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View Full Version : Does anyone know why the latest Bleach canon storyline is so dysfunctional?



Pyrogunz
August 28, 2009, 12:17 AM
I'm watching the parts when Ichigo and the others infiltrate Hueco Mundo. The idiocy of this act is unprecedented, but even putting that aside, why does Aizen put up no real defense of their assault? Why does he order all of his Espada stay in their rooms, and instead allow random, stupid singular Espada to go out and fight them on equal ground, one after the other? Why does he make no effort to improve the integrity of his fighting force, and hence, his supposed "goals"? Why is it just a bunch of random, stupid (but still epic) fights, when the Espada could just go out and obliterate them at any given time? Does the manga (that I have not read yet) offer any answers to this, or is it just plain stupidity? I'm not trying to bash the show because I'm loving the show (and the manga) but it's just starting to put a strain on my endurance to keep watching all of this. I'm sorry if I offend anyone.

I'm just trying to watch this with a piece of mind and enjoy the fights, because it seems like Aizen doesn't know the meaning of "defense" and it truly seems like Ichigo and his friends don't know the meaning of "sanity", even though that's supposed to be the point. I hope some people can sympathize with me on this one.

Note: If the answer is obvious and I have not read the manga yet then I apologize for trying to "watch" the manga on the first play-through. I wonder if anyone else experienced the same anxious doubts that I did.

Tsukisama
August 28, 2009, 12:23 AM
I am glad that you added that note at the end, because you were likely to get several responses that would have spoiled your enjoyment of the anime. :hbunny

Without giving away the plot, I can tell you that Aizen will reveal the method behind this madness. So, for now you should just wait until the anime returns to the canon and patiently await Aizen to explain himself. ;)

I am going to allow this thread to remain open so that users who only watch the anime can discuss their theories. Thus, for those who have actually read the manga, don't spoil this for him and the other users!

I mean don't do anything of the sort, not even place the answer in spoiler tags; just let him watch the anime, and if he really wants to know now, he and anyone else can read the manga. Expect harsh consequences for leaking spoilers in this thread.

Snake_Cowboy
August 28, 2009, 02:13 AM
Where exactly are you in the anime and the manga? When they've just entered Hueco Mundo and Las Noches?

Because, as Tsukisama said, Aizen does eventually reveal a reason why he let Ichigo and the others even come to Hueco Mundo. Some fans are still debating whether he told the truth at the time and doesn't have some ulterior motive (with Aizen, that's very hard to tell), but there's no question that Aizen's strategy worked to his advantage in the long run.

As for letting the Espada go out and just fight one after another... Aizen's full plan still hasn't been revealed, even in the manga, but honestly... It's becoming more and more apparent that Aizen doesn't really seem to care about the Espada. As if, despite their considerable strength, they are still just pawns in a much bigger chess game.

But that's just my personal theory. Nothing's certain yet.

DARK
September 05, 2009, 08:54 AM
It more or less depends on where you are in the manga: if you are currently at the part where they go to (or are in) Hueco Mundo (the beginning), I can't really say much.
All I can say is that Aizen is a hard character to predict. You can't really trust his word or supposed motives for anything. For the Espada who have gone out to attack the group, they were violating their orders. As for the reason why he left Ichigo and the others alone where he could have easily ordered his minions to kill them, Aizen may have some interest in the group, especially Ichigo.

Pyrogunz
September 07, 2009, 04:25 PM
It more or less depends on where you are in the manga: if you are currently at the part where they go to (or are in) Hueco Mundo (the beginning), I can't really say much.
All I can say is that Aizen is a hard character to predict. You can't really trust his word or supposed motives for anything. For the Espada who have gone out to attack the group, they were violating their orders. As for the reason why he left Ichigo and the others alone where he could have easily ordered his minions to kill them, Aizen may have some interest in the group, especially Ichigo.

That's the interesting little fact that may have tipped me over the edge. Thank you :)

benelori
September 13, 2009, 10:03 AM
I'm watching the parts when Ichigo and the others infiltrate Hueco Mundo. The idiocy of this act is unprecedented, but even putting that aside, why does Aizen put up no real defense of their assault? Why does he order all of his Espada stay in their rooms, and instead allow random, stupid singular Espada to go out and fight them on equal ground, one after the other? Why does he make no effort to improve the integrity of his fighting force, and hence, his supposed "goals"? Why is it just a bunch of random, stupid (but still epic) fights, when the Espada could just go out and obliterate them at any given time? Does the manga (that I have not read yet) offer any answers to this, or is it just plain stupidity? I'm not trying to bash the show because I'm loving the show (and the manga) but it's just starting to put a strain on my endurance to keep watching all of this. I'm sorry if I offend anyone.

