Susanoo Discussion

[Alexis]

A continuation from the discussion started in the Spoiler topic about Susanoo's Yata Mirror and Sword.


Let's move our conversations over to the Toshokan thread

Where did it show the Mirror adapting to Kirin's damage? I don't even see a mirror in sight to be honest.
The Databook mentioned that it can adapt it's elemental properties according to the element of the attack that hits it. So I was just saying that if it can adapt according to the element of the attack, it could possibly also adapt to the attack itself. Gaara's defense for example, can do so.

When Itachi walked towards Sasuke in the end, the shape of the transparent object surrounding him was different from the shield as we saw it before, so likewise it can be seen as the shield being inactive here as well after the danger was reverted.


haha do you read naruto at all or just zoom through the databook?
ARE you actually asking "what can susano do besides blocking?" lols ok im done with you there...plz read the manga, you'll find your answer

and i never mentioned the sword and mirror as seperate OBJECTS I NEVER EVEN GOT INTO THAT ARGUMENT lol i dont know why u bringin it up as a question to ask me i dont wanna get into that argument lol

still tough lols you actually think susano does nothing besides blocking? HAHA ok here ima help you a bit (oro+snakes vs itachi's susano)
Huh? o.o'

If you don't count the sword or mirror, Susanoo has shown no other ability of it's own besides supposedly blocking, if you assume the sword and mirror not being part of it.
The last part you mention was dealt with the Fuuinjutsu sword.

[gold349]

...............................
..............................................................................................

Orochimaru sought after it, but:

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/2750/swordv.png

"No wonder... No matter where he searched, he could never find it..."
"A spirit sword with no physical form..."
To me this sounds like Orochimaru was misinformed, and he never found it because it didn't have a physical form.

Think about it. If Orochimaru heard legends about the sword and mirror, but didn't hear that they were part of an MS jutsu, he could have believed that they were something he could obtained.

the sword of Tatsuke is a mystical item, Oro heard about it and searched for it with the intention of wielding/using it...
Oro "Itachi...you had it all along...?"
Zetsu "no wonder...no matter where he searched, he could never find it..."
Zetsu "Oro searched for it all his life"
"All that on top of his eye techniques...boy, Itachi is one tough dude".

Itachi having them was why Oro couldn't find/have it, how Zetsu put it its separate from the MS techs, IMO Oro creating separate dimensions, spitting out sword of kusanagi which he could stretch/shape/control at will (against sandaime and 4tail kyubi) he would have found a way to use it.


I meant that sussano don'thave this jug now which is totsuka sword so i think that this sword which sasuke is using now is not totsuka sword.
sorry for grammar mistakes.

agreed, that's also why I don't think it is that sword, totsuka sword hasn't a real form it was thrown out of the gourd, I think the gourd is important for that reason and Sasuke not showing it for me it says he isn't using that sword but another.

[Masterpice]

i hope this is not the totsuka sword. Sasuke gets too many super mega things in last 2 chapters. Also sasuke can use amaterasu as a shield so he can use it as a sword, but i like ashher's idea. I want Naruto to beat this fu**** EMO whit all thats "unbeatable" stuff.

[GPZrag]

Madar and his brother both had the MS, but do we know for sure if they had the same MS techniques?
Why people assume that there are different techniques?
Well for starters there is Kakashi. Although not an Uchiha, he still obtained the MS, and it is capable of a "God" technique. But it is different from Itachi's.
What Danzou did to the grunt shinobi's earlier may or may not be an MS technique. Same for Madara's teleportation.
At the same time we haven't seen anyone else use Itachi's techniques besides Sasuke. And remember that Madara said that Itachi "transfered" the techniques to Sasuke.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v188/Hikusaak/Pain/Mangekyoutransfer.jpg
but when sasuke used one of itachi's techniques his sharingan turned into Itachi's MS... dont you remember?... also Kishimoto explained in the last databook the mechaqnics of Kakashi's MS and the name of the technique, by the way it was stated that Kakahi's techniques was an exception unique to him... being an non uchiha and all.. there it is...

Kakashi's MS is revealed to have its own name, Kamui, aka "Power of Gods," and is an original doujutsu.

[jdw]

The wording Zetsu used could simply be because the sword has Fuuinjutsu properties. (Sealing technique) The other MS techniques are referred to as Doujutsu (eye techniques).
Zetsu also said "all of that on top of the doujutsu" even when refering only to the sword, so it sounds like he was talking about the sword and its properties.

But that bolded part I think is reading things a bit too literally, and not considering why Itachi had them.
Orochimaru spent his entire life searching for it, yet Itachi who is significantly younger than him, and with hardly any free time because of his status in the village, came across something like that?
That it's part of Susanoo seems like the simplest explanation to me why Oro never found it. And it also explains why Itachi has it at the same time.

Though you didn't address the part where I asked why Itachi would use the shield against a kunai if it was a separate technique? For what purpose, if Sasuke wouldn't obtain it? I'd like to hear if you have any plausible explanation.

If the shield is out already, and the price of life force or chakra or both is being paid already, and Itachi expects to die anyway, why not just block with the shield? There is no rule that he has to use the shield only to avoid strong attacks.

[toussaintac]

If the shield is out already, and the price of life force or chakra or both is being paid already, and Itachi expects to die anyway, why not just block with the shield? There is no rule that he has to use the shield only to avoid strong attacks.

Yeah, plus I doubt anyone would try and use a kunai if they saw something like Susanoo.

[GPZrag]

Yeah, plus I doubt anyone would try and use a kunai if they saw something like Susanoo.
better do that than spend chakra to test the technique

[gold349]

Well it seems that my late edit may have been overlooked, so just in case let me repeat, and I'd like to hear your take on this.

Remember that Itachi did all of this to help Sasuke. Showing him how the techniques can be used was probably part of it. If Susanoo by itself is able to deflect such massive attacks as Sasuke's just did, then why would Itachi use the "mirror" to deflect such weak attacks from Sasuke later if Sasuke would not obtain that ability?

If Susanoo by itself (if it supposedly is a separate technique from the mirror) can block so many attacks as Sasuke just did, why would Itachi use a "different" technique to block a kunai?

It only makes sense to me that it is the shield of Susanoo, or there would be no point in using it against Sasuke's Kunai if it is an "item" that Sasuke would not obtain.


Orochimaru sought after it, but:

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/2750/swordv.png

"No wonder... No matter where he searched, he could never find it..."
"A spirit sword with no physical form..."
To me this sounds like Orochimaru was misinformed, and he never found it because it didn't have a physical form.

Think about it. If Orochimaru heard legends about the sword and mirror, but didn't hear that they were part of an MS jutsu, he could have believed that they were something he could have obtained.


And the fact that Zetsu reflected over it's properties such as a blade without a physical form in the same sentence as he said "no wonder Orochimaru never found it..." also makes it very plausible that Orochimaru was misinformed.


And where did I say it was impossible? I said I find it unlikely. That's quite a difference.

And if you look at what Sasuke just blocked compared to the kunai Itachi blocked with the mirror, that it would be a stronger or separate defense seems unlikely to me.

you've answered the main part...showing Sasuke his techs also the separate items Itachi had sasono wield was IMO all part of his plan...to give Sasuke a taster and demonstration (its not something Itachi may have hoped for Sasuke not to use on his friends) IMO. Itachi was dieing, he was sick, sasono started going haywire, the longer he kept it up the bigger toll it was having on him. The sword was used to suck out Oro plus the CS mark and the mirror he used it on small kunai attacks as he needed it that moment...I mean he hadn't yet passed on his techs/power on to Sasuke and even if they was poxy compared to kirrin Itachi life was nearly over sasono wasn't going to save him, he had to use the mirror to block them in order for him to achieve the transfer he so worked hard for his life.

[toussaintac]

better do that than spend chakra to test the technique

lol...No, you wouldn't bother throwing a kunai at something like that unless it is an exloding kunai or something special.

[Alexis]

If the shield is out already, and the price of life force or chakra or both is being paid already, and Itachi expects to die anyway, why not just block with the shield? There is no rule that he has to use the shield only to avoid strong attacks.
All jutsu consume chakra. I see no point in using yet another ultimate defense on top of an already ultimate defense to block a kunai. Unless Susanoo's blocking properties and the shield are the same.


you've answered the main part...showing Sasuke his techs also the separate items Itachi had sasono wield was IMO all part of his plan...to give Sasuke a taster and demonstration (its not something Itachi may have hoped for Sasuke not to use on his friends) IMO. Itachi was dieing, he was sick, sasono started going haywire, the longer he kept it up the bigger toll it was having on him. The sword was used to suck out Oro plus the CS mark and the mirror he used it on small kunai attacks as he needed it that moment...I mean he hadn't yet passed on his techs/power on to Sasuke and even if they was poxy compared to kirrin Itachi life was nearly over sasono wasn't going to save him, he had to use the mirror to block them in order for him to achieve the transfer he so worked hard for his life.
Let me see if I understand what you're saying. You're saying that Itachi used an Ultimate Defense on top of his already default Ultimate Defense, to block a Kunai, in order to demonstrate to Sasuke a technique that Sasuke won't acquire? When he might as well have let Susanoo block it?

[gold349]

All jutsu consume chakra. I see no point in using yet another ultimate defense on top of an already ultimate defense to block a kunai. Unless Susanoo's blocking properties and the shield are the same.


Let me see if I understand what you're saying. You're saying that Itachi used an Ultimate Defense on top of his already default Ultimate Defense, to block a Kunai, in order to demonstrate to Sasuke a technique that Sasuke won't acquire? When he might as well have let Susanoo block it?

not at all, Itachi sasono is the ultimate defense and it can wield mystical artifacts/weapons as it feels. The whole battle was a front/demonstration of what Itachi was to give/leave Sasuke. Can you see Sasuke use the sword of totsuka or the mirror of yata?, I don't think so...was there reason for Itachi to use them on top of sasono? I don't think there was a real need for him to use the mirror but if I was to give reason it would be for demonstration purpose and to show all he has/can do...even if it was to block a string of exploding tags on kunai...Itachi's life was over, his sasono that sucks his life force to maintain the mirror was a perfect substitute for defending against the kunais so he is able to carry out his mission of transferring power/eye techs.

edit: I'm not denying Sasuke can have them, the sword and mirror, he has yet to show them, what he used to break pillar I don't think is the totsuka sword.

[Alexis]

There is always the possibility Susanoo was weakening whereas the shield was not.
So much that it can't even block a kunai? That seems like reaching.
Then what was the purpose of keeping Susanoo activated then if not to block? He was demonstrating it to Sasuke after all. Was he just showing off a jutsu that did nothing?


At any rate, if Susanoo already had the shield out, then he has no reason to not use it and just let explosive strike him.
Well like I said, all jutsu consume chakra. I doubt you can just activate a jutsu like that, and that it won't constantly consume chakra the more you use it.


Also, maybe the shield is just a fundamentally better defense than Susanoo himself. Like Susanoo has 9000 HP and Yata's mirror has 9999 + hero drink or other items, etc, lol.
So that means we haven't seen Itachi block anything with Susanoo? And yet Sasuke refers to it by the same Ultimate Defense remark? How likely does that sound...

[jdw]

So much that it can't even block a kunai? That seems like reaching.
Then what was the purpose of keeping Susanoo activated then if not to block? He was demonstrating it to Sasuke after all. Was he just showing off a jutsu that did nothing?


Well like I said, all jutsu consume chakra. I doubt you can just activate a jutsu like that, and that it wobn't constantly consume chakra the more you use it.


So that means we haven't seen Itachi block anything with Susanoo? And yet Sasuke refers to it by the same Ultimate Defennse remark?

