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Arasor
September 07, 2009, 07:18 PM
I've decided to merge two existing threads - How could Teresa stop the flash sword & Does Teresa have the Pysa? - and rename them in order to leave room for broader discussions when it comes to Pre-emptive Youki Sensing. So please feel free to discuss and compare PYS with any other technique here.


After the recent events with Rafaela and her handling of the Windcutter technique, i began to consider past events:

Every opponent of Clare's Flash Sword (and later Windcutter) that survived it seemed to either be too resilient for the attack to work or able to somehow suprise Clare herself before she could direct the sword to that direction (or in the case of Ophelia, who still lost but put up a good fight-block the technique with enough mass as to exhaust Clare before she reaches her target).

The only exceptions to this were Rafaela and Teresa. Rafaela's special attributes or skills were never directly stated but it was made very clear that the only reason Teresa can match the flash sword was through her incomparable yoki sensing capabilities.

So far so good, but how could Teresa, who didn't even release her yoki once when facing Irene's quick sword (the strongest user of that skill so far) be able to deflect an attack with such speed? to take it into a bit more realistic context, even if someone told me right now that in 3 seconds my house will completely explode, i wouldn't make it to the exist in time. In that vain, how can Teresa possibly block an attack that much faster then her even if she knows where to block? It's not like she awakened her own arm to be able to act with that speed.

Goral
September 08, 2009, 04:00 AM
I've debated on this countless times on animesuki. Basically Teresa had to be faster than Irene and that's it. Not only she had to possess immense strength and speed but also motion sensing, reflexes and thought process that were at god like level. The best proof of that is when she was fighting four warriors at once. Even then Irene couldn't injure her!

You can find more arguments going by the links below:
1) http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=2571444#post2571444
http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=2573852#post2573852
http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=2575970#post2575970
http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=2578852#post2578852
http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=2580648#post2580648
http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=2590813#post2590813
http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=2585092#post2585092
http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=2586995#post2586995
http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=2589033#post2589033

If you want to read all discussion start with link #1 and then follow my next posts. I've omitted deliberately some of my posts that are in between and there are many more arguments that indirectly answer your question. Indirectly because they're about Priscilla being slower than Teresa and not because of PYS (Pre-emptive Youki Sensing).

Arasor
September 08, 2009, 08:22 PM
Wow, talk about an efficent response! Thanks mate, if nothing else this are bound to be an interesting read. :D

Zefyris
September 12, 2009, 11:31 AM
There is some info about this in the claymore databook.
It's because of her youki perception actually.
here is a C:C of a rough translation of it :


TECHNICAL SKILL

Detailed youki perception

An example of a specialised application for battle of an high ability in youki perception.
Even the youki-raging flash sword is accurately perceived and overwhelmed.
This is an high level technique which cannot be handled by anyone except Teresa, surpassing all abilities.
Because the kousokuken is all about awakening your arm, there is a lot of youki in it, therefore, for teresa, countering it is easy as pie.
She does have some problems with people that she CANNOT perceive (like priscilla). Other are just no match for her (except if they are overwhelmingly fast, like the awakened priscilla, but that's just an exception).

It's just like how clare was able in her first fight against an awakaned being to avoid being it by his attacks.
Teresa is a godlike Warrior even without her perception skill, so she's freaking fast, and really skilled with her sword. And because of her perception abilities, even the few people which move faster than her can't win.

Goral
September 12, 2009, 01:45 PM
I can't agree with you on that. Firstly, I wouldn't rely on databooks too much if only for the fact that informations written in it are from organization's point of view and they don't know everything. The stats are only inexact estimations of power. Inexact because for example Ophelia's first three stats (youki, strength, agility) which were all A allowed her to win against SS Female AB. 1 quite strong warrior + 2 average + 1 weak warrior managed to kill SS male awakened being, Teresa S/A warrior easily killed SSS+ Awakened Being (or even stronger, Duph was SSS+/SSS warrior). In particular case of PYS I don't see how the org could know how did it work. For all we know they could ask Teresa (and she could lie about it because otherwise it would mean she was too strong, just like she lied when she defeated Rosemary). Also when estimating these stats they had to compare to sth (maybe themselves ), so the question is Alicia's power is S relative to whom ? Don't think they had an eye such good as Galatea in Teresa's era so direct measurement was impossible I think.

Secondly, QS is special. It doesn't matter that there is youki in the arm since all of it is stored there and you can't know the difference between the attacks because of constant flow (always at maximum). It's berserker's arm, where there is an infinite amount of slashes and unless you would have at least equal speed as your opponent you would be dead. Read my comments on animesuki forum and you will better understand what I mean.
As for Clare, PYS was working only on long-range, spread attacks, we don't know whether Teresa used it in her fight against Irene and co. in cases other than sneak attacks. And explain to me, how come Teresa could defeat four warriors at once if she was slower? That's just stupid way of thinking that PYS can give you that much of an advantage. Besides, PYS is not 100% effective (http://yfrog.com/09claymore8128j) and somehow Teresa was never hit during the fight. Seriously, before you get into argument with me read my previous comments please. I don't want to repeat myself and there are tons of arguments I've came up with.

kaliayev
September 14, 2009, 12:17 AM
Inexact because for example Ophelia's first three stats (youki, strength, agility) which were all A allowed her to win against SS Female AB. 1 quite strong warrior + 2 average + 1 weak warrior managed to kill SS male awakened being, Teresa S/A warrior easily killed SSS+ Awakened Being (or even stronger, Duph was SSS+/SSS warrior). In particular case of PYS I don't see how the org could know how did it work. For all we know they could ask Teresa (and she could lie about it because otherwise it would mean she was too strong, just like she lied when she defeated Rosemary). Also when estimating these stats they had to compare to sth (maybe themselves ), so the question is Alicia's power is S relative to whom ? Don't think they had an eye such good as Galatea in Teresa's era so direct measurement was impossible I think.

While it's true that data book is designed to reflect the org's estimation, thus limiting its overall accuracy, of various warriors' stats, if it were as severely limited as you think it is, there would be no point, from the author's standpoint, in going through the trouble of creating it as supplemental material.

Ophelia's victory over the awakened being she encountered during the events of endless gravestones isn't really relevant. We are primarily examining the stats of those who use the QS, PYS, and those involved in the battle from marked for death. However, since you chose to include Ophelia, I will counter your doing so. Ophelia won because the awakened being underestimated former and chose not to decapitate the former. Thinking the former was dead, the latter allowed an opening for the former to use a sneak attack. One then needs to combine that with the former's special technique, the rippling blade. In essence, it would be nearly as deadly as Alicia's makeshift chainsaw. Due to the similarities between the two techniques, Ophelia's rippling blade was a perfect technique for chopping up opponents with tough hides (even more effective than Jean's technique because of the latter's charge time). Regardless of Ophelia's other stats, this technique enabled her to rise to #4 and easily incapacitate/destroy awakened beings whenever such opponents left an opening.

This brings me to my point about the databook: the importance of a claymore's technique. Let's say that the stats of each claymore are meant to serve as complements to each claymore's respective technique. The windcutter would be complemented by Flora's stats. The qs would be complemented by Ilena's stats. The most important item to catalog is the technique. The stats recorded are important insomuch as they complement the claymore's technique and measure the raw talent of a given claymore (you probably don't want to deal with this, but Priscilla time).

I see from the links you've provided that you insist Priscilla never would have been a match for Teresa (forgive me, I haven't read all of your posts and the counters because the discussion appeared to devolve into flaming). Using the point above, your argument concerning Priscilla's ultimate potential falls apart. The only ability Priscilla had been able to adequately master was yoki suppression, which is a fairly standard technique and is generally mastered during periods of exile. This technique alone has great potential for defeating Teresa's PYS, and in itself was a great accomplishment for someone who had just been certified (becoming #2 just after certification, without any personalized techniques, illustrates her ultimate potential). When Clare was certified, she became #47 with barely any understanding of Teresa's PYS. Yet, given the proper amount of time, she has risen to the point where she can easily challenge conventional single-digits and most awakened beings. To do this, she partially awakened (several times), appropriated the techniques of several other claymores, and gained the arm of a former #2. Miria rose to #6 through her mirage technique. Meanwhile, Priscilla had only just begun her ascent and Teresa had essentially reached her peak, though only two individuals knew its height. Teresa's "peerless" PYS was useless during her initial fight with Priscilla. Both fighters had to rely upon their eyes and combat experience. Obviously, at the time, Teresa was superior in this regard. With a more personalized technique, especially one that doesn't rely on Yoki flow (i.e. Flora's windcutter), or more training, primarily in fundamental swordplay, Priscilla would have been able to dispatch Teresa (hell, between Priscilla and Teresa, the former ultimately had the first opportunity to deliver a death blow in marked for death. However, the former chose not exploit Teresa's aloofness in that case. The irony permeating marked for death really is precious).

Like you properly argue on animesuki, Ilena's comment that Priscilla would surpass Teresa should be dismissed. However, this doesn't refute the argument that Priscilla would surpass Teresa in time. There were two people capable of gauging Teresa's power: Raphaela and Teresa, obviously. Because of this, we can only rely on the predictions of these two individuals when it comes to determining who has the potential to challenge Teresa. This negates Ilena's prediction. However, Teresa did in fact make a prediction: "blah blah blah not sure I'll win next time." I see this outlook as no better than Riful's prediction that she only had a 50-50 chance of defeating the merged abyssal early in the latter's awakening or Alicia's prediction that she'd only be able to cause 50% damage to Riful during purgatory, and I doubt Teresa saw it differently than I do. Additionally, time ultimately would be on Priscilla's side. She could grow rapidly in the future, while Teresa would fail to improve anything but her yoki suppression while playing mommy to Clare. That is, Priscilla's blade would have sharpened and Teresa's would have dulled.

Finally, there's the org's assessment. Again,, in theory, we can't rely too heavily on it. However, the evaluation stated that Priscilla's yoki potential surpassed even Teresa's. You are working under the assumption that the org made that evaluation based on the most current data they had available. Why would they do this if they were aware of Teresa's false representation of her power (because it was so hard to figure out that Teresa was lying to them)? Instead, yoki potential would be fairly standard from the completion of hybridization. This reading wouldn't likely change too greatly during a claymore's career, unless one cheated by partially awakening XD. The initial reading of Teresa's yoki potential would be more reliable than her contemporary stat assessment, as Teresa would not have been in a position to present false data shortly after the hybridization process. This makes it more likely that, in its evaluation of Priscilla, the org compared Priscilla's post-hybridization data with Teresa's.


Secondly, QS is special. It doesn't matter that there is youki in the arm since all of it is stored there and you can't know the difference between the attacks because of constant flow (always at maximum). It's berserker's arm, where there is an infinite amount of slashes and unless you would have at least equal speed as your opponent you would be dead.

There are a lot of holes in the above argument. First, you argue that the qs is a berserker technique. This would be based on the statement Ilena made when she was teaching Clare the qs. The sword is only berserk if one doesn't have the spirit to control it. In the case of Clare, whose spirit is lacking, it would be a berserker technique. Even so, Clare, an amateur with the qs technique, was able to perfectly direct it against the yoki of an opponent in purgatory. By combining PYS and qs, she could gain some control over the latter. However, this only really works against awakened beings. She still lacks proper control when using it against claymores. This would not be the case with Ilena. Ilena was the creator of the technique and remarked that her stats/skills were perfectly suited to the qs. This means she was able to control it.

Second, because the qs can be directed, by default, it can be read. Otherwise, it would always be a truly berserk technique, with both warriors being completely oblivious to the yoki flow/movements. If the qs couldn't be controlled by Ilena, she never would have been placed in a group. The risk of her injuring her allies would be too great to justify such placement. Instead, the manga shows her making precise cuts whenever she uses the technique (i.e. chopping up the tree in fit for battle, not killing Ophelia, and not mistakenly killing Clare during fit for battle). Since Ilena can consciously direct the blade, Teresa can consciously read it through PYS. You seem to be projecting Teresa's inability to properly perceive Priscilla's post 50% release attacks onto Teresa's battle with Ilena. The former involves an entire body releasing so much yoki that the flow can't be read. The latter involved Ilena's yoki being released and then isolated to a single arm. Because that energy was directed into one arm, Teresa, in regards to Ilena, only had to worry about reading said arm.

Third, this requirement of equal/greater speed you argue for. While Teresa's speed, while suppressing her yoki, would have to be near Ilena's, the former's speed would not have to be equal to/greater than the latter's (Teresa could certainly dwarf Ilena's speed by releasing, but she's the type to only exert as much effort as a situation calls for. To deflect the qs, she needn't surpass Ilena's speed). If Teresa intended to go on the offensive and kill Ilena, things would be different. However, it requires less effort to deflect than to attack, especially given Teresa's swordplay skills, which implies having an expertly designed defensive stance (in general, the PYS reduces the amount of effort necessary to counter a yoki reliant opponent. Ilena testified to this herself. Before Teresa released, Ilena said that her own technique surpassed the speed of Teresa's sword, just as Noel and Sophia's respective strengths surpassed Teresa's in the respective categories. For Ilena to make this statement, Teresa would had to have held back every time, including their fight in the hotel room, they faced one another. Even if Teresa could surpass Ilena's speed while deflecting the latter's qs, Teresa would have always kept her speed lower than Ilena's in order to hide her true power). If Ilena tries to exploit Teresa's left side, Teresa need only make a slight movement and make contact with Ilena's blade at the correct spot (when her opponent attacks, Teresa, through her PYS, can exploit any weak point in the delivery. To literally stop the qs, she need only hit it in the right place). After this, Ilena would have to find another point to attack. She would have to wrap the blade around to this new point, while Teresa would have to make another slight movement to compensate. Of course, all of this would occur at lightning fast speed. A normal claymore would have to be able to read the attack and match the qs in speed and power (we saw this with Ophelia, who failed primarily on the first count, as her unique technique would likely be able to keep up with the qs if Ophelia could properly read it). However, we're talking about Teresa's practically peerless technique, not Ophelia's ripple blade or Miria's mirage.


1 quite strong warrior + 2 average + 1 weak warrior managed to kill SS male awakened being, Teresa S/A warrior easily killed SSS+ Awakened Being (or even stronger, Duph was SSS+/SSS warrior).

That's just stupid way of thinking that PYS can give you that much of an advantage. Besides, PYS is not 100% effective (http://yfrog.com/09claymore8128j) and somehow Teresa was never hit during the fight.

Inconsistent. The first two examples illustrate that PYS does give one a significant advantage.

While the link provided does illustrate one of PYS's weaknesses, it doesn't support your line of thought. Clare was in a unique environment, which was specially designed to limit a claymore's ability to fight. She was surrounded by Duff's rods, which confused her PYS. This is why she was unprepared for Duff's attack. When they later fought in recent chapters, Clare could easily anticipate and deflect Duff's rods. Granted, she had grown more powerful since witch's maw, but the simplified environment of the latest encounter worked greatly to her advantage. It's incredibly unlikely that she'll ever again be placed in an environment similar to Riful's fortress in maw/purgatory. She'll sooner encounter one of the PYS's other weaknesses: overflowing yoki in a single body.


Seriously, before you get into argument with me read my previous comments please. I don't want to repeat myself and there are tons of arguments I've came up with.

Sigh, since it's your argument, I'm afraid you're responsible for sifting through relevant posts on the animesuki forum and copying the necessary text to form the body of your argument in this thread (the amount of time it would take for everyone interested in this thread to sift through the relevant posts far exceeds the amount of time it would take for you to copy relevant materials, as you are far more familiar with the forum you provided links to). Had you originally posted your argument on this forum, I would agree that everyone should read your posts. However, since this isn't the case, you're responsible for properly defending your argument here.

p.s. I do commend your use of proper Fillion.

p.p.s. Feel free to counter the holes you perceive in my argument.

p.p.p.s. This thread has been commandeered. Bwa ha ha ha ha.

Goral
September 16, 2009, 03:04 PM
Sorry for the late response but I didn't have time to do it earlier (heck, even now I didn't write all I wanted and I'll have to write supplemental later). Before I begin you can find all images I used for my arguments in this gallery. (http://www.imagebam.com/gallery/6fe6f11ad9d43f0d98075b1130077343/)


While it's true that data book is designed to reflect the org's estimation, thus limiting its overall accuracy, of various warriors' stats, if it were as severely limited as you think it is, there would be no point, from the author's standpoint, in going through the trouble of creating it as supplemental material.
Oh, but there is a point, very pragmatic at that - money. Databooks are for most loyal fans that would like to have everything with Claymore label on it. It's more logical to not add informations that would be revealed later on so to not spoil the fun that comes with reading it in a manga. Simply stating that Teresa was 2.4375 times stronger than Priscilla wouldn't bring that much joy as seeing how Clare squashes her. And I fail to see Yagi's name on any of the databooks. I doubt tat Yagi had to draw anything new for the databooks and as for the content, well it was written from MiB's point of view so many things can be (and most probably are) inaccurate.


