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Pavitre
September 28, 2009, 06:30 PM
The discussion just started and plz give your opinions as to who will in this fight between them, I knoiw there hasn't been much shown by both of them but judge by the amount they have been shown and the potential or hype that has been generated.

Personally I think Aizen would own

En Yang Ji
September 28, 2009, 06:41 PM
I think Urahara is on Aizen's level. Urahara, Gin and Aizen were the only geniuses shown 100 years ago. Back than Gin imo was around a VC's level, Aizen was probably captain level and Urahara was a captain. They had 110 years to improve so I think, all of them are above Shunsui level.

_ATMA
September 28, 2009, 08:03 PM
what is fearsome about Urahara and Aizen is both of their abilities to analyze their opponents abilities both of them are on equal grounds i think but aizen is more of a chess master while urahara is more of an idea genius

El Samurai Guapo
September 28, 2009, 10:33 PM
Well if there is anyone that could come up with a way to counter Kyouka Suigetsu's hypnotism it would be Urahara Kisuke.

deanmilanov
September 29, 2009, 03:35 AM
I think Urahara will win, but by no means will it be an easy victory. Aizen claims to have reached the max height of soul power, but I think he's boasting. Even 2nd squad's vice-captain was able to withstand the pressure/how he made grimjaw bow is a mystery./. He's not so fast as Yoruichi or Soifon, and he did not master all the kidos ,he stated the 90th hadou against Komamura to be a failure. Of course this could mean he actually reached the max power of that 90th hadou at one time. I haven't seen any hand to hand combat, but stopping wounded and exhausted Ichigo was still quite a feat. After obtaining the Hougyoku he might have transformed himself into a vizard, we'll see later on. Aizen relies on his zanpakto too much. The reason he was able to strike Hitsu and the fox was because they were under the hypnosis. All in all, he is strong and smart, also the main villain, so it gives him some immunity against all except for the protagonist.
Urahara on the other hand is more of a man of science. He said Ichigo's battle potencial is above his, but going by Aizen sending out Ulq to check things out, same goes for the former 5th division captain. The reason I chose Urahara is not because he's so strong or fast, it's because he's ingenious and has all those gadgets. He most likely also knows how to seal a bankai in an enclosed area(or even shikai!), and even if he didn't he could just invent a sensory net, cast it around himself and thus locate enemies. That last one was a little odd, I know. My point is he was and maybe still is inventing so much great stuff. Also, his zanpakto is mid-ranged, so he doesn't need to come close to someone in order to fight them, while Aizen has no choice(yeah, it's not a problem to approach someone when they don't know where you're coming from, I know). But the fight will probably end in some sick way like mayuri vs #8. This is my opinion

Zatono
September 29, 2009, 05:43 AM
Urahara is probably going to end up fighting him for all intents and purposes, but end up losing due to something random, and stupid, when he could of won.

Once we see both Bankai's it'll be a lot easier to figure out who'd win.

emanresu
September 29, 2009, 09:32 AM
Urahara may find a way to beat Aizen shikai. But Aizen bankai is just impossible to be beaten. Thats why Ichigo's brute force will play a major role.

savantking
September 29, 2009, 10:48 AM
I think Urahara will win, but by no means will it be an easy victory. Aizen claims to have reached the max height of soul power, but I think he's boasting. Even 2nd squad's vice-captain was able to withstand the pressure/how he made grimjaw bow is a mystery./. He's not so fast as Yoruichi or Soifon, and he did not master all the kidos ,he stated the 90th hadou against Komamura to be a failure. Of course this could mean he actually reached the max power of that 90th hadou at one time. I haven't seen any hand to hand combat, but stopping wounded and exhausted Ichigo was still quite a feat. After obtaining the Hougyoku he might have transformed himself into a vizard, we'll see later on. Aizen relies on his zanpakto too much. The reason he was able to strike Hitsu and the fox was because they were under the hypnosis. All in all, he is strong and smart, also the main villain, so it gives him some immunity against all except for the protagonist.
Urahara on the other hand is more of a man of science. He said Ichigo's battle potencial is above his, but going by Aizen sending out Ulq to check things out, same goes for the former 5th division captain. The reason I chose Urahara is not because he's so strong or fast, it's because he's ingenious and has all those gadgets. He most likely also knows how to seal a bankai in an enclosed area(or even shikai!), and even if he didn't he could just invent a sensory net, cast it around himself and thus locate enemies. That last one was a little odd, I know. My point is he was and maybe still is inventing so much great stuff. Also, his zanpakto is mid-ranged, so he doesn't need to come close to someone in order to fight them, while Aizen has no choice(yeah, it's not a problem to approach someone when they don't know where you're coming from, I know). But the fight will probably end in some sick way like mayuri vs #8. This is my opinion
what the bloody hell has urahara done to have people believe he can take out Aizen. seriously, aizen without using shikai took out Ichigo in bankai form. and when urahara was training ichigo and he first unknowingly used GT he did quite a bit of damage to urahara's bloodmist shield which by the way is one of his shikai abilities. so ichigo bankai>ichigo shikai. Aizen also easily blocked tessai's kido as a vc. urahara had a reiatsu blocking cloak, had the advantage of surprise and still managed to do no damage to Aizen. What makes you guys think that he'll be able to do it now? also I doubt he'd be able to disable Aizen's shikai as in order to do that he'd at the very least have to have significant information on his spiritual pressure, and spirit power. which i seriously doubt he has as since his failed attempt at killing him he has never ever been remotely near aizen. Also his kyoka suigetsu's abilities are probably significantly more complex and difficult to determine the basis of than Renji's purely power zanpaktou which Szayel was able to determine. Honestly all that Urahara has going for him in this fight is fan hype which certainly is not a valid reason to give him victory over Aizen of all people. That's saying he's at Yama's level which he hasn't shown much to say. and don't bring up the 3day bankai as that was all due to his tech. not taking away from his abilities but i'd surmise that any captain could probably have achieved bankai if they had had that device.