The thing is, Susanoo has its own defensive properties. I do not think it is indestructible. The shield has its own defensive properties, but it was not said that the shield can be in all places at once. So it is basically like any armored knight/soldier carrying a shield. Layers of defenses are best when no single defense defeats everything. Basically, I see it this way:

Susanoo himself: protects all areas at once but is not absolute
Yata's Mirror: is absolute but cannot protect all areas at once.

I think Itachi's susanoo himself blocked kirin. It does not mean that kirin did not weaken Susanoo, thus the subsequent usage of Yata's mirror.

Also, who is to say that the price of chakra isn't paid up front to manifest the shield and the chakra paid reduces with attacks?

[Alexis]

Can you see Sasuke use the sword of totsuka or the mirror of yata?, I don't think so...
Do you mean literally see it in the pictures? Well dust was blocking the view, so obviously not. Same as when Itachi blocked Kirin. But it's there.

Susanoo's defense IS the mirror of Yata. That's just the name the technique has. I'm willing to bet on that.
Sasuke already showed Susanoo without the shield in the previous chapter against the Raikage.

The two Ultimate Defenses and all that doesn't make sense to me, and seems like people are reaching for the most complicated and answer when usually the simplest answer is the correct one.

Just like Naruto's "that jutsu" which we conveniently haven't seen in 5 years. It couldn't possibly be Naruto's fox cloak, even though every description of it fits, just because some people think it's not a "echnique" just like people now see the word "item" and start to over analyze, IMO.


edit: I'm not denying Sasuke can have them, the sword and mirror, he has yet to show them, what he used to break pillar I don't think is the totsuka sword.
It may not be the same sword, but if your claim on the mirror being a separate technique is true, then Itachi didn't block one single thing with Susanoo in his battle against Sasuke. And that I find to be too hard to believe.

[Alexis]

The thing is, Susanoo has its own defensive properties. I do not think it is indestructible. The shield has its own defensive properties, but it was not said that the shield can be in all places at once. So it is basically like any armored knight/soldier carrying a shield. Layers of defenses are best when no single defense defeats everything. Basically, I see it this way:

Susanoo himself: protects all areas at once but is not absolute
Yata's Mirror: is absolute but cannot protect all areas at once.

I think Itachi's susanoo himself blocked kirin. It does not mean that kirin did not weaken Susanoo, thus the subsequent usage of Yata's mirror.
http://h.imagehost.org/0599/Mittttt77.png

It clearly covers even Susanoo.


Also, who is to say that the price of chakra isn't paid up front to manifest the shield and the chakra paid reduces with attacks
That works for me, but that still makes it seem like a pointless thing to do.

[jdw]

http://h.imagehost.org/0599/Mittttt77.png

It clearly covers even Susanoo.


That works for me, but that still makes it a pointless thing to do.

That picture does not appear to provide 100% coverage.

Also, if Susanoo is out and has HP to be reduced and the mirror is out and has HP to be reduced, we cannot call usage of one or the other pointless unless we know how much HP remains in each, imo.

[◆ T.D.A ◆]

It may not be the same sword, but if your claim on the mirror being a separate technique is true, then Itachi didn't block one single thing with Susanoo in his battle against Sasuke. And that I find to be too hard to believe.

Huh? Itachi blocked Kirin without Yata's mirror.

[Alexis]

That picture does not appear to provide 100% coverage.
It still covers both Itachi and Susanoo from the attack though. Coincidence?
And it wasn't said that Susanoo covers from all angels at once. It was said that it deflects any attack that tries to strike it. Meaning that the shield could materialize where the attack hits it.


Huh? Itachi blocked Kirin without Yata's mirror.
I doubt that. Yata's mirror is simply the name of Susanoo's blocking abilities, as far as I'm concerned. But beyond that, if he used it to block a Kunai, I doubt he would not need it against Kirin.

The Databook also speaks of them as if they were part of Susanoo.


There are two doujutsu the use of which is allowed exclusively to those who have awakened to the clairvoyant eyes of Heaven, the Mangekyou Sharingan: Amaterasu, which speaks of Light and the material world, and Tsukuyomi, symbolizing the spiritual world and Darkness**. Only in them who hold both of those, dwells the power of the wild, rampaging god... Susanoo. The materialized chakra shapes itself after the wargod's commanding face and powerful physique, and the fierce spirit won't subside until the destruction of all the enemies in its line of sight...!!

There's a reason why Susanoo can boast perfect flawlessness in its offense and defense: the spiritual weapons it holds in both hands. The Sword of Totsuka* in its right hand, which will mow down any kind of enemy, and the Mirror of Yata*, upon which all attacks will bounce back. Substantial or spiritual, and then ninjutsu or physical attacks lose all kinds of significance before the god's efficacy.
No other reason was stated.
Why do you suppose the databook mentions not a single word about Susanoo's supposed "other" defense?
As far as the databook is concerned, Susanoo has no other defense besides the Mirror of Yata.

[jdw]

It still covers both Itachi and Susanoo from the attack though. Coincidence?
And it wasn't said that Susanoo covers from all angels at once. It was said that it deflects any attack that tries to strike it. Meaning that the shield could materialize where the attack hits it.

Susanoo was originally shown encasing Itachi, so I just assumed that he didn't have holes like Byakugan. Later it was shown encasing Sasuke, so I assumed it didn't have holes either. Truth be told, I cannot prove that it covers all angles. Susanoo "appears" to defend 100% coverage, where Yata's mirror seems to defend a certain area at a certain time, imo.

[lvarella]

I don't believe Susano'o and Yamata's Mirror are the same thing or are together. IMO they are different things and we will see it, it's not Susano'o defense.

[Alexis]

Susanoo was originally shown encasing Itachi, so I just assumed that he didn't have holes like Byakugan. Later it was shown encasing Sasuke, so I assumed it didn't have holes either. Truth be told, I cannot prove that it covers all angles. Susanoo "appears" to defend 100% coverage, where Yata's mirror seems to defend a certain area at a certain time, imo.
According to the Databook, the shield adapts after the attack.


-The Mirror of Yata
The substance-less spiritual shield. Endowed will all Nature Alterations, it changes its own attributes in response to the attacks it receives, making the jutsu ineffective.

It adapts it's elemental properties after the type of attack that hits it, so its also plausible it adapts its shape after the shape of the attack.

By the way, look at the databook info I posted in my previous post.
According to the databook, Susanoo has no other defense other than the mirror of Yata. At least, none is mentioned in the databook. At all.

[jdw]

By the way, look at the databook info I posted in my previous post.
According to the databook, Susanoo has no other defense other than the mirror of Yata. At least, none is mentioned in the databook, at all.
The databook saying that Susanoo boast perfect defense due to Yata's mirror does not permit a proper inference that Susanoo is defenseless without Yata's mirror. It permits the inference that any defense without Yata's mirror is less than perfect.

[Jadedmariner]

So if/when Sasuke fights Madara who gets control of Susanoo? I mean since it is likely they both can summon him and I'm going to assume there is only one Susanoo, which one gets to use him? Or is it first come first serve?

[Masterpice]

IMO
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/392/02/ sussano in the middle -bones.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/392/04-05/ sussano whit yata's mirror

[Jadedmariner]

The databook saying that Susanoo boast perfect defense due to Yata's mirror does not permit a proper inference that Susanoo is defenseless without Yata's mirror. It permits the inference that any defense without Yata's mirror is less than perfect.

And his defense was starting to rupture from the Raikage's attacks so the Mirror likely was not involved.

[bighawke5]

I doubt that. Yata's mirror is simply the name of Susanoo's blocking abilities, as far as I'm concerned. But beyond that, if he used it to block a Kunai, I doubt he would not need it against Kirin.

.

hmm here susano blocked with yata's mirror as seen on susano's left arm in front of itachi http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/393/06/

here susano protected itachi without yata's mirror as seen with just the bones of susano present just like wat sasuke had a few chapt ago (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/391/16/)

i think those two instances itachi was defended and in one there's no mirror....

[Alexis]

The databook saying that Susanoo boast perfect defense due to Yata's mirror does not permit a proper inference that Susanoo is defenseless without Yata's mirror. It permits the inference that any defense without Yata's mirror is less than perfect.
And it also mentions absolutely nothing about Susanoo's own defense. As for as the databook is concerned, it doesn't exist.
Now why do you think an article about Susanoo mentions not a single word about Susanoo's own ability? I think the answer is obvious. Because Yata's mirror is it's blocking ability.

[jdw]

And it also mentions absolutely nothing about Susanoo's own defense. As for as the databook is concerned, it doesn't exist.
Now why do you think an article about Susanoo mentions not a single word about Susanoo's own ability? I think the answer is obvious. Because Yata's mirror is it's blocking ability.

Your inference is improper, imo. It simply says the "perfect" defense, which does not imply that Susanoo is a sitting duck without it, just imperfect. At any rate, Yata's mirror was not shown blocking kirin.

[bighawke5]

IMO
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/392/02/ sussano in the middle -bones.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/392/04-05/ sussano whit yata's mirror

looks like im not the only one that thought that lol

[Alexis]

hmm here susano blocked with yata's mirror as seen on susano's left arm in front of itachi http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/393/06/

here susano protected itachi without yata's mirror as seen with just the bones of susano present just like wat sasuke had a few chapt ago (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/391/16/)

i think those two instances itachi was defended and in one there's no mirror....
Just because it's not there several seconds later doesn't mean he blocked Kirin without it. The Databook states that the shield can adapt to the attack, so if there is no threat of an attack, the shield might not expand. The shield is also not viable to me when Itachi approaches Sasuke after blocking his attacks. And he probably wouldn't be able to walk up to Sasuke if the shield was there to reject Sasuke's body.

[jdw]

Just because it's not there several seconds later doesn't mean he blocked Kirin without it. The Databook states that the shield can adapt to the attack, so if there is no threat of an attack, the shield might not expand. The shield is also not viable to me when Itachi approaches Sasuke after blocking his attacks. And he probably wouldn't be able to walk up to Sasuke if the shield was there to reject Sasuke's body.

Because it is not there doesn't mean that he blocked Kirin with it either, lol.

[Alexis]

Your inference is improper, imo. It simply says the "perfect" defense, which does not imply that Susanoo is a sitting duck without it, just imperfect. At any rate, Yata's mirror was not shown blocking kirin.
You're dodging the point. The Databook doesn't mention anything at all about Susanoo's own supposed defense. It's very improbable that an article about Susanoo would not mention anything about it's defense, if it had one separate from Yata's Mirror. You're just grasping at straws and playing with words here.
There is no other defense besides the Yata's mirror according to the Databook.
Not to mention that the Databook makes it sound like those items are a part of it.

[gold349]

as the sword the mirror is also a mystical item it is not a technique...sasono is the tech. MS techs for Itachi went like Tsuk, Amaterasu and Sasono...powerful genjutsu, powerful ninjutsu and powerful defense, sasono eats away life force. I think it clever really to have found these items the sword unlike any other jutus/tech that would be used against an opponent would eat away chakra making sasono eat away life force faster giving you a massive disadvantage in battle using the sword is perfect for that, the mirror also helps when the time comes when sasono isn't going to protect you as it starts to wane.

[bighawke5]

Just because it's not there several seconds later doesn't mean he blocked Kirin without it. The Databook states that the shield can adapt to the attack, so if there is no threat of an attack, the shield might not expand. The shield is also not viable to me when Itachi approaches Sasuke after blocking his attacks. And he probably wouldn't be able to walk up to Sasuke if the shield was there to reject Sasuke's body.

susano with the bones aka incomplete one defended itachi without the mirror and there was no mirror shown...the mirror only appeared when susano completed its appearance the next chapter (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/392/03/) there middle right pannel mirror makes its first appearance and also the head and reast of susano's arms make their appearance too....

what you'r implying would mean the full complete susano was present when kirin struck...but thats not true since kishi only started revealing susano developing to a more complete ENtity the next chapter with nose and head and the mirror to boot...

