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View Full Version : Outcome of the War between Marines and WB's Forces



Raysen_ht
August 22, 2009, 08:38 AM
So here is the deal... i was having this discussion in the Lonelobo's review of chapter 554 (great review Btw... go check it out) and i decided to create this thread to hear everybody's opinion...

Imo WB has the advantage completely... in fact, i cant even see a way for the WG to win. They simply have to many enemies...check it out:

WB is the strongest off all, so anyone fighting him 1 x 1 is bound to loose

His division commanders are MEGA strong! Marco is admiral level and Josu seems preety close to it... the others we dont know, but im sure they are plenty strong

Reylegh will SURELY fight to protect Roger's son!! And he is Admiral level

The NW capitains will keep the VA busy, and they also seem strong! Oars Jr. is amazing (we all saw how strong Oz was in TB)

There seems to be some kind of traitor/spy inside the Marine Headquarters and he opened the gate for Luffi... who knows what else he might do

Luffi (Strong) is bringing Jimbei (Uber strong), Iva(Mega strong), The black and white dude (strong) and Croc (Uber strong). I know that Croc wants to fight against WB, but Iva said that he can keep him under control. besides, Croc is not stupid... if he sees that the WG is going to loose, he will help destroy them, and have his fight with WB latter...

Boa will betray the governament and fight for Luffy! Her strenght was even aknowleged by Sengoku

Kuma has his own agenda... he might betray the WG too (I know this one is a longshot, but he did save the SH... twice, and against governament orders). He is one of the strongest Shishi

BB is not there to fight agins WB forces... he might have made a diference in this war, if he had stayed. We dont know what his plan is though... it may be the thing that put the odds agaisnt WB, but it doesnt seem like he wants to help the WG.

Dragon and the Revolutinares must try to use this oportunity to destroy their worst enemy!! just think about it... the execution of Ace was anounced a few days ago. Everybody knew that WB would go to war against the WG for that. Dragon had plenty of time to come up with a plan, and to gather his strongest fighters. The Revolutionares are a whole Army!! it will be like attacking the Marines with another force as big (even if its not as strong, its surely super strong) as the one WB brought.

There is another Yonkou who is not doing anything at the moment (Shanks and Kaidou are fighting...) and he/she might try to use this opportunity to destroy the loosing side of the WG x WB war

Thats it... What do you guys think??
__________________

BlackHair
August 22, 2009, 11:41 AM
WB needs to fall. The current King needs to be replaced bw a new one, Luffy. With fall I dont mean death. But he wont be much of a Yonko anymore; means his will be weaker so his fleet. Also by Luffy replacing WB, I dont mean it to happen in the current arc, just the his seat is for Luffy. And only now can be WBs throne taken away.

As for Dragon, his enemy is the World Goverment formed by over 170 Nations. So he has to fight each Nation one by one to break their alliance which is the World Goverment. So I dont think destroying the holyland would lead the war to his victory. Well thats at least the image I have now, could be wrong as well.

As for the current people: Garp Sengoku 3 Admirals Flamingo Moria and Mwk vs WB Jozu Marco Jimbei Luffy. As for the other I cant count them in atm.

Ace will be rescued but WB will fall (not death)! < My Prediction.

kkck
August 22, 2009, 12:31 PM
I think you are underestimating the VA. In terms of strength they should be second only to the admirals. garp is strong, he might even be at the admiral level or above. Sengoku is a wild card, who knows how strong the guy really is lol.

I also disagree on the part about luffy being "strong". That depends on who exactly you are comparing him with. I honestly doubt he could take any of the shichibukai there (even moria if the guy fights seriously). IMHO the VA should also be MILES above luffy. All in all as nyon and ovankov said, luffy just do not have the level to deal with the worlds strong guys. At best he might be able to take the mid level dudes there and even that would be hard. All in all luffy is a measly supernova a world class ROOKIE.

Raysen_ht
August 22, 2009, 01:28 PM
WB needs to fall. The current King needs to be replaced bw a new one, Luffy. With fall I dont mean death. But he wont be much of a Yonko anymore; means his will be weaker so his fleet. Also by Luffy replacing WB, I dont mean it to happen in the current arc, just the his seat is for Luffy. And only now can be WBs throne taken away.

WB may die, WB forces will defenetly be weakened, but the WB pirates + allies will win the war against the MH in the end! Thats my point... maybe i should change the title of the thread to "WB allience will win this war"...



As for Dragon, his enemy is the World Goverment formed by over 170 Nations. So he has to fight each Nation one by one to break their alliance which is the World Goverment. So I dont think destroying the holyland would lead the war to his victory. Well thats at least the image I have now, could be wrong as well.


Even if the Revolutionares won't win the war against the WG with this, they will take out a MAJOR part of the governament's power if they destroy the Marines! That could be the decisive step to dethrone the WG in the overall war that Dragon is having against them...
The fact is, He CAN'T let the oportunity to destroy such a big enemy slip by!!



As for the current people: Garp Sengoku 3 Admirals Flamingo Moria and Mwk vs WB Jozu Marco Jimbei Luffy. As for the other I cant count them in atm.

Ace will be rescued but WB will fall (not death)! < My Prediction.

Cmon... do you really think that Reylegh will let the son of his greatest friend, his capitain, of the one who trusted him to be his right man, die without even trying to save him?!? That doesn't fit with what we know about him... he has honor, and he is still loyal to Roger!!

And Boa?! She won't fight against Luffi!! That's for sure!

What about Iva?! He/She is a commander of the revolutionaries army!! Must be at top level (cant really count Maggelan victory... he is in a league of his own... 1 hit KOed all the BB pirates)!!

About Dragon i have already answeared

Do you really expect the 4th Yonkou to sit by and watch while this world changing events are happening??

I agree that Ace will be saved


I think you are underestimating the VA. In terms of strength they should be second only to the admirals. garp is strong, he might even be at the admiral level or above. Sengoku is a wild card, who knows how strong the guy really is lol.

I'm not underestimating the VA... The NW capitains have to be the strongest pirates after the Yonkou, and i just said that they could keep the VA busy! But in reallity, I think that if there are a few more capitains than VA, they might defeat them! They will, at least, take out some of them.

Garp is strong as hell but so is Reylegh. And WB is the strongest of all (Oda's words not mine), so even if Sengoku is strong he can be defeated by WB!



I also disagree on the part about luffy being "strong". That depends on who exactly you are comparing him with. I honestly doubt he could take any of the shichibukai there (even moria if the guy fights seriously). IMHO the VA should also be MILES above luffy. All in all as nyon and ovankov said, luffy just do not have the level to deal with the worlds strong guys. At best he might be able to take the mid level dudes there and even that would be hard. All in all luffy is a measly supernova a world class ROOKIE.

I was comparing Luffi with the other guys on his ship right now... He is not a waste of space as most of the people there... He is weaker than Jimbei/Croc/Iva, maybe a bit stronger or a bit weaker than the "black and white dude" (who's name i cant remember)! I agree with you, i doubt that Luffi can take any of the Shishi or the VA or the NW capitains as he is right now. He may be able to fight a couple of Rear admirals, but thats it.

kkck
August 22, 2009, 01:54 PM
3 Admirals plus 9 VA + rear admirals(they should be the last of the marines capable of making a difference in the war although not by much) + whatever random marine with too much strength for his rank. The last group would basically cover smoker and hina. Smoker has the power of logia, he should be quite capable of making a difference and hina was shown to be able to take mr 2 easily, she should be quite strong. Odds are there are more marines like that. The shichibukai vary is strength but mihawk is more than easily admiral level, kuma can just bitchslap people into oblivion, hancock is kinda a wild card but she should be one of the strongest shichibukai IMO. Moria is not to be taken lightly. The guy never really fought luffy head on and when he did he completely owned him. He should be above most NW captains IMO. Flamingo is another wildcard but I doubt he is any weaker than the rest.. The pacifista should also play a part in this war. I really doubt the WG will fail to have a bunch of those around and each of them is bound to be as strong as someone between mid and high tier. The final wild card should be sengoku. The guy should be insanely strong IMO.

The WB pirates side has WB, marco and josu. Those are the strongest on that side IMO. Then there are other 12 division captains who should be around VA level. The WB pirates should also have random strong members just as the marines though(equivalents to smoker and hina). The new world captains and crews should also be like that, a bunch of strong ones plus a few wild cards.

So basically we have:
Sengoku
3 Admirals
9 Vice admirals
rear admirals
Random strong marines
Shichibukai
Pacifista(this are extremely important IMO because they are extremely powerful and to some extent expendable)
+

Whitebeard
Marco, josu
12 remaining division commanders
Random strong WB pirates
NW captains + main strong crewmembers
NW pirate random strong members

Then we have crocodile, jimbei, luffy, ivankov and inazuma plus the rest who could include a few random strong dudes. Jimbei will either fight alongside WB or go along with luffy to rescue ace. Crocodile will likely be controlled by ivankov but he is by no means on WB side and will take a go at the first chance he's got. Ivankov should be quite strong and capable of making a difference IMO but will most likely not take direct fighting in the war. Inazuma was affected by magellans poison and is still recovering as far as we know so the guy will probably not take a part at all.

The last factor to consider is BB. He takes no side but his own but it stands to logic that he is mostly WB enemy. He should have something to gain from weakening the WG though. His crew is not all that big of a deal but BB himself should be considered as dangerous as an admiral or even WB himself. I just remembered shiryu joined his crew and he should be strong even when compared to strong dudes around. Probably whatever he does will determine the outcome of the war.... IMHO what he is looking for in ID is either a specific prisoner or to release the level six prisoners to take them to the war.

All in all, as things stand now, the WG and WB pirates are kinda even IMO. It is the unaccounted things which will decide the outcome of the war(such as BB or luffy freeing ace rather than fighting directly).

Raysen_ht
August 22, 2009, 02:26 PM
@kkck
Completely agree!! You described beatifully how things stand right now!!
I even said in my original post that BB's plan could be the thing that put the odds against WB (although it could also be the thing that buries the Marines for good... less likely but very possible)
The only mistake you made was to put all the Shishi on the WG side... Boa is defenetly fighting to save luffi's brother!! And she is one of the big players!

And i completely agree that "its unaccounted things that will decide the outcome of the war", i just think that these unaccounted things are overwhelmingly in WB's favour.. Check it:

...Reylegh (MAJOR allie)
...Dragon and the Revolutionares (a whole new (Uber strong) army to attack the Marines)
...Spy/Traitor that opened the Gates of Justice (He could spoil the strategie of the Marines)
...Luffi freeing Ace instead of fighting directly
...Kuma's possible treason (small chance)
...30% chance of BB plan be against the marines
...The 4th Yonkou (will help destroy the loosing side)

For the WG:
...70% chance of BB plan beeing against WB
...If there are hundreds of Pacifistas
...The 4th Yonkou (will help destroy the loosing side)
...50% chance that Iva will loose control over Croco and he will switch sides (even if he does, there are still enough strong fighters to counter him... especially if Luffi tell people what his weakness is)

Wouldn't you agree that the odds are in WB's favour?