En Yang Ji
September 29, 2009, 11:07 AM
what the bloody hell has urahara done to have people believe he can take out Aizen. seriously, aizen without using shikai took out Ichigo in bankai form. and when urahara was training ichigo and he first unknowingly used GT he did quite a bit of damage to urahara's bloodmist shield which by the way is one of his shikai abilities. so ichigo bankai>ichigo shikai. Aizen also easily blocked tessai's kido as a vc. urahara had a reiatsu blocking cloak, had the advantage of surprise and still managed to do no damage to Aizen. What makes you guys think that he'll be able to do it now? also I doubt he'd be able to disable Aizen's shikai as in order to do that he'd at the very least have to have significant information on his spiritual pressure, and spirit power. which i seriously doubt he has as since his failed attempt at killing him he has never ever been remotely near aizen. Also his kyoka suigetsu's abilities are probably significantly more complex and difficult to determine the basis of than Renji's purely power zanpaktou which Szayel was able to determine. Honestly all that Urahara has going for him in this fight is fan hype which certainly is not a valid reason to give him victory over Aizen of all people. That's saying he's at Yama's level which he hasn't shown much to say. and don't bring up the 3day bankai as that was all due to his tech. not taking away from his abilities but i'd surmise that any captain could probably have achieved bankai if they had had that device.

The pic below shows that the other captains couldn't achieve bankai using Urahara's method


I think Urahara has both combat and scientific genius. Urahara showed how great he was in combat when he analyzed Yammy's bala and used his mod soul to switch with, without Yammy noticing it. Even though Urahara's invention speed up the process, he achieved bankai at a similar pace to Ichigo, who has an insanely fast growth rate.

Seeing how it took even Ichigo 2 1/2 days to achieve bankai with that method and there's a 3 day limit on how long you can train like this, I don't think anyway who isn't extremely talented or a genius can successfully use this method to gain bankai.

This page shows Urahara's talent: http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/132/17/

- Hitsugaya growth rate probably isn't much higher than Urahara, if it is. To surpass Shunsui it would take him a hundred years.

deanmilanov
September 29, 2009, 11:34 AM
Urahara may find a way to beat Aizen shikai. But Aizen bankai is just impossible to be beaten. Thats why Ichigo's brute force will play a major role.

We don't know his bankai's powers. Just because Yoruichi said 5 to 10 times stronger doesn't mean 10 times more reiatsu or ten times the speed. It would probably enhance the hypnosis, though I don't know how...

@ Savantking
Urahara has shown enough to impress me. Achieving bankai in 3 days, coming up with the method for it, creating the Hougioku, toying with yammi... yes, we haven't seen him make someone bow down just with reiatsu, or stop a blade with his bare hand, yet I think that he stands a chance. I'm not overrating Urahara, people overrate Aizen. Btw Hichigo stopped Buyakuya's blade barehanded.

savantking
September 29, 2009, 12:54 PM
We don't know his bankai's powers. Just because Yoruichi said 5 to 10 times stronger doesn't mean 10 times more reiatsu or ten times the speed. It would probably enhance the hypnosis, though I don't know how...

@ Savantking
Urahara has shown enough to impress me. Achieving bankai in 3 days, coming up with the method for it, creating the Hougioku, toying with yammi... yes, we haven't seen him make someone bow down just with reiatsu, or stop a blade with his bare hand, yet I think that he stands a chance. I'm not overrating Urahara, people overrate Aizen. Btw Hichigo stopped Buyakuya's blade barehanded.
toying with the 10th espada with his shikai? that sure puts him over Aizen. and just so you know ichigo achieve bankai in less time than urahara. does that mean that he can currently beat aizen? or how about when ulquiorra unreleased deflected urahara's shikai attack barehanded? Yeah he sure is at aizen's level. note the sarcasm. All of his battle feats have been shown to be less than other captains. For instance he used his shikai to fight yammi and the fake sixth espada. well Shunsui actually beat the released first espada with only shikai. and yet i doubt anyone here would say that he's strong enough to defeat aizen. Urahara is strong probably but not nearly at aizen at least based on actual feats.

Richo
September 29, 2009, 01:00 PM
we have to give urahara some credit, the guy invented some very nasty stuff over the years and has showns us to be very talented in nearly every way of the shinigami arts.
- hand to hand is top notch
- his sword fighting is high aswell i reckon
- his inteligence, perception and his wits are to be on par with aizen and higher I believe
- Urahara has yet to show some reasonable kidou techniques so we cant judge that properly.
- we can reasonable asume he has reiatsu to be on par with most of the older captains (and probably even the vizards/top espada however this is mere speculations)

Aizen seems to be superior in sheer reiatsu and probably his kidou techniques however Aizen has yet to show a real sword fight so we cant judge that at this moment.
Aizen being able to cut down Ichigo back in SS shouldnt be taken into this discussion as ichigo had barely any reiatsu left and was gravely injured with his fight against byakuya. Most VC would be able to defeat ichigo at that time.

Urahara wont attack aizen unprepared and since he is aware of aizen his total hypnosis, and i am pretty sure he is also aware of its weakness. This will give urahara the upper hand in the fight (untill Aizen uses his bankai). Urahara has proven to be a very tough and unpredictable opponent.
The inventions Urarahara made untill now vouch for his wits.