I'm just trying to watch this with a piece of mind and enjoy the fights, because it seems like Aizen doesn't know the meaning of "defense" and it truly seems like Ichigo and his friends don't know the meaning of "sanity", even though that's supposed to be the point. I hope some people can sympathize with me on this one.

Note: If the answer is obvious and I have not read the manga yet then I apologize for trying to "watch" the manga on the first play-through. I wonder if anyone else experienced the same anxious doubts that I did.

I agree with snake-cowboy, the problem is the up o date manga readers also don't have no clue of aizen's plan, so even if as tsukisama said HM will add up in a way, later attitudes will just bring U back to UR dilemma

Tsukisama
September 13, 2009, 12:49 PM
I agree with snake-cowboy, the problem is the up o date manga readers also don't have no clue of aizen's plan, so even if as tsukisama said HM will add up in a way, later attitudes will just bring U back to UR dilemma

That's true. We never truly know Aizen's plans, but in regards to why Aizen let Ichigo and friends run amok in HM, Aizen gives an explanation for that at the very end of the HM arc, which sort of makes sense. (Later, you find Aizen's plans illogical again, and you have to wait for him to reveal why he is doing that. It is sort of a cycle in the story really.)

Pyrogunz
October 09, 2009, 06:19 AM
In retrospect, the Espadas were really much, much weaker than I had originally predicted, which had severely disappointed me. I thought they'd each be able to take out at least 2 captains, singlehandedly. But that was not the case. Now Aizen's gonna have to kill everyone himself?

Jamil2009
October 09, 2009, 08:04 AM
IMHO, Aizen Sousuke is sick, insane and disturbingly indomitable. As concerns his goals, trying to figure out what he truly is aiming for is like wondering why the chicken crossed the road. Every reader/viewer has their own opinion but only the chicken (Aizen) knows why it crossed the bleeding road.

So, though this is a rather redundant remark, we all (newcomers and veterans) would have to wait and see how Kubo plays things out.

Snake_Cowboy
October 09, 2009, 08:52 AM
@PyroGunz: You're not the only one disappointed with the Espada, but in retrospect, they were probably hyped up too much.

Given that the Menos don't become all that much more powerful when becoming Arrancar (certainly not those that were created by Aizen prior to getting his hands on the Hougyoku), only the Vasto Lorde Espada were guaranteed to be a potential threat. As Hitsugaya explained, the abilities of the average Vasto Lorde are above that of the average captain and they get an additional power-boost on becoming Arrancar. Most likely, only Ulquiorra, Hallibell, Barragan and Stark were Vasto Lordes and even then, they may not been all that high-level.

But yes, it looks like Aizen's going to face Soul Society and the Vizards by himself, but I'm still getting the impression that he has some sort of plan ready.

Off-topic: while writing this post, I went off on a tangent concerning the Espada's strength, doing a recap of them all. Read it if you like, otherwise ignore it.


#9: Novena Espada, Aaroniero Arrurueri

The weakest of the Espada, the only Gillian Arrancar in the Espada and the only one left of the original Espada. Aaroniero was not very impressive, but his abilities were certainly potent. Thanks to the abilities he had obtained from the Hollow that killed Kaien, he had grown far beyond the limits of a Gillian. With Kaien's Zanpakutou, he was easily able to handle Rukia - who may not be a seated officer, but has shown the strength of a vice-captain. When Aaroniero released, Rukia was screwed. She was only able to draw with him by a cheap shot. (seriously, when you've already skewered your opponent and broken their sword, who could've seen that coming?)

#8: Octava Espada, Szayel Apporro-Grantz

Szayel is hard to judge in strength, because, like Mayuri, he does not rely on strength or skills in combat. Instead, he used abilities that gave him a significant advantage over his opponent. He planned his battle with Renji, unabling him to use his Bankai, and negating Ishida's Seele Schneider. When Renji and Ishida finally did manage to wound him, Szayel used his Fracciones to regenerate and unabled them escape. Again, the moment Szayel released, Renji and Ishida were thoroughly screwed. Only a captain like Mayuri could have easily handled Szayel: thanks to his ingeniuty, he had already prepared for anything that Szayel could throw at him. In short, Szayel easily handled two sub-captain opponents (since Renji and Ishida seem stronger than the average vice-captain, but aren't the level of a captain yet) and provided a brilliant captain with entertainment.