And, IMHO, if Dragon attacks its game over! The marines wouldnt be able to couter WB allience + the revolutionary army

kkck
August 22, 2009, 03:38 PM
Dragon attacking is kinda unlikely though. In a way it is a good chance to hurt the WG but I have my doubts about the WG not having considered that. Also, dragon is fighting his own wars elsewhere so even if he appears, I doubt he will have an army behind him. Considering this war will be fought and won by a relatively small amount of fighters, dragon could make a big difference though.

I did not consider silver in my analisis but whether he will appear has yet to be decided. Considering he is a retired pirate I would find it weird that he decides to take part in this fight. Also, why would he side with WB? He was rogers crewmate and Wb enemy and there is no way for him to know that luffy will be there. He might take an interest in saving his nakema's son but we have no idea if he actually knows about it. Considering roger disbanded his crew, it is extremely likely he did not know anything.

The number of pacifista will also make a huge difference. Even if all the unaccounted things against the WG occur, a number of pacifista could make up for it. Just 20 pacifista could still keep things in balanced IMO.

Another thing I would find unlikely is that the yonkou take part in this fight. Even if they do take part, the most likely outcome is that they side against WB in an attempt to take his territory and become the PK. I would think the appearance of a yonkou other than shanks would mean mostly bad news for WB.

As for BB, whatever he does will most likely not help anyone but I do feel the one on the losing side from all this will be mostly WB. If BB does free ID prisoners and takes them to war, odds are most of them will be going against WB.

Then there is also the chance of magellan coming after luffy. The guy could have easily followed them considering there were several warships around ID. His appearance alone could change the balance in the favor of the WG. He could decimate large numbers of enemies instantly....

I guess it is kinda subjective and I do think ace will be ultimately rescued but IMHO WB having the advantage is highly debatable. I would think that more things can go wrong for him than for the WG.

ofir271
August 22, 2009, 05:46 PM
the war can go anyway and there are too many strong player there to do the math.

i think BB is going to do something major like opening a black hole under the war play ground that will suck everyone. i think he is about caos and about changing the balance in the world and what is a better chance for that then taking most of the major players in one go, and clearing the stage for himself and for the new era...

Drmke
August 22, 2009, 05:56 PM
I don't think there will be any "winner" in this war. I think both sides will suffer so many loses, neither could be considered the winner.

I am starting to like the theory of Blackbeard killing Whitebeard. But only after Whitebeard's crew has destroyed many marines. In this way, neither side truly wins, even with Whitebeard dying.

RichardMNixon
August 23, 2009, 11:45 AM
I also disagree on the part about luffy being "strong". That depends on who exactly you are comparing him with. I honestly doubt he could take any of the shichibukai there (even moria if the guy fights seriously). IMHO the VA should also be MILES above luffy. All in all as nyon and ovankov said, luffy just do not have the level to deal with the worlds strong guys. At best he might be able to take the mid level dudes there and even that would be hard. All in all luffy is a measly supernova a world class ROOKIE.

Oh, so Moria was just fooling around when the Straw Hat's destroyed everything he had worked so hard towards? After Oz and everything else, Luffy beat Moria in a one on one in which Moria also had 1000 shadows at his disposal. Luffy is better than he is.

I think the average VA is on the same level as Lucci; they seemed pretty reverent of him during the Buster Call. That said, there are a few VAs that would be out of his league (Garp and any other VA on the docket for promotion), and fighting a VA would probably be the extent of his action in the war; he's not up for fighting several of them. Smoker seems a more likely opponent though, and I think he's as strong or stronger than a typical VA.

Bo Ashi
August 23, 2009, 12:47 PM
If Rayleight appears, he'll be joining the party at the very end, popping up from the sea with Thousand Sunny, saving the day. I don't see how he could get there othervise.

I don't think Sengoku is much of a fighter really... of course he's strong, since he was fighting Whitebeard back in the days. But i think he'll rely on the admirals and vice admirals at first, and acts more of a leader and commander for the Marine side. I don't think he has a devilfruit or something, he just relies on his Haki and maybe a weapon. He and his goat will be the ones guarding Ace to the very end. Because that goat has to be something special, like a secret Vegapunk weapon or something. Would be awesome of it turned out to be one of the ancient weapons, though i doubt it, more like Funkfreed or the gun Mr 4 had back in Arabasta. Just a crazyass weapon.

bittman
August 23, 2009, 08:06 PM
You're forgetting Smoker. That's all I wanted to say...

And Sengoku too I guess.

Also:
Rayleigh probably won't turn up. He's not exactly an idiot who thinks himself to be a one man army and in his prime.
Boa may not betray. Just because Boa may know Luffy has appeared does not mean she will betray. I mean, she helped Luffy sneak into Impel Down to save Ace, and Ace is right behind her and she's yet to do anything. Despite appearances she is fearful of the WG given her past and dedication to the country she leads.
Kuma may not betray. He's about as predictable as an earthquake.
Spy/Traitor: yeah I'm already curious about this, could be Papagg for all we know though and not really an asset.
Blackbeard: won't appear. Should be busy in Impel Down, we should next see him with Magellan defeated and an anonymous prisoner in his grasp.
Dragon: won't appear? Sure it's a good chance, but it's also a good chance to revolutionise countries the marines have taken forces from to fight Whitebeard.

Few other things which I'm sure I've said before such as underestimating the Shichibukai, vice admirals, Garp/Smoker and Sengoku's true power, but meh.

The main reason I feel Whitebeard will lose is plot, not how their strength matches. I mean, honestly I can't see anyone in the marines who can kill Whitebeard, but at the same time Whitebeard winning against the WG is not too good for plot. Why would pirates be illegal if the WG was crushed?

...why am I writing this? I should be finishing my review...maybe...

LordZet
August 23, 2009, 09:36 PM
Well, if WB loses the marines will gain an enormous amount of power and fishmen island would go straight to hell when all the slavers and pirates rush back there now that WB is gone.

Fox666
August 23, 2009, 11:38 PM
Yeah, plot wins. If WB is down, them Fishmen Island arc would be a much more interesting saga. Also, what about Ace? If WB wins, them everybody are happy... and happy.

zagorka
August 25, 2009, 02:37 PM
Well, I never thought about Raleigh. It is possible, but I highly doubt it. I'd think the possibility of Shanks appearing would be more likely.

I agree with Bittman. Here's my take. Whitebeard will put up an amazing fight, but as we all know, he is not entirely well. He was seen on a life-support system and he is undoubtedly old. But what I want to say is that Whitebeard and Co. will continue to match the Marines. And even if Whitebeard does gain a good advantage, there is still one major problem that can potentially cause his downfall. That is Blackbeard. I believe that Blackbeard will not let this great opportunity pass and not take advantage of it. He's already thrown away his title as a Shichibukai. He will most likely wait until both sides have received casualties, and take down Whitebeard and the Marines himself. I'm sure the strongest will survive, barely, but that whole establishment of the World Government will be destroyed. This way, Blackbeard will make himself known to the whole world as they watch him defeat the Marines and Whitebeard. So for Blackbeard to become more popular, Whitebeard - The most powerful man in the world needs to fall. I'd prefer it if he'd die actually. The plot will progress, and Ace will be independent once more.

chess4
August 25, 2009, 03:53 PM
Well, I never thought about Raleigh. It is possible, but I highly doubt it. I'd think the possibility of Shanks appearing would be more likely.

I agree with Bittman. Here's my take. Whitebeard will put up an amazing fight, but as we all know, he is not entirely well. He was seen on a life-support system and he is undoubtedly old. But what I want to say is that Whitebeard and Co. will continue to match the Marines. And even if Whitebeard does gain a good advantage, there is still one major problem that can potentially cause his downfall. That is Blackbeard. I believe that Blackbeard will not let this great opportunity pass and not take advantage of it. He's already thrown away his title as a Shichibukai. He will most likely wait until both sides have received casualties, and take down Whitebeard and the Marines himself. I'm sure the strongest will survive, barely, but that whole establishment of the World Government will be destroyed. This way, Blackbeard will make himself known to the whole world as they watch him defeat the Marines and Whitebeard. So for Blackbeard to become more popular, Whitebeard - The most powerful man in the world needs to fall. I'd prefer it if he'd die actually. The plot will progress, and Ace will be independent once more.


yes i think whitebeard will die also. forgot the chapter but BB said that he would do something to shake the world to its core and killing WB may very well do it. if whitebeard is killed ace will not be independent, he will either continue sailing with the Whitebeards or join the strawhats.

ace will be saved but the Whitebeards will pay a huge price for his freedom.

DARK
August 25, 2009, 03:57 PM
Let's see the forces.

Whitebeard:
- Marco
- Jozu
- Oars Jr. (incapicitated, death [unconfirmed])
- Several New World pirates and their crews

World Government
- 5 of the seven Shichibukai
- All 3 Admirals
- Hundreds if not thousands of Marines

Considering how the Admirals and Shichibukai were matched by Jozu and Marco, as well as Whitebeard having a drastically much more powerful military force, I would say he will win the win. He himself is a freaking God for crying out loud! Sengoku said himself that this man alone had the power to destroy the world.

kkck
August 25, 2009, 08:39 PM
Shanks just got into a fight with kaido recently though. Is it possible he can fight another yonkou and then inmediatle head of to fight the WG alongside WB? Not to mention WB and shanks are in theory enemies and rivals.

Blendo
August 26, 2009, 01:27 AM
There is no way wb will win. as said earlier, if wb defeats the WG here, the story will be completely messed up.

LoS
August 26, 2009, 01:37 AM
World Government
- 5 of the seven Shichibukai
- All 3 Admirals
- Hundreds if not thousands of Marines

at least until Luffy and/or some other super power (Dragon/Rayleigh) show up.

Raysen_ht
August 26, 2009, 06:46 AM
There is no way wb will win. as said earlier, if wb defeats the WG here, the story will be completely messed up.

Not at all!!! There are many possibilities!! The world governament can have a separate army independant of the marines. The revolutionares could rise to power. BB might become the supreme ruler of the world. the yonkou could expand there influence and each of them could rule in one of the Blues...