I do not say urahara will win this fight however i say that urahara will atleast have the upperhand untill Aizen has to resort to bankai.

savantking
September 29, 2009, 01:07 PM
I doubt anyone currently is aware of the weakness of kyoka suigetsu. If he knew it already why not give it to the Gotei13 and especially Yamamoto? People are all using assumptions for urahara's side. That really is not in the least bit valid. at least for aizen's side besides the # of feats he has they can also use his stats which happen to be equal to yammamoto. But urahara doesn't even have that so people should not make assumptions. Urahara has enough not so stellar feats to make it easy for one to believe that he is nowhere near Aizen.

deanmilanov
September 29, 2009, 01:48 PM
toying with the 10th espada with his shikai? that sure puts him over Aizen. and just so you know ichigo achieve bankai in less time than urahara. does that mean that he can currently beat aizen? or how about when ulquiorra unreleased deflected urahara's shikai attack barehanded? Yeah he sure is at aizen's level. note the sarcasm. All of his battle feats have been shown to be less than other captains. For instance he used his shikai to fight yammi and the fake sixth espada. well Shunsui actually beat the released first espada with only shikai. and yet i doubt anyone here would say that he's strong enough to defeat aizen. Urahara is strong probably but not nearly at aizen at least based on actual feats.

Let's see what Aizen has done: used his zanpakto effect on Hitsu and slashed him. Stopped wounded exhausted Ichigo's blade barehanded, same with Renji. Caught Komamura's sword, the latter had his ass kicked by Kenpachi. Stabbed (yet couldn't kill) Hinamori. Same with Halibel. About his reiatsu: he has twice the reiatsu of normal captains (say Hitsu and Koma, which he happened to fight). Huh, great guy.
Well, I guess you can't see my point of view, and I can't see yours, so it's pointless to try to convince each other. This is my last post on the subject.

savantking
September 29, 2009, 05:50 PM
Let's see what Aizen has done: used his zanpakto effect on Hitsu and slashed him. Stopped wounded exhausted Ichigo's blade barehanded, same with Renji. Caught Komamura's sword, the latter had his ass kicked by Kenpachi. Stabbed (yet couldn't kill) Hinamori. Same with Halibel. About his reiatsu: he has twice the reiatsu of normal captains (say Hitsu and Koma, which he happened to fight). Huh, great guy.
Well, I guess you can't see my point of view, and I can't see yours, so it's pointless to try to convince each other. This is my last post on the subject.

He actually never released kyoka suigetsu when he pwned Hitsu. That was just added in the anime. He actually managed to slash Hitsu in bankai before he could do anything. That shows his speed. Read the corresponding manga chapters dude. You do realize Kenpachi never actually beat Komamura right? Also he managed to floor Grimmjow with pure reiatsu. the grimmjow who at the time was pwning Ichigo bankai. He also without looking behind him blocked the Kido captains hadou 88 with a danku. and he managed to escape urahara's sneak attack even whilst urahara had a reiatsu blocking cloak. He also has in the official statbook overall equal stats to yamamoto. He also managed to catch renji's shikai barehanded and cause it to fold itself. Also he managed to disappear from renji's sight in an instant with shunpo even though renji could then respond to byakuya's shunpo. he also managed to drop komamura with a black coffin kido that wasn't more than 1/3 the full capacity. He managed to get Barragan to submit to his control. all these feats surpass anything battlewise that urahara has actually done. Name feats of urahara that match all of these. I'm also prolly forgeting some more.

En Yang Ji
September 30, 2009, 07:12 AM
toying with the 10th espada with his shikai? that sure puts him over Aizen. and just so you know ichigo achieve bankai in less time than urahara. does that mean that he can currently beat aizen? or how about when ulquiorra unreleased deflected urahara's shikai attack barehanded? Yeah he sure is at aizen's level. note the sarcasm. All of his battle feats have been shown to be less than other captains. For instance he used his shikai to fight yammi and the fake sixth espada. well Shunsui actually beat the released first espada with only shikai. and yet i doubt anyone here would say that he's strong enough to defeat aizen. Urahara is strong probably but not nearly at aizen at least based on actual feats.

- Even though Ichigo achieved bankai in less time than Urahara he has only had less than 1 year to train. Urahara had 110 years.

- Ulquiorra deflecting his arrack doesn't mean anything. Urahara can change the power of his attack. The one he used to cut Luppi's limb was a lot stronger than the one he used to cancel out Ichigo's GT.

- Urahara was able to react to WW attack. Ukitake was taken out before he could react.

savantking
September 30, 2009, 11:02 PM
Yeah but he hasn't shown any attack that has been even been shown to be able to beat ulquiorra and your saying he's gonna beat Aizen? Based on actual feats he hasn't anything to put him on that kind of level. also Urahara said that Ichigo had more talent than him to Yoruichi. so stop acting like he's a god or something. Aizen may not be as worthy of all the praise that he's been getting but he's certainly earned more than Urahara.

Trotter
October 08, 2009, 07:22 PM
If Urahara is put under the hypnosis of Aizen's, it's game over. Considering there is no countermeasure to the hypnosis that we know of, and that Aizen controls all the senses, then anything Urahara does is usless. Aizen could make Urahara think he's moving when he's not and can make him think he's dead when he's not, and just take his head off with one blow. Aizen wins the match.

Gran Maestro
October 09, 2009, 04:02 PM
He actually never released kyoka suigetsu when he pwned Hitsu. That was just added in the anime. He actually managed to slash Hitsu in bankai before he could do anything. That shows his speed.

How do you know that he didn't release KS? He sheathed his sword after he slashed Harribel but it turned out that his illusions were still active. You can never be sure if he is in released state or not, his speed may actually be an illusion. :eyeroll

conn-man
October 12, 2009, 01:39 PM
im certain that aizen is gonna have one or two legitiment fights before he is defeated by ichigo way later on and im almost sure that urahara is gonna be one of the people to fight aizen.

i would bet that urahara will find a way to bypass absolute hypnosis and that will force aizen to give us a little taste of his bankai or hollow powers to beat urahara.

savantking
October 12, 2009, 01:58 PM
How do you know that he didn't release KS? He sheathed his sword after he slashed Harribel but it turned out that his illusions were still active. You can never be sure if he is in released state or not, his speed may actually be an illusion. :eyeroll Theres one key difference between the 2 instances. In the Harribel fight we actually see an illusion being hit by Harribel.. But in the Hitsugaya fight we see him release and in the next second we see Aizen right behind him with Hitsugaya defeated. Theres not one panel that shows an illusion or anything. It implies that he's so fast that Hitsugaya could even see him attack. The instance with the illusion in the fight was merely added in the anime and therefore is not canon so cannot be used.

