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Jamil2009
October 14, 2009, 09:45 AM
KONICHIWA, fellow Bleach-maniacs.

I have started this thread to see what you guys think considering the Shinigami with the strongest Attack-Type Zanpakutoh. By Attack-Type Zanpakutoh I mean a Zanpakutoh that depends heavily if not solely on sword to sword contact and raw strength without resorting to kidou or the elements.

Ok, though the answer to this might seem obvious (Kenpachi, that is) I still think there might be some competition among some of the top Shinigami with Attack-Type Zanpakutohs. So please let me know what you think considering all that we know about the listed Shinigami (their current power status and abilities).

EDIT: There seems to be rampant confusion concerning what I meant by Attack-Type Zanpakutohs; it's my fault and I am very sorry. First off, I actually meant Melee-Type Zanpakutohs, that is Zanpakutohs that depend seriously on BLADE TO BLADE contact to win a fight. So, for instance, if Byakuya and Kenpachi faced off, given all we know they can do with their Zanpakutohs, who would win? That sort of thing.

So my apologies once more for the mix-ups and hope you keep posting your opinions.

TheCracker
October 14, 2009, 02:34 PM
There are more "Attack"-type Zanpaktou:

* Ichigo Kurosaki / Hollow Ichigo
* Kenpachi Zaraki
* Renji Abarai
* Ikkaku Madarame
* Makoto Kibune
* Shūhei Hisagi
* Marechiyo Ōmaeda
* Sajin Komamura

As you see Byakuya doesnt have one, he has a Projectile-type one

Jamil2009
October 14, 2009, 03:47 PM
There are more "Attack"-type Zanpaktou:

* Ichigo Kurosaki / Hollow Ichigo
* Kenpachi Zaraki
* Renji Abarai
* Ikkaku Madarame
* Makoto Kibune
* Shūhei Hisagi
* Marechiyo Ōmaeda
* Sajin Komamura

As you see Byakuya doesnt have one, he has a Projectile-type one

Yeah, I knew about the others (save Kibune though) but I excluded them for the following reasons:

Ichigo (and Shirosaki) both use Getsuga (a kidou attack) rather often.
Abarai also has Hikotsu Taihou not to mention that he would be floored by all three options.
Kibune was a filler character.
Hisagi wouldn't last long against either of the three options.
Same goes for Omaeda.
Komamura was a good call though. Don't know how I forgot that.

Random101
October 14, 2009, 05:45 PM
Kenpachi's auto exempt for the simple reason that it's not his Zanpakuto that's toting all the power, it's himself. If by attack type you mean blade that simply changes the form, Byakuya probably, for the simple reason that it's so supremely versatile, despite Senkei sucking. If not, then Yamamoto's was outright stated to have the strongest attack power.

kkck
October 14, 2009, 06:55 PM
IMHO a zampakuto is only as strong as the reiatsu behind it. In that sense, if a shinigami has a stronger reiatsu than another, then in a clash between their sword the stronger reiatsu would win. If we assume the reiatsu behind each zampakuto is the same in said clash, then there is a chance the result could depend on something else.

I would put this ones on top of my list in said situation though:

Zangetsu(it was mentioned it's reiatsu can destroy the ground under it with reiatsu alone. That could probably be attributed to any sword with strong reiatsu behind it though).

Zabimaru(extending properties provide quite a boost in power).

tengomaru(huge size, can take a barrage of cero head on)

Lisa's(don't know it's abilities but it has a large size and range to boost attack power)

Hiyori(similar thing to zangetsu)



Other than that I don't think there is any particular zampakuto that excels for attack power just fer being what it is rather that the reiatsu behind it.

Eddy01741
October 14, 2009, 07:19 PM
How about Gin's Shinsou? I mean, if you consider Byakuya's to be a physical attack type zanpakutou (yes, your title is misleading, since most zanpakutou are attack type, kidou can still= attack), you must consider Gin's to be one too.

Anyways, as said before, it all depends on the wielder of the zanpakutou. A strong user could make the weakest of zanpakutou powerful (ahem... Kenpachi). You say that we shouldn't count zanpakutou like Hisagi, but is his zanpakutou weak? Or is he just not skilled/powerful enough to use it as well as Byakuya and Kenpachi can use their zanpakutou?

So, physical attack type shinigami, either Kenpachi, Gin, Byakuya, or Komamura is strongest (I do not consider Ikkaku to be near their level quite yet).

Strongest physical attack zan ability? Well, out of the ones we've seen so far, probably Byakuya and Gin's zanpakutou are the most versatile.

Blanka
October 14, 2009, 07:29 PM
Im gonna go with a dark horse ... Ichimaru Gin. His sword has only ever been used in shikai, and he has not even come close to losing. His genius level swordsmanship, and unknown sword extents imply that he is ridiculous in cutting potential

Eddy01741
October 14, 2009, 07:39 PM
Well, also, if we think about it, Gin is definitely the most experienced shinigami with a physical attack zanpakutou.

Just to cite the other four "possibilities":

Komamura: Never seen or mentioned in the gaiden.

Byakuya: Same age as gin in gaiden, but he was just learning shunpo then, and was still in the academy.

Kenpachi: Not mentioned or seen in the gaiden. I would assume he's not a captain back then since Tousen made a big deal about watching him gain captainship by killing the previous captain.

Ikkaku: Even younger and less experienced than Kenpachi, needed a bankai to beat a goddamn fraccion.

Gin: Strong enough to kill a third seat in gaiden (yeah, 3rd seat, big whoop you say, but most 2nd year shinigami can barely fire off a kidou, much less even get drafted into the gotei 13 as an unranked shinigami), toyed with kid genius captain, and sliced a vizard ex-VC in half with zero effort with one use of his shikai.

Mifune_Taichou
October 14, 2009, 08:07 PM
Well, also, if we think about it, Gin is definitely the most experienced shinigami with a physical attack zanpakutou.

Just to cite the other four "possibilities":

Komamura: Never seen or mentioned in the gaiden.

Byakuya: Same age as gin in gaiden, but he was just learning shunpo then, and was still in the academy.

Kenpachi: Not mentioned or seen in the gaiden. I would assume he's not a captain back then since Tousen made a big deal about watching him gain captainship by killing the previous captain.

Ikkaku: Even younger and less experienced than Kenpachi, needed a bankai to beat a goddamn fraccion.

Gin: Strong enough to kill a third seat in gaiden (yeah, 3rd seat, big whoop you say, but most 2nd year shinigami can barely fire off a kidou, much less even get drafted into the gotei 13 as an unranked shinigami), toyed with kid genius captain, and sliced a vizard ex-VC in half with zero effort with one use of his shikai.

thats all true apart from the toying with Hitsugaya part. I'm sorry if this will look like im unloading on you in particular-i'm not this is for everyone.

That statement "Gin Toyed with Hitsugaya" is complete bs and unfounded in anything. The anime fight NEVER HAPPENED. re read the manga and anyone who thinks Gin toyed with him or even WON the fight needs an eye exam. Gin was outmaneuvered. Period. There is no way to tell how serious he was but the fact is in that fight he did NOTHING to hitsugaya and could have easily died. There is certainly nothing to place him above hitsugaya in any way after that fight. Please people stop just parroting this crap, check your facts, read the manga and you'll see what i mean.

Forever_Melody
October 14, 2009, 08:34 PM
I have to agree with kkck that a Zanpakutou is only as strong as the one wielding it.

However, if we'd have to pick solely on the shape and function/maneuverability of the Zanpakutou, I'd say Senbonzakura would be the most powerful since its shape is the most flexible. I mean, it can be used in an offensive as well as defensive manner(and both at the same time too) when Byakuya controls it.

I'd also add in Haineko, but we're not really totally sure if it can be used in the same manner as Senbonzakura.

El Samurai Guapo
October 14, 2009, 09:42 PM
How is Kenpachi even on the list? His zanpaktou is useless. No, as a matter of fact his zanpatkou is actually a handicap as it works against him. He'd be better of tossing that thing and getting himself a well-crafted katana.

Kenpachi is ridiculously strong because of his very own reiatsu and swordsmanship, which is what makes him so badass. Remember his rant about how only weaklings rely on their zanpaktou's abilities? That was awesome.

kkck
October 14, 2009, 11:16 PM
Does the thread include bankai too? I would increase my list if that is the case.

Richo
October 15, 2009, 12:14 AM
if with attack based zanpaktou you mean based on actual physical attributes there is only 1 zanpaktou that would realy qualify: Ikkaku's houzukimaru
houzukimaru only increases the physical strenght of ikkaku and augments his skills in close combat. This also is the only zanpaktou that increases the physical strenght of its wielder.
the second and third place go to Ichigo's Zangetsu and Renji's Zabimaru.
Both ichigo and renji their zanpaktou are based on their own physical strenght, while ichigo relies more on speed then strenght.
Komamura's Tenken doesnt rely on its user own strenght, however i dont claim komamura isnt strong. I wouldnt put his Tenken into a physical/attack power based zanpaktou.

kkck
October 15, 2009, 01:20 AM
I don't think komamura's zampakuto should be considered here. For one thing the sword does not transform, it simply summons either a limb or an entire giant. Komamura's sword remains the same and when using it's power unused to some extent. If it is considered it would be unquestionably the strongest. It would be the only sword with tons and tons to back it.

ganjabuss
October 15, 2009, 01:30 AM
it's ryujinjakka that possess the strongest attack power...which is the strongest fire-type zanpukto...
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/156/08/

1. i'll have to say zangetsu...
2. benihime[i thought of it as first but zangetsu's attack power can be increased by rotating it by the tape at it's end]
3. tengumaru of love
4.komamura's zanpukto[forgot the name]
5. ryumon hozukimaru
6. zabimaru's bankai's 'hikotsu taiho' isn't bad

kkck
October 15, 2009, 02:17 AM
The thread only includes melee type zampakuto though(or so I have been lead to believe by the opening post lol). Yamamoto's is clearly a kido type sword.

ganjabuss
October 15, 2009, 02:21 AM
dude only kido type zanpukto we've been shown are hinamori's, yumichika's and aizen's.....
yamamoto's is definitely not kido type...it's fire-type...

Jamil2009
October 15, 2009, 04:47 AM
Kenpachi's auto exempt for the simple reason that it's not his Zanpakuto that's toting all the power, it's himself. If by attack type you mean blade that simply changes the form, Byakuya probably, for the simple reason that it's so supremely versatile, despite Senkei sucking. If not, then Yamamoto's was outright stated to have the strongest attack power.

Reiatsu isn't everything. If it were, Ichigo would hardly have any contenders. The katana plays its part too.
[hr]

IMHO a zampakuto is only as strong as the reiatsu behind it. In that sense, if a shinigami has a stronger reiatsu than another, then in a clash between their sword the stronger reiatsu would win. If we assume the reiatsu behind each zampakuto is the same in said clash, then there is a chance the result could depend on something else.

I would put this ones on top of my list in said situation though:

Zangetsu(it was mentioned it's reiatsu can destroy the ground under it with reiatsu alone. That could probably be attributed to any sword with strong reiatsu behind it though).

Zabimaru(extending properties provide quite a boost in power).

tengomaru(huge size, can take a barrage of cero head on)

Lisa's(don't know it's abilities but it has a large size and range to boost attack power)

Hiyori(similar thing to zangetsu)



Other than that I don't think there is any particular zampakuto that excels for attack power just fer being what it is rather that the reiatsu behind it.

Good point. I didn't include Tengumaru, Haguro Tonbo or Kubikiri Orochi because we don't know enough of their wielders powers or abilities. Even though we've seen Tengumaru in action it was too little to judge from that and besides Love heated up Tengumaru which can be taken as resorting to the fire element.
[hr]

How about Gin's Shinsou? I mean, if you consider Byakuya's to be a physical attack type zanpakutou (yes, your title is misleading, since most zanpakutou are attack type, kidou can still= attack), you must consider Gin's to be one too.

Anyways, as said before, it all depends on the wielder of the zanpakutou. A strong user could make the weakest of zanpakutou powerful (ahem... Kenpachi). You say that we shouldn't count zanpakutou like Hisagi, but is his zanpakutou weak? Or is he just not skilled/powerful enough to use it as well as Byakuya and Kenpachi can use their zanpakutou?

So, physical attack type shinigami, either Kenpachi, Gin, Byakuya, or Komamura is strongest (I do not consider Ikkaku to be near their level quite yet).

Strongest physical attack zan ability? Well, out of the ones we've seen so far, probably Byakuya and Gin's zanpakutou are the most versatile.

Glad you pointed Gin out. Like I implied in an earlier reply only Zanpakutohs whose wielders we know enough about can be considered. Gin has a formidable Zanpakutoh to be sure but we do not know much about Shinsou to judge its prowess.

About Byakuya. Even though he can disperse his blade it doesn't change the fact that it is still his blade and neither kidou or the elements are engaged. I would even have included Matsumoto's Haineko but that would have been downright ridiculous. I also did not inclide Kokujou Tengen Myouu because of earlier stated lack of sufficient data.

And I am sorry about the title. This is the first thread I am hosting so forgive me for slipping up. But as I tried to convey in the opening post I meant Physical Attack-Type Zanpakutohs.

ganjabuss
October 15, 2009, 04:55 AM
why is kenpachi even is this thread...? reiatsu wise he is strong...but he has 0 communication with his zanpukto...0 techs...this is the thread for attack type zanpukto....for all we know he could have a kido type zanpukto...

and why does the poll have ikkaku but not ichigo, yamamoto, fox guy...?
may be ppl here are confusing many zanpukto's as kido type...

only 3 shinigami so far has been shown with kido type zan...yumichika, hinamori, aizen
tousen's in probably one also...
rest are elemental types like fire: yamamoto/ice:rukia,hitsugaya/water:kaien/wind:kensei,hisagi or pure attack types:ichigo, komamura,byakuya,ikkaku.

Jamil2009
October 15, 2009, 06:27 AM
Im gonna go with a dark horse ... Ichimaru Gin. His sword has only ever been used in shikai, and he has not even come close to losing. His genius level swordsmanship, and unknown sword extents imply that he is ridiculous in cutting potential

Good point. But I don't think it would be singularly untrue is I were to say that Gin is not so much a great swordsman as he is a sneaky, two-timing psycho with enough basic skills in the art of sword-fighting to come off as impressive. Let's review his achievements till date.

Ichigo vs. Gin. Here, we both know that Ichigo was still fresh right out of the Shinigami oven (baked Urahara-style [hehe]) and was evidently no match for Gin. So Shinsou causing Zangetsu to crack was rather unavoidable.

Hitsugaya vs. Gin. As the fight neared its end, Toushiro had the upper-hand as he had frozen one of Ichimaru's arms and would have quite easily dealt him (Ichimaru) a serious blow. But Gin, being the green-snake-in-tall-green-grass that he is, shot Shinsou at the fallen Hinamori which obviously distracted Toushiro.

Hiyori vs. Gin (well, not so much 'versus' as 'conquered by'). Hiyori did not know Gin had gotten behind her. The whelp just fired Shinsou and sliced her in half. Why is that of any consequence? Because things might have been different had she known she was being assailed.

So it's not that his sword has been used only in Shikai and he has never been defeated; it's more of Gin is just too good at what we know him for.
In any case though, we do not know the full extent of his abilities or powers and I'm quite sure that, as it stands, he would be defeated by all three options (yup, even Ikkaku).
[hr]

How is Kenpachi even on the list? His zanpaktou is useless. No, as a matter of fact his zanpatkou is actually a handicap as it works against him. He'd be better of tossing that thing and getting himself a well-crafted katana.

Kenpachi is ridiculously strong because of his very own reiatsu and swordsmanship, which is what makes him so badass. Remember his rank about how only weaklings rely on their zanpaktou's abilities? That was awesome.

His katana isn't that useless. After all, it isn't its fault Kenpachi never bothered to bond with it. And besides, Kenpachi would still need a katana even if he got rid of this one, so it's like why not stick with the katana he knows than taking up one he would have to get used to.
[hr]

Does the thread include bankai too? I would increase my list if that is the case.

Yes, it does. It includes all their known abilities and powers.

ganjabuss
October 15, 2009, 06:29 AM
@Jamil2009
when did ichigo's blade crack from gin?...ichigo's blade was cracked only once by zaraki kenpchi...he was pushed back by gin...there was no cracking of the blade...

benelori
October 15, 2009, 06:39 AM
I have to agree with ganjabuss...yama should stomp anyone in this thread...it's not just opinion, but manga fact...
GT is pretty powerful, and ichigo can tune himself with a mask so he should be in top as well...
I'm not sure how to rate them...yama is definitely the first, but about the rest I'll just nominate them...
komamura
ichigo
hitsu
soi fon's bankai
love
renji
ikkaku's bankai
I probably forgot some people, these names just popped in

Jamil2009
October 15, 2009, 06:39 AM
if with attack based zanpaktou you mean based on actual physical attributes there is only 1 zanpaktou that would realy qualify: Ikkaku's houzukimaru
houzukimaru only increases the physical strenght of ikkaku and augments his skills in close combat. This also is the only zanpaktou that increases the physical strenght of its wielder.
the second and third place go to Ichigo's Zangetsu and Renji's Zabimaru.
Both ichigo and renji their zanpaktou are based on their own physical strenght, while ichigo relies more on speed then strenght.
Komamura's Tenken doesnt rely on its user own strenght, however i dont claim komamura isnt strong. I wouldnt put his Tenken into a physical/attack power based zanpaktou.