Just because the Marines (not the WG) are defeated doesnt mean that the story will be "messed up".. you're underestimating GOD ODA-sensei *claps*.
Besides, the marines winning is what everybody expects... it would be a real twist if they were defeated

mugen
August 26, 2009, 08:32 AM
you think croc is gonna be ivan's bitch? you are wrong. rayligh might come but its not known if he will. And oars jr is not luffy's zombie oars so he won't be as strong or invincible. I doubt whitebeard pirates can take out shichibukai and marines, they're just too outnumbered even with luffy's aid. It all depends if more allies come but it doesn't seem likely, and why would dragon come? his enemy is the world government not the marines.

Raysen_ht
August 26, 2009, 08:50 AM
you think croc is gonna be ivan's bitch? you are wrong. rayligh might come but its not known if he will. And oars jr is not luffy's zombie oars so he won't be as strong or invisible. I doubt whitebeard pirates can take out shichibukai and marines, they're just too outnumbered even with luffy's aid. It all depends if more allies come but it doesn't seem likely, and why would dragon come? his enemy is the world government not the marines.

I said that that were a 50/50 chance of Croc fighting MH. Not just because Iva is blackmailing him, if he thinks that the Marines would loose, he would help take them out, he is not stupid, he wouldnt want to fight in the loosing side.

I know Oars is not as strong as zombie Oz, but i only mentioned him, to show that the NW capitains are not just fillers... they are very strong, and can make a difference

Too outnumbered?? WB; Marco; Joz; 11 other comandares; Jimbei; Iva; Boa (will fight for luffi); at least 7 NW capitains (but since there are 47 ships, i think its more likely to be 30~40 NW capitains); maybe (very likely) Reylegh; 50% Croc;
As things stand now, i think the forces are preety even... it could go eather way.

But, i cant see Dragon and teh revolutionares not showing up... Ok, their enemy is the WG not MH, but you cant deny that the marines are a good part of the Governamet forces... Its such a great opportunity!! Dragon knows that! It would compensate to loose some of the "liberated" countrys back to the WG, if it means destroying the marines... This is the biggest war of all time, its shaking the ballance of the world to the core, I simply cannot acept that Dragon would just sit by and watch as it happens.

D.King
August 26, 2009, 11:10 AM
I don't see any reason why Dragon will show up. IMO, the best idea for revolutionary army is to let WB and WG fight each others.

If WB win, REV army can take over the WG without loosing anything.

If WG win, still, they will surely lose a lot of forces, thus be a good chance for REV to obliterate the whole WG remaining.

Thus, I don't see any point Dragon will risk there comrade life by getting involved in this war. just my thought, feel free to comment

Dekker
August 26, 2009, 11:28 AM
I don't see any reason why Dragon will show up.

To watch over his son, probably.

kkck
August 26, 2009, 12:59 PM
How would he know luffy is going to be present at the battle though?

mugen
August 26, 2009, 02:41 PM
true, and crocodile broke out in the first place to kill whitebeard and nothing more! why would he fight against the marines directly? people seem to think crocodile is weak but he beat luffy twice!

sh4dx
August 27, 2009, 01:43 PM
the more we see i think that the marines+shich have the uper hand!even when luffy n co arrive i don't see them doing anything special.and the only sure is that bb will do something big.so the theories if "rayliegh,revolutianry,4th yonkou"etcetcetc are nothing..the only sure is that both sides at the end will be "half-powered" and maybe if ace will be saves but instead wb dies/fall the marines are still "winners"

DutchPhoenix
August 27, 2009, 04:08 PM
luffy will do jet giganto gatling and stomps half of the WG army

sh4dx
August 27, 2009, 04:21 PM
oh yes and moria will steal 10.000 of the remain marines fodders and will destroy the 47 NW ships.please..

don't count the fodders or numbers we talk just for the "big guys"

BetaRuler
August 27, 2009, 09:23 PM
I think Inazuma was too sick from Magellan to fight anymore I think, Ivan said he did some stuff to make himself feel better but at a cost of life, I don't think he's gonna be too spring to get his head kicked in again XD

This latest chapter just showed off the Shichi quite well too, even Moria has more power now, prolly thanks to his last battle where he was still learning just how much he could do with his shadow powers.

Im a supporter for the world government and Shichibukai, only because I think it will create more chaos than Whitebeards side would cause if they win. But in any case, Ace will need to be rescued, this is what Luffy has set himself out to do, before it was to beat up croc, or to beat up the pigeon guy, and this is his next step to save Ace (in lieu of beating some one up).

DSJump
August 30, 2009, 03:45 PM
Who said that anybody have to win? Maybe they just sae Ace and make a run for it? And WB dies protecting his crew. Somethhing like that :p

Lord Rayleigh
August 30, 2009, 05:47 PM
Actually, in this case, win the war " only " means that Ace survived. It does not mean that one of the both sides has to be completely destroyed : who expect each pirate or each marine to be killed ?
As I think Ace will not be executed, I guess I should say WB will win ; but that does not mean necessarily that WB will not die for example.

BlackHair
August 31, 2009, 02:23 AM
Yes exactly. Ace will be rescued, so the Pirates will win.

The WG's goal of the whole war is to eliminate every blood trace from the PK. If they fail then that means a loss for them, even if they manage to beat the WB Pirates.

The Pirates goal is to stop the execution. If they succeed it's a win for them.

sh4dx
August 31, 2009, 06:38 AM
yes they want to eliminate every blood relation to the PK but even if ace will be rescued but wb goes down/dies whatever i think that the marines will count that as a "win"

bax
August 31, 2009, 07:01 AM
I agree that the WG win is about putting down WB. The WG is expecting WB to show up. It's like they know this is their chance to lure out WB. Otherwise, if their goal is only to eliminate the Roger's blood, they would've killed Ace as soon as they got him in ID. Not that everyone else knows about Ace's real blood. So why is the need to announce it for public execution? As far as the public is concerned, Roger's blood died with him. There's no need to make an example of the Marines are so serious about killing Roger's descendants.

As for WB, of course, the only win for him is to save Ace, since that's the reason why they went to Marineford in the first place anyway.

Akainu
August 31, 2009, 07:52 AM
That's an interesting view on the current situation.
What would you consider Ace being saved, but WB dying as some predict? It's not really a tie for the pirate side imo and yet the WG would have failed miserably in publicly showing this desaster.

Lord Rayleigh
August 31, 2009, 08:18 AM
I agree that the WG win is about putting down WB. The WG is expecting WB to show up. It's like they know this is their chance to lure out WB. Otherwise, if their goal is only to eliminate the Roger's blood, they would've killed Ace as soon as they got him in ID. Not that everyone else knows about Ace's real blood. So why is the need to announce it for public execution? As far as the public is concerned, Roger's blood died with him. There's no need to make an example of the Marines are so serious about killing Roger's descendants.

Actually, I think their only goal is to eliminate Ace, but with a public execution like they did for the PK. They wanted the whole world to know and watch Ace's execution and expect it to have the impact they expected for the PK's execution. Indeed, they decided to kill the unique relative of Gol D Roger even if he was protected by the strongest pirate of the world : that is their means.
This time, they definitely want to put an end to piracy and show how strong they are ; this time, they want it to work : that is their goal.

Thus, their goal was not to kill WB. Nevertheless, as they said, in order to do the execution, they would fight WB if they had to (Sengoku's words). But I think it is obvious that they would have prefered not to fight against the " Ruler of the seas. " They would have prefered Ace to die without WB coming : that would have still shown that WB, the supreme pirate, could not have done/tried anything against them.
So now that the war has finally began and WB decided to move, they had to kill WB to achieve their goal because he is on their way.

That is how I see the thing. So, what will decide who will win the war is definitely the execution of Ace. Even if WB survived, if Ace is executed at the time he was supposed to, it will show that WB - the strongest man in the world - could not have saved Ace. All that matters is Ace's execution in due form.

deffkryz
August 31, 2009, 08:43 AM
I agree that the WG win is about putting down WB. The WG is expecting WB to show up. It's like they know this is their chance to lure out WB. Otherwise, if their goal is only to eliminate the Roger's blood, they would've killed Ace as soon as they got him in ID. Not that everyone else knows about Ace's real blood. So why is the need to announce it for public execution? As far as the public is concerned, Roger's blood died with him. There's no need to make an example of the Marines are so serious about killing Roger's descendants.

The World Government simply wants to show off their strength in wiping out the Gol bloodline and demonstrate their will power to fulfill their agenda "justice, as we interpret it to be" - even if they're going against the most feared man in the world. They want to show that they can do whatever they want at any time they want - and that's why the Marine is not fighting alone against WB.

I think it's easy like that to summarize.

Sure, they could have killed Ace in Impel Down, no even once Blackbeard handed im over and it would have been a success - but where's the victory in it if this execution was done in secret?

sh4dx
August 31, 2009, 08:54 AM
well you are almost correct about marines wanting to kill ace in public to show their power, but even if wb,luffy whatever succeed to free ace but instead the marines take down wb i think it's a "win" for them because as you said they will take down "the ruler of the seas".if they want to capture/kill ace they could have done this whenever they want but they couldn't because ace was under wb's protection.So yes typically if ace will be rescued the pirates win but if the marines take down wb they "win" and they can capture/kill ace whenever they want.

BlackHair
August 31, 2009, 10:34 AM
Well, the reason for the public execution is cause this is a (shounan) manga lol. This issue is handled in the same way in other manga, for example Cat's Eye; before every robbery they announce it public.

The public didn't know about Roger's son. Even Ace denied his relationship with his father. There was no need to announce all that hidden mystery followed by that public execution. They could have killed Ace in secret and later they could have faced WB.

To show their strenght? to whom? Killing one single guy, who hasn't really archived anything big doesn't show strenght, but taking out the current PK does!

deffkryz
September 01, 2009, 08:46 AM
Well, the reason for the public execution is cause this is a (shounan) manga lol. This issue is handled in the same way in other manga, for example Cat's Eye; before every robbery they announce it public.

No, real-time history proves that this does not happen because this is a shounen manga. Criminals were always executed because of making an example. It's murdering dissidents in an public execution.


The public didn't know about Roger's son. Even Ace denied his relationship with his father.

Well... That's a bit complicated... First I thought he denied it because he thought Dragon was his father but then Oda revealed he was already have a chat with Whitebeard (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/552/13/) about that.

BTW: But then why would Ace say in Impel Down that Luffy and he share the same blood of the World's Greatest Criminal...? May Luffy be one of Roger's lineage as well? :confused

I actually don't want to draw that theory but...

From now one I'll always have this theory buried in my head:

Luffy is Roger's son as well, but the one that prolonged his mothers pregnancy was Ivankov who learned from Rouge's pregnancy and was able to make Luffy's mother bare him longer and without dying once giving birth to him...