Gran Maestro
October 12, 2009, 02:05 PM
Theres one key difference between the 2 instances. In the Harribel fight we actually see an illusion being hit by Harribel.. But in the Hitsugaya fight we see him release and in the next second we see Aizen right behind him with Hitsugaya defeated. Theres not one panel that shows an illusion or anything. It implies that he's so fast that Hitsugaya could even see him attack. The instance with the illusion in the fight was merely added in the anime and therefore is not canon so cannot be used.

He can use KS to make himself invisible. What looks like a speed feat may actually be an ability of KS. ;)

savantking
October 19, 2009, 09:27 AM
He can use KS to make himself invisible. What looks like a speed feat may actually be an ability of KS. ;)
You could be right but you could also be wrong. perhaps he did use KS but that doesn't mean he had to considering that he's supposed to be uber even without it in terms of shinigami skills. You can't just state that he did and not prove it. I mean he's shown plenty of speed skills to show that he might be capable of blitzing Hitsu. He disappeared from abarai's sight and instantly appeared behind him and cut him. THis is after abarai could react to Byakuya so don't say he's slow. don't just act like your right without absolutely proving it.

Gran Maestro
October 19, 2009, 10:11 AM
I mean he's shown plenty of speed skills to show that he might be capable of blitzing Hitsu. He disappeared from abarai's sight and instantly appeared behind him and cut him. THis is after abarai could react to Byakuya so don't say he's slow. don't just act like your right without absolutely proving it.

This is exactly my point. He most probably used KS to disappear from the sight of Renji who is proficient enough to follow the movements (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/140/16/) of Byakuya.

I don't claim I'm right and my words are fact but when I have these two options

a) Aizen is so fast that even Byakuya (who competes with Goddess of Flash) is like a tortoise compared to him

b) Aizen who has a zanpakuto that can make himself invisible used his zanpakuto to make himself invisible and his opponents (like Hitsugaya or Renji) failed to follow his movements

I go with option b, it's more reasonable according to my criteria.

Jamil2009
October 19, 2009, 10:45 AM
I think it is without a doubt that Aizen would sweep FKT with Urahara (and most everyone else) with one hand behind his back. That's unless Urahara has come up with a way of defeating KS's complete hypnosis.

savantking
October 20, 2009, 10:32 AM
This is exactly my point. He most probably used KS to disappear from the sight of Renji who is proficient enough to follow the movements (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/140/16/) of Byakuya.

I don't claim I'm right and my words are fact but when I have these two options

a) Aizen is so fast that even Byakuya (who competes with Goddess of Flash) is like a tortoise compared to him

b) Aizen who has a zanpakuto that can make himself invisible used his zanpakuto to make himself invisible and his opponents (like Hitsugaya or Renji) failed to follow his movements

I go with option b, it's more reasonable according to my criteria.

There is a problem with your theory though. We know that he cut ichigo at the waist and the split second after he let go of Ichigo's sword he disappeared. he wouldn't have the time to use KS then sneakily get behind Renji. He literally was that much faster than renji. which is why i think he didn't use ks when he beat Hitsugaya. imho he used pure speed and Youruichi was much faster than Byakuya whilst carrying ichigo. there was no competition.

Gran Maestro
October 20, 2009, 10:37 AM
There is a problem with your theory though. We know that he cut ichigo at the waist and the split second after he let go of Ichigo's sword he disappeared. he wouldn't have the time to use KS then sneakily get behind Renji. He literally was that much faster than renji. which is why i think he didn't use ks when he beat Hitsugaya. imho he used pure speed and Youruichi was much faster than Byakuya whilst carrying ichigo. there was no competition.

I don't understand, why do you think Aizen needs time to disappear? :blink

zimbardo
October 20, 2009, 10:54 AM
the problem with Aizen is it is impossible to ever determine his skills when he has his shikai in effect...
He could be stronger than Yamamoto, or weaker than Rukia... it doesn't really make any difference as his swords ability gives him pretty much free reign to do what he wants to his enemies and make them think he is doing something else...
Aizen is an unknown unknown... and with his shikai in effect I am not sure anyone stands a chance no matter how strong he is...
Now if Urahara could find a way to stop Aizens shikai, well he may have a chance... but without that then unfortunatly, no matter how strong people may think he is, he has no hope in hell...

Jamil2009
October 20, 2009, 11:07 AM
the problem with Aizen is it is impossible to ever determine his skills when he has his shikai in effect...
He could be stronger than Yamamoto, or weaker than Rukia... it doesn't really make any difference as his swords ability gives him pretty much free reign to do what he wants to his enemies and make them think he is doing something else...
Aizen is an unknown unknown... and with his shikai in effect I am not sure anyone stands a chance no matter how strong he is...
Now if Urahara could find a way to stop Aizens shikai, well he may have a chance... but without that then unfortunatly, no matter how strong people may think he is, he has no hope in hell...

HEAR, HEAR!
[hr]

There is a problem with your theory though. We know that he cut ichigo at the waist and the split second after he let go of Ichigo's sword he disappeared. he wouldn't have the time to use KS then sneakily get behind Renji. He literally was that much faster than renji. which is why i think he didn't use ks when he beat Hitsugaya. imho he used pure speed and Youruichi was much faster than Byakuya whilst carrying ichigo. there was no competition.