[jdw]

You're completely missing the point. The Databook doesn't mention anything at all about Susanoo's own supposed defense. It's very improbable that an article about Susanoo would not mention anything about it's defense, if it had one separate from Yata's Mirror. You're just grasping at straws and playing with words here.
There is no other defense besides the Yata's mirror according to the Databook.

The databook doesn't have to mention that Susanoo is capable of inherent defense, plus kishi shows it anyway. It doesn't mention Sasuke having bones in his body as a defense to kicks and punches. Your inference is poor, and that is not my fault. That poor inference is proof that you have no straws left, not that I am grasping at them. You are making unreasonable inferences and pointing at pictures with no shield to make your point. I will just agree to disagree with you.

[lvarella]

And it also mentions absolutely nothing about Susanoo's own defense. As for as the databook is concerned, it doesn't exist.
Now why do you think an article about Susanoo mentions not a single word about Susanoo's own ability? I think the answer is obvious. Because Yata's mirror is it's blocking ability.

That's not so obvious, no mention of an ability, doesn't mean that another thing is the blocking ability.

[Alexis]

What's with this talk about if Susano'o can block or not?..

We see here that Itachi never had the Yata Mirror out: http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/391/17/
This meant, from the image itself, that Itachi's Susano'o took the hit. Even the skull is missing. Now you could say that the Susano'o was still forming, but I doubt that a incomplete Susano'o actually blocked a heavy loaded Kirin. Don't you?

And here we see Susano'o reforming with the weapons/items:
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/392/04-05/

Cleary again, Yata's Mirror was pulled out at this point.

Now we can say, "Oh, Itachi pulled out the mirror at the point Kirin came down".. seriously that's only an assumption that wasn't drawn in the manga. The pictures themselves shows that Susano'o clearly is visible and took the hit from Kirin.
Actually the Databook states that the shield can adapt to the attack that hits it. If it can adapt to the elements of an attack, it could very well also adapt to the size of the attack.
And even if it can't, the concept of shutting off and turning on a technique should be familiar to anyone by this point.
The Databook also doesn't mention that Susanoo has any defense of its own, and on top of it all speaks of the Mirrir and Sword as if they are part of Susanoo.


Again thank god im not the only one that saw it that way!...it's what ive and a few other's been trying to explain lol
Wow, I'm the only one posting the facts and you feel the need to keep ganging up on me with highfives for every post posting the opposite?

[bighawke5]

Actually the Databook states that the shield can adapt to the attack that hits it. If it can adapt to the elements of an attack, it could very well also adapt to the size of the attack.
And even if it can't the concept of shutting off and turning on a technique should be familiar to anyone by this point.
The Databook also doesn't mention that Susanoo has any defense of its own, and on top of it all speaks of the Mirrir and Sword as if they are part of Susanoo.

databook doesnt mention naruto's SM can fuse with kyuubi chakra...

[Mircus]

Actually the Databook states that the shield can adapt to the attack that hits it. If it can adapt to the elements of an attack, it could very well also adapt to the size of the attack.
And even if it can't the concept of shutting off and turning on a technique should be familiar to anyone by this point.
The Databook also doesn't mention that Susanoo has any defense of its own, and on top of it all speaks of the Mirrir and Sword as if they are part of Susanoo.

That's from Databook III isn't it? Kinda out dated when we can see in recent chapters that Susano'o blocked/took the hit from Suna and Darui's attacks. That proved Susano'o is a defensive chakara/aura/field of its own.

So you're saying Itachi turned off the sword and mirror after the impact, then reshow case them again just for a damn story plot for "oooos" and "ahhhhs"? Was he trying to be cool or something? If you ask me he is cool 100% of the time to begin with! It's clearly shown that Itachi didn't even pull them out until after Susano'o took a hit from Kirin.

[Alexis]

databook doesnt mention naruto's SM can fuse with kyuubi chakra...
Very weak point. Is fusing with SM one of Kyuubi's main characteristics and points?
I don't think so.

Susanoo's shield is according to you guys the only thing it does. Yet the Databook mentions not a single word about it.
I think it's pretty obvious that it doesn't exist. You're just arguing for the sake of arguing now.


That's from Databook III isn't it? Kinda out dated when we can see in recent chapters that Susano'o blocked/took the hit from Suna and Darui's attacks. That proved Susano'o is a defensive chakara/aura/field of its own.
Sasuke blocked it it with Yata's mirror... you guys just don't get that Susanoo's defense is the mirror.

Outdated? It was published after the Itachi fight. So it should mention if it has a defense or not.


So you're saying Itachi turned off the sword and mirror after the impact, then reshow case them again just for a damn story plot for "oooos" and "ahhhhs"? Was he trying to be cool or something?
No, I'm saying that the shield activates and adapts to attacks.
The Databook already confirmed that it can adapt to the elemental nature of attacks.

[bighawke5]

Actually the Databook states that the shield can adapt to the attack that hits it. If it can adapt to the elements of an attack, it could very well also adapt to the size of the attack.
And even if it can't, the concept of shutting off and turning on a technique should be familiar to anyone by this point.
The Databook also doesn't mention that Susanoo has any defense of its own, and on top of it all speaks of the Mirrir and Sword as if they are part of Susanoo.


Wow, I'm the only one posting the facts and you feel the need to keep ganging up on me with highfives for every post posting the opposite?

No im not sorry you have a "victim" mentallity, its not my fault you do. I though we were arguing here? What does one use in his arguments? proof and anything that can help make his case...a doctor will likely show a multitude of patients that have survived a controversial cure to prove his point...this is what it is.
if you cant understand that and are now attacking my person instead of PROVING your POINTs then im done arguing with you.

[Alexis]

No im not sorry you have a "victim" mentallity, its not my fault you do. I though we were arguing here? What does one use in his arguments? proof and anything that can help make his case...a doctor will likely show a multitude of patients that have survived a controversial cure to prove his point...this is what it is.
if you cant understand that and are now attacking my person instead of PROVING your POINTs then im done arguing with you.
I'm talking about feeling the necessity to high five every post that comes from anyone in a 10 vs 1 argument. Shouldn't your posts be enough to carry your argument, or do you really have to enhance your points by keep replying with "Thank God I'm not the only one who thinks so"?

And are you kidding? The past 10 pages has been filled with nothing but people who think so, So please, give me a break.
I appreciate posts that stick to the subject more than high fives.


You need to reread the last 2 chapters. Make sure to keep yourself updated with the chapter too and not just the Databook. Yes the Databook is outdated, because look at Sasuke's Susano'o as it blocked/took the hits form Suna and Darui. Clearly the new Databook will update its information on Susano'o through Sasuke's showcase.

I don't see a mirror here do you? http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/464/16/ What Yata Mirror are you looking at? I see Susano'o's arm protecting Sasuke that's all I see, is that your Mirror?
The shield adapts to attacks. So if all attacks have been bounced off, the shield doesn't necceserily need to be active.
The Databook is still relevant to battle with Sasuke. Doesn't matter if Sasuke uses a different one, Itachi's has no mention of any other defense existing.

[bighawke5]

Susanoo's shield is according to you guys the only thing it does. Yet the Databook mentions not a single word about it.
I think it's pretty obvious that it doesn't exist. You're just arguing for the sake of arguing now.




.

what are you talking bout, dont put things in my mouth. I mentioned that incomplete susano can protect and the mirror can protect, i never said it was the only thing it did, never got into that territory since we werent arguing bout that. we were arguing instead about whether susano had another defense

ur saying no
we're saying yes

i dont think i ever mentioned that its the only thing susano does so dont put things in my mouth
[hr]

I'm talking about feeling the necessity to high five every post that comes from anyone in a 10 vs 1 argument. Shouldn't your posts be enough to carry your argument, or do you really have to enhance your points by keep replying with "Thank God I'm not the only one who thinks so"?

And are you kidding? The past 10 pages has been filled with nothing but people who think so, So please, give me a break.
I appreciate posts that stick to the subject more than high fives.


The Databook is stil relevant to Itachi's Susanoo. Doesn't matter if Sasuke uses a different one, Itachi's has no mention of any other defense existing.

haha are you threathened by me doing so? lols
I'm free to back up my points however i please. what im doing isnt because i cant back up my point and how many times have i quoted someone saying thank you for saying this?

If you focus so much like you mention and stick to the point why does what i do outside our argument matter to you so much? its sidelines right? lol

there's nothing wrong with quoting people to show ur not the only one that thinks a certain way about something. thats one of the reason quotin button exists.

ur not gonna tell me you never thanked someone who said something you wanted to say in a diff way...thats why thanks button is there too. I THANK WHOEVER SAYS SOMETHING MEANINGFUL to the convo simple as that lol its not like BOTH U AND I ARE IN A LOCKED BOX and can only cmmunicate one way

[Mircus]

The shield adapts to attacks. So if all attacks have been bounced off, the shield doesn't necceserily need to be active.
The Databook is still relevant to battle with Sasuke. Doesn't matter if Sasuke uses a different one, Itachi's has no mention of any other defense existing.

Let's move our conversations over to the Toshokan thread (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=39)

Where did it show the Mirror adapting to Kirin's damage? I don't even see a mirror in sight to be honest.

[◆ T.D.A ◆]

It still covers both Itachi and Susanoo from the attack though. Coincidence?
And it wasn't said that Susanoo covers from all angels at once. It was said that it deflects any attack that tries to strike it. Meaning that the shield could materialize where the attack hits it.


I doubt that. Yata's mirror is simply the name of Susanoo's blocking abilities, as far as I'm concerned. But beyond that, if he used it to block a Kunai, I doubt he would not need it against Kirin.

The Databook also speaks of them as if they were part of Susanoo.


No other reason was stated.
Why do you suppose the databook mentions not a single word about Susanoo's supposed "other" defense?
As far as the databook is concerned, Susanoo has no other defense besides the Mirror of Yata.

But remember Susano didn't fully form straight away, just like it was for Sasuke during Raikage fight.

[Nath Uchiha]

Actually, I think you guys are making an assumption about the sage mode and kyubbi. We all saw that it was possible, I just think many of you seem to be refering to Pa frog and Kyubbi instead of the former

[Alexis]

what are you talking bout, dont put things in my mouth. I mentioned that incomplete susano can protect and the mirror can protect, i never said it was the only thing it did, never got into that territory since we werent arguing bout that. we were arguing instead about whether susano had another defense

ur saying no
we're saying yes

i dont think i ever mentioned that its the only thing susano does so dont put things in my mouth
Huh? Then what else can Susanoo do besides block, if the mirror isn't part of it? What is Susanoo's own functionality bedsides blocking?


haha are you threathened by me doing so? lols
I'm free to back up my points however i please. what im doing isnt because i cant back up my point and how many times have i quoted someone saying thank you for saying this?

If you focus so much like you mention and stick to the point why does what i do outside our argument matter to you so much? its sidelines right? lol

there's nothing wrong with quoting people to show ur not the only one that thinks a certain way about something. thats one of the reason quotin button exists.

ur not gonna tell me you never thanked someone who said something you wanted to say in a diff way...thats why thanks button is there too. I THANK WHOEVER SAYS SOMETHING MEANINGFUL to the convo simple as that lol its not like BOTH U AND I ARE IN A LOCKED BOX and can only cmmunicate one way
If you see that for the past few pages it's been nothing but people of the same state of mind as you, then a comment like that doesn't sound sincere at all, and only there to enhance your point.
But do whatever you want, but I found it spammy after the second time you posted only that one line, and nothing else.
I'd rather hear your next case for the argument personally.

