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kal-elh
September 28, 2009, 01:28 PM
what could have happened to WB original crew.

Died in Batle???

He was on a crew that disbanded???

He was on someones crew???

DIED OF OLD AGE

went home to take care of their children

Please tell us what you think.

monkey D luffy
September 28, 2009, 01:39 PM
thank you i didnt want to go off topic in the chapter discussion.

anyway, about thequestion you raise, i think that jozu and marco can infact be a part of his original crew due the fact the spoke like older people calling the other youngsters when shanks arrived, they seemed to know him personally too. about the other crewmates i think that save for ace all of the other fleet captains are part of the original crew, the others joined with time. i do believe that when roger ruled the sees both crews were kinda like luffy's and thats also why people see roger in luffy.

Razh
September 28, 2009, 01:43 PM
Dingoes ate them?

I'd like to propose a name like "Whitebeard pirates discussion thread" which would really be better for this kind of thread.

I would say that a part of them has died in battle or of old age and part of them have retired, probably living on some of the islands controlled by Whitebeard.
I don't think anyone is in jail, since we know how Whitebeard feels about that.

So, there were probably pirates that were older than Whitebeard in his crew, the same way that Luffy isn't the oldest. So, some of them could have died naturally I suppose.
But as for those that have supposedly died in battle. I don't think the period of stability was achieved easily. After Roger's death there was probably a lot of fighting, probably with other pirates just as much as with marines. A lot of blood was spilled, and after some time, after lot of fighting, 4 of the pirates rose over the others, and took control over most of the New World.
I'm guessing Whitebeard lost some men in the fighting after Roger's death.

kal-elh
September 28, 2009, 01:58 PM
I really don't think that roger ruled anything

I think that people started calling him Pirate King cuz he did the impossible, well he traveled around the gloge something that had never been done before.

and I think that they were different types of pirates

I don't realy see WB with a small crew, well maebe smaler but not like Ruffy's

Razh
September 28, 2009, 02:24 PM
Ups, did I say that?

...

Wait, I didn't say that Roger ruled anything.

What I said was that pirates fought some time after Roger's death, and the 4 of them rose above the others, each of them ruling part of the New World, WG calling them Yonkou because of that.

Also, when I was comparing Whitebeard with Luffy, I wasn't comparing the size of the crew, just to make it clear.

kal-elh
September 28, 2009, 02:35 PM
Chill

AND about the thread name I've got no Idea of how to change that.

monkey D luffy
September 28, 2009, 03:08 PM
razh i said that roger ruled the seas.
kal-elh try editing your first post.

also another thing taht might have happened:
seeing how one of the yonkous is a former jolly roger pirate i think that after roger died people thought to themselves that they want the title of pirate king next and defected (probably with WB's permission cuz if not their dead) to create their own crews. and as i said before some of the original crew are still here, seeing what their DF is it is possible that they are even older then WB himself.

Razh
September 28, 2009, 03:29 PM
Chill

-_-;


AND about the thread name I've got no Idea of how to change that.

Mods do that. It doesn't really matter, just a suggestion.

And yeah, it's also quite possible that some of WB's crewmen decided to go on their own.

Finale
September 28, 2009, 06:30 PM
They did say that the title of 2nd division commander has been missing for a while. Maybe he/she got killed in battle.

nalex94
September 28, 2009, 06:59 PM
I think that all of the other crews that joined in the war were old crewmates of WB and leftto make a crew of there own

kal-elh
September 29, 2009, 12:14 PM
regarding the second division captain seat I think it belonged to Mihawk

(WB sait to Shanks that he remembers his duels with Mihawk - to me it implies that he was on his crew oderwise how could he have seen that it's not like there is a place for those to take place while people hang around to watch and enjoy the fight )

BetaRuler
September 29, 2009, 01:03 PM
shoooting ur theory down Kal, imo i dont think Mihawke has really ever seen WB before.
1st the way they tested eachother, Mihawke Id expect wouldnt need to test WB if he'd ever seen WB in action before.
2nd they didn't exchange any words between eachother of familiarity.
This shanks and mihawke duel must have been quite a legend that made widespread news for the whole world to know about or something, like it might have decimated an area up like Black Beards vs Aces fight.

Also that pirate king stuff, didn't Rayleigh say that Rogers only got the Pirate King title when he was about to die? Sounded to me like it was a title they put on his death bed, he didn't really LIVE as the pirate king, but he's remembered as a pirate king.

Edit
On topic tho, maybe nothing ever did happen to WB's crew mates, Im gathering your using examples like Rayleigh to judge how old other pirates from Rogers days would look, but maybe Rayleigh was old even for Rogers crew, if rookies from Rogers days are ones like Shanks and Buggy, Mihawke maybe, perhaps Crocodile, even Moria and Kuma, Sengoku, and none of them look all too old.
Maybe most of the division captains are original crewmates and Whitebeard took them all in young, I mean he's quite big on his "children" theme.
Whitebeard might just be unhealthy, and Sengoku doesn't look that old.

kal-elh
September 30, 2009, 05:57 AM
He just says that he wants to know how far beheind he realy is.

goldb
September 30, 2009, 06:57 AM
On the issue of WB Pirates and former crewmates, division captains, I think it's just as Razh said, a number of things could have happened to them.

I think the likes of Marco and Joz have been around WB for a few decades since they both look well into their 30s.

kal-elh
October 01, 2009, 06:30 PM
Yes but WB is well into his 70th ish I mean the guy is old really old

so I'm talking about the original crew the ones that first joined him wouldn't call him pops

BlackHair
October 01, 2009, 06:33 PM
Yes but WB is well into his 70th ish I mean the guy is old really oldAren' u putting his age a bit too high? 22 Years ago he was "probabaly" in his prime fighting Roger. So if he was at that time around his late 30s then I would say his current age is now around his late 50s or at most his early 60s. But not more.

Im also interested in his early crew. I guess they are either dead, retired or separated from WB. Also Im supporting the Idea that Mwk was once a crewmate of him.

kkck
October 01, 2009, 09:48 PM
Aren' u putting his age a bit too high? 22 Years ago he was "probabaly" in his prime fighting Roger. So if he was at that time around his late 30s then I would say his current age is now around his late 50s or at most his early 60s. But not more.

Im also interested in his early crew. I guess they are either dead, retired or separated from WB. Also Im supporting the Idea that Mwk was once a crewmate of him.

I'd actually think WB is about 70.... Specially assuming he was roger's age. Take a look at this:
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/506/09/

If roger was a rookie brook can remember, then roger was already a pirate over 50 years ago. A rookies age can vary as we have seen with the supernova so when roger was a rookie he was at around 18-35 years old. Roger and WB could be anywhere between 68 and 85 years old.

Razh
October 02, 2009, 03:37 AM
It's possible that Whitebeard was somewhat younger than Roger. It was never stated anywhere that they became pirates at a same time, just that they were rivals.

You know, I wonder if Whitebeard isn't dying from some disease too. Those machines could be used to prolong his life. I don't think a guy like him would just die before he was ready. Maybe he's waiting for something.
Anyway, this option would allow Whitebeard to die without actually losing to someone.

goldb
October 02, 2009, 04:05 AM
Yep, I like the idea. Yeah it seems a lot of us( including me) forget that maybe they weren't the same age. Either one of the two could have been older than the other.

PS: Do you think that Garp looked older that Roger during the flashback??

I really do hope we get more information/flashbaccks into Roger, Garp, Sengoku or WB's pasts that could explain how the previous era, and maybe Crocus or Brook could elaborate on the "Roger the rookie" topic.

ANBU4U
October 03, 2009, 01:32 AM
Aren' u putting his age a bit too high? 22 Years ago he was "probabaly" in his prime fighting Roger. So if he was at that time around his late 30s then I would say his current age is now around his late 50s or at most his early 60s. But not more.

Im also interested in his early crew. I guess they are either dead, retired or separated from WB. Also Im supporting the Idea that Mwk was once a crewmate of him.

I absolutely think Mihawk was once in Whitebeards crew...its the only thing that makes sense in context with Shanks' and Whitebeard's conversation.

As for the rest of Whitebeards old-timers (as the likes of Shanks/Mihawk/Blackbeard were still kids in that era) who knows. Whitebeards crew is so huge they may well have retired somewhere "safe" in the New World as soon as they were no longer needed. I would Imagine the infamous crewmen of the Yonkou have that option if their captains really do control large swaths of territory.

Then again maybe they ARE still there, and have simply been surpassed by the young guns, so they aren't shown much.

....Oh and on a final note...it occurs to me that Marco could actually be an old-timer of sorts. He's not the age we're looking for persay(WB, Raleigh, Shakie) but rather around Shanks/Mihawk/Buggy/Blackbeards age....
Worth noting I think.

Im not sure about Joz. He feels younger for some reason.

Lord Rayleigh
October 03, 2009, 01:25 PM
If roger was a rookie brook can remember, then roger was already a pirate over 50 years ago. A rookies age can vary as we have seen with the supernova so when roger was a rookie he was at around 18-35 years old.
Roger conquered the Grand Line in 3 years. He died 1 year after that. And he must not have been for a long time a pirate in the East Blue (Logue Town is near one of the entrances of the GL). So, I guess he has been a pirate for 4-5 years.
According to what Roger looked like, I think he must have been around the 30-40.

Poneglyph420
October 04, 2009, 12:00 AM
Roger conquered the Grand Line in 3 years. He died 1 year after that. And he must not have been for a long time a pirate in the East Blue (Logue Town is near one of the entrances of the GL). So, I guess he has been a pirate for 4-5 years.
According to what Roger looked like, I think he must have been around the 30-40.

It's hard to say...
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/506/11/

Here it seems like that was just one of many adventures of the Jolly Roger Pirates..
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/506/12/
And here Rayleigh seems like he is acknowledging Crocus as a Nakama even though he was not a lifelong member...

Seems to me him and Garp were nearly the same ages..maybe Garp was a little older...

HMM???

Lord Rayleigh
October 04, 2009, 04:46 PM
Indeed. They conquered the GL three years after Crocus became their nakama, and Roger died four years after Crocus joined them.
But as you said, three years is said to be not a lot by Rayleigh. So, they must have travel a lot before conquering the GL. Maybe they visited all the Sky Islands before (the Gulf Stream is not the common way to get to the White Sea and normally you must visit a lot of other sky islands before seeing Skypiea).

kal-elh
October 04, 2009, 06:43 PM
I think that Roger was younger than both WB and Garp, Garp was in the marine 40 years ago and I think he was already famous back then non the less WB was probably a very big shot when Roger came around and the thing is that he had a deadline ( literally ). remember when WB asked ACE why he was in such a hurry ( to get to raftel and to try to defeat him ) and that he could sail under his wing for as mutch time as he wanted.