I don't think he used speed to defeat Hitsu. Hitsu ran Daiguren Hyourinmaru through Aizen and froze the daylights out of him. One snag; it wasn't Aizen! Aizen created a copy of himself and moved in behind Hitsu, and when the time was right he struck Whitey-chan. Thus, no speed, plenty KS. But somehow I get the feeling this was only in the anime and not in the manga. Kinda annoying, these discrepancies. How's are we 'posed to correlate?

Either way, Hitsu is a captain as well and though Aizen is leagues ahead of him in terms of full actualisation of potentials, Hitsu's no pushover and would have been able to follow Aizen IMO. Perhaps, this could be the reason why in the anime the producers sought to incorporate a more plausible reason for Aizen's victory in that battle.

Gran Maestro
October 20, 2009, 11:36 AM
Either way, Hitsu is a captain as well and though Aizen is leagues ahead of him in terms of full actualisation of potentials, Hitsu's no pushover and would have been able to follow Aizen IMO. Perhaps, this could be the reason why in the anime the producers sought to incorporate a more plausible reason for Aizen's victory in that battle.

Anime guys had no idea about what Aizen did, so they wrote their own scenario which IMO was pretty accurate. I think Aizen did the same thing to both Hitsugaya and Renji, he disappeared by using his zanpakuto, and then slashed them from behind.

kkck
October 25, 2009, 03:40 AM
Quite frankly, the only way for urahara to have a shred of a chance to merely actually fight aizen is to device some method to break the illusion. Once such a thing is used you can say there will be a fight. As long as the illusion is there urahara will be defeated, ass raped, spit on, stepped on, squashed, laugh at, pulverized, served, subdued, eliminated, annihilated and tossed aside this easily(had to run out of synonyms for defeat at some point right?):
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/170/22/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/170/23/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/174/14/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/174/15/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/174/17/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/176/11/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/245/10/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/245/11/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/376/02/

And to top it all this:
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/377/06/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/377/07/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/377/08/
Aizen had almost every vizard including the former captains on the defensive.

Now, IMHO aizen is on an entirely different level from the rest of captains. Yamamoto might be the only one actualy close in power to aizen given that he is also capable of fighting several captains at one time and hold his ground. As for the rest, they will be easily defeated. I don't quite frankly I don't even think urahara is even that much better than the current generation of gotei 13 captains..... Odds are that even if urahara gets past the illusion and gets a shot at fighting aizen he would still be defeated by aizens sheer raw power. Urahara is a genious and probably the smartest guy in bleach but it is not like aizen is not. Aizen is pretty much in the same league as urahara in terms of genius IMHO(worst case scenario urahara is just a little smarter).

All in all aizen has shown to be a league above the actual captain level, basically a league on his own. Hell, the direction the manga has taken suggests that the difference between aizen and a captain level dude is the same as with a captain and a VC(at the very least compareable) otherwise aizen would not actually be stronger than the 10 espada and he claimed.......

Seriously, if urahara or anyone else has such much of a shred of a chance of defeating aizen, why just not go to HM and defeat him? Why wait for aizen to make a move so that the gotei 13 and the vizards can gang up on aizen? We all know the vizards can stand up to and even defeat the espada, the why not just go with them to invade HM? Vizards defeat espada, urahara fights aizen and end of story. Urahara has had the garganta for a while, he might as well had used it to take aizen before he complete the espada right? All in all, aizen is probably even more powerful than what his hype would suggest.

Gran Maestro
October 25, 2009, 06:26 AM
Seriously, if urahara or anyone else has such much of a shred of a chance of defeating aizen, why just not go to HM and defeat him? Why wait for aizen to make a move so that the gotei 13 and the vizards can gang up on aizen? We all know the vizards can stand up to and even defeat the espada, the why not just go with them to invade HM? Vizards defeat espada, urahara fights aizen and end of story. Urahara has had the garganta for a while, he might as well had used it to take aizen before he complete the espada right? All in all, aizen is probably even more powerful than what his hype would suggest.

Vizards have their own agenda, they're not allies of SS or Urahara. Urahara and the vizards didn't have any idea about the strength level of all espada. HM was a complete unknown, it was enemy territory, you couldn't blindly go attack without knowing what lies ahead. And I think it took time to open a secure garganta to HM.

On the contrary, we can ask why Aizen bothered to trap four captains in HM if he is so sure of himself. Why didn't he kill senior captains before SS arc, they had no idea about Aizen's abilities, wouldn't it be easy? This behaviour implies that he is not as powerful as suggested.

We know Ichigo will defeat Aizen but if Aizen is that strong, how is Ichigo going to defeat him? The simple answer is Aizen is not that strong and the likes of Urahara is a match. He made short work of two captains who didn't know his illusions, let's see what he'll do against stronger opponents who know his abilities this time.

Lunatic Scream
October 25, 2009, 11:30 AM
Vizards have their own agenda, they're not allies of SS or Urahara. Urahara and the vizards didn't have any idea about the strength level of all espada. HM was a complete unknown, it was enemy territory, you couldn't blindly go attack without knowing what lies ahead. And I think it took time to open a secure garganta to HM.

On the contrary, we can ask why Aizen bothered to trap four captains in HM if he is so sure of himself. Why didn't he kill senior captains before SS arc, they had no idea about Aizen's abilities, wouldn't it be easy? This behaviour implies that he is not as powerful as suggested.

We know Ichigo will defeat Aizen but if Aizen is that strong, how is Ichigo going to defeat him? The simple answer is Aizen is not that strong and the likes of Urahara is a match. He made short work of two captains who didn't know his illusions, let's see what he'll do against stronger opponents who know his abilities this time.

Those are all good reasons as to why Aizen may not be as strong as some believe, but you can't just say Urahara is a match for him. Fact is, any speculation about Urahara's strength is unfortunately just that... speculation.

Also you need to take into account that Gin, Tousen, and Aizen alone are holding a standoff with the remaining FKT captains and vaizard. If every captain level there just released their bankai... it would be awesome.