Ophelia won because the awakened being underestimated former and chose not to decapitate the former. Thinking the former was dead, the latter allowed an opening for the former to use a sneak attack.
Nonetheless this AB was so weak that he couldn't rip her head off just by twisting it. Ophelia SURVIVED a twist *like this* made to her NECK by awakened single digit. That in itself is something. How many claymores would have still their heads on their necks if sth like that happened to them ? I doubt this awakened used only enough force to twist her neck, what would be the point of that? He wouldn't even know how much strength he has to use. And your argument about rippling sword being almost as deadly as Alicia's chainsaw only supports my statement - these stats are inexact (according to Ophelia almost no one knows about her technique or even no one). I have to disagree though, it's not even close to the power of Alicia's attack (otherwise AB would be dead earlier, when she first touched his head), what's great about it isn't power but unpredictability.
And as for the databooks, they have Yagi's blessing but it wasn't his initiative that led to publish them. And Yagi likes to mislead us, whole Teresa's arc is a proof of that (or that we were led to believe that Isley was stronger than Priscilla, that the Island was the whole world and MiB the only powerful side, that Rosemary was stronger than Teresa etc.). Yes, it's true that techniques complement to the raw talent but the same goes for awakened beings. For example Dauf can shoot rods, Riful can be cut vertically without any damage, Isley can change his arm to almost anything and can shoot homing arrows, and turtle AB can use manipulation technique that is above Galatea's level. All of them have also increased toughness/hardness so it's harder for claymores to injure them then it is for AB to injure claymores. So again, you proved nothing.


Using the point above, your argument concerning Priscilla's ultimate potential falls apart. The only ability Priscilla had been able to adequately master was yoki suppression, which is a fairly standard technique and is generally mastered during periods of exile.
Here's where you're wrong: it's not a standard technique, we know only 9 claymores that managed to do that. Priscilla has an exquisite talent for it and even after she awakened she was able to hide her true power even better than Riful could (which should be impossible). So it's not common. And as we've seen it didn't work on Teresa. The case that you've brought up (Priscilla not using sneak attack on Teresa) would fail. Teresa that never lied (ok, we know one case when she lied) said that she could maybe wounded her. I doubt that though and I'll prove it later on by showing how much faster Teresa was. Putting that aside, you're making a big mistake by using Clare as an example of a warrior whose stats have risen. For starters Clare has Teresa inside so it's not strange that her power would rise and that she managed to defeat Riguald. It was a given she would become incredibly strong. Also she partially-awakened and that changes things a lot. By doing so enough times one can (according to Deneve) use youki that normally would be available at 80% release without any consequences. Now that's not a fair case. If anything you should have used Yuma as an example. Sure, by training you can improve yourself but what claymore would have the luxury to do that, huh? Claymores had to fight youma and awakened beings constantly and they couldn't allow to try out new techniques in real fight with stronger opponents. Yuma had no such restraints. She could fight more powerful adversaries and strengthen herself without worries and by fighting different claymores she could really improve her stats because every one had different techniques and strength. If Teresa had 7 years to train with abyssals I guarantee you that she would improve no less than Priscilla would. The problem was that Teresa fought only small fries - youma. We don't even know whether she fought AB (other than Rosemary). And we know that in Teresa's times AB hunts were exceptional (even #4 and #5 didn't know about it (http://www.onemanga.com/Claymore/24/04/)). So how could Teresa gain experience? How could she have advantage over novice Priscilla? Besides that she knew her youki limits she had no advantage over Priscilla *experience-wise*.


There were two people capable of gauging Teresa's power: Raphaela and Teresa, obviously. (...) However, Teresa did in fact make a prediction: "blah blah blah not sure I'll win next time." I see this outlook as no better than Riful's prediction that she only had a 50-50 chance of defeating the merged abyssal early in the latter's awakening or Alicia's prediction that she'd only be able to cause 50% damage to Riful during purgatory, and I doubt Teresa saw it differently than I do. (...)
Firstly, Rafaela wasn't capable of gauging Teresa's power because Teresa almost never released any youki. Her estimation wouldn't be better than Irene's (in fact it should be worse because for all we know she met young Teresa only). As for Teresa's words: "I might be able to beat her now but next time who knows"
IMO Teresa was referring to her 0% youki release state. She didn't want to show even 10% of her strength to others, because that would show what a monster she really is and cause mayhem and destruction (in Isley vs. Priscilla fight it was shown that the fight between 2 abyssals is not good for the environment and what if there were two opponents much stronger than abyssals?). She might have been afraid that to defeat awakened Priscilla she would have to use a lot of youki. Teresa had a unique ability to read youki and thus she knew quite well the extent of Priscilla's power. If Priscilla was such a great threat then definitely Teresa would kill her when she had a chance - before Priscilla awakened - because she knew that the organization wouldn't stop until Teresa's dead or until there wouldn't be a claymore who could take her down. Since the day she met Claire she had a real reason to live, so I don't think she would just throw it away. In that case all of her previous effort would come to waste (like executing savage bandits thus drawing blood hunt on her). Do you think she would value Priscilla's life more than Clare's well being? A moment ago she massacred whole bandit group, I don't think she would hesitate to kill some crazy bitch if she knew she wouldn't be able to handle her in time. The fact is she was confident she could defeat Priscilla every time but at some point she could be forced to use her youki (which was extremely rare in her case). Also notice that not much later Teresa negated her earlier statement by saying: "You can come after me as many times as you want. I will cut you down every time" (vol. 5, p 17, and yes it's past Teresa's comment "I may be able to beat her down, but next time who knows").
Additionally it was the first time when someone with power not infinitely weaker than Teresa's appeared and she was no longer fit for battle because of Clare. Her maternal instincts dominated her warrior ones and Teresa knew that she changed. She just saw a worthy opponent at last, but that doesn't mean that Priscilla had more power. To be honest her statement was very strange considering how easily she defeated 0% Priscilla as well as 80% Priscilla. It seemed to me that she was just being mathematically precise, of course you can't be 100% sure that you will defeat someone that normally you can overpower with one hand tied behind your back. Ultimately she was right, she lost not because she was weaker but because Priscilla used a sneak attack when she had her hands tied (figuratively).
Besides, the whole sentence "I may be able to beat her now, but next time who knows" makes no sense. Why wouldn't she be sure that she could beat rookie Priscilla ? She was leagues above her at the moment she said that and she must have known it. That's another argument that proves Teresa had in mind herself in 0% youki release. Of course it could be that translator took liberties with the original text (according to Sagara Souske it should be sth like this: "Even though I can beat her this time, next time we meet, I won't know what will happen..."). What's most important though are actions not words. For example Teresa referred to Rosemary as "monster" but she squashed her with ease. However I look at it, it seems to be the case here as well. And we've seen Teresa dominating over Priscilla in the whole fight. You can choose to believe her words at this point and ignore her later statement and actions that came with it, that's your choice.


Finally, there's the org's assessment. Again,, in theory, we can't rely too heavily on it. However, the evaluation stated that Priscilla's yoki potential surpassed even Teresa's. (...)
But the thing is that Teresa's stats were greater than Priscilla's:

Teresa of the Faint Smile: No.1 (180 CM Tall)

Yoki: S
Agility: A
Strength: A
Mental: A
Sense: S
Leadership: B

Class: Offensive Type, Pre-Emptive Perception, All-Rounder.

Technique: Detailed Aura Detection

--------------

Priscilla: No.2 (165 CM Tall)

Yoki: A+
Agility: A+
Strength: B+
Mental: D
Sense: A+
Leadership: C

Class: Offensive Type, Yoki-Supression, Rapid Growth.

If these stats were measured just after hybridization process then Priscilla would still be weaker than Teresa (in all domains, maybe besides agility). So even if they compared Priscilla's stats to Teresa's according to databooks Priscilla would still be weaker. And again you're making a BIG mistake by assuming that the org was aware of Teresa's power. I'm sure they knew she was lying after the fight with Rosemary but I'm also sure they didn't know what she was lying about. Actually I'm pretty sure they didn't know Rosemary awakened for a simple reason - Teresa wasn't stupid. Because Teresa wasn't stupid she wouldn't lie about it if she wasn't sure that Rosemary's and her auras (which would be immense) couldn't be sensed (because for example she had the whole area under her supervision and the only one that could sense from such long distances would be her or Galatea). We know that MiB can't sense youki (otherwise Orsay wouldn't ask Teresa what happened and Ermita wouldn't bring Galatea along and there's definite proof of that which I won't bring up unless you will be stupid enough to argue about it) so they wouldn't know what happened.

This implicates another query, how did they evaluate each claymore's and AB's stats? I don't know, maybe they used the first combat experience as a base of their evaluation (Extra scene 4)? For example they measured how much time (but there would be a problem how to measure time) it would take for each claymore to know who the real opponent is and where he is and how much time it would take to strike him down (sensing and strength/agility could be measured there). Also whether one would be charismatic enough to unite other claymores to help and to face the opponent together (leadership and mental). They would have many occasions to do that.
But the most important is the fact that the organization sent Priscilla, Irene, Noel and Sophia to kill Teresa confident that they could manage that. That shows without any doubts that they knew about Teresa next to nothing. Priscilla had a chance only at over 80% (and assuming Teresa wouldn't use any youki) and because it was the point of no return MiB would have to be crazy or retards to sent her knowing that.
Even if we would assume that MiB could measure youki it would still give us insufficient data for a simple reason: the most important stat is youki and almost all other stats depend on it. For example Galatea's combat stats (agility and strength) aren't particularly impressive but once she releases her youki everything changes (before she released youki she couldn't penetrate Dauff's armor (http://www.imagebam.com/image/20eff049078723), after she did that she cut Dauff a lot, his shoulder's for example (http://www.imagebam.com/image/7dd80049078726)). That is because the factor by which Galatea's power increases is one of the biggest of all claymores. Now what if Teresa's factor exceeded everyone's expectations? That would explain why MiB couldn't properly evaluate her power and it would fit my theory that Teresa was referring to her 0% state. And that there are many arguments that support that I will prove later on.


There are a lot of holes in the above argument. First, you argue that the qs is a berserker technique. This would be based on the statement Ilena made when she was teaching Clare the qs. The sword is only berserk if one doesn't have the spirit to control it. In the case of Clare, whose spirit is lacking, it would be a berserker technique. Even so, Clare, an amateur with the qs technique, was able to perfectly direct it against the yoki of an opponent in purgatory. By combining PYS and qs, she could gain some control over the latter. However, this only really works against awakened beings. She still lacks proper control when using it against claymores. This would not be the case with Ilena. Ilena was the creator of the technique and remarked that her stats/skills were perfectly suited to the qs. This means she was able to control it.
I was thinking the same thing (about holes in your arguments). No. What Irene said was "In short quicksword is a technique where one arm goes berserk with full youma power and the rest of the body strives with all it's might to control it", i.e. arm goes berserk but you can still focus this berserk on certain targets. The arm GOES berserk and THEN you try to constrain it to a certain limit. There is nothing that could indicate it's like you're saying and plenty of things that prove my point (e.g when Irene attacked Ophelia, instead of going after her vital spots she attacked her whole body, why? Because she couldn't control the attack perfectly, what she could do was to tell her arm WHEN to stop), the main being that this sentence means exactly that (unless we will start playing the game "let's prefer our own interpretation over literal meaning"). That's like having an aggressive dog. While you can't fully control it, you can constrain it's movements and targets. QS is similar, in Irene's version you can't control the precise movements of it. What you use your mental strength for is preventing it from losing control over it and starting awakening (like Clare did (http://www.imagebam.com/image/81022c49079328)). Even in Clare's version it's still not perfect, she can't control minute movements of it (http://www.imagebam.com/image/6ecfb949079468) and can't adjust strength nor speed of an attack, she can only attack at full power (that's why Clare didn't want to use it against Flora at first). QS can't be fully controlled for a simple reason: inertia.
Also I don't understand why are you stating that Clare lacks control when using it against claymores? We've seen that Clare can not only choose specific targets but also avoid objects that have youki. We don't know to what degree Clare reads youki during this process, maybe it's more like Isley's homing arrows or Nina's shadow hunter (although she can do more than just attacking a target, she can also ignore other targets that have youki hence she could chop the wood and leave Jean unharmed. That's a fact, whether she can also do the same with targets that don't emit youki remains a mystery).
The biggest mistake you did this time was sth entirely else though. You've assumed that Irene had better control over a QS and that's not true. Irene could be considered as a master of this technique not because she could control it but because she had more strength and could use it as many times as she wanted for as long as she wanted (AFAWK) and Clare's version was much weaker (even weaker than Flora's Wind Cutter, WC in short - forgive me for using such ambiguous abbreviation :P) and she could last only a minute (at best). In terms of precision Irene's version didn't come even close to Clare's. We have the proof of that when she encountered Teresa for the first time and destroyed everything within her reach (http://www.imagebam.com/image/d157f149079828) (that's why they paid the innkeeper money, QS was a berserker's technique that made too much destruction). I really doubt that she was doing this to impress Teresa, most probably she started using this technique the moment she went into the room to prevent Teresa from reading her move beforehand, i.e.using PYS. Because she had her arm already in motion it would be impossible for Teresa to read the move before it started, i.e. Teresa could stop Irene's QS at any time she wanted. Also notice that Irene didn't say "don't worry, I have great control over it" but "don't worry, it'll be over before she wakes". But let's get back to the control issue. "Until recently I didn't think of the QS as sth that could be controlled. I just assumed it wasn't nature of this technique (http://www.imagebam.com/image/3764a649080358)", i.e. she knew that Irene couldn't fully control it (and couldn't even control it to the point Clare could).


Second, because the qs can be directed, by default, it can be read. Otherwise, it would always be a truly berserk technique, with both warriors being completely oblivious to the yoki flow/movements. If the qs couldn't be controlled by Ilena, she never would have been placed in a group. The risk of her injuring her allies would be too great to justify such placement. Instead, the manga shows her making precise cuts whenever she uses the technique (i.e. chopping up the tree in fit for battle, not killing Ophelia, and not mistakenly killing Clare during fit for battle). Since Ilena can consciously direct the blade, Teresa can consciously read it through PYS. You seem to be projecting Teresa's inability to properly perceive Priscilla's post 50% release attacks onto Teresa's battle with Ilena. The former involves an entire body releasing so much yoki that the flow can't be read. The latter involved Ilena's yoki being released and then isolated to a single arm. Because that energy was directed into one arm, Teresa, in regards to Ilena, only had to worry about reading said arm.
No. Notice that when Irene fought Teresa Noel and Sophia were out of her reach. So Irene could be placed in the group without worries, it would suffice that when Irene would be fighting other claymore would be in > 2 m radius.
You call that precise cuts (http://www.imagebam.com/image/36efa049080856)? Unless you meant this picture (http://www.imagebam.com/image/160f6149080857), but when she first cut this tree she didn't use QS (otherwise we wouldn't be seeing her arm). Besides, we've never seen Irene using QS as a horizontal move, the cuts made by it were always vertical. As for not killing Ophelia we don't even know whether she wanted to spare her or not, I doubt it was the former because it was a given that so badly injured Ophelia would become an awakened being. It would mean that Irene was sadistic (she wanted Ophelia to become a monster) and irresponsible because she would make a monster that would be more dangerous than she defeated. To me it looked like Irene couldn't control the movements of her sword (that's why she chopped Ophelia all over her body, why didn't she chop her limbs if she wanted to only injure/immobilize her?). If anything she could only control the distance at which she would be attacking her but that has nothing to do with controlling QS itself. The same goes for not injuring Clare (notice that Irene was standing still, i.e. the range of her sword was constant, Clare was the only one that was moving) and because Irene was being defensive only and deflected/parried Clare's cuts. Irene could only roughly direct the blade at some parts of the body but because of the nature of this technique it wouldn't matter on what part of the body she would centre on, she would still attack many other parts. It would still allow her to concentrate her strength on a leg for example (and this part would be damaged the most) but it wouldn't prevent her from cutting other areas.
But let's assume for the sake of an argument that you're right. You're still jumping to conclusions by saying that since Ilena can consciously direct the blade, Teresa can consciously read it through PYS. One thing is to control the movements and another to read every single move and analyse the attack. For QS you don't have to be super precise, you don't have to direct every single attack. This is not the case for defending though. Make one mistake and you're injured, have one injury and you will end up dead. Somehow Teresa was never injured, could stop Irene's QS at any time and equally exchange every single move.


Third, this requirement of equal/greater speed you argue for. While Teresa's speed, while suppressing her yoki, would have to be near Ilena's, the former's speed would not have to be equal to/greater than the latter's (Teresa could certainly dwarf Ilena's speed by releasing, but she's the type to only exert as much effort as a situation calls for. To deflect the qs, she needn't surpass Ilena's speed). If Teresa intended to go on the offensive and kill Ilena, things would be different. However, it requires less effort to deflect than to attack, especially given Teresa's swordplay skills, which implies having an expertly designed defensive stance (in general, the PYS reduces the amount of effort necessary to counter a yoki reliant opponent. Ilena testified to this herself.
That's not true. What Teresa does here isn't deflecting. She's exchanging every single hit. Notice the distance between her and Irene. Deflecting can be easier (isn't necessarily) when you have your sword close to your body, not extended to the point Teresa had. Look at the symmetry of this picture. Additionally, while for deflecting you can be slower than your opponent you can't be slower much. And deflecting really isn't easy. Only in anime and most of the movies fights last for a long time. In real life after few seconds one of the opponents dies or is at least cut which leads to death in few seconds later (with every cut your opponent becomes weaker, i.e. it's easier for you to injure him more). Sure, you can deflect fatal blows but the sword could still cut you in the arm or somewhere else while you do that. The problem I have with what you're saying is that Teresa was NEVER cut by it. What's more, knowing that you'll be slashed 53 times/second in the right arm would give you nothing if you can't tell in what angle you have to hold your sword. Quicksword does a constant youki flow, always at maximum, it's not like Riguard's attack with his claws where there was a huge difference between the attacks. Not attacking and then attacking from a distance opposed to incessant attacks with infinitesimal interval. Super reflexes don't require to analyse every attack to miniscule level, PYS does. The problem stays however, quicksword is the worst possible match-up for preemptive youki sensing. You not only need super reflexes and quick thinking. You have to analyse every single move and what's worse you have thousands of such moves and every is distinctive. You would need to have higher speed of thinking than the move itself but that wouldn't be enough. You would need enough capacity of memory to analyse all motions. And even if you could see the move and know where it would come you would still have to prepare for it. Even if you could deflect one, two or three I can't see how you could avoid all of them. Let's say you're sparring with someone and you know that every second move there would be a left/right hook (and only such hits). If after quite a long time you would decide to change the sequence (from left/right to right/left) there would be high chance that you would be so used to the earlier sequence that the first hit you wouldn't dodge. In Irene vs. Teresa it was much more complex. Basically Teresa had to read EVERY move and that is sth unbelievable. What's more, even if Teresa knew all that she would still have to know where to stand and at what angle hold her sword. Analysing all that is IMO a stretch. And that still is not everything. At this point, if someone could do all that it would allow him only for defence. Somehow Teresa could attack any time she wanted! If she really was using pre-emptive youki sensing and if she really had such high speed of thinking then she's even better then I thought at first (and I've always considered her as a goddess).
Another thing that negates your argument is that Teresa still easily won even when she was fighting four warriors at once. Tell me, how come could she be slower than Irene and not be injured by others?