In my opinion WB didn't get to Raftel cuz he simply doesant want to ( or he is not ready, but he sure is capable of doing so ), Roger came to be caled Pirate King cuz he got to raftel and WB is the Emperor of the seas cuz heliterally rule the seas ( the new world, he probably has the largest piece of the 4 emperors ) and he is fered even by the WG it self cuz he has enough power to obliterate the world.

kkck
October 05, 2009, 06:35 PM
Roger conquered the Grand Line in 3 years. He died 1 year after that. And he must not have been for a long time a pirate in the East Blue (Logue Town is near one of the entrances of the GL). So, I guess he has been a pirate for 4-5 years.
According to what Roger looked like, I think he must have been around the 30-40.

That does not rule out what I said though. roger died 22 years ago which means by that time brook had been drifting for around 28 years. If we assume roger was at least 18 years old when he became a rookie(the youngest a pirate should be probably) then we have 18 + 28 = 46. And then again, it is possible roger was a pirate trainee even before he became a rookie. Also, if roger had been any older than 18 when he became a rookie he would be even older by now lol.

Now, we have no idea of what roger did before starting his journey around the GL(all we know is that he was a rookie around 50 years ago thanks to brook) but I would think he was already a pirate for a long time before his final journey.

Razh
October 05, 2009, 06:39 PM
Now, we have no idea of what roger did before starting his journey around the GL(all we know is that he was a rookie around 50 years ago thanks to brook) but I would think he was already a pirate for a long time before his final journey.

Yeah. It's hard to imagine him as a traveling merchant or a fisherman.

kkck
October 05, 2009, 07:02 PM
WHy could he not just be a regular pirate before that? It is possibly roger had a more normal life before his final trip but I would think he was a pirate for most of his life if not all. I doubt rogers entire life and only feat is to cross the GL. According to what brook said and assuming he is correct, roger probably was a pirate his entire life otherwise by now roger would be over 100 lol. I do think the guy brook was talking about was roger BTW, oda hints at things like that all the time.

Razh
October 05, 2009, 07:19 PM
I would think that Roger is about the same age as Garp. Garp should be about 65-70, seeing how he has a grown son and a grandchild aged 17.
My guess is Roger was about Luffy's age when he became a pirate. That was 50 years ago.
The whole stuff about him not conquering Grand Line until he was quite older is not that weird. It's possible that the log poses weren't that common at that time. Sailors could have been sailing through Grand Line like some labyrinth without end.

I also think that Whitebeard is about the same age. He should be in the late 60s now or younger. I don't think he was older than Roger.

madmotoristmonk
October 05, 2009, 09:44 PM
Getting back on the subject of Whitebeard's crew

If you notice, Whitebeard has two different jolly rogers. There is the skull and crossbones seen on commander Ace, and the flag itself. While some of the veterans; Marco, Atomos, Jozu, and some of the older commanders in panel during the intial sieze hold the "crecent moon shaped like the titular pirates 'stache"

I present this theory, we know that age means about jack diddely in the one piece world. (i.e. Kureha is admittedly 100+ years old and still has an athletic figure, Shakky being retired from pirating for 40 years and still looking milfish in her 30's, and lets not get started on Aokiji not aging a day in 20 years)

So I'm saying, we take Marco and Jozu, the 1st and 3rd division captains/commanders sporting what i believe to be the "throwback" Whitebeard isignia. You only see this on the older guys on the ship mostly. Now i admit, in panel you see some of the "youngsters" sporting the throwback, but I'll chalk that up to some guys wanting that cause it looks cooler.

I believe Marco, Jozu, Atamos, and alot of the older commanders and crew have been with whitebeard for a while, and since Teach himself stated he spent "decades" on Whitebeards ship, I can imagine 'ol Whitebeards been in the game for a minute. Roger too, maybe he didn't start his grand voyage 'till he knew he would die--a final hurrah if you will.

I know i offered very little physical evidence, and presented it only by reference and i apologize to my detratctors and anyone who agrees by not validating this more, but its 10:44pm and I'm a lil tired.

thanks for reading

LoS
October 05, 2009, 10:26 PM
I would think that Roger is about the same age as Garp. Garp should be about 65-70, seeing how he has a grown son and a grandchild aged 17.

Garp clearly looked older than Roger in his Roger & Garp jail convo flashback.

Razh
October 06, 2009, 02:40 AM
Garp clearly looked older than Roger in his Roger & Garp jail convo flashback.

He just had gray sideburns. Some people get gray hairs earlier. If you think about it, Garp can't be more than a couple of years older than Roger.

goldb
October 06, 2009, 04:57 AM
steering this back to WB Pirates, madmotoristmonk made a good point I've been wanting to mention about the different WB insignia there has been.

There's the revamped jolly roger and the other one on Marco's chest:

http://dl01.mangashare.com/manga/One-Piece/434/003.jpg

if you look at the current chapters, you'll see them everywhere on the WB pirates. So is it a case of old school and new school? or something else?

Discuss...

PS. I'm going with madmotoristmonk's theory on this, cos at first when this chapter(434) came out, I thought they had different insignia because it was part of Marco's original crew that had joined up with WB when he came onboard, But after seeing so many captains and crew members with it, I'm starting to think this was WB's old jolly roger that the old guys have.

Razh
October 06, 2009, 05:21 AM
It's just a simplified version of Whitebeard's skull and bones. Ace probably wanted something different so he had himself a more detailed tattoo.

I always thought that. Wouldn't put too much significance on it.

Akainu
October 06, 2009, 06:15 AM
He just had gray sideburns. Some people get gray hairs earlier. If you think about it, Garp can't be more than a couple of years older than Roger.
Let's see:
Roger has a child at the age of around 20 called Ace
Garp has a child named Dragon who has a child at the age of 17 called Luffy

even if we assume Roger was "old" when he impregnated Portgas D. Rouge we would still have a result of a good decade between those two, no?

Razh
October 06, 2009, 06:22 AM
Let's see:
Roger has a child at the age of around 20 called Ace
Garp has a child named Dragon who has a child at the age of 17 called Luffy

even if we assume Roger was "old" when he impregnated Portgas D. Rouge we would still have a result of a good decade between those two, no?

I don't see what would be wrong with Roger having a baby with 40 years or more. It happens all the time. He only settled down in the last year of his life. Probably didn't have time for a serious relationship earlier.
He was a rookie 50 years ago. I don't think he was a rookie at the age of 5-10.

BlackHair
October 06, 2009, 07:09 AM
Sry for my late answer.

I'd actually think WB is about 70.... Specially assuming he was roger's age. Take a look at this:
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/506/09/

If roger was a rookie brook can remember, then roger was already a pirate over 50 years ago. A rookies age can vary as we have seen with the supernova so when roger was a rookie he was at around 18-35 years old. Roger and WB could be anywhere between 68 and 85 years old.
You are completely right. Roger was a rocky 50 years ago. I totally forgott what Brook said back on SA. I just assumed Roger and WB were back 22-25 years ago around at Shanks (now) age, 37.

So it must be as u said 68-85.

madmotoristmonk
October 06, 2009, 06:45 PM
I see all the points you guys are raisning, and every last one contains some validity.

However, it bugs me that Teach said he spent "decades on whitebeards ship" waiting for his coveted aku no mi. Now i don't speak a lick of japanese, but if it was a literal translation of decades then that means that Whitebeard has been pirating for almost half a century ( i.e. if he's 70ish, perhaps he started in his twenties/thirties)

Does anyone know the original line used by Teach and what it means?

Razh
October 06, 2009, 07:30 PM
I think he spent around 20 years with Whitebeard pirates. Maybe 30, but that's already too much. If he's around 40 now, then it had to be about 20 years.

Poneglyph420
October 07, 2009, 12:12 AM
I think teach says how many tens of year's did I wait.. Referring to his hunt for the Yami Yami no mi.. So Maybe 20 some odd years would be right..
This means Whitebeard has had a long history..
I assume Roger had a good ten or 15 years, he probably made trouble for a long time but was only made famous for his last 4 years or so..

I thought all the IV medication WB had must of had to do with his age and long history.
I'd say WB would indeed be in his 60's or early 70's. He is a legend among men now.

I'm excited to see all his commanders in action.. Especially Ace!

BlackHair
October 07, 2009, 08:26 AM
Garp clearly looked older than Roger in his Roger & Garp jail convo flashback.Imo Smoker is to Luffy just like Garp was to Roger. Since Smoker is older than Luffy, I also think Garp was older than Roger. They grey sideburns in the flashback proofs it I guess.

About Blackbeard I think he is in his late 30s (35-40). So he was probably around two decades on WB's ship.

Of course everything I just posted is just out of my assumption, not like I have any proofs or whatsoever.

kkck
October 07, 2009, 12:27 PM
I would think BB is somewhere between middle 40's and middle 50s.... He does not look anywhere close to 30 IMHO.

BlackHair
October 07, 2009, 09:05 PM
Well it's a manga. Shakky looks like 25 even though she is 40+. I don't think we can actually rate someone's age by look. That's why I tried it with comparison to other characters. But it is impossible after all. We have to wait for Oda's statement.

Shouldn't be BB's age printed in his datebook profile? Edit: Apparently not.

Samui
October 10, 2009, 08:18 AM
Well it's a manga. Shakky looks like 25 even though she is 40+. I don't think we can actually rate someone's age by look. That's why I tried it with comparison to other characters. But it is impossible after all. We have to wait for Oda's statement.

Shouldn't be BB's age printed in his datebook profile? Edit: Apparently not.
You better say Shakky is over 60 years old, because she quited being a Pirate 40 years ago, and that's when Garp chased after her. She can't be 50 years old, because that would make her too young 40 years ago, so she must be aroud 65.