Honestly, this match will probably happen in the manga at some point, but Urahara will be doomed by virtue of not being the main protagonist. Not to say he won't put up a good showing though.

Gran Maestro
October 25, 2009, 12:45 PM
Those are all good reasons as to why Aizen may not be as strong as some believe, but you can't just say Urahara is a match for him. Fact is, any speculation about Urahara's strength is unfortunately just that... speculation.

That's right, we have very limited information about Urahara's strength. Most people take Urahara's role in the story into consideration when estimating his strength but Kubo may surprise us. His bankai was hinted to be awesome, we'll see.


Also you need to take into account that Gin, Tousen, and Aizen alone are holding a standoff with the remaining FKT captains and vaizard. If every captain level there just released their bankai... it would be awesome.

Well, I'm sure Aizen, Gin and Tousen will not defeat all opposition, Kubo will most probably cut the battle short and Aizen will leave the battlefield once the captains in HM arrive.


Honestly, this match will probably happen in the manga at some point, but Urahara will be doomed by virtue of not being the main protagonist. Not to say he won't put up a good showing though.

If Urahara puts up a good showing, this is good enough for me. Perhaps the fight ends without a clear conclusion. Kubo may save Aizen's bankai for Ichigo.

thornofcarrion
October 25, 2009, 12:57 PM
Urahara is one of underestimated character in Bleach in my opinion. He devised and achieved bankai faster than anyone else, only Ichigo rivals him. And by faster mean a whole lot faster. In a nutshell, he is a raw talent and has massive potential. I wouldn't discount this little factor.

Once tasting the Aizen's illusion, I hope he has found or at least analyzed how to counter Aizen's ability. After his exile, I am sure he has done great deal of improvement. Same could be said about Aizen, the match up will be one hell of an interesting duel.

zimbardo
October 25, 2009, 01:23 PM
Fact is, any speculation about Urahara's strength is unfortunately just that... speculation.

While I am not going to deny that Urahara has yet to show anything much at all...
It must also be stated that because of Aizen's shikai - any speculation about Aizen's strength is also just that... as due to the nature of his abilities it becomes impossible to actually judge his strength at all...
All we have to go on is his boasts... and to be honest if I could make people believe anything then I would boast myself to an unbelievable level also...
Whilst it is fact that with his ability in place he is pretty much unbeatable, that doesn't necessarily make him more skilled than any other captain at all...

Saint Markus
October 25, 2009, 04:04 PM
i don't think it's mainly about power with these two fighters, it's more based on intelligence and skill and both are pretty strong with both. However, Urahara did create the hougyoku, the very thing that's made some of the most powerful characters in Bleach and he's done amazing things so far shown in the manga with his mere intelligence alone.

I think Urahara is at least more of a threat to Aizen than anyone else in Bleach, next to Ichigo.

Really depends on this being an all out battle where anything goes and i am leaning more towards Urahara, but I think Aizen would give him a fight for his life.

Lunatic Scream
October 25, 2009, 07:07 PM
While I am not going to deny that Urahara has yet to show anything much at all...
It must also be stated that because of Aizen's shikai - any speculation about Aizen's strength is also just that... as due to the nature of his abilities it becomes impossible to actually judge his strength at all...
All we have to go on is his boasts... and to be honest if I could make people believe anything then I would boast myself to an unbelievable level also...
Whilst it is fact that with his ability in place he is pretty much unbeatable, that doesn't necessarily make him more skilled than any other captain at all...

It's true, outside of his shikai and some impressive kido showings, we don't have much to judge Aizen on either. But... given how GODLIKE his shikai is... do we need anything else? It may not seem fair, but Aizen drew the lottery jackpot on his zanpakuto.

Saint Markus
October 25, 2009, 08:14 PM
It's true, outside of his shikai and some impressive kido showings, we don't have much to judge Aizen on either. But... given how GODLIKE his shikai is... do we need anything else? It may not seem fair, but Aizen drew the lottery jackpot on his zanpakuto.

well if that's the case, you could say the same thing for Urahara too right?. we haven't seen a full spectrum of what either of them can actually do when going all out and that's really the only way you can make a decision on who would actually win a one on one.

i still think it comes down to skill and intelligence, the two things that both characters have provided in the manga that they are actually masters at.

Essence
October 25, 2009, 09:06 PM
I Know a lot of people would like Aizen to lose out of hatred for the guy and urahara to win but bits not like that, this shouldn't really be a discussion. sure urahara is one few of the characters that Aizen won't annihilate easily in this manga, but victorious is by a mile aizen. the manga itself is proof of that.

NyxOne
October 25, 2009, 09:23 PM
The manga, that showed that Aizen relies entirely on his illusions and also showed that Urahara had knowledge of Aizen's capabilities and showed that he was the first person to even touch him, is proof?

Okay.

kkck
October 25, 2009, 09:50 PM
The manga, that showed that Aizen relies entirely on his illusions and also showed that Urahara had knowledge of Aizen's capabilities and showed that he was the first person to even touch him, is proof?

Okay.

The manga has also shown he relies heavily on high level kido with no incantations, speed, and extremely heavy spirit pressure.:s

El Samurai Guapo
October 26, 2009, 01:11 AM
The manga has also shown he relies heavily on high level kido with no incantations, speed, and extremely heavy spirit pressure.:s

Yeah, Sousuke has casted the highest level hadou we've seen so far (kurohitsugi). You gotta give props to Saijin for getting hit by a level 90 hadou and being able to stand up a short while after.

I don't think Urahara Kisuke is as strong as Sousuke to be honest. I think Urahara is more on the Shinji/Shunsui level, whereas Aizen Sousuke is at the Genryusai Yamamoto level.