Before Teresa released, Ilena said that her own technique surpassed the speed of Teresa's sword, just as Noel and Sophia's respective strengths surpassed Teresa's in the respective categories.
For Ilena to make this statement, Teresa would had to have held back every time, including their fight in the hotel room, they faced one another. Even if Teresa could surpass Ilena's speed while deflecting the latter's qs, Teresa would have always kept her speed lower than Ilena's in order to hide her true power). If Ilena tries to exploit Teresa's left side, Teresa need only make a slight movement and make contact with Ilena's blade at the correct spot (when her opponent attacks, Teresa, through her PYS, can exploit any weak point in the delivery. To literally stop the qs, she need only hit it in the right place). After this, Ilena would have to find another point to attack. She would have to wrap the blade around to this new point, while Teresa would have to make another slight movement to compensate. Of course, all of this would occur at lightning fast speed. A normal claymore would have to be able to read the attack and match the qs in speed and power (we saw this with Ophelia, who failed primarily on the first count, as her unique technique would likely be able to keep up with the qs if Ophelia could properly read it). However, we're talking about Teresa's practically peerless technique, not Ophelia's ripple blade or Miria's mirage.
It's true that Irene made such a statement but it's also true that a while later, when she better understood Teresa's power she admitted that she misjudged her AGAIN (so it wasn't the first time). So yes, it can only mean that Teresa was holding back. The first time Irene fought Teresa (that wasn't shown in the manga) Teresa used only enough force to defeat Irene (who was weaker at this point, we know it after Teresa's comment "You've gotten better"). The second time (in the inn) she used only enough force and speed to exchange every move and not injure Irene. She was also adjusting her strength to Priscilla's level and gradually got faster. She became more serious only after Irene, Noel and Sophia joined the fight.
As for the "slight movements" and "she only had to make contact with Irene's sword at the correct point", it's easier said than done. PYS wouldn't help Teresa with that. And I disagree that Ophelia's technique could match Irene's even if she could read Irene's moves. QS was too fast compared to Ophelia's technique and unless Ophelia had equal speed as Irene she wouldn't be able to do that. Additionally Irene had that advantage that she was the one that attacked first, so there was a lag before PYS could be used. Teresa couldn't read a move before the move was made. The problem was that Teresa made a move when QS was already in motion so PYS couldn't give her an advantage.


Inconsistent. The first two examples illustrate that PYS does give one a significant advantage.
The first example shows that male AB wasn't really that strong if he could be defeated by Clare and Miria (mainly by Clare, she was the one that cut his arms off, Miria only helped a bit). All he had to do was to dodge her attack but apparently he was too slow to do that. Well, it's no surprise since she has Teresa inside, but it had nothing to do with PYS which didn't increase Clare's speed because it was a defensive technique. The second example though is perfectly valid. Teresa didn't use PYS against Rosemary, she didn't even try to dodge the attacks. All of her comments was a scene to make Rosemary believe that. Actually it's a great argument that supports my statement that when Teresa said "I may be able to beat her now but next time who knows" she was bullshitting like she did when fighting Rosemary. She allowed to be trashed by Rosemary and she let her believe for a moment that she was weaker. She got serious only after she made a twist *like this*. Show me a claymore that could do sth like this to an awakened #2 without releasing any youki. I'm not even sure Miata could do this (we know that she defeated AB with her bare hands but we don't know whether some of them were single digits at least). Also I have another example to add - awakened Ophelia. How come could MiB evaluate her strength? They could only guess that awakened Ophelia had to be extremely weak so it would be possible for Clare to defeat her and they gave her stats that are stupidly low. It would mean that claymore Ophelia was STRONGER than awakened one because she defeated Hilda that (according to the stats) was stronger than awakened Ophelia!


While the link provided does illustrate one of PYS's weaknesses, it doesn't support your line of thought. Clare was in a unique environment, which was specially designed to limit a claymore's ability to fight. She was surrounded by Duff's rods, which confused her PYS. This is why she was unprepared for Duff's attack. When they later fought in recent chapters, Clare could easily anticipate and deflect Duff's rods. Granted, she had grown more powerful since witch's maw, but the simplified environment of the latest encounter worked greatly to her advantage. It's incredibly unlikely that she'll ever again be placed in an environment similar to Riful's fortress in maw/purgatory. She'll sooner encounter one of the PYS's other weaknesses: overflowing yoki in a single body.
I was hoping you would counter it with this argument :). It's true that the rods made it much harder for Clare to use PYS but that doesn't change the fact that PYS wasn't perfect. The main reason why Clare was hit was because she was too slow to react. She didn't have to rely on PYS to know the attack was coming, she saw the rod coming from his mouth, all she had to do was dodge it or parry it or slow it even a bit (by activating a QS for example) but she didn't do a thing. She wasn't too slow though after she released her youki and managed to parry Dauf's attack (because she was faster and stronger). Even better example is this picture (http://www.imagebam.com/image/9be58e49082093). Also notice that somehow she could use improved version of QS (when using PYS) and concentrate on specific targets (Dauf's arms) while ignoring the rest (Jean). If she could do it then that it would mean she was able to discern quite well specific targets, i.e. she should have seen a change in Dauff's youki when he started burping a rod. The opponent before her was using youki to create a rod, she must have known it but wasn't fast enough.
What's maybe even a stronger argument is that Teresa was also at a disadvantage when Priscilla, Noel, Sophia and Irene released their youki. She had four opponents propagating youki in all directions and assuming what you're thinking (i.e. that Teresa used PYS at this point) it should be very hard for Teresa to do it just like was the case when she was fighting almost awakened Priscilla. Despite these disadvantages of PYS Teresa was never wounded. OK, she was wounded once by Priscilla but she was over 50% at this point. Once Teresa released 10% of her youki she was dominating again.

P.S
What proper Fillion looks like?
P.P.S.
Thank you for allowing me that (lol).
P.P.P.S
To be continued...

rukori
September 19, 2009, 04:37 PM
........

So much text... Sorry but I'm not going to try reading it...

In simple words, I think Teresa knew where every hit of Irene was going to hit and was able to parry it with minimal movements.

There were similar abilities in other shounen mangas so it shouldn't be such a surprise ( Sharingan for example).

Here's something I found ( familiar right!?):

http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/1734/kureiaa.jpg

Goral
September 20, 2009, 04:27 AM
@rukori
This is what happens when people take Naruto as source of their knowledge and try to apply that knowledge to Claymore world. Sharingan is one of the most illogical things there are in Naruto. Of course it's only a manga and no one requires from Kishimoto to make it realistic but the difference with Claymore is that Yagi at least tries to apply some laws of physics (we have already seen inertia, dynamic friction, gravity, restoring force, etc.) to his world and tries to reasonably explain techniques of his characters and not use the argument "it's like that because I say so". He created a world were certain rules apply to all characters and he sticks with it. That's one of the reasons I like Claymore, because the world is quite coherent. So referring to Naruto while talking about Claymore is pointless because these mangas are entirely different.
Why do I think that PYS wasn't the technique that helped Teresa to win against the QS? Because I could score a goal from 2 meters even if I told goalkeeper where I would shoot, 10 times out of 10. Imagine there would be second player that would shoot second later at the other side of the goal-post, mission impossible (this analogy best applies to this image but I will write about it at a later time) (http://www.imagebam.com/image/e6081b45377635/).
Youki sensing is an advantage when you fight slower opponent with sneaky attacks or to prevent being attacked by surprise. As we've seen in Slasher's arc it was quite effective with many spread or ranged attacks. The difference with Irene and Teresa is that quicksword isn't a spread attack, at point blank range there are quite precise slashes executed with super speed. Once arm is awakened the flow of youki is constant and at full power, there are no "lags" between one attack and another which would be caused by slower or non simultaneous youki flow and attack. If Teresa's youki sensing would be faster than Irene's youki flow it would still give her nothing because she wouldn't be able to react before next attack was coming. She had to have at least Irene's speed to back it up (and that would only allow her to defend, to attack and NEVER BE INJURED she would have to be faster).

Teresa would still have to be at least as fast as Irene because Irene would always have the advantage that she would send the signal to move earlier than Teresa could use PYS. Pre-emptive youki sensing (PYS in short) couldn't have been much faster than Irene's flow of youki, otherwise she wouldn't know where exactly Irene would strike because Irene had all of her youki stored only in her arm and had it released always at maximum. Discerning an attack of this sort would be extremely difficult. (All she would know would be that youki flows in the specific part of a hand but she wouldn't know which part EXACTLY. Because only arm was used, only the arm would move but how could she discern attack if she knew it too early? She could only approximate where it could go but not know that 100 times of 100. Even if she knew to which part it would go she would have to know where the attack would land and I don't see how she could do that with a quicksword. The motions were complicated because Irene swung her sword in all directions). And if she knew it the moment it reached specific part she would still have to be AS FAST AS IRENE. If Irene's attacks where periodic and Teresa had it all figured out (which would be impossible if she didn't have super-computer in her head) she would still not know when to parry and how to parry.
What's more, when Irene faced Teresa she was ALREADY using quicksword (we can see her chopping a table or sth - picture 1) but still Teresa could stop it when she wanted. Teresa didn't have enough time to read the move that already was in motion. She had to be faster! She also could exchange every hit (pic 2 - these are not minimal movements contrary to what you're saying):

1)http://thumbnails15.imagebam.com/4528/1e56db45271039.gif (http://www.imagebam.com/image/1e56db45271039) 2) http://thumbnails16.imagebam.com/4527/f3b9fc45260632.gif (http://www.imagebam.com/image/f3b9fc45260632)

And there is one thing you (and others of similar opinion to yours) ignore. You're assuming that Teresa can adjust her position and use only minimal movements to dodge/parry but so can Irene. If you assume that dodging parrying is easier and that Irene was faster then explain to me how come Teresa managed to injure Irene in a split of a second (http://www.imagebam.com/image/e6081b45377635/) while at the same time escaping from Priscilla's and Irene's swings? How come Irene didn't parry/dodge her attack if she was faster and what's more if parrying the attack required only minimal movements, huh?
http://thumbnails11.imagebam.com/4944/6941cf49437816.gif (http://www.imagebam.com/image/6941cf49437816)

In fact Irene could use PYS to her advantage. Since she would know that Teresa would know where she would strike all she had to do was to add some randomness to her attacks. Without using youki she could suddenly crouch, lean back or even change the angle of attack by bouncing it off a wall. Heck, she could even spit at Teresa and blind her/distract her for a second. Irene knew it wouldn't help because Teresa wasn't using PYS when fighting her.
Teresa wouldn't be able to PYS Irene's leg's movements or movement of another hand or when the attack would be random because youki wouldn't be needed for that! There would be no change of youki flow because she wouldn't need youki to move her leg. In QS all youki is concentrated in an arm, i.e. not only reading of moves (that use always maximum amount of it and youki as always in the same place) of that arm is impossible, it also means that you can't read when this someone is using other parts of his body !!!
Last but not least, the easiest way to defeat Teresa was for Irene to occupy her with incessant barrage of attacks and other Claymore could stab her in the back. Wait... They tried it not only with one warrior but 4 and it FAILED! No matter how I look at it, Irene was slower than Teresa.

P.S.
I've added thumbnails and bolded/underlined more important arguments in my response so that users that can't read too fast would know what I meant.

P.P.S.
To be continued...

rukori
September 20, 2009, 05:44 PM
Another wall of text? You really like to ramble...

I think you are just being stubborn and refuse to open your eyes. Teresa broke through the Flash-sword using her Youki reading abilities.

There's nothing illogical about it. Unlike a wide goal, Teresa only had to cover for her own body, and with small movements she was able to block in time Irene's. If you insist on arguing about such obvious things, then this is getting nowhere.

And last: There is nothing logical about Claymore. All this talk everyone here and at animesuki are always having is getting them nowhere because the physical rules don't apply and the talks are baseless.

Unholy
September 21, 2009, 11:14 AM
Cant believe there is this much discussion over something so minor.Im gonna be honest i havent read all this posts nor do i intent to do it.However im gonna give my opnion, first of all there is usually 2 kinds of mangas when it comes down to fights, one that dosent really care about explaining how stuff works or even make it believable, examples would be naruto or dbz they just come up with a very simple explanation something along the lines "there is a thing called ki (dbz) or chacra (naruto) and u can do amazing super human things with it", and there is the other kind of manga that tries to explain every trick or skill in details in a believable way using physical laws or whatever other means claymore is this kind of manga.

In a sense claymore and all the other mangas are like a hollywood movie while everything they show u make sense on a first look and seem quite possible in reality they are not.A good example is a hollywood hero jumping from a 20 floor building into a poll and surviving it looks possible for most people but if u try it on real like u would die since hiting the water from such height would be the same as hitting concrete.I think this is what rukori was trieng to say in his last post, it might make sense and look real but mangas dont have to be perfect copies of reality the author has freedom to make whatever he wants as long it looks believable and as for such using physics to explain everything that happens is a waste since the mangaka is not forced to follow reality.

For example the fight between Irene and Theresa i agree that in the real world Theresa could never win unless she was faster since besides knowing where the attack is comming she would need time to react to it and mover her body and even them it would prolly be impossible to block a huge number of blows at a high speed even if u knew where they were all comming however this is not reality the mangaka has the freedom as i wrote previously to do whatever he wants as long as it dosent look far too out of reality like he could make as if the ability to predict where the blow is comming a far better advantage than to be faster and in this scenario a slower Theresa could win against a faster Irene with her ability to predict, it would be belivable for most readers as long as the difference in speed was not too big.Btw im not gonna say this is what happened but im just trieng to show u the mangaka has the freedom to play any situation the way he likes it and overanalysing it wont get u anywhere.

Goral
September 21, 2009, 02:19 PM
You speek as if it was a single move. Where did you get this from? It's many small moves that Teresa can read according to the Youki bursts before actual hits.(There was an explanation about it somewhere, look for yourself)
Huh? How can you say that? I've emphasized in almost every post in this thread that Irene was throwing at Teresa incessant number of attacks, barrage of attacks. In fact, in the fragment you quoted there, you have it in black and white "barrage of her attacks". See Unholy's post, maybe you will understand his explanation.


Some laws apply, where it is convinient for the author, and some are ignored for the same reason. example: When Jean usees her spinning move, if it was in reality it should have created a really small hole, but why did it create a hole bigger than her body? So it would look more impressive!
Stop playing a scientist, it only makes you seem more lame...
I'm not playing scientist, how did you expect me to counter your argument "in claymore physics don't apply" other then writing factual examples, huh? Did you want me to say: "Yes they apply. The end."? If people could understand what I have in mind after reading only one sentence I would do that. Unfortunately to prove I'm right I have to write these walls of text with tons of arguments.
But back to the heart of the matter, Jean's example isn't a good one. In fact I'm impressed that Yagi was that thorough. Have you ever drilled? The drilled hole is always bigger than the drill bit and that's mainly because you can't prevent it from swaying (mainly because you can't hold the drill properly or/and because the drill isn't sharp enough but there are also other factors. You can see it especially well in a spade drill which resembles claymore the most). The most important thing in this situation is sth entirely different though and that is material that you drill in. Take your thumb and stick it to an extended plastic foil and rotate it. I guarantee you that the hole you will make will be much bigger than your thumbs perimeter. If you tried to to do the same (with larger force of course) to your skin it wouldn't look to good. So all depends on what Dauf's armor was made of.


Why? you are making up things again. Did anyone say it's true? Your logic is weird and full of flaws...
She finds out about the second move before it comes, and reacts accordingly. I'm not saying that she can do it if she is very slow, but she doesn't have to be faster than Irene.
If I sparred with someone not much slower than me and told him exactly were I would hit in the next 10 blows he would still be hit, because even though he could evade the first blow with my every next move he would have less time to react because of the gap in our speed. (It's like with a rabbit and a turtle. No matter how much of a distance advantage the turtle would have after enough time he would be outrun by a rabbit.) If he attacked me because I would be faster I could dodge and hit him at the same time! So if I could hit at the avg. speed of 20m/s and my opponent could react at the speed of 15 m/s and the distance between me and him would be one meter (1m) I would hit him in about 1/20 of a second so he would have to dodge/block it before I started the move. He can't dodge/block it at the speed I can. Additionally to dodge he would have to be able to make a move large enough to evade being even grazed, as for blocking he would have to know at what angle exactly to hold a sword, at what distance to be, exactly when to react (which would be the hardest part, PYS doesn't tell you that, you react ASAP) etc. So parrying would have to be that much faster than attacking and it would only allow him to defend. He would not be able to make a single attack because if he did attack, then to go back to the position that allowed him to make a small movement and use the advantage of parrying he would have to move his hand back (and he could do it at maximum at 15 m/s speed, what about the time required to parry the attack?)!!! And what about the second blow? Sure, he could at the same time try to attack me but it would end at best with a double hit (and Teresa was never hit once she released youki, overall she was hit once). If I was indeed faster I could dodge it and at the same time launch another attack at the speed of 20 m/s and he wouldn't have bonus time then. Even though he would know where I would hit and even WHEN (I would hit him if he reacted too soon because I could make a slight change in my move), my speed advantage would allow me to adjust my move a bit and the timing would be different and although you would receive this information you wouldn't be fast enough to change your move because of our speed difference. Also, it's one thing to dodge+parry hits and just parry hits. Especially in sword fighting !!! Parrying without dodging and exchanging every single move would be impossible if you weren't faster.
That's a general rule (it applies for example to Priscilla). Now let's take into account that Irene couldn't control her arm. It wouldn't matter because the berserk arm would make these adjustments for her (unless QS is something periodical, still Teresa would have to have super-computer in her head to see a pattern of such moves). Sure, Teresa could parry some of the attacks but at some point berserk arm would make a move that would for example shake Irene's wrist and whole Teresa's reading would become useless. In fact berserk arm makes QS a random attack!!!