BlackHair
October 11, 2009, 02:41 PM
I was saying 40+. That "+" includes 65 as well. Garp was chasing Shakky 40 years ago. So it's only natural that she must be older than 40.

wildgunz89
October 25, 2009, 10:25 PM
man i want to know WHO IS WB FIRST MATE. dont tell me marco liek everyone does because everytime he is mentioned they say 1st division commander or whatever that is not a 1st mate does anyone know if heh as a 1st mate?????marco is too young btw i think he is more like a "if i die i leave you in charge" kinda position.
[hr]
oh and to add to the age discussion being a pirate makes you look rough and look older take that into consideration ( ex. basketball greg oden=21 google him if anything 2 years in the league.NFL brett favre 39??? 13 years of soo he looks about 50.) my point is your occupation makes you look older or younger . that is why i say bb is probably about 34-38 at best shanks age marco 30 at most lets not let that stubble and sleepy look fool us. jozu..battle hardened i say same age as shanks. my 2 cents.

chess4
October 26, 2009, 12:03 AM
man i want to know WHO IS WB FIRST MATE. dont tell me marco liek everyone does because everytime he is mentioned they say 1st division commander or whatever that is not a 1st mate does anyone know if heh as a 1st mate?????marco is too young btw i think he is more like a "if i die i leave you in charge" kinda position.
<hr noshade size="1">
oh and to add to the age discussion being a pirate makes you look rough and look older take that into consideration ( ex. basketball greg oden=21 google him if anything 2 years in the league.NFL brett favre 39??? 13 years of soo he looks about 50.) my point is your occupation makes you look older or younger . that is why i say bb is probably about 34-38 at best shanks age marco 30 at most lets not let that stubble and sleepy look fool us. jozu..battle hardened i say same age as shanks. my 2 cents.


shanks is 37. i would assume mihawk, marco and jozu are around the same age if not older. i think marco is the 1st mate. he has been standing by WB for most of the fight, and if someone else was his 1st mate this battle would be the time to reveal him.

kkck
October 26, 2009, 01:52 AM
I don't think WB has a definite or absolute first mate. He has 16 divisions and each is lead by a extremely powerful pirate. I would think each commander stands equal in terms of strength and rank to each other(except for WB). At most the only thing that would deferentiate a commanders rank form each other would seem to be seniority but that is by no means official. I guess saying marco is the first mate would be somewhat accurate given everything though.

chess4
October 26, 2009, 06:47 AM
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/552/04-05/

the guys in the upper right hand picture next to WB are some of his other commanders

ZenoArmani
October 26, 2009, 10:49 AM
I read the WB pirates' strength index as generally deciding the order of the commanders, rather than strategic intellect, since some of them don't seem too bright. (Presumably WB makes most of the strategic decisions with help from Marco and non-frontline advisors) Hence Marco, who has the rarest form of DF and is able to fight Kizaru without breaking a sweat is the strongest; Ace, who has a logia/the second strongest from of DF, is the second; Joz, who has the strongest mineral fruit along with immense strength, and is powerful enough to withstand Mihawk's swings or fight two Shishibukai at once is the third; someone I don't remember the fourth; and the master swordsman who fights Mihawk the fifth.

Btw: Which division did the oversized giant lead?

Razh
October 26, 2009, 12:10 PM
Which division did the oversized giant lead?

Oars wasn't a division leader. He has his own pirate crew. You can see his ship on the link. The biggest one that has Oars written on it's top sail next to an Oars-like skull.

http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/551/12-13/

Samui
October 26, 2009, 03:48 PM
Those are Whitebeard's commanders:
http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/525/wbmini.jpg
http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/9585/fishi.jpg

chess4
October 26, 2009, 04:07 PM
Those are Whitebeard's commanders:
http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/525/wbmini.jpg
http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/9585/fishi.jpg

my boy................great pic. you hit the nail on the head. thats them im sure the other 3 have been shown as well, but we just havent pick them out

Samui
October 26, 2009, 05:42 PM
my boy................great pic. you hit the nail on the head. thats them im sure the other 3 have been shown as well, but we just havent pick them out
Oh, I didn't make that picture. Someone on AP made it. But yeah, it IS a great pic.
And maybe the other 3 commanders are the smaller ones we can see on one of the pages, where the commanders are coming out of the ship.

Dice
October 27, 2009, 06:01 AM
Aren't there to many commanders? I thought it would only be 16. Or is someone of them actually one of the shadows and number 8 wasn't included in this picture at first but as it stands there are 17....
But anyway good picture.

Samui
October 27, 2009, 10:44 AM
Aren't there to many commanders? I thought it would only be 16. Or is someone of them actually one of the shadows and number 8 wasn't included in this picture at first but as it stands there are 17....
But anyway good picture.
No, the fishman just wasn't included in that picture. There ARE 16 commanders.

Poneglyph420
October 27, 2009, 12:52 PM
Awesome pic for sure. Do we know for sure how many Commanders there are? I don't remember ever finding that out in the Manga....

If anyone knows I'd be thankful.

But totally think that "chick" in the kimono is a dude...

Samui
October 27, 2009, 02:05 PM
Awesome pic for sure. Do we know for sure how many Commanders there are? I don't remember ever finding that out in the Manga....

If anyone knows I'd be thankful.

But totally think that "chick" in the kimono is a dude...
There are 16 commanders and 1600 men in Whitebeard's fleet. It wasn't said in the databook, but by Oda himself in the SBS if I remember correct and in the databooks.

And what chick in Kimono?

Poneglyph420
October 27, 2009, 02:24 PM
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/553/08-09/

The "woman" in the kimono holding a gun at the bottom of the above page..

If you have a link to your source I'd be appreciative.
Not that that sounds wrong but, sources are always nice.

Also with the loss of Thatch we also have a loss at #4.

It will be interesting to see how the commanders handle the up coming PX attack...
Can they survive, prob most...but maybe not all of them...

Samui
October 27, 2009, 02:49 PM
Oh, you're talking about her. You can barely see her clothes, so I didn't understand about who you were talking about.

And I'll try to find the SBS for you. In the meanwhile, you can just go to One Piece wikia. It's pretty reliable source.

kkck
October 27, 2009, 03:36 PM
There is something I have been wondering for a while and reading through the chapters I think I figured it out. Hancock was a shichibukai basically to protect her people from the WG. Ever since vegapunk developed the technology to navigate the calm belt, the kuja lost the natural protection they lost from it. In other words the island became a big target. An organized attack from the marines would have without question erradicated the kuja. They just needed a decent number of marines along with a high level marine to take boa. In a way, not even a high level marine was needed, just an organized attack where the kuja population would be diminished significantly. For that even a few battleships would suffice. Hell, just a buster call would do the job and they won't even have to worry about hancock. Just take the island when they know hancock is there or when she is far away. All in all, if the WB wanted to erradicate the kuja island, they could do so with little trouble. Specially considering they have only one ship... Boa could probably take out a few battleships or even ifght on par with very high level marines such as VA or admirals but she is the only among the kuja capable of that. Her two sisters are strong but only about comparable to measly rookies such as the supernova. Not even close to the strength they would require to become a significant threat to a marine attack.

Boa is little by little getting into a place where the marines will notice her betrayal. She doesn't even care about it. So how would the kuja protect themselves for the WG? They clearly could not stand up to the marines with just one boat and 1 noteworthy fighter. All in all, boa would require extra help to protect the island.

What I think is that the kuja will at some point become an ally of the WB pirates. Everyone in her crew is very capable of using haki meaning that every member there has the potential to kill an admiral even with something as simple as an arrow(I am not saying they are all admiral level, simply that they have the potential to hurt logia users). WB is powerful enough to provide the kuja with the necessary protection to stop the marines in the same way WB's protection helped the merman island. At least I think there is a very real possibility this will happen in the future.

Razh
October 27, 2009, 03:43 PM
Speaking of Kuya, I believe that their island is defended by some animals too. We've seen that jaguar and the sea serpents. I don't think that it would be that easy for the Marines.

As for your prediction, I've been thinking about it for a long time. Fact is, everyone will have to choose sides after this battle is over. I can't imagine Hancock staying with WG nor can I imagine Amazons sticking with it if something happens to her. If they do ally with someone, it will either be pirates or revolutionaries.

kkck
October 27, 2009, 04:54 PM
The animals would help very little against a marine battleship or a buster call though. They can't even take someone as small, weak and insignificant as luffy(obviously comparing luffy to the strong guys around).... All in all I am inclined to believe the kuja would b mostly defenceless against the WG considering their situation. The kuja's as a crew are strong, I doubt even a number of battleships could take them out without a fight but the island is above all things a big target ready to be taken out by a buster call.

I do think an alliance with the revolutionaries is vastly unlikely. They are significantly different from pirates and I am inclined to believe they would not even approve of such a thing(although dragon had no problem with luffy being a pirate). If boa's treason is found out, the most likely outcome is an alliance with the WB pirates IMO. I mean, even if WB dies a crew with that many people capable of fighting on par with admirals and shichibukai should be feared. And that is just the big shots there, who knows how many rookie level people they have(in other words comparable to the supernova and a few mid level marines). Rockstar seemed to be somewhat of the supernova class(the guy had a 94 mil bounty and the WB pirates could not possibly care less about him) and he was barely a rookie at shanks crew, I would think WB would have a decent number of members like that.

Razh
October 27, 2009, 05:05 PM
The animals would help very little against a marine battleship or a buster call though. They can't even take someone as small, weak and insignificant as luffy(obviously comparing luffy to the strong guys around)....

I was talking more about those sea serpents man. The ones that could pierce the hull of the ship or poison the crew. There could even be some sea king protectors.
I wonder if Haki enables Kuja to communicate with the animals. But, that's a question for a different thread.

Poneglyph420
October 27, 2009, 05:40 PM
Unless someone steps in to help Kuja they could have problems if Boa is found to be disloyal... But I doubt this has anything to do with WB.
He's gonna have a boatload of other problems if he can get out of Marineford alive..

I'd like to see Luffy and Co. do something to save A.L. He did promise he would bring his crew back...and that would make for a great chance.

But back to WB..

Hope he does something soon, or he's in for trouble.....

Bugzee
October 31, 2009, 08:32 PM
I think someone already said it, but i agree anyway! lol

I also think WB original crew consists of some if not all the squad captains, marco and jozu off course! and slowly built on that foundation!

hdiuy
November 01, 2009, 08:00 AM
Didn't read all the post so im not sure if this was brought up. But i want to believe that WB still has his nakama from the old days somewhere in this world. I just can't believe that all of his nakama are dead. I really want to know who his first mate etc is.

kkck
November 01, 2009, 02:21 PM
I think someone already said it, but i agree anyway! lol

I also think WB original crew consists of some if not all the squad captains, marco and jozu off course! and slowly built on that foundation!

That is unlikely IMHO. WB is much older than most people in his crew. I doubt anyone in the actually was a part of WB original crew specially considering most of his commanders seem at least 30 years younger than WB.

Bugzee
November 01, 2009, 02:27 PM
Some of the Squad captains are really old lookin! Well, it would be cool if Oda gave us like a flashback or something about WB's past as a whole!

Black Lagoon
November 01, 2009, 05:37 PM
yes, they are old but still quite powerful, although I guess the supernovas will take their place when time comes.

k-dom
November 27, 2009, 06:10 PM
From chapter 0, it seems that the main captains haven't change much in 20 years...

ZenoArmani
November 28, 2009, 09:30 AM
Yeah, in chapter 0 from 20 years ago, we can see Joz, Vista, Blackbeard, and either Marco or Thatch in the background, but Whitebeard was pretty old even back then. Marco has a Phoenix fruit that may slow down his aging a lot so he could have been even longer with Whitebeard and still look fairly young.

