[Franckie]

Controllng is ot the right word for it. The proper word would be manipulating. Nagato was being manipulated by madara to his own ends. That much should be certain by now.

And you're saying Nagato wasn't manipulating Madara to his own ends? Nagato wasn't the only one who had a grudge you know, and revival is a nifty ability.


What makes you so sure that Pain could have taken Madara in a fight? What has Pain got in his arsenal that could take Madara on? As far as I know, and it's a manga fact, Madara can't be touched by anyone.

What makes you think Madara is stronger than the man whose hype is virtually identical to his own?


It doesn't matter. Madara was the true leader, he was the boss. He was higher then Negato, simple as. Madara was the one giving orders to him, I didn't see Negato giving orders to Madara about capturing any Biju. Why do all the work when your pawns and subordinates will do it for you? To Madara, everyone is a pawn to him at the end of the day...he uses them for his own gain. Other Akatsuki members didn't know they were being manipulated, Madara had them used as pawns all along. As long as he gets the Biju, Sasori,Deidara,Hidan,Kakazu,Itachi,Negato, Konan don't matter to him. He got rid of Itachi through other means, sure he could have gotten rid of any of them if he wanted to but that would be pointless. He made sure that both sides get the damage, his own men die as well as the opposing side is also damaged. That's how Madara deals.

It does matter. Madara has the power to teleport anywhere and apparently has a 1HKO Bijju Haymaker. And yet depends on everyone else to do everything for him. He's done nothing so far besides being a weak as hell plot device for Sasuke to deviate completely from what he was and play puppy dog. His accomplishments pale in comparison to Pein's, and more importantly, we see Pein doing things while Madara's "great" achievements occurred years ago offscreen.

You're confusing the bijuu with Sasuke. Madara doesn't care about anything else as long as he can make use of Sasuke's Sharinguns. He already showed how much he cared about the bijuu when he let Naruto go without hesitation - because he was more interested in Sasuke. He also had a chance to seal a bijuu without Pein's presence, and failed horribly as a result when that Killer Bee was shown to be a fake.

Finally, Madara has been shown to be pretty incompetent.

- Botched his leadership of Uchihas so badly they preferred Shodai to him
- Took the Kyuubi to fight a man who can control Bijuu
- Lost the Kyuubi, his greatest power, for no real gain
- Couldn't get any revenge on Konoha until Itachi offered him an opportunity and olive branch
- Has squandered the majority of his elite underlings...
- And now the whole ninja world is pretty much gunning for him


He never had a relationship with Negato. Negato was always a pawn to him to use the Gedo Mazo.

Everyone in Akatsuki think of each other as nothing more than "pawns". Madara's relationship with Pein is no exception to this trend.


Madara used Pain's loss to get him to work for him. Madara probably told him about how to get peace and how to use bijuu to his advantage. Madara wanted Pain's Gedo Mazo and ability to resurrect, as well as power. I think saying Rinnegan would be shorter.

I'm still trying to understand the enitre premise for the relationship from Pein's point of view. Madara doesn't possess anything that Pein couldn't acquire on his own. The only reason that currently makes sense for Madara's existance is him being retroactively written into the story as an attempt to keep Sasuke revelent to events his character was never originally planned to be a part of.

[M3J]

Madara probably possessed the knowledge to make peace. He certainly had knowledge that Nagato didn't. And Madara could have rivaled Nagato in terms of power. We've seen how intelligent Madara is, and the kind of resources he has, which Nagato probably needs.

[Weapon_X]

What makes you think Madara is stronger than the man whose hype is virtually identical to his own?

It does matter. Madara has the power to teleport anywhere and apparently has a 1HKO Bijju Haymaker. And yet depends on everyone else to do everything for him. He's done nothing so far besides being a weak as hell plot device for Sasuke to deviate completely from what he was and play puppy dog. His accomplishments pale in comparison to Pein's, and more importantly, we see Pein doing things while Madara's "great" achievements occurred years ago offscreen.

You're confusing the bijuu with Sasuke. Madara doesn't care about anything else as long as he can make use of Sasuke's Sharinguns. He already showed how much he cared about the bijuu when he let Naruto go without hesitation - because he was more interested in Sasuke. He also had a chance to seal a bijuu without Pein's presence, and failed horribly as a result when that Killer Bee was shown to be a fake.

Finally, Madara has been shown to be pretty incompetent.

- Botched his leadership of Uchihas so badly they preferred Shodai to him
- Took the Kyuubi to fight a man who can control Bijuu
- Lost the Kyuubi, his greatest power, for no real gain
- Couldn't get any revenge on Konoha until Itachi offered him an opportunity and olive branch
- Has squandered the majority of his elite underlings...
- And now the whole ninja world is pretty much gunning for him

Everyone in Akatsuki think of each other as nothing more than "pawns". Madara's relationship with Pein is no exception to this trend.



1. First of all, Madara can't be touched. Everything which has landed on him as failed. Madara does this so effortlessly. Every Jutsu which has been tried to hit him as failed, what has Negato got that can bypass this? The Rin'negan? I don't think so. There is no way that Pain is stronger then Madara. Madara can just teleport to where Negato is and stab him through the heart, done and dusted. Even if it was Pain who went against Madara, Pain would not win against Madara. There is nothing in Pain's arsenal that can defeat Madara, well as, Madara with just 1 ability, can do anything. As you say "Pain's hype" I don't see a god listening to another person's orders. If Pain was stronger, then he would be the one ordering Madara around.

2. It doesn't matter whatsover. Madara is the leader, you are not getting what I'm trying to say but you're just getting carried away with your own biased points. Akatsuki DOES NOT matter to Madara. Why should Madara do all the work when his pawns can? Go on, tell me. Madara can get the Biju if he wants to, but at the end of the day, he doesn't want Akatsuki to be involved with his plans. He wants damage done to the other side. Look at Bleach, Aizen can pawn most of the Captains there, Yama could pawn the Espada, but do you see them doing it? No. And are you trying to say Madara is weak? He humiliated everyone, he humiliated the Konoha nins, Itachi, Sasuke, everyone. And how can you say he is weak when we haven't seem him in a proper battle? When we heard Pain was unbeatable, defeated Hanzou, that was all offscreen. Would you judge him as weak because we haven't seen him fight? No. You are judging Madara when we haven't seen him do anything. Kishi has always kept Madara in the shadows, after all this is a Ninja manga, Kishi isn't going to reveal all the bi guns straight away now is he?

3. How can you blame Madara for Killer Bee being a fake? That was Sasuke's fault, not Madara's. Also he does care about the Biju. Why? Because he wouldn't have sent Kisame to capture Bee then. He wouldn't have sent Negato to capture Naruto then. If he doesn't care about the Biju then he would destroy the Gedo, and he would forget his plans about sync'ing Sasuke to the Gedo. Madara's plan wasn't to capture Naruto, his plan was to stall them so Itachi and Sasuke could finish their fight. Seriously, re-read the chapters. :blink

4. What does it matter if he took the Kyuubi to fight Shodai? You do know that Madara can control the Biju as well, right? That's like saying the Uchihas shouldn't have Sharingans. If Madara has the power, is it wrong for him to use it?

He lost the Kyuubi for no real gain? Hmm, let's see. He planned to put the blame on the Uchihas - succeeded, the clan got wiped out. He planned to cause destruction to Konoha - succeeded. What no real gain? The Kyuubi was a pet to him, nothing more.

5. Negato manipulate Madara? Haha, that's a joke, right? A guy who attacks Konoha head on, listen's to Madara like a dog, and gets converted into Naruto's church,someone who wanted to nuke countries with the Biju wanted to manipulate Madara? Frankly, I don't think so Franckie.

Seriously, you are underestimating Madara, out of all people.

[da_ni]

like in an army, any soldier can take ou in one-on-one the gerneral, just becouse he has higher ranks doesn't make him stronger, i do think madara manipulated nagato to do what he wanted, but i don't think madara coul beat easily nagato. and pain has the power to take someone soul, i would like to see madara scape from that!!:D
madara was in charge because he was the most clever, could device the better strategies, a bit like shikamaru...only stronger!!
P.S.- itachi vs sasuke took lace about the same time when pain faced jiraya, about the same time tobi was facing konoha nins... it was only after taht pain went for naruto, and i don't think madara had planed that pain would fail...

[Weapon_X]

like in an army, any soldier can take ou in one-on-one the gerneral, just becouse he has higher ranks doesn't make him stronger, i do think madara manipulated nagato to do what he wanted, but i don't think madara coul beat easily nagato. and pain has the power to take someone soul, i would like to see madara scape from that!!:D
madara was in charge because he was the most clever, could device the better strategies, a bit like shikamaru...only stronger!!
P.S.- itachi vs sasuke took lace about the same time when pain faced jiraya, about the same time tobi was facing konoha nins... it was only after taht pain went for naruto, and i don't think madara had planed that pain would fail...

Madara can easily beat Pain if he wanted to. There is nothing in Pain's arsenal that can defeat Madara, and Human Realm needs to make "physical" contact with someone to take their soul out, how can he when everything that tries to touch Madara fails? Madara can teleport anywhere and just do a quick kill, not to mention his Taijutsu skill is impressive when he blocked Suigets's sword but just an arm. And we haven't even seen much from him either, he has yet to have a proper 1 on 1 fight with someone.

[kkck]

1.- The jinchuiriki are a village´s weapon of war. They have significantly more chakra than a human being and ther destructive capacities are well beyond human. In that sense, the threat of a jinchuiriki nbeing used as a weapon of war is more than signficant. Obviously they are not the only factor but they certainly are an important one. This two pages prove it:
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/428/09/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/404/14/

2.- Whether it is too risky would depend strictly on what madara´s plan is. We also do not know the exact state of the kyubi before the attack 16 years ago. For all we know the kyubi was simply chlaxing somewhere else while being alpowerful. Madara clearly could not seal it before the other biju´s since kyubi had to be last. In that sense it probably as not a bad idea to put the kyubi under the care of konoha while he gathered the biju hashirama did give away(the village would make sure ther weapon of war remains safe for a long time). Not to mention controllng a biju takes time and jutsu and konoha seemed to be largely unexperience at it. All in all, I doubt madara had the pwer to keep the kyub under control for over 16 years straight hch would have appeared to be the only alternatve.

3.- Pein and other akatsuki had their own agenda but that does not change the fact that madara was the boss and ultimately the final manpulator and orchestrator behind everything. Even if the ther akatsuki only listened to peins orders, pein did listened madara´s orders.

4.- And so the balance of power revolves around conflict. Even if madara cannot bear peace, he right now is in his element.