[bighawke5]

Huh? Then what else can Susanoo do besides block, if the mirror and sword are separate objects? What is Susanoo's own functionality bedsides blocking?



haha do you read naruto at all or just zoom through the databook?
ARE you actually asking "what can susano do besides blocking?" lols ok im done with you there...plz read the manga, you'll find your answer

and i never mentioned the sword and mirror as seperate OBJECTS I NEVER EVEN GOT INTO THAT ARGUMENT lol i dont know why u bringin it up as a question to ask me i dont wanna get into that argument lol

still tough lols you actually think susano does nothing besides blocking? HAHA ok here ima help you a bit (oro+snakes vs itachi's susano)

[M3J]

Okay, I moved the posts from that topic to here. Feel free to talk about it here. But, no way should there be Susano'o discussion there, like offtopic ones. And no spoilers allowed here, just so you know.
The problem was that it was Itachi's Susano'o mainly being talked about, I think. And you guys were arguing. If you were comparing his and Sasuke's, there wouldn't be as much problem.

[jdw]

A continuation from the discussion started in the Spoiler topic about Susanoo's Yata Mirror and Sword.


The Databook mentioned that it can adapt it's elemental properties according to the element of the attack that hits it. So I was just saying that if it can adapt according to the element of the attack, it could possibly also adapt to the attack itself. Gaara's defense for example, can do so.

When Itachi walked towards Sasuke in the end, the shape of the transparent object surrounding him was different from the shield as we saw it before, so likewise it can be seen as the shield being inactive here as well after the danger was reverted.


Huh? o.o'

If you don't count the sword or mirror, Susanoo has shown no other ability of it's own besides supposedly blocking, if you assume the sword and mirror not being part of it.
The last part you mention was dealt with the Fuuinjutsu sword.

Even if the sword or mirror are not part of Susanoo himself, he has shown swordsmanship as an ability when he chopped down (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/392/12/) Oro's Hydra technique before sealing Oro.

[Alexis]

Even if the sword or mirror are not part of Susanoo himself, he has shown swordsmanship as an ability when he chopped down (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/392/12/) Oro's Hydra technique before sealing Oro.
I was referring to if he had any other jutsu.
Since Sasuke pulled out a sword, which could be different from the other sword, it could have that. But I was thinking of jutsu that could be useful in keeping Sasuke alive, so it was a rhetorical question. And nvm now. lol

[Mircus]

So your saying that the Mirror vanished because it adapt to Kirin's lightning's ability to disappear to thin air? If it had adapted then it would had been written in the manga about the moment Kirin and Susano'o clashed.

The transparency was from Susano'o de-activating, that includes the sword and the mirror.

[Alexis]

So your saying that the Mirror vanished because it adapt to Kirin's lightning's ability to disappear to thin air?
Like when he was walking towards Sasuke in the end, yeah. Gaara's defense does this as well when no threat is imminent.
If Susanoo adapts to the element of the attack, it's implied that it is somewhat sentient, and can adapt on it's own to the situation.


If it had adapted then it would had been written in the manga about the moment Kirin and Susano'o clashed.
I have to disagree here. Because Itachi himself didn't say anything about what happened or how he did it. It wasn't until later in the fight Zetsu was able to see what was going on when attacks hit Itachi. Zetsu was not able to see anything when Kirin struck, but when Sasuke later attacked him again he started commenting on it.


The transparency was from Susano'o de-activating, that includes the sword and the mirror.
I don't disagree here.

[gold349]

sasono just can't be all about the mirror and sword, they being called 'items' for me anyway say they are not techs/jutsu, they are an extension...saying it has no other offense/defense isn't all correct IMO. Sasuke being slammed, bitch slapped, damage being done to him would mean that the mirror wasn't equipped as it would have helped/defended against these attacks. Sasuke hasn't been long in sasono and has enough life force/strength to hold sasono and maybe he has confidence in it even if its mistaken not to need the mirror, that said it doesn't mean he has or he hasn't those items.

[Alexis]

sasono just can't be all about the mirror and sword, they being called 'items' for me anyway say they are not techs/jutsu, they are an extension...saying it has no other offense/defense isn't all correct IMO.
Well as that may be, the thing is the Databook mentions nothing about it's own shield. And it also speaks of them as if they are part of Susanoo. Why leave out something so important as it's own shield if it supposedly blocked something as powerful as Kirin?
Wouldn't the readers want to know how that defense works exactly? I sure would.

Here's the fully translated part on Susanoo from the Databook.
It's an interesting read.

NINJUTSU; KEKKEI GENKAI: Susanoo (Mysterious, All-Encompassing Assistance Ability*)
User: Uchiha Itachi
Offensive; Defensive; Close, Medium, Long ranges; Rank: none

Main text

There are two doujutsu the use of which is allowed exclusively to those who have awakened to the clairvoyant eyes of Heaven, the Mangekyou Sharingan: Amaterasu, which speaks of Light and the material world, and Tsukuyomi, symbolizing the spiritual world and Darkness**. Only in them who hold both of those, dwells the power of the wild, rampaging god... Susanoo. The materialized chakra shapes itself after the wargod's commanding face and powerful physique, and the fierce spirit won't subside until the destruction of all the enemies in its line of sight...!!

There's a reason why Susanoo can boast perfect flawlessness in its offense and defense: the spiritual weapons it holds in both hands. The Sword of Totsuka* in its right hand, which will mow down any kind of enemy, and the Mirror of Yata*, upon which all attacks will bounce back. Substantial or spiritual, and then ninjutsu or physical attacks lose all kinds of significance before the god's efficacy.

Captions

-In the pupils that grasp the principles behind Heaven and Earth, dwells the valorous sword-wielding, shield-bearing Aragami***!!

-Protecting its caster, it destroys the enemy!

-In its left and right hands are held the unparalleled, wondrous Sacred Treasures* of virtues miraculous.

Picture comments

-Only those who have carried mastery of Mangekyou Sharingan - the doujutsu feared by those around it as the strongest - to its extremes will come onto the god's territory. A guardian deity to its caster, it eats away their life at the same time.

-The sake flowing out of the gourd assumes the shape of a sword, becoming the Totsuka! In addition, the souls absorbed by it are sealed there.

-The Sword of Totsuka
One swing of the Sword of Kusanagi* has the power to throw the people it stabs into an genjutsu world of intoxicating dreams, and seal them away for eternity. The sword itself carries a fuuinjutsu.

-The Mirror of Yata
The substance-less spiritual shield. Endowed will all Nature Alterations, it changes its own attributes in response to the attacks it receives, making the jutsu ineffective.


Sasuke being slammed, bitch slapped, damage being done to him would mean that the mirror wasn't equipped as it would have helped/defended against these attacks. Sasuke hasn't been long in sasono and has enough life force/strength to hold sasono and maybe he has confidence in it even if its mistaken not to need the mirror, that said it doesn't mean he has or he hasn't those items.
True, I don't think he activated the shield in that situation. Susanoo looked very primitive, and it appeared as if he was just "leaning" on it to absorb the impact of the drop. Similar to what he did with Manda after Deodara's blast.

[Mircus]

Like when he was walking towards Sasuke in the end, yeah. Gaara's defense does this as well when no threat is imminent.
If Susanoo adapts to the element of the attack, it's implied that it is somewhat sentient, and can adapt on it's own to the situation.


I have to disagree here. Because Itachi himself didn't say anything about what happened or how he did it. It wasn't until later in the fight Zetsu was able to see what was going on when attacks hit Itachi. Zetsu was not able to see anything when Kirin struck, but when Sasuke later attacked him again he started commenting on it.


I don't disagree here.

When Itachi was walking to Sasuke in the end of the battle and the disappearance of Susano'o wasn't because it adapted to any jutsu, elements, it basically was just de-activating.

The mirror most likely doesn't adapt, rather it just does what a shield is meant to do, block/deflect. Like how it says it here (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/393/09/)

I believe the word adapt, in the usage of the mirror basically meant it would 'change its property' to be able to block 'any' attacks it receives. Such as if Lightning were to be shot at it, the lightning would bounce off because the shield changed its attributes to the point were it can deflect the bolt of lightning.

[Alexis]

When Itachi was walking to Sasuke in the end of the battle and the disappearance of Susano'o wasn't because it adapted to any jutsu, elements, it basically was just de-activating.
Yes, I believe that may be the case as well. But what I meant was that the shield may fade like that if no attack is imminent, or if Itachi wills it, since the Databook mentioned that it is able to act on its own.


The mirror most likely doesn't adapt, rather it just does what a shield is meant to do, block/deflect. Like how it says it here (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/393/09/)
That mentions that it is able to deflect any attack, which would still be true even if the shield adapts to the attack.


I believe the word adapt, in the usage of the mirror basically meant it would 'change its property' to be able to block 'any' attacks it receives. Such as if Lightning were to be shot at it, the lightning would bounce off because the shield changed its attributes to the point were it can deflect the bolt of lightning.
Well yeah, that's a given. But that also means that the shield can act on it's own. And even if it doesn't in other situations, I'm not sure I follow what you're getting at?

Zetsu said it can attack from any attack right? But if it doesn't cover all of Itachi, then that statement wouldn't be true, would it?
Unless the shield, or Itachi himself can decide what section to shield from. In which case I'm not sure what the counter arguments point is?

[Mircus]

Yes, I believe that may be the case as well. But what I meant was that the shield may fade like that if no attack is imminent, or if Itachi wills it, since the Databook mentioned that it is able to act on its own.


That mentions that it is able to deflect any attack, which would still be true even if the shield adapts to the attack.


Well yeah, that's a given. But that also means that the shield can act on it's own. And even if it doesn't in other situations, I'm not sure I follow what you're getting at?

Zetsu said it can attack from any attack right? But if it doesn't cover all of Itachi, then that statement wouldn't be true, would it?
Unless the shield, or Itachi himself can decide what section to shield from. In which case I'm not sure what the counter arguments point is?

I know that we've agreed to the mirror on what it is, what it does, and how it does its things.

Though the real reason why I joined the conversation was to say that Susano'o with and without the items, can in fact, block and defend itself and its user because it is a defensive jutsu itself as an offensive.

[SharkJAW]

Does anyone find it possible, aside from the use of Totsuka and Yata, that Susano'o can perform jutsu?

Since Susano'o is the embodiment of the user's chakra, coud Sasuke's sword be different from Itachi's due to Itachi being a master of genjutsu, while Sasuke is much more adept at using ninjutsu?

[jiraiyanindo]

Does anyone find it possible, aside from the use of Totsuka and Yata, that Susano'o can perform jutsu?

Since Susano'o is the embodiment of the user's chakra, coud Sasuke's sword be different from Itachi's due to Itachi being a master of genjutsu, while Sasuke is much more adept at using ninjutsu?

That's a good point that you bring up...interesting. I wonder about that. Obviously, Susano'o should come with both offensive and defensive attributes with or without the sword of totsuka and Yata's mirror. But i wonder if it seems to have a mind of its own like Nagato's Hell statute summon or if the charka user has to control and manioulate the movements of Susano'o?

[Hojinmaru]

But i wonder if it seems to have a mind of its own like Nagato's Hell statute summon or if the charka user has to control and manioulate the movements of Susano'o?

only thing I notice that leans to one or the other is that the Susano'o seems to have bolts in the collar bones, which to me implies a puppet…

[jiraiyanindo]

only thing I notice that leans to one or the other is that the Susano'o seems to have bolts in the collar bones, which to me implies a puppet…

Good observation. I never thought of that but i guess it has to be right. It would be to hax if it could think and function separately of it's chakra user like the kyuubi....then again I guess that is what makes the kyuubi extra hax.

[SharkJAW]

A thought came upon my mind and I decided to post:

Could the Mangekyou Sharingan be entirely oriented with dimensions manipulation?

