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Doumo
September 19, 2009, 09:53 AM
Well...there's a reasoning in my brain that wants to come out,so here it's:
Kyoraku says about Toushiro that, given him 100 years, he could become stronger than him...
now Hitsu graded in 1 year at the Shinigami Academy...but there's someone else that did the same thing and that we can call a genius:
Ichimaru Gin... now given that Gin actually had a hundred years is Kubo trying to tell us that Gin is actually stronger than Shunsui ?
Think also that he may have a frightening fox-like hollow mask to make him ever stronger...:ginbo
Let me hear your opinions...

Mifune_Taichou
September 19, 2009, 10:05 AM
There is really no way to tell so I'm gonna have to say Shunsui. Gin wasnt hiding his bankai and Shunsui was still considered stronger.

I just cant imagine him being that strong and as for being a vaizard I really dont think so.

As for Hitsugaya and gin as genius' hmm...They really seem to be on the same level. When they fought in the manga(not the anime) all that happened was Hitsugaya went shikai and then froze gin;s arm. gin went shikai and Hitsugaya dodged. If anything it seems Hitsugaya is more skilled. You could argue Gin wasnt serious but we dont know that and besides if hitsugaya was really serious he would have gone bankai like he did later. EIther way there is nothing to show Gin as stronger than Hitsugaya so he should still be weaker than Shunsui.

Gran Maestro
September 19, 2009, 10:29 AM
This is not the face of a person who is not serious (middle right panel):

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/132/07/

And all geniuses are not equal. One genius (Hitsugaya) may be more talented than another (Gin). We didn't see Gin's full abilities yet but Kubo created a rivalry between Hitsugaya and Gin for a reason and in Bleach a rivalry suggests two opponents who are more or less on a par. (Example: Komamura vs Tousen)

Since Shunsui is stronger than Hitsugaya, IMO he is also stronger than Gin.

Mifune_Taichou
September 19, 2009, 10:34 AM
This is not the face of a person who is not serious (middle right panel):

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/132/07/

And all geniuses are not equal. One genius (Hitsugaya) may be more talented than another (Gin). We didn't see Gin's full abilities yet but Kubo created a rivalry between Hitsugaya and Gin for a reason and in Bleach a rivalry suggests two opponents who are more or less on a par. (Example: Komamura vs Tousen)

Since Shunsui is stronger than Hitsugaya, IMO he is also stronger than Gin.

Yh dnt get me wrong I think Gin was being serious, I just meant some people(mostly Hitsuhaters) keep claiming he wasnt to deflect the fact that he lost that fight if anything.

I agree they are rivals and should be roughly on par. If anything from their encounter Hitsugaya came out on top and not the other way around.

Gran Maestro
September 19, 2009, 10:51 AM
Yh dnt get me wrong I think Gin was being serious, I just meant some people(mostly Hitsuhaters) keep claiming he wasnt to deflect the fact that he lost that fight if anything.

You got me wrong, I was talking about people who say Gin wasn't serious. My post looked like I was answering you, sorry. :)

En Yang Ji
September 19, 2009, 11:01 AM
If anything I think Gin is stronger because Gin is the only one he considered his VC. Aizen probably wouldn't care so much about Gin if he was only around Halibel's level, after a 100 years.

Gran Maestro
September 19, 2009, 11:06 AM
If anything I think Gin is stronger because Gin is the only one he considered his VC.

What other choice did Aizen have? It isn't as if Shunsui would accept to be Aizen's VC.

Mifune_Taichou
September 19, 2009, 11:18 AM
If anything I think Gin is stronger because Gin is the only one he considered his VC. Aizen probably wouldn't care so much about Gin if he was only around Halibel's level, after a 100 years.

he considered Gin to be his VC because Gin was the one still serving his real purpose. It doesnt have any bearing on power and as Gran maestro said its not like anyone else was going to take the position. And Tosen is just crap.

En Yang Ji
September 19, 2009, 12:04 PM
Still, Doumo has a point. Gin and Hitsu showed similar accomplishments and Shunsui said Hitsu would probably surpass him in a 100 years.

Doumo
September 19, 2009, 01:17 PM
I though that people would've started to call in the fact that Hitsugaya is a captain when Gin wasn't a captain 100 years ago to justify the fact that Toshiro is stronger than Gin...but it would clearly be an error since Gin at the time hided his true potentials so he could stay with Aizen in the 5th division...just think that just after graduating, 110 years before the present, Aizen had him facing the 3th seat and he called him "worthless"...
which explains why Aizen wanted him in his division,foreseeing his potential...

Random101
September 19, 2009, 02:06 PM
Gin was still a vice captain roughly 40 years ago when Hinamori was in school, though granted we don't know what level he was really at.

Anyway on topic, in terms of Shikai Gin's is one of the most useless while Kyoraku's is unwieldy. Pretty much everything else Kyoraku should have the edge, having vastly more experience, especially since, stat wise, Gin is a generalist. I'd pretty much give it to Kyoraku any day of the week, though the brokenness of their bankai may decide it.

benelori
September 19, 2009, 02:08 PM
Well...there's a reasoning in my brain that wants to come out,so here it's:
Kyoraku says about Toushiro that, given him 100 years, he could become stronger than him...
now Hitsu graded in 1 year at the Shinigami Academy...but there's someone else that did the same thing and that we can call a genius:
Ichimaru Gin... now given that Gin actually had a hundred years is Kubo trying to tell us that Gin is actually stronger than Shunsui ?
Think also that he may have a frightening fox-like hollow mask to make him ever stronger...:ginbo
Let me hear your opinions...

I think when kyouraku had that conversation the topic was strength of bankai...hyourinmaru is the strongest ice-snow based zan in SS, so it is very possible that in terms of destructive, power hax abilities hitsu's bankai is stronger than gin's...
Now I vote for Gin...not being a hitsuhater or anything(I actually don't hate or admire characters, except oro) I, too am one of those people who thinks Gin was just playing during their encounter...I'm probably more influenced
by the anime...but Gin smiledalmost the entire fight and he began to be serious when hitsu released...he didn't even release at once...he thought about the situation calmly and used hinamori as a weapon...it's not honorable, but Rukia's description of gin makes perfect sense in this case, too...But I voted a draw, becuz each of them has advantages over the other in terms of available weapons and style, also there's no more genius than another genius...so unohana will be busy

poobert
September 19, 2009, 04:12 PM
Gin is Aizen's lieutenant. That alone counts for something huge. He is also scarily calm. Now shunsui is all laid back and all, but Gin is on another level. He is never flustered and always in that creepy good mood of his. He even has the nerve to mock aizen from time to time.

The back story when he was said to be a genius just adds to the mystery. The fact that he has never been shown to be stronger than even byakuya, to whom he was directly compared. He even casually makes mistakes from time to time as a joke (like when he pushed Ichigo back through the gate). He takes everything too jokingly.

Because of this I assume he must be awesome.

Hachigeneral
September 20, 2009, 08:12 AM
Woah, Shunsui is stomping in the poll. I voted Shunsui too because he has been around a lot longer (arguably faster, more reiatsu), shows he will do anything to win (sneak attacks), and has the shikai advantage. Wind blasts and a demon game that equalizes the field is better than an extendable sword.

The funny thing is Gin being stronger is justifiable based on the hype factor considering Aizen treats him as an equal. Gin may be a vizard or just be stronger from learning from Aizen. I believe he toyed with Hitsuguya because the goal was to make Hitsuguya kill Hinamori, not Gin kill Hitsuguya. The ice kid aint bad, but Gins a bit better...sorry. ;)

Doumo
September 20, 2009, 11:00 AM
What I find more astonishing in Shunsui is that he is supposed to be a Kido expert user and yet he hasn't used it once...this could mean that until now he never felt the need to do so...with Gin I think we could get to se Shunsui fighting seriously...