Richo, this is for only Zanpakutoh that rely on physical sword to sword combat to be effective and do not rely on kidou or the elements. Both Zangetsu and Zabimaru have kidou attacks that are utilised rather often in battle (Zangetsu's Getsuga and Zabimaru's Hikotsu Taihou).

benelori
October 15, 2009, 06:40 AM
dude only kido type zanpukto we've been shown are hinamori's, yumichika's and aizen's.....
yamamoto's is definitely not kido type...it's fire-type...

and there's tousen, ukitake...but UR right yama is not

Jamil2009
October 15, 2009, 06:42 AM
@Jamil2009
when did ichigo's blade crack from gin?...ichigo's blade was cracked only once by zaraki kenpchi...he was pushed back by gin...there was no cracking of the blade...

You might be right but I kinda remember Zangetsu cracking under Shinsou's pressure. You can direct me to the chapter if you know which one it happened in.

benelori
October 15, 2009, 06:48 AM
Richo, this is for only Zanpakutoh that rely on physical sword to sword combat to be effective and do not rely on kidou or the elements. Both Zangetsu and Zabimaru have kidou attacks that are utilised rather often in battle (Zangetsu's Getsuga and Zabimaru's Hikotsu Taihou).

I see...then we should consider renji's shikai only...if this thread is about plain sword power...see ichigo fighting kenpachi...that attack was not gt so ichigo has pretty much power, too...
This thread should rather sound like...who has the biggest physical power when deals a blow with a zanpaktou...komamura, yama, kenpachi...basically all the characters who have great reiatsu to enhance their attack
[hr]

You might be right but I kinda remember Zangetsu cracking under Shinsou's pressure. You can direct me to the chapter if you know which one it happened in.

It's chapter 75 but panels are not so clear, but I don't remember zangetsu cracking, but it's maybe just the anime

Jamil2009
October 15, 2009, 06:48 AM
I see...then we should consider renji's shikai only...if this thread is about plain sword power...see ichigo fighting kenpachi...that attack was not gt so ichigo has pretty much power, too...
This thread should rather sound like...who has the biggest physical power when deals a blow with a zanpaktou...komamura, yama, kenpachi...basically all the characters who have great reiatsu to enhance their attack

In shikai Renji would be Destroyed by any of the three options; even in Bankai mode Renji would hardly survive any of them. And the shikai stuff goes for Ichigo of the past as well (remember, Zaraki wasn't using Kendo which he used on Nnoitra). And like I stated in an earlier response, this is for Zanpakutohs whose attacks rely 99.9999999% (if not 100%) on physical BLADE TO BLADE techniques without recourse to any other technique, be it kidou or element.

benelori
October 15, 2009, 06:54 AM
In shikai Renji would be Destroyed by any of the three options. Same goes for Ichigo of the past (remember, Zaraki wasn't using Kendo which he used on Nnoitra). And like I stated in an earlier response, this is for Zanpakutohs whose attacks rely 99.9999999% (if not 100%) on physical BLADE TO BLADE techniques without recourse to any other technique, be it kidou or element.

I didn't say renji is a top strong fighter....his shikai was destroyed bare handed by aizen, but he is a VC so he is strong, but not captain-like

ganjabuss
October 15, 2009, 06:55 AM
You might be right but I kinda remember Zangetsu cracking under Shinsou's pressure. You can direct me to the chapter if you know which one it happened in.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/75/16/
keep going until the 3rd page of ch. 76

Jamil2009
October 15, 2009, 06:59 AM
For all who post henceforth, I ought to clarify the parameters.

1. We know a lot about the wielders capabilities and powers.
2. The Zanpakutoh does NOT resort to any other form of fighting technique save only for direct BLADE TO BLADE contact where the battle is decided by the sheer strength of the wielder.


Sorry for any previous misdirections.

ganjabuss
October 15, 2009, 07:00 AM
zangetsu[ichigo's] is a sword that has cut trough kenpachi's sword, stopped sokyoku, broke sokyoku stage, broke senbonzakura's bankai's final stage...and he isn't on this poll...meh...

Jamil2009
October 15, 2009, 07:04 AM
I didn't say renji is a top strong fighter....his shikai was destroyed bare handed by aizen, but he is a VC so he is strong, but not captain-like

Yes, he is strong. The recent filler episode proved that. But his strongest front (bankai) uses a kidou technique (Hikotsu Taihou) and thus disqualifies him from this poll.
[hr]

zangetsu[ichigo's] is a sword that has cut trough kenpachi's sword, stopped sokyoku, broke sokyoku stage, broke senbonzakura's bankai's final stage...and he isn't on this poll...meh...

That "meh" stuff kinda cracked me up. Anyway, I am in no way diputing that Zangetsu is formidable. But Zangetsu utilises kidou. Even if he did not use Getsuga to break Zaraki's sword or stop Sokyouku or defeat Senkei, the fact remains that Zangetsu isn't ALL physical and so does not qualify for the poll.

ganjabuss
October 15, 2009, 07:32 AM
dude u have got it all wrong... zangetsu in no way utilizes kido...u might say zangtsu doesn't qualify coz of GT which is not blade to blade by ur preference for this thread...but no kido...

Getsuga Tenshō (月牙天衝, Moon Fang Heaven-Piercer; "Piercer of Heaven" in the English anime): Zangetsu fires concentrated energy blasts from the tip of his blade in the shape of a crescent moon or in a shape of a wave.

it's like kenpachi's sword swings cutting building when his patch is taken off...every zanpukto is capable of that...only his zanpukto can concentrate that power for better effect...if that's kido then every zanpukto utilizes kido...ur thread is pointless...
[hr]
also follow this link...types section
http://bleach.wikia.com/wiki/Zanpakutō

ichigo's zanpukto is listed as Melee-Type Zanpakutō

Jamil2009
October 15, 2009, 07:43 AM
dude u have got it all wrong... zangetsu in no way utilizes kido...u might say zangtsu doesn't qualify coz of GT which is not blade to blade by ur preference for this thread...but no kido...

Getsuga Tenshō (月牙天衝, Moon Fang Heaven-Piercer; "Piercer of Heaven" in the English anime): Zangetsu fires concentrated energy blasts from the tip of his blade in the shape of a crescent moon or in a shape of a wave.

it's like kenpachi's sword swings cutting building when his patch is taken off...every zanpukto is capable of that...only his zanpukto can concentrate that power for better effect...if that's kido then every zanpukto utilizes kido...ur thread is pointless...
<hr noshade size="1">
also follow this link...types section
http://bleach.wikia.com/wiki/Zanpakutō

ichigo's zanpukto is listed as Melee-Type Zanpakutō

About Zaraki's swing. I don't think that is the right analogy for GT. Why? Because if Zaraki's blade took on it's full size (as explained by Ishin) it would have been able to slice the building anyways. So I don't think it was his reiatsu that cut the building, it was his blade.

About Zangetsu. Yes, it is a melee-type Zanpakutoh but I still stand by what I said before. It isn't all melee, that is why it is disqualified from the poll.

And not all Shinigami can achieve what Zaraki did with their Zanpakutoh.

ganjabuss
October 15, 2009, 07:54 AM
well u r one of those ppl who isn't gonna change his mind even if the proof otherwise is right in front of u...
i feel stupid for wasting my time on u...

Jamil2009
October 15, 2009, 08:08 AM
well u r one of those ppl who isn't gonna change his mind even if the proof otherwise is right in front of u...
i feel stupid for wasting my time on u...

G, why so agressive? All I asked is for your opinion and you gave it. All well and good. About the facts, which facts? You mentioned Zaraki slicing up the building and I implied a known truth about captain-level Shinigami. I am rereading chapter 75 right now trying to ascertain whether or not Zangetsu got cracked by Shinsou, something you justly pointed out was inaccurate.

So cool it with the agressive takes. It's an opinion poll and I am cross-checking my facts against yours.

Forever_Melody
October 15, 2009, 08:50 AM
Ok Im confused now. Does this thread include users or not? Because if it does, it basically isn't a question of the pure shape of the Zanpakuto anymore, but now it's more a question of who's wielding it :oh

Jamil2009
October 15, 2009, 10:02 AM
Ok Im confused now. Does this thread include users or not? Because if it does, it basically isn't a question of the pure shape of the Zanpakuto anymore, but now it's more a question of who's wielding it :oh

Let me put it this way. If Byakuya and Kenpachi faced off and fought using the utmost extent of their Zanpakutohs abilities (all known abilities) who would win? This is what I actually meant to convey by the opening post. Sorry for any misdirections.

Random101
October 15, 2009, 10:19 AM
Reiatsu isn't everything. If it were, Ichigo would hardly have any contenders. The katana plays its part too.
Of course the katana plays a part. For other people. For Kenpachi it was outright stated that his katana makes him weaker because he doesn't use it at all and totes all his power himself. Ergo in a discussion on the strongest attack type Zanpakuto, he's auto exempt.

Jamil2009
October 15, 2009, 10:24 AM
Of course the katana plays a part. For other people. For Kenpachi it was outright stated that his katana makes him weaker because he doesn't use it at all and totes all his power himself. Ergo in a discussion on the strongest attack type Zanpakuto, he's auto exempt.

True, his Zanpakutoh makes him weaker but nonetheless that's the Zanpakutoh he uses. Thus no matter how useless the Zanpakutoh it still is his fighting weapon. What I mean to say is that Zaraki would not be as formidable as he is without it.

Forever_Melody
October 15, 2009, 10:26 AM
So basically, you're just pitting melee type Zanpakuto users against each and asking who'd win(using only said Zanpakuto)?

Because you know, Kenpachi could win, but it'd be more due to his reiatsu than his Zanpakuto. Or Byakuya could win, but he'd use Sunpo a lot or something.

Random101
October 15, 2009, 10:26 AM
Actually he'd be more formidable because his Katana weakens him.

Jamil2009
October 15, 2009, 10:44 AM
So basically, you're just pitting melee type Zanpakuto users against each and asking who'd win(using only said Zanpakuto)?

Because you know, Kenpachi could win, but it'd be more due to his reiatsu than his Zanpakuto. Or Byakuya could win, but he'd use Sunpo a lot or something.

Zaraki does have a lot of reiatsu, no doubt about that. But how would he be able to fight at all without a Zanpakutoh? It's not just that he has a huge amount of reiatsu but he would need to have something to use that reiatsu with while fighting. And even though his blade would not be as sharp as it is without the huge reiatsu, his reiatsu won't come to much without the blade.

Random101
October 15, 2009, 10:51 AM
He could, I don't know, get a regular asuchi that wouldn't weaken him. Or use hand to hand combat, which is just as deadly frankly. Ultimately that point is self defeating because we're talking about the strongest attack type Zanpakuto. Zaraki's doesn't work because as opposed to making it's weilder stronger, it weakens him, and it's only because Kenpachi is so monstrous that it's effectual at all.

Jamil2009
October 15, 2009, 10:52 AM
Actually he'd be more formidable because his Katana weakens him.

But Zaraki wouldn't be able tto fight bare-handed, would he? Look, perhaps the contention here is whether or not Zaraki wields a mere katana (perhaps one he picked up from someplace) or a Zanpakutoh (his soul's true blade). I admit I cannot say for sure which it is but I think that it is a Zanpakutoh he wields and not a mere katana. Why? Because after he was defeated by Ichigo (in the anime) and he is with Yachiru, he looks at his sword and passively asks it what its name is.

Now, if it is a Zanpakutoh he can't just discard and have another one forged. That's how I see it, though.

Random101
October 15, 2009, 10:54 AM
Sentimental value, or whatever that revealation means, doesn't change the fact that it still weakens him. You're looking for a thread to use when there really isn't one. The ONLY reason his blade is as effective as it is is because Kenpachi is a monster. In actuality, his blade weakens him, hence as an attack type Zanpakuto it is easily among the worst.

Edit: Basically if we took wielders into consideration, Yamamoto would win regardless of the fact that his blade uses fire, simply because he's more effective with in in sword form than a lot of people are with Bankai.

Forever_Melody
October 15, 2009, 10:55 AM
Well my personal point was that if you're pitting people against each other, ew're lookinga t more than just the Zanpakuto(which I thought was the initial purpose of the thread). We're looking at other factors such as the speed & strength of the users, their strategy and their combat experience. This moves away from the topic of "melee" Zanpakuto(as the Zanpakuto's functionality wmight fall 2nd to other aspects of the fight).

Basically, you're just picking out a category of Shinigamis(those with melee type Zanpakuto) and putting them in a big Versus thread lol :p

Jamil2009
October 15, 2009, 11:11 AM
He could, I don't know, get a regular asuchi that wouldn't weaken him. Or use hand to hand combat, which is just as deadly frankly. Ultimately that point is self defeating because we're talking about the strongest attack type Zanpakuto. Zaraki's doesn't work because as opposed to making it's weilder stronger, it weakens him, and it's only because Kenpachi is so monstrous that it's effectual at all.

A regular Asauchi would probably break under Zaraki's reiatsu and the way he'd use it :p. Perhaps that's why his katana or Zanpakutoh has a serrated edge.

kkck
October 15, 2009, 11:17 AM
dude only kido type zanpukto we've been shown are hinamori's, yumichika's and aizen's.....
yamamoto's is definitely not kido type...it's fire-type...

Aren't elemental type zampakuto considered kido type though? At least until now I have always seen it that way given that they don't fit in very well along the normal melee type zampakuto.

Jamil2009
October 15, 2009, 11:57 AM
Sentimental value, or whatever that revealation means, doesn't change the fact that it still weakens him. You're looking for a thread to use when there really isn't one. The ONLY reason his blade is as effective as it is is because Kenpachi is a monster. In actuality, his blade weakens him, hence as an attack type Zanpakuto it is easily among the worst.

Edit: Basically if we took wielders into consideration, Yamamoto would win regardless of the fact that his blade uses fire, simply because he's more effective with in in sword form than a lot of people are with Bankai.

Forgive my impertinence. I think I flopped with this thread big-time seeing as I don't seem to be making any sense. But I would like to get somethings straight.

One. Does the reiatsu make the blade? If yes, then I won't say this thread is all that pointless because with reiatsu included there could still be competition among the options.

Two. By taking the wielder into consideration it means you agree with One above. But even if Yama effectively fights with his sealed sword that does not mean he doesn't have other options besides that. Like you rightly stated he uses fire, an element.

What I was trying to pitch was if two Shinigami, whose Zanpakutohs based solely on BLADE TO BLADE contact, were pitted against each other, who would win? But perhaps I screwed it up with the opening post where I mentioned that everything we know about the options should be considered because one can't really think of Byakuya and not consider how fast he could be in a fight. But thing is, no matter how fast Byakuya is Senbonzakura is still his blade and all its attacks are still BLADE TO BLADE.
[hr]

Well my personal point was that if you're pitting people against each other, ew're lookinga t more than just the Zanpakuto(which I thought was the initial purpose of the thread). We're looking at other factors such as the speed & strength of the users, their strategy and their combat experience. This moves away from the topic of "melee" Zanpakuto(as the Zanpakuto's functionality wmight fall 2nd to other aspects of the fight).

Basically, you're just picking out a category of Shinigamis(those with melee type Zanpakuto) and putting them in a big Versus thread lol :p

Putting the current filler aside, for Zanpakutoh to be used Shinigami have to fight. And it should also be remembered that Zanpakutoh are unique and that they are linked to the Shinigami.

But I agree half-way with you. I might have rushed into this thread without first properly structuring it. I should have considered that people would also assess speed in the process. But still, even with speed an attack is only as good as the strength backing it (which would have to be enough to over-power the opponent). So BLADE TO BLADE wise, if Byakuya and Ikkaku fought, if Ikkaku and Zaraki fought, if Zaraki and Byakuya fought, who would be tops? That was kinda what I was aiming for in this thread but I lost it somewhere...:facepalm
[hr]

Aren't elemental type zampakuto considered kido type though? At least until now I have always seen it that way given that they don't fit in very well along the normal melee type zampakuto.

Not really. According to the BleachWiki Element-Based Zanpakutoh differ from Kidou-Based Zanpakutoh.

And, I have to say, I LOVE you signature pic. Very amusing:D
[hr]

@Jamil2009
when did ichigo's blade crack from gin?...ichigo's blade was cracked only once by zaraki kenpchi...he was pushed back by gin...there was no cracking of the blade...

Yeah, just finished reading the chapter and you were right. But I had watched the anime and I really remember Zangetsu cracking right where Shinsou made contact. Dunno, though.

kkck
October 15, 2009, 12:19 PM
Not really. According to the BleachWiki Element-Based Zanpakutoh differ from Kidou-Based Zanpakutoh.

And, I have to say, I LOVE you signature pic. Very amusing

Well, the bleach wiki is made by fans so things that haven't been much elaborated upon in the manga are always murky there. Just take a look at benihime and zamgetsu, they are placed in different categories even though they are extremely similar. The very types described there are made up given that mostly they are not found in the manga.

Since there have not been many facts about this in the manga it is hard to reach a concensus but I would still think elemental zampakuto fall under the kido type category. At the very least it is outright obvious they are completely different from melee type zampakutos though since they do not rely on it. Most of them barely change after releasing(with a few exceptions)....

Eddy01741
October 15, 2009, 01:29 PM
Misleading title to the second power. A mod should change it to: "Who is the strongest shinigami with a physical type zanpakutou?"

Anyways, in that case, it's clearly Kenpachi or Byakuya, here's my explanation for why:

All VCs or below: Not even a chance against these two

Komamura: We've seen him use his bankai once (yes, he released to his bankai vs. Kenpachi, but we don't know how that ended, since it cut away to the execution, bankai vs. Aizen, well, he just got wtfpwned in 1 second). And the one he used his bankai on (Pou) was in no way a worthy opponent, as both Ken and Byakuya would have owned Pou just as easily.