So... But who is Luffy's mother? Plain simple and wicked as possible (fasten your seatbelts' seatbelts) - it's Dragon who has been genderswapped by Ivankov in order to prevent him dying. That might explain why Dragon's behaviour when watching to the East Blue and why he helped Luffy in Loguetown...


You may do and say whatever you want now.


There was no need to announce all that hidden mystery followed by that public execution. They could have killed Ace in secret and later they could have faced WB.

Well, if Ace was already dead nothing would have weakened WB's wrath - no, I guess even some other Yonkou would have wreaked havoc too since there was no need for WB (nor Luffy) to keep Ace's lineage a secret any longer. And I'm pretty sure there still are many pirates out there that are loyal to Roger and his crewmen and would do anything for his son as Iva-san and Inazuma do for Dragon's...

It's hard enough against Whitebeard and his crew alone - but the Marine and the Shichibukai against more than one Yonkou and their allies. I expect at least Shanks to know about Ace and Roger - don't ask me why but I believe him to be one of the smartest and best informed Yonkou.


To show their strenght? to whom? Killing one single guy, who hasn't really archived anything big doesn't show strenght, but taking out the current PK does!

Whitebeard is not the King of Pirates! And sure the Marine has a lot of power - but their power ends in the New World. It's probably a well known sea to the Marine but as it seems they don't have anything but recon units out there.

BTW, Ace didn't achieve anything big? He was invited to become a shichibukai! That's nothing?! Look at those guys that are actually fighting right now... :blink

iKeno
September 01, 2009, 11:11 AM
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/473/18/

What if Kuma is actually an ally of Dragon and he went to confirm the relationship between Luffy and Ace? That would make things worst for the World Government...taking on Dragon and Whitebeard at the same time? WG will fault.

BlackHair
September 01, 2009, 11:32 AM
Honestly Im confused by ur post. Some of what u wrote doesn't fit as a answer to my post.


Criminals were always executed because of making an example. It's murdering dissidents in an public execution.
Do you rly think executing Ace in public frightens other pirates? Have u forgotten what happened after Roger's public execution? The great age of piracy started!



Well... That's a bit complicated... First I thought he denied it because he thought Dragon was his father but then Oda revealed he was already have a chat with Whitebeard (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/552/13/) about that.

BTW: But then why would Ace say in Impel Down that Luffy and he share the same blood of the World's Greatest Criminal...? May Luffy be one of Roger's lineage as well? :confused

I actually don't want to draw that theory but...

From now one I'll always have this theory buried in my head:

Luffy is Roger's son as well, but the one that prolonged his mothers pregnancy was Ivankov who learned from Rouge's pregnancy and was able to make Luffy's mother bare him longer and without dying once giving birth to him...

So... But who is Luffy's mother? Plain simple and wicked as possible (fasten your seatbelts' seatbelts) - it's Dragon who has been genderswapped by Ivankov in order to prevent him dying. That might explain why Dragon's behaviour when watching to the East Blue and why he helped Luffy in Loguetown...


You may do and say whatever you want now.
Roger as the pirate king and as the one who started the the pirate age is a one of the most hated man by the government. Even now his sins aren't forgotten. Dragon as the leader of the revolution army is the current most hated and most wanted man by the world government. So both guys are in their own way global scale criminals (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/525/02/).


Well, if Ace was already dead nothing would have weakened WB's wrath - no, I guess even some other Yonkou would have wreaked havoc too since there was no need for WB (nor Luffy) to keep Ace's lineage a secret any longer. And I'm pretty sure there still are many pirates out there that are loyal to Roger and his crewmen and would do anything for his son as Iva-san and Inazuma do for Dragon's...

It's hard enough against Whitebeard and his crew alone - but the Marine and the Shichibukai against more than one Yonkou and their allies. I expect at least Shanks to know about Ace and Roger - don't ask me why but I believe him to be one of the smartest and best informed Yonkou.

I completely confused by this part of ur post. What exactly has it to do with the quoted part of mine?

I mean killing Ace in secret is a more easier way for the world government. Or at least killing him without announcing that he is the son of the PK. This way MHQ would have less opponents.



Whitebeard is not the King of Pirates! And sure the Marine has a lot of power - but their power ends in the New World. It's probably a well known sea to the Marine but as it seems they don't have anything but recon units out there.

BTW, Ace didn't achieve anything big? He was invited to become a shichibukai! That's nothing?! Look at those guys that are actually fighting right now... :blinkHe archived nothing big. Even if he was invited to the Shichi, he alone has no real power (as in influence etc). What the point in taking out the current Ace? The government only fears the future Ace (PK). But the current is nothing.

By taking out WB or the other Yonko, or Dragon would have better benefits than killing (current) Ace. I mean those guy have a mighty crew, are feared my many and are a hindrance for the WG. All Im saying is that killing Ace in public doesn't show strength!

WB is not the pirate king, but that guy is the definition of the current pirate age. He was hyped since his introduction. So I staed him as the PK. But that has of no relevance.


http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/473/18/

What if Kuma is actually an ally of Dragon and he went to confirm the relationship between Luffy and Ace? That would make things worst for the World Government...taking on Dragon and Whitebeard at the same time? WG will fault.Why don't u read some other post at the first page. The theory was brought since the chapter. Nothing new..

deffkryz
September 01, 2009, 12:43 PM
Honestly Im confused by ur post. Some of what u wrote doesn't fit as a answer to my post.

Yeah, I had the same feeling when I read your answer on my post.


Do you rly think executing Ace in public frightens other pirates? Have u forgotten what happened after Roger's public execution? The great age of piracy started!

Nope. It started 22 years ago when Grand Line died - a given fact since the very start of One Piece. The marines want to end this age with wiping out the PK's blood line and show that not even the one who is said to be the strongest man in the world was able to prevent this.


Roger as the pirate king and as the one who started the the pirate age is a one of the most hated man by the government. Even now his sins aren't forgotten. Dragon as the leader of the revolution army is the current most hated and most wanted man by the world government. So both guys are in their own way global scale criminals (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/525/02/).

That doesn't resolve that paradoxon Oda created by showing that Ace knew that he is Roger's son on one hand and Garp's statement Luffy was Dragon's son - in Impel Down Ace and Garp were talking about Dragon.


I mean killing Ace in secret is a more easier way for the world government. Or at least killing him without announcing that he is the son of the PK. This way MHQ would have less opponents.

Yeah, but Whitebeard could have strike anywhere else. That's why they were luring him and his allies to Marinford - to counter him at one place.


He archived nothing big. Even if he was invited to the Shichi, he alone has no real power (as in influence etc). What the point in taking out the current Ace? The government only fears the future Ace (PK). But the current is nothing.

Commander of WB's 2nd division - means nothing... Er, right. :eyeroll


By taking out WB or the other Yonko, or Dragon would have better benefits than killing (current) Ace. I mean those guy have a mighty crew, are feared my many and are a hindrance for the WG. All Im saying is that killing Ace in public doesn't show strength!

It shows strength because if they succeded they would have done it even with Whitebeard in front of them, helpless to fullfil that promise to one of his sons. Everyone who dares to attack or kill one of WB's crew is about to die himself. And they couldn't fight one of the Yonkou because another Yonkou would have taken revenge.

One Yonkou is serious enough. Fighting a second one after having defeated one is nearly impossible unless you're bringing up some real heavy guns. Now, they made Whitebeard attack them - neither Shanks nor Kaidou is about to support him nor will they take revenge in case WB dies/loses.

And Dragon...the CP9 already failed to kill him - and they were the WG's secret assassins.

BlackHair
September 01, 2009, 01:24 PM
Nope. It started 22 years ago when Grand Line diedIt is fact that Roger started with his last words (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/506/14/) the great age of piracy (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/1/01/). And I dont understand what u mean by "grand line died".



That doesn't resolve that paradoxon Oda created by showing that Ace knew that he is Roger's son on one hand and Garp's statement Luffy was Dragon's son - in Impel Down Ace and Garp were talking about Dragon.hm.. aren't u thinking too hard? It much more easier. .

At first we were believed to think that Ace's father is Dragon, since Luffy called him oni-san. That's why we tought Garp and Ace were talking about him (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/525/02/). Later, with Sengoku's announecment (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/550/18-19/) and with Garp's flashback on his conversation with Ace in ID (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/551/07/), it was clear that they were talking about Roger and Dragon. Roger in connection with Ace and Dragon in connection with Luffy.



Commander of WB's 2nd division - means nothing... Er, right. :eyeroll
I mean nothing as in no influence. It's just as u said, WBs 2nd division commander. But that is WB's influence, what has Ace on his own? what did he archive on the grand line? nothing yet (or at least, we haven't been informed of anything). Plz read this post (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1139603&postcount=134), u may better understand what I referring to.

Even now he is only getting executed because he is the son of the Pirate King. Yet another achievement of someone else.



One Yonkou is serious enough. Fighting a second one after having defeated one is nearly impossible unless you're bringing up some real heavy guns. Now, they made Whitebeard attack them - neither Shanks nor Kaidou is about to support him nor will they take revenge in case WB dies/loses.

And Dragon...the CP9 already failed to kill him - and they were the WG's secret assassins.
I was actually saying that if u take out the Yonko or Dragon u will show more strenght in the world. But taking out Ace, who isn't so big as the other, wont proof strength. So basically the only reason for Ace's execution is his ties with his father. And the WG doesn't intend to show their power, well thats at least my opinion.

Also where did u get the CP9 and Dragon information? Did I missed sth?

modoki
September 01, 2009, 01:48 PM
I highly doubt this. During the meeting with shanks on WB's ship. Shanks already foretold the future in a form of a warning.

Clearly Blackbeard will somehow kill Whitebeard which fits a whole lot better.

Whitebeard will battle an individual he has respect for. Clearly, WB only has respect for only a few people ( Garp, Sengoku, Roger). In this situation, duh, Sengoku. And well Sengoku is titled the Buhdda for a reason.


How I see it
As soon as BB and his crew reaches level one in Impel Down, Shiryuu will offer his thanks to Magellan and take his life. They will all leave Impel Down to the war before heading to the new world. Right there should be a missing gap, meaning i have no idea. Then, Afterwards, BB will take WB's life simple.

Note: If Blackbeard somehow had the guts and power to put a scar on the mighty Shank's face then.. go figure.


The war's outcome? Whitebeard will not win this war and neither will the marines. This is pretty much a big advancement for Blackbeard. AS far as the marines go, this war will badly ruin their rep as well as the big rep that was all of a sudden lost at impel down. The Gorousei will make a big move due to this. Blackbeard will most likely take WB's role as strongest pirate and Yonkou. We should start rolling into the dark ages after the war. Besides people, BB is still kinda young WB is the direct opposite, and nothing lasts forever.


