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View Full Version : Question Debating: is Kuma with the Revolution Army or not?



Adrizsnk
September 25, 2009, 12:42 PM
I created this topic to discuss about Kuma (even if it's not the first one...).
Why a new thread? Because the current arc is giving us more and more hints about Kuma's behavious (look at chapter 558!).

I ask you all to give information pro and against Kuma behing a spy of the Revolution army. And if he is not, tell me what is his goal?

I'll go first:
As I said many times here... Kuma is supposed to the most loyal Shichibukai to the WG.
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/474/10-11/

Then, what it's obvious that there is a reason behind it.
With what Iva said in chapter 558, it's becoming more and more obvious that Kuma is loyal to the WG just because of his tittle of Shichibukai... in surface. That's why he can be a double agent for the revolution. Or could have something to protect like Hancock? Or maybe he overuse some advantages given by his position?


Moreover, he asks Namy about Ace and Luffy: http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/473/18/
So he is aware of their relationship.

If you connect these information with the fact that Kuma send Luffy in Amazon Lily, Hancock's island, it can't be for the purpose of just "training" Luffy are because he wanted him to learn more about
haki. He knew that Hancock, as a Shichi, would take part in the war and so Luffy could try to go with her.
Of curse Kuma could not predict the Impel Down thing... But still, if he REALLY wanted to make sure he would never meet Luffy again (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/513/19/), specially not in this war, he would not have sent Luffy to Amazon Lily...
So what? My guess is Kuma, in this situation, gived Luffy the opportunity to go and take part in this war. Some sort of a challenge.
Remember he DON'T underestimate the Strawhats, so he knew that Luffy would like to go and save Ace when he will find out.

Why didn't he do so in thriller bark? Because it would have been a big mistake. Remember that Shabondy Archipelago is THE place where you meet before going to the New world. The perfect place for a bunch of people who have been sent all over the world to meet again (unless they all have an eternal pose...).

Second reason: when you are looking where he has sent everybody, it looks like there is no coincidence. Still, Sanji's case is bothering, I hope he won't become an Okama, but for 80% of the crew it is obviously fitting. Zorro? Yes, I still don't have any clue of the reason behind he being with Peronna. Anyway, my guess is that this operation may have be planned after what happened in Thriller Bark. He didn't randomly sent them away, so he had some kind of plan.

That doesn't explain the whole thing, but I expect you to stop thinking that Kuma would just let go the Strawhat because of some "sympathy". Nonsense.

Anyway, Kuma must be against the WG at some point. WHY? Only Oda knows, but we still can to guess^^!


__________________

ScratchmenApoo
September 25, 2009, 01:58 PM
Kuma already meant to kill Luffy in Thriller Bark because of his superiors whining about his duties or something. He agreed to take Luffy's pain and transfer it to Zoro, and he thought he was sure that Zoro would die after that. But did Kuma leave Thriller Bark before or after Zoro took that attack? If he stayed there and saw Zoro survive, did he change his mind about it ? He couldn't take any proof (Luffy's head/Zoro's body) to the World Government, so he decided to take the scolding again?

Maybe Kuma wanted all the Strawhats to think that he really is the bad guy (to them), because he knows that if he told them, the word would've spread out and everyone would've know, and he would've been in trouble.
If he works for the Revolutionary Army, then surely he cannot kill the son of their leader, as he was supposedly prepared to do in Thriller Bark.

Also, the word acquaintance in ch. 558 wouldn't necessarily mean a colleague, but an old rival, perhaps someone Ivankov has fought many battles with. It's the same kind of relationship like Whitebeard and Sengoku have - They each respect each other to a certain degree.

I would like to think that he is a spy for the Revolutionary Army though, because the changing sides would make the plot even more diverse.

Adrizsnk
September 26, 2009, 04:07 AM
I disagree with your statement:
"Also, the word acquaintance in ch. 558 wouldn't necessarily mean a colleague, but an old rival, perhaps someone Ivankov has fought many battles with. It's the same kind of relationship like Whitebeard and Sengoku have - They each respect each other to a certain degree."