Gin: Only seen shikai, he's only used his shikai a few times (killed hollows in Renji/kira/momo's mini-gaiden, used it vs. Jidanbou and Ichigo, used it to try and kill Rukia, used it against Hitsu/Momo, used it vs. Hiyori), he's never actually had a full fledged fight. So, from what we've seen, he hasn't been more impressive yet.


So, that leaves only Byakuya and Kenpachi, and there's a discussion thread for that battle as well somewhere on this subforum.

Tsukisama
October 15, 2009, 02:27 PM
Concerning melee-type versus kidou-type zanpakutou, no ultimate definition has been given in the manga, and I haven't seen it mentioned any databook. (Like kkck said, Bleach Wiki is written by Bleach fans and not always properly sourced. If the statement is unsourced, then you need to take it with a grain of salt.)

Logically, there should be no distinction between kidou-type zanpakutou and elemental zanpakutou, as they both rely on kidou. We have seen kidou used to generate element effects (Byakurai or Shakuhou (sp?), for example, being lighting and fire-pulse thing kind of similar to Hinamori's zanpakutou ability). Yumichika's zanpakutou is stated by him to be a kidou-type zanpakutou. It produces reiatsu-draining vines that sprout flowers. There is elemental nature to that as well. Kidou produces effects, and those effects can easily be elemental in nature.

When Yumichika made the statement (the only statement that delineates zanpakutou into kidou-type and melee-type), he was referring to zanpakutou that had some sort of magical effect that and didn't solely rely on the user's physical skill. Most zanpakutou seen thus far don't seem to be like that, but since this characteristic was only mentioned as an admirable quality of the 11th division, it wouldn't need to be very common.

Ikkaku's zanpakutou is a pure melee-type zanpakutou. It is just a weapon in both shikai and bankai forms. It doesn't release any sort of magical attack or effect.

Ichigo's zanpakutou would not be a melee-type zanpakutou because it has a kidou attack, Getsuga Tenshou.

Renji's zanpakutou is a melee-type zanpakutou in shikai but not in bankai, as the bankai can shoot an energy blast.
[hr]
Also, I am a bit curious why the interest over melee-type zanpakutou in particular in comparison to all other zanpakutou. I know that there are different distinctions among zanpakutou, but why just separate out melee-type? :?bunny

Jamil2009
October 16, 2009, 12:19 PM
Concerning melee-type versus kidou-type zanpakutou, no ultimate definition has been given in the manga, and I haven't seen it mentioned any databook. (Like kkck said, Bleach Wiki is written by Bleach fans and not always properly sourced. If the statement is unsourced, then you need to take it with a grain of salt.)

Logically, there should be no distinction between kidou-type zanpakutou and elemental zanpakutou, as they both rely on kidou. We have seen kidou used to generate element effects (Byakurai or Shakuhou (sp?), for example, being lighting and fire-pulse thing kind of similar to Hinamori's zanpakutou ability). Yumichika's zanpakutou is stated by him to be a kidou-type zanpakutou. It produces reiatsu-draining vines that sprout flowers. There is elemental nature to that as well. Kidou produces effects, and those effects can easily be elemental in nature.

When Yumichika made the statement (the only statement that delineates zanpakutou into kidou-type and melee-type), he was referring to zanpakutou that had some sort of magical effect that and didn't solely rely on the user's physical skill. Most zanpakutou seen thus far don't seem to be like that, but since this characteristic was only mentioned as an admirable quality of the 11th division, it wouldn't need to be very common.

Ikkaku's zanpakutou is a pure melee-type zanpakutou. It is just a weapon in both shikai and bankai forms. It doesn't release any sort of magical attack or effect.

Ichigo's zanpakutou would not be a melee-type zanpakutou because it has a kidou attack, Getsuga Tenshou.

Renji's zanpakutou is a melee-type zanpakutou in shikai but not in bankai, as the bankai can shoot an energy blast.
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Also, I am a bit curious why the interest over melee-type zanpakutou in particular in comparison to all other zanpakutou. I know that there are different distinctions among zanpakutou, but why just separate out melee-type? :?bunny

I am deeply thankful to you for this post Tsukisama. I REALLY AM! I have had quite some trouble trying to relate what you have succinctly put down to many others but I just seemed to miss the mark.

First off, is there any way I can either change the title of the thread or delete the thread altogether (someone says there's already a similar post in this forum). I am truly sorry about all the confusion I stirred up. It was my first post and I admit it was shabbily executed, title-wise and structure-wise. So please I would need help either modifying or deleting it.

I chose Melee-Type Zanpakutoh because they are the only group of Zanpakuoths that really tell how powerful a blade is. Kidou-Type Zans are all well and good but until Kubo gives a clear winner one can't really say which Kidou-Type is the best. Though Yumichika's seems to be potent, it has major down-falls as of present. One is the irreconciliable fact that Yumichika will not use it's true power in public view. Two is that at its current state (Shikai) it might not be able to absorb that much reiatsu (say on the level of a captain or espada) before it is exhausted (it is unknown whether a second set of flowers would bloom after the first set has matured). And we all know the current most-powerful Element-Type Zan (Yama, Hitsugaya is at least 5000 years too young :p). But the Melee-Type Zans have not been given a winner even though we've seen enough to get a good idea who is tops.

Thank you again for this post and PLEASE post more!
[hr]

Misleading title to the second power. A mod should change it to: "Who is the strongest shinigami with a physical type zanpakutou?"

Anyways, in that case, it's clearly Kenpachi or Byakuya, here's my explanation for why:

All VCs or below: Not even a chance against these two

Komamura: We've seen him use his bankai once (yes, he released to his bankai vs. Kenpachi, but we don't know how that ended, since it cut away to the execution, bankai vs. Aizen, well, he just got wtfpwned in 1 second). And the one he used his bankai on (Pou) was in no way a worthy opponent, as both Ken and Byakuya would have owned Pou just as easily.

Gin: Only seen shikai, he's only used his shikai a few times (killed hollows in Renji/kira/momo's mini-gaiden, used it vs. Jidanbou and Ichigo, used it to try and kill Rukia, used it against Hitsu/Momo, used it vs. Hiyori), he's never actually had a full fledged fight. So, from what we've seen, he hasn't been more impressive yet.


So, that leaves only Byakuya and Kenpachi, and there's a discussion thread for that battle as well somewhere on this subforum.

Sorry about the misleading title. I am presently trying to get it altered or delete the thread altogether since, as you say, there's already a similar thread elsewhere.

poobert
October 16, 2009, 01:08 PM
I consider Ichigo to have a physical zanpakto. His shikai is characterised by its huge pulverising reatsu, enormous strength and its energy blast. The sword however is unfinished, and unwieldy.

His bankai turn him in to a physical attack beast. It slims his sword, making it more manoeuvrable, while keeping the attack and cutting power up. It also increases his speed to make him victorious in man to man combat. Getsuga is still there, but Ichigo can use it to up his physical attack power.

Ichigo's fights are always won or lost on speed, strength and skill.

Basically, if someone's bankai enables them to fight with a weapon, one on one, and you can not envisage them winning on a technicality due to a zanpakto ability, they have a physical attack zanpakto. Ichigo would never win over a getsuga technicality, so he has a physical zan.

An example of a weak one would be Kenpachi's. It has huge reatsu, but it is a broken sword with a heavily chipped blade. Its energy does not work with ken and reduces the overall cutting power. It has more downsides than Ichigo's oversized shikai, and without a bankai, it is weaker still.


Of course no one seems to agree with me giving Ichi a physical type zan for some reason..... And I don't agree with anyone saying byakuya has one. He can win on a technicality due to a zan ability and only melee fights in his ultimate bankai mode. It is also impossible to judge strength, reatsu and cutting power as he does not directly engage with his enemies blade.

Forever_Melody
October 16, 2009, 01:19 PM
It depends how one qualifies "melee/physical" Zanpakuto.

Personally, I believe the best explanation is the one Tsuki provided i.e. that a physical Zanpakuto is one whose "ability" only changes the Zanpakuto's shape, while not giving it any extra powers non-related to this shape change(ex: the ice produced by Hyourinmaru). Any further related ability of the Zanpakuto is in conjecture to this change of shape(ex: Zabimaru being able to extend in Shikai mode).

With this definition, Senbonzakura should qualify as all it does in both Shikai and Bankai mode is change shape i.e. it separates into millions of tiny blades. No other ability is ever really given to Senbonzakura other than relating to how Byakuya decides to place the blades(ex: surround the opponent or surround him for defense). Byakuya himself relies on more than blade-to-blade combat(using Shunpo and Kidou), but Senbonzakura purely speaking IMO should be considered a physical Zanpakto since all it does in Shikai and Bankai mode is change its shape.

If you need an example, would you consider this guy (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/91/17/)'s Zanpakuto physical? If so, then Senbonzakura follows a similar principle of abilities so it should follow the same logic of choice.

poobert
October 16, 2009, 01:52 PM
If you need an example, would you consider this guy (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/91/17/)'s Zanpakuto physical? If so, then Senbonzakura follows a similar principle of abilities so it should follow the same logic of choice.

Nope, that would be an ability (non kido) based zanpakto, which is different from a physical one as it does not facilitate hand to hand combat.

There is no physical effort going on to wield it (as opposed to your definition of the actual zanpakto being a physical object). While byakuya's special move is physical, it is not his main method of attack, so that too is not a physical zanpakto. Nor is Rangiku's which is more like byakuya's sword than kido based.

A physical zanpakto would have a physical object in its main method of attack (ruling out elements), using physical force (ruling out byakuya) and not relying on kido or other abilities as its main method of attack (ruling out Shunsui and SoiFon and Kira). Abilities that augment physical attacks are fine, like Gin.

I would list popular ones as:
Ichigo, Renji, Ikakku, Kenpachi, Iba, Omaeda, Gin, Komamaru (i think) and Hisagi

Forever_Melody
October 16, 2009, 02:57 PM
Well once again, it comes down to definition. The manga has never stated any particular definition of any "type" of Zanpakuto other than specifying the existence of Kidou-based Zanpakuto as well as Elemental ones.

No other types have ever been outwardly mentioned nor defined. In fact, as Tsuki said, the manga and databooks themselves do not define even the types we know(Kidou & Elemental) properly so it's all up to the readers as to how they define them.

I personally find such classifications trivial at best as nobody except the 11th Division really seems to care about what "type" your Zanpakuto is.

Shola
October 16, 2009, 08:22 PM
If Byakuya or Gin are being considered as having strong shikais then Tousen must be considered as well as his 2nd form is similar to both

zerocooldx
October 16, 2009, 08:59 PM
I'm going to go with old man Yamamoto. The ability of his Zanpakuto can basically take on a life of it's own. And who knows what else he could do with fire.

Akhkharu
October 17, 2009, 08:14 AM
So, is Ichigo's zanpakuto considered a combat type or a kido type? because it has elements of both. it raises his speed and raises his strength, which would make it a combat type sword. But it also fires getsuga tensho, which seems to make it a kido type sword. So which is it? Or is it both????

poobert
October 17, 2009, 09:44 AM
So, is Ichigo's zanpakuto considered a combat type or a kido type?

As it has been stated, it is all down to personal interpretation. Put it in whatever category you think it should be in.

Maybe try the kenpachi test. If you can picture the zanpakto being accepted in to Kenapchi's division, it is an attack type :)

Eddy01741
October 17, 2009, 10:56 AM
Well, Kenpachi found Ichigo to be one of his most worthy opponents, but back then, Ichigo didn't know how to intentionally fire GTs (he did fire them occasionally in practice sessions vs. Urahara, as well as when he gained his "resolve" vs. Renji, and he likely fired one off against Kenpachi in their final clash).

Also, Renji was in the 11th division before he was promoted to VC.

Akhkharu
October 17, 2009, 01:18 PM
As it has been stated, it is all down to personal interpretation. Put it in whatever category you think it should be in.

Maybe try the kenpachi test. If you can picture the zanpakto being accepted in to Kenapchi's division, it is an attack type :)

i guess hypothetically i can see him being accepted into 11th division. and i guess the other guy is right about renji. Renji's shikai and bankai both have kido elements "baboon bone cannon, and the thing where his shikai or bankai blow up" and i can see him being in 11th division as well, since his sword is primarily a combat type. both are combat types the simply have a kido based attack as well as combat attacks. unlike yumichika who's sword is pretty much useless in it's shikai form if he doesnt use it's special ability.

kkck
October 17, 2009, 01:37 PM
Wouldn't byakuyas blade also count as a kido type? I know it technically uses blades to attack directly but the control over this blades depends strictly on byakuyas indirect control through his mind. Given that is does not require byakuya to move in order to use this power, I would think it is more of the kido type.

As for the strongest melee type zampakuto assuming the reiatsu behind them is the same, I would have to go for ikkaku's bankai. It is by all means a mass of overwhelming power. I doubt any other melee type zampakuto can stand up to it. Hell, given the damage edorad received from it, it seems as if the blow from it is so strong is has a explosive effect.

I don't think kempachi's sword should be considered here lol. For one the debate about it being a shikai or sealed zampakuto is still going on. It also seems to have no special properties whatsoever. The only thing that sword has going for it is the fact that it has a huge reiatsu behind it. Without it, it really has nothing going on.

Jamil2009
October 17, 2009, 03:31 PM
If Byakuya or Gin are being considered as having strong shikais then Tousen must be considered as well as his 2nd form is similar to both

How so, though? Benihikou might resemble Sebonzakura but no so much as it is a number of flying blades. Byakuya's blade shatters and spreads while Gin's extends.

By the way I am in STRICT concordance with your signature. I can't see too many other options with Aizen.
[hr]

Wouldn't byakuyas blade also count as a kido type? I know it technically uses blades to attack directly but the control over this blades depends strictly on byakuyas indirect control through his mind. Given that is does not require byakuya to move in order to use this power, I would think it is more of the kido type.

As for the strongest melee type zampakuto assuming the reiatsu behind them is the same, I would have to go for ikkaku's bankai. It is by all means a mass of overwhelming power. I doubt any other melee type zampakuto can stand up to it. Hell, given the damage edorad received from it, it seems as if the blow from it is so strong is has a explosive effect.

I don't think kempachi's sword should be considered here lol. For one the debate about it being a shikai or sealed zampakuto is still going on. It also seems to have no special properties whatsoever. The only thing that sword has going for it is the fact that it has a huge reiatsu behind it. Without it, it really has nothing going on.

Great post. But I disagree with the first part. Though Byakuka does not have to move around while handling Shikai or Bankai it does not make his Zan a Kidou-Type Zan. His blades still make contact with his opponent's and that's quite the deal with Melee-Type Zans.

kkck
October 17, 2009, 04:52 PM
But doesn't the mind control(call it that for lack of a better name, do not take it that seriously lol) count as kido? The damaged dealt by it is very physical but the mechanisms behind it seem even more kidoish than anything.

Shola
October 17, 2009, 05:20 PM
How so, though? Benihikou might resemble Sebonzakura but no so much as it is a number of flying blades. Byakuya's blade shatters and spreads while Gin's extends.

By the way I am in STRICT concordance with your signature. I can't see too many other options with Aizen.
<hr noshade size="1">

Finally...a thinker!
[hr]
[QUOTE=Jamil2009;1629593]How so, though? Benihikou might resemble Sebonzakura but no so much as it is a number of flying blades. Byakuya's blade shatters and spreads while Gin's extends.

By the way I am in STRICT concordance with your signature. I can't see too many other options with Aizen.
<hr noshade size="1">


Great post. But I disagree with the first part. Though Byakuka does not have to move around while handling Shikai or Bankai it does not make his Zan a Kidou-Type Zan. His blades still make contact with his opponent's and that's quite the deal with Melee-Type Zans.

Dude. its a bunch of blades that both extend and spread. :s

Tsukisama
October 17, 2009, 06:45 PM
I've altered the title to refer to melee-type zanpakutou, which hopefully will clear up some confusion, but ultimately I don't see going much of anywhere until some sort of consensus is reached on a definition of melee-type vs. kidou-type. (Concerning elemental-types, I still see them as a subset of the kidou-type that just manipulates the kidou into a particular elemental effect.)

I have seen two thoughts behind the definition employed by some in this thread. I'll summarize the two:

Definition 1: Melee-type in the purest sense

A melee-type zanpakutou is defined by not relying on kidou to produce an external magical effect. This would include any sort of energy-based attack. This would not include physical manipulation of the zanpakutou, such as the zanpakutou changing shape or moving about independently of the wielder (telekinetically controlled).
A kidou-type zanpakutou is defined by a zanpakutou that uses kidou in some fashion to produce an external magical effect. This could range from replicating some natural effect to simple energy manipulation.


Definition 2: Melee-type defined by how it is used by wielder

A melee-type zanpakutou is defined by how the user uses it regardless of whether or not it can produce kidou-based attacks. If the zanpakutou is primarily focused on physical abilities with the kidou-based attack(s) not being a necessary component to adequately using the zanpakutou in released form, then it would qualify.
A kidou-type zanpakutou is defined by a zanpakutou that possess a kidou-based ability that is essential to the usage of the zanpakutou in its released form.


Of the two defintions, the one I employ when thinking about melee-type zanpakutou (and the one I suggest using in this thread) is the first definition. The second definition is far too subjective to be used in a discussion.

An example would be classifying Zangetsu. By the first definition, it is clearly a kidou-type zanpakutou through its energy attack, Getsuga Tenshou. By the second definition, it comes down to a matter of opinion. Zangetsu can be used fairly effectively in a fight without relying on Getsuga Tenshou in some people's opinions, but one could also argue that the kidou-based attack is an integral part of combat using Zangetsu.