Dragon? Even though this war is highly anticipated, I highly doubt Dragon will have an important role in this war. Although this is a big opportunity to wipe out many high ranking officials in one place. Let's not forget the Gorousei are the ones calling the shots.
Dragon may make an appearance, but it will not be anything like a serious 1 on 1 with Admiral OMG.

Lord Rayleigh
September 01, 2009, 04:35 PM
I agree with deffkryz.

If they decided to kill Ace by this way, it is because they want to show how strong they are : they can keep a WB commander in jail and kill him in front of everyone's eyes if they want to. Nobody, not even WB, the strongest pirate (and also man) can stop them, even if he has enough time to come and try to stop them.
Thus, this is a warning - by their strenght - to all the pirates because they want to stop the great age of piracy. So, all they want is to kill Ace in due form as they said (a long time ago) it will happen. That is the necessary means to achieve their goal.

As you said, blackhair, it would have been easier to kill Ace after they captured him. But that would have not allowed them to achieve their goal, the one deffkryz and I talked about in our previous posts.

BlackHair
September 02, 2009, 02:48 AM
I rly don't understand what u guys mean by showing of their strenght. They intented to show their strenght and to put an end to the pirates by killing the Pirate King 22 years ago. But that was a complete failure, with his death and his last words the great age of piracy begun. So now by killing Ace, what do they intend to proof? Imo nothing. There is a huge difference between the Pirate King and Ace. Roger has archived much more. Ace has yet to archive anything. So by killing Ace u cant show ur strenght, only by taking out WB. But with Sengoku's announcement it is clear, that they only intend to kill any blood relation to the king.

So the war has nothing to do with WB or the try to regain the supreme control over the NW or showing of strength by killing Ace, who isn't a threat yet. It is merely because Ace ties with Roger, and that's the only fact.

Well just agree to disagree.. there is no need to discuss it any further. :)

@modoki (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/member.php?u=93269): Ur post has nothing to do with mine. So I guess u were not referring to me.

Though I agree with the BB vs WB prediction. BB will take him in a sneaky way down. Also about the Shanks vs BB encounter, that was off-panel. And that scar only hints BB threat for the world, nothing more at this point, sine we don't the circumstances about their fight.

deffkryz
September 02, 2009, 06:24 AM
It is fact that Roger started with his last words (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/506/14/) the great age of piracy (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/1/01/). And I dont understand what u mean by "grand line died".

Sorry, I meant "Gold Roger died" ... I was replacing abbreviations I used in the first place, reviewing one of the OnePiecePedia articles and then was posting in another forum too... Just total chaos. :s But now it's just 100% MH.


hm.. aren't u thinking too hard? It much more easier. .

Actually... I didn't think that much, that theory just popped up into my mind. I just had to post it after there were some theories, fanarts and fake spoilers that Ivasan was going to genderswapping either Ace or Luffy or both and then did it to himself twice.


At first we were believed to think that Ace's father is Dragon, since Luffy called him oni-san. That's why we tought Garp and Ace were talking about him (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/525/02/). Later, with Sengoku's announecment (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/550/18-19/) and with Garp's flashback on his conversation with Ace in ID (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/551/07/), it was clear that they were talking about Roger and Dragon. Roger in connection with Ace and Dragon in connection with Luffy.

Yeah, I know that. But what I'm curious about is that Garp just spilled the beans out that Dragon was Luffy's father as Luffy blabbed that Roger was Ace's father - but then Garp kept that secret all the time. Or maybe he didn't? Man, I don't know - those small pieces of information keep confusing me, and all I can say is: The door isn't closed yed that Dragon is not Luffy's father.


I mean nothing as in no influence. It's just as u said, WBs 2nd division commander. But that is WB's influence, what has Ace on his own? what did he archive on the grand line? nothing yet (or at least, we haven't been informed of anything). Plz read this post (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1139603&postcount=134), u may better understand what I referring to.

He was getting really fast to the Grand Line and became commander of the 2nd division of the Whitebeard Pirates after being invited to become a shichibukai. That's even more than Luffy's influence actually because the WG recognized him as powerful and WB recognized him as someone who's worthy of being his representative. WB protects many islands, so does Ace as his representative.

Ace would have never gotten that acknowledgment without being strong (fighting Jinbei for 5 days!) nor having influence (Ace was in Wano and obviously became a friend of its citizens).


Even now he is only getting executed because he is the son of the Pirate King. Yet another achievement of someone else.

No, the Marine wanted to execute him in the first place, because he's a pirate. They got him to the MHQ because he's one of WB's sons - they could have never placed that execution to Baterilla nor Windmill Village because Marineford has the best defenses.

Defending the main base against Whitebeard and 43 Pirates from the New World and continue "as planned" with Ace's execution is still not showing strength to you? It's not the execution itself that was never part of my argument since Ace has Seastone handcuffs - it's doing what they planned and making WB's attack an engagement that created losses but that were acceptable to show that they were able to hold WB back.


I was actually saying that if u take out the Yonko or Dragon u will show more strenght in the world. But taking out Ace, who isn't so big as the other, wont proof strength. So basically the only reason for Ace's execution is his ties with his father. And the WG doesn't intend to show their power, well thats at least my opinion.

Well... Both the Marine HQ and the Shichibukai are under the WG'S command. Both of those two main players were founded by them - so if one of them shows their power against the yonkou, the WG does it as well.


Also where did u get the CP9 and Dragon information? Did I missed sth?

Spandam had a chat about that mission in his bureau with Jabura, Kumadori and Fukurou in chapter 375: They missed Dragon but killed 23 other persons.

BlackHair
September 02, 2009, 07:26 AM
If they defeat WB and execute Ace, then it would show strenght. But if they would lose to WB and still execute Ace, it wouldn't show strenght.

The reasons why Ace is executed in public with all that commotion is cause he is the son of Roger and WB' crewmate. By taking out Ace, the world wouldn't change. But if u take out WB it certainly does. Ace is just a small fry, compared to other big shots (Dragon, Yonko).

Yes Ace did some pretty stuff on the grand line. But is it worth of a public execution to show strenght? Certainly not. He is and I repeat only to be executed (with all that commotion) cause of his ties to WB and Roger.



Spandam had a chat about that mission in his bureau with Jabura, Kumadori and Fukurou in chapter 375: They missed Dragon but killed 23 other persons."The plan was to kill the rebellion leader. A total of three targets were to be eliminated. But u killed 23 people."

So they most likely killed the rebellion leader and 22 other persons. For sure it was just a national scale rebellion leader, like Corsa from Alabasta. Not an international scale leader like Dragon.


He was getting really fast to the Grand Line and became commander of the 2nd division of the Whitebeard Pirates after being invited to become a shichibukai. That's even more than Luffy's influence actually because the WG recognized him as powerful and WB recognized him as someone who's worthy of being his representative. WB protects many islands, so does Ace as his representative.

Ace would have never gotten that acknowledgment without being strong (fighting Jinbei for 5 days!) nor having influence (Ace was in Wano and obviously became a friend of its citizens).
It seems I do have underestimated Ace, with the current development with Oars Jr.. well that is certainly influence.

But, according to Sengoku WB took Ace to protect him from the WG. Since he is the son of his former rival. Not necessarily cause of his strenght. But getting the position of a division commander is due to his strenght.

Anyway u shouldn't underestimate Luffy's achievement. If in case he should be executed: Alabasta could move, Sky Pia could move, Drum could move.

Outside of his achievement: Dragon could move. To proof his strenght: He has beaten two of the 7 warlords and CP9.



The door isn't closed yed that Dragon is not Luffy's father.
Garp stated Dragon as Luffy's father and even Kuma did. I think the door is closed for sure.



Defending the main base against Whitebeard and 43 Pirates from the New World and continue "as planned" with Ace's execution is still not showing strength to you?Yes it is.

But do u think that the MHQ wanted that to happen?! I mean WB is out there for 22 years, why of all time now? Now lets put our attention to this moment. (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/551/09/)

It means that they wanted to kill him cause they fear that he might stand later at the pirate summit just like his father did. So they fear the blood which flows in him.

The reason why Ace is executed in public with all that commotion: Plz read this page and the following one (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/551/08/).

It is clear that they fear the future Ace, since the blood of the king is flowing through his veins. The fear a new King who might stand at the pirate summit.

To proof strenght? to whom? plz answer that.

deffkryz
September 02, 2009, 10:09 AM
To proof strenght? to whom? plz answer that.

To the world, man - was that really that unclear? Everyone fears Whitebeard because of his personal - and since Roger's death - unique strength. If they show that they have the strength to stop him while he attacks with all his might and prevented him from rescueing Ace, isn't that a proof of their strength. Do you really expect this outcome to be less than a foot note? This is a very equal headline to that Ace is Roger's son and that they executed him.

And if I take a quick look at that "spoiler"... You're just playing games, aren't you?

BTW:

Anyway u shouldn't underestimate Luffy's achievement.

I certainly won't but Ace achieved simply more.

BlackHair
September 02, 2009, 11:08 AM
Im not playing any games. I just though that useless long post can be reduced. Anyway, this will be my last post on this matter. Since we have already begun to repeat our arguments. Also our posts doesn't seem to reach each other.


To the world, man
There are weak points in that simple view of urs.

Certainly taking out WB will have an huge impact on the pirate world. But on the same time, the MHQ will have suffered huge losses. With that they still have to face the remaining Yonko and other outlaws such as Dragon. If the MQ loses fighting power with the WB war, then they don't have the necessary force to face the other. Do u understand where Im going?

Proofing strenght might be one thing, but the risks are too high. What is the point in proofing strenght, if u don't have the neccary power to fight after the WB war with the remaining outlaws? Not to mention that WB is protecting some islands. If he goes down, those Island are unprotected.

The world will be in chaos, hence shift of era.

Yet the WG (who desperately wanted to keep the balance of the three great powers) started a war with WB. And the reason for that like I already said in previous posts, is to eliminate Ace. They had no intention to go in war with WB (otherwise they would have done it sooner). It just happens to be a crew-mate of him, that's why things have developed like this. Sengoku made it clear, that their only goal is to erase every blood relation to Roger.