It might explain where Amaterasu comes from. Amaterasu doesn't seem like it would instantly appear there without having a source without the use of spontaneous combustion. However, that would make it possible for other ninja to perform it. Amaterasu seems as if it is summoned to where the user looks. This could also possibly explain why blood leaves the user's eye.

Tsukuyomi is a genjutsu, but the user has the ability to control time/space, which are two essential parts of a separate dimension. The only think I know that could explain this is that the user moves the victim's mind to that dimension, and manipulates that dimension however he wants.

Susano'o could be summoned from the actual realm of gods which is inaccessible (to humans) and would explain their loss of life force. (The realm of gods is a place of immortality)

Madara and Kakashi obviously use dimensional manipulation. No need to explain that.

However, some evidence that goes against my theory is the difference between Itachi's and Sasuke's Susano'o. Unless, the god is more of an idea, or becomes a personification of the user. Also, Tsukuyomi could just be an extremely powerful genjutsu. Although, Susano'o is a summoning. I assume such because it labels the user as a medium.

(On another note, Itachi's Susano'o holds a sake jar that reminds me of a Tengu's endless sake jar, but that is a whole other matter.)

[benelori]

A thought came upon my mind and I decided to post:

Could the Mangekyou Sharingan be entirely oriented with dimensions manipulation?

It might explain where Amaterasu comes from. Amaterasu doesn't seem like it would instantly appear there without having a source without the use of spontaneous combustion. However, that would make it possible for other ninja to perform it. Amaterasu seems as if it is summoned to where the user looks. This could also possibly explain why blood leaves the user's eye.

Tsukuyomi is a genjutsu, but the user has the ability to control time/space, which are two essential parts of a separate dimension. The only think I know that could explain this is that the user moves the victim's mind to that dimension, and manipulates that dimension however he wants.

Susano'o could be summoned from the actual realm of gods which is inaccessible (to humans) and would explain their loss of life force. (The realm of gods is a place of immortality)

Madara and Kakashi obviously use dimensional manipulation. No need to explain that.

However, some evidence that goes against my theory is the difference between Itachi's and Sasuke's Susano'o. Unless, the god is more of an idea, or becomes a personification of the user. Also, Tsukuyomi could just be an extremely powerful genjutsu. Although, Susano'o is a summoning. I assume such because it labels the user as a medium.

(On another note, Itachi's Susano'o holds a sake jar that reminds me of a Tengu's endless sake jar, but that is a whole other matter.)

Good stuff, nice ideas...and actually nothing goes against this theory...itachi's susano'o was wrapped in by some armor, but it had the skeletal form,too...sasuke can't control susano'o yet,so the lack of armor can be explained, which can easily be yata's mirror, an item acquired by itachi then lost

[kkck]

Sasuke does seem to have the same items itachi had though. He did not show the shield but the sword seemed pretty much the same. I would think with time sasuke will have both the sword and the shield.

[beasticon999]

Itachi manifested the powers of his MS in order to educate him on the MS and i believe sasuke's susanoo wields the totsuka sword but am not sure he wields the yata mirror but he may also and i also expect sasuke to show mastery of the susanoo as he has done with amaterasu.Note this is his first usage of the susanoo and still he used it extensively in his battle with the kages developing it as he went on,easily shielding gaara's attacks.Sasuke is a justu specialist,he will perfect his MS the same way he perfected his sharingan techniques.Naruto should expect a tough battle.

[Forever_Melody]

I question whether the items are part of the Susanoo jutsu or if they are "add ons" that Itachi did when perfecting the jutsu. Orochimaru & Zetsu speak of the Sword of Totsuka as if it were a tangible item that Oro could've obtained(and he wanted to obtain it) so this begs to question whether or not the "items" Susanoo wields can exist without the Susanoo jutsu itself.

I'm also wondering about the "life draining" property the databook speaks of. Sasuke mentions the stress of Susanoo upon his body and his Susanoo is still incomplete so I wonder at the true stress of a full fledged Susanoo and how this stress impacts the amount of time Susanoo can be maintained(as a specific time limit hasn't really been established).

[SharkJAW]

I question whether the items are part of the Susanoo jutsu or if they are "add ons" that Itachi did when perfecting the jutsu. Orochimaru & Zetsu speak of the Sword of Totsuka as if it were a tangible item that Oro could've obtained(and he wanted to obtain it) so this begs to question whether or not the "items" Susanoo wields can exist without the Susanoo jutsu itself.

I'm also wondering about the "life draining" property the databook speaks of. Sasuke mentions the stress of Susanoo upon his body and his Susanoo is still incomplete so I wonder at the true stress of a full fledged Susanoo and how this stress impacts the amount of time Susanoo can be maintained(as a specific time limit hasn't really been established).

Well, in the databook, it states that Susano'o wields the Sword of Totsuka, so I would assume Sasuke had it, also. However, for all we know, Oro had no idea that the Sword of Totsuka and believed there was only one, like the Kasanagi.

The "life draining" property is probably caused by Sasuke summoning an ethereal being from a realm where only immortals survive, thus draining his life. Otherwise, I noticed that Sasuke stated that his cells hurt. Therefore, it may have something to do with the acceleration of the cell cycle and cannot replace themselves normally, causing their death.

[Forever_Melody]

Well, in the databook, it states that Susano'o wields the Sword of Totsuka, so I would assume Sasuke had it, also. However, for all we know, Oro had no idea that the Sword of Totsuka and believed there was only one, like the Kasanagi.
Well the thing is that we don't know. The Databook says Susnoo wields these items, but it does not really state whether these items are independent of Susanoo or not. I mean, could Sasuke or Itachi have summoned only the shield(say to block an attack) for example?

The fact that Sasuke can summon only the ribs and other parts of Susanoo(even if it is through lack of mastery) seem to suggest it is a jutsu made up of "parts" so one can question the independence of these "parts".


The "life draining" property is probably caused by Sasuke summoning an ethereal being from a realm where only immortals survive, thus draining his life. Otherwise, I noticed that Sasuke stated that his cells hurt. Therefore, it may have something to do with the acceleration of the cell cycle and cannot replace themselves normally, causing their death.
Well I'm mostly concerned with how long it can be maintained in conjunction with the degradation of how badly it affects the cells of the user's body. I can only imagine the more "complete" Susanoo is, the worse its toll will be on the user.

As for the life drainin properties, it's still up in the air really. Susanoo isn't a god, the databook stated so, it's only an avatar in the image of a god. In fact, the databook also states the body of Susanoo is made of tangible chakra therefore I don't think there's anything to do with summoning from a "higher plane"(considering summoning the Death God didn't hurt Sandaime's cells).

[kkck]

I would think the sword sasuke's susanoo had was the same as itachi's had. I also think once sasuke has more mastery over the jutsu he will use the sword of totsuka.

[Forever_Melody]

Why didn't Sasuke show the shield though I wonder? I mean, he did technically block all those jutsus coming at him so that would've been a good time IMO for Kishi to show us that Sasuke had the shield(considering he himself mentions the "ultimate defense" portion of his jutsu which according t the databook is the Yata's Mirror) >.>

I really question how long you can keep an invincible jutsu like Susanoo open though.

[jdw]

Sasuke does seem to have the same items itachi had though. He did not show the shield but the sword seemed pretty much the same. I would think with time sasuke will have both the sword and the shield.

I would think the sword sasuke's susanoo had was the same as itachi's had. I also think once sasuke has more mastery over the jutsu he will use the sword of totsuka.

The swords looked sorta similar, but Sasuke's didn't have the gourd that contained the spiritual sword of Totsuka

http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/7007/sasukesword.jpg http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/6681/itachisword.jpg

Sasuke's Sword............................................Itachi's Sword

[SharkJAW]

Well the thing is that we don't know. The Databook says Susnoo wields these items, but it does not really state whether these items are independent of Susanoo or not. I mean, could Sasuke or Itachi have summoned only the shield(say to block an attack) for example?

The fact that Sasuke can summon only the ribs and other parts of Susanoo(even if it is through lack of mastery) seem to suggest it is a jutsu made up of "parts" so one can question the independence of these "parts".


Well I'm mostly concerned with how long it can be maintained in conjunction with the degradation of how badly it affects the cells of the user's body. I can only imagine the more "complete" Susanoo is, the worse its toll will be on the user.

As for the life drainin properties, it's still up in the air really. Susanoo isn't a god, the databook stated so, it's only an avatar in the image of a god. In fact, the databook also states the body of Susanoo is made of tangible chakra therefore I don't think there's anything to do with summoning from a "higher plane"(considering summoning the Death God didn't hurt Sandaime's cells).

Well, if Itachi and Sasuke could do such, why summon Susano'o at all? This is why I believe it is only able to be used by Susano'o, or possibly, a similar summoning.

That reminds me of the Cursed Seal and how, in partial use, it had less of a negative effect on the user. Therefore, Sasuke could somewhat defend himself (like the CS2 wings do), without putting the entire strain of his Cursed Seal. This probably works together with your statement of Susano'o being made up of parts. However, did you notice that after Sasuke summoned Susano'o for a second time, his arm hurt? Could this somehow be related with the fact that he used Susano'o's arm to block?


The swords looked sorta similar, but Sasuke's didn't have the gourd that contained the spiritual sword of Totsuka

http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/7007/sasukesword.jpg http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/6681/itachisword.jpg

Sasuke's Sword............................................Itachi's Sword

Maybe this has to do with the orientation of the user's chakra. We all know here that Itachi was extremely prominent in genjutsu. Maybe this would explain the ability of his Susano'o to seal the victim in an endless genjutsu. Therefore, Sasuke's could possibly be more ninjutsu oriented and could possibly be partially made of Amaterasu flames. Thing is, I don't know and I hope Kishi doesn't end the manga without truly explaining this.

[Forever_Melody]

Well, if Itachi and Sasuke could do such, why summon Susano'o at all? This is why I believe it is only able to be used by Susano'o, or possibly, a similar summoning.
Well one could question Susanoo's use without the items, but Itachi used Susanoo's body to block Kirin(as we have no evidence of any other part of Susanoo appearing) and we've noticed that the initial "body" seems to be easier(and more importantly quicker) to summon than a full-fledged Susanoo. In either case, both Sasuke & Itachi had to start with a "fragment' of Susanoo before actually summoning the whole thing. Therefore, the "base" Susanoo seems to have the advantage of speed whereas the full Susanoo with the items takes a while longer to fully appear.


That reminds me of the Cursed Seal and how, in partial use, it had less of a negative effect on the user. Therefore, Sasuke could somewhat defend himself (like the CS2 wings do), without putting the entire strain of his Cursed Seal. This probably works together with your statement of Susano'o being made up of parts. However, did you notice that after Sasuke summoned Susano'o for a second time, his arm hurt? Could this somehow be related with the fact that he used Susano'o's arm to block?
That's a very interesting idea actually. So you think there might be a link between Susanoo's body and the user's? It certainly would make Susanoo a lot less overpowered that's for sure. But then, Itachi blocked Kiri with Susanoo's body yet he suffered no damage >.>


Maybe this has to do with the orientation of the user's chakra. We all know here that Itachi was extremely prominent in genjutsu. Maybe this would explain the ability of his Susano'o to seal the victim in an endless genjutsu. Therefore, Sasuke's could possibly be more ninjutsu oriented and could possibly be partially made of Amaterasu flames. Thing is, I don't know and I hope Kishi doesn't end the manga without truly explaining this.
But then it wouldn't be the Sword of Totsuka then considering Zetsu's definition mentioned nothing of other abilities except the sealing property.

It's not possible to tell at this point since Sasuke hasn't stabbed anything with the sword of his Susanoo(a stab is what activates the sword's power). Appearance wise there is a difference though.