Irene can't make adjustments! She was never able to control it like Clare can! She always treated that technique as something incontrollable. a sort of a "berserk" mode
That "adding randomnesss" talk is just as bad.. You completely made that up! why don't you try to stick with the storyline a little instead of trying to decide how Irene should fight?
In case you didn't notice I was talking in general, to Priscilla this argument fits perfectly (and according to Irene she was leagues above her, probably faster since only when she fought Teresa the sound was unbearable and "could shatter glass"). Also, as I stated above because Irene's hand was berserk the attacks were random (Irene had to try to restrain her arm as well as she could but there were bound to be some "hiccups" during this process). And Irene could still move her body, her other hand or legs to make sudden sidestep and that would be undetectable to Teresa (we know she could use it and move because when we've seen her for the first time Irene was walking and cutting youma) and that way change the movements of her attacks.

As for the randomness, actually I didn't make it up (see below), and even if there would be no such example in Claymore, it would still support my argument not yours. The fact is that Irene never tried to take advantage of Teresa's PYS and if Teresa was really using it during the fight with her then she would be more stupid than Priscilla who tried to take advantage of that (Irene thought that Teresa knew the move she was making before she even made it, why not make things complicated to Teresa?).
Teresa WAS injured by such unpredictable attack (http://www.imagebam.com/image/e6f72645928442) (see images 2 and 3), i.e. she couldn't predict it even though she was master of PYS (I think we can both agree that she was much more skilled than Clare in that). Exclamation marks suggest (image 1) that she wasn't expecting such attack would come (and the fact she was injured suggest that too of course). Nonetheless, once she released her youki she could do it (image 4).


---->1)http://thumbnails3.imagebam.com/4593/a0c69645928441.gif (http://www.imagebam.com/image/a0c69645928441) 2)---->http://thumbnails16.imagebam.com/4593/e6f72645928442.gif (http://www.imagebam.com/image/e6f72645928442) 3)---->http://thumbnails14.imagebam.com/4593/1dedbe45928443.gif (http://www.imagebam.com/image/1dedbe45928443) 4)---->http://thumbnails17.imagebam.com/4593/29ce8745928444.gif (http://www.imagebam.com/image/29ce8745928444)

And you're still evading answering how come she could fight 4 warriors at once, defeat all of them and never be injured.

vintagemistakes
September 21, 2009, 09:29 PM
Lets play nice people.

If you want to counter someones argument than thats fine, but lets not resort to name calling or calling someones argument rubbish or retarded. Its completely unproductive and takes away from whatever point you were trying to make.

Thanks

makaveli80
October 04, 2009, 08:28 PM
yeah seriously. people are making long epic posts, like essays, and that's very cool. I'm always eager to learn what other people are thinking about my fav character in all of existance, still...some arguments give me pause to think, but others are not provable so it's all a matter of opinion.

Personally, I chalk it up to the fact that we simply have not seen the true power that Teresa contained with herself. My belief is that base Teresa was in fact, much faster than Irene even with her QS. The physics of it, the logic behind it, and all that good stuff is irrelevant to me in this case, because my dear Teresa of the faint simile will be eternally the strongest creature to ever walk those lands ( perhaps with the exception of Clare who also contains Teresa within her)

Still, I doubt that even Clare, in her base form, will ever come close to what Teresa was. Perhaps in her awakened, and semi awakened forms she could challenge base Teresa, which is in itself a huge compliment considering that a fully awakened Rosemary, former number 1 was taken out so easily by Teresa who used 10% Yoki release for laughs.

HegemonKhan
January 19, 2010, 04:12 PM
There's not much left to address as Goral did (like usual) stellar professional top-notch work and research (which, also means lots of content/explanation/evidence, aka a long long read).

i'll only say this piece of my own (hopefully ~excluding what goral has already addressed) ...


"How could Teresa stop the Flash Sword?" -topic

1. Teresa's natural abilty
OR
2. Teresa's "Faint Smile" ability

(it could also be a combination of both, but that isn't useful/relevant here. it doesn't answer anything)

so.... which is it?

(see below for my thinking... of what little Goral left me with, lol)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Irene's Quick Sword:

Noel, Sophia, and Ophelia could NOT even see it. Ophelia shows us how completely helpless she was, standing there confused as her body was sliced up.


Yet, then we have Teresa...

I don't know if we can tell for sure if Teresa used her "Faint Smile" ability to follow Irene's Quick Sword or if Teresa was simply that incredible with her own body, swordsmanship, and "human" abilities.


now we have Priscilla....

we don't know if Claymore Priscilla or AO Priscilla could do as fast or faster sword strikes then Irene's Quick Sword.

But, what we do know is that Claymore Priscilla wasn't using (originally, at first) any yoki, which means Teresa couldn't be using her "Faint Smile" ability, yet Teresa matched/bested Claymore Priscilla with total ease. this suggests that Teresa does NOT need her "Faint Smile" ability.


~70-79% yoki using/releasing Priscilla....

we DO know that Teresa was (trying to) use her "Faint Smile" ability, as she commented that, "She-Priscilla is releasing so much yoki, even I can't read it". This clearly suggests that Teresa wanted and was trying to use her "Faint Smile" ability to read Priscilla's attacks.

this in **NO** way means/connects to/with Teresa needing or not needing her "Faint Smile" ability against Irene's Quick Sword. But, I have little else to go on, so I am going to pretend this is suggestive... This suggests that Teresa DOES use her "Faint Smile", instead of just her natural ability.

Teresa then gets cut across her forehead. As she couldn't/wasn't/didn't able to predict or react fast enough to Priscilla using her yoma arm extension ability to wrap her recoiling sword arm around her head into another sword attack.

Teresa now "gets serious", releasing 10% yoki. Teresa is now either able to naturally match Priscilla or is now able to read priscilla's yoki with her "Faint Smile" ability once again. Teresa easily matches and bests priscills yet again.


80-100% yoki using/releasing priscilla ...

after getting knocked on her bottom, priscilla releases more yoki, passing her limit. she jumps up and comes down with her sword. with her extra power, Teresa is barely able to parry her sword, grimacing with effort. then, the awakening takes over priscilla, bulking up her muscles ripping her clothes and she drops her sword.

at this moment, 10% yoki teresa is too weak/inferior to 80-100% yoki and Awakening priscilla. however, teresa fatally doesn't raise her own yoki more, and ends up getting decapitated.


Clare training with Irene:

*while we don't know for sure, it is really highly unlikely that irene wouldn't be using her own quick sword to train clare in doing the quick sword.

yet while training clare is able to "see" irene's quick sword* and keep up with it somewhat. (of course, irene is taking it easy, she's training clare, not trying to kill her)

while clare was using her left NON-dominant arm, she was ~1/5 in power and speed of irene's right DOMINANT arm. (quite unfair!)

i can't remember at this moment if Clare improved her left NON-dominant arm up to ~1/2 in power and speed of irene's right dominant arm, or if this 1/2 was AFTER clare got irene's right arm. but i know the manga stated clare's quick sword use reached ~1/2 in power and speed to irene's quick sword use.

i'm sure since then, clare's quick sword has improved, probably surpassing irene's in power and speed by now in chapter 99. (it would really have been helpful to see irene against dauf or rigardo, lol, to finally know just how powerful or unpowerful irene truly was)


Rafaela:

Rafaela had to be able to kill Irene with ease, even if Irene had both her arms still. she was assigned to assassinate/execute irene after all. she then was assigned to assassinate/execute AO Luciela. Rubel himself states that Rafaela has at least equal power to Luciela. Rubel also states to Clare and Jean, that this "rank 5" Rafaela, whom just tracked them down, is "special", aka she's really a rank 1. Irene while powerful, is not of rank 1 material. Luciela is a rank 1. So, everything suggests that Rafaela against Irene would be simple for Rafaela. Sadly, we never get to see if this is indeed true, as when Rafaela got to Irene, she had already given away her remaining arm to Clare, and was now armless.


Clare's Quick Sword:

she is too weak to be able to cut dauf with it in the witches maw chapters.

Flora's windcutter was able to ~match Clare's quick sword during their spar.

Clare's NON-yoki using windcutter (NOT quick sword) was also unable cut dauf.

Clare uses/releases her yoki (which Helen notices and possibly Priscilla...) and slices/defeats/kills the weird rafaela/destroyer image up in the weird mind-dream or illusionary world battle.

Clare's "Faint Smile" ability:

we first and only directly see it in use against the male AB in the slashers chapters. however, clare is still extremely "immature" with using her "Faint Smile" ability still.

FINALLY FINALLY we get see direct use of her "Faint Smile" ability, at long last! Clare is able to read every single one of the huge projectiles' flight paths, admidst all the yokis all around her, and tell-position Helen and Deneve where to "stand" to be completely safe, and at the same time, is able to sense Priscilla's yoki and her approach!

WOW! Clare sure has improved!

(Now if only we could see DIRECTLY what Teresa could do with her "Faint Smile" ability, instead of left wondering whether its Teresa's godly natural ability or if Teresa is merely using her "Faint Smile" ability and isn't "that" godly, lol)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

my conclusion:

Maybe Teresa could very well have the "natural" ability to match/best Irene's Quick Sword, however I feel it is likely that Teresa did indeed at least also used her "Faint Smile" ability as well to match/best Irene's Quick Sword.

I'm basing this off of:

1. Teresa was using her "Faint Smile" ability against 70-79% yoki Priscilla. (which makes perfect sense, as Priscilla is using yoki now, a lot of yoki. I mean the "Faint Smile" ability IS the ultimate "weapon" against opponents whom use yoki, that's what it is for). however, it is suggestive that Teresa might have indeed been using it against irene's quick sword as well.

2. The Quick Sword is a "Berserker" attack, because it utilizes a fully 100% yoki-awakened arm, while the being desperately tries to control/keep the arm from awakening the rest of their body and brain/mind. This means it is highly difficult to actually control/direct the quick sword itself, even if the being can use it.

BUT, this makes it wonderfully easy to read, using the "Faint Smile" ability as 100% yoki is used/focused into the arm to use it. (and YES, it could be too berserk-random to read by the "Faint Smile" ability as well)

Irene's "focus, concentration, mental strength, calmness, coolness" was unmatched. This is how she could not only use the Quick Sword, but also control/direct it, with no strain/effort at all.

Clare, on the other hand, had to use her yoki to control/direct the quick sword, which she realized could be done after seeing galatea and jean use their yoki and mental strength to control the awakening process.

No one is able to see or stop the quick sword (like Dauf, Ophelia, and Rafaela/Destroyer image thing), except Teresa (against irene), Clare (in her quick sword training with irene), and Rigardo (against clare).

excluding rigardo, the "Faint Smile" ability is what Teresa and Clare share, and they are the only two able to see and match the quick sword.

so this too suggests that Teresa used her "Faint Smile" ability against Irene's quick sword.
[hr]
hopefully another post (making it a double post) is alright, as much time has passed. also, this is a separate thought/content then my last post.


in watching the anime (i know the anime doesn't count, so take this with a "grain of salt") again, and going by also what Irene (i know she's not the most correct source but in this case, i think she is correct) said, i've noticed something interesting:


Teresa's progression of "upping" her fighting:

1. she just uses her Faint Smile ability (due to it being quite enough, as few opponents are powerful enough to fight with no yoki like her. Priscilla was the one known exception).

2. when Teresa actually did fight an opponent whom didn't use yoki (thus making Teresa unable to rely solely on her Faint Smile ability, AT ZERO YOKI USE OF HER OWN), like Priscilla, Teresa then finally used her supreme raw ("human"/Claymore) rank 1 combat skills, experience, and ability. Priscilla was no match for Teresa and it showed, with Irene having to step in to prevent Teresa from possibly beheading Priscilla. Irene then decides that the 4 of them would take on Teresa, much to Priscilla's irritation. the 4 of them, including priscilla, now DO use their yoki. Teresa can go back to using solely her Faint Smile ability. Teresa pwns all 4 of them at once, without any damage.

3. next, Teresa is unable to use her Faint Smile ability again, when Priscilla uses 70-79% yoki. Priscilla's power is so great/immense that Teresa is unable to use her Faint Smile ability, and it shows with Teresa finally finally getting damaged, a cut across her forehead.

4. unable to match 70-79% priscilla, teresa finally releases 10% yoki of her own. now she is able to use her Faint Smile ability again, and has the power/ability to fight superior to priscilla again. teresa knocks priscilla on her bottom.

5. priscilla hits 80% yoki or over. yada yada yada. teresa gets killed.

6. if teresa wasn't killed, she'd simply release more yoki, as she got 90% yoki left "untapped" including her awakening, whereas priscilla has (before she killed teresa) 21-30% yoki left "untapped" including her Awakening which was about to begin..

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

while this doesn't answer/address whether teresa can match irene's quick sword with her supreme raw ("human"/Claymore) combat skills, experience, and abilities, or if teresa needed to use her Faint Smile ability, i still thought that this was quite interesting and it is content related to adressing the topic question as it is content to consider as we try to determine the topic question.

Pointlessness413
January 21, 2010, 11:32 PM
Has anyone thought about basic geometry? If I'm blocking an attack, I have a much smaller radius to cover in order to parry it than you do to swing at me. If I know which direction I need to be blocking in, as soon as you break your sword off for the next swing, I can move my sword to block. I have the time it takes to take your sword away, then move to the other side, then swing again. The difference is that I only need to move my sword to the other side.

Goral
January 22, 2010, 12:31 PM
It's not that easy. Firstly, sword is not a shield and unless you're holding it at the right angle the attacker will penetrate your defenses, for example attacker's sword will bounce/slide and cut someone anyway or if the attacker is stronger it will end up like this:
http://thumbnails11.imagebam.com/4586/59151f45854179.gif (http://www.imagebam.com/image/59151f45854179)
You also have to take into account that the attacker can change the angle of the attack at the last moment (and because it would be last moment and because you would be slower you wouldn't have time to react). So if you try to parry the attack too soon or too late you lose anyway. If Teresa could win against Priscilla only thanks to PYS and skill but she would be significantly weaker ONE mistake would cost her a life (and I'm not talking about a mistake of showing your back to the enemy which she did by shutting her youki off). Notice that it would still only allow Teresa only to defend herself but what about attacking? If Priscilla was faster the moment Teresa tried to attack her she would be injured but we haven't seen that. Also Priscilla shouldn't be injured if she was faster and it was that much easier to parry than to attack.
What's more, muscles that are responsible for parrying are weaker and slower than the onces used to attack (try to move your arm close to you sideways and then try to make jabs/swings, you will see that the latter movements are faster).

The problem here is that you need to know at what angle you need to hold your sword and PYS can't help you with that. I would like you to read my earlier post in this thread (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1581464&postcount=9) and reply to it because I don't want to repeat myself for a hundredth time. In short, while PYS can approximate where does the youki flow (and that way discern the attack) it can't help you to hold a sword in a right way and if the attack is more random you will end up injured anyway. That's one of the reasons why Clare was injured by Ophelia (http://www.imagebam.com/image/bb7b7846040054/), although Teresa wasn't injured even by random attacks that Priscilla used (http://www.imagebam.com/image/aa940c46040226/) (because she was faster and stronger). I've also written that earlier. (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1583826&postcount=12)

gernot
January 25, 2010, 01:11 PM
I think anyone who's ever done any martial arts will confirm that attacking is much easier than defending... Simply because the body of the opponent that you want to hit as well as his guard are much slower than the attacks you are trying to block or evade. In an extreme case, think of the difference of firing a gun at a moving target versus dodging a bullet...

HegemonKhan
January 25, 2010, 07:03 PM
like gernot said:

attacking is ALWAYS faster then defending as there is ALWAYS reaction time.

the secret when you're on defense is to attack/strike/move FIRST, putting the "attacker" on defense (make him have to react, which is slower)

for example:

if you're in arm's reach, and the other person has a gun:

if you move first (and do it fast enough/are trained well), your hand will get to the gun and move it out away from your head, before he can pull the trigger.

despite the bullet being faster then your arm (and head. you wanna move your head away from the gun too obviously) movement, the problem is, that he has to pull the trigger, and since you've attacked/struck/moved first, he is REACTING which means his pulling of the trigger is delayed enough that you can move the gun before it fires. (but this takes much training).