So, I will let the discussion continue for a while longer to decide how to view melee-type zanpakutou and then that decision will be edited into the first post for clarification. Also, I'm thinking of removing the poll, as it is rather biased, focusing on those three characters. (I agree with whomever said Kenpachi probably shouldn't be considered a melee-type zanpakutou, as its true nature is still ambiguous to the reader and perhaps to Kenpachi himself.)

Shola
October 17, 2009, 07:56 PM
If that's the case then I would have to say either Shuhei Hisagi's or Gin Ichimaru's. I know there have been murmurs about Senbonzakura being a good one too. But idk it just doesnt feel right calling it a non kido based weapon.

Lunatic Scream
October 17, 2009, 08:27 PM
I think it probably has to be Gin's. Shinso has been shown to be not only fast, it has a huge range, and the strength it carries with its extension is pretty formidable. And that's only in its Shikai!

Granted, Renji, Ikkaku and Hisagi don't have near the mastery Gin does with his zanpakuto, so their zanpakuto might just seem weaker due to that.

Couldn't Katen Kyokotsu be considered a strong melee type? At least in the Irooni game. The correct color hit multiplies the physical damage of the sword by quite a bit. Though Busho Koma probably would disqualify it from that field, huh.

Tsukisama
October 17, 2009, 08:54 PM
Couldn't Katen Kyokotsu be considered a strong melee type? At least in the Irooni game. The correct color hit multiplies the physical damage of the sword by quite a bit. Though Busho Koma probably would disqualify it from that field, huh.

No (not by first definition and not really even by the second one). Katen Kyoukotsu is clearly a kidou-type zanpakutou. It isn't just a weapon. The games (with the exception of Bushou Koma, whose rules don't require reality alteration) alter reality, forcing the players to conform to the rules of the game. That creates an area of effect type of magic.

Lunatic Scream
October 17, 2009, 09:07 PM
No (not by first definition and not really even by the second one). Katen Kyoukotsu is clearly a kidou-type zanpakutou. It isn't just a weapon. The games (with the exception of Bushou Koma, whose rules don't require reality alteration) alter reality, forcing the players to conform to the rules of the game. That creates an area of effect type of magic.

Oh, my mistake. Then, just for convenience sake, is this list correct for the most part?
http://bleach.wikia.com/wiki/Zanpakut%C5%8D

Tsukisama
October 17, 2009, 10:23 PM
Oh, my mistake. Then, just for convenience sake, is this list correct for the most part?
http://bleach.wikia.com/wiki/Zanpakut%C5%8D

Well, it depends on how one defines things. Like has been mentioned before, there is no set definition of kidou-type or melee-type. I haven't even seen anywhere in the manga or databook mention of a "projectile-type" or "defense-type."

This is an example of how Bleach Wiki can be quite inaccurate and biased, as these are just fan opinions. This list is just generated by some person; it has little to no factual basis. It even lists under the elements Maki Ichinose, an anime filler character, as being an example of a "light-type" when no such thing as a "light-type" has been established in the manga. "Poison-type?" :eyeroll

Look at the sources this page is using. It is just listing anime episodes and manga chapters where these things appeared, but if you go to those actual episodes and chapters, for many of the references you will just see an example of the zanpakutou being used and not being defined in the manner they are describing. This is largely just a bunch of inferences by some random users based on observations.

So, yeah, I would not put almost no faith in that list at all. Of the melee-type zanpakutou listed there, all except Ichigo, Renji, and Kenpachi would qualify as melee-type under the first definition I listed in the previous post. Under the second definition, you could make arguments for the other three also, but I again would be hesitant to list Kenpachi's zanpakutou as a melee-type based on what little we know about it so far.

Jamil2009
October 18, 2009, 12:18 AM
I've altered the title to refer to melee-type zanpakutou, which hopefully will clear up some confusion, but ultimately I don't see going much of anywhere until some sort of consensus is reached on a definition of melee-type vs. kidou-type. (Concerning elemental-types, I still see them as a subset of the kidou-type that just manipulates the kidou into a particular elemental effect.)

I have seen two thoughts behind the definition employed by some in this thread. I'll summarize the two:

Definition 1: Melee-type in the purest sense

A melee-type zanpakutou is defined by not relying on kidou to produce an external magical effect. This would include any sort of energy-based attack. This would not include physical manipulation of the zanpakutou, such as the zanpakutou changing shape or moving about independently of the wielder (telekinetically controlled).
A kidou-type zanpakutou is defined by a zanpakutou that uses kidou in some fashion to produce an external magical effect. This could range from replicating some natural effect to simple energy manipulation.


Definition 2: Melee-type defined by how it is used by wielder

A melee-type zanpakutou is defined by how the user uses it regardless of whether or not it can produce kidou-based attacks. If the zanpakutou is primarily focused on physical abilities with the kidou-based attack(s) not being a necessary component to adequately using the zanpakutou in released form, then it would qualify.
A kidou-type zanpakutou is defined by a zanpakutou that possess a kidou-based ability that is essential to the usage of the zanpakutou in its released form.


Of the two defintions, the one I employ when thinking about melee-type zanpakutou (and the one I suggest using in this thread) is the first definition. The second definition is far too subjective to be used in a discussion.

An example would be classifying Zangetsu. By the first definition, it is clearly a kidou-type zanpakutou through its energy attack, Getsuga Tenshou. By the second definition, it comes down to a matter of opinion. Zangetsu can be used fairly effectively in a fight without relying on Getsuga Tenshou in some people's opinions, but one could also argue that the kidou-based attack is an integral part of combat using Zangetsu.

So, I will let the discussion continue for a while longer to decide how to view melee-type zanpakutou and then that decision will be edited into the first post for clarification. Also, I'm thinking of removing the poll, as it is rather biased, focusing on those three characters. (I agree with whomever said Kenpachi probably shouldn't be considered a melee-type zanpakutou, as its true nature is still ambiguous to the reader and perhaps to Kenpachi himself.)

Another great post. Thank you for the help and clarification. And yes, I agree with the first definition as well because frankly Zangetsu does rely on GT to be effective in battle (as might soon be seen in the next anime arc).

About Zaraki though, maybe I am wrong about this but isn't his katana a bonafide Zan? If it isn't there, yes, the polls should be scrapped. But if it is, even though it weakens him in battle that would be the only blade he'll ever get to use as he'd be stuck with. So no matter what he'd have only that to use. And besides that, I think the only reason it weakens Zaraki is that it might be pissed that he has ignored it forever and still forces it to fight (but, like I said, dunno).

Thanks again, Tsukisama.
[hr]

If that's the case then I would have to say either Shuhei Hisagi's or Gin Ichimaru's. I know there have been murmurs about Senbonzakura being a good one too. But idk it just doesnt feel right calling it a non kido based weapon.

I agree that these two wield Melee-Type Zans as far as we know but the reason they were excluded is that we don't know enough about the Zans. Thus, as it were, if any of these two fought with any of the three options they are likely to be floored (though Gin might be tough fight, though).
[hr]

I think it probably has to be Gin's. Shinso has been shown to be not only fast, it has a huge range, and the strength it carries with its extension is pretty formidable. And that's only in its Shikai!

Granted, Renji, Ikkaku and Hisagi don't have near the mastery Gin does with his zanpakuto, so their zanpakuto might just seem weaker due to that.

Couldn't Katen Kyokotsu be considered a strong melee type? At least in the Irooni game. The correct color hit multiplies the physical damage of the sword by quite a bit. Though Busho Koma probably would disqualify it from that field, huh.

As formidable as Shinsou is I am of the opinion that its formidability is born out of Gin's shadiness in battle. The only times he has attained victory were against Ichigo and Hiyori and in both instances there was a very unfair play of fortunes. Ichigo was still a nascent rookie and Hiyori was too preoccupied with trying to chop Aizen into bits to even notice Gin had gotten behind her.

But had we known much more about Shinsou I would definitely have included it in the options.

Tsukisama
October 18, 2009, 12:28 AM
About Zaraki though, maybe I am wrong about this but isn't his katana a bonafide Zan? If it isn't there, yes, the polls should be scrapped. But if it is, even though it weakens him in battle that would be the only blade he'll ever get to use as he'd be stuck with. So no matter what he'd have only that to use. And besides that, I think the only reason it weakens Zaraki is that it might be pissed that he has ignored it forever and still forces it to fight (but, like I said, dunno).

Firstly, I am honored that you appreciate my posts so much. Thank you for that; it is really sweet. :lovebunny

Secondly, the reason I would not label Kenpachi's zanpakutou as a melee-type just yet is that there is still confusion on how much Kenpachi has connected with his zanpakutou. He may be in shikai (some might refute this, but without analyzing that, let's just for argument's sake say that he is), but he doesn't seem to know the name of his zanpakutou. If that is the case, he may not have connected with it enough to learn its true potential.

That being said, it probably is a melee-type given Kenpachi's character and as he is epitome of what the 11th division represents and what we have seen so far of the zanpakutou would qualify it as a melee-type, but I just don't like making definitions like that without more confirmation.

Conversely, I would feel more comfortable naming Shuuhei's zanpakutou as melee-type, because he seems to know his zanpakutou much better than Kenpachi and thus we would be seeing his zanpakutou as it truly should be.

Anyway, if you want to consider Kenpachi's zanpakutou a melee-type, you can, but I still think that the poll is rather limited, as those are not the only melee-type zanpakutou users in the manga.

CBlitz
October 18, 2009, 01:21 AM
honestly Ikkaku's bankai isn't all that great, fully powered it barely matched a weak Arrancar

ganjabuss
October 18, 2009, 02:01 AM
@tsukisama
now that we're taking votes on how to choose melee or non-melee...so far we've seen very few zanpukto with pure melee capabilities...ikkaku,omaeda,hisagi,gin...

byakuya and rangiku should be considered as projectile type rather than melee...


we've seen multiple attacks from from kido-type zanpukto's...rukia has two...we've seen two from yama-ji,four or five or more from hitsugaya, two from urahara, shunsui has shown 2...

now IMO there are zanpuktos primary purpose is melee combat has one energy based attack...like ichigo,renji,komamura...single attacks GT,hikotsu taiho, tengen respectively...

now ichigo, renji, komamura's zanpukto having one kido based technique isn't enough to classify as kido-based...when they have shown top class melee combat is biased and unfair....

now kido based technique's effect should also be taken into account...to cassify..
effect of 'GT'.......... cutting....... comes from melee
effect of 'hikotsu taiho' in bankai.....pulverize, or leaves trail like whole bankai has gone through....comes from melee.....
effect of 'tengen'.....cutting/crushing...melee...

now GT and Tengen are techniques that most zanpukto can do IMO...
kenpachi cut of a building with a swing of his sword with his eye-patch off...ikkaku in bankai cut through edorado's volcanica from quite a distance...ichigo while training with urahara clashed their cutting resolve..that's prior to learning GT....isshin cut off grand fisher in sealed state without touching him...kenpachi took down noitora with two-handed swing...when noitota was still out of range...
those are pure reiatsu force cutting techniques...shouldn't be considered as kido...IMO

hope i made myself clear....i kept kenpachi out of here as we dont know his zanpukto's name or ability...but if we had to choose by what we've seen his would be pure-melee type....

kkck
October 18, 2009, 03:25 AM
honestly Ikkaku's bankai isn't all that great, fully powered it barely matched a weak Arrancar

Ikkaku it at around VC level though, you can't expect him to pull stuff even vaguely comparable to what captains can do. In all fairness, ikkaku's bankai is probably just close to a captains shikai lol. It could go as far as to not even comparing to a captains shikai simply due to the difference in reiatsu. Also, edorad was not a weak arrancar, at least for his rank as a mere numero. Most numero have fallen to simply shikais and this guy easily overpowered shikai ikkaku who is even respected by other VC.

UnknownQuincy
October 18, 2009, 04:04 AM
After reading the manga and seeing that the fight from the anime between Toushiro and Gin is not there, I gotta say Gin has the most powerful combo of user and pure-melee type Zan.

I definately think, after careful consideration, that Byakuya's sword is a cutting non-kido and non-elemental type, but not a melee type. While it's final form is melee, it's hard to argue Senbonzakura as a pure melee type, regardless of the fact that it is a million tiny blades, those blades are not used in melee almost at all.

Also, Kenpachi is not his sword. He could easily become a very different type fighter once he gets to know his sword, depending on what abilities it has. Even a basic Getsuga Tenshou type attack would be insanely powerful for him, on many levels, but that is a Kido type attack.

But yeah, Gin is unmatched so far, and he just made Hiyori ... regret her actions.... sooooooo hard. :o

Edit: http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/377/13/ ; most harsh killing in Bleach yet.

poobert
October 18, 2009, 04:36 AM
now IMO there are zanpuktos primary purpose is melee combat has one energy based attack...like ichigo,renji,komamura...single attacks GT,hikotsu taiho, tengen respectively...

Then there are zanpaktos that are melee type but rely on their energy attack as their main weapon. eg Hinamori. Her zanpakto is like Ichigos but she relies on the energy blast as a main weapon rather than as a supplement to her melee attacks, like Ichigo.



Edit: http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/377/13/ ; most harsh killing in Bleach yet.

Don't get your hopes up. I thought the same thing when Hitsugaya got chopped in half.

ganjabuss
October 18, 2009, 07:45 AM
@poobert
hinamori's zanpukto is not melee type it's kidou-type...a zanpukto that fires fireball can in no account be called melee type...
and how do u compare hinamori to ichigo...?...they dont come even close in terms of fighting style, power, reiatsu...think b4 u post...
ichigo even without GT has shown power that hinamori will never be able to reach...

poobert
October 18, 2009, 08:55 AM
@poobert
hinamori's zanpukto is not melee type it's kidou-type...a zanpukto that fires fireball can in no account be called melee type...
and how do u compare hinamori to ichigo...?...they dont come even close in terms of fighting style, power, reiatsu...

Firstly power and reiatsu have nothing to do with this discussion. Secondly, fighting style is the only difference.

Both Ichigo and hinamori have swords that in shikai fire an energy blast. Both are still swords and both can be used as such. Hinamori's sword doesn't turn in to a cannon like Soi Fon, or disappears like Heniko, it stays as a sword.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/101/12/

Look at her first fight again. She fights using the sword and supplements her attack with the energy blast. In subsequent battles in this manga you can see that she is in to kido and relies heavily on her zanpaktos energy blast.

Ichigo is exactly the same, only he relies more on hand to hand combat and less on getsuga.

It is their style of fighting that determines the apparent difference in zanpakto styles, otherwise their zanpaktos are pretty much the same.

The fact that Ichigo is stronger has nothing to do with it. It is about zanpakto ability and how that ability is used. This discussion would otherwise just descend in to who is the strongest melee captain, because surely their power is way more than ikakku or any other vc.

ganjabuss
October 18, 2009, 10:59 AM
@poobert
dude, how u use the zanpukto decides what type it is...primary means of battle decides that...just becoz two zanpukto can fire energy blast type...doesn't mean they are of same type...
by ur opinion hinamori uses fireballs as primary weapon...that makes her kidou type...

ichigo's primary choice has been close combat from the beginning...GT came as secondary...that makes him melee type...

ichigo being stronger has everything to do with it..... hinamori has yet to master her zanpukto fully...no bankai yet...her zanpukto could have other abilities as well...just firing energy blasts doesn't put them is same category...u have to take their effect into account as well....hinamori can make/spread fire...she would probably be able to manipulate fireballs number and direction as well...all GT will ever do is cut as per swing of the sword...u can make it stronger or bigger but only thing it does is cut... that makes it melee IMO.

poobert
October 18, 2009, 11:39 AM
by ur opinion hinamori uses fireballs as primary weapon...that makes her kidou type...

No, she is kido type already, so she feels more comfortable using the energy ball thing rather than sword fighting. She already has an affinity with kido, so she imposes it on to her zanpakto and her fighting style reflects that. It may be a reason she has yet to get bankai, but that would only be speculation.


ichigo being stronger has everything to do with it..... hinamori has yet to master her zanpukto fully...no bankai yet...her zanpukto could have other abilities as well...just firing energy blasts doesn't put them is same category..u have to take their effect into account as well....hinamori can make/spread fire...she would probably be able to manipulate fireballs number and direction as well

Stop speculating about things we don't know. She has one energy attack in an otherwise melee weapon. It fires a ball in a straight line, same as getsuga (just not a ball). Her shikai is the same as ichigos shikai, except for minor cosmetic differences and the lack of raw power that Ichigo has.

I agree that their effect must be taken in to account, but all we know of her effect is that she fires a fireball. We don't know any more.

Her bankai could be entirely kido, and based on her personality, it very well might be, but until we see it it would be ludicrous not to put hers and ichigos shikai in to the same category. Everything we have seen of them implies they are the same:

A melee sword with a single kido based projectile ability.

*edit*

by the way, what I meant when I said their fighting style affects their apparent zanpakto type is that if you have a sword that can be used as a sword, or a kido weapon and you rely more on the kido aspect, then it seems like the sword is more geared towards kido. Ichigo has getsuga, which people are calling a kido based attack, but no one will argue that Ichigo knows the first thing about kido. Hinamori uses the kido attack of her weapon more than the melee aspect, so it seems that it isn't too good on the melee side. But any way you look at it, they are using the same weapon type, albeit in two different ways.

Shola
October 18, 2009, 05:07 PM
I gotta agree with Poobert on this one. I can't see how the manner in which a shinigami prefers to use his/her zanpakuto can govern it's nature Ganj. It's like Yumichika's zan, even though he would like to pass it off as a melee type, it's actual nature is that of a hax kido type. lol. So even though the way trash ass hinamori uses her zan is the antithesis of the way ichigo uses his, they're sorta the same type in regards to how poobert was explaining them.

Forever_Melody
October 18, 2009, 05:21 PM
Idk how you guys are defining your "melee" or "physical" Zanpakutos :s

Here's my interpretation...