Truefan21
November 28, 2009, 03:00 PM
So BB has been in WB crew for 20 years but how and when did he give shanks those scars

Lord Rayleigh
November 28, 2009, 05:14 PM
So BB has been in WB crew for 20 years but how and when did he give shanks those scars
What is sure is that Shanks got his car between the Ed war and his coming in Fushia Town.

bittman
November 29, 2009, 07:55 AM
What is sure is that Shanks got his car between the Ed war and his coming in Fushia Town.

Oda even skillfully hid Shanks' face during Roger's execution, meaning we don't even know if it was a part of his normal service with the pirate king.

But on the division captains age: I see all this "Where's Whitebeard's original nakama?" And think of two arguments. Firstly, please guess the age of most of the division captains. With chapter 0 now shown, you can easily pin Marco, Joz and Vista as 40 year olds, if not more. Most of the division captains in fact don't look younger than 30, some easily pushing 50.

Secondly: What's to say this isn't the original crew for Whitebeard? Let's say Whitebeard started late as a pirate? What's also not to say that he didn't serve as an underling to another pirate before for a long time and then branched out later to make his own crew? Shanks did that, but he just started at a young age.

I doubt we'll see anything like an "original Whitebeard member", if even a flashback of Whitebeard's beginnings. He appeared old 20 years ago, he appears even older now. At the same time what's to say he started young like Luffy or Shanks?

madmotoristmonk
November 29, 2009, 11:24 PM
i find myself inclined to agree with bittman, however...

we're talking about a setting where people may look thier age i.e. crocus, rayliegh, garp

and then we have those who don't look their (assumed age, proposed age) age i.e. shakky, dr. kureha, aokiji (although his devil fruit may have something to do with that)

urlaub
November 30, 2009, 09:05 AM
Well WBs men could have always been killed by that funny looking guy who handles a psitol and a sword and does it ever so cutely.

Dice
December 06, 2009, 04:54 PM
I reread chapter 552 (this time on onemange) and noticed that Ace became the leader of the second division because they lacked a second division commander.

That means two things:
First there has been a strong person who was the second commander some time ago. If this person is still alive is unclear (if this person is still alive I guess we definitely will hear who was the second before). Furthermore it means that Ace is not necessarily the second strongest after Whitebeard since he's only filling a gap.

If that has already been discussed just ignore it :D

Razh
December 06, 2009, 06:24 PM
I reread chapter 552 (this time on onemange) and noticed that Ace became the leader of the second division because they lacked a second division commander.


Can't believe it. I was reading the same chapter earlier today and I intended to raise the question about the former 2nd division commander here.
Talk about synchronicity.:p

The person could have died, or maybe retired. There are a lot of possibilities. It is also possible that it's not really that important, but I don't think so.

Fox666
December 06, 2009, 07:15 PM
I guess Whitebears is 65 and his crew members 45. That would put Marco and Jozu 25 at the Flashback and Whitebeard 45.

Would make sense for me. Whitebeard would only have become a Yonkou later. Shanks is also not that young (37). It may take a long time to conquer a crew like those.

Hmm, was it implied during Whitebeard and Shanks that Mihawk was from Whitebeard crew? That possible. If that's so, he could be the former 2nd commander.

Razh
December 06, 2009, 07:52 PM
I guess Whitebears is 65 and his crew members 45. That would put Marco and Jozu 25 at the Flashback and Whitebeard 45.

Would make sense for me. Whitebeard would only have become a Yonkou later. Shanks is also not that young (37). It may take a long time to conquer a crew like those.

Hmm, was it implied during Whitebeard and Shanks that Mihawk was from Whitebeard crew? That possible. If that's so, he could be the former 2nd commander.

I don't think Shanks is younger than Marco. At least not that much.
Whitebeard only said that he heard of the duel between Shanks and Mihawk. If Mihawk was a Whitebeard pirate he probably left a while ago. Judging from Whitebeard's speech, the duel happened after Mihawk already left his crew (that's assuming Mihawk was a Whitebeard pirate). If Mihawk was in his crew at that time, he probably wouldn't just say that he heard about it.
That would have been more than 10 years ago, because around 10 years ago Shanks lost an arm. If Mihawk was a 2nd squad captain, then the post would have been empty for quite a long time. It's a slim chance the way I see it.

Plus, the way Mihawk spoke when he was about to slash at Whitebeard doesn't point to some past connection. I don't think he would talk like that if he was a member of the crew. Not much was said in the short exchange against Vista. Vista was even surprised that Mihawk heard of him.

Anyway, all that by itself still doesn't remove the possibility that Mihawk was Whitebeard pirate long ago. But it does remove the possibility that he was the former 2nd squad commander. Unless it's totally believable that the spot was left open for years.

Lewyn
December 07, 2009, 04:02 AM
No proof to support it, but it would be awesome if the former second division commander was Fisher Tiger, who left the crew to free the slaves and then became the captain of the sun pirates (and maybe allied with the WBs).
Against this theory the facts he's called "the adventurer"(synonymous of lonely?) and there was no reference to WB in Boa's tale.

zagorka
December 07, 2009, 04:08 AM
Really? You think WB is around the age of 65? I'd say he's more like in his early 80's. He has white hair from his depiction in Chapter 0. I think it's reasonable to say he's around 80 years old. He may age differently based on the fact that he's sort of a giant, but not really a giant. Just an abnormally large human.

LoS
December 07, 2009, 04:21 AM
I have always chalked him up as older than Roger and at Shakky and Garp's age.

kkck
December 07, 2009, 04:24 AM
Really? You think WB is around the age of 65? I'd say he's more like in his early 80's. He has white hair from his depiction in Chapter 0. I think it's reasonable to say he's around 80 years old. He may age differently based on the fact that he's sort of a giant, but not really a giant. Just an abnormally large human.

I think this was already discussed lol. WB is at least as old as gold roger was(not a day younger IMHO). Given brooks comment at shakky's bar it seems like roger was a rookie 50 years ago. Now, a rookie, in the same sense as a supernova, would have to be at least at around 18 years of age. In that sense, roger and WB in the current timeline would be no less than 68 years old. Granted, WB could be older than that. That seems quite right for raileights age though.

Razh
December 07, 2009, 06:02 AM
He has white hair from his depiction in Chapter 0.

How can you be sure, that his hair is white? It's black and white manga after all. Not much liberty with colors...

Lord Rayleigh
December 07, 2009, 03:32 PM
I don't think he would talk like that if he was a member of the crew. Not much was said in the short exchange against Vista. Bista was even surprised that Mihawk heard of him.
You got a good point here. Vista was shown in the Strong Word : Chapter 0 to be a WB pirate 20 years ago. Then, if Mihawks had been the 2nd commander of WB, it would be impossible for Vista to be surprised that Mihawks heard about him. And that is obvious Mihawks can't have been a WB pirate before that (time issue) : Mihawk was very young 20 years ago and Vista wasn't a new WB pirate (he was already standing near WB).

beastboy
December 07, 2009, 07:35 PM
I don't know why.. but I always put WB at around the same age that Dr.Kureha xD.. around his 120 years..
He is free and lives happy.. isn't that what is needed for a long life.. so he can live that long..
Marco must be around shanks age, jozz must be 3 years older (putting marco 17 years old at that time, and jozz 20), Vista must be around 45 years old..

ps:I think WB is that old cause a 37 year old person looks like marco, and shanks, so WB should be in his 60's at least.. 20 years ago.. but he wouldn't be dying so young.. so I would put him 100 years ar lest, by the time this war is happening..!

Marco:37
Jozz:40
Vista:45
WB: 100~120

Thats how I would put it! xD

Fox666
December 08, 2009, 12:06 AM
Well, Shanks in Chapter 0 looked like a boy, while Marco was pretty much like now.

About Whitebeard's age, hmm, he doesn't seem that old for me. Maybe 70's, but 80 is too much.

Samui
December 08, 2009, 12:16 AM
Really? You think WB is around the age of 65? I'd say he's more like in his early 80's. He has white hair from his depiction in Chapter 0. I think it's reasonable to say he's around 80 years old. He may age differently based on the fact that he's sort of a giant, but not really a giant. Just an abnormally large human.
Hm, no. Today Whitebeard's hair is brown, so I wouldn't say that his hair was white 20 years ago.

Bugzee
December 08, 2009, 01:14 AM
Whether WB is 60, 65 or 85+ he bloody moves well for his age! hahahaha :XD

About WB's old crew - some may have disbanded, some obviously may have been killed in battle against Roger or even Sengoku?? (Its been stated that they've fought in the past) Well, just a thought anyway!

I personally think Roger was younger then WB imo.


and...WTF I can't ever see Mihawk being part of WB's crew in the past. Just doesn't sound right to me. There shouldn't be too much of a age gap between Shanks & Marco imo.

Poneglyph420
December 10, 2009, 03:43 AM
Wb would indeed be Roger's senior IMO. I don't see how we could ever know their ages without an SBS to confirm..

I also agree with Jinbei that Mihawk as a WB pirate sounds off...
I'd hope he'd not need anyone... He's too cool for that..

Dice
December 10, 2009, 05:55 PM
Can't believe it. I was reading the same chapter earlier today and I intended to raise the question about the former 2nd division commander here.
Talk about synchronicity.:p

The person could have died, or maybe retired. There are a lot of possibilities. It is also possible that it's not really that important, but I don't think so.

Yeah things like that are kinda strange. Isn't there a kind of 'law' that says something like that? I think I read somewhere that there were many inventions made almost at the same by different people in different places in the world without any knowledge of the other.

But back to topic:
So Mihawk was definitly never a member of Whitebeard's crew.
A thing that came to my mind right now: What if Kaidou or the unknown Yonkou were the second division commander? The seat would have been empty for quite some time but strenght-wise it could fit. Furthernore I thought about Shanks being an ex-member of Roger and now being a Yonkou. So the possibility that someone of WB's crew could be a Yonkou aswell is not that farfetched.
Althogether it is still a bit farfetched but I thought about a person that could have a role as the story progress and a person we know (well kind of :D).
At least it's a possiblity.


On Whitebeard's age: I always thought that he is past his early 60s at least. Around 70-75 maybe while Marco is around 38-43 just like Shanks.
I don't think that Whitebeard is over 9000 100 year's old.

Dark God Zeus
October 16, 2010, 11:24 AM
So here we have the largest (?) pirate crew in the world, and potentially the strongest pirate crew in the world.

Whitebeard himself: In the battle at Marineford, he did the following things.
1. Hit aokiji with a normal quake attack, shattering him, only for him to reform.
2. Took out Ronse with one or two attacks (vice admiral)
3. Took out John Giant with an attack
4. Hit aokiji again....no damage
5. did one quake hit to akainu....he still got up and did much more damage to whitebeard
6. Didn't do anything to Kizaru....
7. Does some decent damage against blackbeard

And his top commanders
Marco
1. tied with one hit against kizaru
2. fought aokiji
3. Got a small hit against akainu

Jozu
1. Takes mihawk's slash
2. Does damage against crocodile and aokiji
3. Gets his shit rocked by aokiji

Vista
1. Held his ground against Mihawk
2. Did some damage to akainu
3. Blocked a giant's attack

Ace
1. Tied with aokiji
2. Tied with Jinbei before
3. Tied with Smoker (kind of)
4. Bested by Blackbeard, doing some damage.