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

of course, actual combat is even more complicated then this, as experienced fighters/warriors know that reaction time makes them slower.


the attacker, while his attack is faster, is put off-balance, in a vulnerable position, or has to recover/recoil from his attack. While the defender is slower due to reaction time, he's still fast enough to block, guard, parry, dodge, or etc the attack and ALSO counter attack, which now the attacker can't respond to because he is in an even longer reaction time due to having attacked.


it gets really complicated. Fighting actually has a lot of knowledge and science to it, though natural ability and training are of course just as important too. "Stupid" people can certainly get into a fight, but they won't be alive afterwards. Fighting and surviving isn't for "stupid" people. Fighting requires as much knowledge/intelligence as any academic science field. In fact, fighting/combat IS PHYSICS, ENGINEERING too with leverage and balance/ceneter of gravity and etc, AND BIOLOGY/ANATOMY with using the body and its weak points (joints and nervous system and etc) or with knowing that stressed/damaged bone/muscle will OVER-repair giving extra layers of bone/muscle, thus increasing it, allowing for a person to have twice as big knuckles on their fists or bones on their feet/shins allowing them to punch or kick stuff without injury which would injure the normal person with the normal layers/amount of bone/muscle or bigger/bulkier muscles (which weight lifters well know about as well as martial artists).

there's also distance of bodies from each other and strike range distance of the fighters, and styles of fighting (linier vs circular or crouched/ground/rolling vs standing vs jumping or hands/arms vs feet/legs or striking vs grappling or speed vs power are just some examples of different styles) and/or angle of strikes/attacks. also, like briefly mentioned, balance and center of gravity is extremely important as well. being able to do combos or sequences of movements, positionings, or attacks. etc etc etc

lastly, there's the greatest weapon of combat/fighting (and war itself):

DECEPTION

probably most of you are familar with the "drunken" style of fighting. pretending to be drunk and moving in a drunk like manner to make it impossible for the opponent to know what you'll do next. feints or tricks. baiting an opening. pretending to retreat, back up, or be scared. etc.. DECEPTION is the most feared and deadly weapon of all.

Reenie
January 29, 2010, 12:32 PM
It's not that hard for Teresa to stop Irene's Flash sword with a slower arm speed, though foresight was probably not her only advantage. Perhaps her overall body speed was faster (if Irene's released arm was the only part that could challenge Teresa in speed, it's almost certain Teresa was faster everywhere else); almost certainly her arm strength was far more powerful, and by packing more weight into each blow she was slowing down the speed of Irene's sword. Perhaps Teresa was more agile and had better swordsmanship sense, and thereby could trap Irene's sword, limiting the paths it could escape to. It's really not that hard to seal the speed of an opponent's sword especially if one has better body speed, strength, agility, and foresight. You see it in kendo alot, two people pressed together at close body range, swords locked together.

The point is not whether Teresa had faster ARM SPEED or not - she may very well have been faster in ARM MOVEMENT than Irene - but that she has fought several times with Irene, and shown that she could stop Irene's Quick Sword with a slower ARM SPEED. Which was why Irene surmised that Teresa may be slightly inferior to #2-4 compared to their areas of specialty (that opens up the possibility that Teresa was better than any single of them in two out of three specialties - it's not a necessary condition based off what Irene said but quite possible). Again, if Teresa had shown that she had equal or superior ARM SPEED in her past exchanges with Irene, then Irene's statement would be meaningless. And I think a #2 who prided herself on the speed of the sword could evaluate the speed of what Teresa's sword showed, even if that wasn't Teresa's true sword speed. So it is possible to overcome the Quick Sword with a slower ARM SPEED by a combination of various other factors, whether it's a combination of body speed, arm strength, foresight, agility, sword sense, or maybe Teresa's sword had superglue on it lol.

Thus rendering the whole argument that Teresa had to be faster pretty pointless. It doesn't distinguish much between different types of speed (leg speed and footwork is particularly important in kendo), and it doesn't really take into account that Teresa's other attributes may slow down Irene's sword from its maximum speed.

kaliayev
January 29, 2010, 09:38 PM
Reaction times of the defender? We all know that someone using PYS isn't engaged in a conventional fight, and, in most instances of fighting against youki based opponents, reaction time is not an issue for such a person. During the Slashers arc, there were occasions when the ab couldn't even touch Clare, despite his best efforts. You should be challenging the reaction time of the attacker when it comes to PYS. Provided the youki based attacker isn't infinitely beyond the reach of the defender who uses PYS, the attacker is the one at a disadvantage.


Sigh, I don't know why hegemon revived this discussion when makaveli did such a good job of killing it. Those who believe the PYS was more than enough to counter Irene's QS still believe so, and those opposed to that argument still are. Since the challenge is directed toward a fairly straightforward scene in the manga, the only recourse for those opposed is to simply write and challenge Yagi for an explanation. Until then, let this thread die again.

White Silver King
August 30, 2010, 04:41 PM
I think the answer is quite simple. She's faster than Irene. As seen, despite what others have said, she's not just the greatest sensor of all time but she's stronger, faster, more agile and has more stamina than everyone else. As seen in her fight she is faster and more agile than Noel, stronger than Sophia, has more stamina than Priscilla (un-awakened) so it makes sense she could be faster than Irene too. People forget that Teresa only has to release 10% of her Yoki because she has SO much of it. All that Yoki makes her strong, even when she's not releasing it.

HegemonKhan
August 30, 2010, 04:59 PM
Sophia, Noel, and Ophelia could NOT even see Irene's sword when she does the Quick Sword.

Teresa (debate over if she's using her PYS or not though), Clare (WOW! Unless she too is using the PYS, lol), and maybe Priscilla WERE ABLE TO SEE Irene's sword while she did the Quick Sword.

Priscilla directly (and CORRECTLY) told us:

~"Am I slowing down? No! Teresa is getting faster then me!" (and yet Teresa hasn't released any yoki.... hmmm... this is interesting.... grins)

Irene WRONGLY tells us:

~"Our individual skills are superior to Teresa's...."

WRONG, Irene! All 4 of you (Irene, Sophia, Noel, and Priscilla) couldn't even scratch her, while releasing 30% or 50% yoki, while she wasn't releasing any yoki, while going at her at the same time, in a 4v1. And, despite not even being scratched by all 4 of you, Teresa WAS BESTING each of you at your individual skills! Irene thinking that their individual skills were superior to Teresa's = FAIL!

---------------------------------------------------------------

How could Teresa stop the Flash Sword?

*1. Teresa's PYS vs "normally" being able to see it with her own eyes
2. Teresa's (normal) sword swing is simply even faster then Irene's Quick Sword's sword swing.
3. both #1 and #2 together.

*If people think that Teresa still wasn't able to use her PYS to sense Priscilla's yoki after she-Teresa released 10% yoki, then by default they believe that Teresa was seeing with her eyes Orcish Near-Awakened Priscilla's FAST-WHIP-LIKE sword swings with her extendable arm. And, this could very well be at an even faster speed then the Quick Sword, which would mean that you'd believe that Teresa could actually see the Quick Sword with her own eyes, and not even need her PYS

*If people think that after Teresa released her 10% yoki, that she was then able to use her PYS to sense Priscilla's yoki again, then it is undetermined whether Teresa could see the Quick Sword with her own eyes without using the PYS to "see" the Quick Sword.

metalia
September 04, 2010, 06:55 AM
Well, despite her natural reflexes and battle experience, also with her youki-sensing ability, I'm sure Teresa was actualy faster, no: much faster, than Irene. This quickness wasn't just because she actualy could move her arm faster, but also because she could anticipate every movement of the enemy.

This is so true, that when blocking the multiple instant hits of the quicksword and being atacked by priscila at the same time, Teresa EVEN cut irene down. I think that is being ridiculously fast.

If you don't remember, you can check the fight at 9:45 in here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdjM509MyHc&feature=related

HegemonKhan
December 20, 2011, 11:48 PM
Does Teresa have the PYSA?

what does everyone think?

There's no direct showing of her having-using the PYSA, it's only mentioned via the text, through only Irene (I think).

The only knowledge we have of the PYSA, is through Clare's own real-actual-existing PYSA...

Irene is dead wrong about their skills being superior to Teresa as she bests each of them at their skills.

Irene also wrongly assumes "Faint Smile" to refer to the PYSA "of Teresa's", when actually it refers to Teresa's supremacy of power, in never needing to YR, hence her face never distorts, hence why Teresa always has the "Faint Smile" upon her lips, as Orsay correctly informs us.

So... does Teresa truly have the PYSA, or did Irene mistakenly make this "PYSA" up about Teresa? Did Clare learn an Ability that never actually existed... ???

---------------------

here's more details in regards to the PYSA:

http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showthread.php/74081-Most-Preferable-Claymore-Technique?p=2706645&viewfull=1#post2706645

.

wickedsmile
December 21, 2011, 01:37 AM
The ability to predetermine someone's thoughts or actions is difficult to portray through any medium. I don't think Yagi could do it in a fighting scene. You would have to show a progression of actions and reactions leading to such a conclusion.

Irene states that Teresa can sense the flow of youki as it moves within a warrior's body. The flow of you youki telegraphs the warrior's actions. Therefore, Teresa already knows her opponent's moves before her foe has already initiated the movement It would seem a distinct advantage to have such an ability. She obviously has the skills to counter the moves as well. Having fore knowledge and having the ability to quickly counter are probably the marquee skills of Teresa of the Faint Smile.

SaphG1
December 21, 2011, 11:11 AM
If Yagi states she has it then regardless of speculation she does until he says otherwise. That's the nice part about being the author, what you say is law in your series, no matter how farfetched it could possibly be.

I personally agree with Wicked here. Its a hard thing to portray short of taking entire cells to draw out some sort of image of Yoki flowing through a body which would probably seem a little Naruto-esqe. I don't agree that Irene's assessment was entirely wrong either(speculation not author fact) as stated above preemptive Yoki reading against a Claymore is like being able to see ahead into the future. Teresa had a high spec well rounded body to match a perfect combat skill. Even if you have one skill fractionally better then Teresa's, she'll still destroy you.

If you know whats coming and when you cause the most efficient option with the least excess movement in order to counter your enemy. Teresa never really wasted energy, she was always extremely efficient in combat which goes towards showing that she could read her opponents.

HegemonKhan
December 21, 2011, 06:21 PM
The ability to predetermine someone's thoughts or actions is difficult to portray through any medium. I don't think Yagi could do it in a fighting scene. You would have to show a progression of actions and reactions leading to such a conclusion.

Irene states that Teresa can sense the flow of youki as it moves within a warrior's body. The flow of you youki telegraphs the warrior's actions. Therefore, Teresa already knows her opponent's moves before her foe has already initiated the movement It would seem a distinct advantage to have such an ability. She obviously has the skills to counter the moves as well. Having fore knowledge and having the ability to quickly counter are probably the marquee skills of Teresa of the Faint Smile.


If Yagi states she has it then regardless of speculation she does until he says otherwise. That's the nice part about being the author, what you say is law in your series, no matter how farfetched it could possibly be.

I personally agree with Wicked here. Its a hard thing to portray short of taking entire cells to draw out some sort of image of Yoki flowing through a body which would probably seem a little Naruto-esqe. I don't agree that Irene's assessment was entirely wrong either(speculation not author fact) as stated above preemptive Yoki reading against a Claymore is like being able to see ahead into the future. Teresa had a high spec well rounded body to match a perfect combat skill. Even if you have one skill fractionally better then Teresa's, she'll still destroy you.

If you know whats coming and when you cause the most efficient option with the least excess movement in order to counter your enemy. Teresa never really wasted energy, she was always extremely efficient in combat which goes towards showing that she could read her opponents.

1. Yagi had no problem displaying Clare's own PYSA usage within fighting scenes (the Lido "Spiderman" male AB Battle and all the other battles where Clare is seemingly injured and/or fatally, but actually not, as none of her vitals were hit nor any real damage done to her despite the attacks going through her body).

2. Irene is embarrassingly wrong about many things in this section (Teresa arc-chapters). Not a wise source for us readers to be using obviously, and she's the ONLY source (I think) of Teresa "supposedly" having this so called "PYSA". Also, if Teresa had the PYSA, then how would it be possible for the PYSA to not be able to read Priscilla? I thought the PYSA was the perfect skill for opponents who YR, the more the YR the more advantage to the PYSA user? This contradiction only supports Teresa actually NOT having the PYSA. Clare does have a real-actual-existing PYSA. But, does Teresa?

There's only two thing that defines the PYSA from other Yoki Sensing Abilities, and they are the abilities to "move-react before the attack comes" and to "have such precision that one may allow-have an attack just barely miss her vital organs". And both of these two things are only known to us, thanks to Clare's real-actual-existing PYSA usage. We know absolutely nothing about the PYSA from Teresa. Also, Clare is the ONLY one seen able to do these two abilities, not Teresa not Galatea not Miata not anyone else, SOLELY-ONLY our Clare alone!

Quick summary about Irene being embarrassingly wrong, and that Teresa is pwning everyone not because of her "supposed PYSA", but rather because of her Supremacy of Power:

Irene says that each of their individual skills are superior to Teresa. WRONG! Really, Muscular Sophia is stronger than Teresa? HAHA, that's funny Irene! Irene is such an incorrect fool, as immediately after Irene makes this claim, Teresa disproves Irene as being dead wrong!

No YR and No PYSA Teresa BESTS No YR Priscilla (as Teresa couldn't sense Priscilla, she can't be using "her PYSA"), in fact Priscilla gives us the correct explanation: "Am I getting slower?, no... Teresa is getting FASTER!". But, how can Teresa be getting faster, while still not YR'ing? Simple, NO YR Teresa was taking it easy on Priscilla, and once Priscilla shown herself more capable than all other Claymores, Teresa no longer took it easy on Priscilla, which was far too much for Priscilla, Teresa was too powerful, too fast for poor Priscilla. Also, if 10% YR Teresa continued to be unable to read 70%+ YR Orcish Priscilla, then that means no PYSA, which means Teresa was pwning everyone due to her Supremacy of Power, not merely due to some godly "PYSA". And, again even with the PYSA, Teresa still needs the actual physical abilities, the actual Power, to react, otherwise, she'd be just like PYSA Clare. So, even if Teresa had and was using the PYSA, it was herself, her own Supremacy of Power, her physical abilities that enabled her to BEST Irene of the Quick Sword in speed, attack quickness, and strength, to BEST Muscular Sophia in Strength, to BEST Noel in speed agility and attack quickness, to BEST Priscilla in speed, attack quickness, and strength, and to BEST 70% YR Orcish Priscilla in speed, attack quickness, and strength. So much for Irene, the fool.

3. If Teresa had the PYSA, then why didn't she notice all the attacks in advance, why was Teresa caught off-guard by all the attacks of YR'ing Irene+Priscilla+Sophia+Noel ??? Why would a PYSA Teresa need Clare's screaming to notify her of attacks coming from behind her? Why was Teresa caught in such dire-dangerous positions within the battle with the 4 of them, only surviving due to her uber agility, speed, and strength ??? Does she have the PYSA or not ???

4. Off-topic, about Clare....

How could Human Child Clare warn Teresa before "Teresa's PYSA" could ??? How could Human Child Clare even follow the battle, let alone see and able to shout a warning to Teresa in enough time for Teresa to use it! How could Human Child Clare truly Sense the Yoki itself and recognize its signature from Priscilla? Clare is truly a mystery, and therefore all of her powers and abilities could indeed be her own, and not merely Teresa's... as many think.

wickedsmile
December 22, 2011, 02:45 AM
I think Irene realizes that she has vastly underestimated/misread Teresa. She states as much when she lay bleeding and motionless on a bridge, realizing that Teresa has fought them without utilizing any of her Yoma power. We don't know for certain, as the text has not been explicit in the matter. However, it's possible that Teresa can predict her foes opponents through their flow of youki. In addition, as HK hypothesizes, she may very well be inherently stronger, faster, smarter and more skilled than the other warriors.

We're going somewhat into the mechanics of a Claymore but we don't know if it's the Yoma or the human part that provides a warrior's unique ability. If the former, then it stands to reason that Clare's ability to read youki flow comes from Teresa's flesh.

Khorr
December 22, 2011, 04:22 PM
While the topic is hard to prove, I think Teresa does have some sort of PSYA. Now is it as useful as people make it out to be, maybe not. I think we may be overestimating the usefulness. As we seen from Clare, Clare needs to focus on a target to use it and its not something that's 360deg and always active. That would make things much harder when fighting multiple opponents.

This line by Teresa herself is proof enough for me though.

(Teresa fighting YR Priscilla)
"There's so much yoma power coming from every part of her body, I can't read the flow." ~ Teresa (Chapter 22, Page 26ish)

Why would she be bothering to read "the flow" if she wasn't using some sort of PYSA.?

spit
January 01, 2012, 12:42 PM
im fuzzy on details now but i was quite sure she had PYSA i think she has it

HegemonKhan
January 02, 2012, 04:00 AM
The problem I try to point out is:

We ONLY have Irene saying Teresa has this "PYSA". We've never seen Teresa using the PYSA, like we've seen of-with Clare using the PYSA.

So, it comes down to:

Is Irene correct, that Teresa has the PYSA, or is she incorrect, using this "PYSA", as an explanation of how Teresa is able to pwn everyone, due to not realizing or maybe due to being in denial (LOL) that it's simply due to Teresa being that powerful, as to why-how she is able to pwn everyone.

--------------

The problem with Irene, and only Irene, as the source....

Irene isn't that accurate... seriously, Muscular Sophia being the strongest of all of them? That's totally WRONG by Irene. So, what else has Irene said that is WRONG, as well as what has she said that is correct-right, eh?