If we stick to dictionary definitions:
Melee: a confused hand-to-hand fight or struggle among several people
Physical: of or pertaining to that which is material

If you apply these definitions to the context of Bleach swords, it means that a "physical" or "melee" Zanpakuto is one which engages in melee combat and purely in melee or physical combat.

There should be no manner of non-material attacks or anything of the sort because then you step away from the melee and physical realm.

Melee Zanpakutos shouldn't do anything else because in the technical sense, all Zanpakutos are capable of melee and physical attacks. It's the fact that they have other capacities that set them apart in other categories(ex: Hitsugaya can slash with Hyourinmaru, but it's the ice attacks it does that put Hyourinmaru in the Elemental category). If you start deliminating melee where Zanpakutos can do other stuff, then why not just bunch them all into the "melee, but can do other stuff" category.

Therefore, those which cannot do anything else IMO should be classified as "melee". How a Shinigami uses the Zanpakuto should be irrelevant, if the Soul Cutter itself is incapable of anything but a physical strike of some sort using its body, it should be considered melee/physical.

Shola
October 18, 2009, 05:32 PM
Idk how you guys are defining your "melee" or "physical" Zanpakutos :s

Here's my interpretation...

If we stick to dictionary definitions:
Melee: a confused hand-to-hand fight or struggle among several people
Physical: of or pertaining to that which is material

If you apply these definitions to the context of Bleach swords, it means that a "physical" or "melee" Zanpakuto is one which engages in melee combat and purely in melee or physical combat.

There should be no manner of non-material attacks or anything of the sort because then you step away from the melee and physical realm.

Melee Zanpakutos shouldn't do anything else because in the technical sense, all Zanpakutos are capable of melee and physical attacks. It's the fact that they have other capacities that set them apart in other categories(ex: Hitsugaya can slash with Hyourinmaru, but it's the ice attacks it does that put Hyourinmaru in the Elemental category). If you start deliminating melee where Zanpakutos can do other stuff, then why not just bunch them all into the "melee, but can do other stuff" category.

Therefore, those which cannot do anything else IMO should be classified as "melee". How a Shinigami uses the Zanpakuto should be irrelevant, if the Soul Cutter itself is incapable of anything but a physical strike of some sort using its body, it should be considered melee/physical.

Good definition but it's sort of broken given Bleach circumstances, I'll ask you this question in order to illustrate the problem. Who would you consider to have a strong "melee" type zanpakuto? (besides kenpachi)

Forever_Melody
October 18, 2009, 07:31 PM
Good definition but it's sort of broken given Bleach circumstances, I'll ask you this question in order to illustrate the problem. Who would you consider to have a strong "melee" type zanpakuto? (besides kenpachi)

That depends on your definition of "strong". In the case of melee Zanpakuto(the definition I use), it's possible to compare them without even mentioning their users because a melee Zanpakuto's efficiency or strength in combat is purely dependent on its shape. Said shape could be advantageous or disadvantageous depending on the circumstances.

For example, Zabimaru's Shikai form reaches farther than Hozukimaru's shikai form, which in turn could be an advantage.

If you want my vote, I already gave it earlier: Senbonzakura. By my definition, Senbonzakura is melee/physical because it possesses no power other than to split itself into smaller pieces(i.e. change its shape). The attacks it delivers are still physical blows utilizing the body of the Zanpakuto(i.e. the smaller individual blades). My reason for picking Senbonzakura is because its shape is the most flexible amongst all melee Zanpakuto(and amongst all Zanpakuto period lol :p). Therefore, it can adapt to lots of situations.

Shola
October 18, 2009, 07:36 PM
That depends on your definition of "strong". In the case of melee Zanpakuto(the definition I use), it's possible to compare them without even mentioning their users because a melee Zanpakuto's efficiency or strength in combat is purely dependent on its shape. Said shape could be advantageous or disadvantageous depending on the circumstances.

For example, Zabimaru's Shikai form reaches farther than Hozukimaru's shikai form, which in turn could be an advantage.

If you want my vote, I already gave it earlier: Senbonzakura. By my definition, Senbonzakura is melee/physical because it possesses no power other than to split itself into smaller pieces(i.e. change its shape). The attacks it delivers are still physical blows utilizing the body of the Zanpakuto(i.e. the smaller individual blades). My reason for picking Senbonzakura is because its shape is the most flexible amongst all melee Zanpakuto(and amongst all Zanpakuto period lol :p). Therefore, it can adapt to lots of situations.

Hmm interesting. I get what you're saying but one could argue using your definition that senbonzakura's trait of multiplicity would exempt it from the non kido utilizing group.

Tsukisama
October 18, 2009, 09:42 PM
byakuya and rangiku should be considered as projectile type rather than melee...


Okay, I want to point out that there is no such thing as a "projectile-type." This isn't something from the manga, databook, or Kubo. The "projectile-type" is something from Bleach Wiki.

Trying to theorize on how best to define a term mentioned in the manga is one thing, but creating terms out of thin air is a totally different thing. The only thing that the manga has mentioned in this regard is melee-type and kidou-type. So, we should stick to claissfications given to us by Kubo.

Forever_Melody
October 18, 2009, 10:41 PM
Hmm interesting. I get what you're saying but one could argue using your definition that senbonzakura's trait of multiplicity would exempt it from the non kido utilizing group.
The only level of multiplicity involved in Senbonzakura's abilities is in the Bankai form.

In Shikai, you'd notice that the volume of the total "cherry blossoms" is equal to the initial volume of Senbonzakura's blade. Hence, all it does is separate really. There is no multiplying of Senbonzakura's actual volume or physical state of being; it is merely dissolving into smaller pieces(which then scatter to cover a larger area). So really, it changes shape and even less os than other Zanpakutos which gain/lose mass or volume.

In Bankai form you could argue that it multiplies because Byakuya drops Senbonzakura and it "multiplies" into many large blades that each separate into the cherry blossoms. Once again though, the volume of the combined cherry blossoms should equal that of all the blades.

@Tsuki: are you even sure melee is a type mentione din the manga? I only recall Yumichika mentioning his Zanpakuto is of Kidou-class and that it's looked down upon by the 11th squad because they treat their Soul Cutters as pure weapons, but I don't recall mention of a genuine melee Zanpakuto class.

Shola
October 18, 2009, 10:48 PM
The only level of multiplicity involved in Senbonzakura's abilities is in the Bankai form.

In Shikai, you'd notice that the volume of the total "cherry blossoms" is equal to the initial volume of Senbonzakura's blade. Hence, all it does is separate really. There is no multiplying of Senbonzakura's actual volume or physical state of being; it is merely dissolving into smaller pieces(which then scatter to cover a larger area). So really, it changes shape and even less os than other Zanpakutos which gain/lose mass or volume.

In Bankai form you could argue that it multiplies because Byakuya drops Senbonzakura and it "multiplies" into many large blades that each separate into the cherry blossoms. Once again though, the volume of the combined cherry blossoms should equal that of all the blades.

@Tsuki: are you even sure melee is a type mentione din the manga? I only recall Yumichika mentioning his Zanpakuto is of Kidou-class and that it's looked down upon by the 11th squad because they treat their Soul Cutters as pure weapons, but I don't recall mention of a genuine melee Zanpakuto class.

We're grouping the zanpakuto's into categories based on their overall function, i.e. if its a "melee" type in shikai and in bankai has kido type qualities it is therefore disqualified from being considered a "melee" type as bankai is a function of the zanpakauto as a whole.

Forever_Melody
October 18, 2009, 10:51 PM
We're grouping the zanpakuto's into categories based on their overall function, i.e. if its a "melee" type in shikai and in bankai has kido type qualities it is therefore disqualified from being considered a "melee" type as bankai is a function of the zanpakauto as a whole.

But once again, that really depends how you define it. Byakuya's Bankai still does alter the shape of the his blade. It just does so at a greater extent.

I mean, all he really does is increase the amount of volume available to use for his "scattering" process. Is that any different form Gin's shikai(which also increases his blade's volume for a piercing effect)? You could argue it's different, but IMO, the rows of blades is a visual effect more than anything to functionality. He could've also just made his blade really really big and had THAT huge thing scatter too and it wouldn't change anything to his Bankai's functionality.

kkck
October 18, 2009, 11:12 PM
I'd still think senbonsakura is more akin to a kido type than to a melee type. Just the fact that senbonsakura is controlled by a form of telekinesis or whatnot would place it in a different category from a regular melee type zampakuto.

A melee type zampakuto drives its power exclusively from shape. While it is 100% true senbonsakura draws a great deal of its power from this(thousands of invisible blades), it is also true a great deal of its power comes from the foreign control byakuya has over this. The control byakuya has over the petals is by no means melee related.

Tsukisama
October 18, 2009, 11:33 PM
@Tsuki: are you even sure melee is a type mentione din the manga? I only recall Yumichika mentioning his Zanpakuto is of Kidou-class and that it's looked down upon by the 11th squad because they treat their Soul Cutters as pure weapons, but I don't recall mention of a genuine melee Zanpakuto class.

He mentions both here (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/147/09/) and here (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/322/05/). (The term "melee-type" comes from a certain translation; I can't remember what specific translation it is.)

Forever_Melody
October 18, 2009, 11:35 PM
Well that's why definition is important.

You could argue Zabimaru also extends upon Renji's will(I don't recall him pressing an 'extend' button to have it go whip mode) so there is a level of subconscious interaction there too.

I do agree Byakuya's manipulation of Senbonzakura is beyond the traditional definition of "physical", hence why my definition overlooks the user and only looks at the Zanpakuto's pure abilities. If you look at it technically, Senbonzakura can turn into a usable physical blade(think of the Senkei blades or the Shuukei Hakuteiken).

Oh well, this is why this thread is difficult because definitions vary per person.

Jamil2009
October 19, 2009, 05:51 AM
honestly Ikkaku's bankai isn't all that great, fully powered it barely matched a weak Arrancar

To refresh the details of that episode, the Shinigami that had gone to the real world had 80% of their powers sealed. Hitsugaya, Matsumoto, Ikkaku, Yumichika and Abarai. All of them were fighting with only 20% of their true capabilities.

Ikkaku was the first to defeat his opponent (after Rukia, though) out of the aforementioned Shinigami. While Rukia's victory preceded his, she was dealing with a far inferior opponent than Edorad. Ikkaku killed Edorad with only 20% of his true reiatsu. If you remember, after Ikkaku released his Bankai Edorad commented on his reiatsu saying that it was impressive. Ikkaku responded by saying that he had not even started showing off his reiatsu.

After Ikkaku's victory, we see all the others (save Yumichika) still struggling with their opponents. Even Hitsugaya in Bankai was being toyed around with by his opponent! The Shinigami (that were still fighting, Hitsugaya, Matsumoto and Renji) got permission to unseal the remaining 80% percent of their reiatsu and it was only then that they obtained victory.

It was very clear from that episode that Ikkaku is captain-class because if Hitsugaya could not defeat an Arrancar without unsealing his powers then Ikkaku who defeated an Arrancar without unsealing his powers should be on par with captain-class status. (In Hitsugaya's defense though, he still struggles with his immaturity).

Point of this lengthy response is that people should not forget that Ikkaku and Hitsugaya had Bankai released but while Ikkaku defeated his opponent without breaking his seal Hitsugaya could not.
[hr]

Firstly, I am honored that you appreciate my posts so much. Thank you for that; it is really sweet. :lovebunny

Secondly, the reason I would not label Kenpachi's zanpakutou as a melee-type just yet is that there is still confusion on how much Kenpachi has connected with his zanpakutou. He may be in shikai (some might refute this, but without analyzing that, let's just for argument's sake say that he is), but he doesn't seem to know the name of his zanpakutou. If that is the case, he may not have connected with it enough to learn its true potential.

That being said, it probably is a melee-type given Kenpachi's character and as he is epitome of what the 11th division represents and what we have seen so far of the zanpakutou would qualify it as a melee-type, but I just don't like making definitions like that without more confirmation.

Conversely, I would feel more comfortable naming Shuuhei's zanpakutou as melee-type, because he seems to know his zanpakutou much better than Kenpachi and thus we would be seeing his zanpakutou as it truly should be.

Anyway, if you want to consider Kenpachi's zanpakutou a melee-type, you can, but I still think that the poll is rather limited, as those are not the only melee-type zanpakutou users in the manga.

OOOOOk, I get it now. Thus, for all we know his Zan's true ability might be Kidou-Based like the way Yumichika's Zan's true ability is Kidou-Based. Mehn, but that would be a shocker-of-the-century if we later find out that Zaraki's Zan's true ability is soooo Kidou-Based. I can hear Ikkaku laughing his ass off already :D.

See, this is why I appreciate your posts so much. You make things so easy to understand. Please, keep those posts coming ;)!
[hr]

Idk how you guys are defining your "melee" or "physical" Zanpakutos :s

Here's my interpretation...

If we stick to dictionary definitions:
Melee: a confused hand-to-hand fight or struggle among several people
Physical: of or pertaining to that which is material

If you apply these definitions to the context of Bleach swords, it means that a "physical" or "melee" Zanpakuto is one which engages in melee combat and purely in melee or physical combat.

There should be no manner of non-material attacks or anything of the sort because then you step away from the melee and physical realm.

Melee Zanpakutos shouldn't do anything else because in the technical sense, all Zanpakutos are capable of melee and physical attacks. It's the fact that they have other capacities that set them apart in other categories(ex: Hitsugaya can slash with Hyourinmaru, but it's the ice attacks it does that put Hyourinmaru in the Elemental category). If you start deliminating melee where Zanpakutos can do other stuff, then why not just bunch them all into the "melee, but can do other stuff" category.

Therefore, those which cannot do anything else IMO should be classified as "melee". How a Shinigami uses the Zanpakuto should be irrelevant, if the Soul Cutter itself is incapable of anything but a physical strike of some sort using its body, it should be considered melee/physical.

A beautiful post! I could not have defined things better, thank you.
[hr]

Hmm interesting. I get what you're saying but one could argue using your definition that senbonzakura's trait of multiplicity would exempt it from the non kido utilizing group.

I know Melody has already responded but I would like to give my take :p. It is true that Senbonzakura splits into may blades, but if you consider that Kidou-Based then Houzoukimaru's Bankai form would make it a Kidou-Type Zan as well because it goes from one tiny blade to three gigantic choppers :amuse. What do you say?

Forever_Melody
October 19, 2009, 09:40 AM
Well if you wanna be perfectly technical, the back of Ikkaku's Bankai(the 3rd blade) basically floats in thin air(look how it just dangles when Ikkaku jumps here (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/205/09/)). Therefore, when he's just standing, the blade is floating behind him(since it doesn't touch the ground). Soooooo magic kidou ability? :p I'm partly kidding btw.

Anyhow, how about we establish a list of these so-called melee Zanpakuto so everyone can agree on it?

So let's see, we have...
1- Zabimaru(arguable since in Bankai it has a projectile attack)
2- Shinikaze
3- Hozukimaru(arguable because of the floating blade thingy)
4- Senbonzakura(arguable because of the telekinesis Byakuya controls the petals with)
5- Tsunzakigarasu(same mechanics as Senbonzakura)
6- Haineko(same mechanics as Senbonzakura)
7- Gegetsuburi

Okies if I've missed any tell me so we can complete the list. Basically, excluding Senbonzakura would also exclude Tsunzakigarasu and Haineko since they work similarly to Senbonzakura.

Jamil2009
October 19, 2009, 10:41 AM
Well if you wanna be perfectly technical, the back of Ikkaku's Bankai(the 3rd blade) basically floats in thin air(look how it just dangles when Ikkaku jumps here (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/205/09/)). Therefore, when he's just standing, the blade is floating behind him(since it doesn't touch the ground). Soooooo magic kidou ability? :p I'm partly kidding btw.

Anyhow, how about we establish a list of these so-called melee Zanpakuto so everyone can agree on it?

So let's see, we have...
1- Zabimaru(arguable since in Bankai it has a projectile attack)
2- Shinikaze
3- Hozukimaru(arguable because of the floating blade thingy)
4- Senbonzakura(arguable because of the telekinesis Byakuya controls the petals with)
5- Tsunzakigarasu(same mechanics as Senbonzakura)
6- Haineko(same mechanics as Senbonzakura)
7- Gegetsuburi

Okies if I've missed any tell me so we can complete the list. Basically, excluding Senbonzakura would also exclude Tsunzakigarasu and Haineko since they work similarly to Senbonzakura.

Dang girl, you're on a roll :D! True about Houzukimaru. If that's taken as Melee-Based then Senbonzakura is definitely Melee-Based!

The list looks great too. But a few additions and a correction (no offense, though :tem):

1. Kokouju Tengen Myouu
2. Shinsou
3. Kazeshini (though I admit that Shinikaze was tres cute :D)

I still wouldn't add Zabimaru though because of Hikotsu Taihou which is definitely a Kidou-Type blast. It even looks like a cero (jus' sayin'/kiddin'/dunno). I would also like to remind further visitors that many if not all of the listed Zans, though Melee-Based were excluded from the polls because we do not know enough about them.

I also noticed you left out Zaraki's Zan which was truly enlightened. Tsuki recently made clear the uniqueness of that issue.

Thanks for this reply and, by all means, keep on posting!

Gran Maestro
October 19, 2009, 10:59 AM
To refresh the details of that episode, the Shinigami that had gone to the real world had 80% of their powers sealed. Hitsugaya, Matsumoto, Ikkaku, Yumichika and Abarai. All of them were fighting with only 20% of their true capabilities.