5.- For the kyubi to be an asset to madara, it had to be n a form he could control it. His plan clearly involves capturing all the biju, not just the kyubi. In that sense, as I said before, it was already stated the kyubi had to be sealed last. In that sense, unless the kyubi was n some form sealed before the attack 16 years ago, it was probably a good idea to keep it safe inside a village were could just snatch a kid in a near future(didn´t work out perfectly though lol). The alternatve woul have probably been keepng the kyubi under his control for 16 years straight which does not sound as a good idea. Also note that jut usng the kyubi to destroy everythng des not tend to work in narutverse. Not to mention destroyng absolutely everything is not nesesarily madara´s plan and even if ti is he probably s planning something a lttle more elabrated(peins weapon of mass destruction come to mind ....)

[Pro_Gantzer01]

Sure, Madara told Pein to capture the Kyuubi. You're forgetting one important fact though: It's Pein's decision to follow the "order" or not. Also, if the members were forced to choose between following Pein and following Madara, who would they choose?

The only thing I can say about this is, "Yay for making your manga make sense!"

I totaly disagree with this. What you said about Madara not having leadership over Akatsuki is not true. He ORDERED Pain to capture Naruto and said that failure was not tolerated. Pain didn't react but just followed his orders, and that was to show us that Madara was the real leader ordering Pain. Who knows, maybe Madara entered the organization as Tobi fooling everyone and he has the same ability as Shisui (Itachi's best friend whom he killed and Danzo took his eyes) that is, to control people's minds without them not noticing it. (That's very certainly the reason why Kisame called him Mizukage, because he controlled the fourth Mi,zukage... or was it the 3rd?).

"When it comes to Madara, I could believe almost anything" ' -Yamato :p

We already know how frighteningly strong he is, so why wouldn't he have that powerful technique of controlling people's minds as well?

[kkck]

The technique to control minds seems to be fairly normal among the uchiha. Kakashi used it against zabuza and danzo used it against mifune. Just imagine what someone as strong as madara can do with it specially when he is a real uchiha unlike kakashi and danzo.

[Pro_Gantzer01]

Btw, when did Kakashi control Zabuza? I dont really think he ever did... al he did was to fool him Im pretty sure of it.
http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Zabuza_Momochi There it says Kakashi only copied Zabuza's jutsus, one of the advantages of having a sharingan.. But he never controlled his mind, remember Shisui has been the only one known for that technique, and now it's almost 100% certain that Madara and Danzo can usse it as well. (Danzo has Shisui's eyes, and Madara is also known as a Mizukage according to Kisame, and we know that the pst Mizukage seemed like he was being controlled)

Danzo used it because he has Shisui's sharingan! Man, this is not a normal technique! If it were, Sasuke should be able to use it since he's strong and talented, and not to mention Itachi! He can't use that technique either.
As Ao said, Shisui was known for that technique, so that techinque is not common in Uchihas. He said its one of the most powerful eye techniques, so it cant be normal for all Uchihas.

[kkck]

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/15/07/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/26/15/
Kakashi showed the ability to suggest seals and stuff directly into zabuza's mind without him noticing. Danzo's version would seem more extreme but I would think the basic principle behind it is the same.

[Pro_Gantzer01]

It's not that Danzo's (originally Shisui's powerful eye technique of controlling people' minds) is more extreme. The thing is you got confused because what Kakashi did was Genjutsu, and you can even see the eye taking shape. Remember with Shisui's ability you can CONTROL PEOPLE"S MINDS meaning that you can make them do hat you want (In the case of Mifune, Danzo was controlling him to make him say that) whereas Kakashi only fooled him with Genjutsu (an illusion) and copied his hand seals (a sharingan normal ability) to copy his jutsus. That's why they call him "copycat Kakashi" as well.

[THM Nindo]

Interesting read.

The primary question that popped into my head while reading this is what if Shodai sealed the Kyuubi away in a pot, shrine, or something instead of human. Since not only could he control the Kyuubi, but also because a Sharingan user was able to... Konoha decided that they didn't need to sacrifice a person(Jinchuuriki) to gain that power when they already possessed the ability to use it as a weapon?

I think that Shodai actually used Gedo Mazo to seal and control the Bijuu.

Gedo Mazo is made of wood and his used to seal Bijuu, two things that are directly related to Shodai.

[benelori]

There is something that has been bothering me for quite some time now and I want to comment on it here.

Some time ago the manga started dealing with the war subject and quite a few things about the nature of the relationship between the great nations where revealed. What I gathered was that the means to currently avoid war was for each nation to keep a stable amount of power with each other. This means that at all times every nation must have a set amount of power and an increase or decrease of said military/economic power for any of the great nations could result in war. Basically if a nation grows too large or too small it can choose to conveniently start a war to make the other nations even out. For instance, if a nation grows to large, it could choose to attack another for the sake of power or become a target of the nations which are not developing as fast.

Now, according to a few things pein said, it would seem as if one of the greatest assets that help maintain the village's amount of power is the jinchuiriki. This seems logical considering that a jinchuiriki who can control his biju could potentially have access to monstrous amounts of raw power and jutsu to back it up as seen with gaara's biju, the 4-6-8 tailed naruto, and killerbee. Basically a biju is a creature who could decimate thousands of ninja's with just one blow as is the case with the hachibi and almost happened with the leaf when the kyubi attacked.

What I find extremely weird is that even though this system exists(or existed courtesy of akatsuki), konoha for a very large period of time did not have a biju. Kishi has revealed the origins of every jinchuiriki and we know the only one konoha ever had was naruto considering the biju were handed over to other villages to maintain the balance of power. It would seem as if after the period of shodai hokage was over, konoha simply did not have a jinchuiriki. Later on came madara and minato, and konoha, which already was the strongest nation, acquired a jinchuiriki.

Now, given what we know, it would seem as if the balance of power of power was stable before the kyubi attack. But IF the balance of power was stable before konoha acquired a jinchuiriki, logically speaking, it should be completely shifted once konoha acquired a biju which incidentally is the strongest of all.

Now, it has been repeatedly stated madara was the one responsible for the attack of the village 16 years ago. Mifune in the most recent chapter also mentions the leader of akatsuki has read the times and acted accordingly. This two things lead me to believe madara has been toying to his liking with the balance of power between each country. What's more, if that's the case there is a very real chance that the kyubi attack had exactly the result intended; to give konoha a biju and completely upset the balance of powers by placing konoha on top of the ninja world. Doing such a thing would naturally bring a further lack of trust between nations and trigger a war. Later on removing the biju would cause further problems specially if konoha keeps its biju while the other nations have none.

If the acquisition of a biju for konoha was really that big of a deal, then many other manga events would make sense. For instance, the attack of the sand to konoha. It was revealed the sand attacked konoha because many missions it was supposed to have were given to the leaf village. This could have been caused because of the increased power konoha got. It was also mentioned the cloud village for some reason started collecting weapons and jutsu. An example of this would be the hyuha incident. Maybe this was triggered by the fact that konoha had mere years earlier finally acquired an incredibly powerful biju and getting a powerful KG would help even things out.

Another interesting thing could be how the ichiha incident affected the grand scheme of things. Konoha went from having 2 out of 3 doojutsu to just having one. We also know madara wanted the uchiha dead for his own purposes. Maybe removing an entire huge clan would somehow affect the balance of power in a way which would be beneficial to madara. It is very well known that the sharingan can control biju so removing it from the village could very well result in yet another shift in the balance of power in favor of everyone but konoha. In a way it would make the jinchuiriki more effecting against konoha considering one of the only known methods to completely control biju essentially disappears. It significantly increases the effectiveness of biju against konoha plus the significant reduction in military power. In a way, it allows gives other villages the opportunity to target konoha(which could also bring us back to the sand-leaf war incident).

As my analysis shows, the balance of power between nations has been essentially toyed with and manipulated by madara. What's more, the fact that konoha acquired a jinchuiriki could have been the trigger to every major event between the great nations for the last 16 years. In a way, naruto and the kyubi were used by madara to move the nations how he pleased.

I apologize for making this so long. it kinda just happened lol

It's quite an analysis it's not long, good posts have no length.

I don't agree with the leaf-sand incident though. After the kyuubi incident, konoha still remained on top whether it's becuz of kyuubi or not doesn't matter. Konoha was almost destroyed but after a time it stabilized its power and grew strong. Chiyo and thus the sand knew that konoha had kyuubi. My question is, why would a weak country like sand who complains about konoha taking away it's missions, would risk an open war with konoha. Sand didn't attack with all forces i guess they had to leave defense at home. But konoha had it's entire jonin squad, root and anbu in the village.

So IMO this conflict is not a result of madara's toying with the balance of power, but oro's toying with the needs of sand, and turning those needs in his own personal needs. We know that oro/kabuto replaced kazekage at the time, so i think i am right in this matter, if not, well i'm open for suggestions

[misterchaos]

if we see madara order pain i logical madara is the "boss"

[misterchaos]

lol and things pass trough him, its crazy but its possible ...

[misterchaos]

i think yes naruto resembles his father, and everybody knows that minato sealed in his sons, (talking about hight skilled ninjas). If madara knows about the massacre of the uchihas, sure he knos about naruto...

[benelori]

what i want to know is will madara recognize shodai's necklace around naruto's neck....

The necklace was broken when naruto fought pain

[scoobysvk]

Maybe i am wrong but i remember that when the first and madara were fighting they were fighting with the tails. I would say that it is after madara was defeted that konoha gave the tails to others

[Pro_Gantzer01]

I think so as well, it was after the fight with Madara that the tails were shared among the countries.

[kkck]

It's quite an analysis it's not long, good posts have no length.

I don't agree with the leaf-sand incident though. After the kyuubi incident, konoha still remained on top whether it's becuz of kyuubi or not doesn't matter. Konoha was almost destroyed but after a time it stabilized its power and grew strong. Chiyo and thus the sand knew that konoha had kyuubi. My question is, why would a weak country like sand who complains about konoha taking away it's missions, would risk an open war with konoha. Sand didn't attack with all forces i guess they had to leave defense at home. But konoha had it's entire jonin squad, root and anbu in the village.

So IMO this conflict is not a result of madara's toying with the balance of power, but oro's toying with the needs of sand, and turning those needs in his own personal needs. We know that oro/kabuto replaced kazekage at the time, so i think i am right in this matter, if not, well i'm open for suggestions

In my analisys, I did not try to prove madara foresaw each and every manga event so far. I am not suggesting that he knew, for instance, that kumo would try to steal a KG from konoha. What I am trying to suggest is that madara took the measures to tilt the balance in any way so that "something" would happen. That something could be as simple as a diplomatic conflict and tension or a full scale war. I guess that what I am suggesting is that madara along with akatsuki planted the seeds of war and acted accordingly to what has happened since.