Irene's a horrible source, as you've got to really analyze (with lots of contextual help) as to whether what she says is accurate/correct or inaccurate/in-correct...

spit
January 03, 2012, 05:35 PM
hm i think Irene not being 'reliable' is too much of a speculation maybe not but i think so

1 if you have PYSA it is rather clear you still need TOP abilities - reaction, speed, physical, everything

someone like Teresa who 100% can utilise PYSA at full potential - it must help a lot but even without that help i think she would be pwning like yesterday... as far as i know she wasnt using PYSA on Priscilla + is PYSA omnidirectional? can you use it against more enemies at once?

in short: it doesnt really matter she is a monster anyway

2 she using PYSA should be a REASON that Clare has it too!! it was that very AWESOME moment next episode after Teresa died, that anime showed us Clare fighting two normal yomas in her badassery and the great feeling i had that time was mainly due to realizing she is Teresa's 'apprentice'
i think if Teresa didnt have PYSA after all it would be lame, unfitting and just dishonesting the baseground of the whole claymore universe

HegemonKhan
January 04, 2012, 01:10 AM
Irene's "unreliable-ness" comes from the Teresa vs Priscilla debate, in analyzing their battle to the "Nth Degree", lol. We, the Teresa Supporters, have analyzed Irene as being very confused and incorrect, hypocritical and etc etc etc, confusing the hell out of poor Sophia, Noel, and us the readers, lol. Of course, the Priscilla supporters, see it very differently, with Irene *NOT* being "unreliable" (with Irene being reliable).

so, if you're interested in this stuff-debate on Irene, feel free to read through the posts in the Teresa vs Priscilla Thread, lol.

If you can't find the thread (and/or specific posts), let me know, and/or if you want my notes-posts on it-Irene, let me know too, and I can provide what you need.

nvm, I'll provide the link at the bottom of this post :D

------------------

the significance of whether Teresa has the PYSA or not, actually deals with how powerful Teresa is or isn't. As not everyone thinks Teresa is actually a "Monster", they think Teresa was only as good as she was, due to her PYSA, they don't feel that she had godly physical abilities, they feel she had the same abilities as other rank 1 Claymores, and it was only due to her PYSA that pushed her above and beyond other rank 1 Claymores (and the AO Rosemary). This thus ties in with whether Teresa is more powerful than Priscilla or not. As if Teresa was only good due to her PYSA, then Priscilla is superior to Teresa. Or, Teresa has the godly physical abilities + her PYSA, or my new radical proposal that Teresa doesn't have the PYSA, hehe, then it is Teresa who is superior to Priscilla.

-------------------

We do have this Claymore sub-forum, for (most of) all the character stuff related threads (feel free to post !!):

Organization's Forbidden Library (http://mangahelpers.com/forum/forumdisplay.php/977-Organization-s-Forbidden-Library)

and within this sub-forum, is the Teresa vs Priscilla thread (feel free to post !!):

Teresa vs Priscilla - Who is stronger (http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showthread.php/57704-Teresa-vs.-Priscilla-Who-is-stronger)

.

spit
January 04, 2012, 12:09 PM
you dont have to go to such lenghts for me, as to provide links.. but thx

as always we can debate over this, but in this case i will just say: teresa has it - HK, dont you think that if she didnt have it, it would be kinda counterproductive? why would Clare have PYSA then?
+ that would mean Teresa would be truly overpowered too - #1 or not, cutting down AWAKENED former #1!!! is something of disastrous proportions - that is not something ordinary #1 can do - PRROF? AO are former #1 if nonawakened #1 can deal wit awakened #1 that shows some power gap... if Teresa had this without pysa that would be too much it is possible but as im saying

my biggest reason in believing is Care i dont believe in coincidences.. also i believe it is implied enough Clare has her powers from Teresa - like when Miria saw her as someone of great strength - her powers definitely come from Teresa (who else anyway she doesnt have yoma in herself)
+ why would Irene think Teresa has PYSA if she didnt have it? where would she heared about it?

HegemonKhan
January 04, 2012, 12:36 PM
I also view that Clare's powers are her own, and not due to Teresa's flesh. Clare as a Human Child, was already a MONSTER, and quite inhuman..

1. Indestructable Body
2. Uber Perception (she saw right through all of Teresa's Defenses, seeing the real-hidden Teresa, the Teresa yearning to be "Teresa the Person-Human", not "Teresa the Goddess", not "Teresa the MONSTER", not Teresa of the Faint Smile)
3. She could follow the battle, despite the speed of the "rank 1 vs ranks 1-4" Claymores (and the Orcish Priscilla too), and even shout a warning to Teresa soon enough for Teresa to act upon it, beating out Teresa's own PYSA (assuming she has it, which I don't now, hehe).
4. She survived on her own for X amount of time, looking for a BC while holding Teresa's head, hehe.
5. She survived being the 2nd NY's "pet-toy".
6. Strangely, she's been targetted by two NYs, and especially with the 2nd NY, it didn't eat her, and using this, in looking at the 1st NY... it too might not have had interests in-with eating her when it pounced on her, but rather some other more disturbing interest... eww... as while the 2nd NY physically abused her, we can't rule out it sexually abusing her too, as often sexual abuse goes along with physical abuse. Also, during the bandits scene, Clare takes a step back in fear, as she knows what the bandits want and what Teresa is saying to them, lol.
7. Clare pretends to sleep, fooling Teresa, and ends up saving Teresa from getting raped by Rig, by whacking him with that tree branch on his head, to Teresa's shock-surprise, hard enough that blood runs down his face, hehe.
8. Clare displayed inhuman endurance-stamina, able to keep up with Teresa, which was shocking, as even an adult human in the best fitness, could not do so .... yet Clare was, and she was only a child...
9. Human Clare showed ZERO fear at the 1st NY eating her family, nor in it pouncing upon her... instead she was merely asking, ~"Neesan, why?"
10. Clare was one of those special rare "Humans" who could actually Sense the Yoki itself, and she was but a child as well.
11. She fearlessly hugged Teresa
12. She "happens" to have the name Clare, the name of one of the Goddesses of Love, along with Claymore Teresa, also having the other name of the other Goddess of Love.
13. etc...

I seriously am suspicious about Clare, whether she was truly human as a child... hehe.

that also then gets into whether Rubel saw her special-ness... as he likely saw the same special-ness in Priscilla... ordering the "Hit" upon Priscilla's family by the NY, and then the same "Hits" upon Clare's family, and even possibly with the 2nd NY's "abduction" of her as well. As, isn't it suspicious that "magically coincidentally" an unknown Claymore appears, saving Clare from the 1st NY ??? That of all the BCs, Clare could find, it was Rubel, whom she "found". Heck, maybe it's even possible that Orsay saw Clare's potential as well, and instead of wanting to kill Clare, he too was going to make Clare into his own Claymore, as Rubel had actually done himself within the actual story. I think the Island, has its own ancient secrets... and that is why the Org has come to the Island... as it has "special humans" who make great Claymores-Awakeneds... *grins*

Alisia
January 04, 2012, 02:26 PM
I' think that Teresa and Claire have the PYSA. This ability, so beauty and terrible at the same time, is the only way that Claire have to defeat priscilla.

Priscilla is owerpowered, much more than the other AO in the manga. Who will kill her? How?

Naturally, with this ability. PYSA

No one at this time can destroy priscilla. Becouse at this time, no one have this special ability that has made to the necessity of the destroy all the AO. A part from claire

This is the reason because yagi have created a monster like priscilla. Because only Clare can defeat her. More is high the power of the enemy, and more is decisive the PYSA.

Priscilla would never have killed Teresa, even after her awakened . Because Teresa was too strong and had this ability: PYSA

spit
January 04, 2012, 03:29 PM
fuh...

well if you say you believe Clare doesnt have her powers from Teresa than. Teresa having PYSA gets way more uncertain yeah

Nevertheless, i can provide counter argument for every point (just to name few most difficult):

1 stamina/no fear/etc: can be explained by Clares personality(which in fact really can explain this) - no fear can be result of a shock or something and stamina just consequence of being stubborn and tough-minded
with strong mind you can overcome limits...

2 sensing yoki: dunno when this happened but it was mentioned that humans DO sense yoki even if it is just as an uneasiness and only in presents of powerful being

3 following the battle: i dont think occasional shouting to warn Teresa immediately means she can percieve battle beyond human level, i dont think teresa reacted on Clares shouting any time during the fight - if it happened it would be absolutely ridiculous - claymores have their powers from yoma flesh (as far as we know) not because of their potential they had while being human

my point is - simplest explanation is the most probable (occam's razor) and i dont think your arguments make the situation any simpler - instead, you now require:

- clare having her powers not from Teresa = which breaks great symmetry/metaphor or whatever it was
- clare having her powers coincidentally the same as one that others FALSELY BELIEVE teresa has - considering how this manga sticks to reality this is more than unprobable
furthermore
- clare being 'superhuman' is quite a lot to say too, i agree you can set the theory somehow to not oppose manga, but its far-fetched

+ she is not that strong as a claymore herself, that kinda opposes your theory, if she could sense yoki as a human or even have PYSA then, then after becoming claymore she should be breaking records of the organization
+
i think if at least on of those were true (teresa = no PYSA or clare = superhuman) yagi would give us a better hints maybe im just too stubborn and close-minded to more revolutionary theories but still i think i have some solid ground

---------- Post added at 09:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:05 PM ----------



Priscilla is owerpowered, much more than the other AO in the manga. Who will kill her? How?


powers in this manga truly avoid pursuing linear curve
--- at first we get to know that powergaps in single digits are much greater that one would expect, i very like this idea, it shows how the difference between powerful warriors is based on their true power that comes from their original potential and ability, the rest , the fodder is just trying to master their techniques so the differences are little
--- then there is #1 unfortunately claymore never states any absolute value of power, everything is so relative we can argue forever, main point remains that #1 is incredibly powerful - enough to overweight the whole power of the organization!!
in this terms im also saying that Miria is close to average #1 strenght (she was bit worse than Hysteria (which is among 8 most powerful ones) so that agrees)
--- then the power boost that awakening gives: well it surely must be great, but i am not really sure, for claymore to destroy the same-rank-awakened means either 'plothole' (which i dont wanna believe is the case) or true and BIG difference in strength or that awakening itself is not such a deal - but we have plenty of reason to believe it is a great deal
personally i believe it gives incredible boost
--- then there is priscilla

i am chaotically between thinking she IS overpowered and that she IS NOT this manga has several big power gaps and we have no reason to believe there arent few more - why couldnt there be someone noone could kill?
i dont think anyone could kill awakened Teresa either
AND
i just reread that part of manga and Rubel clearly indicates/says that Priscilla had her whole potential awoken when she awakened - so if we take into consideration her potential of being #1 that can surpas Teresa (one of the 8 most powerful) she really might get this powerful without it being unbelievable or stupid

the fact that none can kill her doesnt mean anything + you just need to realise that any awakened #1 is unkillable she just went a little( a little too much?) further

well to be honest i didnt even persuade myself...

about PYSA being only thing that can kill her - i think storng enough oponent has always a chance, PYSA would help sure, for Clare to kill Priscilla it would be nice revenge but i dont want such an ending
1 it would look like everything is just some made-up story
2 with Priscilla being killed by something else or by group of someone - that would result in something more interesting

HegemonKhan
January 04, 2012, 06:18 PM
it is a far-fetched idea of mine, quite against the "cannon" thinking, and it would be too much effort to try to defend, laughs. So, I'll just leave it as one of my many crazy wild theories-ideas :D

--------------------

Personally, I love Priscilla's Reigning Supremacy !!!!

finally an ALL-POWERFUL villain-antagonist, who IS all-powerful, who pwns the hero... there's no "lame magical power up for the hero to just suddenly pwn and triumph", no our Clare got "curb-stomped" pwned by Priscilla, as she should be !!! I love it, a manga that follows the reality that Priscilla is truly the "beast" that she is !!! :D If, you're going to have an all-powerful villain, then KEEP that villain ALL-POWERFUL !!! Priscilla pwned the AOs, as she should, Priscilla pwned our "hero" Clare, as she should, finally a non-lame manga or story, hehe. Thank you Yagi !!!

if you want a hero who magically goes from being weak and getting pwned, to getting a magical power up and pwning the villain, triumphant happily ever after... there's Bleach... or DBZ or nearly almost all mangas and/or comics, stories... etc...

No, our Clare has struggling for everything she has gained... and when she finally confronted the villain, Priscilla, she got pwned as she was suppose to be, because as great strides as she made with reason with hard work and/or struggle, it's still a far cry from our MASSIVELY powerful Priscilla. Yeah, a story-plot as it should be told !!!

A story that actually is CONSISTANT with characters' power levels !!! There's no way Clare could have become as powerful as Teresa-Priscilla, no she still has a very very long ways to go... if she even survives... with her lower body gone and dying, just prior to the Destroyer (Destroyer-Teresa) taking her "in", hehe :D

Clare better NOT emerge with a "magical power up" .... Oh will I be mad, as that would be so LAME... and non-Claymore, non-Yagi !!!! It would be far to "Bleach-Ichigo" like for me... V.V

spit
January 05, 2012, 06:20 AM
Personally, I love Priscilla's Reigning Supremacy !!!!

finally an ALL-POWERFUL villain-antagonist, who IS all-powerful, who pwns the hero... there's no "lame magical power up for the hero to just suddenly pwn and triumph", no our Clare got "curb-stomped" pwned by Priscilla, as she should be !!! I love it, a manga that follows the reality that Priscilla is truly the "beast" that she is !!! :D If, you're going to have an all-powerful villain, then KEEP that villain ALL-POWERFUL !!! Priscilla pwned the AOs, as she should, Priscilla pwned our "hero" Clare, as she should, finally a non-lame manga or story, hehe. Thank you Yagi !!!
agree

---------- Post added at 12:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:18 PM ----------



A story that actually is CONSISTANT with characters' power levels !!! There's no way Clare could have become as powerful as Teresa-Priscilla, no she still has a very very long ways to go... if she even survives... with her lower body gone and dying, just prior to the Destroyer (Destroyer-Teresa) taking her "in", hehe :D
agree

i think that even if clare uses her full potential+emotions/will for revenge+help of techniqes from others this alone should be NOTHING compared to Priscilla
Priscilla>>>normal AO normal AO=former normal#1

Clare getting on #1 level is impressive feat on itself and i think she should stop somewhere like that - average #1 strength anything more would be more and more 'pushed' and felt artificial

true, every claymore started as a human and as a being with some potential and there is no reason why Clare couldnt have had this potential greater than someone else, + to have greatest potential of all is nothing weird for protagonist but in claymore that wouldnt feel right
---------- Post added at 12:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:19 PM ----------


Clare better NOT emerge with a "magical power up" .... Oh will I be mad, as that would be so LAME... and non-Claymore, non-Yagi !!!! It would be far to "Bleach-Ichigo" like for me... V.V
completely agree
in fact her partial awakening can be viewed as this a little bit, it comes when needed, saves the day etc.. but

im so eager to find out how wil temporary awakenings play out will that be possible? how much of an power boost will they provide? etc
if Miria awakens in chp123 i will be disappointed by 'cheap' story - it really looks like it is set up that way right now, but the fact is i WANNA see it happen

number12michael
February 13, 2012, 08:43 AM
1. Yagi had no problem displaying Clare's own PYSA usage within fighting scenes (the Lido "Spiderman" male AB Battle and all the other battles where Clare is seemingly injured and/or fatally, but actually not, as none of her vitals were hit nor any real damage done to her despite the attacks going through her body).

2. Irene is embarrassingly wrong about many things in this section (Teresa arc-chapters). Not a wise source for us readers to be using obviously, and she's the ONLY source (I think) of Teresa "supposedly" having this so called "PYSA". Also, if Teresa had the PYSA, then how would it be possible for the PYSA to not be able to read Priscilla? I thought the PYSA was the perfect skill for opponents who YR, the more the YR the more advantage to the PYSA user? This contradiction only supports Teresa actually NOT having the PYSA. Clare does have a real-actual-existing PYSA. But, does Teresa?

There's only two thing that defines the PYSA from other Yoki Sensing Abilities, and they are the abilities to "move-react before the attack comes" and to "have such precision that one may allow-have an attack just barely miss her vital organs". And both of these two things are only known to us, thanks to Clare's real-actual-existing PYSA usage. We know absolutely nothing about the PYSA from Teresa. Also, Clare is the ONLY one seen able to do these two abilities, not Teresa not Galatea not Miata not anyone else, SOLELY-ONLY our Clare alone!

Quick summary about Irene being embarrassingly wrong, and that Teresa is pwning everyone not because of her "supposed PYSA", but rather because of her Supremacy of Power:

Irene says that each of their individual skills are superior to Teresa. WRONG! Really, Muscular Sophia is stronger than Teresa? HAHA, that's funny Irene! Irene is such an incorrect fool, as immediately after Irene makes this claim, Teresa disproves Irene as being dead wrong!

No YR and No PYSA Teresa BESTS No YR Priscilla (as Teresa couldn't sense Priscilla, she can't be using "her PYSA"), in fact Priscilla gives us the correct explanation: "Am I getting slower?, no... Teresa is getting FASTER!". But, how can Teresa be getting faster, while still not YR'ing? Simple, NO YR Teresa was taking it easy on Priscilla, and once Priscilla shown herself more capable than all other Claymores, Teresa no longer took it easy on Priscilla, which was far too much for Priscilla, Teresa was too powerful, too fast for poor Priscilla. Also, if 10% YR Teresa continued to be unable to read 70%+ YR Orcish Priscilla, then that means no PYSA, which means Teresa was pwning everyone due to her Supremacy of Power, not merely due to some godly "PYSA". And, again even with the PYSA, Teresa still needs the actual physical abilities, the actual Power, to react, otherwise, she'd be just like PYSA Clare. So, even if Teresa had and was using the PYSA, it was herself, her own Supremacy of Power, her physical abilities that enabled her to BEST Irene of the Quick Sword in speed, attack quickness, and strength, to BEST Muscular Sophia in Strength, to BEST Noel in speed agility and attack quickness, to BEST Priscilla in speed, attack quickness, and strength, and to BEST 70% YR Orcish Priscilla in speed, attack quickness, and strength. So much for Irene, the fool.