Random101
September 20, 2009, 04:36 PM
Not surprising. A majority of Kido users have pretty much never used them. Hitsugaya has his kido stat on the same level as Byakuya for one, and Tousen has much the same. Both of them we've seen use the thing once (Well twice for Tousen) in a situation outside of battle. Kubo tends to forget about the stuff until it comes in handy.

Mifune_Taichou
September 20, 2009, 06:05 PM
Woah, Shunsui is stomping in the poll. I voted Shunsui too because he has been around a lot longer (arguably faster, more reiatsu), shows he will do anything to win (sneak attacks), and has the shikai advantage. Wind blasts and a demon game that equalizes the field is better than an extendable sword.

The funny thing is Gin being stronger is justifiable based on the hype factor considering Aizen treats him as an equal. Gin may be a vizard or just be stronger from learning from Aizen. I believe he toyed with Hitsuguya because the goal was to make Hitsuguya kill Hinamori, not Gin kill Hitsuguya. The ice kid aint bad, but Gins a bit better...sorry. ;)

Id say something about how you have nothing to actually back that stament up but id be wasting my time wouldnt I?

Anyway since Gin hasnt shown one bit being stronger than even Hitsugaya its a non starter to argue hed be better than Shunsui. different levels, different worlds. Not to mention that I think Hitsugaya was higher than Gin in the stats in the databook so....Shunsui would crush him.

Random101
September 20, 2009, 07:14 PM
Hitsugaya was higher in Kido, which naturally wasn't used by either of them, and Mobility, which is solid as per canon as he out maneuvered the guy.

Yans86
November 20, 2009, 07:15 AM
It's funny how u guys use STAT whenever u need to support your loved characters.....u can't compare captain by stats cause they r potential...u know,I know, we know!!!
Gin Vs Kyouraku?I don't think we have enough element to judge it!!
We know nothing about Gin and experience doesn't means s**t in the bleachverse....

Said that,it would be the dirtiest "Fight" we can imagine in bleachverse....cause in the end "Mayuri" doesn't really fight in the real sense of the term and Aizen is just "HAX"....
I can't imagine how many tricky play this guy would put on! :-p

kalik2k
November 20, 2009, 12:25 PM
Kyoraku blatantly takes the win. He's got a brilliant Shikai and a Bankai that makes Ukitake nervous, not to mention he has technique, probably Kidou knowledge with the plus side of experience after 250+ years as a Captain.

Gin is skilled and crafty but when he was fighting with Hitsugaya after the Momo ordeal he made me think, how strong is he really? Hitsugaya could of got rid of one of his arms during that battle unless Gin wasn't even trying even during the times he was on the offensive.

ninjaman
November 20, 2009, 02:35 PM
comparing gin vs shinsui is stupid since we didnt really see what gin can really do.. all we saw so far is him shooting his sword -.-
[hr]

Kyoraku blatantly takes the win. He's got a brilliant Shikai and a Bankai that makes Ukitake nervous, not to mention he has technique, probably Kidou knowledge with the plus side of experience after 250+ years as a Captain.

Gin is skilled and crafty but when he was fighting with Hitsugaya after the Momo ordeal he made me think, how strong is he really? Hitsugaya could of got rid of one of his arms during that battle unless Gin wasn't even trying even during the times he was on the offensive.

i doubt gin was even trying to kill hitsugay ha

exacta
November 20, 2009, 03:01 PM
Kyoraku blatantly takes the win. He's got a brilliant Shikai and a Bankai that makes Ukitake nervous, not to mention he has technique, probably Kidou knowledge with the plus side of experience after 250+ years as a Captain.

Gin is skilled and crafty but when he was fighting with Hitsugaya after the Momo ordeal he made me think, how strong is he really? Hitsugaya could of got rid of one of his arms during that battle unless Gin wasn't even trying even during the times he was on the offensive.

I never thought I'd say something like this, but we've actually seen more from Shunsui than Gin......

I wouldn't say his Bankai made Ukitake nervous either. What Ukitake was really saying is that he shouldn't use it where it can be seen, which I think probably implies theres something very unique about it and using where other enemies can see it we'll rob him of that advantage, or if the Bankai's a really big double edged sword, might end up getting him killed later. I think the awesome Kidou you speak of might be too much speculation. He's yet to use any kidou, so he might not use it, though his Kidou stats might be decent, I don't know.

We've seen very little from Gin. Gin didn't even use his shikai til Hitsugaya seemingly cornered him, which Hitsu narrowly dodged. For Gin's one only fight, that fight was way too brief.

Another thing that makes this hard to decide is the fact that Shunsui's shikai is game based. In other words, power levels are irrelevant in this sense, and it comes down to strategy. Gin and Shunsui both seem very cunning. I would assume Shunsui would win though, but Kubo has hidden so much of what Gin can do that he might be uber strong for all we know. Kubo has given us a much better idea of Tousen and Aizens potential.

El Samurai Guapo
November 20, 2009, 03:28 PM
Of course we haven't seen all that either of these characters have to offer, but we have seen both of their shikai. Therefore, from what we know so far, I'd say Shunsui takes this. During Shunsui's zanpakutou game, Gin looses his shikai abilities advantage as well...which wasn't much to begin with.

An extending katana, big deal.

Raizen
November 20, 2009, 03:55 PM
People are making oo big of a deal out of the whole "Aizen saw gin as his only VC". Of course he had to settle w/ gin b/c he really had no one left in SS that would support him aside from tousen. And that statement also is not really that impressive seeing as how he only sees him as a VC.

Also, saying that "gin is w/ aizen means he must be something" is a failed argument. Who is to say that aizen is stronger than shunsui? Aizen may only have the advantage due to his shikai. Even unohana basically implied that it is aizen's shikai that is holding them back. I am just saying that although aizen may be the main protagonist, it doesn't automatically make him stronger than other characters.

In the fight btw gin and hitsu, hitsu clearly had the advantage. Saying that gin is always smiling does not help your point b/c that is his personality. Hitsu's skills turned his smile upside down. If it weren't for hinamori, gin would have been screwed.

Shunsui is clearly more experienced and skillful. His shikai alone is extremely powerful, gin is just a sword that goes straight.Given shunsui's speed, that shouldn't be a problem

Yans86
November 21, 2009, 10:13 AM
People are making oo big of a deal out of the whole "Aizen saw gin as his only VC". Of course he had to settle w/ gin b/c he really had no one left in SS that would support him aside from tousen.

Please,show me the page.Where is it sayed that Aizen didn't have support so he had to settle with Gin??When did he searched support??Aizen's choice looked pretty smart IMO in both Gin and Tousen case....


And that statement also is not really that impressive seeing as how he only sees him as a VC.Also, saying that "gin is w/ aizen means he must be something" is a failed argument.

Cough cough......lol!.....HIS VC....FIXED!u make it look like Aizen wanted a VC level to be his VC...for the LolZ I guess..
What would Kubo answer you,if u ask him: Why did Aizen choose a "baby genius" as his VC from the very beginning,if he had already Tousen that could use also bankai???
Certainly he won't say that the "baby genius" was weaker then Tousen....


Who is to say that aizen is stronger than shunsui? Aizen may only have the advantage due to his shikai. Even unohana basically implied that it is aizen's shikai that is holding them back. I am just saying that although aizen may be the main protagonist, it doesn't automatically make him stronger than other characters.

If Shunsui can Block Koma shikai with one hand,or Ichigo bankai back then with 1 finger(he was full powered,u can't deny it,it's FACT),then we can possibly consider that they have similar strenght...there's nothing else that can possibly point to them being equal.....but I know,reality is harsh....