Iva was shocked that Kuma could fire at him. If they were rivals, he would enjoy a fair and squair battle with him...

Kuranzyan
September 26, 2009, 10:07 AM
Iva wasn't shocked that Kuma fired at him, he was shocked because of the way that laser was fired, directly and without any apparent moral constraints. It was almost as if Kuma said "Don't know you, don't care about you, I've got no interest in you. Scram."

Razh
September 28, 2009, 10:13 AM
Kuma was probably an old comrade of both Dragon and Kuma. Everything points that they all know each other well.
At one point Kuma became a Shichibukai and a cyborg. There's still a lot that we don't know about in Dragon's, Ivankov's, Kuma's and other Shichibukai histories so we can only make wild guesses of what happened back then.

I believe that Kuma has just a limited freedom. He did say that he can't go against WG orders. I think has to obey them in order to stay alive. I really doubt that his cyborg body operates on solar power. Something as complicated as a Pacifista has to have something rare as a fuel.

k-dom
September 28, 2009, 12:23 PM
I think he said that he took order from the world government not from the marine in order to explain his behaviour wrt Kizaru. Not that he really is entitled to them.

Razh
September 28, 2009, 12:34 PM
Yeah, I know that, but there has to be a reason why he's the most faithful of the Shichibukai, the Tyrant that obeys every WG command.

I really do believe that he's dependent of Vegapunk at least. He is a cyborg after all and he needs some power source, and as I said, I don't think it's sun light, or any kind of beverage for that matter.

Lofwyr
September 28, 2009, 02:25 PM
I really do believe that he's dependent of Vegapunk at least. He is a cyborg after all and he needs some power source, and as I said, I don't think it's sun light, or any kind of beverage for that matter.
Maybe its a hidden liquid bottle in the bible. :D

I think hes a rev... he had to many options killing or capturing the SHs but he did not.

modoki
September 28, 2009, 09:30 PM
Well considering that Kuma was modified by Vegapunk. That alone could mean a lot of factors. Maybe memory wise

Dalyup!
September 29, 2009, 09:00 AM
Perhaps Kuma is actually working for Vegapunk, but was once a double agent for Dragon? Vegapunk could have designs of his own for the world, and although we don't really know anything about him, he may be the archetypal genius with ideas of world control or at least the destruction of the world government; he may have programmed Kuma or Kuma may be simply working with him.

Considering the increased notability the Strawhats got from the Enies Lobby incident Vegapunk could have thought they could be a force to be used or reckoned with, especially if Kuma told him of the relationship of Luffy and Ace - if he knows it - thus explaining why he had Kuma send them to "power-up" islands, if they are that.

Just a tentative idea. I doubt Oda will reveal us with what we think is the obvious though.

modoki
October 06, 2009, 02:20 PM
Kuma was a revolutionary. As an android, any body part can be modified or eliminated such as the brain. Kuma having memories of his past in bits makes him an incomplete pacifista. Having memories of nothing and no one completes everything.

Kuma being labeled in the past a tyrant is more than enough proof that dragon has assembled some very dangerous members.

At this point i think kuma is basically dead, and now a walking heartless machine.

Poneglyph420
October 06, 2009, 02:47 PM
Kuma was a revolutionary. As an android, any body part can be modified or eliminated such as the brain. Kuma having memories of his past in bits makes him an incomplete pacifista. Having memories of nothing and no one completes everything.

Kuma being labeled in the past a tyrant is more than enough proof that dragon has assembled some very dangerous members.

At this point i think kuma is basically dead, and now a walking heartless machine.

He sure does seem like a full fledged cyborg now. I'm scared to think of what a fully subservient Kuma would have in store for us..

Too soon to say...

I have to agree the Revolutionaries seems to be mysterious and powerful....