As for the sand-leaf incident: Konoha was on top of the ninja world before kyubi and the acquisition of it did not change that. Bascally the kyubi made a strong nation even stronger. The manga has several times hinted and mentioned the exstence of a balance of power in narutoverse. This means that peace is maintained between nations by each having a stable amount of power in comparison to the other. In that sense, a strong nation growing stronger will have an effect on said balance. So we have a strong naton growing stronger thanks to kyubi(even if naruto could not fully control it, he was still seen as a weapon of war by the world) and extra missions (from the sand) and the sand losing power due to a lack of money(from the lack of missions). Now, the reasons fr the war between the sand and the lead were already given in the manga and the 4th kazekage was well involved in that. Obviously the sand was at disavantage f they attacked konoha drectly but that was the reason fow which they attempted a sneak attack rght in the middle of the village(the chunnin exam, the hokage fight and the foled attempt to release the 1 tails in the midle of konoha) and joined forces with the sound village.

[benelori]

In my analisys, I did not try to prove madara foresaw each and every manga event so far. I am not suggesting that he knew, for instance, that kumo would try to steal a KG from konoha. What I am trying to suggest is that madara took the measures to tilt the balance in any way so that "something" would happen. That something could be as simple as a diplomatic conflict and tension or a full scale war. I guess that what I am suggesting is that madara along with akatsuki planted the seeds of war and acted accordingly to what has happened since.

As for the sand-leaf incident: Konoha was on top of the ninja world before kyubi and the acquisition of it did not change that. Bascally the kyubi made a strong nation even stronger. The manga has several times hinted and mentioned the exstence of a balance of power in narutoverse. This means that peace is maintained between nations by each having a stable amount of power in comparison to the other. In that sense, a strong nation growing stronger will have an effect on said balance. So we have a strong naton growing stronger thanks to kyubi(even if naruto could not fully control it, he was still seen as a weapon of war by the world) and extra missions (from the sand) and the sand losing power due to a lack of money(from the lack of missions). Now, the reasons fr the war between the sand and the lead were already given in the manga and the 4th kazekage was well involved in that. Obviously the sand was at disavantage f they attacked konoha drectly but that was the reason fow which they attempted a sneak attack rght in the middle of the village(the chunnin exam, the hokage fight and the foled attempt to release the 1 tails in the midle of konoha) and joined forces with the sound village.

Yep U got me here, he just planted the seeds of war, but i forgot that oro was part of akatsuki as well, and the fact that 4th kazekage used akatsuki.
But these seeds of war wouldn't grew if oro didn't exist. He wanted to get revenge on konoha, he used suna's status as weak country to make them allies of the sound and to attack konoha together.
We know that konoha put their hands on kyuubi after it attacked konoha, which is said that was madara's doing. My question is: konoha getting kyuubi was madara's failure in destroying konoha or this was as well a seed of war planted carefully?

The whole situation is so weird, i might consider danzo's actions wise at this point.
Madara "knew the times" right? He messed with different countries in different manners for his own purposes. Kumo, suna, and kiri used akatsuki, to remain in the business right, kumo tried to collect techs and weapons.
So madara actually manipulated 3 countries, through akatsuki. If he were to plant seeds of war, the target is absolutely konoha who besides it is the most powerful and has kyuubi, too. I think danzo acted according to this situation, and wanted as well( of course besides hokageship) to increase the military power of konoha, by making root and god knows what else( we learned recently root eliminated an entire clan).

As an answer to the question above...IMO the bijuu gathering action went through madara's head only after losing kyuubi...so before this he might have used akatsuki to complete missions for other countries, to gather spies, but nothing major. That is why losing kyuubi was a failure not a seed of war, but as we saw that only made the balance of power incline in konoha's direction.

Since we don't know madara's true goals, we can't really say he is guilty for the major conflicts that will occure or did occure, but i must admit he adapts to situations quite well.

[Arctigor]

i think yes naruto resembles his father, and everybody knows that minato sealed in his sons, (talking about hight skilled ninjas). If madara knows about the massacre of the uchihas, sure he knos about naruto...

I agree that everybody knows(and maybe madara, too) that minato sealed the kyuubi in naruto but I don't think that madara know that Naruto is Minato's son. I think only the elders, sandaime, jiraya and kakashi knew that naruto is minato's son.

[firework]

i dont think that Madara is related to Obito at all. I think the reason why their names are sort of similar is because of Sasuke Sarutobi, a famous ninja whose name Kishi used in alot of chars (3rd, tobi, Sasuke, Asuma)

[Darth Executor]

my question is: why did madara present himself as tobi? why did he hide his true identity inside of akatsuki? :S half of akatsuki knew who he was already?!?! konan, nagato, zetsu, itachi and eventually kisame

I'm not sure Itachi knew. He only "came out" after Itachi died.

[M3J]

From what it looks like, Madara has lot of info on tons of things, so I wouldn't be surprised if he knew Naruto's real heritage. He probably does, if Itachi knew it (and even if he didn't). Madara probably also put some info together, Yondaime putting the Kyuubi in his kid, and his kid resembling a lot like him.

[Arctigor]

He's not a ghost. Maybe the body we saw every time is similar to what pein use to have.

[ornis]

Maybe he's just pure chakra and uses his body with such high level ninjutsu that his appearance is like genjutsu---it's an illusion. He's present but not the way you wish he could be; were you to challenge him you'd want him to die after slicing him in half... but do normal Narutoverse people really get back up, bloodless, and reconnect themselves... the question seems an oxymoron because Narutoverse people are hardly normal but besides that... Madara doesn't bleed (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/357/09/) (Ch. 357). But he reconnects himself (Ch. 357 (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/357/10/)).

At another angle, Madara could be much much better than Tayuya's demon summons. They have a ghastly ability to eat through chakra and leave flesh intact (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/207/05/) (Ch. 207). Madara can make physical contact (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/383/01/) (Ch. 383) but seemingly send anything he wants through him (Ch. 380 (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/380/15/)).

It's the opposite of using himself to attack chakra and leave the physical intact: he phases through enemy chakra and bodies a few times by letting those objects move beyond his position as he stands directly in their way while he does nothing to his attackers. However, his adversaries end up behind or before him, leaving no damage to Madara, with their ninjutsu still at hand. Note that you can't damage Tayuya's ghosts either.

[Lord_Orochimaru]

The necklace was broken when naruto fought pain

yea we know that now but look at the date the question was ask

[ashher]

I've not seen anyone else suggest this, so I thought I'd ask what people thought.

Reasons for:
1. everyone thought he had been killed by Shodai Hokage at the Valley of the End;
2. as he said to Zetsu, the Rinne Tensei (ressurrection jutsu) was meant for him;
3. people phase through him, like a ghost; and
4. we've not seen him do much, indicating he's not capable of much.

Reasons against:
1. he stopped Suigetsu's sword with his arm;
2. he was burnable by Sasuke's Amaterasu;

If Suigetsu's sword has chakra, like perhaps the Samehada does, him being a chakra-ghost still makes sense.

So, I'm guessing this: he was actually killed by Shodai Hokage, but continued to exist as some sort of chakra ghost, most probably thanks to the Sharingan (since everything unexplainable in Narutoverse comes down to doujutsu).

What do you think? Feel free to correct me if I made any mistakes.

Who knows?
Paraphrasing old voldie,madara might be more than ghost but less than alive.

[juUnior]

Good question.


Seeing how Madara is so keen on things, I'm sure Madara would even know down to the very second Naruto was born.
Agreed, and:

I agree that everybody knows(and maybe madara, too) that minato sealed the kyuubi in naruto but I don't think that madara know that Naruto is Minato's son. I think only the elders, sandaime, jiraya and kakashi knew that naruto is minato's son.
Also agreed.

Man, you can really answer yes or not, and you have good arguments on both sides actually :x Considering the circumstances, that "Sandaime lineage" knew about such stuff <Kakashi being the student of 4th is also "lineage" thingy xd> I would say: no. But what about other villagers? They should have known that their 4th Hokage had a child <or maybe not, if Naruto was really 2/3 days old, "newborn", lol xd> Madara could have gained such knowledge. Besides, he has Zetsu for we don't know how long, he could spy on Minato <joke :p> Good question, really xd

[juUnior]

Nice read.


awesome post man this puts the whole story of the manga in a better prespective
Agreed xD


Now, given what we know, it would seem as if the balance of power of power was stable before the kyubi attack. But IF the balance of power was stable before konoha acquired a jinchuiriki, logically speaking, it should be completely shifted once konoha acquired a biju which incidentally is the strongest of all.
Like others said, about the balance of power. Konoha was already considered as one of the strongest. The main thing to consider would be: if it was under the Shodaime rule <when he has already given the bijuu to other nations - I mean, he was the one who "truly" controlled bijuu, so he didn't have to have one in the village because of that>, and: after the death of Shodaime <in that one particular time, Konoha should really be more powerless than under Shodaime reign, which means Konoha probably was weaker, and incident with Kyuubi was to give bijuu to shift the power once again>. That's why I think your analysis is prettry good, and like you said, kkck, Mifune put it into words in ch.359 about Madara xD

[kthy0056]

Danzou and Madara made a scheme 16 years ago. Madara summons Kyuubi, Konoha blames Uchiha, Danzou orders Uchiha's death and get's Kyuubi. That's my theory.

There is no such thing as balance of power. Not when Cloud village is getting 2 bijuus while Sand village is getting the weakest one. Like another user said, they were spread out by Hashirama just so that one country couldn't have monopoly over others.

[kkck]

Danzou and Madara made a scheme 16 years ago. Madara summons Kyuubi, Konoha blames Uchiha, Danzou orders Uchiha's death and get's Kyuubi. That's my theory.

There is no such thing as balance of power. Not when Cloud village is getting 2 bijuus while Sand village is getting the weakest one. Like another user said, they were spread out by Hashirama just so that one country couldn't have monopoly over others.

The one thing about this that should not be up for debate is the balance of power lol. Not only the circumstances makes it existence evident but it actually has been mentioned quite a few times in the manga.

[benelori]

The one thing about this that should not be up for debate is the balance of power lol. Not only the circumstances makes it existence evident but it actually has been mentioned quite a few times in the manga.