In the fight btw gin and hitsu, hitsu clearly had the advantage. Saying that gin is always smiling does not help your point b/c that is his personality. Hitsu's skills turned his smile upside down. If it weren't for hinamori, gin would have been screwed.

Lol again!!!
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/132/01/ what I see here is a really calm person VS an enraged one...
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/132/08/ I know that Hitsu's fan like this image and for them is proof of him dominating his fight...but let's say a few things before:
_Gin never attacked him (he was having fun)
_Gin never intendend to kill him,he was there on Aizen order http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/173/05/ to make Hitsu and Izuru fight/kill Hinamori.....
What interest would Gin have in killing Hitsu???
If Gin had Hitsu killed,he would have been jailed,suspected on having killed 2 captains!!!Aizen's plan would have been screwed in many points,it would not have been a smart move from Gin....

Well,what happened next?
Hitsu started to freeze Gin arm....till we arrive to this point:
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/132/10/
What I see here,is a "what a nuisance brat u r"....Hitsu was lucky that Gin said the release command and shooted so slow that he could dodge....and note what happen next....
Gin aimed 3 point in one attack:
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/132/11/
_The ice on his arm
_Hitsu's eye
_Hinamori
Note: the sword was extending so slow that he could give a speech in the meanwhile and Matsumoto could step in.(almost breakin her sword)If he shoot they way he did with Hiyori u know that the result would be totally different....

Referring to Hitsu...this is not the way a "winner" would talk...
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/133/04/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/133/05/
Referring to Gin...this is not the way a "looser" would talk...

But we know it already,in Hitsu's fans eyes,he always wins hands down,without actually "killing/damage his opponent".....Gin cough cough......Halibel cough cough....Luppi is not worth anything,and I don't think there's more on this argument...


Shunsui is clearly more experienced and skillful. His shikai alone is extremely powerful, gin is just a sword that goes straight.Given shunsui's speed, that shouldn't be a problem

Can u prove it that he is more experienced and more skillful??If we were talkin about anyone else in SS I would agree...but in this case it's different.For thousands reasons...
beside Gin being a genius,Hitsu surpassing Shunsui in 100 years ecc....ecc.....with Gin/Aizen/Tousen the EXPERIENCE speech can't work.
These guys didn't randomly fight like in SS(a captain class shinigami would be called to fight seriously against who???maybe a VL if he is lucky,or a group of adjuchas...once every God only knows how many years/decades).
Aizen/Gin Tousen spent the last hundreds years submitting/seekin/fighting strong hollows in HM...what most of the captain luckily meet once every year,they more/more often...

And well,it's quite paradoxhal that u say "nothing says that Aizen is stronger then Shunsui cause he has an hax shikai",2 seconds later u say "Shunsui shikai is extremely powerful,Gin's sword just goes straight,it must not be a problem given Shunsui speed..."......r u serious??so,if we r talkin about Shunsui,it's right to include his shikai,if we r talkin about Aizen,it is not??PLZzZZzZZzzzz...
Well,I give u a couple of news:
1)Gin's sword doesn't necessarily go straight
ex.
Hiyori would have been pierced and not cutted.
Many others times we have seen the sword bend...but ok,u like to ignore things...
2)If really his sword was so simple to avoid/beat,he wouldn't be praised by the entirety of SS as a GENIUS.....but it's ok if u want to "INFER" that the guy is such a GODLIKE in "kidou"/"movements"/"hand-to hand" that his swords skill aren't necessary.....


As many have pointed out,we don't have enough element and we can only speculate.Surely it would be an hell of a fight,but saying that one can destroy the other with ease,is totally silly at the moment.

Last question.....why should Kubo create Aizen's right hand as a weakling???
In all manga,in all stories,the right hand of the main villain stands always at "THE TOP" .
_Compared to the protagonist...."slighly below"
_Compared to GOOD GUYS HEADS / PROTAGONIST RIGHT HAND MAN "on par/slightly below-above".....depending from the story.

Usually the right hand man of the villain,is the cruel character.Often used as a "last" stepping stone to make the protagonist stronger or his right-hand man the strongest after him and the main antagonist.

Random101
November 21, 2009, 11:59 PM
If Gin had Hitsu killed,he would have been jailed,suspected on having killed 2 captains!!!Aizen's plan would have been screwed in many points,it would not have been a smart move from Gin....
Ignoring the rest, as frankly the bias is so apparent it's near blinding, he broke out Izuru with no order from any of the higher ups and without any permission in the dead of night. With the outright stated full intentions to leave the scene such that that was the FIRST thing people suspected. Already not a smart move.

Sinedd
November 22, 2009, 06:40 AM
Ignoring the rest, as frankly the bias is so apparent it's near blinding, he broke out Izuru with no order from any of the higher ups and without any permission in the dead of night. With the outright stated full intentions to leave the scene such that that was the FIRST thing people suspected. Already not a smart move.

I don´t think killing a captain and letting out a vice-captain from your own division from jail have the same magnitude of consequence. Besides, two other vice-captains broke out at the same time, so it wouldn't be much of big deal. The only one screaming bloody murder was Toshiro but I doubt anybody from the captains will give him any creed.

Raizen
November 22, 2009, 05:16 PM
Please,show me the page.Where is it sayed that Aizen didn't have support so he had to settle with Gin??When did he searched support??Aizen's choice looked pretty smart IMO in both Gin and Tousen case....



Cough cough......lol!.....HIS VC....FIXED!u make it look like Aizen wanted a VC level to be his VC...for the LolZ I guess..
What would Kubo answer you,if u ask him: Why did Aizen choose a "baby genius" as his VC from the very beginning,if he had already Tousen that could use also bankai???
Certainly he won't say that the "baby genius" was weaker then Tousen....



If Shunsui can Block Koma shikai with one hand,or Ichigo bankai back then with 1 finger(he was full powered,u can't deny it,it's FACT),then we can possibly consider that they have similar strenght...there's nothing else that can possibly point to them being equal.....but I know,reality is harsh....




Lol again!!!
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/132/01/ what I see here is a really calm person VS an enraged one...
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/132/08/ I know that Hitsu's fan like this image and for them is proof of him dominating his fight...but let's say a few things before:
_Gin never attacked him (he was having fun)
_Gin never intendend to kill him,he was there on Aizen order http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/173/05/ to make Hitsu and Izuru fight/kill Hinamori.....
What interest would Gin have in killing Hitsu???
If Gin had Hitsu killed,he would have been jailed,suspected on having killed 2 captains!!!Aizen's plan would have been screwed in many points,it would not have been a smart move from Gin....

Well,what happened next?
Hitsu started to freeze Gin arm....till we arrive to this point:
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/132/10/
What I see here,is a "what a nuisance brat u r"....Hitsu was lucky that Gin said the release command and shooted so slow that he could dodge....and note what happen next....
Gin aimed 3 point in one attack:
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/132/11/
_The ice on his arm
_Hitsu's eye
_Hinamori
Note: the sword was extending so slow that he could give a speech in the meanwhile and Matsumoto could step in.(almost breakin her sword)If he shoot they way he did with Hiyori u know that the result would be totally different....

Referring to Hitsu...this is not the way a "winner" would talk...
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/133/04/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/133/05/
Referring to Gin...this is not the way a "looser" would talk...

But we know it already,in Hitsu's fans eyes,he always wins hands down,without actually "killing/damage his opponent".....Gin cough cough......Halibel cough cough....Luppi is not worth anything,and I don't think there's more on this argument...