So...more or less with have a couple slight victories, with the most part showing the whitebeard pirates can hold their own....but is that really enough to be called one of the most powerful pirate crews in the world? They didn't take down or heavily injure a shichibukai, or an admiral, at best they only took out a couple VAs, and hundreds/thousands of fodder marines.

The Don Master T
October 16, 2010, 11:33 AM
So here we have the largest (?) pirate crew in the world, and potentially the strongest pirate crew in the world.

Whitebeard himself: In the battle at Marineford, he did the following things.
1. Hit aokiji with a normal quake attack, shattering him, only for him to reform.
2. Took out Ronse with one or two attacks (vice admiral)
3. Took out John Giant with an attack
4. Hit aokiji again....no damage
5. did one quake hit to akainu....he still got up and did much more damage to whitebeard
6. Didn't do anything to Kizaru....
7. Does some decent damage against whitebeard

And his top commanders
Marco
1. tied with one hit against kizaru
2. fought aokiji
3. Got a small hit against akainu

Jozu
1. Takes mihawk's slash
2. Does damage against crocodile and aokiji
3. Gets his shit rocked by aokiji

Vista
1. Held his ground against Mihawk
2. Did some damage to akainu
3. Blocked a giant's attack

Ace
1. Tied with aokiji
2. Tied with Jinbei before
3. Tied with Smoker (kind of)
4. Bested by Blackbeard, doing some damage.

So...more or less with have a couple slight victories, with the most part showing the whitebeard pirates can hold their own....but is that really enough to be called one of the most powerful pirate crews in the world? They didn't take down or heavily injure a shichibukai, or an admiral, at best they only took out a couple VAs, and hundreds/thousands of fodder marines.

just form what you wrote you should know they are not weak as the people that they were up against were able to beat or top luffy and his crew admirals are very powerful people in op world and aren't push overs so to do what they did against them and the shichibukai and be able to walk away with out fatal wounds is a feat in it self

shinsengumi
October 16, 2010, 11:34 AM
IMO the reason why they are called one of the most powerful pirate crews is because there isnt any others to do any better(except 3 other yonkou crews) .
the captain himself facing the whole army on his own , vice captains going on par with admirals and even a 3. seat confronting a shichibukai .. i accept that it could be way cooler if they could win in the end but still these are no small feats to be underestimated

Fox666
October 16, 2010, 12:26 PM
Well, it's quite simple... we have the balance of the three great powers, the three factors that rule the world. The Marines, the Shichibukai and the Yonkou. And a rule over the Yonkou is that they are prohibited to make any alliance with each other.

So even the most powerfull pirate crew (which by the way is the Whitebeard pirates) cannot handle alone one of these factors...

外国人
October 16, 2010, 03:45 PM
Yes, the Whitebear Pirates do seem to be rather weak, however, the Whitebeard Pirates are still a very strong pirate crew.

natli
October 16, 2010, 03:51 PM
@ Dark God Zeus
What you've summed up is a fight between one crew and the rest of the world. It's pretty damn amazing they could hold their own :D Only Luffy can win with the world, but that's Luffy for you.

MaiSiaoSiao
October 16, 2010, 06:58 PM
It was revealed that WhiteBeard's health wasn't as good as it use to be in his prime.Therefore he couldn't dodge the attack by squardo and got stabbed,i think through the chest.Now even a monster would feel the pain not to say a human being.And as for the admirals,they're all Logias whereas WhiteBeard is a Paramecia.And you need to consider the fact that Whitebeard is already an old man + an old man who got stabbed right through the chest but still rampaged through the battlefield...

As for the commanders,its true that they either tied or got froze by an admiral.But thats predictable.IF a commander were to take down an admiral, wouldn't that gives us an impression that the admirals are just there for show.And their title as the Navy's Strongest Power is just a hoax?

zerocooldx
October 16, 2010, 07:28 PM
None of the WB Division Commanders actually had real 1 vs 1 fights. So it's definitely had to judge just how strong they are. But clearly they aren't on the level of an Admiral. I would say that the top few Division Commanders, such as Marco, Joz and Vista, are at the very least on the level of a Vice Admiral.

kkck
October 16, 2010, 07:38 PM
The commanders shown were for the most part very proficient haki users and more than a match for the admirals and people like mihawk. How can they be weak in the least? Or at least weak in comparison to whom? Do you remember the ease with which kizaru took the supernova and the strawhats? In particular how the very possibility of them fighting back was non existent? They are not weak in the least.

zerocooldx
October 16, 2010, 11:16 PM
The commanders shown were for the most part very proficient haki users and more than a match for the admirals and people like mihawk. How can they be weak in the least? Or at least weak in comparison to whom? Do you remember the ease with which kizaru took the supernova and the strawhats? In particular how the very possibility of them fighting back was non existent? They are not weak in the least.

The Division Commanders were not more then a match for the Admirals. lolz Give me a break. Aokiji took out Joz seemingly without even breaking a sweat. And Marco was being teased and taunted by Kizaru while they fought. Then later on both Marco and Vista, attacking at the same time, couldn't even put a scratch on Akainu. As a matter of fact as far as i recall none of the Division Commanders were able to use their Haki to even inflict actual damage to any the Admirals. And Vista simply locking swords with Hawkeyes and being recognized by him means absolutely nothing. Everyone at some point crossed paths with everyone else in the war. The only difference is that if the characters had fought for long enough a clear and decisive winner would have been decided. No the top Division Commanders, Marco, Joz and Vista, are not weak by any means. But they couldn't hold a candle to an Admiral or Hawkeyes had they had an actual battle against them. So to me the top Division Commanders are, at the very least, on a similar level as Vice Admirals. Which in no way makes them weak.

kkck
October 16, 2010, 11:54 PM
How do you know aokiji did not break a sweat? We saw the final moments of the match only, that is not to say aokiji had an easy time. Marco also took a few hard hits without his ability at some point and he still kept fighting.

zerocooldx
October 17, 2010, 12:41 AM
How do you know aokiji did not break a sweat? We saw the final moments of the match only, that is not to say aokiji had an easy time. Marco also took a few hard hits without his ability at some point and he still kept fighting.

At the end of the war the only Admiral who had literally taken any real damage was Akainu, which was directly from WB himself. While Kizaru and Aokiji were literally unscathed (http://read.mangashare.com/One-Piece/chapter-580/page007.html). And even Hawkeyes seemed to ve pretty much untouched (http://read.mangashare.com/One-Piece/chapter-580/page009.html) as well. Yet Joz was frozen solid and apparently detached from his arm. And Marco took a few laser beams through the chest and both he and Vista had some cuts and bruises and what not. Point being is that there is no real argument to be made that the top WB Division Commanders are even in the same league as the Admirals. If that were true then this war would have definitely turned out much differently. Comparing the top Division Commanders to the Vice Admirals is far more appropriate and even a complement of sorts. Because the VA's went through the war with reliantly little if any injuries themsevles. And were, along with the Admirals, the only Marines on the battle field to withstand (http://read.mangashare.com/One-Piece/chapter-566/page014.html) WB's quakes without too much effort.

kkck
October 17, 2010, 12:57 AM
How do you know they had not taken any damage? Certainly akainu had taken the most damage but we have no reason to believe the other admirals had not taken damage. If I recall, jozu gave aokiji a good hit and marco overpowered kizaru at the beginning of the war for a bit. Not to mention the marines in general had the advantage, they had prepared the entire place for the way. It was the WB pirates in general who had to break through everything the marines had.

Fox666
October 17, 2010, 02:12 AM
Aokiji was bleeding after Aokiji attack. And precisely that page doesn't show a injure on Aokiji face?

Of course, he was took by surprise while fighting Whitebeard. So I wouldn't take that hit in count, since later Aokiji displayed great superiority.

However, the Vice-Admirals were quite incompetent. And Momonga seems to need a lot of effort to keep his feet on grounp after Whitebeard quake. I wouldn't compare Marco or Jozu to them (to say the truth I think that they eat Vice-Admirals in the breakfast).

kulugo
October 17, 2010, 02:49 AM
marines > WB
wb + other yonkou = marines + shichi

if this were to happen
WB > marines
then it is not balanced.
therefore
admirals > wb commanders
i guess..

St Michael
October 17, 2010, 06:48 AM
Aokiji was bleeding after Aokiji attack. And precisely that page doesn't show a injure on Aokiji face?

Of course, he was took by surprise while fighting Whitebeard. So I wouldn't take that hit in count, since later Aokiji displayed great superiority.


Jozu was defeated by surprise too ..

And Marco was double teamed by Kizaru + Doberman with Kairouseki.

How weak they are ..

happy GIN smily
October 17, 2010, 07:15 AM
it was obvious that the WB-pirates could not win that battle. and it was also obvious that WB had to die for the "New Era"

but what dissapointed me, was the fact that besides of Jozu, Marco and Vista, no single Commander was worth to be remembered. they were only posing arround on many panels. and in the end none of them showed any power. just posing is not enough

kkck
October 17, 2010, 10:22 AM
Aokiji was bleeding after Aokiji attack. And precisely that page doesn't show a injure on Aokiji face?

Of course, he was took by surprise while fighting Whitebeard. So I wouldn't take that hit in count, since later Aokiji displayed great superiority.

However, the Vice-Admirals were quite incompetent. And Momonga seems to need a lot of effort to keep his feet on grounp after Whitebeard quake. I wouldn't compare Marco or Jozu to them (to say the truth I think that they eat Vice-Admirals in the breakfast).

When were the VAs shown to be incompetent? We barely even saw them at all. Only one that was shown was John Giant being taken out by WB. We did see momonga and the other guy taking luffy out but I kinda doubt that counts when considering how strong the VAs are supposed to be.
[hr]

it was obvious that the WB-pirates could not win that battle. and it was also obvious that WB had to die for the "New Era"

but what dissapointed me, was the fact that besides of Jozu, Marco and Vista, no single Commander was worth to be remembered. they were only posing arround on many panels. and in the end none of them showed any power. just posing is not enough

I don't think that was obvious at all. The marines had an advantageous position from the start though. They had already prepared marineford for the war and had many traps set in place. The WB pirates had to break through them which was not easy feat.

Lord Rayleigh
October 17, 2010, 10:23 AM
To Dark God Zeus : It is just you :p

Fox666
October 17, 2010, 01:00 PM
wb + other yonkou = marines + shichiThis is actually not true. It's a misunderstand from the chapter where Garp introduce the Yonkou.