[braindamage351]

Sasuke clearly doesn't have the sword of totsuka. His sword is in the wrong hand, and Itachi had both weapons fully-formed even when Susanoo itself was as transparent as Sasuke's.

Tsukiyomi = Genjutsu
Amaterasu = Ninjutsu
Susanoo = Taijutsu. It's physically dominant like a god. Itachi's fights flawlessly because of his speed and skill. The two beyond-legendary weapons are additions he acquired himself. Itachi always one-ups Sasuke, this is no exception. If he was a bad guy he could simply have taken Sasuke eyes, removed Naruto's kyuubi, and taken over the world.

[Forever_Melody]

Susanoo itself is a physical thing, it's not ethereal or whatnot. The databook confirms this(by calling it "tangible chaka") and the manga shows that Susanoo can be interacted with on the physical plane(physical attacks & jutsus can reach and affect it).

[Weapon_X]

I'm wondering what Madara's Susano'o is going to be like. Itachi's was a beast, Sasuke's half Susano'o is a beast, Madara's probably has it's own concious lol

[Hussain Hatake]

I'm wondering what Madara's Susano'o is going to be like. Itachi's was a beast, Sasuke's half Susano'o is a beast, Madara's probably has it's own concious lol

Ohhh.... i don't think it will going to be different as Itachi's was a complete version and can't be more completed.

[SharkJAW]

Well one could question Susanoo's use without the items, but Itachi used Susanoo's body to block Kirin(as we have no evidence of any other part of Susanoo appearing) and we've noticed that the initial "body" seems to be easier(and more importantly quicker) to summon than a full-fledged Susanoo. In either case, both Sasuke & Itachi had to start with a "fragment' of Susanoo before actually summoning the whole thing. Therefore, the "base" Susanoo seems to have the advantage of speed whereas the full Susanoo with the items takes a while longer to fully appear.


That's a very interesting idea actually. So you think there might be a link between Susanoo's body and the user's? It certainly would make Susanoo a lot less overpowered that's for sure. But then, Itachi blocked Kiri with Susanoo's body yet he suffered no damage >.>


But then it wouldn't be the Sword of Totsuka then considering Zetsu's definition mentioned nothing of other abilities except the sealing property.

It's not possible to tell at this point since Sasuke hasn't stabbed anything with the sword of his Susanoo(a stab is what activates the sword's power). Appearance wise there is a difference though.


Possibly. Also, Itachi coughed up blood a little while after getting hit by Kirin. This may be due to his disease, but it agrees with Sasuke having a somewhat delayed reaction, also. Alternatively, Itachi didn't fullly summon Susano'o (when he was hit by Kirin), or at least we don't know. It could be that summoning the full Susano'o and using its "absolute defense" is the part that has teh negative effect on the user. I'm almost certain that if Sasuke stuck with the ribcage of Susano'o, he wouldn't have complained about much pain.

[jdw]

I'm almost certain that if Sasuke stuck with the ribcage of Susano'o, he wouldn't have complained about much pain.

Well, that is because he'd be dead :)

I am unsure that Susanoo provides free or low cost protection unless you summon it out 100%. I think the user pays a price the moment the jutsu is activated. Perhaps the price isn't as steep for Baby Susanoo, but there is a high price being paid, imo. I think pain comes with the territory.

[Forever_Melody]

Possibly. Also, Itachi coughed up blood a little while after getting hit by Kirin. This may be due to his disease, but it agrees with Sasuke having a somewhat delayed reaction, also. Alternatively, Itachi didn't fullly summon Susano'o (when he was hit by Kirin), or at least we don't know. It could be that summoning the full Susano'o and using its "absolute defense" is the part that has teh negative effect on the user. I'm almost certain that if Sasuke stuck with the ribcage of Susano'o, he wouldn't have complained about much pain.

I think I agree with jdw. I believe that all versions of the Susanoo cost something in terms of your health, but it magnifies depending on how much of Susanoo you use.

So if Sasuke only stuck with the ribcage, yes he might've suffered less pain, but in return he'd obtain less protection. Remember that the ribcage alone has been susceptible to 2 attacks: Raikage's Raiger Bomb broke a rib and Mizukage's KG melted it.

[jdw]

I think I agree with jdw. I believe that all versions of the Susanoo cost something in terms of your health, but it magnifies depending on how much of Susanoo you use.

So if Sasuke only stuck with the ribcage, yes he might've suffered less pain, but in return he'd obtain less protection. Remember that the ribcage alone has been susceptible to 2 attacks: Raikage's Raiger Bomb broke a rib and Mizukage's KG melted it.

Susanoo ribs are susceptible to 3 attacks:

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/7024/015zr.jpg
http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-463/page015.html

http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/3598/010etj.jpg
http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-464/page010.html

So far it isn't that great at protecting. It is basically a quick fix in a tight spot I guess.

[SharkJAW]

I think I agree with jdw. I believe that all versions of the Susanoo cost something in terms of your health, but it magnifies depending on how much of Susanoo you use.

So if Sasuke only stuck with the ribcage, yes he might've suffered less pain, but in return he'd obtain less protection. Remember that the ribcage alone has been susceptible to 2 attacks: Raikage's Raiger Bomb broke a rib and Mizukage's KG melted it.

I agree. It would make more sense that it did such. True, partial usage = partial defence. This, again, complements my Cursed Seal reference.

[Forever_Melody]

Mind you, CS hasn't really shown any noticeably repercussion upon Sasuke in part 2 -_-;

At least Susanoo has been shown to exert great stress upon the user so that it cannot be maintained indefinitely.

I still wonder at methods to best Susanoo while it is active though.

People have noted that attacks which strike at the ground like Swamp of the Underworld would work since Susanoo doesn't act on the ground.

Shinra Tensei also was a pretty decent contender for an "anti-Susanoo" method.

[SharkJAW]

Mind you, CS hasn't really shown any noticeably repercussion upon Sasuke in part 2 -_-;

At least Susanoo has been shown to exert great stress upon the user so that it cannot be maintained indefinitely.

I still wonder at methods to best Susanoo while it is active though.

People have noted that attacks which strike at the ground like Swamp of the Underworld would work since Susanoo doesn't act on the ground.

Shinra Tensei also was a pretty decent contender for an "anti-Susanoo" method.

Yes. I'm also curious about that, also. It would have been nice to see Pain use Shinra Tensei on Susanoo, though. Some others were also discussing what would happen if Chibaku Tensei was used on Sasuke. However, what we don't know, is if Susanoo is affected by gravity or not, which is the deciding factor if SHinra Tensei would work.

[Silvers Rayleigh]

I have a question.

Do you think Susano'o can be resize ? like in human size?
or can sasuke wear it as an super armor(human size armor) like the raikage did with his raiton armor.
or would he be able to separate himself from susanoo, to fight two people at the same time

[jdw]

I have a question.

Do you think Susano'o can be resize ? like in human size?
or can sasuke wear it as an super armor like the raikage did with his raiton armor

My personal take is probably not, but that doesn't mean that Kishi couldn't give Sasuke that ability as an upgrade to the jutsu, part of showing his eyes are greater than Itachi's.

[IcyAce]

i think question is stupid but

do you think the totsuka blade's genjutsu can be undo by the weilder?? because they said you would be sealed in a genjutsu for enternity

[jdw]

i think question is stupid but

do you think the totsuka blade's genjutsu can be undo by the weilder?? because they said you would be sealed in a genjutsu for enternity

I don't know but I would hope not. Plus even if you undid the genjutsu, the person would still be sealed. So there would just be a non-genjutsu'ed person alive forever within the sword. If you meant have the person escape the sword altogether somehow, I would hope not. If I designed it, I wouldn't want each subsequent wielder to have the ability to undo what everyone before him has done. But you never know.

[IcyAce]

I don't know but I would hope not. Plus even if you undid the genjutsu, the person would still be sealed. So there would just be a non-genjutsu'ed person alive forever within the sword. If you meant have the person escape the sword altogether somehow, I would hope not. If I designed it, I wouldn't want each subsequent wielder to have the ability to undo what everyone before him has done. But you never know.

But you know the way i was think of it is like itachi can take Oro out of the genjutsu if he want to.

[kisame123]

I have a question.

Do you think Susano'o can be resize ? like in human size?
or can sasuke wear it as an super armor(human size armor) like the raikage did with his raiton armor.
or would he be able to separate himself from susanoo, to fight two people at the same time
If I'm not mistaken, I think Yata's mirror has affinity for all elements. If you can cleverly somehow channel that ability towards your hands and body, you may just be able to use all types of elemental jutsu. of course, I doubt that's going to happen.

I've taken this from databook 3:
"-The Mirror of Yata
The substance-less spiritual shield. Endowed will all Nature Alterations, it changes its own attributes in response to the attacks it receives, making the jutsu ineffective."
( http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1175216&postcount=1 )

[Oathencrantz]

When people talk about "anti-Susanoo" methods, I don't think I've ever see anyone mention Gedo Mazo. Why couldn't the spirit dragon just phase through Susanoo? Or if not, just eat Susanoo instead?

[Googlez_kun]

i think Susanou is too imber,especially with the sword of totsuka and the yamata mirror!

[hakuthehedgehog]

I think a FRS whould be able to break, or at least severely damage it without repair, even with Yayata's Mirror.
Think about it, Naruto with Kyuubi had at least twice as much chakra as Kakashi, and could only do 2/3 FRS, so we have a jutsu that has almost as much chakra(or maybe even more) than Kakashi.
In SM, the jutsu gets even more powerfull and can be thrown, so I doubt Susano'o whould mean too many trouble against Naruto.

[Delbi]

Since both Sussano and Gedo are spiritual type of jutsu, it's likely that Gedo's ability would have zero effect. Afterall, it removes one's soul from the body, and Sussano itself is the soul of a warrior or whatever.

As far as FRS goes, I highly doubt it can destroy Sussano. FRS is very very powerful, don't get me wrong, but it's power doesn't seem like something capable of taking out a completed Sussano, let alone Sasuke's hatred infused one which seems to be extremely powerful. If FRS was powerful enough to destroy Sussano, it would have expected nothing to be left of the Pain body it killed.

On a side note, as somone already pointed out, Yatas Mirror negates all attacks, FRS, and for that matter any attack would be pointless against it, it's literally the perfect and most powerful defense in the entire manga, as the Sword of Tousoku is the perfect offense.

[Gats]

Since both Sussano and Gedo are spiritual type of jutsu, it's likely that Gedo's ability would have zero effect. Afterall, it removes one's soul from the body, and Sussano itself is the soul of a warrior to whatever.

As far as FRS goes, I highly doubt it can destroy Sussano. FRS is very very powerful, don't get me wrong, but it's power doesn't seem like something capable of taking out a completed Sussano, let alone Sasuke's hatred infused one which seems to be extremely powerful. If FRS was powerful enough to destroy Sussano, it would have expected nothing to be left of the Pain body it killed.

On a side note, as somone already pointed out, Yata's Mirrors negates all attacks, FRS, and for that matter any attack would be pointless against it, it's literally the perfect and most powerful defense in the entire manga, as the Sword of Tousoku is the perfect offense.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/434/15/
It's very near to be nothing left what do you think ? :darn

[Nmaster]

well the mizukage jutsu did effect susnoo
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/466/07/

[Delbi]

well the mizukage jutsu did effect susnoo
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/466/07/

True, but it was an incomplete version being used by a very weak Sasuke.

[Lightsnake]

Yata's Mirror: So perfect, it can't even block Kirin.

[SharkJAW]

Yata's Mirror: So perfect, it can't even block Kirin.

From what I saw, it could have been that Itachi didn't fully summon Susano'o in time and used a lesser form (like how Sasuke used the ribcage), so that he could just absorb the attack. For the record, if he didn't block Kirin, how was Itachi still alive? (after Kirin, that is)

[Lightsnake]

It didn't fully block it...Susanoo had to reform afterwards.