Yep that's true, fluctuating the balance of power is useful for somebody like madara who can actually do it. But there was a good point about suna having the weakest bijuu, while kumo had 2 of them. It's not really fair.
[hr]

Danzou and Madara made a scheme 16 years ago. Madara summons Kyuubi, Konoha blames Uchiha, Danzou orders Uchiha's death and get's Kyuubi. That's my theory.

There is no such thing as balance of power. Not when Cloud village is getting 2 bijuus while Sand village is getting the weakest one. Like another user said, they were spread out by Hashirama just so that one country couldn't have monopoly over others.

Also it can be that konoha and kumo were at some point in war with each other. Since konoha remained a top village, my guess kumo had great casualties, so shodai gave them 2 bijuus, this could be an explanation.

Also U cannot overlook the fact that shodai died, after him there was like no one to be able to control bijuus, that's why madara can use bijuus to disturb the balance of power, becuz nobody is there to actually counter him, like shodai did.
That's why after he died and kumo remained with two bijuus, well time flies... sunagakure was unlucky, that's all

Shodai did great but there was nobody who could take his place

I posted on many naruto threads and i remembered that i have to thank kkck for the best thread ever...so thanx man

[benelori]

I think if madara doesn't know at least he should guess it. Jiraiya wasn't sure either...
Minato sealed kyuubi into a newborn kid. Being Hokage I don't think and Madara must think this, that he would have sealed kyuubi in some random shinobi's son. So by elimination it must be naruto. Also I think madara has intel on the village and especially on minato becuz he was kage. Even after that he was lurking around konoha, cuz why would itachi be able to find him.
So if madara had intel, he must have known that Uzumaki Kushina was his wife. His comments on naruto not being a loser anymore imply also that he had his eyes on naruto.
=> Madara knows

[weehoo107]

Madara always seems to have some info on everything. very rarely have we seen him... not know something :p I think he knows something about Naruto's linage. it would make sense, Madara's not blind. if Kakashi knew, then other people must know :nod

my list of people who know : Madara, Jiriya, Tsunade, Kakashi, Third Hokage, possibly Orochimaru... but probably not. he wasn't as close to Minato, for all we know, he probably resented him for being 4th Hokage.

Minato wanted to protect Naruto, but from whom? I would have to assume the elders, Akatsuki, and of course outsiders. but there had to be some people who knew who could protect Naruto's secret, not to mention Naruto himself. Madara must have picked up on something since he always seems to have an insider on Konoha...

[badlade2720]

Seriously, seeing as how it's Madara, I'd think he would've been there watching Minato getting it on with Kushina

[Chidori602]

what kind of stupid question is this, madara knows almost everything, hes like 100 years old!

[Xiraiya]

Madara isn't stupid, he is highly intelligent and resourceful, he is no Aizen though.
He doesn't see and predict absolutely everything, he lost the Kyuubi in the first place because he never figured Minato would have the Death God technique that he had.

Though in all honesty, Madara knew quite a lot about Konoha, it's defenses and how society and culture work there.

This can actually fall into my theory on the Kyuubi attack, where I thought that there's a possibility Danzou was actually helping Madara on that night, Danzou knows quite a lot as well, destroying Konoha is what Madara wants but this also works for Danzou, especially if the current Kage dies in the process.

Going by this logic, it's highly likely that Danzou knows all about the child Minato sealed the kyuubi in, including his relation to Minato himself.

This may or may not even Matter to Madara, he simply wanted the kyuubi, however the recent chapter obviously shows Madara is now showing interest in Naruto himself rather than the Kyuubi.

To answer the thread, I think it's very likely for Madara to Know exactly who Naruto REALLY is, but if he doesn't then he'll piece it together and work it out after this talk with Naruto.

On a side note, I don't think Orochimaru knew about Naruto either, because I think he would have gone out of his way to capture Naruto or try and kill him if he knew the truth of Naruto.

[-Ren Boy-]

Maybe the only thing that stops Madara from knowing who Naruto is to Minato is Naruto's last names Uzumaki

[Xiraiya]

Maybe the only thing that stops Madara from knowing who Naruto is to Minato is Naruto's last names Uzumaki

He really should be able to work it out just by personally talking to Naruto and knowing what he looks like.

Surely the resemblance between the Kyuubi Jinchuuriki and the man that sealed the kyuubi in the first place must be apparent to Madara.

[benelori]

Madara isn't stupid, he is highly intelligent and resourceful, he is no Aizen though.
He doesn't see and predict absolutely everything, he lost the Kyuubi in the first place because he never figured Minato would have the Death God technique that he had.

Though in all honesty, Madara knew quite a lot about Konoha, it's defenses and how society and culture work there.

This can actually fall into my theory on the Kyuubi attack, where I thought that there's a possibility Danzou was actually helping Madara on that night, Danzou knows quite a lot as well, destroying Konoha is what Madara wants but this also works for Danzou, especially if the current Kage dies in the process.

Going by this logic, it's highly likely that Danzou knows all about the child Minato sealed the kyuubi in, including his relation to Minato himself.

This may or may not even Matter to Madara, he simply wanted the kyuubi, however the recent chapter obviously shows Madara is now showing interest in Naruto himself rather than the Kyuubi.

To answer the thread, I think it's very likely for Madara to Know exactly who Naruto REALLY is, but if he doesn't then he'll piece it together and work it out after this talk with Naruto.

On a side note, I don't think Orochimaru knew about Naruto either, because I think he would have gone out of his way to capture Naruto or try and kill him if he knew the truth of Naruto.

The problem with the danzo theory is that, danzo is part of of konoha as well even if he's just a powerhungry bastard. So he figures in madar's bingo book as well. I'd rather say he didn't do anything, when kyuubi attacked, stayed away,then tried to be hokage, but sandaime stopped him. He did the same thing with the pein attack now. Stayed behind then grabbed the title, even if it is a temporary measure( he still needs the jounins' vote)

[Shadoguardian]

Quite frankly, I think Madara has mastered dome kind of density control jutsu, which allows him to do as the the name implies. It makes sense especially since he managed to allow him to block Suigetsu's attack and at the same time allow jutsu's and people to pass through him.

[benelori]

He is not a ghost but he can be if he wants...shino's bugs proved this, he was there than he vanished, than sasuke went through, him so did naruto, but when he needed to block, not evade, he blocked(see suigetsu's attack).
I think there are two possibilities, that this is another power of his sharingan, or i thought about a jutsu. Maybe it kinda resembles pain's six path jutsu. So my guess is that he could've lost most of his body and he is using his chakra stored somewhere to control tobi. So if tobi's body is actually a dead body, then there is no pain to actually summon or reverse summon body parts. Now shino said there was chakra, that means he is inside tobi's mind, maybe that's why he has just one sharingan, to maintain contact with tobi. It's kinda like the cyber brain hacking in ghost in the shell

[Dr.Robotnick]

I think that MADARA knows about Naruto is the son of Minato but i am not sure ...

[jdw]

I think that minato knows about Naruto is the son of Minato but i am not sure ...

Of course Minato would know, he planted the seeds :p

[weehoo107]

I think that minato knows about Naruto is the son of Minato but i am not sure ...


Of course Minato would know, he planted the seeds :p

lol another tragic case of typo... :p

but I mean Madara has to know something about Naruto. it always seems as if he has a little intel on everyone, and naruto and minato have so much in common a blind man could see that they were related [:

[jacko361]

Madara knows Naruto took out two of Kakuzu's "lives" in one attack. It's reasonable to assume Madara knows Naruto is the son of the Yondaime Hogake.

First of all I think you answer isn´t valid for saying that naruto is Minato´s son.. because any ninja that is super strong will mean that he an be related to minato..
and finally I think he doesn´t know because lately his actions say that he doesn´t... besides he doesn´t know that minato has a seal on the kyubii as whe saw when he fought against pein...

[Blade800]

So I have few questions about Madara Uchiha

- Is he really Tobi (100%) ?

- Was madara showed somewhere before, in flashbacks or manga / will be shown ?

- There are plenty of his pics on the net. And if they didnt showed his face, how they know how he lookslike?

- Is it true that hes somehow linked with Oro jutsu that hes jumping from body to body to survive cause he would be already dead?

More questions will be asked soon :P

[jdw]

Open the spoiler to view answerss to your questions:

Tobi calls himself Uchiha Madara at various points (talking to Pain before Naruto fought Pain, talking to Kakashi in chapter 461), and he is acknowledged as Madara, the former mizukage by Kisame (he unmasked himself to Kisame).

He has not been unmasked to the audience (his current face). The pictures of his face that we have seen have all been flashbacks, particularly from the conversation Sasuke had with Madara, some were shown during Itachi v. Sasuke. There is no evidence so far that his is linked in any way to the body jumping jutsu.

[Blade800]

Open the spoiler to view answerss to your questions:

Tobi calls himself Uchiha Madara at various points (talking to Pain before Naruto fought Pain, talking to Kakashi in chapter 461), and he is acknowledged as Madara, the former mizukage by Kisame (he unmasked himself to Kisame).

He has not been unmasked to the audience (his current face). The pictures of his face that we have seen have all been flashbacks, particularly from the conversation Sasuke had with Madara, some were shown during Itachi v. Sasuke. There is no evidence so far that his is linked in any way to the body jumping jutsu.

Thanks for the asnwers, here are another questions :)

In which chapters are those flashbacks when we can see his face?
Were this flasbacks animated ?
He unmasked to Kisame in manga? # of Chapter please?
Is Kisame already dead in manga?
I tried to find Kakashi talking to Madara like you said, but Chapter 461 is the newest one and theres nothing about Kakashi and Madara, only Kage meeting.
According to that chapter? Are Sasuke team in Akatsuki?
And the last one: What is EMS? :)

[jdw]

Thanks for the asnwers, here are another questions :)

In which chapters are those flashbacks when we can see his face?
Were this flasbacks animated ?
He unmasked to Kisame in manga? # of Chapter please?
Is Kisame already dead in manga?
I tried to find Kakashi talking to Madara like you said, but Chapter 461 is the newest one and theres nothing about Kakashi and Madara, only Kage meeting.
According to that chapter? Are Sasuke team in Akatsuki?


Madara during Sasuke v. Itachi (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/385/17/). Click around to see more. Not animated yet
Madara during Sasuke & Madara's talk (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/399/01/). Click around to see more.Not animated yet.
Unmasking to Kisame (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/404/01/)
Kisame is not known to be dead.
Sorry, 460 (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/460/08/).
Sasuke's team was not really part of Akatsuki, just moving with (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/404/13/) Akatsuki. It can be debated I guess.
Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan

[Blade800]

Madara during Sasuke v. Itachi (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/385/17/). Click around to see more. Not animated yet
Madara during Sasuke & Madara's talk (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/399/01/). Click around to see more.Not animated yet.
Unmasking to Kisame (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/404/01/)
Kisame is not known to be dead.
Sorry, 460 (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/460/08/).
Sasuke's team was not really part of Akatsuki, just moving with (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/404/13/) Akatsuki. It can be debated I guess.