3. If Teresa had the PYSA, then why didn't she notice all the attacks in advance, why was Teresa caught off-guard by all the attacks of YR'ing Irene+Priscilla+Sophia+Noel ??? Why would a PYSA Teresa need Clare's screaming to notify her of attacks coming from behind her? Why was Teresa caught in such dire-dangerous positions within the battle with the 4 of them, only surviving due to her uber agility, speed, and strength ??? Does she have the PYSA or not ???

4. Off-topic, about Clare....

How could Human Child Clare warn Teresa before "Teresa's PYSA" could ??? How could Human Child Clare even follow the battle, let alone see and able to shout a warning to Teresa in enough time for Teresa to use it! How could Human Child Clare truly Sense the Yoki itself and recognize its signature from Priscilla? Clare is truly a mystery, and therefore all of her powers and abilities could indeed be her own, and not merely Teresa's... as many think.

Teresa says that when prissila YR it was so Eminence that she could not read it.....think of it like this when she tryed to eat prissys yoki there was so much of it flowing everyone she could not tell were it was going to go because it was going everywhere...if that makes sense

SpeedyIX
February 15, 2012, 06:24 PM
1. Yagi had no problem displaying Clare's own PYSA usage within fighting scenes (the Lido "Spiderman" male AB Battle and all the other battles where Clare is seemingly injured and/or fatally, but actually not, as none of her vitals were hit nor any real damage done to her despite the attacks going through her body).

Yagi was most likely just showing us how the skill actually works in the hands of an inexperienced warrior such as Clare (we then get a better example of it once she's up against Ophelia).

2. Irene is embarrassingly wrong about many things in this section (Teresa arc-chapters). Not a wise source for us readers to be using obviously, and she's the ONLY source (I think) of Teresa "supposedly" having this so called "PYSA". Also, if Teresa had the PYSA, then how would it be possible for the PYSA to not be able to read Priscilla? I thought the PYSA was the perfect skill for opponents who YR, the more the YR the more advantage to the PYSA user? This contradiction only supports Teresa actually NOT having the PYSA. Clare does have a real-actual-existing PYSA. But, does Teresa?

Teresa said "There's so much yoma power coming from every part of her body, I can't read the flow." In short, part of the original description of PYSA is how yoki flows into crucial parts of the body before they are used, and with so much yoki flowing from every where on your opponent would definitely make it harder to read. Teresa also flat-out states that she has/was using the PYSA skill by saying that.

There's only two thing that defines the PYSA from other Yoki Sensing Abilities, and they are the abilities to "move-react before the attack comes" and to "have such precision that one may allow-have an attack just barely miss her vital organs". And both of these two things are only known to us, thanks to Clare's real-actual-existing PYSA usage. We know absolutely nothing about the PYSA from Teresa. Also, Clare is the ONLY one seen able to do these two abilities, not Teresa not Galatea not Miata not anyone else, SOLELY-ONLY our Clare alone!

It's shown a bit better in the anime episode of Awakening, where Priscilla (at about 10% YR) flies behind Teresa while she's blocking Ilena's QS, Teresa senses Priscilla (the screen kinda freeze-frames in a purple-tint and Teresa does not actually see Priscilla as she's approaching) and turns to barely dodge her blade (Teresa also does this in Chpt.21 Pg16).

Quick summary about Irene being embarrassingly wrong, and that Teresa is pwning everyone not because of her "supposed PYSA", but rather because of her Supremacy of Power:

Irene says that each of their individual skills are superior to Teresa. WRONG! Really, Muscular Sophia is stronger than Teresa? HAHA, that's funny Irene! Irene is such an incorrect fool, as immediately after Irene makes this claim, Teresa disproves Irene as being dead wrong!

No YR and No PYSA Teresa BESTS No YR Priscilla (as Teresa couldn't sense Priscilla, she can't be using "her PYSA"), in fact Priscilla gives us the correct explanation: "Am I getting slower?, no... Teresa is getting FASTER!". But, how can Teresa be getting faster, while still not YR'ing? Simple, NO YR Teresa was taking it easy on Priscilla, and once Priscilla shown herself more capable than all other Claymores, Teresa no longer took it easy on Priscilla, which was far too much for Priscilla, Teresa was too powerful, too fast for poor Priscilla. Also, if 10% YR Teresa continued to be unable to read 70%+ YR Orcish Priscilla, then that means no PYSA, which means Teresa was pwning everyone due to her Supremacy of Power, not merely due to some godly "PYSA". And, again even with the PYSA, Teresa still needs the actual physical abilities, the actual Power, to react, otherwise, she'd be just like PYSA Clare. So, even if Teresa had and was using the PYSA, it was herself, her own Supremacy of Power, her physical abilities that enabled her to BEST Irene of the Quick Sword in speed, attack quickness, and strength, to BEST Muscular Sophia in Strength, to BEST Noel in speed agility and attack quickness, to BEST Priscilla in speed, attack quickness, and strength, and to BEST 70% YR Orcish Priscilla in speed, attack quickness, and strength. So much for Irene, the fool.

3. If Teresa had the PYSA, then why didn't she notice all the attacks in advance, why was Teresa caught off-guard by all the attacks of YR'ing Irene+Priscilla+Sophia+Noel ??? Why would a PYSA Teresa need Clare's screaming to notify her of attacks coming from behind her? Why was Teresa caught in such dire-dangerous positions within the battle with the 4 of them, only surviving due to her uber agility, speed, and strength ??? Does she have the PYSA or not ???

Im doubting Teresa was caught off-guard by any of those attacks, otherwise she'd have gotten hit, like when 70% YR Priscilla stretched her arm, and the death blow... :'(

4. Off-topic, about Clare....

How could Human Child Clare warn Teresa before "Teresa's PYSA" could ??? How could Human Child Clare even follow the battle, let alone see and able to shout a warning to Teresa in enough time for Teresa to use it! How could Human Child Clare truly Sense the Yoki itself and recognize its signature from Priscilla? Clare is truly a mystery, and therefore all of her powers and abilities could indeed be her own, and not merely Teresa's... as many think.



Replies are in blue

I like that you were able to subvert consensus and spark this discussion :P

Goral
July 12, 2012, 01:37 PM
@SaphG1 (http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showthread.php/77200-Claymore-128-Discussion-129-Predictions?p=2951686&viewfull=1#post2951686)

OK, firstly it's not that simple. If it was the case boxers or fencers could defend indefinitely even if they were slower than their opponents. You can also see that while playing "paws". Even despite the fact that the attacker must flip his hands before he attacks (rotate them 180 degrees) he's usually at an advantage because he attacks first. If I sparred with someone slower than me and told him exactly were I would hit in the next 10 blows he would still be hit, because even though he could evade the first blow with my every next move he would have less time to react because of the gap in our speed. (It's like with a rabbit and a turtle. No matter how much of a distance advantage the turtle would have, after enough time he would be outrun by a rabbit assuming they could run indefinitely.)

If someone attacked me and I would be faster, because I would be faster I could dodge and hit him at the same time. So if I could hit at the avg. speed of 20m/s and my opponent could react at the speed of 15 m/s and the distance between me and him would be one meter (1m) I would hit him in about 1/20 of a second so he would have to dodge+block it before I started the move (you can't dodge in 1/20th of a second) but what about the second blow? Sure, he could at the same time try to attack me but it would end at best with a double hit (and Teresa was never hit once she released youki, overall she was hit once). If I was indeed faster I could dodge it and at the same time launch another attack at the speed of 20 m/s and he wouldn't have bonus time then. Even though you would know where I would hit and even WHEN, I would hit you if you reacted too soon, my speed advantage would allow me to adjust my move a bit and the timing would be different and although you would receive this information you wouldn't be fast enough to change your move because of our speed difference.

Also, it's one thing to dodge+parry hits and just parry hits. Especially in sword fighting. Parrying without dodging and exchanging every single move would be impossible if you weren't faster. Somehow Teresa was never hit after she released her youki. And notice that while the time gap (time advantage) would be getting shorter, the distance would be rather constant (assuming fencers wouldn't move and from what we've seen in the room Teresa and Clare were staying at they weren't moving when they were exchanging blows). So the longer the fight would last the worse would Teresa's situation would be.

As for your calculations, you didn't need to divide 1/88.408 when you've chosen such easy numbers, all you had to do was to divide the time by 2 since the distance was 2 times shorter. But that's only if you would be using the equations you've used (http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruch_prostoliniowy). Using the equation when the speed is constant isn't even close to the real thing, even using equations where acceleration is constant wouldn't be accurate (although it would be closer to the truth).

Consider this:

Let's say that once Irene starts her QS the speed of her swings is constant and it's 100 m/s (for easier calculations) and that the distances you chose are accurate, i.e. for Irene it is 2 m and for Teresa 1 m. However, Teresa starts from 0 m/s speed and in her case the equation for constant speed can't be used. So let's use this equation (http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruch_jednostajnie_przyspieszony): s=at^2/2 (s0 is zero and v0 is zero). The time at which they will reach their destination (i.e. when they will clash their swords) is the same.

So we have:

For Irene:
s1 = v*t

For Teresa:
s2 = s = at^2/2

However s1 = 2s2 = 2s so:

2s = v*t
s = at^2/2

=> at^2=v*t
Zero of a function is 0 (which doesn't apply to our case) or v/a. =>
2s=v*(v/a)=v^2/a
a = v^2/2 so in our case (100 m/s)^2/2 = 5 000 m/s^2
That's the acceleration Teresa would have to have in order to reach Irene in time and it's a colossal number but only because of the numbers we've chosen (100 m/s is very close to your 90 m/s). Now, I'm not saying that it means Irene wouldn't be able to reach such acceleration but that Teresa had a harder task since she was starting from zero speed.

But anyway, your numbers don't add up for another reason. Teresa's and Irene's positions were symmetrical and it's not true that Irene's strike had to travel 2 m while Teresa's 1 m. The picture below is self-evident:
http://thumbnails16.imagebam.com/4527/f3b9fc45260632.gif (http://www.imagebam.com/image/f3b9fc45260632)

100MPH=44.704MPS
1/44.704=0.022
This equation is also unnecessary. Since Irene needs 0.022 s to reach Teresa, Teresa has exactly 0.022 s to react. But that's not entirely true because at this time Irene's sword would be 0 m away from Teresa. And BTW, if Irene was swinging her sword with the speed of 90 m/s and Teresa with the speed of 45 m/s in the same time Irene would be making 2/3 of the sum of the distance they would be making. So if they were 1 m apart then Irene would reach about 0,66 m while Teresa about 0,33 m. If that would continue and Irene would be getting closer Teresa would have it harder to parry and it would affect her more than Irene (at some point Teresa would be able to barely move her sword while Irene's move could be twice as big). In addition, the faster Irene could make a swing the faster she could retract it or change it's position in other way so this whole thing is not as simple as you may think. Before Teresa could retract her arm (or move sideways), since she would be 2 times slower Irene would already be attacking her. That's my main point, Irene because of her speed advantage could change her position faster than Teresa could and the previous distance (of 2 m Irene, 1 m Teresa) would be kept no longer.


you block length wise not tip to tip
Never said otherwise, however once the swords clash it's Irene that has the advantage (assuming she's faster) since they're at the same distance at this time, the advantage 2 m Irene, 1 m Teresa is no longer.


she could be deflecting multiple strikes with a single block
She could, assuming that Irene would attack the same spot which is unlikely.

Now, taking into account PYS, I'll try explaining my reasoning by taking as an example Teresa's fight with Priscilla:

As for the anticipation and being always a step ahead, Priscilla was always the one that made the move first and Teresa was the one that reacted after that. Before she acted the move was always in motion and she wasn't acting BEFORE attack happened but DURING the attack. Even when Priscilla attacked first somehow Teresa could outrun her every single time. Unless PYS could predict an attack long before it even reached the specific part of the body (let's say half time of that) it would be impossible (but even then it would be impossible to escape the situation where she was between Priscilla and Irene but I'll write about it later on). And explain to me, if Teresa was slower how come we saw only the blurs (or we didn't see a thing) when she moved/attacked but we can see Priscilla's attacks? I'm referring to this picture (http://www.imagebam.com/image/a3785f45700154). If Teresa could move before Priscilla could, it would only mean she was FASTER even if you took PYS into account. All Priscilla had to do was to also move. And it wasn't even matter of "who made the move first" because it was Priscilla that attacked first. Even if Teresa was the one that attacked first or made a move first (and we clearly know that it was Priscilla that attacked Teresa first with her stretched arm) Priscilla couldn't parry/deflect/dodge her "slower" attacks. While PYS could help Teresa as a defence, it wouldn't be able to accelerate her moves. If Teresa was slower than Priscilla, then no matter how fast PYS was Priscilla would be able to defend against Teresa. The fact she couldn't, means that she was slower, her reaction, her motion sensing and her moves were slower than Teresa's. The fact that PYS is 1000 times faster than Priscilla's move and Teresa's move is 10% slower than Priscilla's move would mean that Priscilla could defend against Teresa's attack.

Let's say that it takes Priscilla 10 ns to make a move and for Teresa it's 11 ns. PYS would make no difference here because it would be so fast that the time you would gain from it would be minimal. If the gap was bigger, for example 10 ns for Priscilla and 15 ns for Teresa, Priscilla could defend against her even more easily. Teresa would not be able to change the attack at the last possible moment according to Priscilla's move (because of inertia and other things) and even if, Priscilla could too if she was faster and stronger than Teresa. Knowing where the opponent would strike you, could protect you from being hit but to not get hit by it and still successfully attack the adversary would be impossible unless you were faster than him. Attack (which was what Priscilla did) takes less time than attack+defence (which was what Teresa did), however Teresa dodged Priscilla's attack and while doing all that she managed to strike Priscilla not once, not twice but THREE times and even got behind her !!! It's cetianly noy thanks to sensing the attack before Priscilla made it and she wasn't even touched by Priscilla. I fail to see how PYS could give that much of an advantage. Priscilla had many occasions then to counter-attack but still couldn't wound Teresa even while Teresa was attacking her!

I'll try to explain my reasoning even better by using numbers (although taken from air you should be able to know what I'm trying to say). Correct me if my reasoning is flawed:

Priscilla
1ns - time required for youki to flow into specific body part
9 ns - time required for specific body part to move and reach the target
(of course time needed for youki to flow into specific body part must be faster than the move itself because otherwise you could make super moves without youki)

Teresa
1ns - time required for youki to flow into specific body part
0,5 ns - time required to approximate where the attack would come from and what it would be like (unless PYS is magical "it can't know" too soon where the youki will flow and how attack will look like, "it has to wait", although IMO it requires much more than half of the time of youki flow but I'm making assumptions unfavourable to me)
0,001 ns - time required for PYS to be activated (it's so small that it could be neglected)

In order to outrun Priscilla, Teresa would have to make a move in less than 8,499 ns compared to Pirscilla's 9ns (Priscilla would need 10 ns, so 10-1-0,5-0,001) but it would only allow her to attack. What about deflecting/dodging/parrying while Priscilla would be attacking her? And how would this look like if Irene and Priscilla were both attacking her?
As you can see Teresa's attack would have to be still faster then Priscilla's, even if she could read youki before it even started to move. If Teresa's youki flew faster than Priscilla's it would still mean that Teresa was faster not thanks to PYS but thanks to quicker youki flow.

SagaraSouske
October 01, 2012, 06:34 PM
Haven't read the raw yet. But based on the Chinese scan, what Clare call Rafaela's technique does not seem to be youki detection or perception at all. Teresa's youki perception already does what is described here without the need to expand any youki sphere. In Slasher's arc, when Clare was concentrating on using PYS, she is already not using her eyes but her youki detection only. Teresa's PYS is superior because it does not require "spread youki field". The only advantage I can think of is Rafaela's technique is purely creating a sphere with a thin layer of youki and detect any disturbance at the boundary of the sphere and thus react accordingly. In certain circumstances, this has advantages, such as against completed cloaked opponents or for whatever reason youki reading can not be performed. But in most other cases, PYS is a better technique to use. I don't see this as much of a power up for Clare.

God Eye Galatea
October 01, 2012, 07:33 PM
Haven't read the raw yet. But based on the Chinese scan, what Clare call Rafaela's technique does not seem to be youki detection or perception at all. Teresa's youki perception already does what is described here without the need to expand any youki sphere. In Slasher's arc, when Clare was concentrating on using PYS, she is already not using her eyes but her youki detection only. Teresa's PYS is superior because it does not require "spread youki field". The only advantage I can think of is Rafaela's technique is purely creating a sphere with a thin layer of youki and detect any disturbance at the boundary of the sphere and thus react accordingly. In certain circumstances, this has advantages, such as against completed cloaked opponents or for whatever reason youki reading can not be performed. But in most other cases, PYS is a better technique to use. I don't see this as much of a power up for Clare.

Yes, it seems to be something like that. I believe Rafaela's technique is yoki detection or perception, but the difference betweenTeresa's PYS and Rafaela's fighting style is rather than detecting and predicting your opponent's yoki, Rafaela's technique is detecting and percieving your own yoki in that field and deal with it accordingly with precision when there is even the slighest change.
The thing is Rafaela had been suppressing her own yoki and was very much cloaked, so I don't think that thin layer of yoki around herself in a field or sphere is released yoki at all. I am thinking along the line that Rafaela expand or spread out her sense of her own yoki, much like blowing a balloon, the balloon is expanding its area around itself, air is not leak out , in her case her yoki is not leak out while the field of her own yoki is expanded around herself.

serpico
October 01, 2012, 07:38 PM
Certainly a inferior technique like the rafaela can't give a edge against Priscilla as we know there not a superior technique than (yoki perception or preemptive )
So there not power up for cleare even if yagi want to make look like that because there not even a technique that can be even on pair with the one that teresa passed on cleare.