One isn't fully protected if:
A. Their outer layer of clothing (the cloak) was apparently vaporized
B. They're lying facedown with burn marks...and they're bloody
C. They cough up blood, implying some significant damage

[Nonlife]

From what I could decipher, the Yata Mirror and "special" sword Itachi's Susanoo possessed were actual items, not something manifested by his Susanoo. I'm hopeful that's a fact and that Sasuke's Susanoo doesn't have them.

[Lightsnake]

The databook seems to imply otherwise on that matter.
It's possible the items manifest different from Susanoo to Susanoo

[En Yang Ji]

It didn't fully block it...Susanoo had to reform afterwards.

One isn't fully protected if:
A. Their outer layer of clothing (the cloak) was apparently vaporized
B. They're lying facedown with burn marks...and they're bloody
C. They cough up blood, implying some significant damage

If Susanoo reformed, that would mean Itachi used MS 5 times (2 Amaterasu's, 2 Susanoo's, and 1 Tsukiyomi).

[Oathencrantz]

Imo, when combating Susanoo, apart from Nagato's jutsu, Swamp of the Underworld is your best friend.

It's starting to get emotional in here.

[THM Nindo]

Even though the chapter was called «Susanoo final version» I think that Sasuke's Susanoo might not yet completed.

So far, Sasuke's Susanoo can really be compared to Itachi's, (three arms, six fingers on each hands, start of bones, than flesh, then skin, etc).

So, they should have the same steps, right?

So, this is what I would called Itachi's «Naked Susanoo» step :http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/393/06/
And this is Itachi's «Armored Susanoo» step : http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/393/03/

You can clearly see on the first panel here (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/393/05/), that it's simply an armor that the regular Susanoo is wearing, and that the Armor Susanoo is more «complete» than the naked one.

So, what did we see so far from Sasuke?
We saw THAT Susanoo» : http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/478/08-09/

I'm not too sure if it's supposed to be an armor, but it doesn't look like it to me...
You can actually see that it's body is all made of lines (just like Itachi's naked susanoo).

So, I think that the Susanoo that Sasuke showed so far, is his «Naked» version.

So, I was wondering if it meant that Sasuke had yet another power-up for Susanoo so that he can be complete, with his armor.

[benelori]

I think Sasuke's naked Susano'o is the one which appeared at the summit...and this one from my POV is armored and has well defined weapons...
But I think as well that Susano'o can be evolved...Totsuka and yata's mirror are supposed to be items that are not bound to Susano'o...so Itachi's version could've been something else originally then what we saw...
Sasuke might as well add something to shoot Kirin for example...

[THM Nindo]

I think Sasuke's naked Susano'o is the one which appeared at the summit...and this one from my POV is armored and has well defined weapons...
But I think as well that Susano'o can be evolved...Totsuka and yata's mirror are supposed to be items that are not bound to Susano'o...so Itachi's version could've been something else originally then what we saw...
Sasuke might as well add something to shoot Kirin for example...

I don't know...
I see a lot of similarities between Itachi's naked susanoo and the Susanoo that Sasuke developped against Danzou.

If you look at those pictures, you will notice that the Susanoo's bodies are made of lines...

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o228/thehomemade/NakedSusanoos.jpg
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o228/thehomemade/NakedSusanoosRedlines.jpg


And Sasuke's susanno right now is all made of lines... he doesn't even have one piece of clothes on him...

So, I'm pretty sure he's incomplete and that he will get the armored version later on.

[Prince Sasuke]

You have a point, But the chapter was called Susanoo complete.... not Susanoo perfected. I'm sure Sasuke's Susnoo has more surprises in the near future.

[ninjabot]

About the completion of Sasuke's Susanoo: has anyone stopped to consider that Sasuke's Susanoo doesn't have a legendary weapon...but the ability to MAKE weapons?

While incomplete, Sasuke's Susanoo had access to a basic katana that appeared out of nowhere, shown here:http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/465/01/

But, fully completed Susanoo had access to a bow and arrow, seen here:http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/478/08-09/

Even curiouser, this form can create arrows of pure spiritual energy out of nowhere to use with the bow. That's a given, as he wouldn't have a bow with no arrows...but the fact that he simply wills them into existence is what I'm alluding to.

OR, even wierder...what if Susanoo...ANY Susanoo, has access to a whole catalogue of ethereal weaponry, and that the Yata Mirror and Totsuka were just two of the possible weapons that the Susanoo can call upon? The stronger the weapon, the greater the toll on the user ofcourse.

All just speculation though. Also, it's important to remember the reason why Kirin knocking Itachi down doesn't invalidate the Yata Mirror's strength: for one, not a single one of you can prove to us that the shield was summoned outright, as every time we've seen a Susanoo come into existence, it's been a slow, gradual progression, leading up to the reveal of their weaponry.

There's no way Itachi could have armed his Susanoo that quickly (1/1000th of a second? Please.) Secondly, the Yata Mirror changes it's elemental alignment to block whatever elemental attack is hitting it. It would've taken a wind-like form (or atleast changed colors or something to represent the changing of chakras) inorder to block Sasuke's Kirin, since Wind>Lightning. And since we saw no Yata Mirror, we can't confirm or deny that it was used.

Also, Kirin is the strongest Raiton, and third most destructive jutsu in the entirety of the series. If it managed to break through the Susanoo legitimately, then that's still nothing to scoff at.

[Bonfire01]

I think a FRS whould be able to break, or at least severely damage it without repair, even with Yayata's Mirror.
Think about it, Naruto with Kyuubi had at least twice as much chakra as Kakashi, and could only do 2/3 FRS, so we have a jutsu that has almost as much chakra(or maybe even more) than Kakashi.
In SM, the jutsu gets even more powerfull and can be thrown, so I doubt Susano'o whould mean too many trouble against Naruto.

Naruto + kubi has 100 times as much chakra as Kakashi IIRC. Also stated that even without the Kubi Naruto has 4 times as much as Kakashi :).

As far as FRS vs Susanoo goes only kishi can answer that BUT I don't think anyone could complain if FRS damages Susanoo..

Also as far as I know Sasuke neither has Yayata's Mirror or the sword that Itachi had. I figure it works a bit like Oro's sword in that Sasuke never got hold of it even when he absorbed him. So he never got the 2 items from itachi when he gained his powers.
[hr]

About the completion of Sasuke's Susanoo: has anyone stopped to consider that Sasuke's Susanoo doesn't have a legendary weapon...but the ability to MAKE weapons?

While incomplete, Sasuke's Susanoo had access to a basic katana that appeared out of nowhere, shown here:http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/465/01/

But, fully completed Susanoo had access to a bow and arrow, seen here:http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/478/08-09/

Even curiouser, this form can create arrows of pure spiritual energy out of nowhere to use with the bow. That's a given, as he wouldn't have a bow with no arrows...but the fact that he simply wills them into existence is what I'm alluding to.

OR, even wierder...what if Susanoo...ANY Susanoo, has access to a whole catalogue of ethereal weaponry, and that the Yata Mirror and Totsuka were just two of the possible weapons that the Susanoo can call upon? The stronger the weapon, the greater the toll on the user ofcourse.

All just speculation though. Also, it's important to remember the reason why Kirin knocking Itachi down doesn't invalidate the Yata Mirror's strength: for one, not a single one of you can prove to us that the shield was summoned outright, as every time we've seen a Susanoo come into existence, it's been a slow, gradual progression, leading up to the reveal of their weaponry.

There's no way Itachi could have armed his Susanoo that quickly (1/1000th of a second? Please.) Secondly, the Yata Mirror changes it's elemental alignment to block whatever elemental attack is hitting it. It would've taken a wind-like form (or atleast changed colors or something to represent the changing of chakras) inorder to block Sasuke's Kirin, since Wind>Lightning. And since we saw no Yata Mirror, we can't confirm or deny that it was used.

Also, Kirin is the strongest Raiton, and third most destructive jutsu in the entirety of the series. If it managed to break through the Susanoo legitimately, then that's still nothing to scoff at.


I think it is far more likely that Sasuke's Susanoo has a bow and arrows and that's it. It had a sword when incomplete but I get the impression that his anger awakened it's true form, making it look different and gain a weapon based on Sasuke's nature and power which happened to be a bow.

As far as the question about Itachi's sword and mirror... I think it is highly unlikely that they are a feature of susanoo in general because Orochimaru said he was searching for that sword and commented that he was surprised itachi had it. Sice Susanoo is outrageously rare and Orochimaru knew of the sword but made no connection to Susanoo I think it is probably a real item which Itachi integrated into his Jutsu just as Oro did with his sword. I don't see how Oro would know it existed if all it was was an extension of the Susanoo jutsu.

Same goes with the mirror and the fact Cactus man knew it existed and it's properties.

I think Itachi's mirror and sword were introduced for his fight with Sasuke and are now gone with him unless of course Sasuke gains them for taking Itachi's eyes.... I suppose that's possible but by no means guaranteed.

[Lightsnake]

About the completion of Sasuke's Susanoo: has anyone stopped to consider that Sasuke's Susanoo doesn't have a legendary weapon...but the ability to MAKE weapons?
Why would it?


While incomplete, Sasuke's Susanoo had access to a basic katana that appeared out of nowhere, shown here:http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/465/01/

But, fully completed Susanoo had access to a bow and arrow, seen here:http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/478/08-09/

Even curiouser, this form can create arrows of pure spiritual energy out of nowhere to use with the bow. That's a given, as he wouldn't have a bow with no arrows...but the fact that he simply wills them into existence is what I'm alluding to.

OR, even wierder...what if Susanoo...ANY Susanoo, has access to a whole catalogue of ethereal weaponry, and that the Yata Mirror and Totsuka were just two of the possible weapons that the Susanoo can call upon? The stronger the weapon, the greater the toll on the user ofcourse.

All just speculation though. Also, it's important to remember the reason why Kirin knocking Itachi down doesn't invalidate the Yata Mirror's strength: for one, not a single one of you can prove to us that the shield was summoned outright, as every time we've seen a Susanoo come into existence, it's been a slow, gradual progression, leading up to the reveal of their weaponry.

There's no way Itachi could have armed his Susanoo that quickly (1/1000th of a second? Please.) Secondly, the Yata Mirror changes it's elemental alignment to block whatever elemental attack is hitting it. It would've taken a wind-like form (or atleast changed colors or something to represent the changing of chakras) inorder to block Sasuke's Kirin, since Wind>Lightning. And since we saw no Yata Mirror, we can't confirm or deny that it was used.

Also, Kirin is the strongest Raiton, and third most destructive jutsu in the entirety of the series. If it managed to break through the Susanoo legitimately, then that's still nothing to scoff at.

Please. Kirin the 'third strongest?' Its damage did nothing to Sasuke and Zetsu who were right next to it. the Chou Oodama Rasengan exploding could wipe out a mountain. The Bijuu blasts and Deidara C3 could take out a hidden village.
So, frankly, spare us.

[Bonfire01]

Please. Kirin the 'third strongest?' Its damage did nothing to Sasuke and Zetsu who were right next to it. the Chou Oodama Rasengan exploding could wipe out a mountain. The Bijuu blasts and Deidara C3 could take out a hidden village.
So, frankly, spare us.

I think you might be underplaying Kirin a bit. Although I wouldn't claim it's the third most destructive Jutsu it does appear to be very powerful. the fact it doesn't knock over a lrage areas is because it's a bolt of lightning aimed at a single point.

I think the manga inferred it would have gotten at Itachi if he didn't have its mirror.... so kirin is powerful enough to get through Susanoo. That isn't a cast iron fact by any stretch though. Unless Sasuke aims it at himself or Madara regains his ability to use Susanoo and Sasuke fires it at him I don't think we'll get to find out any time soon :).