Wow, after reading it all, got little confused :D

Cant wait to see that animated !

Madara mentions that one guy ( I dont know his name right now) defeated him at the Valey of the end. So how come hes alive and nobody mentioned that hes alive?

And he had very long hair and now he has short hair, is it done on purpose? Tell me your opinion. Thanks

[jdw]

Wow, after reading it all, got little confused :D

Cant wait to see that animated !

Madara mentions that one guy ( I dont know his name right now) defeated him at the Valey of the end. So how come hes alive and nobody mentioned that hes alive?

And he had very long hair and now he has short hair, is it done on purpose? Tell me your opinion. Thanks

The person who defeated Madara is Senju Hashirama, the first Hokage. No one knew Madara was alive for a long time, then Itachi figured it out. Senju Hashirama is dead (it was confirmed during Oro's invasion when he used the 1st and 2nd hokages to battle the 3rd hokage).

He got a haricut? Unless someone just cut his hair out of spite or as a practical joke, it was probably on purpose.

[Blade800]

Yep, with shor hair, he will be hard to recognize :)

I dont know how he will look animated, but when I am reading that manga, Madara looks kind, telling Sasuke the truth(?). Or he is just saying it to bring sasuke on his side to manipulate him ?

That amaturasu thing or what it is, it is that jutsu with eyes which make black flame?

And you forgot to answer what is EMS :) Thanks a mil

[jdw]

Yep, with shor hair, he will be hard to recognize :)

I dont know how he will look animated, but when I am reading that manga, Madara looks kind, telling Sasuke the truth(?). Or he is just saying it to bring sasuke on his side to manipulate him ?

That amaturasu thing or what it is, it is that jutsu with eyes which make black flame?

And you forgot to answer what is EMS :) Thanks a mil

I edited, EMS is in there ;)

Amaterasu is a jutsu used by Itachi & Sasuke. It is a supposedly inextinguishable black flame that burns with the heat of the sun (or something to that effect). It can be used by them because they have the mangekyou sharingan. Madara may or may not be telling Sasuke the truth. I personally think it is like 75% truth, 20% lies, and 5% perception.

[Ryodraco]

I'm just going to add a few things.


Madara mentions that one guy ( I dont know his name right now) defeated him at the Valey of the end. So how come hes alive and nobody mentioned that hes alive?
Madara appears to have somehow faked his death. Whether it was intentional or not we don't know, but he did mention that even Hashirama (the 1st hokage) believed Madara was dead. Since then he has tried to be behind the scenes most of the time to keep his continued existence a secret.

And regardless of how true what Madara has told Sasuke is, there is no doubt he is manipulating Sasuke for his own ends. He apparently plans for Sasuke to become more powerful than Itachi or even Pain, and to eventually synch him with the bijuu sealing statue. However, he is fully aware Sasuke does not wish to obey him (and indeed wants to kill Madara for the part he played in the Uchiha massacre) so his manipulations tend to be very subtle and rely on motivating Sasuke to decide what Madara wants him to decide while thinking it was actually Sasuke's own idea.

[Blade800]

I'm just going to add a few things.


Madara appears to have somehow faked his death. Whether it was intentional or not we don't know, but he did mention that even Hashirama (the 1st hokage) believed Madara was dead. Since then he has tried to be behind the scenes most of the time to keep his continued existence a secret.

And regardless of how true what Madara has told Sasuke is, there is no doubt he is manipulating Sasuke for his own ends. He apparently plans for Sasuke to become more powerful than Itachi or even Pain, and to eventually synch him with the bijuu sealing statue. However, he is fully aware Sasuke does not wish to obey him (and indeed wants to kill Madara for the part he played in the Uchiha massacre) so his manipulations tend to be very subtle and rely on motivating Sasuke to decide what Madara wants him to decide while thinking it was actually Sasuke's own idea.

Yes, I have very similiar opinion. But dont know to express it cause I am not that good at English. :amuse

[segua]

One thing that has bothering me lately is what did Madara meant when he said that the Land of Iron is now under his authority? It's puzzling until one recalls how Danzou was or might have been using Shisui's mind control powers on the leader of the samurai.

If that leader is under control, the whole entire Land of Iron has been compromised.

I was also wondering if Madara could just be an illusion that Danzou has created to draw attention from himself. Such as creating an illusion that seems real yet it isn't. Though this does not hold since Madara was burnt by Ameterasu.

Another thing that I'm wondering is that when Kakashi dares uses his sharingan, he is worn out. Danzou on the other hand doesn't seem to exhibit this though I could be wrong. Thing is, after taking out the assassins, he didn't seem worn out. Of course, Danzou was far from the Land of Iron and could've fully recuperated before arriving. During the meeting, Danzou apparently used his sharingan, yet does not exhibit any fatigue.

Something seems out of place or I'm just over-thinking.

[~Joshua~]

I'm not sure Itachi knew. He only "came out" after Itachi died.

Madara was Itachi's mentor and accomplice. Itachi came to Madara to help with the annihilation of the clan. I'm pretty sure he knew.

[Zachc2009]

Madara is a very confusing person, you think you know his motives 1 minute then the next he is doing something that in a way can jeopardize akatsuki's goal and put him in the spotlight of the shinobi world making it harder for him to move amongst countries and attempt to capture the 2 remaining jinchuuriki

[Kuranzyan]

He is corporeal. He touches objects (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/396/16/), hit Naruto, and was practically bathing in Shino's bugs for a short time. Madara is sentient and kickin', so he's alive in every sense of the word.

[Baron Hugenstein]

Madara was Itachi's mentor and accomplice. Itachi came to Madara to help with the annihilation of the clan. I'm pretty sure he knew.

Well, whether he knew or not, there wasn't much he could do while not breaking his cover as an agent inside Akatuski. If he found who Madara was, he must have known that Tobi was Madara.

As well, Itachi knew that his time was coming soon, since Sasuke began to move towards confronting Itachi


Madara is a very confusing person, you think you know his motives 1 minute then the next he is doing something that in a way can jeopardize akatsuki's goal and put him in the spotlight of the shinobi world making it harder for him to move amongst countries and attempt to capture the 2 remaining jinchuuriki

That's what you call a great Villain :), one that can't be analyzed at first or second sight.
What Madara is currently doing is planting seeds for the next fights to come, either Narutovs Sasuke or Konoha going for war by Naruto's hands.

He isn't using his muscles but he is using his persuasion abilities, since Konoha isn't focused on teaching history lessons to their population.

[Kuranzyan]

First of all I think you answer isn´t valid for saying that naruto is Minato´s son.. because any ninja that is super strong will mean that he an be related to minato..
and finally I think he doesn´t know because lately his actions say that he doesn´t... besides he doesn´t know that minato has a seal on the kyubii as whe saw when he fought against pein...

He was referring to the fact madara "knew" Naruto had killed off Kakuzu's two hearts. If Madara "knows" that fact, it would be reasonable to assume he "knows" that Naruto is the son of Minato aswell.

[Shreds]

Kakashi always new that Minato was Naruto's father ,so did Itachi back here:
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/142/20/

Now how Kakashi knows it? when he asked Naruto "what did the 4th say", he lied, but you can see that Kakashi knew that when he thought about 4th being Naruto's dad ,he remembered his own father.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/455/15/

[jdw]

Kakashi always new that Minato was Naruto's father ,so did Itachi back here:
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/142/20/

Now how Kakashi knows it? when he asked Naruto "what did the 4th say", he lied, but you can see that Kakashi knew that when he thought about 4th being Naruto's dad ,he remembered his own father.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/455/15/

What lie???

[Shreds]

He didn't say Minato was his dead did he?
He lied cause he didn't say that Minato was his father ,he just say he has faith in him.

[jdw]

He didn't say Minato was his dead did he?
He lied cause he didn't say that Minato was his father ,he just say he has faith in him.

There is no lie, you are making it up or misunderstanding the language. The comment made that revelation irrelevant. If you look at the page you linked he said "Naruto, what did the 4th tell you. Fathers usually have things to say to their sons." At this point, everyone knows. In simpler terms, Kakashi is saying "what did your father the 4th tell you?" Yes, kakashi is thinking of his own dad, but Naruto, Sai, and Yamato are not inside Kakashi's mind, so they only know of the exchange concerning the 4th.

[Xiraiya]

I doubt anyone actually told Itachi that Minato was Naruto's son.
But I feel like Itachi used the awesome power to common sense to connect the dots personally.

[Shreds]

There is no lie, you are making it up or misunderstanding the language. The comment made that revelation irrelevant. If you look at the page you linked he said "Naruto, what did the 4th tell you. Fathers usually have things to say to their sons." At this point, everyone knows. In simpler terms, Kakashi is saying "what did your father the 4th tell you?" Yes, kakashi is thinking of his own dad, but Naruto, Sai, and Yamato are not inside Kakashi's mind, so they only know of the exchange concerning the 4th.
I didn't say Sai Yamato and Naruto ,I said "we" the readers we see/read Kakashi's mind.

[jdw]

I didn't say Sai Yamato and Naruto ,I said "we" the readers we see/read Kakashi's mind.

Whatever you said, there is no lie. The matter of the lie is settled.

[Shreds]

Okay. I dont even know why we started this argument...

It wasn't a lie ,I just didn't find the correct word to fit in.

[Shreds]

I've not seen anyone else suggest this, so I thought I'd ask what people thought.

Reasons for:
1. everyone thought he had been killed by Shodai Hokage at the Valley of the End;
2. as he said to Zetsu, the Rinne Tensei (ressurrection jutsu) was meant for him;
3. people phase through him, like a ghost; and
4. we've not seen him do much, indicating he's not capable of much.

Reasons against:
1. he stopped Suigetsu's sword with his arm;
2. he was burnable by Sasuke's Amaterasu;

If Suigetsu's sword has chakra, like perhaps the Samehada does, him being a chakra-ghost still makes sense.

So, I'm guessing this: he was actually killed by Shodai Hokage, but continued to exist as some sort of chakra ghost, most probably thanks to the Sharingan (since everything unexplainable in Narutoverse comes down to doujutsu).

What do you think? Feel free to correct me if I made any mistakes.

He kicked Naruto in tha face ,another reason. =D

Btw in the last few chapters he[Madara] said he needs the biju's to be whole.