If Yamamoto and Kisuke could work together to fight against Sousuke than that would be great. Kisuke using his intelligence to find a weakness to Kyouka Suigetsu and Yamamoto being the one to actually use his power to destroy Sousuke. If it's just Ichigo that has the final showdown against Aizen Sousuke (most likely the case), then I'll be pretty disappointed. Hopefully the mangaka tries to break the mold and find some other role for Ichigo other than fighting Sousuke.

zimbardo
October 26, 2009, 04:11 AM
The manga has also shown he relies heavily on high level kido with no incantations, speed, and extremely heavy spirit pressure.:s

Well... actually it has not shown any of that at all...
He could have done the incantation without people realising for example... makes sense as if they heard the ritual (which who knows if Kommumara may have known or not) then the enemy would have been able to stand a chance at a counter spell or something...
speed again is questionable if you never know where he actually is...
and spirit pressure also. as if you think something is happening then the placebo effect can be quite strong.
That is why Aizen is such a cool bad guy. As it is impossible to gague him at all, when someone does break his shikai then he will be pushed all out... it's gonna be badass!

UnknownQuincy
October 26, 2009, 04:11 AM
toying with the 10th espada with his shikai? that sure puts him over Aizen. and just so you know ichigo achieve bankai in less time than urahara. does that mean that he can currently beat aizen? or how about when ulquiorra unreleased deflected urahara's shikai attack barehanded? Yeah he sure is at aizen's level. note the sarcasm. All of his battle feats have been shown to be less than other captains. For instance he used his shikai to fight yammi and the fake sixth espada. well Shunsui actually beat the released first espada with only shikai. and yet i doubt anyone here would say that he's strong enough to defeat aizen. Urahara is strong probably but not nearly at aizen at least based on actual feats.

Shunsui is probably strong enough to defeat Aizen. Really, all it would take is a well-timed Take-Oni. If Shunsui was higher up than Aizen and Aizen didn't counter the move like Starrk did, then regardless of Aizen's illusions, game over. Shunsui doesn't even need Bankai, even IF Aizen was using his. People rave about how insane Soi Fon's two hit melee kill is, and really, Shunsui can one-hit ranged kill you easier.

He is held back from doing so by the same reason's other excessively powerful characters such as Hacchi, Soi Fon, and Yamamoto, or even Orihime are held back from outright killing Aizen in a few simple panels.

The mangaka needs to continue to sell his product.

Now, back on topic: I voted Urahara because, he is one of my favorite characters. His abilities really don't stack up at all to Aizen right now, but I really like his fighting style, he controls the battle very well. If his Bankai can give him a leg to stand on, he has a really good chance to have the brains to do the job.

Gran Maestro
October 26, 2009, 04:30 AM
Shunsui is probably strong enough to defeat Aizen.

If it turns out that Shunsui is strong enough to defeat Aizen, I won't be surprised. As you say, the manga doesn't sell well if there are many characters who are on par with the main antagonist, this is why Kubo purposely keeps Aizen from fighting high tier characters.

Of course, it can also turn out that Aizen is the strongest of them all but until Aizen proves himself against a worthy opponent, his power will be questionable.

Essence
October 26, 2009, 02:22 PM
The manga, that showed that Aizen relies entirely on his illusions and also showed that Urahara had knowledge of Aizen's capabilities and showed that he was the first person to even touch him, is proof?

Okay.

Like I said the manga is proof of Aizen abilities, if you miss it, then i say you take time to read some chapters over again.

Okay

KnuckleheadedNinja
October 26, 2009, 06:06 PM
I think both character are about the same level. But i would hope Aizen is stronger, the plot need him to be stronger, even if it just by a little bit.

kkck
October 26, 2009, 06:24 PM
I still don't know... how much should we believe what aizen says? If there is a shread of truth to aizens comments of him being stronger than the 10 espada together then how could lonely urahara match up? I mean, what aizen says actually makes sense considering he did send grimmjow to his knees using reiatsu alone(something which should be utterly impossible unless the difference in reiatsu is so vast it is not even funny). I just don't see how urahara could even hope to have such a measure of power. The manga has repeatedly implied aizen has above captain class reiatsu and I really don't see urahara being anywhere but within the captain class(not above or below).

En Yang Ji
October 26, 2009, 06:38 PM
- I think Urahara has the potential to be on Aizen's level. He's extremely talented and intelligent and has a 100 years of experience as a captain. Another thing is his inventions could have increased his growth rate.

- Urahara researched ways to strengthen shinigami souls. Maybe he has a power-up move like Yoruichi's shunko.

Saint Markus
October 26, 2009, 07:08 PM
even if Aizen is a 100 times more powerful that Urahara, you think Urahara can't find a way to reach his level?.

Urahara found a way to obtain the highest level release of a zanpakuto in a mere 3 days with just his intelligence. Imagine what else he could do in other areas of power.

And whatever Aizen can do, Urahara could do as well. Plus, Urahara pulled his own little "illusion" trick with Yammy, the "portable gigai" thing was pretty cool and he was able to switch with it during a battle. Then there's the reiatsu-blocking cloak that he wore. The dude is smart not dumb, and despite how powerful you or your enemies are, that counts for a lot more than muscle as it's been proven with any battle in history.

I don't hate Aizen personally, because that would be sort of blasphemy in a way for the fact that he's keeping the entirety of Bleach going and without him the manga would've gotten canceled months ago.

this fight is just too d**n close to tell right now. Haven't seen either of these guys ban kai's either, so put that into the speculation too and try to make a confirmed decision.

Gran Maestro
October 26, 2009, 07:22 PM
how much should we believe what aizen says? If there is a shread of truth to aizens comments of him being stronger than the 10 espada together then how could lonely urahara match up?

Even if Aizen is right, i.e. if Aizen is stronger than 10 espada combined, it still doesn't prove Aizen is stronger than Urahara. It just proves espada are useless against high tier characters.


I mean, what aizen says actually makes sense considering he did send grimmjow to his knees using reiatsu alone(something which should be utterly impossible unless the difference in reiatsu is so vast it is not even funny).