Can u prove it that he is more experienced and more skillful??If we were talkin about anyone else in SS I would agree...but in this case it's different.For thousands reasons...
beside Gin being a genius,Hitsu surpassing Shunsui in 100 years ecc....ecc.....with Gin/Aizen/Tousen the EXPERIENCE speech can't work.
These guys didn't randomly fight like in SS(a captain class shinigami would be called to fight seriously against who???maybe a VL if he is lucky,or a group of adjuchas...once every God only knows how many years/decades).
Aizen/Gin Tousen spent the last hundreds years submitting/seekin/fighting strong hollows in HM...what most of the captain luckily meet once every year,they more/more often...

And well,it's quite paradoxhal that u say "nothing says that Aizen is stronger then Shunsui cause he has an hax shikai",2 seconds later u say "Shunsui shikai is extremely powerful,Gin's sword just goes straight,it must not be a problem given Shunsui speed..."......r u serious??so,if we r talkin about Shunsui,it's right to include his shikai,if we r talkin about Aizen,it is not??PLZzZZzZZzzzz...
Well,I give u a couple of news:
1)Gin's sword doesn't necessarily go straight
ex.
Hiyori would have been pierced and not cutted.
Many others times we have seen the sword bend...but ok,u like to ignore things...
2)If really his sword was so simple to avoid/beat,he wouldn't be praised by the entirety of SS as a GENIUS.....but it's ok if u want to "INFER" that the guy is such a GODLIKE in "kidou"/"movements"/"hand-to hand" that his swords skill aren't necessary.....


As many have pointed out,we don't have enough element and we can only speculate.Surely it would be an hell of a fight,but saying that one can destroy the other with ease,is totally silly at the moment.

Last question.....why should Kubo create Aizen's right hand as a weakling???
In all manga,in all stories,the right hand of the main villain stands always at "THE TOP" .
_Compared to the protagonist...."slighly below"
_Compared to GOOD GUYS HEADS / PROTAGONIST RIGHT HAND MAN "on par/slightly below-above".....depending from the story.

Usually the right hand man of the villain,is the cruel character.Often used as a "last" stepping stone to make the protagonist stronger or his right-hand man the strongest after him and the main antagonist.
ur post was way too long and filled w/ too much bs for me to take time to read the whole thing. But from what I have read it is clear that you HATe hitsu, but this match isn't gin vs hitsu

Aizen's only followers in SS are gin and tousen. If you think there is someone else then you and i are reading completely different stories

Gin's calm face is his persona. Him still smiling in a fight does not mean he was not taking it seriously. Even being caught w/ a sword to his throat he was calm. Truth is, hitsu outmaneuvered him. Go ahead and deny manga evidence. it just shows how ignorant you are.

As for shunsui being on a level w/ aizen. He dominated the 1st espada. Of course we aren't going to see him stop ichigo w/ one finger or stop komomoura b/c that situation is impossible in this story. Stop making up shit in hopes of supporting your claims. You can't prove that aizen is stronger than shunsui just like I can't prove that shunsui is stronger. But from what the manga has shown, shunsui is a powerful fighter. Unohana states that the only thing that is stopping them from attacking aizen is b/c they were caught by his illusions, not by his strength.

You can't compare hitsu's genius to gin's b/c it doesn't work that way. There are different levels of genius. Genius is a broad term. What shunsui sd about hitsu does not apply to gin.

Random101
November 22, 2009, 11:14 PM
I don´t think killing a captain and letting out a vice-captain from your own division from jail have the same magnitude of consequence. Besides, two other vice-captains broke out at the same time, so it wouldn't be much of big deal. The only one screaming bloody murder was Toshiro but I doubt anybody from the captains will give him any creed.
Killing a captain when clearly that captain was going out of his way to attack/kill him first is somewhat justifiable given the circumstances of that meeting. Granted it doesn't help his case remotely as it would raise a few eyebrows, but at that point his case was already out the window due to his prior actions, and thus even attempting to use such logic as a point is stupid.

Similarly the one other vice captain who broke out broke out via her own power, there's no justifying his actions there with that. At all. I mean really, that'd be akin to saying two people committed a murder at the same time, thus it's not that big a deal. That logic doesn't fly, remotely.

The issue remains that for no adequate reason Gin released Kira from his detainment without orders, this AFTER he's already in hot water with Yamamoto for the being out of his jurisdiction thing, deliberately leaving behind evidence that he did so. Ergo, his actions remain incredibly stupid.

Sinedd
November 23, 2009, 08:06 AM
Killing a captain when clearly that captain was going out of his way to attack/kill him first is somewhat justifiable given the circumstances of that meeting. Granted it doesn't help his case remotely as it would raise a few eyebrows, but at that point his case was already out the window due to his prior actions, and thus even attempting to use such logic as a point is stupid.

Similarly the one other vice captain who broke out broke out via her own power, there's no justifying his actions there with that. At all. I mean really, that'd be akin to saying two people committed a murder at the same time, thus it's not that big a deal. That logic doesn't fly, remotely.

The issue remains that for no adequate reason Gin released Kira from his detainment without orders, this AFTER he's already in hot water with Yamamoto for the being out of his jurisdiction thing, deliberately leaving behind evidence that he did so. Ergo, his actions remain incredibly stupid.

Well, after all probably the goal was to draw suspicion to himself so Aizen can work on his plan and so on. In that scenario, even if the jail Gin Aizen can break him out later or just put another guy inside the cell and disguise him as Gin...

Yans86
November 23, 2009, 11:22 AM
ur post was way too long and filled w/ too much bs for me to take time to read the whole thing. But from what I have read it is clear that you HATe hitsu, but this match isn't gin vs hitsu

Aizen's only followers in SS are gin and tousen. If you think there is someone else then you and i are reading completely different stories

Gin's calm face is his persona. Him still smiling in a fight does not mean he was not taking it seriously. Even being caught w/ a sword to his throat he was calm. Truth is, hitsu outmaneuvered him. Go ahead and deny manga evidence. it just shows how ignorant you are.

As for shunsui being on a level w/ aizen. He dominated the 1st espada. Of course we aren't going to see him stop ichigo w/ one finger or stop komomoura b/c that situation is impossible in this story. Stop making up shit in hopes of supporting your claims. You can't prove that aizen is stronger than shunsui just like I can't prove that shunsui is stronger. But from what the manga has shown, shunsui is a powerful fighter. Unohana states that the only thing that is stopping them from attacking aizen is b/c they were caught by his illusions, not by his strength.

You can't compare hitsu's genius to gin's b/c it doesn't work that way. There are different levels of genius. Genius is a broad term. What shunsui sd about hitsu does not apply to gin.

Ah ah ah ah ah ah ah!!!!!!!!still talking???u r the one that putted Gin on inferior level compared to Hitsu....lol

Where did I say that "I THINK" that Aizen have other followers???don't put words in my mouth that I never used,TY!!!go back and read your post: "OF COURSE HE HAD TO SETTLE WITH GIN BECAUSE HE REALLY HAD NO ONE LEFT IN SS THAT WOULD SUPPORT HIM ASIDE FROM TOUSEN".......do u remember Aizen going around recruiting people????he just took the ones useful to him....a bloodlust killer,and an "extremist loyal follower".Both useful,without enough "consciousness" to create problems,but at the same time enough talented/strong to beat the crap out of a captain......

I explained,exactly what happened in Hitsu vs Gin....u can keep on saying this s**t about Hitsu,but then answer my question instead of saying "MANGA here,manga there..."......it's YOUR PROBLEM if your reading ability goes only on what u can see!!!if u can't analyze fights/battle/events in more depth according to all the strategies and objective the different parties have,then I don't have to keep answering u.
Only kids read to such a low level.....