They had no intention to proof strenght with all that risks. Even if they take down WB, pirates such as the Yonko and SN (Luffy) and also Dragon probably won't stop moving. Basically guys with a huge ambition won't stop moving. Probably only those weak fodder. That's why I asked "to whom?". Since this "show of power" message is just futile in my eyes. But I guess we havea different opinion on that.. .

modoki
September 03, 2009, 12:13 PM
I honestly think Garp will snap at sengoku before WB does.

tasuki00
September 07, 2009, 02:33 PM
My initial thought was the WG was going to be destroyed because the trend was all it's main buildings were getting hit and Luffy's bounty is already pretty much in the upper echelons but then I thought the WG's presence is kinda important because it has all the bounties and otherwise no one is considered pirates and there's no one to chase them or provide an antagonistic role. But since luffy showed up right in the thick maybe the battle can end quickly without to much fighting even though oda never lets things be that simple. I also thought WB was going to die soon just because he was hooked up to IV's and it's supposed to be the end of an era and he would be the easiest character to get rid of.

ScratchmenApoo
September 30, 2009, 02:42 PM
I don't think there's this kind of poll made yet, I just want to see what the majority of the people think about this war. Just select, what you think suits your personal opinion the most. I've allowed multiple options, because for example, if you think that Ace will be executed, the war may still end with World Government being crushed (if that is your opinion)
I personally think, that the war will end with Ace being rescued and noone dieing.

madmotoristmonk
September 30, 2009, 08:21 PM
I'm still very curious as to what BlackBeards got planned for the whole world.

I'm 100% sure he didn't claw his way into the ranks of the shichibukai, just so he could get an M.Bison look alike in his crew. Hell, I'm 100% sure he didn't even know Shuriyu was even there. Magellan locked him up ages ago

http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/543/03/

see here, he doesn't even recognize him,:(

Also on the topic, I don't see whitebeard coming out on top in this one. To have all this buildup, all this tension and drama, just to have Whitebeard save the day and then sail off. Sorry, to easy. Besided Oda is a much better writer than that

Poneglyph420
September 30, 2009, 08:53 PM
I'm still very curious as to what BlackBeards got planned for the whole world.

I'm 100% sure he didn't claw his way into the ranks of the shichibukai, just so he could get an M.Bison look alike in his crew. Hell, I'm 100% sure he didn't even know Shuriyu was even there. Magellan locked him up ages ago

http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/543/03/

see here, he doesn't even recognize him,:(

Also on the topic, I don't see whitebeard coming out on top in this one. To have all this buildup, all this tension and drama, just to have Whitebeard save the day and then sail off. Sorry, to easy. Besided Oda is a much better writer than that


I think that Whitebeard will achieve exactly what he wanted to, saving Ace.
That being said he will have to take some losses and probably get hurt in the fighting. He could die, but I see BB killing him, just as Luffy and Ace sail away....

I'm pretty sure BB went to Impel Down to recruit, but Prob. didn't expect to meet Shiryuu. I almost hope he gets some other "fodder pirates" to help him fight WB and crew... I think what we are witnessing now is the "ultimate show......"

I have to agree BB seems to be the one possible "radical" remaining in the war equation...

BlackHair
October 01, 2009, 05:34 AM
Ace will be saved, however they will lose WB. Means he will either die, knocked out, put in coma or w/e. Either way he won't be able to lead the WB priates.

And I don't think BB went to ID to recruit. I rather believe he want to get sth there.

Ishido
October 01, 2009, 10:20 AM
I'm also go with a Blackbeard related theory. I'm thrilling to see what's the ultimate show that Blackbeard referred in chapter 544 (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/544/15/). It must be something related to whatever he is looking for in ID, be it a weapon or a new big character.

ScratchmenApoo
October 01, 2009, 11:15 AM
What's the probability of Blackbeard showing up in this war ? I'm sensing very high. The question is who he attacks. Whitebeard, The Marines, Both ?

BlackHair
October 01, 2009, 11:57 AM
WB first. He can betray the WG after defeating the strongest pirate.

Natsu Dragonil
October 01, 2009, 03:19 PM
Did BB state that he wants WB dead.I mean he can became PK without killing like Roger did.Besides wouldnt it be smarter to kill the weaket of the yunkou before u go to the strongest?

I believe that the war will end in a draw cause if the WG looses everything will get messed up in the world and if Wb dies the NW will get more dangerous casue WB isnt there to protect certain islands.

Razh
October 01, 2009, 03:31 PM
I don't think Blackbeard will go after Whitebeard in this battle. He was hiding under someone stronger for probably half of his life. He won't risk coming to Marineford with his little crew.
Person like him will more likely wait for the battle to end, and then go after Whitebeard, should he survive.

Poneglyph420
October 01, 2009, 03:50 PM
I don't think Blackbeard will go after Whitebeard in this battle. He was hiding under someone stronger for probably half of his life. He won't risk coming to Marineford with his little crew.
Person like him will more likely wait for the battle to end, and then go after Whitebeard, should he survive.

Exactly he's like a scavenger, a evil worm. He would most likely try to catch WB injured if possible and then take him out..

BlackHair
October 01, 2009, 04:42 PM
I don't think Blackbeard will go after Whitebeard in this battle. He was hiding under someone stronger for probably half of his life. He won't risk coming to Marineford with his little crew.
Person like him will more likely wait for the battle to end, and then go after Whitebeard, should he survive.
U just made a nice point. And honestly I see that coming. BB is sneaky, that scenario would suit him well.


Did BB state that he wants WB dead.I mean he can became PK without killing like Roger did.Besides wouldnt it be smarter to kill the weaket of the yunkou before u go to the strongest?Well as far as we know, the other Yonko gives a crap about BB, except maybe Shanks. But I don't see him hunting BB. But I can see WB hunting BB. That's why I thought this war would be the only opportunity for BB to take out WB. So to avoid the wrath of the mightiest, BB take his chance to kill WB, like Croco tried.

Poneglyph420
October 01, 2009, 04:56 PM
I agree with blackhair to some extent..
I think BB is coming after WB and perhaps to take out the greatest challenge at the easiest time possible.

http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/434/12/

After reading this I basicly thought it was only a matter of time..

Franckie
October 02, 2009, 01:09 AM
I don't think Blackbeard will go after Whitebeard in this battle. He was hiding under someone stronger for probably half of his life. He won't risk coming to Marineford with his little crew.
Person like him will more likely wait for the battle to end, and then go after Whitebeard, should he survive.

What makes you think BB won't show up to fight? This entire war is his doing and he promised the world to give it a show that will shake it to its very core within the next few hours. Keep in mind that it hasn't been explained yet why BB went to ID with his Shichibukai title at stake. If I had to take a guess, he will show up at MHQ with an army of prisoners who are all itching to take WB's head and cause havoc in the NW.

ScratchmenApoo
October 02, 2009, 03:24 AM
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/440/10/

Will Dragon see the World Government being unstable and take this as an opportunity to destroy the "Justice" and meet with Luffy ? I am not sure where his location with his rebel army is, but I think it's way too far for him to get there so fast. But still, what would happen when Dragon shows up with his army ?

Razh
October 02, 2009, 06:58 AM
What makes you think BB won't show up to fight? This entire war is his doing and he promised the world to give it a show that will shake it to its very core within the next few hours. Keep in mind that it hasn't been explained yet why BB went to ID with his Shichibukai title at stake. If I had to take a guess, he will show up at MHQ with an army of prisoners who are all itching to take WB's head and cause havoc in the NW.

Well it's only my opinion but I can clarify the reasons why I think so in little more detail. You see, you might be wrong when you say that Blackbeard put his Shichibukai title at stake. He said that it was all part of the plan (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/544/08/) , possibly meaning that he only wanted to become a Shichibukai so he could get in a position to get to Impel Down.
Maybe he does want to free some people from lv. 6, but not all of them. Some of those guys are likely to attack him the moment they come out of their cells.
Also, if it was his plan to get into Impel Down all along, then it means that he always planned to catch Ace, predicted that WG will execute him in Marineford and that Whitebeard will come with his fleet. I don't find that to be likely. Especially since Luffy was his first target, and Impel Down was always part of the plan.

All I'm saying is that getting involved in this battle was never part of Blackbeard's plan. He couldn't have predicted everything. Also, he'd be stupid to go after Whitebeard now, because he's still not strong enough. Whitebeard would have raped him.

Shadoguardian
October 02, 2009, 07:12 AM
Personally, I think that they manage to save Ace and escape, but WB gets careless in the process and gets fatally wounded.

Razh
October 02, 2009, 07:22 AM
I don't think Whitebeard gets careless. The way he handled Buggy shows that he doesn't leave much to chance.
Can't imagine Whitebeard pulling a Gandalf on the bridge of Khazad-dum...

goldb
October 02, 2009, 08:24 AM
I don't think Whitebeard gets careless. The way he handled Buggy shows that he doesn't leave much to chance.
Can't imagine Whitebeard pulling a Gandalf on the bridge of Khazad-dum...

Lol good one, WB is an oldtimer, he's seen it all and my guess is this isn't his first war or big battle so he knows where mistakes are made and how to avoid them. But someone elsewhere mentioned that WB may die naturally or something.

It would be a fitting end for him to sacrifice himself for the future era and save Ace in the process.

But whichever way the balance swings, te world will be in chaos. If the pirates win which I don't see as being very likely, there will be no opposing force to stabilise the seas, if the Marines win, the NW will be in chaos as everyone will be trying to make a move onto WB's territory or gunning for his place as a yonko.

I'm really looking forward to the outcome...

ANBU4U
October 03, 2009, 02:44 AM
Well, a few things...

I think this war will end in a relative draw between WB and the MHQ, with WB having the slight edge because he retrieves Ace (thus the Marines lose face), however WB's side will undoubtedly pay with some sort of grave handicapping....be it WB's losing the ability to fight himself (he won't die) or something of that nature.

I also expect personal loss for Luffy..which can only come in the form of Ace or Garp. Only one of those seems likely to me. See above.

Ultimately, it will be Blackbead that tips the scales in the "Pirates" favor. I dont know what he's gonna do, but whatever it is will come as the WB armada is retreating with Ace. Either after, coincidentally keeping the Marines from being able to pursue/rally, or during...literally causing WB's retreat.

Also, I am a fan of the theory that Blackbeard is trying to release the infamous prisoners in level 6 in order for them to join his crew for a few reasons:

1. Oda does nothing randomly. He didn't have Iva-san mention several infamous names so that we can never hear them again.
2. If all the names join Blackbeard that would give him 8 crew mates, the exact number Luffy has at the moment (not including the Captains.) Luffy wants 10 crew members in total, not including himself, (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/1/52/) right now Luffy is two short. Its pretty clear at this point that Blackbeard is Luffy's foil. I expect both of their crews to be full by the time they enter the NW. This helps get that done, minus two crew members each...
I think that one of each crews last members will have some sort of connection with one another, officially putting the two crews at odds...but at any rate the names of the level 6 prisoners mentioned by Ivankof are:


San Juan Wolf
Catrina Devon
Basco Shot

It won't end there though, as others have mentioned that just not big enough to shake the world in and of its self....there has to be something else hidden in Impel Down that Blackbeard needed access to...and he probably just thought "why now find some worthy Nakama while I'm there".

