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kkck
August 28, 2009, 12:51 AM
Ok, I finally got inspired enough to start this thread. I think this one would be interesting given that both enemies seem to be polar opposites. Ichigo's right hand man vs ichigo's most important rival.

Chad is a mostly close ranged fighter but he has some attacks which are long range and have quite a bit of power. Overall he seems to be very balanced. In terms of offense, he has his left arm which has extremely powerful close range attacks(than we know of). For defense, his right arm turns into an actual shield. It also as a powerful long range attack. He also seems to be quite fast given that he managed to move faster than a privaron espada with sonido even though he himself as no high speed techniques.

Ishida is mostly a long range fighter but has some special techniques which allow him to fight in close combat. He fights basically by firing his arrows which surprisingly are very versatile. In SS arc they seemed to have a somewhat explosive effect and right now he also seems to be able to fire them at incredible speeds. It shows ishida has an arrow for every situation. Ishida Also has seele schnieider which has prove very versatile. This particular arrow has extreme cutting power which can be used in short and long range. In short range it can be used as a sword and in long range it can be used as a powerful projectile. All in all, not something to take lightly. Ishida also seems to have a sort of quincy kido of sorts. This can be useful in many situations where direct confrontation is inadvisable or overall impossible. Finally ishida has his high speed technique which is at the very least equal to the other ones around. With it he surpassed the speed of iceringer and keep up with a privaron espada.

So that's it, discuss!

Edit: Ok, so I will add a battle arena. I forgot about that before and I do not want to get nagged about it lol. The fighting scenario will be the top of las noche's dome, where ichigo fought segunda etapa ulquiorra. This scenario should bring the best out of chad's hollow-ish powers and allow ishida to get as much reishi as he wants. Enjoy!

Ozehro
August 28, 2009, 01:00 AM
I think the battle area is an important factor as well.
because Ishida doesn't use his own strength. He uses reishi that is in the atmosphere
and around him. so if the fight is in HM, then Ishida would put up a good fight.
but if it was on earth then chad would win easily.

kkck
August 28, 2009, 01:28 AM
I have my doubts about the difference being THAT huge though. Sure there will be a difference but I doubt it will be like if ishida in the real world would fight like he did when he first appeared and in HM he would intantly rise above the VC level. To keep thing simple I will add a battle arena where both can fight at 100% though.

Ozehro
August 28, 2009, 02:19 AM
yeah but 100% doesn't make sense in Ishida's case.
Reishi around him is his weapon. so his power is relative to the density of the spirit particles around him. low density of spirit particles would mean very weak power, while high density of spirit particles would mean very high power. The only definite ability of him might be the rate of absorption. so that's probably his only room for growth. and judging by that I think chad is the stronger fighter. since he largely
generates his own power... although in HM Ishida might win since reishi is densely abundant... or so I think.lol.

xXAshisogiJizoXx
August 28, 2009, 12:59 PM
I voted chad, only because i think he has amazing potential, as we still don't know everything about his powers. while ishida can train harder, and have a few more tricks, his ability to grow is limited IMO. Right now, i think ishida would win, but im pretty sure sooner or later, chad will get a boost

En Yang Ji
August 28, 2009, 01:23 PM
It's hard to say who will win. Even if Chad has a shield, the arrows would hit every other place left unguarded. There's too many arrows being shot at once, at too many different places for Chad to guard. The only ways he can deal with that, is to either avoid Ishida's attacks altogether or shoot his long range attack at the same time. He might even be able to overpower Ishida attacks.

If he was able to get in close he would probably win. Ishida doesn't seem to have much stanima and Chad is extremely strong so one hit from his left arm should be able to beat him. The other attack he uses from his right arm is also extremely powerful. Since he can pour as much of his life energy into that attack as he wants, he may even be able to make it more powerful.

I guess who wins this fight depends on speed. Both of them can take out the other pretty quickly, if they land their attacks.

Mifune_Taichou
August 28, 2009, 02:27 PM
I am honestly shocked to see how many people voted for chad. Fair dos thats what you guys think, maybe I have misunderstood something but in my mind its a no contest. Chad is cool but he is nowhere near on Ishida's level.

Chad's attacks are powerful but slow-hed never catch Ishida with one of them. Ishida on the other hand is at least as fast as the faster shinigami(he was mayuri speed even back in SS before Final Form). He can spam arrows ridiculously. He has quincy spells. Not only is Seele Sneider a good weapon, when he uses them to make a pentagram and does the sprenger technique thats incredibly powerful. We've also seen how powerful Light Regen is. When you put all this together i wouldnt imagine Chad standing a ghost of a chance.