It was stated that Kirin was VERY powerful because it used real lightning instead of creating it and nigh on impossible to dodge... so it's pretty damned impressive :).

[kkck]

I think you might be underplaying Kirin a bit. Although I wouldn't claim it's the third most destructive Jutsu it does appear to be very powerful. the fact it doesn't knock over a lrage areas is because it's a bolt of lightning aimed at a single point.

I think the manga inferred it would have gotten at Itachi if he didn't have its mirror.... so kirin is powerful enough to get through Susanoo. That isn't a cast iron fact by any stretch though. Unless Sasuke aims it at himself or Madara regains his ability to use Susanoo and Sasuke fires it at him I don't think we'll get to find out any time soon :).

It was stated that Kirin was VERY powerful because it used real lightning instead of creating it and nigh on impossible to dodge... so it's pretty damned impressive :).

How does kirin not affect large areas? If I recall, didn't it actually grounded the hill on which the fight took place? Other than a biju blast, I don't think any other jutsu in the entire manga has had nearly as much power as kirin. I don't remember seeing susanoo's shield take kirin though. Didn't the mirror appear after kirin? On the other hand it is possible the shield did block kirin but at the same time the impact still caused itachi to fall to the ground and have susanoo dissolved for a moment.

[Lightsnake]

I think you might be underplaying Kirin a bit. Although I wouldn't claim it's the third most destructive Jutsu it does appear to be very powerful. the fact it doesn't knock over a lrage areas is because it's a bolt of lightning aimed at a single point.

I think the manga inferred it would have gotten at Itachi if he didn't have its mirror.... so kirin is powerful enough to get through Susanoo. That isn't a cast iron fact by any stretch though. Unless Sasuke aims it at himself or Madara regains his ability to use Susanoo and Sasuke fires it at him I don't think we'll get to find out any time soon :).

It was stated that Kirin was VERY powerful because it used real lightning instead of creating it and nigh on impossible to dodge... so it's pretty damned impressive :).

Kirin also requires insanely stupid prep time, with all the katons AND heat from a burning Amaterasu forest? And Kirin did partially blow through Susanoo, you can see visible damage done to Itachi..

Sasuke waited until Itachi was barely able to stand and used Amaterasu and his own Katons. Not only that, but the destruction was rather contained and Sasuke, right nearby wans't harmed at all. Or Zetsu.

[Rikudou King]

Kirin also requires insanely stupid prep time, with all the katons AND heat from a burning Amaterasu forest? And Kirin did partially blow through Susanoo, you can see visible damage done to Itachi..

Sasuke waited until Itachi was barely able to stand and used Amaterasu and his own Katons. Not only that, but the destruction was rather contained and Sasuke, right nearby wans't harmed at all. Or Zetsu. Kirin's only prep is using a fire technique to change the weather. Sasuke just used the Amaterasu to speed it up. Judging from what we saw with Sasuke and his Susanoo, Even through Susanoo damage can be dealt.

Sasuke was waiting til the storm clouds had formed. The destruction was quite massive. Both Sasuke and Zetsu were far away from the center of the blast and were still caught up in the blast way.

[benelori]

I don't know...
I see a lot of similarities between Itachi's naked susanoo and the Susanoo that Sasuke developped against Danzou.

If you look at those pictures, you will notice that the Susanoo's bodies are made of lines...

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o228/thehomemade/NakedSusanoos.jpg
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o228/thehomemade/NakedSusanoosRedlines.jpg


And Sasuke's susanno right now is all made of lines... he doesn't even have one piece of clothes on him...

So, I'm pretty sure he's incomplete and that he will get the armored version later on.

In the last panels the lines appear as well, and that's the helmet of Itachi's susano'o...susano'o in fact could be basically made by those lines, or can be recognized by them...but the fact that one was a swordsman(needs armor), the other one is a ranged player(light armor) I don't think it will evolve into a new form...
When I mentioned naked susasno'o I thought about the skeleton which appears with Itachi as well...
But who knows...there are infinite possibilites, when it's sasuke...


While incomplete, Sasuke's Susanoo had access to a basic katana that appeared out of nowhere, shown here:http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/465/01/
I think that's an arrow, not a katana...like seele schneider in bleach

[Googlez_kun]

Sorry if it was mentioned,but couldn't every Doton user just destroy Susanou from inside?

They could do it like Kakashi: http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/260/05/
http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/00000004/000224872/05.jpg

[jdw]

Sorry if it was mentioned,but couldn't every Doton user just destroy Susanou from inside?

They could do it like Kakashi: http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/260/05/
http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/00000004/000224872/05.jpg

If Susanoo has no bottom protection, but I doubt it will have an opening like that.

[Rikudou King]

Sorry if it was mentioned,but couldn't every Doton user just destroy Susanou from inside?

They could do it like Kakashi: http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/260/05/
http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/00000004/000224872/05.jpg Susanoo creates a field of protection around the user, Regardless of where the bones are. If it can stop lava from being shot right between the ribs, It can probably stop someone coming from under.

[ninjabot]

Why would it?

Because it's already shown the ability to create, from thin air, and without any prior stipulation that he were limited to, three different weapons. One of which is a combination of a shield and a bow. Likewise, I'm not saying it can make more than that. I'm saying it's not the slightest bit unreasonable to assume so. When you see someone make three different things out of thin air just because they want it to exist, the first thing you would think (if you're that person's enemy) is "What else can he make?"

I'm simply thinking logically.

Though another more likely possibility is that each Susanoo has one weapon per hand. Sasuke's Susanoo has 3 hands, thus, he has 3 weapons. Itachi's has 2 hands, so it has 2 weapons. And these weapons, I don't think, are based on the summoner's fighting proficiency. We've never seen Sasuke use a bow and arrow, nor Itachi wield a sword and shield.

[Jack Van Burace]

Ok, sry if anyone has answered this before, but I'm wondering what the hell is Susanoo in terms of Jutsu. Even Doujutsu fall under the cathegory of either Ninjutsu or Genjutsu, so I'll have to ask what the hell is it.

A summon is usually a living creature independent of the caster. A Bijuu is a force of nature and unique, with its own origins and not from the ninja, like Susanoo. Ninjutsu often take the shape of something, like Kirin for instance, but they're related to elementals, and Susanoo doesn't seem like it.

The closest thing we saw about it were Fuuinjutsus, as those demons that Nagato called that were able to seal the souls of people. Or the Shinigami that Sarutobi used against Oro. Itachi's susanoo could seal too, although using the mystical sword and not his own powers, or at least it points that way. And usually Fuuinjutsus appear related to Gods and Demons, such as Shinigami (Death God) or those demons we saw with Naraka Pain. Susanoo is also a Deity of Japanese Mythology.

But, we haven't seen anything to justify Sasuke's Susanoo to be caled Fuuinjutsu, have we? Or his arrows would seal Danzou if they hit the true him? What the hell is the cathegory of Sasuke's Susanoo??

[Rikudou King]

It's a ninjutsu. Not all ninjutsus are related to elements. Ninjutsu is a carpet term for anything that uses chakra to create a physical effect.

[Lightsnake]

Because it's already shown the ability to create, from thin air, and without any prior stipulation that he were limited to, three different weapons. One of which is a combination of a shield and a bow. Likewise, I'm not saying it can make more than that. I'm saying it's not the slightest bit unreasonable to assume so. When you see someone make three different things out of thin air just because they want it to exist, the first thing you would think (if you're that person's enemy) is "What else can he make?"

I'm simply thinking logically.

Though another more likely possibility is that each Susanoo has one weapon per hand. Sasuke's Susanoo has 3 hands, thus, he has 3 weapons. Itachi's has 2 hands, so it has 2 weapons. And these weapons, I don't think, are based on the summoner's fighting proficiency. We've never seen Sasuke use a bow and arrow, nor Itachi wield a sword and shield.

Or each Susanoo manifests differently..

[Jack Van Burace]

Or each Susanoo is a side of the true Susanoo achieved when with Fummetsu Mangekyou Sharingan:

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/386/09/

That Four-eyed figure seems to me like the kind of Susanoo that would appear in case Sasuke got Itachi's eyes. Kishi has hinted us of Sasuke's Susanoo before he appeared whole, during his Tsukyomi. I'm very certain that this figure behind Itachi is the FMS Susanoo.

It must be equivalent to a Jinchuuriki controling its Bijuu: an armor one can use at all times he/she wishes, granting the user very strong attack methods. And it must have lots of arms, enabling him to use the mystic sword and the bow-and-arrow.

[Zachc2009]

With a jutsu like Susanoo i don't think you can be fussy with the equipped weapons so you take what your given, Sasuke has probably spammed Susanoo more then Itachi given the state of his eyesight.

[Eprst]

Hey people.org,

All the time through the manga or anime I was seeing strange statues and pictures of Tengu Karasu, for Example:

http://somemangas.com/manga/Naruto/314/

This link provides some information about Tengu Karasu:

http://www.onmarkproductions.com/html/tengu.shtml

Now last time Sasuke used Susanoo, he almost brought a new version:

http://somemangas.com/alt/Naruto/484/cm/

And guess how it looked like? Of course like Tengu Karasu :)
Somehow I think this god or demon is related to Uchiha I think. It is like guardian angel or something. That explains why Itachi used illusion techniques based on crows, that also might explain how Sasuke got bird Kuchiyose. And of course the Fan is the symbol of Uchiha and Karasu also has a Fan...

I dont know was it discussed before but lets discuss that Tengu Karasu?
I personally think that it will give Sasuke God like powers. But the question is in exchange for what?

Post more images of Karasu from manga and more information about it, maybe it will open some mysteries about Uchiha clan and new forbidden jutsus might be revealed :)

[jdw]

Though another more likely possibility is that each Susanoo has one weapon per hand. Sasuke's Susanoo has 3 hands, thus, he has 3 weapons. Itachi's has 2 hands, so it has 2 weapons. And these weapons, I don't think, are based on the summoner's fighting proficiency. We've never seen Sasuke use a bow and arrow, nor Itachi wield a sword and shield.


Itachi's Susanoo might find this revelation surprising.


http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/712/ch392ukpage0809.pnghttp://img850.imageshack.us/img850/7671/middlecopy.jpghttp://img560.imageshack.us/img560/2466/ch392ukpage10.png

[benelori]

^^Susanoo is very much like the Bijuu cloak in this aspect...and it probably has the same basic controls as the Bijuu cloak...just be one with the chakra, imagine things with UR mind and create new limbs and such

[kkck]

I don't think susanoo allows you to create things with your mind though. I doubt users could make it take any imaginable form.... That is not what we have seen at all.

[benelori]

I don't think susanoo allows you to create things with your mind though. I doubt users could make it take any imaginable form.... That is not what we have seen at all.

That's true, but so is the Bijuu cloak...both have their distinctive shape...but creating separate limbs, or maybe implement a sort of kawarimi like 4tailed Naruto did might be possible

[Nonlife]

I don't think susanoo allows you to create things with your mind though. I doubt users could make it take any imaginable form.... That is not what we have seen at all.

I have a bunch of crack theories - which I hardly care about for proven right/wrong - but maybe Susanoo was a product of the RS's "Creation of All Things" jutsu.

[ninjabot]

Itachi's Susanoo might find this revelation surprising.


First time I think anyone's brought to attention a third arm on Itachi's Susanoo. I certainly never noticed.

Well another possibility is that the sword Sasuke's premature Susanoo wielded was mearly a premature version of one of his arrows, or maybe his bow. Or simply that each Susanoo can wield the same weapons at full power, but those weapons can be changed (explaining how Itachi gave his Susanoo the totsuka and kagami shield). Itachi may have access to that bow and arrow shield.