This is my take (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1584906#post1584906) on Grimmjow issue, Grimmjow was simply scared of Aizen. Aizen's never defeated anybody in combat by only releasing reiatsu.


I just don't see how urahara could even hope to have such a measure of power. The manga has repeatedly implied aizen has above captain class reiatsu and I really don't see urahara being anywhere but within the captain class(not above or below).

What exactly is captain class reiatsu? Ikkaku has (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/206/18/) captain class reiatsu, Yamamoto has (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/155/04/) captain class reiatsu. Aizen's reiatsu is strong but the manga didn't imply anything about how it compares to Urahara.

Yans86
October 28, 2009, 08:23 AM
Aizen's reiatsu is strong but the manga didn't imply anything about how it compares to Urahara.

I think it did with the gaiden.......and WW.
During WW arrancarization,Aizen said that not even Urahara knew that having "huge/over captain level reiatsu" could awaken it temporarly to his full power....then we have Urahara using Hogyouku on the vaizards in the gaiden,and getting super tired at the end of the process(for using it on more then one subjects)....I don't think that the hogyouku was full awakened at the time so,basically they should be both over the TOP with at least (TWICE the reiatsu of a captain).....

Raizen
October 28, 2009, 03:44 PM
I think it is urahara's cool persona that makes people think he is extremely strong. His feats have been continuously put to shame. I like urahara but this is how I see it
-Achieved bankai with his own method in 3 days. Ichi did the same thing. However, it doesn't really show strength
- Used shikai to defeat unreleased yammi. Shunsui used shikai to defeat RELEASED starks.
- His shikai was broken by ichi when he first used GT, and not even black GT.
- Ulqui blew his attack away like it was a fly

I think urahara is strong and smart but he is in no way on Aizen's level if we are to assume Aizen is about yama's level. Urahara, at best is at a level between byakuya and old captain shunsui.

Can urhara put up a fight, yes, but he won't win. I do think however that characters like shunsui, uki, and unohana can take Aizen on

Jamil2009
October 29, 2009, 10:16 AM
I have a theory and I would like to give everyone who reads it a walk through.

Facts.
We know Urahara trained either under or with Yoruichi, was the third seat of her squad and was the captain of a unit in the Secret Mobile Corp. We also know he is top-notch genius and a formidable Shinigami whose Bankai "is not meant to help people" (just saying).

Speculation.
Aizen's KS seems to have a flaw, in my humble opinion. Someone else poted it somewhere, but just to echo him/her, everytime an opponent comes in contact with the illusion cast by Aizen he immediately strikes leaving no room for a come-back. Could it be that Aizen just hates to prolong a fight or that the illusion loses its hold once it has been 'expericenced' by the opponent? For the sake of my theory let's apply the latter.

Theoretical Scenario.
Aizen and Urahara face-off. Urahara strikes and Aizen casts an illusion. The blow lands on the illusion and Aizen appears behind Urahara and lands a deadly blow. Then Urahara employs the Onmitsukido Molten Cicada Technique and appears behind Aizen, whether to strike the winning blow or just to rub it in Aizen's face that his KS won't work on him any more; that's for whomever to decide.

So, there it is. With proper timing and quick feet, a Molten Cicada could be the fall of Aizen. If this theory holds any weight then even Byakuya has a good chance against Aizen. Because all Aizen has going for him is his Zan's unique ability without which he'd probably be a toss-over for many captain-level Shinigami. And if this theory doesn't hold nothing, then the only person with any chance against Aizen is Orihime-with-battle-balls (read my post in the Prediction Of Future Arcs thread). Come to think of it, Aizen might have captured Inoue because he knows that, asides Tousen, she could really pose a threat if properly trained in battle and taught to fully use her skills.

Essence
October 29, 2009, 06:00 PM
I have a theory and I would like to give everyone who reads it a walk through.

Facts.
We know Urahara trained either under or with Yoruichi, was the third seat of her squad and was the captain of a unit in the Secret Mobile Corp. We also know he is top-notch genius and a formidable Shinigami whose Bankai "is not meant to help people" (just saying).

Speculation.
Aizen's KS seems to have a flaw, in my humble opinion. Someone else poted it somewhere, but just to echo him/her, everytime an opponent comes in contact with the illusion cast by Aizen he immediately strikes leaving no room for a come-back. Could it be that Aizen just hates to prolong a fight or that the illusion loses its hold once it has been 'expericenced' by the opponent? For the sake of my theory let's apply the latter.

Theoretical Scenario.
Aizen and Urahara face-off. Urahara strikes and Aizen casts an illusion. The blow lands on the illusion and Aizen appears behind Urahara and lands a deadly blow. Then Urahara employs the Onmitsukido Molten Cicada Technique and appears behind Aizen, whether to strike the winning blow or just to rub it in Aizen's face that his KS won't work on him any more; that's for whomever to decide.

So, there it is. With proper timing and quick feet, a Molten Cicada could be the fall of Aizen. If this theory holds any weight then even Byakuya has a good chance against Aizen. Because all Aizen has going for him is his Zan's unique ability without which he'd probably be a toss-over for many captain-level Shinigami. And if this theory doesn't hold nothing, then the only person with any chance against Aizen is Orihime-with-battle-balls (read my post in the Prediction Of Future Arcs thread). Come to think of it, Aizen might have captured Inoue because he knows that, asides Tousen, she could really pose a threat if properly trained in battle and taught to fully use her skills.

I f Aizen could be defeated like that, something tells me then kubo wasted our time working on this villain whom he has invested so much in. but then again i thought greatly of the espadas and look what happen, i hope its not the Same with Aizen

Pavitre
October 30, 2009, 06:51 AM
Wow finally tied after Urahara was leading in the polls. Hope Urahara delivers heavily as many of his fans would expect him too