Only captains and vice-captains have a seal:

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/210/07/

Forever_Melody
October 19, 2009, 11:22 AM
Dang girl, you're on a roll :D! True about Houzukimaru. If that's taken as Melee-Based then Senbonzakura is definitely Melee-Based!

The list looks great too. But a few additions and a correction (no offense, though :tem):

1. Kokouju Tengen Myouu
2. Shinsou
3. Kazeshini (though I admit that Shinikaze was tres cute :D)

I still wouldn't add Zabimaru though because of Hikotsu Taihou which is definitely a Kidou-Type blast. It even looks like a cero (jus' sayin'/kiddin'/dunno). I would also like to remind further visitors that many if not all of the listed Zans, though Melee-Based were excluded from the polls because we do not know enough about them.

I also noticed you left out Zaraki's Zan which was truly enlightened. Tsuki recently made clear the uniqueness of that issue.

Thanks for this reply and, by all means, keep on posting!

Ah I remember, Shinikaze was an initial translation I read a while back(they corrected it to Kazeshini in the released version lol :p). My mistake sorry lol :XD

Also, Tenken is the name of Komamura's Zanpakuto if you want to include it, Kokujo Tengen Myou'o is the Bankai's name. I'm a bit on the fence for Tenken though since it's not really altering its shape as much as it seems to be a summon type thing(Komamura still holds his blade in both Shikai and Bankai). We can debate on it though lol :p

I also didn't include Kenpachi's Zanpaktuo for the same reason Tsuki said: we're not completely aware of what it does(if anything at all) yet.

Okies to a refined list would be:
- Hozukimaru
- Senbonzakura
- Haineko
- Tsunzakigarasu
- Kazeshini
- Gegetsuburi
- Shinso
- Tenken

Did I miss any? If not, we can start discussing the pros and cons of each Zanpakuto's shape :D

Jamil2009
October 19, 2009, 11:23 AM
Only captains and vice-captains have a seal:

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/210/07/

True and I stand corrected. But, to humour conjecture, I don't think Soul Society is that unassuming to realise Ikkaku is at least VC level that they won't have bothered to put a seal on him as well. But, like I said, it's just conjecture and thank you for the correction.

Forever_Melody
October 19, 2009, 11:41 AM
Well arguably Ikkaku might not have had his Bankai for as long as other captains(he's probably had it longer than Renji but I don't recall mention of it) so its potential may not have fully been developed. Add to the fact that Ikkaku doesn't train or use it a lot(because he doesn't want others to see it) and I'm pretty sure it adds up to him lacking practice with his Bankai.

Anyhow, Ikkaku's Bankai probably has the most brute force of the melee Zanpakutos since it was commented that brute force was all it did. Even Senbonzakura's Bankai didn't manage to fully pierce an arrancar's Hierro while Hozukimaru and Kazeshini were able to cut clean across it(arguably the arrncar Senbonzakura faced was stronger than the other 2).

Jamil2009
October 19, 2009, 12:03 PM
Ah I remember, Shinikaze was an initial translation I read a while back(they corrected it to Kazeshini in the released version lol :p). My mistake sorry lol :XD

Also, Tenken is the name of Komamura's Zanpakuto if you want to include it, Kokujo Tengen Myou'o is the Bankai's name. I'm a bit on the fence for Tenken though since it's not really altering its shape as much as it seems to be a summon type thing(Komamura still holds his blade in both Shikai and Bankai). We can debate on it though lol :p

I also didn't include Kenpachi's Zanpaktuo for the same reason Tsuki said: we're not completely aware of what it does(if anything at all) yet.

Okies to a refined list would be:
- Hozukimaru
- Senbonzakura
- Haineko
- Tsunzakigarasu
- Kazeshini
- Gegetsuburi
- Shinso
- Tenken

Did I miss any? If not, we can start discussing the pros and cons of each Zanpakuto's shape :D

An even better post. You had me chuckling :D. Ok let's get to pro-ing and con-ing these Zans.

1. Houzukimaru. Versatile but limited. In Shikai it is rather vulnerable-looking (looks more like a tooth-pick for Kokujou Tengen Myouu :p). It can transform into a three-piece nunchuck and is backed by Ikkaku's craze for fighting. As a blade by itself though, on a scale of 1 - 10, I'd say a 5 because of it's Shikai's limits which I dare say are compensated by the size of it's Bankai.

2. Senbonzakura. One of my fav Zans in all of Bleach! It deaftly combines style with strength and is extremely versatile, the Zan for everyone as I still think that no matter who wielded it it would still be formidable.

3. Haineko. Senbonzakura's dull sister, if I may say so. Graceful but rather ugly due to it's drab gray look. Also versatile but while Senbonzakura packs a hell of a punch Haineko's punch is rather as dull as her colour not to mention that the hilt still has to be used to coordinate its slashes whereas Senbonzakura cuts at the speed of thought.

4. Tsunzakugarasu. I laughed at the memory of this sham! When I saw the name all I could remember was Ishida putting the seventh-seater (not sure 'bout this though) in his place with only one shot. But I digress. The poor cousin of Senbonzakura and Haineko, this Zan is not as versatile as his more powerful relatives due to its large-sized Shikai blades. Whereas it would be near impossible to escape either Senbonzakura or Haineko's attack, the size of Tsunzakugarasu's blades would make for an easy counter.

5.Kazeshini. A swift slash with an impressive reach. Not versatile and likely difficult to use as I believe it would take a great deal to master it effectively. Even Hisagi knows its movements are hard to predict. What this Zan might lack in stregth it makes up for in speed and distance. Still a formidable blade as it can channel Kidou through it's extendable chain. And, yes, those blades look like they were made for reapin' life itself (Findor would know :p).

6. Getgetsuburi. As lumpy as its owner, this rounded cudgel is the right weapon for a pounding blow. It is extremely specialised and also difficult to use and it has better use in defending than in attack because of its relatively slow pace when being swung. Almost anyone could dodge a head-on attack.

7. Shinsou. Able to transform from a 'knife' (courtesy Ichigo) to a formidable length, this Zan is perfect for reach and it literally sweeps lesser opponents off into oblivion with a single swipe. Though its strength might come off as impressive it fails to be versatile as a strong mastery of the weapon would be incumbent on the wielder.

8. Tenken. Controversial in its true attributes, this is the biggest thing since King Kong (apologies to Yami, Po, et al :p). It completely abandons defense and gives it all to smashin', crashin' and pummelin' any who dare to contest its might. However, its size is dwarfed by its versatility as this blade can hardly be handled by any but a thorough beast strong and wild enough to tame its heavenly punishment.

Wowh! That was long :D. Ok, how do you like my analysis? I know it's faulty in places so PLEASE let me know what you think.

Shola
October 19, 2009, 12:27 PM
@jamil
I dont really think ikkaku's bankai can be compared to byakuya's as ikkaku's bankai is just a reflection of houzikimaru's 3 segment state, it's just upgraded, it's not really multiplicity in the same sense as byakuya's, feel me?

Jamil2009
October 19, 2009, 12:58 PM
@jamil
I dont really think ikkaku's bankai can be compared to byakuya's as ikkaku's bankai is just a reflection of houzikimaru's 3 segment state, it's just upgraded, it's not really multiplicity in the same sense as byakuya's, feel me?

Yeah, I feel u G. And you seem to be right; it does seem that Ryuumun Houzukimaru emphasises on the three-piece nunchuck it's Shikai form can transform into. But the blades still change shape a whole lot, from three teenee chop-sticks to three whopper chop-blades just like Senbonzakura transforms from one slender blade to thousands of shredder-blossoms. And like Melody said, Ikkaku's third blade is suspended and not held. Veeeery magic-like, if you ask me :D.

But really Senbonzakura is Melee-Type. I can't seen any other way to classify it.

poobert
October 19, 2009, 05:03 PM
(he's probably had it longer than Renji but I don't recall mention of it) so its potential may not have fully been developed.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/206/19/

It seems he's had his bankai at least since he taught Renji how to fight, so way way before Renji got his bankai.

The only time we have seen Ikkaku use his banki, he sliced through that arrancar easily before collapsing. But he was completely battered just before he used it, so it seems that his bankai easily trumped that arrancar, whichever it was.

Then again, Iba said his bankai sucks compared to Komamaru's tekken (which was a bit rich coming from a guy who doesn't even have one).

That said, what is Iba's zanpakto? If I remember right, it looks like a pirate sword.

Forever_Melody
October 19, 2009, 10:25 PM
@Jamil: Very nice analysis! :D I'll try my best to come up with something too >.>

1. Hozukimaru:While it doesn't seem like much in Shikai mode, it does indeed extend Ikkaku's range(hence its release command "extend" lol :p) Another thing to note is that its shape isn't static as Ikkaku can separate the weapon into 3 segmented pieces. In the hands of an experienced melee combatant like Ikkaku, Hozukimaru's Shikai provides quite an unpredictable and fearsome weapon!
In Bankai mode, Hozukimaru gains an extreme boost in power. So far, except Kazeshini, it's the only Zanpakuto which cut clean through an arrancar's Hierro to that degree(other Zanpakutos were able to cut through it, but Hozukimaru literally sliced through the thing like butter). Also note that Hozukimaru's actual "true power" hasn't really been seen(seeing as the one time its used, we don't really see anything). I mean, if such cutting power is Hozukimaru when it's "asleep", imagine when it's awake! :blink

2. Senbonzakura: Well there isn't much to say that isn't too obvious. Senbonzakura pretty much sums up "strength in numbers" lol :p While each individual blade may not be that bad by itself, combine thousands(and millions in Bankai mode) together and its sheer power is multiplied tenfold. One of Senbonzakura's greatest assets is its ability to change its shape at will. This is best displayed in Bankai mode; it can stay in petal form as well as group together in liquid like form to mold to any situation. It can also form sword-like shapes to trap or slice. Senbonzakura's second greatest asset is while it is in Shikai form. As stated by Renji, Senbonzakura's Shikai form is actually invisible(since the baldes are so tiny and not numerous enough like in Bankai to be visible) and is only seen when it dissolves(where light reflects on the blades so they seem like petals). This fact isn't too exploited as Senbonzakura's Shikai isn't heavily used, but this is in fact a great asset to it. Unlike other Zanpakutos of the same nature(or even other Zanpakutos), evading an attack which is invisible is quite difficult.

3. Haineko: Similar to Senbonzakura yet different at the same time. It isn't invisible to the eye and it doesn't separate into blades, but into pure ash. The as particles can then blend together to form solid objects such as blades or shields to attack or defend. Its greatest asset is the same as Senbonzakura's since it can vary its shape and its range isn't limited by its physical size. The one thing Haineko lacks compared to Senbonzakura is the fact that the ash in itself isn't dangerous but has to be manipulated by Matsumoto to become a weapon(otherwise it's just regular ash floating around). This may prove to be an advantage later one however(as perhaps it can be used as something other than a weapon in the future) The other weakness is that Matsumoto has to make a physical movement in order to mold Haineko unlike Byakuya which can do it mentally. Perhaps with greater mastery she'll be able to achieve a similar feat :tem.

4. Tsunzakigarasu: Well there isn't much to say since it was mostly a fodder Zanpakuto(:XD), but once can mention that it's a more clumsy version of Sebonzakura and Haineko. In pure shape, it looks like Senbonzakura(i.e. it separates into already made weapons) although it is far more limited since the amount of "weapons" it dissolves into are already limited and easily visible. So its shape isn't as freelance as either of the former Soul Cutters, but it possesses one asset that they have i.e. flexible range/angles of attack.

5. Kazeshini: A unique Zanpakuto mostly in the way it is used as Hisagi actually throws his weapon for increased amounts of damage. Due to the constant battering of the sharp scythe upon its target(due to the spinning motion of the weapon), it can actually slice through arrancar Hierro by repeated puncture which compares in brute force to Hozukimaru's Bankai. Another advantage is that Kazeshini's shape combined with Hisagi's use of it makes for a very unpredictable and erratic fighting style. The chain is an advantage as it can be used in a given motion as well as channel Kidou. What really makes Kazeshini unique though IMO is the spinning motion gained by throwing it which yhrough the repeated impact of the sharp end of the scythe can produce deadly "slashes" comparable to pure brute force Zanpakutos.

6. Gegetsuburi: Hmm not too much to say about it, but let's see. Its size ones make for cumbersome attacks however by simple physics it gives its momentum and impact a greater power. Also, since it's tied to a chain, its range is greater than that of some other Zanpakuto.

7. Shinso: Shinso's power to extend its blade makes for a very deadly increase in range which so far hasn't even proven to have a set limit. This potentially makes Shinso the Zanpakuto with the most range. Also, the sudden increase in size is good for surprise attacks when engaged in close combat as well. However, piercing seems to be the main focus of the weapon as a slash in "extended" form would only really be successful if used by total surprise as the sheer size of an extended blade would be cumbersome to use in the quicker motions of close combat.

8. Tenken: I am currently at the fence for Tenken's status as a melee Zanpakuto since it doesn't really alter its shape so much as it summons something(a limb or a giant) in conjecture with Komamura's will. However, in Shikai form, this gives Komamura an unknown increase in range as it can strike farther than he normally could(the exact range is as of yet unknown) and provides a crushing power that is perhaps one of the more impressive ones of the Shikai world. It is currently unknown if Tenken's Shikai can be used in a defensive manner however.
In Bankai form it basically allows Komamaru to fight on the level of titanic opponents. The increase in power is indeed astonishing and the limits of durability and strength of the Bankai have not fully been explored. One thing's for sure: if you need to fight a big guy, Tenken is the Soul Cutter you'd want to favor in this class :D

Anyhow, that's my short(although not so short) analysis on the blades in my list :D Hope you enjoy ^_^



@Shola: I'm not quite sure what you mean. Just as Ikkaku's Bankai reflects a greater degree of the 3 segments(as i making them bigger and badder weapons, but still pieces of a whole) so does Byakuya's reflect a greater degree of the petals(by increasing the amount of petal available to him).

If you're talking about the telekinesis, I already pointed out that Ikkaku's Bankai technically also floats in midair so there is some form of telekinetic thing(or at least some form of non-physical element) as there isn't anything that points to it being attached to Ikkaku's back(seeinga s hes not wearing a shirt in the only scene he uses Bankai).



@poobert: My point still stands since I doubt Ikkaku trained his Bankai that much for fear of being discovered, but I may be wrong on this one. Still, as you pointed out, its limit hasn't been fully explored yet. Iba's comment merely distinguished the difference in between Hozukimaru and Tenken's respective Bankais in conjuction with fighting Po IMO.

Btw, I recall Iba's Zanpakuto(link (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/160/05/)), but I'm not exactly sure what it does yet. he was once in the 11th Division so chances are his Zanpakuto might be of the melee class.

ganjabuss
October 20, 2009, 12:05 AM
Okay, I want to point out that there is no such thing as a "projectile-type." This isn't something from the manga, databook, or Kubo. The "projectile-type" is something from Bleach Wiki.

Trying to theorize on how best to define a term mentioned in the manga is one thing, but creating terms out of thin air is a totally different thing. The only thing that the manga has mentioned in this regard is melee-type and kidou-type. So, we should stick to claissfications given to us by Kubo.

very well if not projectile type...u name the type...blade scatter in tiny pieces controlled by the hilt...in no account should this ability be considered melee...considering this melee is retarded...melee means hand to hand... senbonzakura and haineko's ability is ranged no matter how u cut it...

kkck
October 20, 2009, 12:13 AM
very well if not projectile type...u name the type...blade scatter in tiny pieces controlled by the hilt...in no account should this ability be considered melee...considering this melee is retarded...melee means hand to hand... senbonzakura and haineko's ability is ranged no matter how u cut it...
Well, the zampakuto seems to be more ability based than on melee combat so I still think it is way closer to a kido type than a melee. Granted there is no flashy explosion or light though....

Jamil2009
October 20, 2009, 05:04 AM
@Jamil: Very nice analysis! :D I'll try my best to come up with something too >.>

1. Hozukimaru:While it doesn't seem like much in Shikai mode, it does indeed extend Ikkaku's range(hence its release command "extend" lol :p) Another thing to note is that its shape isn't static as Ikkaku can separate the weapon into 3 segmented pieces. In the hands of an experienced melee combatant like Ikkaku, Hozukimaru's Shikai provides quite an unpredictable and fearsome weapon!
In Bankai mode, Hozukimaru gains an extreme boost in power. So far, except Kazeshini, it's the only Zanpakuto which cut clean through an arrancar's Hierro to that degree(other Zanpakutos were able to cut through it, but Hozukimaru literally sliced through the thing like butter). Also note that Hozukimaru's actual "true power" hasn't really been seen(seeing as the one time its used, we don't really see anything). I mean, if such cutting power is Hozukimaru when it's "asleep", imagine when it's awake! :blink

2. Senbonzakura: Well there isn't much to say that isn't too obvious. Senbonzakura pretty much sums up "strength in numbers" lol :p While each individual blade may not be that bad by itself, combine thousands(and millions in Bankai mode) together and its sheer power is multiplied tenfold. One of Senbonzakura's greatest assets is its ability to change its shape at will. This is best displayed in Bankai mode; it can stay in petal form as well as group together in liquid like form to mold to any situation. It can also form sword-like shapes to trap or slice. Senbonzakura's second greatest asset is while it is in Shikai form. As stated by Renji, Senbonzakura's Shikai form is actually invisible(since the baldes are so tiny and not numerous enough like in Bankai to be visible) and is only seen when it dissolves(where light reflects on the blades so they seem like petals). This fact isn't too exploited as Senbonzakura's Shikai isn't heavily used, but this is in fact a great asset to it. Unlike other Zanpakutos of the same nature(or even other Zanpakutos), evading an attack which is invisible is quite difficult.