"gin calm face here...." "gin calm face there..." "Gin had a calm face even with a sword to his throat"......even Tousen was calm lol

"Shunsui dominated 1st espada".....Lol too many times here!!!Should I even answer????just a two little note....PRIMERA wasn't even a VL,not saying a VL arrancar....Shunsui needed help to catch him.....Kubo "helped" a lot with CAPT butting in,wolves and 1000 ceros disappearing ecc....ecc....there wasn't a rule saying "STARK CAN use only his sword"...but they still did things in that way...if a slash is enhanced by Kyouraku's sword to that extent in both way.....what would have happened???....and well,I remeber him almost saying "BANKAI" before Ukitake helpin him with the crap "they r fightin 2 VS 1" lol
But well,if u like to use this fight to compare Aizen/Stark,u gotta have some problem....

"THEY CAN'T ATTACK AIZEN DUE TO HIS ILLUSION,NOT FOR HIS STRENGHT" lol!!and what r his illusion??aren't part of his power??Shunsui game is the same,Tousen's bankai is the same,Yumichika shikai is the same,SoiFon's is the same.They have their powers and those make part of their strenght.
But well,keep talkin nonsense.....

Did I compare their genius attitude???of course I did,but now I know that u can't read between the lines so I try to explain it clearer:
Beside the type of geniuses they are,with other people like Aizen/Ichigo/Mayuri/Urahara/Ishida(Mayuri's statement).All this guy have one thing in common:They stand above others throught talent.
What regulars achieves with efforts and years "to enhance a particular lvl of fighting beside the technique used",this guys achieve in much less time.So is not a stretch to give the possibility to Gin to be on Shunsui lvl or stronger,overall considered the build up both character had.

Well,many of those things I answered also before in the other post,but I know that u like pinpoint particular words just to shout nonsense.You r annoying, so I won't bother answer u anymore.Do as u please...

juice88
November 23, 2009, 03:59 PM
Ok it may be hard to argue that gin is stronger than shunsui, even though i think he is. no matter what happened in the fight with hitsugaya or who really won; at the end of the fight gin made him choose between his own life and his best friend (if thats not a win i don't know what is). But aizen is definately stronger because shunsui did not just destroy the number 1 espada he had a very hard time in my eyes, and according to the manga aizen is stronger than all of the espada put together. I dont think it gets any more clearer than that

Random101
November 23, 2009, 10:30 PM
... Gin didn't make him choose. Like at all. Hitsugaya dodged the strike point blank, and after Gin let it go on, right towards Hinamori. There was no choice involved there, the situation just played out that way. Had Matsumoto not been there, and she'd been actually stabbed, the fact would remain that Hitsugaya would have him bound to that spot with the chain, and was already in good position to strike again, while Gin wouldn't easily be able to do anything with his already extended sword. And Hitsugaya would be pissed. That's how THAT situation played out. Granted though, that doesn't remotely tell us who is actually stronger given that battle was more situational that actual RAH POWAH, but I'd heavily doubt Gin would end up in a situation that bad for him were he on a similar level to Kyoraku.

vizardichigo
November 23, 2009, 11:16 PM
Have not seen enough of Gin to say, but i would say it would be a draw..I think that Gin in the past 100 years has reached Shunsui's level...So it would be a stalemate..This is just a guess with no facts but its just my hunch..

Raizen
November 24, 2009, 05:06 PM
Yans, I feel bad for you b/c no one takes you seriously.
You arguments are flawed and makes no sense. You assume just b/c gin is aizen's right hand man makes him automatically strong :notrust.
You are like one of sasuke fans, gushing for punishment and unable to make a good conversation w/

El Samurai Guapo
November 25, 2009, 12:16 AM
Yans, I feel bad for you b/c no one takes you seriously.
You arguments are flawed and makes no sense. You assume just b/c gin is aizen's right hand man makes him automatically strong :notrust.
You are like one of sasuke fans, gushing for punishment and unable to make a good conversation w/

I don't think it is a matter of nobody taking him seriously, it's more like his grammar is so bad this his posts are almost incomprehensible.

Yans86
November 25, 2009, 08:41 AM
I don't think it is a matter of nobody taking him seriously, it's more like his grammar is so bad this his posts are almost incomprehensible.


Yans, I feel bad for you b/c no one takes you seriously.
You arguments are flawed and makes no sense. You assume just b/c gin is aizen's right hand man makes him automatically strong :notrust.
You are like one of sasuke fans, gushing for punishment and unable to make a good conversation w/

Sorry if I'm italian.
@Raizen
Why don't u try writing in italian,french or spanish.....ops.....u can't......I feel sorry for u,and well,there are guys that share opinions close to mine in saying that Gin,can be equal or superior to Shunsui,but NO WAY IN HELL he is inferior to Hitsugaya.

Anyway,thx for your pearls,arguing with disrespectful ignorant like u is always funny.I really feel pity for you....overall cause we r arguing about a manga we r all enjoyin,and not real problems.........

Trotter
November 25, 2009, 09:13 AM
Going from what we know, not from speculation, possibilities and all that jazz, it's obvious Shunsui wins. He's performed perfectly in battle, even when he isn't serious, and though Gin hasn't been serious this whole time either he should be treated as a rather deadly opponent. However given stats and that Shunsui, unlike Gin, has mastered several arts, has been a Captain for god knows how long, and seems to be a master of sneaky attacks I believe he would win.

Plus, if all Shunsui has to do is step on your shadow to stab you through the heart, there's not much Gin could do.

Raizen
November 25, 2009, 11:33 AM
Sorry if I'm italian.
@Raizen
Why don't u try writing in italian,french or spanish.....ops.....u can't......I feel sorry for u,and well,there are guys that share opinions close to mine in saying that Gin,can be equal or superior to Shunsui,but NO WAY IN HELL he is inferior to Hitsugaya.

Anyway,thx for your pearls,arguing with disrespectful ignorant like u is always funny.I really feel pity for you....overall cause we r arguing about a manga we r all enjoyin,and not real problems.........
First off, you aren't the only one that knows multiple language. Sorry to be break that to you. I do too.

Secondly, a "disrespectful and ignorant person". You are the one that started with the blatant and scurrilous post. It is not hard to make a point without sounding like an asshole. If you don't want someone to reciprocate and go at you, then don't act the way you do. You may be older then me, but you are still clearly immature. If you talked that way to other people on the internet, I wonder how arrogant you are in real life.

back-on-topic: sO far in the manga, shikai hitsu was getting the edge on shikai gin. Gin's shikai was nothing but a straight attack, but with powerful force. Hitsu not only caught gin's arm in his chain, but he also froze it. GIn had to cheap shot hinamori to get away.
Shunsui, has shown that his shikai can beat even the strongest of opponents. Yes starkks was very powerful. Based on that, shunsui would clearly beat gin.

All the opposition has to offer is that b/c gin is aizen's right man he has to be extremely powerful. Yes that could be true but currently is nothing more than an assumptions. In scenarios such as this, you can't use "maybe", "i think", "possibly". You have to go with what the manga provides and what it has shown is that gin is inferior

En Yang Ji
November 25, 2009, 12:22 PM
The problem with going just what we've seen, is Gin hasn't shown that much.

Gin has shown probably about 3% of his ability
Shunsui has probably shown 10%

Gin has never appeared serious in battle and he could of possibly killed Hitsu when he used his shikai.

If Gin just released his shikai without saying the command, Hitsu probably wouldn't have enough time to dodge. When Gin did say the command and Hitsu dodged it before it was around a centimeter away.

Shunsui on the other hand did have a serious battle with his shikai. With the way things look Shunsui would win, still that doesn't mean he's stronger. When we seen so little, it would be unfair to go just on feats and it wouldn't give us an accurate idea of who is stronger.