#7: Septima Espada, Zommari Leroux

This was never a fair match. Zommari faced the 4th strongest captain of Soul Society, thus was bound to lose. Still, he did put up a good fight. So far, we have not seen any Sonido faster than his (some may claim Ulquiorra or other Espada seemed faster, but none of them were capable of leaving after-images like Zommari did). Still, Zommari could have done more damage - like Barragan later on, Zommari was extremely arrogant. Had he targeted Byakuya's head from the beginning, he could've won. Still, he forced Byakuya to cut through his own limbs and survived his Bankai, if only barely. But against Senbonzakura Kageyoshi, Zommari was doomed.

#6: Sexta Espada, Grimmjow Jeagerjaques

Grimmjow probably lived up most to people's expectations. While Ichigo was suffering from his inner Hollow, he was owning him, even on Bankai. Without his hollow interfering, Ichigo was roughly on equal footing with Grimmjow's unreleased form. When both combatants finally used all their strength, Ichigo was just slightly stronger than Grimmjow. All in all, it was a good fight.

#5: Quinta Espada, Nnoitra Jiruga

Nnoitra was one tough SOB. I think that he, Neliel and Ulquiorra's first form represent the very pinnackle of what an Adjuchas-turned-Arrancar is capable of. Nnoitra gave Kenpachi one hell of a fight; Kenpachi has shown himself to possess an insane amount of strength and stamina, yet Nnoitra forced him to go all out, even with his eye-patch off. It's probably been ages since Kenpachi was forced to end a fight in order to save his own life and only his most powerful attack was capable of doing the job. Even then, Nnoitra refused to go down easily.

#4: Cuarta Espada, Ulquiorra Cifer

Ulquiorra was one of the most impressive of the Espada. Given their forms upon releasing and Ulquiorra's explanation of the top 4 Espada not being allowed to release within Las Noches, it's very likely that the top 4 were all Vasto Lordes. But personally, I believe Ulquiorra had only recently obtained the status of a Vasto Lorde; he may even have already been turned into an Arrancar when he was an Adjuchas and then became a Vasto Lorde, thus explaining why he had two releases. He was completely dominating Ichigo upon his first release and was just able to knock out Ichigo's extremely powerful new Hollow form with his second release. I think his strength was even beyond the expectations of most fans.

#3: Tercera Espada, Hallibell Tia

Hallibell was probably a low-level Vasto Lorde, but even then she was probably stronger than Ulquiorra. She was tearing Hitsugaya up at the start of her fight with him; the only reason he was able to fight on for so long was because his ice-abilities gave him an advantage over Hallibell's water-abilities. She survived his most powerful attack, Hyoten Hyakkaso, without a scratch (though it's still not certain whether she managed to break out on her own or not) and even when Lisa and Hiyori stepped in, she was still able to hold her own.

#2: Segunda Espada, Barragan Luisenbarn

Barragan may have been a mid-level Vasto Lorde. I think the only reason he became King of Hueco Mundo was because none of his enemies could counter his Respira, even if they were stronger than him. He was an extremely dangerous opponent. In fact, the only reason Barragan lost was, not because he was weak, but because he was stupidly arrogant. Had he gone all out with Respira from the start, he probably would have annhiliated Soifon, Hachi and Omaeda. Hell, he might still have won if Hachi hadn't figured out a way to turn his own Respira against him. In my opinion, Barragan definitely lived up to his title of King of Hueco Mundo.

#1: Primera Espada, Coyote Stark

The most powerful of the Espada. Stark was probably a mid-level Vasto Lorde. Far too strong to hang out with weak Hollows, but just too weak to hang out with the big boys. Upon releasing, he was handling Kyouraku and Ukitake (two of some of the strongest captains) quite well, showing not only some impressive abilities, but also great insight into his opponents (figuring out Ukitake's shikai in just a couple tries). Not to mention that he stole Orihime from under Kenpachi's and Ichigo's noses earlier. He put Kyouraku out of commission for a bit, then proceeded to handle two captain-class opponents with shikais and Vizard masks. It was only when Kyouraku, the third-strongest captain of Soul Society, got serious with his shikai that Stark lost.