3. Haineko: Similar to Senbonzakura yet different at the same time. It isn't invisible to the eye and it doesn't separate into blades, but into pure ash. The as particles can then blend together to form solid objects such as blades or shields to attack or defend. Its greatest asset is the same as Senbonzakura's since it can vary its shape and its range isn't limited by its physical size. The one thing Haineko lacks compared to Senbonzakura is the fact that the ash in itself isn't dangerous but has to be manipulated by Matsumoto to become a weapon(otherwise it's just regular ash floating around). This may prove to be an advantage later one however(as perhaps it can be used as something other than a weapon in the future) The other weakness is that Matsumoto has to make a physical movement in order to mold Haineko unlike Byakuya which can do it mentally. Perhaps with greater mastery she'll be able to achieve a similar feat :tem.

4. Tsunzakigarasu: Well there isn't much to say since it was mostly a fodder Zanpakuto(:XD), but once can mention that it's a more clumsy version of Sebonzakura and Haineko. In pure shape, it looks like Senbonzakura(i.e. it separates into already made weapons) although it is far more limited since the amount of "weapons" it dissolves into are already limited and easily visible. So its shape isn't as freelance as either of the former Soul Cutters, but it possesses one asset that they have i.e. flexible range/angles of attack.

5. Kazeshini: A unique Zanpakuto mostly in the way it is used as Hisagi actually throws his weapon for increased amounts of damage. Due to the constant battering of the sharp scythe upon its target(due to the spinning motion of the weapon), it can actually slice through arrancar Hierro by repeated puncture which compares in brute force to Hozukimaru's Bankai. Another advantage is that Kazeshini's shape combined with Hisagi's use of it makes for a very unpredictable and erratic fighting style. The chain is an advantage as it can be used in a given motion as well as channel Kidou. What really makes Kazeshini unique though IMO is the spinning motion gained by throwing it which yhrough the repeated impact of the sharp end of the scythe can produce deadly "slashes" comparable to pure brute force Zanpakutos.

6. Gegetsuburi: Hmm not too much to say about it, but let's see. Its size ones make for cumbersome attacks however by simple physics it gives its momentum and impact a greater power. Also, since it's tied to a chain, its range is greater than that of some other Zanpakuto.

7. Shinso: Shinso's power to extend its blade makes for a very deadly increase in range which so far hasn't even proven to have a set limit. This potentially makes Shinso the Zanpakuto with the most range. Also, the sudden increase in size is good for surprise attacks when engaged in close combat as well. However, piercing seems to be the main focus of the weapon as a slash in "extended" form would only really be successful if used by total surprise as the sheer size of an extended blade would be cumbersome to use in the quicker motions of close combat.

8. Tenken: I am currently at the fence for Tenken's status as a melee Zanpakuto since it doesn't really alter its shape so much as it summons something(a limb or a giant) in conjecture with Komamura's will. However, in Shikai form, this gives Komamura an unknown increase in range as it can strike farther than he normally could(the exact range is as of yet unknown) and provides a crushing power that is perhaps one of the more impressive ones of the Shikai world. It is currently unknown if Tenken's Shikai can be used in a defensive manner however.
In Bankai form it basically allows Komamaru to fight on the level of titanic opponents. The increase in power is indeed astonishing and the limits of durability and strength of the Bankai have not fully been explored. One thing's for sure: if you need to fight a big guy, Tenken is the Soul Cutter you'd want to favor in this class :D

Anyhow, that's my short(although not so short) analysis on the blades in my list :D Hope you enjoy ^_^

"Applause and a standing ovation!" This was a HOT post :D. I got a high reading the stuff. Great GREAT analysis. I can't think of anything to correct or point out. A flawless endeavour IMHO. Arigato gozhaimas!!! (More applause, crowds screaming "More, more" :D:D...)
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Well, the zampakuto seems to be more ability based than on melee combat so I still think it is way closer to a kido type than a melee. Granted there is no flashy explosion or light though....

The way I see it is thus;

As long as a blade can have no added effect (especially on its opponent) but sheer force of strength, it is rightly a Melee-Type Zan. It's like a javeline; it a weapon that has to be thrown to have maximum effect. But should it be classified as non Melee-Type because it has to thrown?

Senbonzakura still fights a blade to blade combat (which is physical) and to be most effective Byakuya uses his hands to control it. It just cannot be Kidou-Based or any other except Melee-Based as its battles are still fought, more than less, hand to hand.

kkck
October 20, 2009, 09:22 AM
As long as a blade can have no added effect (especially on its opponent) but sheer force of strength, it is rightly a Melee-Type Zan. It's like a javeline; it a weapon that has to be thrown to have maximum effect. But should it be classified as non Melee-Type because it has to thrown?

Senbonzakura still fights a blade to blade combat (which is physical) and to be most effective Byakuya uses his hands to control it. It just cannot be Kidou-Based or any other except Melee-Based as its battles are still fought, more than less, hand to hand.

Senbonsakura is by no means thrown though(dunno how you can even associate a thrown weapon with senbonsakura lol). What does on is inherently different from that. The way I see it, the damage dealt by it is physical and akin to that of a melee zampakuto but the mechanisms behind how it works are definitely kido. Without kido based powers behind it the remote control which makes the sword what it is would not be there. The damage dealt is physical but the way the petals move is clearly related to kido.

Forever_Melody
October 20, 2009, 10:32 AM
Well it all comes down to definition once again.

As I've pointed out in previous posts, other so-called "melee" Zanpakutos have an element of telekinesis to them so one could in the most extreme case assume they could accomplish something like Senbonzakura. Of course, this is all in the most extreme scenario, but the possibility is there because the fact that some sort of "magical" non-physical ability is present.

Also, removing the Kidou abilities behind Senbonzakura does not strip it of its powers; it merely changes how it is used. If removing Kidou completely altered said Zanpakuto's abilities, then it would definitely be Kidou. If you removed the "floating" from Senbonzakura, at the worst, it could still be a hand to hand weapon that can alter its shape(we've seen it go from sword, to petal, to winged sword etc. so the chances that it could do other shapes are very probable). Senbonzakura still cuts as it was meant to, but it does so in a different manner. Remove the ice from Hyourinmaru and its purpose/ability is completely altered. So really, the line for Senbonzakura isn't as clear as for other Zanpakutos. I used my definition because it's simple, but if you change it, Senbonzakura might fall somewhere else.

But I digress, it still comes down to definition.

kkck
October 20, 2009, 10:41 AM
Also, removing the Kidou abilities behind Senbonzakura does not strip it of its powers; it merely changes how it is used. If removing Kidou completely altered said Zanpakuto's abilities, then it would definitely be Kidou. If you removed the "floating" from Senbonzakura, at the worst, it could still be a hand to hand weapon that can alter its shape(we've seen it go from sword, to petal, to winged sword etc. so the chances that it could do other shapes are very probable). Senbonzakura still cuts as it was meant to, but it does so in a different manner. Remove the ice from Hyourinmaru and its purpose/ability is completely altered. So really, the line for Senbonzakura isn't as clear as for other Zanpakutos. I used my definition because it's simple, but if you change it, Senbonzakura might fall somewhere else.

I did not really get this part. I mean, without the kido that moves the petals, wouldn't senbonsakura just be a bunch of unusable invisible blades? Without moving the blades would not even be able to refract light and look like petals. Byakuya would not even be able to throw the little blades at the enemy lol. Don't get me wrong, the sword itself would work as well as always but without the kido behind it's working its shikai and bankai would be useless.

Jamil2009
October 20, 2009, 10:53 AM
Senbonsakura is by no means thrown though(dunno how you can even associate a thrown weapon with senbonsakura lol). What does on is inherently different from that. The way I see it, the damage dealt by it is physical and akin to that of a melee zampakuto but the mechanisms behind how it works are definitely kido. Without kido based powers behind it the remote control which makes the sword what it is would not be there. The damage dealt is physical but the way the petals move is clearly related to kido.

Let me see if I can appropriately respond to this;

About the 'throwing' issue. I have read in a number of replies that Senbonzakura, Haineko, et al should be classified under Projectile-Type Zans. That implies that in some way they are thrown or launched just like a javeline is thrown or launched. So I tried responding from their point of view. But even I know that is somewhat untenable and I appreciate your pointing it out to me. Thank you.

About controlling Senbonzakura's petals. I am yet to witness a Kidou spell of any sort that levitates or coordinates the movement of any entity. Thus, as we are not yet privy to such it would be rather unfounded to assume that being able to control one's blade without physical contact with the blade constitutes a Kidou-Based ability. And just as Melody has stated and reiterated, if Senbozakura's floating petals are a manifestation of some Kidou ability then Houzukimaru's floating blade (the one with the dragon crest that floats behind Ikkaku before he takes hold of it) is also a manifestation of Kidou.
[hr]

I did not really get this part. I mean, without the kido that moves the petals, wouldn't senbonsakura just be a bunch of unusable invisible blades? Without moving the blades would not even be able to refract light and look like petals. Byakuya would not even be able to throw the little blades at the enemy lol. Don't get me wrong, the sword itself would work as well as always but without the kido behind it's working its shikai and bankai would be useless.

In Bankai form Senbonzakura becomes capable of morphing into Senkei. This form is completely and irrefutably Melee. No floating petals and the swords suspended in mid-air do nothing until they are in Byakuya's hand. Even the last stage of Bankai, Hakureiken, is pure Melee. It looks fancy with wings and all but still needs to be manually manipulated by Byakuya.

Forever_Melody
October 20, 2009, 11:10 AM
I did not really get this part. I mean, without the kido that moves the petals, wouldn't senbonsakura just be a bunch of unusable invisible blades? Without moving the blades would not even be able to refract light and look like petals. Byakuya would not even be able to throw the little blades at the enemy lol. Don't get me wrong, the sword itself would work as well as always but without the kido behind it's working its shikai and bankai would be useless.

As Jamil said, it's possible to wield Senbonzakura' Bankai without having to mentally control the petals. Removing this aspect does not change its ability, which is to separate and cut. Removing what you call to be a Kidou ability from Senbonzakura merely changes how it can be used, but the ability remains untouched.

Shuukei Hakuten and the blades of Senkei are perfect examples of this. Also, Byakuya can probably morph these "weapons" into even more different shapes so at the worst, if you remove the ability to control them, it can become a weapon(like Shuukei Hakuten or Senkei swords) which can alter its shape due to the fact that it isn't one piece.

Of course, this is far less effective than when you add in the telekinesis, but my point is that removing this aspect doesn't remove Senbonzakura's ability. Even if you just made the blades fly randomly(you don't need telekinesis to just make them float along) it could become a deadly weapon(just a very very unpredictable one lol :p).

kkck
October 20, 2009, 11:13 AM
About controlling Senbonzakura's petals. I am yet to witness a Kidou spell of any sort that levitates or coordinates the movement of any entity. Thus, as we are not yet privy to such it would be rather unfounded to assume that being able to control one's blade without physical contact with the blade constitutes a Kidou-Based ability. And just as Melody has stated and reiterated, if Senbozakura's floating petals are a manifestation of some Kidou ability then Houzukimaru's floating blade (the one with the dragon crest that floats behind Ikkaku before he takes hold of it) is also a manifestation of Kidou.
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In Bankai form Senbonzakura becomes capable of morphing into Senkei. This form is completely and irrefutably Melee. No floating petals and the swords suspended in mid-air do nothing until they are in Byakuya's hand. Even the last stage of Bankai, Hakureiken, is pure Melee. It looks fancy with wings and all but still needs to be manually manipulated by Byakuya.

Well, I am saying the blades move with kido due to a lack of a better word mostly lol(magic would be more accurate but the manga has generalized that as kido...). Obviously we have yet to see byakuya do any form of spell to directly move the blades but they do move and when they do byakuya has no contact with them. As for ikkaku, I guess you have a point but I would think kubo did that for mostly aesthetics reasons.

But would senkei even be possible without the kido related abilities it has as a base? We are talking about a stationary byakuya compressing millions of blades into powerful swords. He can also use the swords around him to attack from a distance. Now, while I do agree 100% in that the applications and damage caused by senbonsakura are mostly melee, none of them would be possible without a form of kido related ability behind them(from flying petals to compressed petals, sword summoning and then even more sword compression).

Forever_Melody
October 20, 2009, 11:20 AM
Aesthetics or not, the fact is that Hozukimaru still does float due to some magical reason yet we're willing to classify that as melee. Kubo could've easily added some form of strap-on element so that the blade is tied to Ikkaku's back(which would then be possible since Ikkaku is strong enough to carry something of that size), but he didn't. At the limit you could even assume that since one blade floats this way that eventually, with some form of mastery, Ikkaku can make other parts of his Bankai float.

Also, Byakuya could simply be controlling the blades of Senbonzakura with reiatsu and reiatsu isn't classified as Kidou last I checked. I mean, we've seen that you can create pressure, enhance your range/strength and do dozens of things with reiatsu alone so why not control, compress or do whatnot to thousands of blades which are already part of your spirit energy?

Jamil2009
October 20, 2009, 11:31 AM
Aesthetics or not, the fact is that Hozukimaru still does float due to some magical reason yet we're willing to classify that as melee. Kubo could've easily added some form of strap-on element so that the blade is tied to Ikkaku's back(which would then be possible since Ikkaku is strong enough to carry something of that size), but he didn't. At the limit you could even assume that since one blade floats this way that eventually, with some form of mastery, Ikkaku can make other parts of his Bankai float.

Also, Byakuya could simply be controlling the blades of Senbonzakura with reiatsu and reiatsu isn't classified as Kidou last I checked. I mean, we've seen that you can create pressure, enhance your range/strength and do dozens of things with reiatsu alone so why not control, compress or do whatnot to thousands of blades which are already part of your spirit energy?

You did it again, Melody. You took the thoughts right out my head and typed them all across the screen with such succinct precision...ok, I shouldn't get over-worked. But great post once more.

I had been trying for a long time to relate reiatsu with Senbonzakura's motions but I just hit a clog each time. Would it be possible? And you just gave me what I needed. Reiatsu is used for a host of other things that are non-Kidou and so why not the telekinetic effect on Senbonzakura's petals. And that might also explain Ikkaku's blade.

kkck
October 20, 2009, 04:22 PM
Aesthetics or not, the fact is that Hozukimaru still does float due to some magical reason yet we're willing to classify that as melee. Kubo could've easily added some form of strap-on element so that the blade is tied to Ikkaku's back(which would then be possible since Ikkaku is strong enough to carry something of that size), but he didn't. At the limit you could even assume that since one blade floats this way that eventually, with some form of mastery, Ikkaku can make other parts of his Bankai float.

Also, Byakuya could simply be controlling the blades of Senbonzakura with reiatsu and reiatsu isn't classified as Kidou last I checked. I mean, we've seen that you can create pressure, enhance your range/strength and do dozens of things with reiatsu alone so why not control, compress or do whatnot to thousands of blades which are already part of your spirit energy?

Well, if byakuya controls the blades in the way you suggest, does that mean he could do it with anything else? Could he get a million pieces of paper and move them around at will or form a paper senkei? I always thought of the movement of senbonsakura's blades as an inherent ability of the zampakuto over which byakuya had control, not something which byakuya had to come up with independently(I might have misinterpreted your post though). If byakuya came up with the way to move his blades with reiatsu alone then you would be right right senbonsakura being pure melee(since it would consist of thousands or billions of blades incapable of moving on their own lol) but if the ability to control the blades comes directly from the sword then I do not see how it cannot be kido based.

Forever_Melody
October 20, 2009, 04:48 PM
Well, if byakuya controls the blades in the way you suggest, does that mean he could do it with anything else? Could he get a million pieces of paper and move them around at will or form a paper senkei? I always thought of the movement of senbonsakura's blades as an inherent ability of the zampakuto over which byakuya had control, not something which byakuya had to come up with independently(I might have misinterpreted your post though). If byakuya came up with the way to move his blades with reiatsu alone then you would be right right senbonsakura being pure melee(since it would consist of thousands or billions of blades incapable of moving on their own lol) but if the ability to control the blades comes directly from the sword then I do not see how it cannot be kido based.

Just a note: I used the term reiatsu(spiritual pressure), when I was in fact speaking of reiryoku(spirit energy)

Anyhow, here's the thing, a Zanpakuto is the physical manifestation of a shinigami's reiryoku. Therefore, I believe any manipulation of a given power of the Zanpakuto is indirectly a manipulation of a person's reiryoku.

For example, for Renji to extend Zabimaru, he would simply needs to manipulate his reiryoku in a way which would make the blade react and extend(as there is no physical button or other method used to really accomplish this). His Bankai is an even better example as it is held together by his reiryoku so he has direct manipulation of that through his spiritual energy.

How about Yamamoto? He can literally spew fire in a given shape. For example, his Jokaku Enjo attack makes a dome around a target. How does he do that if not by manipulation of his Zanpakuto's fire(and by extension of his own reiryoku)?

Same with Hitsugaya: he manipulates reiryoku to produce ice from water through his Hyourinmaru.

So in a sense, I'm asserting that manipulation and use of a Zanpakuto is simply a manipulation and use of reiryoku(through the Zanpakuto) as a Zanpakuto is a physical manifestation of reiryoku.

Of course, the nature of the Zanpakuto delimits what can and cannot be done with the person's reiryoku(ex: Hitsugaya cannot will Hyourinmaru to launch fire as that is not the nature of his own reiryoku).

Also, by the extension of this premise, Byakuya cannot control anything else in the way he controls Senbonzakura since Senbonzakura is a manifestation of his own reiryoku. Just as you can mold your reiryoku into a pressure, he molds his(Senbonzakura) into whatever he likes(as is the power of his Zanpakuto).