Random101
November 25, 2009, 01:50 PM
Uh what? Hitsugaya dodged the thing a fraction away from his eye. He didn't need all that much time to dodge, he reacted more to the blade itself than anything, given he couldn't possibly have known where the blade would come from till it pierced through Gin's cloak, after said command was uttered.

Further, throwing down random percentages is stunningly stupid given that the only way you can come up with those is just making them up on the spot. Assuming Gin's showed the full capabilties of his shikai thus far, sub par as it may be considering ALL captains should be able to do that, he's shown roughly the same amount of his ability as Kyoraku. Actually probably quite a bit less given the guy probably has more games he can 'play'. And neither have shown anything to do with their bankai's, and we've got the stats on both of them. From what has been shown, Gin loses. He'd have to have a rather broken bankai to deal with Kyoraku at all, which admittedly is NOT out of the realm of possibility, though it's assuming quite a bit to use that as the basis. Particularly when Kyoraku's could be just as broken.

En Yang Ji
November 25, 2009, 02:08 PM
- Saying the command would let Hitsu know Gin's about to attack and to be on guard for it.

- I don't how much of their abilities they have shown, I just wanted to make a comparision of the amount Shunsui's ability we've seen with Gin's.

- Shunsui had a serious battle with Starrk. Gin and Hitsu had a short skirmish.

Random101
November 25, 2009, 02:37 PM
-Would still end up with the same thing of blade to the eye and subsequently it being dodged. The command wasn't the point to be on guard for, no matter how you look at it. That the blade was concealed and could have come from any angle, was in close range to the face already screws over such a suggestion, as those factors hurt any kind of reaction time considerably, yet it was still easily dodged.

-Is still making stuff up on the spot.

-Actually no. Kyoraku's 'serious fight' was a one chapter skirmish, same as this. Prior to that was him playing around/Ukitake interfering/Wonderwiess interrupting/sword being a bitch. Granted more of actual fighting, sure, but all he revealed was shikai, same as Gin. Result is still the same.

En Yang Ji
November 25, 2009, 02:51 PM
-Would still end up with the same thing of blade to the eye and subsequently it being dodged. The command wasn't the point to be on guard for, no matter how you look at it. That the blade was concealed and could have come from any angle, was in close range to the face already screws over such a suggestion, as those factors hurt any kind of reaction time considerably, yet it was still easily dodged.

-Is still making stuff up on the spot.

-Actually no. Kyoraku's 'serious fight' was a one chapter skirmish, same as this. Prior to that was him playing around/Ukitake interfering/Wonderwiess interrupting/sword being a bitch. Granted more of actual fighting, sure, but all he revealed was shikai, same as Gin. Result is still the same.

- Imo, It wasn't easily dodged. The sword was around a millimeter from his eye. Hitsu has no reason to dodge so late if he could of dodged sooner. Knowing that Gin is about to attack and the nature of the attack is way better than not knowing at all. Hitsu barely dodged it.

- Gin and Hitsu's fight didn't last a whole chapter. Only 11 pages and the only time Gin attacked was at the end.

- The only thing we have to go on for Gin is his shikai ability. His ability in hoho, zanjutsu, kido, hakuda is unknown. We don't even know if that his only shikai ability.

Random101
November 25, 2009, 05:22 PM
-Yes it was. Thing moves damn fast, catching Byakuya mid shunpo mind, though granted he was going to save Rukia, and went straight for his eye under the cover of the cloak, meaning Hitsugaya had no clue where it would be coming from at all till it was WAY to close for comfort. The reason it was dodged so late was that it was RIGHT THERE by the time he knew where it would be.

-Same with Kyoraku's really. Most of that was Stark's shenanigans and Kyoraku dodging. Not to mention mass amounts of conversation with no action whatsoever going on. Granted, he has a LITTLE more, but again, it's not by much. Not NEARLY enough to say that Gin has only a third of his ability revealed as him, particularly when pretty much the ONLY sure thing we have is both their shikai's.

-Same with Kyoraku, again. That's all we have on him, shikai ability, and we are definitely not sure those are the only games. MAYBE a little Zanjutsu from him, but even that was hardly much.

Lunatic Scream
November 25, 2009, 05:50 PM
In general, I give fights like this to the senior captains. I would give Shunsui the victory, his shikai is absolutely ridiculous. Gin's certainly as cunning as Shunsui, but since Shunsui knows his shikai completely, he's going to come out on top. I can't really phrase it any other way except to say that Shunsui's shikai forces the opponent to play on his terms. It's a powerful advantage.

Additionally, Shunsui and Gin's shikais haven't been fully explained. Shunsui could have more games, and even if he doesn't, his battle with Starrk had so many unanswered questions (Could Starrk not use his guns/wolves? To what measure does the shadow game extend, does he have no say over the games?), Gin's shikai may just be an extending sword, but I am not too sure that's all it is.

HOWEVER, since it looks like Gin may have a hollow mask, this match may become a lot closer than I expect.

En Yang Ji
November 25, 2009, 06:23 PM
-Yes it was. Thing moves damn fast, catching Byakuya mid shunpo mind, though granted he was going to save Rukia, and went straight for his eye under the cover of the cloak, meaning Hitsugaya had no clue where it would be coming from at all till it was WAY to close for comfort. The reason it was dodged so late was that it was RIGHT THERE by the time he knew where it would be.

-Same with Kyoraku's really. Most of that was Stark's shenanigans and Kyoraku dodging. Not to mention mass amounts of conversation with no action whatsoever going on. Granted, he has a LITTLE more, but again, it's not by much. Not NEARLY enough to say that Gin has only a third of his ability revealed as him, particularly when pretty much the ONLY sure thing we have is both their shikai's.

-Same with Kyoraku, again. That's all we have on him, shikai ability, and we are definitely not sure those are the only games. MAYBE a little Zanjutsu from him, but even that was hardly much.

- That's one interpretation, but there's no guarantee your right. There's other interpretations.

- Shunsui had a lot more action in his battles. Starrk was able to cut Shunsui on the back, giving him a serious wound. Gin only attacked once and Hitsugaya was serious from the beginning.

- I just to wanted show Shunsui has showed more than Gin has.

- We have a rough idea of how good Shunsui is with Zanjutsu from Starrks comments and his battles with him. Also Yammato gave us a rough idea about how good Shunsui was with hoho. We have nothing on Gin.

Random101
November 25, 2009, 07:30 PM
-For giggles I'll accept that, but that in itself means that it's not valid as an outright point for proof. Certainly viable for an argument I suppose, but understand that's not going to fly with everyone.

-Barely more frankly. At the end of both stages of that battle, he's shown up to this point in actual battle was a perchance for dodging and his shikai ability. Gin is the same. More in the sense that he has more shikai abilties than Gin, been in actual combat than Gin, but at the end of the day that still doesn't change the fact that it's still his shikai, and that's the only real thing he's shown. Which is exactly the same as Gin. There's no getting overall more here when overall both showed the exact same freaking thing.

-Kyoraku can go really far in a single step, and can switch sword hands around, able to at the very least alter the skill between them. That's nice. Does that tell us his skill at all in using them in battle compared to other people? No. Does that in itself show how good Shunsui is AT ALL with Zanjutsu or hoho? No. Does that tell us anything at all about his actual strength? No. SKILL sure with one specific aspect of those arts, Distance and the fact that he favors two blades, but that does not tell us anything about his actual fighting strength. I mean hell, I could tell you more with Gin's perchance for backstabs and the fact that Hitsugaya managed to outmaneuver him in their fight if we wanted to compare something actually tangible for a scale or particular style.Your point is meandering right now.

Now we DO in fact have a scale for speed beyond comments that require you to guesstimate what that actually means in the actual scale, in the databooks if we go for Hoho and how they actually compare between the two. Shunsui trumps Gin, plain and simple.