No clue what it will be though, my heart says ancient weapon (he needs a new ship), but my head says too obvious.

We'll see soon enough.

Captain Kidd
October 05, 2009, 07:01 AM
What's the probability of Blackbeard showing up in this war ? I'm sensing very high. The question is who he attacks. Whitebeard, The Marines, Both ?

Obviously Whitebeard. Why would you think he would go for the bloody Marines?


I don't think Blackbeard will go after Whitebeard in this battle. He was hiding under someone stronger for probably half of his life. He won't risk coming to Marineford with his little crew.
Person like him will more likely wait for the battle to end, and then go after Whitebeard, should he survive.

Durrrr, ignore "IM GONNA SHAKE THE WORLD IN A FEW HOURS" and Oda's repeated references to an incident that "shocked the world".

He's coming to the war. There is no doubt about it.


Exactly he's like a scavenger, a evil worm.

1/ He isn't a scavenger in any sense of the word, ffs he went toe-to-toe with Ace to take his head.

2/ Blackbeard isn't evil.


All I'm saying is that getting involved in this battle was never part of Blackbeard's plan.

*Aforementioned repeated references to a world-shaking incident*


He couldn't have predicted everything.

Of course not, but he's playing the hand dealt to him.

It's fate, as Blackbeard would say.


Also, he'd be stupid to go after Whitebeard now, because he's still not strong enough. Whitebeard would have raped him.

You have no idea what sort of plan he has cooked up.

Why do you keep ignoring giant hints given directly by the author in the manga?


Personally, I think that they manage to save Ace and escape, but WB gets careless in the process and gets fatally wounded.

Ace and Whitebeard are going to die.


I think this war will end in a relative draw between WB and the MHQ, with WB having the slight edge because he retrieves Ace (thus the Marines lose face),

This would be one of the stupidest things ever.


A WORLD SHAKING APOCALYPTIC BATTLE BETWEEN THE TWO BIGGEST FORCES IN THE WORLD

ENDING IN A DRAW


I also expect personal loss for Luffy..which can only come in the form of Ace or Garp. Only one of those seems likely to me. See above.


Ace will be executed. Whitebeard will also die.


He didn't have Iva-san

Do you realise how weeabooish that sounds


It won't end there though, as others have mentioned that just not big enough to shake the world in and of its self....there has to be something else hidden in Impel Down that Blackbeard needed access to...and he probably just thought "why now find some worthy Nakama while I'm there".

Ace's capture was referred to directly by Oda as the trigger for the great event to come.

Finding something hidden in Impel Down would be completely underwhelming and horrible writing, from any standpoint.

Razh
October 05, 2009, 07:49 AM
You can shock the world in more ways than one. You got nothing.
Also, the big incident that happened as a result of Ace vs Blackbeard battle is already happening. Did you miss the WAR?

Captain Kidd
October 05, 2009, 08:03 AM
You can shock the world in more ways than one. You got nothing.
Also, the big incident that happened as a result of Ace vs Blackbeard battle is already happening. Did you miss the WAR?

Oda after Blackbeard vs Ace: "This incident will be remembered as the trigger for the event that shook the world"
Blackbeard in Impel Down: "I'm going to shake the world to it's core in a few hours zehaha"


So no, you still lose. Good day sir.

Razh
October 05, 2009, 08:16 AM
Oda after Blackbeard vs Ace: "This incident will be remembered as the trigger for the event that shook the world"
Blackbeard in Impel Down: "I'm going to shake the world to it's core in a few hours zehaha"


So no, you still lose. Good day sir.

If you missed it somehow, Jackal, the war between Whitebeard and Marines is already shaking the world.

Basically, your whole idea is based on the "shake the world" term. And I repeat, you can shake the world in more ways. It doesn't mean that Blackbeard will come back to Marineford. Seriously, what help will a couple of more recruits provide to Marines. Sure, they hate Whitebeard, but don't you think some of them hate the Marines even more?

Check one of my earlier posts to see my position on this. I hate repeating stuff over and over.

ScratchmenApoo
October 05, 2009, 08:45 AM
And Blackbeard will attack the Marines anyway, it doesn't matter if he does this sooner or later, if he wants to be Pirate King.

modoki
October 05, 2009, 01:52 PM
The currents (similar to the bermuda triangle) that leads from Enies Lobby > Impel Down > Marinford. Blackbeard has to pass by the war scene. At one point BB mentioned during his time hiding under WB's shadow, he was studying Devil Fruits. The devil fruit he possesses can probably aid BB in taking out WB alone.

I know you guys will say "That's a lie because BB should have done it after killing his own crew member before escaping from the Moby Dick."
During that time, WB's division commanders could have ganged up and overkilled BB right then and there. BB was probably smart and fate told him to just let it go now, grab a crew, and wait later.

Now during this war, each of those commanders have their plates full and cant fully aid WB and (or) BB decides to strike after WB fights "whomever he is standing there for" and get's real exhausted.

Right now after getting Shiryuu and departing to the war before the New World, this is a perfect opportunity for BB to revoke his shichibukai title and make a big name for himself.

BlackHair
October 05, 2009, 02:06 PM
2/ Blackbeard isn't evil.Don't get ur blackbeard fanboism above ur judgement. BB is the antagints. His way to become the PK is filled with blood. He is evil for every known reason.

Poneglyph420
October 05, 2009, 02:15 PM
I have to agree. Blackbeard personifies the Morgania from "Romance Dawn" and is pure evil. BB COULD be a Major Antagonist, but we don't know that. I remember how he was so proud his DF was the most evil one.

Razh
October 05, 2009, 02:24 PM
The currents (similar to the bermuda triangle) that leads from Enies Lobby > Impel Down > Marinford. Blackbeard has to pass by the war scene. At one point BB mentioned during his time hiding under WB's shadow, he was studying Devil Fruits. The devil fruit he possesses can probably aid BB in taking out WB alone.


It would take more than just his devil fruit to help him defeat Whitebeard. Now that I've seen what the old man can do. Blackbeard would be an idiot to try to fight him. And being on his crew, probably knows what he's capable of. Too early. Also, what you said about division commanders ganging up. It's obvious that Blackbeard killed Sachi stole the fruit and escaped without anyone noticing.

Speaking of the triangle and the Tarai current. Who do you think will open the door for Blackbeard? Not the Marines. Hell, he has to beat Magellan before he can use all the different poisons he has. That would be quite an achievement.

beastboy
October 05, 2009, 05:23 PM
I mean nothing as in no influence. It's just as u said, WBs 2nd division commander. But that is WB's influence, what has Ace on his own? what did he archive on the grand line? nothing yet (or at least, we haven't been informed of anything). Plz read this post (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1139603&postcount=134), u may better understand what I referring to.


To make it clear:
All those chapters since jinbei introduction were made to show that he is a monster!!
Ace fighted for 5 days non stop against him!! Do you think that isn't a big big big achievement...!!
He also make it to the new world by is own!!

And we knew that it was a good fight long long ago so I don't understand why you're saying that Ace is weak...
Ace is A MONSTER.. we saw that WB captains (or atleast marco) is equal than an admiral!!
And I think that Ace is the second strongest (its not a fact just a tought), and that makes Ace almost at admiral lvl!!


About the topic:
Ace dies..
WB goes on a rampage and destroys the island
WB dies of heart attack
Everyone runs away
BB shokes the world killing all the running pirates minus the ones that were on the moby dick [the "good" scapies and the division captains ]

That are my toughts..
I would love that!!!

BlackHair
October 05, 2009, 05:36 PM
You sure brought up some old stuff :P

I wasn't talking about Ace's strenght, but rather about his achievement and why he was going to be executed: e.g because of his ties with Roger. Saying he had no achievements at all is certainly wrong, after all he had that with Oars and Jinbei...Anyway, that discussion was already over for me.

beastboy
October 05, 2009, 06:11 PM
I know it was old.. but I just remembered that the post could be old when my post was half written!!
And yeah about achievements he doesn't have much.. but that doesn't really matters..!!
I didn't really read the posts before that cause it was getting annoying you saying that Ace didn't do anything by is one!! Hahaha

About BB I think he isn't going to do nothing in this war but at other place.. that will really shock the world.. like destroing marijoa!!

Razh
October 05, 2009, 06:18 PM
I think I wrote that in some other thread.

So yeah, there's a chance that Blackbeard won't be leaving ID through the surface entrance. Ivankov or somebody else mentioned that there was a guy with a devil fruit who created the tunnels and he escaped. The closest land is probably the Red Line. What if Blackbeard met the guy and found out about his tunnel. He could just stroll under the sea and climb up to Red Line so he can either, sail on in the New World, or destroy Mariejoia. How sick is that!

Also, if there's a question why nobody else left with that tunnel, gaolers could have sealed it.
Anyway, I have difficulties imagining Blackbeard and his men passing by Magellan intact, without multiple poison types dripping from them and then obtaining a ship with which they will leave.

kkck
October 05, 2009, 06:21 PM
I do not think this kind of war will have a definite winner other than luffy. By the time this war is over, IMHO both sides will have lost a considerable amount of power. It is possible that WB will die but even that does not mean the WG wins. For instance, what good would it be to the WG to defeat WB but in turn they lose the 3 admirals or sengoku or a bunch of VA?

LoS
October 05, 2009, 10:33 PM
He could just stroll under the sea and climb up to Red Line so he can either, sail on in the New World, or destroy Mariejoia. How sick is that!

Well logic and Shounen hardly ever pairs up, not nocking your idea, but Logically this would indeed be the best opportunity BB and/or Dragon have ever got to crumble the WG/Marines.

goldb
October 06, 2009, 05:59 AM
@Captain Kidd; I think there are two different inidents tht Oda has reffered to in OP. One of which is the war we're currently witnessing as a result of Ace's defeat to Blackbeard, which led to his imprisonment in Impel Down. The second is the chapter 542 title: "Another Incident Yet to be told" which I think will be somethign directly related to BB. As the infobox atthe end of chapter 548 said:

On that day... the world's greatest Undersea Gaol, Impel Down, stood defeated. The total number of prisoners to escape its walls... 241. This may have been the greatest disgrace Impel Down had ever suffered...... but this incident does not end there.

Which I think could be interpreted as the begining of the war or the incident BB is preparing to cause( I of course choose to view it as the latter).

That is just my 2 cents okay.