What did he mean by "whole" is he realy a ghost? :O

[chess4]

He kicked Naruto in tha face ,another reason. =D

Btw in the last few chapters he[Madara] said he needs the biju's to be whole.

What did he mean by "whole" is he realy a ghost? :O

i thought about that too. it has to be something up with his body. i mean with the phasing technique he should be unstoppable, and he wouldnt need for someone to gather the bijuu for him.

[nat]

Oh Madara know alright, he knows everything!!!
We saw how his network of info is, I almost think he has facebook.

[MariosX]

Hello guys...
A theory crossed into my mind it might seem retarded but it makes sense so I'll start right away

After Pein [Nagato, Real Body] started resurrecting the ones he killed Konan said:
He who controls the Rinnegan is a master of all six Pain's techniques. They say he is outside life and death. Nagato is the 7th Pain, able to control life and death.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/449/01/

Pein said to Naruto and Jiraiya and all the other Akatsuki members why he was collecting the Tailed-Beasts:
He was collecting the Tailed-Beasts in order to create a powerful technique/weapon which will enable him to destroy entire lands in an instant.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/329/14/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/374/11/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/436/14/

Also all other members even Tobi/Madara acknowledges him as the leader:
You capture him. As the leader, failure will not be accepted.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/363/17/

Theory:
1) What if Nagato as the 7th Path resurrected Uchiha Madara because he acknowledged Madara's power and wanted him to be used as his weapon and failed because he resurrected him at the state he was after the battle with the 1st Hokage?

2) The only explanation that is given why Madara is still alive after all those years and after his fatal battle with the 1st Hokage is:
That his chakra has something to do with it

3) Madara sounds like he is incomplete like his powers have left him and in order for him to recover is to obtain big sources of chakra from the Tailed Beasts and note:
We have never seen him in action yet... We have never seen him do a technique of any kind, only the teleportation kinds.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/364/17/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/364/18/

4) The time line should be like this:
Sannins vs Hanzo => Nagato got Trained by Jiraiya => Yahiko, Nagato and Konan started creating their own organization about Peace => Ninja War [with Namikaze Minato and Itachi who saw what war is like] => Nagato and the others got Ambushed by Hanzo & Danzo => Nagato as the 7th Pain resurrected to Uchiha Madara to gain his revenge => Namikaze Minato became 4th Hokage => Madara summoned Kyuubi in order to destoy Konoha => Madara was looking for ways to excel his hatred at Konoha => Itachi found him and got trained => The assassination of the Uchihas began

Well that is all what I have to say.
Does anyone agree?

[Kawaiii]

Madara himslef said that he was betrayed by Nagato, and that the ressurrection was meant to be for him in case something happens. There is no way Nagato ressurrected him. Madara is probably just alive because of the "evil" nine-tails chakra, saving him after the fight with the First. It manifested itself in his body just like it does with Sasuke right now.

[Shreds]

Btw ,I've made some searching about MS/EMS new techniques that has been gained after achieving those levels.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/385/16/
You see here Sasuke asks "Blindness... So thats the price you pay for gaining controll on the Nine Tailed Beast" ,as you can see he speak to Itachi ,and since the original level of the Sharingan can subdue Kyuubi's chakra I believe the next level of the Sharingan ,MS ,can even controll it ,and when Sasuke heard EMS he asked again "there's more then controlling the Kyuubi?"

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/386/09/
Here Itachi says "the eye transplant gave birth to a completly new eye technique"
this might reffer to the space/time technique he uses.

[kakashi65]

nooo nooo nooo he isn´t a ghost
maybe he is an old geezer, maybe he is a pervert, maybe he is even a ghost but he is definitely no pornstar

[jiro]

>>Does anyone agree?

1. no
2. yes
3. yes
4. no

originally the first hokage controlled all the beast. (not sure if it meant all beast or several tailed beast)
i wonder why madara wants all the beast now.

back to topic, as far as i know, pain can only resurrect those that died only recently.
if he ressurected madarra (that died years ago), would not make sense. the only person i know capable to ressurecting the dead is Orochimaru (dum! dum! dummm!)

^_^

[dflynchimp]

Eh, maybe because I devoted a page-long post to it, but I've really gotten behind Delbi's idea of Naruto (Yin Kyuubi) + Sasuke (Yang Kyuubi) = Madara (full kyuubi). I don't really find Pain to be an important factor in Madara's plot anymore.

[Samui]

Your theory makes no sense. Nagato couldn't bring him back to life, after Madara was killed by Hashirama, which happened more than 50 years ago. Nagato wasn't even born at that time.
Nagato's Jutsu had time limit. He could bring back only those who died recently, in the last minutes.

[Sherlock Holmes]

WHO YOU GONNA CALL?
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_kRKai8rGj9w/RtgcwWwd1oI/AAAAAAAAAqA/tOjWlmJ9bno/s320/Ghostbusters+2+-+Soundtrack+%281989%29.jpg

I think he is just a MacGuffin user. Nothing more.
...Though him being a timelord would explain why he is still alive.

[ashher]

Interesting theory.........except the fault that jiro mentioned.

[digitaldude]

1) Nagato can not resurrect people that have long since died, obvious example is Jiraya.
2) Why was pain taking orders from madara, after all if he revived him, so madara should be in his debt.
3) You are saying that Nagato resurrected madara during the Hanzo Danzo fight, Nagato looked to be in his late teens, but Madara could have already been The Mizukage by then, After all Madara attacked konoha with the kyuubi 16 years ago, and before that he was the Mizukage for an unknown time.

[Randoug]

Madara said that the sharingan is a derivative of the Sage of Six Paths original Rinnegan. Since this is just a derivative he feels that he is incomplete as he can only utilize it. But it seems that he has figured out a way to evolve his sharingan into the Rinnegan the sage and the first son possessed. He created a group of uber strong individuals that he felt could help him accomplish his desire to gain all the bijuus. Madara himself could easily capture all the tailed beasts but he wanted everyone to think that this group was a terrorist organization that would use these bijuus as leverage over the entire Ninja World. It seems that he needs the power of the bijuus to enable the Rinnegan.
Madara's main purpose for obtaining the strongest eyes of all time is to show that the strength of dojutsu is greater than the power of will and determination. He wants to prove this to the entire ninja world by becomming so powerful that not even a combined force of all the villages will stop him. What is unknown is the Madara's true intent with Sasuke.

[Evil_Eyes]

@Thread Starter: LOL! You just made my day, man!

[ashher]

I think this is rather oversimplifying things though

[carcina]

yes madara knows because when itachi camed in village with kisame after the 3rd hogake death he told to kakashi in their fight that he is after 4th hokages heritage or a descendant so yes he defenetly knows

[MinatoNamikaze]

What do we know overall about Madara so far?
I think he has to be trying to re-activate his EMS by manipulating Sasuke. Sasuke now has the Amaterasu which is one of the the three gods. With this, I think Madara is after his eyes re-activate EMS.

Also Remember how there destined to be a fight between Naruto and Sasuke because of them being descendants? Well was looking at someones theory about Naruto being in bloodline of the Senjuu clan. This would make Tsunade the grandmother of Naruto. The theory is that Minato was the son of Tsunade.

When it comes to the fight of Sasuke and Naruto, remember back when they had their fight by the statues? Well Naruto was on the First's statue and Sasuke was on Madara's statue.

Uchiha vs Senjuu is the way I see it.

[niblack89]

Mandara wants to be the sage of the 6 paths. To me he is setting everything up around what the sage is about.
1) He believes that Senju and Uchia are descendants of the paths brothers

2) He said he wanted Pains power. The reinggein(miss spell badly sorry) was suppose to be the eye the sage possessed.

3) Pain said something about the sage creating the moon. Mandara has a plain called the eye of the moon. It is still unclear why the moon was created but we can assume something is sealed with in it cause that jutsu that pain used seems to be a sealing jutsu and as we all know the moon is in space away from mankind.

4) He said to kakashi to be come complete but earlier told the story of one brother with the eyes of the sage and one with the body. he has the eyes we all see the true power of the MS in spite of everyone's opinions Saskue is proving his powers with MS. So Mandara has a complete EMS. He only shows one eye but there is no evidence to suggest he doesn't have two Maybe EMS has it problems everything in Naruto says every Justsu isn't perfect and has repercussions and EMS is to Perfect. Maybe it deteriorates his body that's why he's a ghost?

[LiL_JiRiyAya]

What do we know overall about Madara so far?
I think he has to be trying to re-activate his EMS by manipulating Sasuke. Sasuke now has the Amaterasu which is one of the the three gods. With this, I think Madara is after his eyes re-activate EMS.

Also Remember how there destined to be a fight between Naruto and Sasuke because of them being descendants? Well was looking at someones theory about Naruto being in bloodline of the Senjuu clan. This would make Tsunade the grandmother of Naruto. The theory is that Minato was the son of Tsunade.

When it comes to the fight of Sasuke and Naruto, remember back when they had their fight by the statues? Well Naruto was on the First's statue and Sasuke was on Madara's statue.

Uchiha vs Senjuu is the way I see it.

tsunade never had kids that theory holds no water

[kkck]

I doubt madara wants the rinnengan lol. I have no evidence with or against your theory but I do think doing such a thing would go completely against the current flow of the story. The uchiha have always been excedenly proud of their sharingan and while the abilities of the rinnengan are enviable, I doubt a uchiha would ever admit superiority. Also, I think madara's wanting to be complete would be incoherent with him wanting a rinnengan. If madara is incomplete it means he at some point lost something important. For all we know he never had the rinnengan which means he never lost it therefore he cannot be incomplete for having a sharingan instead of a rinnengan. I also remembered this:

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/364/18/

This page is definite prove IMHO that madara wants to somehow powerup his sharingan using biju.

[niblack89]

I doubt madara wants the rinnengan lol. I have no evidence with or against your theory but I do think doing such a thing would go completely against the current flow of the story. The uchiha have always been excedenly proud of their sharingan and while the abilities of the rinnengan are enviable, I doubt a uchiha would ever admit superiority. Also, I think madara's wanting to be complete would be incoherent with him wanting a rinnengan. If madara is incomplete it means he at some point lost something important. For all we know he never had the rinnengan which means he never lost it therefore he cannot be incomplete for having a sharingan instead of a rinnengan. I also remembered this:

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/364/18/

This page is definite prove IMHO that madara wants to somehow powerup his sharingan using biju.

If this response was to me I think I miss lead didn't mean he wanted the rinnegan I meant he wants the power of the other brother the body of the sage. He lost the power of the rinnegan from pain. He believes that he has the eyes of the sage or at least in a sense with his sharingan.