And if we want to talk about potential, if Ishida figures out a way to acess final form again (like I think Rykken can) then he will flatten chad(and most people) in seconds. From what we saw in the Ishida v Mayuri fight, Final FOrm ishida is something like 2x standard captain.

kkck
August 28, 2009, 02:58 PM
I sincerely doubt ishida from SS was comparable to speed with mayuri. Quite frankly I do not think ishida was even close. In all fairness once mayuri focused on him, ishida was completely unable to land a hit until his final form. Ishida is by no means a captain level fighter, even if the captain in question has the worst physical abilities of all the captains.

xXAshisogiJizoXx
August 28, 2009, 05:07 PM
ishida's final form is an impractical ability meant to be used in the most dire of circumstances. it would be pretty cheap if you would take that into consideration for every single fight he is in. not only that, but i highly doubt ishida's father would be willing to help ishida re-acquire his powers again.

Mifune_Taichou
August 28, 2009, 05:08 PM
I sincerely doubt ishida from SS was comparable to speed with mayuri. Quite frankly I do not think ishida was even close. In all fairness once mayuri focused on him, ishida was completely unable to land a hit until his final form. Ishida is by no means a captain level fighter, even if the captain in question has the worst physical abilities of all the captains.

well now he is much stronger than he was then so now he is definately captain level. Dont forget Halibell even said Rangiku was captain level and Ikkaku and Renji are also, and Ishida is stronger than all of them

kkck
August 28, 2009, 08:23 PM
That's kinda a generalization use to refer to the captains and VC. Ishida could be much stronger than the VC but there is no way he could come close to matching the power of a gotei 13 captain without the ultimate form of the quincy.

Ozehro
August 29, 2009, 01:34 AM
well now he is much stronger than he was then so now he is definately captain level. Dont forget Halibell even said Rangiku was captain level and Ikkaku and Renji are also, and Ishida is stronger than all of them

I don't get it. How on earth is rangiku captain level?
I don't think even Renji is captain level because if he was
then wouldn't yama make them new captains? I mean there are three
vacancies after all. and you also have to remember that Ishida is human.
He's not like a spiritual being. so he himself generates weak reiatsu,
and this is why Quincy rely on their surroundings.
but yeah while there are enemies that can take on bankai's it shouldn't
be underestimated. so I don't think Ishida is even close to captain level.
Among the nakama I think it's only ichigo who comes to captain level
since he actually defeated one, and defeated another with his hollow help.

Mifune_Taichou
August 29, 2009, 06:03 PM
Well all I said was Hallibell said Rangiku was captain level. I'm guessing the reiatsu she sensed from her was strong enough for a baseline captain if she had bankai. But if Hallibell is right she could only be referring to the very baseline Captains Level.

Truly, Ichigo only survived his fights in SS because Kenpachi and Byakuya went easy on him(hell even Ikakku did). However now he is definately of at least medium captain level. With his speed I would imagine he could easily defeat Mayuri, Komamura, Tosen and possibly Soi Fon.

Chad is nowhere near captain level and will probably never be. Hes not that guy. Hes Ichigos loyal pal but thats just his part. Ishida is the guy who is meant to be Ichigos rival but a bit weaker. When you look at all he has:

speed at least as fast as shunpo
1200 arrows at a time firing rate
Light Regen (all the arrows at once)
Quicny spells
Seele Sneider
Sprenger
Heavenly suit Puppet(which allows him to fight even if he cant move his limbs)

How anyone could think thats not enough to take out Chad is truly and completely beyond my comprehension. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

The reason I rate Ishida as captain level is that I dont see the lower tier captains being able to defeat him without one hell of a fight even if they do eventually beat him. Yama,Shunsui,Uki,Byakuya and Kenpachi would be fine against him. The rest will have a fight on their hands.

Ozehro
August 30, 2009, 01:43 AM
Well all I said was Hallibell said Rangiku was captain level. I'm guessing the reiatsu she sensed from her was strong enough for a baseline captain if she had bankai. But if Hallibell is right she could only be referring to the very baseline Captains Level.
I wouldn't trust that comment tbh. remember what hisagi's opponent said? He thought he was captain level. but yeah maybe there's such a thing as a base captain level but then that means just about every bleach
character maybe above that. and that would make the captain title a little redundant.



Truly, Ichigo only survived his fights in SS because Kenpachi and Byakuya went easy on him(hell even Ikakku did). However now he is definately of at least medium captain level. With his speed I would imagine he could easily defeat Mayuri, Komamura, Tosen and possibly Soi Fon.
yeah I also think that he's mid level captain.



Chad is nowhere near captain level and will probably never be. Hes not that guy. Hes Ichigos loyal pal but thats just his part. Ishida is the guy who is meant to be Ichigos rival but a bit weaker. When you look at all he has:
I agree. It would be a bad move for Tite to make the captain title redundant. It's meant to be something special. although I do think
chad will get more power eventually but I hope it's not going to all of a sudden overshadow captains.



speed at least as fast as shunpo
1200 arrows at a time firing rate
Light Regen (all the arrows at once)
Quicny spells
Seele Sneider
Sprenger
Heavenly suit Puppet(which allows him to fight even if he cant move his limbs)

How anyone could think thats not enough to take out Chad is truly and completely beyond my comprehension. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Yes those are very impressive. Given Ishida's intelligence I guess Ishida should win.