Sinedd
November 25, 2009, 08:10 PM
-Kyoraku can go really far in a single step, and can switch sword hands around, able to at the very least alter the skill between them. That's nice. Does that tell us his skill at all in using them in battle compared to other people? No. Does that in itself show how good Shunsui is AT ALL with Zanjutsu or hoho? No. Does that tell us anything at all about his actual strength? No. SKILL sure with one specific aspect of those arts, Distance and the fact that he favors two blades, but that does not tell us anything about his actual fighting strength. I mean hell, I could tell you more with Gin's perchance for backstabs and the fact that Hitsugaya managed to outmaneuver him in their fight if we wanted to compare something actually tangible for a scale or particular style.Your point is meandering right now.

Gin's fight with Hitsugaya was a plot fight much like Ichigo's with Kenpachi or Byakuya. It shouldn't be really used as a barometer IMO.

Raizen
November 25, 2009, 08:27 PM
Gin's fight with Hitsugaya was a plot fight much like Ichigo's with Kenpachi or Byakuya. It shouldn't be really used as a barometer IMO.
It doesn't matter, it still showed that hitsu outmaneuvered gin. Saying statements like that are weak. We can't just deny manga evidence b/c we don't like it

Random101
November 25, 2009, 08:44 PM
Gin's fight with Hitsugaya was a plot fight much like Ichigo's with Kenpachi or Byakuya. It shouldn't be really used as a barometer IMO.
Frankly ALL fights are plot fights once we get right down to it. Particularly in Bleach. And really once we go down that route the scale makes no sense whatsoever.

En Yang Ji
November 25, 2009, 08:47 PM
-For giggles I'll accept that, but that in itself means that it's not valid as an outright point for proof. Certainly viable for an argument I suppose, but understand that's not going to fly with everyone.

-Barely more frankly. At the end of both stages of that battle, he's shown up to this point in actual battle was a perchance for dodging and his shikai ability. Gin is the same. More in the sense that he has more shikai abilties than Gin, been in actual combat than Gin, but at the end of the day that still doesn't change the fact that it's still his shikai, and that's the only real thing he's shown. Which is exactly the same as Gin. There's no getting overall more here when overall both showed the exact same freaking thing.

-Kyoraku can go really far in a single step, and can switch sword hands around, able to at the very least alter the skill between them. That's nice. Does that tell us his skill at all in using them in battle compared to other people? No. Does that in itself show how good Shunsui is AT ALL with Zanjutsu or hoho? No. Does that tell us anything at all about his actual strength? No. SKILL sure with one specific aspect of those arts, Distance and the fact that he favors two blades, but that does not tell us anything about his actual fighting strength. I mean hell, I could tell you more with Gin's perchance for backstabs and the fact that Hitsugaya managed to outmaneuver him in their fight if we wanted to compare something actually tangible for a scale or particular style.Your point is meandering right now.

Now we DO in fact have a scale for speed beyond comments that require you to guesstimate what that actually means in the actual scale, in the databooks if we go for Hoho and how they actually compare between the two. Shunsui trumps Gin, plain and simple.

- Shunsui showed more of what he was capable of. Gin used one attack at the end of the battle. There absolutely nothing on Gin other than his shikai ability.

- Even if they did show the same amount, there is no way you can prove Shunsui is definitely stronger than Gin.

- Gin could have possibly killed him with his shikai.

- No we don't have a scale for speed using the DB's. Gin's stats just show how much of his potential he reached in that area. Same with Shunsui. The stats are not meant to be used to compare shinigami.

Sinedd
November 25, 2009, 09:09 PM
It doesn't matter, it still showed that hitsu outmaneuvered gin. Saying statements like that are weak. We can't just deny manga evidence b/c we don't like it

He outmaneuvered him, true. But he was outmaneuvered in turn. So, I wouldn't really say its a one-sided situation.


Frankly ALL fights are plot fights once we get right down to it. Particularly in Bleach. And really once we go down that route the scale makes no sense whatsoever.

True. However, this wasn't really a full fight. It just put events in motion. Thats why I said I consider it more as plot driven or better yet plot driver.

Random101
November 25, 2009, 11:12 PM
- Shunsui showed more of what he was capable of. Gin used one attack at the end of the battle. There absolutely nothing on Gin other than his shikai ability.

- Even if they did show the same amount, there is no way you can prove Shunsui is definitely stronger than Gin.

- Gin could have possibly killed him with his shikai.

- No we don't have a scale for speed using the DB's. Gin's stats just show how much of his potential he reached in that area. Same with Shunsui. The stats are not meant to be used to compare shinigami.
-He has one attack far as we know with his shikai. That's the point. They showed pretty much the same amount.

- While technically true, as this series is absolutely retarded with who can beat who, and INDEED I do agree that it's entirely possible that Gin's Bankai could totally make up for his worthless shikai, as it stands from what we currently know, Kyoraku having an edge is only natural.

-Yeah he definitely could have. If it hit. Problem is it is entirely possible to dodge it point blank from an angle and obstruction that give the one who has to dodge it a complete disadvantage in that regard.

-Nowhere does it say, remotely, that the stats are based on potential in the databook. No one has sourced this claim at all when it is brought up, and there is literally no point of putting potential stats in a freaking databook. That's just inane. Yamamoto alone disproves this with his health stat. Unless he literally has a way to increase his physical endurance considerably which, as the explanation next to his stats states, has deteriorated due to age, his stat in that category would not have decreased at all, because his overall maximum potential would have remained the same. Unless you can source where it's stated that the stats are based on potential in the databook, it's like what people tried to claim of the stats in Naruto, a piss poor unsupported explanation for why some of the comparative stats are different than people's own perception of the scale.


He outmaneuvered him, true. But he was outmaneuvered in turn. So, I wouldn't really say its a one-sided situation.
Had Hinamori been stabbed, Gin's sword would have been extended, Hitsugaya would still have him in the chain, and was in good position to slash him in half. Matsumoto frankly saved him in that scenario, as that allowed him to be released and subsequently escape. Now, not nearly enough to tell in all honestly who is really stronger, that I agree with, but in terms of who ended up in the better position at the end there in that skirmish, Hitsugaya was it without a doubt.

El Samurai Guapo
November 26, 2009, 02:54 PM
Had Hinamori been stabbed, Gin's sword would have been extended, Hitsugaya would still have him in the chain, and was in good position to slash him in half. Matsumoto frankly saved him in that scenario, as that allowed him to be released and subsequently escape. Now, not nearly enough to tell in all honestly who is really stronger, that I agree with, but in terms of who ended up in the better position at the end there in that skirmish, Hitsugaya was it without a doubt.

This is interesting because we currently have Saijin and Shuuhei vs. Kaname, and possible Shinji vs. Sousuke. I'd say that Toushirou (with perhaps Izuru) would be the likely contender(s) to go against Gin.

In other words, we may be seeing a rematch in the future.

Rainl
November 26, 2009, 04:51 PM
Gin vs Shunsui? Do you honestly want to put Gin, who's enshrouded in pure white clothing against Shunsui? There's nothing preventing Shunsui from simply one-hitting him. Shunsui has shown superior battle-intellect, superior speed, and swordsmanship than Gin has.

Gin, will not hit Shunsui with that elongated blade, this isn't mentioning the fact that Shunsui still has 'Kage Oni' to essentially mask his presence within shadows. It doesn't matter what Gin does if he doesn't even know Shunsui's location. No.

Sit back and look at this match. It's terribly one-sided. Let go of the hype. Use feats and you'll see that Shunsui would be able to easily beat him in a one-on-one confrontation. Gin has absolutely nothing to counter him. Shunsui's shikai abilities are just too ridiculous.