What actually happen is Marines = Shichibukai = Yonkou

If you remember Shanks and Whitebeard meeting, the marines were afraid of a contact beetween them. In other words, the Yonkou are prohibited from having alliances.

Of course this means that if the Yonkou were all united they would be superior to the Marines of Shichibukai. But we can' tell how much strong the Yonkou would be or if it would match the power of the two organizations united. Not to say that the Yonkou are enemies of eachother, and the kinds of Shanks and Kaidou seems to have very different ideologies, so a Yonkou alliance is very unlikely.

When were the VAs shown to be incompetent? We barely even saw them at all. Only one that was shown was John Giant being taken out by WB. We did see momonga and the other guy taking luffy out but I kinda doubt that counts when considering how strong the VAs are supposed to be.Yeah, these are 2 against 1. Not to say that Luffy was half-dead without Gear 2.

We barely saw them, but we saw. All we can tell for now is that Doflamingo easily use them as toys and Whitebeard can take down one of them with a single hit. So I don't know what do you mean with "how strong the VAs are supposed to be"... =/

Ashura_Ichibugin
October 17, 2010, 01:20 PM
Jozu was defeated by surprise too ..

And Marco was double teamed by Kizaru + Doberman with Kairouseki.

How weak they are ..

The one that double teamed Marco was Onigumo, not Doberman.

And if assembled forces of marines (+shichi) were beaten by just one pirate crew and its allies, they would be a joke.

They are not weak at all, the strongest crew members can hold their own against an admiral, and I am sure in his prime Whitebeard could beat any of the admirals.

So, probably it is just you.

zerocooldx
October 17, 2010, 01:26 PM
How do you know they had not taken any damage? Certainly akainu had taken the most damage but we have no reason to believe the other admirals had not taken damage. If I recall, jozu gave aokiji a good hit and marco overpowered kizaru at the beginning of the war for a bit. Not to mention the marines in general had the advantage, they had prepared the entire place for the way. It was the WB pirates in general who had to break through everything the marines had.

Simply looking at the Admiral's faces and bodies is a good way to see if they had received any real damage. Especially when everyone else that was around them had blood or bruises on their faces or bodies. Knocking down or breaking apart the Admirals without actually damaging them means nothing. Marco kicked Kizaru and Aokiji yet both were completely unharmed. Even some guy with a spiky ball and chain managed to rip through Kizaru. Luffy and the SH's were able to do the same things when they first fought Aokiji. The main point is that the WB Division Commanders never really harmed the Admirals. There were several instances of the Admirals having their bodies torn apart or knocked down. Crocodile was able to cut Akainu in half, now does that really mean anything? No. Just like Apoo cutting Kizaru in half meant nothing. It all comes down to actual harm being done to the Admirals, and aside from Akainu, Kizaru and Aokiji and even Hawkeyes seemed to he relatively unharmed.

ThunderCrash
October 17, 2010, 02:03 PM
I expected more from them, too. I wanted the heavy weights from the WB pirates to show super-speed, but they moved like any other people in One Piece. I expected Vista to cut in half the island when fighting Mihawk, yet he barely scratched the ice; Doma, Thunderlord, Decalvan and the others were pretty weak too; they should have defeated those low level marines in no time, yet they had a hard time making their way to the scaffold. The only pirates that didn't dissapont me that much were Jozu and Whitebead.

I love One Piece, but I think Oda need some kind of power levels to keep straight this story, or at least to know how to balance the power of the characters. I don't see how Blackbeard without his DF could have stood a fight with Shanks when he barely made it fighting Ace, a guy that didn't withstand Akainu's power, but Shanks did with relatively ease. And this is not a case of a rock-paper-scissors fight like Luffy vs Enel.

St Michael
October 17, 2010, 02:18 PM
Yeah dude , about super speed , Jozu isn't really a slow character and Marco outspeeded Kizaru in the air.

Re-read the chapters..

The rest wasn't weak , they had to make their way through thousands (thousands !) of the strongest marine soldiers.

edit : about the VA : WB pwned a couple of them in no time.
edit 2 : --> http://www.mangafox.com/manga/one_piece/v58/c569/9.html

zerocooldx
October 17, 2010, 03:37 PM
Yeah dude , about super speed , Jozu isn't really a slow character and Marco outspeeded Kizaru in the air.

Re-read the chapters..

The rest wasn't weak , they had to make their way through thousands (thousands !) of the strongest marine soldiers.

edit : about the VA : WB pwned a couple of them in no time.
edit 2 : --> http://www.mangafox.com/manga/one_piece/v58/c569/9.html

None of these (http://www.mangafox.com/manga/one_piece/v57/c553/6.html) VA's were harmed by WB or anyone else really. And they seem to be the "best" VA's, aside from Garp that is. Also the Marines that WB did take out in that link don't seem to be VA's. The only VA's that WB took out i believe were Ronse (http://www.mangafox.com/manga/one_piece/v57/c556/3.html) and John Giant (http://www.mangafox.com/manga/one_piece/v58/c564/8.html). But even between VA's there clearly seems to be a difference in strength.

Haynes
October 17, 2010, 03:47 PM
Although the Vice Admirals are candidates for Admirals, there is a huge gap between power levels. I would put the top comanders of the Whitebeard Pirates above the VA's. Simply because they proved they could fight the Admirals and Shichibukai. The top commanders that we know of are Marco, Ace, Joze, and Vista. Though none of their battles lasted long, I think we can assume the Admirals would have won but it wouldn't have been easy.

St Michael
October 17, 2010, 04:04 PM
None of these (http://www.mangafox.com/manga/one_piece/v57/c553/6.html) VA's were harmed by WB or anyone else really. And they seem to be the "best" VA's, aside from Garp that is. Also the Marines that WB did take out in that link don't seem to be VA's. The only VA's that WB took out i believe were Ronse (http://www.mangafox.com/manga/one_piece/v57/c556/3.html) and John Giant (http://www.mangafox.com/manga/one_piece/v58/c564/8.html). But even between VA's there clearly seems to be a difference in strength.

I insist. Look carefully the link I posted. You'll see that a couple (if not more) of VA are sent flying.

I doubt that WB would pwn opponents as strong as his top captain so easily. VA (minus Garp) are pretty much fodder for him. The same for the admirals and probably for Jozu , Marco and Vista.

zerocooldx
October 17, 2010, 04:55 PM
I insist. Look carefully the link I posted. You'll see that a couple (if not more) of VA are sent flying.

I doubt that WB would pwn opponents as strong as his top captain so easily. VA (minus Garp) are pretty much fodder for him. The same for the admirals and probably for Jozu , Marco and Vista.

I looked at all of those Marines that were sent flying and compared them to all of the known VA's and they don't seem to match up. You can look for yourself here (http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/Vice_Admiral). Either way though the "main" VA's that were shown here (http://www.mangafox.com/manga/one_piece/v57/c553/6.html) with Momonga seem to be fairly strong. At least stronger then the other VA's that got no real face time and were taken out quickly. All of those guys can use Haki plus they know Rokushiki and are undoubtedly master at it. So I compare them to a Haki using and overall stronger version of Lucci. While guys like Marco, Vista and Joz are strong but they never managed to injure or take out anyone worth mentioning throughout the entire war. To me they basically did the same thing as Crocodile. Which was going around and attacking almost everyone but not really managing to do anything significant to anyone important while they themselves still ended up receiving damage.

St Michael
October 17, 2010, 04:59 PM
I recognized Onigumo's (thanks for the one who corrected me :P) helmet. I may be wrong. Maybe.

Anyway , even if they weren't hurt by the end of the war .. I don't see it as a proof of strenght. They basically didn't do anything. Oops , actually they double teamed an exhausted Luffy and Onigumo handcuffed Marco from behind.

The others VA shown in action were pwned , killed or threatened.

Fox666
October 17, 2010, 05:32 PM
Jozu was defeated by surprise too ..

And Marco was double teamed by Kizaru + Doberman with Kairouseki.

How weak they are ..Jozu simple cannot handle Aokiji freezing ability.

Of course when Whitebeard was injured in the chest by Akainu both Marco and Jozu were distracted. But if the moment they look away they are knocked down, that's just show how dangerous the Admirals are.


Also, there are plenty of guys around. Marco also had plenty of guys to assist him. So it was not a 2 vs 1 fight, but a 5.000 vs 5.000 fight, which Marco and Kizaru are part of.

None of these (http://www.mangafox.com/manga/one_piece/v57/c553/6.html) VA's were harmed by WB or anyone else really. And they seem to be the "best" VA's, aside from Garp that is. Also the Marines that WB did take out in that link don't seem to be VA's. The only VA's that WB took out i believe were Ronse (http://www.mangafox.com/manga/one_piece/v57/c556/3.html) and John Giant (http://www.mangafox.com/manga/one_piece/v58/c564/8.html). But even between VA's there clearly seems to be a difference in strength.John Giant?? If there is any difference, I bet that John Giant is STRONGER than the rest.

And by the way, these guys were harmed by someone. At the Shichibukai meeting, you see Doflamingo playing with at least two of them (the mustache guy and the guy behind him). While there is not proof for now, I bet that the other two also are vice-admirals.

http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/3483/69954050.png http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/6955/viceadmirals.png

All of those guys can use Haki plus they know Rokushiki and are undoubtedly master at it. So I compare them to a Haki using and overall stronger version of Lucci. While guys like Marco, Vista and Joz are strong but they never managed to injure or take out anyone worth mentioning throughout the entire war.I won't take Haki in count.

First of all we don't know yet how exactly how Haki works. Second because we can't say who don't has Haki just because they did not used it.

I could argue that Rokushiki is Color of Armament the same way Mantra is pure Color of Observation, and this is what meant saying that the Vice-Admirals use Haki. But I guess a theory won't serve as evidence (for now).

But my point is that Haki is well spread and is not a secret society of any kind:
- Hatchan, good old Arlong subordinate, had knowledge of it;
- The Kuja all use it;
- The Marines elite all can use it;
- At least 4 of the Whitebeard commanders can use it;

So I don't see any reason to say that the kinds of Crocodile or Rob Lucci cannot use it, just because we did not see them using it yet.

bittman
October 17, 2010, 06:04 PM
Well a few things on the power levels:


WB pirates were not disappointing, it's just that they were fighting against the strongest opponents to pirates in the world (marines) plus some very (read: very) powerful pirates (Shichibukai). If anything, the fact that they survived longer than 5 minutes against an army that included the three admirals (all shown to be far greater alone than pre-timeskip Strawhats combined) is a huge indication of their power.
So touched on this above, but they were against admirals. If the WB pirates had trounced these guys, last 50 villains of One Piece would be pirate-pirate-pirate-pirate-pirate-pirate-ex-marine-pirate. Snorefest, no thank you.
The WB Pirates were 1600 strong, the fact the marines had to pull out all their decent fighters and the Shichibukai is a testament to their power. If it was just 1600 fodder plus Whitebeard, send one admiral and battle over.
Annnnd: as with all arguments on vice admirals, they are heavily under-rated. Sure, they have haki, but I'm not even going to look into that. The Vice Admirals are a level below the admirals, that should be a clear indication of their power. There is a gap, won't deny that, but the vice admirals are not weak. I don't believe I saw any WB commanders trump a vice admiral, only Whitebeard himself.
And that scene with Doflamingo: yeah. He's Doflamingo. Tell me what you think Doflamingo would be on the ranking thread and I'll tell you plot-wise he's ultimately going to be a level higher than that at least. Vice Admirals and WB commanders were both playthings for him.