[MinatoNamikaze]

tsunade never had kids that theory holds no water

Actually it does, I think you should take a look at this theory. There is definately evidence in that discussion that lead me to believe it. You have to read the whole thing not just one or two sentences.

http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46728

[LiL_JiRiyAya]

Actually it does, I think you should take a look at this theory. There is definately evidence in that discussion that lead me to believe it. You have to read the whole thing not just one or two sentences.

http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46728

thats a theory still holds no water i rember jiriyaya saying something about tsunades breast before he fought pein and i think losing her son would be helluva important to her also here is the ether of that theory tsunade had a phobia of blood.

[MinatoNamikaze]

thats a theory still holds no water i rember jiriyaya saying something about tsunades breast before he fought pein and i think losing her son would be helluva important to her also here is the ether of that theory tsunade had a phobia of blood.

I think Tsunade leaving Konoha and not returning would count. Also i think her phobia of blood came from other people that she saw die. The person she saw die was Dan because she couldnt stop the bleeding.

[nawni]

This is a great topic glad its here I believe the recent revelation of the 2 brothers from madara to naruto is the key which some of you agree with and play with in theories and I think there's more to the rinnengan than just eyes why wouldn't madara harvest them from nagato zetsu is the body retriever so there's a question I can't answer and we know the sharingan takes an uchiha to use to its fullest potential and if the renningan is the source of it maybe the brothers got half to avoid a reigning pure bred rennngan user it was split to create a balance in some odd theory I can't put together myself and that's the senjuu uchiha but it clashed because madara is too greedy and this decendents destined to fight thing is a by product of an attempt at balance it started with the brothers and 1 has always seen himself as the rightful heir and madara is the poster child of this and sasuke is too narrow minded to realize the huge role he actually plays in all of this and would madara have 1 eye sharingan and 1 eye renningan but can't use it because his body rejects it or because its beyond his current limits? Bijuus complete this transition maybe? The eye theory is cool but a little weak in the support department still fun to ponder I hope we have more info coming about madara and nagato hookin up or maybe I missed it? great thread awesome posts by everybody thanks for reading mine

[br4nd0nh347]

I think he just wants Sasukes matured eyes. (he's getting him to do everything he wants and unlocking MS and stuff)
Sasuke can then have his brother's eyes, not because what he said but because he'd be blind without them.

[nawni]

So there's no misunderstanding im reffering to a flash back sequence when I mention madara nagato hookin up I just feel there should've been more there about these 2 hookin up and plotting this akatsuki group cause pein would answer to nobody and take comands from nobody yet somehow he's cool with madara/tobi tellin him what to do? Somethin happened between these 2 we don't know or my dumbass just missed a chapter with this flashback and info in it

[MinatoNamikaze]

So there's no misunderstanding im reffering to a flash back sequence when I mention madara nagato hookin up I just feel there should've been more there about these 2 hookin up and plotting this akatsuki group cause pein would answer to nobody and take comands from nobody yet somehow he's cool with madara/tobi tellin him what to do? Somethin happened between these 2 we don't know or my dumbass just missed a chapter with this flashback and info in it

i do not remember reading a chapter that talked about these 2 getting together. was there one? if so which one was it?

[Franckie]

If he truly wanted Rikudou's full-power, he would go after the Senju bloodline, which houses the Sage's physical energy. Madara has no interest in such a thing though. Truth be told, he has no immediate interest of anything save Sasuke. If things such as the bijuu truly were pivotal to his goals, he'd get off his lazy rear and go do something like grab Naruto himself. Madara's desire to showcase Uchiha superiority by having Sasuke defeat Naruto is in truth a two-bit attempt by Kishimoto to obscure facts such as Madara's plotline is worthless outside of instigating conflict between Naruto and Sasuke until the end of the manga, and to come up with an excuse for Akatsuki to not a lay a hand on Naruto before he becomes too strong for them to effectively deal with him.

[Weapon_X]

If he truly wanted Rikudou's full-power, he would go after the Senju bloodline, which houses the Sage's physical energy. Madara has no interest in such a thing though. Truth be told, he has no immediate interest of anything save Sasuke. If things such as the bijuu truly were pivotal to his goals, he'd get off his lazy rear and go do something like grab Naruto himself. Madara's desire to showcase Uchiha superiority by having Sasuke defeat Naruto is in truth a two-bit attempt by Kishimoto to obscure facts such as Madara's plotline is worthless outside of instigating conflict between Naruto and Sasuke until the end of the manga, and to come up with an excuse for Akatsuki to not a lay a hand on Naruto before he becomes too strong for them to effectively deal with him.

So you are saying he doesn't have any more plans/goals apart from make Sasuke and Naruto fight together? Hmm...you are avoiding the Eye Of The Moon plan which could be ANYTHING. He said himself that he wanted to attain perfection, and this is just the beginning of his plans. These are like small mini plans. Madara still has a lot to say about his true plans...

[carcina]

i think he wants to fuse senju and uchiha since their are descendants of rikudou into one body with sharingan or wathever so he can use it to its fullest power since senju have his physical power and uchiha his eyes probably evolved or maybe devolved so by combining it he would become like rikudou but what i dont understand is why he needs bijuu

[nawni]

i do not remember reading a chapter that talked about these 2 getting together. was there one? if so which one was it?

That's what I was tryin to say I didn't recall ever reading anything about it and that we need more into how they became "teammates" or whatever you would call it like why would pein - someone who called himself a god take orders from madara-who has not really shown any abilities other than the time warp can't touch me ghost thing avoiding amaterasu and whatever he did with deidara and the tailed beast they went after- was their a fight? a mutual agreement? rock paper scisors? Don't see a god just sayin oh ok whatever you want I'll do sir yes sir if you or anyone have or find info on this please share it
[hr]
Don't want people upset that im straying from the thread topic all my posts are related to each other and all together to the thread just stuck on pein and madara cause the renengan was there for how ever long these 2 knew each other and as far as madaras abilities in relation to what he desires why the odd bond with these 2? I keep feeling the need to elaborate so if anyone gets what im tryin to say and inquire about please let me know so I can stop posting and feeling stupid thanx love this topic great thread

[Franckie]

So you are saying he doesn't have any more plans/goals apart from make Sasuke and Naruto fight together? Hmm...you are avoiding the Eye Of The Moon plan which could be ANYTHING. He said himself that he wanted to attain perfection, and this is just the beginning of his plans. These are like small mini plans. Madara still has a lot to say about his true plans...

What would Oro do after he acquired the Sharingan and learned all jutsu while passing the time time? What would Sasori do after acquiring a whole bunch of puppets? What would Deidara do after blowing up a whole bunch of stuff? What would Kakuzu do after acquiring a big bundle of cash? What would Hidan do after killing loads and loads of people? What would Itachi do outside of waiting around for Sasuke to kill him? What would Danzou do after becoming Hogake? What would Pein do after capturing all the bijuu and destroying the ninja world? If it's one thing villains are known for in this series, it's not having any long-term goals.

Madara's immediate goals are Sasuke's eyeballs and Konoha's destruction. Although the "Eye of the Moon" plan has yet to be explained in full, it's obviously a plan specifically detailed to fulfill Madara's stated goals.

Madara didn't state he wanted to obtain "perfection". He wanted to become "complete", which fits into his previous stated goal of restoring himself to his former power, and Sasuke's eyeballs (somehow) will play a part in that. If he wanted "perfection", instead of doing nothing except screwing around with Sasuke, he'd be out grabbing bijuu and scouting for suitable Senju.

[CBlitz]

I think he wants to make the bijuu-nuke as well, except not use it for the peace stuff that Pain wanted

[Weapon_X]

What would Oro do after he acquired the Sharingan and learned all jutsu while passing the time time? What would Sasori do after acquiring a whole bunch of puppets? What would Deidara do after blowing up a whole bunch of stuff? What would Kakuzu do after acquiring a big bundle of cash? What would Hidan do after killing loads and loads of people? What would Itachi do outside of waiting around for Sasuke to kill him? What would Danzou do after becoming Hogake? What would Pein do after capturing all the bijuu and destroying the ninja world? If it's one thing villains are known for in this series, it's not having any long-term goals.

Madara's immediate goals are Sasuke's eyeballs and Konoha's destruction. Although the "Eye of the Moon" plan has yet to be explained in full, it's obviously a plan specifically detailed to fulfill Madara's stated goals.

Madara didn't state he wanted to obtain "perfection". He wanted to become "complete", which fits into his previous stated goal of restoring himself to his former power, and Sasuke's eyeballs (somehow) will play a part in that. If he wanted "perfection", instead of doing nothing except screwing around with Sasuke, he'd be out grabbing bijuu and scouting for suitable Senju.

Attain perfection, Binktopia's translation: http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-463/page011.html Same words used for Cell in DBZ.

Edited out the spoilers

[M3J]

Here's a warning: do not post spoilers. If you wanna talk about the spoilers, do so in the spoiler discussion thread, not in here. I deleted a post and edited another that mentioned spoilers.
If I see even one spoiler here, this topic will be locked until the spoiler period has passed.

[The Closet Pervert]

So I was re-reading some of the chapters, and when I reached the Orochimaru vs 3rd Hokage -fight, it made me think.

How can Madara be defeated in battle? From what we have seen all taijutsu and ninjutsu that have been used against Madara have been ineffective. That leads me to believe no taijutsu or ninjutsu will ever hurt Madara. The fight between Orochimaru and 3rd Hokage made me realize there is only one way Madara can truly be touched:

Soul binding/sealing/killing techniques.

Taijutsu is useless against Madara. Ninjutsu is useless against Madara. Genjutsu may work, but I haven't seen yet a genjutsu that can kill you. Tsukyomi is supposedly one of those, but then you have to remember you are against Uchiha Madara. It probably ends up as one of those genjutsu showdowns similiar to Sasuke vs Itachi, but I don't think there's anyone who can outclass Madara. Sasuke may eventually become equal but in the end I came to a conclusion there is no genjutsu that could possibly kill Madara. This leaves only the soul techniques we have seen some rare people use. Soul techniques we know of:

1)Pain had a soul killing technique.
2)I guess Susanoo can seal a soul permanently.
3)Only 3rd option I can think of is "Fuuin Jutsu, Shiki Fuujin", also known as "Enchantment Spell: Dead Demon Imprisoment", or "Death God jutsu". You know, the jutsu 3rd and 4th hokages used.