The reason I rate Ishida as captain level is that I dont see the lower tier captains being able to defeat him without one hell of a fight even if they do eventually beat him. Yama,Shunsui,Uki,Byakuya and Kenpachi would be fine against him. The rest will have a fight on their hands.

now this I completely disagree with. I don't think Ishida can win against
any captain. He was lucky against Mayuri and actually in the end he ended up taking the most damage. since Mayuri could turn liquid and regain his strength where as Ishida lost it. That was pretty sad.
but yeah he's definitely not captain level. by captain level I don't mean some unknown base level. I mean he can't match any current captain of the gotei 13.

Mifune_Taichou
August 30, 2009, 08:31 AM
I wouldn't trust that comment tbh. remember what hisagi's opponent said? He thought he was captain level. but yeah maybe there's such a thing as a base captain level but then that means just about every bleach
character maybe above that. and that would make the captain title a little redundant.


yeah I also think that he's mid level captain.


I agree. It would be a bad move for Tite to make the captain title redundant. It's meant to be something special. although I do think
chad will get more power eventually but I hope it's not going to all of a sudden overshadow captains.


Yes those are very impressive. Given Ishida's intelligence I guess Ishida should win.



now this I completely disagree with. I don't think Ishida can win against
any captain. He was lucky against Mayuri and actually in the end he ended up taking the most damage. since Mayuri could turn liquid and regain his strength where as Ishida lost it. That was pretty sad.
but yeah he's definitely not captain level. by captain level I don't mean some unknown base level. I mean he can't match any current captain of the gotei 13.

I'm glad we agree on most things. I think you misunderstand what I mean by captain level. I dont think Ishida can beat any of the current captains though I think most will have to use bankai to beat him and have a tough fight. when I say captain level I mean that if you round up Renji, Ikkaku (the two bankai capable non captains) and Ishida, I'd personally pick Ishida to be a captain over those two. Obviously hes a quincy so that wont happen but I mean in terms of abilities. Thats just how I see it. I concede the point that his powers fluctuate depending on where he is, but with how he is i doubt Renji and Ikkaku could beat him at any point. Thats basically what I mean when I say he is captain level.

Doumo
September 23, 2009, 11:57 AM
Well, not two top tier, but still an interesting fight, expecially if you consider the future development of the story...

Ishida was clearly stronger at the beginning, but the ispano-guy is slowly becoming scary...

Mifune_Taichou
September 23, 2009, 12:56 PM
Not even close for me. Ishida all the way. hes too fast, too versatile and I dont think Chad can tank his stronger attacks. Also chad will never land a hit.

Kuranzyan
September 23, 2009, 01:04 PM
I wouldn't know about that... Ever since 'Chad' awakened his arms' true forms he's been able to keep up with Sonido and the like, so his speed has drastically improved from what it had been.

Doumo
September 23, 2009, 02:43 PM
Sado is a beast...everyone knows Kubo passion for Ispanos...so I think he will become really strong...also, if you consider his progression, only Ichigo can be compared to him...I thnk that next arc he will kick asses, expecially if he gets "Legs of the...." upgrade.

Mifune_Taichou
September 24, 2009, 12:06 PM
Sado is a beast...everyone knows Kubo passion for Ispanos...so I think he will become really strong...also, if you consider his progression, only Ichigo can be compared to him...I thnk that next arc he will kick asses, expecially if he gets "Legs of the...." upgrade.

Kubos only passion for hispanos is to get them all killed by the shinigami. thats just too true lol.

Chad...kept up with the sonido of a privaron espada. I think from what we've seen Ishida is faster than Gantenbaume. Besides its not just about keeping up-he has to move at that speed as well if he is to ever hit ishida with anything and if until he can he will not land a single hit-every time he gets near ishida the dude will just vanish then reappear somewhere and shower him with arrows. This is just not a good match for chad.

Kuranzyan
September 24, 2009, 01:13 PM
Sonido / Shunpo / Hirenkyaku all increase the speed of the user by a certain degree. So far Uryu hasn't been seen using Hirenkyaku to keep up with an Espada's speed in direct combat, while Sado managed to land a hit on Nnoitora (even though he wasn't even fighting).

Ishida's arrows in comparison to Chad's energy blasts are rain compared to a barrel-sized amount of water. Chad's Shield form of his Brazo Derecha de Gigante would be able to block them, I think.