Saying Gin can win is simply fanboyism since you can't honestly sit here and provide any feats for him to suggest he's even in Shunsui's league. Bottom line.

En Yang Ji
November 26, 2009, 05:12 PM
We have seen nothing from Gin. There's barely anything to compare. Most of what we have for Gin is hype.

Raizen
November 26, 2009, 08:26 PM
He outmaneuvered him, true. But he was outmaneuvered in turn. So, I wouldn't really say its a one-sided situation.



True. However, this wasn't really a full fight. It just put events in motion. Thats why I said I consider it more as plot driven or better yet plot driver.
How was hitsu outmaneuvered exactly? :blink. He had gin in the perfect position to strike. GIn tried to counter but failed and ended up aiming at hinamori. Had hinamori not been there, gin would have left that battle w/ some very huge injuries

Sinedd
November 27, 2009, 07:35 AM
How was hitsu outmaneuvered exactly? :blink. He had gin in the perfect position to strike. GIn tried to counter but failed and ended up aiming at hinamori. Had hinamori not been there, gin would have left that battle w/ some very huge injuries

While what could have happened can be only speculated, Gin used the resources of his environment perfectly to control Toshiro's actions. I'm not saying its not unfair fighting but its still quite good from tactical perspective.

zimbardo
November 27, 2009, 08:54 AM
I am still unsure that Hitsuguya actually did outmanoeuvre Gin. Don't you think it is a bit weird how when outmanoeuvring him he ended up right in line with Hinamori?
I think it is quite possible Gin knew that Hitsuguya would value Hinamori's life enough to stop fighting if she was threatened, therefore he could have orchestrated a situation where Hitsuguya would have to decide to either protect her or continue to fight Gin.
As Sinedd says, I think Gin managed to perfectly control Hitsuguyas actions to stop what he considered to be a pointless conflict. Therefore the fight may have shown us nothing of Gin's skill in combat.

Xerneas
November 27, 2009, 12:50 PM
Like someone said before, all geniuses are not created equal. I seriously doubt Gin is stronger than Shunsui just because of his statement in regards to Hitsu. Hitsugaya's zanpakuto is a hell of a lot better than Gin's for starters, from what we've seen so far. I think he's more talented than Gin period, so no...at best, Gin is between Byakuya and Shunsui level. Seems he might be a Vizard now though but I don't know how much that changes things. The senior Captains just seem to be in another league altogether that only Aizen can match.

Yans86
November 28, 2009, 09:59 AM
All this speech around shikai's really doesn't help....if we compare Gin's shikai to all the shikai around there,just a normal sword would be "inferior" isn't it?even between the VC's(VC's lvl) there's not a shikai that u would rate "weaker" then his....well,maybe Ikkaku's.....

The other speech....the sword just extend,it's a total "bulls**t"....r u serious guys???if that was the case,Hiyori would have been pierced.....but well,Gin swinged the sword nad she was cut in half......what if he swinged it down while Hitsu was almost on the ground,and still keepin the shot move to Hinamori???(u can't say he can't,cause we have seen already his sword "bend" in more points"....

Havin the simpliest sword,and still being a captain,being considered/proved to be a "genius",being Aizen's VC(not VC lvl,cause Tousen had already bankai back then),are not meangless thing,like someone would like to pass it.....not saying that propably due to all these things,is zanjutsu can be considered as one of the highest...

Random101
November 28, 2009, 02:06 PM
He swung the sword and she was cut in half. Duh. There were no obstructions in the way, and extended or not, stupid ability or not, it's still a freaking sword. And of course he did it from behind without notice, because that's what he's good at. Swing down though? Not a chance in such a time frame that would save him from at least some damage, had it hit Hinamori of course. Obstructions such as the building and her body would slow it down, probably not much, but enough that Hitsugaya, who already dodged it point blank while extending should be able to, I don't know, move out from under it, possibly while swinging his own sword around to slice Gin. Or hell, slicing through Gin to Block the blade with his own sword. Or hell, just lifting up the chain and blocking with that while slashing. Extremely long weapons are a supreme disadvantage in close quarters.

This is beyond the point however. I'd definitely agree that the real results of a battle between those two are NOWHERE NEAR easy to tell from that brief scuffle. However we are comparing Gin to a guy who is easily one of the top 5 captains, has a SUPREMELY better shikai ability than him, far more experience, and is heavily unlikely to land himself in such a situation. Gin has, at most, hype from fans which not everyone buys into. Particularly since most base it on Gin being a prodigy like Hitsugaya. Logically speaking, even factoring in hype, as Kyoraku has a hell of a lot himself, Kyoraku should by all means win with the information we currently know. Granted this ain't a sure thing without knowing how broken their bankai's are, but defending such a point without some bias to the hype in that regard is pretty hard (Not a bad thing in itself, but it's good to be aware of it).

Sinedd
November 28, 2009, 02:41 PM
He swung the sword and she was cut in half. Duh. There were no obstructions in the way, and extended or not, stupid ability or not, it's still a freaking sword. And of course he did it from behind without notice, because that's what he's good at. Swing down though? Not a chance in such a time frame that would save him from at least some damage, had it hit Hinamori of course. Obstructions such as the building and her body would slow it down, probably not much, but enough that Hitsugaya, who already dodged it point blank while extending should be able to, I don't know, move out from under it, possibly while swinging his own sword around to slice Gin. Or hell, slicing through Gin to Block the blade with his own sword. Or hell, just lifting up the chain and blocking with that while slashing. Extremely long weapons are a supreme disadvantage in close quarters.

This is beyond the point however. I'd definitely agree that the real results of a battle between those two are NOWHERE NEAR easy to tell from that brief scuffle. However we are comparing Gin to a guy who is easily one of the top 5 captains, has a SUPREMELY better shikai ability than him, far more experience, and is heavily unlikely to land himself in such a situation. Gin has, at most, hype from fans which not everyone buys into. Particularly since most base it on Gin being a prodigy like Hitsugaya. Logically speaking, even factoring in hype, as Kyoraku has a hell of a lot himself, Kyoraku should by all means win with the information we currently know. Granted this ain't a sure thing without knowing how broken their bankai's are, but defending such a point without some bias to the hype in that regard is pretty hard (Not a bad thing in itself, but it's good to be aware of it).

I agree with your arguments. However, I think if Gin has or will have a mask, that will somewhat shorten the gap of power between him and Shunsui.

Random101
November 28, 2009, 07:11 PM
Possibly. I certainly wouldn't throw it out, but the current track records for Vizards ain't really looking good, most especially if they wish to remain in control. Ichigo being the most prominent case, but the kicker at this point is the actual vizards themselves.

DARK
November 28, 2009, 11:08 PM
What I find more astonishing in Shunsui is that he is supposed to be a Kido expert user and yet he hasn't used it once...this could mean that until now he never felt the need to do so...with Gin I think we could get to se Shunsui fighting seriously...

Shunsui has a Kido-type Zanpakuto. The fact that he used it to kill Starrk (Primera) is living proof that he is a Kido expert.
Simply by Katen Kyokatsu alone, I believe Shunsui can defeat Gin in battle. Didn't Yamamoto say that his students (Shunsui and Jushiro) were the strongest Captains past and present to their knowledge? So, unless Gin was "blessed" in the same manner as Tosen was by Aizen, I don't think the latter has any upper hands here.

robert_nsu
November 29, 2009, 12:29 AM
As long as Shunsui's swords can force Gin to "play" the game(s), he has an advantage and wins. That is my 2 cents. If his swords don't "play" with Gin, he loses. Gin can fight from any distance, so he has the advantage in that instance.