So yes, I am saying that the levitation aspect of Senbonzakura(well not the levitation, mroeos the control over each blade) is something Byakuya achieved through manipulation of reiryoku rather than an inherent power of the Zanpakuto just as Renji can disassemble his Bankai.

:whoabunny Welcome back to the Bleach section Melo :amuse

kkck
October 20, 2009, 06:36 PM
Just a note: I used the term reiatsu(spiritual pressure), when I was in fact speaking of reiryoku(spirit energy)

Anyhow, here's the thing, a Zanpakuto is the physical manifestation of a shinigami's reiryoku. Therefore, I believe any manipulation of a given power of the Zanpakuto is indirectly a manipulation of a person's reiryoku.

For example, for Renji to extend Zabimaru, he would simply needs to manipulate his reiryoku in a way which would make the blade react and extend(as there is no physical button or other method used to really accomplish this). His Bankai is an even better example as it is held together by his reiryoku so he has direct manipulation of that through his spiritual energy.

How about Yamamoto? He can literally spew fire in a given shape. For example, his Jokaku Enjo attack makes a dome around a target. How does he do that if not by manipulation of his Zanpakuto's fire(and by extension of his own reiryoku)?

Same with Hitsugaya: he manipulates reiryoku to produce ice from water through his Hyourinmaru.

So in a sense, I'm asserting that manipulation and use of a Zanpakuto is simply a manipulation and use of reiryoku(through the Zanpakuto) as a Zanpakuto is a physical manifestation of reiryoku.

Of course, the nature of the Zanpakuto delimits what can and cannot be done with the person's reiryoku(ex: Hitsugaya cannot will Hyourinmaru to launch fire as that is not the nature of his own reiryoku).

Also, by the extension of this premise, Byakuya cannot control anything else in the way he controls Senbonzakura since Senbonzakura is a manifestation of his own reiryoku. Just as you can mold your reiryoku into a pressure, he molds his(Senbonzakura) into whatever he likes(as is the power of his Zanpakuto).

So yes, I am saying that the levitation aspect of Senbonzakura(well not the levitation, mroeos the control over each blade) is something Byakuya achieved through manipulation of reiryoku rather than an inherent power of the Zanpakuto just as Renji can disassemble his Bankai.

:whoabunny Welcome back to the Bleach section Melo :amuse

Now we got into the territory of speculation lol. Truth is we can't really prove that point either way lol. I would think the simpler and more logical explanation is that senbonsakura moves not because of a foreign ability byakuya uses(which would pretty much be a kido on byakuya's part right?) but because of an inherent ability it processes and is controlled by byakuya. Making the ability to manipulate the blades a trick byakuya himself developed would mean that when he first released his sword it was essentially useless. What good is a sword whose only ability is to dissolve into a thousand immobile petals(technically byakuya would have resolved that by the method you explained but his zampakuto would have still been useless originally)? I think we have little to no reason to actually believe the moving thing the petals do is not an inherent thing to the sword....

Forever_Melody
October 20, 2009, 07:03 PM
Now we got into the territory of speculation lol. Truth is we can't really prove that point either way lol. I would think the simpler and more logical explanation is that senbonsakura moves not because of a foreign ability byakuya uses(which would pretty much be a kido on byakuya's part right?) but because of an inherent ability it processes and is controlled by byakuya. Making the ability to manipulate the blades a trick byakuya himself developed would mean that when he first released his sword it was essentially useless. What good is a sword whose only ability is to dissolve into a thousand immobile petals(technically byakuya would have resolved that by the method you explained but his zampakuto would have still been useless originally)? I think we have little to no reason to actually believe the moving thing the petals do is not an inherent thing to the sword....
I don't think it'd have been useless as he could've dispersed them with his reiryoku, but simply been initially been unable to pinpoint them where he wanted. Remember when he first used his Bankai against Renji? He just unleashed it and it flew and sliced everything inclding Renji and the buildings.

As I've said, Ikkaku's Bankai has a similar type of floating property to it ad nobody has any trouble classifying it as melee. I'd even go as far as to say it's subconsciously controlled by Ikkaku himself as the floating property no longer applies when Ikkaku jumps up in the air(if it was just supposed to always float behind him, why didn't it when he jumped?) so in the future he too might be able to control each individual segment of his Bankai.

Anyhow, I think we should simply agree to disagree because the manga really doesn't bother to make any distinctions between classes of Zanpakuto.

Yans86
May 27, 2010, 07:30 AM
This thread should be upgraded cause Gin has just shown that he is beyond this 3...

Smerten
May 27, 2010, 02:01 PM
I seriously don't understand how Kenpachi got that many votes. It's about the zanpakuto, not the one who wields it. Kenpachi is badass, but his zan hasn't shown any abilities because Kenny acts like an ass to it. He never paid any attention to his zanpakuto and he never will, that's his uniqueness and that's why it hasn't shown abilities and why it will NEVER reach bankai. So there, zanpakuto wise it would be the weakest of the three, period. Unless we suddenly knew it's ability and as stated earlier that will never happen. Unless Kubo enjoys raping his own characters.

And between Ikkaku and Byakuya's zanpakuto, I'd say Byakuya. Sure, Hozukimaru may posess more brute strength, but Senbonzakura posesses a lot more diversity, flexibility and thus possibilities. It's just way more efficient.

Kaiten
May 28, 2010, 11:59 AM
Well, it's between a character who's not that popular, Kenny, and a character who doesn't even have a melee zan. Of course Kenny will win. :tem

Stay tuned. I'll see if I can get an update and make a better poll.

Smerten
May 28, 2010, 04:47 PM
I'm still of the opinion that Byakuya's zan is melee based, but enfin.

Maybe kenpachi's zanpakutoh isn't melee based, were it's power revealed. In the extremely off-chance that he DOES learn to fight together with the zanpakuto, I would laugh my @ss off if it turns out to be a kido type. Just imagine kenpachi's face.

Kaiten
May 28, 2010, 05:56 PM
Hermie stripped the old pole, I added a new one. I set melee types as the zan's that are generally used as traditional weapons; slashing, stabbing, piercing, thrusting, etc. I left Rangiku and Byakuya off since their zan are solely reliant on an otherworldly power. I left off a few like Sasakibe and Isane who may have melee types but once released never actually used shikai.

I put Gin's Shinso as my favorite melee type. The versatility of size and extreme speed are amazing. In shikai he can stab or slice big targets from a distance as seen with Jidanbou and the hollow from Renji, Momo, and Kira's training in the real world. Once Kamishini no Yari is released he has the ungodly size to attack from a distance, particularly deadly against large opponents that don't require much aim or if sniping an opponent who can't see him. At close range the ungodly speed can overwhelm an opponent in a duel. Those short 500 x the speed of sound thrusts would keep even a captain class opponent on their heels.

Eddy01741
May 28, 2010, 10:44 PM
Right now I would say that Gin has the most powerful melee type zan. It extends and retracts at many times the speed of sound, can extend 13 kilometers, and can be used like a gatling gun.

Obviously Ichigo will have the most powerful zan in the end. Although his is kinda half-melee half-kidou based (bankai gives a boost to speed and compresses his power, but also yields a stronger getsuga tenshou). But right now, it's weaksauce compared to Gin's "god killing spear".

One that I like a lot that I know isn't all that strong (yet) is Hisagi's Kazeshini, as it's good up close and far away, and is unpredictable.

Richo
June 02, 2010, 08:09 AM
if with attack based zanpaktou you mean based on actual physical attributes there is only 1 zanpaktou that would realy qualify: Ikkaku's houzukimaru
houzukimaru only increases the physical strenght of ikkaku and augments his skills in close combat. This also is the only zanpaktou that increases the physical strenght of its wielder.
the second and third place go to Ichigo's Zangetsu and Renji's Zabimaru.
Both ichigo and renji their zanpaktou are based on their own physical strenght, while ichigo relies more on speed then strenght.
Komamura's Tenken doesnt rely on its user own strenght, however i dont claim komamura isnt strong. I wouldnt put his Tenken into a physical/attack power based zanpaktou.

since the thread changed abit it seems i have to change my statement~~

The strongest melee based zanpaktou, based on its own a abilities, skills and potential and taking out the owner using it.

Hōzukimaru (owned by Ikkaku Madarame)
A true melee based zanpaktou with a slight increase in range in shikai and bankai. It has no real special abilities besides that it increases the fighting potential of its user.

Zabimaru (owned by Renji Abarai)
A melee based zanpaktou that increases the range of its user, making it possible for the user to attack multiply targets at greater distances, its bankai only increases the size and power/potential

Shinsō (owned by Ichimar Gin)
A melee based zanpaktou thats based on the extension and the speed of its extension to impale its target.
bankai improves all features of it.

Tenken (owned by Sajin Komamura)
I have to retract my words about this zanpaktou not being truly melee. Tenken is more like a Hakudo based zanpaktou where the wielder attacks it target with sword or any other body part and Tenken deals a second attack with seemingly amplified damage

Zangetsu (owned by Kurosaki Ichigo)
1 of the few short range melee zanpaktou around. Its shikai increases the damage and its range only slightly, it focus is purely strenght to cut through a target. Its bankai decreases the size significantly and compresses its shikai power in a smaller blade thus increasing the speed it can swung.

my vote to best melee based zanpaktou is Shinsō (owned by Ichimaru Gin)

Cyber34
July 01, 2010, 07:24 PM
Going off of facts provided by the manga Ichigo does, but if it wasn't for him then Gin has the strongest. It's fast and can reach a long distance in a short amount of time, practically a perfect sword for assasination as shown by what he did to Hiyori. As for the other Zanpakutou mentioned, their abilities are limited and lacking in power.

Hystzen
July 02, 2010, 11:29 AM
i would put forward that Kiras zan is perfect melee type ... it shaped for be-heading and it has a wieght counter on it ...that is perfect melee sword

Kaiten
July 04, 2010, 09:02 PM
I forgot about Kira's. For all the magic properties, doubling the weight of whatever it strikes, it is still used as a regular, non magical sword. Kind of in between. Still, one of my favorite zan.

igotthegoods
July 04, 2010, 09:45 PM
Added Kira to the poll in case anyone wants to vote for him even though it's kind of a half-melee type. The reverse guillotine property of it is cool enough to make it on there, imo. :p To me, it may not be the strongest melee zan, but when used this way it's still pretty badass and Kira's found an ingenious way to use its shape to his advantage. If used correctly, it's a sure-fire kill every time.

Richo
July 05, 2010, 06:07 AM
i would put forward that Kiras zan is perfect melee type ... it shaped for be-heading and it has a wieght counter on it ...that is perfect melee sword

I forgot about kira his zanpaktou, while it is partialy melee and partialy kidou based (special ability) I did not take it into account for my vote, then again Tenken should not be either then. Anyway Kira his wabisuke is the perfect counter against any melee based zanpaktou, but it will lose to any other zanpaktou that does not depend on melee fighting (rangiku and byakuya with their huge amount of "blades" to fight). Kira has proven to be a excelent fighter himself and is well balanced in the shinigami arts and if his shikai does not work his knowledge of kidou will likely make up for it (remember Kira was the only one who faced as a fraccion of barragan and came out nearly unscratched where most of the other VC or below were gravely injured or nearly dead)

kkck
July 05, 2010, 02:26 PM
I don't think kira's zampakuto counts as melee. It has a reversed blade, meaning without it's ability it does not really work in melee at all.... It's ability is nothing but kidoish.

exacta
July 05, 2010, 02:41 PM
I think Love should be added to the poll, especially if a zanpakuto like Wabisuke counts. That cudgel was ill. It's true that it can fire off fireballs, but Ichigo also as a projectile and his counts on the poll.

Kaiten
July 05, 2010, 04:39 PM
I don't think kira's zampakuto counts as melee. It has a reversed blade, meaning without it's ability it does not really work in melee at all.... It's ability is nothing but kidoish.

It's partially melee. Since it requires contact for him to weigh down his opponent he uses Wabasuke like a traditional weapon, maybe more club than sword, until he can decapitate his opponent.

poobert
July 07, 2010, 03:21 PM
I think Love should be added to the poll, especially if a zanpakuto like Wabisuke counts. That cudgel was ill. It's true that it can fire off fireballs, but Ichigo also as a projectile and his counts on the poll.

I am actually thinking the opposite. Maybe Ichigo and Renji and Wabisuke should be taken off the list (and Isshin and engetsu if he was on it).

Ichigo's sword is similar in principle to Rose and Hinamori.
Renji's shikai is fine (like Gin's) but his bankai is like Love's whip.
Wabisuke is almost like Sakanade and KS. Essentially a melee weapon with a hax skill attached that is not quite kido. The point being wabisuke's main skill is the weight gain, like sakanade's main skill is reversal. It is not mainly used for its melee prowess (to the point that it was mentioned to be a peculiar shape for combat).

The rest of the list are pure physical melee weapons. Their special ability only improves their own melee combat ability. Gin's improves range and speed, Tenken improves reach and power. Kazeshini makes the weapon unpredictable. None of them have a weird wabisuke like ability nor do they fire energy blasts.

My vote goes to Gin. His sword is deadly and I think the speed and reach are better in combat than pure power that some others give.

kkck
July 07, 2010, 03:26 PM
It's partially melee. Since it requires contact for him to weigh down his opponent he uses Wabasuke like a traditional weapon, maybe more club than sword, until he can decapitate his opponent.

I was always under the understanding that a melee type zampakuto was one inherently devoid of special abilities or anything of the sort. In that sense, kira's cannot be a melee type simply due to having an ability. That'd mean the number of melee type zampakutos is rather limited though. Only ikkaku's, renji's and hisagi's would be there. If kira's is allowed to be here, then there really is no plausible reason to exclude any plausible zampakuto since most of them actually have melee applications and a special ability.....

Darth Executor
July 07, 2010, 06:05 PM
kenpachi. dude's a captain who owns other captains and espada and doesn't even need to release his sword (or know how, which is rather trivial).
[hr]

I was always under the understanding that a melee type zampakuto was one inherently devoid of special abilities or anything of the sort. In that sense, kira's cannot be a melee type simply due to having an ability. That'd mean the number of melee type zampakutos is rather limited though. Only ikkaku's, renji's and hisagi's would be there. If kira's is allowed to be here, then there really is no plausible reason to exclude any plausible zampakuto since most of them actually have melee applications and a special ability.....

Actually there is, because kira's ability only works in melee. Others may have melee applications but they're not limited to melee like his is. I think Ichigo's should be disallowed on account of the fact that getsuga tenshou is not a melee attack.

Hystzen
July 07, 2010, 06:07 PM
kira has to land a strike it doesnt exactly fire out fireballs or something like kido zans.

and the shape of the zan also shows it built for melee...it is the perfect melee zan it be hard to find someone who would be affected by it apart from Rangiku n Byakuya.

kkck
July 08, 2010, 09:23 AM
kira has to land a strike it doesnt exactly fire out fireballs or something like kido zans.

and the shape of the zan also shows it built for melee...it is the perfect melee zan it be hard to find someone who would be affected by it apart from Rangiku n Byakuya.

I can´t imagine how kira´s zampakuto can be said to be built for melee. Quite frankly, in a melee fight it´d be the most useless zampakuto around. It has a shape which is by no means practical nor even vaguely resembles something useful. It has a reversed blade meaning the only plausible way for him to kill someone in melee is to go apeshit on him as if his sword was a pipe, which is obviously hardly convenient. The only scenario under which his sword has some use or purpose is that he managed to use his ability and his enemy bows down to him. In other words, the shape or his sword is exclusively meant to be used solely in conjunction with his ability. Kira´s sword without its ability is about as useless as it gets, he´d even be better off with any other plausible blunt object. Kira certainly does not shot fire or throws chunks of heaven at people but his ability is certainly kido type and his zampakuto is only worth something when he uses said ability. Seriously, how can a zampakuto which does not even deserve to be called worthless without its ability be considered anything but kido type? Saying that kira has to make contact to use his ability makes his zampakuto is a melee type is like saying yumichika´s or hinamori´s zampakuto are also melee because they have to be swing by their users or have a vaguely physical effect on the enemy.

Darth Executor
July 08, 2010, 11:22 AM
I can´t imagine how kira´s zampakuto can be said to be built for melee.

Because much like other melee zampakuto, it only has melee effects. While other melee zampakuto just add damage or speed or range to their master's attacks, his gimp the enemy. I dunno why you're having so much difficulty with it. Think of it as an assassin's poisoned dagger rather than a barbarian's battle axe. Nobody would say the dagger isn't melee just because it may have another effect on whatever you're stabbing. Melee does not have to mean brute force.

kkck
July 08, 2010, 01:04 PM
Because much like other melee zampakuto, it only has melee effects. While other melee zampakuto just add damage or speed or range to their master's attacks, his gimp the enemy. I dunno why you're having so much difficulty with it. Think of it as an assassin's poisoned dagger rather than a barbarian's battle axe. Nobody would say the dagger isn't melee just because it may have another effect on whatever you're stabbing. Melee does not have to mean brute force.

I don't think poison can be compared to magically increasing the weight of whatever is hit.... Increasing the weight of whatever is hit is not a melee effect nor the direct effect of brawling, it is obviously a kido related ability. That, and considering the usefulness of kira's zampakuto without that ability (it'd be better to not release at all), then it is pretty clear kira's zampakuto is not a melee type. Just because fire does not come out of it or because you can use it to go apeshit on the enemy as with a pipe does not make it melee(you don't even need a zampakuto for that). The standard for whether a sword is melee or not should be whether the sword has or not special abilities. If it has special abilities then it is a kido type. If it does not then it is a melee type. It's not like kira's is a melee type weapon with melee applications... It is 100% dependent on the ability so it can't even be considered something like ichigo's zampakuto (which is actually useful without GT).