Think that covered everything. Tl;dr: marines are actually (gasp) powerful, WB pirates did good considering, don't underestimate VA's or Doflamingo.

zerocooldx
October 17, 2010, 06:39 PM
Jozu simple cannot handle Aokiji freezing ability.

Of course when Whitebeard was injured in the chest by Akainu both Marco and Jozu were distracted. But if the moment they look away they are knocked down, that's just show how dangerous the Admirals are.


Also, there are plenty of guys around. Marco also had plenty of guys to assist him. So it was not a 2 vs 1 fight, but a 5.000 vs 5.000 fight, which Marco and Kizaru are part of.
John Giant?? If there is any difference, I bet that John Giant is STRONGER than the rest.

And by the way, these guys were harmed by someone. At the Shichibukai meeting, you see Doflamingo playing with at least two of them (the mustache guy and the guy behind him). While there is not proof for now, I bet that the other two also are vice-admirals.

I won't take Haki in count.

First of all we don't know yet how exactly how Haki works. Second because we can't say who don't has Haki just because they did not used it.

I could argue that Rokushiki is Color of Armament the same way Mantra is pure Color of Observation, and this is what meant saying that the Vice-Admirals use Haki. But I guess a theory won't serve as evidence (for now).

But my point is that Haki is well spread and is not a secret society of any kind:
- Hatchan, good old Arlong subordinate, had knowledge of it;
- The Kuja all use it;
- The Marines elite all can use it;
- At least 4 of the Whitebeard commanders can use it;

So I don't see any reason to say that the kinds of Crocodile or Rob Lucci cannot use it, just because we did not see them using it yet.

Size means absolutely nothing in battle and if it did then Oars Jr. would have absolutely rampaged through all of Marineford and owned almost everyone in his path. So yeah i'll take that size bet against you any day of the week. Also not being distracted in battle is a very good indication of someones overall power as well. WB, once he entered the battlefield, never really got distracted and dropped his guard. Yet his "sons" were literally being injured and killed all around him. So it's all on Marco and Joz and any other Division Commander for allowing themselves to be distracted and putting themselves in certain situations in the first place. And what do you mean by "I won't take Haki in count"? Are you serious? Haki is presumably the most powerful weapon that has been shown in the entire manga. And we know how the basics work, because they were explained to us and we saw them used countless times now. So yes i'm going to take a good Haki user over any level of a none Haki user. Just like anyone else probably would.

Also i was talking about those VA's being harmed in the actual war. Because so what Donflamingo messed around with a few VA's? That doesn't show anything at all except that he likes to mess with people. Which we already kind of knew plus he did the very same thing to Joz during the war. And i'm sure that he is way ahead of all of them in terms of power. But thats a whole different story. Also i do see a reason as to why Crocodile and Lucci could not have used Haki. They both faced life and death situations and never showed any signs of Haki use. So if that didn't force them to use Haki then they obviously didn't have the ability to use it. Could they obtain Haki? Sure. But they haven't had it yet. So anyone who is most likely a Rokushiki master and fairly proficient at Haki is definitely a strong induvidual. Not everyone can be on the level of the Admirals or pirates who can match or come lose to matching the Admirals. But at the end of the day the VA's are the Marine's second greatest unit, which is a fairly big deal.

Freid
October 17, 2010, 07:02 PM
Tbh, the whole thing with the Admirals not being harmed is the same reason Doflamingo or Mihawk were not get largely injured during that war. They are going to become the Strawhats major opponents in the future and so it would be weird if they were shown getting wtf pwned by someone else. Their bad ass image would have totally been crushed if we saw them not being so effective against other people. This war in fact was a good way of making them look even more formidable for surviving such a war unscathed. Even if Marco and Jozu were able to fight an admiral equally, which I think they are, Oda would not show us one of the Strawhat's main future opponents being injured by them, cause then our anticipation for the fight would probably decrease. WB injuring Akainu did not have had any effect on Akainu's image though cause firstly its WB, and secondly, the damage he did in return enhanced that image Oda is trying to maintain for all of the Strawhats future major opponents. The Admirals, Doflamingo and Mihawk are obviously not the strongest in the world, but they are still going to be portrayed as formidable all the way up till Luffy and crew deals with them. Oda had no reason to maintain the bad ass image of anyone that wasn't going to be a major part of the future story which is why the pirates side were the ones with the most injuries. Personally, if I had seen an admiral get wtf pwned by someone other than the strongest man in the world in that war, that would instantly minus 5 points from their bad ass image.

I Also think it's extremely silly to say that none of the underlings of a yonkous crew can match an admiral. That would mean, in the New World, WB would be the only one taking out pirates above Vice Admiral? I'm pretty sure that the Admirals wont be the strongest guys in the new world, therefore it would be silly to think that WB was the one handling every opponent that came their way that was over VA level.

Fox666
October 18, 2010, 04:47 AM
Size means absolutely nothing in battle and if it did then Oars Jr. would have absolutely rampaged through all of Marineford and owned almost everyone in his path. So yeah i'll take that size bet against you any day of the week.What was that supposed to mean? Is that just because I said John Giant is stronger than the others?

I don't care about size (do I said anything about Ronse?). John Giant is clearly an authority over the others vice-admirals, since he commanded the Buster Call in Ennies Lobby.

Also not being distracted in battle is a very good indication of someones overall power as well. WB, once he entered the battlefield, never really got distracted and dropped his guard. Yet his "sons" were literally being injured and killed all around him. So it's all on Marco and Joz and any other Division Commander for allowing themselves to be distracted and putting themselves in certain situations in the first place.Certain.

And what do you mean by "I won't take Haki in count"? Are you serious? Haki is presumably the most powerful weapon that has been shown in the entire manga. And we know how the basics work, because they were explained to us and we saw them used countless times now. So yes i'm going to take a good Haki user over any level of a none Haki user. Just like anyone else probably would.We never really saw the Admirals using Haki, except for the shield in the execution platform. Yet they are one of the strongest beings in the series.

The Strawhats already defeated the Priests in Skypeia Arc. Not to say that Sandersonia and Marigold were easily defeated by Luffy.

So I don't think Haki is the strongest thing out there or that it gives such an immense increase of power.


And at most you did not get what I am saying. I am saying that Haki is not a secret society, it's well spread. If even Hatchan heard of it, I can't see how the kinds of Crocodile or Rob Lucci would not knew Haki.

And second, it seems a lot of people end up using it unconscious. Luffy used CoO tons of times (vs Mr. 3, vs CP9, vs Mihawk, etc) without having any idea of what he was doing.

Either way, I don't really think of Haki as an argument in much favor of the Vice-Admirals.

Also i do see a reason as to why Crocodile and Lucci could not have used Haki. They both faced life and death situations and never showed any signs of Haki use. So if that didn't force them to use Haki then they obviously didn't have the ability to use it. Could they obtain Haki? Sure. But they haven't had it yet.Except that almost nobody so far "used" it? Including the Vice-Admirals? We won't knew of the Vice-Admirals Haki hadn't the marine doctor said so.

Why didn't John Giant and Ronse used it in an almost certain death situation? That mean they don't know it?

Crocodile automatic Logia defense as CoO, anyone?

Tbh, the whole thing with the Admirals not being harmed is the same reason Doflamingo or Mihawk were not get largely injured during that war. They are going to become the Strawhats major opponents in the future and so it would be weird if they were shown getting wtf pwned by someone else. Their bad ass image would have totally been crushed if we saw them not being so effective against other people. This war in fact was a good way of making them look even more formidable for surviving such a war unscathed. Even if Marco and Jozu were able to fight an admiral equally, which I think they are, Oda would not show us one of the Strawhat's main future opponents being injured by them, cause then our anticipation for the fight would probably decrease. WB injuring Akainu did not have had any effect on Akainu's image though cause firstly its WB, and secondly, the damage he did in return enhanced that image Oda is trying to maintain for all of the Strawhats future major opponents.Sorry, but do you notice that you basically saying something like "they are not strong as they looks, the author showed they doing strong people things just because he wanted us to think they are strong"?

If we go deep on that argument, we will never find any answer, right? ;)

I Also think it's extremely silly to say that none of the underlings of a yonkous crew can match an admiral. That would mean, in the New World, WB would be the only one taking out pirates above Vice Admiral? I'm pretty sure that the Admirals wont be the strongest guys in the new world, therefore it would be silly to think that WB was the one handling every opponent that came their way that was over VA level.In my opinion, if an Admirals was a pirate, he certain would be able to become Yonkou.

It's not like they are invencible. Marco is strong, he, along with Jozu, have chances of defeating an Admiral. Not to say that in One Piece the "environment" can define the result of a battle.

It's just that there aren't many beings in the World that can defeat them in a 1x1.

Freid
October 18, 2010, 07:13 AM
Nah I'm not saying that they are not as strong as they look, its more like the pirates are not as weak as they look. There was no way during that war we were ever going to see the admirals, Mihawk and Doflamingo suffer the same treatment as the WB pirates. If someone had beaten them up so early, the anticipation for their battle with the Strawhats would most certainly have decreased. Oda won't have his future major antagonists look weak before their encounter against the strawhats. Oda knows how to raise our anticipation for a fight which most of the time involves making the opponent look as badass as possible. Imagine during CP9 arc, if we saw a flashback of Rob luchi getting wtf pwned by someone else in the past. Instead Oda made a flashback to even increase enhance his image and also create excitement when Luffy finally beats him. To us, we would feel like Luffy was the first guy to ever beat him. Oda even made a VA praise Rob Luchi which again was a way to enhance his image. We have already seen that Oda does certain things in order to make people look bad ass. I'm not taking anything away from the admirals strength, Its simply that the plot was not in Marco or Jozu's favour. Oda made them look bad ass for sometime but afterwards it wasn't nessecary. I'm just bringing in a different approach to the debate cause debating about what happened in the war is pretty boring. You would find that allot of the time, views on things could change when you don't actually look into what happened in the manga, and rather used manga logic or look into why Oda may have done things that way.