Musashi_Keiji
October 09, 2009, 03:26 PM
Well the topic was created a few weeks ago before the current chapter came out. But from this point on we now know this for sure:

Kuma was part of the revolutionary army, and hated the WG.
Kuma was good friends with Ivankov.
Kuma used to fear Ivankov before having his memories erased.
Kuma submitted himself for experiments of the WG after becoming a Shichibukai. He is the prototype pacifista and most powerful.

Dr. Vegapunk works for the WG. Although I'm willing to be he works against his will for them.(just my theory).

zerocooldx
October 09, 2009, 04:56 PM
It's a good possibility that Kuma may have been a Revolutionary a long time ago. But something drastic had to have happened in order for him to join and give himself up to the WG.

Bugzee
November 06, 2009, 01:36 AM
I think he might've been a double spy, but was leaning in Dragon's favour. So, the marines decided to make him a complete Pacifist to ensure his trust/loyalty well something of that kind. But, now after the clash with the Okama Queen, I get the feeling that Kuma just had a past relationship/connection with Dragon & the revolutionaries.

Kuma & Doflam are really interesting characters and I hope we get a deep insight to what intentions they have and some background info would be great as well!

Oser
December 01, 2009, 06:39 PM
If I may...

This is something I've been thinking about lately, as I've been re-reading.

In light of what Ivankov says in chapter 560, it's pretty clear that in the past, Kuma harbored a strong hatred towards the government.

In the end, he gave his life over to them, but I don't believe it was completely by choice.

As I re-read the Thriller Bark arc, I started to piece together a story in my head that makes more and more sense the more I read.

Going back to Kuma's re-introduction in the beginning of the Thriller Bark arc, I believe Kuma's purpose there was to test the Strawhat crew. This is my interpretation of these events:

Test #1: Strength
While Luffy defeated Crocodile in 1-on-1 combat, and the entire crew took down CP-9, Moria with Oars and his island of zombies was in a completely different league. It took the entire crew working together to take them down. Kuma stood back and watched it all, gauging their strength and teamwork. He specifically remarks about a few individuals' strengths, and he zeroes in on Zoro who, at that point, was the strongest of Luffy's crew.

Test #2: Dedication
Kuma was given orders to slaughter everyone on the island. After he had proven to the crew that their situation was hopeless, he offered them a deal. Give him Luffy's head, and he would let the rest of them live. The entire crew simultaneously refused and stuck with that resolve.

Test #3: Will
Weakening them to the point that they could no longer fight back, Kuma tests Zoro's will. Zoro offers up his life, but instead of letting him take the "easy" route, he offers him a much more difficult road. Take all of Luffy's pain and possibly die. Here, Zoro is representing the entire crew, something Sanji makes clear by attempting to step in.

The reason for these tests is not entirely clear, but a few things about their next encounter are:

- Kuma is on his last legs. He knows that he will soon "die", as evidenced by his speech to Luffy.

- Kuma has predicted, as has just about everyone else, the battle to come over Ace's life, and that Luffy will get involved if possible.

- Kuma sent the entire Strawhat crew to locations that will probably ultimately be beneficial to them, thus detrimental to the WG.

- Kuma specifically sent Luffy last to show him his need to become stronger.

- Luffy just -happened- to land in Boa's lap, who holds absolutely no loyalty to the government.

So, ultimately, here is my theory on the reasoning behind Kuma's actions:

He still hates the WG, and accepted his position as Shikibuchai as a way to get close to them. Outwardly loyal to the WG, at some point he allowed Dr. Vegapunk to begin tinkering with his body, creating the first Pacifista. While I don't know the purpose of this, I think Kuma lost control of his own situation at some point and could not avoid his eventual demise. Seeing this coming, he, like Shanks, entrusted his cause to Luffy and co.

He used the Thriller Bark experience to ensure that the Strawhat crew had what it takes to stand up to the government in the battles to come. When he was confident that they had the right potential, he set his last plan in motion before losing himself to Vegapunk and the WG. The first part of his plan was transporting Luffy and his crew to locations that would accelerate their growth to compete in the New World and against the WG.