#0: Cero Espada, Yammi Rialgo

The revelation of Yammi's status as the zero Espada came as quite a shock. However, it's probably not as big a deal as Kubo is leading us to believe. As Yammi revealed just prior to releasing, he has been constantly sleeping and eating to save up his strength. This, along with the fact that he was given a 10 tattoo at first instead of a 0, seems to imply that Yammi is simply greater than all the other Espada in terms of raw power. It doesn't say anything about his intelligence or his abilities. Still, Yammi's sheer size and physical strength are considerable, thus I don't think that Renji, Rukia, Chad or even Ishida and Ichigo will be able to handle him. In fact, there's only one person currently in Hueco Mundo that will definitely be able to handle him: the second-strongest captain of Soul Society, Unohana Retsu.

obamamania
October 09, 2009, 07:36 PM
If the Vasto Lorde are really not so much of a threat, then we've just been trolled BIG time. If Aizen manages to defeat all of Soul Society here, and gets his key without needing his hollows to kill anyone, then what the hell was the purpose of needing the hougyoku other than to have Soul Society overestimate Aizen and overreact big time. It just seems so cheap that Aizen could at this point defeat these captains with only 2 defectors and a potential VL. Hell, Tousen shouldn't be considered so strong after already losing to a captain who struggled against the number 5 espada (Kubo REALLY should never have had Tousen fight so hard and for Tousen to spill his soul to us in such a way, this seperated Tousen from Aizen and Gin who are both enigmas). Yama hasn't really done a damn thing and yet he looks grim despite his overwhelming power, and the remaining captains besides Soifon are all acting like the end is near yet they haven't used bankai! So many bankai, so little time...they deserve to lose if the plot-induced stupidity is so large, this is almost as bad as the filler where every shinigami kept trying to release and were shocked each time even though they knew they couldn't... But anyway, it's way too soon for Aizen to be the end all villian when his subordinates all lost so pathetically. He will have a real group of super-hollows soon, otherwise Kubo is planning something insane.

Snake_Cowboy
October 10, 2009, 02:00 AM
^Personally, I'm going to give Kubo the benefit of the doubt. The ending of the Soul Society arc was completely unexpected and I don't think he would have written this arc without some huge twist in mind. I'm certain that there's a greater purpose for the Hougyoku in Aizen's/Kubo's mind(s) that we have yet to see. Either he used the Espada as guinea pigs for the Hougyoku and then used it on himself, Gin and Tousen to become the perfect Shinigami/Hollow hybrids, or Aizen has a second group of even stronger Vasto Lorde Arrancar ready. Or it might be something completely different.

Either way, I have faith in Kubo.

Musashi_Keiji
November 14, 2009, 06:13 AM
Going back to the original topic of the arc being so dysfunctional... I think its because of how all the characters in bleach have the same personality trait. Pride. Practically every character in Bleach seems to show a pride of fighting on their own one-on-one against their opponent. Even if they are dying they dont want help. And that is how most of the fights have come out.

Because in the TC's original post he proves a point. Why not have the espada still in HC go all out and kill Ichigo's group when they first arrived at Hueco mundo.

But the same can be said when the captains first arrived at karakura town. The Espada there could have fought along side their fraccion and taken out their respective captain opponents and vice captains.

Really IMO Bleach has always been a poorly written manga. It's the DBZ for this generation. Great action but pointless or dumb storyline.

Jiggy-Ninja
December 20, 2009, 10:43 PM
Off-topic: while writing this post, I went off on a tangent concerning the Espada's strength, doing a recap of them all. Read it if you like, otherwise ignore it.



Starrk's death was a bunch of crap to me.

Hell, he never should have been able to release. If Ukitake had even the smallest bit of sense he would have wasted Lilynette. He had enough skill to disarm her barehanded, so killing her should have been...well, it would have been child's play.

Yeah, I get that Kubo needed to show Starrk's release, but he did it in a way that made Ukitake look like a damn imbecile. I just can't get over the fact that he was literally playing a game with what should have been his enemy.

If I was Yamamoto, I'd seriously be bitch-slapping him for that, and possibly demoting him for his incompetence, I'm that pissed off.

Kyouraku after he released his Shikai, on the other hand, I did like. When he tried to sucker punch Starrk while he was in the middle of talking, I got the feeling that he was the only guy that was treating this battle seriously. Cheap shotting Starrk from behind with Kageoni while he was preoccupied with Love and Rose also showed that he was fighting to win the damn war, and he didn't care what cheap, cowardly, and low tricks he'd need to use to do so.

Hm...I suppose Hitsugaya is treating the battle seriously too. He fights like he means it. Sort of like an uptght, kid version of Kyouraku.

Anyway, I digressed.

I just don't think it's right that the Primera, the strongest Espada there, was brought down by a Shikai. 2 other Captain's most powerful Bankai attacks both failed against the 2 and 3 Espada.

At least he was brought down by Kyouraku, for the reasons above. That's the only saving grace for his death.