Also its silly to say the admirals are as strong as a yonkou. What does that make Garp, Sengoku and possibly Kong. So basically in the war, the marines were up against one yonkou level pirate, whilst the pirates were up against five yonkou level marines. I think you are underminding the strength of a yonkou. The fact that only four of them is all it takes to rule the New World speaks for itself. Again, I don't think the admirals would be the strongest in the new world and so its silly to think WB was the only one taking out levels above VA. Or is everyone in the New World VA level.

redred
October 18, 2010, 09:34 AM
Without making this into an overcomplicated post about who is stronger than who, I'll simply say that its not that the whitebeard pirates are weak. Its just that the WG is stronger.
ofc when you put anybody who calls themselves the best against someone who is better, youre gonna see the loser as a weakling.
now put the whitebeard crew against any other crew that we have seen thus far and ask yourself if they still seem rather weak.

Jorge D. Dragon
October 18, 2010, 01:21 PM
For me it's clear: WB pirates are not weak. I expected a bit more from them, but guys, they were fighting against the army of the best elite soldiers of Marine and Shichibukais, so it's rather obvious that their opponent is stronger. It was a bit of suicide. Also WB himself was in a bad state, so he also could have done more and also he was stabbed by his comrade and it was the main problem of WB pirates, cause it played the most important role in this war. Also Ace played dumb when he didn't get back and tried to challenge Akainu. WB pirates could have won. They were really the strongest crew and even now they are really strong.

I'd like to say that it's not right to understimate vice admirals. They are really strong, they have haki and have great experience. The majority of them were vice admirals during Roger's time, so it's obvious that they are really tough. Only two of them were taken out and it was performed by WB himself, so it's obvious that they are strong and that they are not vice admirals for nothing. We will see them for sure in near future as important players. Even after the time-skip I think that they would be tough opponents even for Luffy and Zoro, not saying about other crew members.

kulugo
November 08, 2010, 12:11 AM
so who gets to claim WB and Ace's bounty?

kkck
November 08, 2010, 12:20 AM
BB and akainu I guess? Akainu could have made a pretty penny for himself if he does get bounties from killing pirates during the war.

St Michael
November 08, 2010, 02:49 PM
I'm pretty sure marines haven't access to the bounty. If they do , Sakazuki is among the wealthiest men in the world. :darn

zerocooldx
November 08, 2010, 03:56 PM
I fully expect the WB pirates such as Marco, Joz, and Vista to have gotten stronger over the last two years. And the reason i believe that is because now the WB pirates have actually had to engage in real combat to defend all of WB's territories. While WB was alive i don't see how anyone in their right mind would really ever challenge them on any type of a regular basis. Maybe they had battles once every few years or something, but no one would really challenge the WB pirates because of WB. But now the tables have basically changed with WB's death and i'm sure that a lot of pirates will try to be the ones to crush the WB pirates and take their territories. So i am looking forward to seeing how many battles the WB pirates have engaged in and how much stronger they have grown as a result of that.

scav
November 08, 2010, 04:26 PM
If we only count strong people during the war, let's say its was:
WB, marco, joz, vista, jimbei,ivankov on one side VS 3 admirals, shichibukais, BB crews, garp & sengoku. So for me WB pirates lost cuz they had too many opponements, not cuz they are weak or something. And they were unprepared when sengoku had a really good plan. for me marco, joz and vista and really strong, specially marco ( they even said only him or one yonkou can defeat BB). i think they disbanded the crew since WB is dead, but we will saw them again (marco,joz,vista) and somehow they will help SH again.
And Marco is amazing, at the beginning of the war, he had a 1 vs 1 against kizaru and kizaru couldn't do anything

DEATHBOTT
November 08, 2010, 05:03 PM
I fully expect the WB pirates such as Marco, Joz, and Vista to have gotten stronger over the last two years. And the reason i believe that is because now the WB pirates have actually had to engage in real combat to defend all of WB's territories. While WB was alive i don't see how anyone in their right mind would really ever challenge them on any type of a regular basis. Maybe they had battles once every few years or something, but no one would really challenge the WB pirates because of WB. But now the tables have basically changed with WB's death and i'm sure that a lot of pirates will try to be the ones to crush the WB pirates and take their territories. So i am looking forward to seeing how many battles the WB pirates have engaged in and how much stronger they have grown as a result of that.

ace challenged him. and it also said that ace fought doma and then doma showed up in the war as an ally. i think thats how wb gets allies. he sends his commanders out to fight them. after they lose he ofers them a place as his ally. if his commander is beaten then he probabaly goes himself but that probably never happens. but yeah i would say people would have challeneged the wb pirates heaps. new comers like ace looking to prove themselves or old enemies like crocodile looing for payback.

kkck
November 08, 2010, 07:20 PM
I think the WB pirates were in a general disadvantage when they fought the marines. Both forces gathered all the military might they could but there was one thing the WB pirates could do nothing about. They fought in the enemies home turf and the marines made sure to take that to their advantage at every plausible chance. Seriously, just look at the sheer amount of traps the marines had set up. A huge iron wall which not even WB could break which basically allowed akainu to bomb the pirates to his whim, strategically placed cannons at every corner, a small army of expendable cyborgs. Above that, the pirates had to tank through all of this to save ace. The war was not really fought on even ground at least IMO. Each commander had to fight several enemies to boot. Marco fought aokiji and akainu at different points, jozu had to deal with crocodile, flamingo, a short skirmish with mihawk, and aokiji, vista dealt with mihawk and who knows who else. We saw a couple of commander dealing with other shichibukai too. Lets see the marines fighting WB at his turf and see what happens. There is a reason the marines waited to have a chance to lure WB into an all out war where they could set the conditions.

DEATHBOTT
November 08, 2010, 11:24 PM
I think the WB pirates were in a general disadvantage when they fought the marines. Both forces gathered all the military might they could but there was one thing the WB pirates could do nothing about. They fought in the enemies home turf and the marines made sure to take that to their advantage at every plausible chance. Seriously, just look at the sheer amount of traps the marines had set up. A huge iron wall which not even WB could break which basically allowed akainu to bomb the pirates to his whim, strategically placed cannons at every corner, a small army of expendable cyborgs. Above that, the pirates had to tank through all of this to save ace. The war was not really fought on even ground at least IMO. Each commander had to fight several enemies to boot. Marco fought aokiji and akainu at different points, jozu had to deal with crocodile, flamingo, a short skirmish with mihawk, and aokiji, vista dealt with mihawk and who knows who else. We saw a couple of commander dealing with other shichibukai too. Lets see the marines fighting WB at his turf and see what happens. There is a reason the marines waited to have a chance to lure WB into an all out war where they could set the conditions.

if they didn't have to save ace wb could have just sank the island. i still wonder how anyone including roger could fight wb at sea. must be haki to the max degree.

kkck
November 09, 2010, 12:12 AM
I don't think it was haki alone. For one thing, WB himself had haki and even the conqueror's haki. I don't think roger would have held that over WB. It is within the realm of possibilities that roger was a melee fighter or a swordsman with no fruit but IMO having a fruit would make him a lot more interesting and better explain how he opposed WB and reached the top of the world.

DEATHBOTT
November 09, 2010, 03:31 AM
I don't think it was haki alone. For one thing, WB himself had haki and even the conqueror's haki. I don't think roger would have held that over WB. It is within the realm of possibilities that roger was a melee fighter or a swordsman with no fruit but IMO having a fruit would make him a lot more interesting and better explain how he opposed WB and reached the top of the world.
maybe something like what the admirals used to protect the stand. though that still wouldnt stop a tidal wave.


on a side note, whitebeard must have been quite old by the time he started his crew in order to have a large enough mustache to name it after him and have it on his jolly roger. unless he changed it later on. same with roger, his mustache on his flag is massive. surly he didnt have that when he started his crew especially seeing him as a kid when he asked rayleigh to join. though wb did look pretty old in that flashback he had when he died and had no mo. im actually quite suprised there arnt many old members in his crew like rayleigh. you think they all died or they were really young like shanks or something.

St Michael
November 09, 2010, 04:23 PM
I think that we don't know how old is Marco , Jozu and Vista ;)

They seemed like already important crewmembers 20 years ago. Maybe they are like 50 by now. Espicially Marco .. I suspect his fruit to prevent him from time :eyeroll

kkck
November 09, 2010, 04:52 PM
I don't think they are in their 50s though. Based on what we have seen with ace and luffy, they could have been important crewmembers in their early 20s. I mean, ace was a commander at a young age and luffy can one shot a pacifista now so it would not be that strange if their strength was considerable at such a young age.

St Michael
November 09, 2010, 05:08 PM
I feel like Ace was kinda an exception. Son of Roger , WB planing to make him the PK , etc.

Plus the commander seat was empty , if not , he (imo) would have been waiting in a lambda division or under another commander authority.

-Ken-
November 09, 2010, 10:14 PM
I just wanna see Whitebeard pirates at its full power. Whitebeard not sick, the old 2nd commander is still not dead/gone, whichever one it is. 4th commander is still there. If that's the case, marine vs whitebeard pirates will be much more amazing.

kkck
November 09, 2010, 11:03 PM
^The old second commander seems to have been gone since before ace even joined the WB pirates though. Not sure whether it would be relevant to bring him if ace had his post legitimately. WB at his fulls strength would have been epic though, even an admiral would not have stood in his way.... On the other hand we have to also consider sengoku and garp took a largely observational role during the war. They were not actually involved in most of the fighting that took place. Garp only stopped marco from getting to ace and sengoku only got involved against BB and when he tried to stop luffy from fighting.

chess4
November 26, 2010, 03:52 PM
marco will be the leader of the crew. they may have a few addition as commanders to take the places left by ace, thatch, and marco's postion.

Channy
November 26, 2010, 07:20 PM
marco will be the leader of the crew. they may have a few addition as commanders to take the places left by ace, thatch, and marco's postion.

Maybe after the funeral some of the Whitebeard pirates will not want to be pirates any more and they'll wanna to the love and compassion that no one else besides Whitebeard showed and go off and satart families and i also think that some of the commanders will stick together such as MArco, Jozu, and vista will go and start their own crews and form a pirate fleet based on the ideals of Whitebeard but i don't think they'll be called the Whitebeard pirates anymore

chess4
November 26, 2010, 08:13 PM
Maybe after the funeral some of the Whitebeard pirates will not want to be pirates any more and they'll wanna to the love and compassion that no one else besides Whitebeard showed and go off and satart families and i also think that some of the commanders will stick together such as MArco, Jozu, and vista will go and start their own crews and form a pirate fleet based on the ideals of Whitebeard but i don't think they'll be called the Whitebeard pirates anymore

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/one_piece/v58/c594/2.html

if you read this page, one of the gorousei make a remark about marco and the remnant of the WB pirates. i think that was a bit of foreshadow on oda's part