@Rzah: yeah you did post your thoughts about BB destroying Mariejoa in another thread but for the life of me, I can't remember where. If he does indeed do that then the pirate era will change drastically because there would be next to nothing to stop Pirates from travelling between the two halves of the Grandline freely. But of course before we even think about that, he still has to face Magellan again...

chess4
October 06, 2009, 01:37 PM
there is only one outcome. luffy will get to ace, sengoku will attack and garp will step in. just when ace is about to get away BB and his crew shows up. WB stays behind to fight BB. everyone is escaping, and ace sails away he watches Wb die by the hand of BB.

this is the biggest war in one piece so far, so body has to die. forgot what chapter it was but the ending caption sais that the old age would be gone after this war, and he represents the old age more than WB.

beastboy
October 06, 2009, 05:19 PM
Well I'm tired of that BB will Kill WB s**t! WB would just casually backhand him like he did to Ace a hundred of times!!
And then quake is whole body into pieces!!
And that isn't a shoking revelation.. everybody guessed it.. I think BB plan will be the best plot twist ever.. I think everything is possible even world domination!! Or take over the WG by making the elders and the tenryuubito sign pappers that hand over the WG to him!! (too much bleach for me but it feets with the history..)
But BB kill WB is the worse case possible IMO.. I just hate that theory!!

jokey
October 12, 2009, 06:00 PM
sorry... i just dont see the world government losing... if they lose after giving all they've got then it just makes it easier for dragon to conquer the world... i dont think oda it gonna make that happen easily... the world government are still and i believe will remain to be the main force or power that is going to stand between luffy and one piece...other than blackbeard of course... i think it's gonna be a stalemate in terms of the fighting... with no side winning the war but the wb pirates and allies are gonna win in terms of saving ace... that's what i think...

bittman
October 13, 2009, 02:00 AM
You're right Jokey to a degree.

Want to know how WG can win this war? It's really easy actually, kill/capture/take-out Whitebeard. Without Whitebeard, the pirate side is lost. Don't point me to Marco, Joz, Jailbreak League, etc. The Marines already know Whitebeard is the glue which bonds the pirate crews together, if he goes down they'll panic and run into each other like headless chickens. He might not appear like he's controlling much at the moment, but if he was gone the motivation for battle would be lost with it.

So when the admirals re-appear (because they've been reeeeaaaally quiet over the last few chapters) it'll be a part of Sengoku's plan which targets Whitebeard personally rather than trying to take out a lot of numbers at once. After all, numbers should mean little to Whitebeard.

So remember folks, what a magician does with one hand is just a distraction from what he does with the other. Oda is making this war appear a chaotic struggle of marines v pirates, yet he's distracting us with Shichibukai and lower ranked marines whilst the other hand prepares Sengoku's plan and the true combat force of the marines who have thus far done nothing but defence.

And yeah, Blackbeard ain't coming into this war. He should be very very busy in Impel Down, Magellan and the 6 hellish levels of Impel Down aren't something a man can conquer in less than 2 hours.

Akainu
October 13, 2009, 03:16 AM
And yeah, Blackbeard ain't coming into this war. He should be very very busy in Impel Down, Magellan and the 6 hellish levels of Impel Down aren't something a man can conquer in less than 2 hours.
Seriously? They already have the antidote (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/549/02/) for at least one of the poisons, plus the one that brought them the antidote has profound knowledge of both Magellan and Impel Down. Additionally they were already down to level 4 or wherever and there is practically no defense left, that's why jimbei and BB thanked each other (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/544/10/).
So it's two levels down, without defense to free the prisoners and six levels up in a normal staircase with the hard part to get past Magellan in the end - depending on the abilities of the people he sets free amore or less easy task.
With the theory that they use tunnels out of ID even more <.<

So, to round it up, except for Magellan, 2 hours should be about enough so that he can show up in this battle - if he doesn't do it there he will influence the war in some other way like flattening Marijois which was often proposed in addition to the tunnel hypothesis.

DutchPhoenix
October 13, 2009, 07:09 AM
the great war WB vs marines theory and prediction.

well i'll start posting information about my theory

One piece movie 10.


Actually, Oda has said that this movie WILL BE CANON! I REPEAT, THIS MOVIE ACTUALLY AFFECTS THE CONTINUITY, THEREBY EXPONENTIALLY INCREASING IT'S LEVEL OF AWESOMNESS.

and http://www.apforums.net/showpost.php?p=848801&postcount=54

the movie is cannon, no filler.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmPAp0Kp_Fg&feature=related

other trailer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-f_yJuWnMQI&feature=related

in the trailers we see the following things

1. Garp, alive & healthy
2. Zoro has changed his black hairband with a flowery version
3. Golden lion can do cp9 moves.
4. sengoku alive & healthy
5. shanks alive & healthy
6. WhiteBeard Alive and healthy


since that movie will be cannon, my prediction is about this war.

Whitebeard/Luffy will succeed in getting ace back, then retread somehow
marines wont be totally destroyed, neither will WB.


SO i vote for
-The Pirates will escape after saving Ace

Akainu
October 13, 2009, 08:50 AM
To prevent one thing from the beginning, please discuss the movie in the appropriate thread in the one piece theater and arcade board, otherwise we have the same shit going on in here with redundant canon/not canon posts.

As far as we know NOW and not one and a half years ago like the shown posts, this movie is still NOT confirmed canon:
SBS of Vol. 55:Someone asks about the mention of Gold Lion.

ORGINALLY Oda wanted to include the blurb about him during the conversation between Shanks and Whitebeard (which is probably why the first preview ended up with those two) but held back because he thought it would be just too much info for readers and confuse them. (WHAT!?) He had no idea at the time that, that story about the pirate who wreaked havoc during Roger's time would actually become a movie.

So there it is.

The story surrounding Gold Lion as it would involve Luffy and gang is one he wanted to make canon but...that door of opportunity seems to have closed.


There might be a possibility, but please don't state that as truth.

Franckie
October 15, 2009, 12:28 AM
WB dying is a definate. Too much foreshadowing. I'm also have a hard time seeing Ace survive this fight. not killing Ace would be a waste for everything that has happened since Kuma pwned the SHs considering the plot as it revolves around Luffy.

Luffy was first sent to Amazon Lily and two things happened there. One of them was that Luffy gained a Shichibukai ally. The other thing was that Luffy learned about Blackbeard and what he did.

Then Luffy goes to Impel Down. Bunch of stuff happened here; Croc and Buggy are freed, Luffy gains another Shichibukai ally (kind of), aaaand... Luffy puts a face to the Blackbeard name. Blackbeard also becomes the first enemy that Luffy has had to walk away from (not the same thing as flee). I think we can all agree that Croc and Buggy are not going to matter that much in the long run.

Now consider what happens if Ace dies. Luffy gets his first personal grudge, whereas in all other arcs he has beat up the villain to help someone else. Blackbeard is the man responsible for Ace's death, and he is the first villain in OP where it's personal.

Now consider what happens if Ace is rescued. Luffy no longer has a reason to seek out BB. A final villain setup, that has its roots as early as roughly chapter 150 where we first see the silhouette of Ace, is gone completely to waste. Sure, Luffy would still hold a grudge against BB, but not for the same reasons anymore.

ScratchmenApoo
October 15, 2009, 07:28 AM
So basically, Blackbeard's speech about shocking the world is killing Ace himself, not letting the World Government do it instead?

BlackHair
October 15, 2009, 08:23 AM
Ace dying is ridiculous! I agree WB's falls is foreshadowed. Whether it is death or some other meaning is still open but hell Ace will not die! Since Luffy got the key from Hancock, it is imo foreshadowed that he will be freed and that he will take part in the war.

The reason why I believe Ace will survive:
WB's fall will be in vain if Ace dies.
Sengoku made clear that Ace will one day stand at the pirate summit. We all know he can't be the PK, so going a tiny step back -> Yonko. I believe he will take WB's position in the world, after his fall.
The main protagonist and a bunch of other named character are there to free Ace. Their goal will be archived.Well about point three, it might not be a valid argument, but the other two stands. I can't see Ace dying.


Now consider what happens if Ace is rescued. Luffy no longer has a reason to seek out BB. A final villain setup, that has its roots as early as roughly chapter 150 where we first see the silhouette of Ace, is gone completely to waste. Sure, Luffy would still hold a grudge against BB, but not for the same reasons anymore.Luffy and BB are aiming for the throne. It is only natural that they will fight near the end of the story. Apart from that I can't see Luffy forgetting all those things which BB did to him and his family.
BB was the one who put Ace through all those hardship.
WB is Ace's stepfather/captain/a man he believes in. If he falls Ace will be burdened. Seeing that Luffy will be in rage towards the WG and BB.All those tells only one thing: Luffy will not forget BB. True he will not go after BB with revenge feelings, but it is enough setup for a end fight.


So basically, Blackbeard's speech about shocking the world is killing Ace himself, not letting the World Government do it instead?I don't think so.

Razh
October 15, 2009, 08:55 AM
So basically, Blackbeard's speech about shocking the world is killing Ace himself, not letting the World Government do it instead?

Right, he meant that he's such a badass that he's going to kill Ace while he's being killed by the World Government. He just went to Impel Down to get some random sword to do it with.
Then again, maybe he wants to get San Juan and get him to turn into a battleship then blow up Ace with his cannons.
He did say that he has a plan.

Except that Ace was never really a part of his original plan. There goes my theory.:(

I'd hate to think that Whitebeard won't survive this battle, but it's hard to believe otherwise.
Then again, this battle can resolve in many different ways. If it resolves at all.

One possible outcome is that the Marines will have to forget about Ace and turn their attention to whatever badassery Blackbeard has caused.
Whatever threat a son of the pirate king poses is probably a lot less intangible then an act that should shake the foundation of the world. World as it is is not especially stable (source: Gorosei), and World Goverment is pretty enthusiastic about hiding it's own foundations (check Ohara).
When you think about it, Blackbeard's badassery could be anything, since there are so many secrets about WG. It's possible that he knows something about the dark century or something related to it. He has a D. in his name. Just because Luffy's family seems to be oblivious to it's past, doesn't mean that it's like that with all of the D's.

Poneglyph420
October 16, 2009, 06:54 PM
I really don't see Ace dying here.. I hope so at least.
Because if he were to die, that's the end of he Marines. WB would just collapse the whole place, and use seismic waves to kill everyone. You could see Sengoku's fear when he proclaimed WB is the man who could destroy the world. Ace is the only "chip" the have right now. That's why WB has to play the Marines "game" as far as strategy.
I also agree with some of blackhair's points.

As far as BB. He's been on WB's ship for decades.. has must have gathered a great deal of information during that time. He is also a "D" and with that has some destiny.
Seems to me the Destiny of evil. And I love it!
But unless he somehow manages to make it to Marineford.. we will have to wait...