---------- Post added at 07:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:35 PM ----------

It we're referred to a esfera of yoki it no that pretty much like seikuken from kenichi.

Goral
October 02, 2012, 12:08 AM
(...) It is actually,
"Expanding (opening) a field (film) of yoki (detection or perception I suppose) surronding the body, one can achieve precise movement even beyond the field of vision."(...)
If it is like this then it is a rip-off of Hunter x Hunter.

But if Yagi is ripping off then it's good he's doing it from the best.

Anyway, this could explain why Irene could have assessed Rafaela's power level once she was close enough ("As strong as you are why have you stopped at #5?"). Previously I made up an excuse (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=2077778#post2077778) for Yagi and said that she just deduced that Rafaela must be super strong if she was sent to kill HER (probably the strongest #3 in history) while being cloaked. Not to mention that to reach a cloaked state she would need years which would beg the question how come she could fight ABs like that.

But what really happened (assuming this translation is accurate) was probably that Rafaela has always used that technique and could contain the field of youki to few meters only (the range of her sword) making herself effectively cloaked for anyone except the closest opponent. Few centimetres would give her nothing because before she could react to the object she would be dead (unless she would rely on other senses) since there would be almost no delay between the attack reaching her "zone" and reaching her body

I've had a somewhat similar theory 4 years ago but about Teresa. (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=1464779#post1464779)

I have fanboyish theory why Teresa wouldn't have to worry about anyone detecting her youki. She was so skilled at releasing her youma powers that she could control radius of youki radiation to some degree (but of course because she is the most powerful warrior this radius coudn't have been 0 m) or because she specialized at youki sensing in close range the same applied to emitting youki.

The Based
October 02, 2012, 06:48 AM
The way I see it is that if Clare had this technique back when she faced Ophelia she might have been able to dodge rippling sword. It seems to complement PYS very nicely.

MalakTawus
October 02, 2012, 11:04 AM
Raphaela's technique is not inferior to Teresa's technique at all, it is better in some areas and it's worse in others.
Actually, being able to perform both techniques (like Claire) is something quite terrifying if you think about it: the only weak points of Teresa's technique were against "cloacked" attacks or against attacks that emit too much yoki (like happened with Prissy): now Claire should have both those weaknesses covered and if you add to that her crazy QS that is able to react both in defence and offence to basically anything........scary!

......not to mention that it's possible that PSY could have some problem even when Claire herself releases an immense amount of yoki, instead Yoki-Field should have no problem with that,on the contrary it could could become even better (bigger radius).

Also it's highly possible that Claire will use a combination of the two techniques and not one technique separated from the other.
In conclusion, IMO Raphaela's Yoki-Field technique could be a crazy power up for Claire since combined with PSY, Claire should be able to use "prediction" even in high-energy fights, like against Priscilla.

If Claire really is hiding an immense yoki (like i speculate), she could become a real monster capable of fighting on equal ground against even Prissy.

su5so
October 02, 2012, 02:29 PM
MalakTawus:
But although Clare can use this skill against Priscilla,
Remember that predicts the attack when it is already started, and only 2 or 3 feet away of her body. To avoid it you need the speed necessary and I doubt that Clare has the same speed as Priscilla. Instead, Priscilla in human form much faster than Clare. In awakened form, further.

serpico
October 02, 2012, 04:34 PM
Indeed Priscilla it faster than half or full awakene cleare an as you say an he human form.

Elandyll
October 02, 2012, 05:21 PM
Given that -eventually- from a story logic perspective the fact that Clare has Theresa's flesh -should- have an importance, and that could change the circumstances drastically on Clare's speed, but that is still to be seen, obviously.
What we do know is that Clare got (yet another) power up. Also, we still haven't even seen the full effect of the power up from the 7 year hiatus (Clare has been unable to partially awaken so far), let alone this one, so ... hang in there :)

SagaraSouske
October 02, 2012, 05:45 PM
Teresa's PYS is far superior for a number of reasons:

1. Reading youki flow means you know exactly what type of attack is being performed. it's almost like reading the future. Rafaela's technique on the other hand, is only able to react when the attack hits the youki sphere and you have less information on the type of attack, speed, power and nature of attack compare to PYS.
2. The reaction time or the time you can anticipate and act is far less with Rafaela's technique since after all the attack is already on the way. Thus it is much more difficult to deal with someone much faster then you, unlike PYS, where you know as soon as the person starts the attack and can preemptively attack or dodge without the need to be on par in raw speed and power.
3. PYS is much more useful against multiple opponents, especially when they are teaming up with tactics to force you dodge or move in a certain way or to a certain direction. With Rafaela's skill, you can only dodge or parry block attacks that are already executed and thus is liable to tactics that seal off all your escape routes by orchestrating your movements. With PYS, you always have complete information available from all opponents (other then completely cloaked) to make optimum decisions ahead of time and never be cornered by such tactics.

While I agree Raf's skill makes up for some weaknesses such as cloaking opponents and opponents that you are unable to read youki from, it in itself is an inferior technique.

serpico
October 02, 2012, 06:17 PM
Teresa's PYS is far superior for a number of reasons:

1. Reading youki flow means you know exactly what type of attack is being performed. it's almost like reading the future. Rafaela's technique on the other hand, is only able to react when the attack hits the youki sphere and you have less information on the type of attack, speed, power and nature of attack compare to PYS.
2. The reaction time or the time you can anticipate and act is far less with Rafaela's technique since after all the attack is already on the way. Thus it is much more difficult to deal with someone much faster then you, unlike PYS, where you know as soon as the person starts the attack and can preemptively attack or dodge without the need to be on par in raw speed and power.
3. PYS is much more useful against multiple opponents, especially when they are teaming up with tactics to force you dodge or move in a certain way or to a certain direction. With Rafaela's skill, you can only dodge or parry block attacks that are already executed and thus is liable to tactics that seal off all your escape routes by orchestrating your movements. With PYS, you always have complete information available from all opponents (other then completely cloaked) to make optimum decisions ahead of time and never be cornered by such tactics.

While I agree Raf's skill makes up for some weaknesses such as cloaking opponents and opponents that you are unable to read youki from, it in itself is an inferior technique.

Certainly you're right I like you post an even more so PYS it's best of the best granted the title of the strongest technique for the organization in self.

Goral
October 02, 2012, 11:24 PM
@SagaraSouske

If it is superior then only because Yagi explicitly says so, not because there are hints pointing towards that notion.

1) No, reading youki flow doesn't mean you know exactly what type of attack is being performed. Priscilla's and Ophelia's attacks are proof of that. At best they roughly give you an idea of general direction so it works best for ranged attacks where trajectory is unlikely to change and where you have enough time to react or for sneak attacks if an opponent emits youki. Also, PYS doesn't tell Teresa/Clare how to hold her sword and at what angle parry the attack. Worse even, it doesn't say her how will attack of her opponent look like. If it is a conventional, schematic attack that Claymores learned from MiB instructors then sure. But if it has any element of randomness or unconventionality then it can even be a handicap as seen in a fight with Priscilla (where Teresa had to switch it off) or Ophelia (where Clare was so focused on youki flow that she didn't even pay attention to where the sword was really going). So far we've seen it works only for ranged attacks (like Riguald's or male AB in Slasher's arc) and maybe to not be surprised by an attack and that's it. In other cases we have no proof if it works since we do not know if it had been used (logically it shouldn't be used but since it's manga which with every chapter starts to resemble Naruto more and more then it's not impossible).

2) Doesn't matter in the long run since this advantage is only with the first attack and even then youki flow must be much, MUCH faster than the attack itself so... And PYS can't freeze time so unless Teresa was faster than the attack itself she could never escape from an attack like this (http://www.imagebam.com/image/1dad5f45376766).

3) No, it's not much more useful against miltiple opponents. In fact, it's useless. It would suffice that two opponents would go at PYS user from two opposite directions at the same time and it would be a game over unless he would have much greater speed than them. Having only 1 sword and arms from one side only it would be impossible to counter such attack even if someone would know the future.

PYS is the most overestimated technique in Claymore and the reason for this is that people do not think and take Naruto (sharingan) as proof it must work.

I'm tired of discussing this matter with you SS but I wanted to present the other side. If you want to discuss it further go here please so that we wouldn't spam this thread with quote wars: http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showthread.php/53225-How-could-Teresa-stop-the-Flash-Sword

Some pictures which show PYS's weakness:

http://thumbnails13.imagebam.com/4605/aa940c46040226.gif (http://www.imagebam.com/image/aa940c46040226) http://thumbnails18.imagebam.com/4605/9526f746040235.gif (http://www.imagebam.com/image/9526f746040235) http://thumbnails16.imagebam.com/4605/bb7b7846040054.gif (http://www.imagebam.com/image/bb7b7846040054)

MalakTawus
October 03, 2012, 04:28 AM
MalakTawus:
But although Clare can use this skill against Priscilla,
Remember that predicts the attack when it is already started, and only 2 or 3 feet away of her body. To avoid it you need the speed necessary and I doubt that Clare has the same speed as Priscilla. Instead, Priscilla in human form much faster than Clare. In awakened form, further.


Who said that it's only 2 or 3 feet away?
Claire has no reason to keep herself cloacked against Prissy (like Raph did) so releasing her yoki at full power she should be able to expand the radius of the technique a lot more (notice that i also speculated that Claire is hiding an immense yoki, if not it's impossible anyway to fight against Prissy for obvious reasons).

So like i have said, imo if Claire can combine PSY and Yoki Field and if she really is hiding a very powerful yoki, she should be able to fight against Prissy on equal ground thanx to her new QS (that also would become even stronger the more yoki Claire possess).
And no, i don't think that Prissy would be faster than Claire's powered up QS.

@SagaraSouske

It's true that PSY is better in "normal" fights, but the problem is that Claire's objective is NOT a normal fight at all.
Against Prissy PSY alone is completely useless, so basically all the good points that you mentioned mean absolutely nothing since the technique can't be used at all.
So no, Raphaela's Yoki Field is not an inferior technique at all, it's just a technique that shines in different situations.
If Claire manages to fuse somehow the two techniques she would possess the craziest prediction technique ever created.

@Gooral

I agree in part with your post,but imo you are understimating PSY a lot just because Claire was still learning how to use it, against Ophelia she was still far from mastering the technique.
You say that PSY gives only a general direction of the attack, while instead that's not true at all, it's just that Claire was still green, infact even against Ophy's secret technique, if you reember well Claire was able to sense that Ophelia was about to do "something strange", and unless you think that Claire has some sort of mysterious sixth sense, it's quite obvious that even that prediction is due to PSY.........but since she was still unskilled that was the most she could do at that time (and she wasn't even sure if the danger she felt was real or not).


Also, it's true that techniques like PSY or Yoki Field are completely useless if the warrior herself is not very strong (since she need to be able to react in time to the various predictions, otherwise knowing the way you'll die is not very helpful,lol), but in the hands of a warrior with crazy reaction time they could transform that very strong warrior in a real monster.

Claire now could create the ultimate prediction technique, that combined with the fastest technique (QS) would basically make Claire the ultimate warrior technique-wise.
Now all she needs to fight against Prissy on equal ground is a powerful enough yoki.

Btw, Gooral, your 3rd point is quite bad to be honest, cause you are not considering that knowing the way the two enemies attack you from opposite directions, even if you have only one sword from one side you are COMPLETELY forgetting the right approach to that situation: dodge the attacks, and only AFTER that (or while you dodge) killing easily the two morons that attack you.
Of course if you also possess QS.......

su5so
October 03, 2012, 04:53 PM
MalakTawus:
The QS faster than Priscilla? I doubt it. The QS must be clearly inferior to the semi-awakened Clare. And in this way, Clare just made ​​a few cuts to Priscilla in human form. (And the antagonist did not seem surprised by the speed of the attack, remember that she was harmed like this for Alice, then she surpassed in speed in an instant and kill her). So the QS not hurt her at all.

About the PSY is true that apart from block two attacks at once, it is easier to dodge. But Goral is right. Along the battle, if the opponent is faster, although she knows where they attack, she can not dodge or block them all. Is logic and an indisputable fact.

And I agree with you about the distance of hability, with the yoki occult of Clare, must be lengthened much.

SagaraSouske
October 03, 2012, 06:18 PM
@Gooral

This is a rehash of old arguments and there are already tons of details being used as examples on this subject. But I agree with the point raised by Malak the neither Ophelia nor Pris are good examples. If you want to bring up Ophelia, you must also consider slasher arc's male AB. The performance of PYS is quite a contrast between these two fights and it isn't due to PYS being weak but rather Clare not being as a proficient user of the skill to read Ophelia's technique.

1. If PYS cannot predict pinpoint accuracy of how the attack will come about, Clare would not have been able to dodge Slasher Arc male AB's multiple tentacle attack strike at a very small area around her. She would have to know the exact trajectory and speed of each tentacle to step into a spot to avoid all of them.

2. Youki flowing faster or slower is not relevant. It's akin to me reading your muscle movement before you swing your arm or move your bodyl. No matter how fast you are, the time it takes you to use youki to perform the attack till the attack hits the youki sphere is significantly more then the time it takes to travel from the sphere to you. Thus PYS gives the user far more reaction time then Raf's technique even if we do not count the additional info gained from youki reading. It works for every single attack since for every attack performed, one must direct youki towards the execution of such attack.

3. Raf's technique facing multiple opponent in your example will fare even worse because there will be less time to react and less choices available due to the attack already being on the way instead of just being executed. And I have always disagreed on the notion that one must be equally as fast or faster than your opponent to dodge or block or counter attack. With foresight, one can be slower and perform actions that appears to happen first. It's a fundamental philosophy of martial arts that one can act second and score first due to being able to read the opponent and choose actions that will end up arriving first. Every action/attack has an opportunity cost, if you know that cost ahead of time, you can make your opponent pay dearly. PYS is a superhuman form of that philosophy taking it to the extreme.

@Malak, I already agree that Raf's technique is useful in certain specific circumstances. I am just saying in general PYS is better. As for fight with Pris, that remains to be seen. Just because Teresa couldn't read Pris's youki doesn't mean Clare can't. It is entirely possible for Yagi to allow Clare perfect the technique beyond what Teresa is capable of. She certainly was able to read Riful's youki with no problem and dodge her attacks. PYS reinforced QS also is her most potent technique at the moment. Raf's technique would not enhance it in anyway.

I am sure she can do both and using Raf's technique cover some of the situations where it will be better. But primarily it is still PYS that will allow her to archive her victory.

MalakTawus
October 03, 2012, 06:27 PM
@su5so

First of all, it makes no sense saying that the QS is inferior to semi awakened Claire, one is a technique, the other is a "status".
Second, Priscilla was able to see only the very beginning of the technique since Claire stopped herself.
Third, i CLEARLY speculated that to fight Prissy Claire needs an immense yoki, but if that really happens it's obvious that even her QS will become way stronger.
Fourth, Priscilla has ALWAYS been confident 'cause she belives no one can defeat her anyway. She was very calm and confident even when she faced Teresa........but Teresa kicked her ass,lol.

About PSY i still not agree. Knowing how the enemies will attack is an IMMENSE advantage. You people are understimating in a ridiculous way the knowledge to move your body in a 3d space.
The only way that your enemies will be able to touch you is if they are CLEARLY faster than you (and not just a bit faster!) because if they are not, you can basically move in the 3d space dodging their attacks and AT THE SAME TIME attacking them in their weak points, killing them very easily.

Elandyll
October 04, 2012, 10:29 AM
I just re-read the whole Teresa ambush chapters, and all I have to say is that Irene was a conceited fool who was the cause of this entire debacle.
Thinking again about all this, I think she was merely trying to atone for her horrible mistakes when she decided to help Clare.

Yep, I went there :)

Blazeoptimus
October 04, 2012, 10:55 AM
I just re-read the whole Teresa ambush chapters, and all I have to say is that Irene was a conceited fool who was the cause of this entire debacle.
Thinking again about all this, I think she was merely trying to atone for her horrible mistakes when she decided to help Clare.

Yep, I went there :)

I don't think of her as conceited or foolish. I do agree with you though that she made a pretty big mistake, and that she was trying to atone for it. If you remember Theresa went to great lengths to hide her complete potential. Irene did what any warrior would in her position. She made an estimate of what it would take to achieve the goal, and made a recommendation based on that. Unfortunately for her, her recommendation was woefully inadequate with disaterous results. To me, the ultimate blame rests with the organization (as usual) for creating the situation in the first place. They made the most key mistakes (putting a novice at such a high rank so that shed have to face a hardened veteran, creating a false onus of protecting humanity, not jus letting Theresa go).

Super Angillis
October 04, 2012, 11:55 AM
Well Priss went in thinking that Justice was on her side, and she couldn't lose. But actually Justice was on Teresa's side.

I think that Raphelea's technique will actually work well if used with Yoki Sensing. Being able to sense an attack coming doesn't mean a thing if you can't dodge it. If Raphelea's technique enables Claire to move faster, then she can dodge better.

serpico
August 08, 2013, 01:21 AM
Well Priscilla said it to clare you're sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooboringggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg even wen clare was attacking while semi awakened (why clare was able to cut or injury Priscilla? Simply because Priscilla wasn't even bothering to Dodge ) even so I like it how she put clare on her place by given it two slaps) and don't get me wrong a part from Teresa clare me secondary beloved character more than even miria or anyone else