Nagato/Pain is dead, the jutsu is no longer obtainable/usable, I assume. Sasukes Susanoo could hurt Madara in theory, but from what we have seen fully developed Susanoo is not very mobile. There is no way Sasuke could ever catch Madara with Susanoo, even if Susanoo could hurt Madara. This leaves us only the 3rd option, the ugliest one.

Unless you people find some another option, I am afraid that if Madara is to be defeated/killed, someone has to use the Death God jutsu on him. I'm also afraid this someone would have to be Naruto. I do wonder a bit how it all would work out since Naruto already has a thing sealed inside of him. Anyway, it'd be real pity to have Naruto die in the end of the manga, but Death God jutsu alone would not solve the problem. Death God jutsu is useless if you can't catch Madara.

Madara has seen 4th use that jutsu, I bet Madara knows the seals when he sees them, and will immidiately teleport away when he sees someone use Death God jutsu. This leaves two options: either some jutsu to bind/hold Madara down, or some space/time jutsu that is fast/good enough to catch him where ever he goes.

I can only think of two things that could hold Madara down: Shikamarus shadow binding and Sasuke going full-on-genjutsu-war on Madara. Both are bit questionable options. First of all, we have no idea if Shikamarus techinque works on souls. Second, we have no idea how good Madara is at avoiding genjutsu. By that I mean is: is Madara good enough to deflect whatever genjutsu is thrown at him and still have time to use teleport before another genjutsu is thrown?

That makes me think that the best option would be a jutsu similiar to 4th's space/time jutsu. However I don't know if 4ths jutsu will work, it may have to be modified: unless I remember wrong, 4th can only teleport to a location that is marked by one of those tags he had on kunais in Kakashi Gaiden? If Madara figures that out he only has to teleport to a spot where there is no such tag and he's out of reach. But however it goes, if space/time jutsu is used to keep up with Madara, the person who intends to kill/seal Madara with a soul-technique will have to learn that jutsu. And since Naruto is the main character, and Madara seems to be the final villain, I assume it'll be Naruto that finishes Madara off.

Anyway, I assume all this based on the assumption that once someone gets a hold of your soul, you can't space/time teleport away anymore. So in theory if someone uses Death God jutsu, he only needs to get close to Madara once.

What do you think of this theory of mine? Does it seem plausible? Are there any holes in this theory what you can find? Can you give me a more plausible/better option to defeat Madara?

[Xiraiya]

Personally, I feel as though Minato gave Naruto Kyuubi thinking that if Naruto learns Shikifujin, he can kill Madara and use the Kyuubi as a "sacrifice" instead of his own soul.

In other words, Naruto could lose the Kyuubi and not die, like he would if it was extracted by akatsuki.

[The Closet Pervert]

Personally, I feel as though Minato gave Naruto Kyuubi thinking that if Naruto learns Shikifujin, he can kill Madara and use the Kyuubi as a "sacrifice" instead of his own soul.

In other words, Naruto could lose the Kyuubi and not die, like he would if it was extracted by akatsuki.

That's a very good point. It'd fit my theory too! But that could mean that in theory Naruto would have no need to master the use of Kyuubi. That would suck major time.

But I guess that's a better way than having Naruto die.

[jodi]

with salt.

[3c]

It's indeed a plausible theory TCP, but I don't know, I simply don't see it happen. Or rather, I don't see Naruto using such a sealing jutsu.

I agree with Xiraiya on one thing, Minato gave Kyuubi to Naruto for a reason. However as weird as it may sound, I doubt Naruto would sacrifice Kyuubi, even if he hates his guts and Kyuubi is a purely evil creature. Naruto is just to pure. And I bet Kyuubi would scream and beg for his life if Naruto was about to kill him off to save his own skin, I judt don't see Naruto ignoring Kyuubi's begging, because he would certainly beg. Unless they come to a common agreement to use Kyuubi to seal Madara, then I don't see Naruto doing it, no matter what.

So if that isn't the way he'lll kill Madara, then the only other option really, is for Naruto to use "that jutsu" Jiraiya talked about with the scroll frog. As said Minato gave Kyuubi to Naruto for a reason, rather than sealing all of it into himself. It's designed to kill Madara. This is pretty much orchestrated by Minato. The jutsu to finish Madara off is definitely tied to Naruto using Kyuubi's power. And I'm betting the jutsu is written on the scroll frog's scroll.

So then comes the question, how does he catch Madara and deliver the unknown jutsu? Well I don't know. Hiraishin? Improved Hiraishin? Though one thing is certain. Naruto would end awfully similar to Kishimoto's brothers manga 666 Satan, if he ended up sealing Madara away, and I hated 666 Satan's end :oh

[En Yang Ji]

- Assuming he has to activate the S/T jutsu every time he wants use it, someone could hit him by catching him off guard.

Using a jutsu that's hard to detect or hitting him before he has time to react would work.

[Xiraiya]

- Assuming he has to activate the S/T jutsu every time he wants use it, someone could hit him by catching him off guard.

Using a jutsu that's hard to detect or hitting him before he has time to react would work.

Even so, Naruto would have to hit hard, because despite his weakness, Madara stopped Zarbuza's sword barehanded.

[3c]

Even so, Naruto would have to hit hard, because despite his weakness, Madara stopped Zarbuza's sword barehanded.

Indeed, though Madara can simply have some metal there to block it. Suigetsu's attacks would have been far more powerful if he added an element to the sword. A dead on hit with FFRS would kill anyone for sure.

This is a page by Sleepyfans. Though on the Binktopia scan the sound effect is described as "clang". Could be some metal.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/404/12/

[BBB Banana]

I think the secret to defeat madara is in his said "limitations" since he allways say he's not powerfull enough to do stuff. So if one person discover this limitation he could certainly win.

[Banedor]

Note before I start: It's been 48 hours since \o/ released his scanned Naruto chapter.

As many who have read the latest chapter know, Madara stated he plans to put all the nine tailed beasts into his own body and become the Juubi, but...

As we all know, Naruto only controls the yin chakra and the yang chakra was sealed away in the Demon God with Minato.

With that known, if Madara was to take all nine tails and inject all nine beasts into himself, wouldn't he still be short all the necessary chakra to become the Juubi?

Ultimately I believe only Minato, Jiraiya, and the Frog Scroll knew about the yin and yang chakra being sealed away and split in half between Naruto and the Demon God.

So in short, does Madara not know about the chakra being split making his plan automatically set to fail down the road since he could be under the impression Minato sealed himself into the Demon God for all of the Kyuubi to go into Naruto? Or does Madara not need all of the Kyuubi chakra for the Juubi plan to be successful.

I know it sounds like I'm blabbering but I hope everyone understands the point I'm trying to get across.

[3c]

Naruto still has enough Kyuubi chakra to make his Bijuu the most powerful, and being able to fully accessing Kyuubi's chakra. I don't see Madara's plan failing even if half of Kyuubi's chakra is gone, because Naruto's jinchuuriki powers seem to be complete. If anything, Juubi may end up being slightly weaker than anticipated by Madara. Still as rich on information as Madara is, I wouldn't be suprised if he knew about the yin and yang chakra being splitted, though I don't see how he can know.

[poobert]

I have a feeling this was part of Minato's plan. Minato should know from the other tailed beasts that the host can handle the whole beast. The entire 8 tails can fit in a body without being split. There is no need to split the chakra at all. Even Jiraya was puzzled by this.

I think that Minato had a feeling that it was risky to put the whole 9 tails in naruto, so he split it up and put the disagreeable chakra in to naruto. This way naruto can struggle to learn to acquire the fox's chakra, but if it is sucked out by akatsuki:

1. He won't die because only half of the sucking out process is going to occur,

2. Madara's plan will not be complete because he only has the disagreeable 9tails chakra (the one that acts like a psycho and will no doubt go on a rampage inside gedo mazo, lessening the control madara has over it)

3. The juubee can not be summoned because it is missing a key amount of chakra, so all madara can do is use the 9 beasts as weapons.

4. Naruto can still seal the agreeable half of the 9tails chakra in him, which he will be able to use completely (because of the training he had in controlling the eviller half of the chakra) and can match the strength of the beasts that madara has in his control (not including the 9 tails, which madara will not be able to control). Thus giving him the power to fight back, which Minato talked about in the dream.


My theory rests on the assumption that the splitting of the chakra literally split it in to dark and light (evil and not so evil). With the evil part being sealed in naruto. When he puts the not evil part inside himself, he will be able to control it perfectly.

[poobert]

Kakashi can kamui his ass.

[Xiraiya]

Kakashi can kamui his ass.

A Kamui battle?
Nothing but Sucking and warping for hours on end until someone loses an eye haha
(Or a limb)

[BBB Banana]

Madara can travel trough time and space so sending him to another dimesion isn't the solution.

Off topic: Your sig is so kick a** xiraya

[poobert]

Just send his head in to another dimension. If swords can't decapitate him, then kakashi can still take his head.

[THM Nindo]

Actually, I'm one of those that think that the other half of the Kyubbi is NOT inside the Reaper.

I think Minato sealed it somewhere else.

My theory (that would be cool) : it's inside Kushina.
That would make sense since she was probably with Naruto at the time Minato did his jutsu, and that would also explain why she left him and never try to meet him afterwards.

And that would be a great way to put her back in the story! :D

But, if you ask me, the biggest flaw in his plan, is to think that he can simply defeat Naruto. :tem

[niblack89]

Kakashi needs time to do that and like Mandara is going to let that happen

[M3J]

Madara can be defeated. In order to attack, he has to be tangible, and if one is fast, then Madara could be hit. Kyuubi's chakra or a bijuu's chakra could be great help, as it's unpredictable and can have mind of its own so Madara can't exactly see that and dodge it quickly enough. There's possibly a limitation to his power, one has to be the amount of time it takes to use the space/time ninjutsu.

[Thabor]

Kakashi can kamui his ass.

So far I'd say that or genjutsu seem like they would have the best chances.

Genjutsu doesn't require physical contact, so it seems like it could catch him while and potentially open him up for another technique.. While Kamui as another space/time jutsu seems like it would at least have a chance of disrupting Madara's ability to warp, also leaving a possible opening. Otherwise is the old standby of waiting until he gains "ultimate" power and gives up his defense.

[seya]

I think that he won't be able to carry out his plan anyway cause he can' t kill naruto .It's possible though that he could extract kuybi ,the development of the plot makes it very likely as naruto is learning to use his sage nature and to fight without kuuybi.
but then your theory gives an hint on how madara's plan could be screwed. I think of an other :sasuke. He 's a wild card , whatever madara says ,sasuke isn't on his side , and his eyes are powerful enough to control kuuybi.