Mifune_Taichou
September 24, 2009, 01:41 PM
Sonido / Shunpo / Hirenkyaku all increase the speed of the user by a certain degree. So far Uryu hasn't been seen using Hirenkyaku to keep up with an Espada's speed in direct combat, while Sado managed to land a hit on Nnoitora (even though he wasn't even fighting).

Ishida's arrows in comparison to Chad's energy blasts are rain compared to a barrel-sized amount of water. Chad's Shield form of his Brazo Derecha de Gigante would be able to block them, I think.

But his back wouldnt be able to block them lol. and ishida will be firing from all directions-i just dont think chad can keep up. Also if he gets cought in say Sprenger hes done.

I also dont see him being able to survive Light Regen.

Lol cmon man chad landed a hit on Nnoitora? Nnoitora stood there and took it because he knew he wouldnt even feel a tickle.

benelori
September 26, 2009, 08:11 AM
Definitely ishida...I mean both have powers, frightening ones, too...but in terms of speed ishida is on another level...taking thousands of arrows in an unprotected place would cripple even chad=>ishida>chad
If don't agree check mifune's posts...

Yans86
September 26, 2009, 10:09 AM
There's still time for Chad to beat Uryuu,but I can't see Uryuu this far from him.....
Chad growing rate is to big for Uryuu to keep up,since the boy had 15 years of Quincy training while Chad awakened his power at the same time as Ichigo,beside not having huge training and stuff....

It's unfortunate that Chad is so underrated for his unlucky fights.Since we r talking about Noitora(first hits even Kenpachi couldn't cut him,and same goes for Ichigo,...),and we r talking about (friggin Shunsui)....

And well,Szayel survived the "Light Regen" and he wasn't the fighting type.........why can't Chad since he is the real fighting type???beside the fact tha Uryuu needed time and help to prepare the move......

Also the speech "unprotected place" doesn't add up IMO....cause if u talk about unprotected place,then everyone is unprotected and should loose to Uryuu and Quincy!

Uryuu would win just because he is slightly faster,and has more experience and tools up his sleeve.

PS.
Keeping up with a privaron speed,and full blast is not something u can pull out every day...and beside that,people fails in saying Chad is slow for the simple reason that he doesn't have a "NAMED TECHNIQUE"....no one will ever say Chad used Sonido/Shunpo/Hyrenkyaku....isn't it?so no one will ever admit that he is fast cause he can't/doesn't have this named technique...

Mifune_Taichou
September 26, 2009, 04:28 PM
There's still time for Chad to beat Uryuu,but I can't see Uryuu this far from him.....
Chad growing rate is to big for Uryuu to keep up,since the boy had 15 years of Quincy training while Chad awakened his power at the same time as Ichigo,beside not having huge training and stuff....

It's unfortunate that Chad is so underrated for his unlucky fights.Since we r talking about Noitora(first hits even Kenpachi couldn't cut him,and same goes for Ichigo,...),and we r talking about (friggin Shunsui)....

And well,Szayel survived the "Light Regen" and he wasn't the fighting type.........why can't Chad since he is the real fighting type???beside the fact tha Uryuu needed time and help to prepare the move......

Also the speech "unprotected place" doesn't add up IMO....cause if u talk about unprotected place,then everyone is unprotected and should loose to Uryuu and Quincy!

Uryuu would win just because he is slightly faster,and has more experience and tools up his sleeve.

PS.
Keeping up with a privaron speed,and full blast is not something u can pull out every day...and beside that,people fails in saying Chad is slow for the simple reason that he doesn't have a "NAMED TECHNIQUE"....no one will ever say Chad used Sonido/Shunpo/Hyrenkyaku....isn't it?so no one will ever admit that he is fast cause he can't/doesn't have this named technique...

that could be the reason but regardless at this stage Chad is not know to be able to use a "named" fast technique.

Also you dont undertstand what Light Regen is. what Ishida used in Szaeyl was "sprenger". And are you seriously telling me that chad is tougher than and espada? thats a joke right? The same espada that beat the crap out of Ishida and renji and we KNOw renji would MURDER chad. Chad and Szaeyl are just not in the same playing field.

Light Regen is the technique Ishida used on Ulquiorra. It didnt damage R2 ulquiorra but it looked immense so i would imagine Chad would be pulverised by it. I'm just speculating off of the size of the attack.

Personally I dont understand why chad is so overrated. His growth rate is dubious-he has hollow powers and he couldnt acess them fully until he went to HM. He went to Hm and now he can. It doesnt have much to do with him. He has probably peaked due to that reason. I expect him to learn Cero and sonido at which point his combat ability will go up a lot but I personally dont think that even then he'll be on Ishida's level-he'll be damn close but by that time id imagine Ishida will power up as well as he is always one power up ahead of chad. Because simply in this manga Ishida>chad. To borrow KT's fav phrase-Soredakega (Thats all there is to it)